September 12, 2024 • 50 mins
Digging in deep on a sensitive subject, Brandon and special guest TS Madison talk about a recent experience Madison had when re-examining her own sexual and romantic relationships. You can feel the love in this conversation as Brandon and Madison tackle inherited burdens and societal pressures that get in the way of one's happiness. And, once again, Brandon keeps trying to get guests to go on a hike during the lube-breaker game.
Find TS Madison at: https://www.instagram.com/tsmadison/
Follow Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandonkylegoodman
Join the C'Heauxmunity at https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/
Submit your own messy story or question at TellMeSomethingMessy@gmail.com or call (669) 696-3779
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, push back
on me. If I know to my core that if
I if I love all of this, then I'm not
surprised by you saying you love me, because it's like, yeah,
(00:24):
let me just spill this to you. So I go
to the gym, and at the gym there is a
steam room, and I am no stranger to steamroom antics,
you know, whether it's at a gay spot or at
the gym. You know, I understand the politics of a
steam room in a men's locker room right that there
will be some freaky digy things that might go down,
(00:44):
and I don't I don't care because I'm really just
in there doing my physical therapy exercises for my neck
and my hip. I'm doing my neck snags, I'm doing
my you know, my little figure fours. Is that what
they call face? Or you put the ankle on your
knee and you bend over, open your hip.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I'm in they're doing that, But I'm not opposed to
the freaky deck shit that happens in there, whether I'm
part of it or witnessing it, I don't mind. Like,
do you think you know America do you shood? You
know what I'm saying. The other day, I head to
the steamroom. I opened the door and these two hotties
I could smell that they were they were they were
already getting for you dick. I know, I know when
(01:20):
dicks are being touched. It's like a sixth sense of mind.
I know when the dick is being touched. And so
the dicks were clearly being touched, and they were trying
to like act cool, and I'm like, babe, like I
don't give a fuck. Do you think I'm just gonna
sit over here and stretch my neck? So I sit down,
I start to stretch my neck. The first hottie you know,
fixes his towel, he walks out. Two seconds later, the
second hotty fixes his towel, walks out. That is confirmation
(01:42):
that dicks were being touched. So now it's just me
in the steamroom stretching my neck. The door opens and
another little hotty walks in, you know, in his towel,
and he's looking really cute and we make eyes and
I go back to my stretching. Now I'm sitting. If
you go to the steamroom, it has like two seats,
just like the bottom seating area and then like a
step above because it's hotter, you know, heat rises. So
(02:05):
I'm on the bottom one because I honey, I am
playing that and they heat is enough at the bottom.
I don't need to be at the top bottom anyways.
And he sits on the top. So I'm stretching, and
you know, then like when I stretch my neck to
the left, he's to my left and we catch eyes
a little bit and it's like, oh, this is a
little vibe happening. I'm like, all right, cool, cool, work
(02:26):
with work, and so I like stretch to the right,
stretch to the left. Little vibe is happening. And then
he like moves a little closer to me, and I'm like, oh, okay, listen,
I'm not a posed like I just worked out, like
you know, some of my workouts they do make me horny.
So I'm like, okay, So I scoot a little it's
closer to him, and now like his his thigh is
(02:47):
touching my elbow and I'm like, oh this is this
is cute, sexy whatever whatever. So it's clear that we
know we we are we we have an attraction to
each other. Suddenly my boy has his towel off, which
is fine, it's a steam room. And then I don't
know how to explain it. He props his knee up
on that top step. His leg is on the bottom
(03:09):
step where I'm at, and he is facing away from me.
All I'm getting, yes, is whole. It's just like his
ass and his hole in my face. And I'm like oh,
and he's like stretching and pushing it back and I'm like, oh,
it's only eleven ten on a Tuesday, but okay, work,
I mean, listen, it's a beautiful hole. I'm never gonna
(03:30):
say no to seeing a hole. Hello, how are you whole?
Nice to meet you. So he does that stretch and
then he sits down. We kind of look at each
other and then he like does his towel, puts it
back on, and then walks out and looks at me.
As he walks out, said, I know what that means.
He going to the shower. I say, he's going to
the shower. He wants me to follow. I'm not above
following you, so you know, put on my little towel,
(03:51):
I get up, I go out and make way to
the showers. And he chooses, of course, the shower that's
deep in the back, which is the most discreet. So
I choose a shower across from him. His curtain is
already a jar, and he is, you know, waiting for me.
I'm not going in there because listen, I'm not trying
to get you done my gym. So I go into too,
the shower across for me, and so we're like we
(04:14):
can see each other from our showers, and he's giving
me a show, teasing, teasing, teasing, and then all of
a sudden, I look across into his shower and he is, uh,
he's fucking himself with what if you ask?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I asked the same question.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Like I'm trying to do the mad because I'm like, wait,
what is in the shower that you got something in
your hole like this? Also it's eleven ten on a Tuesday.
How is your hole so clean and ready to be fun?
But it looks like it looks like whide I'm like,
is it the you know, cause the gym. This gym
provides you know, body wash and the shampoo, but those
(04:53):
things are like locked into the wall, like if you
go to a hotel, but it's a it looks similar
to that size. I like, did he take the thing off.
But it's not. But those bottles are are red and
the bottle he's holding is white. Baby, it was his
water bottle. It was the water bottle that he was
drinking the water out of in the steamroom because the
steam room was hot. It's the it was his baby.
(05:15):
He was fucking himself with his water bottle. And when
I the whole thing was up in there, Like I
who didn't know if I should be turned on or impressed,
I was both, if you will. But how impressive to
get a Poland spring bottle just up your hole at
eleven ten, baby America. I like, you know, it's a
(05:38):
free That's what it really meant to me. I was like, Wow,
we are in a free country, where liberated we can
at eleven ten on a Tuesday morning fuck ourselves with
a water bottle. Freedom, honey, that's free, dumb, and I
love to see it. So I was turned on and impressed,
you know, honestly, I wanted to be that water bottle.
By the way, welcome to the show. This is tell
me something messy. I am your host, Freda Kyle good min.
(06:01):
Some people call me Messy mother. You could call me
Desani Fitch Poland Spring. If you want to whatever you
want to call me, That's what I'm trying to be
because I was really really trying to be that water bottle.
But I also like my membership. But I wasn't trying
to get keep doing jim, so it didn't happen. But anyways,
just you know, Tuesday morning, whole play love it?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
How are you baby?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
You know what that means? It is time for a guest. Now,
while they get situated, we'll get our messy. Key Key
started with a Hoe manifest Stow repeat after me aloud
or in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack
my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know
that sex is not just about penetration, the audacity to
(06:48):
advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not
call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl or fuck
they for what It is better to masturbate by myself
in peace than to let someone play in my motherfucking face.
