August 23, 2022 • 47 mins
The world isn’t divided into cat people and dog people, or Beatles fans and Rolling Stones fans (or neither). What really divides us is introversion or extraversion, right? Turns out people just aren’t that binary and all of us are a little of both.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I
Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh,
and there's Chuck and Jerry's not here, but we suspect
she'll be along shortly, and that makes this, of course
stuff you should know. Yeah, it's funny. This one came
(00:23):
up from you. Why because semi recently we were hanging
out with our friends and Emily, We're talking about introverts
and extroverts and Emily said, someone said, yeah, you know,
Chuck is obviously an extrovert, and uh, Emily said, no,
he's not. It's a lie. She said, Chuck is an
(00:44):
introvert because he loses energy and groups of people and
he recharges by being alone. And I had never really
heard that, but that's true. But then after doing all
this research, like I am, uh, very much in the
middle of the spectrum, very and not I guess, not
(01:07):
quite an ambivert, and that what it's called. It really
is completely dependent for me on any situation, who the
people are, where I am at the time. It's very,
very dependent on a host of factors. Yes, so that
means you are normal, uh, from from what I can tell.
(01:29):
And I'm really excited about this one because it's like
Christmas and Halloween and Easter all wrapped up together, because
we get the tea off on social psychology, on the
science press, um, all sorts of people and really kind
of disassemble something I think most people walking around think
they understand, but from everything I can tell, misunderstand is
(01:50):
a much better way to put it. Yeah. Absolutely, And
I think this will get a lot of listener feedback
because I think a lot of people spend time thinking
about this stuff. Yeah. Um, And it's like, I don't know,
Like I said, it's very easy to put people in buckets.
I think if we were to talk about yourself and myself,
people would say, well, Chucks an extrovert. Josh is an introvert.
(02:11):
We can tell by things they've said over the years.
But it's just not that easy. No, No, but you're right,
and I should say you weren't right. Emily was right.
You recounted Emily being right. Usually the case if you
just kind of boil it down to that, that is,
it seems to be from what we can tell the UM.
The one distinction between introverts and extroverts, like where you
(02:32):
gather your energy from? Is it from other people or
is it from yourself not being around other people? Yeah,
but also it's like I think it's and we'll we'll
debunk a lot of this stuff, but um, it's not
as easy as you know, the fact that you don't
want to be talked to on the Appalachian Trail or
meet other hikers, that doesn't mean you're an introvert. Because
(02:52):
I've also seen you be the life of a party.
Well that's when you get a little Captain Morgan. But
like I was thinking about just you know, work events
and parties and things like that. If it's like a
party with my friends, I'm usually all about it. But
I could also be in the mood to not even
(03:13):
go or at a podcast conference. You know, I am
way more likely to just sit in my room than
go to the mixer unless I know that, like there's
gonna be people at the mixer I would really want
to get to know and meet, And then I'm all
of a sudden all about it. So it really just depends.
That's me. I feel like I'm learning a lot about
you right now because I just presumed you were always
(03:33):
at those mixers. No, man, I'm in the room a lot.
I mean you were always in the room, but many
times in the room. Well there's coffee in the room.
So just so let's let's kind of um, let's talk
a little bit about introverts and extroverts. There's a woman
named Susan Kane who wrote a book called Quiet, The
Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking,
And she basically says it comes down to a preference
(03:56):
of where you get your stimulation, like do you prefer
lower stimulation environments do you prefer high stimulation environments? And
that it is just a preference. And in a lot
of ways she's right, But in a lot of ways
she's really wrong because it's not just a preference from
what from if you're a psychologist or even a neuroscientist, like,
it's an actual, ingrained, possibly um brain based um biological
(04:22):
response that that people may or may not be born with. Yeah,
and we're gonna we're gonna throw a lot of studies
out in this one and a lot of statistics. There
was a random sample of results in a Myers Briggs
personality inventory that said the introverts and I love this
stat They might as well have just called it fifty
(04:43):
fifty Uh, Introverts made up fifty point seven and extroverts
for forty nine point three, with about forty six percent
of men and fifty two percent of women being extroverted.
In fifty percent of men and forty seven percent of
women is introverted. But you can find a pretty wide
range if you go poking around the internet on how
(05:05):
many people they say are introverted or extroverted. Yeah, the
one I I've seen all over the places somewhere between
sixteen and fifty percent of people, right, introverts? Right, sure, Well,
I bet you they're right. Well yeah, yeah, somewhere in
there they might be nailing it, unless it pans out
the introverts don't actually exist. So those numbers you threw out,
(05:28):
and I think the sixteen to fifty that I threw
out too, that's typically in the us UM. But the
thing is, it's not entirely clear, Chuck, if those numbers
hold steady, like if you did that same random sample
of Myers Briggs results, you know ten years on which
you get similar numbers, and if you wouldn't, why is
that the case? Is it because somehow like populations are shifting,
(05:49):
or is it because you know, if you would sample
those exact same people from ten years later. Was if
and they results were different? Would it be because people
act differently because of their moods? And then there's not
like a lifelong bucket of introvert or extrovert that you
can actually label people with, right, or if people uh
(06:12):
really evolve? Uh, And I'd say evolve or devolved? I
guess in either direction. Um could do some people that
really used to be introverted. You know, you hear stories
where people say, well, then I learned to come out
of my shell for these reasons, and now I'm a
completely different person. And I think it's just one of
these things where it is all wholly dependent on an individual.
(06:34):
They're like, now I go beat up introverts on Friday
nights with my friends. But like, this stuff is fun
to talk about, but I just don't know that anyone
can bucket people. You can make some generalizations, but I
think it's so specific to each person that it's uh,
which is sort of some of your closing thoughts, which
we'll get to at the end. Yeah, but but we
(06:55):
have a problem here, then we can at least set
it up right, because what psychology is trying to do
is create a model that you can apply to every
single human being alive and and predict their behavior based
on where they fall on the spectrum between extrovert and
introvert and some other stuff that we'll get into two.
So it's not just a question of you know, people,
(07:17):
people are people. Psychology is really trying to figure this
out in a really specific manner. Yeah, and I don't
think it's like a waste of time or anything. I'm
not saying like they should just let people be who
they are. But because it is interesting, um, at the
very least, it gives us something to talk about for
forty five minutes. So let's talk about, um, what makes
(07:38):
an introvert an introvert and an extrovert an extrovert? Because
there's a lot of misconceptions, but there's a lot of
stuff that I think people assume that kind of fall
in line with psychology's view of the behavior patterns of
each right, but also a lot of overlapping patterns because
I found myself in a lot of these from each list,
So you're an ambivert, right, did were mainly introvert when
(08:01):
it comes to this list specifically, I don't know. Let's
let's go through it, okay. Uh. Introverts uh, and we'll
just go through these quickly. Need to need quiet to concentrate? Um,
for sure? Me. Are reflective, are self aware, take time
making decisions and consider them carefully. Uh. Feel comfortable being alone,
(08:23):
don't like group work, prefer to write rather than talk,
have few friendships, but are very close with those friends.
Day dream or use their imaginations to work out a problem,
Retreat into their own mind to rest, and feel drained
being around others, especially large groups. So I definitely check
every single one of those boxes, except for take time
(08:43):
making decisions and consider things carefully like I I will often.
I mean I will consider things a lot. I do
that a lot of times. But I also just kind
of make impulsive decisions sometimes as well. Yeah, but you
also clearly don't need quiet to concentrate because you sent
me Muse to listen to for the very first time
in fifteen years. Did you listen to it? I did?
(09:06):
And it's funny that this all came up. We'll tell
everyone what you sent. So I can't remember his name.
I sent you a Ruichi Sakamoto album. I think it's
called Oh five, and it's really amazing it's great. I
loved it. But as soon as I put it on
and Josh sent this to me just to say, hey,
maybe we'll just be like of one mind if we
both listened to the same music. And obviously you're kidding around.
(09:29):
But what I found was I and what I know
about myself is I can have music on if i'm
and when you you know, when we're doing stuff. You
should know studying. It's my deepest study. But I gotta
have it really quiet, really yeah, otherwise it distracts me.
I mean, I understand the principle because I can't if
it has lyrics, I just can't. I can't do it
(09:50):
at all. It's lyrics, Yeah, it's definitely lyrics for me.
Or even an instrumental song of a song that has
lyrics that I know it will bring to mind the
lyrics so has to be straight up instrumental all the way.
What if it was just lyrics that over and over
said concentrate, Josh, concentrate. That probably worked really well. I'll
have to try that sometime. Maybe I can just sit
(10:12):
on the phone with you and you can say that
over and over again while I'm studying. But for me,
that's only like really big, serious concentration. Like if I'm
working on a project, I love having podcasts or music playing. Definitely. Yeah,
that's another thing too. It's hard to listen to podcasts
or anything where people are talking too, for the exact
same reason for me for study. Yes, yeah, that's impossible. Yeah.
(10:35):
I mean you're talking about the Right Brothers and the
invention of the airplane while you're trying to study extroverts
and introverts. It doesn't really go very well. Alright, so
go ahead, go over the extroverts behavioral patterns. I'm a
little nervous talking in public, but that's because you're an
introvert extroverts And by the way, it's appropriate to write
it with an A or an oh, So extroverts or extroverts,
(10:58):
doesn't matter, it's find either way. But they enjoy social settings.
