Nirvana: Not The Band

Hinduism and Buddhism are closely related in a number of ways, including their vision of what comes after we exit this mortal coil. Learn about the religions' interesting interpretation of the state of existence outside space-time.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Jerry's over there. So this
is stuff you should know. Here we are now. Thatcher
did lighten what mode? Yes, don't like that, said Josh.

(00:27):
But I did include a Nirvana reference in there when
I said here we are now. Oh, I did not
catch that. I noticed very nice, very little. I slid
that one in there. Yeah. Yeah, how you doing? Are
you feeling centered? Uh? No, I'm all whacka do Your
shockers are all over the place. My shackras are all

(00:49):
over the place, so much so that I couldn't think
of anything. So all I did was repeat you. Well,
you know, man, I have to say. While we were
researching this, I was like this some beautiful stuff. It's
very appealing. Yeah, actually it was. It's neat stuff, like
I I was. I became calm in researching this. Yeah,

(01:11):
that's a good thing. I think. Um this, you can
tie this in. We have a couple of related episodes,
and we might as well as call this the uh Enlightenment. Sweet?
How about that? I'd like that Karma from July and
Reincarnation from July and Burning Man, the angriest people in yours.

(01:35):
Uh yeah. And you know our our our buddy in
New York, Rachel Grundy, as a Buddhist. Yeah yeah, and
she's I talked to her about it so because I
was like, you know, GRUNDI I've meditated some and it
really appeals to me. And like a true Buddhist, She's like,
it's great, man, here, I'll send you some stuff, no press,
you know, let's see you some pamphlets. Yeah, that's basically

(01:56):
what she did. She wasn't like, you know, you should
look at this. You know, it's a little uh, let's
overbearing than other religions I found. I got you, you
know what I mean. Now, Rachel Grundy does the literary
pub crawl right if she still do that, I don't
know she still does that. She used to, But we
can plug her band Coyote Love. How about that? There
you go, And she just adopted the dogs of congratulations,

(02:17):
congratulations to everybody. Um, that's the Buddhist way. That is
so nirvana. I thought was the perfect way to cap
off Karma and Reincarnation. Yeah, as the third part, and
maybe we should do meditation. Maybe we should make it
a four parter. Yeah, that could probably be interesting. I'm
sure there's a lot of studies about the physiological effects

(02:37):
of it and all that. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, alright, alright,
that's an it's agreed upon. Then, and then the what
do you call it? The what suite? Uh? The Enlightenment sweet?
The Enlightenment sweet, not to be confused with the Transidentalists
or the Enlightenment episode man, which just doesn't factor into
this at all. No, Okay, So, Chuck, we're talking Nirvan Anna.

(03:00):
You have like a conception of it. I have a
conception of it. But in researching one of the things,
and I also knew that Buddhists and Hindus share a
lot of cosmology. I thought you're gonna say they hate
each other. No, I don't get that impression. No, of
course not, um, but they they are. Buddhism is a

(03:21):
an offshoot of Hinduism. Yeah, it's a spinoff. It's the aftermatch.
It is. It's the JOONI loves Chacci of religions. What else, maud?
What was that? An offshoot of Mary Tyler more, Mary
Tyler Moore? Right, it's the Jefferson's Yeah from march Archie
Bunker or absolutely, I could do this for at least

(03:44):
thirty straight minutes. Yeah, we should do an episode on
the spinoffs where we just say spinoff names and just
hold thumbs up or down, and but we don't say
people just guess what are we doing right now? It's
the Threes company spinoff of Hogans here us. That's good. Okay,
we're done, Yeah, we're done. Okay. I did not realize that,

(04:07):
I guess, is what I'm saying. I knew that they
were related, I didn't realize that it was like a
direct offshoot where basically the Buddha whose name whose original
name was Siddartha gaua Tama. Did you know that actually Saddarta? Okay,
so the h is silent gau tama. Nice. Yes, I
actually looked at pronunciations or listened to them for this

(04:30):
episode for once. I'm proud of you. I'm also a
little ashamed because you did that and I didn't. That
was all for Grundy. I was going. I was going
with the with the original status quo. It's just mangling
words of foreign origin. Well, I'm trying to mix things
up here, fifteen years in and scientific words to not
just foreign ones. So, uh, you were talking about Saddharta