Let the community say ho helujah. I am so excited
to have TS motherfucker Madison on the show. TS Madison
(07:12):
is arguably one of the biggest names on social media
as an influencer, Her voice and likeness has found life
in mainstream media via music, television, and film with the
reality show we TV's The Ts Madison Experience My Favorite,
a talk show Fox Sol's Turned Out with Ts Madison,
a recurring role on the All Black Networks Hush, hosting
(07:32):
as a Damn This is Hope, Come on, this is
a resume godh Yes, hosting a permanent rotating judge on
RuPaul's Drag Race, and hosting Bring Back My Girls. She's
no stranger to television. Featured on Beyonce's renaissance album You
See I Wore My Little Cowboy Carter for You on
the track Cozy. Madison's reach is far and wide. Along
(07:54):
with her big presence and personality, is a big heart
with humor. Madison spends time engaging others on her social
platforms regarding LGBTQ plus issues and empowering her community to
be brave and smart. She lives always and forever loud,
live and in color. Y'all, please make some noise for
to you have some motherfucker bout us.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Hands together for the d old double ale. Honey, that's
called the doll Darling.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Hey ah, Okay, before we get into our messy key key.
We have some messy mandates, so things get to be unprocessed.
Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to evolve,
shift or change today, tomorrow, ten years from now. And
if during the key key something feels too personal or
unintentionally offense, we use the safe word foodsball, which gives
(08:43):
us a chance, you know, as a it's a sport
we talked about. I don't, but you understand. If something
comes up, just be like nigga stop, which gives us
a chance to pause and address or pivot accordingly. Sound
good baby?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yes, okay?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You like to play a lube breaker, A lube breaker,
A lube breakers. Yes, it's like an ice breaker, but
because we talk about sex here, it's called a lube breaker.
We call that we call a spit breaker. If you
want I.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Don't you know, Yeah, let's pay a quick game.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Okay, fuck mary? Block? Okay? So what you want to fuck?
What you want to marry? What you want to block?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Go ahead?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yes, hiking camping, cruise ship.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh, I'm sucking on the cruise ship.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
You're fucking on the cruise ship. So you're gonna the
cruise ship. What you're gonna marry with, Like, what is
the thing that you love that you're like, I want
every day? So it's hiking or.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Camping, cruise ship, cruise ship?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And what are you block?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So you're gonna block, I'm gonna block camping and hiking.
I ain't doing none of that.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
That's right, I'm black. Listen, I'm blocking the cruise ship
because I don't want to be out in the water
like that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's the listen. I love cruising.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You love, but I love cruising.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
But you know I love cruising because I used to
go on.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I've been all I've been all over the world, been
all over the world.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I cruised a lit I flew before I was flying.
I was doing a lot of cruising. Like I've been
to every Caribbean country. I've been to Europe. Like you cruise,
I've ship you like the cruise I'm going to cruise
with you.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I would go on a cruise.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Cruising me, baby, listen, we we we're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We're gonna get.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
One thing I could do. I could seduce me a
foreign motherfucker.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Teach me.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
I'm like, all right, I'm here and I'm hungry.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I need some potassium in my life.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Come on now, all right, Mary box, piss play, nipple play,
wax play.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay, I'm blocking pissed Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I like nest because I could ad I can get
my titties suck and I can come.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, so I can marry that. Okay, and you're gonna
try that. Wax play one good time? That fuck?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh? I like wags play.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh like a little hot wags on my back. I
actually like a little hot wags on my titties. I
remember this man d.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right by the way, y'all, there are candles for wax play.
Don't just be using your little uns. Use can get
the ones for wax play, all right? Last one position?
Would you fuck marry a block your positions? Sixty nine
y face off or flat iron? So face off is
(11:46):
like if if y'all are you know, they come around
you your waist or you on their waist, and flat
iron is my favorite. That's when I'm fat, flat on
my stomach and then they just on top of me.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I'm blocking that, looking.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I'm blocking that because that's what usually men want to
do because my ass is so big and trying to
tear me off like.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
That, and that's what I want. I want my I've
been working on this ass. I got this ask nice
and big because I went through the flat iron me.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I want listen, I like missionary. Is that what you call?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, that's a that's a that's a traditional traditional missionary.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So that I'm marrying so whatever the other if it's
like missionary, I'm marrying it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Okay, Okay, I'm marrying it.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And you're blocking the flat iron and you're gonna fuck
that sixty nine that one, good time, that sixty nine.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
I'm doing that because I I love to get my digsaw.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
God me too, but I also love that dick.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Okay, getting out here and get all that film stick,
that that potesting amount, that creamney, get that.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, here we go. This is so just recently, within
the last seventy two hours.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Uh huh, I had a reimagining of myself when it
comes down to the way that I see men that
like my genitalia. I just recently was in a in
a in a bit of a pickle when I was talking.
I was sharing experience about my experiences with dating a
(13:44):
trans man, and uh I recently talked about this on
my show podcast fact Talk, and uh I kind of
got into a little kerfuffle with the community, and one
of my sisters, her name is a fairy puss u
Bree kind of called me to the map and she said, uh, well, Madison,
(14:11):
you you still have your dick, so why would you
feel some type of way if a man desired that?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And I was like yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
To further elaborate, I used to think that men that
go that date the trans girls, that go after the
girls dick is gay and I wouldn't date them like datum.
I would only have fun sex and go about my business,
but I wouldn't take them serious.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And then and.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Then my girlfriend said to me, well, how does how
do you how does that? What does that say about
how you feel about your own body that's attached to you?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And I had to I had to.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Wait now.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
I was like, hold on, wait, wait, wait, I had to.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Do some I had to do some psycho evaluations after that, and.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
That was that's the last thing to two hours, so
you still processing.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I'm still processing it because it got pushed me so hard.
I was like, but wait, I had to think, cause
it's just like Massa, you don't have a pussy. And
even though I know that I don't have a pussy, Like,
how are you saying that certain aspects of what men
do with you until you makes them gay and then
(15:29):
certain aspects.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Don't or is there like an in between, like.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Madison, you have a dick.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So if so, just because a man comes in and
he wants to he wants to fuck you from the
back or fuck you in your ass, or or lay
you on your back and long dick, you girl that
that he's still the same man even if he got
on his knees and suped your dick. Because I used
to feel some type of way about the men that
suck that gave me head or that that that were
(15:58):
solely focused on my cop. Yeah, I felt the way.
I was like, I'm not gonna take those men serious.
It's like serious men like like not to say that
they're not men, but I wouldn't date them.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Because you wanted a straight man or what you would
deem a straight man. Yeah, got you. Do you still
feel that right now or are you still like kind
of unpacking that and navigating.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
I'm unpacking it because it's just like but ts, Yeah,
it's yours. So if the man comes in there and
he wants to have an experience with you, why are
you why are you judging him for having a full experience?
