How Propaganda Works

Propaganda, a persuasion tactic typically associated with deception, has been around for centuries. Explore the history of propaganda -- and learn how to spot it -- in this podcast from HowStuffWorks.com.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Chuck Bryant's with me as usual.
As a matter of fact, I don't know what I
do If Chuck Bryant wasn't with me, I'd probably curl
up in the fetal position in the corner and cry

(00:22):
myself to sleep. I think you'd be just fine. I
don't know, Chuck. I don't ever want to find out. Chuck. Well, thanks,
almost didn't make it today. Why what's going on with you?
I was out last night. I went out and saw
Matt's band. As you know, Matt Frederick are handsome young
stand in producer. Yeah, Matt Frederick of Stuff of Genius
fame and awesome new video podcasts. We should mention, Chuck.

(00:45):
It's really good. You guys should check that out, Stuff
of Genius. It's it's a video podcast video and it's
cool and it has a little like Monty Python esque animation.
I like it. Yeah, And we don't want to hear
any of this. I don't have time to watch that
crap because it's like a minute forty two tops. Yeah,
it's quick. Yeah. But went and saw his band last night,
Lions and Scissors. Yeah, good stuff, And I wanted to
say that they have a MySpace page and it's good

(01:06):
music if you're into its very shoegaze, yeah, mag wise
good is sort of a radio heady component at times.
Explosions in the sky you ever heard of them? I
have a big wall of sound, loud, my ears are ringing,
and I'm slightly tired and imbibed a bit too much.
But that was my night. That's Chuck's Thursday, everybody, So

(01:28):
keep rocking, Matt. We love it. Yeah, way to go, Matt.
So can we get back to our podcast now? Maybe? Yeah,
But I just wanted to give give you a hard time.
I think you're a good guy for doing that. Talented drummer,
great drummer. Okay, So, Chuck, you grew up in the
Cold War, right, it's pretty funny, jerk you did. You're

(01:49):
a Cold War baby like me. I'm a Cold War kid.
Isn't it weird to think we actually work with people who,
like weren't cognizant that, you know, the Soviets had nukes
pointed at us at all times and vice versa. Yeah,
that is weird to me. Yeah, but um yeah, I
remember being particularly unnerved from time to time that like, dude,
eventually they're going to come over and or our missile

(02:10):
is going to be sent over, and that's that, you know.
I think I can't help but think that we were
definitely shaped, our personalities were shaped by that underlying, constant
level of paranoia that we grew up with. You well
in the movies, uh, a lot, a lot of great
Cold war movies of that era, but the Roosky is
out to get us? Yeah, well, do you remember the
movie Rooskis? Was there one called? It was actually a

(02:32):
counter propaganda movie where a bunch of kids that were
probably my age you would have been, like, you know,
twenty by then. Um, where I think they found a
Russian sailor who washed ashore and they had to hide
them because of course, you know, the government would shoot
him in the head if they found him. And they
came to learn that the Soviets have hearts too, they

(02:53):
know how to love. Was it a real movie? Like, yeah,
it wasn't very good, but it was somebody actually put
out the effort to say, you know, hey, we're all
just people here, you know. Um, And what they were
doing actually was counter propaganda, right, Like all the that
was right off the cuff, two pounds um, all of
the all the stuff we were told, I would say,

(03:15):
at least the vast majority of it was lopsided at best.
Like do you remember what did you think of the
Russians when you were growing up? That they were like
they cut your throat just as soon as look at you,
And they were always standing in these horrible breadlines, and
like every single one of them wanted to escape, but
the Russian government wouldn't let her. They wanted up toilet papers.
They heard stories about they don't have blue jeans and

(03:35):
they don't have toilets. Yeah, like you could get you know,
five wives with the single pair of jeans if you
wouldn't ever the kind of thing. Yeah, well, I remember
when the Iron curtain fell and like actual news started
coming out of the the former USSR states that I
remember thinking, oh, yeah, what a surprise. All of that
was lies And they're actually kind of nice folks by

