October 24, 2020 • 31 mins
If you want to control the masses, control what they read. After all, books are seeds that germinate new points of view. As a result, the struggle against banning books is contentious and continual. Learn more about banning books in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's
s Y s K Selects, I've chosen How Book Banning Works,
which is an episode we released all the way back
in two thousand and twelve, but it's as pertinent today,
sadly as it was back then. I hope you feel
inspired to go out and read a book that somebody
didn't want you to read, because you can enjoy. Welcome
(00:27):
to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My Heart
Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark. With me is Charles W. Chuck Bryant,
and this is stuff you should know. Do do do
do do do? Just just just did my little best anchor
(00:47):
man move, getting the papers all in order, reading the prompter.
Why wouldn't that be great? I don't feel so funny
these days. Man, Well, we need to get the teleprompter
writer to juice UF. You're through jokes. I agree. Everyone
knows that, right. We don't actually make any of this
stuff up. We have somebody right the show and we
read it. This is a very very um well rehearsed, practiced,
(01:12):
labored podcast. That's right. I think this is the second
of two good topics today. Yeah. Part one a sexuality huh?
Part two banning books? Yeah, what do they have to
do with each other? Nothing? I thought I saw a
common thread. No that I've looked, I've forgotten it. But
yeah there was something discrimination maybe, I guess. So maybe
(01:36):
we'll find out. It'll pop up. Possibly it'll be like
the Peewee secret word of the day. Oh yeah, isn't
that what it was called? I think so many it
was cool? So you got an intro proper for this
or chuck? Yes, are you familiar with the last week
of September? Yeah you are, yeah, through it before. Yeah,
it's after the third week and before the first week
(01:59):
of October. That's exactly right. It just so happens that
that very weak is banned book week. Did not know
that existed? Well it does today it does. Yeah. Yeah,
you haven't heard a banned book week before? Uh? No
I have. I've seen like the subversive um displays outside
of b Dalton booksellers, and you know, and basically the
(02:22):
whole point of it is, it's like, hey, people have
tried to ban these books, so make sure you read
these because it means that there's somebody out there who
doesn't want you to. That's right. Hey, look what I've got.
I've got to kill a mocking bird over here. Yeah
that's a bit. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole point of
Banned Books Week is to celebrate intellectual freedom. That's because
(02:44):
there are people out there who would take that away
from you if they could. We know it. You go
back and listen to some of our podcasts, there's certain
words that were beeped out because the man has as
under his thumb. Thanks gi um So. I would strongly
recommend it's coming up. By the time this thing gets released,
will be in September. That's right. We should probably post
(03:05):
something about band book Week when it comes Okay, yeah,
September thirty through October six Actually, um so, truly the
first week in October this year. It's weird than they
would put it the last week of October, first week
of OCTOBERA or last week of September. Yeah, yeah, that
was confusing for a second. Let's let's talk band books man.
More than eleven thousand books have been challenged since Josh,
(03:28):
that's just since eighty two they've been I was reading
about The Catcher in the rye um. It came out
in Wow, man, I wish I knew it came out
in the either the late fifties or the early sixties.
At the late fifties or nineteen sixty, because in nineteen
sixty a teacher who assigned it to his class for
reading got fired. Really yeah, Um, it's one of my
(03:50):
favorite books, is it. Yeah? And it's one that I've
reread several times over the years, and it always takes
on a little different meaning depending on my age, which
is interesting. Ye have you read The Catcher's Companion? No,
that's we got that as a gift, right, No, I
haven't ready yet. It's just like footnotes and extrapolations and
explanations like this guy went into catching the World of
(04:11):
Catcher in the Rye and like made footnotes of the
whole thing. It's actually thicker than The Catcher in the
Rye by the way. Okay, so fifty one within nine
years somebody lost their job because they assigned that book
to read. That's pretty common. Usually with UM book banning,
it comes out of um the public school system. Um. Yeah, library,
(04:33):
So well, that's it's usually school libraries. So if you
go on the internet and you look for banned books,
you're going to find a lot of um uh confusion.
There's this body called the American Library Association, and a
lot of people think that they're in charge of banning books.
(04:56):
It's absolutely the opposite of the truth. The American Library
Association is a it's it's basically the librarians lobby, and
they're committed to no censorship whatsoever. Yeah, ask any librarian
and they're they're gonna probably be in favor of not
banning books right. Um. As a matter of fact, the
(05:18):
a LA maintains a library Bill of Rights, and in
this library Bill of Rights is a provision for the
free access to libraries for minors, which basically says this,
we have a bunch of books that we're not going
to make any judgments on. If we have a book
that you don't want your kid to read, it's your
job as their parents to monitor what they read, and
(05:39):
you can decide what they read or not, but you
that's it. Your opinion doesn't extend to anyone else's kids.
So that means that if you want to ban a book,
we're going to tell you no because you're responsible for
your child, but not everybody else's child too, which means,
in short, that the a l A doesn't censor books.
(06:00):
This is a big deal because this happens a lot.
There's eleven thousand challenges you said since two since nineteen
eighty two, and I think there were in two thousand eleven.
There were three hundred and twenty six challenges last year. Um.
A few of these are the Color of Earth series
(06:22):
by Kim Dong Hua and The Reasons Why, Nudity, sex education,
the Hunger Games trilogy, My Mom's Having a Baby, a
kid's month by month guide to pregnancy. But we certainly
don't want our kids to learn anything about that, No,
especially not with um mom, Uh, Brave New World by Huxley, insensitivity, nudity, racism, um,
(06:47):
To Kill a Mockingbird, like we mentioned harper Ley's classic
because of offensive language and racism. And those are just
the few of the nine I'm sorry, ten most challenged
books of last year. Right. Um. You'll also of finding
just about every list. The most challenged series since two
thousand is the Harry Potter books. Um. They received three
(07:09):
thousand challenges. Um, and that was from up to I
believe like two thousand eight or nine, maybe to know
of two thousand ten. They were from two thousands to
two thousand ten, they received three thousand challenges and and
it was because it had satanic overtones or undertones, one
of the two, that's how or mid tones people challenging
(07:29):
it felt at least so for the most part, when
you see a book being challenged your band, it's because
people are concerned about its influence on children. But as
we've seen, the American Library Association says, hey, man, kids, kids,
there's free There should be free access to information for kids. Yeah,
Judy Blooms Forever is one that's always on the list
too for that reason because it deals with a uh,
(07:52):
young girls, burgeoning sexuality and confusion and the awkwardness and
the thrill that comes along with that. And that is
that was a great description. Yeah from a forty one
year old man with a beard. Well, dude, that was
fourteen Once the girls and boys are all like, you know,
we're all scared and awkward and thrilled. So how do
you how do you do this man? How do you
(08:13):
how do you issue a formal challenge to a book?
