December 15, 2015 • 31 mins
In 1900 sponge divers found the wreck of a 2000 year-old treasure ship that contained within it a machine that should not exist. Learn of the device that reveals an understanding of the cosmos far more sophisticated than anyone knew the Greeks possessed.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
just Charles W. Chuck Bryant. So this is the stuff
you should know the podcast. Yes, indeed, Um, you know,
(00:23):
archaeology was the first word, first big word I could
spell early, because like two weeks old when you're spelling archaeology. Yeah,
I couldn't spell anything else for years and years, but
I could spell archaeology. I love archaeology. Yeah, me too.
It's one of my favorite things actually too, although I
didn't list that when I was asked what my favorite
(00:43):
things were in that one listener mail, and still it's
up there. Um, but you too, huh oh yeah, starting
with uh, well, starting with Indiana Jones. Yeah, that definitely
helps that that we were alive and at the right
age when those came out. Um, well, Chuck, there's a ship.
(01:04):
It's an unnamed ship as far as I know, that
went down in the g and c off the coast
of a tiny, teeny little spit of land called Anti
Cathera in Greece, in between Crete and the Greek mainland,
I believe, and um in nineteen o one or nine
hundred it was discovered and it actually ended up giving
(01:25):
birth to the field of um marine archaeology. Actually it
was the first shipwreck that was ever excavated archaeologically. Yeah,
I think I wrote an article on that way back
in the day. Underwater archaeology. It's a very tricky, I
would imagine, so because most of the stuff you find
is falling apart, Like the second you take it out
(01:47):
of water, it starts falling apart. Right, So they've gotten
really good now and imagine they were not as good
about it in nineteen hundreds about bringing stuff up still
in water, yeah, and transporting in water, same sea water,
display it in water to uh well know then they
start poking around in yeah, right water. Yeah, with the water.
(02:10):
It's pretty sensible. Um I could have come up with that,
I think with that method. Yeah, good for you. Um well,
So okay, anyway, this shipwreck that was discovered in discovered
actually by accident, right. Yeah. There was some sponge divers.
You know, sponge diving. It's a big deal. Apparently it
(02:34):
wasn't Greece. It was. That's where you had to get
sponges back in the day. Uh is in the ocean,
and they were the sponge divers who they actually got
blown off course by a bad storm and ended up
in that lovely part of town, and they said, boy,
this is great, let's just dive here. One guy dove down,
came back up and there. They weren't free diving at
(02:56):
this point, and actually had you can listen to her well,
it wasn't a diving bell, but underwater breathing apparatus is.
At this point. He came back and he's like, oh
my god, they're dead horses and dead men everywhere. Yeah,
and the boss is like, I don't know about that.
Let me go dive down there. He dives down and
comes up with a bronze hand and says, you big dummy.
(03:18):
They smacked the guy over the head with it. It's
a statue, a bunch of statues down there decomposing. And
then he went, wait, why are there a bunch of
statues down there? And they they said, well, let's figure out,
let's remember where the spot is and we'll just head
off to North Africa and do our sponge diving like
we were going to initially. Yeah, they still have to
make some dough, right, But when they came back, they
(03:39):
took the bronze arm and the location of the ship
to the Greek government. And the Greek government said, you
know what, this could be a big deal. We have
a lot of antiquities out there under the sea and
this might be some sort of treasure troups. So they
hired these sponge divers to go back and excavate this place,
(04:00):
and they found some pretty amazing stuff. In addition to
the bronze arm, they found all sorts of marble statues. Um.
They found a bronze statue of a young athlete. I
think it was like six ft tall, a little bigger
than life is what they call it. Um they found
a bust of a cynic, a philosopher, a very detailed
(04:20):
lifelike bust that's really neat. And um that was the
guy whose arm. That was his arm, Oh, it was
his arm. Okay. Um. And they found all manner of stuff,
some really cool stuff and brought it up and they
displayed it in the museum. And among this trove, um
there was a greatly overlooked item item number one five
(04:40):
zero eight seven. And um, it was this weird kind
of it looked almost like a kind of a clock
face in a wooden frame and no one knew what
it was, and compared to the amazing art that had
been brought up, it looked like a pile of garbage basically,
So they just piled it away um and it languished
(05:02):
for a while until it was um kind of rediscovered again. Yeah,
and giving credit where credit is due. The Sponge Team captain,
I think that's what they called themselves. He was captain, Yeah,
Sponge Team Captain, Demetrius Kantos. And then the cry baby
who dove down there and thought he saw dead people
(05:25):
was Elias Stadiatus. And if there's one thing I love,
it's Greek names. Love the names. Do you like those
as much as archaeology? Greek archaeologists that you're pretty much
flying in the upper atmosphere for me. Uh So those
were the dudes that led the Sponge team, and all
(05:46):
those antiquities, they're scattered about a little bit, but most
of them are in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, Greece.
Uh and also some in Switzerland, oddly enough, and then
some more in a different museum of underwater antiquity in Greece.
And the reason the Greeks went to this trouble and
didn't just say whatever. Who cares about a bronze arm.
(06:07):
Apparently they'd been defeated recently by the Ottoman Turks within
the last few years, and we're looking for a way
to restore some national pride. And what better way to
restore national pride than raising two thousand year old statues
of your you know, ancient gods that were made by
your predecessors. And not only statues, but um, lamps and
(06:29):
bowls and utensils and tools and just all sorts of stuff.
It was a treasure trove. Yeah. So, um, this this
site still is basically intact. Um. It's a it's the
shipwreck is over Um a couple of I think about
three d foot span, about the length of a football field.
And there's actually for a long time they thought it
(06:50):
was two ships, but they think actually no, it was
an enormous, massive ship that broke into two and is
um they've only just found the front. They found like
the cabin, they haven't even found the hold. And that
it was a huge grain ship that had been converted
to basically a treasure ship that was taking Greek antiquities
to Rome around sixty b c. E um. And it's sunk.
(07:15):
So they there's all these treasures that they haven't even
found yet. They dove on it in nineteen hundred and one,
Jacques Cousteau hit it up in nineteen fifty and then
again in nineteen and now there's the most sophisticated dives
that are being taken on it. Yes, he's on it UM.