(04:53):
gal Tama, right, he was born into as a Hindu
a Hindu family and decided like, yeah, I'm not too
hip on Hindoo. I think there's other ways to go.
And there's Buddhism. Uh yeah, that's the quick version. YadA YadA, YadA.
There's Buddhism. Yeah, this is fifth century b C. In
the age of course. And uh, like you said, he

(05:16):
would later become the Buddha, which is not to be
confused with Buddha. A Buddha exactly which you want to
be a Buddha, Go do it, Chuck, you can do it.
You couldn't be the Buddha because that's Saddharta's right, Yeah,
but you could be a Buddha. I could be a

(05:38):
layman's version, I believe, right, Okay, because like only monks
generally achieve the state of a Buddha. So in researching this,
if you wanted to, you could be like Sion or
a life I'm going to become a Buddhist monk and
conceivably achieve nirvana in this lifetime. You could be because

(06:00):
you're a human being. You're incarnated as a human being
into this moral coil, and if you wanted to, you
could go do it. But in researching this, yes, apparently
it's typically left to the Buddhist monks because they're the
ones who are like, who at the time sign our life? Yeah,
because you gotta drop out in a lot of ways,
not entirely. I mean, Buddhist monks like still filter amongst

(06:22):
the masses and all that. But um, for the most part,
they're focusing a lot more on achieving nirvana than the
average day to day person does, even like a day
to day Buddhist or something. Yeah, it's not. It's not
a part time job. You're not like, uh, sitting around
on Netflix, like should I watch Oranges in New Black?
Or should I meditate for eight hours? You know? Can
I do both? You can? By the way, that's called

(06:44):
zoning out. So, uh, let's talk a little bit more
about Siddharta's journey. Um, this is a five sixty three
BC and modern day Nepal or what would be modern
day Nepal. Does the way back machine go there? Yeah?
You want to go? All right? It sounds like a
lovely time. All right, here we are it's cold. It's lovely.

(07:10):
You know, it's funny. I didn't take it as cold.
I thought we would be going back to like maybe spring,
but yeah, it's really cold here right now. It's a
good thing. You're wearing the ox hide, you know, lined
with serpa. Uh so, see said Arta over there. And
he is a rich dude, and he is very sheltered dude.
And despite all these riches and uh, this lifestyle, he's

(07:34):
very pampered. He's kind of I can see it in
his eyes. He is dissatisfied. He is dissatisfied. He was
born into a ruling class, very powerful, like you said,
rich family, and he's part of the idol rich, but
he's part of the thinking idol rich. So he started
to question his place in life, which is basically what
you said. Right. Yeah, he starts to to mold this

(07:55):
over and like maybe there's more. Uh, it's a very
long story, and we could spend hours talking about this,
but I've seen a yeah, because like you can't do
it part time, like I said, um, but I'm looking
at him and basically I can tell that his disillusionment
has has reached its apex, and it is culminated by

(08:16):
him looking out in the window one day and he
sees three things from his little palace window. He sees
a decrepit old man, he sees a disease man, and
then he sees a corpse. And he's done, I guess so.
And he's like, you know what, I'm I'm done with
this life. Can't take it anymore. Even though I have

(08:38):
my arranged wife, my cousin whom I married, I was
forced to marry. I have a beautiful son whom I love.
I'm going to leave them. I'm gonna leave all my possessions,
and I'm going to go on a quest, a vision quest,
if you will, to understand the true nature of life.
And here I go right and back we are to

(09:01):
the present day. So you can hang your ox hide
And that Sherpa on the coat wreck. Well, well there's
more to this story. How do we have to go back? Yeah,
we gotta go back. I gotta go on, short pants,
put your put your pants back on. Uh so chuck.
Here we are back again, And um said Arta is

(09:24):
he's gone from a very rich, powerful family. He's decided
to go on this vision quest. He thinks, well, I mean,
if I was very dissatisfied, and I think it's kind
of wrong to be as grossly rich as I was
the family I was born into. I'll just go the
exact opposite route, and I'll become a hermit, a completely

(09:46):
poverty stricken hermit who has not even a pot to
pee in. Yeah, not even that, right. And he figures
out that as he's um starving to death, that it's
not leading to any kind of enlightenment. He's actually growing
increasingly uncomfortable. It's getting harder and harder for him to
pay attention to enlightenment because you say he's hungry and