And why wouldn't you date him that? What does that
say about how you feel about yourself?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
One? Thank you for sharing all this because I think
it's it's That's why I love talking about sex, because
I think it's a reflection of how we see ourselves.
And I think that our relationship to our partners is
actually what is our relationship to ourselves? Yeah, And how
are we holding ourselves or valuing or devaluing ourselves? And
what are the labels that we put on ourselves and
then start to place on others? And I think that
as a as a black trans woman, you've been labeled
(17:02):
and boxed and all the things. You as Tis Madison
have broken out of it, but you've experienced the world
putting you. And so I've experienced, as a black, queer,
non binary person that that. And so it makes sense
that we would also do that that that mode of operation,
even though it might have been how we've been oppressed,
that we might still use that mode of operation in
(17:25):
our own lives, whether it's in sex, whether it's in
the boarderroom or elsewhere. How are you feeling about what
it's making you think about yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Because we as queer people have been raised in the
house with heterosexual people. We have adopted a lot of
their ideas.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
In two thousand percent, we've adopted so much of their.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
You know what's been indoctrinated in them, we've passed it
down to.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Their queer kids.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
And so this is why it's not impossible for us
as queer people or trans people to be trying as
phobic or homophobic, or it's not impossible for us usually because.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Sometimes we're more so. Sometimes we're the.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Worst worst And I'm one of those that can be
the worst because you cross me up, you all kind
of words I can't even they an't even fucking out.
So because I adopted a lot of those thoughts and
things like that, you know, it started maybe thinking like, well,
where's your massa. You've come into your identity, and you've
(18:27):
come into your identity. So because you've come into your identity, girl,
like you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Have to learn that. And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I was in a relationship with a gentleman a few
years back, like some years back. I didn't know that
he was as a verse as verse as a verse
as he was Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Until I went through his phone.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You went through matter what inspired you to go through
his phone?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Like what my spirit told me things?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I went through his phone and all, honey, he was
well versed in it was verse. He was into a
lot of he was into a lot of things, but
he didn't do certain those things, a lot of those
things with me.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Mmm, do you know that? Sometimes I forget what she
was watching. But one of the people they were it's
a show. It's a show about like Kinks. And so
the guy who was talking is into a lot of
Kinks and he has a girlfriend, and he was expressing
that he didn't do it with her because he felt
protective of her in a way, like there was some
(19:36):
shame inside of it what he was into, and so
he didn't do it with his girlfriend or tell his
girlfriend because he felt like he felt ashamed of it.
And so it wasn't that he didn't love his girlfriend
or wasn't into it, but this the kinks or the things,
he didn't want to bring her into it. He wanted
to keep her, for lack of a better, wholesome Exactly,
for lack of a better I wanted to be wholesome
(19:57):
with her and be like nasty on the other side,
as opposed to integrating. That said, if we want to
for a moment, let's pretend it's not somebody you're emotionally
related to it, and we're just talking about this person
who's behaving in this way. Is there a space to
see that there is shame in our sex and shame
and being afraid to talk about the things that you're
(20:21):
doing because you're afraid somebody's going to label you. To
bring it back to the first conversation, as gay as this,
as these things that you may not feel are who
you are. Again, it's not about right or this isn't
about right or wrong, like completely, there are morals and
ethics for sure, But if we take that out and
we just kind of look at the behavior from a
therapeutic standpoint, a psychological standpoint, like what is the brain doing?
(20:43):
What is the trauma that this body has been through
that causes them to behave in this way? Doesn't excuse it.
They should still be held accountable. I am curious about
how shame makes people hide to the point where they
end up making choices that are unsafe not only for
them but their partner. What does that making you feel?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
It's because I'm speaking from a place of experience. So
it's like I want the listeners out there to know
that I'm not generalized. I'm not making a general statement
saying that I'm speaking from my place of experience, like
you know, like when I was fooling around with this guy,
you know, and if I hadn't went through his phone,
they weren't going to tell me anything.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And what did that do to your trust?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Like I don't trust men anyway, so that didn't make
it no better. I'm a trans woman, so of course
my level of trust for men is very very very
very very very very.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Low, very very low.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yes, the ones that the ones that have loved us
has killed us, The ones that have that have you know,
gave us money of taking care of us, have been
the one that have wrapped a quarter around our throats
and choked us to death. Those shot us and killed us.
And you know what I'm saying. So my trust level
for a man isn't.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
It's not there out I'm gonna ask the question and
we can fumble through it. But how does that impact
how you make relations with people? With the like ask
somebody in your dating how does that impact how you
make those relations, how you build those relations?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, what it does is it makes me sit down
and have a realistic conversation with myself, a very realistic
conversation with myself, Madison.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
This man could potentially kill you one day. They might
be here for what you.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Can for the come up as all these things that
come up in my and when I have to sit
down and have a reality check with myself and a
reality a real conversation, you know, with myself, and then
move accordingly, like all right, well, how much of this
person do you expose yourself to? How much do you
expose yourself to this person? How much do you give?
(22:52):
How much do you let this person in your world?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
How much do you decide?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
It's a it's a case by case situation. I'm you know,
I really don't have any men that are very close
to me, except for like men that are that work
for me, like my bodyguard.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And you know he's very close to me. You met him,
did you see him?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
We're very close, Like, we're very close, but we're not
romantically involved and we're not sexually involved. So so the
stipulations on him are different because you know he's there
to do his job.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
But we are good friends, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
But other than that, I really don't have a lot
unless it's like my gay kids. Unless they're my kids,
then you know it's different. But I don't really have
men too many male companions that I when I have sex,
I probably have sex. I don't let them spend the night.
I don't trust going to sleep. I make sure when
(23:58):
they come in they're caught on camera.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You can see it.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
When they come in the house, You see them when
they leave in they have to park like where they're
whether you can get a full body skin.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
You know what I'm saying. I'm very protection.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
You're protective. How could you not be, I mean, with
how could you not be.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
With the state of all the ship that's going on
right now with the girls.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
You have to you have to be.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
And then it's like, well, Madison, why don't you date
a gay man, a man that identifies as gay but
likes the trains, or like a pan sexual man, why
don't you take that? And it's just like, well, we
were indoctrinated with a lot of the heteronormative ideas from
our people.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Like if you're gay, you're inferior. If you're gay, if
you're gay, you're a punk. If you're gay, you're not
a real man.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Right? That works on us. It like lives in our
it lives in our blood, and then we operate from
that space. Yeah, how do you undo that? Though? I mean, like,
because there are gay men who are very much very man,
how are you masculine? So like the preference is macho.
It really doesn't have anything to do with whether they're
gay or a pan. But how do we or how
(25:07):
do you? How do I kind of unlearn those ideas
that were planted in our household, that were planted in
our media, that were planted in the shows that we watched,
that that gay is in theory, that gay is not
a real man. How do you go about I'm learning that?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
You just try to have to You have to open
your mind up and say, I want to unlearn this.
