August 23, 2023 • 40 mins
From the time Daddy Grace founded the United House of Prayer in 1919, his life was not without controversy: from his appearance, to how much money he made (and the taxes he paid – or didn’t pay), to suspicions of Communism, and worse. In fact, Daddy Grace seemed to be constantly battling the US government on various charges. But how much of this was real? And how much was just an excuse for Uncle Sam to try to bring down a powerful Black man?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
It's July fourth, nineteen ten Reno, Nevada. More than sixteen
thousand fans pack into a wooden arena, eyes fixed on
the boxing match below them. Everyone is focused on the
two men in the ring. They've been at it for
nearly an hour, and cracks, at least in one of
(00:29):
them are starting to show. In one corner is Jack Johnson,
the raining heavyweight champion of the world and the first
black man to ever hold that title. In the other
corner is Jim Jeffries, a two hundred and twenty pounds
former champion who'd come out of retirement strictly for this
(00:51):
to take that title away. Jeffries has been nicknamed the
Great White Hope, and this match, it's billed as the
fight of the century. The crowd, which is almost all white,
is at full throated volume and clearly in support of Jeffries,
as are the bookies. No one seemed to consider that
(01:13):
a young black man at the height of his abilities
and strength, the best in the world, could beat a
man who had to lose fifty pounds to get in
shape in time for the match. No one, of course,
except for Jack Johnson himself. He is calm, confident, He
is ready. Nothing Jeffries does bases him. He is just
(01:37):
waiting for the right moment. And then it comes. The
fifteenth round. Jack Johnson throws a flurry of punches. They
catch Jeffries and send him to the match. It's the
first time Jeffreys has ever been knocked down in his
entire career. The crowd is shocked. They shout at the
(01:59):
Great White Hope to get back up. He manages to
stumble to his feet, but Johnson hits Jeffreys again. The
blow knocks Jeffrey's back and he falls out of the ring.
A fan rushes to him pushes him up, but Jack
Johnson is ready. He charges and lands another hard right.
(02:21):
Jeffrey stumbles for the third time and goes down. The
match is called before Johnson can deliver a knockout, saving
the Great White Hope from the ultimate embarrassment. Jack Johnson,
a black man, has won the fight of the century
in a time when white America can barely recognize the
(02:42):
humanity of black people. He was unequivocally the best in
the world. He was also rich. He earned over sixty
five thousand dollars from the fight, more than two million
dollars today and white America, it wasn't happy. In the
hours that followed the fight, millions of white Americans seethed.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
They took to the.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Streets, They rioted, They set buildings ablaze, and terrorized black
neighborhoods across the country in payback for Jack Johnson's victory
in the ring. Jack Johnson won the Fight of the
Century in nineteen ten. Daddy Grace started his church nine
years later in nineteen nineteen, and when he too became
(03:32):
famous and amazingly wealthy, he also triggered much of that
same racist anger that Johnson did. He may not have
literally beaten up white men to get his wealth and power,
but to many it felt much the same. When a
black man, especially one in the first half of the
(03:53):
twentieth century, stands proudly on the world stage and declares
himself a man equal to all others, and that same
man is also rich and powerful, that means he is
an advertisement for black self worth and a direct attack
on white supremacy. So whether he is a professional boxer
(04:17):
or a preacher, that black man will need to be
put in his place, if not by riots, then by
the power of the state. I'm Marcy de Pina and
from iHeart Podcasts Enforce the media group. This is Sweet
Daddy Grace. This is a show about Daddy Grace, but
(05:28):
it's important to remember that he was also part of
a time and was impacted by others in the culture.
Jack Johnson was a powerful force in the early nineteen hundreds,
but it's more than boxing. He upset the social contract
of America. He was a black man who believed his
success entitled him to whatever pleasures he could afford for him.
(05:53):
This meant white women American culture was not ready for
Jack Johnson. He was unapologetically black at a time when
just being black at the wrong place and time could
get you murdered. Jack Johnson was such a domineering presence
in the culture.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He changed how.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Americans viewed not just him, but all successful black men,
including Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So Jack Johnson is another one of these you know,
flamboyant African American men, right, I mean, coming out of Galveston, Texas,
the Galveston Giant the first decade of nineteen hundreds, wins
the heavyweight championship of the world. And he wasn't quiet, right,
I Mean, he was like one, I'm not only gonna
whoop up on white boys, right, but I'm gonna date
(06:40):
your women rightly? Oh like Jack, what do you do
with my man?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's doctor Hassan Jeffries again. He teaches and studies the
civil rights and Black power movements at the Ohio State University.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So Jack Johnson becomes a target. And so because he
was that flamboyancy not only in the ring but also
saying I'm going to date your women too, they literally
create a law that says it's illegal to transport a
woman from one state to another cross state lines federal
law for the purpose of prostitution.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
That law, it was called the Man Act. It was
passed in nineteen ten. It forbade the transportation of quote,
any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery,
or for any other immoral purpose. It was intentionally broad,
which is why it was used against Jack Johnson.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
If you could just be shown that you know you
had a companion crossing state lines. The logic in the
minds of white supremacists and any jury white jury in America,
black people be can sit down, jurys was no white
woman would in there right by want to be with you,
So therefore she must be an immoral actor, and we
(07:57):
can get you for that. So Jack Johnson is charged,
he's found guilty, and he leaves the country right because
he's going to be arrested and thrown in jail for
several years during the height of his boxing prowess.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
As Professor Jeffries points out, the Man Act and laws
like it, they were all part of a bigger plan
to stop black men with power and sway black men
like Jack Johnson, black men like Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
How state actors defined powerful really had to do less
with sort of intellectual ability, but those who develop a
mass following, right, and especially it's one thing if you
got negroes following you. It's another thing if you've got
negroes and white people following you. Because that has always
been that sort of red line that white power has
(08:46):
always worried about. That has always been the great fear.
And so what we see with Daddy Grace in saying
I'm only going to speak to the integrated crowds is
he's not abiding by the lines demarcation that had been
established to keep black people and white people apart. And
even if it's just a handful of people who are
(09:08):
going to be connected or going to come over. That
poses a real threat.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
When a black man was unafraid to stand up for
what he believes in and seemed fearless in the face
of white authority, that man was often considered dangerous, especially
if that man could command a crowd. Marcus Garvey was
another such man. Like Daddy Grace, he too was an immigrant.
(09:35):
Like Daddy Grace, he was also a captivating figure. He
spoke out for his people, not only for black people
in America, but for the liberation of black people around
the world. But by doing this, Garvey became a target.
In fact, he marks the beginning of the rise of j.
Edgar Hoover, the future director of the FBI. At the time, though,
(10:00):
Hoover was still working his way up through the Justice
Department and he was tasked with taking down Marcus Garvey.
