Ep. 19; Advocating For Men's Mental Health With Dr. Audra & Allyson

With November being Men's Mental Health Awareness month, Morgan was reminded the lack of resources and information out there for men wanting to seek help or even go to therapy. She brought on Dr. Audra to share her expertise working with men and why it's so hard for men to seek (or find) therapy. Plus, they talked about men finding emotional vulnerability and why dating today is hard for both women AND men. Then Morgan's good friend Allyson comes on to share her experience growing up with an immediate male family member who was diagnosed Bipolar. 

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Follow Dr. Audra: @dr.audra.horney

Follow Allyson: @allyson_gelnett

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
With Morgan Folds Men.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
This week we are focused on men's mental health. Hey, guys,
Morgan here, before anyone jumps out men or women, this
will benefit all of us.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Both guests this week are.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Women, and that really actually wasn't my first intention. But
it's harder than you know to find experts in mental
health on the men's side, and it's hard to find
men willing to share their stories. But I did find
two great women who can help advocate for men in
our lives. First is doctor Audra, who is a therapist
and specializes in working with men. Then I'm bringing on

(00:48):
my good friend Allison, who grew up with an immediate
family member who was diagnosed bipolar.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
So let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, because November is men's mental health Awareness month. It
just happened, the whole November movement was happening. I really
wanted to focus this episode on men's mental health and
talk about it in a lot of different ways. But
first up, I have an expert on with me, doctor Adra.
And doctor Adra, you are a psychotherapist, but also you

(01:23):
kind of focus heavily on men's mental health.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
How are you How you doing?

Speaker 4 (01:28):
I'm great, I'm so good.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'm so happy to be here and excited to talk
more about my passion.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yes, okay, so men's mental health. So break down for
me why you chose to focus on this one.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well, I will be honest with you.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
It chose me.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
And I think that a lot of therapists can relate
to this, like when you're going into this work wanting
to be wholehearted and authentic in the work that you're doing.
Your clients choose you, your specialty chooses you if you're
allowing that to be in alignment for yourself. And so
I did not set out to become a therapist for
men to specialize in men's mental health. My dissertation was

(02:08):
on eating to sort of prevention in a data pool
of women, and so I was about as far from
this area specialization as you can get. But when I
started my full time clinical training, my internship year, in
my postdoc year, I was working at a university counseling center,
and so I was seeing a lot of eighteen to
twenty five year old clients coming in and I think

(02:29):
part of the blessing of that is a lot of
gen Z clients were coming in, and so a lot
more men, a lot more gen Z men. Men were
coming in for therapy, and I was just randomly getting
assigned these clients to my faceload, and come to find out,
it just felt like the perfect fit. I am a
more direct therapist. I don't have a very overly soft

(02:53):
or feminine energy, I think, so I'm going to like
call bullshit, I'm going to say it how it is, like,
I'm not going to be overly cautious in that sense,
and so I just felt like that was a good
fit for a lot of the men I was working with,
Like they were coming in wanting someone who wasn't going
to sugarcoat it, who wasn't going to just give them
empty affirmations, but was going to validate what they were

(03:13):
going through and then help them recognize, like, Okay, now
that I understand it, what do we do with it?
How do I change? Give me something tangible that I
can actually do. And so that's such my style, It's
what I've sought out for my own therapy, transparently, and
so it's just naturally what I brought to the room,
and it just happened to be a great fit for men,
and so over time it just became an area that

(03:34):
I leaned into while I was working at a university
counseling center, I co ran a men's support group. I
was just taking on more and more of these clients,
and then every place I've worked since it became really
like the in house. All my colleagues knew, Okay, these
are the clients Audre loves to work with. Audre Loves
is working with men who have never been the therapy,

(03:54):
who are really skeptical about there be like the tough
nut to crack, where I am up for the challenge.
Then we are today at this And then started really
publicly and forwardly presenting and marketing myself as a therapist
for men. This is the work I've been doing for
ten years behind closed doors, one on one with clients.

(04:15):
But over the last two years I've become a lot
more public with not just the work that I'm doing,
but advocacy around it. And so that is how you
and I ended up even finding each other. Is that
now I've built a presence for myself on social media
and have had really great opportunities to speak about men's
mental health and advocate for men's mental health outside of
the one on one private, confidential relationships I have with

(04:38):
my clients.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
You just mentioned it how I found you on social media,
which was so awesome, But what I found as I
was searching for you was there's one not a lot
of male therapists, and there's not a lot of therapists
who focus on men's mental health. So I was really
struggling to find an expert in this field. And then
I got lucky and stumbled upon some of your ideos,

(05:00):
and I was like, Okay, this is perfect, but it
was I was sitting there, I was like, dang, are
people getna get mad at me? Because I'm talking about
men's mental health and I have both women on this episode,
But it was so hard to find any type of
resources on this particular topic. So can you speak to
that a little bit?

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Absolutely? I mean, I talk all the time about how
my area of specialization, my expertise is in therapy for
men men's mental health, but if we think about it,
that's not a niche, that's not a specialization, that's half
of the population. And yet it is so rare for
that area of expertise to exist in the field of
psychology or therapy specifically, that it is a unicorn of sorts.

(05:41):
And then being a woman therapist for men of the
other therapists. Thankfully, over the last few years, I've meant
a lot more therapists who do love this work, but
many of them don't market themselves this way. It's a
little bit more common to find a male therapist who
talks on their website about working with other men, but
you would be hard pressed to find men any other
female therapists who specifically identify men as a population they

(06:03):
work with on their website. And so I think this
is one of the problems, is that, especially right now,
there's so much conversation around mental health and personal growth
and therapy. You know, we're working so hard to normalize
it and destigmatize therapy men in particular. Really, I think
being challenged right now to like go and become more
emotionally intelligent, like get in touch with that row, work

(06:24):
on yourself. You deserve this, go to therapy, right Like,
we're encouraging that, Okay, But then they go to look
for a therapist, They're going to have a hell of
a time finding someone who they feel, I would argue,
feel comfortable going to now you and I, for example,
like I've been in therapy myself, I think as a therapist,
it's really important that you understand what it feels like
to sit in the other chair. And I just value

(06:45):
it as a form of self care myself for myself.
When I'm looking for a therapist, I can identify ten
probably random criteria, you know, I could see, I want
to work with a woman. I want her to be married,
I want her to have kids. I want her to
specialize in anxiety. I want her to have gone to
school on the East Coast. I want her to have
blonde hair. Like I could identify so many different criteria

(07:05):
and find probably forty five therapists in my metropolitan area
who I.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Could work with.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
You sling a bat and you find a new therapist
who's a great fit. And on the contrary, you're a
man looking for And I'm going to talk in a
lot of generalizations today, so like I'm not talking about
all men's experiences, I'm not talking about all men who
are looking for a therapists. Like everyone's going to be unique.
I'm going to really speak generally, but by and large,
you look for a therapist as a man, you're going

(07:32):
to find a lot of women who have a lot
of therapists are largely women. It's a female saturated, female
dominated field, and so you're not going to find if
you're looking for a male therapist, you're going to have
a harder time finding that. And then you have all
these female therapists who are not listing men men or
men's specific issues on their websites, and you've got these

(07:52):
just even talking about the marketing, you've got these websites
that are like, no fault to the therapist, but very feminine,
very flowery, very calm, pretty colors. Right, it's not necessarily
creating a space that feels masculine or welcoming of men.
And so therapy already for anyone can be such a
vulnerable thing to put ourselves into. It's a risk for

(08:15):
a lot of us to say like, Okay, I'm gonna
ask for help. And then we're expecting men, hoping men
and challenging and encouraging men, really tasking men like, yeah,
go to therapy and do this vulnerable thing. But it's
going to be an even bigger risk because you're going
to have a really hard time finding a therapist who
is going to make it clear on the website that

(08:36):
they're there to help you.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
So then take it a step Clearly, I have like.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
A soapbox that I like existing on here.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Nope, I love it because this is what you're an
expert on, this is what you specialize, and this is
why you're here.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
I want to take that a step further because say you're.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
A male and you did finally find a therapist and
you're like, okay, this could be a fit for me.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
But then taking that a step further is they feel
uncomfort to do. So why do you feel it has
been generally harder for men to get into therapy?