As of two thousand and fourteen, there's an international team
(07:36):
that includes some people from Woods Hole Geographic Institute or
Oceanographic Institute UM who are really starting to figure this out. Yeah,
and you know, one of the reasons you're still doing
this is because, like you said, it's just a great
find no matter what. But the other reason is because
item number one zero eight seven a k A. The
(07:58):
h how's that pronounced again? Annikathera anacathera mechanism is UM
one of the most mysterious finds ever because nobody knows
who made it. Uh and until recently no one knew
exactly what it was. But now they pretty much figured
it out. Yeah. Well, so when they when they first
brought it up in N one UM again, it just
(08:20):
looked like some weird kind of kind of like a clock,
but it was in a wooden frame as the wooden
frame was exposed to the air, it's it split and
the stuff inside fell apart. And when it fell apart,
one of the directors of the museum, I believe spirit
On Stais another great name. Um, he looked inside and
(08:42):
realized that these are all like actually different bronze parts,
and they have inscriptions and they appear to be geared
teeth like precision gears. Right, Except that's impossible because that
technology didn't come along for well over a thousand years later, yes,
a thousand plus, like maybe fourteen hundred, two thousand years later, right,
(09:03):
So it pops up in the west about the fourteenth
century in Europe. So yeah, like you say, it's totally
impossible that this could be what what he's looking at,
not fifty or a hundred years. So some people said, Um,
this thing probably accidentally was dropped over this wreck site
and just happened to nestle in and make it seem
(09:24):
like it was part of this ancient shipwreck. Nope, No,
it was found underneath other debris in the shipwreck. So
that's virtually impossible. But it was so confounding, and it's
so completely undermined our understanding at the time of technology
like that and just the understanding of that kind of
precision engineering. Um that it was just set aside, like
(09:47):
no one knows what this says. Let's just pretend it
doesn't exist. Yeah. Uh, and that happened until about the
nineteen fifties. And uh, we'll take a little break here
and we'll get back to what happened in the nineteen
fifties right after this. Alright, so it's nineteen fifties. Everyone's
(10:17):
drunk at lunch, smoking cigarette, throwing trash out of their window, right,
and there's an impossible machine rotting away in a museum
in Greece, that's right. And that's when a man named
Derek Dislo Price. Uh so, you know what, this thing
is pretty neat and I think I'm gonna make this
my new obsession. So he spent years researching this thing
(10:40):
and basically said, I think it's some sort of weird
Uh he said computer. He meant, well, he didn't mean computer,
because it can't be a computer. Obviously it's not programmable now,
so it can't be a computer. But it's I mean
that words not terribly far off off. Yeah, it's not
(11:02):
a computer. So he's using the wrong word there. But
along with Dr c uh Man another great Greek name
Kara Kallos, he's a radiographer. He said, let's take some
X rays of this thing. In the nineteen seventy four
he published as Findings in Gears from the Greeks, which
he thought was gonna light the world on fire. But
(11:22):
it turns out people were a little scared, uh to say, Yeah,
this thing is predates these kind of precision gears by
well over a thousand years, So let's rethink everything we
know about this kind of technology. Everyone, No one wanted
to touch it with the tin footpole, is what I gathered.
It was kind of ignored the at the time. The
(11:42):
people who were studying ancient Greece were studying their written documents, right,
they weren't studying like artifacts, like physical relics or anything
like that, and they certainly weren't really up on the
ancient Greek technology technology. Um. And so yeah, he wrote
this this book and just expected it to change the
(12:02):
world because he really had approached it from a very
scientific standpoint. When they finally released his book in the seventies, right,
his theory on what it was was correct. Yeah, he
theorized that It was a I'm going to use the
word computer alright, a mechanism. It was a mechanism with
UM at one point up to seventy two different precise gears,
(12:25):
two gears that all interacted with one another to track
the movement of the celestial bodies, the five planets that
were visible to the naked eye, the Sun, the Moon,
It tracked eclipses solar and lunar um. And it also
um it tracked the Olympic Games just as an added bonus. Well,
(12:49):
if you're gonna have a astronomical calculator, you might as
well throw in a sports calendar. Yeah, you know, might
as well. Uh, and so the whole thing again, this
thing should not have existed, like it wasn't for another
four years before anything like this appeared in the West. Um.
(13:10):
So it shouldn't have been which was another reason why
a lot of people weren't like, yes, this is a
great book Gears from the Greeks. It changed everything. They
were like, you're totally full of it. And this poor guy,
Um Price was not helped at all by a guy
named Eric van Danikin right. Yeah, he wrote a book
in uh nineteen sixty eight called Chariots of the Gods,
(13:35):
and in that he proposed that, um, there are aliens
who have been bringing us technological gifts to Earth and
this is one of them. And everyone this was a
really popular book, so he got all the headlines with
just a completely fabricated story. Yeah, it was like it
was the birth of the interest in ufology and the
Bermuda Triangle. The Naski lines are um landing strips, that
(14:01):
kind of stuff. Right, So when this guy came along
and put his stamp of um nuttiness, I guess if
certainly interesting. That whole Time Life Mysteries series definitely came
out of this von Dannikin's work kind of thing, but
it had nothing to do with any kind of academy
(14:21):
or scholarliness, right, so he really helped put the kai
bosh on Price's work. This gears from the Greeks, and
it languished for a while, um for another couple of decades,
I believe, right, Yeah, that's right. It wasn't until the
mid two thousand's that they decided, you know what, we
had this great technology now called CT scanning, computed UH tomography,
(14:47):
and what we can do with this stuff? We can
actually get inside this thing. And there are videos of
this actually being done on the mechanism. It's really cool looking.
You can like watch it unfold in real time. And
they basedly figured out from the inside out how this
thing worked and how it operated. And it is as follows.
There's a picture like a a wooden box about the
(15:11):
size of a shoe box. Right, Yeah, it looks bigger
to me, but I guess um I saw someone else
to describe it like a thick laptop size. Okay, again
with the computers, people just can't stop. It's the computer,
an ancient computer. On one side of the box, if
if it's standing like a shoe box on end. On
one side, there's a crank like just a small dial
(15:32):
with a little handle they would used to crank this
thing up. The handles missing. Now, by the way, this
is what you're describing is what it looked like originally. Right.