That's a big one. I've seen that their overall generally
more optimistic. They seek attention. I saw that that was
a big one too. They're energized by being around other people,
and as a result, they're friends with a lot of
different people. As a result, they're sociable and outgoing. They
(11:19):
tend to enjoy group work. That's the kind of work
that they thrive in. They prefer talking over writing, they
find it easy to express themselves, and they feel drained
when they're alone for extended periods. Yeah, I mean I
took most of those boxes, but I also took a
lot of the introvert. I feel like you don't take
many of these boxes at all. I'm looking and I
(11:40):
mean I'm pretty outgoing. I can be sociable. I mean,
it really just depends on my mood. But if you
were going to take an overall picture of me, yes,
definitely way closer to them the introvert version end of
the spectrum. What about this one, because I think this
one is kind of key and interesting. Is link drained
(12:01):
when alone for extended periods? I wouldn't say drained is
the right word, but I don't prefer to be alone
for extended periods unless I feel like being alone. But
in that case, does alone mean like just with your wife? Like?
What does alone really mean? Does alone mean literally by yourself?
So I think for extroverts they feel drained when they're
(12:21):
alone just by themselves. They don't have somebody else to
be an energy vampire on. Yeah, it's weird for me, man,
because I love being around people. But I could do
a zombie apocalypse survival thing on my own, sure, and
I think I'd be Okay. Yeah, you've got some good
good booze and some good food barbecue girl that works,
(12:44):
You'd be fine. It'd be awesome. Uh. It's also interesting
when you know, we haven't been in the office. Basically
our office environment is completely different now since the pandemic
moving forward, but we have an office still. Yeah, exactly.
But it's interesting that, like we I think before we
became a podcast network, it's interesting that we became a
(13:05):
podcast network because we were in office really full of introverts,
would you agree, Yes, yeah, for sure. And a lot
of those a lot of those people became public personalities
in the end, which is really strange despite themselves. Yeah,
it's odd. Um and and office is closing down for
(13:26):
I think extroverts has probably been a problem. I didn't
think I missed it until I went to our colleague,
Pam Peacock, had an art opening that I went to
in my neighborhood and I saw probably like twelve or
thirteen people from the office, and I had the best time,
And I was like, I didn't realize I miss seeing
(13:46):
everybody until I saw everybody. That was really sweet. Yeah,
but then I was fun. You know, I'm not seeing
him the next day. Yeah, it does sound like you
are a pretty big ambervert. So the fact that there
isn't as such a thing as an ambivert somebody who
really checks a lot of boxes on both sides, so
they pretty much fall in the middle. The fact that
they exist underscores a really important point that introverts and
(14:11):
extroverts are on a spectrum. You're not just one or
the other. As a matter of fact, Carl Young, who
actually came up with this whole idea in the twenties,
said that if you were a full extrovert or a
full introvert, you would be a lunatic. Like, there's just
no such thing. But some people lean further towards one
side or the other. But it's a spectrum, and again
(14:32):
it's not entirely clear if when you where you follow
on that spectrum would be the same from one year
to the other, one decade to the other, even you know,
one week to the other. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, I feel
like this is a good break time, all right. I'm
gonna go sit quietly and think about what I've done
and get energy. We'll be right back, Joshua, that's funny
(15:19):
you threw in that Young comment because, uh, that quote,
because I found the same one and I thought it
was interesting because, as it turns out, Carl Young was
a one of the kind of first big proponents of
studying introverts and extroverts, and a lot of his work
he's kind of known for it. I guess that is
what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not sure that
(15:40):
he actually came up with it, but he certainly popularized it,
starting in his book Psychological Types. Yeah. And Young's whole
thing was um that the division between introverts and extroverts
is which which way they directed their focus or their energy,
was it inward or outward? And that that was the
(16:02):
real distinction, And that was what people thought for a
very long time until um, as we'll see, people came
along and said, I think it's really kind of energy based,
like where did they get their stimulation? Is it inward
or outward? Um? And that seems to be the current idea.
But Young really kicked the whole thing off in the twenties. Yeah,
which is I think it's interesting that I don't know,
(16:23):
the nineteen twenties to study something that seems very modern
to me, personality types. There's also a dude, a German
I think Young was Swiss, a German name Hans een
sinc I sink not een sync added an extra in somehow,
but it sounded luscious, it did. Hans I sink Uh.
(16:46):
He was a psychologist um from Germany who operated out
of the University of London. He kind of took the
baton from Young. Uh. Did they work together or was
it just sort of a metaphorical passing of the baton?
Think it was like standing on the shoulders of giants
kind of thing. I don't think they worked together, Okay,
but he came along in like the nineties sixties and
(17:07):
developed a model of personality and he put a lot
of focus on extroversion and neuroticism, which I think is
very interesting because oh, I guess let's just talk about
the links between the two, Okay, So yeah, I think
this whole whole jam was that that was the two boxes.
You were either an extrovert and or an introvert, and
(17:28):
you were either neurotic or not neurotic. And it wasn't
on a spectrum. He didn't see those on a spectrum
when he started working. I'm not sure if he ever did.
You were either one or the other. And when you
put these two things together, um, you had a full
picture of the human being. And it seems primitive to
us today. But the basis of what he was doing, um,
(17:49):
it's it's still carried on today. He like kind of
helped build these blocks that people have built on since then. Yeah,
and uh, he worked with his wife Sybil and with
her ended up adding psychoticism as a personality trait, uh,
to create what was called the Pen model, the pe
N model of personality. And I think, you know, psychology
(18:11):
or neuroscience would later kind of say that he was
right in a lot of ways. But later on psychology
they came up with their own Big five personality traits
and didn't they dropped psychoticism as a specific category, but
they kind of took pieces of it and applied it
to the other five personality traits and came up with
(18:34):
a acronym really too, just depending on if you're an
introvert on an extrovert, right, it could be a canoe
or an ocean. Yeah, So that's kind of where we're
at today the big five personality traits. As as far
as I can tell, the dominant model of of personality
descriptors and canoe is um Conscientiousness, which is your degree
(18:56):
of impulse control or your ability to meet goals. Agree Ability,
it's your degree that you trust other people or that
you're helpful or cooperative. Neuroticism, and this is the same
that I think and uh, or I should say the
I thinks considered neuroticism. It's your degree of emotional stability
or instability, like do you get emotional really quick or
(19:16):
are you kind of like solid and steady kind of thing. Um.
And then there's also openness, which I saw described as
better better um written as imagination or intellect. So it's um,
it's openness to new experiences, but internal experience, right. And
then there's an extra version. There's your can that's right,
(19:36):
that's the canoe, or that's the ocean. I guess ocean
would be in a different order. I can do that one.
And now in the oceanal that's okay, okay, uh. And
what's really interesting about all this is when you and
of course this is what you're gonna do in a
social psychology way is to to consider, like, all right, well,
why are people like they are? Not just let's identify
(19:59):
what people are are? But is and it's sort of
goes down to the old nature or nurture thing, which
I've long been on record that kind of everything is
a mixture of both, and it seems to be in
this case. Although there have been some studies, including studies
from the I Sinks, the Screaming I Sinks, Great New bands,
(20:22):
where it seems in certain cases that nature has a
bit of a nudge over nurture. In one study in particular,
in nineteen fifty six of twins found that extra version
was correlated most amongst identical twins rather than fraternal twins,
(20:43):
which would really put a check in the box of nature. Yeah,
And I think um went on in a nineteen seventy
nine study to basically identify the size of your your cortex,
your cerebral cortex as directly related did to whether you
were an introvert extrovert. And this is ninety nine. I
(21:04):
think the Wonder Machine was maybe had just debuted and
they were probably a billion dollars a piece. So this
guy was doing this, I don't know, he might have
been dissecting people after they died or something. But he
from what neuroscience went on to kind of they went
on and through in their own two cents on this
whole thing, and they really showed that I think was
(21:24):
seemed to have been onto something. Yeah, so one thing
that we do know for sure, and there's there's so
much haziness with all this it can be a little frustrating.
But one thing that they have really established is there
is a supreme connection between being an extrovert and seeking
reward behaviors that seek rewards, and there is a pretty
(21:47):
clear demarcation between introverts and extroverts when it comes to
the I guess we can say the fact that extroverts
are much more likely to seek rewards than introverts are. Yes,
and and if you take that as correct, then that
explains every other behavior in those behavior patterns that extroverts
are looking outward for some sort of stimulation, and you
(22:11):
can see everything they do is reward seeking behavior. Not
reward like somebody gives them a TwixT or something for
saying a joke. All of that might happen, and I'm
sure an extrovert would love that, but more like by
talking to somebody they have a they get a positive
feeling from that, so they get a pop of dopamine.