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Generally, I think we expect men to be hyper independent.
They're problem solvers, you know, there's the trope around the
lone wolf, like you can do it on your own,
you can figure it out, and you are the provider,
you are the protector. Like they're all these and even
if these are stereotypes, they are really powerful expectations that

(09:30):
still exist in our society. And there are powerful expectations
that some men really hold true. Like there are a
lot of men that feel really proud of that traditional masculinity.
There are a lot of women who look to men
who want men to uphold that real traditional masculinity. There
are men who may be feel in conflict with it,
but regardless, there's an expectation, and so we're essentially asking

(09:52):
men to set aside everything that society has asked them
to be. You're a little boy, boys, don't cry, Suck
it up, be a man. Don't cry. I'll give you
something to cry about. Like I have men who are
commenting on my videos on TikTok and sending me dms
all the time, sharing the experiences they had at ages
as young as four or five or six where they learned, oh,

(10:13):
I'm too old to cry now. And so when you
learn that young that you're not supposed to have those
sorts of emotions, that you're supposed to figure it out
on your own, man up. And then we expect them
decades later to feel super comfortable walking in and asking
for help. There's just such a discrepancy there between what
we generally expect men to be and then what the

(10:35):
experience and process of asking for help and going to
therapy usually is.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
So being someone who is such an advocate for mental
health for everyone to address these issues and.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Go to therapy, utilizing this space.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
How is the best way we can encourage men that
they are not losing their masculinity and in fact gaining
emotional intelligence and emotional vulnerability to become like a better
version of this man that they want to be. On
this podcast, if I am encouraged, somebody's listening to this
and I'm like, yes, this is all true, this is
how I feel. Yes, how does someone like me or

(11:11):
say the women who are listening and their partner or
their brother or their family member, how can they make
it a space for that person in their life to
show them that they can have both Because they have
been taught, you know, on learning these things is part
of that, But how can people help them to understand
that better?

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well? I think part of what happens is that I
do believe therapy as a resource or like coaching, even
I feel like I know a lot of men's coaches
who do essentially what I do in therapy, But there's
a branding shift which I think can be a little
bit more accessible for some men. But I do think
even therapy is becoming a less stigmatized resource and even

(11:53):
in some places in the country almost like a status symbol,
like oh yeah, I've got the best therapist in New York,
Like you're in La like, yeah, I'm going to go
see my therapists, like there are places or I see
that shift happening. And I think especially versus for that,
I do see that shifting a bit. I think what
we can do general population can do is in our
own homes and with our own relationships with men. What

(12:13):
I hear from a lot of men is that before
they're even considering going to therapy, you know, they're gauging
in their own life. Is their space for me to
be emotional? Is there space for me to be vulnerable?
And what happens when I do take up that space?
What happens when I do allow myself to be vulnerable?
I open up, I cry, I share that I'm struggling,
I share that I'm hurting, I share that I'm I'm worried,

(12:33):
I'm scared. And what happens what I hear happen. And
this again generally, this is not everyone, not at all,
But I think the men who are especially reluctant to
therapy is that in their own lives, they're experiencing what
happens when they are vulnerable and emotional, and it's completely
turning them off. So they're feeling like, Okay, I opened

(12:53):
up to my spouse, I opened up to my girlfriend,
or I opened up to my friends, and they they
shut me down, or they laughed at off, they dismissed me,
or you know. I told her how I was feeling,
and she seemed okay. Maybe she seemed a little uncomfortable
in the moment that I cried. And then three weeks
later we got into a fight and she turned it
against me and she threw it in my face. And
so I think that unfortunately, we are all unlearning a

(13:14):
lot of these stereotypes. Women included, are unlearning what it
looks like for a man to be a man, and
what our expectations are and what we want and how
we reconcile those differences. If we're wanting men to ship,
then we're also having to recognize, like, oh, my expectations
then and what I've been socialized to expect speeds to shift.
So when my husband, say, for example, is sharing things

(13:35):
he's going through, I'm a therapist for men, and I
have to work on not getting defensive, being really open
and receptive, not jumping to well, that's that's a thought,
that's not a feeling. Like if men are trying something
new and it's something that we haven't really taught them
how to do. Like women are taught to feel a
lot of other emotions. And don't get me wrong, women

(13:56):
don't have this like free ride on emotions. Like men
get a ton of permission for anger. Women don't get
a ton of permission for anger. So, like they're pros
and cons for sure. But if from a young age
men are told like don't be weak, don't cry, be
a man, when they're thirty years old, forty years old,
and they're like, okay, let me try to be emotional
with my wife, it's probably going to be a little clunky,

(14:17):
like it's not going to be a flawless emotionally intelligent
like perfect execution of vulnerability. And so I think, just
in our day to day lives, the amount of compassion
and grace and permission we can offer to the men
in our lives to be messy is what I often
call with my clients, like show up and be messy, right,
Like take that mask off, like it's exhausting, let yourself

(14:39):
just be. And if we in our everyday lives can
create more space for men to do that in a
safe manner, then I think the next step towards therapy
and having someone who's unbiased, an expert, and specialized to
help them actually like change and grow is an easier
step to take because they've had the experiences already in
their life that say, Okay, I can take this risk
and it won't come back bite me.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Gosh, it's so hard, right, we're all constantly unlearning things.
But to I think this is why awareness and advocacy
is so important, because all the women who do listen
to this, along with the men, we can start to
understand each other just a little bit better. It's like
bridging that gap of hey, we're all trying to work
through this together, and let's have a little space for

(15:21):
each other.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's so important.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
I am curious, given where we are in just this
kind of state of men wanting to go to therapy
but not really. Do you see this correlation in dating
for men where they just kind of stop dating because
they're like, I don't want to do this, I don't
want to go to therapy and go through all of this,
and then I have these experiences with women and now
I'm shutting down. Do you see that correlation happening at all?