Oh yeah, Now it's just disintegrated blobs and chunks of things. Yeah.
So the knob on the side is what wound it
forward and backward. And uh, then you had a big
(15:53):
front side and a backside. All the gears are in
the middle contained their end. Yes, and again these are
gears with teeth between fifteen and twenty three of them
on a gear, and all of them. The number of
teeth that they have has to do with their relationship
to the other gears they interact with, that's right. So
(16:13):
they have all these different hands. If you wound it up,
it would engage these gears. Uh. Each of the hands
moves at a separate pace and represents what you said earlier,
the five planets and Earth in the moon basically Sun
and Sun and moon basically anything we can see from
Earth at this point, right, And these are the gears inside,
and the gears are physically representing how the say, the
(16:35):
Sun and the Moon interact. Well, now these are the hands, right,
but then they're driving the hands, and the hands have
a representation in the form of a colored orb on
the face of the actual mechanism the machine exactly. So
on the back side, you've got two more dial systems. UH.
One is a calendar of the lunar and solar eclipse,
and another one UM, basically, like you said, was the
(16:58):
sports calendar. The Olympics are coming up than four years
after that, there'll be more Olympics, so four years. So
on the front, it was at tracked the day right.
That was the big the big front face of it.
I believe it did. Um. And then on the back
when it's when it's tracking eclipses um that that actually
(17:20):
so chuck. When you make a clock, the whole purpose
of a clock is so any guy can come along
and be like, oh, it's this day right. So you
want your clock to be accurate. The problem is if
you're tracking just the solar calendar, you're tracking just the
movement of the moon, your clock is going to or
your calendar is eventually going to fall out a sink
(17:42):
and all of a sudden, something like one of the
solstic says, your summer solstice is gonna show up in
December after eighteen years, right. So to do that, and
this has been like one of the big things that
clockmakers and calendar makers have had to deal with forever.
You have to figure out how to reconcile the movement
of the sun and the moon with your calendar so
(18:03):
that it stays up to date literally right and mechanically
but also mathematically right. So several great thinkers figured out
that if you take um the tracking of the moon
and extrapolated by enough times, it will eventually sync up
(18:25):
years down the line with the solar calendar. I think
over the course of like nineteen years, and this is
what's called the metonic cycle. Right, there's like five hundred
and thirty four phases of the moon in one nineteen
year period, and if you can track that, then you
can keep your calendar in sync. This is the level
(18:47):
of sophistication that the the antick, THEA mechanism operates on.
And to this point, we did not realize that the
ancient Greeks had this level of understanding of astronomy. Yeah,
it was. It was a big It was a big
fine for a lot of reasons, and that's one of
them for sure. Yeah. And one of the reasons that
we know that they knew this and we're not just
(19:09):
kind of putting our own ideas onto it is when
they use that computer tomography, they found inscriptions on all
these different gears which basically said how they work and
what they track, which is another reason this find was
so amazing. It basically had an instruction manual engraved on it.
That's right, and we will talk more about that right
(19:29):
after this. All right, So you're talking about the inscriptions, um,
Like you said, it was a user's guide. If there's
(19:49):
going to be a sophisticated piece of equipment, like, uh,
this computer, it's gonna come with a book that says
here's how you use it. Uh. So the finding I mean,
they're doing a pretty good job of discovering the stuff
on their own, but then finding the user's guide and
piecing that together became even a bigger part of the puzzle.
It did. And then that user guy. It also too
(20:09):
if like you're an anthropologist from five years in the
future and you happened upon a user guide to a
mac or something, right, it also describes like the level
of technology that the people who built this computer had,
Like in writing, it says, this is what we know,
this is what we understand. So again, this backdated the
(20:30):
understanding of astronomy among the Greeks too, far earlier than
we'd ever given them credit for. And it confirmed a
lot of stuff that had been thrown out over the
years as flights of fancy your imagination by writers who
had cited this kind of understanding um of the people
of their time, and later historians were like, these people
were just just making up and it was a lucky guess.
(20:53):
This this mechanism has helped show No, these these guys
actually knew what they were talking about. Yeah. One of
those was UM. There was a belief, uh, well by
some but not held by others, that UM ancient Greeks
had calendars where they excluded certain days to adjust the
lengths of the months. A lot of people like, no,
no, no no, no, there's there's no way that they were
(21:16):
that sophisticated this machine basically, and the accompanying guide book
proved it to be true, which is pretty great. And
because of its sophistication, there a list of people from
that time that they think may have had a hand
in this UM. Of course, Archimedes, he's gonna be in
there anytime something specialist found. Yeah, and there's actually writing
(21:37):
about Archimedes creating a like a a sphere, a three
dimensional model that actually doesn't really sound like the antithera
mechanism now, but it will be on any list if
you find something that, like any mechanism, is sophisticated. Hipparchus,
who I think, I don't know if we talked about
him yet or not. He's a mathematician and astronomer, and uh,
(22:01):
I think he the time period worked out for him,
so he could have been one of the people involved.
My money's on him, you know, yeah, or his student
Poseidonest Okay, was that Posidonius? Yeah, I like Poseidoness. I'm
sure he did too, because that makes him sound like
a Greek god. Yeah. Uh. There are also some other hints,
(22:23):
you know, trying to piece together the mystery. UM. One
of the inscriptions refers to an athletic event in Rhodes,
which is where Hipparcus taught, where his school was. Yeah,
and there's a man named Alexander Jones. He's a specialist
at n y U and that's what he said. My
money's on roads. Is that that's where this thing came from, Yeah, Hipparcus, Yeah,
(22:45):
maybe Poseidoness. The other thing that helps is UM, well,
it doesn't help necessarily UM Hipparcus's case, but it kind
of excludes Archimedes. Some researchers um looked at all Babylonian
records of eclipses and tried to sink this thing up,
and apparently they were able to exclude hundreds of different
(23:08):
possibilities and settled on two oh five b c E
being the start date for the mechanism. Yeah, I think
it's a little older than they originally thought, right, Yeah,
they were thinking fifty two hundred BC, and they're like, no,
two oh five is probably the date that this thing
was intended to be set to. Because again, this thing's
(23:28):
tracking the movements of the bodies in the heavens based
on the movement of the sun in the moon, and
how do you track that by tracking eclipses? So you
would want to set it to an eclipse because there
has to be some starting point to set it to, right,
So they figured it was two oh five. Well, Archimedes,
as you remember, we did a whole episode on him.