Hoover understood one important thing about Marcus Garvey and men
like him. They got their power from the people. So
the only way to destroy that power was to ruin
(10:20):
those men in the eyes of their people using allegations, rumors,
and printed lies. So Hoover did something he otherwise would
have never done. He hired the Bureau of Investigation's first
full time black agent, in order to infiltrate Garvey's social
justice movement. He knew the most effective way to attack
(10:44):
Garvy was from the inside.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It worked.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Garvey was soon charged and convicted of mail fraud. After
he served prison time, he was deported. Using black secret
agents became a favorite tactic of the government as they
tried to destabilize other black led efforts like the Civil
Rights movement and the Black Panther Party for Self Defense
(11:08):
or leaders like Noble ju Ali, Elijah Muhammad, and Malcolm X,
and also Daddy Grace. In nineteen forty one, with World
War II raging in Europe, the FBI received a tip
from an informant that Daddy Grace was a communist and
that he was trying to incite his followers to riot
(11:29):
against white people, So they sent agents to church services
to see if they could pin anything on him. It's
kind of ironic if you think about it, because of
all the claims against him, being a communist was perhaps
the most far fetched. Daddy Grace had fully embraced capitalism
(11:50):
and understood the power of money in America. It was
so clear that even the FBI agreed after a few
months they dropped the investigation, but that doesn't mean that
they were happy about it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think it's important that we understand that these things
are not accidental. There is a pattern of targeting influential
African Americans who have this large following.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Jaye Goo Hoover.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
He's motivated by this idea, and he writes about this
in the late nineteen sixties in a memo internal memo
designed to explain America's counterintelligence program, which was those efforts
designed to undermine civil rights a black power activist, he writes,
our principal objective is to prevent the rise of a
black messiah. This is what he had always been worried about, right,
(12:44):
is the rise of a black messiah, whether we're talking
about Marcus Garvey or Jack Johnson or Stokely Carmichael or
Martin Luther King or Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's headed the Nation of Islam for
the past forty years, has also been a target of
the FBI. So he is more than aware of how
rumors were used to discredit powerful black men, including in
Daddy Grace's earra As he told an audience in nineteen
eighty three, there came.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Strong voices of liberation Marcus Garve, Nobo true Ali, And
in that same hearing you get a man like father
Devine right.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Daddy Grapes.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And prophet Joke. Now you may say, oh, look, don't
tell me about them Charlatans, Hold on, We're not gonna
deal with what people were or are by characterization. I
want us to deal with what they contributed to our
being where we are. They taught us something if we
(13:56):
open our eyes and look.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Did have a lot to teach, and he did a
lot for his congregation.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
But he was.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Also a man with flaws like everyone, and in some
instances some of the rumors did have merits. So even
as Daddy Grace fought the fear mongering of Hoover, the government,
and the press, there were black people voice and criticisms
worth listening to. For one, black women had to pay
(14:27):
for his assent and satisfaction. Throughout his time as the
head of the church, there were rumors of affairs and
illegitimate children, and there were other troubling accusations, ones that
led to a manack trial of his own and ones
that nearly caused his downfall. In nineteen thirty four, Daddy
(14:54):
Grace was tried in a New York City court for
allegedly violating the man. The government claimed that in nineteen
thirty two, during a car ride from Brooklyn to Philadelphia,
he had tried to rape a house of Prayer member
Minnie Lee Campbell, then around eighteen or nineteen years old,
(15:15):
and that later, while at his house in Washington, d c.
The same one I walked by and marveled at, he
had convinced Minnie Lee to sleep with him. She later
had a son, who she named Charles, after the man
she said was his father. Even though what happened to
Minnie Lee was at the center of the case, Minnie
(15:36):
Lee's well being didn't seem to be of much concern
to anyone, including the press. It was more about Daddy Grace.
Newspapers covered what he wore, what he said, how he
and his followers, many of who were in attendance at
the trial behaved. Daddy Grace's lawyer did focus on Minni Lee,
(15:59):
but mostly to try to prove that she was promiscuous,
meaning that her son Charles well his father could have
been anyone, and the prosecutor for the government seemed only
mildly interested in what Daddy Grace's intentions with Minny Lee were. Instead,
he was more fixed on discrediting the United House of Prayer.
(16:19):
He questioned Bishop Grace about the origins of his church,
his religious training, and what he actually did in his
role as a preacher. Reading between the lines of this
not so subtle racism, the question seems to be how
could a man who looks like this have so much power?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
But did he do it?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Daddy Grace was found guilty by a jury of twelve
white men and sentenced to a year and a day
in prison. A week after the trial, Daddy Grace was
preaching in Newport News, Virginia. Defiant in his conviction and
proclaiming his innocence. He appealed to the crowd, saying, only
(17:05):
the court of the Almighty is the one who can
pass judgment. Conviction is not guilt. Christ was convicted, but
was he guilty? He also appealed legally, and later that
year the case was overturned. It wasn't an absolution of guilt.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
The appeal was.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
On a technicality about what had happened where. If the
alleged crime had happened in DC, then the new York
Court didn't have jurisdiction, but for Daddy Grace it was
good enough. He was once again an innocent man, though
he didn't address the trial explicitly. Again, the entire experience
(17:47):
and the support he got from his congregation must have
stayed with him. You hear it in this sermon which
was recorded near the end of his life.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Remember what I say, if we together will stay together,
fuse together, we will sam or divide it we will fall.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Honestly, I really wrestled with how to tell this part
of Daddy Grace's story. He lived such a monumental life
and I want to make sure that the legacy he
built through his church isn't forgotten. But I also have
a lot of hesitation uplifting someone who could be a
sexual predator, and knowing how my grandfather, a man so
(18:37):
well respected in the Cape Verdian community, was against Daddy Grace.
That also gave me pause. Was my Papa right? I mean,
Daddy Grace did try to get my nana, who was
just a teenager, to go off on the road with him.
The toughest part has been that so much is still unknown,
and Daddy Grace and most people who knew him personally,
(19:01):
aren't around to fill in the blanks, So I've just
tried to look at.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
The facts that exist.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
On the one hand, you have a documented pattern of
the government using the Man Act to try to take
down powerful black men, men they felt disrupted their social order.
On the other hand, basically everyone from the prosecution, the defense,
Daddy Grace himself seemed to have very little consideration for
(19:28):
Minnie Lee as a person in nineteen thirty four. There's
no believe women narrative here, especially if it's a black woman.
And from my contemporary perspective, it's hard not to see
the power dynamic between Minnie Lee, a young parishioner, and
Daddy Grace, the much older, much wealthier leader of her church.
(19:51):
But still I want to be fair to Daddy Grace,
to measure him against the standards of his own time.
Men in the nineteen thirties were rightly or wrongly, given
a certain amount of latitude in their behavior towards women
and the Man Act. It does have racist origins.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
So, as I.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Often do when I find myself needing to make sense
of contradictions, I sat down again with Darryl Stewart, a
producer on the show.
