How TED Talks Work: Featuring Roman Mars

TED Talks have been around longer than you think. They became really popular once YouTube came along to bring their often inspirational messages to the world, 18 minutes at a time. In this episode, we interview an actual TED talker, the host of the 99% Invisible podcast, Roman Mars.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Tour Spring has sprung, everybody. This is Chuck and we
are hitting the road in April and May for some

(00:20):
live shows. If you live in Seattle, Portland, Houston, or Denver.
Those are the ones we have so far. We're gonna
add a couple of more though, the Neptune Theater on
April eighth in Seattle, Revolution Hall in Portland on April ninth,
and we're gonna take a little break and we're gonna
go to Houston on a Warehouse Live and then Denver, Colorado,

(00:41):
May twenty nine. It's a Sunday labor I'm sorry, Memorial
Day weekend at the Gothic Theater. And you can get
all the information for tickets at s y s K
live dot com and that is powered by square Space,
our buddies, and get this Seattle in Portland, you need
to get on it because tickets are going fast. It's
gonna sell out soon. Houston and Denver tickets are going

(01:03):
on sale this Friday, that would be tomorrow. And I
believe we're even having a pre sale for Denver today,
So I don't have that password yet, but if you
go to Facebook or Facebook page or s y s
K live dot com, we're gonna post the pre sale
password for today for Denver. We hope see you guys there.
We love you. Goodbye, Welcome to you Stuff you should

(01:26):
know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Sounded like Jonathan's Chickland.
Just then there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry Stuff
you should know in the house, Yes, sir, so Chuck.

(01:47):
Before we get started, I think we should make a
clarification here because we inadvertently offended some people on our
makeup episode. I mentioned that it was International Women's Day,
so it's not really a happy okay. I understand that.
I realized that. And it's not like we said, hey,
it's International Women's Day, what topics should we do? What topics?
Screams women fresh International Women's Day makeup. It wasn't like

(02:10):
that at all. We selected makeup. It was International Women's
Day and I didn't want it to go by unmarked yeah,
it was. It was completely coincidental. So we we didn't
mean to offend anyone. And uh I hopefully our track
record as UH feminists stands up. But um so may
a couple to all those who are offended. And you
know what, We're gonna do one on International Women's Day

(02:32):
and the Equal Rights Amendments. Yeah, next year for International
Women's Day, about International Women's Day, and maybe we'll do
the e r A before then. Yeah it sounds great. Okay, good,
good job, buddy. All right, so let's let's get started.
How you doing, man? I was talking to Jerry before
you came in about just life. There's a lot of life,

(02:53):
lots of stuff going on in every avenue. There's all
this planning, like we're like working on dates for stuff. Yeah,
I mean it's just like constant what going on. You're
gonna melt down? No, I'm not. I'm hanging in there,
and I'm doing so by saying, uh, you got a
pretty good brain trust in your brain? Good? I got Stanima,

(03:15):
Oh boy, I've got Stanman perfect. Well, there it is.
There's the crack in the dike. Everybody. I have a
crack in my brain today because if you remember we
were sent We mentioned the Crown Royal Rye whiskey off handedly.
Oh no, I know what your stories, and they sent

(03:35):
us six bottles of Crown Royal, and um, I got
into it last night. How many bottles? Oh? Not, I
didn't drink bottles? Please? Which one did you start with?
Did you start with the Northern rye? Well, I'd already
tried it. I still have not. No, I've been like
really holding everything together, so I haven't had time to
sit down and like really enjoy some rye. Yeah, I

(03:58):
tried the rye, but um, they also sent this single
malt the yeah, the x O. Uh well we got
two different ones. Really, we got the same Ryan, then
the same regular, and then each of us had a
different So you get a single, like a single malt whiskey,
single Mault Canadian whiskey. Nice. So I got into that

(04:18):
a little bit last night because I've been stressed and
now I'm I've got cobwebs. That's great, chunk. I was
googling at my desk earlier hangover blurred vision. Oh it's
that bad, just to make sure I wasn't like it,
didn't need to go to hospital for some condition. And
it said, Hey, don't worry, You're just hung over. That's

(04:39):
why you have blurred vision. She could listen to her
hangover episode. I know, I couldn't remember if blurred vision was.
I don't think it was. I think maybe if you
have a turpentine hangover, blurred vision is, but not from
com royal It maybe something else. All right, well, hanging
on by threads, I'll carry us both in this episode.
Then how about that she just kicked back and relax

(05:00):
and turn right, turner, that's right. How do you remember
the time when you realize that Ted wasn't someone's name? Yeah,
but was it immediate or had you heard of Ted
for a little while before you're like, oh, there's not
actually a Ted. No. I think I caught onto the
Ted Talks when most everyone else did. Was when they

(05:21):
became readily available and distributed on YouTube. It was like
two six, Yeah, that's when they really like, uh launched.
Oh you were early, that's early. Yeah. And I wasn't
like watching them all the time, but I knew what
it was and pot this is certainly neat in a
version of what we do. Yeah, yeah, I'm I mean,
I don't remember when I first saw a TED talk,
but I became aware of them as like a thing. Well,

(05:44):
we weren't doing this later for sure, so I didn't
think that at the time. See, yeah right, so UM TED.
In fact, for those of you who don't know the
three of you, UM does not stand for it's not
a person name. It stands for technology, entertainment, and design,
and UM. TED talks are talks originally about things that

(06:09):
fell under those three general topics, but have since expanded
tremendously and have become this kind of global creativity thinker
brand that falls very much in line with the the
idea and the feeling behind UM San Francisco and Silicon
Valley uber UM, the building we work in, like all

(06:34):
like this, this whole kind of new technocratic idealism is
the TED is very much a foundation of that, and
help and help foster it for sure, yea. Although it
covers wide range of topics now anything a technocrat would
be interested in it is well, and not even technology.
It incomes as all kinds of eythings. Yeah. Do you

(06:55):
remember our Long Now episode, the one about the ten
thousand year clock that would if you, if you are
at all interested in TED talks or this episode, go
listen to that one that will definitely be in your
wheelhouse to agreed. And they are eighteen minutes long. Uh,
because supposedly that is the length of the human u

(07:16):
uh span of intentions, attention span. That's right that I
love how everybody couches that. And supposedly, yeah, I mean
is there did you look up as there science behind that?
Couldn't find anything behind it. I'm sure that there is
some social science study about it that concluded that that's
the case. That doesn't mean that's it's a neat construct
and I think a selling point for Ted talks because, uh,

