February 6, 2020 • 41 mins
Pentecostals are seemingly taking over the world. Or at least they're making up a larger section of Christianity than every before. Why? We'll dig in on that in today's episode.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I'm here to tell
you it's official. We're going to be in Vancouver, b C.
And Portland, Oregon this March. On March twenty nine, will
be at the Chance Center in Vancouver and on March
will be at the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall in Portland.
So come see us. Tickets go on sale this Friday.
(00:21):
Go to s y s K live dot com for
ticket links and info and everything you need and we'll
see you guys in March. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,
a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hellellujah
and welcome to Stuff you Should Know. I'm Josh, There's Chuck,
(00:47):
there's Josh t over there, and uh, this is, like
I said, stuff you should know. Hey, you know we
should plug Josh's record. Can you get that anywhere? Josh
Migrant Worker? All right, he's got a new album out.
He's a very talented musician. What's the name of the
album self titled? I don't think they wrote out self titled.
(01:09):
I think it's just called Migrant Worker. And it looks great.
I haven't heard it yet, but the artwork is is amazing,
and I know Josh is talented, So yeah, go out
there and find it. Everyone. Jerry's not in a band, No, no,
you know, I mean, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna
weigh their individual talents against one another. But Jerry's not
in a band. What if Jerry is like secretly in
(01:31):
a Heart tribute band or something that would be that
would make my life. Yeah, well, I want to hear
the album to Josh. Okay, okay, says Josh um So Chuck.
I said Hallelujah to start this one off. And the
reason I did that because it was a nod to Pentecostalism,
(01:52):
which is why we're going to talk about today. That's right.
I could have sworn we did an episode on speaking
in tongues. We did not. We did went on faith
healing and snake handling. Yes, both of those were excellent,
and we must have talked about speaking in tongues some
enduring both of those. Yes, but we're gonna talk about
a little bit more because it's a big part of
(02:14):
the Pentecostal movement, which huge surprisingly and you may have
been the one that dropped that stat on me recently
about being the fastest growing sect of Christianity is that right, Yeah,
I did. It was the other the other day. I
don't know where it was, and he said, well, maybe
it was just Ah, I can't remember what you said evangelical. Yeah,
(02:37):
I think I that doesn't sound like me. I probably
said look it up. Of course I'm right. Oh goodness,
that was a great Josh impression. But it is true.
It is um, And I guess it just seemed counterintuitive
because I naively thought that pentecostal Ism was sort of
antiquated and something that was going away. Oh. No, that
(03:00):
how they get you. That's what they want you to
think of. The family spring on you. If there was
a snake in your face. They say, here, hold this center. No,
but we're gonna be respectful here because it's pretty interesting.
I think. Starting now, okay, uh, we need to get
in the way back machine, though, and go back to
where this all began. Um, not really where it all began,
(03:20):
because in truth that would be Biblical times, but where
it began as a modern thing, is uh not that
long ago nineteen o six in downtown Los Angeles they
had something going on called the Azusa Street Revival, which
we talked about that in The Faith Healing Episode two Yeah,
it was a very big deal. This was at the
(03:41):
Apostolic Faith Mission in downtown l A. There right on
Azusa Street. Um, downtown I looked l A looked very
different back then, obviously. Yeah, this is like the industrial
area I saw. Yeah, I mean now it's just downtown
l A. You're like the toy the toy zone. What
do you call it the toy zone, not the zone.
(04:03):
What do you call an area where district, toy district.
There's a toy district there is. Yeah, downtown he's got
a toy district. That's in a fashion district. It's where
like you go get raw fabrics off the truck or
cheap toys straight off the boat. That kind of thing.
Got okay, it's not like just a wonderlantern. I know.
I was like, I want to go see this. This
(04:24):
sounds amazing. I want to go to the toy zone. Yeah,
they zone. So, Um, this was going on back then
down there. Uh. And that was led by a minister
and African American minister from Louisiana named William Seymour. Yeah.
And what was interesting about this, um is that this
is six and at the Zooza Street Mission. Um, this
(04:48):
was a like a like black and white. I'm not
sure about Hispanic, but I would not be at all
surprised it was Hispanic as well. Okay, they were like
UM races worshiping together UM, and it was a very
big deal. Just that alone was a very big deal.
But what makes this the start of pentecostal is M
is that UM at some point, I think in April
(05:09):
of nineteen o six, they started holding UM three services
a day, seven days a week, and these were like
marathon hours long services each one. And the reason that
they were doing this is because if you're a Pentecostal Um,
you believe that the Holy Spirit UM had descended upon
(05:30):
the Azusa Street mission and was in baptizing all of
these people with fire and causing them to UM speak
in tongues, to dance, a clap, to sing, and basically
revived religion as as or Christianity as we know it. Like,
that's what happened here in Los Angeles starting in April
(05:52):
of nineteen o six, that's right. And they get that
that goes back to the biblical days where the eleven
remaining disciples after Christ was crucified, because you know, Judas
was the twelve you know what happened to him. He
didn't pan out so well, he didn't pan out so well,
(06:13):
didn't kill himself after that? Yeah, he hung himself. Hanged himself.
Excuse me, I always get that wrong. I always get
that wrong too. But those eleven remaining disciples were baptized
in the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Ghost
and began to speak in other tongues during the Pentecost feast,
which was a Jewish feast named so because it was
(06:35):
I think fifty days after uh, the Crucifixion, after Passover,
after Passover, and the in is Greek. Pentecost is Greek, right, Well,
well put chuck, oh yeah, yeah, So what happened at
that first Pentecost feast back in the first century, see
(06:56):
was um they were like you said, they were by
eight in the Holy Spirit. They were speaking in tongues.
They suddenly had powers to like heal and all this
happened at that Pentecost feast. Um. And in apparently in
the Bible it basically says, um, hang around and wait
for this to happen again, and you will know this
(07:18):
will be a sign that the second Coming of Christ
is at hand. And so again if you're a Pentecostal,
you believe that in April of nineteen o six, the
Holy Spirit showed up on earth again and basically bathe
these followers in it in itself, in the Holy Spirit um,
(07:38):
and to announce that Christ was coming again for the
second time. That's right, and this um, if you are
a complete agnostic or atheist, nonbeliever, this all sounds very weird. Probably,
But even back then and now, if you are um
a non Pentecostal Christian, let's say, you might think it's
(08:00):
pretty weird too. Um. It got a lot of blowback
back in nineteen o six from U Christians and atheists alike.
The l A Times. It was a reporter who wrote
a story entitled Weird Babble of Tongues, where they wrote
about attendees breathing strange utterances and malving a creed, which
it would seem no sane mortal could understand. Devotees of
(08:24):
the Weird Doctrine practice the most fanatical rights, preached the
wildest theories and work themselves into a state of mad
excitement and so um. It wasn't just the Los Angeles
Times that thought this was a little odd. There was
a guy named Charles Parham, who five years earlier is
(08:44):
considered possibly the actual founder of Pentecostalism. Because this is
really important. Speaking in tongues is the the basis. It's
the thing that differentiates Pentecostalism from everything else. The idea
that you can speak in tongues and when you do
speak in tongues is because you are being baptized by
the Holy Spirit and your your souls being sanctified, and
(09:06):
that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not actually
saved yet. That's that's the big differentiator. Well back in
nineteen o one and topeaka Kansas, Charles param was preaching
and one of his church members, Agnes uh Ose and
I think her name was, started speaking in tongues. And
so some people are like, no, this was the first
appearance of this Holy Spirit that was announcing the second
(09:28):
Coming of Christ. Other people are like, yeah, yeah, Agnes
is great and we'll we'll give her her do. But
really it was the Zuzu Street Revival where it wasn't
just one person, it was everybody who came this this revival,
this um, this thing where people were dancing and clapping
and speaking in tongues. For essentially the first time ever
or at least since the the Apostles back in the
(09:51):
first century. Um, this went on for years. They held
three services a day, seven days a week, four years,
and people were coming and being ecstatic and having just
a heck of a time. Almost said, a hell of
a time at this mission. Um, it's like nine years total. Yeah,
and then spreading out and going out into the world
(10:12):
to basically say, Hey, everybody, Jesus is coming. Look busy.
