May 30, 2023 • 53 mins
For a moment Milli Vanilli was the hottest musical act in the world. Then came the news that it was just that, an act, and the fall came swiftly and humiliatingly. Now, 30 years on, a look back yields not so much a cautionary tale as a very sad story.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck
and here's Jerry too, and this is stuff you shouldette know.
You know it's true. Girl. Oo ooh ooh.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I love that you had this idea to do one
on the Milli Vanilly story. Sure, I love that we're
doing it. Yeah, And I was surprised about how much
the US Army played in the story of Milli Vanilly.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, technically you could say that the US Army produced
Millie Vanilli.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Initially, Yes, we'll point it out. Early on, there were
just quite a few references. I was like, there's the
army again.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, for sure, and even still today, but this was
a full three decades later. Millie Vanilli is still generally
looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just
a joke. But when it's one of those stories, just
like everything else, when you really dig into it's way
more complex, way more complicated. And even when it's apparent
(01:15):
and clear that you got okay, here's the villain, if
you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like,
kind of make some great points here, too. It's just complicated.
But one thing that I hope you guys get out
of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at
the time we're in over their head. Were certainly not
(01:36):
responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanilli.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Now, they did as they were told, and like you said,
they were in the early twenties. I have a lot
of I got a lot of sympathy for these.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Guys, for sure, I do too, and I have even
more now.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, all right, so you mentioned the what'd you call
him a villain or the orchestrator?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Would I call them both? Technically?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
All right? Well, we're talking about a man named Frank Farrian.
He was born as Frank's I'm sorry, Franz Ruther nineteen
forty one. Grew up in Germany. Big fan of music,
big fan of soul music, American soul music, yes, and
was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and
(02:24):
sang in clubs where United States Army soldiers would.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Go, yeah, and he's sang what you'd call today blue
eyed soul. But this was before blue eyed soul was acceptable,
at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like
the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you're no,
you shouldn't be doing that. Stop doing that. So he
was thwarted as an actual artist from the get go,
(02:50):
and he moved into producing in the early seventies. And
there's a quote from him in the early nineties in
the midst of all this, and he said, you know
the I know an other people are figuring out that
the producer is now the most important person in the band,
not the artists. And if that didn't reflect the future,
then I don't know what does. Yeah, But he became
(03:11):
a producer, and he became a pretty successful producer almost
out of the gate.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, in Europe and then eventually, obviously thanks to Milli
Vanilly worldwide. But in Europe he was super successful with
a group called Bonie M b O N Y capital M.
I don't know if they had an exclamation pointer in
Tero bang or something, that would have been kind of cool, sure,
but in Tero Bang would have been perfect, actually yes,
(03:36):
because you're like, what is a bonie M? But Boniem
was a group disco funk. Olivia described them as europop.
They were all these things. When this album came out,
and this is I mean pretty obvious that this laid
the groundwork for Milli Vanilly because Farian Frank Farrian sang
the songs himself and hired four model singers from Caribbean
(04:01):
as the touring band, and between seventy six and eighty five,
over a nine year period, they had eight studio albums
and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the hugest
thing ever, but they were big over there, not here.
But he had laid this groundwork of this model of
him or someone else singing, and other people that had
(04:22):
a prettier face would be on the cover as the.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Group, yeah, or touring as the group too, all of it,
and you just wouldn't disclose that. You just you know,
not mentioned that kind of thing. Yeah, and bony m
became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who
was one of the i think one of the models
who was hired, became the group's actual lead singer. But
(04:44):
he when he went to go into the studio and
record tracks after he left and the album came out,
he'd find that his tracks have been re recorded over
with Farian singing.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So that was just how it was Farian was in charge.
You just had to go along with it, probably because
they signed a not so great contract with them.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's right. Now, we turned to the beginnings of the
Millie Vanilli story when Frank Farrion stole a song basically
called Girl you Know It's True.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It was written by a group of people.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
There was a Baltimore hip hop group named New Mars
in um RX collaborated with a singer from a group
called StarPoint name I Guess Kai or key at a Yemo,
and then a man named Bill Peedaway Junior who became
(05:41):
a really big person in the music business like work
with Jay Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people,
but at the time was working at a gas station
and got together with them, which included as part of
Newmark's a guy named Kevin Lyles who is now the
CEO three hundred Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl
you Know It's True by New Marks, you will recognize
it immediately because not only did Frank Ferrian steal the song,
when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He
just basically gussied it up a little bit more than
New Marks was capable of, because again he was a
(06:23):
really talented producer, but he didn't. It wasn't an interpretation
or a rearrangement of Girl. You know, it's true. He
just redid it exactly how New Marks had done it right. So,
just just to put this in perspective, the fraud that
was Millie Vanilli started out with the theft of a song,
their biggest their second biggest hit.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Actually yeah, and this song he was able to steal
it because it was never a big hit. I think
it's sold about eight thousand records and in some regions
of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago
is what Livia found a little bit of airplay, but
it was not a big song in the United States.
But very Key Studio Records, who was the indie label
(07:04):
to put it out. They also put it out in
Europe and this is where this is where Frank heard
it in Germany and was like, I can steal this thing.
It's not a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Exactly, only eight thousand records, no problem. Yeah, So I'm not.
I didn't see if he ever saw the permission. There's
like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate
with New Marks and was either ignored or was told no,
that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here
that you just have to take with a grain of salt,
because there are a lot of different people with a
(07:35):
lot of different self interests that gave their own version
of events. So just about everything we say you should
probably take with a grain of salt, including that. It's
entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Farrion that
he didn't try to get in touch with them at all.
He just decided he was going to take that song yeah,
and deal with it later, deal with to fall out later.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
They didn't New Marks didn't know that that happened until
they heard Millie Vanilli singing it on the radio.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Can you imagine how mad man you would be.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, they got they got paid later, and they got
credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits. But
it took that to get that credit and money.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So when Frank Ferrian put together his own version of girl,
you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Palladis or Polaitis,
they weren't even around yet. They were not part of
the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrian at that point.
They were well known around the Munich club scene as
(08:34):
being like a couple of hot dudes, yeah who knew
how to dance. Sure, and I believe that's kind of
where Farian caught on to them. For sure, we'll see
he invited them to come over. But before that, we
should talk a little bit about Rob and fab.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, so fab like you said, his name is Fabrice.
Morvin was born on Guadaloupe, is a Caribbean island, raised
in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a
vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in nineteen eighty three.
And how it just hurts to think about.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I know, trampolines are so dangerous. They are so dangerous. Everybody.
If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our Trampoline episode,
go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Ruby asked for one. I was like, no way, So
couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore, turned to dancing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Rob Polaitis was born in New York City and the
son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here
we go again, an African American US soldier, but was
ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted
at the age of four by a German couple. And
so he and for Briests have something in common. There
(09:50):
are two black men in the nineteen seventies growing up
in these not completely white cultures but kind of devoid
of lot of black culture at least, facing racism from
classmates and stuff like that. And they bonded over this.
I think it was Rob who talked about finally in
(10:10):
his teenage years, Michael Jackson became such a big deal
that all all of a sudden, like you know, even
where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy
to be black, and he wasn't like it's picked on,
I guess. But super handsome guy was a model obviously
very early on in a DJ and a breakdancer, and
(10:31):
a good enough breakdancer that in nineteen eighty four he
went to New York for a breakdancing competition, which is
where he met fab who was there for a dance seminar.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Very fortuitous, yeah, even more like they didn't meet in
New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part
of that trip to New York. While he was over
on the across the Pond, and that's where he met Fabrice.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
All right, in New York.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet
in New York. Well, so it was a very fortuitous
chance meeting. And apparently, you know, they they got along
and everything. And I saw that they ran into each
other again in Munich. I don't know if they, you know,
kept in touch or anything like that, but either way,
once they were both back in Munich living in the
same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and
(11:21):
really knock the socks off of the people at the
clubs around here.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I'll tell you where they didn't meet. Kansas City, It's true.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's like, was it New York or LA? Where else
could it be? It was not Kansas City, It's true.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
No, or I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't
have met.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Arlington, Virginia, Topeka. Sure they could have met in Arlington,
just outside of d C. Yeah, all right, I mean
it's just right across the river. So what are they
doing in DC meeting the president? I would guess model
model you in Yeah, they were doing break dancing for
Ronald Reagan. All right, model you was a fun little
impro exercise.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Sure, So, like you said, they met back in Munich.
They would eventually get the attention of Frank Farrion, who
was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think
he knew everybody in that scene in Germany and got
in touch with them on New Year's Day nineteen eighty eight,
came together very quickly, brought him to his studio in Frankfurt,
(12:24):
played them girl. You know it's true. They signed a
record contract that day, where in which Frank Farrion said,
I will put out at least ten songs a year
by you guys. And as far as Robin fab were concerned,
and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we
are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't
great singers.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
They also later said that they didn't read the contract,
and the fact that they met and signed a contract
on New Year's Day in nineteen eighty eight certainly supports that.
At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel
in to look at it. Yeah, so they just trusted
Frank Feryon. They had been looking for singing parts. So
they just assumed that that's what he was saying, We're
going to make records with you guys. That is not
(13:07):
what had happened. And by this time Farian already knew
he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't
like he had them over heard them sing. It was like,
I've got to figure something else out. Yeah, he was like,
I love your look, and you guys are going to
be the lip syncing frontman of Millie Vanilli And I'm
just not going to tell you that at first.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows,
I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers
to record Girl. You know it's true. Some gentlemen by
the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US
soldiers once again. He met them in Germany when Farian
was working there. And then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw,
(13:49):
is a guy who did the rap portion of that song.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about
They're not talking about them. They have to be speaking
about that one part where he just suddenly goes like,
I'm in love with you, girl, you on my mind.