(23:49):
We did someone the Death Ray. Yes, um, he was
killed by a Roman soldier in two twelve, um because
he wouldn't pay attention to the soldier who was telling
him to um, pay tension, I think. But he was
killed in two twelve, so that probably excludes him. He
was so smart he knew that of an eclipse was
coming in seven years and wanted his mechanism to start.
(24:11):
Then he was so broke he couldn't pay attention. Here
we hear that one. No, this is my first time
but hearing that joke. Yeah, yeah, those are good, you know.
In the burn contest or whatever your mama jokes. Yeah, yeah, kids,
it's a good one though. Uh what else? What else
you got here? Did not think that was going to
(24:33):
make an appearance in the UM. Well since then, there
have been uh ten models, at least ten um that
have been built kind of recreating this thing. Um. There
was a watchmaker that um got into it, and of
course that was a pretty uh the way the things
put together, it seems like a watching clockmaker would be
an ideal, stand it. Yeah, made one. Well, they made
(24:56):
three of this watch and it's it's like a watch
verse and of it. That's pretty amazing. It's pretty cool.
I wonder how much they went for those three. Oh,
I'm sure they were pretty cheap. Somebody made one out
of Legos. Yeah. Was it a Lego set or was
it just someone made a Lego model? Oh, they made
a Lego model. It was like an Apple engineer. I
(25:16):
didn't know. I thought it might have been a Lego set,
like a very obscure Lego set. Uh not yet. I'll
be the engineers, like, I'll sell you these plans Lego
if you want them. Old Kirk check. There's one thing
that um, it's amazing when we're like, wow, you know this,
this knowledge is even older than we we thought. And
a lot of people um point out that in the West, Yes,
(25:40):
it took until the fourteen the fourteenth century for this
knowledge to come about. We likely got it from um
Muslims Muslim scholars, but it's possible that it came to
the West via Muslim scholars from the Greeks. So this
knowledge was around the Muslims that were interacting with the
Weeks gained this knowledge and they had themselves until they
(26:05):
finally interacted with us in the West in the fourteenth century. Right,
it's pretty amazing. But other people are like, yeah, that's great.
Why didn't the Greeks build on this. If they had
this sophisticated and understanding of how to track time and
the movement of the heavenly bodies, why did they stop there? Well,
(26:28):
they may not have. They did, that's the thing. Well, no,
I mean until we find the next thing that was
years after that that we previously didn't know about. Now
the point is like, why didn't they build stuff that
survived and came down to this day and they didn't,
Like there's there's incontrovertibly they did not build on it
(26:48):
or else we would have it today. And Arthur C.
Clark is saying, if they had built on this level
of sophistication and it had continued uninterrupted today, we'd be
traveling amongst the stars by now, after two thousand years
of having this knowledge. I don't see how anyone can
say that, though, How can you say that they'll never
find another mechanism after this that built on that? You won't.
(27:12):
What I'm saying is that knowledge wasn't built on, and
built on, and built on and built on uninterrupted. Oh
so they may have built on. They could have, but
for what from what we understand that they didn't. My
money's on finding something else that makes a little more
sense out of this. Well, they did find something else.
In three a man in Beirut was in a bizarre
and found some weird geared mechanism, and they figured out
(27:34):
that it was a sixth century ce Um calendar, like
a geared calendar. It's the second oldest geared mechanism known
to humankind for now, after the anti Cathera mechanism. We
may find an entire civilization underwater. No, but you never know, alright,
(27:56):
you never know, You never know. I'm sure. Before they
on this, they were saying that they were never advanced
enough to make something like this. Yeah, the point is
that that they weren't advanced enough. The point is is
they didn't build on this advancement until we find out
that they have right. Well, whatever whatever came in and
broke that building on it and interrupted it, that was
(28:18):
That sucks because we could be far more advanced than
we are. It could have been a volcano that covered
a laboratory and ash that sunk underwater, and that's where
the underwater civilization has been. Yeah, you never know in
the lab Uh. If you want to know more about
the anti Kate Thera mechanism, you just try your hand
at spelling that. It's fun to say, isn't it. Yeah,
(28:40):
And it's easy to spell if he sounds um and
do that in the search bar at how stuff works.
And since they said search parts, time for listener, ma'am,
I'm gonna call this mea culpa. Hey, guys, absolutely love
stuff you should know and have listened to every episode
many more than once. You keep me company on many
a long commute. While I was listening to the Void
(29:00):
That Manuscript podcast, which was awesome, I noticed Chuck said
a possible explanation was mental illness. Josh said, yes, like
an autistic monk. I'm sure you know this, but autism
is a developmental disorder, not a mental illness. Behavioral therapist
who worked with autistic children. That makes me very sensitive
these matters. Thanks for your great work. My favorite ever
was Berlin Wall and then it's from Tricia Flowers, and
(29:23):
I think her subject line was I still love you guys.
Uh So, we've gotten quite a lot of feedback on this,
and I'll let you take it away. It was a mistake. Yeah,
it's totally misspoke. Yeah, I don't think that autism is
a form of mental illness. What I should have said
and meant to say was or an autistic monk or
(29:44):
a monk with autism, I think is the proper way
to put it. Yeah, so not like yeah, sometimes in
the heat of the moment, sure like or as but yes, no,
I don't think that those two are the same. Yeah,
So all apologies people. We we certainly don't think that,
and I always want to correct ourselves, so, especially when
(30:05):
something we'd say accidentally causes distress among people. There's no
and to let that stand. Agreed, yeah uh yeah, So
thank you Tricia. We appreciate you um writing in to
let us. We'll set us straight, call us out, whatever
you wanna call it in a very nice way. Yes uh.