(07:37):
this article points out, um, they are tailor made for
today because they're shortish and shareable and um, they're sort
of perfect for our new social media age. Yeah. The
guy who wrote this article, Dave Russ, basically puts it
like Ted is ready made for the digital age. Like
you said, they're eighteen minutes long, they're shareable, and Ted

(07:58):
very presciently started sharing these things online for free in
two thousand six, and that was a year after YouTube.
And I remember when YouTube came around, it was like
it was not a given that YouTube was always going
to be here like it is today and so to
release all of your stuff, all your videos online back
in two thousand and six that had had a decent

(08:21):
amount of foresight. Very teddy, so teddy. All right, well,
let's go back in time a little bit, because this
very much surprised me. Uh not back to two thousand
four or even nineteen ninety four. Yeah, go ahead, jump, yeah,
like Van Halen is playing Panama on the radio and

(08:45):
your TV. Sure, the little angel kids smoking cigarettes and
the very first ted talk happened. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Yeah?
And it wasn't like Ray Kurzwile strutting the stage, just
staccato releasing like different computer terms. It was a It
was basically the ultimate dinner party. Is how it was

(09:06):
put by a designer. Um, and his name is Richard
Saul Warman. And I looked at Richard Saul Warman and um,
he is indeed a designer and publisher and author of
eight books, and uh, he decided that he wanted to
put together something where anyone could come and listen to

(09:28):
luminaries and basically a dinner dinner party like setting with
the stage. Cool idea, like if you have a dinner
party and you put a stage in the corner. There's
your first TED conference, that's right. And what he said was,
you know, I wanted to sort of have an anti conference.
I don't want someone up here with the power point.
I don't want someone up here lecturing for an hour. Uh.
The idea was to make him just to get smart

(09:50):
people together on stage and in the audience and have
them be kind of snappy and quick. And apparently he
would even like run you off the stage if you
were going too long or if he became bored. Yeah,
but that's so Richard sault Warman. Well, I don't know.
I'm just kidding because one of his books is called
I'm Bored. Right, it's just like right. At the very

(10:16):
first HEAD conference there was a it's very cute and adorable.
Now they featured a demonstration of the Sony Compact disc player. Yeah,
but dude, that's four Yeah. Yeah, man, I'm sure that
was like, what is this sorcery? One of the yeah,
one of the first Um, you don't have to rewind. Yeah,

(10:38):
that was a big innovation with Compact. It's so I'm
not sure if you're aware of that. Sure, the eight
track boy they tried, Yeah, what was the tex problem?
It was just too clunky. Well, I mean the advantage
of being able to skip ahead. Yeah, that's like four
songs at a time. Though you couldn't skip like too
song number two or three. It would jump in like

(10:59):
groups of four. Oh, I don't recall that. Yeah, that's
a big design for at least minded. Maybe I had
a crappy Richard Saul Warman would never have released something
with that kind of a design flaw. The very first
or one of the very first demonstrations of the Macintosh
computer was at ted. That's huge. And uh, a little
mathematician by the name of Ben Wha Mandel brought famous

(11:21):
for his set. Yeah, he spoke there's a great Jonathan
Colton song, yeah about him and his fractals. That's right,
Mr Colton. Yeah. Uh who we've met, Oh yeah and
hung out with. He's a good dude, Yeah he is. Yeah,
he's been to our shows before, that's right. Uh. And
so six years later he took a little break because

(11:44):
it was it didn't make him any money. Um. In fact,
I think it even cost him money. Yes, to think
about this, you go to a conference where the compact
disc is being shown about five six years before it's
actual real release digital which he book Reader and ben
Wa Mandel brought and no one wants to come. So

(12:04):
financially it was a flop, but he'd put together a
good conference, and like you said, he took six years
or something like that. Then he tried it again and
apparently this time it took. Yeah, that's when the eighteen
minute format came into play, and um, it became like
a really big ticket, like all of a sudden that
he had made a name for himself in his conference.

(12:25):
And these were in Monterey, California at first because that's
where he lived, until two thousand nine, they moved to
Long Beach, and then in two thousand and fourteen they
moved ultimately to where they were bound to be in Vancouver.
Yeah for now. Um, they they If you go on
the TED site and look up their conference schedule or whatever,
it says that they hold it annually on the West

(12:48):
coast of North America. So they're not they're not locking
themselves into anything further than the West coast of North America.
What they're definitely saying is we're not coming York time zone,
even though the staff is partially based in any or. Yeah,
did you read that weight. But why article I sent you? Yep. Yeah,
well we'll talk about it some more later. So. Uh,

(13:12):
Richards Saul Werman, being the the wander lustful designer that
he is, decided that he made Ted is success and
he was now bored with it, so he sold it.
He was he was older, he was looking for a successor.
Well he found one and Chris Anderson, the birdman of
the Miami Heat. Wouldn't that be funny? It was weird

(13:36):
fox hawk? Yeah. Uh no. Chris Anderson he ran a
nonprofit or runs one called the Sapling Foundation, and he
ponied up a cool four million pounds to buy Ted. Dude,
he has made that back and then something, Oh I'm sure, well, no,
it's a nonprofit, right, He's made some money off. Uh.

(13:57):
So Anderson took it over. Um started running it as
a nonprofit and kind of brought that sensibility to it.
But he took the eighteen minute chunk idea, which is
a huge cornerstone trait of Ted, you know, and ran
with it. He did. Um. He he was the one
who said we need to release these online. Um he uh.

(14:20):
He curates still to this day. From what I understand,
all of the speakers and the audience members. Yeah, so
we'll talk a little bit about like making a TED
talk if you're ever invited to produce one, and attending
the TED conference after this. So, Chuck, let's say that

(14:54):
UM TED came to you and said, Hey, I'm Ted,
and uh I want you to speak at me. Yes, okay,
So you just have signed up for a tremendous amount
of work actually and a lot of stress and nervousness
from what I understand of course. Uh. And actually we'll
go ahead and tease this. Uh. Coming up at the

(15:16):
end of this episode, we are going to interview the
Great Roman Mars of the Great Invisible Podcasts and part
of the original cast of a chorus line. That's right,
and the Roman spoke at one of the legit TED conferences,
not a TED X no Ted, but the real deal. Yeah,

(15:38):
and we should say so, like, um, there's you may
have seen if you're familiar with TED, TED X TED Global,
that kind of thing. UM and TED conferences are held
once a year, and this is the one that is
like the big mamajamma where like the guy who runs TED,
Chris Anderson, picked you to to speak at it. It
is UM and then there's ted X, and ted X

(16:00):
are basically like um local versions of ted and they
can either be huge like San Diego ted X is
a bona fide legitimate conference. And then, um, I'm quite
sure that there's Toledo ted X. Do you think I
think so. I think we might have been invited to
it once. No, I think so. I don't think we
could make it. We were invited to a ted X

(16:22):
somewhere is either in Ohio or Indiana. Well, our old
friend Joey Ciara, formerly of Henry Clay People, now of
bakers Um, he went to Harvard and was trying to
get us to do a ted EX at Harvard at
one point. I don't know if that's when you're thinking
of No, okay, nope, this is in a Midwestern states.

