January 24, 2019 • 42 mins
Betsy Ross is an American icon to many, the seamstress who sewed the first U.S. flag because of a personal commission from George Washington. But is it true? Sort of. Learn all about this fascinating story today.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
dot com. Yankee Doodle, Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles Um Spirit of seventies
six Bryant and Jerry Bicentennial Baby Roland. And I'm Josh.
(00:25):
Like I said, Jerry wishes she was a bicentennial baby. Yes,
she does, both of y'all. Do I know, man, i'd
be five years younger. That's exactly where I am, squarely
in the bi centennial baby year. Oh that's right. I
demand people refer to me as such when I'm out
in public. Dr bi Centennial Baby Clark. Ye. So how
(00:49):
are you feeling pretty good? Good man? We should probably
say thank you to all the people who came out
for our West Coast jaunt. Yeah, that's a good idea,
Chuck last week, so big thanks to Seattle, Portland in
San Francisco for Stuff you Should Know shows, and then
everyone who came out for movie Crushing Into the World Live. Yes,
(01:10):
thank you to everybody for all those jams we had.
We had like really good crowds and good responses everywhere
we went. How did you think go? I was drunk
in Wine Country? It went really well. I was tense
and on stage and Cafe do Nord. Actually it went
well when I went out, so it's like it includes
like a presentation, right, a visual audio visual thing. And
(01:31):
I could not get it to start working for a
good fifteen seconds, which which in my mind was a
good fifteen minutes, and I was like, if you've all
ever wanted to see someone die of fright on stage?
But I got it working and it went well from there.
But the thing that got me the most was they
sat around for thirty more minutes after the show asking questions,
(01:53):
so they were really into it and it meant a
lot to me. Thank you, and um we I haven't
been to Brooklyn yet, but this will come out after
the Brooklyn show, and I'm just going to know, actually
will come out probably the day of the Brooklyn show.
I'll hold my thanks for then we'll see how it
goes Brooklyn. Great, congratulations. How did yours go with Busy Phillips?
It was good. It was fun. She's super nice and uh,
(02:14):
I only made a couple of really terrible jokes and
I will cut those out. Oh you gotta leave them in.
Were they that bad? Now? Yeah, they were pretty bad. Okay,
like dad jokes are like super offensive jokes. So one
which evidently Emily said I said the wrong word, which
explains why it made no sense because she even asked
(02:35):
me a straight She was like, what was up with
that one joke? It's like what? And I told her
and she was like, no, no, no, that's not what
you said. I was like, oh, I don't, won't say
it here, but it it explained a lot. You gotta
tell me later. Okay, yeah, I'll totally tell you. Okay, cool,
But what about the other one? Was it a dad joke? Uh? No,
just dumb Okay, I gotta keep the image up. I
(02:59):
know it's mean, man, sure, but otherwise it'll be although
I don't I got the file today and like the
last twenty minutes of it aren't there. So I emailed
them and they're like, please tell me this is not all.
So it may be a truncated version. I don't know.
I don't know. We'll see the lost episode is what
they call. Um. Okay, well, good, good, congratulations. I'm glad.
(03:22):
Aside from the file snaffood and those two bad jokes,
otherwise it was great. Uh and we're gonna go back
out on the road sometimes soon. We decided this year, right, Yeah,
we're figuring it out. Hopefully another like nine is shows
maybe the course of this year. Sure, places we've never been,
places we have been. Who knows, we're gonna mix it up. Yeah, yeah,
(03:43):
so keep an ear out for that. We've learned. Now
we're just straight up going to put that in the
beginnings of episodes. No messing around anymore, no messing around. Okay,
So all of that, of course seguys quite nicely into
the story of Betsy Ross and the American flags origin
broad I don't know that's necessarily true. I don't think
that's the official historical stance, but I think a better
(04:07):
way to say it. Chuck is questioned, and hey, just
a great story for history. So who cares if it's true? Yeah,
Layoff puts no. No. The person who's like, you know,
said fraud. I guess. Uh. So let's well, I mean,
(04:28):
let's get into this because, uh, the first thing that
you will probably say, if you're a um Betsy Ross believer,
she was a real person, by the way, Yeah, I
think the first thing a lot of our listeners around
the world will say was is who is Betsy Ross? Sure,
well she is credited, which is where I was going
with the Uh the sort of creation, design and sewing
(04:50):
of the first flag thanks to a lot of things,
but certainly held up by a very famous painting called
the Birth of Our Nation's Flag by Charles is Weisberger.
Very famous painting. Yeah, but it's one of those paintings.
It's like super old timing where there's a lot of
written explanation painted into the painting. M hm. I just
(05:11):
find that's just there's nothing more old timey than that. Uh. Well, sure,
I wasn't expecting this, he says, something along the line
an award. Well, I don't have anything prepared, he said, Um,
this is uh. The national standard was made by Betsy
(05:32):
Ross in seventeen seventy six at two three Niner Art Street, Philadelphia,
in the room represented in this picture. That's a lot
of words, but it goes on still. The committee Robert
Morris and Honorable George Ross, accompanied by General George Washington,
called upon this celebrated woman, and together with her suggestions,
produced our beautiful emblem of Liberty. So what do you
(05:55):
guys do in this weekend? I was thinking about maybe
going roller skating, I know, it hasn't been invented yet
because it's only eighteen seventies something, and he actually wrote
out eighteen seventies something, and then he said, how about
this new country pretty neat? Huh, right, And that just
kind of trails off from there. It ends there. It's
(06:15):
a lot. It's a really wordy painting. Frankly, it is
very wordy, but that that helps sort of cement the
idea that Betsy Ross was in fact the designer and
creator and seamstress. I guess for the first flag. Well,
I'm going to take issue on behalf of some of
our more historically astute listeners and say, she I don't
(06:37):
think she's credited with designing the flag. I think that's
the one thing that everybody agrees on, is that she
is not given credit for designing it. She's she's given
credit for create, like physically creating the first flag and
then helping with some troubleshooting in the early design. Oh,
you should go to an elementary school. Why are they
(06:58):
teaching otherwise? Sure? Is that right? Yeah, it's all created
by Betsy Ross. Fraud. It's not true. What wait, which
part is not to the thing? You said? Her? The thing?
I just said neither one. Okay, but we should talk
about the real Betsy Ross because she was a real lady. Um,
she's not an apparition or a visage. Uh. She was
(07:22):
born in seventeen fifty two on New Year's Day. She's
a New Year's Day baby supposedly, Um, I think that's documented. Yeah. Probably.
Elizabeth Griscombe was her name. Born to Samuel and Rebecca
in Pennsylvania, and her great grand pappy Andrew Griscombe, was
a very notable Philadelphian. He was one of the first
(07:44):
settlers in a carpenter in like built apparently a lot
of Philadelphia's first buildings. Yeah, which is I mean that's
that's pretty prominent for um that that time, because I mean,
this is when the whole place is being settled, and
it's being settled by Quakers. So um, like Pennsylvania is
a Quaker settlement. And that's how Elizabeth Griscomb a k a.
(08:07):
Betsy Ross, Which makes you think like she she robbed
banks later in life and went on the lamb and
changed her name. Not true, you'll see it's it'll all
become a parent in a second. But she was raised
as a strict Quaker in Pennsylvania, right, one of nine
children who grew to adulthood, but her parents had seventeen kids. Dude,
(08:28):
that is so many kids. Man. Well, the Quakers take
like keeping their faith going by multiplying. Seriously. I mean,
that's like how a lot of religious groups are. Um,
they do it two fold. They reproduce a lot, and
they also try to make sure that they're they're members
who are born into their their groups marry other members
(08:51):
born in the group so that they will raise more
uh Quakers or what have you, and whatever the religious
group is. And actually Betsy ran a foul this later on,
as we'll see. She was a bit of a rebel. Yeah.
And also imagine Samuel as a Quaker was like, you know,
it's very fun procreation, and his wife was like, it's
(09:13):
not as fun for me. He's such a great like
eighteenth century Quaker impression maybe the best I've ever heard.
This is the one thing we're allowed to do that's good. Well.
