October 17, 2024 • 39 mins
If you're from the American South, then kudzu is something that cannot be avoided. But how did this invasive species get here and why does it love to consume everything in its path?
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck
and Jerry's here too, and we're just hanging out in
the South here on Stuff you Should Know. Yep, that's right.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
And today everybody, we're gonna be talking about something I've
wanted to do an episode on for a little while,
but I forgot about it.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
But now keeping a better list.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And this was farmed out to Dave Ruz who helped
us with this one about kudzoo, which if you're from
the United States, you probably know what it is. If
you're from the American South, you definitely know what it is.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
But if you don't.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It is a perennial vine that very much thrives in
the American South and it is known as the vine
that ate the South because it is an invasive plant
from Japan that has really, really, really thrived in the
American South.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's taken on monstrous proportions as far as legend
and rumor and just how people walking around the South
generally think about and talk about kudzuo. Yeah, it's become
kind of a part of Southern identity. Better for worse.
But yeah, we'll get into it because recent scholarship has
found scholarship on kudzu who'ld have thought has found like
(01:26):
we actually don't think kudzoo's nearly as prevalent as you
guys say. Yeah, and yeah, the South is just kind
of ignoring that stuff for now, Yeah, because it's ours. Yeah,
but originally, like you said, it was Japan's and China's
I think it was. Actually it's native to China, and
(01:46):
it's scientific name is phou Aria montana, which makes it
really confusing because it's not from Montana.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Neither is Hannah.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
No, turns out she's from Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
It is a part of the boy I always forget
and someone always tells us when it ends in ce
A E, what is it, say F A B A
C E A E family, which means it's a legome,
just like a pea or a soybean. They are all
nitrogen fixers, which we're going to get to in a
(02:21):
little bit. But it's it's a good thing that it's
a nitrogen fixer because it helps soil fertility and it's
the kind of thing that can grow in the peak
of summer when things are really hot and humid and
rainy and steamy. I can grow a foot a day,
is what you usually hear. And I think that's probably
confirmed or about you know, forty to sixty feet through
(02:42):
a growing season, and because southern winters are not so harsh,
they almost you know, if you're a mature kadsoo vine,
you're going to live through that winter and just keep
on growing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, and grow and grow and grow. And the way
that they grow, they have hairs on them like poison
ivy does, but it doesn't help them climb. Instead, the
very ends, the very tippy tops of the kudzu vine
is like long and thin tendrils, and it will wrap
those tendrils around anything it can possibly get its hands on.
(03:17):
It loves fences, It loves guy wires that hold up
telephone poles. Yeah, it loves tree limbs. Anything that it
can use to support itself, it will and it just
eventually overwhelms and takes over whatever it's attaching itself to,
whether it's a barn, whether it's some poor unfortunate tree
who's like, what did I do? It just spreads and
(03:41):
covers everything. And that's one of the reasons. The way
that it grows is one of the reasons why the
South is just like see kudzuo. It's everywhere. It just
takes over. It's gonna kill us all one day.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Yeah, can't even see that billboard anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Nope, which is a shame because if you can't see
a billboard, how is life forth living?
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I know?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
All right, So if you wonder, oh yeah, but what
about this nasty eroded soil that's just like barren.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Nothing can grow there. Cuds you can grow there.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
You're wondering that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, And the reason cuds you can grow there are
One of the reasons is not because it just climbs
so fast and grows so fast, but it has an
energy store via this humongous tap root. A mature kudzu
root can be like twelve feet long and weigh four
hundred pounds. And these things are underground. Just it's almost
(04:33):
like the engine like lying beneath this vine.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, or the gas tank even I guess sure, all right,
one of the two, maybe both, maybe a gas tank
engine in one.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, though in a catalytic converter in your business.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So one of the things about kudzou vines one of
the reasons they're so stable as far as once they
start growing they're hard to get rid of is because
every once while, I think every foot or so, when
the vine touches the ground, it sends out roots and
it establishes what are called root crowns, and that's where
(05:10):
it eventually grows from. Once the new root crown is established,
it starts sending out more vines and more and more
and more. And when you have all these root crowns
sending out vines, they become tangled. They get tangled. Matt, Yeah,
a thicket of kudzu vines that can be meters deep, essentially,
like you could get lost in one of these things.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah. Have you ever tried to get rid of kudzu
for any reason.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Not kudzu but other pernicious vines? Yes, yes, right, never
tried my hand at kutsu sounds hard.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, it's hard, but you know, I think any pernicious
vine is pretty tough.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
So sure you probably know what it tastes like, you know,
but not literally.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Although what a time to talk about that, because if
you want to go back to kudzu's roots in China,
literal roots did not even mean that it has been
a part of Chinese traditional Chinese medicine for a couple
of thousand years. They call it co or koshu, and
that root they make root tea out of it. And
(06:12):
in Japan they eat this stuff like not only has
it been used for medicine, but that root powder that
they can make is used in a lot of different
foods in Japan.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, it's a thickener. So if you've had mochi, it's
possible that they use kudzu powder kudzu starch to make
make it the thick little delicious treat it is, or
they'll use it to make noodles with. It's also used
in traditional Japanese and Chinese medicine. They'll use tea for
(06:43):
things like colds and digestion. And then also because there's
actual like health benefits or at least it contains flavonoids
that have been shown to have health benefits, they use
it for things like inflammation, cardiovas, vascular disease, osteoporosis to
protect against those things, not to cure them or anything.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, and while I mentioned that it's koshu and China,
it is kuzu in Japan.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
And you might have heard various stories.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
If you're in the South, you know there's It's not
like we're sitting around talking abou kudzu all the time.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
That's a bit of an outdated trope.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But at some point, if you, like literally were raised
in here and lived here your whole life, you might
have heard someone at some point say something about like
how cuds you got here? And I remember hearing a
story that it was brought over as part of a
like a World's fair or something, and it had to
have been this story from eighteen seventy six when it
was brought over from Japan on display at the Philadelphia
(07:43):
Centennial Exposition. But that is a bit of a false
rumor because they actually destroyed all of those plants, and
that's not when kudzu literally took root here.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
No, And then within a few decades the people who
were at that exposition and saw apparently fell in love
with it. Kudzu display was a huge hit, and so
within a couple decades you could order seeds kudzu seeds
to plant at your house. And now, yeah, and people
would plant it as an ornamental vine because it has
(08:16):
purple flowers. They smell it smells like grape candy and lavender.
It can be pretty I could see how old timey
turn of the century people were like, this is great.
But even then with people planning the stuff at their
houses across the South, that still wasn't when kudzu invaded,
because they were mostly growing it upright on trellises on porches,
(08:39):
and kudzu is easily controlled in that situation. It's when
it's on the ground as a groundcover that it spreads
like crazy and it is really hard to get rid of.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, for sure, when it really came in earnest was
in the nineteen thirties, and it was very much purposeful.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
This was the time when the.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I guess Oklahoma and Kansas and you know, other areas
nearby were being killed by the dust Bowl. In the
Deep South, we didn't have the dust Bowl, but we
had a pretty bad agricultural scene after decades and decades
of monoculture farming with corn basically tobacco and cotton. And
(09:19):
so we've talked about monocultures before and how that's not
the best way to take care of your land. And
eventually that soil is not going to be great. It's
going to erode, it is going to be depleted of nutrients,
and Kudzoo was looked at by the Soil Erosion Surface
Service Surface Service, which later became the Soil Conservation Service
(09:40):
as the answer in nineteen thirty three.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, because so, first of all, it grows vigorously. Everybody
knows that about kudzoo, and it doesn't matter how terrible
the soil is, it will grow in it. And then
as it's growing in it, you said that it's a
nitrogen fixing superstar, and it is nitrogen fixing plant. All
plants fix nitrogen. They bring sugars to their roots, they
(10:03):
feed microbes that eat the sugars, and then the microbes
convert nitrogen from the atmosphere into usable nitrogen that the
plants then take up. So all plants have that relationship
with microbes. It's just nitrogen fixing. Plants are such powerhouses
and have such thriving microbial communities that they put out
(10:24):
way more nitrogen into the soil than they use themselves.