(16:45):
Harvard is not in the Midwest. But does Joey still
at Harvard right though? No? No, no? He finished, Oh congratulations, Joey. Yeah,
he congratuated and then decided he wanted to go to
film school. So, dude, the guys all over the place,
he's all over the place. Can I ask it's not
the fakers, It's just fakers. He's just fakers. Where's the
the was the great band? Okay, where is the the

(17:09):
What do you mean? The Fakers? It's like Edie Brikell
and New Bohemians that used to drive me crazy, the
same thing. They're not the Indigo Girls. Indigo Girls doesn't
strike me in the same way. And I get like Fakers,
it doesn't have to be the Fakers. The makes it
a band name, you know, but Fakers is it's a
little more artistic. There's something different to it. But it's

(17:30):
just when you leave off the in front of a
band name, I notice that my antenna go up. It's like,
what are you trying to pull? I think originally the
Eagles were just eagles. I think that's correct. Or did
they remain that and they were just mistakenly called the Eagles?
I could see that, But I also see Glenn Fry
and Joe Walsh and Don Henley not being ones to

(17:51):
correct somebody. You know, they're a little more easy going
than Eadie Brikell. Well, I think it's just Eagles. Still,
The Indigo Girls sounds weird, like are you doing tomorrow? Oh?
I'm going to see Indigo Girls for some reason. I
know what you're saying, you know, But that's never stuck
out to me with the with them back to TED. So, uh,

(18:14):
Roman can count himself among some very distinguished people like
Bill Clinton and Bono and Richard Dawkins and Jane Goodall
and Al Gore had They've had lots of very famous
people speak at TED conferences. Ted. Yes, So that's what
we were saying. We're talking about TED X to Global
the difference, and and Romans spoke at TED big big um.

(18:35):
So if you are asked to speak at TED, UM,
and you do agree, you are you're basically here's the
thing I didn't know about TED that I learned from
researching this. You are creating an eighteen minute presentation that
when you give this speech like you're speaking at verbatim
word for word. Yeah, it's a performance, it is, um

(18:58):
and so like this thing is not like I've got
an eighteen minute speech I know pretty well. Like it's
not for the way, Yeah, for the most part, Um,
it is someone who is an expert in their field.
Let's say robotics for example, UM, And a robotics expert
is not necessarily a gifted public speaker. In fact, they

(19:21):
probably are not. So probably so part of the TED
process is to basically be matriculated and inculcated into this
Ted atmosphere where you are coached and um and prompted
and harangued and written and maybe spanked down the bottom
when you don't deliver a script down time. That kind

(19:42):
of thing. Yeah, it's very like the reason if you've
seen a bunch of Ted talks, the reason they all
seem the same is because of that reason they want
them to feel similar. But yeah, it's a format of
a brand, yeah, which is a Roman kind of but
convention a little bit. And so we'll talk to him
about that. Can't wait. Yeah, it's gonna be great. Um.
But so what happens is and this is it surprised me. Um.

(20:05):
Six to nine months before they give the talk, a
speaker will start working with the staff and producers and
editors to craft your story along with you, right, which
is really interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, Um, I
brought up wait but why earlier? Tim Urban, the guy
who I believe runs that site, um, and it's a
pretty pretty interesting site. He's got some good stuff on there. Um.

(20:28):
But he did a Ted talk, the big one in Vancouver,
I guess last year or in two fourteen maybe. Um.
And he talked about how he kept putting off, you know,
coming up with an idea even let alone a script,
and he finally had like a flash of inspiration and
decided procrastination would be a great one to do. Yeah

(20:50):
and he um he if you read this is called
doing a TED talk, calling the full story. He goes
into great details. He is a comic stret of like
and you really feel it with him where you're starting
to get anxious because you when when he showed up
for coaching a month or so out, Um, he showed
up to TED offices in New York and he did

(21:11):
his his his talk for the first time in front
of TED staffers. Um. They it apparently wasn't very well received.
That's got to be the worst feeling in the world. Yeah.
And apparently he up until the um the day he
gave it, he was rehearsing constantly. Do you remember the
time we did them the thing at the in the

(21:33):
Inventor's Hall of Fame. It was the one time we
did a script and there was a script where like
I had lines and you had lines that responded to
my lines, and there's no winging this and you and
I just pounded it into our heads, did it over
and over and over again, and then we we finished
rehearsing him. Right when we finished rehearsing that last time,
we walked right on the stage and did it. There

(21:55):
was no down time or anything like that. It was
like we we worked out our brain muscles, but we
were hanging on by our fingernails. We weren't asked back
if I remember, it's it's not h It's not the
way we prefer to work. Because if you've seen us live,
you know we have our notes, but we do you
like we do in the studio, and we we it's
a general outline, but we are very much more comfortable

(22:16):
speaking in our own voice. Right, So this is this
is what Ted. It's not like that. It's like we
you have a script and you know it line by line.
And they apparently have a question a couple of questions
like measuring sticks for whether you actually have something memorize.
Did you did you catch those in the way up
wide posts? Yeah? In fact, he calls it um. There's

(22:37):
different levels of memorization. He goes over, and the one
that you need to get to for Ted is called
he calls happy birthday. Yeah, like, when you know that
song so well, you can like to do your taxes
and sing it out. Wou So he's and this just
sends like I got nervous just reading this. Uh. He said.
If you record yourself saying the talk and play it

(22:57):
back at double speed, can you say it out loud
while it's playing and stay ahead of the recording? That
just gives me anxiety. And number two, can you recite
the talk with no problem while simultaneously doing an unrelated
task that requires attention, like following a recipe and measuring
out ingredients into a bowl. Yeah, I mean imagine that's
a great way to practice. Know and you have something cold?