And what does that consist of? What does it mean?
It means that you have gone to a library, a
single library and said I want to challenge this book,
and the librarian decides whether or not to ban it.
So it's as simple as that. That's how book banning works. UM.
(08:34):
And you don't even have to use such lofty language
like I want to issue a challenge. You can just say, like,
this book needs to be taken out of this library.
This book is filth um, this book is pervasively vulgar.
That's a big one. Um. And the librarian at that
moment decides whether a book gets banned or not, and
(08:55):
for the most part, they air on the side of
not banning them. But when they say okay, let's take
that book out, that book has just been banned. So
it doesn't mean that a banned. That a book has
been banned, it doesn't mean it's been banned across the country,
although some some countries have like banned books and its entirety,
like the country's entirety. But in the US and in
(09:16):
the modern world, it usually means that somewhere in the
United States, there's a group of people, whether it's kids
in a school district or kids people who are served
by a public library, who don't have access to a
certain book because one person found it offensive and convinced
the librarian to to make the decision for everybody else
based on that person's objections. That's a banned book, Yeah,
(09:39):
person or persons. A lot of times it's a group
pointed together with like a list, even, and they'll rally
the troops and say, you know, come on out from
your your homes and let's get together and submit a list.
And the librarians, like you said, most times will say
no because they generally have the courts on their side
if it gets to that point. For the most part,
(10:01):
the courts like to defend the right, you know, the
First Amendment. But I mean, think about that pressure, especially
if you, like you are a school librarian and the
school board is telling you, like, hey, don't forget what
we you employ you, and we're telling you remove this book,
and the librarians like, no, ts, that's that's against the
(10:23):
First Amendment. Um, so should talk about some of the laws.
I think we should. Let's talk about Do you want
to talk about the history of it? Yeah? Um who
wrote this one? I think this was congered too, and
I don't think so. Oh yeah, it was a freelancer, Okay. Um,
you know, basically since the days of Socrates, they've been
trying to ban teachings of some sort. At the other um,
(10:45):
he was heavily scrutinized, and back then if you wanted
to ban something, he just burned the few copies of
it that existed and there was no problem. He was
made to drink hemlock for what he for what? T Yeah?
But yeah, I feel like if there's two copies of
in existence and you get both copies and you set
them on fire, and then what happened? What came along
(11:06):
well the printing press and all of a sudden you
had to officially try and ban a book because there
were too many to gather up and burn. And you
remember the Star Chamber starring Michael Douglas. Did you ever
watch that? They were the real Star Chamber? Did you?
Did you? There was a real okay, so the real
Star Chamber UM that was I think created in Stuart England.
(11:27):
Um Stewart era England. Man, I probably shouldn't even say that,
because I'm not sure. In England in the seventeenth century,
there was a group of judges that were in charge
of like they were like the elite judges. They were
the censor board. Basically was one of their roles, and
(11:48):
then Henry the Eighth came along and got rid of them,
but he started his own kind of censorship with licensing laws.
They basically said that the state had the opportunity to
censor things before they were even published. So that was
one of the earliest forms of straight up book banning,
book censorship. Good point, it happened a long time ago. Yeah.
(12:12):
Two Board of Education Island Trees School District v. Piko. Yeah,
that's a mouthful. Um. They said basically that you couldn't
remove library material just because like a school official doesn't
agree with the ideas. They said that the books on
the on their list were quote just plain filthy, and
(12:33):
some people said, now you were going to sue you
for that? Well, the Supreme Court said, so basically, it
has to be pervasively vulgar. I guess that's why they
use those words, because that's what they can actually ban
a book if who finds it that is there. I
think society basically well, for for the most part, um
(12:55):
as far as books go, for banning a book really
tough to do, as once it reaches the Supreme Court,
they're going to be like, no, it's a book put
it back. It's obscenity. That's not protected at all. Right, Well,
because the kicker there is the number three rule that
(13:17):
they decided, you know, should be used to determine if
something is I guess filthy, was it could contain no literary, artistic, political,
or scientific value. And that's the one where you know,
you can pretty much say claim any book has value
like that. That's how we have hardcore pornography. Still, I'm sorry,
so you can say this is art that's true. Um
(14:10):
So that that case, that two um Island Trees case
or Pico case, I don't know what they call it,
that was a really big deal because it took place
in a school library and um it basically the Supreme
Court said school libraries are special places. Schools are places
of inquiry, and so their repository of knowledge, meaning their library,
(14:34):
has special protection. Like we understand that you're worried about
the children's minds being corrupted, but you don't get to
decide that, like, this is information that's out there, and
as long as it's basically not like hardcore pornography, child pornography,
obscenity like it should it has every right to be
in there. Under the first first Amendment. It was a
(14:55):
big deal. It was a big deal. Uh. So was
I remember this one because I was on a newspaper
staff at the time and I got interviewed for the news.
Oh yeah, yeah, like the local news came out Hazelwood
School District v uh kur maya. Um. That was very
famously when newspaper. High school newspapers basically were said to
(15:18):
not have the same rights as like if you were
an adult running a newspaper, and it was not a
form of public expression, so schools could, uh, in the end,
kind of censor what was going in these things, at
least in like school curriculum. I thought it was in
the paper in the paper too. I'm sorry, I thought
you meant in these things meaning libraries. Yeah, no, no no, no,
(15:39):
in the in the but it was extended into classroom
curriculum too like that, which was a big deal. Yeah.