I want to not live this way anymore, because this
one has hindered me from having either happiness or it
has hindered me from having friendships or living a real life.
(25:48):
Because I'm still governed by ideas that were not mine,
like they were passed to me. I'm still governed by this,
and so I have to say I don't want to
know this way no more.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, I always ask the question, who would I be
of society never got its hands on me. That, like
the work is is is identifying what you've been indoctrinated
with and then ask your like interrogate everything to the
point where you're like, what if this actually belongs to me?
And what if this belongs to my mom, my dad,
(26:22):
my community, like homophobes like, but what if this is mine?
And then keep on with that and drop the rest.
But it is a choice. I think that's the thing
you just said of like, you have to want to unlearn,
you have to want to heal. I think people think
that healing is like I'm just going to therapy a
lot and I'll figure it out, or I'll you know,
scroll online and read a bunch of memes and I'll
(26:44):
figure it out. But it's it's a choice, and it's
I think one of the most challenging choices because the
world around you is an opposition to it. Yeah, in
addition to the fact that, and we speak this to
your black trans women experience, not only is the world
in opposition, but like there is a reality there is
(27:05):
the danger is real, Like the things that you're coming
up against or the or the fears that you have
are grounded, right, like the fares that a lot of
us have are. They're not fake. They didn't come from it,
like they didn't come from the air. So then the
difficulty is discerning between what is real how do you
protect yourself? But then also how what do you let
go of so that you can fly.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I do know that in order for me to get
out of a box, I have to stop putting myself
in it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You can't appreciate.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
The way out.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
The fastest way out of a hole, uh huh is
to stop digging.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Wow, how many of us are still digging these shovels
that we weren't that aren't even ours. Somebody handed us
that shovel and we've been digging since we were in
the playground.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yes, digging, and it's just like girl out of there.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, what do you think is the first step? Like
if somebody else is listening to this and they're like, yeah,
I subscribe to all the heterosexual ideas and I gotta
get out of that. I gotta stop digging. And I
know and by the way, this is from your experience
and you're actually in the process of it, but what
(28:23):
has been or what do you think? What do you use?
Is kind of the first step to dropping the shovel.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
The first way to drop the shovel is realize that
you are in your own way.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You gotta realize that. And it's just like when you
look around, like and you're not dating, and you're you're
unhappy and you're you feel like it's just like, why
do you keep having these problems because you're doing the
same shit.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, you think you're.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Going to get a different outcome because the man is different.
His ideas are the same as the last one.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
M the pattern. You have to identify the pattern.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You gotta find the pattern. And it's just like the
is is what's helping you dig, you.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yes, I said that tall men are my red flag,
and like I know when I see a tall man
to like be suspicious that I will resolve into my
old patterns. Obviously not the same comparison, but this idea
that like knowing what your red flags are, knowing what
are the bad habits, so when you see it you
can go, oh, that is one of my bad things.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
That's what.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love, baby, It's they like I said, I look
up and the blood versus to my head and I
am not here, like I don't know how to all
the red flags look burgundy. You know what I'm saying,
Like I just be like, oh, that's so cute. This
is me. I don't but that I will say this.
The tall man thing is also something that was indoctrinated,
like that was given to me, this idea of like
(29:46):
watching you know, Disney movies, watching Little Mermaid, watching Beauty
and the Beasts, watch all these movies, and it's like
I wanted to be the princess. I wanted to be small,
and I wanted my partner to be like over, like
really tall and big. And as I explore it, I'm like, oh,
I'm into a whole lot of different types of people.
But that was my original choke hold was I want
(30:07):
somebody who is bigger than me. And I'm six one,
one hundred and eighty one hundred and eighty five pounds.
I'm big, So I finding somebody big, You find somebody
bigger than me is a is a journey. And then
I like, I become as you see me, I become
a clown, I become goofy. But can I also say
this before I forget this point when you say you
(30:29):
have to realize your patterns. I also think part of
that is how can you be gentle with yourself in
the realization, Because there's a reason the patterns exist, And
there's a reason that we have built these defenses, even
if they're not serving us. But there is a reason
that we built these defenses or that we're acting or
reacting in these ways. And it might be because of
(30:50):
our own trauma. It might be or it probably is
because of our own trauma or past experiences. And so
is there a way to in the choosing to drop
the shovel to be gentle that if you drop the
shovel and you pick it back up by accident, you
don't brate yourself or judge yourself that you go, oh shit,
I picked it up again, and can I gently drop it?
(31:10):
Like how can we not judge ourselves in the healing
process and say oh I should be this, or I
gotta be this, or I should be over there. But
to be gentle and know that like it's hard, like
this shit is hard, like being a human is hard.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
You just gotta tell yourself, like, girl, how old are you? Bitch?
Speaker 3 (31:27):
You forty something years old, forty six. It took it
took forty something years for you for.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
This stuff to be put in. It might take an
equal amount of time for it to come out.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
To get it out, Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It might take an equal amount of time to get out.
It's not gonna come out overnight or you're gonna You're
going to have to, but you have if you want
it to come out, bitch, you're gonna have to work
on it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And the work is, the work is forever. It's grief.
Right when we lose another loved one, That grief never
goes away. We are different and sometimes you're good and
sometimes you're not, but the grief never goes away. I
think the same is true. Pieces of us, pieces of
our beliefs, have to die, and there is a grief.
Whether that belief was good or not, it's still a grief,
(32:14):
and so it'll come up, it'll come back, and you
have to continue to be gentle, just because there are
things that I know about myself and know are true
about myself in ways that I treat myself, and there
are patterns that I fall back into from time to time,
and I have to be gracious enough to know that
it's been thirty seven years, babe, Like, is that thing
(32:36):
you've had since you were in the playground, Like, it's
not just gonna go away, It's not just Healing doesn't
mean that it's gone, right, It means that that you're
able to I always say, healing means you're able to
respond instead of react. Right, react is always an attack
or like there's a there's a chaos to the reaction,
but you can actually the thing comes and it might
still trigger you, but there's an ability for you to vombit,
(32:59):
to be am like, to suthe it.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
To like, oh bomb like a lip bomb.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
To bomb it, to soothe it, to relax it, to
respond to it. But I think this idea that it
just like goes away is like it doesn't. It doesn't
just disappear.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
No, it never does, you know, because even right now
with me talking about like you know, I steal them
over here like a girl, do you really want to me?
And motherfucking sucking your dig like that? And I'm like, bro,
I do. But just somebody that I'm jumping off with,
not nobody that I'm taking serious. Yeah, because in the
back of your him, in the back of my mind.
