November 7, 2024 • 68 mins
Brandon shares a messy story about their first time having penetrative sex. Then, Brandon's partner, Matthew Raymond-Goodman, joins to play our first game of 'Would You Rather,' including some hilarious moments. And rounding out the conversation, Brandon and Matthew address what's been mentioned in previous episodes: Their non-monogamous marriage. Resources:
Ethical Slut: https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Practical-Relationships-Adventures/dp/1587613379
Poly-Secure: https://rep.club/products/polysecure?srsltid=AfmBOoq2ZLmL8C_nOWPB6BSpZd5AphPzEwG3Loksn0raqOFkcnsM99gV
Mating In Captivity: https://bookshop.org/p/books/mating-in-captivity-unlocking-erotic-intelligence-esther-perel/7385511
Find Matthew on IG @matthew_raymond18
Follow Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandonkylegoodman Join the C'Heauxmunity at https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/ Submit your own messy story or question at TellMeSomethingMessy@gmail.com or call (669) 696-3779
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I also, I don't shoot massive loads. My best friend
and I talk about this. How do you don't say
something like that? And you know what we do here
destroy shame around sex by talking about sex.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Now, let me tell you something messy.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Well, before we jump into the episode, I do want
to acknowledge for my American host that this is quite
the week, And of course I have thoughts. You know,
I consider the show comedy forward and educational. But you know,
we're here talking about sex and bodies and I am
a black, gay, non binary, first generation American like so
(00:43):
the show is inherently political. So if you are interested,
I will talk more about my feelings on what has
happened this week at the end of the episode, after
Hose with Heart. But for now, let me tell you
a messy story. The first time I had penetrative sex
was in college. I was eighteen, eighteen years old freshman
(01:06):
at NYU. I lived in the dorm. Shout out to
anyone at NYU right now, who's been to NYU Third North.
It is on Third Avenue Downtown. But the thing about
the building is it has three towers, so it was
like the north tower of the South tower. And I
think the East Tower. I'm pretty sure I was in
the North Tower. But there was this boy. There's always
(01:28):
a fucking boy. My god, there's this boy. And what
shall we name him?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We'll name him.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Let's name him Leslie. I love, I loved the name
Leslie on a boy beautiful. His name is Leslie. So
Leslie was in musical theater. So I was a drama major.
Leslie was a musical theater major. And the dorms weren't
broken up by your departments, just it was a freshman dorm.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But this fucking cuty lived in the East Tower. Yes,
across the courtyard.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now here's the thing about the musical theater boys that
I have to acknowledge. Is to me, they were so
fucking hot. I don't I don't know what it was.
You knew the musical theater boys were gay. Like everybody
else was like trying to, you know, be masculine. How
you in theater school trying to be masculine is a
mystery to me. But everybody was trying to be masculine,
(02:22):
you know, trying to be the leading man. But the
musical theater boys they were queens, honey, Okay, they were
wearing their skinny dreams from American apparel, their fucking big
boushie scarves. Everybody had a purse in the in the
in the gay part of the arm, which is, you know,
on the elbow. That's not that I like to wear
(02:44):
my bag, my little bag on the elbow, the gay
part of the arm.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So this Leslie, Leslie had to be I'm six to one.
Leslie had to be like six.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Two, lean body and like could do a motherfucking high
kick in his sleep. And oh a jawline a jaw
oh oh oh drool.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I really wanted to drool all over him.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So one night I went out with him and two
or three other friends and we went to this bar
that was called Asian Pub, which I hope it's closed down.
Terrible name for a pub because no one Asian worked
there or ran up. But it was called Asian.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Pub and they would give.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Us eighteen year old's alcohol. That's all I went because
they never they never carded, so I was always drinking
a mohito. I was always drinking a margarita, a pina colada.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
They had me lit up at that place.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So I'm at this table with Leslie and three other
people and we are we're drinking and we're eating at
Mamee and we're we're Keith King and we're laughing, and uh,
Leslie and I have a moment where we lock eyes
and he gives me this look that y'all know.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
To look I'm talking about is that.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It's that one look where you're like, oh, okay, you're
about to mess me the fuck up. Okay, all right,
all right, I'm gonna look back. So I gave him
a little look back.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And then as the night came to an end, everyone
was going back to their dorms. Leslie and I live
in the same dorm as you can imagine. So we
walked ourselves back up third half into the dorm and
I was gonna go to the North tower.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
He was gonna go to.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
The East tower across the courtyard. But you know, he
was like, do you wanna like watch a movie? I
think he's asked me to watch a movie or something
like that. And I said, absolutely, of course, I would
love to watch a movie with you, less thick, I
would love to what let's go. So I went up
to the East tower. He had a roommate, I don't remember.
(04:46):
The room is home at the time either way. We
go into Leslie's bedroom and he has posters of the
shows he's been in, and one of them was this
musical Anything Goes, and Anything Goes was my senior year musical,
and both of us have.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Played the lead.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I had no business playing I'm not a singer like that,
but they cast me seniors, so we both were.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We both played the straight male lead in this musical.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And now here we are on his twin bed underneath
the poster about to do something. By the way, this
is my first time having sex. Okay, so like I
haven't done it yet, and I definitely haven't had queer sex.
But my all I know about sex that my dick
goes into a hole.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's all. That's as far as I've gotten.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay, Leslie and I are, you know, on the bed
we're making out or whatnot. And then Leslie asks, are
you a top or a bottom? These musical theater girlies,
they they knew more than I did. Now when he
said top or bottom, I didn't understand. Now if you
don't know what that means. So top, let's just say
top is the penetrator and the bottom is the receiver.
(05:55):
So he asked you top or bottom. I didn't understand
the no one gave gave me my gay guidebook, no one,
no one gave me the glossary yet, So he said
top or bottom. I'm not thinking, you know, receive or give.
I'm just thinking, oh, like, do you want me to
be on top of you? Or would you like me
to be on my back? And I'm on the bottom.
(06:16):
I'm thinking position. I'm thinking, you know, physical position, not
sexual position. So I say bottom because I don't know.
I've seen like poorn, like you know, the girl gets
on top of the guy and rides the deck and
I was like, oh, that's.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
That looks like fun. So yeah, I'm a bottom.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So he said, okay, cool Ben, and then he pulls
out a condom and his dick, very very hard dick.
By the way, the dick is is a I might
as well have been a coke can. It was a
coke bottle. It was thick, it was girfy, and I
was like, oh my god, look at that big fucking dick.
But I'm not worried about it until after I say bottom.
(06:54):
He starts putting the condom on that coke can, and I.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Was like, oh, that's interesting. Would he need to put
a condom on, but okay.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And then suddenly my legs are lifted and he's putting
lube on his dick, and then he is promptly entering me. Yeah,
it was everything that, everything that you think happened, everything
that you feel would happen when a coke can enters you,
and it happened to me. I will say I didn't
(07:24):
I didn't squeal or anything, but internally I was screw
There was a coke can in my guts. I for
the for the first time, I was I was undone,
I was unhinged, unwell.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
He fucked me. Uh and then you pulled out, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
We we exchanged some niceties and I took my ass,
my sore ass.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I hobbled, I hobbled the itch.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I hobbled to the elevator, hobbled down across the courtyard,
hobbled my fucking North Tower elevator got my bit. I
have never Ooh, I'm feeling the pain right now. And
I got to my room and my roommate asked me
why I was walking funny, and I think I told
(08:14):
him like I pulled a muscle in glass or some shit.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And that was that was it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
That was my first time having sex, and I learned
the difference between the top and a bottom.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Now I love bottoming. But if you are not a
bottom and a dick is suddenly inside you, it's surprising.
It's shocking.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Baby, it'll gag you something serious. It'll gag you something serious. Okay,
that's my messy story. Baby, you know what that means.
It's time for a guest. Now, while they get situated,
we'll get our messy key. Key started with a whole
manifest stoe. Oh my God, repeated after me aloud or
(08:54):
in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame,
the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex
is not just about penetration, The audacity to advocate for
my pleasure and my boundaries. The strength to not call
my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or buck bay,
for it is better for me to masturbate by myself
(09:14):
in peace than to let someone.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Play in my motherfucking face.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Let the community say, oh, helujah. Matthew Raymond pronounced he
him his graduated from Boston University in twenty ten and
Boston College in twenty twelve. In twenty fifteen, while living
in New York, he struck gold when he messaged a talented,
funny and stunning young thing on tender. Matthew asked the
(09:40):
tender bombshell out on a date in hopes just to
get some ass because he already had a one way
ticket to move to Oakland, California in the fall. But
that night, instead of falling into some ass.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
He fell in love.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
His life was changed for the better forever, really elevated, expanded,
and gave him a reason to get up in the morning.
After a year of long distance, Matthew moved in with
his tinderboo. Two years after that, Matthew had the wisdom
to want to marry the gorgeous tender miracle in a
plan proposal where he and his now spouse took turns
(10:17):
getting on their knee and asking the other for their
hand in marriage. Matthew, this is a wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Bio wonder who wrote it?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Matthew says it was the best decision of his life.
I don't know who wrote this, but I thought it
was you. Since getting married, Matthew has said that his
partner is the light of his life, the wind between
his ass cheeks, the missing tape measure of his toolbox.
Even with two master's degrees, Peace Corps and a successful
(10:44):
teaching career ed averging new career as a therapist, Matthew says.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That marrying that beauty from Tinder is still his greatest accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Messy patrons, please help me. Welcome my husband.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Matthew Raymond. Mate, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
My goodness, thank you. I didn't realize we were doing
a fantasy podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Read. Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
One thing you also to know about husband is that
he has lived with me. We've been together for nine
years now, and he's learned how to throw shade and
it's it's quite good.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But I will fight you, honey.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Okay, I know I'm in the other room, so.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Don't get too reckless.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Anyways, to a few messykiki guidelines for you listening and
for you Matthew, because you know, we like to have
we like to have rules around conversations that keep everyone
safe so we can have really great conversations. So one
things get to be unprocessed too. Any thoughts or opinions
shared have the right to evolve, shift or change today, tomorrow,
(11:48):
ten years from now. And if during the kiki something
feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe
word foosball, which gives a chance to pause and address
or pit it accordingly.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Sound good, heavy, sounds wonderful.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Matthew, I would like to start by playing a.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Game, or we'll call it a lube breaker, because obviously.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Ooh, I'm down, let's do it, gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So do you know how to play? What you rather?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's like, I'll give you two options and you tell
me which one you rather. Okay, great, just wonderful.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
You've went around the block.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Even around the block you were in like grade school
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, So would you rather never suck dick again or
never eat ass again?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
WHOA?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I know this is a terrible, terrible decision to me.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I know, I know it's a hard one to start with.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Okay, well, I think I'd probably have to go with
never eat ass again, because there's just something about a
dick in my mouth filling it. Huh, That like just
satisfies so many cravings.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I don't know if I could live without that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I don't know what I would. I would probably also say, God,
I hate to never eat ass again.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
But I do love I do love it so much wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, you know, it's why I have lollipops.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
You know, I walk around the house lollipops because I
like having something in my mouth.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Okay, so I guess we're both. We're both saying.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Oh my god, I feel like flashbacks to fucking middle
schools being teased and bully but now we reclaim it cocksuckers. Yes, okay,
So would you rather have your nipples clamped or your
balls tapped?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I'm I'm I'm gagging because I'm in pain just thinking
about either of those. I don't like pain. I'm very
pain averse. I'm very sensitive, little baby. We're very sensitive,
little baby. I would say, I would rather have my
balls tap my nipples. No, no, no, don't come near
my nipples with the clamp.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Absolutely, Okay, Well, so I have my nipples pierced. I
were there, you okay, he.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Was there, and I had to leave the room.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I did get it, fierce, We got it, per On.
Was it Christmas Eve? It was Christmas Eve?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Right, Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
It was Christmas. It was a.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Holiday, and we were spending the holiday in l A.
And I have been wanting to get my nipples pierced
since I was like in college forever. I've talked about
it but been so scared and then I don't, you know,
whatever the trauma of the holidays are.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I kind of woke up and was like, I want
to get.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
A pierced Matthew, and so we took a family trip
to the Nipple Shop, a piercing place adornments absolutely, and
we chose. I chose the one I wanted, the climp
or the pierce that I wanted. And it took forever
because they said my nipples were so small that it
(14:44):
was taking them longer to somebody is cringing right now
that sweating it just it took so long, and the
worst part is it eventually fell out and I had
to go back and they had to repierce it.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I am glad I was present that you.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Weren't there for that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I would say, although if you haven't had your balls tapped,
it can be kind of hot. I had somebody do
that to me once and I was like, oh, I
actually kind of enjoyed that, but I'm probably gonna say
I would rather wriind it.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Bulls clamped. Then my ball's tapped. Okay, there are tracks.