Do you remember that that was like Stephen King's favorite
T shirt for a teenager to be wearing, Jesus is
coming and look busy. Yeah. If you read his stuff
from the seventies, like in every book there's a teenager wearing. Yeah,
that's like George Constanzas when he stumbled upon the thing
(10:34):
that if he looked annoyed every time someone passed his office,
then they thought he was working hard. Serenity. Now, Uh,
One thing we should point out to that the early
Pentecostals were oddly ahead of the curve and allowing women
to take leadership roles in the church at a times,
(10:56):
and many times women of color. And this was not
the norm in nineteen o six in any capa city um.
So we should give them their due for that. Well.
In fact, William Seymour, the guy who was heading the
Zuosas Street Um revival Um, he married a white woman
and he believed that the races um worshiping together was
(11:16):
a clear sign that you know, God was present, the
Holy Spirit was present, and that this was like the
real deal, like this was really happening. But what's ironic
and kind of I guess tragic even about it is
that there was a faction that split off at the
mission um and a group left the mission and founded
(11:37):
basically their own branch of pentecostali Um. There's like one
really clear through line that aside from the um the
like religious beliefs of Evangelicalism and pentecostal um um. And
that is the politics of it, right, so true, So
there'll be some leader who comes along and says, no,
(11:58):
this and this literal interpretation is being interpreted incorrectly. We
know it's actually you're supposed to say this word. And
all of a sudden, this guy's got his own his
own church with his own followers, and they spread their
own word right Um. This happened at the Azuza Street
Mission and out of that came the two largest congregations
UM that are in the United States at least, the
(12:19):
Church of God in Christ, which is predominantly African American,
and the Assemblies of God, which is predominantly white. And
so what started out is this really amazing like um
racially mixed, multi racial UM ecstatic worship of God split
into two different factions of the same thing that divided
(12:43):
along racial lines. Amazing. Yeah, So let's take a break
and we'll come back and talk a little bit about
what's happened since then, and uh, what Pentecostals believe and
why they're growing so quickly. Alright, So before the break,
(13:28):
you mentioned the Church of God in Christ, largely African American,
six point five million members, not too shabby. Assemblies of
God three point two million members. Also, I mean a
lot of stats in here as we go, UM to
really drive home what what has happened here? What has happened?
(13:50):
Something golful? It's not how I mean in NT six
percent of all global Christians were Pentecostals. By two thousand fifteen,
that had grown to twenty five from two fifteen. That's astounding.
It's like a nineteen percent jump and but also, Chuck,
that means that one in four one and four Christians
(14:13):
are Pentecostals. Now, yeah, and I think the stat from
that Washington Post article says one in twelve human beings
on planet Earth are Pentecostal, of just all humans. Yes,
And if you're a Pentecostal, you're like, well, that's clear
evidence that the Holy Spirit is spreading throughout the world. Um,
this is not just the United States, in fact, it is.
(14:37):
It is such a big deal because it's a global movement. UM.
What is referred to as the Global South UM, which
is Africa UM or regions of Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia.
The Global South is booming with even with I'm sorry Pentecostals.
That's right, um, And I mean we'll talk a little
(14:59):
more about that, but just kind of put a pin
in that that that is I was right that it
is the fastest growing religion or religious sect. Yeah. So
there's this guy, he's a New Testament professor at evangel
University of Missouri named Martin middle Stat and he's quoted
a lot in this Uh who wrote this was this
Dave Ruse. I don't know, I didn't he might have
(15:21):
been Dave. But it seems like the author got an
interview with with Mr middle Statt. I don't know if
he's a doctor or not, but he he had a
lot of great light to shine on this and kind
of what's going on. Lightbringer, he's a lightbringer? Um, he said, sorry,
Dr Oh, you just called him doctor and he might
(15:43):
not be. But I also just called him Lucifer to well,
good point, Dr Lucifer. All right. So he said that
this is kind of like any kind of restoration or
renewal movement within Christianity that happens when and it's happened
over time in different ways, but that happens when Christians
feel like, hey, we've been ignoring something pretty important here
(16:07):
in the Bible directly from from Christ's words, and we
need to recover that in a big way. And in
this case, they're talking about the Book of Acts, which
details what we went over earlier of what happened with
the disciples after the passover. Right wait, wait and there
so like this this idea is that it's literally being recovered,
(16:29):
like there is this is literally happening. The Holy Spirit,
as prophecied, is returning to Earth and andy in hearkening
the Second Coming of Christ, right, yeah, so so like
these renewal and reform movements have happened before, and in fact,
some people trace Pentecostalism to one in the late nineteenth
(16:51):
century called the Holiness Movement. And these these renewals um
that follow in the tradition of the Holiness Movement. They
are based on um, like a charismatic belief that's it's
really easier to explain what it's not, and that is
that stayed kind of call and response service where everybody
sits down, stands up all at the same time, and
(17:14):
it's it's very structured. Charismatic worship is the exact opposite
of that. It's not structured. It almost seems like things
are coming apart at the seams. Um. People are dancing
and clapping, everybody's almost doing their own thing, and it's
like there's a lot of room for you to have
your own experience directly with the Holy Spirit, not necessarily
(17:37):
just through this preacher or this priest or whoever is
acting as the conduit like in a normal service. This
is like the Holy spirits there in the room and
everybody's interacting with it in their own way. Yeah, which
Um sounds kind of fun, to be honest. I grew
up in a Baptist church that was the opposite. It
was one of these very sort of dry things. Every
(17:58):
Sunday you would get your sermon that had to wrap
up by noon because the pot roast was in the
slow cooker and the falcons were gonna come on in
an hour, and you could feel people getting anty. You know.
It was just one of those deals. That's the church
I went to. I remember we had a guy that
came and visited one week that sat on the front
(18:18):
row and started, uh started talking back, Oh yeah, oh yeah,
started and just with like you know, you know, all
all glory, hallelujah. So you know, they were just I
was like, what is going on? Everyone did? Everyone was
like what is this guy doing? Um, we don't do
that here. There was They didn't say that, but that
was the feeling. I think that man turned out to
(18:42):
be St. Paul. I just remember being a kid and
hearing him and seeing the reaction of people and getting
the feeling that they're all like, don't screw this up
for us, buddy, we uh yeah, right, were gonna doing things. Yeah,
we can get out of here. In forty five minutes
just clamb up. Um. I went to a funeral recently
at a Pentecostal church and it was something else. But
(19:04):
there there were people speaking in tongues and a lot
of like shouting back and and like like you were saying,
like that guy in the front row right there, Oh,
I was in the thick of it. Yeah, And um,
it was like it wasn't just that one guy, it
was everybody there was doing that and they were doing
it like at their own, like on their own terms,
(19:24):
on their own speed, and um, it was really it
was something to see. It was really impressive. I would
pay cash money to see a hidden camera video of
you during that. I was playing it super cool. I
bet every once a while did you go right on man? Yeah,
I said, freebird. I'm not into this, but you guys
(19:45):
seem cool. No, I was. I was there and being
explicitly not judging of course, you know, Like I was
like I was a guest there, and I felt kind
of honored to have been invited because everybody knew who
knew me that was there knew that I'm not into
that at all. But I also didn't want to put
out any kind of vibe like I was being judging
or anything. Would you even go if you're just gonna
(20:07):
sit there and smirk, you know, that's no fun. Well yeah, exactly.