That means that going and socializing with people is reward
seeking behavior. They're seeking that pop of dopamine, which is
(22:34):
as in brain terms, the reward. So that is the
central why to all of this. It depends, as we'll see,
it depends. So they have shown that there are people
that correlate with extra version as we understand them psychologically today,
that that do that do have like this larger cortex
that is linked to greater reward seeking. But it's also
(22:57):
possible that these these buckets that we've create an extrovert
an introvert don't really apply. So at the end of
the day, what we have is some neurological findings that
were not quite sure. We can't say really confidently that
they fit our model of extroverts and introverts, but it
is it is a pretty good place to start, yeah,
because they the one example they gave kind of makes
(23:18):
sense in that when thinking along those lines, which is
an introvert um, there may be an introvert who really
loves going on thrill rides and roller coasters or bungee
jumping or big adventuests like that. But they say that
extroverts getting more like more of a rush out of
something like that than an introvert might. Yeah, so anything
(23:40):
that could give you dopamine. It's not to say that
introverts don't experience that, it's just to say that extroverts
experience it more. Right, So it doesn't matter what they're
deriving pleasure from. They're getting a bigger kick or a
bigger thrill or a bigger whatever out of it. And
I've seen that this actually leads extroverts into later danger
(24:00):
than introverts, like they're because they need Yeah, so they're
likelier to go do weird stuff that could get them
hospitalized for an injury. They're more prone to accident to
being hospitalized for him they're being they're more prone to
being arrested for crime or anti social behavior. Um. And
when you understand it is there, it's a reward seeking behavior,
it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And then you know,
(24:23):
on the nurture side, there's gonna be a lot of
research obviously into everything from what your family is generally like, uh,
and the cues that you pick up from them on
how to live life to what really interests me, which
is going back to being a baby, because you know,
(24:44):
you're you're sponging it up from the time you pop
out and your breathing oxygen. Uh. And I think like
in terms of the pandemic, And they talked about this
COVID generation, not necessarily generation because you know, maybe a
couple of years, but I think there was a lot
of focus on like grade school kids and teens and
(25:05):
stuff like that and how it behaviorally affects will affect them.
But I think there's gonna be a lot of stuff
many years from now about COVID babies that didn't go
outside for their first two years. Uh. And this two
thousand six study they found that, Um, there's a few
studies here that kind of I think play into that.
(25:26):
One one was from two thousand six where they found
that mother child relationships can really have an effect on
extra version and that if you are a mother and
child who are really attached during very early stages of development,
that the kid will end up being more likely to
be extroverted later in life. Yeah, if they have what
psychologists call a secure attachment style to their mom, which
(25:49):
means that they know that at the end of the
day and they can run home to mom if something
goes wrong and Mom's going to be there for them,
which gives them the confidence to go out and explore more.
That makes sense, and it's one of those things that
it makes so much sense that you should have a
little alarm going off in your head because it's it's
one of those things that like has like somebody had
(26:11):
a study that that showed that. But it doesn't necessarily
mean Okay, if you have a secure attachment, you're definitely
going to be an extrovert. It's also not clear our
kids who are born extroverts likelier to form a secure
attachment to your mom's you know. So we're back to
like a chicken and the egg kind of thing, and
we just don't have an answer to that. So it's
really important to be careful when you're interpreting some of
(26:32):
the data that psychologists and the science press like the
throw at you is basically settled. Yeah, and it also
doesn't mean, um, you know, sometimes one of the effects
of postpartum depression can be trouble forming an attachment for
a while. Uh, that doesn't necessarily mean that that baby
is going to grow up to be an introvert because
(26:53):
mom had a harder time bonding with that child early
on because of postpartum depression. UM and I I think
we should do one on attachment styles. Like there's a
big bunch of UM stuff that's associated with it, and
it seems really it's really interesting. It does seem pretty
predictive of behavior for sure. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh, I love
(27:14):
all that stuff. Anything about like early childhood development is
just fascinating to me. I love it too, Chuck, let's
love it together. Another study in Japan, and this is
what I was kind of talking about with UM, perhaps
COVID babies playing in was they found that children of
overprotective or just let's just say protective parents have lower
(27:38):
levels of extraversion. And that's what I was talking about
with Like, if there were parents that were just did
not let their baby leave the house for two years
because of COVID, like what that would probably mean they're
probably protective and you know, maybe overly protective as opposed
to uh what Thankfully we were able to do because
(27:59):
there was no code, but we had our daughter out
very early and thought it was very important to just
get her out in the world in places where there
are lots of people, you know, even as a baby,
I just think, I don't know, I think all that
stuff really sort of matters. Well, yeah, they say socialization,
the more contact with other humans, it's the better off
the kid is. That's the presumption, right right. The thing
(28:21):
is this this uh, this Japanese study. What it seems
to have turned up is that, um, it's not lower
levels of extraversion. It sounds like it's um, greater neuroticism. Interesting,
you know what I mean, Like they're they're um, what
a lot of people think of as introversion, like social anxiety, um,
a desire to not be around people because they don't
(28:43):
feel comfortable. That's not introversion. That's a part of the
Big five though, And it's neuroticism, that's what that counts.
So like a neurotic neurotic parents are more likely to
have neurotic kids. Yeah, and it makes sense like that
you would pass that on that that could be a
learned behavior, you know, that you adopt for yourself, especially
after years of being raised that way certainly makes sense absolutely.
(29:03):
What about discipline? Uh, yeah, you spank you thank them
for being an introvert. That's the that's the phrase that
psychologists use. Those T shirts did not sell well. Got
a box of them at the pops I convention, right right, Yeah,
they're just sitting moth eaton in the attic. Uh No,
(29:24):
what it said was a sixty six nineteen sixty six
study found that sons who were punished by their parents
would exhibit more introverted behavior. Uh. This to me, especially
the fact that it was nineteen sixty six, is I
don't know. I'm just a leary of this one, because
what does punishment mean in that case in nineteen sixty six. Yeah,
(29:45):
you know what's weird is there's a lot of like
tendency to cite really old studies when it comes to
extra vision and int introversion, despite there being so much
work being done on it. So it popped up all
over the place. Yeah, it's a lot harder to punish
kids these days. I think, um, you know, and hit
(30:08):
him anymore. So you gotta do things like take things
away or have time out. And I don't I don't know.
I guess every kid is different. But when I when
I put my daughter in her room for any various reason,
like I go in there a minute later and she's
just happy as a clam and they're doing her thing
like this isn't a punishment, or if I take something away,
she's like, fine, I'll just go do this. Yeah. Like
(30:30):
that we haven't found a punishment that really works. That's
pretty awesome. I wonder how how she's going to turn
out in that result, you know, like, because even if
you don't spank your kid, if you use guilt or shame,
that's gonna screw them up possibly spanking. So like being
a parent, no thank you. Yeah, And that's something I
have to consider a lot because I have passive aggressive
(30:50):
tendencies and I had those foisted on me, and I
do not want to pass that trade along. You know. Yes,
for sure, we like to think we're raising a good
future adult. Yeah, I think you guys. I really think
you guys are I think I hope so you seem
to be doing a really good job of it. So
I guess we'll see. Um, let's take a break and
then we'll come back and answer a really important question
(31:13):
I think is on everyone's mind. Who's happier learning stop
(31:33):
with Joshua. Uh So we're back and we're talking about
a question, um that you just can't not think of
it when you start talking about introverts and extroverts, especially
when you learn that extroverts are just getting more of
(31:54):
a thrill and high from life, Like, who's happier? Does
that mean that they're happier? And the truck right, the
answer it's it's yes, they are happier. No, it's not.
It is too. I mean, study after study shows that
they have They report a greater subjective well being than
(32:14):
than people who scores introverts on these personality tests. I
just don't want to believe this. I mean, I think,
to me, this is a little bit of a chicken
or the egg thing. Are they happier because they ah
go to more parties? You know, that's a very basic
way to look at it, uh, and go to more
(32:35):
concerts and public events and things that are more fun
like don't to me, that's a very narrow view of
what happiness is though. So, but that seems to be
like one of the big explanations for why they would
be happier is it presumes that social functions and being
around other people is rewarding in a positive experience, and
(32:55):
so since they're doing that more, there of course going
to be happier. I don't. I mean, if you're an introvert,
that's just absolutely not true. Being around people is not
necessarily a more rewarding experience, That's my point. Might be
happier at your book club, you know, right, or painting
your figurines all alone listening to us, for sure. But
(33:17):
from what I've seen, study after study turns up that extroverts,
at least in our current understanding of what what subjective
well being is a k A happiness that like, they
score higher in that. But again, it doesn't mean that
we've we've captured happiness kind of like what you were saying, Yeah, like, hey,
if you want to be happy, if you want to
(33:38):
kick depression, go to more public events. Yeah. Well, what's weird, Chuck,
is there are there's some evidence that that's kind of
the case, UM, and it's found in UM like world leaders.
There are some world leaders who UM will out themselves
as as introverts. I think Justin Trudeau's the most recent one,
(33:59):
but apparently Barack Obama some other like really like well liked,
generally well liked leaders UM said later that they feel
like they were introverts and everybody like you lie and
you know, they really were introverts, but what they did
was they pushed themselves to engage in extrovert behavior and
as a result, they were richly rewarded for that. I
(34:21):
wonder if Clinton was like, not me, baby, I'm name Bevert.
I was all about it, right. I think Nixon was
the last US president that was sort of an admitted introvert.
Case closed. Yeah, it is a profession though, where uh
boy talk about being around people, like campaigning for public
(34:44):
office is a slog of meeting strangers, um And the
only experience we have with that is live shows, which
is really interesting because as an introvert, you do very
well on stage and it's probably something that you push
yourself to to eventually do. It didn't come naturally to
(35:06):
meet either, so I had to kind of work through
jitters and stuff as well. But uh I found a
distinct difference in my energy levels when we were sort
of meeting and greeting before and after shows that we
did for a long time, because as much as I
really enjoyed every single interaction, it is a very draining
(35:27):
thing to have to be on because when you meet
someone who's meeting you, they're really up and on. So
like someone can't come up and say, oh man, I'm
such a big listener for years and years, and you
can't just go, I'm really tired right now, so you
gotta be up to and like what we did times
a gazillion is a politician running for office, right exactly
(35:47):
because you really want something from those people, which is
the yeah, you know, so you gotta be on. I
know exactly what you mean, but I can imagine that drain.