Speaker 3 (15:43):
I don't know. This is more of a curiosity question.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, I do. I see that in my private practice,
and I see that expressed a lot on social media.
And granted, the reactions I get from people who follow
me or engaging oftentimes polarized experiences, but there are a
lot of men who feel discouraged, who feel kind of hopeless,

(16:07):
who honestly, I think a lot of us feel tired.
This is hard work that we are all investing in,
and it's hard enough on our own, it's even harder
when you add a relationship into it, and you're like, God,
now we've both got our baggage on our message and
we're trying to fix it and we're trying to peel together,
and like, this is just so complicated. And so I
feel like a lot of men that are engaging with

(16:31):
my content especially are feeling tired and feeling discouraged. Those
are the loud voices, Those are the ones that speak
up and want to be heard, and they deserve to
be And I think, what is a really beautiful thing
that's happened on social media for me is having so
many different voices, so many different men's voices that come
in and even men who are saying no, this has

(16:53):
been worth it. You know, I had partners in the
past where you're right, like they weren't open to my
vulnerability and my emotionality. But I was in a more
stoic sort of shut down place when I met them.
So I was attracting someone who was okay with me
not putting myself out there, and when I tried to
put myself out there, I felt rejected. But like this
was the partner I attracted, This is the partner. Maybe
I've been subconsciously sought out. The beautiful thing is having

(17:16):
so many men who are actively engaging in like the
comments of some of my videos saying no, this is
worth it, like you guys deserve it, give it a shot,
give yourself a shot, like you're worth this. The relationships
that are more supportive and like want this from you
or out there. And so although I do think there
is a collective exhaustion and like fatigue around personal growth
because it is hard work, I also think there are

(17:38):
a lot of men out there who are seeing through
to the other side of that and are courageously speaking
up in favor of that experience.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
It's so interesting that you say this and share this,
because I've seen this across the board. I wanted you
to speak in that male perspective because it is, you know,
it's also heavily on social media. Women are more comfortable
with their feelings, and they're more comfort sharing their experiences
with dating, and it's not as common that you see
guys sharing that. Yeah, So I wanted it to be
from this perspective that we're all just kind of exhausted,

(18:08):
and I was hopeful that at least we're all feeling
that way instead of it being this one sided yeah
experience of life. You assume that and you hope that,
but to I think get the validation that that's happening
maybe can help everybody feel a little bit better.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yes, I think that there are more similarities than differences.
There are people who are just exhausted but still trying.
There are people who are fed up and saying I'm done.
And there are people who are just like so determined
and hopeful and will keep gritting their teeth and fighting
through until they find what they know they deserve. But
what I hear from men overwhelmingly like what I've seen.

(18:45):
The beautiful thing that I've seen, especially on social media,
is so many men taking the risk to speak to
their desires for growth and their commitment to themselves and
their self awareness that you know, maybe I actually did
kind of have a shitty childhood and I've brushed it
off and pretended like everything was fine, But like, maybe
I've locked everything up for forty years and it actually

(19:08):
still affects me, and maybe I do deserve to do
something about that, and I think being able to. I
give a lot of credit for the men who are
willing to speak up about those experiences, because I think
what's even more impactful is the men who are then
able to witness that. It's not everyone who's going to
jump into the comments on social media and share their story,
but it is a lot of people who are witnessing
that and maybe liking a comment or saving a post,

(19:29):
and I think that impact. The reach of that goes
beyond like what we could ever imagine. I'm hopeful about
where that's headed. I feel very invested in that because
I feel this trending in a really positive direction.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Oh I love to hear that. I love knowing that
we're just constantly taking and evolving therapy, and as we
start to get older, I know even women feel this way,
and maybe men do as well, where it's you know,
it's just too late. I've been this way my whole life.
It's fine, you can't fix this, there's too much here. Yeah, yeah,

(20:03):
can you speak to that, because I know that that
is not true, and I know that you can be
any age and unlearn and go through things, but coming
from you, I think it will be important to hear.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yes, that is just like overwhelmingly untrue. And I don't
just believe that because I am in the field in
the business of people seeking out therapy, like I am
permitted to this work because I care about what I do,
and I've witnessed the change that can occur. And I've
had men start therapy with me in their seventies having

(20:35):
never been to therapy before. You gather a lot of
life experiences. You could absolutely just put it in neutral
and coast, but I have seen the incredible exponential change
that can happen at any point in someone's life when
they decide now's the time. I can understand why you
may feel defeated and say like it's too late, right,

(20:57):
like the clock has been taken for a while. I
can also understand feeling regretful, like okay, I'm gonna go
change now, and then the rest, like all my life
up until this point is going to feel like the
waste or even seeing men sometimes struggle with that when
they do make those big changes, like God, why didn't
I do this sooner? And I see men do that
at twenty five. I see them do that at sixty five, right,

(21:19):
Like why didn't I do this sooner? And what I
always say is like, yep, I too wish you'd been
here years ago, and I'm really glad you're here now
and now you get the rest of your life. And
I think that's a really powerful thing that we can
experience at any point in our life, is realizing the
moment where things are always going to be different, like
where we now get to live the rest of our
life with a completely shifted perspective, and like, that's magical.

(21:42):
I don't care how old you are, and if part
of that is going to be wow, I saw it
a certain way then, and my perspective shifted. And you
can look at the past and feel regretful of that
or guilty that you didn't do more, like you can
have a lot grieve that loss, right, Like those emotions
are valid and it is so powerful at any point
in your life to be able to say and now

(22:03):
I know differently, and now that I know better, I
can do better. I think that's my Angelou, Like that
is huge, And I think if you get six more
months out of life being able to do better, feel better,
be better, then I think we're worth it.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Oh yeah, that was really good. And the quote they're
throwing in was just chef's kiss. So good to hear that. Again,
I knew all of this, but I think it's important
for people to hear, particularly men, to just understand that
it's worth it, even when it's hard. And it seems
a little crazy to be going back and reliving some
of these hard times.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
In our lives.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
What is something that you have seen working with so
many men and in men's mental health and just in
the field in general where you're kind of like, oh wow,
I didn't see this being part of this, Like is
there anything that was so unexpected? And this is kind
of a broad it could be anything, but particularly with
men that you're like, dang, I wish people realize this

(22:57):
more or knew about this, because this is such a thing.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
The thing that stands out to me and I think
It stands out because it happens a lot now and
it is also to me has made me just understand
my work with Eyes wide Open is the number of
men that I work with who start therapy. Maybe in there,
I see a lot of men like kind of middleish, earlyish,
in thirties, forties, fifties, oftentimes starting therapy, and it's usually

(23:23):
because they've exhausted all other resources. They've been to urgent
care fourteen times with you know, a heart attack, a
panic attack. They've tried to acupuncture, they've gone to a
life coach, They've done every diet or weightlifting regimen you
could try, like they've they've tried everything, and they're with
me because they're like, I finally somebody in their life
or some sort of expert provider medical provider was like

(23:45):
maybe try therapy right, and they're reluctantly with me. They
come in and the story is often like I've never
struggled like that. I've never been anxious, i haven't been depressed,
I've been fine until recently. What I often helped clients
do is I'm not here to just like dig into
your childhood and your history for the hell of it,
Like I'm not trying to make a mess. I want
to help my clients understand the why. Let's understand what's

(24:07):
going on for you and what's not working. But let's
understand it like that was probably born out of something
like really protective and adaptive, Like you're frustrated with yourself
for these patterns. Now they started from a place of
you just like doing your best. So let's understand why
you started that. Let's like dig into what was going
on for you where you had to start losing yourself
in work, or you started drinking a lot, or you

(24:29):
withdrew from your friends, or whatever it might be that
you learn you coped a certain way. And so many
of these men then they retrace their steps and they
get a little bit more perspective when you've got a
therapist there supporting you through this exploration and able to say, oh,
you know, like that that was impactful, that did hurt,
Like that was tough. Things did really change at that,
whether it was my family moved suddenly across the country,

(24:52):
or I had an injury in my athletic career ended suddenly,
or I had a loss of a loved one, whatever
it might be. There's these twonificant events, and so many
of these men I watch realize that they were naturally
really sensitive kids. They were feeling, they were emotional, Like
studies show baby boys are more emotional than baby girls.

