August 8, 2024 • 41 mins
Many of us have experienced the odd sensation that we shouldn’t trust ourselves not to simply jump from a high place for no reason. Some even feel an urge. Philosophers and psychologists have tried to make sense of this senseless urge for centuries now.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Ben's here too, and that makes this a
good old rousing edition of Stuff you Should Know. Philosophy
Now edition.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I mean, I apologize to Josh off here. I
might as well say it now. I may be a
little rough in this one because my brain breaks a
little bit when we have these philosophy subjects. And even
though I made an A and the only philosophy class
I took in college, which I've said before, huh, it's
only because I was so frustrated by it. I worked
(00:46):
really really hard to try and understand it and ended
up getting an A. But it breaks my brain a
lot of times.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh now, okay, boy, you didn't end that sentence under
normal circumstance. No, but good for you. Power for powering
through that that uh, that class and not just being like, well,
I guess I'll take a zero in this one again.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Or drop it in that first week. I did a
lot of that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I did that once in astronomy. I was like, wait,
why are you using like the Greek symbol for epsilon
and sigma in this like I thought we were going
to talk about Mars and stuff and no, right, I
got rid of that really quick.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, good, good job.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
All right, So I kind of I think have a
bit of a grasp on the the philosophy of it.
What I had trouble with with some of the studies,
like the actual research on it. So we'll just muddle through.
It will be fun. Sometimes those are our most enjoyable episodes.
Sometimes there are worst. Let's find out which way this
one goes.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, what we're talking talking about is something we've talked
about on the show before. I wish I could remember
which episode, but we've definitely talked about the call of
the void what what the French call lapel do or
high place phenomenon, And that is the idea that and
it's not just the desire to maybe hurl your yourself
(02:11):
off the top of a building if you're standing, or
a bridge, if you're standing atop of high structure. Yeah,
that's the one we're going to concentrate on. But it
can also mean and I know this is what we
talked about before, because I talked about like grabbing the
cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic, right that very
amazing scene from Christopher Walking and Annie Hall where he's
(02:35):
talking about, you know, swerving into oncoming traffic is so good,
and they smash cut, you know, to him driving Woody
and Annie home. It's just one of the great movie jokes.
But you know, that's the idea, is this weird urge?
I know it was an episode of Louis as well,
and I'm trying to think if I could think of
any more canceled filmmakers.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Right exactly. He did a short on it once.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know, it was in both of those things, And yeah,
it's this weird desire to be like standing at top
of a tall structure and be like, I could just
jump right now and see what's out there.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, so that's a I think that's the most common
phenomenon of the call of the void, just it occurring
to you that you could do this. It can get worse, though, too,
because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them,
they've experienced something akin to an urge, so much so
that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the
(03:30):
edge that they might like go back into whatever stairwell
they just came out of because they don't want to
accidentally or inadvertently. They don't trust themselves not to follow
that urge. That's when it gets really scary. And if
you think about it, we humans have a real tendency
towards self preservation, like we fight to live, sometimes to
(03:51):
degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know. So that makes
the call of the void completely nonsensical. It makes zero
sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just
end it all for no reason, just because it's there,
just because there's a huge void there, jumping into it
because it occurred to you. So the fact that this
(04:12):
is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating. And so
psychologists have gotten into it. Philosophers have gotten into it,
like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it. It's a
thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's
a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it, and
(04:33):
I don't know if we ever will. And for my money,
I don't really want to what understand it. Yes, because
I throw I cast my lot with the philosophers. I
think kerker Garden start nailed it, but it's still I mean,
you don't prove things with philosophy it's just like, what about.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
This, Yeah, yeah, I mean we'll get to statistics and
how they align with you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later,
probably in the last part, but just among the two
of us. I know, I know I said this before
with when we talked about it before, but I have
(05:11):
felt the call of the void many many times. And
for me, it's not I could just end it all,
but it's more like, uh, it's hard to And maybe
that's one of the frustrating things. It's really hard to
explain what's going through my head. It's it's sort of
like no one can stop me from doing this, and
(05:31):
I could, I could know what that feels like to fall.
Part of it is I had a very tragically had
a friend fall off a building to his death, and
oh yeah, so there there's a little bit of that,
like I would want to know what Aaron felt like
and like how scary that was as a as an
(05:52):
empathetic thing. So there's a lot of things in my head.
None of that explains why I want to grab the
cops because I was about to ask that I've never
really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but
I just I don't know, it's really fascinating to have
these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know,
you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything
(06:12):
like that.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, so you just said a mouthful. Essentially, the call
of the void can be can come from it can
come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought
in a lot of situations. Other Times it can be
triggered by the situation, like you're not going to think
about driving into oncoming traffic while you're you know, in
your chemistry class, Like it's while you're driving, right, So
there's some that are triggered by circumstances. And then you
(06:36):
also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by
the idea you're even having this thought. It's just totally out.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Of character for you.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So you put all that together, you have what essentially
is the call of the void. And I say we
go up to the tee and put the little baseball
or whiffle ball on top of the tee and knock
it out of the park. With the philosophers first, all.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Right, I will say this that the carecer guard stuff
really spoke to me me too. We're talking about Danish
philosopher Surin, I guess I don't know what the null
sign means.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So it's like an umlaut okay, so Surin, basically, I guess.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
He talked about this idea that the callovoid call of
the void illustrates anxiety and in his case, and this
is the part that really spoke to me. He argued that,
and I think he's dead right. Actually, is that fear
is when outside forces are scaring you something that could
harm you from the outside. Anxiety is when that's turned
(07:37):
inward and that's emerging from your The threat is coming
from within their inside the house basically, and that house
is your brain. So the freedom to the freedom of
choice in life to move about the world, just to
choose what you do from moment to moment, you're constantly
making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to
do was. So when an anxiety can come from what
(08:00):
he called the dizziness of freedom, of that freedom specifically.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, exactly, And just the basis of anxiety is having
those choices, not knowing what's right, like you said, and
that because our lives are filled from moment to moment
with making a choice, not making a choice, which stills
a choice, just as Gedty Lee that, of course it's
going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition.
It's almost the basis of the human condition, is what
(08:25):
he was saying. So he kind of used that, or
used the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that,
essentially saying that you when you're up there on a precipice,
you're aware that you have the choice to just throw
yourself over, and just realizing that that is a choice
(08:45):
of that you can make right then, like you said,
no one's going to stop you having that freedom. Is
it's too much we like to think that, you know,
we don't have choices that we have metal, we have
a self preservation drive, we have all this stuff that
would prevent us from even ever considering that. And yet
whenever we experience the call of the void, it is
(09:07):
by definition experience experiencing that urge, like the realization that
we can choose that. And that's what kure Kaguard kind
of kicked the whole thing off with, I think in
the eighteen fifties. When you use that to illustrate anxiety
in humans.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Can we have a quick side chat?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, what do they call them?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Not diversions tangents.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, one of our tangents about rush Okay, did
you hear me very quickly say Neil Pert, No, I didn't,
you said Getty Lee. Okay, Well Neil Pert wrote that.