How do you, Matthew?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your doctor
or your therapist?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Ooh, my doctor is hot, so I would accidentally send
my news is hot.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh my god, I can't. So we go to the
same doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
We're not going to say which one, but we were
to the same doctor's office, and there is one doctor there,
or that is, there are doctors that are very true.
If there's one in particular who is very, very hot,
and I won't go to him because you not touching
nothing in my booty. Hall looking like that, sir, you
look too good.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
No, no, I like it.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
You like it. I don't. I'm not here for it.
Its so easy, Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I hate that.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I would rather send it to both their ladies, so
neither of one of them would like it. So I
would rather not send it to anyone. But if I
had to choose, if it weren't who let me choose it,
not as my actual doctor in therapist, but a doctor
or a therapist.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I would choose.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
A doctor because I feel like they'd be like, well,
it's anatomy.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
And there wouldn't be follow up conversations like let's just
like why this to me?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And I could be like, oh my godness, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I had a wart and I accidentally, I will tell
you sorry, I did accidentally send a nude. It was terrified, devastated,
like it was my new like one of my new
friends that I was working with, and I accident I
was like also messaging some boy and I was talking
to my girlfriend and I you know, like how it
is when you're when you're multitasking, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Accidentally sent a dude.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely and I accidentally sent a nude to my friend
and who is also my coworker, and like we were
just getting close.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I was like, oh I god.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
She was luckily very she already knew that I was
home sexual, was not trying to come on to her,
so she was very understanding and loving.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
But I was mortified more to fied.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And so now I'm I always double check before I
send anything. And I love the unsend feature and I
also love thank you Apple for catching up. And I
love I love the invisible ink so that like if
you you send it on. I don't know if Androids
(17:36):
had this, but I know for Apple you can send
it in like an invisible way, and so like if
you sent an accent, yes, you just be like, hey,
don't don't fucking download happen?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, fabulous you want Hey, what do I win my
unconditional love? Honey?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, so you get more of it? Okay, you can't
have enough of it, it's not fair. Oh wait, look
what time it is. It's time for messy Mail, where
we read out some of the messy patron stories and submissions.
As always, if you have prompts or games or anything
like that, or your own messy stories, you can email
them to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
(18:17):
And remember everything always remains anonymous. Baby, So we got
you now. Speaking of Matthew, tell me something messy all right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So, as you know, I'm I'm a nature boy. I
love to go hiking and camping and be outdoors.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The opposite you won't ever ever.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
For some reason unbeknownst to me, I always get really
horny when I'm out on nature, okay, really horny. And
so I was on this one camping trip and we
I went with one of my besties, my best girlfriends,
and we were by a river and we always get
naked and go skinny dipping, and we also like go
and do our own thing and spend some time apart.
And so I, being out in nature naked, got horny.
(19:05):
So I started to jerk off while I was in
the river, Okay, and not ten or fifteen seconds after
I came a whole troop of kayakers and whitewater rafters
went right past me down the river. Oh ten or
(19:26):
fifteen of them that would have absolutely seen me common
orgasm if they were but ten seconds earlier.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh my god. Well, kind of a public kink, I guess,
which is not what you're going for.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And I didn't.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I didn't. I didn't know it was public at the time.
It was a very secluded area. I thought I was safe.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But was your semen floating in the river?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Like with the semen was floating in the river and
I had to dip down underwater so they did not
see my erect penis?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Did you submerge your whole body under the water or
just you're like just the bottom half, just the bottom half?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, okay, I'm just picturing your semen floating and a
kayaker going what is that?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
They might have Was it a big load? Was it
a little load. You come a lot. It was and
in nature, yeah, oh wow, the nature of it all,
the edging of it all.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Okay, it doesn't it does it for me. There's something
about doing it while you're in the sun and fresh air.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You love that stuff. I got allergy.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So it's.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's not you watched me take allergy medicine like twice
a day. I'm doing listen for tea like because you're
not going to make me out to be crazy on
this look on my own damn show. So for context,
I have a lot of fucking allergies. It's actually quite annoying.
But I finally went to an allergist and I am
(21:00):
taking like these doses of grass and dust occasionally. So
it's like it's every morning I take like a little
dose for grass, and every night I take a little
dose for dust and do it for a few years.
I know you do it for a few years and
it's supposed to build up your immunity or like whatever.
So the point is that I'm hoping to reunite with
(21:21):
nature in like three to five years.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Okay, is that fair? Nobody?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Listeners, Do not hold your breath, Do not hold your breath.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Absolutely, I would never listen, I would never lie to you,
never hold your breath.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
But that's my hope.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
My hope is that maybe if it's more comfortable for me,
yeah and my immune system, that I will enjoy it
because I do.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love of you.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I love of you. I love seeing the sunset, you know.
I love looking at the river and the ocean. I
tend to like to look at it from like a
rooftop bar. But you know whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Love a pool side margarita, love a beachside cabana. You know,
That's how I tend to enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But I'll know I'll get in there, would you?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And then maybe we could, you know, jerk off in
nature together one day. Oh maybe it's what maybe one day,
but do not hold me to.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
A second honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Here we go, Oh my goodness. Okay, anyways, all right, the.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Next submission, Uh, fucked the woman I'm seeing six times
in twelve hours.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
She said it felt.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Like an exorcism. Now, I don't like scary movies. Is
an exorcism good?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Not historically, but in this context, I could see how
oof you just exercised some demons.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Six times in twelve hours. What's the longest you've ever
had sex?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Four? Well, I'm assuming it's not twelve hours straint, but like, no, no, no, no,
have you ever done like a twelve hour day of
like we're just fucking?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And yes I have in college my boyfriend and I
were were rather college.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
The stamina nineteen years old, that's stamina.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And there was one evening that we each we each
came six times over the course of the night.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Of the night. How was how many hours?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Was thish eight to ten?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Eight to ten hours? And y'all came six times each? Wow,
I think the most I've ever come. I would say
maybe three or four times. That's a good number, I think,
I think, I think, I actually, I think it was
three times. Was the most that, like, I had come
in one session. It was a couple hours, but you know,
(23:30):
because you gotta get it back up. But yeah, okay,
it felt like an exorcism, which you know, in this
context does sound lovely. Next question, they said, had sex
with a coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
So your co worker, maybe their co worker has a
different boss or whatever. Either way, had sex with a
(23:51):
coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So, how have you ever done that?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I have never done that. I get nervous if I
can get caught. Yeah, I'm not a big like, oh,
let's let's get caught. That's that. I get too anxious.
I get to in my head, so I can't enjoy
something like that very fully.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
That's fair. I will say. The closest that I've come
to this.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Was in I guess I could say now in college,
I was on student council. The building next door to
our building didn't have a bunch of like they were
moving a new department in there, so most of the
offices were empty, and they were moving the student council
office into that building as well. But again most of
the building was empty still, especially our floor.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But we had an.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Access code as student council members to get into the
building after hours. So Okay and my then Boothing would
go to the building at night.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I would punch in the little code and we would
go up to whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Use of power I suddenly.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
We would go to other floor I was, and we
would pick an empty office. And I will say that
if they if those carpets have not been pulled up
since two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
There's some uh uh, there's some.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
DNA, some semen on some of those carpets. So that's
the closest I've come. But I'm like you, I don't.
I don't the the anxiety of getting caught is not
fun to me. I don't mind public play, but that
if we're all in agreement that that's what is happening here,
I'm fine with that. But the idea of like doing
it somewhere I'm not supposed to, which I get and
(25:41):
I know people find hot. It puts me in my
head same, Yeah, it puts me in my head.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Ready for my messy pic.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Okay, So today I want to talk about something that
you know has been mentioned in a bunch of episodes
and I keep getting emailed about, which is polyamory.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And so you already if you've been.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Here, if you're new here, hello, But you know that
I am in a polyamorous relationship. My husband and I
have been together for nine years. We started open and
then it slowly went into polyamory. I now have a
boyfriend who have been with for.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Almost a year.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
And so because we keep getting questions, Matthew and I
are going to have this like polyamorous discussion about our
journey to polyamory, and so shall we do it?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Huh Okay, this one says, can you talk about ethical
non monogamy, mismatch and desire communication help?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I need communication tips.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I feel like the conversation needs more time and needs
nuance and needs space for that. We are talking about
polyamory now a little bit more in culture. But I
will say that Matthew and I have been together for
nine years. We've been open for what like seven seven
(27:03):
those six or seven, Yeah, and we've we've in those
six or seven years have seen the conversations go from
what the fuck are y'all doing?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
To oh your polyo?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So like we've watched culture open up around it. But
understand that there is a lot of misunderstandings about what
polyamoryan on monogamy is. There's a lot of opinions, a
lot of nasty opinions, not so nice opinions about it.
And I, you know, what I do on Instagram is
(27:33):
is what I do.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And I never want.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
To bring my partner into the chaos of what it
means for me to be public facing and especially around
this subject. And so it made the most sense to
me to talk about this with my husband as opposed
to just by myself. So we're gonna talk about it.
(27:56):
We're gonna get into it. Are you ready to get
into it?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Baby? I'm so read I love, We're.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So excited about this. Yes, we've uh. Well, let's start
by defining what polyamory is. So.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Polyamory or consensual non monogamy is the practice of having
multiple intimate relationships, whether sexual or just romantic, with the
full knowledge and consent of all parties involved. Matthew, does
that definition feel good to you?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I like that definition. I really love the emphasis on
full knowledge and consent of all of all parties. That's
very important.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Let me actually messy, key key, Matthew and I are
going to talk about polyamorne non monogamy, open relationships and
what it means to us and our relationship. But the
thing about this conversation is that other people have their
own versions of what this looks like, and so please
do not take anything that we're saying here as law.
This is just a conversation, a jumping off point, something
(28:57):
for you to use in your own research or to
use for your own experience. But it's not that this
is the way or the only way or the only
definitions of things. You'll notice that some people will say
that's not polyamory and that's not open or whatever. My
feelings about that before we dive in is don't yuck
(29:20):
somebody's yem and stop gatekeeping. I think a lot of
times people in oppressed groups or marginalized groups and this
has this could be about polyamory, this could be about race,
this could be about gender sexual orientation will then begin
to gate keep themselves and it's like, no, we should
all just be trying to get free. And so whatever
works for you. As I always say, as long as
(29:41):
you're not hurting yourself or anybody else, go off. So
we started our relationship as open, and I would define open.
The difference for me between open and Polly is that
the openness was not about intimate relationships. The openness was
just about being able to have sex with other people.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Would you agree?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah? And in fact, when we first opened so we
had been monogamous for about two years or so, and
the first time we opened it, we actually had a
rule of no penetrative sex.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
So it was just engaging sexually with others, but we
weren't penetrating, and then eventually we talked about penetrating and
how do we do that safely?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And yeah, it was we were like, you know, it's
like if you're out at a club and you meet
a hottie and you want to make out with them
and you want to go into the bathroom and give
them a blow job, like go off, Like I'm not
pressed about that, but yeah, it did start.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And I think the beauty if.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You bring up a point that it didn't start with
penetrative is that I think sometimes when people want to
open their relationships or move into polly, they want to
go to ten right away, right And it's very fine
for you to start at one or two, which is like, hey,
we're going to open this, but there are a couple
rules here, a bunch of rules here, because you're also
(31:02):
still building trust inside of the relationship and wanting space
for failure to happen so that you can learn and
process and grow together before expanding it even further. If
it's all, if it's a free for all, if you
are not yourself, if you don't identify as a polyamorous
person or a non monogamous person. Then to start at
(31:25):
attend is not necessarily the.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I want to.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Say, the safest emotionally safe is really what we're talking about,
because we've been indoctrinated in the monogamous culture. So why
would you suddenly know how to do non monogamy or
polyamory when you haven't seen it. So we started open,
and then this is how I remember it kind of expanding,
(31:49):
was that we were open and correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I think Matthew was having a good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Time and I was having a harder time because what
I realized and what I learned through this whole journey
and through this polyamor's journey, was that hookups.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Didn't do it for me.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
That I had a harder time just like meeting somebody
and hooking up and then being done with it. Even
as we moved into penetrative or the rules of penetration
being allowed, I just had a hard time. I needed connection,
I needed intimacy. And so we gradually started to I think,
(32:32):
work our way into expanding the definition of what open.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Could look like.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
We're not I don't think we were quite at Polly.