I'm like, you suck everybody dig.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Like, where does that belief come from? Like, where does that?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Oh this is gonna this is gonna be bad. Uh
Oh I was raised by women.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Mm hmmm same.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You know, women think that any time a man is
with something that's male or or has any male type
of anything, he yes, he's on the bottom. There's never
a top.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yes, I I now that you say that. I'm thinking
about being a kid raised by by three very incredible
black women. But the conversation around gay men or men
or the d L the d like you know, in
the nineties, like that term started coming out and there
was just such vitriol around uh the the that community
(34:21):
and like, oh he sucks sick like that then he's
this and like there was there Yeah, yeah, there was
such a wow, fuck Maddie. Yep, that is where that
comes from.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
It's something that ooh fuck yeah, that's like that says.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The women saying, O girl, you see that again, his
butt plugged in.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
A talk, that's the church talk.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
In his booty.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
And it's just like there are men, there are tops,
and there are bottoms, and there are.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Verses, and there are people who are by and there
are people and also, by the way, there are people.
There are straight men who like shit in their butt
and there's a process up there. It feels good, but
there's a mean they don't have to be kay, they
just like like a little dial though, like there's also
the space to explore.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So, yeah, my like women women. I learned that from women.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
And then it's just like, just like if a woman
thought that me and my bodyguard was together, the first
thing they're gonna say, oh, you know, like that man
ain't even own that kind of shit. And so but
but I told him yesterday while we were on the
telephone talking because that's my good friend, I said, you
know what I'm gonna stop doing.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I was doing a lot of protecting you because people see.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
How close we are and how you know that you
love me and we love each other whatever, and people
see how close we are, and I'm always quick to
say no, no, no, no, no no, no, we're not together.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
He's straight.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I told him. I said, I'm just gonna tell him
that we're not together because me saying that you're straight
invalidates me as being a woman.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And I'm going to stop doing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That because in your mind, it's validating that you see
me as a man, because what's wrong with being with
me as a straight man.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
There's nothing wrong with being with me as a straight nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Isn't it interesting? Like how so much of our responses
or our reactions and and and those things that we do,
especially like as queer folks, as trans folks, like protecting
quote unquote protecting your straight friends when somebody thinks that
you're dating them, you're like, no, no, like I'm gay straight,
Like we do that to I don't know, keep them
(36:34):
from the blows of homophobia, but that it's also so
rooted in perception and that we have to consciously work
at not caring what other people think because our default
is to, well, I don't want them to think, where
it's like, well think what the fuck you think? Like
we're good, Like it's we're fine, so like y'all can
think what you want to think. But we always feel
(36:55):
like we have to say something and explain ourselves and
explain our especially square folks, having to explain our existence,
having to explain our relationships, having to just not validate ourselves,
but justify why we're here, right, justify why I'm in,
why I'm allowed to walk with this person. Why this
person is friends, I have to like justify it in
(37:17):
some way, and that is just.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And I told him this, and I told him, I said,
I don't want you to get upset with me, because
if you will, you might as well stop being around
me and stop being my friend now. But I'm never
again saying that we're not together because you're straight.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm never saying it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
And again, yeah, never, there's no reason for us. We're
just not together, right. Our sexual orientation does not like
it doesn't our gender like. It's like, it's just we're
not together.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And it's not because in the moment and the moment
that you say it, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
To feel some type of way. I'm going to check
you in it.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, yes, by the way, I think that it's so
loving of you to loving of yourself and to go
back to our trusting of men. It's really what's the
word I want to use, there's like a there's it's
brave and courageous and loving to give him an opportunity
to show up for you in that way. Do you
(38:12):
know what I'm saying. It's it's a chance, It's like
that is a deepening of the bond.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
That's probably the only man that I've opened up to
and like been close with. And I think it's because
there is no romantic ties or no sexual ties to it,
so there's like nothing there like that.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
It's gonna the sex feel lower.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, he's there because he works for me. He trying
to hurt me. He ain't trying to fuck me. He's
trying to fuck over me and fuck my friends.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I always try to encourage people to get.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
In sex work and get out because if you're truly
in sex work, you have you have to turn all
your feelings and emotions and you know, you have to
turn that off. You have to turn all of that
ship off.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
And then when you're out, like because I'm not in
it anymore, I'm just now coming back to getting.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
The feelings back.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Like it's kind of like when your foot goes to
sleep and you and or your lego sleeping, it's dead
tingling and when all the nerves are coming back. Sure,
that's where I'm at now, Like that's how And I
told my bodyguard that, like I said, that's why I'm
with you, Like my nerves are coming back, you know,
enough for me to even be your friend this close.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Right, I was numb.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I was numb to to like, I'm just really receiving people.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Saying I love you.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I'm like, why right, Because that's how it had to
be your operating system, because that's what people were doing
with you and to you, and and and so now
you're like, you're in a different you're in a different
season of your life, and so there are new things
to adjust. But doesn't mean the old operating system isn't
still active, isn't still in some ways running the ship? Yeah? Is.
(40:00):
I think the hardest part of growth is having to
even though whether the old operating system serves us or
not is kind of irrelevant. It's familiar and it's known,
and the idea of releasing it to step into the unknown,
especially if you're part of a community that is not
safe in general, I can imagine that that is a
big leap.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Huge And this is something that I have to deal
with every day, even like when I'm dealing with people,
like I'm dealing with just receiving emotions, like receiving love,
receiving like like I'm learning how to respond back to
that with feeling.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
But I think the beauty of it is that you're
aware of it. You understand that there is a shovel,
You understand that there is a hole that's being digged,
and I think you're doing I mean, it's like we
said earlier. It doesn't happen overnight. It might take the
next forty seven years, but you will feel that love
and receive that love. What do you desire like for
yourself and and for your romantic space? Like if I
could wave a magic wand like what what is your
(41:01):
desire for yourself and for your relationship? Like when you
think about, oh, I've dropped the shovel and I've moved forward,
Like what does that look like for you? Or what
do you hope?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It looks like a gentleman that doesn't have to lie
to kick it with me. It looks like me and
a person actually having a great romantic relationship, and not
just a great romantic relationship, but you know, also building
with each other. This is gonna sound fucked up, but
(41:37):
just like a traditional a traditional husband and wife, good
man relationship, like a good.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Man Hmm, it doesn't sound sucked up. It sounds like
you want safety.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
If a one could be waived, because right now I'm
in a space of I'll fuck around when I'm horny,
and you know we're friends. You know we're friends with
benefits here and there and go home because you that
lady problem.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
You're not mine, but you want that safety, You want
that tradition. You want that.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I would like that, but unfortunately that does not exist
for me.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Do you think it ever will?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
No?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Can I ask why? I'm not saying that you're right
or wrong, but can I ask why?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Well, I'm forty seven. It ain't happen. It's long and
this far, this doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
But what if you have like forty seven more years?
You don't think that there's.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Who we'd have to see it in forty seven years.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I love you, and I'm so grateful for this conversation
and for the way that you always use your experiences
and your heart to not only entertain and educate, but
to make people feel seen and less alone on their journey.
