SYSK Live: The Kellogg Brothers’ Wacky World of Health

There’s no way you haven’t had one of their breakfast cereals, but we bet you don’t know the story behind the two brothers who brought the world corn flakes. Buckle in for a lot of talk about poop, religion and masturbation, live from Sydney, Australia.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know from how Stuff Works
dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
There's Charles w Chuck Bryant. Jerry is not here, but
who cares because we are at the Beautiful and More
Theater And get this Sydney, Australia. Wow, Holy cal pretty good.

(00:37):
Not not a bad start. Beat that hell lot of purse.
Well we gotta cut that part down, Jerry cut No.
They were very appreciative because they said people don't come here.
They literally said that. Yeah. So to start this show,
usually with the live show, we like to go back
in time because we like to treat the audience to

(00:59):
a free right in the way back machine trying which
unfortunately doesn't exist. It's imaginary. Be quiet, come on, I
just need you all to use your imaginations. Okay, like
put on your thinking caps or your imagination cap, some
sort of cap that will help you get into the
way back machine. Maybe close your eyes like this, get

(01:21):
the Lotus post. I don't care, but we're all on
the way back machine. Now we're going to ironically go
to We're gonna go to America. We came to Australia
to bring you back to America in eighteen seventies six.
So that's where we are right now. The funny thing is,

(01:47):
we don't even rehearse the stuff, can you can you tell? Alright,
So it's eighteen seventy six in America where we come from.
We're just eleven years removed from the Civil War, the
American Civil War. Uh. Let's see, Thomas Edison had just
given us the oh, I'm sorry, Alexander Graham Bell had
given us a telephone. Thomas Sayssen was still just a

(02:08):
big loser, and he couldn't get the lightbulb to light up.
It would still be three years away from that. Jesse
James is robbing banks. This is old timey America basically, right.
And the whole reason we're in because we want to
point out just how terribly horribly people ate back then.
I mean they well you'll see. Let me give you

(02:30):
an example for breakfast. If you were sitting down for
a normal breakfast, Um, somebody would bring out a whole
live pig and butcher in front of you, salt it,
and make you eat the whole thing in one sitting.
That was just the first quarter too far out. Uh.
The potatoes would be um fried in the congealed fat
from last night's pig. Um, that actually sounds very nice.

(02:54):
They were, well, i'll give you this breakfast. Okay, hasn't
changed all that much. All right, there eggs, that kind
of thing. But um, this was what people ate every
single day. There was no breakfast on the go. It
was heavy breakfast every morning. Granted they were all farming
and stuff like that, but still it was pretty heavy breakfast.
Even if you lived actually out in the sticks, you

(03:16):
may eat a little healthier things like gruel and mush,
but number one, you're eating gruel and mush, which it's terrible.
And then secondly, it took you hours to prepare this
gruel and mush. So either you were eating really really
unhealthy or you were eating um food that took a
very long time to prepare. Yeah, so that's breakfast. Uh,

(03:36):
we don't even get into lunch, but it's probably more
the same. But I found a dinner listed online from
Delmonico's in New York City, And granted this is a
very fancy sort of celebratory dinner that was planned out
for a politician, but this is how that went down.
First course, a raw oysters, a choice of two soups
and order and a fish course. That's the first course.

(04:00):
There's a course in course. There's four courses in the
first course. The next course saddle of lamb, which I
don't even know what it is, but it makes me sad.
Filet of beef alright, not bad, followed by chicken wings
and peas and also lamb chops with beans and artichokes,

(04:21):
because you know you need some veggies in there. I
guess that makes a healthy What came next. What came
next was a casserole terrapin on casserole all of Maryland,
which is turtle you can and that's Australia. Saying that
I figured you guys would be like, yeah, we eat
turtle all the time. Uh So that's the next course.

(04:44):
Then you have a zorbet and you're like, okay, well
that's the end of the meal. No. No, that is
to cleanse the palate before the roast course comes out,
which was I'm not lying, which was canvas back duck
and quail. And then finally you get your dessert. Hey,
the creamed ice creams, whipped cream, jelly dishes, bananimous pastries,

(05:06):
petite fours liqueurs, and then a little fresh fruit at
the very end, because why not. And in between courses
they would smoke cigarettes to keep from puking everywhere, and
then they would finish the whole meal off with a
big fat cigar, and then they would die. So there
was actually a Walt Woodman. The poet Walt Woodman called

(05:27):
something called dyspepsia, which is um constipation diarrhea, and by
the way, settle in for a lot of poop talk
in this episode, constipation diarrhea somehow both at the same time, uh,
indigestion um just basically wanting to die because you ate
so much. That was called the Great American evil. This

(05:49):
pepsia was, or the Great American stomach ache. Because everybody
ate so terribly. Everyone just walked around going like, good
to meet you. How's the stockmar could tune today? It
was just like everyone felt terribly all the time. Yeah,
but it wasn't unusual. It's just how people ate. Everyone
just figured this is how you eat. You eat nine

(06:09):
courses of of meat a meal is that and you
feel like crap afterwards. So in the midst of all
this flatulence, in Michigan, a state in our country, there
were two brothers born who would go on to revolutionize
health and diet. Um going to do a lot of
weird stuff too. But there were decades and decades ahead
of their time in many many ways. And their names

(06:32):
were John Harvey and will Keith Kellogg. And for the
Kellogg brothers, that's awesome. And if you're thinking, did these
guys just fly across the world to talk about cereal?
We did. But it's also about poop and masturbation, believe

(06:55):
it or not, and in religion, and somehow all of
things is coalesced in this kind of strange story. And
oddly they coalesced around the Seventh day Adventist Church too. Yeah,
you guys have that here? Yeah? Are there any members here?
All right? Probably we're gonna make fun of it a
little bit. I just wanted to make sure that's good

(07:17):
natured ribbing tops goons level. So the brothers, the brothers Kellogg,
John Harvey and Will Um, they didn't like each other
very much, even though they spent all of their life together.
Practically Um John Harvey was the older one by eight years,
and he was abusive to his younger brother and just
about every way an older brother could be. As they

(07:38):
were growing up, and then once they became adults, John
Harvey hired Will so that he could abuse them further
into adulthood pretty much, and he did things like um like,
John Harvey would ride his bike, which is very unusual
at the time to ride a bike just for exercise,
but he would make Will jog alongside him and take dictation,

(07:58):
because that's what a jerk does. That's only half of it.
He would also uh, he was obsessed with his poop,
and he would go into use to to go number
two or I don't know what you call that here?
Is it number two? Okay? Oh? Really the the universal language,
so comforting number. He would go into take number two,

(08:20):
have a little brother come in and take notes about
his stools, and keep a log. Keep a log. I
don't even mean that, oh boy, keep a log log
a poop log. So they didn't get along. John Harvey
was a jerk, and he was not paid well later