That Yeah, that's what they're calling rap.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Sure, what else is it?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Like? Rhythmic singing, that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't
know about that one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah that was the rap part.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay, sorry, Charles, you take issue. I guess I did. Definitely,
I definitely did. Even today, like I'm not looking down
on Milli Vanilli, like, sure that was not rap? All right,
Well that Blondie song was more rap than than raping girl,
you know it's true.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, So at any rate, those three guys did with
it whatever they did on tape as the real singers,
slash rappers, slash How did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers,
rhythmic singers, rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it
wasn't like, Hey, we're going to be this new band,
We're going to go out on tour. I think Howell
(14:55):
was in his forties and he was like, I'm not
going to tour farians was It was just Fairian's deal
from the beginning, as I'm going to have these two
super handsome model guys in there, you guys are going
to sing and they I think they ended up listing
them as backup singers on the record. The guys who
really sang it right, and that was just that was
(15:15):
the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin Fab.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yes, I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that
that was that they were not going to be singing.
I don't know, because when he played them the song Girl,
you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental
at that point.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Oh really interesting, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So that it wasn't like he was playing this for
them and saying like, you guys are just going to
pretend you're doing you're singing this like. I don't know
when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long.
And just as like a little side note before we
go take a break. Where did the name Millie Vanilli
come from? What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Chuck Well, who knows. There's a bunch of stories. Robin
Fab said that it meant pop, positive energy, and Turkish,
which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for,
you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But also does the words Millie Vanilli sound Turkish in
any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish
to my.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Ninears definitely does not.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Some people said it was a discotheque in Berlin by
that name. Some people said Frank Ferring's assistant, Ingrid Siegith
was her nickname was Milli, And then other people said
it might have been and I'm not sure about this
at all, but it might have been inspired by Scritty Piliiti,
the great pop English pop band who is very underrated.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think, yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've
got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy.
It's gritty, pility is great, it is, and that's a
good song. But I just wanted to take this moment
because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of
the greatest song of the eighties, The entire eighties, the
entire decade is owner of a lonely heart.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yes, oh, I just heard that song.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I can. It's one of those ones that like, I'll
hear it on the radio or in the mall or something,
because you know there's still malls and I will never
be like, oh this song. I can listen to that
song every single time it comes on. Yeah, it is
so well done. It's so complex, but it's so catchy.
It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from
the eighties.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, movie Yourself, A great start, Yeah, great end, Greade.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Middle, Yeah, the whole shebang. I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I liked the whole album. What was it was a
series of numbers. I wanted to say nine to two
and O, but that can't be.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Oh you ate one two, I can't remember. I liked
it though. They had that great song.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I'll leave it from that record too.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's literally the only song I've heard off of that record.
That might be the only Yes song I've ever heard.
It doesn't matter. It's still the greatest song of the eighties.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You've heard roundabout probably does it go round about?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You've got to lose control on the round about.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
All Right, we're gonna take a break and we'll talk
about the deception right after this.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, Chuck, So in April nineteen eighty eight, you said
that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out
this entire shebang, especially starting from when they reached the
United States till their downfall was less than two years.
This was all compressed in just a couple of years.
And the whole thing started in April nineteen eighty eight,
(18:54):
and after Frank Farrion had his completed recording of Girl
Robin Fab started touring Spain in France, so they were
promoting it. They were singing this right, so they by
this point Farian had said, Hey, you guys, just go
go out and just, you know, lip sync to this one,
(19:14):
and then when we do the next album, you guys
can actually sing, and that was one of the big
reasons that they bought into it. So by this time,
by April nineteen eighty eight, they were well aware what
was going on.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and by the way, dear listener, if you hear
a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if
it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk.
There are some construction going on next door, and I
can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
They have minds of their own.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
They have minds and they have a job to do,
so they're doing it. But you may hear like a
low level bump every now and then, so I can't
hear anything all right, So maybe it's not coming through.
I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this
song was big in Germany. Like you said, did you
say that I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany,
(20:01):
became a number one hit in Germany, and you know,
was like sort of a thing in Europe early on
before it got to America, and right out of the bat,
right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe
when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper
guy who Josh doesn't think raps no, basically came out
to the media in Europe and was like, by the way,
(20:23):
that's me And then that got shut down really really quickly.
He says it's because he was threatened by Frank Farrion.
Frank Farrian says, no, I paid him like mid you know,
one hundred and fifty grand to keep his mouth shut.
But at any rate, this is the first time that
like the cat was out of the bag a little bit,
and rumors were kind of going around to the point
(20:47):
basically where on a radio station in Europe they had
a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are
you really singing this? Like sing on the air to
prove that you're really good singers?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right? I saw this described as by the time you know,
it finally came out, very poorly kept secret in the
music industry. Yeah, but that is definitely where it would
have started for sure. Also, people who met them and
were in the music industry where like, these guys did
not sing that they were talked about as Hans and Franz.
(21:20):
They sounded like Hans and Franz, is how one interviewer
put it. Because they have very thick European accents, and
apparently Rob no Fab. His English was so shaky that
he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a
word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most
of the time.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, I mean in their favor, Like the way someone
sings is not often not the way that they talk, right.
But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know.
It's just like a lot of people early on were like,
something's not adding up here when you interview.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
These guys, right, exactly, all right.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So Rob and Fab are still beating this drum, and
this is something that you'll see as a team through
this whole thing. They never ever stopped asking to sing
their own stuff. Very important pleading with Frank Ferry and
to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to
do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel
great about the arrangement at all, and that they wanted
to sing. They wanted to they thought they were good
(22:23):
singers and they wanted to sing.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
They also felt like they were trapped in I think
Rob Pudder fab put it as a golden prison. Oh yeah,
they've been having twenty thousand dollars advances, fuzzy handcuffs from
Frank Ferry and very early on, and these guys like
to party. There's no two ways around that. So these
(22:45):
two twenty five year old good looking honks who were
suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene
and now they were the most popular dudes at the
clubs in Munich with money twenty grand each. Yeah, it
didn't stick around for very long. So they would have
owed that back to Frank Ferran and they were like, well,
(23:05):
now we're really stuck, Like we're not only kind of
looped into this lie, we're financially like obligate.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Into this yea, yeah, absolutely, I think as again, like
you get a lot of stories from the people involved.
Rob said later on that while this was happening in
the early days, he got in touch with people from
Boni m and they said, by the way, this Frank
Farring guy's a rat and he wouldn't let us sing,
(23:33):
and he sang the songs and it was all a
big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort
of saw the writing on the walls, like we're in
this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing.
But their star was rising. In early nineteen eighty nine
is when they hit the United States when they signed
with Arista Records division of BMG. Who was the president
(23:55):
of BMG at the time was Clive Davis, legendary producer.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
There's a really a.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Documentary on him, by the way, that I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I think he was the president of Arista.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh, I thought he was a president of BMG.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I don't think so. I got the I thought he
was Arista, but yeah, you might be right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well either way, Clive Davis is a legend no matter
who he works for. Yeah, and great documentary on him.
And they signed them on the strength of Girl you
Know It's True, released it as a single at the
end of January nineteen eighty nine, and then repackaged the
European version of the album for the United States as
(24:32):
the album title Girl you Know It's True. Did some remixes,
took some songs off, put some on, and then released
the full album. And the dates are important here because
of how quickly it was in March of nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Okay, so they the singles released at the end of
January nineteen eighty nine. The album comes out in March
of nineteen eighty nine. And I referred earlier to Girl
you Know It's True as their one of their second
biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts.
I say only, but it's kind of surprising because that's
the one that everybody thinks of with Milli Vanilli. Maybe
(25:07):
it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it
hit number two in April. So the following month overall,
that album worldwide sold eleven million copies. Mm hm. It
is so hard to sell eleven million copies of a record,
It's astounding. And seven million of those copies were sold
in the United States alone.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, so they had a number two hit in April.
They had a number one with baby Don't Forget My
Number in July, had another number one with Girl I'm
Gonna Miss You in September.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You may maybe watch that video. I watched it too,
just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you
watch the part where he goes, oh, I'll think of
it later, but there's a there's like a refrain that
he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not
lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, well music videos too, though a lot of that lipsing.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
He wasn't great, to be fair, true, but this was
the point. Yeah, And I guess in hindsight, you're looking
for it, so you could see it. But yeah, she
seemed to have noticed it pretty early on and then
blame it on.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
The rain was their final number one in November, and
then All or Nothing was a number four in February
of ninety So they had number one hits in I'm Sorry,
number two hit in April, then number one hits in July, September, November,
and then a number four in February of the next year. Right,
that's as hot as any band in the history of music.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yes, dude. Five singles released, all five in the top
five Billboard charts, three number ones. It's astounding. Like I
knew Milli Vanilli was big, but when you see it
on paper like that, uh huh, Like you said, like
there's very few people that have ever matched that kind
of thing. And they were just man the definition of
a flash in the pan. They just came on and
(26:55):
blew up and blew out in no time at all.
Tune in, turn out, turnout, tune in. What is it? Okay?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, So they figured that they would be better served
and probably a little more protected and have more leverage
if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb
of Frank Ferian. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just
a few months later in June of that year. They
this is my senior of high school, by the way,
just to put that perspective.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right, I was thirteen going into I was this eighth.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Grade, okay, And by this time I was listening to
The Cure and Ram and the Smiths and Excess and
all that stuff. Like this is when I was like
starting in like eighty six, eighty seven on, I started
getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool, but I,
like everyone knew this stuff. You couldn't escape. But I
was an MTV kid, so I knew all these songs.
