August 2, 2018 • 54 mins
The U.S. military draft is far more interesting than you'd think. The process of conscription can get quite complicated, but we're here to clear it up for you. We'll also talk a bit about whether or not this could ever happen again.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there.
So this is Stuff you should know. Military edition actually
(00:21):
more bureaucracy edition than anything else. Yeah, and I found this,
uh for a bureaucratic episode. I found it way more
interesting than I thought I would. Those usually turn out
to be more interesting than you'd think. You know, Yeah,
I can't think of one that we've done bureaucracy in
the bureaucracy suite that wasn't like, this is surprisingly interesting. Yeah,
(00:42):
this is this is pretty good. Yeah, agreed. Because I
registered for the Selective Service, as did you, I assume,
oh yeah, unless you're you've been dodging all these years.
I finally made it, but I never really gave it
much thought because dudes like you and I in today's
modern era don't really you know. When I registered, I
was like, yeah, whatever, this will probably mean nothing, but
(01:04):
it's really interesting when you dig into it and what
it could have met or could mean. When I registered,
I was like wait, what what my what's going on here? Again?
And my dad was like just just do it. It's fine.
You'll get in trouble if you don't. I was like, Oh,
I don't want to get in trouble. Was your dad
in the military. Yeah, he was their force during Vietnam,
right before Vietnam, because my dad did not go to Vietnam,
(01:30):
and I think I always felt weird about it. He
would never talk to me about that, but that's the
sense that I got. Did you grow up in Canada
for like the first part of your life or anything. No,
but he was and as you'll find out throughout the
course of this episode about the various deferments and exceptions
and things, he was a lone breadwinner for a family
(01:50):
of one and then two and eventually three in college
studying to be a teacher, so he had a lot
of he checked a lot of boxes that will get
you out of the war. Right, Well, they probably talked
him out of there, like, buddy, your life's hard enough
as it is. Yeah, maybe that that would be a
hardship deferment. Right. Well, I guess it depends, because teachers
(02:15):
were something, as we'll learn later in the show, we're
very very much valued. Oh yeah, and if you were
in college and if you were the bread winner of
a family, so he had a he had a few
things going in his favor. I guess if you're looking
to not go to war, Yeah, all he had to
be was a non US citizen living in the United States,
(02:36):
from a country with a treaty with the US, who
was also morally opposed to the war, and with a
criminal record. That'd be about it. He might have been
a little too old, actually too now that I think
about it. I mean he could have been if he
was in grad was at grad school. I think he
was in grad school. Yeah, he might have been, because
I think it was back then we're talking now. I'm
(02:56):
I think it was eighteen to twenty five, is what
it was. Yeah, so yeah, he could have been beyond that. Yeah,
then all those boxes were checked. I think he probably was.
So in case you guys didn't pick up on this yet,
we're talking about the draft. That's what it's called in America.
But America's far from the only country that's ever had
a draft. It's actually pretty old concept um dating back
(03:18):
as far I think I've seen as far back is
like the second century BC China. Um. I think the
king dynasty or ging. How do you pronounce it with
the q. I think I would have looked that up.
I think it's how do you spell it jing? Q
q i n g q i n g, Well the jing,
(03:38):
I think it's jing. I think so anyway, one of
the dynasty's towards the second century BC, China had conscription,
and it's I think just about every civilization UM with
a military said oh, that's a pretty good idea, let's
try that. So basically everybody's tried it from time to time,
and the US has had drafts multiple times, some a war,
(04:00):
but the North and the South had drafts. Um in
the I think the War of eighteen twelve, there's even one. Um,
the First World War there's a draft. Second World War
there's a draft. And then most recently, the draft was
in Vietnam from nineteen sixty one to nineteen seventy three.
I think, right, yeah, and we'll get to the h
(04:21):
Did you read that New York Times article that I sent?
Oh boy, that was a good one. Well, we'll get
to the ins and outs a little bit at the
end with that article. But um, prior to Vietnam, the
draft had generally been a sort of roundly accepted kind
of uh good thing to most people. So it really
(04:42):
wasn't until Vietnam where we found ourselves with a lot
of different social forces meeting up with the war that
a lot of people didn't believe in. Is where we
had a sort of our first big backlash against the
idea of a draft. That was where I I mean,
that's if the wards just being utterly unpopular almost across
(05:03):
the board, is is where I saw was the big
reason why, um, the resistance to the draft first began
because of Vietnam. Up to that point, wars were generally
popular among the majority of Americans. Yeah, and we also
need to shout out one Genghis Khan or Chenghis or
(05:24):
Chengis Kane because I think we mentioned in that episode
that he he used to draft, right kind of. I
think that was more like a join me or die
kind of thing, which I guess I guess that qualifies
as conscription. Well in America's join me or go to jail.
So yeah, it's close. Yeah, it's it's close. So yeah,
(05:44):
you're right, Um, he definitely had that. And he's actually
the tie that binds this episode and the next one too, Uh,
the one on the Pony Express because he had a
fast male service on horseback. Remember, Yeah, And it's probably
not fair to say that he had a draft, because
you're right. It was more just like come aboard or
(06:04):
i'll have your head, right, But I did want to
mention that he There was another movie that we missed.
There was a movie not too long ago called Mongol. Oh. Yes,
supposedly it was like a good one with a legitimately
good actor in there. Yeah, it was a weird They
covered it on the Friendly Fire Movie podcast that I
listened to, and it's, um, supposedly pretty good. I want
(06:25):
to check it out. It was like a weird like
a Russian slash Kazakhstani production that did feature Asian actors,
only produced by Baratt. I don't know, but it was
supposed to be pretty good. I'll check it out. Yeah,
I don't want to see it too. Is it on
Netflix or Prime? I don't know about that. Oh, by
the way, Chuck, I feel so missed. Happy Prime Day?
(06:47):
Is it Prime Day? Oh? Of course it's a Prime Day.
How could you not? And already bought up my stuff?
That was some buzz marketing of all time. So let's
talk about this draft. Okay, Sure, and well, I think
we'll hold like the pros and cons debate for later. Off,
let's just talk about what the draft is in America.
How about that, because I think it bears a pretty
(07:08):
strong resemblance to drafts in other countries. Yeah. So in
the United States, in our military, now this this article
is a little outdated, but um, I believe for this year,
our budget is about one point three one million active
duty personnel and about eight hundred and fifteen thousand reservists. Uh,
And this is what our volunteer military force looks like.
(07:33):
But in certain times, uh, we have a draft. They
also call it conscription. And that's when we feel like
and you know, there's debate on whether or not this
will ever happen again, but that's when the President and
Congress feels like we need to call up people involuntarily
because we need more bodies. Yeah, the standing volunteer force
(07:56):
that we have right now is considered more than enough
for or at least enough for the current peacetime. Um. Yeah,
if you take if you take the endless wars that
aren't technically wars because Congress never declared war out of
the equation that we're in peacetime right, and so these
these guys, especially with our advancing and I use guys
(08:18):
in the gender neutral sense, um, especially with the advancing
technology that's being used in the military. Now, Um, that's
actually pretty healthy amount of active duty people. But yes,
if there were something that happened, say another World war
or something, there's there's a pretty good chance that a
draft is going to get started pretty quickly. And um
(08:40):
for that to happen, the government would say, okay, selective
service system, do your thing, and the selective service system
would kick in action. And that this is what I
did not know, Chuck. Jimmy Carter is the one who
activated the selective service system. Did you know that, oh,
when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan Because the s draft was
in nineteen seventy three, uh, and it was just done.
(09:04):
And then in nineteen eighty when the Afghani or when
the um the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Carter was really on
edge about that, and in ninety one he just basically
activated the selective service system. And that's what you were
talking about earlier, where where you're eighteen or the first
time you're eligible between the ages of eighteen and twenty five,
(09:25):
you go to your post office, you go to your
government website, you go there's several places you can go,
and you basically fell out a card saying I am
an eighteen year old American citizen or a resident alien
or any number of things. Um, and it's specifically a man,
and here's my info. Give me a call if you
(09:46):
guys ever run into any trouble. Yeah, and so, uh,
the s S S the Selective Service System is who
was in charge of basically operating and and plugging in
the draft and overseeing it if it ever gets reinstated,
right right, So you they have really ultimately this this
article does a good job of pointing this out. The
(10:08):
Selective Service System is basically just a system of names
and addresses kept on file of all um American men
eligible to be drafted. So basically between the age of
eighteen and twenty five. Yeah, so you mentioned women. Um,
(10:29):
about five or six years ago there was the repeal
of the ground combat exclusion and they've can since then
have been working on basically opening up. Uh. I don't
know about all jobs, but I think most or maybe
all jobs two women as well as men in the military.
But you still despite that, they have not made the
change where women have to register with SSS. Yeah, it
(10:53):
came like pretty close in committee I think last year,
and it didn't make it out of committee, but um,
it showed a lot of resolve to that's probably going
to change in the next couple of years, I would guess,
especially now that women are in combat roles in the military.
There's that was traditionally the excuse for why they were
not eligible for selective service. Um. But now that they're
(11:17):
doing combat roles in the volunteer Army or the volunteer military,
then it just makes sense that they would be eligible
for the draft too. Yeah. And right now I'm looking
at the chart. Uh, this print out here has got
one to three, four or five, six, seven, eight categories
where you do not need to. Uh. I was about
(11:39):
to say, turn yourself in. It's a Fredian slip where
you don't have to register. So if you remember the
Armed Forces on active duty, obviously you don't need to.
If you're a cadet and midshipment at service academies or
the Coast Guard Academy, you do not need to. If
you're a student and the officer Procurement program at the
Citadel North Georgia College and Stay University, Norwich, Virginia, v
(12:02):
m I, Texas A and M Virginia Polytech in State University.
You don't have to. Uh, let me see here under
immigrants lawful nonimmigrants on current non immigrant visas. If you're
a seasonal agricultural worker on an H two A visa,
you don't have to. If you're incarcerated or hospitalized or institutionalized,
(12:25):
you do not need to under handicapped physically or mentally. Uh.
You don't need to if you're continually confined to a residence,
hospital or institution, but you do have to if you
were able to function in public with or without assistance.
And then the newest, the latest and greatest transgender people category.
(12:48):
If you're an individual who are born female and have
changed to male, you do not have to. But if
you're born male and change your gender to female, you
do have to. Uh. So that's pretty much flies in
the face of trans that Yeah. Wow, okay, I'm not
surprised by that, but that's that seems a little putsy
(13:09):
dems the rules right now. Yeah, So, one of the
things that stuck out to me, Chuck, was that, um,
if you are a a citizen of another country living
in the United States, you have to register. If you're
a male UM you have to register for this UM
so for selective service. But if your country has a
(13:32):
treaty with the US that says, if you guys ever
do the draft or whatever, we don't want our people
sucked into that. Uh, the U s will honor that.