So as they grow, they restore the soil with nutrients
that have been depleted. And that's what kudzu was initially
used for.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, so they're like, hey, this is great, it'll slow
your erosion. You're going to fix that soil so good,
it's gonna get fixed up. And they said, here's what
we're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
We're gonna create a government program because those always work
out great, and we're gonna encourage people to grow these things.
They had millions of kadzu seeds brought in and they
grew those into little seedling plants, and they paid farmers
in the South eight bucks an acre to plant kudzoo,
and by the mid nineteen forties there were about three
(11:07):
million acres of purposefully planted kud zoo growing on southern farms.
That's on the farms. You also had the Civilian Conservation Corps,
which was an FDR program with a new deal. When
we talked about it before, when they were like, hey,
if you're unemployed, come work for the Civilian Conservation Corps,
and you know, we'll put you to work doing things
(11:29):
like this, like hey, just go plant an anywhere along
the roadway where you see a washed out gully, or
if we're clearing out land for roadways and it's just
a barren, dirty mess, like plant this kudzoo and you'll
be doing America a favor.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Same with the railroads, Like, you don't want your the
bed that your railroad's built on to wash out. So
if you plant kudzu on every side, it'll keep it
from eroading. Plus it looks prettier than a bunch of gravel. Right,
So yeah, this stuff started getting planted everywhere. And in
addition to the government saying you guys want to plant this,
go ahead, we'll pay you. There were some evangelists. Evangelists
(12:09):
is like the best word to describe them. And one,
the guy who's probably most prominently cited as a kadzoo
evangelist is a guy named Channing Cope.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Yeah, maybe we should take a break and Cliff haanging
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'll hang it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Everyone who the heck is Channing Coke gotta know, I
gotta know, guys, you're gonna have to wait, all right,
we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.
I want to learn a thing or two from Joshuck.
It's stuff you should know, all.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Right, So, Chuck, you really messed with everyone's mind. I'm
going to fulfill their wishes and tell them that Channing
Cope was a farm editor for the Atlantic Constitution newspaper
farm editor.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
What's that?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
So it was a guy who would edit farms and
then the paper would take pictures of him editing the
farm and they would publish it. That was, from what
I understand, what the farm editor did back in newspaper times.
Oh okay, and this is the nineteen forties. And this
guy was a really from what I could tell, I
didn't do any deep research on him, but he seems
to have been a very, at least outwardly likable fellow.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeh.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
He had a huge jovial personality. He was super homespun.
He had a radio show in addition to his column,
Channing Cope's Almanac, and it was really popular. He would
just riff. He broadcasts live from his front porch and
it was unprepared and he would fill a half hour
an hour just talking about farm stuff and people loved it.
(13:59):
But in these in his column and on the radio show,
he would invariably talk about how amazing Kudzu was.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, he said that, and reform. We need some reform
in our government.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So he's doing this radio show, he's beaten the drum
for Kudzu, basically saying everything that we've been saying, which
is like, hey, it's going to rebuild your soil. Your
cattle can graze on it. You just rotate that cattle
around your fields and they're going to be so full
from kudzu and so happy, and that kudzu is going
to grow back so fast and they're going to have
(14:33):
so much more food and you're just going to be
sitting pretty basically. He actually started a Kudzu Club of America,
which had eventually twenty thousand members and said this is
the what's going to bring the South back basically is
kudzoo And about oh what less than twenty years later, oh,
(14:53):
actually about ten years later, Southern farmers were like, we're
in big trouble here because the cattle are eating this
stuff and if they eat too much of those leaves,
they're dying off because they're not matured yet.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
The vines are yeah, cattle, they're.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Not mature cattle. They can't handle it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And if they try to cut it back or something,
because it's you know, starting to invade other parts of
their farm and like bail it up, like hey, like
I don't think I don't know if we're getting through
what a twisted mess this stuff is like it'll wrap
itself around any machinery you have and just make a
fool of modern machinery.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah. Just I mean, if you aren't familiar, just look
up kudzoo and abandoned houses or something like that, and
it will. It will just immediately deliver the impression you
need on what it can do and how much it
can take over. And so you had a bunch of
farmers in the fifties who'd planted this stuff on purpose,
and stories are starting to come out like these guys
(15:54):
like their farms are just being overrun, Like not only
is it getting out of their fields, it's starting to
climb up their house, the farmhouse, their tractor. If they
leave it sitting for more than half an hour, it'll
get eaten up by the kudzu. Like this is when
the kudzu legend really started to take off. And again
it was it was based in a very real fact
(16:16):
that kudzu had gotten out of hand and everyone had
a problem. But it also was the rural Southerners who
were talking about this, so it was immediately spun into
yarns left and right.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Basically, Yeah, I mean, it would you know, if it
got into the forest it would the timber industry was affected,
so it was genuinely causing problems. And then starting in
nineteen fifty three, over the next about forty ish years,
the government just kind of one at a time started
saying things about kudzu, Like initially in fifty three the
(16:48):
USDA said, it's not an improved cover crop, and then
nine years later in sixty two, the Soil Conservation Service said,
you know what you can you don't even plant this
stuff unless it's in a really remote location. Nineteen seventy
comes along and they say, all right, we're gonna go
ahead and call a weed a weed, and this is
a weed. And then finally in ninety seven they said
(17:09):
that's not even good enough. It is on the Federal
noxious weed list.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, it joined the sorry likes of goats, roue, velvet, fingergrass,
giant fogweed, bidenhair, creeper, turkey berry, turkey berry, tropical soda apple.
That's just like three words strung together.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
That's actually delicious.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It sounds like it, but it's a noxious weed as
far as the USDA is concerned. With a little gin
and ice, though it does sound pretty good. Yeah, So
one of the big problems is not just that, like
farmers were having trouble with this, Eventually they figured this out,
they stopped planning it, they were able to kill it
off after you know, some years of difficulty, and then
(17:54):
it mainly got left to abandoned areas those railroad tracks
along the edges of highways, like the forests along the
edge of a highway. That's basically where kudzoo was left
to just kind of go crazy. And that's not really
great either, because during the last glacial maximum in North America,
(18:16):
the ice sheets came down and stopped just above Georgia,
just above Tennessee, just above the South, let's just call
it that, and a lot of animals migrated southward and
stopped where the ice sheets stopped and stayed after the
ice sheet retreated, And as a result, the South has
one of the most biodiverse ecosystems in North America, and
(18:42):
when you add something like an invasive plant species, it
affects all of that. So it actually is a big
deal that kudzoo is so pernicious and so fast spreading,
because it does affect that biodiversity and reduces it tremendously.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Well, yeah, and you were talking about it being a
nitrogen fixer, which is a good thing when you need
your nitrogen fixed. The problem is is there was so
much kudzoo, I think more acreage in the south than
even soybeans, so more than any other legume which are
the other nitrogen fixers. Is the point it can actually disrupt.