Speaker 7 (20:22):
Sweet Daddy, Grace did a lot of good for his people.
We cannot argue that. We know that, but he also
had a lot going on. Is it possible for a
person to have both light and dark, to do both
some great.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Things, and to also have some areas.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
That, as my third grade teacher would say, need to
improve me. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I believe the answer to that question is yes. I
think that it is possible to be both a man
of faith or a woman of faith and also be
a person that is that has faults and flaws.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
And is with sin.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
We are here on this earth living a human experience,
and part of that experience is making mistakes, and I
think that there's not a person that doesn't have those things.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I think that it doesn't cancel.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Out the good that you may have done, or the
leadership that you may have.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Do government leaders, cultural leaders, spiritual leaders have a different
responsibility because of their title, because of their position in
the world. Or are we all offered or should we
all be offered that same grace?
Speaker 8 (21:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
So here's the plan where it's grace. I do believe
that everybody should have a certain amount of grace afforded
to them for whatever transgressions.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
They may have.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
However, I do think that when you're in a position
of leadership, that there's a certain amount of responsibility that's
been placed upon you. And I think that you are
going to be held to a different standard because you're
in a position of leadership. People are looking up to you.
Can you make mistakes, yes, Can you be forgiven for
those mistakes?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (22:18):
Daddy Grace was sentenced to prison for a year and
a day after he was found guilty on a charge
of violating the Man Act. So Daddy Grace got involved
in effect. And I want to say, for me, as
a lover of history and as a black man myself,
(22:39):
I understand that sometimes these webs can be complicated because
there's so many different lenses by which to look at this, right,
But I'm curious to know what do you think this
was all about? What do you think this was really about?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So Okay, initial sort of reaction to this, and especially
after my conversation with doctor Jeffries and having a bit
more understanding about why the Man Act was created in
the first place, which of course gives me a lot
of pause, But in thinking specifically about Daddy Grace in
this case, it's it's confusing to me. Now, is it
(23:19):
possible that they had a consensual sexual interaction? I think
it is possible. Daddy Grace was a man. I mean,
this is a man who had a lot of power,
who and resources and could do pretty much whatever he wanted.
So did he maybe find this woman attractive and did
he maybe say, hey, you know, I'll give you a job,
(23:40):
and you know, hey, let's let's have a good time tonight.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think it's curious that he did provide her with
some measure of financial support.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
That she did and she did accept it.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So I think it's quite possible that something did happen
between them. And I also think that it's quite possible that,
especially in that time, that that could have brought down
Daddy Grace's entire mission because people would have slandered him.
And I think there were way too many things at
(24:17):
stake for something like this to bring down the whole
entire church.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
There's too many hounds to be fed.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
I'm so glad that you mentioned public ridicule. We know
that being a preacher in the black community comes with
a certain amount of public ridicule, the men envy you
because of the perceived power authority and anointing the women's
fan girl after you're adorning you with words of affirmation
(24:46):
and gifts of hospitality, their loyalty and service. But in
some ways that also makes the leader vulnerable. Do you
think that black creatures and other religious leaders were maybe
jealous of Daddy Grace and or white preachers and leaders
and would have benefited them to participate in the assassination
(25:11):
of his character.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Actually, I think it's really difficult to reach that level
of success and not have people try to take you
down and be jealous. But not just jealous, because to me,
jealousy says you have something that I want, but I
can get it if I work hard enough. But envy
is something entirely different. Envy says you have something that
(25:34):
I can never have. And I think a lot of
people were envious of Daddy Grace because they saw that
he was able to not only it's not just about
the wealth that he amassed, it's the amount of loyalty
and you know, belief in him that he had, and
that is something that money can't buy. Money can't buy loyalty.
(25:56):
Money can't buy followers. And I think what was probably
most dangerous about Daddy Grace was the amount of power
that he exerted over his congregation. And so I wouldn't
think that it would be above the government if they
were trying to find a way to bring him down,
to tap into vulnerable people in his congregation that were
(26:16):
close to him, or were even on the periphery, to
try to find ways to take him down. It could
be either or it just depends on what lens you
look at it. Daddy Grace, like many of us, was
a complex man, and not everything he did or said
(26:37):
can be cleanly explained. That's added to some of the
mystery and intrigue around him.
Speaker 8 (26:44):
I think there are parts of him we don't understand,
So for that reason people maybe want to keep them
at arm's length. They're not sure how much of his
work should be celebrated, or how much there might be
to be uncovered about something bad he did or something
we won't like. But it revolves around these things of
money and flamboyance and was he exploiting people? Those are
(27:06):
all still questions that kind of linger.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Doctor Marie Dollam is a professor of American religion and
Associate dean at the University of Oklahoma. She's the author
of the book Daddy Grace, a Celebrity Preacher and His
House of Prayer, and she is very familiar with the
controversies surrounding him.
Speaker 8 (27:28):
I don't think he was trying to exploit people in
the sense that some people have suggested he was. I
tend to think he was someone who was sincere in
what he was doing. That he couldn't spend forty years
as a religious leader just pulling the wool over people's eyes.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
To the contrary, doctor Dalam sees how the way Daddy
Grace behaved and stilled the sense of pride and belonging
to his congregation.
Speaker 8 (27:59):
The way he carried himself, the way he had people
wait on him. He had a hierarchy going that was
palpable in the church, and I think there was something
special about that. People could feel like they were part
of this really important church. They owned lots of property,
(28:21):
there was lots of glamour attached to that, but he
had a status that was above them right, and there
was a kind of buy in that was necessary to
make that happen.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
But that doesn't mean that She also doesn't struggle with
how to reconcile some of the contradictions around him.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
I hate to think ill of him because I feel
protective of Daddy Grace. I feel like so many people
have tried to tear him down. I don't want to
be one more person who's doing that. But in honesty,
I think there's probably some truth in a lot of
those accusations. Perhaps not to the extent and the extent
(29:00):
dreams that people were saying, but you know, I wouldn't
be surprised if some of them were somewhat true. For example,
the Man Act violation where he supposedly raped his female
companion in the car as they were traveling. Did he
do that? I don't know, But I do know that
(29:21):
when you read the transcript of the trial, it's very
clear that all of the witnesses on his side were
heavily prepared. They say the exact same thing, and it's
too close for coincidence. So there's something in there that
he didn't want people to know. What did he not
want people to know?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You know, that's a history.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And then there was the Irs. The Irs went after
Daddy Grace repeatedly for not filing taxes for failing to
report income for not being taxes on the large offerings
given to the church by its parishioners. He fought those
charges and he usually won, but it was constant tax fraud.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
Yeah, probably was that deliberate or was that just he
wasn't fully aware of how one needs to manage a
multimillion dollar church. That's entirely possible, right, How would he
have learned how to manage finances in the legal way?