So it wasn't quite like, oh, you're in a relationships
with other people. It was just the ability to have
an emotional connection was introduced, that this could be really
your friend, a little you know, a little your friend
with benefits, something that you have an emotional connection to.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Would you agree?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I agree, Yeah, just like some consistency. And and I
even found that with myself that I like, if I
was with somebody that I liked, I liked what the
sex was like, I liked them as a person, I
wanted to keep going back. I wanted to maintain that
connection and build on that connection. Yes, And so I
think I think I think we both just naturally are
(33:20):
very emotional relational people, and so we kind of in
our own ways gravitated towards that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, because sometimes with open relationships, I think I think
this was our original rule.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It was kind of like a one and done.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yes, like you couldn't do repeats, which is I think
a normal rule that some people have when they open
the relationship because you're trying to avoid the emotional.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Attachment, the emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, another rule of ours, which is still a rule
which I would say, Now we have a lot less
rules in our in our poly life, but we don't
fuck each other's friends is a is a big rule.
So listen, we're in Los Angeles, and so you have
to really define what a friend is, because I do,
(34:04):
because because like he's like, I could meet somebody and
math you could meet somebody and we could, oh we're cool,
but they're not friends enough yet, and so we don't
know that either of us has a relationship with that person.
So we were like, if that happens, and like, you
fuck that person and then you find out after that
it's somebody that I'm a friend of, no problem whatever.
But if we knowingly know that this is, you know,
(34:26):
one of our friends, then it's off the table.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Off the table, yeah, and not you.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Know, listen, I'm not saying that you can't that it
can't work for another relationship, but for us, it felt
like this is a this is a guard rail that
feels important so that we can preserve friendships, yes, preserve
our individual friendships, not get anything muddy or complicated. So
it was a rule that there's no sex with each
other's friends. And then when do you think that we
(34:54):
like fully stepped into the poll of it all, Like
how many years were we in?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I feel like I feel like it was around three
years ago. Maybe I think we had been open for
three years, give or take.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I think what happened was, yes, you're right, because three
years ago I had met somebody and I was.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Yes, yeah, I was seeing someone very consistently same thing.
It was originally very very sex based, but we just
sort of hit it off. Our personalities really went well together,
we developed feelings for each other, and I think that
was the first time that I was like, oh, okay,
this is different than being in an open relationship. And
(35:45):
so I remember you and I having a conversation over
dinner one night, like how do we feel about the
idea of bringing relationship into our nominogamy? What would that
look like? What would that feel like? And I think
we were able to just have a really open, curious
conversation about like, what's the intention behind that, where could
(36:09):
that go? What is each of our individual capacity to
handle that? And it sort of just came, as it
has through most of this journey, that we were both
very on the same page, very like, yeah, I love
connecting deeply to someone, I love getting to know someone.
I love being able to give part of myself to someone.
And that doesn't mean that you my partner is going
(36:31):
to get any less of me.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
You saying that makes me you know when this person
asks for tips, it's communic communication. It's like the number
one thing. The only way this works is if you
and your partner are willing to be radically transparent with
each other. And you know, one of the things that
it's also going to come up and we can talk
about this is jealousy. That's a big question that comes
(36:54):
up around you know, non monogamy, open relationships, and polymory.
But you have nothing if you are not able to
communicate and if anything being you know, open and non
monogamous and Polly has forced us to get better at
communicating and to be able to say, oh, this makes
me feel some type of way and what is that?
(37:17):
Or I need this from you, or like you can't
guess there's too many emotions happening. And the other reason
the communication is important is because Matthew and I in
our marriage, we're married to each other, we're tied to
each other, and so there's a solidness there. But if
we are having relationships outside, that person may not have
(37:40):
a partner. They might they may not, but there they
don't have the same quote unquote safety net. And so
I do think what I've learned in this journey is
that it's our responsibility as the coupled to also be
able to show up for them, not that we have
to be there there like their husband, but that we're
being sensitive to their needs and their heart and preempting
(38:04):
things right and asking the questions because I think sometimes
feedback that I've gotten has been people afraid of asking
for what they need because they don't want to overstep
the marriage, if that makes sense. And so I've learned that, oh,
what that ends up doing is that I'm not able
to meet your needs because I don't know that what
(38:26):
you're asking for. And so I've learned that as the
coupled partner that I have to ask my you know,
single partner more questions, more directly, what do you need?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Are you feeling okay? You said this thing? Is that
really what you mean? Do you need?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Like you having to not just be honest when someone
asks the question, but to ask the questions.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Does that make sense? Oh? Yes, absolutely, to be willing
to say are you jealous in this moment? Or how
did that make you feel? Or what do you need?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Like being able to ask those questions is as equally
as important as answering a question.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Honestly, Yeah, I found it incredibly helpful to be able
to relay to my other partners just how solid you
and I are and how much we communicate, so that
they don't have that fear of like, oh gosh, like
am I coming in and going to interrupt something? Am
I going to cause drama? And so really being able
to put them at ease, like you do not need
(39:25):
to worry about that, like we have this figured out.
If something comes up, we talk about it. What's really
important is that you feel safe and comfortable being able
to share.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I also think it's worth to note here, you know,
we opened and entered polyamory from a place of like
how do we add how do we have abundance? We
love each other, and how do we love more? Yeah,
we didn't get into it as like a oh, we're
not doing so well. Let's see if we try this
out and that will make things better. I think that
(39:57):
that can be successful. Maybe that is a thing that
can and help your relationship. But I feel like if
you're starting with those cracks in the relationship where things
aren't one hundred percent sturdy. Then there it's more likely
someone could come in and interrupt it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
But yeah, yeah, I love that that it's it's something
that you're doing as to add to the relationship, not
fix the relationship. Let's talk about sleepovers. So when we started,
you know, I have a so I have a boyfriend now,
which hopefully when this comes out, I will still have
a boyfriend in so many months, but as of today
when we're recording this, I have a boyfriend. And so
(40:34):
sleepovers started to become part of the equation because usually
we just like didn't we didn't do sleepovers. We knew
that I think we knew that like a sleepover if
we kept being polly and kept developing the relationships that
would need to come on the table. But for us,
we originally were feeling like, no sleepovers if both of
us are in the same city. So if you're in
(40:55):
a different city, if I'm out of town, you're out
of town, like go off to your thing. But if
we're both within the same city, let's not. But now
that I have a boyfriend, it came up this, you know, sleepovers.
And so I give a lot of credit to my husband,
to Matthew, because we had the conversation, and I was like,
I know this is something that this was, this was
(41:16):
the thing that.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Made you uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
And I would say Matthew had the rule that we
were respecting, which is no sleepovers. But in wanting to
you know, expand our our situation and and and take
into consideration this new heart that is part of our relationship.
And when I say part of our relationship, I don't
mean like in a threuple, it's my boyfriend. Matthew does not.
(41:40):
Matthew is the metamure, which I should define as well,
which is your your partner's partner. That's what a meta mirrors.
So we wanted to you know, expand or the rules,
and so it was really about testing it. And so
I think I came to you and said, I want
(42:01):
to talk about sleepovers. Yes, I think that you know,
I know that my part my boyfriend wants to do
a sleepover and I would like to sleepover. But I
know this makes you uncomfortable. So what like, let's talk
about what makes you uncomfortable. And where we landed was
let's try it. And the reason I think this is
so important is because one of my dear friends from college,
(42:25):
she is married to a man, and her husband has
a girlfriend, and during the pandemic, all three of them
moved in together. And my friend, she said to me,
when I first met the girlfriend and had the girl
and the idea of the girlfriend living in the house,
(42:45):
I thought I was supposed to be jealous. I was
taught that I was supposed to be jealous. But what
ended up happening was I as somebody in the house
doing the dishes and cooking.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The food, and like, you know what I didn't want
to do with my husband.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Like there she was to deal with it, and she
was like I felt so free, and it was like, oh,
sometimes you think you're supposed to be jealous, and so
you're preempting the jealousy as opposed to if you actually
do it and experience it, you're like, oh, I actually
didn't feel anything at all. And so our strategy for
the sleepover was one give advance notice, so here's the
(43:20):
day that the sleepover.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Is gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
And then the deal was when I came back, we
would process and be like, how was that?
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Did it feel? Weird?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
What you know, if you hated it or not hated it,
And so that's what we did, and when we when
I came home, what was your experience?
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Like? It was fine, Like, I know, I caught myself
being okay, like what are my actual feelings here? Right?
Like kind of like what you were saying. There was
a moment of like, huh, I could easily lean into
the like yeah, you're gone and I'm alone and this
doesn't feel good. But that wasn't authentic. That's not what
I was feeling. I was actually like completely fine with it.
(44:00):
And I think part of the reason I was fine
with it is because I had a say in it,
had I had a decision power in it. And because
of that, because you allowed me to have agency and
acknowledge that this is going to impact me and affect
me so I do play a role in whether it
happens or not. Allowed me to be like great, cool,
I'm I am saying I'm okay with this, And if
(44:22):
I do have feelings, then it's not like I'm going
to resent you or be mad at you because you
tried to make this thing happen. But it was like no,
I was a willing participant.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, that's so important one that you get to have
your feelings and that inside of this like that no
one's saying you're not gonna get jealous, you get to
be jealous. I think it's like, well, how do we
communicate about that jealousy and finding out if that jealousy
is even actually there sometimes, but I love the idea
of giving you agency, like don't just do something and
(44:54):
then tell your partner later and hope Like it's like,
let's talk about the thing, and then we were both
participating in it, and we can find a way to
participate in a way that keeps us both emotionally safe.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I think the biggest thing I've gained is knowing a
part of myself, part of my identity that I didn't
know before, which is just how much I love love,
And like, I've always sort of had that idea in
my head but never really had the language or the
ability to express it in this way. But I just
(45:29):
love loving people any way, shape or form, and being
polyamorous has allowed me to really expand what love looks
like and really own the fact that I have such
a reserve of it to give, and being able to
give it to people, to different people in different ways
has been so fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I think I've always been Polly but didn't have the
language for it, because when I look back at the
relationships before you and I got together, and even when
you and I first got together, I was never able
to see the finish line. I was never able to
see myself old with that same person on the rocking chair,
like the thing you're taught, which is like we're gonna
be together forever, We're gonna grow old together. I could
(46:09):
never see, like the pressure of that always felt crushing.
But I did not get in relationships because I couldn't
see it. I was like, well, I'll get there when
I get there. And so you know, when we first
got together, Matthew actually said out loud like I'm not
into non monogamy.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I don't want to have an open relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Matthew was also the one two years later to bring
non monogamy to the table, and both times I was
very blase about it. The first time I was like, okay,
like I'm not gonna fight for non monogamy because I
don't really know what that means either, like I should
want to be with you forever anyway.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
And then when he did.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Bring it to the table, I was like okay, yeah,
like I have no I've actually never had an issue
with non monogamy. For me, it's always been about or
even cheating, quote unquote. It's always been about the lying.
It's never about the person fucking somebody else. I've never like,
that's like it's the lack of jealousy that I have
has never been about, you know, the person fucking somebody
(47:03):
else and not me. It was always the lying about it.
So it was like, as long as we're open with
each other about what we're doing, I'm fine. I'm great
with it. What I think I've gained though from polyamory,
which I wasn't expecting, Apart from I think stepping into
a piece of myself that's always kind of existed, and
this expansion of love is learning in our relationship. We
(47:26):
can only do so much for each other. Yeah, just
with our different backgrounds, our different identities, There's only so
much that you and I can connect with. And this,
I think for me, what I would say is a
false idea that your partner should be responsible for all
of your needs and should be able to connect with
you on everything. It's like, no, there's a reason why
you don't have like only one friend, right, you have
(47:47):
a couple of friends, because each of them brings I
think somebody I had heard somebody talk about as a mosaic,
like stop wanting your friends to be perfect. They're a
mosaic of your life. And so every person doesn't have
to fulfill every need. They fulfill their buckets. I think
the same is true in a romantic relationship. It's like
this one partner doesn't have to be responsible for me
(48:09):
feeling all the things, for me getting all my cups filled.
There are other partners that can be part of that.
One of the things that I always talk about is,
and we'll go back to it, hiking. I don't bin
at a camp. Hiking and camping is incredibly important to Matthew.
It's not something I do instead of it's.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Not something I do period period.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
But instead of like forcing me to go on the
hike or the camp that my New Yorker ass doesn't
want to go on, Matthew has another partner who does
that with them. I'm obsessed, Like I can listen to
music all the way the house down, Matthew is not.