But also I was very um. I had a lot
of respect and admiration for the deceased, I thought, you
can say. I was also very drunk. I had taken
some shrooms a couple of hours before, and it really
made everything even more interesting. That's cool. I'm glad you
had that experience. Yeah, me too, Actually, me too. I
(20:28):
think people should experience all kinds of things in their
life like this that. But yeah, can possibly uncomfortable, exactly,
And and like I could also see I was like, yeah,
you know, like if you're really kind of open to
this or even on the fence about it, you can
feel how somebody would get swept up and be like, yeah,
this is what I believe, you know. I mean, the
(20:48):
word charismatic is an excellent word for um for that
that type of worship, like it's perfect, but it's not.
And we tend to think of it as like Pentecostals
who just do that, and it's not. There's actually different
charismatic movements that revived other Christian sex to like Catholicism
had one back in nineteen seven, the Methodists had a
(21:11):
charismatic revival, and um, it's typically kind of looked upon
favorably by church leaders because they're like, all right, this
is a little weird. We might start having to go
an hour and a half of our services. But ultimately
what it represents is people coming along and saying this
religious sect is not dying. We're gonna breathe new life
into it. Or if you believe in this kind of stuff,
(21:34):
the Holy Spirit has chosen to breathe new life into
this sect to keep it from dying off. Or it's
good for business. That's another way to look at it
for sure. And we'll we'll talk about some people who
are who view the whole thing kind of transactionally to uh.
So we should point out to you here about the
different kinds of baptism. When we're talking about someone being
(21:55):
quote unquote saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit, this
is a you're at baptism. It is if you've seen
uh people get dunked in the pool or in a river.
If you're in a more rural church, that is a
water baptism that is merely a symbolic public gesture to
kind of celebrate and tell everyone, Hey, I had the
(22:17):
spirit baptism. I'm saved now, so hey, get a load
of me. Yeah, get a load of me. Watch I'll
get dunked. Yeah. But if you're a Pentecostal, you're basically like,
that's that's great. That's a nice first quarter step, right that.
And it's not just Pentecostals who believe that, Like I
think you know, if you're Catholic, when you're baptized, you're baptized.
(22:38):
It's just done. You have a water baptism and you
are officially baptized, your your your baby soul is not
going to go to purgatory any longer. You can finally
go to heaven, right with Like Baptists, I believe the
water baptism is enough too. But what differentiates evangelicals from
other other religious sects that believe that by Baptist baptism
(23:00):
through water you're saved right then? Um? Evangelicals are like, no,
you've just said that, Okay, I'm dedicating myself to God
into Christ specifically. But what differentiates evangelicals is that there's
still some other thing coming, and that's that baptism by
the Holy Spirit. Well, it was the different in my church.
It was you wait till you have that spiritual baptism
(23:23):
and then afterward you have the public water baptism. Oh
is that right? Okay, okay, so I've got that backwards.
But but that's what so so even so, then I
guess would Baptists be considered a type of evangelicals? I
don't know. I don't know either. But here's what I
found that differentiates evangelicals or that defines evangelicals. You're ready.
(23:44):
There's a scholar from Baylor. He's an historian, but he's
also an evangelical scholar named David Bebington, David W. Bebington,
and he defines evangelicals as subscribing to four big points.
One is that the Bible is the literal word of God,
where like, if you're reading that God wrote that, do
(24:05):
not question it, do not try to interpret it any
other way, Like it is literally on its face what
it means is the word of God. The second second
point is that Jesus, Jesus suffered on the cross and
died in order to cover humanity, and that you can
(24:26):
be saved by accepting that as fact. That Jesus Christ
is your savior. Man, I feel like we're having a
revival here ourselves. Okay, we've worked up this. The third
one is that you have to be born again by
a baptism by the Holy Spirit. So I don't know
if you could technically get away with not doing the
(24:47):
water baptism, because the evangelicals say it's that baptism by
Holy Spirit where you're overcoming, you're clapping and singing and
speaking in tongues and all that. Well, not speaking in tongues,
but you're clapping and singing and you have like been
bathed and baptized by the Holy Spirit. That that's how
you're actually saved. Okay, okay. Point four is that you
(25:09):
have to be an activist um an evangelists who is
actively working on converting the world to Godliness uh and
Christianity to prepare for the second coming of Christ. It's
not enough to just be like, oh, they're doing it wrong.
You have to go over and explain to them how
they're doing it wrong and how to do it right. Yeah,
(25:30):
I mean that was that was I think all four
of those fall under what I grew up with in
my church. Okay, then what then? What separates evangelicals from
pentecostal is that Pentecostals believe that baptism by the Holy
Spirit involves specifically speaking in tongues, and that if you
don't speak in tongues when you're baptized by the Holy Spirit,
you haven't actually been sanctified and made pure so that
(25:54):
you can get into Heaven and you're a true you
know Christian. I guess right, all right, that clears up
a lot. Thank you. You can subscribe to my news letter. Um,
so let's talk about speaking in tongues. There are a
couple of ways that this can happen. Um. It's also
called spontaneous speech. UM. It could come through as a
(26:16):
foreign language that you don't know. They call that xenoglossia.
There's basically no documented case of that ever. Right, So
when I say this can happen, these are the ways
that it's broken down in theory um or nonsensical utterances,
which is called gloss lalia. And that's whinning. You know,
(26:37):
if you've ever seen, well, if you've ever seen people
speaking tongues, or if you've ever seen the movie Cape
Fear with Robert de Niro at the end when he's
going into the water. Um, that's that's what he's doing.
Is it sounds it's a nonsensical divine utterance, is what
it's defined as. Yes, supposedly God's the only one who
can understand what you're saying, but you're actually speaking in
(26:58):
a language that God understands. Right. And the other thing
is somewhere in the Bible it says that if you're
gonna speak in tongues, you should only do it in public,
like if you're in church, you should only do that
if there's someone there to interpret that message. And Pentecostals
say nuts to that. They do because they the cynical
(27:19):
person would say, they don't have anyone there that could
interpret that accurately. Um, the believer would just say that's
They just say, that's a bunk. So back at a
Zuza Street mission during the Revival of nineteen o six
or starting nineteen o six, they they said they reported
so there was a newspaper, um called the Apostolic Faith
(27:42):
Newspaper that was published out of a Zusa Street And
Um they said that during the revival, people were speaking
in Greek, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Zulu, Chippewa. Uh yeah, Um,
and there's again there's no documented evidence that anyone has
ever um been given the gift of zena glossia, which
(28:04):
is where you are just fluently speaking another language that
you don't know that you you have acquired the ability
to speak another language without studying it in any way,
shape or form. No one's ever um documented that. But
that was one of the early interpretations of what was
going on at a Zusa Street, that they the Holy
(28:26):
Spirit had come down given these people the gift of
zeno glossia, and now there they were to spread out
and become missionaries around the world too, so that they
could go spread the faith in these other native tongues.
Um and a lot of people did do that. I
don't know that they were able to immediately go and
speak in these other native tongues, but they probably picked
it up pretty quickly because immersion is the best way
(28:48):
to do it. But people did spread out from Azusa
Street and become um Pentecostal missionaries and founded Pentecostal churches.
Like that really is like kind of like the the
the origin point for the entire faith. Well, and wouldn't
you say that it's clearly like the Pentecostal Um missionaries
(29:10):
have done a great job considering it. The fact that
it's growing in the Global South. Yeah, how else would
they have heard about this stuff? Right? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah.
I think the proof is in the numbers, that that
there's a lot of people who are out there spreading
the word, and that there's a lot of people who
are feeling pretty receptive to that. Should we talk a
little bit about some more numbers? Um? The Pulletzer Center
(29:34):
Pulletzer Centers Atlas of pentecostal is M estimates that thirty
thirty five thousand people convert to pentecostal is Um every day,
every day. Um. We were talking about the Global South.
The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Nigeria claims to
have five million members in Nigeria alone. There's an article
(29:58):
that I read called I think Christianity is dying. No,
Christianity is shifting dramatically from West Grandberg Michaelson from two
thousand fifteen in the Washington Post. So should we talk
about more numbers or should we take a break and
talk about more numbers. Let's take a break and then
we'll talk more numbers. Okay, okay, alright, Tock late lay
(30:52):
some numbers on us. Man. Let me see here in
more Christians were found in the global South than the
North for the first time in a thousand years. Uh.