Did you read that article about Texas. Yeah, let's get
to that. You want to Yeah, okay, So, um, Texas
has this um very controversial textbook review committee that wields
a lot of power because textbook or Texas is the
(16:02):
biggest textbook buyer in the country, and so if you're
a textbook manufacturer and one state is ordering most of
your textbooks, You're just gonna print one and send it
to everybody. Yeah. It's basically Texas and California are the
two states that wield the most power because they spend
the most dough because they have the most school aged
(16:22):
kids basically, right, exactly, so they basically say what Texas
decides goes in their textbooks goes in the textbooks for
a lot of other states as well, not just Texas. Right. Yeah.
I looked at the expense of a textbook and I
think one of the manufacturers said something like several million
dollars can go into a like a major biology textbook
(16:42):
because of like the illustrations and everything that goes into it.
And they're like, we can't make one of these for
Texas and one for other states. It's just everyone's gonna
get Texas version of the truth. Exactly. So Texas has
this committee that is largely conservative that um starting and
I think two thousand nine, uh basically held hearings on
(17:05):
revisions that they wanted to see done to social studies curriculum.
These are elected people too, by the way, which is
important because apparently a lot of them can buy their
way right on that list. Okay, so social studies, you've
got history, sociology, economics, and um. A lot of the
stuff that they were adding in there were like, um,
(17:25):
I guess kind of slanted everything toward a little more
towards the idea that the founders of the United States
were Christian. Um, that the the they One of the
things they wanted to get in there was not just
Martin Luther King's non violent civil rights protests, but the
Black Panthers violent civil rights protests were another one. Um.
(17:46):
And if you're a conservative, you you're like, well, okay,
I I agree with a lot of what these people
are saying. The problem is is what they were saying
was that there's a liberal slant to ecademy and that
they were taking it upon themselves to correct that by
putting a conservative slant. Yeah. One of the other amendments
(18:08):
was to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures
who inspired revolutions of the late eighteenth century in nineteenth century,
and they said let's replace him with Thomas Akenis and
John Calvin instead. Another one in economics, um, they wanted
to add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, champions of
(18:29):
the free market economic theory. To the list of economist
studies we talked about, well, Milton Friedman in one where
basically he used Chile as a laboratory for UM reagan
Omics before Reagan was president, the trickle down economic Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I remember that. UM and then one of the ones
that was shot down by Democrat Mavis Knight, wanted to
(18:50):
introduce an amendment requiring students study the reasons for the
founding Fathers protecting a religious freedom by not saying one
religion is good above all else. And that was actually
struck down. They said, you can't put that in this book. Right,
she was a Democrat who introduced it. Yeah, it was public.
The Conservatives said no, Well they you know, basically vote
(19:12):
along party lines. So the vote was tend to four
or whatever it is. So it was a big deal,
like it had. It was one of those things that
kind of went under reported and underestimated. But there's a
really good documentary out there that came out and I
think two thousand nine, the Revisionaries UM and I think
(19:32):
it's up on Netflix streaming right now. It is Scott
Thurman and uh al I saw it was a trailer,
but it looked pretty good, and I mean it was
a big deal. It's not just like some people in
Texas want to change some textbooks. It's like has national implications, right,
It's an info war basically, And that's what book banning
is based on. In a lot of ways as well.
It's like if you can remove a different viewpoint, especially
(19:56):
when when it's being presented to kids, and you can
keep that viewpoint from taking from German eating in there
and they're emerging mind or worldview absolutely, and so books
like UM, Daddy's New Roommate gets banned. Yeah, about a
boy whose dad has a new boyfriend. Now he's a
(20:18):
divorced dad and his new roommate moves in as gay
and UM Sarah Palin herself asked for that to be
removed from the library when she was UM the mayor
of Wasilla, Alaska. Oh yeah, I remember that. And that
guy came out and said that woman is my mortal enemy.
Really and thanks for the press. That's what he should
(20:38):
have said to UH. In the meantime, in Texas, UM
Mary Helen Barlanga UM has tried repeatedly to get Latino
figures um included in textbooks as role models for the
large Hispanic population in Texas, and she's been repeatedly denied,
to the point where in two thousand ten she stopped
(20:58):
out of a meeting saying, they can't just pretend this
is white America and that we don't exist. These aren't experts,
these aren't historians. They're just rewriting history. So pretty hard words. Yeah,
things job. Do you want to hear some other challenged authors,
(21:45):
Let's man, because there's there's challenges all over the place,
apparently Judy Bloom of course, Robert Cormier or Cormier? Uh,
did you ever read I Am the Cheese when you're
growing up? Nope? Or The Chocolate War. I think I
read that one Great books band many times. J. K. Rowling,
she is uh, like I said, she is, I guess
(22:06):
of the devil because a lot of people have a
problem with the Harry Potter books. Um, Katherine Patterson Bridge
to Terri Bethia, I'm Stephen King may Angelou can't have
any of that. Yeah. The Alabama State Textbook Committee said that, um,
I know why the Cage Bird Sings encourages bitterness toward
white people. R. L. Stein who was sort of like
(22:30):
a Stephen King for kids. Yeah, goose Bumps. Yeah, and uh,
I think I actually worked on one of his little
TV shows, The Nightmare Room was a nightmare room, I
think so, uh yeah, back in the day. And John Steinbeck,
of course, yeah, in nine of Mice and Men was
banned in Chattanooga because Steinbeck was well known for his
(22:51):
anti business attitude. Um. And then Alvin Schwartz was number
one and hero one of my favorite sets of books,
scary stories to tell him the Dark. I never heard
of this. Oh man. They were scary with the most
ghastly illustrations you've ever seen. They're awesome. And those bands
because they're scary, and I guess so I was probably
(23:11):
satanic to um. So we were talking about how if
if a book is challenged, UM, it's probably if it
gets to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court is probably gonna
rule in favor of the librarian who said no. Um.
But that's that's not the case with obscenity, like obscene
(23:32):
literature like it is specifically excluded in US case law
from First Amendment protection. And that's kind of emerged over
the years, um, starting in eighteen seventy three with the
Comstock laws. It basically said like you can't sell obscene
literature in interstate commerce, right, and then people are like, okay,
(23:57):
well then we we won't or don't enforce or whatever,
and it just kind of went went enforced or unchallenged
for like three quarters of a century. And then in
the fifties you had um Roth versus the United States,
where all of a sudden, we're like, wait, we need
to start explaining what obscenity is because you can't just
(24:18):
say that's just whatever. That's what they started as though,
Like in the fifties they basically said obscenity pornography basically
is what that means um has utterly or is utterly
without um social value. That was a big quote, so
that basically was a mark against anybody who's pro obscenity, right.