You still have to go UM register. But then when
they draft you, you can you get an exemption. But
if you do get that exemption, you can never be
a citizen of the United States. And if you ever
leave the country, you might have trouble getting back in.
(13:53):
And it is how this Elective Service puts it, which
I would say that means you will definitely have trouble
getting back in probably, so you know, uh, and you
said eighteen to twenty five is the age where you
have to register within thirty days of reaching eligibility. So
in the case of your eighteenth birthday, within thirty days
of that, or let's say you're in like one of
(14:15):
the exclusions, like you're in military school, but you drop out,
but you're still eighteen to twenty five, then it's when
within thirty days of that dropout date, right, and then yeah,
whether it's eighteen thirty days of your eighteenth birthday or
thirty days of the first time you become eligible, up
to your twenty six birthday. Correct. And then if you
just say I don't feel like going today and you
(14:38):
keep putting it off for you know, seven seven years um,
when you get to be twenty six along the way,
you can do it late and they'll say, hey, thanks
for coming in. We're going to forgive this. If you
wait until after your twenty six and you never get
around to doing it, like as it stands on the books,
you can be prosecuted for up to five years in
(15:00):
prison in a quarter of a million dollar fine. You
can also get that same penalty if you encourage someone
not to sign up for selective service, But apparently they
are not very big on prosecuting that kind of stuff,
and instead what they tend to do is they withhold
um federal job opportunities, some state job opportunities, federal student
(15:23):
aid for college, federal work training program. If you're a
defense contract or any kind of contractor you need a
security clearance, you can kiss that goodbye. So there's stuff
they can do short of finding you two fifty thousand
dollars of putting um in jail for five years. Um,
but there are penalties for just not ever filling out
this little card. Yeah, and I read, uh, and especially
(15:46):
in that Times article that even during the Vietnam War,
like famous cases aside, like let's say, you know, Muhammad Ali,
which makes a lot of news, like, they didn't really
want pool that didn't like he didn't have to be
all gung ho, but they didn't want people that were
just miserable about the whole thing. Well, yeah, I saw
(16:09):
that that was one of the when well we'll talk
about it later, but like that, you know, they there's
like that that wouldn't make a good soldier. It wouldn't
serve anyone. So generally they wanted people who are at
least like, all right, well I'll do this all the
way up to like sign me up, I want to kill. Right.
Did we take a break? Yeah, let's I think that's
our cue when I say I want to kill. All right,
(16:31):
we'll be right back after this, Okay, So let's say that.
(17:03):
Um that there. I saw that the head of Selective
Service said basically it would take a Martian invasion to
activate the draft. Again, I think it's how she put it. So, um,
if that happened, if we were invaded by Martians and
the draft did start. One of the things that carter
Um set up in by activating the Selective Service was
(17:27):
to um, it's basically this government bureaucracy that's just waiting
to spring into action, and it's kind of like kept
on ice. There's a hundred people working at this agency.
They got about twenty three million dollars a year in funding,
and um, they just keep it at at a ready state,
but it's not actually doing what it's designed to do.
(17:48):
It's just taking in information, names, addresses, all that stuff,
and then um, but if it were ever activated, it
would kind of like it would be like one of
those little dinosaur sponges. You put water on it and
it grows into a big dinosaur sponge. That's basically what
would happen with the S S S. Yeah, so they would,
like our article points out, they would kick into what
(18:09):
you would call draft mode and they would conducted national
draft lottery. And you know, back in the Vietnam era,
this was a this is a dicey proposition to watch
on television what looks like a money lottery. You know,
picking numbers, and this is how it how it goes.
(18:30):
It's developed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology,
and I assume this is how it would still go today. Right, Yeah,
this is the current incarnation of the s s S.
Al Right, so computer is going to print out all
the dates in the current year in random mortar. Put
those dates and little little capsules. So interesting how they
(18:50):
do this. They really look like more like ping pong
balls to me. I know, I'm saying, it looks like
you could be a winner, right, except you're not. But
who calls it a cap soul? I don't know whoever,
Tom Harris, he's old school. Yeah, I guess he's a weirdo.
Maybe he's never played ping pong. Uh. Then the computer
(19:13):
prints out one through three, six for each day of
the year in random mortar, puts those in ping pong balls.
The captive souls containing dates are loaded into one drum.
The others are loaded into another drum. They spend that thing.
They spend the big wheel. I think it's puffed by air.
Oh is it? I think so? I was just trying
(19:33):
to make a little more like I said, twenty three
million in funding a year, right, they can afford the
air puff. They're being inspected and observed this whole time
to make sure everything's going as planned. And then what
happens on TV. Okay, so the official who's running the thing,
and again yeah, they have like they have TV there
to make sure that this is documented and above the
(19:55):
boards and all that stuff. And when the official pulls
out the ball or the capsule i'm sorry from one
machine and then a capsule from another machine, and they
read them out laud. So for example, if the number
from the one machine with all the dates of the
year in it says April, and the other the other
(20:17):
machine has UM three hundred and sixty five or sixty six.
If it's a leap year, and that says number forty two,
then that means that every male who is eligible for
the draft that turns twenty on April twenty two of
that year will be in the forties second group to
receive their draft notices. Yeah, they start I guess the
(20:39):
ideal age that they feel as fair as twenty years old, right,
So that's where they start with the draft, because again
remember it's between eighteen and twenty five you're eligible. But
they yeah, they start with the twenty year olds, and
then they do this so over and over again, for
all three hundred and sixty five or sixty six days
of the year. They pair a date of that year
(20:59):
with a number, and that's the people whose twentieth birthday
falls on that year are the ones who get that number.
They're in that number group. So if January was number one,
than anybody born on January would be the first to
get the draft notices. And when they're doing this, they're there.
(21:20):
They're probably calling up enough people that multiple groups, say
groups one through a hundred and fifty are all going
to get draft notices right out of the gate. But
then as they like, Congress and the President asked for
a specific number of troops, and then once they reach
that number, the draft notices stopped getting sent out. And
(21:41):
then if they say, well, we need more people, they'll
start going back to the um. The sequence of call
is what it's called uh. And then they go to
the next group, in the next group, of the next
group until they keep fulfilling these numbers, and then when
they run out of twenty year olds, then they go
to other age groups. Yeah, they move up from that
point to one, and you know, let's just say they
keep needing people, it would go twenty one through. Then
(22:04):
if they run out of twenty five year olds, A,
that means we're in big trouble as a country. The
martians are winning, then they hop back to age nineteen,
and then if the most dire circumstances comes around, then
they hop back finally to eighteen year olds. Yes, so
that's that's eighteen to twenty five year olds. Yeah, have
(22:28):
just been gone through in the military basically is which
has happened If they go get down to the eighteen
year olds. Yeah, So then if your name is called, uh,
they are you were sent to a or your report
I guess to a regional military entrance processing station. And
I'm sure they call it something different, like they have
(22:50):
some cute short name for it, REMS. And I'll bet
this one is a REMPS. I'll bet it's REMPS. You
think maybe you know my brother in law's and the Marines,
And it's astounding how many uh what are those called
not contractions but acronym acronyms for everything. It's unbelievable. They
(23:11):
hate saying whole words of the military. Well, it's like
another language. And then when he's talking to me, he'll
say the acronym and then the real thing, but he just,
you know, he can't help but say the acronym. Well sure,
you know, do you ever point out, like how much
time he just wasted saying both, Yeah, I do that
all the time. He loves it, sir. Uh. So then
they report to this uh rim epps or rim up, No,
(23:36):
it would be rim EPs. Yeah. And this is where
you know, you undergo your physical, your your psych evaluation,
your mental and moral evaluation, and the doctor says, you know,
you can either keep going forward or hey, you know
you're wealthy and you have bone spurs, so maybe we'll
we'll hold you out. He really wanted to big your
(23:59):
response on that. And huh, I don't know. I don't
know what I want anymore. Uh. But if you're fit
for service, then you have ten days from that point
if you want to file an exemption, a claim for
exemption or postponement or deferment. Uh. And then from that
point forward, if you want a special classification, then you
(24:20):
are you go through that whole process. Yes. So one
of the other things that the selective service system does
is um so it's bringing in, it's bringing in all
the people who are eligible for the for the draft
and making sure they get evaluated to see if they're
fit for service. And then it's also handling and administering
the exemption and postponement and deferment process too. It's like
(24:43):
two separate streams. It's one stream and then it breaks
into two streams. One stream goes into the military, the
other one gets sorted out. Right. Yes, So if you
are um, if you're say like a high school student
or something like that, UM, and you file that that
ten days, a uh claim for exemption or whatever. You'll
(25:04):
just send in a piece of paper, maybe something from
your high school that says, uh, now, Josh is still
in high school, so he's he shouldn't be going into
the draft, and they will say, here's your exemption, kid,
actually twenty he's in high school. Don't ask, That would
be right, don't ask, don't tell um. And that would
be a postponement, I think, is what that would be,
(25:25):
because they're saying, great, finished high school, we'll see you
right after. Yeah. I mean, if you're ready right then
and you're fit for service, you're classified as one A.
Al right, something you heard a lot about in the
Vietnam era. Like, if you get picked and you were
one A, you're you're getting shipped out pretty quickly, right,
exactly like you would go home. They would send you
your letter and and probably in the letter they would
(25:46):
tell you where to report. Yeah, so high schools covered.
If you're a college student, you can postpone for the
remainder of that year, or if you're a freshman, that's you.
If you're senior, if you're a freshman, sophomore, junior, you
can postpone until the end of the semester. Yep, there's
an exemption for religious ministers and people studying to become
(26:07):
ministers and recognized religions. I thought they needed the father's Yeah,
I think that's uh, Like I don't. I think you
you asked for a DEFERMATI if they find that you're
one A, even if you're any of these, I think
they will just take you regardless. But if you say, actually,
i'm a religious minister, I don't feel comfortable about this,
(26:29):
you can get a deferment like that. But if your
father mukahey and you're like, I'm a religious minister. Kill
kill kill, they'll say come on in or counsel the
men who kill kill kill sure father o'kayhy he was
a good uh he was a good um character, wasn't he.