(27:47):
It wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them
all still.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The whole world was singing Millie Vanilli at the time,
but baby, are you kidding me? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So they sign and this is a pretty key detail too,
with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy
Gallon of Gallen Morey Associates and.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
You remember him right?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Oh wait, where was that from?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Is Dolly Parton's manager who truss over?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah? Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
He managed Milli Vanilli and Dolly Parton.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Who else do you need?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah? Really?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
All right? So nineteen eighty nine they have blown up.
They became part of the first Club MTV tour alongside
was not Was Information Society, Tone Loake and Paula Abdul.
It's a good tour, good tour. But like the suspicion
that started in Europe followed them here, and like we
(28:41):
mentioned with the interviews and their accents and broken English, like,
things started to go a little south here as well,
to the point where, like just a few months after
they came here, they stopped doing radio and TV interviews.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, they would only do print. But ironically they were
allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a
Super Mario three cartoon where they they play themselves. But
they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because
they won't performed for her. And if you go watch
that clips of that that cartoon, you're like, wow, those
guys really did not sound anything like they sounded on
(29:15):
the record.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I saw a clip. I'm sure we both watched like
tons of clips, but there was one clip where they
were trying to prove they could sing and they did
this little a cappella harmony bit and they were just flat.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything,
and fab actually can sing a little bit. I think
Rob couldn't sing that great, huh, But they you know,
they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like
did you get a load of that? But it was
super flat.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
It was. It was not great.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But I think like producers have done more with less
with auto tune and all that stuff. For sure.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That is a big thing. That's that's something to kind
of like put it into context, like this is this
is maybe the world's entrade to what producers exactly did
and in a way kind of established it is okay
to start messing with the talent's abilities. Yeah, it made it.
It was the inflection point where it went from an
(30:16):
emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package
an artists and sell them. And a lot of people
blame MTV for this happening in MTV says, that's absurd, right, So.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
We have to talk about what happened in July, and
again this is they had four of their hits after
July of that year, despite the fact that at a
concert in Bristol, Connecticut, there were lip syncing very famously.
It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. Girl,
you know it's true. There's a very brief clip on
(30:50):
it from a VH one special I Think Behind the
Music where although Livia says that Variety said it wasn't
as dramatic as go you know it's, girl, you know
it's but that's what it showed in the video, and
they they didn't know how to handle it. They if
they would have ridden it out, they probably would have
been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers
(31:12):
lip sync and everyone kind of knows this at least
parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there,
they might have been okay. But they freaked out and
Rob ran off stage. In a panic, basically.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, totally. And it was Downtown Julie Brown, who I
guess was touring with the club MTV tour, oh yeah,
who talked him into going back out. And I was
reading a Variety article written in twenty twenty about this
and they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And
I suspect that article was written by a millennial.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, who probably doesn't even know whabbah blabblah blabbah.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Julie down dumb. Do you remember that? Yeah? Totally.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I forgot all about that and it just popped into
my head. Downtown Julie Brown.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah. And what's funny is one of the reasons why
she went by Downtown Julie Brown is because there was
another are equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the
same time. Remember the redhead of Julie Brown or kind
of a weird I feel like Phoebe Hermann adjacent type character.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
No? I'm not, okay, look up Julie Brown. All right, okay,
I will fine. You have with you right now. Yeah,
I'll keep talking if you want to.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit so that was
like a big deal.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
That Bristol, Connecticut show to them. They felt like that
that was the beginning of the end, and even still
in later interviews they would point to that as like
that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanilli.
They knew that this this act that they've been carrying
on was unraveling, basically, and they later said that they
were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time, and they
(32:54):
kept partying. A lot of people say that they kept
partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if
that's true not, but they it's understandable that they would
have been kind of stressed.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
By the way Julie Brown. I totally recognize her now, sure,
and that's who I was thinking of. And I might
have said Julie t Nuda. It was Judy Tanuda, the comedian.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah you said Judy.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I think I did. Okay, I think I thought that
was Judy Tananuda. But I totally remember Julie Brown now.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
But she's similar in character, not quite as like over
the top as Judy Tanuda, but similar in.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
A flamboyant Yeah, yeah, for sure, she was great. I
wasn't listening to you Where Were You?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous
all the time and now they felt like this thing
was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol, Connecticut
show the beginning of the end.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like
Millie Vanilli is having all this chart success, but they
were never a critical darling. No, in fact, they were
and I think people for sure piled on a lot
more after the Secret came out, but even before that,
they became a little bit of a symbol of what
(34:02):
serious music critics kind of thought was the unraveling of
pop music and how shallow it was and how like
overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst
version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind
of course corrected.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, And a lot of that came from the usual
suspects the rock community, who yeah, arranged themselves as like
the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah.
And now that we're at this part, I really regret
talking about whether that was rap or not and the
girl you know it's true song because it's essentially the
same thing. But yes, Milli Vanilli was an easy target,
(34:42):
even before they were outed as frauds, right, Yeah, so
I think that made it all the more sweet for
the people who were rooting against them to have their
wildest dreams come true and Milli Vanilli be outed as frauds,
Like there are people rooting against them again though, like
this is a this is a really complicating factor, Chuck,
(35:04):
how much of Millie Vanilli's popularity then, if the music
wasn't that good, or you know, if you were a
music critic, how much of Milli Vanilli's like success came
from Robin Fab and the work that they were doing.
They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they
did one hundred and seven cities in an eight month tour.
(35:25):
That's a lot of work. And also people loved to
let like their look, They thought they were hot. They
loved their dances, that that little dance move where they
faced one another and just like kind of ran in
place in front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did
that dance move, whether they were serious or not, everyone
(35:45):
was doing that dance bood. So, how much of their
popularity can you you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab
And I would say quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh absolutely, I mean one hundred and seven shows. I'm
fairly tired from our big three show swing that we
just did.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, by the way, way, thank you DC Boston in
Toronto for fun times.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, it was great shows. These guys also didn't do
themselves a lot of favors. I think, in particular Rob,
who was a little bit more vocal, just because I
think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones,
and I you know, looking back though, like the guy
was probably scared and defensive. But he would say some
(36:24):
kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article or
a lest stuff that wouldn't do him any favors. I
can't remember which magazine, but when I think it's time,
there's a quote here where he says, musically, we're more
talented than any Bob Dylan. Musically, we're more talented than
Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger. His lines are not clear. He
don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the
(36:46):
new modern rock and roll, I'm the new Elvis.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So Rob said that that was wildly taking out of context,
that he didn't say anything like that. The clothes direct quote, right,
I know, But the closest that he says he said
was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation
and they're huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted
or not, this is a potential pr disaster for this
(37:15):
obviously short lived group. So everybody involved, the record label,
Ferry and their managers all decided that they needed to
go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain
this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed
to work a medley of The Beatles, the Rolling Stones
(37:36):
and Bob Dylan into their show and they were going
to go forward on it, and Robin fab or the
two that had the sense to be like, that's a
terrible idea, We're not going to do that, So they
dropped that. But that was how they were going to
show that they didn't think they were bigger than The Stones,
the Beatles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of
(37:58):
their songs at their lives. Great idea, I think so too.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
All right, let's take our second break and we're gonna
come back and talk about the rest right after this.
(38:34):
All right, So here's the question, which is and Lvia
titles this section that who knew what when, because that's
sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager,
Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot
of people on the inside in the music scene knew
this was going on in the summer of nineteen eighty nine,
(38:56):
like while they were putting out these songs and having
these big hits. There's a guy named Todd Headley who
used to work for Milli Vanilly. I believe he ended
up being their manager at a certain point afterward when
they were just Robin Fab. But he said, you know,
everyone that was connected to this knew this. I don't
(39:16):
know like necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far
as Arista goes. They said, well, we didn't know it.
Frank Ferrian I guess I bet you there was some
handshake deal or something going on. Yeah, because he took
He basically came out very vehemently saying that like, no,
I Rista didn't know anything about this, right, But everyone
knew basically on the inside.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yes, But all of those people publicly said that they
did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record
company being like, we had no idea. These guys didn't
sing on the on the tracks. Yeah, but that's what
they said. So and the whole time. Remember, just bear
in mind they kept trying to fight to sing, like
their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry unto
(39:59):
let them sing on the next album. Right, And so
finally I believe that the whole thing came to a head.
Oh yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry. There was evidence
that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew
that this was going on, because they seed him on
letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let
(40:21):
them sing on the next album. So if Clive Davis
wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album?
Why wouldn't you let him sing? If he didn't look
into it, that's so bad. The implication is that he
wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what
that meant.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
So the whole thing came to a head with the
nineteen ninety Grammy ceremony, right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's right. They were, you know, obviously going to be
a strong contender for Best New Artists. As the story goes,
Clive Davis did not want to submit them because he
knew it was a fraud, but Sandy Gallon and the
management company said nope, We're going to submit him. They
won Best of course, they won Best New Art Artists
(41:00):
at the Grammy who else would and they performed at
the ceremony, lip synced at the ceremony.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
They owned the Grammys that year, they did, and.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
The producer the Grammys was basically later on, just like,
you know, everybody really sings. Is one of the few
times in forty years of doing this that I've let
someone lip sync. But that is where things kind of
went downhill. I think the Grammys later said, like, all
you had to do was put somewhere on the record,
even in the smallest print, like Millie Vanilli is unless
(41:31):
the original singers, But like, we can't let you keep
these Grammys, So we got to take them back.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Right, And they actually fully intended to. Apparently the day
after the Grammys said we want our Grammys back, Michael Green,
the president of it, said we want our Grammys back,
something along those lines. They had already had a press
comfort schedule where they intended to give them back.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They'll not give them back, give them to those singers, right.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Initially they had wanted to, and apparently the Grammys were like,
do not give those to anybody. It's not up to
you to give them the anyone. And the question is
whether or not they were going to give the Grammy
to the next runner up. I can't remember. I think
Tone Loke, Information Society, I can't remember who else, But
they didn't. There was no Grammy for Best New Artists
(42:17):
given out for nineteen ninety because Millie Vanilli's was taken back.