(23:20):
But um boy, uh, I just don't even bother asking
us Ted, right, And I mean like that's that's the thing.
It's like, fear of public speaking is an awful thing,
and then it's it's exponentially amplified when you have a
script that you have to remember a word for word
and line for line. And that's part of TED. And again,
like you said, I don't think they're doing this just

(23:41):
to be mean. They're doing it because they have a
brand in a format and like you need to stick
to the format when you're doing the the talk, right. Yeah.
What I'm curious about and I couldn't find this anywhere
they probably don't like to talk about it is I
wonder if or how often they bail on people and
are just like you knows, from what I understand, uh,

(24:03):
the TED people would not be afraid to do that. Really.
I didn't know if they did that or they took
the other approach, which is like, no, well, we're gonna
keep banging this out with you until you got it.
Probably both, Yeah, I mean probably, but I'm sure they
give their full support and like really try to work
with you. But you know, I'm sure people have turned
in ideas and they're just like that's actually not a

(24:26):
good idea, and the person wants to stick with it
and they're like, Okay, we're gonna go with somebody else
or yeah. Well there's a couple of hallmarks of a
good TED talk that they work with you on, um,
that you'll notice, uh. And one is that they want
to frame your story as a personal journey of discovery.
This I find is a little narrow, uh. And a
talk should feel like a quote little miracle end quote

(24:49):
and change your audience's perspective on the world. Which that's
that's the problem that I have with it, Like not
everything is a little miracle, and I don't think you
should force it into a little miracle box. Like something
can be interesting just on its face. Yeah, but if
you know, then start your own conference. Like you know
what I'm saying, Like that's their thing right now, I

(25:09):
get it. That's why I don't like critics. Well, we'll
get to the criticism and I'll go off then. But
they wanted to be really focused on like one specific thing.
Obviously in eighteen minutes. You can't be too rambly, which
is another reason why they would never ask us because
we'd start talking about Cohen Brothers movies. May be like

(25:30):
they'd get the hook out. Have you seen Hail Caesar yet? No?
Which is weird it is I'm usually like right in
that theater on the first week. I guess it's an
allegory for Christ maybe, Oh really, I think so interesting. Uh,
some of the other things that they will work with you.

(25:50):
You're not gonna use a teleprompter, like we said, it's
got to be memorized. Yeah, we don't use teleprompters even
when we're shooting videos. Do you use teleprompters? I do
for the what the stuff? I find it's too difficult
and distracting. I don't have enough confidence in my just
reading cold abilities. Love it. Sure, I can read all
day long. Uh they they you can't use note cards

(26:13):
if you want to uh to do that. Yeah, you're
not a robot. No, you might be a robot scientist,
but you're not a robot. Right. Yeah. They want you
to make eye contact and be accessible, and they recommend
picking out some friendly faces in the audience. That's a
that's big and these actually do translate to just about

(26:35):
any public speaking gig. Yeah. And what I think is
funny is having done shows with you, is you tend
to pick out the least friendly face and afterwards you're like, well,
is that guy on the second row he just kept
yawning and he had his arm scrolls look or something. Yeah,
it's so funny. It's easy to like obsess, like that
person we've lost. Um yeah, it's that is good advice

(26:59):
to find some friendly people. You want to find more
than just like three. You definitely want to do like six, seven, eight,
scattered all around the audience so that you're looking around,
and you've got your people that you're looking at, and
you know they're thrilled and delighted that you're talking right
to them for a second. But then they can also
get very uncomfortable if you're talking to them for most

(27:21):
of the show, So you want to kind of spread
that thing around. And then also it doesn't hurt to
just kind of look in the air to while you're talking,
you know, or close your eyes and pretend you're not
there on stage speaking in front of people. We don't.
You don't really get that nervous anymore. I know what
it depends. I have remember in uh in New York
at town Hall, I almost I almost had to tell

(27:41):
you that you need to push me on stage. Yeah,
some are a little bit more nervy than others, but
that goes away pretty quick quickly because our audiences and
our listeners are super supportive, Like you can't ask for
a better room to walk into. Well, Plus we don't
have to win the crowd over. There's probably five people
who don't listen to stuff you should know at any
one of our shows. It's not like being a stand

(28:04):
up comedian. No one knows you, especially if you're an
opener and you have to win the crowd over. That
sounds like a living nightmare to me. Yeah, that's well,
I've never tried to stand up one of many reasons. Um.
And then they also say to you know, not be
too uh active, like use your hands and stuff. But
you want to be fairly still. Yeah, you don't want

(28:24):
to be running all over the stage. Remember when we
were on Solidade O'Brien one morning and my knee was
just going like five and they did like a full
shot of us for the whole interview. Not good. Yeah,
it was weird because it was also like six am.
It was you probably had like six cups coffee. I

(28:45):
might as well just stay up. Oh. One thing they
point out this article I thought was interesting is that
and maybe this answer is my question about working with people. Um.
One of the most popular Ted's ever was from Susan Kane.
Did you see that one? Yeah, it's great. She wrote
a book called Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a
World that can't stop talking. So she is a self

(29:06):
described very famous introvert, and he was able to do it.
So yeah, hers is very endearing and it kind of
gives you the idea that um, and this was This
was also mentioned by Tim urban on Wait but why
that like those people are they want you to succeed.
They're not there to be like I can't wait for
you to fail. Um. There. So there's a very encouraging

(29:29):
crowd at her her Ted talk. That's very sweet And
it was I saw that because our old friend Bill
Bill Gates. It was on his list of ten favorite
Ted Talks. And I went and watched it before we
interviewed him because you know or check this out introverts
l O L and I was like, sent from my iPhone,

(29:55):
Oh busted. Um. Actually, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were
very good friends. They were healthy competition. Well. In fact,
Bill Gates could arm wrestle Steve Jobs under the table
and it drove Steve Jobs nuts. Did you know Bill
Gates can jump over chairs though it was like one
of his things that he's known for. Did you know that? Well?