The fact is, though you and I do push ourselves
to go out on stage, and we can both report
that is really really rewarding to do that. There are
a few things that make you feel as good as
(36:09):
coming off off stage after like a show that you
just knew was a good show. Right, So there is,
at least anecdotally from our perspective, there is evidence that
pushing yourself to do extroverted activities is rewarding could increase
your happiness. But the reason why it doesn't necessarily mean okay,
you have to be an extrovert to be happy is
(36:32):
that it's possible our society is really ignoring a lot
of this stuff that that would make anybody happy that's
associated with introverted behavior. To because our society places a
tremendous amount of value on extroverted traits basically, yeah, and
on the live show thing like, and I've heard this
(36:53):
from touring musicians. It's there's definitely an energy exchange that
leaves you, like I have a hard time going to
sleep after in the hotel. But when we were going
out for like, you know, six or seven shows in
a row, I would find in the week after I
got home it was a challenge for me. Oh yeah,
And I've heard that from touring musicians that you know,
(37:14):
you got on these big rock and roll tours or
what rock and roll tours? So square uh and then afterwards,
like you go back home to your family and like
that's why a lot of those marriages and families break up,
because it's just really a stark difference. Can be kind
of depressed. Even I think, why can't you be more
like the group? He's right, I'm sure that doesn't fare
(37:37):
very well. They'll do anything. So um. So, the thing is,
if you look at how at least I should say
Western society. I think I said society before, but Western
society really places a lot of value on extroverted behaviors,
being outgoing, being friendly, being sociable, being um a leader,
(37:57):
being unafraid, you know, Captain of Indo Street kind of stuff. Like,
look at our movie stars. We don't have introverted movie
stars typically. I don't agree with that. Actually, I think
there's a lot of introverted movie stars. Okay, but do
they behave introverted on screen? Well, no, that's my point.
I think that's all the act. And I think as
real personality goes, I think there are many introverted movie stars, right,
(38:20):
So if they just acted like their own introverted selves,
society wouldn't place any sort of value on that. It
would be movie starting, right exactly. They place an emphasis
on the extroverted behavior they're engaging in. You see what
I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the point. Like,
if you are in our society, if you act extroverted,
of course you're going to be happy. But I think
we're also missing all of the things that can make
(38:42):
an introverted person happy that apply as well. Yeah, and
you you can see this in the sort of early
mid two thousand's when like every office in the world
became this big, huge open warehouse space, which was again
for us for an office of introverts was just a
nightmare for so many people. But I think career advancement
(39:06):
in those situations. You know, the boss, he's like, you know,
so and so is always just bopping around generating ideas,
talking to people like they're going to get more attention
than someone who was like where did my cubicle go? Yeah,
which isn't fair, you know, to have done to everyone,
But that's I mean, that's that at Western emphasis on
(39:28):
on extroverted behavior. Same with like brainstorming sessions. That's the
opposite of what introverts want to do, and it's also
the opposite of of what research shows that an introverted
person um is going to thrive in. They're gonna not
gonna come up with their best ideas in that setting.
They're going to come up with their best ideas like
alone on a walk or something. Yeah, you know what
they should do. It's interesting. Like a really good boss
(39:51):
I think would gather the people for the meeting and say,
all right, so coming up next, we need to solve
this problem. We're gonna have a big brainstorming session for
anyone who wants to stay. But if you want to
go back to your office and really have some alone
time to think about this, then do that, like offer
up both alternatives. Yes, exactly. I think that's great. The
ambivert way up with the ambiverts. As far as the
(40:15):
idea of who is healthier, that's a big one too.
It's really easy to say that, like, well here, let's
just say this. What's happened with all of the information
that we found is there's been a lot of misinterpretation
of studies and data where the press will basically say, like,
(40:35):
if you're an introvert, you're more prone to anxiety. And
people that are more prone to anxiety or more prone
to have heart attacks, So introverts are more prone to
have heart attacks, right precisely. And what they're doing is
maybe they're talking about a study, but they're uh, they're
more often than not trying to put a scientific gloss
on just a popular myth. Right, Yeah, and that's it.
That happens a lot. There was another study that looked
(40:58):
at people who have like really negat of outlooks on
life and have heart disease and compared them to people
who are less negative and um have heart disease, and
looked at health outcomes and of course, the more negative
people had worse health outcomes, and of course the headline
was introverts experience more health problems. Studies suggests kind of thing,
and that introverts was nowhere in the study anywhere. They
(41:20):
didn't use it anywhere, but that got converted to introverts.
That is a huge problem at the very least it
is in public opinion. But the bigger problem is, like
we as the public, can be forgiven, does this kind
of just take that up. It's not our job. We're
just kind of interested in that kind of thing, and
we can be forgiven for making those mistakes. What shouldn't
(41:41):
be forgiven is when psychologists and other people working in
these fields do that same thing, make those mistakes, use
that shorthand and take this as anything more than just
a model that is a work in progress at best
right now right And also the notion that we've we've
got it all figured out when it comes to connecting
(42:02):
health with personality, um that that is like a lot
of hubris to suggest that. So there's still so much
more I think that's going to be uncovered when connecting
things like heart disease and depression and and stuff like that.
We just don't know. Yeah, we just don't know. And
that's a good thing to remember when it comes to
introversion and extroversion. Um. And there's people out there that say,
(42:25):
you know, I think a lot of this is just
basically bunk, if not all of it together. That their
their their premise is basically what we've been talking about,
that people are just too complex to put into a
set of categories. And yeah, the Big five Personality Traits
is probably the most complex and robust personality inventory that
(42:48):
we've come up with yet. But it's still five different
categories that you kind of that interact with one another.
And it seems really primitive when you step back and
look at that, when you consider just how complex not
just people are, but the experiences people have on a
moment to moment basis that influence our moods and our
decisions and our behavior too. Yeah, and there are people
(43:11):
who can solidly be like oh no, I'm well young
said that's not possible, you know what I mean, that
would consider themselves like I'm an introvert, Like trust me,
I'm an introvert, or someone who is clearly an extrovert.
There are those people that have maybe very very little
overlap with the other. Um, but with anything on a spectrum,
(43:33):
it's just I don't know, it's very personal. I think
it's super interesting to think about for yourself because I
think it helps you navigate the world if you kind
of think about it. But I also think you can
overthink that stuff. Yeah, some people say that what you
just described is actually harmful, that people will start to
act to type if they are like, well, I'm an introvert.
(43:55):
I guess I might as well not go to that
party and they miss meeting you know, a new friend,
or that you don't take on that project at work
that would open a new door for him. Like, some
people say this kind of stuff is harmful labeling people
like that rather than giving everybody like, hey, some people
are like this, there's this behavior, there's that behavior, and
just letting people be as they are. UM that that
(44:16):
that's a much better idea. Yeah, I think I agree
with that. Yeah. And then lastly, the other thing, Chuck
is okay, So let's say the Big five personality inventory.
It becomes just more and more robust, and it becomes
clear that yes, this thing is absolutely accurate and you
can use it to predict the behavior of anybody, like,
would we want to even have that in existence? Do
(44:38):
we want to know people like that? And like if
we did have something that was that accurate, like what
ends would it be used to? You know, it's just
a question to chew on, especially if you're an introvert. Yeah,
these are my favorite ones. I like the ones where
we can just dish, you know. Yeah, I love dishing
with you. Uh, let's see you got anything else? I
(45:00):
got nothing else. I don't have anything else either. And
since both of us said that, of course, it means
it's time for listener mayo. I'm going to call this
pronunciation support, not in the way that you might think. Hey, guys,
love the show writing to urge you to be less
hard on yourselves and less accepting of criticism from listeners
(45:21):
about so called language mistakes. For example, in the recent
Roe v Waite episode, Chuck at first pronounced substantive with
the accident on the second syllable and instead of substantive,
and it made such an impression on him that he
made fun of himself later in the episode. I tend
to do that. Uh, Yetsi is from Yetzi by the way, Well,
(45:41):
as it happens, both Oxford and Miriam Webster document Chuck's
pronunciation of the word as such, and Josh check out
what some dictionaries have come to say about contemporary versus contemporaneous.
Oh boy, I'm excited about this one. The truth is
that even dictionaries are nothing more than snapshots in time
of how language is used, and in perfect ones at that,
(46:03):
I might recommend doing an episode on linguistic descriptivism. Uh.
In short, language is basically a game in which the
object is communicate. It's pretty rare for you guys his
native English speakers to use English in a way that could,
by any meaningful metric, be considered a mistake. Maybe a
linguistic descriptivism episode would be would put to bed some
(46:23):
of the more pedantic criticisms you seem to get from listeners.
It's a great idea. Nah, who am I kidding that? Yeah,
so with many fondness, I'm sure if that's correct. Uh.
But when they got the point across exactly uh, and
that's from yet Sie Lindenbaum, my new favorite listener. And
(46:43):
then when I told yet See that I was reading this,
they're back and said, yes, yes, I'm going to be
the coolest member of my descriptive Ist Linguistics Club this week.
I love that that's a club man, Yets. He's great.