(19:19):
It can fix so much nitrogen that can disrupt the
normal nitrogen cycle because when excess nitrogen comes back into
the atmosphere, it comes back as two things, nitric oxide
and nitrogen dioxide, and these are pollutants. So if you
have an abundance of kudzuo, eventually you're going to have
an abundance of lung inflammation and asthma.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
It's just it's not good for the air.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So I looked into that and I could find articles
on one twenty ten study and they were all around
the same time and no follow up whatsoever. And the
most recent study I could find was from twenty twenty
three and it said essentially the opposite that Japanese kudzu
growing along roadways actually traps a lot of the car
(20:07):
emissions on that road in its dense vegetation and prevents
air pollution in some ways. So it's possible. Yeah, it's
possible the twenty ten study was right. It's possible that
twenty twenty three study was right. They're not mutually exclusive necessarily,
but yeah, I didn't see any follow up whatsoever on
that twenty ten study. And herein we have one of
(20:30):
the big problems with talking about kudzu. People just say
stuff about it and no one says, are you sure
about that? That doesn't sound quite right, or where'd you
get that fact from? You know, like it's it's just
that's how the South talks about kudzu because it's, in
some really strange way, very proud that it has this strange,
(20:55):
unique problem that nowhere else in the world has. So
I don't think South really wants to know that kudzuo's
not as big of a problem as it's man saying
all these decades, you know, yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Then we wouldn't be able to walk around and talk
about kudzu to people that could care less.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, and we wouldn't be able to wear those shirts
that are dyed green from kudzu very proudly outside of
the South at like family reunions, I may say, ask
me about my kudzuo dyed shirt.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Oh is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Not that part, but yes, the dyeing a shirt green
with kudzu to kind of show your Southern bona fides.
Never that was a thing. That's super nineties. They also
sold one that was a horrible color orange. It was
dyed with red Georgia clay. These are not things that
anybody should have been wearing, but it kind of goes
(21:45):
to show like these are the weird things that Southerners
take some sort of pride in.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, and when I was a kid, I remember seeing
the h and probably in some parts of Georgia they
still have these shirts and bumper stickers.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Lee surrendered, Robert E. Lee, Lee surrendered. I did not.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm it's so not surprised.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It never occurred to me as a kid. I was like, well,
what what are they saying? Like there are they still
fighting the Civil War? Like they didn't surrender.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I saw a check once from a guy this is
not a joke, and he wasn't. This wasn't ironic. His
address said for the state, the occupied state of Georgia.
This was in the twenty first century.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Who's it occupied by the Yankees?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yankees? Yeah, the Union, the Federal government. Ah boy, I'm
not kidding and now serious about it too.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So a couple of other problems with kudzuo is money.
Utility companies spend, literally, spend hundreds of millions of dollars
annually hundreds of millions of bucks trying to keep kudzu
from overtaking their utility systems. The Highway doesn't spend quite
as much, but they spend millions of bucks trying to
(22:58):
kill kudzu along the highway. And then there's the matter
of the kudzoo bug, which is a stink bug. It's Japanese,
first spotted here in two thousand and nine. They're good
in one way because they they eat the kudzoo and
they can kill a mature kudzoo stand in two or
three years sometimes, but they are invasive. They are stink bugs,
(23:20):
and they eat other things and they're stink bugs.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, And you can't really say stink bugs enough. They
are stinky, and that oil will stain your clothes. And
when it gets cold out, they like to go into
the warmth of your house and sometimes they'll just stay
even after it gets warm outside. Again, it's not something
you want. And they're fairly new they showed up. They
think one of them or some of them hitched a
(23:44):
flight or hitched a ride on some flight back in
the early two thousands. And they were first described in
two thousand and nine in the South. And at first
people are like, this is awesome, They're gonna get rid
of the kudzoo. And then somebody smelled one of them
and was like, oh no, still again something else.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, I see stink bugs around but our house, But
I don't think they're kuds you bugs.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
These look like an overfed tick in a lot of voice,
same color, same shape and size. Yeah, you could see
very easily mistaking it for a huge tick.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, totally a blood and gorge tick.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, those are the worst.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Should we take another break?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, let's all right.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
We'll take a break and we'll talk a little bit
about what Josh was talking about. Is kudzu overblown? Right
after this?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.
Want to learn a thing or two from Joshuck, It's
stuff you should know, all right.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
All right, if you have or not from the South
and you've like road trip to the South or something,
and you've heard of kudzoo and you're driving along the
interstate and you see the kudzoo that is just you know,
swallowed up a billboard or a telephone line or something.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, and you just think to yourself, the poor, poor South,
What did it ever do to anybody?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I know?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
But if you drive around, you might think, oh, my god,
that stuff really is everywhere. One of the reasons you're
seeing it a lot there is because it really thrives
along interstates and stuff, these like big, wide open areas
where they can get plenty of sun and stuff like that.
So it's not like because you're driving down the highway
and you see a ton of you know, something eating
up in exit sign that is just like that everywhere.
(25:48):
And like you said, there's a lot of sort of
hinky stats around how much kudzoo there actually is, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
For sure. I think in the nineties, very frequently cited
it'sistic was that kudzu covered seven million acres of the South.
That is an enormous amount of land. But I was
reading a Smithsonian article by a naturalist named Bill Finch,
and he said that it seems that those stats came
from a Garden Club guide, a kudzu craft book, and
(26:20):
a culinarian healing guide. Yeah, and we have it that like,
just like with everything else with kudzu, the academic community
cited that statistic without any incredulity at all, and that
it just spread like kudsu essentially.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah, I think more reasonable stats.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
The US Forest Service says that they they are about
two hundred and twenty seven thousand acres of kudzu in
the forest. That does not count roadsides and stuff, so
it's certainly a lot more. But I do think that
seven million was just one of those sort of errant
stats that was thrown out and then copy pasted.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah. I mean these things are being discussed among people
who are have like friends of their cousins friends have
done some amazing stuff over and over again.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So, like you said, one of the reasons why kudzu
seems to be taking over everything is just where it grows.
So I think, Chuck, that would be selection bias.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
So yeah, if you just it's where you are, But
if you were in the forest, you'd be like, oh,
this is this is fine. I mean, eventually the kudzu
would eat through a forest, I guess, because it's eating
the outside part and killing off the trees and then
it would need the next stand of trees to grow on.
But I don't see anywhere that that's a huge problem.
(27:43):
It seems that it's just not as big an issue
as anybody says that it's really not a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, apparently in Alabama there's way more. If you're talking
about invasive species, there's way more Chinese privet and uh oh,
have you had a problem with that?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Dude? Have you ever had a Chinese privet problem?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I definitely haven't, but I'm now looking it up to
see if I even recognize it.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
A lot of people just treat them like shrubs because
they're just so prevalent, and it's they're not exactly bad looking,
but if you don't want them there, they're a problem.
They're hard to get rid of, and they're sturdy. They
grow really thick.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Interesting. I like the white flowers.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, Like I said, some people are just like whatever,
I have this this like shrub that I didn't ask for.
But now I'm just gonna keep yah.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
H Japanese honeysuckle is the other one in Alabama at
least is like way way more.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
I think.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Honeysuckles three about three million acres Chinese privets about a
million acres in kudzu in Alabama is only about sixty
thousand acres in the forest.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, so in the United States, I think you said
two hundred and twenty seven thousand acres of forest land, right,
but that's just counting the forest land. Yeah, so we
don't really know how much kudzuo there is. But again
that now the most recent scholarship. People actually looking into
it or don't seem to be particularly worried about the
(29:07):
whole thing. But if you have kudzu in your yard,
there's actually some things that you can do to get
rid of it if you want to get rid of it,
and you probably do if it's anywhere near your yard,
because it'll eventually become a problem if it's not already.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, we have a kudzu issue at the Eastlake Garden
that Emily operates. There's a's sort of an island of
kudzu and it's almost like a swale, like a depression
where there's like trees and shrubs and stuff, and the
kadzu is only in there. And I think we have
both decided that trying to eradicate it from there is
(29:43):
like not even worth the time, but we're trying to
keep it there and not let it creep. So so far,
so good with that, kudzuo. But I have English ivy
that I purposely grew along one of my yard fences,
my privacy fence, and it looks great. It's like Wrigley
Field out there, and I'm so proud of it. But
(30:03):
it is stacking up so high on this fence. I
know that's not good for the fence because it's been
you know, I used to manage it a lot better
now it's been a couple of years.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
And it's also a mosquito haven, I think.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, and it locks in moisture in that you know
behind it, which is where the fence is. So if
it's a wood fence, it'll live bit yeah, rot it faster,
Yeah it can. Also it can also take over trees too.