And if you want to set us straight or say whatever,
(30:27):
you can get in touch with us via s y
s K podcast on Twitter. You can send us an email,
the Stuff Podcast, the House, Stuff Works dot com. You
can hang out with us on Facebook dot com, slash
stuff we should Know and has always hang out with
us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should
Know dot com For more on this and thousands of
(30:50):
other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot com
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
just Charles W. Chuck Bryant. So this is the stuff
you should know the podcast. Yes, indeed, Um, you know,
(00:23):
archaeology was the first word, first big word I could
spell early, because like two weeks old when you're spelling archaeology. Yeah,
I couldn't spell anything else for years and years, but
I could spell archaeology. I love archaeology. Yeah, me too.
It's one of my favorite things actually too, although I
didn't list that when I was asked what my favorite
(00:43):
things were in that one listener mail, and still it's
up there. Um, but you too, huh oh yeah, starting
with uh, well, starting with Indiana Jones. Yeah, that definitely
helps that that we were alive and at the right
age when those came out. Um, well, Chuck, there's a ship.
(01:04):
It's an unnamed ship as far as I know, that
went down in the g and c off the coast
of a tiny, teeny little spit of land called Anti
Cathera in Greece, in between Crete and the Greek mainland,
I believe, and um in nineteen o one or nine
hundred it was discovered and it actually ended up giving
(01:25):
birth to the field of um marine archaeology. Actually it
was the first shipwreck that was ever excavated archaeologically. Yeah,
I think I wrote an article on that way back
in the day. Underwater archaeology. It's a very tricky, I
would imagine, so because most of the stuff you find
is falling apart, Like the second you take it out
(01:47):
of water, it starts falling apart. Right, So they've gotten
really good now and imagine they were not as good
about it in nineteen hundreds about bringing stuff up still
in water, yeah, and transporting in water, same sea water,
display it in water to uh well know then they
start poking around in yeah, right water. Yeah, with the water.
(02:10):
It's pretty sensible. Um I could have come up with that,
I think with that method. Yeah, good for you. Um well,
So okay, anyway, this shipwreck that was discovered in discovered
actually by accident, right. Yeah. There was some sponge divers.
You know, sponge diving. It's a big deal. Apparently it
(02:34):
wasn't Greece. It was. That's where you had to get
sponges back in the day. Uh is in the ocean,
and they were the sponge divers who they actually got
blown off course by a bad storm and ended up
in that lovely part of town, and they said, boy,
this is great, let's just dive here. One guy dove down,
came back up and there. They weren't free diving at
(02:56):
this point, and actually had you can listen to her well,
it wasn't a diving bell, but underwater breathing apparatus is.
At this point. He came back and he's like, oh
my god, they're dead horses and dead men everywhere. Yeah,
and the boss is like, I don't know about that.
Let me go dive down there. He dives down and
comes up with a bronze hand and says, you big dummy.
(03:18):
They smacked the guy over the head with it. It's
a statue, a bunch of statues down there decomposing. And
then he went, wait, why are there a bunch of
statues down there? And they they said, well, let's figure out,
let's remember where the spot is and we'll just head
off to North Africa and do our sponge diving like
we were going to initially. Yeah, they still have to
make some dough, right, But when they came back, they
(03:39):
took the bronze arm and the location of the ship
to the Greek government. And the Greek government said, you
know what, this could be a big deal. We have
a lot of antiquities out there under the sea and
this might be some sort of treasure troups. So they
hired these sponge divers to go back and excavate this place,
(04:00):
and they found some pretty amazing stuff. In addition to
the bronze arm, they found all sorts of marble statues. Um.
They found a bronze statue of a young athlete. I
think it was like six ft tall, a little bigger
than life is what they call it. Um they found
a bust of a cynic, a philosopher, a very detailed
(04:20):
lifelike bust that's really neat. And um that was the
guy whose arm. That was his arm, Oh, it was
his arm. Okay. Um. And they found all manner of stuff,
some really cool stuff and brought it up and they
displayed it in the museum. And among this trove, um
there was a greatly overlooked item item number one five
(04:40):
zero eight seven. And um, it was this weird kind
of it looked almost like a kind of a clock
face in a wooden frame and no one knew what
it was, and compared to the amazing art that had
been brought up, it looked like a pile of garbage basically,
So they just piled it away um and it languished
(05:02):
for a while until it was um kind of rediscovered again. Yeah,
and giving credit where credit is due. The Sponge Team captain,
I think that's what they called themselves. He was captain, Yeah,
Sponge Team Captain, Demetrius Kantos. And then the cry baby
who dove down there and thought he saw dead people
(05:25):
was Elias Stadiatus. And if there's one thing I love,
it's Greek names. Love the names. Do you like those
as much as archaeology? Greek archaeologists that you're pretty much
flying in the upper atmosphere for me. Uh So those
were the dudes that led the Sponge team, and all
(05:46):
those antiquities, they're scattered about a little bit, but most
of them are in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, Greece.
Uh and also some in Switzerland, oddly enough, and then
some more in a different museum of underwater antiquity in Greece.
And the reason the Greeks went to this trouble and
didn't just say whatever. Who cares about a bronze arm.
(06:07):
Apparently they'd been defeated recently by the Ottoman Turks within
the last few years, and we're looking for a way
to restore some national pride. And what better way to
restore national pride than raising two thousand year old statues
of your you know, ancient gods that were made by
your predecessors. And not only statues, but um, lamps and
(06:29):
bowls and utensils and tools and just all sorts of stuff.
It was a treasure trove. Yeah. So, um, this this
site still is basically intact. Um. It's a it's the
shipwreck is over Um a couple of I think about
three d foot span, about the length of a football field.
And there's actually for a long time they thought it
(06:50):
was two ships, but they think actually no, it was
an enormous, massive ship that broke into two and is
um they've only just found the front. They found like
the cabin, they haven't even found the hold. And that
it was a huge grain ship that had been converted
to basically a treasure ship that was taking Greek antiquities
to Rome around sixty b c. E um. And it's sunk.
(07:15):
So they there's all these treasures that they haven't even
found yet. They dove on it in nineteen hundred and one,
Jacques Cousteau hit it up in nineteen fifty and then
again in nineteen and now there's the most sophisticated dives
that are being taken on it. Yes, he's on it UM.