I don't know that he would have, So, Yeah, I
think there's potential truth in all of that, but I
(30:25):
don't think that's really what we need to focus on,
because who among us doesn't have a dark secret or too? Right,
we just don't happen to be as famous.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
For many people in my family, especially the older generations,
these secrets were enough to rule Daddy Grace out, to
consider him a fraud, a crook, a con man, and
to completely deny any relation. And though I don't agree
with them, I understand where they're coming from. As black immigrants,
they were told by white society that they weren't worth
(30:57):
very much. Their standing in America was fragile enough that
they didn't want to do anything to disrupt it. Including
associating with someone like Daddy Grace, who was considered so
as my Aunt Judy said out there.
Speaker 9 (31:14):
What I have heard about Bishop Grace and all that
he has brought to his people is something that we
all can learn from. How about owning your own stuff,
how about not having no date? Not just about his
long nails and how people would what's.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
The matter with Daddy?
Speaker 9 (31:31):
He's all right. He taught and set the foundation for
his people to be dead free all their own property.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Reverend Louise Scott Rowntree is a council member at Large
for the City of Newark, New Jersey. Her mother, Madame
Louise Scott, was thought to be the city's first black
female millionaire. A self made woman, she built her fortune
by opening a salon selling beauty products and later opening
(32:00):
up multiple shops and even a beauty school. Reverend Roundtree
is very familiar with Daddy Grace and everything he accomplished,
because in some ways you could say that there are
parallels between the lives of Daddy Grace and her own mother.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
You know, my mother had.
Speaker 9 (32:19):
To work, so was she She really carried God with
her being an African American during those times when you
know racism.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Was high, and you had to have that.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
Because people say something to you that might make you
either hurt them or you get hurt by your response.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
In nineteen fifty eight, Madame Louise Scott purchased a twenty
six room mansion in the heart of Newark. It had
been built in the eighteen eighties by a local beer baron,
Gottfried Krueger. The Krueger Mansion was now the Krueger Scott Mansion.
Many people couldn't believe a black woman could own such
(32:58):
an extravagant building, but for Reverend Rowntree, who grew up there,
it was just a home.
Speaker 9 (33:04):
To be honest with you, I didn't know have any
idea who my mother was. I didn't have any idea
of where I lived. It was just all my life.
It was like I didn't realize the greatness of any
of this.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And besides her entrepreneurial skills, Reverend Rowntree also admired her
mother's commitment to faith. It's what drives her too.
Speaker 9 (33:26):
That will overseeing inter faith alliance where I tell people
that it's not about their religion, it's about humanity. So
we're gonna love each other. We're gonna play together. And
I got that from my mother. My mother I never
saw treat anybody different like. She never put any airs
on when she gotten certain. She was so busy being busy.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Daddy Grace was also a busy man, busy with his church,
the members, and all of his enterprises. But here's the thing.
With all his time spent on the house of prayer,
Daddy Grace's relationships with much of his own family were complicated.
His two marriages ended in divorce, and in nineteen forty seven,
(34:06):
his son Norman was tragically killed in a car accident
while on his way to meet Daddy.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Grace in Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
The aftermath of his death strained his relationship with Norman's sister,
his daughter Irene. They didn't seem to talk much after that,
and his son Marcellino from his second marriage, was diagnosed
with schizophrenia and had problems with the law. Daddy Grace
supported him financially for a while, but eventually seemed to
(34:35):
distance himself from him. Reverend Rowntree understands how being a
leader and being in service to other people can take
away from your own personal life.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
Family gets really pushed to the side a lot because
of the sacrifices based on what you've committed to, what
position you're in. So in my case, there's a lot
of things bad I look back on as as I
could have done different while working in government, being a
parent becomes a challenge during things, a family becomes a challenge.
(35:09):
Trying to make time for you becomes a challenge if
you're committed to the work.
Speaker 9 (35:15):
If you're not committed, then nothing's challenge.
Speaker 8 (35:18):
You just do.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
But if you're committed, there can be multiple challenges based.
Speaker 9 (35:23):
On what you have going on in your life.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Daddy Grace did have family.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
He was close to.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Family who were involved in the church, like his sisters
Louise and Sylvia, who frequently accompanied him on the road,
and many nieces and nephews as well, And of course
he was constantly surrounded by church elders, Grace soldiers, and
Grace maids. But in many ways he was alone. Doctor
(35:52):
Marie Dollom also wondered about Daddy Grace's personal relationships.
Speaker 8 (36:00):
He seemed to have a kind of on again, off
again thing with the first wife, and then the second
one was came and went fairly quickly. They just didn't
quite add up to me, especially For such a famous guy,
you think he'd want someone by his side, who's the
capable companion, who can be the equivalent female in the church.
(36:25):
It was surprising that he never found someone like that
to be there with him.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
As a self professed workaholic, I kind of took that
as I wonder if that's what it was like he
was married to the church that took precedence over everything.
It seems like his work was the thing he was
most faithful to his entire life, and maybe he didn't
want to share that with anybody.
Speaker 8 (36:50):
You know what, That's a really beautiful way to put it,
and you may be totally right on that. Yeah, that
was his loyalty right there.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Daddy Grace was clearly a man on a mission. Although
there are differing opinions about what that mission was, no
one can doubt that what he accomplished in his lifetime
was momentous, whether you agree with his methods or not.
For him, it was about saving souls and making sure
that his people were prosperous and living within the kingdom
(37:23):
that he built here on earth. And to do this
as an African immigrant, as a black man in America,
meant he paid the price. There is no doubt that
he benefited from the spoils of his work, but constant
surveillance by government entities around his church and his businesses, jealousy,
(37:43):
mistrust by his fellow Cape Verdians, contentious relationships, and family
fractures were the sacrifices that he made to build his
vision and fulfill the calling that brought him to America.
My own family worked hard to distance themselves from Daddy Grace,
even though there were multiple ties and connections. The feeling
(38:06):
in my gut has driven me to find the truth
in spite of what people might think or feel. I've
spent years working on this show, traveled across the Atlantic
several times, and poured over documents trying to discover the truth.
Is Daddy Grace really my family? And will I ever
figure this out? That's next time in the final episode
(38:29):
of Sweet Daddy Grace. Sweet Daddy Grace is a production
of iHeart Podcasts and Force, a media group. This show
is hosted by Me Marcy de Pina. It's written and
produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our story editors are
Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing sound design
(38:54):
and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing by Matt Russell,
show cover art by Viviana Salgado of Studio Creative Group.
Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive producers are Marcy
Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore,
(39:17):
Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu Phillip of iHeartMedia, and
all of my family members who talk to me for
this show, my ancestors, the United House of Prayer for
All People, and the countless number of people who shared
their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace with me. Thanks also
(39:38):
to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor Danielle brun Sigler, whose
academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace has been incredibly helpful.