I'm gonna take Yetsi's advice and really unlow on the
next person who writes in to tell us where you've
mispronounced something. Yeah, tell him, sick him, that's right, tell
(47:06):
him sent you. Um. Well, if you want to be
like Yets and just be totally great, you can take
a shot at it in an email. Send it off
to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you
Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I
Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh,
and there's Chuck and Jerry's not here, but we suspect
she'll be along shortly, and that makes this, of course
stuff you should know. Yeah, it's funny. This one came
(00:23):
up from you. Why because semi recently we were hanging
out with our friends and Emily, We're talking about introverts
and extroverts and Emily said, someone said, yeah, you know,
Chuck is obviously an extrovert, and uh, Emily said, no,
he's not. It's a lie. She said, Chuck is an
(00:44):
introvert because he loses energy and groups of people and
he recharges by being alone. And I had never really
heard that, but that's true. But then after doing all
this research, like I am, uh, very much in the
middle of the spectrum, very and not I guess, not
(01:07):
quite an ambivert, and that what it's called. It really
is completely dependent for me on any situation, who the
people are, where I am at the time. It's very,
very dependent on a host of factors. Yes, so that
means you are normal, uh, from from what I can tell.
(01:29):
And I'm really excited about this one because it's like
Christmas and Halloween and Easter all wrapped up together, because
we get the tea off on social psychology, on the
science press, um, all sorts of people and really kind
of disassemble something I think most people walking around think
they understand, but from everything I can tell, misunderstand is
(01:50):
a much better way to put it. Yeah. Absolutely, And
I think this will get a lot of listener feedback
because I think a lot of people spend time thinking
about this stuff. Yeah. Um, And it's like, I don't know,
Like I said, it's very easy to put people in buckets.
I think if we were to talk about yourself and myself,
people would say, well, Chucks an extrovert. Josh is an introvert.
(02:11):
We can tell by things they've said over the years.
But it's just not that easy. No, No, but you're right,
and I should say you weren't right. Emily was right.
You recounted Emily being right. Usually the case if you
just kind of boil it down to that, that is,
it seems to be from what we can tell the UM.
The one distinction between introverts and extroverts, like where you
(02:32):
gather your energy from? Is it from other people or
is it from yourself not being around other people? Yeah,
but also it's like I think it's and we'll we'll
debunk a lot of this stuff, but um, it's not
as easy as you know, the fact that you don't
want to be talked to on the Appalachian Trail or
meet other hikers, that doesn't mean you're an introvert. Because
(02:52):
I've also seen you be the life of a party.
Well that's when you get a little Captain Morgan. But
like I was thinking about just you know, work events
and parties and things like that. If it's like a
party with my friends, I'm usually all about it. But
I could also be in the mood to not even
(03:13):
go or at a podcast conference. You know, I am
way more likely to just sit in my room than
go to the mixer unless I know that, like there's
gonna be people at the mixer I would really want
to get to know and meet, And then I'm all
of a sudden all about it. So it really just depends.
That's me. I feel like I'm learning a lot about
you right now because I just presumed you were always
(03:33):
at those mixers. No, man, I'm in the room a lot.
I mean you were always in the room, but many
times in the room. Well there's coffee in the room.
So just so let's let's kind of um, let's talk
a little bit about introverts and extroverts. There's a woman
named Susan Kane who wrote a book called Quiet, The
Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking,
And she basically says it comes down to a preference
(03:56):
of where you get your stimulation, like do you prefer
lower stimulation environments do you prefer high stimulation environments? And
that it is just a preference. And in a lot
of ways she's right, But in a lot of ways
she's really wrong because it's not just a preference from
what from if you're a psychologist or even a neuroscientist, like,
it's an actual, ingrained, possibly um brain based um biological
(04:22):
response that that people may or may not be born with. Yeah,
and we're gonna we're gonna throw a lot of studies
out in this one and a lot of statistics. There
was a random sample of results in a Myers Briggs
personality inventory that said the introverts and I love this
stat They might as well have just called it fifty
(04:43):
fifty Uh, Introverts made up fifty point seven and extroverts
for forty nine point three, with about forty six percent
of men and fifty two percent of women being extroverted.
In fifty percent of men and forty seven percent of
women is introverted. But you can find a pretty wide
range if you go poking around the internet on how
(05:05):
many people they say are introverted or extroverted. Yeah, the
one I I've seen all over the places somewhere between
sixteen and fifty percent of people, right, introverts? Right, sure, Well,
I bet you they're right. Well yeah, yeah, somewhere in
there they might be nailing it, unless it pans out
the introverts don't actually exist. So those numbers you threw out,
(05:28):
and I think the sixteen to fifty that I threw
out too, that's typically in the us UM. But the
thing is, it's not entirely clear, Chuck, if those numbers
hold steady, like if you did that same random sample
of Myers Briggs results, you know ten years on which
you get similar numbers, and if you wouldn't, why is
that the case? Is it because somehow like populations are shifting,
(05:49):
or is it because you know, if you would sample
those exact same people from ten years later. Was if
and they results were different? Would it be because people
act differently because of their moods? And then there's not
like a lifelong bucket of introvert or extrovert that you
can actually label people with, right, or if people uh
(06:12):
really evolve? Uh, And I'd say evolve or devolved? I
guess in either direction. Um could do some people that
really used to be introverted. You know, you hear stories
where people say, well, then I learned to come out
of my shell for these reasons, and now I'm a
completely different person. And I think it's just one of
these things where it is all wholly dependent on an individual.
(06:34):
They're like, now I go beat up introverts on Friday
nights with my friends. But like, this stuff is fun
to talk about, but I just don't know that anyone
can bucket people. You can make some generalizations, but I
think it's so specific to each person that it's uh,
which is sort of some of your closing thoughts, which
we'll get to at the end. Yeah, but but we
(06:55):
have a problem here, then we can at least set
it up right, because what psychology is trying to do
is create a model that you can apply to every
single human being alive and and predict their behavior based
on where they fall on the spectrum between extrovert and
introvert and some other stuff that we'll get into two.
So it's not just a question of you know, people,
(07:17):
people are people. Psychology is really trying to figure this
out in a really specific manner. Yeah, and I don't
think it's like a waste of time or anything. I'm
not saying like they should just let people be who
they are. But because it is interesting, um, at the
very least, it gives us something to talk about for
forty five minutes. So let's talk about, um, what makes
(07:38):
an introvert an introvert and an extrovert an extrovert? Because
there's a lot of misconceptions, but there's a lot of
stuff that I think people assume that kind of fall
in line with psychology's view of the behavior patterns of
each right, but also a lot of overlapping patterns because
I found myself in a lot of these from each list,
So you're an ambivert, right, did were mainly introvert when
(08:01):
it comes to this list specifically, I don't know. Let's
let's go through it, okay. Uh. Introverts uh, and we'll
just go through these quickly. Need to need quiet to concentrate? Um,
for sure? Me. Are reflective, are self aware, take time
making decisions and consider them carefully. Uh. Feel comfortable being alone,
(08:23):
don't like group work, prefer to write rather than talk,
have few friendships, but are very close with those friends.
Day dream or use their imaginations to work out a problem,
Retreat into their own mind to rest, and feel drained
being around others, especially large groups. So I definitely check
every single one of those boxes, except for take time
(08:43):
making decisions and consider things carefully like I I will often.
I mean I will consider things a lot. I do
that a lot of times. But I also just kind
of make impulsive decisions sometimes as well. Yeah, but you
also clearly don't need quiet to concentrate because you sent
me Muse to listen to for the very first time
in fifteen years. Did you listen to it? I did?
(09:06):
And it's funny that this all came up. We'll tell
everyone what you sent. So I can't remember his name.
I sent you a Ruichi Sakamoto album. I think it's
called Oh five, and it's really amazing it's great. I
loved it. But as soon as I put it on
and Josh sent this to me just to say, hey,
maybe we'll just be like of one mind if we
both listened to the same music. And obviously you're kidding around.
(09:29):
But what I found was I and what I know
about myself is I can have music on if i'm
and when you you know, when we're doing stuff. You
should know studying. It's my deepest study. But I gotta
have it really quiet, really yeah, otherwise it distracts me.
I mean, I understand the principle because I can't if
it has lyrics, I just can't. I can't do it
(09:50):
at all. It's lyrics, Yeah, it's definitely lyrics for me.
Or even an instrumental song of a song that has
lyrics that I know it will bring to mind the
lyrics so has to be straight up instrumental all the way.
What if it was just lyrics that over and over
said concentrate, Josh, concentrate. That probably worked really well. I'll
have to try that sometime. Maybe I can just sit
(10:12):
on the phone with you and you can say that
over and over again while I'm studying. But for me,
that's only like really big, serious concentration. Like if I'm
working on a project, I love having podcasts or music playing. Definitely. Yeah,
that's another thing too. It's hard to listen to podcasts
or anything where people are talking too, for the exact
same reason for me for study. Yes, yeah, that's impossible. Yeah.
(10:35):
I mean you're talking about the Right Brothers and the
invention of the airplane while you're trying to study extroverts
and introverts. It doesn't really go very well. Alright, so
go ahead, go over the extroverts behavioral patterns. I'm a
little nervous talking in public, but that's because you're an
introvert extroverts And by the way, it's appropriate to write
it with an A or an oh, So extroverts or extroverts,
(10:58):
doesn't matter, it's find either way. But they enjoy social settings.