He's good dude. One of my favorites on mash Actually weirdly, yeah, yeah,
(26:51):
because he was like just such a side character. But yeah,
I liked him now that I think about it out loud. Yeah,
I watched Barney Miller last night for the first time
for ever. If you if you want to see a
TV show, like a bona fide TV show where there's
a script and actors and they've all rehearsed and there's
(27:11):
like a plot, and there's jokes and all that stuff
and a laugh track, a laugh track, to watch Barney
Miller and you will be it's wonderful, which is to
say it was like every other show on TV at
the time at the time. Try to find one of
those now you can't do it. Well, I mean they're on,
but you probably just don't watch sitcoms anymore. I guess
they are, and aren't they I'm told? Yeah, Well, anyway,
(27:34):
Barney Miller holds up and maybe it's even better than ever. Yeah,
that was a great show. Who with the who are
the side guys? There's fish able to go to his
fish John. Whoa Joe? Whoa Joe? John? You don't know
where I came up with that. Uh you're thinking a
little John? Yeah? And then who was uh, who's the
other guy? There was Chano? Uh, there was um oh,
(27:59):
I can't remember the Asian guy's name. They they John right? No, no,
wo Joe was the He was like the young kind
of like bachelor dude with the terrible haircute Oh yeah,
yeah yeah, um he oh he was he was probably
like what Yakowski or something. Yeah, that's exactly what his
name was, like okay, um. And then there was the
(28:21):
Asian man. I can't remember what his name was, but
they would he was such a great character. They would
reference him when he wasn't even in the episode. They
talk about him. That's a great that's a good character.
And then Wrong Glass. I can't remember what what the
name of the detective Ron Glass played was, but great
television show still and maybe the best television theme song
(28:43):
of all time too. Oh yeah, I love that one.
If I'm not mistaken. Didn't have a slap bass in it?
Oh yeah, do you want to do it? Ron Harris
run Glass played Ron Harris and uh Yamana nick Yamana
was the character's name, Okay, and who played Nickiamanna? Jack
(29:03):
Sue cool Man? Great, how Lindon Man? What a classic?
Where where are you watching that? Where? Yeah? You mean
what station? There's something called Antenna TV. It's all awesome reruns.
There's something else called Cozy c o z I t V.
They basically do the same thing, and like you'll find
(29:25):
them in the non HD channels a little further down
the dial. But they're good. And now they each owe
me a twenty target gift card. That's a hot tip.
Uh So back to the draft. Oh yeah, um, we
covered that. We got off track with father and okay,
So if you are have dependence, um, like I was saying, like, uh,
(29:48):
my father with a family of two or three. Um,
if you are a government official, like if you're a judge,
which would be unusual that young, but any kind of
elected official go Ovener state legislator. Yeah, I'm sure there's
a lot of up at that rankles a lot of people,
because those are the very people who are sending the
(30:10):
military into war. You know. Yeah, I guess the idea
of a twenty four year old a mayor who gets
a deferment wouldn't go over super well in times of war.
And then finally, and this is we'll get into this
pretty in depth. But conscientious objectors uh, which is a
whole ball of wax right there, But that is when
(30:31):
you hold religious or moral beliefs. Uh. Then you can well,
I guess we should go ahead and get into it. Huh. Well,
do you want to take a break and then get
into it or you want to get into it and
then take a break. It's your choice, buddy. Let's get
into it, then take a break, okay, Uh yeah, okay.
So do you remember a pacifism episode That was a
(30:53):
great one, And I know for a fact that we
talked about conscientious objectors in that as well. But if
you if you are drafted, and here's the thing again,
you still have to register for selective service. If they
ever initiate the draft, you will still get a draft
notice and then you'll report to the regional center the
remaps right um or remaps, and you you will say
(31:17):
to them, I am morally opposed to war. And they'll
say this war, which is a trick question, and you
say no, all war, and they'll go, okay, well that's
a bird of a different feather. Let's get this thing started.
So you have ten days to file this this UM
claim for exemption and then that's going to kick off
this UM basically an interview process by the local board.
(31:40):
And these local boards are another thing that gets activated
UM by the the SSS being UM activated itself. There's
five civilians who sit on a local board and each
local board serves x number of like kids in an
area for volunteers, it should be pointed out, and they're
or to hear special cases to decide whether or not
(32:03):
you get that exemption for things like a hardship UM,
like if you're a father, uh soul breadwinner kind of thing,
or if you're a conscientious objector and with a conscientious
objector specifically, they're gonna ask you, um, well, which kind
are you Are you opposed to, like carrying a gun
and like shooting at people on the front lines? Are
you opposed to combat? Or are you opposed to like
(32:26):
being in the military at all? And there's actually two
classifications for that. Yeah, And at this point they have
called you down like certain things like high school or
maybe if you have a family of six, like they
can just go ahead and rubber stamp you. But you're
gonna get called down there in person, and you'll want
to as as an objector. And the two classifications that
you mentioned is one a oh with if you're morally
(32:49):
opposed to serving in combat or one oh one dash oh.
And this is if you they're saying, I don't want
to be in the military. I don't want to be
a chef. I don't want to be a cook. I
don't want to be a priest or deliver mail or
right for the newspaper. I don't want to write for
the Stars and Stripes. You know what it was called?
(33:09):
Is that still around? Probably? I know Voice of America
is Is that the current main rag? It may be different. Well,
they're like they're everywhere. They're like big time media outlet
for the military. Good Branch has their own RAG too. Well,
the Stars and Stripes. That's what Matthew Modine was right
for and um yeah that's great. Uh photographer though right, No,
(33:33):
he walked around with the photographer used the reporter, gotcha
all right? So in the draft, if you if you
were classified as one AO, which is morally opposed to
combat only, then they will probably try to still assign
you to to some sort of service. Oh yeah, like
we were talking about, like in the mail room or whatever.
(33:54):
But there's plenty of stuff you can do plenty being
on the front line in the military. It's plenty, plenty, plenty, huge,
huge machine that has a lot of different parts to it.
So yeah, they will definitely find a spot for you.
If you're morally opposed to serving the military. If you're saying,
like I'm totally opposed to war, I don't agree with
what you're doing. I don't agree with any any war whatsoever,
So I don't want to help out in any way,
(34:14):
shape or form. Let's say, Okay, you still have to serve.
You're still going to have a tour of duty, just
like anybody who is one A and goes into the
military to serve in the draft, you're gonna have a
tour of duty too, But instead they will assign you
to UM basically what's called the Alternative service program where
you contribute to the country for like X number of years,
(34:37):
like as A in healthcare or UM in conservation. Is
another big one too, where they basically just put you
to work to to keep the country make it better. Yeah,
and you're like you said before, it has to be
opposed to all war, and it can't be because of
political beliefs, So it has to be based on moral
or ethical or religious beliefs. You can't just say, hey, man,
(35:00):
if that was a nine eleven, i'd be down, but
I don't like this jerk who's in office, and I
don't agree with their politics, so I'm not into this war.
They'll say, sorry, that doesn't really count, which I mean,
I yeah, I guess that it makes sense. Yeah, well,
I mean at any rate, you have to appear explain
all this stuff. You might want to bring in some friends.
(35:23):
You might want them to ask or to maybe write
something for you ahead of time. You will probably want
to demonstrate through historical evidence that you have always felt
this way, like look, here's me at a peace rally
nine years ago, and eight years ago and seven years ago,
and you want to really build up your case that, like,
this is something I've lived with my whole life, right
(35:44):
if you or if you like, I'm a Quaker and
see here's my here're my quicker friends telling you that
I'm a Quaker. And here here's my funny hat, belt buckles, shoes.
Did you just start eating handfuls of dry oaks during
the interview to prove to prove you're a Quaker, you
might get a different classification. Uh. So you're doing all
this stuff to build your case. Um. If if they
(36:06):
deny you, you can appeal the decision. Um. So it's
not like the final word. But I don't know how
many peals you get. My guess would be one. Yeah,
and I'm not even sure if you necessarily get one.
But um, ideally, this board of citizens are going to
say this guy actually is morally opposed to war and
then not say but I'm not and I don't think
(36:29):
he should be, so he's gonna go anyway. So they're
supposed to just say, is this person morally opposed to war?
Do you buy that? Yes? Okay, then they should get
this deferment. Um. But this is this is set up
so that that if you there's a they say, well,
there's a place for you to serve your country, even
if you don't, um don't believe in in war. Even
(36:50):
helping a war effort got you? You want to take
that break, now, let's do it, okay, and things all right, Chuck,
(37:27):
So I think there's a this is a really really
controversial topic, the idea of a draft, And I think
it would be far more controversial if it looked like
it might be coming down the pike at any given point.
But there's a lot of reasons that people point to
that they say, this is what we have now is
(37:47):
totally awesome. Um. For one, what we have now again
and we have had since nineteen is an all volunteer force,
which means that every single person who is in the
middle of terry in any branch of the military in
the United States is there on their own volition. No
one's forcing them to. Even if a judge said either
(38:08):
join the army or go to jail, they still had
a choice, it says. So that makes it a what's
called a professional volunteer army where they get paid. Um,
they they submit themselves to serious training, and they are
about as good a soldier as you will expect to
find in the world. That's the current state of our military.
(38:31):
And they say, this is plenty. We're doing fine with this,
We don't need any kind of draft, So why would
you even bring that up. And there's a lot of
people who say, well, well, there's some real pros to
to having a conscription. Yeah, I mean the article you sent,
some of the pros were as follows promoting national unity,
and all of these are subject to opinion, I think, Well, yeah,
(38:55):
I mean, it's a debate, it's a controversial topic. UM
maintains an act of military force. Obviously, that's kind of inarguable. Uh,
it ensures high levels of participation in government. This, you know,
makes a little bit of sense. You'll probably pay a
lot more attention to what's going on if faced with
the threat or I don't know threats right word, but
(39:18):
if faced with the prospects of a draft, that to
me is probably the best the best argument for a draft.
It's saying like, if you, if you are possibly going
to get draft and go to war, just by being
born as a citizen of this country, you're expected to
be part of the military at some point in your life.
(39:40):
You're gonna pay a lot more attention to what the
the US is doing around the world with its military,
and you're probably going to stand up and make your
voice heard if you if you disagree with what the
US is doing with the military. I mean, that definitely
makes sense in some ways, but at the same time,
so so that are coument. What you just said is
(40:01):
it's a it's a it's for proponents of conscription of
a draft, um. But that you can also make the
opposite case too, that people have said, well, when we
had a draft before, we prosecuted at least one like
by definition unjust for the Vietnam War, and it was
it was prosecuted by um, Johnson and Nixon, and they
(40:23):
just kept sending wave after wave of of American soldiers
into harm's way. And some historians and some political scientists
say they might not have done that had they not
known that there was a virtually unlimited pool of soldiers
that they could just send into Southeast Asia over and
over again, um, and that we wouldn't be prosecuting wars
(40:46):
that way between. Okay, I'm sorry. So the the twenty
seven years before nineventy three, we were engaged in nineteen
overseas military operations. Between nineteen seventy three and two thousand,
well we had a hundred and forty four And so
a lot of people say, no, man, if you have
a professional army, they're divorced from society. They're basically like here,
(41:10):
military like, go go handle this. We like, we don't
like these people anymore we want that oil, go do this,
Like what do we pay you for? Go do it?