And at that press conference, they had their voice coach
stand up and say, yeah, these guys can sing. I
totally attest to that, And yeah, that was where you
mentioned earlier that they kind of like wrapped and sang
(42:37):
just these little snippets to show that they could, and
it wasn't very good. Yeah, but that was It was
a very fateful press conference. But if you watch it,
they don't seem at all nervous. They seem like they're
soaking in the love still. And I read that during
this time they expected the music industry to take them
(42:59):
back with arms, because they'd done so much to make
Millie Vanilla huge. That just did not happen, all.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Right, So that the Grammy snapo was on November nineteenth,
nineteen ninety. This happened because five days earlier, Frank Farrion
finally came out because these guys would not stop asking
him to sing, and it was not only annoying to
Frank Farrian, but he was in between a rock and
a hard places, like can this thing even go on anymore?
(43:27):
So he figured it can't go on. I'm going to
hold a press conference. I'm going to expose everything. He
disclosed it all and he said, you know, still Arista
didn't know anything about this, and Arista they were this.
This guy, the VP of Operations, Roy Lott, had a
quote where he was like, seven million albums embarrassing? Am
I embarrassed? You know, I don't mean the njustified the means,
(43:49):
but we sold seven million albums And I'm like, dude,
that's the very definition of the end justified thing exactly.
I don't think you know what that means.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah. So there was a very wide ranging impact from this,
like we've kind of talked about, like a lot of
people pointed to this and said, see, see, like this
isn't about the actual music or the creativity or the
talent anymore. It's about packaging people as artists so much
so that they didn't even sing on the album. That
was the big thing. If it didn't come out that
(44:19):
they were lip syncing in concerts, they could have pointed
to everybody from Janet Jackson to Paul Abduel and said,
they lip SYNCD too. You can't really sing well when
you're doing these incredible choreographed dances throughout a whole show.
So of course their lip syncing. It wasn't that it
was that they didn't even sing on the album, that
they had nothing to do with the music aside from
(44:40):
the visuals. That that's what really kind of got everybody.
But one of the things that it definitely exposes that
this is not a standalone incident.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
No, And it was well known in the music industry
that this happened. Martha Wall she was part of the
Weather Girls who had the great song It's Raining Men.
She was the one who sang that part on the
and See Music Factory hit. They again, they hired a
model slash singer to sort of pretend like she had
done it.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Without her knowledge. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
The Village People had always been rumored to have not
been the actual singers like that first version of the
Village People. And I tried to find out if that
was true, and I really couldn't see anything definite, but
a lot of people were doing this kind of thing
here and there. Lawsuits started to be people I think
were just sort of fed up, though, And it was
the end of the eighties, and I think people, I
(45:30):
think styles were changing and tastes were changing, and they're like,
we don't want fake music, Like you should start putting
like truth on labels, like this wasn't recorded by this,
like truth and music labeling. Fans filed class action lawsuits
about Millie Vanilly and it was settled by getting up
to three dollars from BMG and Arista if you could say,
(45:54):
like here's my concert ticket or here's the album that
I bought fairy and and you kind of alluded to
this early on, and I sort of agree, like it
was a fraud, but he was also like this is
pop music, and like who cares in Europe? Like no
one cares, It's no big deal. Like everyone in America
got so riled up about this, and like, you know,
(46:15):
these guys made a couple of million bucks.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
I made money.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
The guys who really sang it ended up making money,
Like who cares?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
And I sort of get that a little bit because
there's a lot more things to be getting a huff about,
but I also get it in a way.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, and I think now we do. But we do
now because of the rough transition that we went through
by being so so let down by Miller Vanilli, I
wasn't let down flyar so Robin Fab again. They were
expecting to just basically be welcome back into the fold
pretty quickly. That this was basically just a speed bump,
(46:53):
and now, more than anything, they were released from this
golden prison they were in. They didn't have to be
stressed out about people finding out their secret any longer.
And now finally they could do their own music, and
they actually released an album called Robin Fab using their
real voices. They showed up on the Arsenio Hall Show
to sing live, which they had turned down before because
(47:14):
the Arsenio Hall Show required performers to perform live, no
lip syncing. So now this is kind of like a
triumphant appearance on the Arsenio Hall Show. Their album sold
two thousand copies in the US and that was it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah, it was a big flop. I did not know
until today that they did a cover version on that
album of Cheap Tricks I want you to want me.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Oh, I didn't know that either.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Listen to it.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I definitely will. But so a lot of people are like, yeah,
of course it was a flop. They were frauds. I
think that one of the reasons, probably the biggest reason
it was a flop, is that they released it in
nineteen ninety three, and nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety three
were situated into totally different worlds because Nevermind had come
out in September nineteen ninety one, and no one cared
(48:01):
a lick about anything that seens THEE Music Factory or
Black Fox or Millie Vanilly was putting out. All they
wanted was more and more Nirvana and grunge, and give
it to us, give us Pearl Jam, give us all
that stuff. That's all we care about. So I think
that that at least accounts for a significant reason why
it was such a flop.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, bad timing for sure, and for I mean that
changed all of music. That's when the metal bands were all,
I go, what are we supposed to do now? It
was a big transition. As far as Robin fab If
you haven't seen the behind the music, some pretty sad
stuff happened afterward. Rob had a pretty rough life after that.
(48:39):
He had a suicide attempt in ninety one. He was
in rehab quite a few times. He was arrested a
few times. They eventually were going to get back together
in nineteen ninety eight to work on something, but on
April seventh of that year, he was found dead in
a hotel room. And everyone basically agrees that it was
an accidental overdose of alcohol and pills, and Fab, you know,
(49:05):
was heartbroken and put out a pretty app statement I
think was Millie Vanilli was not a disgrace. The only
disgrace is how Rob died all alone. Where were the
ones that pushed us to the top, who made millions?
And it's just that familiar story of sort of getting
used and then kicked to the curb and forgotten about,
(49:25):
you know, chewed up by a bit more powerful people.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, exactly, so Fab. Actually they were both really like
into drugs and drinking, and Fab made it out. I
read that he paid for one of Rob's stints in rehab,
so he made it out. He still sings today. In
twenty fifteen, he joined up with John Davis, one of
the original singers of Millie Vanilli, and they toured I
(49:51):
think as face meets Voice. Yeah. So they performed some
of Milli Vanilli's songs on tour. And one thing that
I am so looking forward to I can't even stand
it is apparently, finally, at long last, we're going to
get a Milli Vanilli biopic. Yeah. Did you see these
guys that are playing them? No? Is it dead on?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Oh? I'm texting you right now.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Dude, better than ice Cube son playing ice Cube.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Oh, I didn't know that was happening.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
No, that was in Uh what was the NWA biopic?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Was he in that? Yeah? He played ice Cube. That
was ice Cube's kid.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Straight out of con Oh no, ice Cube. I thought
I thought you said Vanilla Ice.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can't remember his name. The he was
in Cocaine Beer Too, the movie you hated it?
Speaker 1 (50:39):
I know. Vanilla Ice biopic, by the way, is called
cool as Ice.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Is that a real thing too?
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, but it's not really a biopic, but it kind
of is. Did you see the picture?
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Do you have your phone?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I do?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Sorry, look at these guys, two unknowns. I think they
spent years trying to find the right people. But it's
a guy named Ilan Bin Ali is fab name tijon Niji.
I'm not sure to pronounce that. I go as the
best as I can do. And they look these guys up.
They are in costume as Millie Vanilli, and it's uncanny
(51:12):
how much they look like those guys.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It definitely is. It's pretty pretty well, that's really something.
I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
So I hope it's going to be good.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
And supposedly a lot of people who are involved in
the actual band, like or their relatives, are associate or
executive producers on this movie too, so it should be
pretty authentic.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah. I think the icing on top is the executive
producer was the was that guy who runs three hundred
Entertainment now who was the original lyricist for Girl You Know?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
It's true?
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Pretty amazing, isn't that cool?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Very cool? And if you want to see something really cute.
When you me and I were doing our Milli Vanilli
research on YouTube last night, we ran across a channel
called Africa React and it's this super cute girl who
listens to songs that she'd never heard for the first
time and it's just reaction videos. But one of the
ones she did was Girl you Know it's true, and
she gave an official thumbs up to it. It's really cute. Cool. Yeah,
(52:05):
those were fun. You got anything else? Nothing else? All right, everybody?
That means it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
I'm gonna call this. My husband fell asleep at your
show in Boston. Hey, guys, got tickets to the Medford
show and was excited to see folks live for the
first time. My husband agreed to join me and met
me in Medford after a few days at a work
conference in New York. We took our seats, and just
as the lights went down and you all appeared on stage,
we laughed at your jokes, we owed at the topic,
(52:35):
and settled in to be educated. Much to my surprise,
I noticed my husband next to me doing the head
bob and bouncing, beginning to nod off. About ten minutes
in Wow, he dozed off all I did my best
to keep from leaning over onto the guy next to us.
He finally did wake up after the second commercial break
and enjoyed the ending. He claims that I've been conditioning
(52:55):
him to fall asleep when stuff he should know starts,
but I believe it may have been and the let
down from the excitement of the conference and the work trip,
but we both had a great time. Wouldn't hesitate to
see you live again someday, and thanks so much for
taking a trip up north. I'm not gonna read Maggie's
last name because her husband may be embarrassed, so that
is just from Maggie in the Northeast.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Thanks a lot, Maggie, that's hilarious. The idea of your
husband I'm falling asleep to us normally and then having
it half an in person too because he's so easy.