They so the Quakers actually had a really really liberal society,
Like there was a lot of equality, there was a
lot of um. It was a very They were a
very peaceful group and still are their pacifists through and
(09:36):
through um. But they also were really strict morally, like
if you were in a play, you could be fine
twenty shillings and spend ten days ten days in jail
for being in a play because it was just kind
of frivolous and not very religious. But on the other hand, um,
they all drank like fish. Um, you just weren't allowed
(09:56):
to sell it to like the Native Americans, because they
equated that with corrupting them. Now of some Quakers, Oh yeah, sure, nice.
Do you I think we used to work with one,
didn't we? Yes, yes, so I think we know the
same Quakers probably, But now I'm wondering. First of all,
I was about to shout out the name. Then I
(10:17):
was like should I not? Then I was like, why wouldn't,
I said, the whole thing happened, Why would I Yeah, exactly,
And then you thought fraud. Well, some people like to
keep their stuff personal, so I'm just I'm not gonna
do that. Under the table Quaker is what that that is.
But they're they're also called the Society of Friends, I
think is the greatest name for any religious group of
all time, right founded by six year olds. Society Society
(10:42):
of Best Winds Um all right, so they're in Pennsylvania.
The one thing that we do know is that her
nickname was Betsy h And when she was about fifteen
she did learn to sew very well. She was an
apprentice to an upholster named John Webster, and this is
where she learned her craft. Right and um, when you
(11:03):
think of like you always hear of Betsy Ross being
a seamstress, right, she was not a seamstress. She was,
like you just said, an upholsterer, which involved a lot
more than say dressmaking. As a matter of fact, I'm
sure she did make clothes here there she knew how to,
but mostly her stuff was on like sewing curtains and
tablecloths and rugs and like other textiles, um, rather than
(11:25):
like actual clothing. So she was in upholsterer three and through.
So it seems stress specifically clothing. That's the impression I have. Interesting.
I feel like such a fraud because I didn't look
up the difference between the two. But that's that's my
take on it. I'm gonna find out also, chook umbrellas,
Venetian blinds and flags, that's something in a pholsterer would
(11:48):
have made back in the eighteenth century. Apparently a seamstress
is any woman who sews well. Then I wonder if
aupholsterer is a specialty of a seamstress then yeah, probably
so okay. And what is a man whoso is called
a seamster? Maybe never never thought about that. And if
(12:09):
he's in the union, he's a seamster teamster. Oh, Dad,
I know it's gotten really bad. Maybe we'll have Jerry
cut that out to keep my public inventory. Uh So,
while she was doing this work, she met a man
named John Ross, not the last name. And he was
also an apprentice, and he was good at it, and
(12:30):
he opened his own shop, and he was sort of
I mean, he came he came from a well connected family. Uh.
And that his actual uncle, George you might have recognized
from that painting, George Ross Jr. He was He signed
the Declaration of Independence, right, so that's legit. Oh yeah,
he was a he was big time. He was um
(12:53):
I think a representative for UM for Pennsylvania and the legislature,
either Pennsylvania or New Jersey, one of the two. He was.
He was a big wig. If he's hanging out with
George Washington and Betsy Ross's upholstery shop. Then he was
a big wig, that's right, a big powdered wig by
the way. So so this her marriage to John Ross.
(13:17):
It didn't last very long, um, although it was um
kind of marked by that like younger younger age radicalism
where she So John Ross was an Anglican, right, Yeah,
he wasn't a Quaker, which was bad, right, So they
fell in love. He was in a pholster as well,
and um, John Ross and Bets Betsy later Betsy Ross.
(13:40):
When they met and fell in love, they had to
elope to New Jersey, which everybody does, the Elope to
New Jersey, um, because her parents were like, you cannot
do that, and she said, well I'm doing it, and
they said, well then you're out. And she went off
and got married and she was, um, ex excommunicated is
not the way I think that's specifically Catholic. But she
was kicked out of the Quakers and her parents, her
(14:02):
family disowned her. So she definitely loved the guy went
off and followed her heart and they made sweet upholstery
together because he opened his own shop. Actually, yeah, it's
really sad though. I mean, it's great that they found
each other, but it's anytime someone's like expelled and disowned
by their family, it's just sort of of her religions
(14:23):
a sad thing, Yeah it is. Or yeah, for any
reason really, you know, like bringing shame or dishonner. It's
like it's your family that's supposed to They're supposed to
be there for you no matter what, but it doesn't
always work out that way. Which which was which Chuck
means that family is what you make of it. I
thought family, what was it? Never trust family, Never trust family,
(14:43):
but specifically blood family. Okay. Um, So the Revolutionary War
comes along and in Philadelphia, um, people were you know,
kind of getting together forming militias in order to you know,
defend the city in case in case things went down,
And no one knows for sure what was going on
(15:04):
with John and Betsy, but we do know that he died.
We just don't know quite how. Yeah. They think maybe
it was either an accident um or a death from
being in the militia, or there's there's supposedly, uh family
rumor that he may have suffered from mental illness and
(15:24):
may have died as a result of something some complication
from that. Yeah. It's really sad though, because that was
obviously her true love enough to to leave her family
in religion. And she was widowed in seventeen seventy six,
just what three years later after they got married. Yep,
so so it was just three years after, right, Yeah, okay,
(15:47):
So when she was a widow that that radicalism I
mentioned earlier started to kick in. She um went back
to Quakers. Um, if she ever left, I don't. I've
never seen that she began attending like Anglican mass or anything.
But she went back to the Quakers. But she joined
a group, a specific group of Quakers called the Free
Quakers or Fighting Quakers, who were like, yeah, we're Quakers,
(16:08):
but we also are not crazy into pacifism because well, yeah,
we will shoved me back, shoved me and see what happens. Um,
and uh that was what they wore on their on
their shirts. But um oh man. But um, the reason
that they were anti pacifists because they wanted to support
(16:29):
independence and then there was going to be a fight,
a struggle for independence, and you couldn't really side with
one side and and not and be a pacifist. Basically. Yeah,
remember our pacifism episode. That was a good one. Yeah,
that was a good one, so she uh was once
again unlucky in love. She got married again to a
(16:49):
man named Joseph ashburn He died in prison and in Britain,
and then she finally got married a third time to
a man named John Claypool will and she was married
to him until he died. But this was like twenty
years this time. You want you want to know how
She and John Claypool met at her second husband's funeral
(17:12):
almost okay, he showed up bar afterwards. John Claypool even
even more even sooner than that. John Claypool was imprisoned
with Joseph Ashburne over in Great Britain, and after he
got out, he made his way over to America. And
he's the one who brought Betsy Ross the news that
her husband had died. And then he, I guess he
was like, so you're doing all right? Can I Can
(17:35):
I be of any assistance for you? And rather than
just being there for her, he took away before her
and he was just there. I wonder if he was like,
by the way, your husband's last words were totally you
should go marry my wife. That's the that's what they
used to do back in the day. So she worked
(17:58):
as an upholster until she died at the age of
four and eighteen thirty six. She had five little girls,
which is kind of great. And aside from that, that's
kind of what we know about Betsy Ross. Um, as
far as the facts go, Yeah, that's about where they
run out. And you might say, listener, well guys, you
(18:19):
left out the most important one, the most important fact,
the story of her sewing the American flag. Well, well,
we're going to stick by what we just said and
say that we just ran out of facts, which means
it's pretty good time for a message break, don't you think.
Charles agreed, We'll be right back. Okay, So it's about
(19:06):
here that we should kind of go over the Betsy
Ross legend because what we just described as in eighteen
early nineteenth century American woman who was a Quaker and
an upholsterer, and her love life and her children, her offspring. Yes,
that's it, that's all we've got. Um. So the flag story,
(19:28):
for those of you who aren't familiar with this, is
that when Betsy Ross was hanging around her upholstery shop
one day in Philadelphia and I believe seventeen seventy six,
I think June seventeen seventy six when they say it happened.
Three men came in that trio, including George Washington, George Ross,
who was um remember her first husband's uncle, and then
(19:51):
a man named Robert Morris, who was a wealthy man
known as the financier of the Revolution and considered one
of the founders of the US financials system. These three
come in, very very important men, and as legend goes,
Betsy Ross recognized George Washington immediately and they said, Ms Ross,
we need your help. We we have to. We're part
(20:13):
of the Continental Congress's Flag Committee and we've been tasked
with coming up with the flag. Will you help us
create this flag? And she basically said, let me see
what you got. Yeah, she said, well, first of all,
my husband passed away six months ago, so why are
you bothering me of all people, right, And Uncle George
was like, I know, but you're still family. You still
(20:33):
got Ross on your name, and this will make for
a good story later, right. So she looks at the
design and she said, this is not bad, she said,
but you may want to change the proportions a bit.