He's not like, oh, I'm going to walk around the
house with some new music. So like having a partner
that I can relate with that on is really beautiful,
and it just frees up the pressure off of our
(48:53):
marriage and allows our marriage to be to me, a
very soft landing space because all the needs don't have
to be filled here. So our relationship for me gets
to be so safe and so soft because I'm not
responsible for everything and you're not responsible for my everything.
(49:14):
And we learned so much from these other partners that
also informs this marriage as well, and so that's what
I think, that's what I've gained, is just being able
to know more of myself, being able to heal parts
of myself, being able to activate parts of myself.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
That I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
We're dormant, which has nothing to do with this marriage,
because again, like your marriage, that one relationship can only
do so much, So it's just it's about an expansion.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
The other benefit is that you get to really own
that you have lots of needs and all of those
needs deserve to be met. I think a lot of
times people in relationships run into it like, oh, my partner,
like my partner doesn't like hiking camping. Therefore I'm going
to just reject and deny this need. I'm not going
to go hiking. I'm not going to go camping because
(50:07):
my partner doesn't want to. I don't want to force
them to do it, so I'm just going to give
it up. But instead it's like no, okay, So I'm
not going to get this with Brandon, but I am
still going to get this because it is still in
need that matters.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yes, And by the way, this is not like a
This is not a PSA for poly like if monogamy
works for you, beautiful, this conversation is really like, oh,
there's other ways of being in relationship, and this is
what we've gained from it. I want I want to
paint a picture of this isn't you know the myths
that we see where like everyone's jealous or everyone you know,
(50:40):
y'all just trying to fuck each other. I think I
saw a myth was like you just want to pass
less taxes and like, yeah, what do we like, get
out of here?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Get out of here? We could?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, So my love The last question, which I think
you know to take it back to the to the submission,
which is what are your tips for a new couple
wanting to explore non monogamy but having mismatched desires.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Ooh yeah, I would say take it slow and really
understand that although your desires may be different, they both
are valid, they both matter whatever they are, And I
think instead of falling into the trap of binary thinking,
look for creative solutions, like it doesn't have to be
(51:25):
we do this or we do that. What's a third
or fourth, a fifth way that you can go about
trying to do this so that everyone can feel safe,
everyone can get their needs met. And maybe that does
mean you move a little slower than one partner wants
to or a little faster than one partner wants to.
But as long as you're continuously checking in and saying, okay,
how are we at. What's our barometer meter right now?
(51:47):
You'll get to where you want to get to.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
I think the key word in your question is explore. Right,
It's an exploration, and you're doing it together. This is
your teammates, even if we have mismatched desires, like this
is my teammate and we're exploring this thing.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
It's not going to be perfect. In fact, it's going
to be.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Messy, messy, So like knowing that ahead of time and
allowing the space for failure, for imperfection, for you to
get it wrong, as long as you know, oh, this
is how we talk about it, how we process, and
how we move forward, and you might actually find it
requires such radical conversations that you might actually find that
(52:26):
there are a lot of places where your desires do
match and you can start from there. The mismatch is fine,
it's like, it's good to know what both of you
don't agree on. But in that conversation you'll also find
well where is the middle ground? Yes, And as Matthew said,
you know, starts slow. So we start with the tiny
little thing, which is we both agree to threesome, so
we both agree that kissing is fine, or we both
(52:48):
agree when we're out of like the small thing, and
then you can as that feels good and that feels solid,
then you can expand from there. I can't impress enough
that Matthew and I have been together for nine years.
We've been h Nomena Goes for six or seven years,
so it's been where we were six seven years ago
is not where we are now. And it was a
very slow build and I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And I think the part of that in that build
is also to recognize what you're doing individually is you're
dismantling your internalized heteronormativity. You were given all of these
rules about what it means to be in relationship and
what was a trusting, loving relationship, and what you're doing
and opening up is you're interrogating that and you're asking
(53:34):
different questions. How can we still maintain trust and love
but not doing it the way we've been taught And
that takes time.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
That takes time. Matthew, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (53:44):
I love for having me my love. I love you, believe.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
I'll talk to you Okay, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I love my husband. He's the best and I'm so
glad that he was here today. You already know we're
hoes here, but hose with heart.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
So before we.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Get out of here, let me speak to yours, my love.
No matter what the whole point of this show is
to create a safe space for everyone, whatever your background,
whatever your identity, whatever your relationship to sex is, whatever
your relationship to yourself is. I want you to feel safe,
and so I want to remind you that you're accepted
(54:29):
and you're loved here, and that if you don't have
a community right now, if you don't have a place
where you feel like you can really be yourself. I
hope that this will be a bridge until you find
that irl community. But no matter what, if you take
nothing away, just remember that you matter, that your pleasure matters,
(54:50):
that your boundaries matter, that your heart matters, that your
life matters, that you my love, you matter.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
This is one of them when you wonder what your
role is in this country and what your future is
in it. How precise are you're going to reconcile yourself
to your situation here and how you are going to communicate.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
That you are here.
Speaker 4 (55:21):
I'm terrified at the morrow abbathey, the death of the heart,
which is happening in my country.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
So that is the audio of James Baldwin, which I
think perfectly sums up how I'm feeling, and I imagine
how you're feeling as well, which is like, what what.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Do we do?
Speaker 1 (55:44):
And I don't know if right now is the time?
You know, this is as I'm recording this, This is Wednesday.
You're gonna hear this on Thursday or whenever you end
up listening to it. So it feels a little too
soon to know exactly what the moves are. But I
will just share my experience. Of course I am sad.
(56:07):
Of course I am shocked. I'm not surprised, though. It
was so interesting talking to my white friends this morning
versus talking to my black friends this morning. My white
friends seemed a little more surprised than my black friends,
which I think is for obvious reasons. To live in
(56:30):
this country as a black person, as a queer person,
as a woman, as a trans person, is non binary,
and then to live at the intersections of all of
those things. I think you are aware. I know I
am aware of where I live. The first time that
(56:51):
this presidency happened was shocking, obviously, coming off the heels
of an Obama to two terms of Obama. So, like
you know, we were in our little bubble, and so
when we heard the news that Hillary had lost, I
(57:11):
swear like gobsmacked, shocked and really had me go, in
what ways am I not connected to my country? And
what ways am I not connected to the other views
that are out there? How have I been in this
bubble this time around? I was bracing myself because it
(57:35):
felt like, well, if we're if we're coming back around,
and this man has an opportunity to run again. That
tells me a lot already. Do I have faith that
this country would elect a woman or a black woman?
It fucking should. But I'm raised by two dark skinned,
(57:59):
immigrant black women, and so you know, I've been up
close as to how this country navigates black women. I
am non binary, and so I really play, like not play,
but I moved through masculinity and femininity. You know, I
(58:20):
was at the gym this morning in a sports spra
and coachy shorts. I'm very very aware of how people
treat femininity and how people respond and react to it.
So again, none of it is surprising, but it is
very sobering and sad, and there's grief and there's anger.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Rage.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
Actually, that rage and that sadness they really play together.
So what does that mean? Because you know, I don't
want to, Like at the gym on Monday and a
messy patron, a fellow hoe walked up to me as
(59:08):
I was walking towards the shower and he was like,
how are you feeling about tomorrow? And I was like,
I don't know, I voted and all that, and he
looked so devastated. He was white, because like I was
hoping that you would be you know, I guess more energetic,
more affirming, and I just wasn't. And I felt bad
(59:33):
about it because I was like, oh, I feel bad
that I'm.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Not more optimistic. Listen. I wasn't like, oh, it's not
gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (59:41):
But I was just like, I I'm not letting my
I'm not hanging my hopes on this. I'm not going
to get my hopes up for this. I'm gonna do
what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna say what I
need to say. I'm gonna have the conversations I need
to have. I'm gonna show up how I need to
show up. But I'm also there's a lot of evidence
(01:00:04):
here of where I live and this what we are
up against. And so I was like, I don't know.
And now that it's happened, there are a couple things
that I feel. One it's not a relief, but it's like, Okay,
the thing happened. The thing that we were afraid of
(01:00:26):
happening happened, So now I don't need to worry about
it happening or not. I don't know if there's a
piece in that. It's like it happened, and here we
are and we're awake and we have to move forward,
and so how do we do that? The other piece
I think that came up for me is how do
(01:00:50):
I protect the people that I love most? That we
are more vulnerable than we ever been, y'all. This is
I really came into this booth like, oh, I don't
know what I'm gonna say about this, but I know
I need to say something.
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
So forgive me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
As I'm processing, you're like literally hearing me process this
with you out loud in real time, and so it's
not as articulate as I would like it to be,
because this is not an articulate time. It's a really imperfect, messy, sloppy,
fucked up time. And so this thing that I'm sharing
also feels that way too. So let me pivot in
(01:01:34):
this way, which is I feel very protective. I feel
protective of you. I feel protective of my chosen family.
I feel protective of my blood relatives. I feel protective
of my friends, my community. One thing I do know is,
no matter what we are in this together, I know
that my ancestors have navigated far darker times and have
(01:02:01):
made a way for me to even be sitting here
talking to you. I know that the work that we
do together is even more important. Us Being able to
talk about our bodies, talk about sex, talk about intersectionality,
talk about queerness, talk about women's pleasure, queer folks pleasure
(01:02:21):
is even more important. I know that you know. Saying
that I'm pro love and pro choice and pro black
and protrans and pro queer and pro hoe is even
more important.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
I want you to feel whatever you're feeling, however the
sadness comes, however the grief comes, feel it, but also
know that you're not alone. That we are in this together.
And that's not just some like spiritual bullshit that people
say to you know, it's not thoughts and prayers like
there is work.
Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
To be done. That is clear.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
We are in a country that is divided, that is clear.
But there are also vulnerable people in those red states.
There are also queer folks and women and people who
need gender affirming healthcare, who need the right to abortion access,
who deserve to have African American studies, who deserve people
(01:03:23):
to say gay and queer and trans and non binary.
There are people that need that and deserve that access.
And so for those of us who are in spaces
where we feel safe enough. I do believe it is
our responsibility to feel our feels, but to also continue
(01:03:46):
to show up, especially for those who aren't able to.
Right now, think about kids, I think about queer kids.
I was thinking about oh, thinking about how Paris is burning.
That documentary which if you haven't seen it, highly recommend,
(01:04:08):
and it documents black and brown folks in New York
City in the ball culture, and I was thinking about
how when that was being filmed, I was little baby,
not even thinking about queerness, but that those people who
were so unapologetically themselves and found community with each other
(01:04:33):
and were being spit on and harassed and killed still
showed up as themselves, still fought to be themselves, and
because of them, I'm able to exist.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
And so it is.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
I can't even imagine not continuing to show up for
the next generation that's coming up underneath me, underneath us.
I hope you got something out of this, which is
that this is devastating, and this is awful and it's tragic,
and we need to acknowledge that it's all those things.
Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
But you're not alone. I'm not alone. We will make away.
Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
And I love you more than ever, more than ever,
it is important for me to say that I love you,
I see you. You matter, who you are, your identity,
how you identify it matters. It fucking matters. Do not
let some election results persuade you into thinking otherwise. You matter,
(01:05:39):
and I love you? All right, homekeeping and then I'm
out of here. You can find Matthew on Instagram at
Matthew Underscore Raymond eighteen or his website Matthew Raymondtherapy dot com.
You can find me on Instagram at Brandon Kyle Goodman.
You can also join the community on substack, the Messy
(01:06:03):
Monday Substack. When you subscribe, you'll get bonus episodes from
the show, essays inspired by the podcast, recommendations, and more.
I believe that's Brandon called Goodman dot substack dot com,
but if you go on my Instagram or my website
you'll find it also.
Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
I want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Send your topic ideas, your submissions, your stories, recommendations, anything
to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
You can also call.
Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Us at six six nine sixty nine messy. Yeah, bitch,
I gotta fucking call line.
Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
That's six six nine six nine six three seven seven
nine for you hos who grew up after Landlines, and
make sure you check the show notes because that's where
we will have links for the resources, uh you know,
some extra material, some extra things for you to dive
into based off the conversations we've been having today. And rate,
review and share this podcast with all of your HOE
(01:06:58):
or aspiring HOE friends. You know, reading the podcast really
helps us get to new listeners and really.
Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Helps the success of the show. And we want the
show to be successful. Baby.
Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
And if y'all find out how to pay less taxes
being polyamorous, please let me know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Please, I'm down. I'm down to save some coin.
Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I'm always doing much taxes, but I'm down to save
some coin, honey, So let me know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Let me know, and don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
We have our Merch Drop, Our Messy Merch Drop, currently
running until November tenth at Brandon Call Goodman dot com
backslash merch.
Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
That's it, that's.
Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Everything, get us everything until we meet again. Ask about
the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Make sure they eat.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
The kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation or
sucation communication.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
And in case you haven't heard it, yet today you
are so deeply loved. I love you.
Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, the episode to someone
else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was
executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly.
Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app
or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.
I also, I don't shoot massive loads. My best friend
and I talk about this. How do you don't say
something like that? And you know what we do here
destroy shame around sex by talking about sex.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Now, let me tell you something messy.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Well, before we jump into the episode, I do want
to acknowledge for my American host that this is quite
the week, And of course I have thoughts. You know,
I consider the show comedy forward and educational. But you know,
we're here talking about sex and bodies and I am
a black, gay, non binary, first generation American like so
(00:43):
the show is inherently political. So if you are interested,
I will talk more about my feelings on what has
happened this week at the end of the episode, after
Hose with Heart. But for now, let me tell you
a messy story. The first time I had penetrative sex
was in college. I was eighteen, eighteen years old freshman
(01:06):
at NYU. I lived in the dorm. Shout out to
anyone at NYU right now, who's been to NYU Third North.
It is on Third Avenue Downtown. But the thing about
the building is it has three towers, so it was
like the north tower of the South tower. And I
think the East Tower. I'm pretty sure I was in
the North Tower. But there was this boy. There's always
(01:28):
a fucking boy. My god, there's this boy. And what
shall we name him?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We'll name him.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Let's name him Leslie. I love, I loved the name
Leslie on a boy beautiful. His name is Leslie. So
Leslie was in musical theater. So I was a drama major.
Leslie was a musical theater major. And the dorms weren't
broken up by your departments, just it was a freshman dorm.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But this fucking cuty lived in the East Tower. Yes,
across the courtyard.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now here's the thing about the musical theater boys that
I have to acknowledge. Is to me, they were so
fucking hot. I don't I don't know what it was.
You knew the musical theater boys were gay. Like everybody
else was like trying to, you know, be masculine. How
you in theater school trying to be masculine is a
mystery to me. But everybody was trying to be masculine,
(02:22):
you know, trying to be the leading man. But the
musical theater boys they were queens, honey, Okay, they were
wearing their skinny dreams from American apparel, their fucking big
boushie scarves. Everybody had a purse in the in the
in the gay part of the arm, which is, you know,
on the elbow. That's not that I like to wear
(02:44):
my bag, my little bag on the elbow, the gay
part of the arm.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So this Leslie, Leslie had to be I'm six to one.
Leslie had to be like six.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Two, lean body and like could do a motherfucking high
kick in his sleep. And oh a jawline a jaw
oh oh oh drool.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I really wanted to drool all over him.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So one night I went out with him and two
or three other friends and we went to this bar
that was called Asian Pub, which I hope it's closed down.
Terrible name for a pub because no one Asian worked
there or ran up. But it was called Asian.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Pub and they would give.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Us eighteen year old's alcohol. That's all I went because
they never they never carded, so I was always drinking
a mohito. I was always drinking a margarita, a pina colada.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
They had me lit up at that place.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So I'm at this table with Leslie and three other
people and we are we're drinking and we're eating at
Mamee and we're we're Keith King and we're laughing, and uh,
Leslie and I have a moment where we lock eyes
and he gives me this look that y'all know.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
To look I'm talking about is that.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It's that one look where you're like, oh, okay, you're
about to mess me the fuck up. Okay, all right,
all right, I'm gonna look back. So I gave him
a little look back.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And then as the night came to an end, everyone
was going back to their dorms. Leslie and I live
in the same dorm as you can imagine. So we
walked ourselves back up third half into the dorm and
I was gonna go to the North tower.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
He was gonna go to.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
The East tower across the courtyard. But you know, he
was like, do you wanna like watch a movie? I
think he's asked me to watch a movie or something
like that. And I said, absolutely, of course, I would
love to watch a movie with you, less thick, I
would love to what let's go. So I went up
to the East tower. He had a roommate, I don't remember.
(04:46):
The room is home at the time either way. We
go into Leslie's bedroom and he has posters of the
shows he's been in, and one of them was this
musical Anything Goes, and Anything Goes was my senior year musical,
and both of us have.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Played the lead.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I had no business playing I'm not a singer like that,
but they cast me seniors, so we both were.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We both played the straight male lead in this musical.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And now here we are on his twin bed underneath
the poster about to do something. By the way, this
is my first time having sex. Okay, so like I
haven't done it yet, and I definitely haven't had queer sex.
But my all I know about sex that my dick
goes into a hole.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's all. That's as far as I've gotten.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay, Leslie and I are, you know, on the bed
we're making out or whatnot. And then Leslie asks, are
you a top or a bottom? These musical theater girlies,
they they knew more than I did. Now when he
said top or bottom, I didn't understand. Now if you
don't know what that means. So top, let's just say
top is the penetrator and the bottom is the receiver.
(05:55):
So he asked you top or bottom. I didn't understand
the no one gave gave me my gay guidebook, no one,
no one gave me the glossary yet, So he said
top or bottom. I'm not thinking, you know, receive or give.
I'm just thinking, oh, like, do you want me to
be on top of you? Or would you like me
to be on my back? And I'm on the bottom.
(06:16):
I'm thinking position. I'm thinking, you know, physical position, not
sexual position. So I say bottom because I don't know.
I've seen like poorn, like you know, the girl gets
on top of the guy and rides the deck and
I was like, oh, that's.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
That looks like fun. So yeah, I'm a bottom.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So he said, okay, cool Ben, and then he pulls
out a condom and his dick, very very hard dick.
By the way, the dick is is a I might
as well have been a coke can. It was a
coke bottle. It was thick, it was girfy, and I
was like, oh my god, look at that big fucking dick.
But I'm not worried about it until after I say bottom.
(06:54):
He starts putting the condom on that coke can, and I.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Was like, oh, that's interesting. Would he need to put
a condom on, but okay.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And then suddenly my legs are lifted and he's putting
lube on his dick, and then he is promptly entering me. Yeah,
it was everything that, everything that you think happened, everything
that you feel would happen when a coke can enters you,
and it happened to me. I will say I didn't
(07:24):
I didn't squeal or anything, but internally I was screw
There was a coke can in my guts. I for
the for the first time, I was I was undone,
I was unhinged, unwell.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
He fucked me. Uh and then you pulled out, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
We we exchanged some niceties and I took my ass,
my sore ass.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I hobbled, I hobbled the itch.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I hobbled to the elevator, hobbled down across the courtyard,
hobbled my fucking North Tower elevator got my bit. I
have never Ooh, I'm feeling the pain right now. And
I got to my room and my roommate asked me
why I was walking funny, and I think I told
(08:14):
him like I pulled a muscle in glass or some shit.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And that was that was it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
That was my first time having sex, and I learned
the difference between the top and a bottom.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Now I love bottoming. But if you are not a
bottom and a dick is suddenly inside you, it's surprising.
It's shocking.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Baby, it'll gag you something serious. It'll gag you something serious. Okay,
that's my messy story. Baby, you know what that means.
It's time for a guest. Now, while they get situated,
we'll get our messy key. Key started with a whole
manifest stoe. Oh my God, repeated after me aloud or
(08:54):
in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame,
the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex
is not just about penetration, The audacity to advocate for
my pleasure and my boundaries. The strength to not call
my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or buck bay,
for it is better for me to masturbate by myself
(09:14):
in peace than to let someone.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Play in my motherfucking face.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Let the community say, oh, helujah. Matthew Raymond pronounced he
him his graduated from Boston University in twenty ten and
Boston College in twenty twelve. In twenty fifteen, while living
in New York, he struck gold when he messaged a talented,
funny and stunning young thing on tender. Matthew asked the
(09:40):
tender bombshell out on a date in hopes just to
get some ass because he already had a one way
ticket to move to Oakland, California in the fall. But
that night, instead of falling into some ass.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
He fell in love.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
His life was changed for the better forever, really elevated, expanded,
and gave him a reason to get up in the morning.
After a year of long distance, Matthew moved in with
his tinderboo. Two years after that, Matthew had the wisdom
to want to marry the gorgeous tender miracle in a
plan proposal where he and his now spouse took turns
(10:17):
getting on their knee and asking the other for their
hand in marriage. Matthew, this is a wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Bio wonder who wrote it?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Matthew says it was the best decision of his life.
I don't know who wrote this, but I thought it
was you. Since getting married, Matthew has said that his
partner is the light of his life, the wind between
his ass cheeks, the missing tape measure of his toolbox.
Even with two master's degrees, Peace Corps and a successful
(10:44):
teaching career ed averging new career as a therapist, Matthew says.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That marrying that beauty from Tinder is still his greatest accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Messy patrons, please help me. Welcome my husband.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Matthew Raymond. Mate, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
My goodness, thank you. I didn't realize we were doing
a fantasy podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Read. Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
One thing you also to know about husband is that
he has lived with me. We've been together for nine
years now, and he's learned how to throw shade and
it's it's quite good.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But I will fight you, honey.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Okay, I know I'm in the other room, so.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Don't get too reckless.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Anyways, to a few messykiki guidelines for you listening and
for you Matthew, because you know, we like to have
we like to have rules around conversations that keep everyone
safe so we can have really great conversations. So one
things get to be unprocessed too. Any thoughts or opinions
shared have the right to evolve, shift or change today, tomorrow,
(11:48):
ten years from now. And if during the kiki something
feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe
word foosball, which gives a chance to pause and address
or pit it accordingly.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Sound good, heavy, sounds wonderful.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Matthew, I would like to start by playing a.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Game, or we'll call it a lube breaker, because obviously.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Ooh, I'm down, let's do it, gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So do you know how to play? What you rather?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's like, I'll give you two options and you tell
me which one you rather. Okay, great, just wonderful.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
You've went around the block.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Even around the block you were in like grade school
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, So would you rather never suck dick again or
never eat ass again?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
WHOA?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I know this is a terrible, terrible decision to me.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I know, I know it's a hard one to start with.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Okay, well, I think I'd probably have to go with
never eat ass again, because there's just something about a
dick in my mouth filling it. Huh, That like just
satisfies so many cravings.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I don't know if I could live without that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I don't know what I would. I would probably also say, God,
I hate to never eat ass again.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
But I do love I do love it so much wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, you know, it's why I have lollipops.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
You know, I walk around the house lollipops because I
like having something in my mouth.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Okay, so I guess we're both. We're both saying.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Oh my god, I feel like flashbacks to fucking middle
schools being teased and bully but now we reclaim it cocksuckers. Yes, okay,
So would you rather have your nipples clamped or your
balls tapped?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I'm I'm I'm gagging because I'm in pain just thinking
about either of those. I don't like pain. I'm very
pain averse. I'm very sensitive, little baby. We're very sensitive,
little baby. I would say, I would rather have my
balls tap my nipples. No, no, no, don't come near
my nipples with the clamp.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Absolutely, Okay, Well, so I have my nipples pierced. I
were there, you okay, he.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Was there, and I had to leave the room.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I did get it, fierce, We got it, per On.
Was it Christmas Eve? It was Christmas Eve?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Right, Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
It was Christmas. It was a.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Holiday, and we were spending the holiday in l A.
And I have been wanting to get my nipples pierced
since I was like in college forever. I've talked about
it but been so scared and then I don't, you know,
whatever the trauma of the holidays are.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I kind of woke up and was like, I want
to get.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
A pierced Matthew, and so we took a family trip
to the Nipple Shop, a piercing place adornments absolutely, and
we chose. I chose the one I wanted, the climp
or the pierce that I wanted. And it took forever
because they said my nipples were so small that it
(14:44):
was taking them longer to somebody is cringing right now
that sweating it just it took so long, and the
worst part is it eventually fell out and I had
to go back and they had to repierce it.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I am glad I was present that you.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Weren't there for that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I would say, although if you haven't had your balls tapped,
it can be kind of hot. I had somebody do
that to me once and I was like, oh, I
actually kind of enjoyed that, but I'm probably gonna say
I would rather wriind it.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Bulls clamped. Then my ball's tapped. Okay, there are tracks.
How do you, Matthew?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your doctor
or your therapist?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Ooh, my doctor is hot, so I would accidentally send
my news is hot.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh my god, I can't. So we go to the
same doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
We're not going to say which one, but we were
to the same doctor's office, and there is one doctor there,
or that is, there are doctors that are very true.