(25:16):
Little boys are naturally more emotionally expressive, and it is
quickly by the age of like four or five, socialized
out of them, just the way that parents interact with them,
the way we treat little boys, and so so many
of these men realize, like, oh, no, I was really sensitive.
And usually the way they started saying that is like,
oh yeah, I was crybaby, or I was a MoMA's boy,
or I got picked on or whatever that might be.
But to be able to help my clients, and I

(25:38):
hope that I do this too, and the men that
I reach on social media recognize that, like that sensitivity,
like that emotion is so core intimate to who you are,
and like that's a superpower that's been conditioned out of
you over the years. So now you feel like you're
emotionally numb or you're emotionally illiterate, like you feel like
I don't know how to connect emotionally. Okay, now that's
how you feel. But I think what has been beautifully

(26:01):
surprising to me, is you know, I'm not trying to
make men more emotional for the sake of making men emotional.
I want to help men feel more and connected with
their true self, Like who are you at your core?
Who are you authentically? And like when you strip back
these masks and you feel like you are truly showing
up and being yourself?

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Who is that?

Speaker 1 (26:19):
And so many of those men are incredibly sensitive, but
they did not get the support, or the education, or
the encouragement to really lean into that. Like a lot
of women are right, Like I become a therapist because
I was celebrated for my empathy and my interpersonal skills,
and like I leaned into that. I think a lot
of men don't become therapists because they weren't necessarily encouraged

(26:42):
in that sort of helping direction. But so many of
these meant so many of you. If you're listening, men,
you peel back those layers, like who were you then?
And what would it be like if you're not going
to be the same emotional four year old you were then?
But what if you were just a little bit more
in touch with that little kid? Then do you have
a bit more access to that emotion? Let a little
kid for whatever reason, learned I've got to get this

(27:05):
aside to survive. But now as an adult, as you
have a little bit more autonomy, hopefully some safety in
your relationships, like permission, can you give yourself more permission
to be a little bit more in touch with that
like emotional core version of you? And that is like
one of the most amazing things I watch met and
do that like that I'm able to witness is like

(27:25):
that transformation of like I said, kind of like working
towards a place of more alignment to not have to
I think any of us can appreciate, like when we're
able to show up and be more authentically ourselves and
to feel like, oh not like I belong, Like I
don't have to just work so hard to fit in,
Like I belong here, Like I feel right in this space,
Like I feel connected to people. And when I'm able

(27:46):
to support men in getting there in a way that
makes them just like feel more wholes like I have
the best job in the world, Like it's just it's
amazing what I get to do. That experience is one
that I see all the time. Men who in their
mature lives are like very emotionally buttoned up, but like
you peel back those layers and there's a really sensitive
kid somewhere inside.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Wow, that's so interesting in how you shared that. But
also I never knew that just about like little boys
versus little girls and how that transpires. And that's even
crazy just me sitting here with this perspective that I
never knew that I makes this scene out in the
world and thinking that there's just all these men out
here that are just deeply not sensitive, and I'm like,
what is happening?

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Just feel something, please anything, And.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
It makes so much sense that you say it in
that way, because not only did they go through things
in similar capacities that women are also experiencing. Right, we
all have moments in our life that impact us. But yeah,
that they also had to button up so quickly at
such a young age that naturally trying to get that
version of themselves back again is going to take so

(28:53):
much effort in time and unlearning, and that's hard. That
requires a lot of effort and a lot of vulnerability
that they are also been taught you can't have. So
they're right, they're fighting. They gets so many yes either
which way they go.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's it's and then.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
We're saying like, well go to therapy. Yeah, but go
to therapy, like go work on it in therapy. They're like, okay,
let me search for a therapist. They're like, well, none
of these therapists want to work with me right, Like
they don't feel safe. And that was why it was
like a top priority for me when I started my
own practice. Was like my space. Like, don't get me wrong,
it's got like it's got a vibe, like it's got
a great feminine touch to it, but like it is

(29:32):
a lot of leather, it is a lot of dark tones.
It's not inspirational quotes on the wall. I have Teddy
Roosevelt's Man in the Arena quote on the wall. If
you don't know it already, like greatful to look into, yes,
And so like that's in my waiting room, like a
man comes in, he sits in a comfortable chair in
a space that feels welcoming, and like that's what he

(29:52):
sees and being able to like from the moment you
see me on whether it be social media or on
my website, into my office, the way I'm interacting with
you and talking to you. It's an inclusive welcoming experience
for men. I believe, regardless of gender, we're regardless of
personal experiences and identity, we all deserve inclusive spaces. We

(30:12):
all deserve therapy that feels like it is catering to us,
that knows us. I wouldn't walk into a therapist's office
if I sat down and be like ooh God, like oh,
I don't really work with women, and be like, well,
get me the hell out of here, Like how are
you supposed to help me? But we're asking men to
do that, unfortunately, And so I have like kind of
made it my own mission that in addition to advocating

(30:34):
for the work that I do in men's mental health online,
is also I work really hard to challenge other therapists
to like get their shit together, I say jokingly, like
with the clients I work with, like I call men in,
I don't call them out like I want to have
conversations with you, not at you. But I will be honest,
like I call therapists out, like I will throw some puncheons,

(30:54):
because I think it's necessary for us to wake up
and realize if we are in the business of helping,
then that should mean that we are very aware of
our own biases. We're very aware of what we're doing,
and we're very aware of the fact that we may
be like limiting half of the population from feeling like
they're welcome in our offices. And so that's a strong

(31:15):
push that I feel very passionate about now is challenging
my peers to do better because I know, just like me.
For you know, eight years, ten years before I started
my practice, I was doing this work behind the scenes,
but it was nowhere in my online bio or on
the group practice I worked for the website, was it
like specializing in therapy for men? People I knew, just knew. Okay,

(31:36):
if we get these clients coming through our doors, let's
refer them to Audra. It's so important though, for us
therapists as professionals, for helping professionals to be very clear
about men being welcome in the space, if they are
welcome in our space. Over the last few months, even
put together a directory of therapists for men that I have.
It's free for therapists to join who feel passionate about

(31:58):
this work and want to create a safe space for men,
and I share it. I haven't just like handed it
out like free candy on social media to men, like
it's LinkedIn my LinkedIn bio. I hand it out whenever
I get a DM asking for resources, and it's a
lot of therapists across the US, but Canada and actually worldwide.
I feel just like so dedicated to not just making

(32:18):
my practice with like the twenty clients I can see
a week inclusive, but seeing how I can help branch
this out, Like how can I you know, as a therapist,
you can only see so many hours of clients in
a week, and I can't offer therapy online to the masses,
And so I feel like if I can do something
to help other therapists, like step forward and say like