(08:40):
on when they actually worked together, his little brother never
got a formal title. So it should come as no
surprise that later in life the two brothers would go
on to countersue one another time and time again and
basically not speak to each other. It's very sad, sad
and interesting. Yes, that should be the name of our show.
So the I like that. It's a good idea. Maybe

(09:04):
they'll be um. So John Harvey and Will Kellogg were
raised in a little town called Battle Creek, Michigan, and
Battle Creek, Michigan became the seat of the Seventh Day
Adventist Church, and Seventh Day Advantism grew out of something
called Millerism, which was a religious movement that was formed
around a guy named William Miller. Appropriately enough, and William

(09:27):
Miller had a knack for incorrectly predicting the second coming
of Christ, like he was really good not being accurate.
So he had some followers and he said, yea, brothers,
on October ancestors, sorry, on October eighteen forty four, God

(09:48):
will come back again. The world's going to end, and
it's gonna get real. It's goodies level. He didn't say
that though, and October twenty second, eighteen forty four, came
in it and um, nothing happened. And as followers went,
you get one more chance, one more Miller, what's it
going to be? And Miller said April eighteenth, and they said,

(10:12):
all right, we'll give you till then April eighteenth came
in win. They said, that's it. We're done. Millerism is done.
We're gonna name this April eighteenth, eighteen forty four, the
Great Disappointment with like the G and the D capitalized,
which I think they were trying to send William Miller
a message about so Millerism crumbles. However, Millerites would go

(10:34):
on to say, you know what I like kind of
the vibe of what we got going on, Miller's out,
why don't we just reform Under the leadership of the Whites,
Ellen White and her husband sort of gathered everyone together
and reformed as a as a new band to tour
the world called the Seventh Day Adventists. They got the
band back together they did in the eighteen sixties, but

(10:55):
without the lead singer I know which Actually I was
lead singer in a band like that once. No, No,
they broke up and reformed without me. Of what I
was saying, it's not worth cheering. Don't cheer for that
band I was. I was gonna ask if you were
going to clarify that, because you just had a little
bit of glory there for a second. I got a
cheer after all these years yeah, but look at you now,

(11:20):
that's right where those guys take that? Sarah's greatest fan.
That was the name of this stupid band. All right,
so what was it? I'm not okay, you can listen
to the episode. So Ellen White, what she did was
connected religion to personal health and a very kind of

(11:40):
well not weird, but it was. No one else was
quite doing what she was doing. No, no, she um
she said. So your body and your soul are intertwined.
So if you really take care of your body, you're
also taking care of your soul as well. And if
you do that, then uh, it will it will be
easier for you to get into heaven. It's one thing
we haven't told you about Seventh day Aventists. What they

(12:03):
believe is that there's a finite number of slots in heaven. Basically,
it's like a zero sum game getting in. If you
get in, somebody else didn't kind of thing. So so
getting into heaven is obviously very important. So you can
get into heaven more easily if you eat vegetarian, if
you avoid um vices like um making the saints cry,

(12:24):
I think is what you guys call it here, What
do they teach us in person whanking You want to
see clear of whanking? Yeah, I mean fried food, greasy food,
winking pickled foods, which is that's just crazy. Surely somebody

(12:46):
spoke up and was like, even olives. She's like, are
all lives even pickles? And they're like I think so,
And she's like, yea, even all of the no pickled food.
And they said, what does this have to do with God? Again?
Uh hates pickles, That's what I heard. Ladies. You should
not wear binding corsets, you should not wear wigs, you

(13:07):
should not wear tight dresses. Someone just went wo wigs
because that led to the physically destructive self vice of
masturbation and the less lonely and more fun vice of
excessive sexual intercourse, which is to say, any intercourse not
for procreation. And that's it. Like if you weren't making

(13:29):
a baby, then you just don't do it. So this
was the this was the town, This is the community
that the Kellogg brothers were raised in, and Um. From
a very early age, John Harvey kind of proved himself um,
kind of a sharp adventist. He caught the eye of
the whites, who hired him as a devil's apprentice. Which
was a printer's apprentice. I don't know why they called

(13:50):
it that um. And then in very short order he
ended up becoming the editor of the monthly magazine and
Battle Creek, Michigan, the Health Reformer, which on his editorship
came out strongly in favor of olives and repealing the
band on it. But he caught their eye, is what
I'm trying to say. And and the Whites had they

(14:12):
were actually followers of another guy named James Caleb Jackson.
I don't believe he was actually a Seventh Day Adventist.
He was into health himself. He was a health reformer
and he opened a spa or what you would call
like a health spa in New York in the eighteen fifties.
And Ellen White and her husband went and visited this
place and they were just struck. They were like, this

(14:33):
is it. This really dove tails in with like this
whole idea of like treating yourself really well. We should
open one of these in Bentle Creek. And they did,
They opened the Western Health Reform Institute, and it was
a total flop right out of the gate. Yeah, it was.
They didn't do it right. They served it's basically where
you would go to eat really creddy tasting food and

(14:54):
have quack doctors give lectures. And it was, like you said,
it was not popular. People would go and I get out,
but they wouldn't come back. But the important thing is
is they kind of stole that original idea from James
Kalb Jackson, because he's going to come around later again. So, uh,
this is where John Harvey. They were like, the writings
on the wall, we need if we want this thing

(15:15):
to succeed. I think we need like a real doctor
to actually run this thing. And so young John Harvey
was there, the riding was on the wall. They saw
how bright he was and he was going places. He
was interested in medicine and health. So they paid for
him as his parents, is it okay if we send
your son to medical medical school, your oldest son, And
they said, yeah, just don't send Will, poor Will Will.

(15:40):
It was kind of a jerk too, but John Harvey
went to medical school for real, became a real doctor,
and returned to Battle Creek, Michigan in eighteen seventy six
and was appointed director of what would become the Battle
Creek Sanitarium. They changed their name and They chose sanitarium
because at the time, Santa tori ums were places where

(16:02):
you went like to die when you had tuberculosis. And
they're like, well, we really want to distance ourselves from that.
We're going to change the O to an A and
I think that will really get our point, like scratching
that out, writing it and being like, yeah, you think
as you will. See. John Harvey Kellogg was not the
best businessman ever um. Nor was he the best doctor ever.