If there's one in particular who is very, very hot,
and I won't go to him because you not touching
nothing in my booty. Hall looking like that, sir, you
look too good.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
No, no, I like it.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
You like it. I don't. I'm not here for it.
Its so easy, Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I hate that.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I would rather send it to both their ladies, so
neither of one of them would like it. So I
would rather not send it to anyone. But if I
had to choose, if it weren't who let me choose it,
not as my actual doctor in therapist, but a doctor
or a therapist.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I would choose.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
A doctor because I feel like they'd be like, well,
it's anatomy.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
And there wouldn't be follow up conversations like let's just
like why this to me?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And I could be like, oh my godness, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I had a wart and I accidentally, I will tell
you sorry, I did accidentally send a nude. It was terrified, devastated,
like it was my new like one of my new
friends that I was working with, and I accident I
was like also messaging some boy and I was talking
to my girlfriend and I you know, like how it
is when you're when you're multitasking, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Accidentally sent a dude.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely and I accidentally sent a nude to my friend
and who is also my coworker, and like we were
just getting close.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I was like, oh I god.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
She was luckily very she already knew that I was
home sexual, was not trying to come on to her,
so she was very understanding and loving.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
But I was mortified more to fied.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And so now I'm I always double check before I
send anything. And I love the unsend feature and I
also love thank you Apple for catching up. And I
love I love the invisible ink so that like if
you you send it on. I don't know if Androids
(17:36):
had this, but I know for Apple you can send
it in like an invisible way, and so like if
you sent an accent, yes, you just be like, hey,
don't don't fucking download happen?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, fabulous you want Hey, what do I win my
unconditional love? Honey?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, so you get more of it? Okay, you can't
have enough of it, it's not fair. Oh wait, look
what time it is. It's time for messy Mail, where
we read out some of the messy patron stories and submissions.
As always, if you have prompts or games or anything
like that, or your own messy stories, you can email
them to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
(18:17):
And remember everything always remains anonymous. Baby, So we got
you now. Speaking of Matthew, tell me something messy all right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So, as you know, I'm I'm a nature boy. I
love to go hiking and camping and be outdoors.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The opposite you won't ever ever.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
For some reason unbeknownst to me, I always get really
horny when I'm out on nature, okay, really horny. And
so I was on this one camping trip and we
I went with one of my besties, my best girlfriends,
and we were by a river and we always get
naked and go skinny dipping, and we also like go
and do our own thing and spend some time apart.
And so I, being out in nature naked, got horny.
(19:05):
So I started to jerk off while I was in
the river, Okay, and not ten or fifteen seconds after
I came a whole troop of kayakers and whitewater rafters
went right past me down the river. Oh ten or
(19:26):
fifteen of them that would have absolutely seen me common
orgasm if they were but ten seconds earlier.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh my god. Well, kind of a public kink, I guess,
which is not what you're going for.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And I didn't.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I didn't. I didn't know it was public at the time.
It was a very secluded area. I thought I was safe.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But was your semen floating in the river?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Like with the semen was floating in the river and
I had to dip down underwater so they did not
see my erect penis?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Did you submerge your whole body under the water or
just you're like just the bottom half, just the bottom half?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, okay, I'm just picturing your semen floating and a
kayaker going what is that?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
They might have Was it a big load? Was it
a little load. You come a lot. It was and
in nature, yeah, oh wow, the nature of it all,
the edging of it all.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Okay, it doesn't it does it for me. There's something
about doing it while you're in the sun and fresh air.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You love that stuff. I got allergy.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So it's.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's not you watched me take allergy medicine like twice
a day. I'm doing listen for tea like because you're
not going to make me out to be crazy on
this look on my own damn show. So for context,
I have a lot of fucking allergies. It's actually quite annoying.
But I finally went to an allergist and I am
(21:00):
taking like these doses of grass and dust occasionally. So
it's like it's every morning I take like a little
dose for grass, and every night I take a little
dose for dust and do it for a few years.
I know you do it for a few years and
it's supposed to build up your immunity or like whatever.
So the point is that I'm hoping to reunite with
(21:21):
nature in like three to five years.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Okay, is that fair? Nobody?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Listeners, Do not hold your breath, Do not hold your breath.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Absolutely, I would never listen, I would never lie to you,
never hold your breath.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
But that's my hope.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
My hope is that maybe if it's more comfortable for me,
yeah and my immune system, that I will enjoy it
because I do.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love of you.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I love of you. I love seeing the sunset, you know.
I love looking at the river and the ocean. I
tend to like to look at it from like a
rooftop bar. But you know whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Love a pool side margarita, love a beachside cabana. You know,
That's how I tend to enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But I'll know I'll get in there, would you?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And then maybe we could, you know, jerk off in
nature together one day. Oh maybe it's what maybe one day,
but do not hold me to.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
A second honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Here we go, Oh my goodness. Okay, anyways, all right, the.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Next submission, Uh, fucked the woman I'm seeing six times
in twelve hours.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
She said it felt.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Like an exorcism. Now, I don't like scary movies. Is
an exorcism good?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Not historically, but in this context, I could see how
oof you just exercised some demons.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Six times in twelve hours. What's the longest you've ever
had sex?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Four? Well, I'm assuming it's not twelve hours straint, but like, no, no, no, no,
have you ever done like a twelve hour day of
like we're just fucking?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And yes I have in college my boyfriend and I
were were rather college.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
The stamina nineteen years old, that's stamina.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And there was one evening that we each we each
came six times over the course of the night.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Of the night. How was how many hours?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Was thish eight to ten?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Eight to ten hours? And y'all came six times each? Wow,
I think the most I've ever come. I would say
maybe three or four times. That's a good number, I think,
I think, I think, I actually, I think it was
three times. Was the most that, like, I had come
in one session. It was a couple hours, but you know,
(23:30):
because you gotta get it back up. But yeah, okay,
it felt like an exorcism, which you know, in this
context does sound lovely. Next question, they said, had sex
with a coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
So your co worker, maybe their co worker has a
different boss or whatever. Either way, had sex with a
(23:51):
coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So, how have you ever done that?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I have never done that. I get nervous if I
can get caught. Yeah, I'm not a big like, oh,
let's let's get caught. That's that. I get too anxious.
I get to in my head, so I can't enjoy
something like that very fully.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
That's fair. I will say. The closest that I've come
to this.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Was in I guess I could say now in college,
I was on student council. The building next door to
our building didn't have a bunch of like they were
moving a new department in there, so most of the
offices were empty, and they were moving the student council
office into that building as well. But again most of
the building was empty still, especially our floor.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But we had an.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Access code as student council members to get into the
building after hours. So Okay and my then Boothing would
go to the building at night.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I would punch in the little code and we would
go up to whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Use of power I suddenly.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
We would go to other floor I was, and we
would pick an empty office. And I will say that
if they if those carpets have not been pulled up
since two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
There's some uh uh, there's some.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
DNA, some semen on some of those carpets. So that's
the closest I've come. But I'm like you, I don't.
I don't the the anxiety of getting caught is not
fun to me. I don't mind public play, but that
if we're all in agreement that that's what is happening here,
I'm fine with that. But the idea of like doing
it somewhere I'm not supposed to, which I get and
(25:41):
I know people find hot. It puts me in my
head same, Yeah, it puts me in my head.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Ready for my messy pic.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Okay, So today I want to talk about something that
you know has been mentioned in a bunch of episodes
and I keep getting emailed about, which is polyamory.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And so you already if you've been.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Here, if you're new here, hello, But you know that
I am in a polyamorous relationship. My husband and I
have been together for nine years. We started open and
then it slowly went into polyamory. I now have a
boyfriend who have been with for.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Almost a year.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
And so because we keep getting questions, Matthew and I
are going to have this like polyamorous discussion about our
journey to polyamory, and so shall we do it?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Huh Okay, this one says, can you talk about ethical
non monogamy, mismatch and desire communication help?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I need communication tips.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I feel like the conversation needs more time and needs
nuance and needs space for that. We are talking about
polyamory now a little bit more in culture. But I
will say that Matthew and I have been together for
nine years. We've been open for what like seven seven
(27:03):
those six or seven, Yeah, and we've we've in those
six or seven years have seen the conversations go from
what the fuck are y'all doing?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
To oh your polyo?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So like we've watched culture open up around it. But
understand that there is a lot of misunderstandings about what
polyamoryan on monogamy is. There's a lot of opinions, a
lot of nasty opinions, not so nice opinions about it.
And I, you know, what I do on Instagram is
(27:33):
is what I do.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And I never want.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
To bring my partner into the chaos of what it
means for me to be public facing and especially around
this subject. And so it made the most sense to
me to talk about this with my husband as opposed
to just by myself. So we're gonna talk about it.
(27:56):
We're gonna get into it. Are you ready to get
into it?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Baby? I'm so read I love, We're.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So excited about this. Yes, we've uh. Well, let's start
by defining what polyamory is. So.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Polyamory or consensual non monogamy is the practice of having
multiple intimate relationships, whether sexual or just romantic, with the
full knowledge and consent of all parties involved. Matthew, does
that definition feel good to you?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I like that definition. I really love the emphasis on
full knowledge and consent of all of all parties. That's
very important.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Let me actually messy, key key, Matthew and I are
going to talk about polyamorne non monogamy, open relationships and
what it means to us and our relationship. But the
thing about this conversation is that other people have their
own versions of what this looks like, and so please
do not take anything that we're saying here as law.
This is just a conversation, a jumping off point, something
(28:57):
for you to use in your own research or to
use for your own experience. But it's not that this
is the way or the only way or the only
definitions of things. You'll notice that some people will say
that's not polyamory and that's not open or whatever. My
feelings about that before we dive in is don't yuck
(29:20):
somebody's yem and stop gatekeeping. I think a lot of
times people in oppressed groups or marginalized groups and this
has this could be about polyamory, this could be about race,
this could be about gender sexual orientation will then begin
to gate keep themselves and it's like, no, we should
all just be trying to get free. And so whatever
works for you. As I always say, as long as
(29:41):
you're not hurting yourself or anybody else, go off. So
we started our relationship as open, and I would define open.
The difference for me between open and Polly is that
the openness was not about intimate relationships. The openness was
just about being able to have sex with other people.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Would you agree?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah? And in fact, when we first opened so we
had been monogamous for about two years or so, and
the first time we opened it, we actually had a
rule of no penetrative sex.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
So it was just engaging sexually with others, but we
weren't penetrating, and then eventually we talked about penetrating and
how do we do that safely?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And yeah, it was we were like, you know, it's
like if you're out at a club and you meet
a hottie and you want to make out with them
and you want to go into the bathroom and give
them a blow job, like go off, Like I'm not
pressed about that, but yeah, it did start.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And I think the beauty if.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You bring up a point that it didn't start with
penetrative is that I think sometimes when people want to
open their relationships or move into polly, they want to
go to ten right away, right And it's very fine
for you to start at one or two, which is like, hey,
we're going to open this, but there are a couple
rules here, a bunch of rules here, because you're also
(31:02):
still building trust inside of the relationship and wanting space
for failure to happen so that you can learn and
process and grow together before expanding it even further. If
it's all, if it's a free for all, if you
are not yourself, if you don't identify as a polyamorous
person or a non monogamous person. Then to start at
(31:25):
attend is not necessarily the.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I want to.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Say, the safest emotionally safe is really what we're talking about,
because we've been indoctrinated in the monogamous culture. So why
would you suddenly know how to do non monogamy or
polyamory when you haven't seen it. So we started open,
and then this is how I remember it kind of expanding,
(31:49):
was that we were open and correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I think Matthew was having a good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Time and I was having a harder time because what
I realized and what I learned through this whole journey
and through this polyamor's journey, was that hookups.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Didn't do it for me.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
That I had a harder time just like meeting somebody
and hooking up and then being done with it. Even
as we moved into penetrative or the rules of penetration
being allowed, I just had a hard time. I needed connection,
I needed intimacy. And so we gradually started to I think,
(32:32):
work our way into expanding the definition of what open.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Could look like.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
We're not I don't think we were quite at Polly.