(32:40):
I have and I'll be honest, Like it did feel
like a bit of a risk as a woman to
be like, yeah, I'm a therapist for men. Like even
my husband was like really, like that's we're gonna go
with that, Like we can do that. I was like,
this is what I love, Like, this is what I do,
this is the work I want to do, this is
the work you have to say that you're doing, and
in it did feel like a bit of a risk
right to step forward as an expert in anything I

(33:02):
think you can feel that imposter syndrome, but it's so
important because that what I've noticed is that when you
do step up and you say I'm here to help
and I work with men, And here's what I stand by.
There are so many men who want to be in
therapy and aren't because they don't believe that there's a
therapist there for them. They don't believe that space is
a safe space. So I really charge therapists. You know,

(33:23):
we can't fault men for not going to therapy unless
we're first, and also vaulting therapists for not making therapy
and inclusive space for men.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Coming from my perspective, I love what you are doing
to help all of our guy friends out there in
the world and family members. I think there are so
many people out there who want this for them. So
I just appreciate you coming on, taking the time to
do this, but not only your specialization and what you're doing,
but the advocacy that you're also doing outside of your
job and your specialty. I think it's really cool and awesome.

(33:53):
So just props to you, but also thank you for
coming on.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Thank you sing all of this.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, I'm so grateful to be able to talk to
you about this. I appreciate the work you're doing to
spread this message and to share your message and your
experiences and to normalize this and just create even more spaces,
and I think that goes across the board, like the
healthier we all are, the better it benefits everybody else
around us. So thank you so much for inviting me

(34:19):
and letting me share some of this to hopefully reach
more people like that's my number one objective is to
get this information out there to the men who need it,
because the statistics on male suicide are really staggering. They're very,
very overwhelmingly scary, and if we're not stepping up to
do more to address that, then all we're doing is

(34:43):
standing with our jaw open at a statistic. And these
are family tragedies. These are not just numbers. These are
family tragedies. And so I think the more that we
can do to get this message out that there is
support from men who need it, the better.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
I've lost one of my dear friends to suicide. It's
still to this day rex me because I wish the
resources were there for him, and I wish we were
able to help in more ways so that is part
of my mission in general, is just across the board
for people to feel comfortable to get the help that
they want to get. And I want it to be

(35:17):
commonplace for us to have conversations not just about mental health,
but about depression and anxiety in suicide and everything for
every gender, for every person. So I really really appreciate
everything you are doing, so thank you, and thank you
for coming on.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Thank you so much. Was it was great to be here.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
This week.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
I am joined by one of my friends. Hello, Allison,
how are you feeling?

Speaker 4 (35:46):
Hey, A little nervous because I've never done one of
these things? Are been on camera?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Good?

Speaker 2 (35:51):
It's so funny every single time I bring one of
my friends who's not at all familiar with this just
category of things is I was.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Like, I'm nervous.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Even some of my friends who are They're like, I'm nervous.
It's the first thing they say.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
It's just weird because I'm not used to being in
front of the camera. I'm always with our artists. I
work in the music business. I work for Curb Records,
and I'm usually the one helping promote the artists. So
it's definitely really I guess eye opening to go, oh,
this is what they're having to do. But yeah, it's
definitely different. Hopefully it'll be beneficial.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
It will And the reason I wanted to bring you on.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
You and I have not only been good friends for
a long time, but you and I are both major
advocates of mental health. And you have a family member
that has been very involved in your life that also
has struggled. It has impacted you in a lot of ways,
and I also want to speak to that. Because November
is Men's Mental Health Awareness Month. Most people are familiar

(36:42):
with Movenber where everybody wears the mustaches and it's or
they don't shave. There's a few different campaigns that have happened,
but we are around the time of November. So I
wanted to bring you on to talk about this kind
of stuff in particular. So give us a little background
about you. I know things about you the people do not.

Speaker 4 (37:00):
What do the people want to know?

Speaker 2 (37:01):
So then background just about you and why mental health
is so important to you would be a good start.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
Well, I think you know, I work, like I mentioned,
in the music industry, and I think our industry first
and foremost deals with mental health a lot because, as
mentioned just coming in here with you. A lot of
people are in front of the camera, They're in the limelight,
and I don't think it's necessarily pretty or comfortable to
talk about mental health. And I've always been an advocate

(37:28):
for mental health, just growing up with a family member
struggling with it. I myself struggle with anxiety, and there
wasn't a lot of information out there growing up about it,
and there was a lot of stigma built around it.
So I'm in the generation that just believes be who
you are, whatever authenticity that is. I guess from an
early age is when I really started, it didn't matter
like the industry I was in or growing up, or

(37:50):
I was a cheerleader growing up, I was in musical theater,
I was in choir, and I felt like I noticed
people's emotions or like if they were going through something
even during then. It sounds cheesy, but I always wanted
everybody to feel comfortable just being themselves.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
So you've not only had personal experience of why this
is so important to you to bring awareness to, but
you and I have often talked about there is a
person in your life, like an immediate family member, who
you've dealt with this since.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
You were a kid.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
What was that like for you? Break that down a
little bit for me as a kid growing up with
that type of environment.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Well, one just to set the stage for everybody. I
come from a divorce family, and my mom and dad
separated when I was or got divorced at five. So
I was used to going to both sides of the families,
whether it was moms dads, you know, dad's side of
the family, mom's side of the family. My dad did
get married a couple of times, so I did have
multiple step brothers and sisters, which was fun.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
So you had some blended families happen it is, you know.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
So I got to learn all about a lot of
different types of people growing up. But growing up at
a younger age, I don't think I knew really what
was going on. The awareness wasn't there. I grew up
thinking everything was this is how people are in my family,
or this specific person. I'm like, oh, okay, it was
a male in my family, and I just assumed that

(39:11):
this is how this person operated in life. I guess
I didn't notice the fluctuations in the struggles that he
had until probably I was in high school when I
say fourteen ish fifteen years old. I specifically remember a
time in ninth grade where he was in the hospital
and my family was like, you definitely don't want to
see him like this, like it's just it's not good.

(39:34):
And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Not good?