(16:23):
Really no, but it was important to him that. I mean,
he said, I'll come back and I'll run your your
your joint here. But aside from the religious principles, which
I'm down with, it needs to be a medical institution.
I want the science to be good and that's kind
of one of my requirements. And then he went on
to um not follow good science for a lot of

(16:44):
his career. Yeah. He also said, my younger brother Will
has to come on for my own personal reasons, and
Will came on as the head of HR very quickly
instituted all of Fridays at the sanitary. I love that
olives bit it doesn't do very well. However, this is

(17:05):
when things started to flourish. They really did it, right,
This place was super lux very nice. They figured, hey,
let's give him better food and make people want to
come here and have marble floors and banana trees and
the lobby and palm trees and just it would be
today what you would think of as like a super

(17:26):
deluxe kind of health resort spa. Right. Yeah, And like
like you said, it flourished. They went from like this
house basically to a four story structure in just a
few years, and then um, a few years after that,
they built it into like a fifteen story, huge, enormous structure.
And at this time in the US, if you had

(17:47):
like a ten story building in a major city that
was the pride of your city. They built a fifteen
story huge complex into a health spa UM in in
Battle Creek, Michigan, which would be like building the same
thing in Gunda Windy or something like that. Right, is

(18:11):
that a good example? All right? We do our research
here is anyone from Gunda Wendy. Yeah, Gondo Windy, Sorry,
I knew he's pronounced uh so in order, And it's
kind of like it would be today if you wanted
people to really take a note. It really helps of

(18:31):
celebrities pay attention to it, and they did. People like
Amelia Earhart went there, President William Howard Taft, Thomas Edison
went there. I guess he was still working on the
light bulb. But maybe he did that. Maybe he did
that there. Who knows. Uh. Johnny Weissmuller, who played Tarzan
in the movies, he had a knack for going into
the dining room and doing his Tarzan call is sort

(18:53):
of like ringing the dinner bell. I guess. And it
was a big deal. Like people took note. But Middle
America they still weren't on board. They called them battle freaks.
They thought it was completely weird because you know, this
was the eighteen seventies. After all. It was not the
time to talk about soy milk and vegetarians. It was
a time to eat a saddle of lamb while you're

(19:14):
writing a cow that you were then going to eat
after you ate the lamb. Yeah, that was what was done,
and wash it down with some turtle. So when you
went there. But I got no problems with turtle. You
would eat turtle, Uh, don't judge me. Um, would you
eat penguin? No? Someone just gasped, gasping, yes, No, nobody.

(19:41):
I wouldn't eat kangaroo once you've laid with the kangaroo,
tough to tough to imagine eating it. And I found
that out either in either sense of the word. I
think you couldn't eat the kangaroo after that, all right,
I'm already lost. Well and I got us all right.

(20:01):
So the sand they called it the Sand. The sanitarium, Uh,
like you said, it was huge. There were more than
a thousand employees there. They had physicians and nurses, masseuses,
baker's bell hops, waiters, orderlies, attendants. It was like a
really super deluxe place where you would be examined. I
believe every patient for a while at least was treated
personally by Dr John Harvey Kellogg. Yeah, each each person

(20:24):
who came through, and we're talking tens of thousands of
people a year, um was seen by John Harvey Kellogg
and he would give them each like a personalized regimen
to follow. And a lot of this stuff was like
real common sense things that what we think of his
common sense now, like go get some exercise, Um, a bike.
Would would it kill you to get on a bike?

(20:46):
Fresh air, sunshine, um. That was one of the first
lectures would it kill you to get on a biker? Right?
Ten a m in the East Lobby. Quit quit smoking, um,
stopped drinking, cut out the caffeine, which is madness. Um.
Just just common sense stuff that we think of his
health that really kind of originated out of this area. Yeah,

(21:08):
out of this era, yeah and area. So things are
going pretty well. Common sense treatments and also really crazy
crazy gizmos and contraptions. You can look these up online
when you get home. Do you have Google here? But
we call it googly goot. You totally do love your

(21:36):
accents so much. Really, and you know what I even did.
I changed my maps voice to a female Australian to
drive me around Wine Country and it really was just
a cherry on top. It's very lovely. I'm gonna go
home and least me like, who's that? What happened down there?

(21:58):
Get rid of her? But on the robot voice, that's Sheila.
Good one. Thanks. Josh is in rare form to night everybody,
look out, look out Sydney all right. Uh. One was
called the kneating machine, like as in bread kneading, and

(22:20):
they would treat you like a loaf of bread dough.
You would lay down, and I had these mallets that
would grind into your body, and people would turned cranks
and things, and it was all in an effort to
get you to poop. That was everything. So we we've
got to tell you a little something about John Harvey
Kellogg and his medical views. He subscribed strongly to this

(22:43):
idea and now discredited theory called auto intoxication, and auto
intoxication says that sure you poop. We all poop, Like
the book says, everybody poops, but none of us are
really good at pooping. We don't poop quite enough, and
a little bit gets behind each time, and as it
builds up, that left behind poop poisons the rest of

(23:05):
your body. And this results in things like diabetes or
high blood pressure or stroke or like getting hit by
a bus. Whatever. It all comes back to the poop
you're not getting out. So everything walking in the sunshine,
riding a bike, would it kill you? UM, quitting smoking, UM,
the needing machine, and all the other machines that he

(23:26):
came up with. All of it was to get that
extra little poop out of you and get the toxins
associated from that. You better. You used to be saying
poop and getting the toxins associated with that poop out
of your body. That's right. Uh. He also invented something
called the electric light bath cabinet, which sounds like an

(23:47):
Elton John album, but it's not. It was basically an
early version of the tanning bed. If you look this
thing up, it's a huge box that you would sit
in that kind of came up to your neck and
had a nice little seat. Inside was lined with mirrors
and the light bulb, remember, had just been invented, so
they had no idea about wattage and there was just

(24:07):
light bulbs everywhere that would I think the quote is
that would boil the toxins, I'm sorry, boil the poisons
out of the pores of the body. And he believed
in light, uh not only sunlight, which does make sense,
but light bulbs curing you. So he would fire up
light bulbs all over the place and said, it'll cure gout,
It'll cure typhoid, scarlet, fever, diabetes, OBCD, scurvy, gets strit

(24:29):
us in constipation, because why not light bulbs some of
these things that like, this guy must have made a
mint on these machines because you could find them outside
of the sanitarium too. There's actually a couple that were
on the first class Gymnasium on the Titanic, which means
some of John Harvey Kellogg's weirdo contraptions are at the

(24:50):
bottom of the sea and the Titanic with some skeleton
on the needing machine, like police, can I just ride
a bike? It's like your chance for riding a bike
is long from what else did he had? He had
the electric bed, which sounds like a lot of fun
to be, the foot foot vibrator, which also sounds lovely.
And then our favorite machine, our favorite machine, the colonic machine.