In the Christian community in Latin American Africa alone account
for one billion people. Yeah, and that's I mean, that's
pretty significant. How much how many or how I don't
(31:13):
I don't know how to say this, how much or
how many inroads? How much inroads? Neither ones? It sounds
like I'm speaking in tongues. So the how the inroads
that Pentecostals have made over time, um, because there's like
I think half a billion evangelicals and um, like two
(31:34):
thirds of those are Pentecostals right around the world. There's
like one point two billion Catholics, and forever the Catholics
have just been virtually untouchable, at least as far as
Christianity goes. Um. But the the Evangelicals are really kind
of starting to nip at their heels. And the other
thing that's that's um remarkable about it is just how
(31:54):
fast this is happening. Like like you're saying, it seems
like Onward was like a watershed chain and shift in
the growth of of Pentecostalism and evangelicalism around the world,
but it is kind of concentrated in that that Global South,
and there's a lot of people are trying to figure
out exactly why. UM. One of the reasons why is
(32:17):
because in the Global South, you know, parts of Africa,
Latin America, parts of Southeast Asia, UM, there there are
traditional religions still that are charismatic in structure right to
where you're interacting with spirits and you know, they have
an influence on your daily life and UM when you
(32:39):
engage in worship that may include dancing and singing and
individual expressions of being touched by you know, these these
spirits are the spirit and it bears a really striking
resemblance to Pentecostalism, so much so that if you kind
of trace Pentecostalism back you you can't help but wonder,
like did the exported religions from Frica to say, like
(33:01):
the Caribbean UM help shape Pentecostalism, and that Pentecostalism is
kind of like a like a reformed version of reformed
Christian version of this kind of UM worship that's now
being re exported back to the Global South, and that
that is what this part of the explanation for this
(33:22):
UM really eager receptionism among people in Latin America and
Africa and Southeast Asia. So the idea is that it
wasn't that big of a mental leap at the very least,
It's not like it's probably harder to to UM, introduce
Pentecostalism to Catholics in Cleveland than it is to um,
(33:48):
you know, people who follow Mashimo and Guatemala, because it
just because the type of worship bears a lot more
of a resemblance to to one another than it was
to say, like Catholics in Cleveland and the way that
they're used to worshiping. It makes sense so that they're
already kind of like okay, yeah, I get this, like
I can identify with this. It makes sense to me. Well.
(34:09):
The other thing too, that UM, I think of this
WAPO article, it gives a lot of food for thought
that Grandberg Michaelson tackles is uh immigration and migration UM.
Two d and fourteen million people and this was four
years ago have moved from their country to another country
as migrants and refugees. UM. That's a lot of people,
(34:32):
and about half of those a hundred and five million
of those people are Christians, which is a way higher
percentage than the you know, the comparable percentage of Christians
in the world. Yeah, so Christians are moving around the
world in big numbers everywhere, from the Middle East, in Africa,
the Mediterranean. And he makes a really good point that
(34:55):
like the same people in this country who are advocating
against immigration in the United States, a lot of them
are would consider themselves Christian people's and so he's like,
there's a disconnect between like these people coming up from Guatemala, Mexico,
(35:16):
a lot of which are Christian, saying well, we don't
want you here, even though that would help them further
a Christian and religious agenda, right exactly. And it's a
weird disconnect there, it is, because you're saying, like, well,
you know, we are all Pentecostals here, but you're also
from a different country further south than us. So like
that's the dividing line. The other thing that he he
(35:38):
points out is that migration typically tends to strengthen religious
faith and increase it so that the people who show
up are typically super religious. And it's just a process
of migration can make you yeah, exactly, and to to
make it makes you be like, wow, there must be
a God or else I wouldn't have made it here.
(35:59):
You know. So that the people who show up on
your doorstep as migrants are typically extremely religious. And he
points out that like both sides of the political equation
should be happy about that. UM. That like these these
spiritual renewals and and religious movements, you know, they can
be a double edged sword. On the one hand, they
can have they can call for very strict um behavioral codes,
(36:24):
women's reproductive rights can fall by the wayside or just
be suppressed outright. UM. But on the other hand, they
can also be good for society's morals, like they those
same strict behavioral codes also keep people in line and
keep them from doing crime. UM. And that that it
can it can be good and bad, like with the UM.
(36:45):
The it's called the Second Grade Awakening. In the middle
of the nineteenth century in America. It was a huge
religious movement, and it's credited with UM helping start the
movement to abolish slavery in the United States and to
UH to UH introduced the idea of women's suffrage. On
the other hand, it also introduced the Temperance movement, which
(37:05):
just was one of the worst things we've ever done.
But there there are like good and bad pluses and
minuses too general, you know, major religious movements and reawakenings.
Um And I think what this guy is saying is
there's a lot of pluses and positives that can come
with migrants, even though they're being portrayed in the exact
opposite light that there you know, rapists and murderers and criminals. Actually,
(37:29):
the people who are showing up as migrants are probably
more religious than the average American is, especially in America,
because religiousness in America is showing to be declining. So again,
you would think that people who were religious would want
their numbers to swell, even if it is through you know,
these migrants that they don't feel very highly about. It's
(37:50):
a very interesting juxtaposition, yes, very chuck, very So that's Pentecostals.
You got anything else? I got nothing else, man. They
are interesting. I was reading about them. They will break
off into a new church at the drop of a
hat over like a couple of words, man, And it's
happened very frequently. It's really interesting stuff to read their
(38:13):
history because it's also so modern and recent too. You know,
you can it's you know, a little over a century old,
so you can kind of recognize a lot of it
and identify with it. Okay, well that's it for Pentecostals.
And since I said that, it's time for listener mail. Uh,
this is a very very sweet email. Is this the
(38:33):
one janitors? Yeah? So if you remember, we talked about
with great fondness about our high school janitors in the
Transdermal Implant podcast. Of course, as you do. I'm not
sure how we got on that tangent. I don't even uh,
but this is from Emily. She says, Josh talked about
how his janitor was a grizzled older woman. Chuck mentioned
(38:56):
that his was a tall, lanky gentleman. But despite the differences,
you both remembered them with such affection and respect. It
gave me the warm fuzzies hearing you talk so fondly
of these people. For the simple fact that my grandma
was a high school janitor. She is one of the sweetest,
classiest people I've ever known, but one of the hardest
workers as well. She worked at the high school in
her little town of Gettysburg, South Dakota with my grandpa,
(39:19):
who was a science, art and health teacher for at
least twenty five years. My mom was born and raised
in this town and talks about whenever she was having
a bad day or didn't feel like going to class,
she would just find out where her mom was cleaning,
go hang out with her for a bit. That's so cute.
Like me, when it's my father, the principle, I would
do the same thing. Yeah, I think that's very sweet.
(39:40):
Needs to get out of here, come back to class here,
take some dome domes, and get out of here. As
for how my grandma enjoyed her work as a janitor,
she says she didn't mind most of the cleaning, except
whenever someone threw up. I can imagine you could. You
could go your whole life without ever getting used to that.
And Emily closes with this, I just want to remind
everyone out there that your janitor is someone's grandma or
(40:02):
mom or dad or uncle or whatever. They are special
to someone, so please treat them and their job with respect.
I love the show, guys. Keep up with a good work,
and thanks for always being kind and respectful of everyone.
And that is from Emily. I hope we were kind
of respectfully Christians today. I'm pretty sure we were. I
(40:23):
think we did an okay job. Yeah, thanks a lot
for that one, Emily. She also sent a picture of
um a photo from the newspaper of her grandma and
grandpa together at school and they are a cute cute couple. Yep,
I love it. Well. If you want to tell us
something adorable, we love that kind of stuff. You can
get in touch with us by sending us an email,
(40:44):
Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send
it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.
Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart
Radios How Stuff Works. From more podcasts my heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where ever
you listen to your favorite shows. H m hm
Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I'm here to tell
you it's official. We're going to be in Vancouver, b C.
And Portland, Oregon this March. On March twenty nine, will
be at the Chance Center in Vancouver and on March
will be at the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall in Portland.
So come see us. Tickets go on sale this Friday.
(00:21):
Go to s y s K live dot com for
ticket links and info and everything you need and we'll
see you guys in March. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,
a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hellellujah
and welcome to Stuff you Should Know. I'm Josh, There's Chuck,
(00:47):
there's Josh t over there, and uh, this is, like
I said, stuff you should know. Hey, you know we
should plug Josh's record. Can you get that anywhere? Josh
Migrant Worker? All right, he's got a new album out.
He's a very talented musician. What's the name of the
album self titled? I don't think they wrote out self titled.
(01:09):
I think it's just called Migrant Worker. And it looks great.
I haven't heard it yet, but the artwork is is amazing,
and I know Josh is talented, So yeah, go out
there and find it. Everyone. Jerry's not in a band, No, no,
you know, I mean, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna
weigh their individual talents against one another. But Jerry's not
in a band. What if Jerry is like secretly in
(01:31):
a Heart tribute band or something that would be that
would make my life. Yeah, well, I want to hear
the album to Josh. Okay, okay, says Josh um So Chuck.
I said Hallelujah to start this one off. And the
reason I did that because it was a nod to Pentecostalism,
(01:52):
which is why we're going to talk about today. That's right.
I could have sworn we did an episode on speaking
in tongues. We did not. We did went on faith
healing and snake handling. Yes, both of those were excellent,
and we must have talked about speaking in tongues some
enduring both of those. Yes, but we're gonna talk about
a little bit more because it's a big part of
(02:14):
the Pentecostal movement, which huge surprisingly and you may have
been the one that dropped that stat on me recently
about being the fastest growing sect of Christianity is that right, Yeah,
I did. It was the other the other day. I
don't know where it was, and he said, well, maybe
it was just Ah, I can't remember what you said evangelical. Yeah,
(02:37):
I think I that doesn't sound like me. I probably
said look it up. Of course I'm right. Oh goodness,
that was a great Josh impression. But it is true.
It is um, And I guess it just seemed counterintuitive
because I naively thought that pentecostal Ism was sort of
antiquated and something that was going away. Oh. No, that
(03:00):
how they get you. That's what they want you to
think of. The family spring on you. If there was
a snake in your face. They say, here, hold this center. No,
but we're gonna be respectful here because it's pretty interesting.
I think. Starting now, okay, uh, we need to get
in the way back machine, though, and go back to
where this all began. Um, not really where it all began,
(03:20):
because in truth that would be Biblical times, but where
it began as a modern thing, is uh not that
long ago nineteen o six in downtown Los Angeles they
had something going on called the Azusa Street Revival, which
we talked about that in The Faith Healing Episode two Yeah,
it was a very big deal. This was at the
(03:41):
Apostolic Faith Mission in downtown l A. There right on
Azusa Street. Um, downtown I looked l A looked very
different back then, obviously. Yeah, this is like the industrial
area I saw. Yeah, I mean now it's just downtown
l A. You're like the toy the toy zone. What
do you call it the toy zone, not the zone.
(04:03):
What do you call an area where district, toy district.
There's a toy district there is. Yeah, downtown he's got
a toy district. That's in a fashion district. It's where
like you go get raw fabrics off the truck or
cheap toys straight off the boat. That kind of thing.
Got okay, it's not like just a wonderlantern. I know.
I was like, I want to go see this. This
(04:24):
sounds amazing. I want to go to the toy zone. Yeah,
they zone. So, Um, this was going on back then
down there. Uh. And that was led by a minister
and African American minister from Louisiana named William Seymour. Yeah.
And what was interesting about this, um is that this
is six and at the Zooza Street Mission. Um, this
(04:48):
was a like a like black and white. I'm not
sure about Hispanic, but I would not be at all
surprised it was Hispanic as well. Okay, they were like
UM races worshiping together UM, and it was a very
big deal. Just that alone was a very big deal.
But what makes this the start of pentecostal is M
is that UM at some point, I think in April
(05:09):
of nineteen o six, they started holding UM three services
a day, seven days a week, and these were like
marathon hours long services each one. And the reason that
they were doing this is because if you're a Pentecostal Um,
you believe that the Holy Spirit UM had descended upon
(05:30):
the Azusa Street mission and was in baptizing all of
these people with fire and causing them to UM speak
in tongues, to dance, a clap, to sing, and basically
revived religion as as or Christianity as we know it. Like,
that's what happened here in Los Angeles starting in April
(05:52):
of nineteen o six, that's right. And they get that
that goes back to the biblical days where the eleven
remaining disciples after Christ was crucified, because you know, Judas
was the twelve you know what happened to him. He
didn't pan out so well, he didn't pan out so well,
(06:13):
didn't kill himself after that? Yeah, he hung himself. Hanged himself.
Excuse me, I always get that wrong. I always get
that wrong too. But those eleven remaining disciples were baptized
in the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Ghost
and began to speak in other tongues during the Pentecost feast,
which was a Jewish feast named so because it was
(06:35):
I think fifty days after uh, the Crucifixion, after Passover,
after Passover, and the in is Greek. Pentecost is Greek, right, Well,
well put chuck, oh yeah, yeah, So what happened at
that first Pentecost feast back in the first century, see
(06:56):
was um they were like you said, they were by
eight in the Holy Spirit. They were speaking in tongues.
They suddenly had powers to like heal and all this
happened at that Pentecost feast. Um. And in apparently in
the Bible it basically says, um, hang around and wait
for this to happen again, and you will know this
(07:18):
will be a sign that the second Coming of Christ
is at hand. And so again if you're a Pentecostal,
you believe that in April of nineteen o six, the
Holy Spirit showed up on earth again and basically bathe
these followers in it in itself, in the Holy Spirit um,
(07:38):
and to announce that Christ was coming again for the
second time. That's right, and this um, if you are
a complete agnostic or atheist, nonbeliever, this all sounds very weird. Probably,
But even back then and now, if you are um
a non Pentecostal Christian, let's say, you might think it's
(08:00):
pretty weird too. Um. It got a lot of blowback
back in nineteen o six from U Christians and atheists alike.
The l A Times. It was a reporter who wrote
a story entitled Weird Babble of Tongues, where they wrote
about attendees breathing strange utterances and malving a creed, which
it would seem no sane mortal could understand. Devotees of
(08:24):
the Weird Doctrine practice the most fanatical rights, preached the
wildest theories and work themselves into a state of mad
excitement and so um. It wasn't just the Los Angeles
Times that thought this was a little odd. There was
a guy named Charles Parham, who five years earlier is
(08:44):
considered possibly the actual founder of Pentecostalism. Because this is
really important. Speaking in tongues is the the basis. It's
the thing that differentiates Pentecostalism from everything else. The idea
that you can speak in tongues and when you do
speak in tongues is because you are being baptized by
the Holy Spirit and your your souls being sanctified, and
(09:06):
that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not actually
saved yet. That's that's the big differentiator. Well back in
nineteen o one and topeaka Kansas, Charles param was preaching
and one of his church members, Agnes uh Ose and
I think her name was, started speaking in tongues. And
so some people are like, no, this was the first
appearance of this Holy Spirit that was announcing the second
(09:28):
Coming of Christ. Other people are like, yeah, yeah, Agnes
is great and we'll we'll give her her do. But
really it was the Zuzu Street Revival where it wasn't
just one person, it was everybody who came this this revival,
this um, this thing where people were dancing and clapping
and speaking in tongues. For essentially the first time ever
or at least since the the Apostles back in the
(09:51):
first century. Um, this went on for years. They held
three services a day, seven days a week, four years,
and people were coming and being ecstatic and having just
a heck of a time. Almost said, a hell of
a time at this mission. Um, it's like nine years total. Yeah,
and then spreading out and going out into the world
(10:12):
to basically say, Hey, everybody, Jesus is coming. Look busy.