Oh so I just quickly pointed that out. But that's
not what I was trying to point out. Okay, on
that record, and I remember this specifically. My brother and
I were listening to and looking over that LP which
(09:51):
you do.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
What is that spirit of radio?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, on the record is the lyric and if you
choose not to decide, Well, first of all, if you're
not a rushman. The lyric that they recorded was, if
you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I feel like you have to say it like Geddy
Lee still out made a choice beautiful.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Uh So they recorded it like that. Neil Purt was
their lyricist. But on the record, my brother and I
notice it says if you choose not to decide, you
cannot have made a choice.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Oh well, they got that wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
They it was like on the album and he my
brother looked at me and laughed and like mimicked to
Gedty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil like, well,
Neil Purt wasn't looking.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And that is just always stood out to me.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Did Neil part write most of their lyrics or was it.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Just yeah, he was their lyricists.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I didn't know that. Okay, wasn't that crazy, But yeah,
he got that wrong big time.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Uh So back to it from Kuerker Guard, along those
same lines you talked about, is it Start.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's what I've always said, Yeah, he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Jean Jean Paul SARTs another philosopher, he talked about that
as the vertigo of possibility, basically the same idea as Carekerguard,
of like a literal dizziness of possibilities, and he kind
of leaned more into the you know, the freedom about
questions of our human experience, and he went down a
(11:22):
different road than Carekerguard ultimately did. But they both sort
of referred to it as a literal dizziness.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, for sure, because a lot of people do experience
something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a
high place, even if they're not afraid lights.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Right, Oh, I for sure do. Yeah, So it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Does make sense that they would both use that. But
Start was definitely doing a big yes a and to carecreguard,
and I think he even calls out Careguard in the
section of being a nothingness. Right, But his whole jam
that he kind of took, the point that he took
it to was not only are you realizing, like you
have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your
(11:58):
future self has that same freedom of choice. And you,
the one who's making this choice right now not to
leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero
control over whether you in the future future you is
going to make that same choice or not. And that
is a reason to be terrified of being alive. Essentially,
(12:19):
is what Sart said.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Right, Yeah, I mean not quite multiverse stuff, but it's
sort of along the same lines, like almost future future
multiverse maybe.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, But what he was saying also is a lot
like kerky Guard, Like life is made up of choices
moment to moment to moment, And his whole thing is like,
there's no solid self, there's no you that exists. You know,
when you're born or even after you develop a little bit,
to the time you die, you are constantly you have
to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the
(12:52):
same decisions over and over again, and if you don't
have the same experience, say like terror when you're up
on a precipice and decide not to jump, If the
next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you
feel like, what's it like to fly, you might make
the same decision, even though it's out of character with
how you were before that. The self is that fluid essentially,
(13:13):
is what he was saying.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, and he sort of related that to gambling or
the gambler who you know, like an addictive gambler who
quits gambling and you know, let's say years later they
walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the
gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst
thing that ever happened to me, the reaction is, well,
(13:36):
that was sort of a memory of a feeling that
I had, and in order to get back that true
feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do
that by doing it again.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Sort of like a not quite like rose colored glasses.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling
about an X.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Before years later, where you're like.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I was so bad about that, should I give
them a call? When in fact it was a terrible
situation and like to give them the call and try.
I mean, John Cusack made a whole movie about it
to go back to and revisit, like the ex girlfriends,
And it's just constantly reminded, like the Gambler would be of, like, no,
this was a bad idea twenty years ago, it's not
(14:17):
a good idea now still.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Right, And the same thing holds you for like smoking
or something like that, Like when you decided to quit
smoking quick gambling, break up, Like you're in a certain
experience right then that you don't necessarily feel or experience
a year later, so you have to remind yourself like
to make that same decision again. Your future self could
make a different decision than you did right then and
(14:40):
you have no control over it. I know.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Pretty awesome, Right, Should we break or should we talk
about Gary Cox?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick, because I like
this guy's jib.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The cint of his jib. He's a British philosopher. We
can pronounce his name, so that's a plus. And he
looks at more as an existentialist kind of thing, where
we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing,
but they're basically just all an illusion. It's things that
we make up to fool ourselves into thinking we have
(15:16):
an instinct for self preservation.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, and he's saying that. What Kierka Garden Sart are
both saying is essentially that we when we experience the
call of the void, that what's called bad faith as
far as existentialists are concerned. Anytime we delude ourselves, it's
a bad faith illusion essentially, that all of those are
just essentially us deluding ourselves, and it's laid bare by
(15:41):
the call of the void. Like, the only reason you're
not jumping right now is not because you have this
self preservation instinct, is not because you don't want to
do that to your family or anything like that. It's
because you are choosing right then not to jump. That's it.
It's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then.
And that scares the but Jesus out of anybody who
(16:01):
has a brain in their head when they experience the
call the void, especially when it's accompanied by the urge
to jump, not just the thought of jumping.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, so shall we break now.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yes, look at that with the ball, go, we knocked
it out of the park.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
We'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts
that people are having right after this.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with
a confession. I've been talking a lot of macho talk
about te balls and hitting it out of the park.
I used to strike out at T ball pretty often,
and they give you a lot more than just three
strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like
maybe seven eight, sometimes depending on the coach, and I
(17:08):
would still strike out and it happened more than once.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, what was happening there?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
What's happening there is? I was a terrible T ball player.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I didn't play T ball, so you know I didn't
have that experience.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
But you know what t ball is, right.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, you set a ball on a tee, it's not moving,
not going anywhere, and you've got a baseball bat in
your hand.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah. I thought i'd feel better after admitting that, I
feel much worse.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Actually, well, you've told me that before, so I was
pre I felt bad for you back then.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Have I talked about it on the podcast or was
in private?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
No, I was on the show, but that's okay. It
was years ago, Okay, Yeah, we've been doing this for
sixteen years. That's gonna happen what.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
We promised.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Talk about intrusive thoughts and intrusive thought is defined base
as a thought that is not in character for you,
that you're thinking it. It's pretty bothersome and it's a
hard thing for you to control, and if you start
really digging in and worrying about it and looking for
(18:14):
meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to
someone's life.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, they're really a problem for people who have clinical
obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean,
intrusive thoughts can affect anybody. You don't have to have OCD.
The problem that a companies OCD is that people will
try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought.
And the classic example is being a germa feeling like
your hands are dirty, so you go wash your hands.
(18:46):
By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that
your hands are dirty, you have germs on your hands,
and you alleviate that by washing your hands. Well, if
you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your
hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're gonna spend a
lot of your time washing your hands, and it's going
to actually impact your life. That's a classic example of
(19:06):
somebody suffering from OCD. But if you take away the
you know, washing your hands to alleviate that stress from
the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody,
this thought that kind of comes out of nowhere. It's
often very, very troubling. There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions,
which is, you know, I could pick up that axe
(19:29):
and kill my whole family right now. And then you're like,
wait a minute, why am I thinking that? And you
feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what
loving you know, husband, wife, child, would ever think of
something like that. And you start to go down that
road and you're too afraid to even bring it up
to anybody. You'll want to be like, hey, I just
thought of killing all of you guys with an axe.
(19:49):
Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it
to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes.
And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thought that
can only be broken by essentially saying that was an
intrusive thought. I accept as an intrusive thought. I don't
actually want to kill my family with an axe. And
this kind of thing happens to everybody.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, and you know, Lyvia pointed out she did a
great job with the school, by the way.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
She knocked the cheek all out of the part she did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Lyvia pointed out that this has led to a lot
of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past,
with like the court system and like having children taken
away or something. Because the old idea, as far as
psychiatry is concerned or psycho analysis is concerned, was if
you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your
(20:44):
unconscious desire. So if you have a thought about, you know,
drowning your children, and then all of a sudden, you're
going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god,
how could I think that? And what is that all about?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And then you're just really drilling down into that because
you're horrified by it. You have now an analyst saying, oh, well,
that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or, ladies and
gentlemen of the jury. And so you get your children
taken away, and now they're saying like that's not true
at all, Like it's not an unconscious desire. It's someone
who's horrified by these thoughts that are obsessing about them
(21:20):
because they're horrified about it exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And I think the very fact that you're horrified by
it shows you just how far you are from actually
committing that act. So, yeah, the idea that people used
to get their children it happened at least twice. I
could find two cases that happened fairly recently where mothers
in both cases confided in either their psychiatrist or their obgyn,
(21:44):
who both just turned around and called child protective Services
or the cops, you know. And just the idea that
they had it so backwards and that this happens everybody,
but they lost their kids because they sought help for it.