And finally, I want to thank Bishop Grace himself for
choosing me to tell his story. For more information on
Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out the website Sweet Daddy
(39:58):
Grace and follow me at Marci Dapina on all social
platforms
It's July fourth, nineteen ten Reno, Nevada. More than sixteen
thousand fans pack into a wooden arena, eyes fixed on
the boxing match below them. Everyone is focused on the
two men in the ring. They've been at it for
nearly an hour, and cracks, at least in one of
(00:29):
them are starting to show. In one corner is Jack Johnson,
the raining heavyweight champion of the world and the first
black man to ever hold that title. In the other
corner is Jim Jeffries, a two hundred and twenty pounds
former champion who'd come out of retirement strictly for this
(00:51):
to take that title away. Jeffries has been nicknamed the
Great White Hope, and this match, it's billed as the
fight of the century. The crowd, which is almost all white,
is at full throated volume and clearly in support of Jeffries,
as are the bookies. No one seemed to consider that
(01:13):
a young black man at the height of his abilities
and strength, the best in the world, could beat a
man who had to lose fifty pounds to get in
shape in time for the match. No one, of course,
except for Jack Johnson himself. He is calm, confident, He
is ready. Nothing Jeffries does bases him. He is just
(01:37):
waiting for the right moment. And then it comes. The
fifteenth round. Jack Johnson throws a flurry of punches. They
catch Jeffries and send him to the match. It's the
first time Jeffreys has ever been knocked down in his
entire career. The crowd is shocked. They shout at the
(01:59):
Great White Hope to get back up. He manages to
stumble to his feet, but Johnson hits Jeffreys again. The
blow knocks Jeffrey's back and he falls out of the ring.
A fan rushes to him pushes him up, but Jack
Johnson is ready. He charges and lands another hard right.
(02:21):
Jeffrey stumbles for the third time and goes down. The
match is called before Johnson can deliver a knockout, saving
the Great White Hope from the ultimate embarrassment. Jack Johnson,
a black man, has won the fight of the century
in a time when white America can barely recognize the
(02:42):
humanity of black people. He was unequivocally the best in
the world. He was also rich. He earned over sixty
five thousand dollars from the fight, more than two million
dollars today and white America, it wasn't happy. In the
hours that followed the fight, millions of white Americans seethed.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
They took to the.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Streets, They rioted, They set buildings ablaze, and terrorized black
neighborhoods across the country in payback for Jack Johnson's victory
in the ring. Jack Johnson won the Fight of the
Century in nineteen ten. Daddy Grace started his church nine
years later in nineteen nineteen, and when he too became
(03:32):
famous and amazingly wealthy, he also triggered much of that
same racist anger that Johnson did. He may not have
literally beaten up white men to get his wealth and power,
but to many it felt much the same. When a
black man, especially one in the first half of the
(03:53):
twentieth century, stands proudly on the world stage and declares
himself a man equal to all others, and that same
man is also rich and powerful, that means he is
an advertisement for black self worth and a direct attack
on white supremacy. So whether he is a professional boxer
(04:17):
or a preacher, that black man will need to be
put in his place, if not by riots, then by
the power of the state. I'm Marcy de Pina and
from iHeart Podcasts Enforce the media group. This is Sweet
Daddy Grace. This is a show about Daddy Grace, but
(05:28):
it's important to remember that he was also part of
a time and was impacted by others in the culture.
Jack Johnson was a powerful force in the early nineteen hundreds,
but it's more than boxing. He upset the social contract
of America. He was a black man who believed his
success entitled him to whatever pleasures he could afford for him.
(05:53):
This meant white women American culture was not ready for
Jack Johnson. He was unapologetically black at a time when
just being black at the wrong place and time could
get you murdered. Jack Johnson was such a domineering presence
in the culture.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He changed how.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Americans viewed not just him, but all successful black men,
including Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So Jack Johnson is another one of these you know,
flamboyant African American men, right, I mean, coming out of Galveston, Texas,
the Galveston Giant the first decade of nineteen hundreds, wins
the heavyweight championship of the world. And he wasn't quiet, right,
I Mean, he was like one, I'm not only gonna
whoop up on white boys, right, but I'm gonna date
(06:40):
your women rightly? Oh like Jack, what do you do
with my man?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's doctor Hassan Jeffries again. He teaches and studies the
civil rights and Black power movements at the Ohio State University.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So Jack Johnson becomes a target. And so because he
was that flamboyancy not only in the ring but also
saying I'm going to date your women too, they literally
create a law that says it's illegal to transport a
woman from one state to another cross state lines federal
law for the purpose of prostitution.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
That law, it was called the Man Act. It was
passed in nineteen ten. It forbade the transportation of quote,
any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery,
or for any other immoral purpose. It was intentionally broad,
which is why it was used against Jack Johnson.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
If you could just be shown that you know you
had a companion crossing state lines. The logic in the
minds of white supremacists and any jury white jury in America,
black people be can sit down, jurys was no white
woman would in there right by want to be with you,
So therefore she must be an immoral actor, and we
(07:57):
can get you for that. So Jack Johnson is charged,
he's found guilty, and he leaves the country right because
he's going to be arrested and thrown in jail for
several years during the height of his boxing prowess.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
As Professor Jeffries points out, the Man Act and laws
like it, they were all part of a bigger plan
to stop black men with power and sway black men
like Jack Johnson, black men like Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
How state actors defined powerful really had to do less
with sort of intellectual ability, but those who develop a
mass following, right, and especially it's one thing if you
got negroes following you. It's another thing if you've got
negroes and white people following you. Because that has always
been that sort of red line that white power has
(08:46):
always worried about. That has always been the great fear.
And so what we see with Daddy Grace in saying
I'm only going to speak to the integrated crowds is
he's not abiding by the lines demarcation that had been
established to keep black people and white people apart. And
even if it's just a handful of people who are
(09:08):
going to be connected or going to come over. That
poses a real threat.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
When a black man was unafraid to stand up for
what he believes in and seemed fearless in the face
of white authority, that man was often considered dangerous, especially
if that man could command a crowd. Marcus Garvey was
another such man. Like Daddy Grace, he too was an immigrant.
(09:35):
Like Daddy Grace, he was also a captivating figure. He
spoke out for his people, not only for black people
in America, but for the liberation of black people around
the world. But by doing this, Garvey became a target.
In fact, he marks the beginning of the rise of j.
Edgar Hoover, the future director of the FBI. At the time, though,
(10:00):
Hoover was still working his way up through the Justice
Department and he was tasked with taking down Marcus Garvey.