(03:56):
and large. I'm not saying that they weren't trying to
do bad things. When we were trying to do bad things. Well, no,
I think that that was the Russian people were good
people that came that. That's what I figured out when
the propaganda ended, the Cold War propaganda ended so abruptly,
is that we're all people like the average Russian is
like the average American at heart, with the same dreams, goals, aspirations,
same things that Kim or her. You know, it's the

(04:17):
same thing. And we didn't want our stockpiles of weapons
pointed in their direction either. You know, you're average American
probably didn't know, certainly not I didn't either. Let's just
get along, all right, So, Chuck, what we're talking about
clearly is propaganda, right, which in just that word, A
very smart person once said, um that propaganda is not
a dirty word, and it didn't end with the Cold War,

(04:39):
and that's actually true. But propaganda still has horrible connotations
just the word itself, right, I mean, it elicits images
of like brainwashed mass and that's it's definitely the case
in most cases when it comes to propaganda. But there's
a classical, more classical definition of propaganda, and essentially, Um,

(05:00):
it's that it's simply a tool for persuasive arguments, Um,
that use facts and beliefs, but omit facts and beliefs
that that would persuade people to the other side of
the argument, right. It's it's accentuating the positive in a way,
and you never talked about the negative side of the things. Right,
So it's sort of like Facebook, it is. It's very

(05:21):
much like Facebook. Um. I figured out that, um through
reading this article how propaganda works. That technically the truth campaign,
you know, to to get people to quit smoking comcials,
that's propaganda because they omit the fact that cigarettes make
you alive with pleasure and flavor country. Right, So it's

(05:42):
that's a little bit of both. I'm not sure we
should say the brands because I'm pretty sure Big Tobacco
would sue our parents. And you're right, you've come a
long way, nice chuck, Um. So yes, But the the
main hallmark of propaganda is that it includes omissions of facts, right. Um.
And actually, the where where did the whole word come from?

(06:02):
You got any you got any info on that? Dude? Uh? Yeah,
started with religion way back, and it started, you know,
hundreds of years before it was officially coined. But in
sixteen twenty two, Pope Gregory was I need to work
in my room in new Pope Gregory fifteen established the
Congregation of Propaganda in sixty two, and that was basically

(06:25):
trying to win back Catholics who had taken up the
Protestant faith. Yeah, Martin Luther made a real damp in
the number of seats in the pews every Sunday. So
Pope Gregory formed the what was it, the Congregation of Propaganda. Um,
and they, oh you did say that, Holy cow man,
I gotta pay more attention. Basically, this Congregation of Propaganda,

(06:46):
you know, one Catholics back by pointing out that anyone
who doesn't take communion every week as a loser. And
it worked, it did, sure, I'm sure numbers increased. So
since then, you know, from that point until I don't know,
the nineteen forties, there was absolutely no propaganda whatsoever. That's
probably not true. No, you don't think that's okay. I
need to read a little more clearly World War One?

(07:08):
Are we talking? Are we're gonna go with the history now?
I don't think we should get to that party. I
think we should talk more about propaganda's implications. Right in
the article, you you read that there was an interview
with a guy named em Laine Bruner. Yeah, he's a
professor of what rhetoric at Georgia State. Yeah, I didn't
know that was such a thing. I didn't either, but
it's interesting for him. Um. But Brunner said that the

(07:32):
the distinction for him between good and bad propaganda was
whether or not, um, the the people perpetrating the propaganda
have the best interests of their audience at heart. Right, Yeah,
but that's subjective. I agree wholeheartedly. I take issue with
that because I think that it's up to the individual
to decide what his or her best interests, all right,

(07:54):
and to make the decision, you have to be fully informed. Well,
propaganda is based on an a mission of facts. You're
never fully informed when you're when you're being propagandized. Right,
So therefore there's no such thing as good propaganda. Sure,
you never see two both sides of the argument with propaganda, right, right,
So that's I don't think there is such a good
thing as I take issue. And he's a Georgia State.