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Oh gosh? And yeah, as a teenager, you're sitting there like, Okay,
this person that I'm close to in the hospital and
I'm not supposed to see him this way, right.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
And you're like, well why it's like, oh, okay, so
they're sick, like they're appendix and it's like, oh, it's
different and it's like, oh, what's different mean?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
You know, And it wasn't ever talked about within your
family of like, hey, this is what this is, and
try to explain to you what was happening.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
Thought I think I was probably made aware of it.
I mean, he was bipolar is bipolar. And I'm trying
to remember the very first time I was even told
the term, probably ninth or tenth grade is honestly the
first recollection I have of that. And I didn't know
what bipolar meant. I didn't even know probably what anxiety meant.
I knew what stress was. I'm like, Oh, I'm stressed.
I've got cheerleading practice and I've got homework, and then

(40:21):
I've got this part time job, and I gotta look
decent when I go to school, and I gotta wake
up at five am because we had to get the
bus at seven or six point thirty in high school.
I don't think I knew the depth of what it meant.
And I really didn't understand it until probably after I
was in college for a year or two and then
moved down to Tennessee. I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and this

(40:42):
person was like, you know, you're gonna get away from
your community. You're not gonna have the sports system and
the group and YadA YadA. Because again, I personally struggle
with anxiety. Didn't really know what that was until high school.
This person that struggled with bipolar, he was always saying,
it's not good, don't do this, don't move, don't whatever.
And it was during that episode of when I moved

(41:03):
down to Tennessee and was in college that I really
started to google, Okay, what is bipolar? What are these
episodes that people talk of? What is mania? What is depression?
What is hypomania? Because a lot of people don't know
unless you experience something, whether it's cancer or down syndrome, anything, right,

(41:23):
just anything, you really don't know unless you experience it.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
So from your perspective, break down what you watched bipolar mean,
the depression, the mania and the hypermania. This is kind
of you speaking as a looking back now, Yeah, you
realize it, Yeah, would be. My thing is like most
of this is probably things that you've realized, whether it
be through your own growth, your own journey.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
That you look back and say, oh, that's what that was. Oh,
this is what that looks like.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
Well, my cousins and I remember with this family member,
we would go outside and we would play and they
would come out and be like, oh, let's go play baseball,
let's break the leaves in the yard, whatever it was.
There was so much energy, and I remember at the
time noticing that there were multiple cars in the driveway
and I'm like, oh, he's rich, and I'm like he's
full of life and this and that. But then other

(42:10):
times we would come over to the house and he
would be sleeping till one o'clock or two o'clock, and
I'm like okay, And you know, as a kid, as
a family. You know, you're what's seven, eight and whatever,
eleven years old. You spend the night at your family
member's house. Your cousins are there, and you're kind of
there by yourself. In the mornings, you wake up. I mean,

(42:32):
as a kid, what time do we wake up at?
Like seven am?

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Right, ungodly hours of the morning.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Why we did that? I mean, I don't understand. I
wish we did that as adults right now. I would
be get a lot nicer. Yeah, but I remember waking
up and going, okay, well, I guess I gotta fix
myself breakfast, and then okay, well, now it's eight o'clock.
I fixed Ego mini waffles and Philadelphia cream cheese, both
terrible things for you, now, sorry. I would sit and go, okay,

(42:59):
now what then I'm I would maybe sit and watch
TV for two hours, okay, now it's ten o'clock, kind
of bored. Go on the computer at the time and
get on AOL if the dial up modem connected fast enough,
you know, and play some game or aim chat with somebody.
I remember it. It got to the point where it
was a little boring. But I remember him waking up

(43:19):
and being really groggy and just very somber, very mellow
all the time, almost like it took a minute for
him to wake up and kind of know what was
going on. And what I later learned was that was
actually the medication and him kind of being in a
depression swing. Because what happens with bipolar is it starts
out with either a hypomanic or manic episode, right, and

(43:42):
so it's this really high high. I describe it like
going uphill on a roller coaster. You go right, you're
getting you're strapped in, you're ready, and everything's really exciting,
and you get to the tippy top and that's like
the peak of the manic episode, and then bam, the
bottom falls out, just like zero to sixty. And sometimes
people have it where it rapid cycles, where it's really fast,

(44:03):
where they can cycle daily, twelve hours at a time. Now,
some people it's a really quick, quick high and then
it's a really long low, so it's a really quick
mania where it's basically hyper sexuality. They're spending a ton
of money, they think they're on top of the world.
For instance, this family member was telling me, I want
you to go buy a portion and like sell your

(44:25):
Honda Civic and pick.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Out a color I got you, or tell.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
Your fiance then at the time, I'll buy your ring,
and is a kid looking back, I thought I had
a rich family member, right, I thought I had a
really successful family member and a whatever. But in adulthood
then I go, this isn't a realistic way of thinking,
right that to be said, they're at this pinnacle high
thinking that they're on top of the world, and then

(44:48):
when the crash comes the stuff that people wouldn't want
to talk about. It's the suicide attempts, or it's the
thoughts of suicide because they feel worthless, and it's they
can't pull themselves out of it because it's just the
way they're chemistry is.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
You're mentioning all of this, and I'm thinking about you
as a kid. We are used to the older people
in our lives helping us regulate our emotions. They're the
ones who teach us how to do that. So now
as an adult, and I imagine there were things that
you had to figure out and learn and work through.
What were some of those for you that you didn't
have this person helping you understand how to regulate your

(45:23):
own emotions and go through life experiences in a way
that might have been more normal, I suppose as a
way to put.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
That, you know, it was tough. I don't know if
this is being a product of divorce parents and seeing
both sides of the family and whatnot. But I was
always really busy as a kid. I mean I did
every single extracurricular activity I could, and thank you Mom
for and Dad for funding me to go through those
because I think it made me who I am today.

(45:50):
But what I noticed looking back now is that I
was so busy that I don't think I had time
to become aware of those emotions or even learn how
to regulate. I just was so busy that I kept going.
I didn't stop. And I do remember there being times
where I was so overwhelmed and stressed out and so

(46:11):
busy that I would just I would have a meltdown
and I would cry, and I would I don't even know,
like sometimes I think I would binge watch TV. But
I was just overwhelmed with all these emotions going through
my head and not understanding some of the differences seeing
the other family members go through. I give a lot
of credit to my mother, because she was the stable

(46:33):
person in my life. I was with my mom mostly
throughout the week as I went to school, I would
come home and go to practice. What I realized later
on in life is that it's a blessing and a
curse because it definitely struggled with I guess consistency, and
I'm really good at my job and in life at
putting out fires because I'm so used to chaos in

(46:56):
our family from this disease and my look and my anxiety,
Like I deal with it myself, not bipolar, the ups
and downs, but the anxiety and the overwhelm to the
point where again I'm great at putting out fires. If
there's a problem, I'm like bam, bam, bam, because I'm
so used to walking on eggshells in those episodes and
in those moments that I know how to react fast.

(47:17):
But where I don't know how to react is everyday
life when things are almost normal, it's calm, but I
think I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, and.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's almost are used to uncomfortable in the chaos versus
the calm.

Speaker 4 (47:31):
One hundred percent, it actually feels awkward for calm moments
for me as.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
An adult, have you learned and found your ways to
deal with them.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
As somebody who always loves dance and I was a
cheerleader growing up a musical theater, you got to think
those are high emotions, right, or you're.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Always on or lots of adrenaline.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
Yes, okay, great word, a lot of adrenaline. And yoga
was a really hard thing for me. It was slow,
and it was boring, and I had to breathe really deep,
and I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna lose my mind.
This is so boring. But what I realized is a
for my anxiety, yoga and calm really helped deregulate that anxiety,

(48:16):
and it also helps me stay in the moment more.
But I give a lot of props to my husband
because living with him throughout the past decade, he was
always a consistent, calm, very even keeled man in my life.
You know, because I came from divorce parents and I
really didn't get to see my dad all the time.

(48:36):
I really learned what men were like from mostly this
one family member, and it was a challenge in my relationships.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
That's what I was going to ask you about, was
how did this impact you as you started dating and
you knew this as a model.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
I was very much a six week queen or max
six months. Look, I would find something I either didn't
like or I was bored, and when I get bored,
I move on.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
So what made a different moving into this relationship? Do
you feel like you worked on a lot of things
up until him?