Your willingness to give the honest, raw, vulnerable truth. I
(43:01):
think it's healing, but you I want. I want that
dream for you, and I see it for you, and
so I'm gonna hold it, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I'm gonna hold it for me.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
For you, and I'm gonna keep telling you I love you.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I love you too, because I know you do. I
believe it, we feel it like when we you know
we I know it. I receive it.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
It's because I'm open to receiving it now in a
real space like I wasn't open before the receiving it
because it's just like, you know, even when I hugged,
when I've hugged people back then.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
It was really a hug and it was just like
it was an emotionless hug.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
You know what I'm saying, Yes, yeah, just like dry
you know, it's like that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Now I can do a hug. I can embrace in
that hug, I can.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Hold it, fall into the hug.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Receive it, like receive it.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Because you deserve that. And that's that thing we're talking
about at the very beginning, about what do you believe
about your body? What do you believe about yourself? And
I feel like that's the work. That's why I'm so
grateful for this conversation because I know a lot of
people listening are in that work of interrogating how they
see themselves so if they can receive that love, because
that receiving of love is also a reflection of how
(44:17):
we love ourselves too, like to what to what extent
are we able to love ourselves? Because if I know,
I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, push back
on me. But I think that, like, if I know
to my core that I love all of it, then
I'm not surprised that you love it too. Is that correct?
I don't know if that's right. That's correct? Right? If
I love all of this, then I'm not surprised by
(44:40):
you saying you love me, because it's like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
And I love me a lot because oh you do.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
WHI yes, listen, big fast sexy, motherfucking big fast sex.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I get that all day.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I am so grateful to you and that I love
you and that I see, I see that traditional future.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
Come on, my god, my god.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I see love for you. I see that made that
good man, that you trust, that you feel safe with,
that you can breathe with, because you are worthy of it,
you deserve it, and you are the the the ways
in which you give, the experiences that you've had, and
your ability to still show up as generous and as
loving and it's kind. I mean, for from the first
(46:01):
time we connected, you were just big love for me.
It was it was it was like immediately immediately, and
that has always been your energy.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
And so because I thought you were so handsome.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Like you were being here. You know that we are
hose here, but we are hoes with heart. So let
me speak to yours. I'm so grateful for Maddie because
she's on her journey, and to share one's journey when
they're in the middle of a healing process or at
the beginning or the end or whatever it is, is
(46:39):
terrifying and scary. Uh, and it's vulnerable, but it's it's
so important for us to talk about these things, to
talk about what we're going through, obviously in safe spaces,
but to lean on our community to have the difficult
conversation so that we know that we're not alone. I'm
so moved by not just the honesty, but just like
(47:02):
the wisdom of we are all digging and we are
I mean, I know you feel that, I feel it
always always just like digging these holes. But with these
shovels that do not belong to us, how do we
drop the shovel We talked a bit about that. I
don't think there's a clear path. I think everyone's going
to have to figure out how they drop their own shovel.
(47:24):
But I think you have to know that you're probably
going to pick it back up. If I can leave
you with something, it's that you're probably going to pick
it back up, and that's okay. You'll drop it again,
and you'll be aware of when you pick it up sooner,
and that is growth, right. It's the goal is not perfection.
The goal is not to be perfectly healed. I remember
(47:44):
I had a friend when I first moved to La
and I was talking about all my big dreams, and
then she said, the journey is the goal that the
testimony is in going through the trials and tribulations. It's
not necessarily at the completion of it. So be gentle
with yourself as you navigate the shovels. Kalno, some of
(48:04):
us are digging several holes at once. As you navigate
the shovels, as you navigate how you put them down,
as you pick them back up. Be gentle with yourself
and whoever you are, wherever you are, you deserve love.
You deserve the love you want, and you see for yourself.
It may not happen right now, it may happen in
(48:25):
a year ten years twenty. Whenever it happens, it happens.
But just know that no matter what you deserve it,
you're worthy of it, and I'm rooting for you to
get it. I love you. You can find Maddie on
Instagram at ts Madison. Find me on Instagram at Brandon
called Goodman. Find this podcast and tell me something messy. Also,
(48:46):
please join our commy unity on the Messy Mondays sub stack.
When you subscribe, you will get weekly posts on sex,
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also we're just like trying to build out how we
as a pot podcast community can talk and communicate with
each other and continue these conversations that we have here. Also,
(49:06):
you know I want to hear from you, so send
your topic ideas or submissions or if you had a
foosball moment, I want to hear about that, So you
can email that to tell me something Messy at gmail
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(49:29):
all your hoe or aspiring ho friends. It really helps
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I really hope that you're enjoying it and give it
five stars. Don't play me. I will find you baby. Okay, okay,
Well that is the show until we meet again. Ask
about the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Make sure they eat the kitty, before they beat the kitty,
before fucation or suckcation. There should be communication and the
(49:53):
Just in case you haven't heard it yet, today you
are so deeply loved. I love you. Thank you so
much for listening to tell Me Something Messy. If you
all enjoyed the show, send me episode to someone else
who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive
produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins and Yours Truly. Our
(50:15):
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I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, push back
on me. If I know to my core that if
I if I love all of this, then I'm not
surprised by you saying you love me, because it's like, yeah,
(00:24):
let me just spill this to you. So I go
to the gym, and at the gym there is a
steam room, and I am no stranger to steamroom antics,
you know, whether it's at a gay spot or at
the gym. You know, I understand the politics of a
steam room in a men's locker room right that there
will be some freaky digy things that might go down,
(00:44):
and I don't I don't care because I'm really just
in there doing my physical therapy exercises for my neck
and my hip. I'm doing my neck snags, I'm doing
my you know, my little figure fours. Is that what
they call face? Or you put the ankle on your
knee and you bend over, open your hip.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I'm in they're doing that, But I'm not opposed to
the freaky deck shit that happens in there, whether I'm
part of it or witnessing it, I don't mind. Like,
do you think you know America do you shood? You
know what I'm saying. The other day, I head to
the steamroom. I opened the door and these two hotties
I could smell that they were they were they were
already getting for you dick. I know, I know when
(01:20):
dicks are being touched. It's like a sixth sense of mind.
I know when the dick is being touched. And so
the dicks were clearly being touched, and they were trying
to like act cool, and I'm like, babe, like I
don't give a fuck. Do you think I'm just gonna
sit over here and stretch my neck? So I sit down,
I start to stretch my neck. The first hottie you know,
fixes his towel, he walks out. Two seconds later, the
second hotty fixes his towel, walks out. That is confirmation
(01:42):
that dicks were being touched. So now it's just me
in the steamroom stretching my neck. The door opens and
another little hotty walks in, you know, in his towel,
and he's looking really cute and we make eyes and
I go back to my stretching. Now I'm sitting. If
you go to the steamroom, it has like two seats,
just like the bottom seating area and then like a
step above because it's hotter, you know, heat rises. So
(02:05):
I'm on the bottom one because I honey, I am
playing that and they heat is enough at the bottom.