That's a big one. I've seen that their overall generally
more optimistic. They seek attention. I saw that that was
a big one too. They're energized by being around other people,
and as a result, they're friends with a lot of
different people. As a result, they're sociable and outgoing. They
(11:19):
tend to enjoy group work. That's the kind of work
that they thrive in. They prefer talking over writing, they
find it easy to express themselves, and they feel drained
when they're alone for extended periods. Yeah, I mean I
took most of those boxes, but I also took a
lot of the introvert. I feel like you don't take
many of these boxes at all. I'm looking and I
(11:40):
mean I'm pretty outgoing. I can be sociable. I mean,
it really just depends on my mood. But if you
were going to take an overall picture of me, yes,
definitely way closer to them the introvert version end of
the spectrum. What about this one, because I think this
one is kind of key and interesting. Is link drained
(12:01):
when alone for extended periods? I wouldn't say drained is
the right word, but I don't prefer to be alone
for extended periods unless I feel like being alone. But
in that case, does alone mean like just with your wife? Like?
What does alone really mean? Does alone mean literally by yourself?
So I think for extroverts they feel drained when they're
(12:21):
alone just by themselves. They don't have somebody else to
be an energy vampire on. Yeah, it's weird for me, man,
because I love being around people. But I could do
a zombie apocalypse survival thing on my own, sure, and
I think I'd be Okay. Yeah, you've got some good
good booze and some good food barbecue girl that works,
(12:44):
You'd be fine. It'd be awesome. Uh. It's also interesting
when you know, we haven't been in the office. Basically
our office environment is completely different now since the pandemic
moving forward, but we have an office still. Yeah, exactly.
But it's interesting that, like we I think before we
became a podcast network, it's interesting that we became a
(13:05):
podcast network because we were in office really full of introverts,
would you agree, Yes, yeah, for sure. And a lot
of those a lot of those people became public personalities
in the end, which is really strange despite themselves. Yeah,
it's odd. Um and and office is closing down for
(13:26):
I think extroverts has probably been a problem. I didn't
think I missed it until I went to our colleague,
Pam Peacock, had an art opening that I went to
in my neighborhood and I saw probably like twelve or
thirteen people from the office, and I had the best time,
And I was like, I didn't realize I miss seeing
(13:46):
everybody until I saw everybody. That was really sweet. Yeah,
but then I was fun. You know, I'm not seeing
him the next day. Yeah, it does sound like you
are a pretty big ambervert. So the fact that there
isn't as such a thing as an ambivert somebody who
really checks a lot of boxes on both sides, so
they pretty much fall in the middle. The fact that
they exist underscores a really important point that introverts and
(14:11):
extroverts are on a spectrum. You're not just one or
the other. As a matter of fact, Carl Young, who
actually came up with this whole idea in the twenties,
said that if you were a full extrovert or a
full introvert, you would be a lunatic. Like, there's just
no such thing. But some people lean further towards one
side or the other. But it's a spectrum, and again
(14:32):
it's not entirely clear if when you where you follow
on that spectrum would be the same from one year
to the other, one decade to the other, even you know,
one week to the other. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, I feel
like this is a good break time, all right. I'm
gonna go sit quietly and think about what I've done
and get energy. We'll be right back, Joshua, that's funny
(15:19):
you threw in that Young comment because, uh, that quote,
because I found the same one and I thought it
was interesting because, as it turns out, Carl Young was
a one of the kind of first big proponents of
studying introverts and extroverts, and a lot of his work
he's kind of known for it. I guess that is
what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not sure that
(15:40):
he actually came up with it, but he certainly popularized it,
starting in his book Psychological Types. Yeah. And Young's whole
thing was um that the division between introverts and extroverts
is which which way they directed their focus or their energy,
was it inward or outward? And that that was the
(16:02):
real distinction, And that was what people thought for a
very long time until um, as we'll see, people came
along and said, I think it's really kind of energy based,
like where did they get their stimulation? Is it inward
or outward? Um? And that seems to be the current idea.
But Young really kicked the whole thing off in the twenties. Yeah,
which is I think it's interesting that I don't know,
(16:23):
the nineteen twenties to study something that seems very modern
to me, personality types. There's also a dude, a German
I think Young was Swiss, a German name Hans een
sinc I sink not een sync added an extra in somehow,
but it sounded luscious, it did. Hans I sink Uh.
(16:46):
He was a psychologist um from Germany who operated out
of the University of London. He kind of took the
baton from Young. Uh. Did they work together or was
it just sort of a metaphorical passing of the baton?
Think it was like standing on the shoulders of giants
kind of thing. I don't think they worked together, Okay,
but he came along in like the nineties sixties and
(17:07):
developed a model of personality and he put a lot
of focus on extroversion and neuroticism, which I think is
very interesting because oh, I guess let's just talk about
the links between the two, Okay, So yeah, I think
this whole whole jam was that that was the two boxes.
You were either an extrovert and or an introvert, and
(17:28):
you were either neurotic or not neurotic. And it wasn't
on a spectrum. He didn't see those on a spectrum
when he started working. I'm not sure if he ever did.
You were either one or the other. And when you
put these two things together, um, you had a full
picture of the human being. And it seems primitive to
us today. But the basis of what he was doing, um,
(17:49):
it's it's still carried on today. He like kind of
helped build these blocks that people have built on since then. Yeah,
and uh, he worked with his wife Sybil and with
her ended up adding psychoticism as a personality trait, uh,
to create what was called the Pen model, the pe
N model of personality. And I think, you know, psychology
(18:11):
or neuroscience would later kind of say that he was
right in a lot of ways. But later on psychology
they came up with their own Big five personality traits
and didn't they dropped psychoticism as a specific category, but
they kind of took pieces of it and applied it
to the other five personality traits and came up with
(18:34):
a acronym really too, just depending on if you're an
introvert on an extrovert, right, it could be a canoe
or an ocean. Yeah, So that's kind of where we're
at today the big five personality traits. As as far
as I can tell, the dominant model of of personality
descriptors and canoe is um Conscientiousness, which is your degree
(18:56):
of impulse control or your ability to meet goals. Agree Ability,
it's your degree that you trust other people or that
you're helpful or cooperative. Neuroticism, and this is the same
that I think and uh, or I should say the
I thinks considered neuroticism. It's your degree of emotional stability
or instability, like do you get emotional really quick or
(19:16):
are you kind of like solid and steady kind of thing. Um.
And then there's also openness, which I saw described as
better better um written as imagination or intellect. So it's um,
it's openness to new experiences, but internal experience, right. And
then there's an extra version. There's your can that's right,
(19:36):
that's the canoe, or that's the ocean. I guess ocean
would be in a different order. I can do that one.
And now in the oceanal that's okay, okay, uh. And
what's really interesting about all this is when you and
of course this is what you're gonna do in a
social psychology way is to to consider, like, all right, well,
why are people like they are? Not just let's identify
(19:59):
what people are are? But is and it's sort of
goes down to the old nature or nurture thing, which
I've long been on record that kind of everything is
a mixture of both, and it seems to be in
this case. Although there have been some studies, including studies
from the I Sinks, the Screaming I Sinks, Great New bands,
(20:22):
where it seems in certain cases that nature has a
bit of a nudge over nurture. In one study in particular,
in nineteen fifty six of twins found that extra version
was correlated most amongst identical twins rather than fraternal twins,
(20:43):
which would really put a check in the box of nature. Yeah,
And I think um went on in a nineteen seventy
nine study to basically identify the size of your your cortex,
your cerebral cortex as directly related did to whether you
were an introvert extrovert. And this is ninety nine. I
(21:04):
think the Wonder Machine was maybe had just debuted and
they were probably a billion dollars a piece. So this
guy was doing this, I don't know, he might have
been dissecting people after they died or something. But he
from what neuroscience went on to kind of they went
on and through in their own two cents on this
whole thing, and they really showed that I think was
(21:24):
seemed to have been onto something. Yeah, so one thing
that we do know for sure, and there's there's so
much haziness with all this it can be a little frustrating.
But one thing that they have really established is there
is a supreme connection between being an extrovert and seeking
reward behaviors that seek rewards, and there is a pretty
(21:47):
clear demarcation between introverts and extroverts when it comes to
the I guess we can say the fact that extroverts
are much more likely to seek rewards than introverts are. Yes,
and and if you take that as correct, then that
explains every other behavior in those behavior patterns that extroverts
are looking outward for some sort of stimulation, and you
(22:11):
can see everything they do is reward seeking behavior. Not
reward like somebody gives them a TwixT or something for
saying a joke. All of that might happen, and I'm
sure an extrovert would love that, but more like by
talking to somebody they have a they get a positive
feeling from that, so they get a pop of dopamine.