And the people who are doing this have never been
in the military, haven't been exposed to military life, and
are hence maybe a little more instution about sending the
military in to other countries using a military option. So
(41:33):
that is like two of the best reasons for or
against conscription, but they totally contradict each other. And it's
just fascinating to me that that you can have something
that's just that ambivalent or ambiguous. I mean, right, yeah,
(41:53):
I know what you mean. Um, some of the cons
I mean, the cons are all pretty obvious. It violates
someone's free will. Uh, it may keep you from going
to college, put lives at risk for young people. This
one compromises the quality of military service. That's one that
that's a big con to me is you're getting sometimes
(42:15):
people in there that aren't cut out for that and
couldn't couldn't find a way, and didn't have the wealthy
father or the shady doctor to get you out of it. Um.
I mean that is a big one, especially if you
if you're one of those people who points to the
American military and say is we've never had a better.
This is the best version of the U. S Military
(42:36):
in the history of the country. But let's dilute it
with millions of of conscripts who don't want to be there, um,
who we have to spend an inordinate amount of time
training and sending out to the front lines basically his bodies.
That's that's a terrible idea. It dilutes the professionalism of
the military. Yeah, for sure, that's another. That's another one
(42:57):
that's got it's got to all of these have two
pretty clear sides to every point, you know. And then
I think the other the other thing I've seen too
is so this is I mean, this is not like
a huge hot debate right now in military and political
science quarters, but it's it is currently debated. It's just
the people who are against conscription are not worried about
(43:21):
this at all. It's just not gonna happen anytime soon, right,
There's just no reason for it to happen. But um,
the people who are in favor of it are being
accused of this being a back door way of changing
America's interventionist um military usage. That they're they're basically saying, well,
let's get a draft going, and then people will wake
(43:42):
up and say, oh, we shouldn't be using the military
like this um and that that's their real um aim,
which you know, I guess trying to change strategy by
introducing conscripts, it's a it's a way to go. I suppose. Yeah,
it is interesting to just be like to learn about
something that you have no ideas being discussed or talked about,
(44:04):
and then when you start looking in it's like, oh
there's even stuff below the surface, like they're talking about
grand military strategy really, you know, not just whether people
should serve their country or not, which is another pro
that it creates a a unified sentiment among Americans or
any country. There's plenty of countries out there who do this.
(44:25):
In North North Korea, you're conscripted for ten years as
a man and I think six years as a woman.
Um that there's this sense of like I was in
the military too, where did you serve I served here? Oh?
Really did you know this guy? And you know, like
there's that that common ground, And there's also that mixing
of all different Americans to where you're meeting with them
(44:47):
and living with them one on one and you're forming
a bond, a kinship just through being in the military,
that if everyone has to go through that, it will
create like this kind of sense of national unity that
America is lacking right now. That was another pro that
I saw very interesting. I'm all out of pros and cons,
Chuck uh, Well, I read this New York Times article
(45:07):
that was really interesting talking about Vietnam and then the
Cold War and how that complicated things and um, since
World War Two, I think, uh, the Selective Service was
operated by General Lewis B. Hershey, and like I said earlier,
I didn't face a lot of criticism until Vietnam. And
that's when things got really hinky because a a lot
(45:28):
of people were against the war, and b it became
pretty clear, even though the Department of Events didn't keep
records on socio economic status beyond like are you white
or are you African American, it was pretty clear that
if you were white and middle class and up, you
had a much more uh much higher chances of getting
(45:49):
a deferment. So the Cold War complicated things further because
it wasn't a war war and it became really clear
that we needed to like it was, it was all
about the space race. Or the military race with the Soviets.
So all of a sudden, Hershey said, he didn't say
this out loud, but he said, you know what, I'm
(46:10):
gonna use this, as they called it, We could be
the storekeeper of America's manpower supply. And basically it's up
to us how to how to tell these young men
what lives they're going to live. So not only like,
let's forget the military for a second, they needed a
(46:30):
big supply of men and stem fields to develop weapons
and science and everything to keep up with the Soviets.
So all of a sudden, the deferments, they started channeling
these middle class, college aged or college educated white men
into what they called manpower, channeling into all of these
(46:51):
other areas of study and research and you know, design
and manufacturing. So it was just a really interesting time.
So all of a sudden, like during World War Two,
if you are a factory worker or an agricultural worker,
you might get a deferment. Chances were pretty good that
you might because you were really needed. After that, if
you had a farmer, you worked in a factory, you
(47:12):
were out of luck because you weren't like, uh, into
physics or you know other stem fields or in the
medical field. So by nine five, all these middle class
white men kind of expected deferments, which is really interesting.
And then you had Robert McNamara UH secretary Secretary Defense.
(47:36):
He started using what they called UH. He wanted to
get basically black men out of what he called squalid
ghettos of their own external environment and into the internal
and more destructive ghetto of personal disillusionment and despair. So
basically his idea was, we have all these black men
(47:57):
in this country that would do much better in life
if we put them in the military. So they hunt.
So this is just this one guy deciding this. Well,
I mean, I'm sure it went through channels, but Robert
McNamara's Secretary of Defense was very powerful. Oh I thought
this was Hershey, this is Mcnamerican at this point. Yeah,
this is McNamara who created what was called the New
(48:18):
Standards model. So these men, they were called New Standards men,
who were otherwise ineligible for for military service, all of
a sudden were eligible. So he started basically three d
and fifty four thousand of these men between sixty six
and seventy seven who were not previously eligible under the
(48:38):
New Standards program were and of these men were black,
and this is when the military was about nine percent
African American. So he basically was saying, you know, a
stint in the military as a new standard soldier is
much better, will make you a better husband, better father,
a better breadwinner, ultimately in a better citizen. And you're
basically an infantryman in Vietnam all of a sudden when
(49:01):
you previously would not have even been in the war. Huh.
So this ran for five years, and like I said,
three d fifty four thousand men ended up on the
front lines of Vietnam and had a decent chance of dying. Yeah,
I saw that. I think like of the troops in
Vietnam were draftees, but draftees made up like thirty point
(49:24):
four percent of the casualties in Vietnam. Um, which goes
to kind of point out like if you have somebody
there who's not like, yes, I want to be a soldier,
teach me how to be a soldier. But they're there
against their will. There's a really good likelihood that after
just six months of training they're going to go out
there and get killed, you know, which is a big
mark against conscription. And in just about anybody's mind. Yeah,
(49:49):
that's crazy man. McNamara, he was, yeah, did you ever
see Fog of War? When he's like, do you buy
that it dawned on him him what he had done
or what he was really responsible for, like they're on
camera or was he just putting on a show. I
don't know, you know what I'm talking about where he
(50:09):
kind of like breaks down towards the end and it
seems like Errol It is an Errol Morris flick, right, Yeah,
very compelling, Like it sort of lulls you in to
some great insider information. It's definitely worth watching. It's just
basically like an interview with Robert McNamara, and in it,
Errol Morris like basically leads him to the conclusion that
(50:32):
he really was responsible for a lot of unnecessary death
because of the Vietnam War and how he prosecuted it
as Defense Secretary. Yeah. And I kind of mangled that,
uh op ed in the Times. But it's called and
you should read this out there in podcast land. It's
called How the Draft Reshaped America by Amy J. Ruttenberg
(50:53):
from October of last year. Uh and she's she does
a much better job than I just did. I'll check
it out to I'm so ashamed that I didn't read
something in prep. Don't be Are you got anything else?
I got nothing else? All right? Well, everybody, that was
the draft, and if you want to know more about it,
go type in draft in the search bar at how
(51:15):
stuff works dot com. And since I said that, it's
time for a listener mail. Yeah. And you know, we
didn't get into stuff like the fact that Elvis was
drafted and weird things like that happened back then. Well yeah,
and I mean that was a demonstration for how you know,
everybody is supposedly eligible for the draft, even though that's
(51:35):
not really how it's always worked out. And I think
we talked about that in Pacifism too. All Right, I'm
gonna call this cute kid email from Scotland. Nice. Uh
And this is from Noah in Scotland and knows writing
in again. Remember did he write in before? Oh? Yeah, no,
it was written in plenty Okay, yeah, hey Noah. Well
(51:56):
Noah and his mom added a little uh PostScript, Dear
Josh and Chuck, I'm using my mama's email address again
as she's helping me type, and she's helping me type
butt and getting better, and my next email will be
typed just by me. I really liked your Skyscraper's episode
and wanted to tell you a cool fact. The Shanghai
Tower in China is one levels high. It's my favorite
(52:19):
tower because I think it's engineering is the best and uh,
it's the uh and it's the thing second highest one.
And she said, she just typed exactly as he said. Uh.
It's damper is my favorite part. It's a new type
called a tuned mass damper. This stops it from going
too far to one side by using a hundred and
(52:40):
twenty five super strong magnets. The thing my mama likes
is that the big empty space they need for the
damper means the sounds is good and there's a music
hall in there. I got mamma to put on a
diagram of how it works from a magazine called Popular Mechanics.
I'm six now, and on my summer holidays, when my
cousins come around and are being too noisy, I go
(53:02):
to my room and listen to your next episode or
my new rawl Doll audio books. You're still funny, but
sometimes I don't know what you're talking about. Love from
Noah in Scotland. Uh, and then from mom Rachel She said,
no his mom here, I hope this makes sense, tried
to type it verbatim. When you're six year olds knowledge
of physics vastly outreaches your own, you know it's time
(53:24):
to call him the big guns. Uh. Have we read
one from Noah before? Yes? I can't remember what he
wrote in about but yeah he wrote in back when
he was five, maybe four, but definitely five. Yeah, he's
written in and um, mom typed verbatim then too, and
then kind of added a little pengent saying like unfortunately
the same thing, like I hope this made sense? All right, Well, Noah,
(53:46):
we will read one of your emails a year until
we stop or until you stop listening. Noah's the new Sarah,
the amazing eleven year old fan that's tried to is
Geez twenty one now. Yes, you should be coming back
into the fold again soon. Yeah. We lose them in
high school and then get them back as it's growing up.
(54:07):
That's the idea. Yeah. Well, anyway, Noah and your mom
thank you very much writing in and if you want
to get in touch with me or Chucker Jerry You
can go to stuff you Should Know dot com and
check out all of our social media links and also
uh you can send us an email directly to stuff
podcast how Stuff Works dot com for more on this
(54:32):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works
up
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there.