And her real and and this is kind of the
one thing that I think most historians do agree on
is that her one big change design wise was changing
(20:56):
the star from a six pointer to a five pointer.
Right if you if you agree that that Betsy Ross
did have a hand in making the original flag, then yeah,
you would probably say that's probably correct. And apparently just
because it was easier on her to cut. Yeah, I
think though that they were saying, like, five pointed stars
would be harder than a six point star, and she
(21:17):
said no, no, and like whipped out her scissors and
cut up some either cloth or paper and showed them
how easy it wasn't They're like, oh, that's beautiful. And
George Westington was like, are we still talking about this?
Can we go? He's like, why am I in the
bulstry shop? Why am I in the story? It doesn't
even make sense that I would be here? Oh save that?
(21:41):
So um, they said, sure, that's fine. Easier to cut.
You've proved it, even though George Ross was over there
trying to cut the six and prove her wrong. The
sun went down, came back up, he was missing a fingertip,
and so they said that that that's fine, let's just
do it, and uh, they draw up the new sketch. Uh.
(22:05):
They incorporate her her new star, and they said, get
to it, kind lady, and she did, and it's a
It was a big flag. It wasn't like this was
when they were gonna fly, you know, out in public,
so it wasn't like a little tester flag. So it
took a while and what it would It took a
few days maybe, and she finally says, here's what I've
(22:26):
got and they say, this is great. Let's see how
it looks on a on the mast of a ship.
They hoisted it up a ship and they said, all right,
I think we're good to go here everyone. Basically, that's it.
You know, it's just occurred to me, Chuck, is how
closely our History episodes resemble Drunk History episode except for
sober right ish um? But the uh so the flag
(22:52):
is it's been proven on this mass of the ship.
It looks beautiful. And they go back to Betsy Ross
and they say, Betsy, we're gonna need a lot more
of these. And the implication is commerce takes over and
Betsy becomes wealthy and secures her her her place as
one of the the important figures of early American history.
(23:12):
That's right. Uh. Here's the thing though, is there is
no proof or evidence that this happened. This all comes
from a story that her grandson, William can be told
in eighteen seventies. So she's been passed away for uh
what thirty years more, almost close to forty, Yeah, between
(23:33):
thirty and forty. So she but but it wasn't like
she died a hundred and fifty years before when her
grandson wrote it down like he had known her in
his lifetime. Yeah, and he said that his aunt had
told him this ten years before and said, listen, she
told me this story. He you know, recounted it, probably
in a much nicer way than we just did. And uh,
(23:55):
he told this in a speech at the Pennsylvania Historical Society.
And this was, you know, eighteen seventy eighteen seventy six
is right around the corner, and everyone's getting all uh
all hot and bothered by the upcoming celebration. And I
think everyone just sort of well, we'll get to the
reasons why. But everyone definitely bought into this like this
(24:17):
is great, let's run with it, right, And so, um,
here's about where historians say, okay, all right, so William
can be Um produced this story in a speech to
the Historical Society. It took place a hundred years after
the thing happened, almost forty years after Betsy Ross died.
It's family lore, and apparently they got other people from
(24:38):
the family to come testify, like, yes, they've heard this
story multiple times in very similar iterations. It's like the
story of how our ancestor or grandmother Ann or whatever
she was to them, um sowed the first American flag.
And they say, Okay, we don't think that the Ross
and Claypool families are liars by any stretch. They're not like,
(25:01):
just didn't make it up, you know, right. That's that's
kind of the the the uh what's it called when
you give somebody the benefit of the down, just benefit
of the down. That's the benefit of the doubt that
historians tend to give the family so that they're they're
not just like liars who made this up? Um, But
but it is family laren So, historians kind of approach
(25:21):
it with a little bit of a grain of salt.
The thing is, there's no other family in the United
States who's saying, actually, it's it was our grandmother who
made the first American flag, or my grandfather was at
that meeting and he was the one who came up
with the stars. There's nothing like that. There's no other
competing stories to this one, to this family story. The
(25:44):
reason why historians take it with a grain of salts
because again, like you said, there's just no documentary evidence
whatsoever to show that it ever did take place. Yeah,
and there's like there are a few flags here, red
flags that is about out why this may not be true.
What I think is that it is a version of
(26:04):
the truth, and then history tells wraps a good story
around it. Um. There was no record of a flag
committee being formed. Um, the fact that George Washington was
there is just doubtful in and of itself. As a
huge superstar Army general and American hero, that he would
(26:25):
be like, we're kind of kidding around and when he's like,
why am I here? But why would he have been there?
Not only that this is um, this was recounted by
William Canby as a Congressional committee for the flag and
there's two problems with that one. George Washington wasn't a
member of Congress, so again, why would they send him
(26:46):
along with this committee? And then Secondly, Um, Congress never
in any way, shape or form on paper at least
took up a flag the details of the flag until
seventies seven, a full year after this story supposedly took place.
That's right. Uh, there are a few things working in
her favor here. Um. It is verified that she was
(27:09):
paid a pretty good sum of money um that same
year by the Pennsylvania State Navy Board. Okay, I saw
that she did make flags for the Pennsylvania Navy. Well,
this is where it gets all murky because there's another man,
which we'll get into. Uh. Let's let's put a pin
in that though of that guy for now. Okay, alright,
(27:31):
because we were getting pretty fast and furious eight there. Uh.
And there's also a painting supposedly dating to eighteen fifty one,
a different painting that shows her sewing an American flag. Um.
But I don't think they have like officially authenticated that
it's from eighteen fifty one. But here's what I don't understand.
(27:56):
If there was a painting in eighteen fifty one, I mean,
supposedly none of this happened until eighteen what seventy the
can be story? Yeah, like when the big meeting took place. Well,
I mean that's when that's when William can be told
that family story. But the fact that there's a painting
that predates his speech by nineteen years showing the same
(28:17):
thing that lends support to his story, for sure, But
it's still that's an eighteen fifty one painting depicting something
that happened seventy five years prior, right if uh oh, yeah, sorry,
my math was I forgot a hundred years. You forgot
to carry the one that did. But again, that that
painting is not I don't think fully authenticated. So who
(28:39):
knows if that's true or not. One of those dirty
lying Ross Claypool family members did it in like two twelve.
But he said less Claypool for a minute, and I
was about to run out of the room. Yeah, like
Less Claypool. Huh. I'm not a primus guy. Um so
I wouldn't call myself a primus guy either, But I
like some of their songs. Yeah. Um so, Chuck, you
(29:03):
want to take another message, break and then come back
and get to it. Get to the truth about the flag,
(29:39):
all right, Charles, So you said that there was another
guy who kind of muddles the issue a little bit,
and he does, but not fully because, um, if little
school kids are being taught that Betsy Ross did design
the flag, that is an issue because this guy named
Francis Hopkinson is given credit more than anybody else for
(30:01):
having a hand in designing the first American flag, if
not being the designer of the American flag. This this
sketch that this trio of the Congressional Committee brought in allegedly. Yeah,
so the story, the story I heard around the campfire
of old Hopkinson was that he he kind of was,
(30:24):
in fact the designer. He designed quite a few things,
uh back then for the United States. And the first
thing that he did was say I want payment of
a quarter cask of wine. But then he said, actually
I want pounds, which would be like half a million
pounds today. Wow. Um, Apparently it bureaucracy took over and
(30:47):
they batted it back and forth, and then we're like, well, no,
we're paying you as an it's sort of that like
working for a corporation and owning your own I P.
And they were like, no, we're paying you anyway, this
is ours. And when you look at what he filed
for and this is where the naval thing comes in.
It was for the naval flag of the United States,
is what he requested payment for. Right. Supposedly, the quarter
(31:08):
cask of public wine was for the American flag, and
the big old pound bill was for the naval flag.
And that's the only one that Congress responded to. They
just totally ignored the first one. I guess, yeah, but
this is where I just get a little confused, like
it was important. Uh. And that's the kind of one
(31:30):
of the keys here too, is that they needed a flag.
It wasn't just like I mean, there were practical reasons.