Speaker 4 (49:09):
Yes, and no, I worked on a lot. But I
think we're always a work in progress, right, I mean
I'm still working on myself today.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Oh yeah, I don't think you ever. I think we
will die imperfect.

Speaker 4 (49:21):
One hundred percent, one hundred percent. I mean, trust me,
I say it all the time. A perfection is a
flaw in itself.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
It is it truly, And that's coming from two perfectionists.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
Yeah, you know, I didn't know I was an a
type personality until like five of my friends that were
close to me. They're like, you're kind of a high achiever,
and I was like, but I'm not perfect. I'm not consistent,
I'm not this, I'm not that. I just have high expectations.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
High expectations, yes, but they do coincide often with a perfectionist.

Speaker 4 (49:47):
Yeah, well, okay, whatever, I am guilty.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Oh so am I We're a mere image of each
other sometimes, so This is true.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
Our dogs do kind of look alike.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
We have a lot of commonalities.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
But going back to the relationships, you know, with my
now husband, I would say, we made this joke early
on in our relationship, and I'm like, hey, I'm a runner.
I run away from relationships because I get bored and
this and that or I find something wrong. He's like, well,
I'm going to take your running shoes away. I was like,
does he does this man know that I'm an independent woman.

(50:17):
I am not moving in with a man before marriage.
I am not, absolutely not. I will buy my own groceries,
I will make my own money and lo and behold like,
I don't know. Four months, three months after we met,
I'm moving across the country and I'm going out to
live with them.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
He really did take away your running shoes, and may
we all find a man who takes away the running choose.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Hey, it was a lot of work.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Don't think it was easy.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
I don't think it was easy. I know the story, I.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
Know the back look, and we went through couple's therapy ourself,
and I am going to say this to everybody that's listening.
I am a huge advocate of couple's therapy and personal therapy.
I know there's this stigma about going to therapy, but
everybody needs therapy. Everybody.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, you could be the most helled person in the
world and you still need therapy.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
I mean sometimes it's just nice to talk to somebody
that has literally no relation to you, has no they
don't actually have like skin in the game, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Yeah, they're not invested in you personally, but they're not
invested in the outcome of what you're invested into.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
Shout out to betterhelp because we use them or I
use them for individual therapy. And then we did their
couples therapy, which was I can see the heart. It's
like a light blue heart. I forget the name of it.
It'll come back to me. But it's great because as
somebody who travels all the time in my business, I
don't always have time to come home after a flight
and necessarily go to an in room therapy session. Highly

(51:43):
recommend that if you don't have a ton of time,
they do work with income like a sliding scale, because
God knows, I was poor multiple years ago and paying
for student loans.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
And I do want to based on therapy to you
made me think of something kind of in relation to
this family member. So now as you've gotten old, right,
we kind of addressed the young parts of what happened.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
But now as you've gotten.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Older, I imagine tables have reversed a little bit where
you are taking care of them. Yeah, how is that
experience for you? Given that you kind of had to
take care of yourself in a lot of situations.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
There's moments where I'm really proud of myself for how
I've handled things given the situation that I've been in
and being the only family member that really wants to
advocate for this person and realize, hey, any of us
could have been born with this. It's that Part's a
blessing and a curse of myself because while I don't
need to take it on, I do because I care.

(52:39):
You know, I want everybody in this world. I don't
care if it's you sitting here with me, or an
artist I'm going to work with, or a radio client
or the three like a dog walking down the street.
I just I care so much that I want people
to know that they have purpose, I guess, and look,
I want to know.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
That, I right.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Yeah, it's a human nature to want that.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
Yeah, And so I think it's the caring part of
me that has put me in those roles. But it's
also it's been really tough, Like there's been times I've
wanted to give up, and I don't mean give up
in the sense of my life, but give up and
not help. Because sometimes just as we get frustrated in

(53:23):
a relationship, right or a job or anything, I get
frustrated in not knowing what to do. And it's because
some of the mental health regulations state to state and
federally are not set up to fully help people in
those moments. Did you know in any state, if somebody
actually needs to be hospitalized in a psychiatric unit, they

(53:46):
have to one say they're a threat to themselves, meaning
they're going to kill themselves, okay, or they're going to
kill somebody else, So it's suicide or homicide. A lot
of people and men specifically, if they're gonna commit suicide,
you're not gonna know about it.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, they've been taught not to talk about their feelings.
They've been taught that sharing these emotions and these things
it makes them weak. They're not gonna tell anybody, Right,
You're gonna have to pick it up.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
Right, I mean, it's okay for emotion or for a
woman to be emotional, right, and that kind of goes
along with mental health. But I mean, look, we're called crazy,
we're called hot messes. Like there's all these things I
could go into for that, but it's still whether it's
happy emotion or sad emotion or crazy PMS emotion. You know,

(54:38):
it's accepted that women have these emotions. It's not accepted
that men have them. You expect a man to be
either even keeled, a little bit cocky and confident, or
maybe they have anger. There's not the same level of
it's okay to be sad, it's okay to feel despair
or to feel like you're worthless or I shouldn't say

(55:00):
it doesn't it's not okay. It's just those are real feelings.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, you're allowed to feel those things while also feeling
the other feelings.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
They're not mutually exclusive. Correct, And to.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Your point, I didn't know that. I didn't know about
that law. I do hope that's something that changes, because
I can guarantee the many people I've talked to about
mental health, the people who suffer from it, are never
going to say one of those two things one, because
that feels like a drastic leap from what you're feeling
most of the time. Correct, unless it has really gotten

(55:32):
to a really, really really bad point. Most of the time,
you just don't want to be here in a way
right without the extra levels of that. So to admit
that makes it more shameful, It makes it harder on them,
and then it makes people not get help and shame.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
Shame is literally the word that so many people are
afraid of. And you know, I think it's really important
to note. While there are there's cognitive behavioral therapy, right,
there's a difference between psych coologists and psychiatrists, as psychiatrist
typically prescribes medicine based on X y Z symptoms and
the psychologist is going to work through the different ways

(56:09):
to work through the emotion or to work through the
moments and to get to the other side of it. Right,
It's about going through instead of just going around, Like
the medication helps you get to a point where you
can go through. And I think both of those things
are okay. They're not mutually exclusive, but I will say
if you are taking medication, they should be mutually exclusive.