Do you remember that that was like Stephen King's favorite
T shirt for a teenager to be wearing, Jesus is
coming and look busy. Yeah. If you read his stuff
from the seventies, like in every book there's a teenager wearing. Yeah,
that's like George Constanzas when he stumbled upon the thing
(10:34):
that if he looked annoyed every time someone passed his office,
then they thought he was working hard. Serenity. Now, Uh,
One thing we should point out to that the early
Pentecostals were oddly ahead of the curve and allowing women
to take leadership roles in the church at a times,
(10:56):
and many times women of color. And this was not
the norm in nineteen o six in any capa city um.
So we should give them their due for that. Well.
In fact, William Seymour, the guy who was heading the
Zuosas Street Um revival Um, he married a white woman
and he believed that the races um worshiping together was
(11:16):
a clear sign that you know, God was present, the
Holy Spirit was present, and that this was like the
real deal, like this was really happening. But what's ironic
and kind of I guess tragic even about it is
that there was a faction that split off at the
mission um and a group left the mission and founded
(11:37):
basically their own branch of pentecostali Um. There's like one
really clear through line that aside from the um the
like religious beliefs of Evangelicalism and pentecostal um um. And
that is the politics of it, right, so true, So
there'll be some leader who comes along and says, no,
(11:58):
this and this literal interpretation is being interpreted incorrectly. We
know it's actually you're supposed to say this word. And
all of a sudden, this guy's got his own his
own church with his own followers, and they spread their
own word right Um. This happened at the Azuza Street
Mission and out of that came the two largest congregations
UM that are in the United States at least, the
(12:19):
Church of God in Christ, which is predominantly African American,
and the Assemblies of God, which is predominantly white. And
so what started out is this really amazing like um
racially mixed, multi racial UM ecstatic worship of God split
into two different factions of the same thing that divided
(12:43):
along racial lines. Amazing. Yeah, So let's take a break
and we'll come back and talk a little bit about
what's happened since then, and uh, what Pentecostals believe and
why they're growing so quickly. Alright, So before the break,
(13:28):
you mentioned the Church of God in Christ, largely African American,
six point five million members, not too shabby. Assemblies of
God three point two million members. Also, I mean a
lot of stats in here as we go, UM to
really drive home what what has happened here? What has happened?
(13:50):
Something golful? It's not how I mean in NT six
percent of all global Christians were Pentecostals. By two thousand fifteen,
that had grown to twenty five from two fifteen. That's astounding.
It's like a nineteen percent jump and but also, Chuck,
that means that one in four one and four Christians
(14:13):
are Pentecostals. Now, yeah, and I think the stat from
that Washington Post article says one in twelve human beings
on planet Earth are Pentecostal, of just all humans. Yes,
And if you're a Pentecostal, you're like, well, that's clear
evidence that the Holy Spirit is spreading throughout the world. Um,
this is not just the United States, in fact, it is.
(14:37):
It is such a big deal because it's a global movement. UM.
What is referred to as the Global South UM, which
is Africa UM or regions of Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia.
The Global South is booming with even with I'm sorry Pentecostals.
That's right, um, And I mean we'll talk a little
(14:59):
more about that, but just kind of put a pin
in that that that is I was right that it
is the fastest growing religion or religious sect. Yeah. So
there's this guy, he's a New Testament professor at evangel
University of Missouri named Martin middle Stat and he's quoted
a lot in this Uh who wrote this was this
Dave Ruse. I don't know, I didn't he might have
(15:21):
been Dave. But it seems like the author got an
interview with with Mr middle Statt. I don't know if
he's a doctor or not, but he he had a
lot of great light to shine on this and kind
of what's going on. Lightbringer, he's a lightbringer? Um, he said, sorry,
Dr Oh, you just called him doctor and he might
(15:43):
not be. But I also just called him Lucifer to well,
good point, Dr Lucifer. All right. So he said that
this is kind of like any kind of restoration or
renewal movement within Christianity that happens when and it's happened
over time in different ways, but that happens when Christians
feel like, hey, we've been ignoring something pretty important here
(16:07):
in the Bible directly from from Christ's words, and we
need to recover that in a big way. And in
this case, they're talking about the Book of Acts, which
details what we went over earlier of what happened with
the disciples after the passover. Right wait, wait and there
so like this this idea is that it's literally being recovered,
(16:29):
like there is this is literally happening. The Holy Spirit,
as prophecied, is returning to Earth and andy in hearkening
the Second Coming of Christ, right, yeah, so so like
these renewal and reform movements have happened before, and in fact,
some people trace Pentecostalism to one in the late nineteenth
(16:51):
century called the Holiness Movement. And these these renewals um
that follow in the tradition of the Holiness Movement. They
are based on um, like a charismatic belief that's it's
really easier to explain what it's not, and that is
that stayed kind of call and response service where everybody
sits down, stands up all at the same time, and
(17:14):
it's it's very structured. Charismatic worship is the exact opposite
of that. It's not structured. It almost seems like things
are coming apart at the seams. Um. People are dancing
and clapping, everybody's almost doing their own thing, and it's
like there's a lot of room for you to have
your own experience directly with the Holy Spirit, not necessarily
(17:37):
just through this preacher or this priest or whoever is
acting as the conduit like in a normal service. This
is like the Holy spirits there in the room and
everybody's interacting with it in their own way. Yeah, which
Um sounds kind of fun, to be honest. I grew
up in a Baptist church that was the opposite. It
was one of these very sort of dry things. Every
(17:58):
Sunday you would get your sermon that had to wrap
up by noon because the pot roast was in the
slow cooker and the falcons were gonna come on in
an hour, and you could feel people getting anty. You know.
It was just one of those deals. That's the church
I went to. I remember we had a guy that
came and visited one week that sat on the front
(18:18):
row and started, uh started talking back, Oh yeah, oh yeah,
started and just with like you know, you know, all
all glory, hallelujah. So you know, they were just I
was like, what is going on? Everyone did? Everyone was
like what is this guy doing? Um, we don't do
that here. There was They didn't say that, but that
was the feeling. I think that man turned out to
(18:42):
be St. Paul. I just remember being a kid and
hearing him and seeing the reaction of people and getting
the feeling that they're all like, don't screw this up
for us, buddy, we uh yeah, right, were gonna doing things. Yeah,
we can get out of here. In forty five minutes
just clamb up. Um. I went to a funeral recently
at a Pentecostal church and it was something else. But
(19:04):
there there were people speaking in tongues and a lot
of like shouting back and and like like you were saying,
like that guy in the front row right there, Oh,
I was in the thick of it. Yeah, And um,
it was like it wasn't just that one guy, it
was everybody there was doing that and they were doing
it like at their own, like on their own terms,
(19:24):
on their own speed, and um, it was really it
was something to see. It was really impressive. I would
pay cash money to see a hidden camera video of
you during that. I was playing it super cool. I
bet every once a while did you go right on man? Yeah,
I said, freebird. I'm not into this, but you guys
(19:45):
seem cool. No, I was. I was there and being
explicitly not judging of course, you know, Like I was
like I was a guest there, and I felt kind
of honored to have been invited because everybody knew who
knew me that was there knew that I'm not into
that at all. But I also didn't want to put
out any kind of vibe like I was being judging
or anything. Would you even go if you're just gonna
(20:07):
sit there and smirk, you know, that's no fun. Well yeah, exactly.
But also I was very um. I had a lot
of respect and admiration for the deceased, I thought, you
can say. I was also very drunk. I had taken
some shrooms a couple of hours before, and it really
made everything even more interesting. That's cool. I'm glad you
had that experience. Yeah, me too, Actually, me too. I
(20:28):
think people should experience all kinds of things in their
life like this that. But yeah, can possibly uncomfortable, exactly,
And and like I could also see I was like, yeah,
you know, like if you're really kind of open to
this or even on the fence about it, you can
feel how somebody would get swept up and be like, yeah,
this is what I believe, you know. I mean, the
(20:48):
word charismatic is an excellent word for um for that
that type of worship, like it's perfect, but it's not.