English ivy can be a problem in the South as well.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
You cut those at the bottom of the tree and
watch them die.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah. So's there's an extra step that I've found. I
don't know the vines that I was dealing with, but
they are serious vines and they're hard to get rid of.
But I have found one of the methods of killing
kudzoo also works for say like ivy or these vines
that I'm working with, which is you cut the thing off,
like you find a thick like part of the kudzou
(30:56):
vine nice and mature, cut it off very close to
the ground, and then you paint it with the herbicide,
like using one of those cheap wooden disposable brushes.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And the herbicide I've found works really well is Crossbow.
It's a Southern egg product, and you just paint it on,
let it dry, paint on another coat, let it dry,
maybe do three times. It will it will work. It
will kill that that vine or that weed or whatever
it is you're trying to kill pretty quick and it's
(31:27):
not going to come back. I did last time I
painted on crossbow in the woods behind my yard. It
was probably two three years ago, and the stuff that
I killed is not grown back.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
Yeah, it does it.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I don't know if you can tell this or not.
I'm kind of proud of that one.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
You should be. You killed it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I killed it dead and then I ate its babies.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
By the way, if you want to, Emily started an
Instagram page for that garden that I've mentioned before. It
is East Underscore Lake Underscore Garden. You want to learn
a little bit more about the story of her cultivating
and sponsorship of this nice little piece of land right
here in the middle of town.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Very nice.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
But if you want to keep talking talking about killing
kadso you know, I'll get her to put a picture
of the kudzoo up.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
So oh yeah, you definitely should.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
But one thing you can do if it's on the ground,
if it's not growing up things yet, is you can
just mow the heck out of it. Because you know,
like the cow's eating those leaves could kill a not
quite mature vine. If you cut those leaves off, it's
eventually going to die. If it's like super super mature,
it's gonna be a lot harder. But you just got
to keep getting in there and keep mowing low and
(32:41):
just mowing it down and maybe it'll take a year
or two, but that will also take care of it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, for sure. You can also dig up the roots,
remember those root crowns that grow. Yeah, it's gonna be
a pain, but luckily you just need to dig up
the root crowns which are fairly shallow. You can leave
those giant four hundred pound tubers behind because they're an
energy store. They're not necessarily what it's growing from. So
if you get rid of the crowns, that tuber will
(33:08):
eventually die off too. And it's a pretty good way
from what I can tell. It's a very effective way
to get rid of your kudzu immediately is digging up
the root crowns if you are dedicated and digging them
all up.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah, or if you want to really go the next level,
dig up that route and use that thing you can.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I don't know why this bothers me, but I find
this really bothers them for some reason.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
That people would use this plant for good things.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And yeah, I guess so in the South in particular.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Oh do you I mean, is there any reason behind
it or.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Do you know? Like I said, I can't put my
finger on it. It's something about it bothers me. It's
I just don't understand why. But the idea of chefs
like employing kudzu and Southern you know, new Southern cuisine
thinking crafts out of kudzu. I don't know why, but
I just it bothers me. And it doesn't matter like
(34:07):
go ahead and do whatever you want. But me personally,
I'm gonna think about it and maybe one of these
days I'll figure it out. But it bothers me.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Okay, Well, I love it. I think it's great.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I think if that stuff is there, like sort of
with a foraging that's so popular these days, just going
out and using what's in the earth to put on
your plate. I think it's a great thing. And there
are Southern chefs getting into that. Like you mentioned, there's
a lot of you know, like you said, weird pride
around it. There have been poems written about kudzu by
very prominent poets. It's been you know, mentioned in countless.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Books and movies.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
It was if you're a we have to mention the
ram Murmur album cover.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
If you're a music.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Fan and you're from this South, you're probably super into
the fact that the Murmur album cover is one of
those train trestles completely eaten up by kudzoo. And the
fun little story about that is is that thing had
gotten so you know, sort of rotted out. I guess
after years and years of the kudzoo eating it. It
(35:13):
was try to be saved. A bunch of times. There
were efforts over the years. Finally in twenty twenty they
were like, and this is, you know, outside of Athens.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
They said, we're gonna have to take this thing down.
So they did.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
But cherry on top of this story or I guess
silver lining rather. It is now part of the Firefly Trail,
a very popular outdoor hiking and walking trail, and they
built a replica of the train trestle that you can
now walk over as a bridge that opened just last
year in twenty twenty three, So it's back again.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Great, but the Kudzuo's gone.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
Yeah, not covering Kutsy though.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
But people make you know their pilgrimage, the part insider
joke to look and get their picture taken or in
the South you'll get your picture made where that train
trestle is.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And then what was while you're there, you also want
to go to what was the soul food restaurant that
just said automatic for the people was like their slogan.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We were D's right behind there for a year, so good,
yeah go there, go to Weaver D's and then the
church steeple where Arim played their very first show. They
tore down the church, but they left that steeple is
now a historical monument.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yep if you open it up, you let out the
people too, right, that's true. I feel like we need
to close with a poem as we normally do close
stuff you should know episodes.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Hey, please read it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
This is a poem by James Dickey, who was a
poet but also a novelist. He wrote Deliverance right and
in nineteen sixty three this poem was published in the
New Yorker. It's called Kudzu. Japan invades far Eastern vines
run from the clay banks. They are supposed to keep
from eroding up telephone poles, which rear half out of leafage,
(36:57):
as though they would shriek like things smother by their
own green, mindless, unkillable ghosts. But in Georgia, the legend
says that you must close your windows that night. You
can keep it out of the house. Okay, dot dot dot.
Yeah it's a good poem and I read it like amazingly.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Yeah, maybe we should get Jerry dads some like, you know,
like a stand up base.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
And yeah like this when I finished. But yeah, okay, uh,
maybe Jerry will let's find.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Out or maybe that she can just sample me doing
that and just loop it.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
There you go. That's a great idea. That's an even
better idea. All right, Uh, well, we are done with
Kudzu right right. That means it's time for listener meal.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I'm gonna call this Brooklyn nine nine follow up. Hey guys,
I was listening to the Tom Slick episode and you
guys were talking about Andy Samberg and tangentially Adam Sandler,
and Josh said that he had never been or maybe
it was me, actually you said he had never been
in Brooklyn nine nine as far as I was aware. Actually,
he had a cameo in one episode that was quite funny,
and I've included a link to enjoy.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Which I'm gonna watch.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I also want to say thanks for the insane amount
of entertainment and education you guys have brought to the world.