(10:08):
hungrier um, And he realizes, wait a minute, maybe this
isn't the right way to go. Maybe polar extremes are
a little too extreme. Yeah, what if I die without
achieving my goal? That would just have been a waste
of life. Yeah, I would have been poverty stricken and great,
But that doesn't lead to enlightenment clearly. So here comes

(10:28):
a stranger who's offering me a meal. I'm gonna take it.
I'm gonna I'm gonna be poverty stricken no longer. And
maybe I don't need to be rich, but I also
don't need to be poverty stricken. I need to take
this middle road to enlightenment. So I'm gonna kill that stranger,
take all the food with a pigeonhammer. Oh wait, that's
not the middle road. That's far from the middle road.

(10:49):
That's kind of extreme as well. So he takes a
meal from a stranger. He figures out I think finally
that like, okay, this is the way to do it,
goes and sits under a tree. Um and achieved nirvana.
He achieved omniscience. Yeah, there were three stages of that.
He saw his past lives, all of them. He saw

(11:10):
the past lives of all others, and he's like, I'm
really starting to catch onto things here. Things are revealing themselves.
And finally he identified the fore noble truths, which we'll
talk about in a bit, but those were the three
stages under the tree. And in the end of it,
he said, you know, and I gained a perfect understanding
of the laws governing the cycle of birth and death.

(11:31):
Like it's it's nirvana. Boom, it's nirvana, and nirvana we
should probably say um. Once he achieved nirvana, he didn't
say it's nirvana. No, he couldn't say much. Actually, one
of the things that came across in research time and
time again is that he very famously couldn't put it

(11:51):
into words a description of what he experienced in this
new state of enlightenment that he was vibing in. It's
like Catulu kind of. It was the unnameable, you know. Yeah,
but everybody trusted him anyway. They said, this guy knows
where it's at. We're going to start following his teachings. Yeah.
In the In Sanskrit, nirvana means to extinguish, though in

(12:13):
this case they're talking about extinguishing suffering and hatred and ignorance.
No good. So we'll talk about the buddhas um Uh
path to enlightenment and his teachings that came out of
this achievement of nirvana right after this and we're back.

(12:52):
That's pretty funny put an ad in the middle of
a Buddhism lesson. Well, we take all comers here with
my friend. So if you achieve nirvana, what you're doing
is you are breaking that cycle. Um. If you listen
to our reincarnation podcast, the sam Sara is that cycle
of reincarnation that you can be uh caught in or

(13:14):
stuck in. I guess and this is where karma and
again we have a great episode on karma. Uh, karma
comes into play because what you're doing is you're rewarded
on your past actions um, in your current life and
earlier lives. Right, does that makes sense? No? It makes sense? Yeah?
Sure so? Uh And I love that this article says

(13:36):
it's important to note that the law of karma isn't
due to God's judgment over a person's behavior. Uh. And
it's closer to Newton's law of motion. That makes more sense. Right,
For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. Yeah.
So when like you, you know, step on a snail,
you're just like, man, didn't mean to do that. It's
gonna come back and bite me later on in another life.

(13:58):
And you build up this karma or whatever. But when
you uh reach nirvana, you stop accruing bad karma, that's right,
You transcend it. Yeah. And when you transcend it, then
all of a sudden, you can spend the rest of
your life working off that karmic debt that you have
already accrued. Because that doesn't just go away paying down

(14:19):
a credit card exactly. So. But it's like when you
achieved nirvana, the credit cards cut up, so you're not
adding to your your account any longer. But you still
have some money that you owe and you're paying that
off in this life or conceivably other lives following. But
at some point your your golden ticket has been granted.

(14:40):
You have achieved nirvana. That's right. And when that happens,
you are are you have escaped that some Sara, and
you have achieved party nirvana. And that is uh the
final stage that you find in the afterlife. Um. And
in the case of Suddharta, he was eight years old
when he passed, and he in a state of meditation,

(15:01):
basically saying to his people around him, it's all good man,
this is like, this is the goal. It was like
a great way to pass, you know, yeah, like we
should all pass that way. Sure, tell him everybody it's
all good. Yeah, pretty much like Waterson style. So he's

(15:22):
going alright, alright, those for his last words, if I'm
not mistaken. UM. So, when when one achieves nirvana, UM,
and you escape the cycle ofst I'm sara. You Eventually,
when you die and you work off your karmic debt
and you're no longer reincarnated, you become you basically travel