It's not like we just want to fly a flag
like in battle. Flags are very important, or they were
back then, because if you were a small navy and
you didn't have a flag that everyone knew, as you know,
the United States would be basically don't bomb me, right exactly,
(31:51):
don't shoot I'm I'm friendly with you. Which needed naval flag, right, So, um,
they had they There are a bunch of flags that
that you had find in revolutionary America at the time.
There were some very famous ones that you would recognize today. Um,
the Washington Squadron it is it's a white flag with
a green pine tree, right, Which is the point of
(32:16):
that is to say that, um, when you revolt, you're
you're going above the king's head because the king was
that had the divine right, like they ruled by, you know,
on behalf of heaven. So by revolting against the king,
you were going to heaven the king's boss and saying, hey,
we want to get rid of this guy. But the
pine tree there was actually a revolt that was that
(32:38):
took place a few years before the Boston Tea Party.
Even it was the first revolt in the in the
colonies against the king, the first actual revolt, and it
was because the king said, I own this pine tree,
I own that pine tree, I own this pine tree. Um.
And they were to make ships masts out of they
were very, very valuable, but the king was keeping all
the good ones, and so these mill owners just started
(33:01):
cutting up the king's ones as well. And the sheriff,
and I can't remember where it was, but came to
arrest a mill owner, and some other mill owners came
around and they beat the sheriff up and chased him off.
And that was the first actual act of rebellion in
the colonies. And that's why the pine tree became a
symbol of rebellion and revolution. Yeah, I didn't know that
(33:22):
until today. It's a symbol of a pain in my
butt if you're king, the king, the King of England.
But it's a pretty flag, that's all right. Okay, are
you a Gadsden flag person? Okay, not that thing, that's
too much controversy. That's the very famous don't tread on
Me flag, right, the rattlesnake coiled up saying don't mess
(33:44):
with Texas. Well not Texas, don't tread on me, that's
what it says. Uh yeah. And then there's of course
the Sons of Liberty flag. Nine vertical stripes, red and white. Um,
it's fine, and this, you know, and this one took different,
um different the the one we stuck with with the
thirteen stripes and thirteen stars over the blue field in
(34:07):
the upper left corner. Um. There were different designs for that,
including one that I think I might have liked better. Um. Well,
one time they had thirteen stars and forming a square.
But then they had one where they were in an
arch over seventy six, which I think would look kind
of cool. That's a boss flag. Yeah, yeah, I agreed
(34:28):
for a little while. They had the American flag, the
red and white stripes thirteen red and white stripes UM
as a field on the flag, and then the canton,
which is um a square in the upper left corner,
which can be up to a quarter of the size
of the flag, and it's still considered a canton. Um
was the Union jack the British flag, Yeah, it looks
(34:50):
real weird and um they apparently were running into trouble
flying that too because it was a little confusing, so
they abandoned that. And as legend has it, that flag
is what what what showed that they really needed an
official United States flag, and so that supposedly is what
led to that Betsy Ross flag, which was thirteen stars
in a circle on canton, a blue canton with the
(35:14):
thirteen alternating red and white stripes. Yeah. I would say
that at the very least, the Union, the Grand Union
Flag as it was known, with the Union Jack in
the corner, was highly confusing in battle. Right, So Congress,
it becomes clear to them that they that yes, they
need a flag, we need a national flag. But the
(35:34):
big distinction between what actually happened and this this story
of Betsy Ross, is that they didn't say anything about
the flag until June fourteen, seventy seven, when they passed
a flag resolution and they just basically said, yeah, these
are these are some things we want on the flag,
and that's it. And that's the first time there's any trail,
(35:57):
any paper trail, of the United States actually thinking and
talking about and discussing a flag. And we have every
other change from then up to I think nineteen fifty
nine or nineteen sixty, um. From seventies and seventies seven
onto the mid twentieth century, you know every change that
was made because they documented it. But this alleged first
(36:18):
Betsy Ross flag took place outside of that documented history. Well,
they may not have known at the time, you know
that this was something important, Yeah, I guess so. Um,
So you know why does this happen? Well, there's a
lot of reasons. Um. One reason was, even way back
in the eighteen seventies, there was a notion that uh,
(36:40):
women were doing some great things and being overlooked, and
they wanted to inspire young women and girls across the
country to do great things as well. So what better
way to do so than to um sort of gussie
up this Betsy Ross story, right. Um, there was also
like a desire for you kind of referenced it earlier
(37:01):
about um the centennial coming up in eighteen seventy six.
There was like a real hunger in the United States,
which was a relatively young country um to to to
have its own mythology. And so that's what some of
these stories that were being um kind of generated and
rehashed or put down on paper for maybe the first
(37:21):
time that that's what they provided, was this this shared
national history that that the United States citizens were kind
of like rallying behind. And that's that's a good example
of why that would have taken off and become cemented. Yeah.
The other thing that kind of cracks me up is
the fact that George Washington was in the story himself, right,
(37:43):
because apparently he was just such a legend at the time.
Uh and just you know, emblematic of of what this
country was and would be, is that he turned up
in a lot of stories that he was he was
never really at because I mean, this is a time
where people would just tell a story and be like,
and guess who else was there? Maybe if they're losing
the crowd, General George Washington himself, the crowds just gas
(38:08):
and sits up. That's great if they the crowd. Uh.
And then, of course the easiest explanation is that, you know,
it's a simple story and it's easy to tell, and uh,
it's pretty streamed. Line, has a nice beginning, middle, and end,
and it's much better than some weird, convoluted retelling that
no one would remember anyway. Right, So here's where Frances
(38:32):
Hopkinson comes in the story. Uh, it's a gonna get
a little money here, kid, but just the wine. But
then money. And then it was a naval flag, right. Uh,
let's see, I got a couple of things about the flag.
So you know, there's the study of flags, how they're made,
what they're what they symbolize, is called vel exology. I
(38:53):
thought it was flaggery. No. Um, that's where you're starting
to lose steam. Okay, vel exology. There's a great invisible
episode on flags. Heard that word it is? Um. So
the United States flag there's thirteen horizontal stripes, seven red,
six white. In case you ever want to win at trivia.
(39:16):
The stripes are the thirteen colonies, obviously, and the stars
of the fifty states of the Union. Um. The red
symbolizes hardiness and valor not blood. White symbolizes purity and innocence.
Blue represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice. And if you ever
want to see a heck of a flag, go to
(39:36):
the Smithsonian Museum of American History and you can see
the Star Spangled banner, the flag that was flying over
Fort McHenry in eighteen fourteen when Francis Scott Key looked
up in the dawn's light and saw that it was
still flying over there despite just a massive assault by
the British, and was inspired to write the Star Spangled Banner,
(39:56):
which became the national anthem. And thirty three I believe ye,
of course is what I meant. Amazing. So that's the flag,
and Betsy Ross go forth and tell the truth. Uh.
And if you want to know more about Betsy ROSSI
you can read this article, a fine one by Ed
Grabanowski actually on how Stuff Works dot com. Since I
(40:17):
said that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call
this really cool email from an Atari guy. This is thrilling.
I thought so too. Hey, guys, love the show. I
worked at Attari in the late seventies. I ran the
warehouse in nineteen seventy six, Warner Brothers purchased Attari from
its founder Nolan Bushnell. No One stayed on for a
(40:39):
couple of years after that, before departing in seventy eight.
Cartridges created to meet movie releases is probably one of
the reasons he left. When I first heard that the
ET cartridges had been buried, I laughed because I oversaw
the burying of leftover Superman cartridges for that first movie
and seventy eight at the Ebil, California landfill, which is
(41:01):
right across the street from the building. Iran, something you
would not be able to do today because of environmental restrictions.
Um like the ET cartridge, Superman would fly around, pick
up Lois Lane and rescue her from some villains. The
only problem Superman kept dropping her and she would plumme
it to the ground. That's a bug. It's so funny.
It's just so similar to eat. The cartridge was rushed
(41:23):
into production was a huge flop. I thought you might
find the Warner Brothers tie interesting. Sure that is from
Gordon Selig. Nice Thanks a lot, Gordon. That was a
good one. I think I see he runs his own
I T business now too. Yeah, man, that's that's what happens. Um.
So if you want to get in touch of this,
(41:45):
like Gordon did with a great story that kind of
rounds out something we were talking about. We love those things.
You can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.