Have been listening for a few years and love learning
while being entertained. And you guys have the perfect combination
for back and forth style. Always feels like normal conversation
with friends because it is random, unrelated information and asides included.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
And that is from Victor And I'm gonna check out
that clip.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
You can go on YouTube and probably just type in
Adam Sandler Brooklyn nine nine if you want to see
the clip.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Very nice. Thanks a lot, Victor, much appreciated. Thanks for
the link and for all the kind words. And if
you want to be like Victor and get in touch
with this, you can send us an email too. Send
it to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio up
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Mm hmm
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck
and Jerry's here too, and we're just hanging out in
the South here on Stuff you Should Know. Yep, that's right.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
And today everybody, we're gonna be talking about something I've
wanted to do an episode on for a little while,
but I forgot about it.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
But now keeping a better list.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And this was farmed out to Dave Ruz who helped
us with this one about kudzoo, which if you're from
the United States, you probably know what it is. If
you're from the American South, you definitely know what it is.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
But if you don't.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It is a perennial vine that very much thrives in
the American South and it is known as the vine
that ate the South because it is an invasive plant
from Japan that has really, really, really thrived in the
American South.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's taken on monstrous proportions as far as legend
and rumor and just how people walking around the South
generally think about and talk about kudzuo. Yeah, it's become
kind of a part of Southern identity. Better for worse.
But yeah, we'll get into it because recent scholarship has
found scholarship on kudzu who'ld have thought has found like
(01:26):
we actually don't think kudzoo's nearly as prevalent as you
guys say. Yeah, and yeah, the South is just kind
of ignoring that stuff for now, Yeah, because it's ours. Yeah,
but originally, like you said, it was Japan's and China's
I think it was. Actually it's native to China, and
(01:46):
it's scientific name is phou Aria montana, which makes it
really confusing because it's not from Montana.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Neither is Hannah.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
No, turns out she's from Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
It is a part of the boy I always forget
and someone always tells us when it ends in ce
A E, what is it, say F A B A
C E A E family, which means it's a legome,
just like a pea or a soybean. They are all
nitrogen fixers, which we're going to get to in a
(02:21):
little bit. But it's it's a good thing that it's
a nitrogen fixer because it helps soil fertility and it's
the kind of thing that can grow in the peak
of summer when things are really hot and humid and
rainy and steamy. I can grow a foot a day,
is what you usually hear. And I think that's probably
confirmed or about you know, forty to sixty feet through
(02:42):
a growing season, and because southern winters are not so harsh,
they almost you know, if you're a mature kadsoo vine,
you're going to live through that winter and just keep
on growing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, and grow and grow and grow. And the way
that they grow, they have hairs on them like poison
ivy does, but it doesn't help them climb. Instead, the
very ends, the very tippy tops of the kudzu vine
is like long and thin tendrils, and it will wrap
those tendrils around anything it can possibly get its hands on.
(03:17):
It loves fences, It loves guy wires that hold up
telephone poles. Yeah, it loves tree limbs. Anything that it
can use to support itself, it will and it just
eventually overwhelms and takes over whatever it's attaching itself to,
whether it's a barn, whether it's some poor unfortunate tree
who's like, what did I do? It just spreads and
(03:41):
covers everything. And that's one of the reasons. The way
that it grows is one of the reasons why the
South is just like see kudzuo. It's everywhere. It just
takes over. It's gonna kill us all one day.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Yeah, can't even see that billboard anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Nope, which is a shame because if you can't see
a billboard, how is life forth living?
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I know?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
All right, So if you wonder, oh yeah, but what
about this nasty eroded soil that's just like barren.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Nothing can grow there. Cuds you can grow there.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
You're wondering that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, And the reason cuds you can grow there are
One of the reasons is not because it just climbs
so fast and grows so fast, but it has an
energy store via this humongous tap root. A mature kudzu
root can be like twelve feet long and weigh four
hundred pounds. And these things are underground. Just it's almost
(04:33):
like the engine like lying beneath this vine.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, or the gas tank even I guess sure, all right,
one of the two, maybe both, maybe a gas tank
engine in one.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, though in a catalytic converter in your business.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So one of the things about kudzou vines one of
the reasons they're so stable as far as once they
start growing they're hard to get rid of is because
every once while, I think every foot or so, when
the vine touches the ground, it sends out roots and
it establishes what are called root crowns, and that's where
(05:10):
it eventually grows from. Once the new root crown is established,
it starts sending out more vines and more and more
and more. And when you have all these root crowns
sending out vines, they become tangled. They get tangled. Matt, Yeah,
a thicket of kudzu vines that can be meters deep, essentially,
like you could get lost in one of these things.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah. Have you ever tried to get rid of kudzu
for any reason.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Not kudzu but other pernicious vines? Yes, yes, right, never
tried my hand at kutsu sounds hard.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, it's hard, but you know, I think any pernicious
vine is pretty tough.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
So sure you probably know what it tastes like, you know,
but not literally.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Although what a time to talk about that, because if
you want to go back to kudzu's roots in China,
literal roots did not even mean that it has been
a part of Chinese traditional Chinese medicine for a couple
of thousand years. They call it co or koshu, and
that root they make root tea out of it. And
(06:12):
in Japan they eat this stuff like not only has
it been used for medicine, but that root powder that
they can make is used in a lot of different
foods in Japan.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, it's a thickener. So if you've had mochi, it's
possible that they use kudzu powder kudzu starch to make
make it the thick little delicious treat it is, or
they'll use it to make noodles with. It's also used
in traditional Japanese and Chinese medicine. They'll use tea for
(06:43):
things like colds and digestion. And then also because there's
actual like health benefits or at least it contains flavonoids
that have been shown to have health benefits, they use
it for things like inflammation, cardiovas, vascular disease, osteoporosis to
protect against those things, not to cure them or anything.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, and while I mentioned that it's koshu and China,
it is kuzu in Japan.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
And you might have heard various stories.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
If you're in the South, you know there's It's not
like we're sitting around talking abou kudzu all the time.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
That's a bit of an outdated trope.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But at some point, if you, like literally were raised
in here and lived here your whole life, you might
have heard someone at some point say something about like
how cuds you got here? And I remember hearing a
story that it was brought over as part of a
like a World's fair or something, and it had to
have been this story from eighteen seventy six when it
was brought over from Japan on display at the Philadelphia
(07:43):
Centennial Exposition. But that is a bit of a false
rumor because they actually destroyed all of those plants, and
that's not when kudzu literally took root here.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
No, And then within a few decades the people who
were at that exposition and saw apparently fell in love
with it. Kudzu display was a huge hit, and so
within a couple decades you could order seeds kudzu seeds
to plant at your house. And now, yeah, and people
would plant it as an ornamental vine because it has
(08:16):
purple flowers. They smell it smells like grape candy and lavender.
It can be pretty I could see how old timey
turn of the century people were like, this is great.
But even then with people planning the stuff at their
houses across the South, that still wasn't when kudzu invaded,
because they were mostly growing it upright on trellises on porches,
(08:39):
and kudzu is easily controlled in that situation. It's when
it's on the ground as a groundcover that it spreads
like crazy and it is really hard to get rid of.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, for sure, when it really came in earnest was
in the nineteen thirties, and it was very much purposeful.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
This was the time when the.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I guess Oklahoma and Kansas and you know, other areas
nearby were being killed by the dust Bowl. In the
Deep South, we didn't have the dust Bowl, but we
had a pretty bad agricultural scene after decades and decades
of monoculture farming with corn basically tobacco and cotton. And
(09:19):
so we've talked about monocultures before and how that's not
the best way to take care of your land. And
eventually that soil is not going to be great. It's
going to erode, it is going to be depleted of nutrients,
and Kudzoo was looked at by the Soil Erosion Surface
Service Surface Service, which later became the Soil Conservation Service
(09:40):
as the answer in nineteen thirty three.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, because so, first of all, it grows vigorously. Everybody
knows that about kudzoo, and it doesn't matter how terrible
the soil is, it will grow in it. And then
as it's growing in it, you said that it's a
nitrogen fixing superstar, and it is nitrogen fixing plant. All
plants fix nitrogen. They bring sugars to their roots, they
(10:03):
feed microbes that eat the sugars, and then the microbes
convert nitrogen from the atmosphere into usable nitrogen that the
plants then take up. So all plants have that relationship
with microbes. It's just nitrogen fixing. Plants are such powerhouses
and have such thriving microbial communities that they put out
(10:24):
way more nitrogen into the soil than they use themselves.