I love it. I love it too well. If you
want to be like Maggie and get in touch with us,
we love it when people do that, you can send
us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
(53:39):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck
and here's Jerry too, and this is stuff you shouldette know.
You know it's true. Girl. Oo ooh ooh.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I love that you had this idea to do one
on the Milli Vanilly story. Sure, I love that we're
doing it. Yeah, And I was surprised about how much
the US Army played in the story of Milli Vanilly.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, technically you could say that the US Army produced
Millie Vanilli.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Initially, Yes, we'll point it out. Early on, there were
just quite a few references. I was like, there's the
army again.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, for sure, and even still today, but this was
a full three decades later. Millie Vanilli is still generally
looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just
a joke. But when it's one of those stories, just
like everything else, when you really dig into it's way
more complex, way more complicated. And even when it's apparent
(01:15):
and clear that you got okay, here's the villain, if
you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like,
kind of make some great points here, too. It's just complicated.
But one thing that I hope you guys get out
of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at
the time we're in over their head. Were certainly not
(01:36):
responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanilli.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Now, they did as they were told, and like you said,
they were in the early twenties. I have a lot
of I got a lot of sympathy for these.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Guys, for sure, I do too, and I have even
more now.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, all right, so you mentioned the what'd you call
him a villain or the orchestrator?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Would I call them both? Technically?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
All right? Well, we're talking about a man named Frank Farrian.
He was born as Frank's I'm sorry, Franz Ruther nineteen
forty one. Grew up in Germany. Big fan of music,
big fan of soul music, American soul music, yes, and
was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and
(02:24):
sang in clubs where United States Army soldiers would.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Go, yeah, and he's sang what you'd call today blue
eyed soul. But this was before blue eyed soul was acceptable,
at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like
the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you're no,
you shouldn't be doing that. Stop doing that. So he
was thwarted as an actual artist from the get go,
(02:50):
and he moved into producing in the early seventies. And
there's a quote from him in the early nineties in
the midst of all this, and he said, you know
the I know an other people are figuring out that
the producer is now the most important person in the band,
not the artists. And if that didn't reflect the future,
then I don't know what does. Yeah, But he became
(03:11):
a producer, and he became a pretty successful producer almost
out of the gate.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, in Europe and then eventually, obviously thanks to Milli
Vanilly worldwide. But in Europe he was super successful with
a group called Bonie M b O N Y capital M.
I don't know if they had an exclamation pointer in
Tero bang or something, that would have been kind of cool, sure,
but in Tero Bang would have been perfect, actually yes,
(03:36):
because you're like, what is a bonie M? But Boniem
was a group disco funk. Olivia described them as europop.
They were all these things. When this album came out,
and this is I mean pretty obvious that this laid
the groundwork for Milli Vanilly because Farian Frank Farrian sang
the songs himself and hired four model singers from Caribbean
(04:01):
as the touring band, and between seventy six and eighty five,
over a nine year period, they had eight studio albums
and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the hugest
thing ever, but they were big over there, not here.
But he had laid this groundwork of this model of
him or someone else singing, and other people that had
(04:22):
a prettier face would be on the cover as the.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Group, yeah, or touring as the group too, all of it,
and you just wouldn't disclose that. You just you know,
not mentioned that kind of thing. Yeah, and bony m
became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who
was one of the i think one of the models
who was hired, became the group's actual lead singer. But
(04:44):
he when he went to go into the studio and
record tracks after he left and the album came out,
he'd find that his tracks have been re recorded over
with Farian singing.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So that was just how it was Farian was in charge.
You just had to go along with it, probably because
they signed a not so great contract with them.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's right. Now, we turned to the beginnings of the
Millie Vanilli story when Frank Farrion stole a song basically
called Girl you Know It's True.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It was written by a group of people.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
There was a Baltimore hip hop group named New Mars
in um RX collaborated with a singer from a group
called StarPoint name I Guess Kai or key at a Yemo,
and then a man named Bill Peedaway Junior who became
(05:41):
a really big person in the music business like work
with Jay Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people,
but at the time was working at a gas station
and got together with them, which included as part of
Newmark's a guy named Kevin Lyles who is now the
CEO three hundred Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl
you Know It's True by New Marks, you will recognize
it immediately because not only did Frank Ferrian steal the song,
when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He
just basically gussied it up a little bit more than
New Marks was capable of, because again he was a
(06:23):
really talented producer, but he didn't. It wasn't an interpretation
or a rearrangement of Girl. You know, it's true. He
just redid it exactly how New Marks had done it right. So,
just just to put this in perspective, the fraud that
was Millie Vanilli started out with the theft of a song,
their biggest their second biggest hit.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Actually yeah, and this song he was able to steal
it because it was never a big hit. I think
it's sold about eight thousand records and in some regions
of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago
is what Livia found a little bit of airplay, but
it was not a big song in the United States.
But very Key Studio Records, who was the indie label
(07:04):
to put it out. They also put it out in
Europe and this is where this is where Frank heard
it in Germany and was like, I can steal this thing.
It's not a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Exactly, only eight thousand records, no problem. Yeah, So I'm not.
I didn't see if he ever saw the permission. There's
like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate
with New Marks and was either ignored or was told no,
that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here
that you just have to take with a grain of salt,
because there are a lot of different people with a
(07:35):
lot of different self interests that gave their own version
of events. So just about everything we say you should
probably take with a grain of salt, including that. It's
entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Farrion that
he didn't try to get in touch with them at all.
He just decided he was going to take that song yeah,
and deal with it later, deal with to fall out later.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
They didn't New Marks didn't know that that happened until
they heard Millie Vanilli singing it on the radio.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Can you imagine how mad man you would be.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, they got they got paid later, and they got
credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits. But
it took that to get that credit and money.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So when Frank Ferrian put together his own version of girl,
you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Palladis or Polaitis,
they weren't even around yet. They were not part of
the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrian at that point.
They were well known around the Munich club scene as
(08:34):
being like a couple of hot dudes, yeah who knew
how to dance. Sure, and I believe that's kind of
where Farian caught on to them. For sure, we'll see
he invited them to come over. But before that, we
should talk a little bit about Rob and fab.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, so fab like you said, his name is Fabrice.
Morvin was born on Guadaloupe, is a Caribbean island, raised
in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a
vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in nineteen eighty three.
And how it just hurts to think about.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I know, trampolines are so dangerous. They are so dangerous. Everybody.
If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our Trampoline episode,
go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Ruby asked for one. I was like, no way, So
couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore, turned to dancing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Rob Polaitis was born in New York City and the
son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here
we go again, an African American US soldier, but was
ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted
at the age of four by a German couple. And
so he and for Briests have something in common. There
(09:50):
are two black men in the nineteen seventies growing up
in these not completely white cultures but kind of devoid
of lot of black culture at least, facing racism from
classmates and stuff like that. And they bonded over this.
I think it was Rob who talked about finally in
(10:10):
his teenage years, Michael Jackson became such a big deal
that all all of a sudden, like you know, even
where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy
to be black, and he wasn't like it's picked on,
I guess. But super handsome guy was a model obviously
very early on in a DJ and a breakdancer, and
(10:31):
a good enough breakdancer that in nineteen eighty four he
went to New York for a breakdancing competition, which is
where he met fab who was there for a dance seminar.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Very fortuitous, yeah, even more like they didn't meet in
New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part
of that trip to New York. While he was over
on the across the Pond, and that's where he met Fabrice.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
All right, in New York.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet
in New York. Well, so it was a very fortuitous
chance meeting. And apparently, you know, they they got along
and everything. And I saw that they ran into each
other again in Munich. I don't know if they, you know,
kept in touch or anything like that, but either way,
once they were both back in Munich living in the
same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and
(11:21):
really knock the socks off of the people at the
clubs around here.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I'll tell you where they didn't meet. Kansas City, It's true.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's like, was it New York or LA? Where else
could it be? It was not Kansas City, It's true.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
No, or I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't
have met.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Arlington, Virginia, Topeka. Sure they could have met in Arlington,
just outside of d C. Yeah, all right, I mean
it's just right across the river. So what are they
doing in DC meeting the president? I would guess model
model you in Yeah, they were doing break dancing for
Ronald Reagan. All right, model you was a fun little
impro exercise.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Sure, So, like you said, they met back in Munich.
They would eventually get the attention of Frank Farrion, who
was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think
he knew everybody in that scene in Germany and got
in touch with them on New Year's Day nineteen eighty eight,
came together very quickly, brought him to his studio in Frankfurt,
(12:24):
played them girl. You know it's true. They signed a
record contract that day, where in which Frank Farrion said,
I will put out at least ten songs a year
by you guys. And as far as Robin fab were concerned,
and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we
are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't
great singers.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
They also later said that they didn't read the contract,
and the fact that they met and signed a contract
on New Year's Day in nineteen eighty eight certainly supports that.
At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel
in to look at it. Yeah, so they just trusted
Frank Feryon. They had been looking for singing parts. So
they just assumed that that's what he was saying, We're
going to make records with you guys. That is not
(13:07):
what had happened. And by this time Farian already knew
he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't
like he had them over heard them sing. It was like,
I've got to figure something else out. Yeah, he was like,
I love your look, and you guys are going to
be the lip syncing frontman of Millie Vanilli And I'm
just not going to tell you that at first.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows,
I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers
to record Girl. You know it's true. Some gentlemen by
the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US
soldiers once again. He met them in Germany when Farian
was working there. And then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw,
(13:49):
is a guy who did the rap portion of that song.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about
They're not talking about them. They have to be speaking
about that one part where he just suddenly goes like,
I'm in love with you, girl, you on my mind.