So it wasn't quite like, oh, you're in a relationships
with other people. It was just the ability to have
an emotional connection was introduced, that this could be really
your friend, a little you know, a little your friend
with benefits, something that you have an emotional connection to.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Would you agree?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I agree, Yeah, just like some consistency. And and I
even found that with myself that I like, if I
was with somebody that I liked, I liked what the
sex was like, I liked them as a person, I
wanted to keep going back. I wanted to maintain that
connection and build on that connection. Yes, And so I
think I think I think we both just naturally are
(33:20):
very emotional relational people, and so we kind of in
our own ways gravitated towards that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, because sometimes with open relationships, I think I think
this was our original rule.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It was kind of like a one and done.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yes, like you couldn't do repeats, which is I think
a normal rule that some people have when they open
the relationship because you're trying to avoid the emotional.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Attachment, the emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, another rule of ours, which is still a rule
which I would say, Now we have a lot less
rules in our in our poly life, but we don't
fuck each other's friends is a is a big rule.
So listen, we're in Los Angeles, and so you have
to really define what a friend is, because I do,
(34:04):
because because like he's like, I could meet somebody and
math you could meet somebody and we could, oh we're cool,
but they're not friends enough yet, and so we don't
know that either of us has a relationship with that person.
So we were like, if that happens, and like, you
fuck that person and then you find out after that
it's somebody that I'm a friend of, no problem whatever.
But if we knowingly know that this is, you know,
(34:26):
one of our friends, then it's off the table.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Off the table, yeah, and not you.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Know, listen, I'm not saying that you can't that it
can't work for another relationship, but for us, it felt
like this is a this is a guard rail that
feels important so that we can preserve friendships, yes, preserve
our individual friendships, not get anything muddy or complicated. So
it was a rule that there's no sex with each
other's friends. And then when do you think that we
(34:54):
like fully stepped into the poll of it all, Like
how many years were we in?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I feel like I feel like it was around three
years ago. Maybe I think we had been open for
three years, give or take.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I think what happened was, yes, you're right, because three
years ago I had met somebody and I was.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Yes, yeah, I was seeing someone very consistently same thing.
It was originally very very sex based, but we just
sort of hit it off. Our personalities really went well together,
we developed feelings for each other, and I think that
was the first time that I was like, oh, okay,
this is different than being in an open relationship. And
(35:45):
so I remember you and I having a conversation over
dinner one night, like how do we feel about the
idea of bringing relationship into our nominogamy? What would that
look like? What would that feel like? And I think
we were able to just have a really open, curious
conversation about like, what's the intention behind that, where could
(36:09):
that go? What is each of our individual capacity to
handle that? And it sort of just came, as it
has through most of this journey, that we were both
very on the same page, very like, yeah, I love
connecting deeply to someone, I love getting to know someone.
I love being able to give part of myself to someone.
And that doesn't mean that you my partner is going
(36:31):
to get any less of me.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
You saying that makes me you know when this person
asks for tips, it's communic communication. It's like the number
one thing. The only way this works is if you
and your partner are willing to be radically transparent with
each other. And you know, one of the things that
it's also going to come up and we can talk
about this is jealousy. That's a big question that comes
(36:54):
up around you know, non monogamy, open relationships, and polymory.
But you have nothing if you are not able to
communicate and if anything being you know, open and non
monogamous and Polly has forced us to get better at
communicating and to be able to say, oh, this makes
me feel some type of way and what is that?
(37:17):
Or I need this from you, or like you can't
guess there's too many emotions happening. And the other reason
the communication is important is because Matthew and I in
our marriage, we're married to each other, we're tied to
each other, and so there's a solidness there. But if
we are having relationships outside, that person may not have
(37:40):
a partner. They might they may not, but there they
don't have the same quote unquote safety net. And so
I do think what I've learned in this journey is
that it's our responsibility as the coupled to also be
able to show up for them, not that we have
to be there there like their husband, but that we're
being sensitive to their needs and their heart and preempting
(38:04):
things right and asking the questions because I think sometimes
feedback that I've gotten has been people afraid of asking
for what they need because they don't want to overstep
the marriage, if that makes sense. And so I've learned that, oh,
what that ends up doing is that I'm not able
to meet your needs because I don't know that what
(38:26):
you're asking for. And so I've learned that as the
coupled partner that I have to ask my you know,
single partner more questions, more directly, what do you need?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Are you feeling okay? You said this thing? Is that
really what you mean? Do you need?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Like you having to not just be honest when someone
asks the question, but to ask the questions.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Does that make sense? Oh? Yes, absolutely, to be willing
to say are you jealous in this moment? Or how
did that make you feel? Or what do you need?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Like being able to ask those questions is as equally
as important as answering a question.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Honestly, Yeah, I found it incredibly helpful to be able
to relay to my other partners just how solid you
and I are and how much we communicate, so that
they don't have that fear of like, oh gosh, like
am I coming in and going to interrupt something? Am
I going to cause drama? And so really being able
to put them at ease, like you do not need
(39:25):
to worry about that, like we have this figured out.
If something comes up, we talk about it. What's really
important is that you feel safe and comfortable being able
to share.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I also think it's worth to note here, you know,
we opened and entered polyamory from a place of like
how do we add how do we have abundance? We
love each other, and how do we love more? Yeah,
we didn't get into it as like a oh, we're
not doing so well. Let's see if we try this
out and that will make things better. I think that
(39:57):
that can be successful. Maybe that is a thing that
can and help your relationship. But I feel like if
you're starting with those cracks in the relationship where things
aren't one hundred percent sturdy. Then there it's more likely
someone could come in and interrupt it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
But yeah, yeah, I love that that it's it's something
that you're doing as to add to the relationship, not
fix the relationship. Let's talk about sleepovers. So when we started,
you know, I have a so I have a boyfriend now,
which hopefully when this comes out, I will still have
a boyfriend in so many months, but as of today
when we're recording this, I have a boyfriend. And so
(40:34):
sleepovers started to become part of the equation because usually
we just like didn't we didn't do sleepovers. We knew
that I think we knew that like a sleepover if
we kept being polly and kept developing the relationships that
would need to come on the table. But for us,
we originally were feeling like, no sleepovers if both of
us are in the same city. So if you're in
(40:55):
a different city, if I'm out of town, you're out
of town, like go off to your thing. But if
we're both within the same city, let's not. But now
that I have a boyfriend, it came up this, you know, sleepovers.
And so I give a lot of credit to my husband,
to Matthew, because we had the conversation, and I was like,
I know this is something that this was, this was
(41:16):
the thing that.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Made you uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
And I would say Matthew had the rule that we
were respecting, which is no sleepovers. But in wanting to
you know, expand our our situation and and and take
into consideration this new heart that is part of our relationship.
And when I say part of our relationship, I don't
mean like in a threuple, it's my boyfriend. Matthew does not.
(41:40):
Matthew is the metamure, which I should define as well,
which is your your partner's partner. That's what a meta mirrors.
So we wanted to you know, expand or the rules,
and so it was really about testing it. And so
I think I came to you and said, I want
(42:01):
to talk about sleepovers. Yes, I think that you know,
I know that my part my boyfriend wants to do
a sleepover and I would like to sleepover. But I
know this makes you uncomfortable. So what like, let's talk
about what makes you uncomfortable. And where we landed was
let's try it. And the reason I think this is
so important is because one of my dear friends from college,
(42:25):
she is married to a man, and her husband has
a girlfriend, and during the pandemic, all three of them
moved in together. And my friend, she said to me,
when I first met the girlfriend and had the girl
and the idea of the girlfriend living in the house,
(42:45):
I thought I was supposed to be jealous. I was
taught that I was supposed to be jealous. But what
ended up happening was I as somebody in the house
doing the dishes and cooking.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The food, and like, you know what I didn't want
to do with my husband.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Like there she was to deal with it, and she
was like I felt so free, and it was like, oh,
sometimes you think you're supposed to be jealous, and so
you're preempting the jealousy as opposed to if you actually
do it and experience it, you're like, oh, I actually
didn't feel anything at all. And so our strategy for
the sleepover was one give advance notice, so here's the
(43:20):
day that the sleepover.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Is gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
And then the deal was when I came back, we
would process and be like, how was that?
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Did it feel? Weird?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
What you know, if you hated it or not hated it,
And so that's what we did, and when we when
I came home, what was your experience?
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Like? It was fine, Like, I know, I caught myself
being okay, like what are my actual feelings here? Right?
Like kind of like what you were saying. There was
a moment of like, huh, I could easily lean into
the like yeah, you're gone and I'm alone and this
doesn't feel good. But that wasn't authentic. That's not what
I was feeling. I was actually like completely fine with it.
(44:00):
And I think part of the reason I was fine
with it is because I had a say in it,
had I had a decision power in it. And because
of that, because you allowed me to have agency and
acknowledge that this is going to impact me and affect
me so I do play a role in whether it
happens or not. Allowed me to be like great, cool,
I'm I am saying I'm okay with this, And if
(44:22):
I do have feelings, then it's not like I'm going
to resent you or be mad at you because you
tried to make this thing happen. But it was like no,
I was a willing participant.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, that's so important one that you get to have
your feelings and that inside of this like that no
one's saying you're not gonna get jealous, you get to
be jealous. I think it's like, well, how do we
communicate about that jealousy and finding out if that jealousy
is even actually there sometimes, but I love the idea
of giving you agency, like don't just do something and
(44:54):
then tell your partner later and hope Like it's like,
let's talk about the thing, and then we were both
participating in it, and we can find a way to
participate in a way that keeps us both emotionally safe.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I think the biggest thing I've gained is knowing a
part of myself, part of my identity that I didn't
know before, which is just how much I love love,
And like, I've always sort of had that idea in
my head but never really had the language or the
ability to express it in this way. But I just
(45:29):
love loving people any way, shape or form, and being
polyamorous has allowed me to really expand what love looks
like and really own the fact that I have such
a reserve of it to give, and being able to
give it to people, to different people in different ways
has been so fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I think I've always been Polly but didn't have the
language for it, because when I look back at the
relationships before you and I got together, and even when
you and I first got together, I was never able
to see the finish line. I was never able to
see myself old with that same person on the rocking chair,
like the thing you're taught, which is like we're gonna
be together forever, We're gonna grow old together. I could
(46:09):
never see, like the pressure of that always felt crushing.
But I did not get in relationships because I couldn't
see it. I was like, well, I'll get there when
I get there. And so you know, when we first
got together, Matthew actually said out loud like I'm not
into non monogamy.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I don't want to have an open relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Matthew was also the one two years later to bring
non monogamy to the table, and both times I was
very blase about it. The first time I was like, okay,
like I'm not gonna fight for non monogamy because I
don't really know what that means either, like I should
want to be with you forever anyway.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
And then when he did.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Bring it to the table, I was like okay, yeah,
like I have no I've actually never had an issue
with non monogamy. For me, it's always been about or
even cheating, quote unquote. It's always been about the lying.
It's never about the person fucking somebody else. I've never like,
that's like it's the lack of jealousy that I have
has never been about, you know, the person fucking somebody
(47:03):
else and not me. It was always the lying about it.
So it was like, as long as we're open with
each other about what we're doing, I'm fine. I'm great
with it. What I think I've gained though from polyamory,
which I wasn't expecting, Apart from I think stepping into
a piece of myself that's always kind of existed, and
this expansion of love is learning in our relationship. We
(47:26):
can only do so much for each other. Yeah, just
with our different backgrounds, our different identities, There's only so
much that you and I can connect with. And this,
I think for me, what I would say is a
false idea that your partner should be responsible for all
of your needs and should be able to connect with
you on everything. It's like, no, there's a reason why
you don't have like only one friend, right, you have
(47:47):
a couple of friends, because each of them brings I
think somebody I had heard somebody talk about as a mosaic,
like stop wanting your friends to be perfect. They're a
mosaic of your life. And so every person doesn't have
to fulfill every need. They fulfill their buckets. I think
the same is true in a romantic relationship. It's like
this one partner doesn't have to be responsible for me
(48:09):
feeling all the things, for me getting all my cups filled.
There are other partners that can be part of that.
One of the things that I always talk about is,
and we'll go back to it, hiking. I don't bin
at a camp. Hiking and camping is incredibly important to Matthew.
It's not something I do instead of it's.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Not something I do period period.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
But instead of like forcing me to go on the
hike or the camp that my New Yorker ass doesn't
want to go on, Matthew has another partner who does
that with them. I'm obsessed, Like I can listen to
music all the way the house down, Matthew is not.
He's not like, oh, I'm going to walk around the
house with some new music. So like having a partner
that I can relate with that on is really beautiful,
and it just frees up the pressure off of our
(48:53):
marriage and allows our marriage to be to me, a
very soft landing space because all the needs don't have
to be filled here. So our relationship for me gets
to be so safe and so soft because I'm not
responsible for everything and you're not responsible for my everything.