That's just that's terrible. So I'm glad we figured out
that that's not the case, and the fact that it
can be treated pretty easily. You can even self treat
(22:06):
if you learn the steps to identifying an intrusive thought.
Saying it to yourself is just an intrusive thought. Like
I said, you don't want to do this, and that
this happens to everybody. If it's really bad and you
feel like you can't self treat, there are treatments you
can go seek that are also very effective. One of
them is exposure and response prevention. And one of the
(22:27):
examples I've seen is if you think about killing your
family with a butcher knife, your therapist will come to
your house and give you the butcher knife and sit
you on the couch next to your family and basically
be like, do you really want to kill your family,
because now's your time to do it if you want.
And I've seen that they actually will have say like
(22:49):
a father look at their son and be like, please
don't kill me son as part of this therapy. And
it works because you see firsthand like you could do
it right then, and you're just you don't want to,
You're not going, you're not moved to doing that. You
have control over your behavior, and you see it firsthand
right there, and that tends to actually help quite a bit.
(23:10):
And so the fact that that helps and you can
self treat shows that it is just a weird fluke
of human psychology and that it happens to everybody, including
really violent, terrible stuff that you can think about. Everyone
happens to everyone.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, And if we uncomfortably giggled during that part, it's
not because we don't think that that must be the
hardest thing in the world would be to sit down
and have a therapy session like that right with your family. Like,
I can't even imagine what that's like to sit down
and have to do something like that, so or what
it costs.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, oh, I got a snort for that one.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Oh wow, you sure did. I don't do that much.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I guess we should talk about the studies. And when
I say study, I mean studies kind of one too.
There haven't been a ton of them. Lyvia dug up
a couple in twenty eleven, there was a psychologist named
Jennifer Haymes from Florida State. Along with her colleagues are
at Florida State. They're the people who coin the HPP
(24:17):
term high Places phenomenon. And they asked four hundred and
thirty one FSU students.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I guess, yeah, go fighting elione, I no, come.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
On, seminoles, you know that. Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
They asked four hundred and thirty one of their students
about their experiences with high place phenomenon. More than thirty
percent had experience that urged to jump, and among those
who had never experienced suicidal ideation, because you know, when
they study something like this, they're trying to separate those
things out of just the call of the void and
someone who actually has thought about taking their own lives.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, because Freud led everybody down a blind alley by
basically saying, oh, actually, this this is our innate drive
to want to kill ourselves. That's really at play, And
it turned out it's just not true at all.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, So among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation,
there were still seventeen percent who had the urge to
jump at least one time.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
And I believe.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Half of the people who had suicidal feelings said the same.
It was about the same number.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Right, And the researchers are like, this not quite track, Like,
let's reframe the question. And they asked the same people,
have you ever thought about jumping from a bridge or
a building? And they're like, oh, yeah, I've thought about
that for sure. That's what I'm saying. There's a difference
between just being up there and thinking like what would
happen if I did this the thought pops in your head, right,
(25:44):
or the urge where you have to push yourself away
from the balcony. Those are two slightly separate experiences, and
the just the thought popping in people's heads seemed as
to be the more common one. So when they reframed
the question like that seventy four percent of people who
had gone through suicidal ideation said yeah, I've done that.
(26:04):
Forty three percent of non suicidal ideators just say the
general population said that that happened to them. So almost
half of people walking around are like said like, yeah,
it's occurred to me to throw myself off the top
of a tall building. One I've been up there. And
even then Hames and her colleagues were like, I still
think that's a little small. And they've come up with
(26:26):
little ways to essentially say, like, some people are forgetting
that this actually happened to them.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, and mine is always a thought. It's never a
true urge. But they you know, after this study, one
of the things that they talked about was sort of
like what you said with Freud, where they said, like, no,
this is not a manifestation of the death drive, of
the urge to take your own life, And they looked
at actual, you know, real cases of suicide. They looked
(26:54):
at previous research and all the data, and their argument was,
you know, when someone takes their own life, it's rarely
a truly truly impulsive act, right. It's usually something that
has happened over time, and it's in a big sort
of accumulation of these ideations. And while the exact moment
(27:17):
may have some impulsivity to it, it's rarely just a
completely impulsive.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Act, right. And usually it's characterized by resolution more than
impulsiveness too, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
If the person is this is something I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Do, yes, exactly. So they basically said, Okay, Freud was
totally wrong, but still we think that some people don't
really remember that this happened. We think that more people
than say, forty three percent of the population have experienced this.
And one of the explanations they had was that one
(27:51):
thing we left out. They've found a huge correlation between
people who experience anxiety and people who have experienced the
high place phenomenon or the call of the void. Right.
And so what Hames and her colleague said was, all right,
what we think happened is when you're anxious. When you're
an anxious person, you're more attuned to like internal signals yea,
(28:12):
and so you are experiencing those like more acutely, like
all the symptoms associated with it, like just being nervous
and just having like your stomach kind of topsy turvy,
Like those symptoms stand out to you more. And so
those people remember having experienced to call the void more,
so they're more likely to report it. And that everybody,
(28:34):
most people probably experience this. It's just some people it
just so fleeting or whatever to them that they don't
remember it later on. I find that questionable, but that's
kind of how they explained it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, and they also sort of wrap their heads around
the idea that the call of the void is as.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
A survival instinct.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It's kind of the opposite of what people, especially Freud,
had previously thought of it, is that it reflects a
survival instinct that we have to, you know, sort of
think about that in terms of framing it of how
they are appreciating being alive and not doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah. So the scientific explanation O Koran, which means current,
is that when you're up there on a tall building
and you're looking over the edge or something like that,
your innate instinct, like say your lizard brain is like
jump back jack, and so it sends a fear signal,
and your rational brain, which is a little bit slower,
(29:36):
catches up and is like, hey, why am I feeling fear?
There's no danger here whatsoever. There's like a sturdy railing
and I've got like a solid floor beneath my feet.
I guess I'm afraid, or I guess I got a
fear signal because I had the urge to jump, And
that that's the call of the void. That it's a
miscommunication or misunderstanding of your physiology and your rational mind essentially,
(30:01):
and that that's what the called void is. I guess.
I mean that's certainly certainly jibes to a certain extent,
but I don't it still doesn't quite stand out to me,
like like carecer guards and SARTs explanations, Like I think
they just completely nailed it, I like like five whiffle
(30:22):
balls at once out of the park.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean they did the study and they had
data and stuff, but then there's a lot of just
philosophical extrapolation, right that you may not fully be on
board with. Yeah, there was another study, I think maybe
only the other the only other study I couldn't find
any other ones. No, huh, Tobias Ticeman and his other
(30:47):
coworkers there at ruher Univastett Boucham, this is in Germany.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
That's the fighting ruh jers.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
In twenty twenty, and they looked at a couple of
different samples of two hundred and seventy six people who
did an online survey, about half of them had experienced
suicidal ideation at some point. And then ninety four patients
who were being treated for flight phobia, like you know,
fear of flying in a plane, which used to have
pretty solidly but seemed to have gotten over pretty well.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I did you know you.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Don't cover your head with a blanket anymore when you fly,
which is great.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
No, it is, it's very nice, because that was tortuous.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And along the lines of the Ham study, eighty percent
of the people who had experienced suicidal ideation had experienced HPP.