As of two thousand and fourteen, there's an international team
(07:36):
that includes some people from Woods Hole Geographic Institute or
Oceanographic Institute UM who are really starting to figure this out. Yeah,
and you know, one of the reasons you're still doing
this is because, like you said, it's just a great
find no matter what. But the other reason is because
item number one zero eight seven a k A. The
(07:58):
h how's that pronounced again? Annikathera anacathera mechanism is UM
one of the most mysterious finds ever because nobody knows
who made it. Uh and until recently no one knew
exactly what it was. But now they pretty much figured
it out. Yeah. Well, so when they when they first
brought it up in N one UM again, it just
(08:20):
looked like some weird kind of kind of like a clock,
but it was in a wooden frame as the wooden
frame was exposed to the air, it's it split and
the stuff inside fell apart. And when it fell apart,
one of the directors of the museum, I believe spirit
On Stais another great name. Um, he looked inside and
(08:42):
realized that these are all like actually different bronze parts,
and they have inscriptions and they appear to be geared
teeth like precision gears. Right, Except that's impossible because that
technology didn't come along for well over a thousand years later, yes,
a thousand plus, like maybe fourteen hundred, two thousand years later, right,
(09:03):
So it pops up in the west about the fourteenth
century in Europe. So yeah, like you say, it's totally
impossible that this could be what what he's looking at,
not fifty or a hundred years. So some people said, Um,
this thing probably accidentally was dropped over this wreck site
and just happened to nestle in and make it seem
(09:24):
like it was part of this ancient shipwreck. Nope, No,
it was found underneath other debris in the shipwreck. So
that's virtually impossible. But it was so confounding, and it's
so completely undermined our understanding at the time of technology
like that and just the understanding of that kind of
precision engineering. Um that it was just set aside, like
(09:47):
no one knows what this says. Let's just pretend it
doesn't exist. Yeah. Uh, and that happened until about the
nineteen fifties. And uh, we'll take a little break here
and we'll get back to what happened in the nineteen
fifties right after this. Alright, so it's nineteen fifties. Everyone's
(10:17):
drunk at lunch, smoking cigarette, throwing trash out of their window, right,
and there's an impossible machine rotting away in a museum
in Greece, that's right. And that's when a man named
Derek Dislo Price. Uh so, you know what, this thing
is pretty neat and I think I'm gonna make this
my new obsession. So he spent years researching this thing
(10:40):
and basically said, I think it's some sort of weird
Uh he said computer. He meant, well, he didn't mean computer,
because it can't be a computer. Obviously it's not programmable now,
so it can't be a computer. But it's I mean
that words not terribly far off off. Yeah, it's not
(11:02):
a computer. So he's using the wrong word there. But
along with Dr c uh Man another great Greek name
Kara Kallos, he's a radiographer. He said, let's take some
X rays of this thing. In the nineteen seventy four
he published as Findings in Gears from the Greeks, which
he thought was gonna light the world on fire. But
(11:22):
it turns out people were a little scared, uh to say, Yeah,
this thing is predates these kind of precision gears by
well over a thousand years, So let's rethink everything we
know about this kind of technology. Everyone, No one wanted
to touch it with the tin footpole, is what I gathered.
It was kind of ignored the at the time. The
(11:42):
people who were studying ancient Greece were studying their written documents, right,
they weren't studying like artifacts, like physical relics or anything
like that, and they certainly weren't really up on the
ancient Greek technology technology. Um. And so yeah, he wrote
this this book and just expected it to change the
(12:02):
world because he really had approached it from a very
scientific standpoint. When they finally released his book in the seventies, right,
his theory on what it was was correct. Yeah, he
theorized that It was a I'm going to use the
word computer alright, a mechanism. It was a mechanism with
UM at one point up to seventy two different precise gears,
(12:25):
two gears that all interacted with one another to track
the movement of the celestial bodies, the five planets that
were visible to the naked eye, the Sun, the Moon,
It tracked eclipses solar and lunar um. And it also
um it tracked the Olympic Games just as an added bonus. Well,
(12:49):
if you're gonna have a astronomical calculator, you might as
well throw in a sports calendar. Yeah, you know, might
as well. Uh, and so the whole thing again, this
thing should not have existed, like it wasn't for another
four years before anything like this appeared in the West. Um.
(13:10):
So it shouldn't have been which was another reason why
a lot of people weren't like, yes, this is a
great book Gears from the Greeks. It changed everything. They
were like, you're totally full of it. And this poor guy,
Um Price was not helped at all by a guy
named Eric van Danikin right. Yeah, he wrote a book
in uh nineteen sixty eight called Chariots of the Gods,
(13:35):
and in that he proposed that, um, there are aliens
who have been bringing us technological gifts to Earth and
this is one of them. And everyone this was a
really popular book, so he got all the headlines with
just a completely fabricated story. Yeah, it was like it
was the birth of the interest in ufology and the
Bermuda Triangle. The Naski lines are um landing strips, that
(14:01):
kind of stuff. Right, So when this guy came along
and put his stamp of um nuttiness, I guess if
certainly interesting. That whole Time Life Mysteries series definitely came
out of this von Dannikin's work kind of thing, but
it had nothing to do with any kind of academy
(14:21):
or scholarliness, right, so he really helped put the kai
bosh on Price's work. This gears from the Greeks, and
it languished for a while, um for another couple of decades,
I believe, right, Yeah, that's right. It wasn't until the
mid two thousand's that they decided, you know what, we
had this great technology now called CT scanning, computed UH tomography,
(14:47):
and what we can do with this stuff? We can
actually get inside this thing. And there are videos of
this actually being done on the mechanism. It's really cool looking.
You can like watch it unfold in real time. And
they basedly figured out from the inside out how this
thing worked and how it operated. And it is as follows.
There's a picture like a a wooden box about the
(15:11):
size of a shoe box. Right, Yeah, it looks bigger
to me, but I guess um I saw someone else
to describe it like a thick laptop size. Okay, again
with the computers, people just can't stop. It's the computer,
an ancient computer. On one side of the box, if
if it's standing like a shoe box on end. On
one side, there's a crank like just a small dial
(15:32):
with a little handle they would used to crank this
thing up. The handles missing. Now, by the way, this
is what you're describing is what it looked like originally. Right.
Oh yeah, Now it's just disintegrated blobs and chunks of things. Yeah.