That means that going and socializing with people is reward
seeking behavior. They're seeking that pop of dopamine, which is
(22:34):
as in brain terms, the reward. So that is the
central why to all of this. It depends, as we'll see,
it depends. So they have shown that there are people
that correlate with extra version as we understand them psychologically today,
that that do that do have like this larger cortex
that is linked to greater reward seeking. But it's also
(22:57):
possible that these these buckets that we've create an extrovert
an introvert don't really apply. So at the end of
the day, what we have is some neurological findings that
were not quite sure. We can't say really confidently that
they fit our model of extroverts and introverts, but it
is it is a pretty good place to start, yeah,
because they the one example they gave kind of makes
(23:18):
sense in that when thinking along those lines, which is
an introvert um, there may be an introvert who really
loves going on thrill rides and roller coasters or bungee
jumping or big adventuests like that. But they say that
extroverts getting more like more of a rush out of
something like that than an introvert might. Yeah, so anything
(23:40):
that could give you dopamine. It's not to say that
introverts don't experience that, it's just to say that extroverts
experience it more. Right, So it doesn't matter what they're
deriving pleasure from. They're getting a bigger kick or a
bigger thrill or a bigger whatever out of it. And
I've seen that this actually leads extroverts into later danger
(24:00):
than introverts, like they're because they need Yeah, so they're
likelier to go do weird stuff that could get them
hospitalized for an injury. They're more prone to accident to
being hospitalized for him they're being they're more prone to
being arrested for crime or anti social behavior. Um. And
when you understand it is there, it's a reward seeking behavior,
it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And then you know,
(24:23):
on the nurture side, there's gonna be a lot of
research obviously into everything from what your family is generally like, uh,
and the cues that you pick up from them on
how to live life to what really interests me, which
is going back to being a baby, because you know,
(24:44):
you're you're sponging it up from the time you pop
out and your breathing oxygen. Uh. And I think like
in terms of the pandemic, And they talked about this
COVID generation, not necessarily generation because you know, maybe a
couple of years, but I think there was a lot
of focus on like grade school kids and teens and
(25:05):
stuff like that and how it behaviorally affects will affect them.
But I think there's gonna be a lot of stuff
many years from now about COVID babies that didn't go
outside for their first two years. Uh. And this two
thousand six study they found that, Um, there's a few
studies here that kind of I think play into that.
(25:26):
One one was from two thousand six where they found
that mother child relationships can really have an effect on
extra version and that if you are a mother and
child who are really attached during very early stages of development,
that the kid will end up being more likely to
be extroverted later in life. Yeah, if they have what
psychologists call a secure attachment style to their mom, which
(25:49):
means that they know that at the end of the
day and they can run home to mom if something
goes wrong and Mom's going to be there for them,
which gives them the confidence to go out and explore more.
That makes sense, and it's one of those things that
it makes so much sense that you should have a
little alarm going off in your head because it's it's
one of those things that like has like somebody had
(26:11):
a study that that showed that. But it doesn't necessarily
mean Okay, if you have a secure attachment, you're definitely
going to be an extrovert. It's also not clear our
kids who are born extroverts likelier to form a secure
attachment to your mom's you know. So we're back to
like a chicken and the egg kind of thing, and
we just don't have an answer to that. So it's
really important to be careful when you're interpreting some of
(26:32):
the data that psychologists and the science press like the
throw at you is basically settled. Yeah, and it also
doesn't mean, um, you know, sometimes one of the effects
of postpartum depression can be trouble forming an attachment for
a while. Uh, that doesn't necessarily mean that that baby
is going to grow up to be an introvert because
(26:53):
mom had a harder time bonding with that child early
on because of postpartum depression. UM and I I think
we should do one on attachment styles. Like there's a
big bunch of UM stuff that's associated with it, and
it seems really it's really interesting. It does seem pretty
predictive of behavior for sure. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh, I love
(27:14):
all that stuff. Anything about like early childhood development is
just fascinating to me. I love it too, Chuck, let's
love it together. Another study in Japan, and this is
what I was kind of talking about with UM, perhaps
COVID babies playing in was they found that children of
overprotective or just let's just say protective parents have lower
(27:38):
levels of extraversion. And that's what I was talking about
with Like, if there were parents that were just did
not let their baby leave the house for two years
because of COVID, like what that would probably mean they're
probably protective and you know, maybe overly protective as opposed
to uh what Thankfully we were able to do because
(27:59):
there was no code, but we had our daughter out
very early and thought it was very important to just
get her out in the world in places where there
are lots of people, you know, even as a baby,
I just think, I don't know, I think all that
stuff really sort of matters. Well, yeah, they say socialization,
the more contact with other humans, it's the better off
the kid is. That's the presumption, right right. The thing
(28:21):
is this this uh, this Japanese study. What it seems
to have turned up is that, um, it's not lower
levels of extraversion. It sounds like it's um, greater neuroticism. Interesting,
you know what I mean, Like they're they're um, what
a lot of people think of as introversion, like social anxiety, um,
a desire to not be around people because they don't
(28:43):
feel comfortable. That's not introversion. That's a part of the
Big five though, And it's neuroticism, that's what that counts.
So like a neurotic neurotic parents are more likely to
have neurotic kids. Yeah, and it makes sense like that
you would pass that on that that could be a
learned behavior, you know, that you adopt for yourself, especially
after years of being raised that way certainly makes sense absolutely.
(29:03):
What about discipline? Uh, yeah, you spank you thank them
for being an introvert. That's the that's the phrase that
psychologists use. Those T shirts did not sell well. Got
a box of them at the pops I convention, right right, Yeah,
they're just sitting moth eaton in the attic. Uh No,
(29:24):
what it said was a sixty six nineteen sixty six
study found that sons who were punished by their parents
would exhibit more introverted behavior. Uh. This to me, especially
the fact that it was nineteen sixty six, is I
don't know. I'm just a leary of this one, because
what does punishment mean in that case in nineteen sixty six. Yeah,
(29:45):
you know what's weird is there's a lot of like
tendency to cite really old studies when it comes to
extra vision and int introversion, despite there being so much
work being done on it. So it popped up all
over the place. Yeah, it's a lot harder to punish
kids these days. I think, um, you know, and hit
(30:08):
him anymore. So you gotta do things like take things
away or have time out. And I don't I don't know.
I guess every kid is different. But when I when
I put my daughter in her room for any various reason,
like I go in there a minute later and she's
just happy as a clam and they're doing her thing
like this isn't a punishment, or if I take something away,
she's like, fine, I'll just go do this. Yeah. Like
(30:30):
that we haven't found a punishment that really works. That's
pretty awesome. I wonder how how she's going to turn
out in that result, you know, like, because even if
you don't spank your kid, if you use guilt or shame,
that's gonna screw them up possibly spanking. So like being
a parent, no thank you. Yeah, And that's something I
have to consider a lot because I have passive aggressive
(30:50):
tendencies and I had those foisted on me, and I
do not want to pass that trade along. You know. Yes,
for sure, we like to think we're raising a good
future adult. Yeah, I think you guys. I really think
you guys are I think I hope so you seem
to be doing a really good job of it. So
I guess we'll see. Um, let's take a break and
then we'll come back and answer a really important question
(31:13):
I think is on everyone's mind. Who's happier learning stop
(31:33):
with Joshua. Uh So we're back and we're talking about
a question, um that you just can't not think of
it when you start talking about introverts and extroverts, especially
when you learn that extroverts are just getting more of
(31:54):
a thrill and high from life, Like, who's happier? Does
that mean that they're happier? And the truck right, the
answer it's it's yes, they are happier. No, it's not.
It is too. I mean, study after study shows that
they have They report a greater subjective well being than
(32:14):
than people who scores introverts on these personality tests. I
just don't want to believe this. I mean, I think,
to me, this is a little bit of a chicken
or the egg thing. Are they happier because they ah
go to more parties? You know, that's a very basic
way to look at it, uh, and go to more
(32:35):
concerts and public events and things that are more fun
like don't to me, that's a very narrow view of
what happiness is though. So, but that seems to be
like one of the big explanations for why they would
be happier is it presumes that social functions and being
around other people is rewarding in a positive experience, and
(32:55):
so since they're doing that more, there of course going
to be happier. I don't. I mean, if you're an introvert,
that's just absolutely not true. Being around people is not
necessarily a more rewarding experience, That's my point. Might be
happier at your book club, you know, right, or painting
your figurines all alone listening to us, for sure. But
(33:17):
from what I've seen, study after study turns up that extroverts,
at least in our current understanding of what what subjective
well being is a k A happiness that like, they
score higher in that. But again, it doesn't mean that
we've we've captured happiness kind of like what you were saying, Yeah, like, hey,
if you want to be happy, if you want to
(33:38):
kick depression, go to more public events. Yeah. Well, what's weird, Chuck,
is there are there's some evidence that that's kind of
the case, UM, and it's found in UM like world leaders.
There are some world leaders who UM will out themselves
as as introverts. I think Justin Trudeau's the most recent one,
(33:59):
but apparently Barack Obama some other like really like well liked,
generally well liked leaders UM said later that they feel
like they were introverts and everybody like you lie and
you know, they really were introverts, but what they did
was they pushed themselves to engage in extrovert behavior and
as a result, they were richly rewarded for that. I
(34:21):
wonder if Clinton was like, not me, baby, I'm name Bevert.
I was all about it, right. I think Nixon was
the last US president that was sort of an admitted introvert.
Case closed. Yeah, it is a profession though, where uh
boy talk about being around people, like campaigning for public
(34:44):
office is a slog of meeting strangers, um And the
only experience we have with that is live shows, which
is really interesting because as an introvert, you do very
well on stage and it's probably something that you push
yourself to to eventually do. It didn't come naturally to
(35:06):
meet either, so I had to kind of work through
jitters and stuff as well. But uh I found a
distinct difference in my energy levels when we were sort
of meeting and greeting before and after shows that we
did for a long time, because as much as I
really enjoyed every single interaction, it is a very draining
(35:27):
thing to have to be on because when you meet
someone who's meeting you, they're really up and on. So
like someone can't come up and say, oh man, I'm
such a big listener for years and years, and you
can't just go, I'm really tired right now, so you
gotta be up to and like what we did times
a gazillion is a politician running for office, right exactly
(35:47):
because you really want something from those people, which is
the yeah, you know, so you gotta be on. I
know exactly what you mean, but I can imagine that drain.