You can join us on Facebook dot com. It's slash
stuff you should know. You can hang out with the
Sun Insta Graham. I've got my own site that Josh
clark Way. And then, as always, you can send us
a nice email to Stuff Podcasts at how stuff works
(42:08):
dot com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Is
it how stuff works dot com m
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
dot com. Yankee Doodle, Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles Um Spirit of seventies
six Bryant and Jerry Bicentennial Baby Roland. And I'm Josh.
(00:25):
Like I said, Jerry wishes she was a bicentennial baby. Yes,
she does, both of y'all. Do I know, man, i'd
be five years younger. That's exactly where I am, squarely
in the bi centennial baby year. Oh that's right. I
demand people refer to me as such when I'm out
in public. Dr bi Centennial Baby Clark. Ye. So how
(00:49):
are you feeling pretty good? Good man? We should probably
say thank you to all the people who came out
for our West Coast jaunt. Yeah, that's a good idea,
Chuck last week, so big thanks to Seattle, Portland in
San Francisco for Stuff you Should Know shows, and then
everyone who came out for movie Crushing Into the World Live. Yes,
(01:10):
thank you to everybody for all those jams we had.
We had like really good crowds and good responses everywhere
we went. How did you think go? I was drunk
in Wine Country? It went really well. I was tense
and on stage and Cafe do Nord. Actually it went
well when I went out, so it's like it includes
like a presentation, right, a visual audio visual thing. And
(01:31):
I could not get it to start working for a
good fifteen seconds, which which in my mind was a
good fifteen minutes, and I was like, if you've all
ever wanted to see someone die of fright on stage?
But I got it working and it went well from there.
But the thing that got me the most was they
sat around for thirty more minutes after the show asking questions,
(01:53):
so they were really into it and it meant a
lot to me. Thank you, and um we I haven't
been to Brooklyn yet, but this will come out after
the Brooklyn show, and I'm just going to know, actually
will come out probably the day of the Brooklyn show.
I'll hold my thanks for then we'll see how it
goes Brooklyn. Great, congratulations. How did yours go with Busy Phillips?
It was good. It was fun. She's super nice and uh,
(02:14):
I only made a couple of really terrible jokes and
I will cut those out. Oh you gotta leave them in.
Were they that bad? Now? Yeah, they were pretty bad. Okay,
like dad jokes are like super offensive jokes. So one
which evidently Emily said I said the wrong word, which
explains why it made no sense because she even asked
(02:35):
me a straight She was like, what was up with
that one joke? It's like what? And I told her
and she was like, no, no, no, that's not what
you said. I was like, oh, I don't, won't say
it here, but it it explained a lot. You gotta
tell me later. Okay, yeah, I'll totally tell you. Okay, cool,
But what about the other one? Was it a dad joke? Uh? No,
just dumb Okay, I gotta keep the image up. I
(02:59):
know it's mean, man, sure, but otherwise it'll be although
I don't I got the file today and like the
last twenty minutes of it aren't there. So I emailed
them and they're like, please tell me this is not all.
So it may be a truncated version. I don't know.
I don't know. We'll see the lost episode is what
they call. Um. Okay, well, good, good, congratulations. I'm glad.
(03:22):
Aside from the file snaffood and those two bad jokes,
otherwise it was great. Uh and we're gonna go back
out on the road sometimes soon. We decided this year, right, Yeah,
we're figuring it out. Hopefully another like nine is shows
maybe the course of this year. Sure, places we've never been,
places we have been. Who knows, we're gonna mix it up. Yeah, yeah,
(03:43):
so keep an ear out for that. We've learned. Now
we're just straight up going to put that in the
beginnings of episodes. No messing around anymore, no messing around. Okay,
So all of that, of course seguys quite nicely into
the story of Betsy Ross and the American flags origin
broad I don't know that's necessarily true. I don't think
that's the official historical stance, but I think a better
(04:07):
way to say it. Chuck is questioned, and hey, just
a great story for history. So who cares if it's true? Yeah,
Layoff puts no. No. The person who's like, you know,
said fraud. I guess. Uh. So let's well, I mean,
(04:28):
let's get into this because, uh, the first thing that
you will probably say, if you're a um Betsy Ross believer,
she was a real person, by the way, Yeah, I
think the first thing a lot of our listeners around
the world will say was is who is Betsy Ross? Sure,
well she is credited, which is where I was going
with the Uh the sort of creation, design and sewing
(04:50):
of the first flag thanks to a lot of things,
but certainly held up by a very famous painting called
the Birth of Our Nation's Flag by Charles is Weisberger.
Very famous painting. Yeah, but it's one of those paintings.
It's like super old timing where there's a lot of
written explanation painted into the painting. M hm. I just
(05:11):
find that's just there's nothing more old timey than that. Uh. Well, sure,
I wasn't expecting this, he says, something along the line
an award. Well, I don't have anything prepared, he said, Um,
this is uh. The national standard was made by Betsy
(05:32):
Ross in seventeen seventy six at two three Niner Art Street, Philadelphia,
in the room represented in this picture. That's a lot
of words, but it goes on still. The committee Robert
Morris and Honorable George Ross, accompanied by General George Washington,
called upon this celebrated woman, and together with her suggestions,
produced our beautiful emblem of Liberty. So what do you
(05:55):
guys do in this weekend? I was thinking about maybe
going roller skating, I know, it hasn't been invented yet
because it's only eighteen seventies something, and he actually wrote
out eighteen seventies something, and then he said, how about
this new country pretty neat? Huh, right, And that just
kind of trails off from there. It ends there. It's
(06:15):
a lot. It's a really wordy painting. Frankly, it is
very wordy, but that that helps sort of cement the
idea that Betsy Ross was in fact the designer and
creator and seamstress. I guess for the first flag. Well,
I'm going to take issue on behalf of some of
our more historically astute listeners and say, she I don't
(06:37):
think she's credited with designing the flag. I think that's
the one thing that everybody agrees on, is that she
is not given credit for designing it. She's she's given
credit for create, like physically creating the first flag and
then helping with some troubleshooting in the early design. Oh,
you should go to an elementary school. Why are they
(06:58):
teaching otherwise? Sure? Is that right? Yeah, it's all created
by Betsy Ross. Fraud. It's not true. What wait, which
part is not to the thing? You said? Her? The thing?
I just said neither one. Okay, but we should talk
about the real Betsy Ross because she was a real lady. Um,
she's not an apparition or a visage. Uh. She was
(07:22):
born in seventeen fifty two on New Year's Day. She's
a New Year's Day baby supposedly, Um, I think that's documented. Yeah. Probably.
Elizabeth Griscombe was her name. Born to Samuel and Rebecca
in Pennsylvania, and her great grand pappy Andrew Griscombe, was
a very notable Philadelphian. He was one of the first
(07:44):
settlers in a carpenter in like built apparently a lot
of Philadelphia's first buildings. Yeah, which is I mean that's
that's pretty prominent for um that that time, because I mean,
this is when the whole place is being settled, and
it's being settled by Quakers. So um, like Pennsylvania is
a Quaker settlement. And that's how Elizabeth Griscomb a k a.
(08:07):
Betsy Ross, Which makes you think like she she robbed
banks later in life and went on the lamb and
changed her name. Not true, you'll see it's it'll all
become a parent in a second. But she was raised
as a strict Quaker in Pennsylvania, right, one of nine
children who grew to adulthood, but her parents had seventeen kids. Dude,
(08:28):
that is so many kids. Man. Well, the Quakers take
like keeping their faith going by multiplying. Seriously. I mean,
that's like how a lot of religious groups are. Um,
they do it two fold. They reproduce a lot, and
they also try to make sure that they're they're members
who are born into their their groups marry other members
(08:51):
born in the group so that they will raise more
uh Quakers or what have you, and whatever the religious
group is. And actually Betsy ran a foul this later on,
as we'll see. She was a bit of a rebel. Yeah.
And also imagine Samuel as a Quaker was like, you know,
it's very fun procreation, and his wife was like, it's
(09:13):
not as fun for me. He's such a great like
eighteenth century Quaker impression maybe the best I've ever heard.
This is the one thing we're allowed to do that's good. Well.
They so the Quakers actually had a really really liberal society,
Like there was a lot of equality, there was a
lot of um. It was a very They were a
very peaceful group and still are their pacifists through and
(09:36):
through um. But they also were really strict morally, like
if you were in a play, you could be fine
twenty shillings and spend ten days ten days in jail
for being in a play because it was just kind
of frivolous and not very religious. But on the other hand, um,
they all drank like fish. Um, you just weren't allowed
(09:56):
to sell it to like the Native Americans, because they
equated that with corrupting them. Now of some Quakers, Oh yeah, sure, nice.