So this is Stuff you should know. Military edition actually
(00:21):
more bureaucracy edition than anything else. Yeah, and I found this,
uh for a bureaucratic episode. I found it way more
interesting than I thought I would. Those usually turn out
to be more interesting than you'd think. You know, Yeah,
I can't think of one that we've done bureaucracy in
the bureaucracy suite that wasn't like, this is surprisingly interesting. Yeah,
(00:42):
this is this is pretty good. Yeah, agreed. Because I
registered for the Selective Service, as did you, I assume,
oh yeah, unless you're you've been dodging all these years.
I finally made it, but I never really gave it
much thought because dudes like you and I in today's
modern era don't really you know. When I registered, I
was like, yeah, whatever, this will probably mean nothing, but
(01:04):
it's really interesting when you dig into it and what
it could have met or could mean. When I registered,
I was like wait, what what my what's going on here? Again?
And my dad was like just just do it. It's fine.
You'll get in trouble if you don't. I was like, Oh,
I don't want to get in trouble. Was your dad
in the military. Yeah, he was their force during Vietnam,
right before Vietnam, because my dad did not go to Vietnam,
(01:30):
and I think I always felt weird about it. He
would never talk to me about that, but that's the
sense that I got. Did you grow up in Canada
for like the first part of your life or anything. No,
but he was and as you'll find out throughout the
course of this episode about the various deferments and exceptions
and things, he was a lone breadwinner for a family
(01:50):
of one and then two and eventually three in college
studying to be a teacher, so he had a lot
of he checked a lot of boxes that will get
you out of the war. Right, Well, they probably talked
him out of there, like, buddy, your life's hard enough
as it is. Yeah, maybe that that would be a
hardship deferment. Right. Well, I guess it depends, because teachers
(02:15):
were something, as we'll learn later in the show, we're
very very much valued. Oh yeah, and if you were
in college and if you were the bread winner of
a family, so he had a he had a few
things going in his favor. I guess if you're looking
to not go to war, Yeah, all he had to
be was a non US citizen living in the United States,
(02:36):
from a country with a treaty with the US, who
was also morally opposed to the war, and with a
criminal record. That'd be about it. He might have been
a little too old, actually too now that I think
about it. I mean he could have been if he
was in grad was at grad school. I think he
was in grad school. Yeah, he might have been, because
I think it was back then we're talking now. I'm
(02:56):
I think it was eighteen to twenty five, is what
it was. Yeah, so yeah, he could have been beyond that. Yeah,
then all those boxes were checked. I think he probably was.
So in case you guys didn't pick up on this yet,
we're talking about the draft. That's what it's called in America.
But America's far from the only country that's ever had
a draft. It's actually pretty old concept um dating back
(03:18):
as far I think I've seen as far back is
like the second century BC China. Um. I think the
king dynasty or ging. How do you pronounce it with
the q. I think I would have looked that up.
I think it's how do you spell it jing? Q
q i n g q i n g, Well the jing,
(03:38):
I think it's jing. I think so anyway, one of
the dynasty's towards the second century BC, China had conscription,
and it's I think just about every civilization UM with
a military said oh, that's a pretty good idea, let's
try that. So basically everybody's tried it from time to time,
and the US has had drafts multiple times, some a war,
(04:00):
but the North and the South had drafts. Um in
the I think the War of eighteen twelve, there's even one. Um,
the First World War there's a draft. Second World War
there's a draft. And then most recently, the draft was
in Vietnam from nineteen sixty one to nineteen seventy three.
I think, right, yeah, and we'll get to the h
(04:21):
Did you read that New York Times article that I sent?
Oh boy, that was a good one. Well, we'll get
to the ins and outs a little bit at the
end with that article. But um, prior to Vietnam, the
draft had generally been a sort of roundly accepted kind
of uh good thing to most people. So it really
(04:42):
wasn't until Vietnam where we found ourselves with a lot
of different social forces meeting up with the war that
a lot of people didn't believe in. Is where we
had a sort of our first big backlash against the
idea of a draft. That was where I I mean,
that's if the wards just being utterly unpopular almost across
(05:03):
the board, is is where I saw was the big
reason why, um, the resistance to the draft first began
because of Vietnam. Up to that point, wars were generally
popular among the majority of Americans. Yeah, and we also
need to shout out one Genghis Khan or Chenghis or
(05:24):
Chengis Kane because I think we mentioned in that episode
that he he used to draft, right kind of. I
think that was more like a join me or die
kind of thing, which I guess I guess that qualifies
as conscription. Well in America's join me or go to jail.
So yeah, it's close. Yeah, it's it's close. So yeah,
(05:44):
you're right, Um, he definitely had that. And he's actually
the tie that binds this episode and the next one too, Uh,
the one on the Pony Express because he had a
fast male service on horseback. Remember, Yeah, And it's probably
not fair to say that he had a draft, because
you're right. It was more just like come aboard or
(06:04):
i'll have your head, right, But I did want to
mention that he There was another movie that we missed.
There was a movie not too long ago called Mongol. Oh. Yes,
supposedly it was like a good one with a legitimately
good actor in there. Yeah, it was a weird They
covered it on the Friendly Fire Movie podcast that I
listened to, and it's, um, supposedly pretty good. I want
(06:25):
to check it out. It was like a weird like
a Russian slash Kazakhstani production that did feature Asian actors,
only produced by Baratt. I don't know, but it was
supposed to be pretty good. I'll check it out. Yeah,
I don't want to see it too. Is it on
Netflix or Prime? I don't know about that. Oh, by
the way, Chuck, I feel so missed. Happy Prime Day?
(06:47):
Is it Prime Day? Oh? Of course it's a Prime Day.
How could you not? And already bought up my stuff?
That was some buzz marketing of all time. So let's
talk about this draft. Okay, Sure, and well, I think
we'll hold like the pros and cons debate for later. Off,
let's just talk about what the draft is in America.
How about that, because I think it bears a pretty
(07:08):
strong resemblance to drafts in other countries. Yeah. So in
the United States, in our military, now this this article
is a little outdated, but um, I believe for this year,
our budget is about one point three one million active
duty personnel and about eight hundred and fifteen thousand reservists. Uh,
And this is what our volunteer military force looks like.
(07:33):
But in certain times, uh, we have a draft. They
also call it conscription. And that's when we feel like
and you know, there's debate on whether or not this
will ever happen again, but that's when the President and
Congress feels like we need to call up people involuntarily
because we need more bodies. Yeah, the standing volunteer force
(07:56):
that we have right now is considered more than enough
for or at least enough for the current peacetime. Um. Yeah,
if you take if you take the endless wars that
aren't technically wars because Congress never declared war out of
the equation that we're in peacetime right, and so these
these guys, especially with our advancing and I use guys
(08:18):
in the gender neutral sense, um, especially with the advancing
technology that's being used in the military. Now, Um, that's
actually pretty healthy amount of active duty people. But yes,
if there were something that happened, say another World war
or something, there's there's a pretty good chance that a
draft is going to get started pretty quickly. And um
(08:40):
for that to happen, the government would say, okay, selective
service system, do your thing, and the selective service system
would kick in action. And that this is what I
did not know, Chuck. Jimmy Carter is the one who
activated the selective service system. Did you know that, oh,
when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan Because the s draft was
in nineteen seventy three, uh, and it was just done.
(09:04):
And then in nineteen eighty when the Afghani or when
the um the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Carter was really on
edge about that, and in ninety one he just basically
activated the selective service system. And that's what you were
talking about earlier, where where you're eighteen or the first
time you're eligible between the ages of eighteen and twenty five,
(09:25):
you go to your post office, you go to your
government website, you go there's several places you can go,
and you basically fell out a card saying I am
an eighteen year old American citizen or a resident alien
or any number of things. Um, and it's specifically a man,
and here's my info. Give me a call if you
(09:46):
guys ever run into any trouble. Yeah, and so, uh,
the s S S the Selective Service System is who
was in charge of basically operating and and plugging in
the draft and overseeing it if it ever gets reinstated,
right right, So you they have really ultimately this this
article does a good job of pointing this out. The
(10:08):
Selective Service System is basically just a system of names
and addresses kept on file of all um American men
eligible to be drafted. So basically between the age of
eighteen and twenty five. Yeah, so you mentioned women. Um,
(10:29):
about five or six years ago there was the repeal
of the ground combat exclusion and they've can since then
have been working on basically opening up. Uh. I don't
know about all jobs, but I think most or maybe
all jobs two women as well as men in the military.
But you still despite that, they have not made the
change where women have to register with SSS. Yeah, it
(10:53):
came like pretty close in committee I think last year,
and it didn't make it out of committee, but um,
it showed a lot of resolve to that's probably going
to change in the next couple of years, I would guess,
especially now that women are in combat roles in the military.
There's that was traditionally the excuse for why they were
not eligible for selective service. Um. But now that they're
(11:17):
doing combat roles in the volunteer Army or the volunteer military,
then it just makes sense that they would be eligible
for the draft too. Yeah. And right now I'm looking
at the chart. Uh, this print out here has got
one to three, four or five, six, seven, eight categories
where you do not need to. Uh. I was about
(11:39):
to say, turn yourself in. It's a Fredian slip where
you don't have to register. So if you remember the
Armed Forces on active duty, obviously you don't need to.
If you're a cadet and midshipment at service academies or
the Coast Guard Academy, you do not need to. If
you're a student and the officer Procurement program at the
Citadel North Georgia College and Stay University, Norwich, Virginia, v
(12:02):
m I, Texas A and M Virginia Polytech in State University.
You don't have to. Uh, let me see here under
immigrants lawful nonimmigrants on current non immigrant visas. If you're
a seasonal agricultural worker on an H two A visa,
you don't have to. If you're incarcerated or hospitalized or institutionalized,
(12:25):
you do not need to under handicapped physically or mentally. Uh.
You don't need to if you're continually confined to a residence,
hospital or institution, but you do have to if you
were able to function in public with or without assistance.
And then the newest, the latest and greatest transgender people category.
(12:48):
If you're an individual who are born female and have
changed to male, you do not have to. But if
you're born male and change your gender to female, you
do have to. Uh. So that's pretty much flies in
the face of trans that Yeah. Wow, okay, I'm not
surprised by that, but that's that seems a little putsy
(13:09):
dems the rules right now. Yeah, So, one of the
things that stuck out to me, Chuck, was that, um,
if you are a a citizen of another country living
in the United States, you have to register. If you're
a male UM you have to register for this UM
so for selective service. But if your country has a
(13:32):
treaty with the US that says, if you guys ever
do the draft or whatever, we don't want our people
sucked into that. Uh, the U s will honor that.