Hoover understood one important thing about Marcus Garvey and men
like him. They got their power from the people. So
the only way to destroy that power was to ruin
(10:20):
those men in the eyes of their people using allegations, rumors,
and printed lies. So Hoover did something he otherwise would
have never done. He hired the Bureau of Investigation's first
full time black agent, in order to infiltrate Garvey's social
justice movement. He knew the most effective way to attack
(10:44):
Garvy was from the inside.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It worked.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Garvey was soon charged and convicted of mail fraud. After
he served prison time, he was deported. Using black secret
agents became a favorite tactic of the government as they
tried to destabilize other black led efforts like the Civil
Rights movement and the Black Panther Party for Self Defense
(11:08):
or leaders like Noble ju Ali, Elijah Muhammad, and Malcolm X,
and also Daddy Grace. In nineteen forty one, with World
War II raging in Europe, the FBI received a tip
from an informant that Daddy Grace was a communist and
that he was trying to incite his followers to riot
(11:29):
against white people, So they sent agents to church services
to see if they could pin anything on him. It's
kind of ironic if you think about it, because of
all the claims against him, being a communist was perhaps
the most far fetched. Daddy Grace had fully embraced capitalism
(11:50):
and understood the power of money in America. It was
so clear that even the FBI agreed after a few
months they dropped the investigation, but that doesn't mean that
they were happy about it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think it's important that we understand that these things
are not accidental. There is a pattern of targeting influential
African Americans who have this large following.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Jaye Goo Hoover.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
He's motivated by this idea, and he writes about this
in the late nineteen sixties in a memo internal memo
designed to explain America's counterintelligence program, which was those efforts
designed to undermine civil rights a black power activist, he writes,
our principal objective is to prevent the rise of a
black messiah. This is what he had always been worried about, right,
(12:44):
is the rise of a black messiah, whether we're talking
about Marcus Garvey or Jack Johnson or Stokely Carmichael or
Martin Luther King or Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's headed the Nation of Islam for
the past forty years, has also been a target of
the FBI. So he is more than aware of how
rumors were used to discredit powerful black men, including in
Daddy Grace's earra As he told an audience in nineteen
eighty three, there came.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Strong voices of liberation Marcus Garve, Nobo true Ali, And
in that same hearing you get a man like father
Devine right.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Daddy Grapes.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And prophet Joke. Now you may say, oh, look, don't
tell me about them Charlatans, Hold on, We're not gonna
deal with what people were or are by characterization. I
want us to deal with what they contributed to our
being where we are. They taught us something if we
(13:56):
open our eyes and look.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Did have a lot to teach, and he did a
lot for his congregation.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
But he was.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Also a man with flaws like everyone, and in some
instances some of the rumors did have merits. So even
as Daddy Grace fought the fear mongering of Hoover, the government,
and the press, there were black people voice and criticisms
worth listening to. For one, black women had to pay
(14:27):
for his assent and satisfaction. Throughout his time as the
head of the church, there were rumors of affairs and
illegitimate children, and there were other troubling accusations, ones that
led to a manack trial of his own and ones
that nearly caused his downfall. In nineteen thirty four, Daddy
(14:54):
Grace was tried in a New York City court for
allegedly violating the man. The government claimed that in nineteen
thirty two, during a car ride from Brooklyn to Philadelphia,
he had tried to rape a house of Prayer member
Minnie Lee Campbell, then around eighteen or nineteen years old,
(15:15):
and that later, while at his house in Washington, d c.
The same one I walked by and marveled at, he
had convinced Minnie Lee to sleep with him. She later
had a son, who she named Charles, after the man
she said was his father. Even though what happened to
Minnie Lee was at the center of the case, Minnie
(15:36):
Lee's well being didn't seem to be of much concern
to anyone, including the press. It was more about Daddy Grace.
Newspapers covered what he wore, what he said, how he
and his followers, many of who were in attendance at
the trial behaved. Daddy Grace's lawyer did focus on Minni Lee,
(15:59):
but mostly to try to prove that she was promiscuous,
meaning that her son Charles well his father could have
been anyone, and the prosecutor for the government seemed only
mildly interested in what Daddy Grace's intentions with Minny Lee were. Instead,
he was more fixed on discrediting the United House of Prayer.
(16:19):
He questioned Bishop Grace about the origins of his church,
his religious training, and what he actually did in his
role as a preacher. Reading between the lines of this
not so subtle racism, the question seems to be how
could a man who looks like this have so much power?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
But did he do it?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Daddy Grace was found guilty by a jury of twelve
white men and sentenced to a year and a day
in prison. A week after the trial, Daddy Grace was
preaching in Newport News, Virginia. Defiant in his conviction and
proclaiming his innocence. He appealed to the crowd, saying, only
(17:05):
the court of the Almighty is the one who can
pass judgment. Conviction is not guilt. Christ was convicted, but
was he guilty? He also appealed legally, and later that
year the case was overturned. It wasn't an absolution of guilt.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
The appeal was.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
On a technicality about what had happened where. If the
alleged crime had happened in DC, then the new York
Court didn't have jurisdiction, but for Daddy Grace it was
good enough. He was once again an innocent man, though
he didn't address the trial explicitly. Again, the entire experience
(17:47):
and the support he got from his congregation must have
stayed with him. You hear it in this sermon which
was recorded near the end of his life.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Remember what I say, if we together will stay together,
fuse together, we will sam or divide it we will fall.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Honestly, I really wrestled with how to tell this part
of Daddy Grace's story. He lived such a monumental life
and I want to make sure that the legacy he
built through his church isn't forgotten. But I also have
a lot of hesitation uplifting someone who could be a
sexual predator, and knowing how my grandfather, a man so
(18:37):
well respected in the Cape Verdian community, was against Daddy Grace.
That also gave me pause. Was my Papa right? I mean,
Daddy Grace did try to get my nana, who was
just a teenager, to go off on the road with him.
The toughest part has been that so much is still unknown,
and Daddy Grace and most people who knew him personally,
(19:01):
aren't around to fill in the blanks, So I've just
tried to look at.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
The facts that exist.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
On the one hand, you have a documented pattern of
the government using the Man Act to try to take
down powerful black men, men they felt disrupted their social order.
On the other hand, basically everyone from the prosecution, the defense,
Daddy Grace himself seemed to have very little consideration for
(19:28):
Minnie Lee as a person in nineteen thirty four. There's
no believe women narrative here, especially if it's a black woman.
And from my contemporary perspective, it's hard not to see
the power dynamic between Minnie Lee, a young parishioner, and
Daddy Grace, the much older, much wealthier leader of her church.
(19:51):
But still I want to be fair to Daddy Grace,
to measure him against the standards of his own time.
Men in the nineteen thirties were rightly or wrongly, given
a certain amount of latitude in their behavior towards women
and the Man Act. It does have racist origins.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
So, as I.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Often do when I find myself needing to make sense
of contradictions, I sat down again with Darryl Stewart, a
producer on the show.
Speaker 7 (20:22):
Sweet Daddy, Grace did a lot of good for his people.