Forty five percent of those experienced HPP who hadn't experienced
or who hadn't gone through suicidal ideas.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, it's almost like exactly the same numbers, which is crazy.
And then it's crazy who was that it was supposed
to be walking but it's that was so bad. I'm
going to say, Colonel Sanders.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
No no, no, no no. I got walking after you said it, so,
just like every great impression.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
After I explained it. So, Tobias Tiesman, is that how
you pronounced his name earlier?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think it's Tysman. I think it's the second letter
for Germany.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Okay, Tobias Ticsman at all. The same study also used
a different group, looked at a different group people who
suffer from clinical fear of heights acrophobia, and they found
that only forty five percent of them had ever experienced
high place phenomenon, which is basically tracking exactly with the
(32:30):
general population. So that shows that it really is not
it doesn't stem from a fear of heights, even though
there's other people that say that's exactly what it stems from.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And so then they the people that they were reporting
to and getting their funding from, said so, what'd you
learn about the fear of flying? And they said nothing, right.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Sorry, exactly, And Delta was like, man, yeah, you got
to stop funding these terrible studies.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Have you heard of this call of avoid thing? They're like,
oh jeez, we're only the second study.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
So right, we'll get it someday, I say, we take
our second break and then come back and do more speculating.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
All right, so Lyvia dug up some more, some more speculation,
(33:38):
which is what she called this section.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Actually what did she call this article? It was great.
I don't have my title page.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
The Call of the Void. Don't pick it up?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, I promised Lyvia, We're going to use that as
the actual title one day.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Is it going to be this one?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think this might be. This might be a yeah,
that's a good one.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And I added in it it's don't pick.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Up, don't pick up, yeah, which is even funnier. Actually
for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
There's a psychology professor from Britain, or researcher rather, named
Paul Salkovski who basically said, the thoughts of doing these,
you know, inappropriate things or dangerous things like the Call
of the Void are a result of our problem solving
process within the brain. So our subconscious just throwing something
(34:25):
out there, and then our rational brain getting an opportunity
to say, like, no, that's of course I'm not going
to jump off or jump off a bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a terrible idea. And then your unconscious is like,
but you could.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, I'm down with that one. I'm not down with
that one.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Rather, Okay, I got one. So and I guess when
we're going back and forth like this, everybody should just
imagine us like we're going to break off and now
like you've backed off, like you did a little dance
to back out, and now I did a little dance
to back in or jump in.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Okay, So cardboards on the Pavement.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
There's a really great article and Nautilus about this too.
I was a researcher named Adam Anderson who as a
cognitive neuroscientist at Cornell. I like this guy's idea. He
basically says that when we're on a tall building, we're
so just not designed to experience heights that it's not
(35:16):
exactly new. I mean, cliffs have been around for a
long time, but our experience of being high up is
far more frequent than it ever was in the past,
just even a few hundred years ago. Right, So when
we're up there, that lizard brain again is like, oh,
we're in danger. We're in danger, and that same lizard
brain says, let's get to safety as soon as possible. Hey,
(35:37):
there's the ground, it's safe to be on the ground.
Let's just jump and be on the ground. And luckily
our rational brain catches up in time and is like, no,
I get what you're saying, Like, yes, this is kind
of dangerous, but jumping to the ground is a really
terrible idea, and we're not going to do that. But
that that is the call of the void, that that's
what gives us that urge to jump. It's our dumb,
(35:59):
dumb on content his mind's seeking safety.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah, that's interesting, I think.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Okay, you jumping in.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, I'll jump in. Okay, I'll pop in lock.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Even though we said that it's not related to acrophobia,
there are people who think it is. There's an Oxford
psychologist named Daniel Freeman who said, no, it actually is
part of the trifecta of what you might experience if
you have a fear of heights, fear of falling, fear
that whatever you're on the bridge or whatever will collapse
(36:30):
beneath you, and then the third one, which is a
fear of jumping.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
So he lumps it.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
In there as part of the trio of things that
what he thinks make up acrophobia.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Or the fear of jumping part of it. He's saying, like,
is the call of the void or triggered by it?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think, yeah, yeah, that's the call of the void.
But he thinks it is a form of acrophobia.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Right exactly. I don't know. I didn't see much support
for his but nah, yeah, there's a neuroscientists too, apparently
as a real pedant, because psychologists have been seeking to
basically discredit Freud's idea that the call of the void
is actually a manifestation of our urge to destroy ourselves,
(37:13):
you know, wrought large or writ large, right, And they
found like, no, that's not true. And Emil gabrielle Bruno,
who again as a neuroscientist, who was like, actually, there's
a there's a condition where you can actually have some
sort of pre funnel cortex damage and you'll violate social
(37:34):
norms left and right. They that person may actually follow
the urge of the call of the void. It could
actually result in somebody jumping, and everybody stopped inviting Emil
Gabriel Bruno to their conferences.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, I'm with everybody there. Yeah, I don't need somebody
pointing that out. All kinds of terrible things can happen
when you have a damage to your.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Exactly do you want to end with Judith dan Koff, Yeah,
I'm going to sit down and let you take it home.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Judith Dankoff as a novelist who described the urge to
jump in Washington State from Deception Pass Bridge. I mean,
just that name alone makes you want to do something weird.
I think as not a frightening thing, but like an
urge to fly. And that's sort of along the lines
of what I was talking about, not necessarily urged to fly,
(38:29):
but just sort of like to see what it's like, right,
you know.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, and hers was serious enough, for significant enough that
she just sat down in the middle of the bridge
to make sure she didn't actually follow through on the urge.
It was that strong.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and she quit knitting her Macromey wings.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You got anything else, No, sir, That's the call of
the void. Everybody don't feel weird if number one you
experience it, and number two you feel like no one's
actually fully explained what it is because they haven't. And
since I said that, it's time for listener man.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
This is just sort of a quick one that came
in today because I think a lot of people don't
know that this is the case, and we say it
from time to time, but this is about our bumper
music that we play between commercial and content. Yes, hey guys,
I've been listening to the show for several years now.
My hobby is woodworking, so I always listen with ear
muffs and Bluetooth built in built in bluetooth to protect
(39:33):
my ears and still hear the show. I enjoy the
very jingles that you play at the beginning and the
end of the breaks. Even if I skip the ads,
I always make sure to listen to the jingles, and
I usually even sing along. Can you provide a collection
of these, I'm not the only one who loves them.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Keep up with the great info and the entertaining tunes.
That's from Rob and Rob.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
We read this because, like I said, I don't think
a lot of people realize that those are all one
hundred percent of them are made by listeners. People send
them in. We don't use every single one of them.
Sometimes it's just you know, some.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Are better than others.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
But we use most of them and we're always willing
to listen to them. Keep under around twelve seconds long,
and that's kind of been one of the very fun
things of the show is hearing everyone's take on the
Stuff you Should Know jingle theme.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, everybody has a favorite. Two. That's the coolest part
is you talk to Stuff you Should Know listeners and
everybody has their own favorite jingles.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And sometimes Jerry is invested enough in editing a particular
episode to try and be a little cheeky with some
particular style as it relates to topic. And sometimes that
happens purely by happenstance, and has even happened to our
disadvantage at times when people are like, Hey, why'd you
play that kind of music in this one? That's really
(40:55):
not too cool, and it's just like, oh, shoot, that
was an accident.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, I remember the one you're talking about too, and
I'm not going to name it either. Yeah, who was
that from?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That's from Rob.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
That was awesome, Rob, thank you for asking that setting
us up like a d ball coach for that one.