So as they grow, they restore the soil with nutrients
that have been depleted. And that's what kudzu was initially
used for.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, so they're like, hey, this is great, it'll slow
your erosion. You're going to fix that soil so good,
it's gonna get fixed up. And they said, here's what
we're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
We're gonna create a government program because those always work
out great, and we're gonna encourage people to grow these things.
They had millions of kadzu seeds brought in and they
grew those into little seedling plants, and they paid farmers
in the South eight bucks an acre to plant kudzoo,
and by the mid nineteen forties there were about three
(11:07):
million acres of purposefully planted kud zoo growing on southern farms.
That's on the farms. You also had the Civilian Conservation Corps,
which was an FDR program with a new deal. When
we talked about it before, when they were like, hey,
if you're unemployed, come work for the Civilian Conservation Corps,
and you know, we'll put you to work doing things
(11:29):
like this, like hey, just go plant an anywhere along
the roadway where you see a washed out gully, or
if we're clearing out land for roadways and it's just
a barren, dirty mess, like plant this kudzoo and you'll
be doing America a favor.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Same with the railroads, Like, you don't want your the
bed that your railroad's built on to wash out. So
if you plant kudzu on every side, it'll keep it
from eroading. Plus it looks prettier than a bunch of gravel. Right,
So yeah, this stuff started getting planted everywhere. And in
addition to the government saying you guys want to plant this,
go ahead, we'll pay you. There were some evangelists. Evangelists
(12:09):
is like the best word to describe them. And one,
the guy who's probably most prominently cited as a kadzoo
evangelist is a guy named Channing Cope.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Yeah, maybe we should take a break and Cliff haanging
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'll hang it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Everyone who the heck is Channing Coke gotta know, I
gotta know, guys, you're gonna have to wait, all right,
we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.
I want to learn a thing or two from Joshuck.
It's stuff you should know, all.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Right, So, Chuck, you really messed with everyone's mind. I'm
going to fulfill their wishes and tell them that Channing
Cope was a farm editor for the Atlantic Constitution newspaper
farm editor.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
What's that?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
So it was a guy who would edit farms and
then the paper would take pictures of him editing the
farm and they would publish it. That was, from what
I understand, what the farm editor did back in newspaper times.
Oh okay, and this is the nineteen forties. And this
guy was a really from what I could tell, I
didn't do any deep research on him, but he seems
to have been a very, at least outwardly likable fellow.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeh.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
He had a huge jovial personality. He was super homespun.
He had a radio show in addition to his column,
Channing Cope's Almanac, and it was really popular. He would
just riff. He broadcasts live from his front porch and
it was unprepared and he would fill a half hour
an hour just talking about farm stuff and people loved it.
(13:59):
But in these in his column and on the radio show,
he would invariably talk about how amazing Kudzu was.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, he said that, and reform. We need some reform
in our government.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So he's doing this radio show, he's beaten the drum
for Kudzu, basically saying everything that we've been saying, which
is like, hey, it's going to rebuild your soil. Your
cattle can graze on it. You just rotate that cattle
around your fields and they're going to be so full
from kudzu and so happy, and that kudzu is going
to grow back so fast and they're going to have
(14:33):
so much more food and you're just going to be
sitting pretty basically. He actually started a Kudzu Club of America,
which had eventually twenty thousand members and said this is
the what's going to bring the South back basically is
kudzoo And about oh what less than twenty years later, oh,
(14:53):
actually about ten years later, Southern farmers were like, we're
in big trouble here because the cattle are eating this
stuff and if they eat too much of those leaves,
they're dying off because they're not matured yet.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
The vines are yeah, cattle, they're.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Not mature cattle. They can't handle it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And if they try to cut it back or something,
because it's you know, starting to invade other parts of
their farm and like bail it up, like hey, like
I don't think I don't know if we're getting through
what a twisted mess this stuff is like it'll wrap
itself around any machinery you have and just make a
fool of modern machinery.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah. Just I mean, if you aren't familiar, just look
up kudzoo and abandoned houses or something like that, and
it will. It will just immediately deliver the impression you
need on what it can do and how much it
can take over. And so you had a bunch of
farmers in the fifties who'd planted this stuff on purpose,
and stories are starting to come out like these guys
(15:54):
like their farms are just being overrun, Like not only
is it getting out of their fields, it's starting to
climb up their house, the farmhouse, their tractor. If they
leave it sitting for more than half an hour, it'll
get eaten up by the kudzu. Like this is when
the kudzu legend really started to take off. And again
it was it was based in a very real fact
(16:16):
that kudzu had gotten out of hand and everyone had
a problem. But it also was the rural Southerners who
were talking about this, so it was immediately spun into
yarns left and right.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Basically, Yeah, I mean, it would you know, if it
got into the forest it would the timber industry was affected,
so it was genuinely causing problems. And then starting in
nineteen fifty three, over the next about forty ish years,
the government just kind of one at a time started
saying things about kudzu, Like initially in fifty three the
(16:48):
USDA said, it's not an improved cover crop, and then
nine years later in sixty two, the Soil Conservation Service said,
you know what you can you don't even plant this
stuff unless it's in a really remote location. Nineteen seventy
comes along and they say, all right, we're gonna go
ahead and call a weed a weed, and this is
a weed. And then finally in ninety seven they said
(17:09):
that's not even good enough. It is on the Federal
noxious weed list.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, it joined the sorry likes of goats, roue, velvet, fingergrass,
giant fogweed, bidenhair, creeper, turkey berry, turkey berry, tropical soda apple.
That's just like three words strung together.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
That's actually delicious.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It sounds like it, but it's a noxious weed as
far as the USDA is concerned. With a little gin
and ice, though it does sound pretty good. Yeah, So
one of the big problems is not just that, like
farmers were having trouble with this, Eventually they figured this out,
they stopped planning it, they were able to kill it
off after you know, some years of difficulty, and then
(17:54):
it mainly got left to abandoned areas those railroad tracks
along the edges of highways, like the forests along the
edge of a highway. That's basically where kudzoo was left
to just kind of go crazy. And that's not really
great either, because during the last glacial maximum in North America,
(18:16):
the ice sheets came down and stopped just above Georgia,
just above Tennessee, just above the South, let's just call
it that, and a lot of animals migrated southward and
stopped where the ice sheets stopped and stayed after the
ice sheet retreated, And as a result, the South has
one of the most biodiverse ecosystems in North America, and
(18:42):
when you add something like an invasive plant species, it
affects all of that. So it actually is a big
deal that kudzoo is so pernicious and so fast spreading,
because it does affect that biodiversity and reduces it tremendously.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Well, yeah, and you were talking about it being a
nitrogen fixer, which is a good thing when you need
your nitrogen fixed. The problem is is there was so
much kudzoo, I think more acreage in the south than
even soybeans, so more than any other legume which are
the other nitrogen fixers. Is the point it can actually disrupt.