(24:42):
And then in the seventies there was one called Miller
versus California, and this guy basically sent out a mass
mailer chuck of an advertisement for his adult magazines. So
everybody got him old people, kids, housewives, business meant everybody
into their mail that they opened it up and like
there's like, basically obscene advertising, and so California arrested the
(25:08):
guy and it went to trial, and the Supreme Court said, okay, um, yes,
obscenities not protected, but we need to say what obscenity is.
And they came up with this three point test called
the Miller tests, which is has that one problem you
were talking about her? Yeah. The third one is no
no artistic merit basically literary, political, or scientific value. Which
(25:31):
it's probably the terms that they nailed this guy for. Yeah.
You know, if it was just a flyer of like
pornographic ads, he couldn't really say no, this is literature,
like check these out. Um. The other two were involved
patently offensive sexual conducts or appeal to prurient interest. When
taken as a whole, there it is. That's what connected
(25:52):
a sexuality curient is that it? Yeah, um, but the
big point with those, chuck, is that, um, the the
prurient interest is local, so basically like if everybody in
your town would be offended by this, then that's the
local judgment that's for that standard. But then the scientific
artistic literary standard is national, so like if your town
(26:16):
thinks it's science, but your town is a note as
talking about that's not a standard, right, So that's obscenity,
that's subscendity. But the good thing is it's like, if
you are trying to um ban something as obscene, the
burden of proof is on you to prove these three
This thing passes all three points of the Miller type,
that's true, and that's a tough, tough burden to get
(26:36):
passed into court. Is tough. I'm surprised that more book
banning fans aren't trying to infiltrate the library community, you
know what I'm saying. I think they do constantly. Librarians. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, if that's where the power is,
I think the librarians like really um like the library industries. Yeah,
(27:00):
it's very powerful, and like if they find out that
you're you're a wolf in sheep's clothing, they'll kill you. Boy,
have you ever talked to librarians. Chris Poulette here is
a librarian. They're really passionate, passionate people. It's it's it's
almost like a public service in a way. Yeah, because
I'm sure they don't make a lot of dough and
they just all really believe in knowledge and protecting, protecting freedoms. Yeah,
(27:23):
it's pretty cool. Yeah, librarians. Yeah, could give your local
librarian a pat on the back today. Yeah, give him
a hug. Ask him first and then give him a hug.
And if they say no, don't give him a hug, right,
just shake their hand and politely not Yeah, maybe a
Curtesy and um, that's great, Chuck, I like the courtesy.
Al Right, Well, if you want to learn more about
banned books, we suggest you go to the a l
(27:45):
A site. Uh it's I believe a la dot com.
And then you can also write in banned books in
the search bar at how stuff works dot com and
it's going to bring up this, uh, really great article. Finally,
it's time for a listener Matt Okay, Josh, I'm gonna
call this disco fever from Diane in Kentucky. Hey, guys,
(28:09):
your disco episode brought back fond memories for me. In
the summer of nine, I was in my early twenties
and I've just made it from the Sticks to the
big city, New York City. It's a big city. I
had very little money, the city's infrastructure was crumbling. Then
this kind of what we pointed out, you know, the
bad economy, and I was separated from my boyfriend by
a continent, a bigger obstacle in those days before cell phones,
(28:32):
in the internet and reasonable airfairs. Like that was back
when a long distance relationship was like serious. You know,
um remember those days, like is it long distance? Don't
talk too long? It's long distance? Yeah, Now it's like what, Yeah,
I forgot about that, um ten, ten to twenty or whatever,
Like certain times a day we're cheaper or something. No,
there's like a number you could dial out, like real
(28:55):
cheap long distance, remember that, I think is one. I
was questioning the decisions I had made in my life,
and it was pretty much a struggle for me. But
I had disco. I would go with a guy friend
to a place on Third Avenue that was more or
less the equivalent of an Applebee's with disco music and
a dance floor complete with disco ball. It certainly wasn't
(29:16):
what you would call a discothequer or a cool played
by any stretch of the imagination. But she was broke
and we could order the cheapest thing on the menu
and spend a whole night dancing. I was completely oblivious
to any social or cultural implications of the music, but
just knew that it was cheap entertainment and so much fun. Yes,
the lyrics were silly and the beat was rather unimaginative,
(29:38):
but coming off the era of Vietnam, Watergate and a
plethora of social upheavals, that was the great part of
the appeal. Dancing to disco and laughing at the lyrics
was play. It was easy to learn the moves and
much for her, not for me. Uh, and much more
fun than the mindless dancing um which attended rock music,
(29:58):
which I like to listen to. But let's face at
dancing to rock music it's pretty boring, pretty fast. I
don't know if I thought it was the best disco song,
but one of the most fun and exhilarating and inanely
silly for me was Donna Summers MacArthur Park. Still brings
a smile to my face just thinking about it. I
didn't know Donna Summers, did MacArthur Park. I had listen
(30:18):
to that. Then. That was Diane Rally in Louisville, Kentucky.
Huh So glad we could bring back some good memories
there for you. Yeah, thanks a lot, Diane and Salston
and we heard from a lot of people who are
like guys, you're saying that, Um, if I hate discoats
because I'm homophobic, don't be stupid. No, we didn't say
that specifically. We said, if you hate disco outright with
(30:39):
a burning passion, but for no real reason, you can't
really tell why it's getting to you like this, maybe
it's time to step back in examine it. Sure. We
also said that there's plenty room for people who just
don't like disco, just don't like the music, and it
doesn't mean you're hobopholic, so of course, lighten up and
listen more clearly. Um, if you want to get in
touch with me and Chuck, you can tweet, tweet to us,
(31:01):
twit um to s y s K podcast. You can
also join us on Facebook dot com slash Stuff you
Should Know. You can also read us the Riot Act
via via email, uh tow stuff podcast at how stuff
Works dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production
of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for
(31:23):
my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H
M Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's
s Y s K Selects, I've chosen How Book Banning Works,
which is an episode we released all the way back
in two thousand and twelve, but it's as pertinent today,
sadly as it was back then. I hope you feel
inspired to go out and read a book that somebody
didn't want you to read, because you can enjoy. Welcome
(00:27):
to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My Heart
Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark. With me is Charles W. Chuck Bryant,
and this is stuff you should know. Do do do
do do do? Just just just did my little best anchor
(00:47):
man move, getting the papers all in order, reading the prompter.