If you want to be like Rob and get in
touch with us and ask us a question that we
can answer, we love to answer questions. And if you're
a listener who has a little bit of musical talent
and you want to share a jingle, with us. We
would love that too. Either way, you can wrap it up,
(41:29):
spank it on the bottom, and send it off to
stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Ben's here too, and that makes this a
good old rousing edition of Stuff you Should Know. Philosophy
Now edition.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I mean, I apologize to Josh off here. I
might as well say it now. I may be a
little rough in this one because my brain breaks a
little bit when we have these philosophy subjects. And even
though I made an A and the only philosophy class
I took in college, which I've said before, huh, it's
only because I was so frustrated by it. I worked
(00:46):
really really hard to try and understand it and ended
up getting an A. But it breaks my brain a
lot of times.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh now, okay, boy, you didn't end that sentence under
normal circumstance. No, but good for you. Power for powering
through that that uh, that class and not just being like, well,
I guess I'll take a zero in this one again.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Or drop it in that first week. I did a
lot of that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I did that once in astronomy. I was like, wait,
why are you using like the Greek symbol for epsilon
and sigma in this like I thought we were going
to talk about Mars and stuff and no, right, I
got rid of that really quick.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, good, good job.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
All right, So I kind of I think have a
bit of a grasp on the the philosophy of it.
What I had trouble with with some of the studies,
like the actual research on it. So we'll just muddle through.
It will be fun. Sometimes those are our most enjoyable episodes.
Sometimes there are worst. Let's find out which way this
one goes.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, what we're talking talking about is something we've talked
about on the show before. I wish I could remember
which episode, but we've definitely talked about the call of
the void what what the French call lapel do or
high place phenomenon, And that is the idea that and
it's not just the desire to maybe hurl your yourself
(02:11):
off the top of a building if you're standing, or
a bridge, if you're standing atop of high structure. Yeah,
that's the one we're going to concentrate on. But it
can also mean and I know this is what we
talked about before, because I talked about like grabbing the
cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic, right that very
amazing scene from Christopher Walking and Annie Hall where he's
(02:35):
talking about, you know, swerving into oncoming traffic is so good,
and they smash cut, you know, to him driving Woody
and Annie home. It's just one of the great movie jokes.
But you know, that's the idea, is this weird urge?
I know it was an episode of Louis as well,
and I'm trying to think if I could think of
any more canceled filmmakers.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Right exactly. He did a short on it once.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know, it was in both of those things, And yeah,
it's this weird desire to be like standing at top
of a tall structure and be like, I could just
jump right now and see what's out there.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, so that's a I think that's the most common
phenomenon of the call of the void, just it occurring
to you that you could do this. It can get worse, though, too,
because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them,
they've experienced something akin to an urge, so much so
that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the
(03:30):
edge that they might like go back into whatever stairwell
they just came out of because they don't want to
accidentally or inadvertently. They don't trust themselves not to follow
that urge. That's when it gets really scary. And if
you think about it, we humans have a real tendency
towards self preservation, like we fight to live, sometimes to
(03:51):
degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know. So that makes
the call of the void completely nonsensical. It makes zero
sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just
end it all for no reason, just because it's there,
just because there's a huge void there, jumping into it
because it occurred to you. So the fact that this
(04:12):
is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating. And so
psychologists have gotten into it. Philosophers have gotten into it,
like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it. It's a
thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's
a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it, and
(04:33):
I don't know if we ever will. And for my money,
I don't really want to what understand it. Yes, because
I throw I cast my lot with the philosophers. I
think kerker Garden start nailed it, but it's still I mean,
you don't prove things with philosophy it's just like, what about.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
This, Yeah, yeah, I mean we'll get to statistics and
how they align with you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later,
probably in the last part, but just among the two
of us. I know, I know I said this before
with when we talked about it before, but I have
(05:11):
felt the call of the void many many times. And
for me, it's not I could just end it all,
but it's more like, uh, it's hard to And maybe
that's one of the frustrating things. It's really hard to
explain what's going through my head. It's it's sort of
like no one can stop me from doing this, and
(05:31):
I could, I could know what that feels like to fall.
Part of it is I had a very tragically had
a friend fall off a building to his death, and
oh yeah, so there there's a little bit of that,
like I would want to know what Aaron felt like
and like how scary that was as a as an
(05:52):
empathetic thing. So there's a lot of things in my head.
None of that explains why I want to grab the
cops because I was about to ask that I've never
really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but
I just I don't know, it's really fascinating to have
these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know,
you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything
(06:12):
like that.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, so you just said a mouthful. Essentially, the call
of the void can be can come from it can
come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought
in a lot of situations. Other Times it can be
triggered by the situation, like you're not going to think
about driving into oncoming traffic while you're you know, in
your chemistry class, Like it's while you're driving, right, So
there's some that are triggered by circumstances. And then you
(06:36):
also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by
the idea you're even having this thought. It's just totally out.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Of character for you.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So you put all that together, you have what essentially
is the call of the void. And I say we
go up to the tee and put the little baseball
or whiffle ball on top of the tee and knock
it out of the park. With the philosophers first, all.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Right, I will say this that the carecer guard stuff
really spoke to me me too. We're talking about Danish
philosopher Surin, I guess I don't know what the null
sign means.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So it's like an umlaut okay, so Surin, basically, I guess.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
He talked about this idea that the callovoid call of
the void illustrates anxiety and in his case, and this
is the part that really spoke to me. He argued that,
and I think he's dead right. Actually, is that fear
is when outside forces are scaring you something that could
harm you from the outside. Anxiety is when that's turned
(07:37):
inward and that's emerging from your The threat is coming
from within their inside the house basically, and that house
is your brain. So the freedom to the freedom of
choice in life to move about the world, just to
choose what you do from moment to moment, you're constantly
making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to
do was. So when an anxiety can come from what
(08:00):
he called the dizziness of freedom, of that freedom specifically.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, exactly, And just the basis of anxiety is having
those choices, not knowing what's right, like you said, and
that because our lives are filled from moment to moment
with making a choice, not making a choice, which stills
a choice, just as Gedty Lee that, of course it's
going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition.
It's almost the basis of the human condition, is what
(08:25):
he was saying. So he kind of used that, or
used the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that,
essentially saying that you when you're up there on a precipice,
you're aware that you have the choice to just throw
yourself over, and just realizing that that is a choice
(08:45):
of that you can make right then, like you said,
no one's going to stop you having that freedom. Is
it's too much we like to think that, you know,
we don't have choices that we have metal, we have
a self preservation drive, we have all this stuff that
would prevent us from even ever considering that. And yet
whenever we experience the call of the void, it is
(09:07):
by definition experience experiencing that urge, like the realization that
we can choose that. And that's what kure Kaguard kind
of kicked the whole thing off with, I think in
the eighteen fifties. When you use that to illustrate anxiety
in humans.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Can we have a quick side chat?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, what do they call them?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Not diversions tangents.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, one of our tangents about rush Okay, did
you hear me very quickly say Neil Pert, No, I didn't,
you said Getty Lee. Okay, Well Neil Pert wrote that.