And we tend to think of it as like Pentecostals
who just do that, and it's not. There's actually different
charismatic movements that revived other Christian sex to like Catholicism
had one back in nineteen seven, the Methodists had a
(21:11):
charismatic revival, and um, it's typically kind of looked upon
favorably by church leaders because they're like, all right, this
is a little weird. We might start having to go
an hour and a half of our services. But ultimately
what it represents is people coming along and saying this
religious sect is not dying. We're gonna breathe new life
into it. Or if you believe in this kind of stuff,
(21:34):
the Holy Spirit has chosen to breathe new life into
this sect to keep it from dying off. Or it's
good for business. That's another way to look at it
for sure. And we'll we'll talk about some people who
are who view the whole thing kind of transactionally to uh.
So we should point out to you here about the
different kinds of baptism. When we're talking about someone being
(21:55):
quote unquote saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit, this
is a you're at baptism. It is if you've seen
uh people get dunked in the pool or in a river.
If you're in a more rural church, that is a
water baptism that is merely a symbolic public gesture to
kind of celebrate and tell everyone, Hey, I had the
(22:17):
spirit baptism. I'm saved now, so hey, get a load
of me. Yeah, get a load of me. Watch I'll
get dunked. Yeah. But if you're a Pentecostal, you're basically like,
that's that's great. That's a nice first quarter step, right that.
And it's not just Pentecostals who believe that, Like I
think you know, if you're Catholic, when you're baptized, you're baptized.
(22:38):
It's just done. You have a water baptism and you
are officially baptized, your your your baby soul is not
going to go to purgatory any longer. You can finally
go to heaven, right with Like Baptists, I believe the
water baptism is enough too. But what differentiates evangelicals from
other other religious sects that believe that by Baptist baptism
(23:00):
through water you're saved right then? Um? Evangelicals are like, no,
you've just said that, Okay, I'm dedicating myself to God
into Christ specifically. But what differentiates evangelicals is that there's
still some other thing coming, and that's that baptism by
the Holy Spirit. Well, it was the different in my church.
It was you wait till you have that spiritual baptism
(23:23):
and then afterward you have the public water baptism. Oh
is that right? Okay, okay, so I've got that backwards.
But but that's what so so even so, then I
guess would Baptists be considered a type of evangelicals? I
don't know. I don't know either. But here's what I
found that differentiates evangelicals or that defines evangelicals. You're ready.
(23:44):
There's a scholar from Baylor. He's an historian, but he's
also an evangelical scholar named David Bebington, David W. Bebington,
and he defines evangelicals as subscribing to four big points.
One is that the Bible is the literal word of God,
where like, if you're reading that God wrote that, do
(24:05):
not question it, do not try to interpret it any
other way, Like it is literally on its face what
it means is the word of God. The second second
point is that Jesus, Jesus suffered on the cross and
died in order to cover humanity, and that you can
(24:26):
be saved by accepting that as fact. That Jesus Christ
is your savior. Man, I feel like we're having a
revival here ourselves. Okay, we've worked up this. The third
one is that you have to be born again by
a baptism by the Holy Spirit. So I don't know
if you could technically get away with not doing the
(24:47):
water baptism, because the evangelicals say it's that baptism by
Holy Spirit where you're overcoming, you're clapping and singing and
speaking in tongues and all that. Well, not speaking in tongues,
but you're clapping and singing and you have like been
bathed and baptized by the Holy Spirit. That that's how
you're actually saved. Okay, okay. Point four is that you
(25:09):
have to be an activist um an evangelists who is
actively working on converting the world to Godliness uh and
Christianity to prepare for the second coming of Christ. It's
not enough to just be like, oh, they're doing it wrong.
You have to go over and explain to them how
they're doing it wrong and how to do it right. Yeah,
(25:30):
I mean that was that was I think all four
of those fall under what I grew up with in
my church. Okay, then what then? What separates evangelicals from
pentecostal is that Pentecostals believe that baptism by the Holy
Spirit involves specifically speaking in tongues, and that if you
don't speak in tongues when you're baptized by the Holy Spirit,
you haven't actually been sanctified and made pure so that
(25:54):
you can get into Heaven and you're a true you
know Christian. I guess right, all right, that clears up
a lot. Thank you. You can subscribe to my news letter. Um,
so let's talk about speaking in tongues. There are a
couple of ways that this can happen. Um. It's also
called spontaneous speech. UM. It could come through as a
(26:16):
foreign language that you don't know. They call that xenoglossia.
There's basically no documented case of that ever. Right, So
when I say this can happen, these are the ways
that it's broken down in theory um or nonsensical utterances,
which is called gloss lalia. And that's whinning. You know,
(26:37):
if you've ever seen, well, if you've ever seen people
speaking tongues, or if you've ever seen the movie Cape
Fear with Robert de Niro at the end when he's
going into the water. Um, that's that's what he's doing.
Is it sounds it's a nonsensical divine utterance, is what
it's defined as. Yes, supposedly God's the only one who
can understand what you're saying, but you're actually speaking in
(26:58):
a language that God understands. Right. And the other thing
is somewhere in the Bible it says that if you're
gonna speak in tongues, you should only do it in public,
like if you're in church, you should only do that
if there's someone there to interpret that message. And Pentecostals
say nuts to that. They do because they the cynical
(27:19):
person would say, they don't have anyone there that could
interpret that accurately. Um, the believer would just say that's
They just say, that's a bunk. So back at a
Zuza Street mission during the Revival of nineteen o six
or starting nineteen o six, they they said they reported
so there was a newspaper, um called the Apostolic Faith
(27:42):
Newspaper that was published out of a Zusa Street And
Um they said that during the revival, people were speaking
in Greek, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Zulu, Chippewa. Uh yeah, Um,
and there's again there's no documented evidence that anyone has
ever um been given the gift of zena glossia, which
(28:04):
is where you are just fluently speaking another language that
you don't know that you you have acquired the ability
to speak another language without studying it in any way,
shape or form. No one's ever um documented that. But
that was one of the early interpretations of what was
going on at a Zusa Street, that they the Holy
(28:26):
Spirit had come down given these people the gift of
zeno glossia, and now there they were to spread out
and become missionaries around the world too, so that they
could go spread the faith in these other native tongues.
Um and a lot of people did do that. I
don't know that they were able to immediately go and
speak in these other native tongues, but they probably picked
it up pretty quickly because immersion is the best way
(28:48):
to do it. But people did spread out from Azusa
Street and become um Pentecostal missionaries and founded Pentecostal churches.
Like that really is like kind of like the the
the origin point for the entire faith. Well, and wouldn't
you say that it's clearly like the Pentecostal Um missionaries
(29:10):
have done a great job considering it. The fact that
it's growing in the Global South. Yeah, how else would
they have heard about this stuff? Right? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah.
I think the proof is in the numbers, that that
there's a lot of people who are out there spreading
the word, and that there's a lot of people who
are feeling pretty receptive to that. Should we talk a
little bit about some more numbers? Um? The Pulletzer Center
(29:34):
Pulletzer Centers Atlas of pentecostal is M estimates that thirty
thirty five thousand people convert to pentecostal is Um every day,
every day. Um. We were talking about the Global South.
The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Nigeria claims to
have five million members in Nigeria alone. There's an article
(29:58):
that I read called I think Christianity is dying. No,
Christianity is shifting dramatically from West Grandberg Michaelson from two
thousand fifteen in the Washington Post. So should we talk
about more numbers or should we take a break and
talk about more numbers. Let's take a break and then
we'll talk more numbers. Okay, okay, alright, Tock late lay
(30:52):
some numbers on us. Man. Let me see here in
more Christians were found in the global South than the
North for the first time in a thousand years. Uh.