That Yeah, that's what they're calling rap.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Sure, what else is it?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Like? Rhythmic singing, that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't
know about that one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah that was the rap part.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay, sorry, Charles, you take issue. I guess I did. Definitely,
I definitely did. Even today, like I'm not looking down
on Milli Vanilli, like, sure that was not rap? All right,
Well that Blondie song was more rap than than raping girl,
you know it's true.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, So at any rate, those three guys did with
it whatever they did on tape as the real singers,
slash rappers, slash How did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers,
rhythmic singers, rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it
wasn't like, Hey, we're going to be this new band,
We're going to go out on tour. I think Howell
(14:55):
was in his forties and he was like, I'm not
going to tour farians was It was just Fairian's deal
from the beginning, as I'm going to have these two
super handsome model guys in there, you guys are going
to sing and they I think they ended up listing
them as backup singers on the record. The guys who
really sang it right, and that was just that was
(15:15):
the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin Fab.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yes, I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that
that was that they were not going to be singing.
I don't know, because when he played them the song Girl,
you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental
at that point.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Oh really interesting, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So that it wasn't like he was playing this for
them and saying like, you guys are just going to
pretend you're doing you're singing this like. I don't know
when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long.
And just as like a little side note before we
go take a break. Where did the name Millie Vanilli
come from? What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Chuck Well, who knows. There's a bunch of stories. Robin
Fab said that it meant pop, positive energy, and Turkish,
which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for,
you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But also does the words Millie Vanilli sound Turkish in
any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish
to my.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Ninears definitely does not.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Some people said it was a discotheque in Berlin by
that name. Some people said Frank Ferring's assistant, Ingrid Siegith
was her nickname was Milli, And then other people said
it might have been and I'm not sure about this
at all, but it might have been inspired by Scritty Piliiti,
the great pop English pop band who is very underrated.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think, yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've
got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy.
It's gritty, pility is great, it is, and that's a
good song. But I just wanted to take this moment
because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of
the greatest song of the eighties, The entire eighties, the
entire decade is owner of a lonely heart.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yes, oh, I just heard that song.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I can. It's one of those ones that like, I'll
hear it on the radio or in the mall or something,
because you know there's still malls and I will never
be like, oh this song. I can listen to that
song every single time it comes on. Yeah, it is
so well done. It's so complex, but it's so catchy.
It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from
the eighties.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, movie Yourself, A great start, Yeah, great end, Greade.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Middle, Yeah, the whole shebang. I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I liked the whole album. What was it was a
series of numbers. I wanted to say nine to two
and O, but that can't be.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Oh you ate one two, I can't remember. I liked
it though. They had that great song.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I'll leave it from that record too.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's literally the only song I've heard off of that record.
That might be the only Yes song I've ever heard.
It doesn't matter. It's still the greatest song of the eighties.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You've heard roundabout probably does it go round about?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You've got to lose control on the round about.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
All Right, we're gonna take a break and we'll talk
about the deception right after this.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, Chuck, So in April nineteen eighty eight, you said
that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out
this entire shebang, especially starting from when they reached the
United States till their downfall was less than two years.
This was all compressed in just a couple of years.
And the whole thing started in April nineteen eighty eight,
(18:54):
and after Frank Farrion had his completed recording of Girl
Robin Fab started touring Spain in France, so they were
promoting it. They were singing this right, so they by
this point Farian had said, Hey, you guys, just go
go out and just, you know, lip sync to this one,
(19:14):
and then when we do the next album, you guys
can actually sing, and that was one of the big
reasons that they bought into it. So by this time,
by April nineteen eighty eight, they were well aware what
was going on.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and by the way, dear listener, if you hear
a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if
it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk.
There are some construction going on next door, and I
can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
They have minds of their own.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
They have minds and they have a job to do,
so they're doing it. But you may hear like a
low level bump every now and then, so I can't
hear anything all right, So maybe it's not coming through.
I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this
song was big in Germany. Like you said, did you
say that I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany,
(20:01):
became a number one hit in Germany, and you know,
was like sort of a thing in Europe early on
before it got to America, and right out of the bat,
right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe
when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper
guy who Josh doesn't think raps no, basically came out
to the media in Europe and was like, by the way,
(20:23):
that's me And then that got shut down really really quickly.
He says it's because he was threatened by Frank Farrion.
Frank Farrian says, no, I paid him like mid you know,
one hundred and fifty grand to keep his mouth shut.
But at any rate, this is the first time that
like the cat was out of the bag a little bit,
and rumors were kind of going around to the point
(20:47):
basically where on a radio station in Europe they had
a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are
you really singing this? Like sing on the air to
prove that you're really good singers?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right? I saw this described as by the time you know,
it finally came out, very poorly kept secret in the
music industry. Yeah, but that is definitely where it would
have started for sure. Also, people who met them and
were in the music industry where like, these guys did
not sing that they were talked about as Hans and Franz.
(21:20):
They sounded like Hans and Franz, is how one interviewer
put it. Because they have very thick European accents, and
apparently Rob no Fab. His English was so shaky that
he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a
word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most
of the time.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, I mean in their favor, Like the way someone
sings is not often not the way that they talk, right.
But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know.
It's just like a lot of people early on were like,
something's not adding up here when you interview.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
These guys, right, exactly, all right.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So Rob and Fab are still beating this drum, and
this is something that you'll see as a team through
this whole thing. They never ever stopped asking to sing
their own stuff. Very important pleading with Frank Ferry and
to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to
do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel
great about the arrangement at all, and that they wanted
to sing. They wanted to they thought they were good
(22:23):
singers and they wanted to sing.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
They also felt like they were trapped in I think
Rob Pudder fab put it as a golden prison. Oh yeah,
they've been having twenty thousand dollars advances, fuzzy handcuffs from
Frank Ferry and very early on, and these guys like
to party. There's no two ways around that. So these
(22:45):
two twenty five year old good looking honks who were
suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene
and now they were the most popular dudes at the
clubs in Munich with money twenty grand each. Yeah, it
didn't stick around for very long. So they would have
owed that back to Frank Ferran and they were like, well,
(23:05):
now we're really stuck, Like we're not only kind of
looped into this lie, we're financially like obligate.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Into this yea, yeah, absolutely, I think as again, like
you get a lot of stories from the people involved.
Rob said later on that while this was happening in
the early days, he got in touch with people from
Boni m and they said, by the way, this Frank
Farring guy's a rat and he wouldn't let us sing,
(23:33):
and he sang the songs and it was all a
big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort
of saw the writing on the walls, like we're in
this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing.
But their star was rising. In early nineteen eighty nine
is when they hit the United States when they signed
with Arista Records division of BMG. Who was the president
(23:55):
of BMG at the time was Clive Davis, legendary producer.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
There's a really a.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Documentary on him, by the way, that I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I think he was the president of Arista.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh, I thought he was a president of BMG.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I don't think so. I got the I thought he
was Arista, but yeah, you might be right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well either way, Clive Davis is a legend no matter
who he works for. Yeah, and great documentary on him.
And they signed them on the strength of Girl you
Know It's True, released it as a single at the
end of January nineteen eighty nine, and then repackaged the
European version of the album for the United States as
(24:32):
the album title Girl you Know It's True. Did some remixes,
took some songs off, put some on, and then released
the full album. And the dates are important here because
of how quickly it was in March of nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Okay, so they the singles released at the end of
January nineteen eighty nine. The album comes out in March
of nineteen eighty nine. And I referred earlier to Girl
you Know It's True as their one of their second
biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts.
I say only, but it's kind of surprising because that's
the one that everybody thinks of with Milli Vanilli. Maybe
(25:07):
it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it
hit number two in April. So the following month overall,
that album worldwide sold eleven million copies. Mm hm. It
is so hard to sell eleven million copies of a record,
It's astounding. And seven million of those copies were sold
in the United States alone.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, so they had a number two hit in April.
They had a number one with baby Don't Forget My
Number in July, had another number one with Girl I'm
Gonna Miss You in September.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You may maybe watch that video. I watched it too,
just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you
watch the part where he goes, oh, I'll think of
it later, but there's a there's like a refrain that
he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not
lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, well music videos too, though a lot of that lipsing.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
He wasn't great, to be fair, true, but this was
the point. Yeah, And I guess in hindsight, you're looking
for it, so you could see it. But yeah, she
seemed to have noticed it pretty early on and then
blame it on.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
The rain was their final number one in November, and
then All or Nothing was a number four in February
of ninety So they had number one hits in I'm Sorry,
number two hit in April, then number one hits in July, September, November,
and then a number four in February of the next year. Right,
that's as hot as any band in the history of music.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yes, dude. Five singles released, all five in the top
five Billboard charts, three number ones. It's astounding. Like I
knew Milli Vanilli was big, but when you see it
on paper like that, uh huh, Like you said, like
there's very few people that have ever matched that kind
of thing. And they were just man the definition of
a flash in the pan. They just came on and
(26:55):
blew up and blew out in no time at all.
Tune in, turn out, turnout, tune in. What is it? Okay?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, So they figured that they would be better served
and probably a little more protected and have more leverage
if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb
of Frank Ferian. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just
a few months later in June of that year. They
this is my senior of high school, by the way,
just to put that perspective.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Right, I was thirteen going into I was this eighth.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Grade, okay, And by this time I was listening to
The Cure and Ram and the Smiths and Excess and
all that stuff. Like this is when I was like
starting in like eighty six, eighty seven on, I started
getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool, but I,
like everyone knew this stuff. You couldn't escape. But I
was an MTV kid, so I knew all these songs.
(27:47):
It wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them
all still.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The whole world was singing Millie Vanilli at the time,
but baby, are you kidding me? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So they sign and this is a pretty key detail too,
with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy
Gallon of Gallen Morey Associates and.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
You remember him right?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Oh wait, where was that from?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Is Dolly Parton's manager who truss over?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah? Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
He managed Milli Vanilli and Dolly Parton.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Who else do you need?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah? Really?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
All right? So nineteen eighty nine they have blown up.