(25:16):
You guys are familiar with colonics. Has anyone ever had
a colonic? Just left just like that? Yeah? Good one. Uh.
I've actually had a couple of calonics before I have,
and they're like, it's it's hit or miss. I can

(25:39):
tell you. Sometimes you get off of the clonic machine,
you feel like a million bucks. Other times you're like,
you know what it means to feel gray? Miss? Yeah,
when it's when it's a miss, it's a bad mess.
It's not fun. Yeah. So, and I don't think we
mentioned this whole four bottel movements a day thing that
he had he went to Africa on a safari. This

(25:59):
is the level of science this guy was operating at.
He went to African safari and saw guerrillas whooping four
times a day, and he literally said, well, they seem
happy we came from them. I don't. Actually, he probably
didn't believe that at all, but we all know now
that we did. And he said, so that's what we

(26:20):
should all shoot for as humans, is for a day.
And if you need a little help and the kneeding
machine isn't doing it, and the light isn't boiling it
out of you, then just have a seat on the
calonic machine and hook yourself up to the spigot. Yes,
turn on the water and see what happens. Water moves

(26:41):
things along great. Uh. If not. It was followed by
a yogurt treatment. You would eat half of the yogurt
and the other half. Seriously, he would shoot yogurt up
people's butts. I never did that. I have I have

(27:05):
principles and rules. Draw lines places daw. I drew a
line right through the yogurt. He had a little the
little fruit on the side though that let's call the
parfet machine, right so uh. He actually had a couple
of patents for this thing, for the clonic machine. The
first one, I don't know what that said, but we

(27:27):
looked up the improved patent because we were like, sure,
why not see what he got wrong? Uh? He said
for the improved version he wanted an irrigating apparatus particularly
adaptable for colonic irrigating, sure, but also susceptible for other
irrigation treatments. So I guess after the people got on
he was like, well, we could water the lawn while

(27:47):
we're at it. There's a fire in the kitchen. It's
just going to waste. You're in You're in the movie tonight,
Did I get you? I didn't realize it was such
a classy city. And and also the the improved patent

(28:09):
called for one where you could actually measure the amount
of liquid entering and exiting the body, So before that
it was just a wild ride. And one of them,
one of these colonic machines, had multiple spigots on it,
which meant you could fit more than one person on
it a time. And I gotta tell you, having done
calonics before, you do not want anyone anywhere near you

(28:30):
are in the same room. Even you do not want
to look over while you're getting a chlonic at somebody
else getting a chlonic because you don't want to connect
with another human being like that. Yeah. No, so it
must have been some Melton John. It sounds like fun.
So um. I don't know about you guys, but uh,

(28:54):
I think this is going pretty well so far, so good, okay,
good good good. Well, then we have bad news because
that means we have to take a message break, but
we also have good news because we're not reading an ad.
We have something very special. Yep. We have a fellow,
a local guy named Alex Sfton who you might recognize

(29:15):
in a second, who's going to come on out and
help us and we will be right back right after
these messages my out in podcast land. It's time for
your fabe shorty. Stop we the chalk shoe chals stop

(29:48):
you sh no, thank you Alex? Yes, wow, oh man,
that does not happen everywhere everybody. Uh and we're back.

(30:23):
Yeah man, that was amazing. He was one of the
one of the early jingle writers that sent one in.
He was number seven and he wrote us and said, uh,
I live in Sydney and how about if I come
up on stage and do that in front of people,
and we said, that's a great idea, one of the greatest, wonderful. Wow,

(30:52):
I really classed this show up, like eight chokes, poop
and wanking everyone. Let's get back to it. So, so
one of the things about John Harvey Kellogg is, yes
he had some weird contraptions, and yes he um he
did weird stuff with yogurt, but there was some things
where he was actually pretty ahead of his time. Like

(31:14):
we said, what we think of as health like was
cutting edge and was brought to America and the world
by guys like this, and in particular mostly by John
Harvey Kellogg. Um. One of his earliest books was called
Tobacco is Um, and in it he writes about how
tobacco is really bad for you. And this is at
a time when people didn't think that way. No doctors

(31:37):
would literally smoke while they treated right, They'd be like,
I have good news, you're pregnant, so I'm gonna need
you to move to camel lights during yeah, during the term.
Let me look at your chart, right, you have lung cancer.
I don't know what to say. I do too, everyone
does the sittle of lamp. It was a crazy time
when people just thought it was normal to do that.

(31:59):
But he was the anti tobacco train way way early.
He was one of the first doctors, especially in the
United States, two champion probiotics, and obviously with the yogurt
acidophilus um eating the yogurt that is, and gut flora,
and people just didn't know about this stuff. People doctors
at the time tried to treat disease, not prevent disease.

(32:21):
It was just accepted that. They didn't call it healthy eating.
They just called it eating and dying. That was the progression.
You get to your fifties, maybe your sixties, and you
get diabetes or heart disease or stroke and you just
keel over dead. And John Harvey really, to his credit,
was like, wait a minute, I think if we take
care of our bodies, you could live longer. And they

(32:45):
said who are you, which confroned him. He also he
was actually so when you went to the Battle Creek Sanitarium,
one of the things they had was food, and he
actually came up with a substantial amount of food. He's
one of three people listed as an inventor of peanut butter,
which I mean you can like die with that one

(33:05):
and be pretty happy. Um. He invented a lot of
nut based meat substitutes, which today it's like, how many
can you find to those at the grocery store? A
lot like to furky, it's not nut based, but you
get what I'm saying. Um, what else did he come up? Oh,
I've got one. Remember how you weren't supposed to eat
or drink caffeine. He had a coffee substitute that was

(33:28):
made from toasted grains and molasses with no caffeine. So
you wouldn't drink it. You would throw it in somebody's
face when they served it to you. But that's what
you would get for coffee in the mornings at the
sand So you're having a great show, thank you, So

(33:48):
are you? Guys? All right? This next section we're gonna
call sexy time. Oh no, it's really bad and awful.
It's actually the antithesis of yeah. And this this next
part is tough, everyone, but we all got to get
through it together. Hold hands with your neighbor if you want.
This is tough. But here goes again. Not for whanking

(34:15):
very much against it, wrote about it a lot. He
was obsessed with poop and masturbation. Wrote about it in
a book called Plain Facts for the Old and Young,
about half of which were facts maybe, and this is
one of the things he wrote about how to kick
the habit. So before Chuck reads is I want to

(34:35):
point this out. This is coming from one of the
most famous, most revered physicians in the world. Okay, bear
that in mind when you're listening to what he's about
to prescribe. A remedy which is almost always successful in
small boys is circumcision. The operations should be performed by
a surgeon without administering an anesthetic. That's the correct response.

(34:58):
You're right, they pass, they pass the test. You're all right, Sydney.
As the brief pain attending the operation will have a
salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected
with the idea of punishment, as it may well be
in some cases, the soreness, which continues for several weeks
interrupts the practice. And this had not been previously become

(35:20):
too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed.
So I fucking update this for a minute. If you
catch your son whyanking, I think, as you call it, um,
you would take your son to the doctor. To be
circumcised without anesthetic as punishment. That's why he just recommended
in that past. So it's all been kind of fun.