In the Christian community in Latin American Africa alone account
for one billion people. Yeah, and that's I mean, that's
pretty significant. How much how many or how I don't
(31:13):
I don't know how to say this, how much or
how many inroads? How much inroads? Neither ones? It sounds
like I'm speaking in tongues. So the how the inroads
that Pentecostals have made over time, um, because there's like
I think half a billion evangelicals and um, like two
(31:34):
thirds of those are Pentecostals right around the world. There's
like one point two billion Catholics, and forever the Catholics
have just been virtually untouchable, at least as far as
Christianity goes. Um. But the the Evangelicals are really kind
of starting to nip at their heels. And the other
thing that's that's um remarkable about it is just how
(31:54):
fast this is happening. Like like you're saying, it seems
like Onward was like a watershed chain and shift in
the growth of of Pentecostalism and evangelicalism around the world,
but it is kind of concentrated in that that Global South,
and there's a lot of people are trying to figure
out exactly why. UM. One of the reasons why is
(32:17):
because in the Global South, you know, parts of Africa,
Latin America, parts of Southeast Asia, UM, there there are
traditional religions still that are charismatic in structure right to
where you're interacting with spirits and you know, they have
an influence on your daily life and UM when you
(32:39):
engage in worship that may include dancing and singing and
individual expressions of being touched by you know, these these
spirits are the spirit and it bears a really striking
resemblance to Pentecostalism, so much so that if you kind
of trace Pentecostalism back you you can't help but wonder,
like did the exported religions from Frica to say, like
(33:01):
the Caribbean UM help shape Pentecostalism, and that Pentecostalism is
kind of like a like a reformed version of reformed
Christian version of this kind of UM worship that's now
being re exported back to the Global South, and that
that is what this part of the explanation for this
(33:22):
UM really eager receptionism among people in Latin America and
Africa and Southeast Asia. So the idea is that it
wasn't that big of a mental leap at the very least,
It's not like it's probably harder to to UM, introduce
Pentecostalism to Catholics in Cleveland than it is to um,
(33:48):
you know, people who follow Mashimo and Guatemala, because it
just because the type of worship bears a lot more
of a resemblance to to one another than it was
to say, like Catholics in Cleveland and the way that
they're used to worshiping. It makes sense so that they're
already kind of like okay, yeah, I get this, like
I can identify with this. It makes sense to me. Well.
(34:09):
The other thing too, that UM, I think of this
WAPO article, it gives a lot of food for thought
that Grandberg Michaelson tackles is uh immigration and migration UM.
Two d and fourteen million people and this was four
years ago have moved from their country to another country
as migrants and refugees. UM. That's a lot of people,
(34:32):
and about half of those a hundred and five million
of those people are Christians, which is a way higher
percentage than the you know, the comparable percentage of Christians
in the world. Yeah, so Christians are moving around the
world in big numbers everywhere, from the Middle East, in Africa,
the Mediterranean. And he makes a really good point that
(34:55):
like the same people in this country who are advocating
against immigration in the United States, a lot of them
are would consider themselves Christian people's and so he's like,
there's a disconnect between like these people coming up from Guatemala, Mexico,
(35:16):
a lot of which are Christian, saying well, we don't
want you here, even though that would help them further
a Christian and religious agenda, right exactly. And it's a
weird disconnect there, it is, because you're saying, like, well,
you know, we are all Pentecostals here, but you're also
from a different country further south than us. So like
that's the dividing line. The other thing that he he
(35:38):
points out is that migration typically tends to strengthen religious
faith and increase it so that the people who show
up are typically super religious. And it's just a process
of migration can make you yeah, exactly, and to to
make it makes you be like, wow, there must be
a God or else I wouldn't have made it here.
(35:59):
You know. So that the people who show up on
your doorstep as migrants are typically extremely religious. And he
points out that like both sides of the political equation
should be happy about that. UM. That like these these
spiritual renewals and and religious movements, you know, they can
be a double edged sword. On the one hand, they
can have they can call for very strict um behavioral codes,
(36:24):
women's reproductive rights can fall by the wayside or just
be suppressed outright. UM. But on the other hand, they
can also be good for society's morals, like they those
same strict behavioral codes also keep people in line and
keep them from doing crime. UM. And that that it
can it can be good and bad, like with the UM.
(36:45):
The it's called the Second Grade Awakening. In the middle
of the nineteenth century in America. It was a huge
religious movement, and it's credited with UM helping start the
movement to abolish slavery in the United States and to
UH to UH introduced the idea of women's suffrage. On
the other hand, it also introduced the Temperance movement, which
(37:05):
just was one of the worst things we've ever done.
But there there are like good and bad pluses and
minuses too general, you know, major religious movements and reawakenings.
Um And I think what this guy is saying is
there's a lot of pluses and positives that can come
with migrants, even though they're being portrayed in the exact
opposite light that there you know, rapists and murderers and criminals. Actually,
(37:29):
the people who are showing up as migrants are probably
more religious than the average American is, especially in America,
because religiousness in America is showing to be declining. So again,
you would think that people who were religious would want
their numbers to swell, even if it is through you know,
these migrants that they don't feel very highly about. It's
(37:50):
a very interesting juxtaposition, yes, very chuck, very So that's Pentecostals.
You got anything else? I got nothing else, man. They
are interesting. I was reading about them. They will break
off into a new church at the drop of a
hat over like a couple of words, man, And it's
happened very frequently. It's really interesting stuff to read their
(38:13):
history because it's also so modern and recent too. You know,
you can it's you know, a little over a century old,
so you can kind of recognize a lot of it
and identify with it. Okay, well that's it for Pentecostals.
And since I said that, it's time for listener mail. Uh,
this is a very very sweet email. Is this the
(38:33):
one janitors? Yeah? So if you remember, we talked about
with great fondness about our high school janitors in the
Transdermal Implant podcast. Of course, as you do. I'm not
sure how we got on that tangent. I don't even uh,
but this is from Emily. She says, Josh talked about
how his janitor was a grizzled older woman. Chuck mentioned
(38:56):
that his was a tall, lanky gentleman. But despite the differences,
you both remembered them with such affection and respect. It
gave me the warm fuzzies hearing you talk so fondly
of these people. For the simple fact that my grandma
was a high school janitor. She is one of the sweetest,
classiest people I've ever known, but one of the hardest
workers as well. She worked at the high school in
her little town of Gettysburg, South Dakota with my grandpa,
(39:19):
who was a science, art and health teacher for at
least twenty five years. My mom was born and raised
in this town and talks about whenever she was having
a bad day or didn't feel like going to class,
she would just find out where her mom was cleaning,
go hang out with her for a bit. That's so cute.
Like me, when it's my father, the principle, I would
do the same thing. Yeah, I think that's very sweet.
(39:40):
Needs to get out of here, come back to class here,
take some dome domes, and get out of here. As
for how my grandma enjoyed her work as a janitor,
she says she didn't mind most of the cleaning, except
whenever someone threw up. I can imagine you could. You
could go your whole life without ever getting used to that.
And Emily closes with this, I just want to remind
everyone out there that your janitor is someone's grandma or
(40:02):
mom or dad or uncle or whatever. They are special
to someone, so please treat them and their job with respect.
I love the show, guys. Keep up with a good work,
and thanks for always being kind and respectful of everyone.
And that is from Emily. I hope we were kind
of respectfully Christians today. I'm pretty sure we were. I
(40:23):
think we did an okay job. Yeah, thanks a lot
for that one, Emily. She also sent a picture of
um a photo from the newspaper of her grandma and
grandpa together at school and they are a cute cute couple. Yep,
I love it. Well. If you want to tell us
something adorable, we love that kind of stuff. You can
get in touch with us by sending us an email,
(40:44):
Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send
it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.
Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart
Radios How Stuff Works. From more podcasts my heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where ever
you listen to your favorite shows. H m hm
Stuff You Should Know News
Hosts And Creators
Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
Show Links
AboutOrder Our BookStoreSYSK ArmyRSSPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.