Why wouldn't that be great? I don't feel so funny
these days. Man, Well, we need to get the teleprompter
writer to juice UF. You're through jokes. I agree. Everyone
knows that, right. We don't actually make any of this
stuff up. We have somebody right the show and we
read it. This is a very very um well rehearsed, practiced,
(01:12):
labored podcast. That's right. I think this is the second
of two good topics today. Yeah. Part one a sexuality huh?
Part two banning books? Yeah, what do they have to
do with each other? Nothing? I thought I saw a
common thread. No that I've looked, I've forgotten it. But
yeah there was something discrimination maybe, I guess. So maybe
(01:36):
we'll find out. It'll pop up. Possibly it'll be like
the Peewee secret word of the day. Oh yeah, isn't
that what it was called? I think so many it
was cool? So you got an intro proper for this
or chuck? Yes, are you familiar with the last week
of September? Yeah you are, yeah, through it before. Yeah,
it's after the third week and before the first week
(01:59):
of October. That's exactly right. It just so happens that
that very weak is banned book week. Did not know
that existed? Well it does today it does. Yeah. Yeah,
you haven't heard a banned book week before? Uh? No
I have. I've seen like the subversive um displays outside
of b Dalton booksellers, and you know, and basically the
(02:22):
whole point of it is, it's like, hey, people have
tried to ban these books, so make sure you read
these because it means that there's somebody out there who
doesn't want you to. That's right. Hey, look what I've got.
I've got to kill a mocking bird over here. Yeah
that's a bit. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole point of
Banned Books Week is to celebrate intellectual freedom. That's because
(02:44):
there are people out there who would take that away
from you if they could. We know it. You go
back and listen to some of our podcasts, there's certain
words that were beeped out because the man has as
under his thumb. Thanks gi um So. I would strongly
recommend it's coming up. By the time this thing gets released,
will be in September. That's right. We should probably post
(03:05):
something about band book Week when it comes Okay, yeah,
September thirty through October six Actually, um so, truly the
first week in October this year. It's weird than they
would put it the last week of October, first week
of OCTOBERA or last week of September. Yeah, yeah, that
was confusing for a second. Let's let's talk band books man.
More than eleven thousand books have been challenged since Josh,
(03:28):
that's just since eighty two they've been I was reading
about The Catcher in the rye um. It came out
in Wow, man, I wish I knew it came out
in the either the late fifties or the early sixties.
At the late fifties or nineteen sixty, because in nineteen
sixty a teacher who assigned it to his class for
reading got fired. Really yeah, Um, it's one of my
(03:50):
favorite books, is it. Yeah? And it's one that I've
reread several times over the years, and it always takes
on a little different meaning depending on my age, which
is interesting. Ye have you read The Catcher's Companion? No,
that's we got that as a gift, right, No, I
haven't ready yet. It's just like footnotes and extrapolations and
explanations like this guy went into catching the World of
(04:11):
Catcher in the Rye and like made footnotes of the
whole thing. It's actually thicker than The Catcher in the
Rye by the way. Okay, so fifty one within nine
years somebody lost their job because they assigned that book
to read. That's pretty common. Usually with UM book banning,
it comes out of um the public school system. Um. Yeah, library,
(04:33):
So well, that's it's usually school libraries. So if you
go on the internet and you look for banned books,
you're going to find a lot of um uh confusion.
There's this body called the American Library Association, and a
lot of people think that they're in charge of banning books.
(04:56):
It's absolutely the opposite of the truth. The American Library
Association is a it's it's basically the librarians lobby, and
they're committed to no censorship whatsoever. Yeah, ask any librarian
and they're they're gonna probably be in favor of not
banning books right. Um. As a matter of fact, the
(05:18):
a LA maintains a library Bill of Rights, and in
this library Bill of Rights is a provision for the
free access to libraries for minors, which basically says this,
we have a bunch of books that we're not going
to make any judgments on. If we have a book
that you don't want your kid to read, it's your
job as their parents to monitor what they read, and
(05:39):
you can decide what they read or not, but you
that's it. Your opinion doesn't extend to anyone else's kids.
So that means that if you want to ban a book,
we're going to tell you no because you're responsible for
your child, but not everybody else's child too, which means,
in short, that the a l A doesn't censor books.
(06:00):
This is a big deal because this happens a lot.
There's eleven thousand challenges you said since two since nineteen
eighty two, and I think there were in two thousand eleven.
There were three hundred and twenty six challenges last year. Um.
A few of these are the Color of Earth series
(06:22):
by Kim Dong Hua and The Reasons Why, Nudity, sex education,
the Hunger Games trilogy, My Mom's Having a Baby, a
kid's month by month guide to pregnancy. But we certainly
don't want our kids to learn anything about that, No,
especially not with um mom, Uh, Brave New World by Huxley, insensitivity, nudity, racism, um,
(06:47):
To Kill a Mockingbird, like we mentioned harper Ley's classic
because of offensive language and racism. And those are just
the few of the nine I'm sorry, ten most challenged
books of last year. Right. Um. You'll also of finding
just about every list. The most challenged series since two
thousand is the Harry Potter books. Um. They received three
(07:09):
thousand challenges. Um, and that was from up to I
believe like two thousand eight or nine, maybe to know
of two thousand ten. They were from two thousands to
two thousand ten, they received three thousand challenges and and
it was because it had satanic overtones or undertones, one
of the two, that's how or mid tones people challenging
(07:29):
it felt at least so for the most part, when
you see a book being challenged your band, it's because
people are concerned about its influence on children. But as
we've seen, the American Library Association says, hey, man, kids, kids,
there's free There should be free access to information for kids. Yeah,
Judy Blooms Forever is one that's always on the list
too for that reason because it deals with a uh,
(07:52):
young girls, burgeoning sexuality and confusion and the awkwardness and
the thrill that comes along with that. And that is
that was a great description. Yeah from a forty one
year old man with a beard. Well, dude, that was
fourteen Once the girls and boys are all like, you know,
we're all scared and awkward and thrilled. So how do
you how do you do this man? How do you
(08:13):
how do you issue a formal challenge to a book?