(35:41):
But this guy is a monster. Yeah, oh yeah, we
forgot to tell you. This is where it takes a
really dark turn. Another method of treatment consists in the
application of one or more silver sutures in such a
way as to prevent erection altogether. The foreskin is drawn
forward over the glands, and the needle to which the

(36:02):
wires attached has passed through from one side to the other.
After drawing the wire through, the ends are twisted together
and cut off close. It is now impossible for an
erection to occur. You held a book and the slight
irritation thus produce x as the most powerful means of
overcoming the disposition to resort to the practice. Monster. Yeah,

(36:23):
he was a monster, Okay, And I know he was
doing this in the back room. I disagree. We have
an ongoing dispute about this. I was wanking. I think
he never did. I honestly think he never ever ever
did in his entire life. I think he wanted to,
but I don't think he did. Um women didn't get
off the hook. He knew that they masturbated too, so

(36:47):
he had it no, no, no, get out of the
way back machine man, come to the future. It's okay
he uh if. And if you were on the fence
about John Harvey prepared to tip over? Um, he had
an easy solution for that. Just throw some carbolic acid

(37:09):
on the female genitalia or junk Isn't think about that
next time you eat corn flakes. We'll get to the ceial.
Trust me, that's coming. He had some other really stupid
ones to like tying your hands together. That's like the
three stooges remedy actually makes it a little easier to

(37:33):
be honest. He was away off face. I don't know
about you could still you could still get the job done.
What else, Oh, here's one. He built a sort of
an underwear contraption with a cage on the front that

(37:56):
went around your genitalia, and just in case you could
not be stopped, he built a literal prison around your genitalia.
So that means that, um that John Harvey Kellogg invented
the tanning bed apparently, peanut butter and the in the
box justin timber Lake rolling over in his grave in

(38:24):
the future. Yeah, he's alive for now, he's doing quite well.
He eats a saddle of lambid day, all right. So
that's a bit of the dark side of John Harvey. Uh,
it gets even darker because he was also a eugenicist, right,
You've heard us talk about this some on the show.
If you don't know what that is, it is sort

(38:45):
of this insane belief of racial purity to like the
nth degree, to where he thought like, not only white
is right, but you should, we should have a pedigree system.
And it was it was all tied into like eating
in health and stuff too. It was called he actually
had a version called authentics, and eugenicists made fun of

(39:05):
him behind his back. He was so out there. Yeah,
his whole thing was eugenics plus where you could actually
be even more racially pure if you were a vegetarian
or you suitured your foreskin, you know, for fun on
a Thursday. And like Chuck was saying, like even the
eugenicists were like this guy's oh was mine? You heard

(39:26):
what he thinks, which is really saying something coming from eugenicists,
you know. Yeah, his eugenic he never did it, but
he proposed the Eugenic Registry where he created a pedigree
of breeding between people like dogs, to where you could
you should only breed with certain types to make the
uber race like dogs, which I mean like if that

(39:48):
had ever taken whole, can imagine what Tinder would be
like the Lord. But apparently to John Harvey Kellogg, it
went white people, cocker spaniels. All right, now we're gonna
get to cereal finally, thank you, thank you. We all

(40:10):
got through it. You can still hold hands if you want.
That's nice. So uh, as far as the Battle Creek
Sanitarium goes, in the medicine part, John Harvey had an
iron grip on things. As it was coming out of
my mouth, Josh is like, he had an iron grip

(40:32):
on nothing. I tell you he didn't. He didn't. He
had had a stranglehold on the medicine. But he was
not a great businessman. He changed, you know, sanatorium to sanitarium,
and I was like, hey, what do you think of that?
Check me out. Luckily for him he had a little

(40:52):
brother around, Remember young Will, He's still around. He was
actually a pretty good businessman and turns out a pretty
good marketer. And uh. When John Harvey was trying to
search for a breakfast health food which would later become
cereal as you will see. Uh, he hypothesized that you
know what, if we like get the digestion going before

(41:12):
you even eat it, that's even better for poop. Yeah,
the poop comes out that much easier. So so they started,
uh with double baked biscuits. They were basically these really
hard crackers that they double baked, so they were, you know,
already sort of digested. And I don't even think we

(41:33):
mentioned that he believed you should choose everything forty times
forty times? Can you manage chewing tofurky not? Could it
just be like ghosts choose after like you know, it's
like absorbed into my gums. So, as legend goes at
Battle Creek, a woman, an older lady, broke her dentures

(41:54):
on one of these double baked biscuits, and he was like,
this is not good because I don't want to get
sued by every old lady or young podcaster who breaks
his teeth. Did you get that one? I got implants?
All right, thanks appreciate that. Uh. And so they started

(42:15):
to grind them up into little little crumbs and breaks
up these little biscuits, and that was sort of their
first little version of what would become cereal. Right, that's
like the way Kellogg's tells it. The truer story is
that they said, we need a breakfast cereal that's, you know,
easy on the stomach. What what what does James Caleb
Jackson doing at his sanitarium And they went and found

(42:38):
out that he was making a cereal called granula, And
granula was made from graham powder. It's these little baked,
little nuggets um that are not food. You had to
soak them overnight in milk or water, your choice to
be able to eat it the next morning. Right, not
good breakfast cereal. And they said, let's steal that recipe,
and they took James Caleb Jackson's granula and they called

(43:02):
their version of it granula, because again, John Harvey was
not a very good business fan. So James Keller Jackson
found out about this and sued them, and they were
forced to come up with a new recipe in a
new name, and they came up with granola because again
they had a real knack for switching a vowel out
here there. That's the old John Harvey Kellogg trick. And

(43:25):
they swapped out the graham flower for wheat flour, and
they made something you guys have never been cursed with.
We did our research, um, something called grape nuts. Has
anyone ever heard of grape nuts? They're like these little
tiny pebbles. Yeah, it's like, um, boy, as a kid,
if you ever made the mistake of thinking it tastes
anything like grapes, if you were wrong, or even nuts,

(43:47):
it's like, yeah, you're right. It's like if you took
a rock and a hammer and broke it up into
the smallest things that you could and said box, go
have sex with a cardboard box, and then whatever that
produces is grape nuts. Cereal. It's disgusting. So that is

(44:11):
when it's still it's still like a popular cereals still
around today. Yeah, and old folks, Yes, every every kid
in America goes through this rite of passage where you know,
when you pour a big bowl of cereal, you're like, hell, yeah, honeycombs,
I love these things or um uh, what do you
call them, like choco pops or something like that. Very cereal,
So you pour like a big old bull. You do

(44:32):
not do that with grape nuts because they are denser
than a neutron star. But you don't know that as
a kid, and you pour a big old bowl and
by the time like you realize you're horrible mistake. Your
mom's like you already put milk on that. You have
to finish that whole thing, finish all that grape nuts,
and you have to finish it. You never make that