(19:19):
It can fix so much nitrogen that can disrupt the
normal nitrogen cycle because when excess nitrogen comes back into
the atmosphere, it comes back as two things, nitric oxide
and nitrogen dioxide, and these are pollutants. So if you
have an abundance of kudzuo, eventually you're going to have
an abundance of lung inflammation and asthma.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
It's just it's not good for the air.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So I looked into that and I could find articles
on one twenty ten study and they were all around
the same time and no follow up whatsoever. And the
most recent study I could find was from twenty twenty
three and it said essentially the opposite that Japanese kudzu
growing along roadways actually traps a lot of the car
(20:07):
emissions on that road in its dense vegetation and prevents
air pollution in some ways. So it's possible. Yeah, it's
possible the twenty ten study was right. It's possible that
twenty twenty three study was right. They're not mutually exclusive necessarily,
but yeah, I didn't see any follow up whatsoever on
that twenty ten study. And herein we have one of
(20:30):
the big problems with talking about kudzu. People just say
stuff about it and no one says, are you sure
about that? That doesn't sound quite right, or where'd you
get that fact from? You know, like it's it's just
that's how the South talks about kudzu because it's, in
some really strange way, very proud that it has this strange,
(20:55):
unique problem that nowhere else in the world has. So
I don't think South really wants to know that kudzuo's
not as big of a problem as it's man saying
all these decades, you know, yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Then we wouldn't be able to walk around and talk
about kudzu to people that could care less.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, and we wouldn't be able to wear those shirts
that are dyed green from kudzu very proudly outside of
the South at like family reunions, I may say, ask
me about my kudzuo dyed shirt.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Oh is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Not that part, but yes, the dyeing a shirt green
with kudzu to kind of show your Southern bona fides.
Never that was a thing. That's super nineties. They also
sold one that was a horrible color orange. It was
dyed with red Georgia clay. These are not things that
anybody should have been wearing, but it kind of goes
(21:45):
to show like these are the weird things that Southerners
take some sort of pride in.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, and when I was a kid, I remember seeing
the h and probably in some parts of Georgia they
still have these shirts and bumper stickers.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Lee surrendered, Robert E. Lee, Lee surrendered. I did not.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm it's so not surprised.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It never occurred to me as a kid. I was like, well,
what what are they saying? Like there are they still
fighting the Civil War? Like they didn't surrender.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I saw a check once from a guy this is
not a joke, and he wasn't. This wasn't ironic. His
address said for the state, the occupied state of Georgia.
This was in the twenty first century.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Who's it occupied by the Yankees?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yankees? Yeah, the Union, the Federal government. Ah boy, I'm
not kidding and now serious about it too.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So a couple of other problems with kudzuo is money.
Utility companies spend, literally, spend hundreds of millions of dollars
annually hundreds of millions of bucks trying to keep kudzu
from overtaking their utility systems. The Highway doesn't spend quite
as much, but they spend millions of bucks trying to
(22:58):
kill kudzu along the highway. And then there's the matter
of the kudzoo bug, which is a stink bug. It's Japanese,
first spotted here in two thousand and nine. They're good
in one way because they they eat the kudzoo and
they can kill a mature kudzoo stand in two or
three years sometimes, but they are invasive. They are stink bugs,
(23:20):
and they eat other things and they're stink bugs.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, And you can't really say stink bugs enough. They
are stinky, and that oil will stain your clothes. And
when it gets cold out, they like to go into
the warmth of your house and sometimes they'll just stay
even after it gets warm outside. Again, it's not something
you want. And they're fairly new they showed up. They
think one of them or some of them hitched a
(23:44):
flight or hitched a ride on some flight back in
the early two thousands. And they were first described in
two thousand and nine in the South. And at first
people are like, this is awesome, They're gonna get rid
of the kudzoo. And then somebody smelled one of them
and was like, oh no, still again something else.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, I see stink bugs around but our house, But
I don't think they're kuds you bugs.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
These look like an overfed tick in a lot of voice,
same color, same shape and size. Yeah, you could see
very easily mistaking it for a huge tick.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, totally a blood and gorge tick.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, those are the worst.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Should we take another break?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, let's all right.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
We'll take a break and we'll talk a little bit
about what Josh was talking about. Is kudzu overblown? Right
after this?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.
Want to learn a thing or two from Joshuck, It's
stuff you should know, all right.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
All right, if you have or not from the South
and you've like road trip to the South or something,
and you've heard of kudzoo and you're driving along the
interstate and you see the kudzoo that is just you know,
swallowed up a billboard or a telephone line or something.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, and you just think to yourself, the poor, poor South,
What did it ever do to anybody?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I know?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
But if you drive around, you might think, oh, my god,
that stuff really is everywhere. One of the reasons you're
seeing it a lot there is because it really thrives
along interstates and stuff, these like big, wide open areas
where they can get plenty of sun and stuff like that.
So it's not like because you're driving down the highway
and you see a ton of you know, something eating
up in exit sign that is just like that everywhere.
(25:48):
And like you said, there's a lot of sort of
hinky stats around how much kudzoo there actually is, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
For sure. I think in the nineties, very frequently cited
it'sistic was that kudzu covered seven million acres of the South.
That is an enormous amount of land. But I was
reading a Smithsonian article by a naturalist named Bill Finch,
and he said that it seems that those stats came
from a Garden Club guide, a kudzu craft book, and
(26:20):
a culinarian healing guide. Yeah, and we have it that like,
just like with everything else with kudzu, the academic community
cited that statistic without any incredulity at all, and that
it just spread like kudsu essentially.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah, I think more reasonable stats.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
The US Forest Service says that they they are about
two hundred and twenty seven thousand acres of kudzu in
the forest. That does not count roadsides and stuff, so
it's certainly a lot more. But I do think that
seven million was just one of those sort of errant
stats that was thrown out and then copy pasted.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah. I mean these things are being discussed among people
who are have like friends of their cousins friends have
done some amazing stuff over and over again.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So, like you said, one of the reasons why kudzu
seems to be taking over everything is just where it grows.
So I think, Chuck, that would be selection bias.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
So yeah, if you just it's where you are, But
if you were in the forest, you'd be like, oh,
this is this is fine. I mean, eventually the kudzu
would eat through a forest, I guess, because it's eating
the outside part and killing off the trees and then
it would need the next stand of trees to grow on.
But I don't see anywhere that that's a huge problem.
(27:43):
It seems that it's just not as big an issue
as anybody says that it's really not a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, apparently in Alabama there's way more. If you're talking
about invasive species, there's way more Chinese privet and uh oh,
have you had a problem with that?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Dude? Have you ever had a Chinese privet problem?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I definitely haven't, but I'm now looking it up to
see if I even recognize it.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
A lot of people just treat them like shrubs because
they're just so prevalent, and it's they're not exactly bad looking,
but if you don't want them there, they're a problem.
They're hard to get rid of, and they're sturdy. They
grow really thick.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Interesting. I like the white flowers.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, Like I said, some people are just like whatever,
I have this this like shrub that I didn't ask for.
But now I'm just gonna keep yah.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
H Japanese honeysuckle is the other one in Alabama at
least is like way way more.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
I think.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Honeysuckles three about three million acres Chinese privets about a
million acres in kudzu in Alabama is only about sixty
thousand acres in the forest.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, so in the United States, I think you said
two hundred and twenty seven thousand acres of forest land, right,
but that's just counting the forest land. Yeah, so we
don't really know how much kudzuo there is. But again
that now the most recent scholarship. People actually looking into
it or don't seem to be particularly worried about the
(29:07):
whole thing. But if you have kudzu in your yard,
there's actually some things that you can do to get
rid of it if you want to get rid of it,
and you probably do if it's anywhere near your yard,
because it'll eventually become a problem if it's not already.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, we have a kudzu issue at the Eastlake Garden
that Emily operates. There's a's sort of an island of
kudzu and it's almost like a swale, like a depression
where there's like trees and shrubs and stuff, and the
kadzu is only in there. And I think we have
both decided that trying to eradicate it from there is
(29:43):
like not even worth the time, but we're trying to
keep it there and not let it creep. So so far,
so good with that, kudzuo. But I have English ivy
that I purposely grew along one of my yard fences,
my privacy fence, and it looks great. It's like Wrigley
Field out there, and I'm so proud of it. But
(30:03):
it is stacking up so high on this fence. I
know that's not good for the fence because it's been
you know, I used to manage it a lot better
now it's been a couple of years.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
And it's also a mosquito haven, I think.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, and it locks in moisture in that you know
behind it, which is where the fence is. So if
it's a wood fence, it'll live bit yeah, rot it faster,
Yeah it can. Also it can also take over trees too.