The fact is, though you and I do push ourselves
to go out on stage, and we can both report
that is really really rewarding to do that. There are
a few things that make you feel as good as
(36:09):
coming off off stage after like a show that you
just knew was a good show. Right, So there is,
at least anecdotally from our perspective, there is evidence that
pushing yourself to do extroverted activities is rewarding could increase
your happiness. But the reason why it doesn't necessarily mean okay,
you have to be an extrovert to be happy is
(36:32):
that it's possible our society is really ignoring a lot
of this stuff that that would make anybody happy that's
associated with introverted behavior. To because our society places a
tremendous amount of value on extroverted traits basically, yeah, and
on the live show thing like, and I've heard this
(36:53):
from touring musicians. It's there's definitely an energy exchange that
leaves you, like I have a hard time going to
sleep after in the hotel. But when we were going
out for like, you know, six or seven shows in
a row, I would find in the week after I
got home it was a challenge for me. Oh yeah,
And I've heard that from touring musicians that you know,
(37:14):
you got on these big rock and roll tours or
what rock and roll tours? So square uh and then afterwards,
like you go back home to your family and like
that's why a lot of those marriages and families break up,
because it's just really a stark difference. Can be kind
of depressed. Even I think, why can't you be more
like the group? He's right, I'm sure that doesn't fare
(37:37):
very well. They'll do anything. So um. So, the thing is,
if you look at how at least I should say
Western society. I think I said society before, but Western
society really places a lot of value on extroverted behaviors,
being outgoing, being friendly, being sociable, being um a leader,
(37:57):
being unafraid, you know, Captain of Indo Street kind of stuff. Like,
look at our movie stars. We don't have introverted movie
stars typically. I don't agree with that. Actually, I think
there's a lot of introverted movie stars. Okay, but do
they behave introverted on screen? Well, no, that's my point.
I think that's all the act. And I think as
real personality goes, I think there are many introverted movie stars, right,
(38:20):
So if they just acted like their own introverted selves,
society wouldn't place any sort of value on that. It
would be movie starting, right exactly. They place an emphasis
on the extroverted behavior they're engaging in. You see what
I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the point. Like,
if you are in our society, if you act extroverted,
of course you're going to be happy. But I think
we're also missing all of the things that can make
(38:42):
an introverted person happy that apply as well. Yeah, and
you you can see this in the sort of early
mid two thousand's when like every office in the world
became this big, huge open warehouse space, which was again
for us for an office of introverts was just a
nightmare for so many people. But I think career advancement
(39:06):
in those situations. You know, the boss, he's like, you know,
so and so is always just bopping around generating ideas,
talking to people like they're going to get more attention
than someone who was like where did my cubicle go? Yeah,
which isn't fair, you know, to have done to everyone,
But that's I mean, that's that at Western emphasis on
(39:28):
on extroverted behavior. Same with like brainstorming sessions. That's the
opposite of what introverts want to do, and it's also
the opposite of of what research shows that an introverted
person um is going to thrive in. They're gonna not
gonna come up with their best ideas in that setting.
They're going to come up with their best ideas like
alone on a walk or something. Yeah, you know what
they should do. It's interesting. Like a really good boss
(39:51):
I think would gather the people for the meeting and say,
all right, so coming up next, we need to solve
this problem. We're gonna have a big brainstorming session for
anyone who wants to stay. But if you want to
go back to your office and really have some alone
time to think about this, then do that, like offer
up both alternatives. Yes, exactly. I think that's great. The
ambivert way up with the ambiverts. As far as the
(40:15):
idea of who is healthier, that's a big one too.
It's really easy to say that, like, well here, let's
just say this. What's happened with all of the information
that we found is there's been a lot of misinterpretation
of studies and data where the press will basically say, like,
(40:35):
if you're an introvert, you're more prone to anxiety. And
people that are more prone to anxiety or more prone
to have heart attacks, So introverts are more prone to
have heart attacks, right precisely. And what they're doing is
maybe they're talking about a study, but they're uh, they're
more often than not trying to put a scientific gloss
on just a popular myth. Right, Yeah, and that's it.
That happens a lot. There was another study that looked
(40:58):
at people who have like really negat of outlooks on
life and have heart disease and compared them to people
who are less negative and um have heart disease, and
looked at health outcomes and of course, the more negative
people had worse health outcomes, and of course the headline
was introverts experience more health problems. Studies suggests kind of thing,
and that introverts was nowhere in the study anywhere. They
(41:20):
didn't use it anywhere, but that got converted to introverts.
That is a huge problem at the very least it
is in public opinion. But the bigger problem is, like
we as the public, can be forgiven, does this kind
of just take that up. It's not our job. We're
just kind of interested in that kind of thing, and
we can be forgiven for making those mistakes. What shouldn't
(41:41):
be forgiven is when psychologists and other people working in
these fields do that same thing, make those mistakes, use
that shorthand and take this as anything more than just
a model that is a work in progress at best
right now right And also the notion that we've we've
got it all figured out when it comes to connecting
(42:02):
health with personality, um that that is like a lot
of hubris to suggest that. So there's still so much
more I think that's going to be uncovered when connecting
things like heart disease and depression and and stuff like that.
We just don't know. Yeah, we just don't know. And
that's a good thing to remember when it comes to
introversion and extroversion. Um. And there's people out there that say,
(42:25):
you know, I think a lot of this is just
basically bunk, if not all of it together. That their
their their premise is basically what we've been talking about,
that people are just too complex to put into a
set of categories. And yeah, the Big five Personality Traits
is probably the most complex and robust personality inventory that
(42:48):
we've come up with yet. But it's still five different
categories that you kind of that interact with one another.
And it seems really primitive when you step back and
look at that, when you consider just how complex not
just people are, but the experiences people have on a
moment to moment basis that influence our moods and our
decisions and our behavior too. Yeah, and there are people
(43:11):
who can solidly be like oh no, I'm well young
said that's not possible, you know what I mean, that
would consider themselves like I'm an introvert, Like trust me,
I'm an introvert, or someone who is clearly an extrovert.
There are those people that have maybe very very little
overlap with the other. Um, but with anything on a spectrum,
(43:33):
it's just I don't know, it's very personal. I think
it's super interesting to think about for yourself because I
think it helps you navigate the world if you kind
of think about it. But I also think you can
overthink that stuff. Yeah, some people say that what you
just described is actually harmful, that people will start to
act to type if they are like, well, I'm an introvert.
(43:55):
I guess I might as well not go to that
party and they miss meeting you know, a new friend,
or that you don't take on that project at work
that would open a new door for him. Like, some
people say this kind of stuff is harmful labeling people
like that rather than giving everybody like, hey, some people
are like this, there's this behavior, there's that behavior, and
just letting people be as they are. UM that that
(44:16):
that's a much better idea. Yeah, I think I agree
with that. Yeah. And then lastly, the other thing, Chuck
is okay, So let's say the Big five personality inventory.
It becomes just more and more robust, and it becomes
clear that yes, this thing is absolutely accurate and you
can use it to predict the behavior of anybody, like,
would we want to even have that in existence? Do
(44:38):
we want to know people like that? And like if
we did have something that was that accurate, like what
ends would it be used to? You know, it's just
a question to chew on, especially if you're an introvert. Yeah,
these are my favorite ones. I like the ones where
we can just dish, you know. Yeah, I love dishing
with you. Uh, let's see you got anything else? I
(45:00):
got nothing else. I don't have anything else either. And
since both of us said that, of course, it means
it's time for listener mayo. I'm going to call this
pronunciation support, not in the way that you might think. Hey, guys,
love the show writing to urge you to be less
hard on yourselves and less accepting of criticism from listeners
(45:21):
about so called language mistakes. For example, in the recent
Roe v Waite episode, Chuck at first pronounced substantive with
the accident on the second syllable and instead of substantive,
and it made such an impression on him that he
made fun of himself later in the episode. I tend
to do that. Uh, Yetsi is from Yetzi by the way, Well,
(45:41):
as it happens, both Oxford and Miriam Webster document Chuck's
pronunciation of the word as such, and Josh check out
what some dictionaries have come to say about contemporary versus contemporaneous.
Oh boy, I'm excited about this one. The truth is
that even dictionaries are nothing more than snapshots in time
of how language is used, and in perfect ones at that,
(46:03):
I might recommend doing an episode on linguistic descriptivism. Uh.
In short, language is basically a game in which the
object is communicate. It's pretty rare for you guys his
native English speakers to use English in a way that could,
by any meaningful metric, be considered a mistake. Maybe a
linguistic descriptivism episode would be would put to bed some
(46:23):
of the more pedantic criticisms you seem to get from listeners.
It's a great idea. Nah, who am I kidding that? Yeah,
so with many fondness, I'm sure if that's correct. Uh.
But when they got the point across exactly uh, and
that's from yet Sie Lindenbaum, my new favorite listener. And
(46:43):
then when I told yet See that I was reading this,
they're back and said, yes, yes, I'm going to be
the coolest member of my descriptive Ist Linguistics Club this week.
I love that that's a club man, Yets. He's great.
I'm gonna take Yetsi's advice and really unlow on the
next person who writes in to tell us where you've
mispronounced something. Yeah, tell him, sick him, that's right, tell
(47:06):
him sent you. Um. Well, if you want to be
like Yets and just be totally great, you can take
a shot at it in an email. Send it off
to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you
Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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