(44:53):
mistake again. It's a it's a bad day when that happened,
they should call it large hadron collider cereal. But the
thing about grape nuts is grape nuts came out of
the Kellogg brothers stealing granula from Caleb Jackson. Grape nuts
is made by the C. W. Post Company, and c W.
Post was a patient at the Battle Creek Sanitarium and

(45:15):
he stole the recipe from grape nuts from the Kellogg brothers.
What a time to be alive. It really was just
steal everything. It doesn't matter, change a letter, it's fine,
all right. So they're experimenting. They still didn't have these
lovely little flakes that we know as corn flakes for
frosted flakes. They were experimenting with flavor. They were experimenting

(45:36):
with like gram flour with wheat flour. Uh. Finally they
tried corn and they thought they were onto something with corn.
And it depends on who you asked, but either John Harvey,
Will his little brother, or his wife Ella. John Harvey's
wife found out that if you is that a subway,
I think it's an earthquake. Okay? Are we good? Is
this normal? Do you guys have earthquakes? Here? It's a

(45:58):
rat parade. Mit ain't as young as out in front.
They're all like doing their top path. It's very Jerry
leave that in, Yeah, Jerry leave that in? Where was I? Okay?

(46:20):
So either La Will or John Harvey realized that one
of the key things was to roll it out really
really flat. So they were getting there. They were double
baking it. They landed on corn. They were rolling it
out flat, but it still wasn't quite right. No, so, um,
John Harvey, there was something else we didn't mention. If
you couldn't poop and the calonic machine wasn't working, he

(46:40):
would just take out part of your colon and surgery.
That was another thing he could do. Right. It maybe
much too bitch in there, sir, Maybe maybe tossing a
silver suture for free while he was at it. While
you were under right, So he was called away to
surgery one day while he and Will were experimenting down
in the basement in the sanitarium, and Umi was notoriously frugal,

(47:01):
so rather than throw away the dough they've been working
on that hadn't worked, he just kind of set it
off to the side for later. And when he came back,
he found that something had happened, something called tempering, where
the dough gets just a little bit moldy, not like
you gross moldy, but kind of like this is delicious moldy, right,
like the air in the water just kind of spreads

(47:23):
evenly around it. And the upshot of all this is
that when you bake mold that's or baked dough that's
been tempered, it turns into perfect little flakes. So that's
how the flaked breakfast cereal was accidentally discovered in the
Battle Creek Sanitarium by Will, who is too cheap to
throw away the dough. That's right. So John Harvey was thrilled,

(47:43):
Uh not because he wanted to become a cereal magnate.
He was like, I'm a doctor, I want this for
my patients. Uh, now we can just easily pour this
breakfast cereal into a bowl, and for the first time
people can eat a very simple, nutritious what we think
is at least as a nutritious breakfast. And uh Will
was like, well, I don't know, big brother, he said

(48:05):
in his head because he dared not speak aloud. Right,
he said, the way I see it, and this is
all in his brain now, the way I see it,
you don't have to be ill to eat breakfast cereal.
I think healthy people might just like a special, little
simple breakfast that they can pour out of a bowl.
And he was sitting over there going like this, and

(48:26):
Jarvey said, John Harvey said, what are you doing over there?
You have nothing, big brother, nothing, pay no attention. Are
you thinking about wanking? No? On. So in the end, however,
the patent for flaked cereals and Process of preparing same

(48:48):
was issued on April fourteen to John Harvey Kellogg alone,
not his wife nor his brother, just to him. And
it did pretty well for a little while. It did. Um.
They sold something like a hundred and eighty thousand cases
in in um. No, I'm sorry. They sold the stuff
for about ten years UM, and they sold enough that

(49:09):
they were making their money back. They were selling it
outside of the sanitarium, but not much, not much. Will
figured out that they would probably sell a lot more
of the cereal if it didn't taste like so he said,
I've got an idea. It's a radical idea, but I

(49:30):
think this might just work. Let's add a little bit
of salt and sugar to this cereal recipe. And John
Harvey might get out demon salt and sugar are as
bad as olives, and uh, he'd had a change of
heart about alives by this time, and Will said, no, no,
I really I think this is a good idea. And
if you stop and think about it, everyone's head like

(49:51):
Kellogg's corn flicks, right, how much sugar do you have
to put on those things to make them taste decent?
Imagine what they must have tasted like before. What we're
all eating is the improved taste version, right, because I
can't imagine how bland they were before? And just cry,
eating these things so still better than grape nuts, nuts

(50:15):
of the worst? Uh, Captain crunch, peanut butter? Do you
have that here? Captain crunch? Oh? What you've had? It?
Isn't it the best? It's the best sugary cereal. When
my wife goes out of town. That's my vice. Like
some guys are like, I don't know. I don't know
what guys do when women go out of town their wives.

(50:35):
I get cereals, like she'll never know when she comes back,
she's like, do I smell breakfast cereal? How could you
let me smell your spoon? It sounded dirty for some reason? Oh?

(51:03):
Where are we? So, Jerry, Jerry, Okay, I know where
I'm sorry. So John Harvey goes out of town. He
goes to Europe to do some lecturing and back then.
I guess it takes like a month to go to Europe,
in a month to come back, and a couple of
months to go on tour and do his lecturing. He's
gone for he was gone long enough for a little
brother to build a manufacturing plant. Will was like, I

(51:24):
hope he doesn't notice the mass production plant that I
built while he was gone, with big vats of sugar
and salt. And John Harvey came back and he was
really piste off, and he said, you're gonna pay for
this out of your own pocket, out of your allowance
that I gave you, out of your chief allowance that
I give you, and Will was done. He was like,
I'm done. I'm tired of you, big brother. I've been

(51:46):
working for you and getting abused for all these years.
He said, Uh, everyone listening, please note I just made
a friends reference. Do you have friends here? Sure? They
called it mates man, which apparently made either means like

(52:10):
I love you or you're about to get your ass kicked.
I had thus this whole time, have been like, all right,
are you howking? Are we fighting? Just hugging, Just hug
that's it. That's our motto, just hugging. Wank So the sanitarium.
Will had had enough. The sanitarium actually burned down in

(52:31):
n two from a from an accidental uh furnace gone wrong,
and Will was like, all right, I'll help you rebuild
this because we've all kind of put everything into it.
And then after that, I'm really gone, trust me. He
was genuinely spineless. Yes, he was, brother, I'm out of
here after I help you rebuild the fifteen story sanitarium.

(52:53):
But John Harvey actually refused to get on that sugar train.
He sold the sweetened version to his brother. He actually
bought the patent from his brother of the decent tasting
version and on February nine six at the age of
forty six years old. I'm a little older than that,
even he was a late bloomer. Yeah, yeah, when we

(53:15):
get it. Will Kellogg founded the Battle Creek Toasted corn
Flake Company and became a very, very very rich man.
So at this point, John Harvey and Will Kellogg have
now gone their separate ways for basically the first time
in their lives. And we're going to take a message
break again right here. So Alex, if you will come

(53:38):
out one more time, Alex Sexton, everybody, we will be
right back right after this messages. He st off with
jos trae ah oh together now everyone of you. Nice sport.