English ivy can be a problem in the South as well.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
You cut those at the bottom of the tree and
watch them die.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah. So's there's an extra step that I've found. I
don't know the vines that I was dealing with, but
they are serious vines and they're hard to get rid of.
But I have found one of the methods of killing
kudzoo also works for say like ivy or these vines
that I'm working with, which is you cut the thing off,
like you find a thick like part of the kudzou
(30:56):
vine nice and mature, cut it off very close to
the ground, and then you paint it with the herbicide,
like using one of those cheap wooden disposable brushes.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And the herbicide I've found works really well is Crossbow.
It's a Southern egg product, and you just paint it on,
let it dry, paint on another coat, let it dry,
maybe do three times. It will it will work. It
will kill that that vine or that weed or whatever
it is you're trying to kill pretty quick and it's
(31:27):
not going to come back. I did last time I
painted on crossbow in the woods behind my yard. It
was probably two three years ago, and the stuff that
I killed is not grown back.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
Yeah, it does it.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I don't know if you can tell this or not.
I'm kind of proud of that one.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
You should be. You killed it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I killed it dead and then I ate its babies.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
By the way, if you want to, Emily started an
Instagram page for that garden that I've mentioned before. It
is East Underscore Lake Underscore Garden. You want to learn
a little bit more about the story of her cultivating
and sponsorship of this nice little piece of land right
here in the middle of town.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Very nice.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
But if you want to keep talking talking about killing
kadso you know, I'll get her to put a picture
of the kudzoo up.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
So oh yeah, you definitely should.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
But one thing you can do if it's on the ground,
if it's not growing up things yet, is you can
just mow the heck out of it. Because you know,
like the cow's eating those leaves could kill a not
quite mature vine. If you cut those leaves off, it's
eventually going to die. If it's like super super mature,
it's gonna be a lot harder. But you just got
to keep getting in there and keep mowing low and
(32:41):
just mowing it down and maybe it'll take a year
or two, but that will also take care of it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, for sure. You can also dig up the roots,
remember those root crowns that grow. Yeah, it's gonna be
a pain, but luckily you just need to dig up
the root crowns which are fairly shallow. You can leave
those giant four hundred pound tubers behind because they're an
energy store. They're not necessarily what it's growing from. So
if you get rid of the crowns, that tuber will
(33:08):
eventually die off too. And it's a pretty good way
from what I can tell. It's a very effective way
to get rid of your kudzu immediately is digging up
the root crowns if you are dedicated and digging them
all up.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah, or if you want to really go the next level,
dig up that route and use that thing you can.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I don't know why this bothers me, but I find
this really bothers them for some reason.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
That people would use this plant for good things.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And yeah, I guess so in the South in particular.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Oh do you I mean, is there any reason behind
it or.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Do you know? Like I said, I can't put my
finger on it. It's something about it bothers me. It's
I just don't understand why. But the idea of chefs
like employing kudzu and Southern you know, new Southern cuisine
thinking crafts out of kudzu. I don't know why, but
I just it bothers me. And it doesn't matter like
(34:07):
go ahead and do whatever you want. But me personally,
I'm gonna think about it and maybe one of these
days I'll figure it out. But it bothers me.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Okay, Well, I love it. I think it's great.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I think if that stuff is there, like sort of
with a foraging that's so popular these days, just going
out and using what's in the earth to put on
your plate. I think it's a great thing. And there
are Southern chefs getting into that. Like you mentioned, there's
a lot of you know, like you said, weird pride
around it. There have been poems written about kudzu by
very prominent poets. It's been you know, mentioned in countless.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Books and movies.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
It was if you're a we have to mention the
ram Murmur album cover.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
If you're a music.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Fan and you're from this South, you're probably super into
the fact that the Murmur album cover is one of
those train trestles completely eaten up by kudzoo. And the
fun little story about that is is that thing had
gotten so you know, sort of rotted out. I guess
after years and years of the kudzoo eating it. It
(35:13):
was try to be saved. A bunch of times. There
were efforts over the years. Finally in twenty twenty they
were like, and this is, you know, outside of Athens.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
They said, we're gonna have to take this thing down.
So they did.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
But cherry on top of this story or I guess
silver lining rather. It is now part of the Firefly Trail,
a very popular outdoor hiking and walking trail, and they
built a replica of the train trestle that you can
now walk over as a bridge that opened just last
year in twenty twenty three, So it's back again.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Great, but the Kudzuo's gone.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
Yeah, not covering Kutsy though.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
But people make you know their pilgrimage, the part insider
joke to look and get their picture taken or in
the South you'll get your picture made where that train
trestle is.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And then what was while you're there, you also want
to go to what was the soul food restaurant that
just said automatic for the people was like their slogan.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We were D's right behind there for a year, so good,
yeah go there, go to Weaver D's and then the
church steeple where Arim played their very first show. They
tore down the church, but they left that steeple is
now a historical monument.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yep if you open it up, you let out the
people too, right, that's true. I feel like we need
to close with a poem as we normally do close
stuff you should know episodes.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Hey, please read it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
This is a poem by James Dickey, who was a
poet but also a novelist. He wrote Deliverance right and
in nineteen sixty three this poem was published in the
New Yorker. It's called Kudzu. Japan invades far Eastern vines
run from the clay banks. They are supposed to keep
from eroding up telephone poles, which rear half out of leafage,
(36:57):
as though they would shriek like things smother by their
own green, mindless, unkillable ghosts. But in Georgia, the legend
says that you must close your windows that night. You
can keep it out of the house. Okay, dot dot dot.
Yeah it's a good poem and I read it like amazingly.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Yeah, maybe we should get Jerry dads some like, you know,
like a stand up base.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
And yeah like this when I finished. But yeah, okay, uh,
maybe Jerry will let's find.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Out or maybe that she can just sample me doing
that and just loop it.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
There you go. That's a great idea. That's an even
better idea. All right, Uh, well, we are done with
Kudzu right right. That means it's time for listener meal.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I'm gonna call this Brooklyn nine nine follow up. Hey guys,
I was listening to the Tom Slick episode and you
guys were talking about Andy Samberg and tangentially Adam Sandler,
and Josh said that he had never been or maybe
it was me, actually you said he had never been
in Brooklyn nine nine as far as I was aware. Actually,
he had a cameo in one episode that was quite funny,
and I've included a link to enjoy.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Which I'm gonna watch.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I also want to say thanks for the insane amount
of entertainment and education you guys have brought to the world.
Have been listening for a few years and love learning
while being entertained. And you guys have the perfect combination
for back and forth style. Always feels like normal conversation
with friends because it is random, unrelated information and asides included.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
And that is from Victor And I'm gonna check out
that clip.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
You can go on YouTube and probably just type in
Adam Sandler Brooklyn nine nine if you want to see
the clip.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Very nice. Thanks a lot, Victor, much appreciated. Thanks for
the link and for all the kind words. And if
you want to be like Victor and get in touch
with this, you can send us an email too. Send
it to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio up
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Mm hmm
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