Oh so I just quickly pointed that out. But that's
not what I was trying to point out. Okay, on
that record, and I remember this specifically. My brother and
I were listening to and looking over that LP which
(09:51):
you do.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
What is that spirit of radio?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, on the record is the lyric and if you
choose not to decide, Well, first of all, if you're
not a rushman. The lyric that they recorded was, if
you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I feel like you have to say it like Geddy
Lee still out made a choice beautiful.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Uh So they recorded it like that. Neil Purt was
their lyricist. But on the record, my brother and I
notice it says if you choose not to decide, you
cannot have made a choice.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Oh well, they got that wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
They it was like on the album and he my
brother looked at me and laughed and like mimicked to
Gedty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil like, well,
Neil Purt wasn't looking.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And that is just always stood out to me.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Did Neil part write most of their lyrics or was it.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Just yeah, he was their lyricists.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I didn't know that. Okay, wasn't that crazy, But yeah,
he got that wrong big time.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Uh So back to it from Kuerker Guard, along those
same lines you talked about, is it Start.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's what I've always said, Yeah, he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Jean Jean Paul SARTs another philosopher, he talked about that
as the vertigo of possibility, basically the same idea as Carekerguard,
of like a literal dizziness of possibilities, and he kind
of leaned more into the you know, the freedom about
questions of our human experience, and he went down a
(11:22):
different road than Carekerguard ultimately did. But they both sort
of referred to it as a literal dizziness.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, for sure, because a lot of people do experience
something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a
high place, even if they're not afraid lights.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Right, Oh, I for sure do. Yeah, So it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Does make sense that they would both use that. But
Start was definitely doing a big yes a and to carecreguard,
and I think he even calls out Careguard in the
section of being a nothingness. Right, But his whole jam
that he kind of took, the point that he took
it to was not only are you realizing, like you
have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your
(11:58):
future self has that same freedom of choice. And you,
the one who's making this choice right now not to
leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero
control over whether you in the future future you is
going to make that same choice or not. And that
is a reason to be terrified of being alive. Essentially,
(12:19):
is what Sart said.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Right, Yeah, I mean not quite multiverse stuff, but it's
sort of along the same lines, like almost future future
multiverse maybe.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, But what he was saying also is a lot
like kerky Guard, Like life is made up of choices
moment to moment to moment, And his whole thing is like,
there's no solid self, there's no you that exists. You know,
when you're born or even after you develop a little bit,
to the time you die, you are constantly you have
to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the
(12:52):
same decisions over and over again, and if you don't
have the same experience, say like terror when you're up
on a precipice and decide not to jump, If the
next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you
feel like, what's it like to fly, you might make
the same decision, even though it's out of character with
how you were before that. The self is that fluid essentially,
(13:13):
is what he was saying.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, and he sort of related that to gambling or
the gambler who you know, like an addictive gambler who
quits gambling and you know, let's say years later they
walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the
gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst
thing that ever happened to me, the reaction is, well,
(13:36):
that was sort of a memory of a feeling that
I had, and in order to get back that true
feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do
that by doing it again.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Sort of like a not quite like rose colored glasses.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling
about an X.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Before years later, where you're like.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I was so bad about that, should I give
them a call? When in fact it was a terrible
situation and like to give them the call and try.
I mean, John Cusack made a whole movie about it
to go back to and revisit, like the ex girlfriends,
And it's just constantly reminded, like the Gambler would be of, like, no,
this was a bad idea twenty years ago, it's not
(14:17):
a good idea now still.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Right, And the same thing holds you for like smoking
or something like that, Like when you decided to quit
smoking quick gambling, break up, Like you're in a certain
experience right then that you don't necessarily feel or experience
a year later, so you have to remind yourself like
to make that same decision again. Your future self could
make a different decision than you did right then and
(14:40):
you have no control over it. I know.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Pretty awesome, Right, Should we break or should we talk
about Gary Cox?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick, because I like
this guy's jib.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The cint of his jib. He's a British philosopher. We
can pronounce his name, so that's a plus. And he
looks at more as an existentialist kind of thing, where
we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing,
but they're basically just all an illusion. It's things that
we make up to fool ourselves into thinking we have
(15:16):
an instinct for self preservation.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, and he's saying that. What Kierka Garden Sart are
both saying is essentially that we when we experience the
call of the void, that what's called bad faith as
far as existentialists are concerned. Anytime we delude ourselves, it's
a bad faith illusion essentially, that all of those are
just essentially us deluding ourselves, and it's laid bare by
(15:41):
the call of the void. Like, the only reason you're
not jumping right now is not because you have this
self preservation instinct, is not because you don't want to
do that to your family or anything like that. It's
because you are choosing right then not to jump. That's it.
It's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then.
And that scares the but Jesus out of anybody who
(16:01):
has a brain in their head when they experience the
call the void, especially when it's accompanied by the urge
to jump, not just the thought of jumping.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, so shall we break now.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yes, look at that with the ball, go, we knocked
it out of the park.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
We'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts
that people are having right after this.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with
a confession. I've been talking a lot of macho talk
about te balls and hitting it out of the park.
I used to strike out at T ball pretty often,
and they give you a lot more than just three
strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like
maybe seven eight, sometimes depending on the coach, and I
(17:08):
would still strike out and it happened more than once.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, what was happening there?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
What's happening there is? I was a terrible T ball player.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I didn't play T ball, so you know I didn't
have that experience.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
But you know what t ball is, right.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, you set a ball on a tee, it's not moving,
not going anywhere, and you've got a baseball bat in
your hand.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah. I thought i'd feel better after admitting that, I
feel much worse.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Actually, well, you've told me that before, so I was
pre I felt bad for you back then.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Have I talked about it on the podcast or was
in private?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
No, I was on the show, but that's okay. It
was years ago, Okay, Yeah, we've been doing this for
sixteen years. That's gonna happen what.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
We promised.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Talk about intrusive thoughts and intrusive thought is defined base
as a thought that is not in character for you,
that you're thinking it. It's pretty bothersome and it's a
hard thing for you to control, and if you start
really digging in and worrying about it and looking for
(18:14):
meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to
someone's life.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, they're really a problem for people who have clinical
obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean,
intrusive thoughts can affect anybody. You don't have to have OCD.
The problem that a companies OCD is that people will
try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought.
And the classic example is being a germa feeling like
your hands are dirty, so you go wash your hands.
(18:46):
By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that
your hands are dirty, you have germs on your hands,
and you alleviate that by washing your hands. Well, if
you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your
hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're gonna spend a
lot of your time washing your hands, and it's going
to actually impact your life. That's a classic example of
(19:06):
somebody suffering from OCD. But if you take away the
you know, washing your hands to alleviate that stress from
the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody,
this thought that kind of comes out of nowhere. It's
often very, very troubling. There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions,
which is, you know, I could pick up that axe
(19:29):
and kill my whole family right now. And then you're like,
wait a minute, why am I thinking that? And you
feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what
loving you know, husband, wife, child, would ever think of
something like that. And you start to go down that
road and you're too afraid to even bring it up
to anybody. You'll want to be like, hey, I just
thought of killing all of you guys with an axe.
(19:49):
Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it
to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes.
And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thought that
can only be broken by essentially saying that was an
intrusive thought. I accept as an intrusive thought. I don't
actually want to kill my family with an axe. And
this kind of thing happens to everybody.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, and you know, Lyvia pointed out she did a
great job with the school, by the way.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
She knocked the cheek all out of the part she did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Lyvia pointed out that this has led to a lot
of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past,
with like the court system and like having children taken
away or something. Because the old idea, as far as
psychiatry is concerned or psycho analysis is concerned, was if
you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your
(20:44):
unconscious desire. So if you have a thought about, you know,
drowning your children, and then all of a sudden, you're
going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god,
how could I think that? And what is that all about?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And then you're just really drilling down into that because
you're horrified by it. You have now an analyst saying, oh, well,
that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or, ladies and
gentlemen of the jury. And so you get your children
taken away, and now they're saying like that's not true
at all, Like it's not an unconscious desire. It's someone
who's horrified by these thoughts that are obsessing about them
(21:20):
because they're horrified about it exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And I think the very fact that you're horrified by
it shows you just how far you are from actually
committing that act. So, yeah, the idea that people used
to get their children it happened at least twice. I
could find two cases that happened fairly recently where mothers
in both cases confided in either their psychiatrist or their obgyn,
(21:44):
who both just turned around and called child protective Services
or the cops, you know. And just the idea that
they had it so backwards and that this happens everybody,
but they lost their kids because they sought help for it.