(54:23):
Thank you, Alex w wow. Uh and we're back everybody,
thank you. Kind of it's like we've practiced this or something.

(54:46):
You guys are good. So um Will struck out on
his own with the recipe that he bought from his brother,
and uh. Now he started selling a hundred and eighty
thousand cases of corn flakes in the first year, first
year after he separated from his brother, less than the
first year, because they separated in February, So in less
than a year he sold a hundred and eighty thousand cases,

(55:10):
and there's like four or five boxes to a case
of corn flakes because they okay, there's like six or
seven boxes to a case. Because he put a little
salt and a little sugar, and it started to take
the world by storm. But he realized he was never
going to um make it a national product unless he
took New York, because you know, if you could make

(55:32):
it there, you could make it anywhere. So he started
something it's pretty good and ever, thank you, I just
came up with that. I like that. That should be
a T shirt. It should be we should totally license
it and get our suit off for it. Uh So
he um he started an advertising campaign and he threw

(55:52):
me off. He started an advertising campaign specifically for New
York called Wink Wednesday, which was pretty risque actually, especially
for will Kellogg, but also for nineteen o six. It
was basically he might as well have been asking women
to show a little ankle, because he advertised in all
the New York papers on Wednesday, when you go shopping, ladies,

(56:15):
wink at your grocer, and your grocer will give you
a free box of corn flakes. And you know, obviously
people would do anything for free corn flakes, including winking
at a strange man not winking. No, no, that was
it was a different egg camp. But it was a
big deal to give away a free box of cereals.

(56:36):
You know, it wasn't There were no You didn't have
to enter stuff as your code or anything like that.
Just a wink and you get your your free cereal.
So it was a big deal. Another few dominoes started
to fall to help this thing really explode. In the
nineteen tens, pasteurization of milk finally happened, so it was
no longer dangerous to eat cereal. I guess what else

(56:58):
did they come up with? Oh like kids like cutting
out box tops and mailing them in for sort of
creddy prizes. That was a big marketing thing in Battle Creek, Michigan.
If you grow up, even like at our age in
the nineteen seventies and eighties in America, you knew like
Battle Creek, Michigan was an address where they would send
you things. If you sent in cereal, I want a

(57:20):
crappy whistle. It's gonna break after three blows. But I
got basically because they sent in a box top. That
was the whole thing. Uh. They started expanding into new
markets in nineteen fourteen, went to Canada. Uh. They started
brand flakes in the nineteen fifteens and sixteens. They finally
in the nineteen twenties built a plant right here in Sydney, Australia,

(57:44):
right and uh oh, what else? They they invented the
little uh those awesome little single serving boxes that are
still one of my favorite things because they're like small things.
I think the little single serving a cereal box that
you can actually open up and eat out of. It's
like the pinnacle of human technology. It's pretty good. I

(58:07):
love it. Large Hadron collider mini box that you can
eat out of cereal. Who knew the large Hadron collider
was going to make two appearances I have in a
nineteenth century Kellogg's episode. Uh oh. And the other thing
Will did was very revolutionary. During the Great Depression when
people were I mean a lot of people are going
out of business, businesses were not doing well, or they

(58:29):
would just really kind of go down to bare bones,
he doubled down on advertising because he thought, I've actually
got a pretty cheap, easy to eat food and he
made money during the Great Depression. It was remarkable. He
was extraordinarily successful. He founded the W. K. Kellogg Foundation.
He endowed it with fifty million dollars is back in
like the nineteen tents, just a tremendous amount of money.

(58:52):
Now it's worth like nine billion today. Um so he
was extraordinarily wealthy. And all of this happened the moment
he stepped doubt from his brother's shadow. And his brother
didn't like that one bit. So John Harvey said, well,
I don't care at all about um cereal myself, but
I really don't like my little brother being successful. So

(59:14):
I'm gonna make my own cereal. I'm going to make
corn flakes and I think i'll call them Kellogg's corn flakes.
Now he said corn flakes with an M, and people
like corn flakes or corn flakes, and he was like, yeah,

(59:35):
you tell me right. So he made these things and
Will was like, well, big brother, I'll see you in
court and he sued John Harvey, and John Harvey said,
oh yeah, well I'm suing you back because that's the
American way. And they went to court with them dueling lawsuits.
And what was that issue was who had the right

(59:57):
to use the Killogg name. I mean, what was really
a hurt was ego. Let's be honest. They were both
named Kellogg. That's part of it. But also John Harvey
was like, I'm the famous John Harvey Kellogg. I'm the
Doctor Oz of my day. And it was like who
is that? He's like, just wait, you'll see it's a
sensible reference. Do you know who doctor Oz is? Okay,

(01:00:20):
r Australia. I was like, wait a minute, did they
get that Dr Australia. I'd go to that guy right.
So so on the other hand, Will was like, well,
wait a minute, wait a minute. Yes, my brother is
the most famous doctor in all the land, but I

(01:00:42):
have built this Kellogg's brand over the last you know,
couple of decades and I've actually eclipsed his fame. So
there's there was like, like you said, a lot of
ego at shirt here the family name, but also which
was the more famous Kellogg? And it turns out that
the court said lose. He wasn't a good guy either,

(01:01:04):
by the way. He didn't Yeah, he didn't silver suiture things.
But yet he was very he was a very unhappy,
I'm fulfilled man. He would uh spend a lot of
evenings at home kind of longingly looking at the cage
that his brother had built around his genitalia and just think,
why why did I let him talk me into that?

(01:01:27):
And does anyone have any wirecutters? I don't know about that.
So after these lawsuits, they rarely ever spoke again. And
was I mean, really really sad. If you've ever had
a good brother or a good sibling, you know how
wonderful that is. They were not tight at all. They
didn't speak. Uh. If they ever did, Will would make
sure he had a witness there just to hear the conversation. Uh.