(49:14):
And we learned so much from these other partners that
also informs this marriage as well, and so that's what
I think, that's what I've gained, is just being able
to know more of myself, being able to heal parts
of myself, being able to activate parts of myself.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
That I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
We're dormant, which has nothing to do with this marriage,
because again, like your marriage, that one relationship can only
do so much, So it's just it's about an expansion.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
The other benefit is that you get to really own
that you have lots of needs and all of those
needs deserve to be met. I think a lot of
times people in relationships run into it like, oh, my partner,
like my partner doesn't like hiking camping. Therefore I'm going
to just reject and deny this need. I'm not going
to go hiking. I'm not going to go camping because
(50:07):
my partner doesn't want to. I don't want to force
them to do it, so I'm just going to give
it up. But instead it's like no, okay, So I'm
not going to get this with Brandon, but I am
still going to get this because it is still in
need that matters.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yes, And by the way, this is not like a
This is not a PSA for poly like if monogamy
works for you, beautiful, this conversation is really like, oh,
there's other ways of being in relationship, and this is
what we've gained from it. I want I want to
paint a picture of this isn't you know the myths
that we see where like everyone's jealous or everyone you know,
(50:40):
y'all just trying to fuck each other. I think I
saw a myth was like you just want to pass
less taxes and like, yeah, what do we like, get
out of here?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Get out of here? We could?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, So my love The last question, which I think
you know to take it back to the to the submission,
which is what are your tips for a new couple
wanting to explore non monogamy but having mismatched desires.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Ooh yeah, I would say take it slow and really
understand that although your desires may be different, they both
are valid, they both matter whatever they are, And I
think instead of falling into the trap of binary thinking,
look for creative solutions, like it doesn't have to be
(51:25):
we do this or we do that. What's a third
or fourth, a fifth way that you can go about
trying to do this so that everyone can feel safe,
everyone can get their needs met. And maybe that does
mean you move a little slower than one partner wants
to or a little faster than one partner wants to.
But as long as you're continuously checking in and saying, okay,
how are we at. What's our barometer meter right now?
(51:47):
You'll get to where you want to get to.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
I think the key word in your question is explore. Right,
It's an exploration, and you're doing it together. This is
your teammates, even if we have mismatched desires, like this
is my teammate and we're exploring this thing.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
It's not going to be perfect. In fact, it's going
to be.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Messy, messy, So like knowing that ahead of time and
allowing the space for failure, for imperfection, for you to
get it wrong, as long as you know, oh, this
is how we talk about it, how we process, and
how we move forward, and you might actually find it
requires such radical conversations that you might actually find that
(52:26):
there are a lot of places where your desires do
match and you can start from there. The mismatch is fine,
it's like, it's good to know what both of you
don't agree on. But in that conversation you'll also find
well where is the middle ground? Yes, And as Matthew said,
you know, starts slow. So we start with the tiny
little thing, which is we both agree to threesome, so
we both agree that kissing is fine, or we both
(52:48):
agree when we're out of like the small thing, and
then you can as that feels good and that feels solid,
then you can expand from there. I can't impress enough
that Matthew and I have been together for nine years.
We've been h Nomena Goes for six or seven years,
so it's been where we were six seven years ago
is not where we are now. And it was a
very slow build and I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And I think the part of that in that build
is also to recognize what you're doing individually is you're
dismantling your internalized heteronormativity. You were given all of these
rules about what it means to be in relationship and
what was a trusting, loving relationship, and what you're doing
and opening up is you're interrogating that and you're asking
(53:34):
different questions. How can we still maintain trust and love
but not doing it the way we've been taught And
that takes time.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
That takes time. Matthew, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (53:44):
I love for having me my love. I love you, believe.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
I'll talk to you Okay, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I love my husband. He's the best and I'm so
glad that he was here today. You already know we're
hoes here, but hose with heart.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
So before we.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Get out of here, let me speak to yours, my love.
No matter what the whole point of this show is
to create a safe space for everyone, whatever your background,
whatever your identity, whatever your relationship to sex is, whatever
your relationship to yourself is. I want you to feel safe,
and so I want to remind you that you're accepted
(54:29):
and you're loved here, and that if you don't have
a community right now, if you don't have a place
where you feel like you can really be yourself. I
hope that this will be a bridge until you find
that irl community. But no matter what, if you take
nothing away, just remember that you matter, that your pleasure matters,
(54:50):
that your boundaries matter, that your heart matters, that your
life matters, that you my love, you matter.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
This is one of them when you wonder what your
role is in this country and what your future is
in it. How precise are you're going to reconcile yourself
to your situation here and how you are going to communicate.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
That you are here.
Speaker 4 (55:21):
I'm terrified at the morrow abbathey, the death of the heart,
which is happening in my country.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
So that is the audio of James Baldwin, which I
think perfectly sums up how I'm feeling, and I imagine
how you're feeling as well, which is like, what what.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Do we do?
Speaker 1 (55:44):
And I don't know if right now is the time?
You know, this is as I'm recording this, This is Wednesday.
You're gonna hear this on Thursday or whenever you end
up listening to it. So it feels a little too
soon to know exactly what the moves are. But I
will just share my experience. Of course I am sad.
(56:07):
Of course I am shocked. I'm not surprised, though. It
was so interesting talking to my white friends this morning
versus talking to my black friends this morning. My white
friends seemed a little more surprised than my black friends,
which I think is for obvious reasons. To live in
(56:30):
this country as a black person, as a queer person,
as a woman, as a trans person, is non binary,
and then to live at the intersections of all of
those things. I think you are aware. I know I
am aware of where I live. The first time that
(56:51):
this presidency happened was shocking, obviously, coming off the heels
of an Obama to two terms of Obama. So, like
you know, we were in our little bubble, and so
when we heard the news that Hillary had lost, I
(57:11):
swear like gobsmacked, shocked and really had me go, in
what ways am I not connected to my country? And
what ways am I not connected to the other views
that are out there? How have I been in this
bubble this time around? I was bracing myself because it
(57:35):
felt like, well, if we're if we're coming back around,
and this man has an opportunity to run again. That
tells me a lot already. Do I have faith that
this country would elect a woman or a black woman?
It fucking should. But I'm raised by two dark skinned,
(57:59):
immigrant black women, and so you know, I've been up
close as to how this country navigates black women. I
am non binary, and so I really play, like not play,
but I moved through masculinity and femininity. You know, I
(58:20):
was at the gym this morning in a sports spra
and coachy shorts. I'm very very aware of how people
treat femininity and how people respond and react to it.
So again, none of it is surprising, but it is
very sobering and sad, and there's grief and there's anger.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Rage.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
Actually, that rage and that sadness they really play together.
So what does that mean? Because you know, I don't
want to, Like at the gym on Monday and a
messy patron, a fellow hoe walked up to me as
(59:08):
I was walking towards the shower and he was like,
how are you feeling about tomorrow? And I was like,
I don't know, I voted and all that, and he
looked so devastated. He was white, because like I was
hoping that you would be you know, I guess more energetic,
more affirming, and I just wasn't. And I felt bad
(59:33):
about it because I was like, oh, I feel bad
that I'm.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Not more optimistic. Listen. I wasn't like, oh, it's not
gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (59:41):
But I was just like, I I'm not letting my
I'm not hanging my hopes on this. I'm not going
to get my hopes up for this. I'm gonna do
what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna say what I
need to say. I'm gonna have the conversations I need
to have. I'm gonna show up how I need to
show up. But I'm also there's a lot of evidence
(01:00:04):
here of where I live and this what we are
up against. And so I was like, I don't know.
And now that it's happened, there are a couple things
that I feel. One it's not a relief, but it's like, Okay,
the thing happened. The thing that we were afraid of
(01:00:26):
happening happened, So now I don't need to worry about
it happening or not. I don't know if there's a
piece in that. It's like it happened, and here we
are and we're awake and we have to move forward,
and so how do we do that? The other piece
I think that came up for me is how do
(01:00:50):
I protect the people that I love most? That we
are more vulnerable than we ever been, y'all. This is
I really came into this booth like, oh, I don't
know what I'm gonna say about this, but I know
I need to say something.
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
So forgive me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
As I'm processing, you're like literally hearing me process this
with you out loud in real time, and so it's
not as articulate as I would like it to be,
because this is not an articulate time. It's a really imperfect, messy, sloppy,
fucked up time. And so this thing that I'm sharing
also feels that way too. So let me pivot in
(01:01:34):
this way, which is I feel very protective. I feel
protective of you. I feel protective of my chosen family.
I feel protective of my blood relatives. I feel protective
of my friends, my community. One thing I do know is,
no matter what we are in this together, I know
that my ancestors have navigated far darker times and have
(01:02:01):
made a way for me to even be sitting here
talking to you. I know that the work that we
do together is even more important. Us Being able to
talk about our bodies, talk about sex, talk about intersectionality,
talk about queerness, talk about women's pleasure, queer folks pleasure
(01:02:21):
is even more important. I know that you know. Saying
that I'm pro love and pro choice and pro black
and protrans and pro queer and pro hoe is even
more important.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
I want you to feel whatever you're feeling, however the
sadness comes, however the grief comes, feel it, but also
know that you're not alone. That we are in this together.
And that's not just some like spiritual bullshit that people
say to you know, it's not thoughts and prayers like
there is work.
Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
To be done. That is clear.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
We are in a country that is divided, that is clear.
But there are also vulnerable people in those red states.
There are also queer folks and women and people who
need gender affirming healthcare, who need the right to abortion access,
who deserve to have African American studies, who deserve people
(01:03:23):
to say gay and queer and trans and non binary.
There are people that need that and deserve that access.
And so for those of us who are in spaces
where we feel safe enough. I do believe it is
our responsibility to feel our feels, but to also continue
(01:03:46):
to show up, especially for those who aren't able to.
Right now, think about kids, I think about queer kids.
I was thinking about oh, thinking about how Paris is burning.
That documentary which if you haven't seen it, highly recommend,
(01:04:08):
and it documents black and brown folks in New York
City in the ball culture, and I was thinking about
how when that was being filmed, I was little baby,
not even thinking about queerness, but that those people who
were so unapologetically themselves and found community with each other
(01:04:33):
and were being spit on and harassed and killed still
showed up as themselves, still fought to be themselves, and
because of them, I'm able to exist.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
And so it is.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
I can't even imagine not continuing to show up for
the next generation that's coming up underneath me, underneath us.
I hope you got something out of this, which is
that this is devastating, and this is awful and it's tragic,
and we need to acknowledge that it's all those things.
Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
But you're not alone. I'm not alone. We will make away.
Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
And I love you more than ever, more than ever,
it is important for me to say that I love you,
I see you. You matter, who you are, your identity,
how you identify it matters. It fucking matters. Do not
let some election results persuade you into thinking otherwise. You matter,
(01:05:39):
and I love you? All right, homekeeping and then I'm
out of here. You can find Matthew on Instagram at
Matthew Underscore Raymond eighteen or his website Matthew Raymondtherapy dot com.
You can find me on Instagram at Brandon Kyle Goodman.
You can also join the community on substack, the Messy
(01:06:03):
Monday Substack. When you subscribe, you'll get bonus episodes from
the show, essays inspired by the podcast, recommendations, and more.
I believe that's Brandon called Goodman dot substack dot com,
but if you go on my Instagram or my website
you'll find it also.
Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
I want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Send your topic ideas, your submissions, your stories, recommendations, anything
to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
You can also call.
Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Us at six six nine sixty nine messy. Yeah, bitch,
I gotta fucking call line.
Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
That's six six nine six nine six three seven seven
nine for you hos who grew up after Landlines, and
make sure you check the show notes because that's where
we will have links for the resources, uh you know,
some extra material, some extra things for you to dive
into based off the conversations we've been having today. And rate,
review and share this podcast with all of your HOE
(01:06:58):
or aspiring HOE friends. You know, reading the podcast really
helps us get to new listeners and really.
Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Helps the success of the show. And we want the
show to be successful. Baby.
Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
And if y'all find out how to pay less taxes
being polyamorous, please let me know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Please, I'm down. I'm down to save some coin.
Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I'm always doing much taxes, but I'm down to save
some coin, honey, So let me know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Let me know, and don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
We have our Merch Drop, Our Messy Merch Drop, currently
running until November tenth at Brandon Call Goodman dot com
backslash merch.
Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
That's it, that's.
Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Everything, get us everything until we meet again. Ask about
the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Make sure they eat.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
The kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation or
sucation communication.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
And in case you haven't heard it, yet today you
are so deeply loved. I love you.
Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, the episode to someone
else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was
executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly.
Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app
or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.
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