You still have to go UM register. But then when
they draft you, you can you get an exemption. But
if you do get that exemption, you can never be
a citizen of the United States. And if you ever
leave the country, you might have trouble getting back in.
(13:53):
And it is how this Elective Service puts it, which
I would say that means you will definitely have trouble
getting back in probably, so you know, uh, and you
said eighteen to twenty five is the age where you
have to register within thirty days of reaching eligibility. So
in the case of your eighteenth birthday, within thirty days
of that, or let's say you're in like one of
(14:15):
the exclusions, like you're in military school, but you drop out,
but you're still eighteen to twenty five, then it's when
within thirty days of that dropout date, right, and then yeah,
whether it's eighteen thirty days of your eighteenth birthday or
thirty days of the first time you become eligible, up
to your twenty six birthday. Correct. And then if you
just say I don't feel like going today and you
(14:38):
keep putting it off for you know, seven seven years um,
when you get to be twenty six along the way,
you can do it late and they'll say, hey, thanks
for coming in. We're going to forgive this. If you
wait until after your twenty six and you never get
around to doing it, like as it stands on the books,
you can be prosecuted for up to five years in
(15:00):
prison in a quarter of a million dollar fine. You
can also get that same penalty if you encourage someone
not to sign up for selective service, But apparently they
are not very big on prosecuting that kind of stuff,
and instead what they tend to do is they withhold
um federal job opportunities, some state job opportunities, federal student
(15:23):
aid for college, federal work training program. If you're a
defense contract or any kind of contractor you need a
security clearance, you can kiss that goodbye. So there's stuff
they can do short of finding you two fifty thousand
dollars of putting um in jail for five years. Um,
but there are penalties for just not ever filling out
this little card. Yeah, and I read, uh, and especially
(15:46):
in that Times article that even during the Vietnam War,
like famous cases aside, like let's say, you know, Muhammad Ali,
which makes a lot of news, like, they didn't really
want pool that didn't like he didn't have to be
all gung ho, but they didn't want people that were
just miserable about the whole thing. Well, yeah, I saw
(16:09):
that that was one of the when well we'll talk
about it later, but like that, you know, they there's
like that that wouldn't make a good soldier. It wouldn't
serve anyone. So generally they wanted people who are at
least like, all right, well I'll do this all the
way up to like sign me up, I want to kill. Right.
Did we take a break? Yeah, let's I think that's
our cue when I say I want to kill. All right,
(16:31):
we'll be right back after this, Okay, So let's say that.
(17:03):
Um that there. I saw that the head of Selective
Service said basically it would take a Martian invasion to
activate the draft. Again, I think it's how she put it. So, um,
if that happened, if we were invaded by Martians and
the draft did start. One of the things that carter
Um set up in by activating the Selective Service was
(17:27):
to um, it's basically this government bureaucracy that's just waiting
to spring into action, and it's kind of like kept
on ice. There's a hundred people working at this agency.
They got about twenty three million dollars a year in funding,
and um, they just keep it at at a ready state,
but it's not actually doing what it's designed to do.
(17:48):
It's just taking in information, names, addresses, all that stuff,
and then um, but if it were ever activated, it
would kind of like it would be like one of
those little dinosaur sponges. You put water on it and
it grows into a big dinosaur sponge. That's basically what
would happen with the S S S. Yeah, so they would,
like our article points out, they would kick into what
(18:09):
you would call draft mode and they would conducted national
draft lottery. And you know, back in the Vietnam era,
this was a this is a dicey proposition to watch
on television what looks like a money lottery. You know,
picking numbers, and this is how it how it goes.
(18:30):
It's developed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology,
and I assume this is how it would still go today. Right, Yeah,
this is the current incarnation of the s s S.
Al Right, so computer is going to print out all
the dates in the current year in random mortar. Put
those dates and little little capsules. So interesting how they
(18:50):
do this. They really look like more like ping pong
balls to me. I know, I'm saying, it looks like
you could be a winner, right, except you're not. But
who calls it a cap soul? I don't know whoever,
Tom Harris, he's old school. Yeah, I guess he's a weirdo.
Maybe he's never played ping pong. Uh. Then the computer
(19:13):
prints out one through three, six for each day of
the year in random mortar, puts those in ping pong balls.
The captive souls containing dates are loaded into one drum.
The others are loaded into another drum. They spend that thing.
They spend the big wheel. I think it's puffed by air.
Oh is it? I think so? I was just trying
(19:33):
to make a little more like I said, twenty three
million in funding a year, right, they can afford the
air puff. They're being inspected and observed this whole time
to make sure everything's going as planned. And then what
happens on TV. Okay, so the official who's running the thing,
and again yeah, they have like they have TV there
to make sure that this is documented and above the
(19:55):
boards and all that stuff. And when the official pulls
out the ball or the capsule i'm sorry from one
machine and then a capsule from another machine, and they
read them out laud. So for example, if the number
from the one machine with all the dates of the
year in it says April, and the other the other
(20:17):
machine has UM three hundred and sixty five or sixty six.
If it's a leap year, and that says number forty two,
then that means that every male who is eligible for
the draft that turns twenty on April twenty two of
that year will be in the forties second group to
receive their draft notices. Yeah, they start I guess the
(20:39):
ideal age that they feel as fair as twenty years old, right,
So that's where they start with the draft, because again
remember it's between eighteen and twenty five you're eligible. But
they yeah, they start with the twenty year olds, and
then they do this so over and over again, for
all three hundred and sixty five or sixty six days
of the year. They pair a date of that year
(20:59):
with a number, and that's the people whose twentieth birthday
falls on that year are the ones who get that number.
They're in that number group. So if January was number one,
than anybody born on January would be the first to
get the draft notices. And when they're doing this, they're there.
(21:20):
They're probably calling up enough people that multiple groups, say
groups one through a hundred and fifty are all going
to get draft notices right out of the gate. But
then as they like, Congress and the President asked for
a specific number of troops, and then once they reach
that number, the draft notices stopped getting sent out. And
(21:41):
then if they say, well, we need more people, they'll
start going back to the um. The sequence of call
is what it's called uh. And then they go to
the next group, in the next group, of the next
group until they keep fulfilling these numbers, and then when
they run out of twenty year olds, then they go
to other age groups. Yeah, they move up from that
point to one, and you know, let's just say they
keep needing people, it would go twenty one through. Then
(22:04):
if they run out of twenty five year olds, A,
that means we're in big trouble as a country. The
martians are winning, then they hop back to age nineteen,
and then if the most dire circumstances comes around, then
they hop back finally to eighteen year olds. Yes, so
that's that's eighteen to twenty five year olds. Yeah, have
(22:28):
just been gone through in the military basically is which
has happened If they go get down to the eighteen
year olds. Yeah, So then if your name is called, uh,
they are you were sent to a or your report
I guess to a regional military entrance processing station. And
I'm sure they call it something different, like they have
(22:50):
some cute short name for it, REMS. And I'll bet
this one is a REMPS. I'll bet it's REMPS. You
think maybe you know my brother in law's and the Marines,
And it's astounding how many uh what are those called
not contractions but acronym acronyms for everything. It's unbelievable. They
(23:11):
hate saying whole words of the military. Well, it's like
another language. And then when he's talking to me, he'll
say the acronym and then the real thing, but he just,
you know, he can't help but say the acronym. Well sure,
you know, do you ever point out, like how much
time he just wasted saying both, Yeah, I do that
all the time. He loves it, sir. Uh. So then
they report to this uh rim epps or rim up, No,
(23:36):
it would be rim EPs. Yeah. And this is where
you know, you undergo your physical, your your psych evaluation,
your mental and moral evaluation, and the doctor says, you know,
you can either keep going forward or hey, you know
you're wealthy and you have bone spurs, so maybe we'll
we'll hold you out. He really wanted to big your
(23:59):
response on that. And huh, I don't know. I don't
know what I want anymore. Uh. But if you're fit
for service, then you have ten days from that point
if you want to file an exemption, a claim for
exemption or postponement or deferment. Uh. And then from that
point forward, if you want a special classification, then you
(24:20):
are you go through that whole process. Yes. So one
of the other things that the selective service system does
is um so it's bringing in, it's bringing in all
the people who are eligible for the for the draft
and making sure they get evaluated to see if they're
fit for service. And then it's also handling and administering
the exemption and postponement and deferment process too. It's like
(24:43):
two separate streams. It's one stream and then it breaks
into two streams. One stream goes into the military, the
other one gets sorted out. Right. Yes, So if you
are um, if you're say like a high school student
or something like that, UM, and you file that that
ten days, a uh claim for exemption or whatever. You'll
(25:04):
just send in a piece of paper, maybe something from
your high school that says, uh, now, Josh is still
in high school, so he's he shouldn't be going into
the draft, and they will say, here's your exemption, kid,
actually twenty he's in high school. Don't ask, That would
be right, don't ask, don't tell um. And that would
be a postponement, I think, is what that would be,
(25:25):
because they're saying, great, finished high school, we'll see you
right after. Yeah. I mean, if you're ready right then
and you're fit for service, you're classified as one A.
Al right, something you heard a lot about in the
Vietnam era. Like, if you get picked and you were
one A, you're you're getting shipped out pretty quickly, right,
exactly like you would go home. They would send you
your letter and and probably in the letter they would
(25:46):
tell you where to report. Yeah, so high schools covered.
If you're a college student, you can postpone for the
remainder of that year, or if you're a freshman, that's you.
If you're senior, if you're a freshman, sophomore, junior, you
can postpone until the end of the semester. Yep, there's
an exemption for religious ministers and people studying to become
(26:07):
ministers and recognized religions. I thought they needed the father's Yeah,
I think that's uh, Like I don't. I think you
you asked for a DEFERMATI if they find that you're
one A, even if you're any of these, I think
they will just take you regardless. But if you say, actually,
i'm a religious minister, I don't feel comfortable about this,
(26:29):
you can get a deferment like that. But if your
father mukahey and you're like, I'm a religious minister. Kill
kill kill, they'll say come on in or counsel the
men who kill kill kill sure father o'kayhy he was
a good uh he was a good um character, wasn't he.