(08:15):
He's not too far. Maybe we should hop on the
subway and go down him take issue with him. Yeah,
I want to take issue with this, professor, I got
some propaganda for you. Yeah. Uh, so, Chuck, how do
you how do you get propaganda? Cross, Well, there's a
lot of techniques actually, and these are pretty cool. And
I know that when people hear these are going to
be very familiar, maybe not with the name, but with

(08:37):
the result. Yeah. Um, name calling is a big one. Yeah.
I I found a poster I showed you. Um, it's
a takeoff on that Shepherd Ferry right Obama political poster,
but this one it's a slightly different picture. He has
his nose in the air and it says snob under.
It's actually pretty funny. Yeah, especially since you want it's

(08:57):
a lot funnier because he won, right Yeah uh yeah, true.
I guess that was done before he won. Yeah uh.
And you know, name calling is that's just typical playground stuff.
But they do it on large you know, on a
large scale. Grown men and women in the political spectrum
call people out. They'll they'll use names to uh, they'll

(09:18):
use names like terrorists and trader and like evil doers.
Stuff that nobody wants to be right. Not to pick
too much on George Bush, but when you throw down
words like access of evil and evil doers. That's propaganda
definitely form Yeah, it is, it is, and it makes
you wonder like what exactly is going on in Iran
right now? How much propaganda we're experiencing from that? Sure,

(09:40):
so that's one technique. Sure, you want to talk about
the bandwagon, Well, bandwagon is pretty simple. It's like get
on the winning side, dummy, you know, which is actually
that example mixed name calling and bandwagon. Nobody wants to
feel left out, and again this is pretty much a
playground technique, which is still come with us, then you're
and your other group, right, or you're gonna be left behind.
All your friends and neighbors are gonna be cooler than you,

(10:02):
smarter than you, richer than you, whatever, um. And you know,
everybody wants to be a part of something good, you know.
So yeah, basically with with the bandwagon technique, you're made
to feel like you can be a part of something
good if you join in, or be left behind if
you don't. You got it. Thanks. I like this one

(10:23):
a lot. The glittering generalities. Yeah, it's a great name. Yeah,
this is really common in political propaganda, and that's when
you combine words that have positive connotations the concept that
is beloved. So basically, no one's gonna come out and
denounce something that you call And I have another example,
and again not to put on pick on Bush, but
he was in office for eight years. There's a lot

(10:46):
of years. You know, there's a lot of recent things
you can point to, like the Patriot Act. Like anyone
who would come out and say, oh, the Patriot Act
is bad, then what you're not a patriot not supporting? Yeah,
But and the worst part is is it worked. Yeah,
although do you remember one of the original provisions was
basically to turn postal workers into spies, and the post

(11:08):
Office said, no, we're not going to do that, right,
and it got left out. But they wanted postal workers
to keep an eye on what was going on, to
report on communities and individual people, right, Yeah, So other
words you can use in the glittering general generalities or
words like liberty and dreams and family and you you
throw these words in there, and you know, God forbid

(11:29):
you step up and say something that's anti family just
because they tagged that name to it, right exactly, And
all all politicians do this. We're not we're not gonna
single things out. It happens all over the place on
both sides of the spectrum. Yeah, it's just that Bush
was in office for eight years, which I just said
you should listen. Cards stacking. Card stacking is exactly what

(11:52):
it sounds like. It's stacking. Uh, it's stacking the argument
in the favor of one side over another. Right. Um,
and again this is the is the one that where
fact emission really comes into play, you know. Um And
and it's most often seen in political campaigns where you know,
one candidate is like Broadwater. Have you ever seen Ali
g Yeah, did you ever see the barat where he