They became part of the first Club MTV tour alongside
was not Was Information Society, Tone Loake and Paula Abdul.
It's a good tour, good tour. But like the suspicion
that started in Europe followed them here, and like we
(28:41):
mentioned with the interviews and their accents and broken English, like,
things started to go a little south here as well,
to the point where, like just a few months after
they came here, they stopped doing radio and TV interviews.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah, they would only do print. But ironically they were
allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a
Super Mario three cartoon where they they play themselves. But
they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because
they won't performed for her. And if you go watch
that clips of that that cartoon, you're like, wow, those
guys really did not sound anything like they sounded on
(29:15):
the record.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I saw a clip. I'm sure we both watched like
tons of clips, but there was one clip where they
were trying to prove they could sing and they did
this little a cappella harmony bit and they were just flat.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything,
and fab actually can sing a little bit. I think
Rob couldn't sing that great, huh, But they you know,
they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like
did you get a load of that? But it was
super flat.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
It was. It was not great.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But I think like producers have done more with less
with auto tune and all that stuff. For sure.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That is a big thing. That's that's something to kind
of like put it into context, like this is this
is maybe the world's entrade to what producers exactly did
and in a way kind of established it is okay
to start messing with the talent's abilities. Yeah, it made it.
It was the inflection point where it went from an
(30:16):
emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package
an artists and sell them. And a lot of people
blame MTV for this happening in MTV says, that's absurd, right, So.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
We have to talk about what happened in July, and
again this is they had four of their hits after
July of that year, despite the fact that at a
concert in Bristol, Connecticut, there were lip syncing very famously.
It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. Girl,
you know it's true. There's a very brief clip on
(30:50):
it from a VH one special I Think Behind the
Music where although Livia says that Variety said it wasn't
as dramatic as go you know it's, girl, you know
it's but that's what it showed in the video, and
they they didn't know how to handle it. They if
they would have ridden it out, they probably would have
been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers
(31:12):
lip sync and everyone kind of knows this at least
parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there,
they might have been okay. But they freaked out and
Rob ran off stage. In a panic, basically.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, totally. And it was Downtown Julie Brown, who I
guess was touring with the club MTV tour, oh yeah,
who talked him into going back out. And I was
reading a Variety article written in twenty twenty about this
and they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And
I suspect that article was written by a millennial.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, who probably doesn't even know whabbah blabblah blabbah.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Julie down dumb. Do you remember that? Yeah? Totally.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I forgot all about that and it just popped into
my head. Downtown Julie Brown.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah. And what's funny is one of the reasons why
she went by Downtown Julie Brown is because there was
another are equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the
same time. Remember the redhead of Julie Brown or kind
of a weird I feel like Phoebe Hermann adjacent type character.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
No? I'm not, okay, look up Julie Brown. All right, okay,
I will fine. You have with you right now. Yeah,
I'll keep talking if you want to.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit so that was
like a big deal.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
That Bristol, Connecticut show to them. They felt like that
that was the beginning of the end, and even still
in later interviews they would point to that as like
that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanilli.
They knew that this this act that they've been carrying
on was unraveling, basically, and they later said that they
were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time, and they
(32:54):
kept partying. A lot of people say that they kept
partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if
that's true not, but they it's understandable that they would
have been kind of stressed.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
By the way Julie Brown. I totally recognize her now, sure,
and that's who I was thinking of. And I might
have said Julie t Nuda. It was Judy Tanuda, the comedian.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah you said Judy.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I think I did. Okay, I think I thought that
was Judy Tananuda. But I totally remember Julie Brown now.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
But she's similar in character, not quite as like over
the top as Judy Tanuda, but similar in.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
A flamboyant Yeah, yeah, for sure, she was great. I
wasn't listening to you Where Were You?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous
all the time and now they felt like this thing
was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol, Connecticut
show the beginning of the end.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like
Millie Vanilli is having all this chart success, but they
were never a critical darling. No, in fact, they were
and I think people for sure piled on a lot
more after the Secret came out, but even before that,
they became a little bit of a symbol of what
(34:02):
serious music critics kind of thought was the unraveling of
pop music and how shallow it was and how like
overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst
version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind
of course corrected.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, And a lot of that came from the usual
suspects the rock community, who yeah, arranged themselves as like
the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah.
And now that we're at this part, I really regret
talking about whether that was rap or not and the
girl you know it's true song because it's essentially the
same thing. But yes, Milli Vanilli was an easy target,
(34:42):
even before they were outed as frauds, right, Yeah, so
I think that made it all the more sweet for
the people who were rooting against them to have their
wildest dreams come true and Milli Vanilli be outed as frauds,
Like there are people rooting against them again though, like
this is a this is a really complicating factor, Chuck,
(35:04):
how much of Millie Vanilli's popularity then, if the music
wasn't that good, or you know, if you were a
music critic, how much of Milli Vanilli's like success came
from Robin Fab and the work that they were doing.
They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they
did one hundred and seven cities in an eight month tour.
(35:25):
That's a lot of work. And also people loved to
let like their look, They thought they were hot. They
loved their dances, that that little dance move where they
faced one another and just like kind of ran in
place in front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did
that dance move, whether they were serious or not, everyone
(35:45):
was doing that dance bood. So, how much of their
popularity can you you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab
And I would say quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh absolutely, I mean one hundred and seven shows. I'm
fairly tired from our big three show swing that we
just did.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, by the way, way, thank you DC Boston in
Toronto for fun times.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, it was great shows. These guys also didn't do
themselves a lot of favors. I think, in particular Rob,
who was a little bit more vocal, just because I
think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones,
and I you know, looking back though, like the guy
was probably scared and defensive. But he would say some
(36:24):
kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article or
a lest stuff that wouldn't do him any favors. I
can't remember which magazine, but when I think it's time,
there's a quote here where he says, musically, we're more
talented than any Bob Dylan. Musically, we're more talented than
Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger. His lines are not clear. He
don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the
(36:46):
new modern rock and roll, I'm the new Elvis.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So Rob said that that was wildly taking out of context,
that he didn't say anything like that. The clothes direct quote, right,
I know, But the closest that he says he said
was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation
and they're huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted
or not, this is a potential pr disaster for this
(37:15):
obviously short lived group. So everybody involved, the record label,
Ferry and their managers all decided that they needed to
go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain
this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed
to work a medley of The Beatles, the Rolling Stones
(37:36):
and Bob Dylan into their show and they were going
to go forward on it, and Robin fab or the
two that had the sense to be like, that's a
terrible idea, We're not going to do that, So they
dropped that. But that was how they were going to
show that they didn't think they were bigger than The Stones,
the Beatles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of
(37:58):
their songs at their lives. Great idea, I think so too.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
All right, let's take our second break and we're gonna
come back and talk about the rest right after this.
(38:34):
All right, So here's the question, which is and Lvia
titles this section that who knew what when, because that's
sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager,
Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot
of people on the inside in the music scene knew
this was going on in the summer of nineteen eighty nine,
(38:56):
like while they were putting out these songs and having
these big hits. There's a guy named Todd Headley who
used to work for Milli Vanilly. I believe he ended
up being their manager at a certain point afterward when
they were just Robin Fab. But he said, you know,
everyone that was connected to this knew this. I don't
(39:16):
know like necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far
as Arista goes. They said, well, we didn't know it.
Frank Ferrian I guess I bet you there was some
handshake deal or something going on. Yeah, because he took
He basically came out very vehemently saying that like, no,
I Rista didn't know anything about this, right, But everyone
knew basically on the inside.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yes, But all of those people publicly said that they
did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record
company being like, we had no idea. These guys didn't
sing on the on the tracks. Yeah, but that's what
they said. So and the whole time. Remember, just bear
in mind they kept trying to fight to sing, like
their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry unto
(39:59):
let them sing on the next album. Right, And so
finally I believe that the whole thing came to a head.
Oh yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry. There was evidence
that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew
that this was going on, because they seed him on
letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let
(40:21):
them sing on the next album. So if Clive Davis
wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album?
Why wouldn't you let him sing? If he didn't look
into it, that's so bad. The implication is that he
wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what
that meant.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
So the whole thing came to a head with the
nineteen ninety Grammy ceremony, right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's right. They were, you know, obviously going to be
a strong contender for Best New Artists. As the story goes,
Clive Davis did not want to submit them because he
knew it was a fraud, but Sandy Gallon and the
management company said nope, We're going to submit him. They
won Best of course, they won Best New Art Artists
(41:00):
at the Grammy who else would and they performed at
the ceremony, lip synced at the ceremony.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
They owned the Grammys that year, they did, and.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
The producer the Grammys was basically later on, just like,
you know, everybody really sings. Is one of the few
times in forty years of doing this that I've let
someone lip sync. But that is where things kind of
went downhill. I think the Grammys later said, like, all
you had to do was put somewhere on the record,
even in the smallest print, like Millie Vanilli is unless
(41:31):
the original singers, But like, we can't let you keep
these Grammys, So we got to take them back.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Right, And they actually fully intended to. Apparently the day
after the Grammys said we want our Grammys back, Michael Green,
the president of it, said we want our Grammys back,
something along those lines. They had already had a press
comfort schedule where they intended to give them back.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They'll not give them back, give them to those singers, right.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Initially they had wanted to, and apparently the Grammys were like,
do not give those to anybody. It's not up to
you to give them the anyone. And the question is
whether or not they were going to give the Grammy
to the next runner up. I can't remember. I think
Tone Loke, Information Society, I can't remember who else, But
they didn't. There was no Grammy for Best New Artists
(42:17):
given out for nineteen ninety because Millie Vanilli's was taken back.