(30:18):
I think he told me. Okay, I didn't know until
you told me he still does it once in a while. Wow,
we should have him do that? And yeah, I thought
that might have been a bad idea. Uh So, I
guess we should talk a little bit about the criticisms
since we teased it. Yeah, because there's plenty of it.
It's a it's basically a sporting pastime to to take
down Ted. I just don't get it. These things are

(30:40):
so enjoyable to read to me. Yeah, Like, um, Frank
rich Rot one called Ted Talks are lying to you.
And it was originally in Harper's, which I think is
where I read it a few years ago, and it's
reprinted on Salon now because Harper's is behind a paywall,
and um, it's just beautiful. It's not just about Ted Talks.
It's about this whole idea of thing like Ted basically

(31:02):
the commoditization of creativity, Um, just being uncreative, recycling of
established tropes and stuff. What did he called it? Uh?
Was that him or Benjamin Bratton? Oh, it might have
been Bratton. It called it a megachurch infottainment for middle
brow classes, for middle brown masses. Right, okay, yeah, Well

(31:27):
the big the big criticisa, Yes they are, Like, there
are plenty of awesome Ted talks. Um. I don't think
anyone disputes that. I think a lot of people who
criticized Ted believe that there's this unspoken sentiment that Ted
is changing the world, and the critics point to Ted's

(31:50):
really not changing the world at all. It's basically saying,
here's this really cool ge whiz idea that you two
can understand, and um, go tell your friends about it
and let the whole idea die there, And that that's
actually taking legitimate, great ideas from this roboticist and then
just spreading it out to the masses and fizzling out

(32:12):
rather than going the opposite way. Now, Ted, on the
other hand, is like, are you crazy. If you go
to our conferences, most of the attendees are extraordinarily rich
philanthropists or investors or entrepreneurs who might take that roboticists
idea and actually manufacture it. But I think for the
most part, if you did tip for tat um, it

(32:33):
compared things that panned out from a Ted talk, the
things that just fizzled out or haven't haven't panned out yet.
They haven't panned out yet far and away exceeds the
ones that have. Yeah, I got no problem with that.
I think TED talks and I think this is their
mission is. I think it's a conversation starter and should

(32:54):
not be looked at as anything more than that. Is,
let me break down something you may not have heard of, uh,
and try to inspire you in eighteen minutes and start
a conversation. Um. I don't think their mission should be
anything but that, so I agreed. Um. The The other
big criticism is that it's an extremely elitist organization and

(33:18):
that it's it's not just elitist. TED itself is not
just elitist, but the people who really enjoy and get
into TED are also extremely elitist without even being aware
of it. Basically like, if you read the weight but
why post um Tim is talking about going to TED,
And when you go to TED, the whole, the whole

(33:38):
thing is you're one speaker on stage and the whole
conference is there. There's not multiple speaker speaking at once.
There's um like seventies speakers over the course of this week,
and so everybody's there for you. But the people who
aren't in the auditorium might be out on some artificial
turf under a fake tree watching it on TV, or
in a giant ball pit watching it on TV. And

(34:00):
it's like this is the antithesis of a hard life.
Even though a lot of the TED ideas are talking
about how to solve problems that have hard lives, so
it's like very much ensconced and like to get to TED.
You pay a minimum of eight dollars uh two as
an attendee. Yes, well it's it's unless it's changed. That

(34:20):
was I thought it was on a subscription model. Now,
so I saw six thousand dollar a year you become
a member essentially, Okay, I didn't see that. I saw
to attend it was undred or you could double that
and be considered a donor, which I'm sure comes with
more perks or whatever. Um. But if you take the
if you take the meme between those two, the two

(34:40):
prices you would pay for that week long conference and
you have to be invited to we should point out, well,
that's that's another thing. You have to pay at least
eight dollars and apply on top of that. And of
course they're not going to charge you if if you
don't make the cut, but you have to apply and pay.
And in the application it's it's like we want to
know the real you, so sit down with a coffee

(35:03):
and really think about who you are in explaining this
to us. In the application, it says that on the
tips for applying some fair trade coffee too. Probably, I'm
quite sure. I think that's just insinuated day. Um. But
if you take the mean of D and seventeen thousand, uh,
and you multiply that by the four hundred attendees at
a TED conference, the TED conference takes in about seventeen

(35:25):
seventeen million, eight hundred fifty grand in a week. They
don't pay their speakers. They put them up in hotels
with roommates, and um there there if I saw this
thing on Joe Rogan, Eddie huang Um was on. He's
like a chef and he did a TED talk and
he had this nightmare story about his TED experience. Um.

(35:45):
So they're raking in a bunch of money. And the
big thing that they put out is a one million
dollar TED Prize every year, which Bono got one year
and Jamie Oliver. So there's a lot of Ted's got
a lot of stuff to be criticized. At the end
of the day, I agree with you. The talks in
and of themselves, I have no problem with. Well, yeah,

(36:05):
and there's a certain demographic that just doesn't want to
hear Bono talk about starvation or like he he needs
an extra million dollars for his foundation. You know, like
that's who that million went to that year. I think
Bill Clinton won one year too. Yeah, and Jamie Oliver again,
like these guys could just cough up a million dollars
into their own foundations. So I would strongly recommend go

(36:30):
read the weight. But why doing a Ted talk post?
Um read, Uh, we we have to talk about Ted,
which is a Benjamin Bratton Ted talk, which that's that's
cohones if you ask me. He did a Ted takedown
at Ted x San Diego, which again is a big one.
And then um read Ted talks are lying to you?

(36:51):
Which is that Frank rich one that's about way more
than Ted Talks. Yeah. I think part of my defense
here is tied to our own show. And uh, like
we got an email that we're not even gonna read,
but we got an email a couple of weeks ago
that you know, and we get them from time to
time where you you guys should do this, this and this,

(37:12):
this is where your show stinks and it should be this,
And I'm always like, go start your show then, like
this is what we do and we're not claiming to
do anything else, right, Yeah, And there's a there's definitely
a difference between saying, hey, I think you guys should
have guests on more or whatever constructive criticism. But you know,

(37:33):
if somebody comes along and just doesn't drive by jerk move,
which I want to see Erin Cooper make a photoshop
of that, um, that doesn't help. So that's one of
the things why I think the takedowns are enjoyable to
read because they make real sense in a lot of ways.
And also go read on smart It was a Gawker

(37:54):
post from a couple of years ago, and it's very lengthy,
but it really kind of lays the foundation that's like
the antithesis of the ted talk sentiment. You know. Yeah,
I feel it's with social media. I feel like people
are just sitting and wait to take something down, and
I'm just tired of it. I have takedown fatigue. I

(38:15):
know what you mean, but I I don't have takedown
fatigue for thoughtful, sensible, reasonable takedowns. Agreed um. But I
think when the takedown is on something, it's not like
they're exploiting anybody or you know, it's not like I
mean takedown child labor, not like a ted Talk. It's
my opinion. Uh, coming up after this break we are