I don't need to be at the top bottom anyways.
And he sits on the top. So I'm stretching, and
you know, then like when I stretch my neck to
the left, he's to my left and we catch eyes
a little bit and it's like, oh, this is a
little vibe happening. I'm like, all right, cool, cool, work
(02:26):
with work, and so I like stretch to the right,
stretch to the left. Little vibe is happening. And then
he like moves a little closer to me, and I'm like, oh, okay, listen,
I'm not a posed like I just worked out, like
you know, some of my workouts they do make me horny.
So I'm like, okay, So I scoot a little it's
closer to him, and now like his his thigh is
(02:47):
touching my elbow and I'm like, oh this is this
is cute, sexy whatever whatever. So it's clear that we
know we we are we we have an attraction to
each other. Suddenly my boy has his towel off, which
is fine, it's a steam room. And then I don't
know how to explain it. He props his knee up
on that top step. His leg is on the bottom
(03:09):
step where I'm at, and he is facing away from me.
All I'm getting, yes, is whole. It's just like his
ass and his hole in my face. And I'm like oh,
and he's like stretching and pushing it back and I'm like, oh,
it's only eleven ten on a Tuesday, but okay, work,
I mean, listen, it's a beautiful hole. I'm never gonna
(03:30):
say no to seeing a hole. Hello, how are you whole?
Nice to meet you. So he does that stretch and
then he sits down. We kind of look at each
other and then he like does his towel, puts it
back on, and then walks out and looks at me.
As he walks out, said, I know what that means.
He going to the shower. I say, he's going to
the shower. He wants me to follow. I'm not above
following you, so you know, put on my little towel,
(03:51):
I get up, I go out and make way to
the showers. And he chooses, of course, the shower that's
deep in the back, which is the most discreet. So
I choose a shower across from him. His curtain is
already a jar, and he is, you know, waiting for me.
I'm not going in there because listen, I'm not trying
to get you done my gym. So I go into too,
the shower across for me, and so we're like we
(04:14):
can see each other from our showers, and he's giving
me a show, teasing, teasing, teasing, and then all of
a sudden, I look across into his shower and he is, uh,
he's fucking himself with what if you ask?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I asked the same question.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Like I'm trying to do the mad because I'm like, wait,
what is in the shower that you got something in
your hole like this? Also it's eleven ten on a Tuesday.
How is your hole so clean and ready to be fun?
But it looks like it looks like whide I'm like,
is it the you know, cause the gym. This gym
provides you know, body wash and the shampoo, but those
(04:53):
things are like locked into the wall, like if you
go to a hotel, but it's a it looks similar
to that size. I like, did he take the thing off.
But it's not. But those bottles are are red and
the bottle he's holding is white. Baby, it was his
water bottle. It was the water bottle that he was
drinking the water out of in the steamroom because the
steam room was hot. It's the it was his baby.
(05:15):
He was fucking himself with his water bottle. And when
I the whole thing was up in there, Like I
who didn't know if I should be turned on or impressed,
I was both, if you will. But how impressive to
get a Poland spring bottle just up your hole at
eleven ten, baby America. I like, you know, it's a
(05:38):
free That's what it really meant to me. I was like, Wow,
we are in a free country, where liberated we can
at eleven ten on a Tuesday morning fuck ourselves with
a water bottle. Freedom, honey, that's free, dumb, and I
love to see it. So I was turned on and impressed,
you know, honestly, I wanted to be that water bottle.
By the way, welcome to the show. This is tell
me something messy. I am your host, Freda Kyle good min.
(06:01):
Some people call me Messy mother. You could call me
Desani Fitch Poland Spring. If you want to whatever you
want to call me, That's what I'm trying to be
because I was really really trying to be that water bottle.
But I also like my membership. But I wasn't trying
to get keep doing jim, so it didn't happen. But anyways,
just you know, Tuesday morning, whole play love it?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
How are you baby?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
You know what that means? It is time for a guest. Now,
while they get situated, we'll get our messy. Key Key
started with a Hoe manifest Stow repeat after me aloud
or in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack
my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know
that sex is not just about penetration, the audacity to
(06:48):
advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not
call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl or fuck
they for what It is better to masturbate by myself
in peace than to let someone play in my motherfucking face.
Let the community say ho helujah. I am so excited
to have TS motherfucker Madison on the show. TS Madison
(07:12):
is arguably one of the biggest names on social media
as an influencer, Her voice and likeness has found life
in mainstream media via music, television, and film with the
reality show we TV's The Ts Madison Experience My Favorite,
a talk show Fox Sol's Turned Out with Ts Madison,
a recurring role on the All Black Networks Hush, hosting
(07:32):
as a Damn This is Hope, Come on, this is
a resume godh Yes, hosting a permanent rotating judge on
RuPaul's Drag Race, and hosting Bring Back My Girls. She's
no stranger to television. Featured on Beyonce's renaissance album You
See I Wore My Little Cowboy Carter for You on
the track Cozy. Madison's reach is far and wide. Along
(07:54):
with her big presence and personality, is a big heart
with humor. Madison spends time engaging others on her social
platforms regarding LGBTQ plus issues and empowering her community to
be brave and smart. She lives always and forever loud,
live and in color. Y'all, please make some noise for
to you have some motherfucker bout us.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Hands together for the d old double ale. Honey, that's
called the doll Darling.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Hey ah, Okay, before we get into our messy key key.
We have some messy mandates, so things get to be unprocessed.
Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to evolve,
shift or change today, tomorrow, ten years from now. And
if during the key key something feels too personal or
unintentionally offense, we use the safe word foodsball, which gives
(08:43):
us a chance, you know, as a it's a sport
we talked about. I don't, but you understand. If something
comes up, just be like nigga stop, which gives us
a chance to pause and address or pivot accordingly. Sound
good baby?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yes, okay?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You like to play a lube breaker, A lube breaker,
A lube breakers. Yes, it's like an ice breaker, but
because we talk about sex here, it's called a lube breaker.
We call that we call a spit breaker. If you
want I.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Don't you know, Yeah, let's pay a quick game.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Okay, fuck mary? Block? Okay? So what you want to fuck?
What you want to marry? What you want to block?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Go ahead?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yes, hiking camping, cruise ship.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh, I'm sucking on the cruise ship.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
You're fucking on the cruise ship. So you're gonna the
cruise ship. What you're gonna marry with, Like, what is
the thing that you love that you're like, I want
every day? So it's hiking or.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Camping, cruise ship, cruise ship?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And what are you block?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So you're gonna block, I'm gonna block camping and hiking.