That's just that's terrible. So I'm glad we figured out
that that's not the case, and the fact that it
can be treated pretty easily. You can even self treat
(22:06):
if you learn the steps to identifying an intrusive thought.
Saying it to yourself is just an intrusive thought. Like
I said, you don't want to do this, and that
this happens to everybody. If it's really bad and you
feel like you can't self treat, there are treatments you
can go seek that are also very effective. One of
them is exposure and response prevention. And one of the
(22:27):
examples I've seen is if you think about killing your
family with a butcher knife, your therapist will come to
your house and give you the butcher knife and sit
you on the couch next to your family and basically
be like, do you really want to kill your family,
because now's your time to do it if you want.
And I've seen that they actually will have say like
(22:49):
a father look at their son and be like, please
don't kill me son as part of this therapy. And
it works because you see firsthand like you could do
it right then, and you're just you don't want to,
You're not going, you're not moved to doing that. You
have control over your behavior, and you see it firsthand
right there, and that tends to actually help quite a bit.
(23:10):
And so the fact that that helps and you can
self treat shows that it is just a weird fluke
of human psychology and that it happens to everybody, including
really violent, terrible stuff that you can think about. Everyone
happens to everyone.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, And if we uncomfortably giggled during that part, it's
not because we don't think that that must be the
hardest thing in the world would be to sit down
and have a therapy session like that right with your family. Like,
I can't even imagine what that's like to sit down
and have to do something like that, so or what
it costs.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, oh, I got a snort for that one.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Oh wow, you sure did. I don't do that much.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I guess we should talk about the studies. And when
I say study, I mean studies kind of one too.
There haven't been a ton of them. Lyvia dug up
a couple in twenty eleven, there was a psychologist named
Jennifer Haymes from Florida State. Along with her colleagues are
at Florida State. They're the people who coin the HPP
(24:17):
term high Places phenomenon. And they asked four hundred and
thirty one FSU students.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I guess, yeah, go fighting elione, I no, come.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
On, seminoles, you know that. Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
They asked four hundred and thirty one of their students
about their experiences with high place phenomenon. More than thirty
percent had experience that urged to jump, and among those
who had never experienced suicidal ideation, because you know, when
they study something like this, they're trying to separate those
things out of just the call of the void and
someone who actually has thought about taking their own lives.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, because Freud led everybody down a blind alley by
basically saying, oh, actually, this this is our innate drive
to want to kill ourselves. That's really at play, And
it turned out it's just not true at all.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, So among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation,
there were still seventeen percent who had the urge to
jump at least one time.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
And I believe.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Half of the people who had suicidal feelings said the same.
It was about the same number.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Right, And the researchers are like, this not quite track, Like,
let's reframe the question. And they asked the same people,
have you ever thought about jumping from a bridge or
a building? And they're like, oh, yeah, I've thought about
that for sure. That's what I'm saying. There's a difference
between just being up there and thinking like what would
happen if I did this the thought pops in your head, right,
(25:44):
or the urge where you have to push yourself away
from the balcony. Those are two slightly separate experiences, and
the just the thought popping in people's heads seemed as
to be the more common one. So when they reframed
the question like that seventy four percent of people who
had gone through suicidal ideation said yeah, I've done that.
(26:04):
Forty three percent of non suicidal ideators just say the
general population said that that happened to them. So almost
half of people walking around are like said like, yeah,
it's occurred to me to throw myself off the top
of a tall building. One I've been up there. And
even then Hames and her colleagues were like, I still
think that's a little small. And they've come up with
(26:26):
little ways to essentially say, like, some people are forgetting
that this actually happened to them.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, and mine is always a thought. It's never a
true urge. But they you know, after this study, one
of the things that they talked about was sort of
like what you said with Freud, where they said, like, no,
this is not a manifestation of the death drive, of
the urge to take your own life, And they looked
at actual, you know, real cases of suicide. They looked
(26:54):
at previous research and all the data, and their argument was,
you know, when someone takes their own life, it's rarely
a truly truly impulsive act, right. It's usually something that
has happened over time, and it's in a big sort
of accumulation of these ideations. And while the exact moment
(27:17):
may have some impulsivity to it, it's rarely just a
completely impulsive.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Act, right. And usually it's characterized by resolution more than
impulsiveness too, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
If the person is this is something I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Do, yes, exactly. So they basically said, Okay, Freud was
totally wrong, but still we think that some people don't
really remember that this happened. We think that more people
than say, forty three percent of the population have experienced this.
And one of the explanations they had was that one
(27:51):
thing we left out. They've found a huge correlation between
people who experience anxiety and people who have experienced the
high place phenomenon or the call of the void. Right.
And so what Hames and her colleague said was, all right,
what we think happened is when you're anxious. When you're
an anxious person, you're more attuned to like internal signals yea,
(28:12):
and so you are experiencing those like more acutely, like
all the symptoms associated with it, like just being nervous
and just having like your stomach kind of topsy turvy,
Like those symptoms stand out to you more. And so
those people remember having experienced to call the void more,
so they're more likely to report it. And that everybody,
(28:34):
most people probably experience this. It's just some people it
just so fleeting or whatever to them that they don't
remember it later on. I find that questionable, but that's
kind of how they explained it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, and they also sort of wrap their heads around
the idea that the call of the void is as.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
A survival instinct.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It's kind of the opposite of what people, especially Freud,
had previously thought of it, is that it reflects a
survival instinct that we have to, you know, sort of
think about that in terms of framing it of how
they are appreciating being alive and not doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah. So the scientific explanation O Koran, which means current,
is that when you're up there on a tall building
and you're looking over the edge or something like that,
your innate instinct, like say your lizard brain is like
jump back jack, and so it sends a fear signal,
and your rational brain, which is a little bit slower,
(29:36):
catches up and is like, hey, why am I feeling fear?
There's no danger here whatsoever. There's like a sturdy railing
and I've got like a solid floor beneath my feet.
I guess I'm afraid, or I guess I got a
fear signal because I had the urge to jump, And
that that's the call of the void. That it's a
miscommunication or misunderstanding of your physiology and your rational mind essentially,
(30:01):
and that that's what the called void is. I guess.
I mean that's certainly certainly jibes to a certain extent,
but I don't it still doesn't quite stand out to me,
like like carecer guards and SARTs explanations, Like I think
they just completely nailed it, I like like five whiffle
(30:22):
balls at once out of the park.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean they did the study and they had
data and stuff, but then there's a lot of just
philosophical extrapolation, right that you may not fully be on
board with. Yeah, there was another study, I think maybe
only the other the only other study I couldn't find
any other ones. No, huh, Tobias Ticeman and his other
(30:47):
coworkers there at ruher Univastett Boucham, this is in Germany.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
That's the fighting ruh jers.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
In twenty twenty, and they looked at a couple of
different samples of two hundred and seventy six people who
did an online survey, about half of them had experienced
suicidal ideation at some point. And then ninety four patients
who were being treated for flight phobia, like you know,
fear of flying in a plane, which used to have
pretty solidly but seemed to have gotten over pretty well.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I did you know you.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Don't cover your head with a blanket anymore when you fly,
which is great.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
No, it is, it's very nice, because that was tortuous.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And along the lines of the Ham study, eighty percent
of the people who had experienced suicidal ideation had experienced HPP.
Forty five percent of those experienced HPP who hadn't experienced
or who hadn't gone through suicidal ideas.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, it's almost like exactly the same numbers, which is crazy.