Do you I think we used to work with one,
didn't we? Yes, yes, so I think we know the
same Quakers probably, But now I'm wondering. First of all,
I was about to shout out the name. Then I
(10:17):
was like should I not? Then I was like, why wouldn't,
I said, the whole thing happened, Why would I Yeah, exactly,
And then you thought fraud. Well, some people like to
keep their stuff personal, so I'm just I'm not gonna
do that. Under the table Quaker is what that that is.
But they're they're also called the Society of Friends, I
think is the greatest name for any religious group of
all time, right founded by six year olds. Society Society
(10:42):
of Best Winds Um all right, so they're in Pennsylvania.
The one thing that we do know is that her
nickname was Betsy h And when she was about fifteen
she did learn to sew very well. She was an
apprentice to an upholster named John Webster, and this is
where she learned her craft. Right and um, when you
(11:03):
think of like you always hear of Betsy Ross being
a seamstress, right, she was not a seamstress. She was,
like you just said, an upholsterer, which involved a lot
more than say dressmaking. As a matter of fact, I'm
sure she did make clothes here there she knew how to,
but mostly her stuff was on like sewing curtains and
tablecloths and rugs and like other textiles, um, rather than
(11:25):
like actual clothing. So she was in upholsterer three and through.
So it seems stress specifically clothing. That's the impression I have. Interesting.
I feel like such a fraud because I didn't look
up the difference between the two. But that's that's my
take on it. I'm gonna find out also, chook umbrellas,
Venetian blinds and flags, that's something in a pholsterer would
(11:48):
have made back in the eighteenth century. Apparently a seamstress
is any woman who sews well. Then I wonder if
aupholsterer is a specialty of a seamstress then yeah, probably
so okay. And what is a man whoso is called
a seamster? Maybe never never thought about that. And if
(12:09):
he's in the union, he's a seamster teamster. Oh, Dad,
I know it's gotten really bad. Maybe we'll have Jerry
cut that out to keep my public inventory. Uh So,
while she was doing this work, she met a man
named John Ross, not the last name. And he was
also an apprentice, and he was good at it, and
(12:30):
he opened his own shop, and he was sort of
I mean, he came he came from a well connected family. Uh.
And that his actual uncle, George you might have recognized
from that painting, George Ross Jr. He was He signed
the Declaration of Independence, right, so that's legit. Oh yeah,
he was a he was big time. He was um
(12:53):
I think a representative for UM for Pennsylvania and the legislature,
either Pennsylvania or New Jersey, one of the two. He was.
He was a big wig. If he's hanging out with
George Washington and Betsy Ross's upholstery shop. Then he was
a big wig, that's right, a big powdered wig by
the way. So so this her marriage to John Ross.
(13:17):
It didn't last very long, um, although it was um
kind of marked by that like younger younger age radicalism
where she So John Ross was an Anglican, right, Yeah,
he wasn't a Quaker, which was bad, right, So they
fell in love. He was in a pholster as well,
and um, John Ross and Bets Betsy later Betsy Ross.
(13:40):
When they met and fell in love, they had to
elope to New Jersey, which everybody does, the Elope to
New Jersey, um, because her parents were like, you cannot
do that, and she said, well I'm doing it, and
they said, well then you're out. And she went off
and got married and she was, um, ex excommunicated is
not the way I think that's specifically Catholic. But she
was kicked out of the Quakers and her parents, her
(14:02):
family disowned her. So she definitely loved the guy went
off and followed her heart and they made sweet upholstery
together because he opened his own shop. Actually, yeah, it's
really sad though. I mean, it's great that they found
each other, but it's anytime someone's like expelled and disowned
by their family, it's just sort of of her religions
(14:23):
a sad thing, Yeah it is. Or yeah, for any
reason really, you know, like bringing shame or dishonner. It's
like it's your family that's supposed to They're supposed to
be there for you no matter what, but it doesn't
always work out that way. Which which was which Chuck
means that family is what you make of it. I
thought family, what was it? Never trust family, Never trust family,
(14:43):
but specifically blood family. Okay. Um, So the Revolutionary War
comes along and in Philadelphia, um, people were you know,
kind of getting together forming militias in order to you know,
defend the city in case in case things went down,
And no one knows for sure what was going on
(15:04):
with John and Betsy, but we do know that he died.
We just don't know quite how. Yeah. They think maybe
it was either an accident um or a death from
being in the militia, or there's there's supposedly, uh family
rumor that he may have suffered from mental illness and
(15:24):
may have died as a result of something some complication
from that. Yeah. It's really sad though, because that was
obviously her true love enough to to leave her family
in religion. And she was widowed in seventeen seventy six,
just what three years later after they got married. Yep,
so so it was just three years after, right, Yeah, okay,
(15:47):
So when she was a widow that that radicalism I
mentioned earlier started to kick in. She um went back
to Quakers. Um, if she ever left, I don't. I've
never seen that she began attending like Anglican mass or anything.
But she went back to the Quakers. But she joined
a group, a specific group of Quakers called the Free
Quakers or Fighting Quakers, who were like, yeah, we're Quakers,
(16:08):
but we also are not crazy into pacifism because well, yeah,
we will shoved me back, shoved me and see what happens. Um,
and uh that was what they wore on their on
their shirts. But um oh man. But um, the reason
that they were anti pacifists because they wanted to support
(16:29):
independence and then there was going to be a fight,
a struggle for independence, and you couldn't really side with
one side and and not and be a pacifist. Basically. Yeah,
remember our pacifism episode. That was a good one. Yeah,
that was a good one, so she uh was once
again unlucky in love. She got married again to a
(16:49):
man named Joseph ashburn He died in prison and in Britain,
and then she finally got married a third time to
a man named John Claypool will and she was married
to him until he died. But this was like twenty
years this time. You want you want to know how
She and John Claypool met at her second husband's funeral
(17:12):
almost okay, he showed up bar afterwards. John Claypool even
even more even sooner than that. John Claypool was imprisoned
with Joseph Ashburne over in Great Britain, and after he
got out, he made his way over to America. And
he's the one who brought Betsy Ross the news that
her husband had died. And then he, I guess he
was like, so you're doing all right? Can I Can
(17:35):
I be of any assistance for you? And rather than
just being there for her, he took away before her
and he was just there. I wonder if he was like,
by the way, your husband's last words were totally you
should go marry my wife. That's the that's what they
used to do back in the day. So she worked
(17:58):
as an upholster until she died at the age of
four and eighteen thirty six. She had five little girls,
which is kind of great. And aside from that, that's
kind of what we know about Betsy Ross. Um, as
far as the facts go, Yeah, that's about where they
run out. And you might say, listener, well guys, you
(18:19):
left out the most important one, the most important fact,
the story of her sewing the American flag. Well, well,
we're going to stick by what we just said and
say that we just ran out of facts, which means
it's pretty good time for a message break, don't you think.
Charles agreed, We'll be right back. Okay, So it's about
(19:06):
here that we should kind of go over the Betsy
Ross legend because what we just described as in eighteen
early nineteenth century American woman who was a Quaker and
an upholsterer, and her love life and her children, her offspring. Yes,
that's it, that's all we've got. Um. So the flag story,
(19:28):
for those of you who aren't familiar with this, is
that when Betsy Ross was hanging around her upholstery shop
one day in Philadelphia and I believe seventeen seventy six,
I think June seventeen seventy six when they say it happened.
Three men came in that trio, including George Washington, George Ross,
who was um remember her first husband's uncle, and then
(19:51):
a man named Robert Morris, who was a wealthy man
known as the financier of the Revolution and considered one
of the founders of the US financials system. These three
come in, very very important men, and as legend goes,
Betsy Ross recognized George Washington immediately and they said, Ms Ross,
we need your help. We we have to. We're part
(20:13):
of the Continental Congress's Flag Committee and we've been tasked
with coming up with the flag. Will you help us
create this flag? And she basically said, let me see
what you got. Yeah, she said, well, first of all,
my husband passed away six months ago, so why are
you bothering me of all people, right, And Uncle George
was like, I know, but you're still family. You still
(20:33):
got Ross on your name, and this will make for
a good story later, right. So she looks at the
design and she said, this is not bad, she said,
but you may want to change the proportions a bit.