(15:43):
to another to mention another realm. It's just something different
that basically exists outside of space time, as modern Buddhists
would say. Um, and you are kind of one with
the universe. You just become a a selfless part of
the universe. That sounds beautiful to me. So pot of

(16:07):
Nirvana Day or just Nirvana Day is celebrated on February
fift in East Asia. Uh, celebrations very evidently. I looked
it up. Apparently some people just meditate, some people are
just reflective. A lot of times in monasteries of food
is prepared and shared. But that is a February fifty
Nirvana Day. So chuck. If you become a U, a

(16:32):
Buddhist monk, and you achieve nirvana. Um. And let's say
you're not a Buddhist monk, and you know, let's say
you are. Okay, so you're a Buddhist mon I keep
putting on these clothes and taking them off. You achieve nirvana. Um.
You become a Buddha right, not again, not the Buddha,

(16:53):
but a Buddha like your which means an enlightened one. Right. Um.
And if you say I have got some time and money,
and I'm going to hire you a Buddha to lead
me to nirvana. You're almost like a junior Buddha. Um,
there's a different word form. They're called our hots. Uh yeah,

(17:14):
our hit that's what I found. Yeah, okay, that's right.
That's when you have a Buddha guide to guide you. Uh.
And you are not You're enlightened. You're just not omniscient. Yeah,
not bad though, Yeah, big difference though not omniscient and omniscient.
There's a pretty big difference between those two things, you know. So, um,
when uh, the Buddha came back from his um and like,

(17:39):
well what what? Once he achieved his enlightened state, he
started trying to tell people like, you can be like
this too, and here's how you do it. He said
that there are it's very simple. There are just four
noble truths. It's all you need to know until you
realize that the fourth noble truth mentions an eight full
path and suddenly like it's exponentially more involved, but it's

(18:01):
still fairly simple stuff. Yeah. He taught this for the
last forty five years of his life. Number one is
that life is suffering, and I think that was he
was clued into that from his window that day. Yeah,
it was the suffering that really made him go, like, man,
this is life, that old guy, that dead body. If
this is life, who needs enemies? Oh? Good point. Uh.

(18:24):
Number two, suffering is caused by ignorance of the true
nature of the universe. So ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance
is no good no. And basically the true nature of
the universe is that, um, we are made unhappy by wanting,
by craving things, and that we can free ourselves from

(18:45):
those things by overcoming them. That's right. That's number three.
You can end that suffering. Uh. And then number four
is if you attach yourselves and follow the four I'm sorry,
the Noble eightfold Path, not the four, then you're all set.
You can overcome all that junk. It's like, just remember
these four things and then these extra eight things. So

(19:06):
the eight full Path and Noble eight full Path are
the ideals um that guide you along the way, and
they're broken down into three divisions. There's samas. The divisions
are samas. Oh no, the the the individual paths are
called samas. Well. The first two are under the division

(19:28):
of wisdom, right views, and right intention, and it's free
samas are are frequently translated into right here in the
Western English. Um, and it doesn't this article I read
by this one guy said, like, that doesn't mean that
the opposite of that is wrong. It's more right. It's
more like um, right in this sense means complete perfect hole. Yeah. Yeah,

(19:51):
so the opposite of that would be incomplete and perfect,
not whole. That makes sense rather than wrong, right, Yeah,
I get it. Yeah. The second division is ethical conduct,
and under there you have uh complete or right speech,
right action, and right livelihood. Right, So, working for Goldman

(20:13):
Sachs or clubbing baby Seals, you're gonna have trouble achieving
Nirvana at this in those positions, I would say so
probably not. You're probably not seeking nirvana either, right, you know, yeah,
uh so you're fine. What about podcasters? Podcasts are totally
in there. We're somewhere between clubbing baby Seals and Golden Sacks.