We cannot argue that. We know that, but he also
had a lot going on. Is it possible for a
person to have both light and dark, to do both
some great.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Things, and to also have some areas.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
That, as my third grade teacher would say, need to
improve me. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I believe the answer to that question is yes. I
think that it is possible to be both a man
of faith or a woman of faith and also be
a person that is that has faults and flaws.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
And is with sin.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
We are here on this earth living a human experience,
and part of that experience is making mistakes, and I
think that there's not a person that doesn't have those things.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I think that it doesn't cancel.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Out the good that you may have done, or the
leadership that you may have.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Do government leaders, cultural leaders, spiritual leaders have a different
responsibility because of their title, because of their position in
the world. Or are we all offered or should we
all be offered that same grace?
Speaker 8 (21:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
So here's the plan where it's grace. I do believe
that everybody should have a certain amount of grace afforded
to them for whatever transgressions.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
They may have.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
However, I do think that when you're in a position
of leadership, that there's a certain amount of responsibility that's
been placed upon you. And I think that you are
going to be held to a different standard because you're
in a position of leadership. People are looking up to you.
Can you make mistakes, yes, Can you be forgiven for
those mistakes?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (22:18):
Daddy Grace was sentenced to prison for a year and
a day after he was found guilty on a charge
of violating the Man Act. So Daddy Grace got involved
in effect. And I want to say, for me, as
a lover of history and as a black man myself,
(22:39):
I understand that sometimes these webs can be complicated because
there's so many different lenses by which to look at this, right,
But I'm curious to know what do you think this
was all about? What do you think this was really about?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So Okay, initial sort of reaction to this, and especially
after my conversation with doctor Jeffries and having a bit
more understanding about why the Man Act was created in
the first place, which of course gives me a lot
of pause, But in thinking specifically about Daddy Grace in
this case, it's it's confusing to me. Now, is it
(23:19):
possible that they had a consensual sexual interaction? I think
it is possible. Daddy Grace was a man. I mean,
this is a man who had a lot of power,
who and resources and could do pretty much whatever he wanted.
So did he maybe find this woman attractive and did
he maybe say, hey, you know, I'll give you a job,
(23:40):
and you know, hey, let's let's have a good time tonight.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think it's curious that he did provide her with
some measure of financial support.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
That she did and she did accept it.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So I think it's quite possible that something did happen
between them. And I also think that it's quite possible that,
especially in that time, that that could have brought down
Daddy Grace's entire mission because people would have slandered him.
And I think there were way too many things at
(24:17):
stake for something like this to bring down the whole
entire church.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
There's too many hounds to be fed.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
I'm so glad that you mentioned public ridicule. We know
that being a preacher in the black community comes with
a certain amount of public ridicule, the men envy you
because of the perceived power authority and anointing the women's
fan girl after you're adorning you with words of affirmation
(24:46):
and gifts of hospitality, their loyalty and service. But in
some ways that also makes the leader vulnerable. Do you
think that black creatures and other religious leaders were maybe
jealous of Daddy Grace and or white preachers and leaders
and would have benefited them to participate in the assassination
(25:11):
of his character.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Actually, I think it's really difficult to reach that level
of success and not have people try to take you
down and be jealous. But not just jealous, because to me,
jealousy says you have something that I want, but I
can get it if I work hard enough. But envy
is something entirely different. Envy says you have something that
(25:34):
I can never have. And I think a lot of
people were envious of Daddy Grace because they saw that
he was able to not only it's not just about
the wealth that he amassed, it's the amount of loyalty
and you know, belief in him that he had, and
that is something that money can't buy. Money can't buy loyalty.
(25:56):
Money can't buy followers. And I think what was probably
most dangerous about Daddy Grace was the amount of power
that he exerted over his congregation. And so I wouldn't
think that it would be above the government if they
were trying to find a way to bring him down,
to tap into vulnerable people in his congregation that were
(26:16):
close to him, or were even on the periphery, to
try to find ways to take him down. It could
be either or it just depends on what lens you
look at it. Daddy Grace, like many of us, was
a complex man, and not everything he did or said
(26:37):
can be cleanly explained. That's added to some of the
mystery and intrigue around him.
Speaker 8 (26:44):
I think there are parts of him we don't understand,
So for that reason people maybe want to keep them
at arm's length. They're not sure how much of his
work should be celebrated, or how much there might be
to be uncovered about something bad he did or something
we won't like. But it revolves around these things of
money and flamboyance and was he exploiting people? Those are
(27:06):
all still questions that kind of linger.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Doctor Marie Dollam is a professor of American religion and
Associate dean at the University of Oklahoma. She's the author
of the book Daddy Grace, a Celebrity Preacher and His
House of Prayer, and she is very familiar with the
controversies surrounding him.
Speaker 8 (27:28):
I don't think he was trying to exploit people in
the sense that some people have suggested he was. I
tend to think he was someone who was sincere in
what he was doing. That he couldn't spend forty years
as a religious leader just pulling the wool over people's eyes.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
To the contrary, doctor Dalam sees how the way Daddy
Grace behaved and stilled the sense of pride and belonging
to his congregation.
Speaker 8 (27:59):
The way he carried himself, the way he had people
wait on him. He had a hierarchy going that was
palpable in the church, and I think there was something
special about that. People could feel like they were part
of this really important church. They owned lots of property,
(28:21):
there was lots of glamour attached to that, but he
had a status that was above them right, and there
was a kind of buy in that was necessary to
make that happen.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
But that doesn't mean that She also doesn't struggle with
how to reconcile some of the contradictions around him.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
I hate to think ill of him because I feel
protective of Daddy Grace. I feel like so many people
have tried to tear him down. I don't want to
be one more person who's doing that. But in honesty,
I think there's probably some truth in a lot of
those accusations. Perhaps not to the extent and the extent
(29:00):
dreams that people were saying, but you know, I wouldn't
be surprised if some of them were somewhat true. For example,
the Man Act violation where he supposedly raped his female
companion in the car as they were traveling. Did he
do that? I don't know, But I do know that
(29:21):
when you read the transcript of the trial, it's very
clear that all of the witnesses on his side were
heavily prepared. They say the exact same thing, and it's
too close for coincidence. So there's something in there that
he didn't want people to know. What did he not
want people to know?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You know, that's a history.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And then there was the Irs. The Irs went after
Daddy Grace repeatedly for not filing taxes for failing to
report income for not being taxes on the large offerings
given to the church by its parishioners. He fought those
charges and he usually won, but it was constant tax fraud.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
Yeah, probably was that deliberate or was that just he
wasn't fully aware of how one needs to manage a
multimillion dollar church. That's entirely possible, right, How would he
have learned how to manage finances in the legal way?