And what does that consist of? What does it mean?
It means that you have gone to a library, a
single library and said I want to challenge this book,
and the librarian decides whether or not to ban it.
So it's as simple as that. That's how book banning works. UM.
(08:34):
And you don't even have to use such lofty language
like I want to issue a challenge. You can just say, like,
this book needs to be taken out of this library.
This book is filth um, this book is pervasively vulgar.
That's a big one. Um. And the librarian at that
moment decides whether a book gets banned or not, and
(08:55):
for the most part, they air on the side of
not banning them. But when they say okay, let's take
that book out, that book has just been banned. So
it doesn't mean that a banned. That a book has
been banned, it doesn't mean it's been banned across the country,
although some some countries have like banned books and its entirety,
like the country's entirety. But in the US and in
(09:16):
the modern world, it usually means that somewhere in the
United States, there's a group of people, whether it's kids
in a school district or kids people who are served
by a public library, who don't have access to a
certain book because one person found it offensive and convinced
the librarian to to make the decision for everybody else
based on that person's objections. That's a banned book, Yeah,
(09:39):
person or persons. A lot of times it's a group
pointed together with like a list, even, and they'll rally
the troops and say, you know, come on out from
your your homes and let's get together and submit a list.
And the librarians, like you said, most times will say
no because they generally have the courts on their side
if it gets to that point. For the most part,
(10:01):
the courts like to defend the right, you know, the
First Amendment. But I mean, think about that pressure, especially
if you, like you are a school librarian and the
school board is telling you, like, hey, don't forget what
we you employ you, and we're telling you remove this book,
and the librarians like, no, ts, that's that's against the
(10:23):
First Amendment. Um, so should talk about some of the laws.
I think we should. Let's talk about Do you want
to talk about the history of it? Yeah? Um who
wrote this one? I think this was congered too, and
I don't think so. Oh yeah, it was a freelancer, Okay. Um,
you know, basically since the days of Socrates, they've been
trying to ban teachings of some sort. At the other um,
(10:45):
he was heavily scrutinized, and back then if you wanted
to ban something, he just burned the few copies of
it that existed and there was no problem. He was
made to drink hemlock for what he for what? T Yeah?
But yeah, I feel like if there's two copies of
in existence and you get both copies and you set
them on fire, and then what happened? What came along
(11:06):
well the printing press and all of a sudden you
had to officially try and ban a book because there
were too many to gather up and burn. And you
remember the Star Chamber starring Michael Douglas. Did you ever
watch that? They were the real Star Chamber? Did you?
Did you? There was a real okay, so the real
Star Chamber UM that was I think created in Stuart England.
(11:27):
Um Stewart era England. Man, I probably shouldn't even say that,
because I'm not sure. In England in the seventeenth century,
there was a group of judges that were in charge
of like they were like the elite judges. They were
the censor board. Basically was one of their roles, and
(11:48):
then Henry the Eighth came along and got rid of them,
but he started his own kind of censorship with licensing laws.
They basically said that the state had the opportunity to
censor things before they were even published. So that was
one of the earliest forms of straight up book banning,
book censorship. Good point, it happened a long time ago. Yeah.
(12:12):
Two Board of Education Island Trees School District v. Piko. Yeah,
that's a mouthful. Um. They said basically that you couldn't
remove library material just because like a school official doesn't
agree with the ideas. They said that the books on
the on their list were quote just plain filthy, and
(12:33):
some people said, now you were going to sue you
for that? Well, the Supreme Court said, so basically, it
has to be pervasively vulgar. I guess that's why they
use those words, because that's what they can actually ban
a book if who finds it that is there. I
think society basically well, for for the most part, um
(12:55):
as far as books go, for banning a book really
tough to do, as once it reaches the Supreme Court,
they're going to be like, no, it's a book put
it back. It's obscenity. That's not protected at all. Right, Well,
because the kicker there is the number three rule that
(13:17):
they decided, you know, should be used to determine if
something is I guess filthy, was it could contain no literary, artistic, political,
or scientific value. And that's the one where you know,
you can pretty much say claim any book has value
like that. That's how we have hardcore pornography. Still, I'm sorry,
so you can say this is art that's true. Um
(14:10):
So that that case, that two um Island Trees case
or Pico case, I don't know what they call it,
that was a really big deal because it took place
in a school library and um it basically the Supreme
Court said school libraries are special places. Schools are places
of inquiry, and so their repository of knowledge, meaning their library,
(14:34):
has special protection. Like we understand that you're worried about
the children's minds being corrupted, but you don't get to
decide that, like, this is information that's out there, and
as long as it's basically not like hardcore pornography, child pornography,
obscenity like it should it has every right to be
in there. Under the first first Amendment. It was a
(14:55):
big deal. It was a big deal. Uh. So was
I remember this one because I was on a newspaper
staff at the time and I got interviewed for the news.
Oh yeah, yeah, like the local news came out Hazelwood
School District v uh kur maya. Um. That was very
famously when newspaper. High school newspapers basically were said to
(15:18):
not have the same rights as like if you were
an adult running a newspaper, and it was not a
form of public expression, so schools could, uh, in the end,
kind of censor what was going in these things, at
least in like school curriculum. I thought it was in
the paper in the paper too. I'm sorry, I thought
you meant in these things meaning libraries. Yeah, no, no no, no,
(15:39):
in the in the but it was extended into classroom
curriculum too like that, which was a big deal. Yeah.