(56:30):
It's okay to take medicine but I do believe that
we've also seen in the past decade an over use
of prescription medicine for mental health, when maybe it's social media,
maybe it's a generation change, but I think we've seen
a lot of over medicated people in society, but not
enough medicated through therapy. And I'm not again saying one

(56:55):
is better than the other, or you can't do both,
or YadA YadA, but I think there's a lot that
we have to work through as people.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, I think believing that it's like a band aid,
right if you think, oh, I just need this to
feel better, and you're probably right, it will make you
feel better, but you need more than that you want
to I'm not at the point in my life where
I don't want to go into a doctor and say
give me a band aid for this wound.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
I'm saying fix the wound.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
Right, Let's get to the root cause, Like what is
going on? Okay? If you are out of a job,
right and you're feeling like I don't have a purpose
because you're not getting up and going to work every day,
what's your goal? The root cause is I don't have
a job. I need to go get another job, right,
or invent a job. A lot of people go, I
feel sad, I feel this way, and some people, some

(57:43):
people that's our medication does come into play, but sometimes
there's other things that that root cause. Male or female.
But a man is not going to talk about it
necessarily as much. They feel like they have to shove
this thing, this emotion, this feeling of overwhelm down inside
the to a point where none of us want to
see anyone go.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
You're saying this, and it brings me to the reason
I brought you on was to provide this awareness of
growing up with a family member that had a.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Really intense mental health disorder.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
If this family member, because he was a male, was
told and allowed to express his emotions and went to therapy,
what would have been that change, Like in your household, I.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
Think it would have been different in the family, so
there wasn't the shame and then guilt and the embarrassment. Again,
it was such a stigma back then. Even our family
members like hate to call them out on it, but
they're like, oh, you know, you just need to suck
it up and get over it, or oh, this person
sent X, Y or Z over and over again. Well
it's like, yeah, guys, it's not a You don't just

(58:52):
cure anxiety. You don't just cure bipolar. You can manage it,
you know, you can manage schizophrenia, you can manage bipolar
mail man all these things, but you don't get over it.
It is a lifelong disorder. And I think if therapy
was more better advocated, I guess back then and for
the baby boomer generation, then I think we'd be in

(59:13):
a different place today. I think the kids of the
baby boomer generation would be different. I think we might
all be stronger. Not to say that social media is
in its own devil in itself, because it's again a
blessing and a curse. You can get on social media
and you can find different things to motivate you and say,
oh my gosh, I hope you have a great day.

(59:35):
And then you have other people that are like, it's
okay to be sad, and it's okay not to be okay,
and like things that help you cheer you up. But
then you have these people that are trolls, constantly like
and be negative on your accounts and for you even
like I can't imagine of reading some of your own post,
the hate that you've dealt with. Right, maybe our generation

(59:56):
would look at therapy as something as easy as going
to a dentisty women or working out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
It's just a part of the schedule.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
It's not something that is this dooming, dark little cloud
that follows you around.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
If you portray therapy like maybe going to gym, I'm
not saying I am like, oh yay, I can't wait
to go to the gym because I struggle a lot
until I get into a routine. But if you have
that endorphin high like you do after leaving the gym
where you go, I'm never going to be mad that
I actually like, you're never mad that you actually worked out, right,
We're always happy, Oh like, yeah, I feel great. Oh

(01:00:31):
I look hot, I feel so good. My body feels healthy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
Could you imagine walking out therapy like that, like you
get that same endorphin.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Yeah, it's true. And it doesn't start right away though,
I can no no moment. It takes a few sessions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Before I'm finally like okay, we're on the other side
of that, because those last ones were pretty heavy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
Hey, you don't walk out of the gym the first
time you start, though, either lifting weights and like, oh, yeah,
I can't wait to go back. No, you don't want
to go back.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
No, this is so true.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
And it's a muscle that you have to work. Your
brain and your understanding of your body and your experiences
is a muscle that you have to understand.

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
And what's interesting, I think you had a neurologist or
a neuroscientistscientist okay on the podcast a couple months ago,
and what was really interesting. I've done a lot of
some kind of a nerd I like once I I
don't know. Once I dive into something, I really dive
into it. So if anybody ever needs any resources about
mental health, dm me hit morganap like, I will send

(01:01:28):
whatever I've got. I literally have pdf saved and links
and numbers like. I just want people to know if
there's tons of help out there now as opposed to
twenty thirty years ago. Heck even ten years ago. She
talked about rewiring your brain, right, Yeah, And I do
believe that that is a legitimate thing because you see
it in science, right. You see the neuropathways start regenerating

(01:01:49):
and connecting new ways, whether it's a good habit or
a bad habit. And I do believe I don't even
know what the word is. Brain training is brain rewiring, brain.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Training, brain rewiring your brain. There's probably multi different level.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
I think and brain train. Okay, I don't know if
anybody brain train, brain brain train. It could be like
a kid show. And it does feel like that Out
of the Box.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Oh did you ever watch that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
I was a Blues Clues girl.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
I watched Blues Clues also. Out of the Boxes?

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
My jam is it like a like a jack in
the box?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
No, man, listen, this is a fake. We're totally going
off the rails. But this is a fake. Like they
had all these boxes in the front yard and then
they'd walk into the boxes and boom, there's this huge playhouse.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
How were you not terrified of that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
I loved it. I went in my own playhouse like that.
I would put it boxes down. I'm like, my boxes
aren't turning into out of the box.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
Okay, I'm sorry that. It kind of reminds me of
like walking past a porta potty in the park and
somebody just popping out like surprise. I think it would
hit them like scare me. Listen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Out of the box was my solace. It was a
safe place anyways.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
Okay, well I'll have to go Reaves this just for you. Yes,
but I do wonder if rewiring your brain is going
to become a new form of therapy that's more vastly known,
because I do believe it's a muscle, and I do
believe that there's some real evidence in science behind the
fact that it does work. And if people you know
that struggle from bipolar or schizophrenia, you know, they say

(01:03:20):
routine is a really big part of managing everything. Routine
is it really is everything, especially sleep. If there's a
way to routinely rewire your brain along with therapy and
along with medication, I think maybe we could see some differences.
Because if you're rewiring your brain and your neurochemistry and

(01:03:40):
that's the thing that's causing X, Y or Z disease
for you to have these terrible thoughts or feel a
certain way, then maybe there's some bare hope out there
that we can get past it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
If our present is any indication of that we have
come a long way. Oh, she means that we're just
going to keep coming a long way. At least I
would like to think, and I'd like to believe in hope.
I want us to leave on kind of a piece
of advice. You could lean into this with the advice
for a kid who's maybe experiencing this with a family member.
You could lean into this with the direction of somebody

(01:04:13):
who's helping a family member as an adult that went
through this however you want to, but maybe some advice
for people that are experiencing similar things that you have
gone through throughout the.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Course of your life.

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
I think my biggest advice is don't give up. But
also you have to take care of yourself. And the
one thing I always struggle with is taking care of
me first and putting my oxygen mask on first, because
you really can't help anybody else if you're not okay.
You don't have to be perfect, but you've got to

(01:04:44):
be okay.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
I think that's really great advice.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
And you are an incredibly strong, awesome woman who I
have loved having as a friend, not only for your
amazing heart, but just you as a person. Empathy and
kindness such a long way and you have all of those.
So thank you everything you keep doing. Just keep doing it,
but please also take care of yourself because I want
you here forever.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
I want to be here for a while.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
I have a lot of stuff to do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Okay, deal, even though November just ended, it doesn't mean
I wasn't going to focus on this topic. I think
if this episode is any indication, we need to talk
about men's mental health now more than ever. Please remember,

(01:05:32):
if you're listening to this and you resonate with any
of it, and maybe you're struggling right now, that nine
eight eight is the suicide in Christ's lifeline, and it
can help anybody who's struggling with mental health. I really
hope this episode provided some context or maybe much needed
information for your life. Men were here for you and
want to get you the help you deserve, and for
all the women listening. Let's be that support system for

(01:05:53):
the men in our lives to get the help if
they need to do so. I love y'all so much,
thank you for being here. Can't wait to talk with
you next week. Week