So the knob on the side is what wound it
forward and backward. And uh, then you had a big
(15:53):
front side and a backside. All the gears are in
the middle contained their end. Yes, and again these are
gears with teeth between fifteen and twenty three of them
on a gear, and all of them. The number of
teeth that they have has to do with their relationship
to the other gears they interact with, that's right. So
(16:13):
they have all these different hands. If you wound it up,
it would engage these gears. Uh. Each of the hands
moves at a separate pace and represents what you said earlier,
the five planets and Earth in the moon basically Sun
and Sun and moon basically anything we can see from
Earth at this point, right, And these are the gears inside,
and the gears are physically representing how the say, the
(16:35):
Sun and the Moon interact. Well, now these are the hands, right,
but then they're driving the hands, and the hands have
a representation in the form of a colored orb on
the face of the actual mechanism the machine exactly. So
on the back side, you've got two more dial systems. UH.
One is a calendar of the lunar and solar eclipse,
and another one UM, basically, like you said, was the
(16:58):
sports calendar. The Olympics are coming up than four years
after that, there'll be more Olympics, so four years. So
on the front, it was at tracked the day right.
That was the big the big front face of it.
I believe it did. Um. And then on the back
when it's when it's tracking eclipses um that that actually
(17:20):
so chuck. When you make a clock, the whole purpose
of a clock is so any guy can come along
and be like, oh, it's this day right. So you
want your clock to be accurate. The problem is if
you're tracking just the solar calendar, you're tracking just the
movement of the moon, your clock is going to or
your calendar is eventually going to fall out a sink
(17:42):
and all of a sudden, something like one of the
solstic says, your summer solstice is gonna show up in
December after eighteen years, right. So to do that, and
this has been like one of the big things that
clockmakers and calendar makers have had to deal with forever.
You have to figure out how to reconcile the movement
of the sun and the moon with your calendar so
(18:03):
that it stays up to date literally right and mechanically
but also mathematically right. So several great thinkers figured out
that if you take um the tracking of the moon
and extrapolated by enough times, it will eventually sync up
(18:25):
years down the line with the solar calendar. I think
over the course of like nineteen years, and this is
what's called the metonic cycle. Right, there's like five hundred
and thirty four phases of the moon in one nineteen
year period, and if you can track that, then you
can keep your calendar in sync. This is the level
(18:47):
of sophistication that the the antick, THEA mechanism operates on.
And to this point, we did not realize that the
ancient Greeks had this level of understanding of astronomy. Yeah,
it was. It was a big It was a big
fine for a lot of reasons, and that's one of
them for sure. Yeah. And one of the reasons that
we know that they knew this and we're not just
(19:09):
kind of putting our own ideas onto it is when
they use that computer tomography, they found inscriptions on all
these different gears which basically said how they work and
what they track, which is another reason this find was
so amazing. It basically had an instruction manual engraved on it.
That's right, and we will talk more about that right
(19:29):
after this. All right, So you're talking about the inscriptions, um,
Like you said, it was a user's guide. If there's
(19:49):
going to be a sophisticated piece of equipment, like, uh,
this computer, it's gonna come with a book that says
here's how you use it. Uh. So the finding I mean,
they're doing a pretty good job of discovering the stuff
on their own, but then finding the user's guide and
piecing that together became even a bigger part of the puzzle.
It did. And then that user guy. It also too
(20:09):
if like you're an anthropologist from five years in the
future and you happened upon a user guide to a
mac or something, right, it also describes like the level
of technology that the people who built this computer had,
Like in writing, it says, this is what we know,
this is what we understand. So again, this backdated the
(20:30):
understanding of astronomy among the Greeks too, far earlier than
we'd ever given them credit for. And it confirmed a
lot of stuff that had been thrown out over the
years as flights of fancy your imagination by writers who
had cited this kind of understanding um of the people
of their time, and later historians were like, these people
were just just making up and it was a lucky guess.
(20:53):
This this mechanism has helped show No, these these guys
actually knew what they were talking about. Yeah. One of
those was UM. There was a belief, uh, well by
some but not held by others, that UM ancient Greeks
had calendars where they excluded certain days to adjust the
lengths of the months. A lot of people like, no,
no, no no, no, there's there's no way that they were
(21:16):
that sophisticated this machine basically, and the accompanying guide book
proved it to be true, which is pretty great. And
because of its sophistication, there a list of people from
that time that they think may have had a hand
in this UM. Of course, Archimedes, he's gonna be in
there anytime something specialist found. Yeah, and there's actually writing
(21:37):
about Archimedes creating a like a a sphere, a three
dimensional model that actually doesn't really sound like the antithera
mechanism now, but it will be on any list if
you find something that, like any mechanism, is sophisticated. Hipparchus,
who I think, I don't know if we talked about
him yet or not. He's a mathematician and astronomer, and uh,
(22:01):
I think he the time period worked out for him,
so he could have been one of the people involved.
My money's on him, you know, yeah, or his student
Poseidonest Okay, was that Posidonius? Yeah, I like Poseidoness. I'm
sure he did too, because that makes him sound like
a Greek god. Yeah. Uh. There are also some other hints,
(22:23):
you know, trying to piece together the mystery. UM. One
of the inscriptions refers to an athletic event in Rhodes,
which is where Hipparcus taught, where his school was. Yeah,
and there's a man named Alexander Jones. He's a specialist
at n y U and that's what he said. My
money's on roads. Is that that's where this thing came from, Yeah, Hipparcus, Yeah,
(22:45):
maybe Poseidoness. The other thing that helps is UM, well,
it doesn't help necessarily UM Hipparcus's case, but it kind
of excludes Archimedes. Some researchers um looked at all Babylonian
records of eclipses and tried to sink this thing up,
and apparently they were able to exclude hundreds of different
(23:08):
possibilities and settled on two oh five b c E
being the start date for the mechanism. Yeah, I think
it's a little older than they originally thought, right, Yeah,
they were thinking fifty two hundred BC, and they're like, no,
two oh five is probably the date that this thing
was intended to be set to. Because again, this thing's
(23:28):
tracking the movements of the bodies in the heavens based
on the movement of the sun in the moon, and
how do you track that by tracking eclipses? So you
would want to set it to an eclipse because there
has to be some starting point to set it to, right,
So they figured it was two oh five. Well, Archimedes,
as you remember, we did a whole episode on him.