(12:14):
follows around that candidate, Jim Broadwater. It's hilarious. At one point,
he tells a voter that Broadwater is talking to that
if you do not vote for Broadwater, Broadwater will take power.
It's hilarious. And he compares him to Stalin. Yeah, and
this is is poor you know Republican guys running for
city councilmen. But yeah, have Betty last you didn't? He

(12:36):
I don't know, I'd like to find that out. But yeah.
Card stacking is basically just um saying, here's our candidates great,
great attributes, leaving out any bad stuff. Well, details and
statistics too, Like they'll throw out legitimate studies, but studies
that don't mention the other study that can point out
the exact opposite. Nice point, Chuck, card stacking like Facebook, Yeah,

(12:59):
it's exactly. And then it is my favorite fear. That's
a big one. So, Chuck, say we were to point
out that the guys who host tech stuff uh steal
babies in America and then sell them to human traffickers
in the Balkans. You're saying that Jonathan Strickland and Chris

(13:19):
Puette would do that. I'm just saying I've heard things,
So I mean, don't you think would be a good
idea to not listen to their podcast and all the
people who are tech stuff fans maybe come over and
listen to us instead, because we certainly don't steal babies
and we would never sell any to human traffickers if
we did. That's spaganda. Great example, Josh, thanks, of course,

(13:40):
we have to do them on the tech Stuff podcast
so they'd hear it. Yeah, good point. Uh, subliminal subliminal messaging.
I'm sorry I should say it. Subliminally subliminal messaging. Huh.
I feel like doing your bidding all of a sudden exactly,
and that is, uh, that's one of the oldest tricks
in the book. And that's basically images and whip. Yeah,

(14:03):
it's oldest drick in the book. Now it's you know
how it is. It's images and words that are so
quick and abstract that you don't consciously recognize it. Again,
we keep going back to politics because it's just so
obvious with politics. But at any campaign poster for anyone,
from it somebody running for school board to somebody running
for president, they always have red, white and blue in them.

(14:23):
They'll often have a star or the the there there'll
be a wavy graphic that's kind of reminiscent of a flag.
And none of these things are concrete like that that
you never see the candidate dress as a statue of liberty.
They're actually wrapped in a flag. It's a little more
subtle than that, but it has the same effect. Obama
symbol was exactly like that. The one that they designed.

(14:44):
It was kind of looked like the wavy flag in
the circle. It makes the Owen snob, It doesn't it does.
I'll show you more closely. But yeah, so, and actually
a really good way to kind of pick out this
kind of propaganda. What it's called transfer, right, um, is
to pretend you're from another country. Right, so all of

(15:07):
a sudden that wave, what's that wave for? Or what's
that star for? Like stuff we just take for granted
that immediately because in our neurons are like patriot, patriot,
you know, Um, if you imagine you're from another country,
suddenly you deconstruct these abstract images and it seems a
little clunky, clumsy, doesn't have the same effect. What these

(15:27):
way they star exactly in Soviet Russia, wavy star doesn't
understand you. That's good, thank you that what do? What
happened to that guy? And then lastly there's plain folks propaganda,
which is kind of weak. Actually, yeah, that didn't. That
didn't strike me as propaganda when I read it, like
kind of the politician trying to seem like your average ordinary,

(15:49):
you know, next door neighbor American. Um, I guess it's
propaganda if the article says so, But it never struck
me as that. Well, technically it is, because it's an
omission of fact. So you know, if they sure the
candidate loves fishing, but is he really fishing in some
rinky dink rowboat that he rented from like a local fisherman.
Or is he on like an eight foot yacht, you know,

(16:10):
using babies that he bought off the tech stuff guys
bait or or what did they set up some you
know TV commercial where they did take him to that
farm in the rinky dink rowboat and said, hey, excellent
points with you for five most decidedly propaganda. Yeah, so yeah, plane, folks,
is propaganda to and Chuck. The more you start looking
or thinking about propaganda, the more you realize it is