(38:39):
going to and now we've got a lot of interesting
stuff to talk about with Roman Mars of Invisible right
after this. All right, well we are back with a

(39:04):
rare interview, although we've been doing it more and more.
We had Bill Gates on, and now we have the
great Roman Mars of the wonderful, awesome Invisible podcast and
Radio Topia podcast Network. Yeah, the guy is a podcast magnate.
Hi Roman, Hey guys, how's it going great? How are

(39:26):
you sir? I'm excellent, Thank you, thanks for having me on.
I'm I'm so glad to be in the company of
Bill Gates and yourselves. Well, you know, I wouldn't go
that far, but uh so we did a podcast on
Ted talks Um that we already recorded, and so you
obviously came to mind because you did your very own
Ted Talk and not a Ted X or a Ted

(39:49):
triple X or whatever versions have. Yeah, you did the
real deal. Yeah, it was something else. It was really fun.
I highly recommend you do it if you get asked.
And that was like one one year ago, right, Yeah,
it was almost exactly a year ago. And Roman, what
was your Ted talk? On? My Ted talk was about
the design of flags? How did you end up on that? Yeah. So,

(40:13):
you know a lot of times when you're asked to
a TED Talk, you're you know, a scientist or a
social scientist or philosopher, who is really you know, when
you're asked to a TED Talk, you know exactly what
Ted talk you're goin to give, because it's your life's work.
Whereas I'm a journalist, I mean I tell stories. So
when they said do a design story, I had a

(40:34):
couple of hundred because I do the radio show about it,
and so I just had to pick one that I
was most passionate about. And I tried lots of different
ideas and I had this world grand unified theory of
design that I was going to present at some point,
and I tried it out in different life settings and
it just wasn't working. And I called him up and
I said, I just don't know. I have this one.

(40:55):
I think it's going okay, but I kind of want
to talk about flags. And they said me, I can
tell by the sound of your voice you should do
the flag one because you sound excited about it. So
I did and it was it was really fun. Well, yeah,
I um, I've seen it a couple of times, and
it's one of my favorite ones. And um, partially because

(41:16):
of your passion, but partially because like you can, you
can literally since you winning over that audience as you
watch it, because they were a little stiff at first,
and you could like as a as a viewer, like
I'm watching it and nervous for you at first because
you're a buddy, and then like you feel already audience

(41:36):
like literally warming up to you, and then before you
know it, they're like everyone's laughing at you. And it
ended up being one of the one of the funnier,
more amusing Ted talks I've seen. Well, thank you so much. Yeah,
I felt that too, ifect. In fact, I felt that
the whole week because I gave my talk on a Thursday,
and so I was there from you know, Saturday to Thursday,
and then the last day it's a Friday, and so

(41:59):
all week when you when they see that you're a speaker,
you can see it on your badge. The first thing
people ask you was what your talk is about? And
I was just a little shy about talking about it
because I know it's a little topic when people. I mean,
the guy the next day, you know, he won a
Nobel Peace Prize for freeing eighty thousand child slaves. You know,

(42:20):
you're like, I'm gonna give my flag talk, you know,
you know, so oh my god. And so I was
really sheepish about it. But um, one of the things
I loved and my my sense of accomplishment was really um.
I was just I was kind of proud that it
was sort of a small topic that I was passionate

(42:40):
about and it still won them over and I knew
it would. It was. It was fun to do. Yeah,
for those of you who haven't seen it, first of all,
watch it because it's as all Ted talks, it's under
twenty minutes, and it's um it's about the design. Um
about flag design, but even more specifically city flags of
United States kind of all around the world. But you

(43:02):
you really uh, I mean, you did a great job
for non flag enthusiast. I mean the first thing I
did was look up the Atlanta flag afterward, and of
course ours is one of those with the state seal.
Uh you have a phoenix on it. It does have
a phoenix. Uh, yeah, I think it. I think there's
a phoenix, but it's contained within the state seal, which
Roman says is just bad design. Yeah. I mean. The

(43:25):
funny thing about the Atlanta flag, if you will allow
me to digress, is uh, that is that it also
has a phoenix, you know, rising from flame, just like
the San Francisco flag does. Um. But actually I think
it's designed a little a lot better. So if one
of us had to keep it, I would vote for
Atlanta keeping it the way it is, whereas I think

(43:45):
that San Francisco is an abomination. But if I think
we both kind of need to step aside for you know,
the city of Phoenix, which has a phoenix on its
flag too, Okay, good so um, but I think Atlanta,
you know, like as much as it is, it's still
a cell. I think it's I think it's all right.
I thought San Francisco's was tie died it would be

(44:08):
more appropriate. I think. So were you were you nervous
while you were preparing for this, like we oh, this
is this is part of a larger episode on Ted Talks,
And one of the things we ran across is that
it's a very long, nerve wracking process. Yeah. I mean,
if it's your typical typically you're you're contacted months and

(44:29):
months ahead of time, so I was contacted in August
of the year before and performed it in March. So
for a couple of months you're just trying to figure
out what you're gonna do, and you know, trying to
trying to do your best to write something early so
that they have something to react against and UM, the

(44:50):
whole process is really nerve wracking. Even even people who
are really seasoned presenters UM run against this. They it's
so prizing how the venue really really makes you nervous.
The one thing you probably can't see is that it's
the most well lit auditorium you've ever been in. So

(45:13):
one of the things that makes performing in front a
lot of people really uh easy is you have those
lights you know, in your eyes and you can't really
see anybody, and you're kind of just performing to yourself. Well,
here you can see every face, and not only can
you see every face, but you can see faces like
Bill Gates and Al Gore and it's super nerve wracking. Yeah,

(45:35):
we've met the people you UM. One of the things, too,
Roman that that was different about yours was that you
defied convention by sitting down at your table and doing UM.
Having audio and visual aids and you you make a
crack about it at the beginning, like who was this

(45:56):
guy who can sit down? He said, well, this is radio.
Did you have a hard time talking them into that approach?
Not at all. That was something that I had psyched
myself out. And a lot of people do psych themselves
out when they deal with TED because it's so prestigious
and and so cool to be a part of it.
But um, just like the flag talk itself, where I was,

(46:18):
you know, I want to do a little small thing
and not the big, grand TED talk. I had said, Well,
by the way, I I kind of do these live
presentations where I present it like a podcast where I
have sound clips and interview clips and music clips and
I sit down and it's kind of like being an
information DJ. And they were so excited about that that