(01:01:50):
You know, things are really bad when you have like
a stenographer in the room at Thanksgiving. Uh. So today
most nutritionist agree and obesity experts agree that they actually
had it kind of wrong as far as corn flakes scale. Yeah, so,
I mean, the whole reason they made corn flakes in
the first place was to aid in digestion, because everybody

(01:02:11):
showed up like, oh, I feel so terrible, and they
would feed them corn flakes or brand flakes or whatever.
But in doing this and pre digesting the food for
the patient by baking it a couple of times, um,
they actually stripped away a lot of the actual healthy
stuff from the grain. Right, if you just strip away
the outside of corn or of weed or something like that,

(01:02:33):
that's the stuff that allows you to kind of um
slowly digest something and keeps your blood sugar from spiking.
So back then and today, if you ate something like
corn flakes or like any kind of breakfast cereal, your
blood sugar would spike and it would crash and you
would get ravenously hungry very early. Whereas if you ate
like whole grain like gruel or mush, it might have

(01:02:56):
sucked and taken three hours to make, but you would
stay full or longer. Um. So yeah, today breakfast cereals poisoned.
I guess it's the message of all of this. Ironically,
So the sanitarium and Battle Creek was driven out of
business eventually for a few reasons. Um, the Great Depression
was a big one. Um. You know, when there's a

(01:03:17):
recession or a depression in the country, the first thing
to go still today are these sort of luxury items.
And so this hippie dippy like uber lux health spa
in the early nineteen hundreds of the nineteen twenties and thirties,
it was not like celebrities even stopped going there. That's
how bad it got during the depression. Like even Amelia
Earhart stopped showing up after a while. Really is it

(01:03:42):
is it too soon for an Amelia kick? Uh? Some
people classed at that awful, awful, mean spirited joke. So yeah,
he had to lay offf workers. Uh. Will was getting
rich and on Harvey was going broke, well not broke,
but he was getting more poor. Eventually he would have

(01:04:04):
to sell off the building itself to the US government.
They converted it into a military hospital and Battle Creek
though was somehow because of the cereal boom, became the
home of breakfast cereal around the world. So there were
one hundred different cereal company. I guess they thought that's
the only place you could make it. Like, oh, I
guess we gotta go to central Michigan to make serial. Sorry,

(01:04:27):
we want to make cereal. We got to move there.
But I mean still today it's still the serial capital
of the world. And uh. In his twilight years, John
Harvey became very very much eccentric, even more eccentric in
his than his younger days. Yeah he um. He would
have like two hour long meals a couple of times
a day, end up putting on a lot of weight,
and he was a vegetarian. Bear in mind, but during

(01:04:48):
these meals he would have guests and he would say,
excuse me, guests, I'll be right back, and you would
pick up a pail on his way out, and he
would come back with a pail filled with his own
poop and he would say, gettle, gettle, whiff of this.
He seriously, that's not a joke. He said that that
his stools were as sweet as a nursing baby, well
the nursing babies stools, I should say, or that they

(01:05:10):
were no more offensive than warm biscuits. Which if that's true,
that's actually kind of worth showing off at dinner. To
tell you the truth, I might actually be like, seriously,
smell it smells like warm biscuits. I've thrown a lot
of dinner parties. But no one like that, not like that.

(01:05:31):
So finally he approached death. And we have to point
out these guys. I mean, they were cookie, but they
lived into their late eighties and nineties at a time
when people didn't generally live that long. So they were
doing something right diet wise. And in three is John
Harvey approached death in his late eighties, he started to
feel a little bit bad about little brother Will after

(01:05:52):
eight years of being a dick, and he wrote a
letter of apology, and part of it said this, I
earnestly desire brother, to make amends for any wrong or
injustice of any sort I've done to you. I'm sure
you were quite white in regards Sorry Jerry cut that
part out. I realized I just said quite white, which

(01:06:15):
he probably meant that too. You're like such a cocker spaniel. Brother.
I realized you were quite white and right in regards
to the food business. Your better balanced judgment has doubtless
saved you from a vast number of mistakes of the
sword I've made, and allowed you to achieve great success,

(01:06:35):
for which generations will come to owe you gratitude. P S.
What's it like to have sex? I bet it's great? Right.
So he closed this letter and gave it to his secretary,
and his secretary took it um and read it and
decided not to mail it. Secretary found it just too

(01:06:57):
demeaning to John Harvey and decided that this isn't going anywhere.
But John Harvey didn't realize this, so he just sat
around waiting to hear back from Will and then died.
While you feel bad for this guy, did you forget
the carbolic acid and the white supremacy? No, that means
you have feelings that we live in the future. It's

(01:07:17):
fun to judge people who are who lived in the past.
So uh. Will eventually did get that letter though, five
years after John Harvey's death, when Will was eighty eight, uh,
and he was getting you know, on a their and age,
he got that letter and finally, at the end of
his long career, he realized that he had gotten his
brother's approval. Um. Granted, he didn't get to, you know,

(01:07:40):
say thank you or you're welcome back, but he got
this letter. H. The W. K. Collogue Foundation that he
started is now a nine billion dollar fund that guides
the belief that children, all children have an equal opportunity
to thrive. And they do really really good work here
uh in the all over the world actually, but especially
in the United States. It's a good good organ station.

(01:08:01):
So um. Will Harvey died and like Chuck kind of
alluded to earlier, he wasn't the greatest guy ever. He
had that little brother bitterness that only a little brother
can have when they have an older brother that they've
never resolved their issues with. And so that means that
he took it out on everybody else except for John Harvey.

(01:08:23):
So he was kind of a overbearing father and husband.
And when he died, his grandson and this is his grandson, right,
like like grandkids are supposed to just love their grandparents unconditionally,
not this one. Will's. Will's grandson wrote when he died
at age, nobody really shut a tear. Most felt a

(01:08:49):
great sense of relief, as if a heavy weight had
been lifted from them family. Am I right, corn flakes? Yeah?
But the grandson was like, but I really appreciate the
ten billion dollar inheritance. Grandpa right, he can rott in hell,
but I really like them on thank you, Grandpa? All right,

(01:09:12):
bring us home. Brother. So if you go to Oak
Hill Cemetery in Battle Creek, and a lot of people do, um,
you've been on the tour before hiving to the cereal tour. Seriously,
people go to Battle Creek to tour cereal factories. But
when you're there, when you're there, some people you can.

(01:09:33):
You can go to Oak Hill Cemetery and you can
visit Will Kellogg's a massive burial plot. It's like made
a blue slate, it's got black wrought iron fence around
it with the iconic Kellogg's k on that which that
was his signature. By the way, then Kelloggs that you
see is will signature UM. And it's a it's a
pretty big tourist stop in Battle Creek because there's nothing

(01:09:57):
to do in Battle Creek. But what most people don't
realize is that years before Will Kellogg bought that burial plot,
he and his brother had adjoining burial plots side by side,
with little simple tombstones, just enough for names and dates
of birth and dates of death. Um. It was weird
for brothers to have adjoining plots. We have a joining plots,
but we're friends, so it makes a little more sense.

(01:10:20):
But when people are visiting Will Kellogg's um grave, what
they don't realize is that just about ten spots away
his original grave site that he had moved from because
he hated his brother so much, His brother, John Harvey,
is still buried there. And so when they're visiting Will's grave,
just a few steps away, one of the most famous
physicians who ever lived in America is buried there in

(01:10:44):
a very simple little headstone. That's right. So even in death,
little brother finally is giving his brother the finger, you know.
And that's the story of the Kellogg's brothers. Everybody I said,
thank you. Yeah he bob by ah Wee said all right.