(16:33):
everywhere it is, Chuck, how well it's it's it's where
you would expect it to be, which is in print,
on the internet, TV, radio, movies, you name it. Like
I was talking about with the with the eighties movies
and the Cold War, I mean every every action movie
that came out, the Russians were the enemy pretty much,

(16:53):
and then kind of later on it became Middle Easterners
were the enemy. Like look who Rambo fought and who
Rocky thought. Those were prime examples the Russian. But he
helped the mujah hadein a k a. The Taliban. He
did what in uh one of the Rambo movies the
third Rambo movie. He and at the very end it's
they said that they dedicated the movie to the muja

(17:14):
Hadean freedom fighters and the mujah Hadein who we were
funding to help fight the Russians in Afghanistan turned into
the Taliban won. What Chuck Norris is not happy about
that at all. He's been after still long since in
right and show a thing or two? Yeah, so apparently, Um,
according to one of the uh the the professor's interviewed

(17:36):
in this article, UM, broadcast media like radio or TV
is the most dangerous propaganda medium because people tend to
believe it. Well, not just that there's no discourse, it's
all one sided. It's all here you ingest this. And
also it's it's much it's very entertaining. You know, your

(17:57):
average TV shows usually more entertain aiming then your average
AP news article. Yeah that's true, you know what I mean.
But ironically it's the AP news articles that are generally
the least propagandic. Yeah, you're right, because you think about
it's like fact fact fact, fact fact quote fact quack. Yes,
that's that's actually a quote in a fact quack. Um,

(18:19):
and then um, that's it, right, there's not. It's pretty
bare bones. I like those political commercials. Those are great.
Which one, you know, the big time propaganda where they're
where they're you know, this candidate, your family, stuff like that.
Do you remember the phone ringing one? I think it
was a Clinton add against Obama. It was one of

(18:40):
the last ones she ran during the primary, and it
was just a phone ringing. Is that when the phone,
when the phone rings in the middle of the night,
who do you want as president to answer it? Something
like that? Right, Yeah, that's that's definitely fear propagandia. Yeah.
Those crack me up, though, I mean the people that
buy into those, that's what scares me. The commerce themselves.
I get a kick out of it. I think it's hysterical.

(19:02):
Yeah that anyone wouldn't say this is so one sided.
It's what's mind bogglingly frightening is that it actually works
on some people, so um chuck. Propagana also sometimes is
not necessarily contrived. It just kind of comes out. Like
I spent a few years as a journalist, right and
I realized that it is really easy for your beliefs

(19:25):
to creep into a story. It doesn't matter whether it's
a story about somebody who just turned a hundred or um,
you know about the war in a rock is as
unbiased as you try to be, it's impossible to be
totally objective. Right in this very podcast. We get taken
to task occasionally by people that think we're communist, communists,

(19:47):
anti religious, sexist, Bommy worshippers, that kind of thing. But
we're not any of those things. No, not really, And
if we are, we're sure not aware of it anyway.
But you know, your belief system informs your outlook, right,
so you know, just the very position you're taking, just
the very approach to an article, there's eighty hundred countless
different ways to approach an article. The one you choose,

(20:10):
even if you're trying to be objective, that's a choice
that's a bias right out of the gate. And you're
gonna choose the one that you identify with that you
understand more. Yeah, so again, I mean, I guess what
I'm trying to say is, if you're getting news, only
get it from a p not a bad idea. Thank you, Chuck.
You want to move along, uh different types of propaganda, Well,
let let's talk about the internet real quick, because I

(20:32):
find this interesting. The Internet actually has the potential to
totally undermine traditional propaganda, right, So well, think about it, like,
if broadcast programming is the most dangerous form propaganda because
there's no feedback, then the Internet would be the least
dangerous form because there's nothing but feedback. Social media has
just opened the Internet up to everybody in any crack