(20:34):
And then finally, concentration is the last division, and that
is right effort, right mindedness, and right contemplation. Yeah, and
the right mindedness is you know, being mindful, being aware.
Right effort is like you're directing your effort towards these
good things. You're not being slack in your path to enlightenment.
And then the last one, right contemplation, is um kind

(20:55):
of difficult to understand. It's very least, it's difficult to explain.
I found in rees reaching Um, but it's basically focusing
your entire self on this, on the Eightfold Path and
the four Noble Truths, and yeah, like you're you're really
directing all of your thoughts and energy into that. Yeah,
And that's what I got from Grundy when I talked

(21:16):
to her last time we were up there at the
Bell House. She was it's just very soothing. She's just like, man,
it's just it's just practice. You're like, it's a cycle.
You're just continually trying to do the right thing. And
that's like the simplest breakdown. But you know, if something
bad happens and you don't, you start over and you
try harder, which is like that sounds like really great

(21:39):
life principles, you know. So that's Buddhist thought. As far
as achieving nirvana, goes Um and Hinduism is actually very
closely related, but there are some major distinctions and we
will talk all about that right after this. Okay, Chuckers,

(22:13):
we're back Um. The Buddhists typically talk about nirvana as
nirvana in Hinduism is usually referred to as moksha, but
they're basically talking about the same thing. It's this the
highest plane of existence wherein you stop being reincarnated um,

(22:34):
you have worked off your karmic debt and you reunite
with the cosmos, with the universe. And in Hindu cosmology
they're talking about Krishna, which is the godhead, which is
the source of all things, and Krishna is very frequently
Krishna incarnates in three um major deities in all deities

(22:59):
and all Hindu all Hindu deities are extensions of Krishna.
But the big three are Brahma who's the creator, Vishnu
he's who's the sustainer, and um Shiva, who's the destroyer.
And when you die, when you achieve moksha, you go
and get absorbed into Krishna again. Yeah. And the big

(23:22):
difference that UM I think we found with between uh
Buddha nirvana and Hindu nirvana or Buddhist nirvana, is that
with Hindu you're working your way up through this cast system.
Eventually you start out by you have to be born
through every type of organism that exists on the planet.
You actually make it through under Hindu cosmology, eight million,

(23:45):
four hundred thousand different species of animals before you even
get to humanity. And then once you become a human,
you can go through countless lives in different casts over
and over again. But those casts are hierarchical, and you,
like you start, are working your way up. Yeah, that's
called the varna, and you get that good karma you
perform by performing duties in that cast, and then basically

(24:10):
once you have it's almost like a graduation in the
next life if you've done well to the next cast up. Yeah.
And there's actually there's a lot of debate right now
because um Gandhi was famously thrown out of his cast
the by Shaya. I believe it's the merchant class, and
um he was thrown out of it because he championed

(24:31):
for the rights of the lowest class, the sudra um,
who basically we're responsible for um handling, picking up dead
animals and taking care of the rest of the community's waste.
And basically we're just generally mistreated by the higher casts.
And so there's this question now in modern Hinduism like,
does the cast system still fit? Is it's still appropriate?

(24:55):
But the thing is is if it's not a reflect
shouldn't of say God's punishment? But something is physical, is
like the second law of thermodynamics or motion. Sorry, um,
that it's just a reaction to some other action you've
took in the past life. Who are humans to say

(25:15):
that the cast system is no longer appropriate. It's just
part of the universe. But then if it turns out
to human construct, well then it gets kind of ticklish,
right because it undermines this Hindu cosmology. So it's a
weird place that modern Hinduism is in right now talking
about whether or not to do away with the cast system. Interesting,
what do you think I think that's up to Hindu?

(25:38):
Good answer? Thanks? Uh So, I would imagine that Gandhi
then in his next life was definitely in that next
cast up. Huh. I would guess if he didn't just
achieve moksha right then and there, here's a pretty good guy,
you're Gandhi. Well, just you can skip a few levels. Yeah,
And that's the thing. Like, Um, the the highest classes,

(25:58):
the Brahmin class and Hinduism, and they're the priestly class.
They're like the Hindu or the Buddhist monks who go
off and try to achieve nirvana. Their station in life
is to achieve moksha. They've worked off their their um,
the karmic debt to a tremendous degree, and like their
focus in life is to get rid of the rest
of their karmic life. So they are not born again,

(26:19):
right right the one below that is Casha tria, and
that's the ruling warrior class. That's the one that Saddharta
was born into. Apparently when he was like this is wrong. Yeah,
we like anybody should be able to achieve enlightenment. Yeah,
and that was one of the main reasons that Buddhism
was born, right, was that he didn't he rejected that