(46:40):
I don't know why I didn't talk to him about
it sooner. It was kind of, you know, it was
my fault in a way. So they they really want
you to be yourself. They're trying to get you to
be yourself if you've never interesting. Yeah, so so like
you know, you see all the different things that they do,
and there's like there's a there is a lot of
qualities they're shared across ted talks, and so you think

(47:05):
that they sort of insist on that. But what they
know how to do is if you're like a plant
biologist and you've never given a talk before, they know
how to get you to give a good talk. But
if you've presented in lots of different ways before, you know,
they're totally happy to let you defy convention. They want
you to defy convention. That See, that surprises me because
we we figured uh, and I understood why you were

(47:28):
nervous that they were really strict about what is tad
and what isn't. Yeah, they don't. They want to be,
you know, a place of good ideas and understanding, and
they have a certain way that they know that they
can make anyone get there in a way using their methods,
and they're really smart about that. But if you have

(47:49):
your own way and as long as the result is
good and they have confidence in that and you have
confidence in yourself, they're really happy for you to do
it your own way. And they want to be surprised too.
There they're um, they're they're really delightful. But again, my
big problem was I had psyched myself out in some
way to think. I was like, God, if I asked
them for the table and the sound stuff, They're going

(48:11):
to be annoyed at me. And I'm just a podcaster
and what am I doing here? And so and so
like so I was just really um. But as soon
as I brought it up, they were super happy to
do it. And and and I didn't want to be
any trouble and stuff, and you know, and I would
talk to the the the the you know, the different

(48:32):
set people and sound people and you know, the stage
manager of the you know, of the thing has like
done the Academy Awards and and and they're like, you're
don't worry, we can handle You're sitting at a table,
you know. But like it's not it's not a big deal,
you know. You know we you know, they just did

(48:53):
Sounded Music Live last week, you know, so so it's
it's not you know, it was just it was that
was the weird part was getting over and once you
sort of like inside the fold, you realize that they're
all on the team with you, trying to make you
be the best you can be. So Roman one of
the things we ran across some research was there's a

(49:14):
definite undercurrent in popular culture that people love doing Ted takedowns.
They love writing articles about how snooty TED is and
how elitist it is, and um, what was your experience
with that, Like, did you see what those people are
talking about and they just have it wrong? Or did
you just did you not really encounter that? Because it
sounds like your your experience is altogether positive. Well, yeah,

(49:37):
my my seriance was altogether positive. I must admit that
before I was involved in it, I don't know if
I was really part of TED, you know, takedown, I
didn't have that sentiment. But I was skeptical because a
lot of it is it reeks of certain types of solutionism,
where you know, one you know, technical fix or design

(49:58):
fix will save the world in some way that is
believable for eighteen minutes, but then you know, you get
out in the real world and it seems it just
seems hokey and um and not applicable to actual, real
lives and real people. And so I was kind of
I mean, I I skeptical in that way too, but

(50:19):
when I and it, and it's also just like I'm
not of the world where you spend to go to
a conference that is not my world for sure. So
I went with a little bit of that, like thinking
about that a lot when I was there, And what
I left with was this real joy of being around

(50:40):
two thousand people who were really trying something and really
wanted to think optimistically about the world and wanted to
learn and more curious. And I just felt, I don't know,
I was sold on it. In so many ways it was.
And there was a very little hierarchy when you're there,

(51:01):
which is pretty interesting. Um, You'll be standing in line,
um for something, and it'll be some you know, CEO
billionaire and uh, and they want to engage with you
in lots of ways. You still, I mean, it's still
like normal people don't go to TED in a way
like you don't. You don't have a lot of cause

(51:22):
to spend that type of money. Um so and and
I'm one of those people that can't go unless you know,
they asked me to go. But um, in general, I
would say that I'm happy that those folks are engaged
and trying to think about the world in lots of
different ways and trying to be inspired, and um, you know,

(51:43):
if we don't live up to it, all the time
after we leave um at least there's some effort in
the right direction. So I liked it. Yeah. I liked
how you finish your episode, in particular because it was
about the design of city flag. Then you didn't say like,
this will change the world if you redesign your flag,

(52:04):
but you did say, you know, it can make a
difference if the city has a great flag behind them
to rally around, and it can be a unifying thing.
And I just, uh, I don't know. I appreciated that
sentiment at the end for sure. Yeah. And and they're
interested in that. They want people to take some action
and do something, and that's something that they're really into.

(52:25):
And there's like this year I went to something where
somebody was putting together a museum of of lynching actually
like a civil rights museum about the history of lynching
in the United States. And I don't know if this
thing had been released yet, but they're raising money for it.
And so as soon as the thing was over, everyone
there was like a Okay, we're gonna go upstairs and
we go raise money for this. And they raised a

(52:47):
lot of money for it that day. And it was
just something. It was like something to watch the power
of that room to get stuff done was was really
incredible and so you know, so I you know, I
try not to overdue mine to the importance of it.
I was really cognizant of how small it was in

(53:07):
a certain way, but um, but I like people to
think about it in a in a bigger way that
well designed things and civic pride and having some pride
is a big part of how we get things done,
and so you know, it leaves people with a little
bit to think about, but also just just to be entertained.
That was my main goal. Cool was there? Um? I mean,

(53:27):
is there like an after party? Do you get feedback
from people afterwards and audience? Yeah, I mean it's it's great.
Ted is much better after you're done before you start,
and because I had all week of just being super
nervous and thinking, got into some torp with the flag
talk and then then you're done and people kind of

(53:48):
know what you're about and uh, and they want to
talk to you. And it's fun because you're like an
expert of that thing, and so it's really it's really
enjoyable that give you. We had lots of good feedback,
lots of um and stuff, And I think that people
liked the format change and I finally got a sense
of my role in the in the week, you know,

(54:08):
along with the really important kind of heavy hitters, like
they do like to have lighter and comic relief. And
I mean, you know, don't get me wrong, it's not
like I'm not a stand up comedian. It was just
you know, he was just enjoying. So it's you know,
Ted comedy. It's like NPR comedy is really similar and um,

(54:29):
but it but it was. It's it's super fun. So
there's tons of parties and tons of like there's a
big social part of Ted. Awesome. Um, what do you
feel like And you don't have to like get specific
if somebody like stuffed a bunch of money in your pocket,
but what do you feel like it did for Invisible
and Radiotopia? I mean it exposed me to a bunch