And her real and and this is kind of the
one thing that I think most historians do agree on
is that her one big change design wise was changing
(20:56):
the star from a six pointer to a five pointer.
Right if you if you agree that that Betsy Ross
did have a hand in making the original flag, then yeah,
you would probably say that's probably correct. And apparently just
because it was easier on her to cut. Yeah, I
think though that they were saying, like, five pointed stars
would be harder than a six point star, and she
(21:17):
said no, no, and like whipped out her scissors and
cut up some either cloth or paper and showed them
how easy it wasn't They're like, oh, that's beautiful. And
George Westington was like, are we still talking about this?
Can we go? He's like, why am I in the
bulstry shop? Why am I in the story? It doesn't
even make sense that I would be here? Oh save that?
(21:41):
So um, they said, sure, that's fine. Easier to cut.
You've proved it, even though George Ross was over there
trying to cut the six and prove her wrong. The
sun went down, came back up, he was missing a fingertip,
and so they said that that that's fine, let's just
do it, and uh, they draw up the new sketch. Uh.
(22:05):
They incorporate her her new star, and they said, get
to it, kind lady, and she did, and it's a
It was a big flag. It wasn't like this was
when they were gonna fly, you know, out in public,
so it wasn't like a little tester flag. So it
took a while and what it would It took a
few days maybe, and she finally says, here's what I've
(22:26):
got and they say, this is great. Let's see how
it looks on a on the mast of a ship.
They hoisted it up a ship and they said, all right,
I think we're good to go here everyone. Basically, that's it.
You know, it's just occurred to me, Chuck, is how
closely our History episodes resemble Drunk History episode except for
sober right ish um? But the uh so the flag
(22:52):
is it's been proven on this mass of the ship.
It looks beautiful. And they go back to Betsy Ross
and they say, Betsy, we're gonna need a lot more
of these. And the implication is commerce takes over and
Betsy becomes wealthy and secures her her her place as
one of the the important figures of early American history.
(23:12):
That's right. Uh. Here's the thing though, is there is
no proof or evidence that this happened. This all comes
from a story that her grandson, William can be told
in eighteen seventies. So she's been passed away for uh
what thirty years more, almost close to forty, Yeah, between
(23:33):
thirty and forty. So she but but it wasn't like
she died a hundred and fifty years before when her
grandson wrote it down like he had known her in
his lifetime. Yeah, and he said that his aunt had
told him this ten years before and said, listen, she
told me this story. He you know, recounted it, probably
in a much nicer way than we just did. And uh,
(23:55):
he told this in a speech at the Pennsylvania Historical Society.
And this was, you know, eighteen seventy eighteen seventy six
is right around the corner, and everyone's getting all uh
all hot and bothered by the upcoming celebration. And I
think everyone just sort of well, we'll get to the
reasons why. But everyone definitely bought into this like this
(24:17):
is great, let's run with it, right, And so, um,
here's about where historians say, okay, all right, so William
can be Um produced this story in a speech to
the Historical Society. It took place a hundred years after
the thing happened, almost forty years after Betsy Ross died.
It's family lore, and apparently they got other people from
(24:38):
the family to come testify, like, yes, they've heard this
story multiple times in very similar iterations. It's like the
story of how our ancestor or grandmother Ann or whatever
she was to them, um sowed the first American flag.
And they say, Okay, we don't think that the Ross
and Claypool families are liars by any stretch. They're not like,
(25:01):
just didn't make it up, you know, right. That's that's
kind of the the the uh what's it called when
you give somebody the benefit of the down, just benefit
of the down. That's the benefit of the doubt that
historians tend to give the family so that they're they're
not just like liars who made this up? Um, But
but it is family laren So, historians kind of approach
(25:21):
it with a little bit of a grain of salt.
The thing is, there's no other family in the United
States who's saying, actually, it's it was our grandmother who
made the first American flag, or my grandfather was at
that meeting and he was the one who came up
with the stars. There's nothing like that. There's no other
competing stories to this one, to this family story. The
(25:44):
reason why historians take it with a grain of salts
because again, like you said, there's just no documentary evidence
whatsoever to show that it ever did take place. Yeah,
and there's like there are a few flags here, red
flags that is about out why this may not be true.
What I think is that it is a version of
(26:04):
the truth, and then history tells wraps a good story
around it. Um. There was no record of a flag
committee being formed. Um, the fact that George Washington was
there is just doubtful in and of itself. As a
huge superstar Army general and American hero, that he would
(26:25):
be like, we're kind of kidding around and when he's like,
why am I here? But why would he have been there?
Not only that this is um, this was recounted by
William Canby as a Congressional committee for the flag and
there's two problems with that one. George Washington wasn't a
member of Congress, so again, why would they send him
(26:46):
along with this committee? And then Secondly, Um, Congress never
in any way, shape or form on paper at least
took up a flag the details of the flag until
seventies seven, a full year after this story supposedly took place.
That's right. Uh, there are a few things working in
her favor here. Um. It is verified that she was
(27:09):
paid a pretty good sum of money um that same
year by the Pennsylvania State Navy Board. Okay, I saw
that she did make flags for the Pennsylvania Navy. Well,
this is where it gets all murky because there's another man,
which we'll get into. Uh. Let's let's put a pin
in that though of that guy for now. Okay, alright,
(27:31):
because we were getting pretty fast and furious eight there. Uh.
And there's also a painting supposedly dating to eighteen fifty one,
a different painting that shows her sewing an American flag. Um.
But I don't think they have like officially authenticated that
it's from eighteen fifty one. But here's what I don't understand.
(27:56):
If there was a painting in eighteen fifty one, I mean,
supposedly none of this happened until eighteen what seventy the
can be story? Yeah, like when the big meeting took place. Well,
I mean that's when that's when William can be told
that family story. But the fact that there's a painting
that predates his speech by nineteen years showing the same
(28:17):
thing that lends support to his story, for sure, But
it's still that's an eighteen fifty one painting depicting something
that happened seventy five years prior, right if uh oh, yeah, sorry,
my math was I forgot a hundred years. You forgot
to carry the one that did. But again, that that
painting is not I don't think fully authenticated. So who
(28:39):
knows if that's true or not. One of those dirty
lying Ross Claypool family members did it in like two twelve.
But he said less Claypool for a minute, and I
was about to run out of the room. Yeah, like
Less Claypool. Huh. I'm not a primus guy. Um so
I wouldn't call myself a primus guy either, But I
like some of their songs. Yeah. Um so, Chuck, you
(29:03):
want to take another message, break and then come back
and get to it. Get to the truth about the flag,
(29:39):
all right, Charles, So you said that there was another
guy who kind of muddles the issue a little bit,
and he does, but not fully because, um, if little
school kids are being taught that Betsy Ross did design
the flag, that is an issue because this guy named
Francis Hopkinson is given credit more than anybody else for
(30:01):
having a hand in designing the first American flag, if
not being the designer of the American flag. This this
sketch that this trio of the Congressional Committee brought in allegedly. Yeah,
so the story, the story I heard around the campfire
of old Hopkinson was that he he kind of was,
(30:24):
in fact the designer. He designed quite a few things,
uh back then for the United States. And the first
thing that he did was say I want payment of
a quarter cask of wine. But then he said, actually
I want pounds, which would be like half a million
pounds today. Wow. Um, Apparently it bureaucracy took over and
(30:47):
they batted it back and forth, and then we're like, well, no,
we're paying you as an it's sort of that like
working for a corporation and owning your own I P.
And they were like, no, we're paying you anyway, this
is ours. And when you look at what he filed
for and this is where the naval thing comes in.
It was for the naval flag of the United States,
is what he requested payment for. Right. Supposedly, the quarter
(31:08):
cask of public wine was for the American flag, and
the big old pound bill was for the naval flag.
And that's the only one that Congress responded to. They
just totally ignored the first one. I guess, yeah, but
this is where I just get a little confused, like
it was important. Uh. And that's the kind of one
(31:30):
of the keys here too, is that they needed a flag.
It wasn't just like I mean, there were practical reasons.
It's not like we just want to fly a flag
like in battle. Flags are very important, or they were
back then, because if you were a small navy and
you didn't have a flag that everyone knew, as you know,
the United States would be basically don't bomb me, right exactly,
(31:51):
don't shoot I'm I'm friendly with you. Which needed naval flag, right, So, um,
they had they There are a bunch of flags that
that you had find in revolutionary America at the time.