(26:39):
cat system. The main reason, yes, um and so but
within this, like if you're a Kesha tria, like you're
you're working on your karmic debt because as far as
you're concerned, if you can work off enough of it,
you will be born the next life into the Brahmin
class and then you can work really hard and get
out of that and end up achieving enlightenment. So there

(27:00):
is like a hierarchical progression, And as you were saying,
one of the main things that you're tasked with as
a Hindu is dharma, which is responsibility to your cast,
right like acting like a member of your cast rather
than you know, acting out like Gandhi, I love it.
Do you got anything else? Yeah, there's actually four tenants,

(27:23):
just like the the eight what was it, the eight Noble,
the Noble eight full path right, um, the the there's
like four in Hinduism. One of them is dharma, responsibility
to basically your cast, society's rules, but more importantly like
Christiana's rules, and also like um being having a responsibility

(27:46):
and duty to your own calling in life and just
like living like that, um Arthur is pursuing wealth because
in Hinduism there's this idea it's like kind of like
in Buddhism where you don't need to be super rich,
but you all, I shouldn't be poor either. And one
of the things is, just like with Buddhism and Hinduism,
you're trying to escape earthly desires and wants. One way

(28:10):
to do that is to have the money to not
have to worry about where your food is going to
come from. Frees you up for a lot of time
to contemplate and get towards enlightenment. Right. That's Arthur Comma
is more fulfilling desires frequently, like sexual desires, that kind
of stuff. But there's all sorts of like taboo and
constraint and all that kind of stuff. It's not like

(28:32):
a free for all in Hinduism as far as sex goes, right.
And then lastly there's moksha. Once you have moved past
your earthly desires, you become free from delusion and realize
that there there is There is no earthly self. There's
just your connection to Krishna, and then you can be

(28:53):
come in lighted, which is also called correct. Yes, pretty
interesting stuff. Huh yeah, So that's Nirvana not the band,
not the band, man. I hope we pointed that out
at the beginning of this or else everybody's really confused
right now. Oh well, probably call it something like Nirvana

(29:14):
not the band. There you go. If you want to
know more about Nirvana not the band, you can type
that word into the search bar at Houston works dot com.
Since I said the search bar, it's time for a
listener mail. And if you want to know more about
Nirvana the band, watch the great documentary montage of Heck,
it's not called Nirvana the band Nope montage of Heck

(29:36):
very well done, is it? Oh? It's great pressing. Um
all right, I'm gonna call this our biggest fan in Uganda.
Hey guys, my name is Joshua Quisinberry. UM A huge
possibly the biggest fan of your show. Uh. And I
listened to every chance I get my wife's son and
I live in from Paula, Uganda, where we run an
NGO for children with severe special needs who have been abandoned.

(29:59):
Orphan or used on the Nazi sabotage episode to spoke
about the brilliant but poorly executed plan of the Germans
to infiltrate the US and called chaos. I wondered if
you guys knew that wasn't an original idea by Hitler,
but in fact, during World War One, Kaisville Helm number
two had an entire sabotage ring running out of New
York City that was responsible for numerous acts of terror,

(30:21):
including blowing up attempting to blow up railroads, bridges, canals
from the East Coast all the way to San Francisco
and Canada. Did not know that this is during the
neutral period, our neutral period of nineteen fourteen, one of
the largest and most devastating was blowing up a munitions
depot on New Jersey's Black Tom Island. Apparently the blast
was heard all the way in Philly and through shrapnel

(30:42):
that actually damaged the arm and torch of Lady Liberty herself.
What bring me, Kaiser Wilhelm uh uhid some of it?
I do just want to kick his body? What was that?
And I was figured that was you guys, will Is
that what I sound like to you? Yeah, you know,

(31:03):
like I'm drunking about a throw up. Some of the
other plots that were thankfully discovered, we're attaching and rudder
bombs on chips. Another interesting one was trying to buy
US passports from doc workers uh to smuggle more spies,
and it was found out and ushered in putting photos
on passports. I think I understand. I think so too,
so they couldn't be stolen and used anymore. Anyway. I

(31:25):
thought you guys would find it fascinating that the Germans
they were a little better at sabotage and would have
made a better film in World War One. Wow, And
that is Josh losing Mary. It's a lot, Josh. Thanks
for the work you're doing out there and nice. Yeah. Uh.
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(32:09):
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