Did you read that article about Texas. Yeah, let's get
to that. You want to Yeah, okay, So, um, Texas
has this um very controversial textbook review committee that wields
a lot of power because textbook or Texas is the
(16:02):
biggest textbook buyer in the country, and so if you're
a textbook manufacturer and one state is ordering most of
your textbooks, You're just gonna print one and send it
to everybody. Yeah. It's basically Texas and California are the
two states that wield the most power because they spend
the most dough because they have the most school aged
(16:22):
kids basically, right, exactly, so they basically say what Texas
decides goes in their textbooks goes in the textbooks for
a lot of other states as well, not just Texas. Right. Yeah.
I looked at the expense of a textbook and I
think one of the manufacturers said something like several million
dollars can go into a like a major biology textbook
(16:42):
because of like the illustrations and everything that goes into it.
And they're like, we can't make one of these for
Texas and one for other states. It's just everyone's gonna
get Texas version of the truth. Exactly. So Texas has
this committee that is largely conservative that um starting and
I think two thousand nine, uh basically held hearings on
(17:05):
revisions that they wanted to see done to social studies curriculum.
These are elected people too, by the way, which is
important because apparently a lot of them can buy their
way right on that list. Okay, so social studies, you've
got history, sociology, economics, and um. A lot of the
stuff that they were adding in there were like, um,
(17:25):
I guess kind of slanted everything toward a little more
towards the idea that the founders of the United States
were Christian. Um, that the the they One of the
things they wanted to get in there was not just
Martin Luther King's non violent civil rights protests, but the
Black Panthers violent civil rights protests were another one. Um.
(17:46):
And if you're a conservative, you you're like, well, okay,
I I agree with a lot of what these people
are saying. The problem is is what they were saying
was that there's a liberal slant to ecademy and that
they were taking it upon themselves to correct that by
putting a conservative slant. Yeah. One of the other amendments
(18:08):
was to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures
who inspired revolutions of the late eighteenth century in nineteenth century,
and they said let's replace him with Thomas Akenis and
John Calvin instead. Another one in economics, um, they wanted
to add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, champions of
(18:29):
the free market economic theory. To the list of economist
studies we talked about, well, Milton Friedman in one where
basically he used Chile as a laboratory for UM reagan
Omics before Reagan was president, the trickle down economic Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I remember that. UM and then one of the ones
that was shot down by Democrat Mavis Knight, wanted to
(18:50):
introduce an amendment requiring students study the reasons for the
founding Fathers protecting a religious freedom by not saying one
religion is good above all else. And that was actually
struck down. They said, you can't put that in this book. Right,
she was a Democrat who introduced it. Yeah, it was public.
The Conservatives said no, Well they you know, basically vote
(19:12):
along party lines. So the vote was tend to four
or whatever it is. So it was a big deal,
like it had. It was one of those things that
kind of went under reported and underestimated. But there's a
really good documentary out there that came out and I
think two thousand nine, the Revisionaries UM and I think
(19:32):
it's up on Netflix streaming right now. It is Scott
Thurman and uh al I saw it was a trailer,
but it looked pretty good, and I mean it was
a big deal. It's not just like some people in
Texas want to change some textbooks. It's like has national implications, right,
It's an info war basically, And that's what book banning
is based on. In a lot of ways as well.
It's like if you can remove a different viewpoint, especially
(19:56):
when when it's being presented to kids, and you can
keep that viewpoint from taking from German eating in there
and they're emerging mind or worldview absolutely, and so books
like UM, Daddy's New Roommate gets banned. Yeah, about a
boy whose dad has a new boyfriend. Now he's a
(20:18):
divorced dad and his new roommate moves in as gay
and UM Sarah Palin herself asked for that to be
removed from the library when she was UM the mayor
of Wasilla, Alaska. Oh yeah, I remember that. And that
guy came out and said that woman is my mortal enemy.
Really and thanks for the press. That's what he should
(20:38):
have said to UH. In the meantime, in Texas, UM
Mary Helen Barlanga UM has tried repeatedly to get Latino
figures um included in textbooks as role models for the
large Hispanic population in Texas, and she's been repeatedly denied,
to the point where in two thousand ten she stopped
(20:58):
out of a meeting saying, they can't just pretend this
is white America and that we don't exist. These aren't experts,
these aren't historians. They're just rewriting history. So pretty hard words. Yeah,
things job. Do you want to hear some other challenged authors,
(21:45):
Let's man, because there's there's challenges all over the place,
apparently Judy Bloom of course, Robert Cormier or Cormier? Uh,
did you ever read I Am the Cheese when you're
growing up? Nope? Or The Chocolate War. I think I
read that one Great books band many times. J. K. Rowling,
she is uh, like I said, she is, I guess
(22:06):
of the devil because a lot of people have a
problem with the Harry Potter books. Um, Katherine Patterson Bridge
to Terri Bethia, I'm Stephen King may Angelou can't have
any of that. Yeah. The Alabama State Textbook Committee said that, um,
I know why the Cage Bird Sings encourages bitterness toward
white people. R. L. Stein who was sort of like
(22:30):
a Stephen King for kids. Yeah, goose Bumps. Yeah, and uh,
I think I actually worked on one of his little
TV shows, The Nightmare Room was a nightmare room, I
think so, uh yeah, back in the day. And John Steinbeck,
of course, yeah, in nine of Mice and Men was
banned in Chattanooga because Steinbeck was well known for his
(22:51):
anti business attitude. Um. And then Alvin Schwartz was number
one and hero one of my favorite sets of books,
scary stories to tell him the Dark. I never heard
of this. Oh man. They were scary with the most
ghastly illustrations you've ever seen. They're awesome. And those bands
because they're scary, and I guess so I was probably
(23:11):
satanic to um. So we were talking about how if
if a book is challenged, UM, it's probably if it
gets to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court is probably gonna
rule in favor of the librarian who said no. Um.
But that's that's not the case with obscenity, like obscene
(23:32):
literature like it is specifically excluded in US case law
from First Amendment protection. And that's kind of emerged over
the years, um, starting in eighteen seventy three with the
Comstock laws. It basically said like you can't sell obscene
literature in interstate commerce, right, and then people are like, okay,
(23:57):
well then we we won't or don't enforce or whatever,
and it just kind of went went enforced or unchallenged
for like three quarters of a century. And then in
the fifties you had um Roth versus the United States,
where all of a sudden, we're like, wait, we need
to start explaining what obscenity is because you can't just
(24:18):
say that's just whatever. That's what they started as though,
Like in the fifties they basically said obscenity pornography basically
is what that means um has utterly or is utterly
without um social value. That was a big quote, so
that basically was a mark against anybody who's pro obscenity, right.