There were some very famous ones that you would recognize today. Um,
the Washington Squadron it is it's a white flag with
a green pine tree, right, Which is the point of
(32:16):
that is to say that, um, when you revolt, you're
you're going above the king's head because the king was
that had the divine right, like they ruled by, you know,
on behalf of heaven. So by revolting against the king,
you were going to heaven the king's boss and saying, hey,
we want to get rid of this guy. But the
pine tree there was actually a revolt that was that
(32:38):
took place a few years before the Boston Tea Party.
Even it was the first revolt in the in the
colonies against the king, the first actual revolt, and it
was because the king said, I own this pine tree,
I own that pine tree, I own this pine tree. Um.
And they were to make ships masts out of they
were very, very valuable, but the king was keeping all
the good ones, and so these mill owners just started
(33:01):
cutting up the king's ones as well. And the sheriff,
and I can't remember where it was, but came to
arrest a mill owner, and some other mill owners came
around and they beat the sheriff up and chased him off.
And that was the first actual act of rebellion in
the colonies. And that's why the pine tree became a
symbol of rebellion and revolution. Yeah, I didn't know that
(33:22):
until today. It's a symbol of a pain in my
butt if you're king, the king, the King of England.
But it's a pretty flag, that's all right. Okay, are
you a Gadsden flag person? Okay, not that thing, that's
too much controversy. That's the very famous don't tread on
Me flag, right, the rattlesnake coiled up saying don't mess
(33:44):
with Texas. Well not Texas, don't tread on me, that's
what it says. Uh yeah. And then there's of course
the Sons of Liberty flag. Nine vertical stripes, red and white. Um,
it's fine, and this, you know, and this one took different,
um different the the one we stuck with with the
thirteen stripes and thirteen stars over the blue field in
(34:07):
the upper left corner. Um. There were different designs for that,
including one that I think I might have liked better. Um. Well,
one time they had thirteen stars and forming a square.
But then they had one where they were in an
arch over seventy six, which I think would look kind
of cool. That's a boss flag. Yeah, yeah, I agreed
(34:28):
for a little while. They had the American flag, the
red and white stripes thirteen red and white stripes UM
as a field on the flag, and then the canton,
which is um a square in the upper left corner,
which can be up to a quarter of the size
of the flag, and it's still considered a canton. Um
was the Union jack the British flag, Yeah, it looks
(34:50):
real weird and um they apparently were running into trouble
flying that too because it was a little confusing, so
they abandoned that. And as legend has it, that flag
is what what what showed that they really needed an
official United States flag, and so that supposedly is what
led to that Betsy Ross flag, which was thirteen stars
in a circle on canton, a blue canton with the
(35:14):
thirteen alternating red and white stripes. Yeah. I would say
that at the very least, the Union, the Grand Union
Flag as it was known, with the Union Jack in
the corner, was highly confusing in battle. Right, So Congress,
it becomes clear to them that they that yes, they
need a flag, we need a national flag. But the
(35:34):
big distinction between what actually happened and this this story
of Betsy Ross, is that they didn't say anything about
the flag until June fourteen, seventy seven, when they passed
a flag resolution and they just basically said, yeah, these
are these are some things we want on the flag,
and that's it. And that's the first time there's any trail,
(35:57):
any paper trail, of the United States actually thinking and
talking about and discussing a flag. And we have every
other change from then up to I think nineteen fifty
nine or nineteen sixty, um. From seventies and seventies seven
onto the mid twentieth century, you know every change that
was made because they documented it. But this alleged first
(36:18):
Betsy Ross flag took place outside of that documented history. Well,
they may not have known at the time, you know
that this was something important, Yeah, I guess so. Um,
So you know why does this happen? Well, there's a
lot of reasons. Um. One reason was, even way back
in the eighteen seventies, there was a notion that uh,
(36:40):
women were doing some great things and being overlooked, and
they wanted to inspire young women and girls across the
country to do great things as well. So what better
way to do so than to um sort of gussie
up this Betsy Ross story, right. Um, there was also
like a desire for you kind of referenced it earlier
(37:01):
about um the centennial coming up in eighteen seventy six.
There was like a real hunger in the United States,
which was a relatively young country um to to to
have its own mythology. And so that's what some of
these stories that were being um kind of generated and
rehashed or put down on paper for maybe the first
(37:21):
time that that's what they provided, was this this shared
national history that that the United States citizens were kind
of like rallying behind. And that's that's a good example
of why that would have taken off and become cemented. Yeah.
The other thing that kind of cracks me up is
the fact that George Washington was in the story himself, right,
(37:43):
because apparently he was just such a legend at the time.
Uh and just you know, emblematic of of what this
country was and would be, is that he turned up
in a lot of stories that he was he was
never really at because I mean, this is a time
where people would just tell a story and be like,
and guess who else was there? Maybe if they're losing
the crowd, General George Washington himself, the crowds just gas
(38:08):
and sits up. That's great if they the crowd. Uh.
And then, of course the easiest explanation is that, you know,
it's a simple story and it's easy to tell, and uh,
it's pretty streamed. Line, has a nice beginning, middle, and end,
and it's much better than some weird, convoluted retelling that
no one would remember anyway. Right, So here's where Frances
(38:32):
Hopkinson comes in the story. Uh, it's a gonna get
a little money here, kid, but just the wine. But
then money. And then it was a naval flag, right. Uh,
let's see, I got a couple of things about the flag.
So you know, there's the study of flags, how they're made,
what they're what they symbolize, is called vel exology. I
(38:53):
thought it was flaggery. No. Um, that's where you're starting
to lose steam. Okay, vel exology. There's a great invisible
episode on flags. Heard that word it is? Um. So
the United States flag there's thirteen horizontal stripes, seven red,
six white. In case you ever want to win at trivia.
(39:16):
The stripes are the thirteen colonies, obviously, and the stars
of the fifty states of the Union. Um. The red
symbolizes hardiness and valor not blood. White symbolizes purity and innocence.
Blue represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice. And if you ever
want to see a heck of a flag, go to
(39:36):
the Smithsonian Museum of American History and you can see
the Star Spangled banner, the flag that was flying over
Fort McHenry in eighteen fourteen when Francis Scott Key looked
up in the dawn's light and saw that it was
still flying over there despite just a massive assault by
the British, and was inspired to write the Star Spangled Banner,
(39:56):
which became the national anthem. And thirty three I believe ye,
of course is what I meant. Amazing. So that's the flag,
and Betsy Ross go forth and tell the truth. Uh.
And if you want to know more about Betsy ROSSI
you can read this article, a fine one by Ed
Grabanowski actually on how Stuff Works dot com. Since I
(40:17):
said that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call
this really cool email from an Atari guy. This is thrilling.
I thought so too. Hey, guys, love the show. I
worked at Attari in the late seventies. I ran the
warehouse in nineteen seventy six, Warner Brothers purchased Attari from
its founder Nolan Bushnell. No One stayed on for a
(40:39):
couple of years after that, before departing in seventy eight.
Cartridges created to meet movie releases is probably one of
the reasons he left. When I first heard that the
ET cartridges had been buried, I laughed because I oversaw
the burying of leftover Superman cartridges for that first movie
and seventy eight at the Ebil, California landfill, which is
(41:01):
right across the street from the building. Iran, something you
would not be able to do today because of environmental restrictions.
Um like the ET cartridge, Superman would fly around, pick
up Lois Lane and rescue her from some villains. The
only problem Superman kept dropping her and she would plumme
it to the ground. That's a bug. It's so funny.
It's just so similar to eat. The cartridge was rushed
(41:23):
into production was a huge flop. I thought you might
find the Warner Brothers tie interesting. Sure that is from
Gordon Selig. Nice Thanks a lot, Gordon. That was a
good one. I think I see he runs his own
I T business now too. Yeah, man, that's that's what happens. Um.
So if you want to get in touch of this,
(41:45):
like Gordon did with a great story that kind of
rounds out something we were talking about. We love those things.
You can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.
You can join us on Facebook dot com. It's slash
stuff you should know. You can hang out with the
Sun Insta Graham. I've got my own site that Josh
clark Way. And then, as always, you can send us
a nice email to Stuff Podcasts at how stuff works
(42:08):
dot com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Is
it how stuff works dot com m
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