(54:51):
of new people. They got to see the I know
a lot of people have started listening to the show
after seeing the Ted talk. Um it's a little different
from me, which was it was kind of fascinating because
I do have a public show, in a public profile
and a pretty popular show. It's not quite as popular
as uh it's Ted, but you know, we get we

(55:12):
get several million downloads amounts too, and so um, it
wasn't that huge like catapult from you know, obscurity as
a social scientist and and and out there in the world.
But it was just nice. It was like a nice
compliment to the things that we already do and um.
And it was just also fun to present stories in

(55:33):
a new way because you know, because we are a podcast,
we and we are a podcast often about visual things
because we covered design, it was nice to have this
other presentational format that had um, had some pictures, you know,
so it's kind of it was just it was just
really fun, like it was a great experience for me.
Nice man, thank you for talking with this Roman. We

(55:54):
appreciate it. You are the Ted Talking List friend we have. Actually,
that's not true. Hodgman did one too as well. He's
done a couple. Yeah, he's done a couple. Oh. He
the only one I've seen of Hodgeman is it was
very sweet. He talked about meeting his wife. Oh nice
was that that had to be a Ted X. Maybe
he's in Western Man, he's a he's he's a regular.

(56:16):
But it's really fun. I'm going back this year as
a TED mentor worked with other speakers and that was
that was pretty enjoyable too. So are you practicing clapping
your hands and going wrong, wrong, wrong for rehearsals. No, No,
not exactly. It's very supportive. By One of the things
that you don't get about TED is because the videos

(56:38):
are edited, you don't see the all the mistakes. And
I guarantee that everyone has made a mistake um in
a TED talk. And one of the great things about
the whole vibe of the room, and you might not
know this from watching it, is that the whole room
is like on your side. They're really really rooting for you.
They want to they want to be wowed, and so

(57:00):
if something technically goes wrong or you flub and have
to restart, the whole crowd just applauds and cheers and
just gets you going again. And it's really something. It's
like so like joyful. Have you ever had a room
full of billionaires clap for you? Yeah, But it's something
you don't pick up from the presentation, which gets a

(57:22):
little it's pretty slick. It's that that roughness that makes
people like they're really you can sort of rely on
them to lift you up. Um, and it's uh, it's
it's kind of a it's a nice room to be
in as an audience member and as a personal stage. Wow.
Well that's good to know actually, because it seemed yeah,

(57:43):
I mean, it seems like you're walking into a room
full of like a firing squad, not you, but just anybody,
because it's just so quiet and it just seems stiff
and um seem they hissed anytime you made a mistake. Exactly.
It's not like that. It's a it's exact opposite. We
I watched a train wreck of this talk this year.

(58:05):
It was kind of the it was the most kind
of amazing moment because people like stood up and cheered
and try to get this kid going, and it was amazing.
And it was such a disaster. It was like a
performance arts. Like you're making my stomach hurt right now. Yeah,
I know, but it but it was but in a way,
it was like this catharic event for all six people
in the theater and it was it was it was

(58:27):
kind of fun. All right, Roman, thank you my friend,
and um people, really, I know. We we talked about
invisible more than we should as competitors, but it's a great,
great show and people should support that. In radiotopia, always
tell people if you don't, even if you don't think
you like design, you should just try Invisible because it's

(58:51):
much much more than that. Where can they go to
find you, Roman, They can find us on our website
at p I dot org or you know anywhere where
you get podcasts. Well, thank you for coming on. Thank
you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. I really appreciate it.
I'm a huge fan. It's very exciting to me. Thanks man.
All right, Well we'll talk to you soon. So Chuck.

(59:11):
Uh that's Ted Talks. Yeah, thanks Roman, that was awesome. Yeah,
what a cool dude. If you want to know more
about Ted Talks, well just type Ted Talks into a
search bar and start watching Ted Talks. There's a million
of them basically. Um, and you can also read the
article on how stuff Works about it. Yeah, um, and
I said how stuff works, which means this time for

(59:34):
I'm gonna call this cremation. We did a great show
on cremation quite a while ago. If we do say
so so, If we do say so, this from Emily.
She says, Hey, guys, my dad was just listening to cremation.
My dad was cremated in two thousand four after passing
away to stupid idiot cancer. Uh. And my step mom
has really had a really interesting concept. She's really big

(59:56):
on recycling. She's known locally as the Queen of recycling
in Indianapolis. Wow, not bad. She found hundreds of teeny
tiny medical bottles about the size of the last segment
of your pinkie with tiny rubber plugs. She hand filled
like three hundred bottles with my dad's creamines and put

(01:00:17):
them on the mantle of the lodge at which we
hosted his celebration. We had a celebration instead of a
funeral outdoors under fall leaves, with wine and live music.
As he was locally loved as a folk musician Craig Laughlin,
all who loved him could take a few of the
bottles of him with them. Pretty neat. That's a great party, favor.

(01:00:39):
I think it's awesome. Since then, he's been to the
Vango Museum in Amsterdam, he's in the Bellaggio Fountain in
Las Vegas, and most recently he's mixed been mixed into
black volcanics and in Iceland's snuff Alopicus Peninsula. It's called
She even sent me how to pronounce its snail falls

(01:00:59):
and and it's this. I've also scattered him in every
apartment I've lived in since, always in the very back
corner of a closet or in a crack somewhere. Um. Anyways,
thanks for the episode. Pretty informative and I'm sure my
dad would giggle if you knew his body was flailing
around in the flames at the end. That's very cool. Yeah,
that's from Emily. And when I told her she was

(01:01:19):
on listr mail, she just responded with a big uppercase
expletive with an exclamation point. Shoot yep. And I was like, right,
that's cool. Thanks. Emily's very excited. That is really neat, Like, uh,
that's just a great story. Yeah, and you know what,
if you want to send some of your dad's cream,
anes will have him here in the studio with us. Yeah, yeah,

(01:01:43):
why not. Okay, I can't play any folk music though, no,
but we'll we'll, we would take good care of it.
And if you decided to do so, that's right. Okay,
thanks for that, Chuck, and thank you Emily. Either way,
whether you take him up on it or not. UH.
If you out there wanted to get in touch with us,
you can tweet to us at s y s K podcast.
You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash stuff

(01:02:05):
each snow, you can send us an email to Stuff
Podcast at how stuff Works dot com, and, as always,
joined us at at home on the web, Stuff you
Should Know dot com. For more on this and thousands
of other topics, is it how stuff Works dot com