He's good dude. One of my favorites on mash Actually weirdly, yeah, yeah,
(26:51):
because he was like just such a side character. But yeah,
I liked him now that I think about it out loud. Yeah,
I watched Barney Miller last night for the first time
for ever. If you if you want to see a
TV show, like a bona fide TV show where there's
a script and actors and they've all rehearsed and there's
(27:11):
like a plot, and there's jokes and all that stuff
and a laugh track, a laugh track, to watch Barney
Miller and you will be it's wonderful, which is to
say it was like every other show on TV at
the time at the time. Try to find one of
those now you can't do it. Well, I mean they're on,
but you probably just don't watch sitcoms anymore. I guess
they are, and aren't they I'm told? Yeah, Well, anyway,
(27:34):
Barney Miller holds up and maybe it's even better than ever. Yeah,
that was a great show. Who with the who are
the side guys? There's fish able to go to his
fish John. Whoa Joe? Whoa Joe? John? You don't know
where I came up with that. Uh you're thinking a
little John? Yeah? And then who was uh, who's the
other guy? There was Chano? Uh, there was um oh,
(27:59):
I can't remember the Asian guy's name. They they John right? No, no,
wo Joe was the He was like the young kind
of like bachelor dude with the terrible haircute Oh yeah,
yeah yeah, um he oh he was he was probably
like what Yakowski or something. Yeah, that's exactly what his
name was, like okay, um. And then there was the
(28:21):
Asian man. I can't remember what his name was, but
they would he was such a great character. They would
reference him when he wasn't even in the episode. They
talk about him. That's a great that's a good character.
And then Wrong Glass. I can't remember what what the
name of the detective Ron Glass played was, but great
television show still and maybe the best television theme song
(28:43):
of all time too. Oh yeah, I love that one.
If I'm not mistaken. Didn't have a slap bass in it?
Oh yeah, do you want to do it? Ron Harris
run Glass played Ron Harris and uh Yamana nick Yamana
was the character's name, Okay, and who played Nickiamanna? Jack
(29:03):
Sue cool Man? Great, how Lindon Man? What a classic?
Where where are you watching that? Where? Yeah? You mean
what station? There's something called Antenna TV. It's all awesome reruns.
There's something else called Cozy c o z I t V.
They basically do the same thing, and like you'll find
(29:25):
them in the non HD channels a little further down
the dial. But they're good. And now they each owe
me a twenty target gift card. That's a hot tip.
Uh So back to the draft. Oh yeah, um, we
covered that. We got off track with father and okay,
So if you are have dependence, um, like I was saying, like, uh,
(29:48):
my father with a family of two or three. Um,
if you are a government official, like if you're a judge,
which would be unusual that young, but any kind of
elected official go Ovener state legislator. Yeah, I'm sure there's
a lot of up at that rankles a lot of people,
because those are the very people who are sending the
(30:10):
military into war. You know. Yeah, I guess the idea
of a twenty four year old a mayor who gets
a deferment wouldn't go over super well in times of war.
And then finally, and this is we'll get into this
pretty in depth. But conscientious objectors uh, which is a
whole ball of wax right there, But that is when
(30:31):
you hold religious or moral beliefs. Uh. Then you can well,
I guess we should go ahead and get into it. Huh. Well,
do you want to take a break and then get
into it or you want to get into it and
then take a break. It's your choice, buddy. Let's get
into it, then take a break, okay, Uh yeah, okay.
So do you remember a pacifism episode That was a
(30:53):
great one, And I know for a fact that we
talked about conscientious objectors in that as well. But if
you if you are drafted, and here's the thing again,
you still have to register for selective service. If they
ever initiate the draft, you will still get a draft
notice and then you'll report to the regional center the
remaps right um or remaps, and you you will say
(31:17):
to them, I am morally opposed to war. And they'll
say this war, which is a trick question, and you
say no, all war, and they'll go, okay, well that's
a bird of a different feather. Let's get this thing started.
So you have ten days to file this this UM
claim for exemption and then that's going to kick off
this UM basically an interview process by the local board.
(31:40):
And these local boards are another thing that gets activated
UM by the the SSS being UM activated itself. There's
five civilians who sit on a local board and each
local board serves x number of like kids in an
area for volunteers, it should be pointed out, and they're
or to hear special cases to decide whether or not
(32:03):
you get that exemption for things like a hardship UM,
like if you're a father, uh soul breadwinner kind of thing,
or if you're a conscientious objector and with a conscientious
objector specifically, they're gonna ask you, um, well, which kind
are you Are you opposed to, like carrying a gun
and like shooting at people on the front lines? Are
you opposed to combat? Or are you opposed to like
(32:26):
being in the military at all? And there's actually two
classifications for that. Yeah, And at this point they have
called you down like certain things like high school or
maybe if you have a family of six, like they
can just go ahead and rubber stamp you. But you're
gonna get called down there in person, and you'll want
to as as an objector. And the two classifications that
you mentioned is one a oh with if you're morally
(32:49):
opposed to serving in combat or one oh one dash oh.
And this is if you they're saying, I don't want
to be in the military. I don't want to be
a chef. I don't want to be a cook. I
don't want to be a priest or deliver mail or
right for the newspaper. I don't want to write for
the Stars and Stripes. You know what it was called?
(33:09):
Is that still around? Probably? I know Voice of America
is Is that the current main rag? It may be different. Well,
they're like they're everywhere. They're like big time media outlet
for the military. Good Branch has their own RAG too. Well,
the Stars and Stripes. That's what Matthew Modine was right
for and um yeah that's great. Uh photographer though right, No,
(33:33):
he walked around with the photographer used the reporter, gotcha
all right? So in the draft, if you if you
were classified as one AO, which is morally opposed to
combat only, then they will probably try to still assign
you to to some sort of service. Oh yeah, like
we were talking about, like in the mail room or whatever.
(33:54):
But there's plenty of stuff you can do plenty being
on the front line in the military. It's plenty, plenty, plenty, huge,
huge machine that has a lot of different parts to it.
So yeah, they will definitely find a spot for you.
If you're morally opposed to serving the military. If you're saying,
like I'm totally opposed to war, I don't agree with
what you're doing. I don't agree with any any war whatsoever,
So I don't want to help out in any way,
(34:14):
shape or form. Let's say, Okay, you still have to serve.
You're still going to have a tour of duty, just
like anybody who is one A and goes into the
military to serve in the draft, you're gonna have a
tour of duty too, But instead they will assign you
to UM basically what's called the Alternative service program where
you contribute to the country for like X number of years,
(34:37):
like as A in healthcare or UM in conservation. Is
another big one too, where they basically just put you
to work to to keep the country make it better. Yeah,
and you're like you said before, it has to be
opposed to all war, and it can't be because of
political beliefs, So it has to be based on moral
or ethical or religious beliefs. You can't just say, hey, man,
(35:00):
if that was a nine eleven, i'd be down, but
I don't like this jerk who's in office, and I
don't agree with their politics, so I'm not into this war.
They'll say, sorry, that doesn't really count, which I mean,
I yeah, I guess that it makes sense. Yeah, well,
I mean at any rate, you have to appear explain
all this stuff. You might want to bring in some friends.
(35:23):
You might want them to ask or to maybe write
something for you ahead of time. You will probably want
to demonstrate through historical evidence that you have always felt
this way, like look, here's me at a peace rally
nine years ago, and eight years ago and seven years ago,
and you want to really build up your case that, like,
this is something I've lived with my whole life, right
(35:44):
if you or if you like, I'm a Quaker and
see here's my here're my quicker friends telling you that
I'm a Quaker. And here here's my funny hat, belt buckles, shoes.
Did you just start eating handfuls of dry oaks during
the interview to prove to prove you're a Quaker, you
might get a different classification. Uh. So you're doing all
this stuff to build your case. Um. If if they
(36:06):
deny you, you can appeal the decision. Um. So it's
not like the final word. But I don't know how
many peals you get. My guess would be one. Yeah,
and I'm not even sure if you necessarily get one.
But um, ideally, this board of citizens are going to
say this guy actually is morally opposed to war and
then not say but I'm not and I don't think
(36:29):
he should be, so he's gonna go anyway. So they're
supposed to just say, is this person morally opposed to war?
Do you buy that? Yes? Okay, then they should get
this deferment. Um. But this is this is set up
so that that if you there's a they say, well,
there's a place for you to serve your country, even
if you don't, um don't believe in in war. Even
(36:50):
helping a war effort got you? You want to take
that break, now, let's do it, okay, and things all right, Chuck,
(37:27):
So I think there's a this is a really really
controversial topic, the idea of a draft, And I think
it would be far more controversial if it looked like
it might be coming down the pike at any given point.
But there's a lot of reasons that people point to
that they say, this is what we have now is
(37:47):
totally awesome. Um. For one, what we have now again
and we have had since nineteen is an all volunteer force,
which means that every single person who is in the
middle of terry in any branch of the military in
the United States is there on their own volition. No
one's forcing them to. Even if a judge said either
(38:08):
join the army or go to jail, they still had
a choice, it says. So that makes it a what's
called a professional volunteer army where they get paid. Um,
they they submit themselves to serious training, and they are
about as good a soldier as you will expect to
find in the world. That's the current state of our military.
(38:31):
And they say, this is plenty. We're doing fine with this,
We don't need any kind of draft, So why would
you even bring that up. And there's a lot of
people who say, well, well, there's some real pros to
to having a conscription. Yeah, I mean the article you sent,
some of the pros were as follows promoting national unity,
and all of these are subject to opinion, I think, Well, yeah,
(38:55):
I mean, it's a debate, it's a controversial topic. UM
maintains an act of military force. Obviously, that's kind of inarguable. Uh,
it ensures high levels of participation in government. This, you know,
makes a little bit of sense. You'll probably pay a
lot more attention to what's going on if faced with
the threat or I don't know threats right word, but
(39:18):
if faced with the prospects of a draft, that to
me is probably the best the best argument for a draft.
It's saying like, if you, if you are possibly going
to get draft and go to war, just by being
born as a citizen of this country, you're expected to
be part of the military at some point in your life.
(39:40):
You're gonna pay a lot more attention to what the
the US is doing around the world with its military,
and you're probably going to stand up and make your
voice heard if you if you disagree with what the
US is doing with the military. I mean, that definitely
makes sense in some ways, but at the same time,
so so that are coument. What you just said is
(40:01):
it's a it's a it's for proponents of conscription of
a draft, um. But that you can also make the
opposite case too, that people have said, well, when we
had a draft before, we prosecuted at least one like
by definition unjust for the Vietnam War, and it was
it was prosecuted by um, Johnson and Nixon, and they
(40:23):
just kept sending wave after wave of of American soldiers
into harm's way. And some historians and some political scientists
say they might not have done that had they not
known that there was a virtually unlimited pool of soldiers
that they could just send into Southeast Asia over and
over again, um, and that we wouldn't be prosecuting wars
(40:46):
that way between. Okay, I'm sorry. So the the twenty
seven years before nineventy three, we were engaged in nineteen
overseas military operations. Between nineteen seventy three and two thousand,
well we had a hundred and forty four And so
a lot of people say, no, man, if you have
a professional army, they're divorced from society. They're basically like here,
(41:10):
military like, go go handle this. We like, we don't
like these people anymore we want that oil, go do this,
Like what do we pay you for? Go do it?