(24:42):
And then in the seventies there was one called Miller
versus California, and this guy basically sent out a mass
mailer chuck of an advertisement for his adult magazines. So
everybody got him old people, kids, housewives, business meant everybody
into their mail that they opened it up and like
there's like, basically obscene advertising, and so California arrested the
(25:08):
guy and it went to trial, and the Supreme Court said, okay, um, yes,
obscenities not protected, but we need to say what obscenity is.
And they came up with this three point test called
the Miller tests, which is has that one problem you
were talking about her? Yeah. The third one is no
no artistic merit basically literary, political, or scientific value. Which
(25:31):
it's probably the terms that they nailed this guy for. Yeah.
You know, if it was just a flyer of like
pornographic ads, he couldn't really say no, this is literature,
like check these out. Um. The other two were involved
patently offensive sexual conducts or appeal to prurient interest. When
taken as a whole, there it is. That's what connected
(25:52):
a sexuality curient is that it? Yeah, um, but the
big point with those, chuck, is that, um, the the
prurient interest is local, so basically like if everybody in
your town would be offended by this, then that's the
local judgment that's for that standard. But then the scientific
artistic literary standard is national, so like if your town
(26:16):
thinks it's science, but your town is a note as
talking about that's not a standard, right, So that's obscenity,
that's subscendity. But the good thing is it's like, if
you are trying to um ban something as obscene, the
burden of proof is on you to prove these three
This thing passes all three points of the Miller type,
that's true, and that's a tough, tough burden to get
(26:36):
passed into court. Is tough. I'm surprised that more book
banning fans aren't trying to infiltrate the library community, you
know what I'm saying. I think they do constantly. Librarians. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, if that's where the power is,
I think the librarians like really um like the library industries. Yeah,
(27:00):
it's very powerful, and like if they find out that
you're you're a wolf in sheep's clothing, they'll kill you. Boy,
have you ever talked to librarians. Chris Poulette here is
a librarian. They're really passionate, passionate people. It's it's it's
almost like a public service in a way. Yeah, because
I'm sure they don't make a lot of dough and
they just all really believe in knowledge and protecting, protecting freedoms. Yeah,
(27:23):
it's pretty cool. Yeah, librarians. Yeah, could give your local
librarian a pat on the back today. Yeah, give him
a hug. Ask him first and then give him a hug.
And if they say no, don't give him a hug, right,
just shake their hand and politely not Yeah, maybe a
Curtesy and um, that's great, Chuck, I like the courtesy.
Al Right, Well, if you want to learn more about
banned books, we suggest you go to the a l
(27:45):
A site. Uh it's I believe a la dot com.
And then you can also write in banned books in
the search bar at how stuff works dot com and
it's going to bring up this, uh, really great article. Finally,
it's time for a listener Matt Okay, Josh, I'm gonna
call this disco fever from Diane in Kentucky. Hey, guys,
(28:09):
your disco episode brought back fond memories for me. In
the summer of nine, I was in my early twenties
and I've just made it from the Sticks to the
big city, New York City. It's a big city. I
had very little money, the city's infrastructure was crumbling. Then
this kind of what we pointed out, you know, the
bad economy, and I was separated from my boyfriend by
a continent, a bigger obstacle in those days before cell phones,
(28:32):
in the internet and reasonable airfairs. Like that was back
when a long distance relationship was like serious. You know,
um remember those days, like is it long distance? Don't
talk too long? It's long distance? Yeah, Now it's like what, Yeah,
I forgot about that, um ten, ten to twenty or whatever,
Like certain times a day we're cheaper or something. No,
there's like a number you could dial out, like real
(28:55):
cheap long distance, remember that, I think is one. I
was questioning the decisions I had made in my life,
and it was pretty much a struggle for me. But
I had disco. I would go with a guy friend
to a place on Third Avenue that was more or
less the equivalent of an Applebee's with disco music and
a dance floor complete with disco ball. It certainly wasn't
(29:16):
what you would call a discothequer or a cool played
by any stretch of the imagination. But she was broke
and we could order the cheapest thing on the menu
and spend a whole night dancing. I was completely oblivious
to any social or cultural implications of the music, but
just knew that it was cheap entertainment and so much fun. Yes,
the lyrics were silly and the beat was rather unimaginative,
(29:38):
but coming off the era of Vietnam, Watergate and a
plethora of social upheavals, that was the great part of
the appeal. Dancing to disco and laughing at the lyrics
was play. It was easy to learn the moves and
much for her, not for me. Uh, and much more
fun than the mindless dancing um which attended rock music,
(29:58):
which I like to listen to. But let's face at
dancing to rock music it's pretty boring, pretty fast. I
don't know if I thought it was the best disco song,
but one of the most fun and exhilarating and inanely
silly for me was Donna Summers MacArthur Park. Still brings
a smile to my face just thinking about it. I
didn't know Donna Summers, did MacArthur Park. I had listen
(30:18):
to that. Then. That was Diane Rally in Louisville, Kentucky.
Huh So glad we could bring back some good memories
there for you. Yeah, thanks a lot, Diane and Salston
and we heard from a lot of people who are
like guys, you're saying that, Um, if I hate discoats
because I'm homophobic, don't be stupid. No, we didn't say
that specifically. We said, if you hate disco outright with
(30:39):
a burning passion, but for no real reason, you can't
really tell why it's getting to you like this, maybe
it's time to step back in examine it. Sure. We
also said that there's plenty room for people who just
don't like disco, just don't like the music, and it
doesn't mean you're hobopholic, so of course, lighten up and
listen more clearly. Um, if you want to get in
touch with me and Chuck, you can tweet, tweet to us,
(31:01):
twit um to s y s K podcast. You can
also join us on Facebook dot com slash Stuff you
Should Know. You can also read us the Riot Act
via via email, uh tow stuff podcast at how stuff
Works dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production
of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for
(31:23):
my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H
Stuff You Should Know News
Hosts And Creators
Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
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