(20:54):
pot normal person saint can put this stuff on the
Internet and and get opposing viewpoints out there, so you
can conceivably just be a fully informed person to make
your own decisions, which completely undermines um propaganda, right right.
The problem is, you know, facts spreading lightning fast just

(21:18):
as much as that undermines propaganda. Um, uninformed ideas or
facts that aren't really facts can spread just as quickly,
and that helps propaganda. So yeah, and the Internet is
just rife with that kind of time. What my solution,
Snopes dot com. Yeah, they're pretty good. So let's talk
about the different types of propaganda and wrap this puppy

(21:38):
up like a Christmas president. Religious propaganda was kind of
where it all began, like we said earlier, and uh,
missionaries yeah, for centuries have been uh even and they've
been traveling to other countries trying to recruit others to
their to their faith. And this is a form of

(21:59):
propaganda pamphlets and the posters that they hand out, and
and we're not saying that they're bad people and that
they're spreading lies. What we're saying is that's a form
of propaganda when you only evangelize the one side of
the coin, and they do when you go to these
countries tell people that this is the answer right here. Well,
you can also make the case that another kind of

(22:19):
propaganda the article points out, but doesn't join to religion,
thought reform. There's actually a form of religious propaganda as well.
You know, if you're running around worshiping like a d
deities and the Christians come along and say, no, no,
there's just one, we're monotheistic. Now, that's thought reform, right right, Yeah,
although you know generally they don't give up kool aid

(22:41):
that's laced with sinide. Now that that's a very cult
But you know, all those those types of political religious,
well especially political and religious propaganda, they kind of um
underscore our divisive nature, right like us versus them. And
actually took an anthropology us once in college and the
professor challenged us to go a day, just one day,

(23:05):
without using the words us or them or any variation
on that theme. And I defy you to do it successfully.
You can't start now the day's half over. You have
to start tomorrow. Just those two words. You can say,
we know no variation on the theme of us in
us or them. Try it. It's tough. I'm gonna forget
about that as soon as I leave this, yes studio check.

(23:29):
The big one, though, of all of them, is government propaganda,
right right, which is illegal since nightficially, and if you
think about it, that government propaganda is taxpayers paying to
be brainwashed, which is why it should be illegal, right yeah,
And it has been since technically, but w Mr Bush

(23:50):
in two thousand five actually signed the Stop Government Propaganda
Now Bill to UH to keep some like blatant outright
acts of propaganda commit by government agencies, like when you
pay television reporters to skew a message like planting stories,
planting stories exactly. Yeah. And it also established some that

(24:10):
audio in printed press communication state who the agency is
that funded it, like paid for by blah blah blah
blah blah, that kind of thing, And we we see
government propaganda, most prominently during times of war, right like
Hitler and the Nazis were masters of propaganda. He was
the king of propaganda in world history, I think. Yeah,

(24:32):
he cut Germany off from the outside world. He sold
radios for next to nothing. I think he was driving
around in the back of a truck selling him. He
made sure the prices were loft so every German could
afford one, so they could tune into his radio addresses
and and hear how great they were and how awful
the Jews and everybody else was. Uh, and and the

(24:53):
portrayal of what was going on, like Germans living in
the in other parts of the world were being abused
at the hands of their host countries and things like that. Um,
And it was effective. Yeah. And they also made movies,
the famous Nazi propaganda movies where they, you know, made
out Jews to be rats and Hitler to be godlike
and it was And they didn't like the Gypsies much either,

(25:16):
or Gays or Catholics. Yeah. Yeah, you forget sometimes you
know that it wasn't just the Jews that were persecuted
in the Holocaust. There's a lot of other groups. Yeah.
And here in the US here state side we had
our own propaganda as well. And also we should say
um on our very enjoyable sister podcast stuf you missed

(25:36):
in history class, They actually did an entire podcast on
the Nazi propaganda machinery. Yeah, yeah they should. People should
check that out. You can get that on iTunes too.
But again, state side, we had our own propaganda, and
that's something that have become pop icons, right. Yes, and
World War two was when it really kicked up. Like
if you think of the famous Uncle Sam I want
you posters with Uncle Sam pointing trying to get young