And the people who are doing this have never been
in the military, haven't been exposed to military life, and
are hence maybe a little more instution about sending the
military in to other countries using a military option. So
(41:33):
that is like two of the best reasons for or
against conscription, but they totally contradict each other. And it's
just fascinating to me that that you can have something
that's just that ambivalent or ambiguous. I mean, right, yeah,
(41:53):
I know what you mean. Um, some of the cons
I mean, the cons are all pretty obvious. It violates
someone's free will. Uh, it may keep you from going
to college, put lives at risk for young people. This
one compromises the quality of military service. That's one that
that's a big con to me is you're getting sometimes
(42:15):
people in there that aren't cut out for that and
couldn't couldn't find a way, and didn't have the wealthy
father or the shady doctor to get you out of it. Um.
I mean that is a big one, especially if you
if you're one of those people who points to the
American military and say is we've never had a better.
This is the best version of the U. S Military
(42:36):
in the history of the country. But let's dilute it
with millions of of conscripts who don't want to be there, um,
who we have to spend an inordinate amount of time
training and sending out to the front lines basically his bodies.
That's that's a terrible idea. It dilutes the professionalism of
the military. Yeah, for sure, that's another. That's another one
(42:57):
that's got it's got to all of these have two
pretty clear sides to every point, you know. And then
I think the other the other thing I've seen too
is so this is I mean, this is not like
a huge hot debate right now in military and political
science quarters, but it's it is currently debated. It's just
the people who are against conscription are not worried about
(43:21):
this at all. It's just not gonna happen anytime soon, right,
There's just no reason for it to happen. But um,
the people who are in favor of it are being
accused of this being a back door way of changing
America's interventionist um military usage. That they're they're basically saying, well,
let's get a draft going, and then people will wake
(43:42):
up and say, oh, we shouldn't be using the military
like this um and that that's their real um aim,
which you know, I guess trying to change strategy by
introducing conscripts, it's a it's a way to go. I suppose. Yeah,
it is interesting to just be like to learn about
something that you have no ideas being discussed or talked about,
(44:04):
and then when you start looking in it's like, oh
there's even stuff below the surface, like they're talking about
grand military strategy really, you know, not just whether people
should serve their country or not, which is another pro
that it creates a a unified sentiment among Americans or
any country. There's plenty of countries out there who do this.
(44:25):
In North North Korea, you're conscripted for ten years as
a man and I think six years as a woman.
Um that there's this sense of like I was in
the military too, where did you serve I served here? Oh?
Really did you know this guy? And you know, like
there's that that common ground, And there's also that mixing
of all different Americans to where you're meeting with them
(44:47):
and living with them one on one and you're forming
a bond, a kinship just through being in the military,
that if everyone has to go through that, it will
create like this kind of sense of national unity that
America is lacking right now. That was another pro that
I saw very interesting. I'm all out of pros and cons,
Chuck uh, Well, I read this New York Times article
(45:07):
that was really interesting talking about Vietnam and then the
Cold War and how that complicated things and um, since
World War Two, I think, uh, the Selective Service was
operated by General Lewis B. Hershey, and like I said earlier,
I didn't face a lot of criticism until Vietnam. And
that's when things got really hinky because a a lot
(45:28):
of people were against the war, and b it became
pretty clear, even though the Department of Events didn't keep
records on socio economic status beyond like are you white
or are you African American, it was pretty clear that
if you were white and middle class and up, you
had a much more uh much higher chances of getting
(45:49):
a deferment. So the Cold War complicated things further because
it wasn't a war war and it became really clear
that we needed to like it was, it was all
about the space race. Or the military race with the Soviets.
So all of a sudden, Hershey said, he didn't say
this out loud, but he said, you know what, I'm
(46:10):
gonna use this, as they called it, We could be
the storekeeper of America's manpower supply. And basically it's up
to us how to how to tell these young men
what lives they're going to live. So not only like,
let's forget the military for a second, they needed a
(46:30):
big supply of men and stem fields to develop weapons
and science and everything to keep up with the Soviets.
So all of a sudden, the deferments, they started channeling
these middle class, college aged or college educated white men
into what they called manpower, channeling into all of these
(46:51):
other areas of study and research and you know, design
and manufacturing. So it was just a really interesting time.
So all of a sudden, like during World War Two,
if you are a factory worker or an agricultural worker,
you might get a deferment. Chances were pretty good that
you might because you were really needed. After that, if
you had a farmer, you worked in a factory, you
(47:12):
were out of luck because you weren't like, uh, into
physics or you know other stem fields or in the
medical field. So by nine five, all these middle class
white men kind of expected deferments, which is really interesting.
And then you had Robert McNamara UH secretary Secretary Defense.
(47:36):
He started using what they called UH. He wanted to
get basically black men out of what he called squalid
ghettos of their own external environment and into the internal
and more destructive ghetto of personal disillusionment and despair. So
basically his idea was, we have all these black men
(47:57):
in this country that would do much better in life
if we put them in the military. So they hunt.
So this is just this one guy deciding this. Well,
I mean, I'm sure it went through channels, but Robert
McNamara's Secretary of Defense was very powerful. Oh I thought
this was Hershey, this is Mcnamerican at this point. Yeah,
this is McNamara who created what was called the New
(48:18):
Standards model. So these men, they were called New Standards men,
who were otherwise ineligible for for military service, all of
a sudden were eligible. So he started basically three d
and fifty four thousand of these men between sixty six
and seventy seven who were not previously eligible under the
(48:38):
New Standards program were and of these men were black,
and this is when the military was about nine percent
African American. So he basically was saying, you know, a
stint in the military as a new standard soldier is
much better, will make you a better husband, better father,
a better breadwinner, ultimately in a better citizen. And you're
basically an infantryman in Vietnam all of a sudden when
(49:01):
you previously would not have even been in the war. Huh.
So this ran for five years, and like I said,
three d fifty four thousand men ended up on the
front lines of Vietnam and had a decent chance of dying. Yeah,
I saw that. I think like of the troops in
Vietnam were draftees, but draftees made up like thirty point
(49:24):
four percent of the casualties in Vietnam. Um, which goes
to kind of point out like if you have somebody
there who's not like, yes, I want to be a soldier,
teach me how to be a soldier. But they're there
against their will. There's a really good likelihood that after
just six months of training they're going to go out
there and get killed, you know, which is a big
mark against conscription. And in just about anybody's mind. Yeah,
(49:49):
that's crazy man. McNamara, he was, yeah, did you ever
see Fog of War? When he's like, do you buy
that it dawned on him him what he had done
or what he was really responsible for, like they're on
camera or was he just putting on a show. I
don't know, you know what I'm talking about where he
(50:09):
kind of like breaks down towards the end and it
seems like Errol It is an Errol Morris flick, right, Yeah,
very compelling, Like it sort of lulls you in to
some great insider information. It's definitely worth watching. It's just
basically like an interview with Robert McNamara, and in it,
Errol Morris like basically leads him to the conclusion that
(50:32):
he really was responsible for a lot of unnecessary death
because of the Vietnam War and how he prosecuted it
as Defense Secretary. Yeah. And I kind of mangled that,
uh op ed in the Times. But it's called and
you should read this out there in podcast land. It's
called How the Draft Reshaped America by Amy J. Ruttenberg
(50:53):
from October of last year. Uh and she's she does
a much better job than I just did. I'll check
it out to I'm so ashamed that I didn't read
something in prep. Don't be Are you got anything else?
I got nothing else? All right? Well, everybody, that was
the draft, and if you want to know more about it,
go type in draft in the search bar at how
(51:15):
stuff works dot com. And since I said that, it's
time for a listener mail. Yeah. And you know, we
didn't get into stuff like the fact that Elvis was
drafted and weird things like that happened back then. Well yeah,
and I mean that was a demonstration for how you know,
everybody is supposedly eligible for the draft, even though that's
(51:35):
not really how it's always worked out. And I think
we talked about that in Pacifism too. All Right, I'm
gonna call this cute kid email from Scotland. Nice. Uh
And this is from Noah in Scotland and knows writing
in again. Remember did he write in before? Oh? Yeah, no,
it was written in plenty Okay, yeah, hey Noah. Well
(51:56):
Noah and his mom added a little uh PostScript, Dear
Josh and Chuck, I'm using my mama's email address again
as she's helping me type, and she's helping me type
butt and getting better, and my next email will be
typed just by me. I really liked your Skyscraper's episode
and wanted to tell you a cool fact. The Shanghai
Tower in China is one levels high. It's my favorite
(52:19):
tower because I think it's engineering is the best and uh,
it's the uh and it's the thing second highest one.
And she said, she just typed exactly as he said. Uh.
It's damper is my favorite part. It's a new type
called a tuned mass damper. This stops it from going
too far to one side by using a hundred and
(52:40):
twenty five super strong magnets. The thing my mama likes
is that the big empty space they need for the
damper means the sounds is good and there's a music
hall in there. I got mamma to put on a
diagram of how it works from a magazine called Popular Mechanics.
I'm six now, and on my summer holidays, when my
cousins come around and are being too noisy, I go
(53:02):
to my room and listen to your next episode or
my new rawl Doll audio books. You're still funny, but
sometimes I don't know what you're talking about. Love from
Noah in Scotland. Uh, and then from mom Rachel She said,
no his mom here, I hope this makes sense, tried
to type it verbatim. When you're six year olds knowledge
of physics vastly outreaches your own, you know it's time
(53:24):
to call him the big guns. Uh. Have we read
one from Noah before? Yes? I can't remember what he
wrote in about but yeah he wrote in back when
he was five, maybe four, but definitely five. Yeah, he's
written in and um, mom typed verbatim then too, and
then kind of added a little pengent saying like unfortunately
the same thing, like I hope this made sense? All right, Well, Noah,
(53:46):
we will read one of your emails a year until
we stop or until you stop listening. Noah's the new Sarah,
the amazing eleven year old fan that's tried to is
Geez twenty one now. Yes, you should be coming back
into the fold again soon. Yeah. We lose them in
high school and then get them back as it's growing up.
(54:07):
That's the idea. Yeah. Well, anyway, Noah and your mom
thank you very much writing in and if you want
to get in touch with me or Chucker Jerry You
can go to stuff you Should Know dot com and
check out all of our social media links and also
uh you can send us an email directly to stuff
podcast how Stuff Works dot com for more on this
(54:32):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works
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