(23:49):
We did someone the Death Ray. Yes, um, he was
killed by a Roman soldier in two twelve, um because
he wouldn't pay attention to the soldier who was telling
him to um, pay tension, I think. But he was
killed in two twelve, so that probably excludes him. He
was so smart he knew that of an eclipse was
coming in seven years and wanted his mechanism to start.
(24:11):
Then he was so broke he couldn't pay attention. Here
we hear that one. No, this is my first time
but hearing that joke. Yeah, yeah, those are good, you know.
In the burn contest or whatever your mama jokes. Yeah, yeah, kids,
it's a good one though. Uh what else? What else
you got here? Did not think that was going to
(24:33):
make an appearance in the UM. Well since then, there
have been uh ten models, at least ten um that
have been built kind of recreating this thing. Um. There
was a watchmaker that um got into it, and of
course that was a pretty uh the way the things
put together, it seems like a watching clockmaker would be
an ideal, stand it. Yeah, made one. Well, they made
(24:56):
three of this watch and it's it's like a watch
verse and of it. That's pretty amazing. It's pretty cool.
I wonder how much they went for those three. Oh,
I'm sure they were pretty cheap. Somebody made one out
of Legos. Yeah. Was it a Lego set or was
it just someone made a Lego model? Oh, they made
a Lego model. It was like an Apple engineer. I
(25:16):
didn't know. I thought it might have been a Lego set,
like a very obscure Lego set. Uh not yet. I'll
be the engineers, like, I'll sell you these plans Lego
if you want them. Old Kirk check. There's one thing
that um, it's amazing when we're like, wow, you know this,
this knowledge is even older than we we thought. And
a lot of people um point out that in the West, Yes,
(25:40):
it took until the fourteen the fourteenth century for this
knowledge to come about. We likely got it from um
Muslims Muslim scholars, but it's possible that it came to
the West via Muslim scholars from the Greeks. So this
knowledge was around the Muslims that were interacting with the
Weeks gained this knowledge and they had themselves until they
(26:05):
finally interacted with us in the West in the fourteenth century. Right,
it's pretty amazing. But other people are like, yeah, that's great.
Why didn't the Greeks build on this. If they had
this sophisticated and understanding of how to track time and
the movement of the heavenly bodies, why did they stop there? Well,
(26:28):
they may not have. They did, that's the thing. Well, no,
I mean until we find the next thing that was
years after that that we previously didn't know about. Now
the point is like, why didn't they build stuff that
survived and came down to this day and they didn't,
Like there's there's incontrovertibly they did not build on it
(26:48):
or else we would have it today. And Arthur C.
Clark is saying, if they had built on this level
of sophistication and it had continued uninterrupted today, we'd be
traveling amongst the stars by now, after two thousand years
of having this knowledge. I don't see how anyone can
say that, though, How can you say that they'll never
find another mechanism after this that built on that? You won't.
(27:12):
What I'm saying is that knowledge wasn't built on, and
built on, and built on and built on uninterrupted. Oh
so they may have built on. They could have, but
for what from what we understand that they didn't. My
money's on finding something else that makes a little more
sense out of this. Well, they did find something else.
In three a man in Beirut was in a bizarre
and found some weird geared mechanism, and they figured out
(27:34):
that it was a sixth century ce Um calendar, like
a geared calendar. It's the second oldest geared mechanism known
to humankind for now, after the anti Cathera mechanism. We
may find an entire civilization underwater. No, but you never know, alright,
(27:56):
you never know, You never know. I'm sure. Before they
on this, they were saying that they were never advanced
enough to make something like this. Yeah, the point is
that that they weren't advanced enough. The point is is
they didn't build on this advancement until we find out
that they have right. Well, whatever whatever came in and
broke that building on it and interrupted it, that was
(28:18):
That sucks because we could be far more advanced than
we are. It could have been a volcano that covered
a laboratory and ash that sunk underwater, and that's where
the underwater civilization has been. Yeah, you never know in
the lab Uh. If you want to know more about
the anti Kate Thera mechanism, you just try your hand
at spelling that. It's fun to say, isn't it. Yeah,
(28:40):
And it's easy to spell if he sounds um and
do that in the search bar at how stuff works.
And since they said search parts, time for listener, ma'am,
I'm gonna call this mea culpa. Hey, guys, absolutely love
stuff you should know and have listened to every episode
many more than once. You keep me company on many
a long commute. While I was listening to the Void
(29:00):
That Manuscript podcast, which was awesome, I noticed Chuck said
a possible explanation was mental illness. Josh said, yes, like
an autistic monk. I'm sure you know this, but autism
is a developmental disorder, not a mental illness. Behavioral therapist
who worked with autistic children. That makes me very sensitive
these matters. Thanks for your great work. My favorite ever
was Berlin Wall and then it's from Tricia Flowers, and
(29:23):
I think her subject line was I still love you guys.
Uh So, we've gotten quite a lot of feedback on this,
and I'll let you take it away. It was a mistake. Yeah,
it's totally misspoke. Yeah, I don't think that autism is
a form of mental illness. What I should have said
and meant to say was or an autistic monk or
(29:44):
a monk with autism, I think is the proper way
to put it. Yeah, so not like yeah, sometimes in
the heat of the moment, sure like or as but yes, no,
I don't think that those two are the same. Yeah,
So all apologies people. We we certainly don't think that,
and I always want to correct ourselves, so, especially when
(30:05):
something we'd say accidentally causes distress among people. There's no
and to let that stand. Agreed, yeah uh yeah, So
thank you Tricia. We appreciate you um writing in to
let us. We'll set us straight, call us out, whatever
you wanna call it in a very nice way. Yes uh.
And if you want to set us straight or say whatever,
(30:27):
you can get in touch with us via s y
s K podcast on Twitter. You can send us an email,
the Stuff Podcast, the House, Stuff Works dot com. You
can hang out with us on Facebook dot com, slash
stuff we should Know and has always hang out with
us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should
Know dot com For more on this and thousands of
(30:50):
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40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.