And then it's crazy who was that it was supposed
to be walking but it's that was so bad. I'm
going to say, Colonel Sanders.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
No no, no, no no. I got walking after you said it, so,
just like every great impression.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
After I explained it. So, Tobias Tiesman, is that how
you pronounced his name earlier?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think it's Tysman. I think it's the second letter
for Germany.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Okay, Tobias Ticsman at all. The same study also used
a different group, looked at a different group people who
suffer from clinical fear of heights acrophobia, and they found
that only forty five percent of them had ever experienced
high place phenomenon, which is basically tracking exactly with the
(32:30):
general population. So that shows that it really is not
it doesn't stem from a fear of heights, even though
there's other people that say that's exactly what it stems from.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And so then they the people that they were reporting
to and getting their funding from, said so, what'd you
learn about the fear of flying? And they said nothing, right.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Sorry, exactly, And Delta was like, man, yeah, you got
to stop funding these terrible studies.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Have you heard of this call of avoid thing? They're like,
oh jeez, we're only the second study.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
So right, we'll get it someday, I say, we take
our second break and then come back and do more speculating.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
All right, so Lyvia dug up some more, some more speculation,
(33:38):
which is what she called this section.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Actually what did she call this article? It was great.
I don't have my title page.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
The Call of the Void. Don't pick it up?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, I promised Lyvia, We're going to use that as
the actual title one day.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Is it going to be this one?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think this might be. This might be a yeah,
that's a good one.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And I added in it it's don't pick.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Up, don't pick up, yeah, which is even funnier. Actually
for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
There's a psychology professor from Britain, or researcher rather, named
Paul Salkovski who basically said, the thoughts of doing these,
you know, inappropriate things or dangerous things like the Call
of the Void are a result of our problem solving
process within the brain. So our subconscious just throwing something
(34:25):
out there, and then our rational brain getting an opportunity
to say, like, no, that's of course I'm not going
to jump off or jump off a bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a terrible idea. And then your unconscious is like,
but you could.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, I'm down with that one. I'm not down with
that one.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Rather, Okay, I got one. So and I guess when
we're going back and forth like this, everybody should just
imagine us like we're going to break off and now
like you've backed off, like you did a little dance
to back out, and now I did a little dance
to back in or jump in.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Okay, So cardboards on the Pavement.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
There's a really great article and Nautilus about this too.
I was a researcher named Adam Anderson who as a
cognitive neuroscientist at Cornell. I like this guy's idea. He
basically says that when we're on a tall building, we're
so just not designed to experience heights that it's not
(35:16):
exactly new. I mean, cliffs have been around for a
long time, but our experience of being high up is
far more frequent than it ever was in the past,
just even a few hundred years ago. Right, So when
we're up there, that lizard brain again is like, oh,
we're in danger. We're in danger, and that same lizard
brain says, let's get to safety as soon as possible. Hey,
(35:37):
there's the ground, it's safe to be on the ground.
Let's just jump and be on the ground. And luckily
our rational brain catches up in time and is like, no,
I get what you're saying, Like, yes, this is kind
of dangerous, but jumping to the ground is a really
terrible idea, and we're not going to do that. But
that that is the call of the void, that that's
what gives us that urge to jump. It's our dumb,
(35:59):
dumb on content his mind's seeking safety.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah, that's interesting, I think.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Okay, you jumping in.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, I'll jump in. Okay, I'll pop in lock.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Even though we said that it's not related to acrophobia,
there are people who think it is. There's an Oxford
psychologist named Daniel Freeman who said, no, it actually is
part of the trifecta of what you might experience if
you have a fear of heights, fear of falling, fear
that whatever you're on the bridge or whatever will collapse
(36:30):
beneath you, and then the third one, which is a
fear of jumping.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
So he lumps it.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
In there as part of the trio of things that
what he thinks make up acrophobia.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Or the fear of jumping part of it. He's saying, like,
is the call of the void or triggered by it?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think, yeah, yeah, that's the call of the void.
But he thinks it is a form of acrophobia.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Right exactly. I don't know. I didn't see much support
for his but nah, yeah, there's a neuroscientists too, apparently
as a real pedant, because psychologists have been seeking to
basically discredit Freud's idea that the call of the void
is actually a manifestation of our urge to destroy ourselves,
(37:13):
you know, wrought large or writ large, right, And they
found like, no, that's not true. And Emil gabrielle Bruno,
who again as a neuroscientist, who was like, actually, there's
a there's a condition where you can actually have some
sort of pre funnel cortex damage and you'll violate social
(37:34):
norms left and right. They that person may actually follow
the urge of the call of the void. It could
actually result in somebody jumping, and everybody stopped inviting Emil
Gabriel Bruno to their conferences.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, I'm with everybody there. Yeah, I don't need somebody
pointing that out. All kinds of terrible things can happen
when you have a damage to your.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Exactly do you want to end with Judith dan Koff, Yeah,
I'm going to sit down and let you take it home.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Judith Dankoff as a novelist who described the urge to
jump in Washington State from Deception Pass Bridge. I mean,
just that name alone makes you want to do something weird.
I think as not a frightening thing, but like an
urge to fly. And that's sort of along the lines
of what I was talking about, not necessarily urged to fly,
(38:29):
but just sort of like to see what it's like, right,
you know.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, and hers was serious enough, for significant enough that
she just sat down in the middle of the bridge
to make sure she didn't actually follow through on the urge.
It was that strong.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and she quit knitting her Macromey wings.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You got anything else, No, sir, That's the call of
the void. Everybody don't feel weird if number one you
experience it, and number two you feel like no one's
actually fully explained what it is because they haven't. And
since I said that, it's time for listener man.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
This is just sort of a quick one that came
in today because I think a lot of people don't
know that this is the case, and we say it
from time to time, but this is about our bumper
music that we play between commercial and content. Yes, hey guys,
I've been listening to the show for several years now.
My hobby is woodworking, so I always listen with ear
muffs and Bluetooth built in built in bluetooth to protect
(39:33):
my ears and still hear the show. I enjoy the
very jingles that you play at the beginning and the
end of the breaks. Even if I skip the ads,
I always make sure to listen to the jingles, and
I usually even sing along. Can you provide a collection
of these, I'm not the only one who loves them.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Keep up with the great info and the entertaining tunes.
That's from Rob and Rob.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
We read this because, like I said, I don't think
a lot of people realize that those are all one
hundred percent of them are made by listeners. People send
them in. We don't use every single one of them.
Sometimes it's just you know, some.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Are better than others.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
But we use most of them and we're always willing
to listen to them. Keep under around twelve seconds long,
and that's kind of been one of the very fun
things of the show is hearing everyone's take on the
Stuff you Should Know jingle theme.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, everybody has a favorite. Two. That's the coolest part
is you talk to Stuff you Should Know listeners and
everybody has their own favorite jingles.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And sometimes Jerry is invested enough in editing a particular
episode to try and be a little cheeky with some
particular style as it relates to topic. And sometimes that
happens purely by happenstance, and has even happened to our
disadvantage at times when people are like, Hey, why'd you
play that kind of music in this one? That's really
(40:55):
not too cool, and it's just like, oh, shoot, that
was an accident.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, I remember the one you're talking about too, and
I'm not going to name it either. Yeah, who was
that from?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That's from Rob.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
That was awesome, Rob, thank you for asking that setting
us up like a d ball coach for that one.
If you want to be like Rob and get in
touch with us and ask us a question that we
can answer, we love to answer questions. And if you're
a listener who has a little bit of musical talent
and you want to share a jingle, with us. We
would love that too. Either way, you can wrap it up,
(41:29):
spank it on the bottom, and send it off to
stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Should Know News
Hosts And Creators
Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
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