And at that press conference, they had their voice coach
stand up and say, yeah, these guys can sing. I
totally attest to that, And yeah, that was where you
mentioned earlier that they kind of like wrapped and sang
(42:37):
just these little snippets to show that they could, and
it wasn't very good. Yeah, but that was It was
a very fateful press conference. But if you watch it,
they don't seem at all nervous. They seem like they're
soaking in the love still. And I read that during
this time they expected the music industry to take them
(42:59):
back with arms, because they'd done so much to make
Millie Vanilla huge. That just did not happen, all.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Right, So that the Grammy snapo was on November nineteenth,
nineteen ninety. This happened because five days earlier, Frank Farrion
finally came out because these guys would not stop asking
him to sing, and it was not only annoying to
Frank Farrian, but he was in between a rock and
a hard places, like can this thing even go on anymore?
(43:27):
So he figured it can't go on. I'm going to
hold a press conference. I'm going to expose everything. He
disclosed it all and he said, you know, still Arista
didn't know anything about this, and Arista they were this.
This guy, the VP of Operations, Roy Lott, had a
quote where he was like, seven million albums embarrassing? Am
I embarrassed? You know, I don't mean the njustified the means,
(43:49):
but we sold seven million albums And I'm like, dude,
that's the very definition of the end justified thing exactly.
I don't think you know what that means.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah. So there was a very wide ranging impact from this,
like we've kind of talked about, like a lot of
people pointed to this and said, see, see, like this
isn't about the actual music or the creativity or the
talent anymore. It's about packaging people as artists so much
so that they didn't even sing on the album. That
was the big thing. If it didn't come out that
(44:19):
they were lip syncing in concerts, they could have pointed
to everybody from Janet Jackson to Paul Abduel and said,
they lip SYNCD too. You can't really sing well when
you're doing these incredible choreographed dances throughout a whole show.
So of course their lip syncing. It wasn't that it
was that they didn't even sing on the album, that
they had nothing to do with the music aside from
(44:40):
the visuals. That that's what really kind of got everybody.
But one of the things that it definitely exposes that
this is not a standalone incident.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
No, And it was well known in the music industry
that this happened. Martha Wall she was part of the
Weather Girls who had the great song It's Raining Men.
She was the one who sang that part on the
and See Music Factory hit. They again, they hired a
model slash singer to sort of pretend like she had
done it.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Without her knowledge. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
The Village People had always been rumored to have not
been the actual singers like that first version of the
Village People. And I tried to find out if that
was true, and I really couldn't see anything definite, but
a lot of people were doing this kind of thing
here and there. Lawsuits started to be people I think
were just sort of fed up, though, And it was
the end of the eighties, and I think people, I
(45:30):
think styles were changing and tastes were changing, and they're like,
we don't want fake music, Like you should start putting
like truth on labels, like this wasn't recorded by this,
like truth and music labeling. Fans filed class action lawsuits
about Millie Vanilly and it was settled by getting up
to three dollars from BMG and Arista if you could say,
(45:54):
like here's my concert ticket or here's the album that
I bought fairy and and you kind of alluded to
this early on, and I sort of agree, like it
was a fraud, but he was also like this is
pop music, and like who cares in Europe? Like no
one cares, It's no big deal. Like everyone in America
got so riled up about this, and like, you know,
(46:15):
these guys made a couple of million bucks.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
I made money.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
The guys who really sang it ended up making money,
Like who cares?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
And I sort of get that a little bit because
there's a lot more things to be getting a huff about,
but I also get it in a way.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, and I think now we do. But we do
now because of the rough transition that we went through
by being so so let down by Miller Vanilli, I
wasn't let down flyar so Robin Fab again. They were
expecting to just basically be welcome back into the fold
pretty quickly. That this was basically just a speed bump,
(46:53):
and now, more than anything, they were released from this
golden prison they were in. They didn't have to be
stressed out about people finding out their secret any longer.
And now finally they could do their own music, and
they actually released an album called Robin Fab using their
real voices. They showed up on the Arsenio Hall Show
to sing live, which they had turned down before because
(47:14):
the Arsenio Hall Show required performers to perform live, no
lip syncing. So now this is kind of like a
triumphant appearance on the Arsenio Hall Show. Their album sold
two thousand copies in the US and that was it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah, it was a big flop. I did not know
until today that they did a cover version on that
album of Cheap Tricks I want you to want me.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Oh, I didn't know that either.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Listen to it.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I definitely will. But so a lot of people are like, yeah,
of course it was a flop. They were frauds. I
think that one of the reasons, probably the biggest reason
it was a flop, is that they released it in
nineteen ninety three, and nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety three
were situated into totally different worlds because Nevermind had come
out in September nineteen ninety one, and no one cared
(48:01):
a lick about anything that seens THEE Music Factory or
Black Fox or Millie Vanilly was putting out. All they
wanted was more and more Nirvana and grunge, and give
it to us, give us Pearl Jam, give us all
that stuff. That's all we care about. So I think
that that at least accounts for a significant reason why
it was such a flop.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, bad timing for sure, and for I mean that
changed all of music. That's when the metal bands were all,
I go, what are we supposed to do now? It
was a big transition. As far as Robin fab If
you haven't seen the behind the music, some pretty sad
stuff happened afterward. Rob had a pretty rough life after that.
(48:39):
He had a suicide attempt in ninety one. He was
in rehab quite a few times. He was arrested a
few times. They eventually were going to get back together
in nineteen ninety eight to work on something, but on
April seventh of that year, he was found dead in
a hotel room. And everyone basically agrees that it was
an accidental overdose of alcohol and pills, and Fab, you know,
(49:05):
was heartbroken and put out a pretty app statement I
think was Millie Vanilli was not a disgrace. The only
disgrace is how Rob died all alone. Where were the
ones that pushed us to the top, who made millions?
And it's just that familiar story of sort of getting
used and then kicked to the curb and forgotten about,
(49:25):
you know, chewed up by a bit more powerful people.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, exactly, so Fab. Actually they were both really like
into drugs and drinking, and Fab made it out. I
read that he paid for one of Rob's stints in rehab,
so he made it out. He still sings today. In
twenty fifteen, he joined up with John Davis, one of
the original singers of Millie Vanilli, and they toured I
(49:51):
think as face meets Voice. Yeah. So they performed some
of Milli Vanilli's songs on tour. And one thing that
I am so looking forward to I can't even stand
it is apparently, finally, at long last, we're going to
get a Milli Vanilli biopic. Yeah. Did you see these
guys that are playing them? No? Is it dead on?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Oh? I'm texting you right now.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Dude, better than ice Cube son playing ice Cube.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Oh, I didn't know that was happening.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
No, that was in Uh what was the NWA biopic?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Was he in that? Yeah? He played ice Cube. That
was ice Cube's kid.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Straight out of con Oh no, ice Cube. I thought
I thought you said Vanilla Ice.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can't remember his name. The he was
in Cocaine Beer Too, the movie you hated it?
Speaker 1 (50:39):
I know. Vanilla Ice biopic, by the way, is called
cool as Ice.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Is that a real thing too?
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, but it's not really a biopic, but it kind
of is. Did you see the picture?
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Do you have your phone?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I do?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Sorry, look at these guys, two unknowns. I think they
spent years trying to find the right people. But it's
a guy named Ilan Bin Ali is fab name tijon Niji.
I'm not sure to pronounce that. I go as the
best as I can do. And they look these guys up.
They are in costume as Millie Vanilli, and it's uncanny
(51:12):
how much they look like those guys.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It definitely is. It's pretty pretty well, that's really something.
I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
So I hope it's going to be good.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
And supposedly a lot of people who are involved in
the actual band, like or their relatives, are associate or
executive producers on this movie too, so it should be
pretty authentic.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah. I think the icing on top is the executive
producer was the was that guy who runs three hundred
Entertainment now who was the original lyricist for Girl You Know?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
It's true?
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Pretty amazing, isn't that cool?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Very cool? And if you want to see something really cute.
When you me and I were doing our Milli Vanilli
research on YouTube last night, we ran across a channel
called Africa React and it's this super cute girl who
listens to songs that she'd never heard for the first
time and it's just reaction videos. But one of the
ones she did was Girl you Know it's true, and
she gave an official thumbs up to it. It's really cute. Cool. Yeah,
(52:05):
those were fun. You got anything else? Nothing else? All right, everybody?
That means it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
I'm gonna call this. My husband fell asleep at your
show in Boston. Hey, guys, got tickets to the Medford
show and was excited to see folks live for the
first time. My husband agreed to join me and met
me in Medford after a few days at a work
conference in New York. We took our seats, and just
as the lights went down and you all appeared on stage,
we laughed at your jokes, we owed at the topic,
(52:35):
and settled in to be educated. Much to my surprise,
I noticed my husband next to me doing the head
bob and bouncing, beginning to nod off. About ten minutes
in Wow, he dozed off all I did my best
to keep from leaning over onto the guy next to us.
He finally did wake up after the second commercial break
and enjoyed the ending. He claims that I've been conditioning
(52:55):
him to fall asleep when stuff he should know starts,
but I believe it may have been and the let
down from the excitement of the conference and the work trip,
but we both had a great time. Wouldn't hesitate to
see you live again someday, and thanks so much for
taking a trip up north. I'm not gonna read Maggie's
last name because her husband may be embarrassed, so that
is just from Maggie in the Northeast.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Thanks a lot, Maggie, that's hilarious. The idea of your
husband I'm falling asleep to us normally and then having
it half an in person too because he's so easy.
I love it. I love it too well. If you
want to be like Maggie and get in touch with us,
we love it when people do that, you can send
us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
(53:39):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
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