I don't know that he would have, So, Yeah, I
think there's potential truth in all of that, but I
(30:25):
don't think that's really what we need to focus on,
because who among us doesn't have a dark secret or too? Right,
we just don't happen to be as famous.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
For many people in my family, especially the older generations,
these secrets were enough to rule Daddy Grace out, to
consider him a fraud, a crook, a con man, and
to completely deny any relation. And though I don't agree
with them, I understand where they're coming from. As black immigrants,
they were told by white society that they weren't worth
(30:57):
very much. Their standing in America was fragile enough that
they didn't want to do anything to disrupt it. Including
associating with someone like Daddy Grace, who was considered so
as my Aunt Judy said out there.
Speaker 9 (31:14):
What I have heard about Bishop Grace and all that
he has brought to his people is something that we
all can learn from. How about owning your own stuff,
how about not having no date? Not just about his
long nails and how people would what's.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
The matter with Daddy?
Speaker 9 (31:31):
He's all right. He taught and set the foundation for
his people to be dead free all their own property.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Reverend Louise Scott Rowntree is a council member at Large
for the City of Newark, New Jersey. Her mother, Madame
Louise Scott, was thought to be the city's first black
female millionaire. A self made woman, she built her fortune
by opening a salon selling beauty products and later opening
(32:00):
up multiple shops and even a beauty school. Reverend Roundtree
is very familiar with Daddy Grace and everything he accomplished,
because in some ways you could say that there are
parallels between the lives of Daddy Grace and her own mother.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
You know, my mother had.
Speaker 9 (32:19):
To work, so was she She really carried God with
her being an African American during those times when you
know racism.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Was high, and you had to have that.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
Because people say something to you that might make you
either hurt them or you get hurt by your response.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
In nineteen fifty eight, Madame Louise Scott purchased a twenty
six room mansion in the heart of Newark. It had
been built in the eighteen eighties by a local beer baron,
Gottfried Krueger. The Krueger Mansion was now the Krueger Scott Mansion.
Many people couldn't believe a black woman could own such
(32:58):
an extravagant building, but for Reverend Rowntree, who grew up there,
it was just a home.
Speaker 9 (33:04):
To be honest with you, I didn't know have any
idea who my mother was. I didn't have any idea
of where I lived. It was just all my life.
It was like I didn't realize the greatness of any
of this.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And besides her entrepreneurial skills, Reverend Rowntree also admired her
mother's commitment to faith. It's what drives her too.
Speaker 9 (33:26):
That will overseeing inter faith alliance where I tell people
that it's not about their religion, it's about humanity. So
we're gonna love each other. We're gonna play together. And
I got that from my mother. My mother I never
saw treat anybody different like. She never put any airs
on when she gotten certain. She was so busy being busy.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Daddy Grace was also a busy man, busy with his church,
the members, and all of his enterprises. But here's the thing.
With all his time spent on the house of prayer,
Daddy Grace's relationships with much of his own family were complicated.
His two marriages ended in divorce, and in nineteen forty seven,
(34:06):
his son Norman was tragically killed in a car accident
while on his way to meet Daddy.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Grace in Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
The aftermath of his death strained his relationship with Norman's sister,
his daughter Irene. They didn't seem to talk much after that,
and his son Marcellino from his second marriage, was diagnosed
with schizophrenia and had problems with the law. Daddy Grace
supported him financially for a while, but eventually seemed to
(34:35):
distance himself from him. Reverend Rowntree understands how being a
leader and being in service to other people can take
away from your own personal life.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
Family gets really pushed to the side a lot because
of the sacrifices based on what you've committed to, what
position you're in. So in my case, there's a lot
of things bad I look back on as as I
could have done different while working in government, being a
parent becomes a challenge during things, a family becomes a challenge.
(35:09):
Trying to make time for you becomes a challenge if
you're committed to the work.
Speaker 9 (35:15):
If you're not committed, then nothing's challenge.
Speaker 8 (35:18):
You just do.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
But if you're committed, there can be multiple challenges based.
Speaker 9 (35:23):
On what you have going on in your life.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Daddy Grace did have family.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
He was close to.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Family who were involved in the church, like his sisters
Louise and Sylvia, who frequently accompanied him on the road,
and many nieces and nephews as well, And of course
he was constantly surrounded by church elders, Grace soldiers, and
Grace maids. But in many ways he was alone. Doctor
(35:52):
Marie Dollom also wondered about Daddy Grace's personal relationships.
Speaker 8 (36:00):
He seemed to have a kind of on again, off
again thing with the first wife, and then the second
one was came and went fairly quickly. They just didn't
quite add up to me, especially For such a famous guy,
you think he'd want someone by his side, who's the
capable companion, who can be the equivalent female in the church.
(36:25):
It was surprising that he never found someone like that
to be there with him.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
As a self professed workaholic, I kind of took that
as I wonder if that's what it was like he
was married to the church that took precedence over everything.
It seems like his work was the thing he was
most faithful to his entire life, and maybe he didn't
want to share that with anybody.
Speaker 8 (36:50):
You know what, That's a really beautiful way to put it,
and you may be totally right on that. Yeah, that
was his loyalty right there.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Daddy Grace was clearly a man on a mission. Although
there are differing opinions about what that mission was, no
one can doubt that what he accomplished in his lifetime
was momentous, whether you agree with his methods or not.
For him, it was about saving souls and making sure
that his people were prosperous and living within the kingdom
(37:23):
that he built here on earth. And to do this
as an African immigrant, as a black man in America,
meant he paid the price. There is no doubt that
he benefited from the spoils of his work, but constant
surveillance by government entities around his church and his businesses, jealousy,
(37:43):
mistrust by his fellow Cape Verdians, contentious relationships, and family
fractures were the sacrifices that he made to build his
vision and fulfill the calling that brought him to America.
My own family worked hard to distance themselves from Daddy Grace,
even though there were multiple ties and connections. The feeling
(38:06):
in my gut has driven me to find the truth
in spite of what people might think or feel. I've
spent years working on this show, traveled across the Atlantic
several times, and poured over documents trying to discover the truth.
Is Daddy Grace really my family? And will I ever
figure this out? That's next time in the final episode
(38:29):
of Sweet Daddy Grace. Sweet Daddy Grace is a production
of iHeart Podcasts and Force, a media group. This show
is hosted by Me Marcy de Pina. It's written and
produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our story editors are
Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing sound design
(38:54):
and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing by Matt Russell,
show cover art by Viviana Salgado of Studio Creative Group.
Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive producers are Marcy
Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore,
(39:17):
Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu Phillip of iHeartMedia, and
all of my family members who talk to me for
this show, my ancestors, the United House of Prayer for
All People, and the countless number of people who shared
their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace with me. Thanks also
(39:38):
to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor Danielle brun Sigler, whose
academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace has been incredibly helpful.
And finally, I want to thank Bishop Grace himself for
choosing me to tell his story. For more information on
Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out the website Sweet Daddy
(39:58):
Grace and follow me at Marci Dapina on all social
platforms
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