(26:00):
American men to enlist in the army. Yeah, that was
new in the forties. Yeah, and that was a big,
big time propaganda posters were very effective back then. My
favorite I had two favorites. One of them is what
what which? One Rosie? Probably Rosie is pretty cool, um.
But there was one that had somebody riding in a
car by by by by himself and it said, um

(26:20):
when you it was for car pooling, right, ration gas
and stuff. When you ride alone, you ride with Hitler.
How great would it be to have one of those posters? Now,
I'm sure you can find at least a replica Yeah,
that's true. I mean that. That's the other thing about
him is they're like great art. Oh yeah, propaganda posters
have the best art. Yeah, I like that that that era.

(26:42):
The The other one I like is just I just
can't believe it, like that. These were up in in
on public display. Um during World War Two. There's a
Japanese soldier using the butt of his rifle to smack
an American pow in the chin, and it says, what
are you going to do about it? And below is

(27:03):
the answer. And the answer, according to this propaganda poster
is stay on the job until every murdering Jap is
wiped out. You're kidding. It even has a little Government
Office of Propaganda logo at the bottom. Look, I kid
you not. That's something else. Yeah, it's a little nuts.
So yeah, well you go a little overboard during times
of war. I liked Rosie the Riveter. That's who I

(27:24):
thought you were going to mention. Have you seen my
favorite mechanic as a woman over indicatory riff on that? Yeah?
Successfully too. Um Yeah, Rosie the Riveter was famous obviously
because women at the time during World War Two were
encouraged to help the war at home. On the home
front by working in the taking these factory jobs that

(27:45):
the men had to leave. And as she became like
an iconic character, and one of the posters read longing
won't bring him back sooner, get a war job. Yeah,
I love that. Yeah, it is. It's pretty cool that
I saw another one who was a woman holding a
giant key and it's a food ration ng is the
key to the war effort. And and actually that was
one of the things that I don't think you could

(28:07):
predict that came out of propaganda was um, women suddenly
were uh put into their proper position of power. They
were elevated to that that kind of power. They were
no longer the mirror little houndsewives. They were empowered to
like actually help with the war effort, get a war job,
or to um food ration food or do whatever. They

(28:30):
suddenly had a role. And not just women but blacks
as well. There was a propaganda poster that said like
united we win and it was a black guy and
a white guy working side by side, decades before the
Civil rights movement. Yeah, so sometimes it's um it's foreshadowing
of social change and possibly even a mechanism of social
change that follows. Whatever the the the issue is it's
being propagandized. I think definitely in the case of women,

(28:52):
I think World two probably had a lot of good
benefits for women, kind of having a voice for the
first time, or not the first time, but probably a
really big, curly on voice for the first time. Yeah yeah,
um and Chuck, that's propaganda, baby. Yeah. You know. I
had a movie idea, script idea when I was during
my screenwriting days about a film student that gets um,

(29:15):
like he wins the big student film award and then
all of a sudden he gets whisked away by the
government to the secret Layer and they recruit young filmmakers
to the Ministry of Propaganda and like the moon landing
was fake and all these things have been faked or what.
We talked about that in another podcast. But this, yeah,
this kid gets caught up into making these movies that
are all faults and have the dog. Yeah. It's a

(29:36):
great one too. Yeah, sort of a riff on that
And I never wrote it, and I don't I'm not
going to. So if anyone out there's a screenwriter a
longs that idea, feel free, Yeah, just give a shout
out to Chuck at the premiere, right right, Yeah, so
again that's propaganda, that is right. So are we plugging
anything to We haven't add nothing, Holy cow. That means
we get to go right to listener mail Josh today.

(30:03):
I think we uh, since it would be appropriate to
talk about Molly Orshansky. Yeah, are less subject matter there.
We were talking about the women in World War Two.
We were uh, and also we mentioned that we have
been called sexists and mommy worshipers. You want to read
the letter in question. Yes, we actually got a couple
of letters, um, one which we're going to read now,

(30:26):
and one that was kind of nasty and mean, and
we're not going to read that or we're not gonna
say that uh, nasty, mean person's name. But this one
was much more above board. Uh. This says you probably
have received a bunch of emails about this, but I
wanted to let you know that Molly or Shansky is
a woman. If you recall, she is a woman who
developed the poverty line. But in your podcast how much

(30:47):
money do I Really Need to live? You referenced ms.
Orshansky as a heat as a female graduate student of
public policy with a specialization in poverty. I was so
excited to hear you mentioned a woman who was so
influential to the field. But then I was stremely disappointed
when you got the gender wrong. Obviously she had a
right to be and I hope you make this correction
on your podcast. And that comes from Cheryl Master in

(31:08):
public policy candidate at the John F. Kennedy School of
Government at Harvard University. And I wrote Cheryl back and
thanked her for being kind since we had gotten the
nasty letter calling its misogynistic freaks and it was a
big mistake. We were wrong, and the research that we
got actually referenced uh, Molly rus Chancey as a key

(31:29):
and so it wasn't some big assumption on our part
that it had to be a man. Great wait, Chuck, Chuck,
I've been thinking about this. I think at this point
we should make up a research team and lay this
hot in their feet. I don't think we should take
any responsibility to what spear you right? Right, So, Chuck Um,
it was our research team that really uh dropped the

(31:51):
ball on this one. It wasn't you or I We
were misinformed. We did We did not assume like a
couple of readers or listeners have thought that we didn't
assume that it is a man just because it was
some big college. It wasn't us at all that we
don't do that cut. But to make up for the
failings of our crack research team, who have been chastised,
um since we got this pointed out to us, well fired,
We fired them both. It's a different way of putting it.

(32:13):
In this economy, you want to stay chastised. We didn't
fire anyone. I'm just kidding. UM. So we did a
little research into Maali or Shansky. We found out that
she is dead. She died in April two thousand seven.
And she actually was quite a pioneer UM in her field.
She worked for the Social Security Administration from nineteen fifty
eight to nineteen eighty two, and uh, as historian Alice

(32:35):
O'Connor wrote in Poverty Knowledge, she was one of a
respected but mostly invisible cardro of women research professor professionals
based at Social Security Administration and other government agencies during
the postwar years. And I think that's part of the
part of the problem. I think, um, we as you
know thirty early thirty somethings, well, one of us is

(32:57):
in early thirty somethings in two thousand nine kind of
Um underestimated what women were allowed to do, I think
in the sixties. Right, that's fair enough. Sure so, because
you don't hear much about it. No, they were, no,
I know, and that is that is the travesty. And
I even thought, like when we were doing that podcast,

(33:18):
like Molly is a weird name for a guy. But
I did too. Still, I thought it was an Irish thing,
and I thought Mally Orshansky. I could see a guy
being named Molly or Chansky, right, So it was. It
was a mistake, I would say, much more notable or
noteworthy than being invisible, you know. But successful was that
she actually um has helped countless uh, impoverished people in

(33:40):
the United States absolutely by creating this poverty line, which
basically forces the government's hand into saying, Okay, if you're
below this, we're gonna help you, right uh. And this
is largely due to her work as a mathematician and statisticians.
True trailblazer. He was a great man. He was hats
off to you, Mr George Shansky. So if you want
to say, and checking emails, taking us to task, or

(34:02):
pointing out an error or just say hi. Whatever, gender confusion.
If you want to call us sexist mommy worshipers, whatever,
We accept all comers. You can send that to stuff
podcast at how stuff works dot com. For more on
this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works

(34:22):
dot com and be sure to check out this stuff
you Should Know blog on the house stuff works dot
com home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two
thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you