I ain't doing none of that.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
That's right, I'm black. Listen, I'm blocking the cruise ship
because I don't want to be out in the water
like that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's the listen. I love cruising.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You love, but I love cruising.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
But you know I love cruising because I used to
go on.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I've been all I've been all over the world, been
all over the world.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I cruised a lit I flew before I was flying.
I was doing a lot of cruising. Like I've been
to every Caribbean country. I've been to Europe. Like you cruise,
I've ship you like the cruise I'm going to cruise
with you.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I would go on a cruise.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Cruising me, baby, listen, we we we're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We're gonna get.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
One thing I could do. I could seduce me a
foreign motherfucker.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Teach me.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
I'm like, all right, I'm here and I'm hungry.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I need some potassium in my life.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Come on now, all right, Mary box, piss play, nipple play,
wax play.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay, I'm blocking pissed Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I like nest because I could ad I can get
my titties suck and I can come.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, so I can marry that. Okay, and you're gonna
try that. Wax play one good time? That fuck?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh? I like wags play.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh like a little hot wags on my back. I
actually like a little hot wags on my titties. I
remember this man d.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Right by the way, y'all, there are candles for wax play.
Don't just be using your little uns. Use can get
the ones for wax play, all right? Last one position?
Would you fuck marry a block your positions? Sixty nine
y face off or flat iron? So face off is
(11:46):
like if if y'all are you know, they come around
you your waist or you on their waist, and flat
iron is my favorite. That's when I'm fat, flat on
my stomach and then they just on top of me.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I'm blocking that, looking.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I'm blocking that because that's what usually men want to
do because my ass is so big and trying to
tear me off like.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
That, and that's what I want. I want my I've
been working on this ass. I got this ask nice
and big because I went through the flat iron me.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I want listen, I like missionary. Is that what you call?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, that's a that's a that's a traditional traditional missionary.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So that I'm marrying so whatever the other if it's
like missionary, I'm marrying it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Okay, Okay, I'm marrying it.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And you're blocking the flat iron and you're gonna fuck
that sixty nine that one, good time, that sixty nine.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
I'm doing that because I I love to get my digsaw.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
God me too, but I also love that dick.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Okay, getting out here and get all that film stick,
that that potesting amount, that creamney, get that.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, here we go. This is so just recently, within
the last seventy two hours.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Uh huh, I had a reimagining of myself when it
comes down to the way that I see men that
like my genitalia. I just recently was in a in
a in a bit of a pickle when I was talking.
I was sharing experience about my experiences with dating a
(13:44):
trans man, and uh I recently talked about this on
my show podcast fact Talk, and uh I kind of
got into a little kerfuffle with the community, and one
of my sisters, her name is a fairy puss u
Bree kind of called me to the map and she said, uh, well, Madison,
(14:11):
you you still have your dick, so why would you
feel some type of way if a man desired that?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And I was like yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
To further elaborate, I used to think that men that
go that date the trans girls, that go after the
girls dick is gay and I wouldn't date them like datum.
I would only have fun sex and go about my business,
but I wouldn't take them serious.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And then and.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Then my girlfriend said to me, well, how does how
do you how does that? What does that say about
how you feel about your own body that's attached to you?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And I had to I had to.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Wait now.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
I was like, hold on, wait, wait, wait, I had to.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Do some I had to do some psycho evaluations after that, and.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
That was that's the last thing to two hours, so
you still processing.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I'm still processing it because it got pushed me so hard.
I was like, but wait, I had to think, cause
it's just like Massa, you don't have a pussy. And
even though I know that I don't have a pussy, Like,
how are you saying that certain aspects of what men
do with you until you makes them gay and then
(15:29):
certain aspects.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Don't or is there like an in between, like.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Madison, you have a dick.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So if so, just because a man comes in and
he wants to he wants to fuck you from the
back or fuck you in your ass, or or lay
you on your back and long dick, you girl that
that he's still the same man even if he got
on his knees and suped your dick. Because I used
to feel some type of way about the men that
suck that gave me head or that that that were
(15:58):
solely focused on my cop. Yeah, I felt the way.
I was like, I'm not gonna take those men serious.
It's like serious men like like not to say that
they're not men, but I wouldn't date them.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Because you wanted a straight man or what you would
deem a straight man. Yeah, got you. Do you still
feel that right now or are you still like kind
of unpacking that and navigating.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
I'm unpacking it because it's just like but ts, Yeah,
it's yours. So if the man comes in there and
he wants to have an experience with you, why are
you why are you judging him for having a full experience?
And why wouldn't you date him that? What does that
say about how you feel about yourself?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
One? Thank you for sharing all this because I think
it's it's That's why I love talking about sex, because
I think it's a reflection of how we see ourselves.
And I think that our relationship to our partners is
actually what is our relationship to ourselves? Yeah, And how
are we holding ourselves or valuing or devaluing ourselves? And
what are the labels that we put on ourselves and
then start to place on others? And I think that
as a as a black trans woman, you've been labeled
(17:02):
and boxed and all the things. You as Tis Madison
have broken out of it, but you've experienced the world
putting you. And so I've experienced, as a black, queer,
non binary person that that. And so it makes sense
that we would also do that that that mode of operation,
even though it might have been how we've been oppressed,
that we might still use that mode of operation in
(17:25):
our own lives, whether it's in sex, whether it's in
the boarderroom or elsewhere. How are you feeling about what
it's making you think about yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Because we as queer people have been raised in the
house with heterosexual people. We have adopted a lot of
their ideas.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
In two thousand percent, we've adopted so much of their.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
You know what's been indoctrinated in them, we've passed it
down to.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Their queer kids.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
And so this is why it's not impossible for us
as queer people or trans people to be trying as
phobic or homophobic, or it's not impossible for us usually because.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Sometimes we're more so. Sometimes we're the.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Worst worst And I'm one of those that can be
the worst because you cross me up, you all kind
of words I can't even they an't even fucking out.
So because I adopted a lot of those thoughts and
things like that, you know, it started maybe thinking like, well,
where's your massa. You've come into your identity, and you've
(18:27):
come into your identity. So because you've come into your identity, girl,
like you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Have to learn that. And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I was in a relationship with a gentleman a few
years back, like some years back. I didn't know that
he was as a verse as verse as a verse
as he was Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Until I went through his phone.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You went through matter what inspired you to go through
his phone?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Like what my spirit told me things?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I went through his phone and all, honey, he was
well versed in it was verse. He was into a
lot of he was into a lot of things, but
he didn't do certain those things, a lot of those
things with me.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Mmm, do you know that? Sometimes I forget what she
was watching. But one of the people they were it's
a show. It's a show about like Kinks. And so
the guy who was talking is into a lot of
Kinks and he has a girlfriend, and he was expressing
that he didn't do it with her because he felt
protective of her in a way, like there was some
(19:36):
shame inside of it what he was into, and so
he didn't do it with his girlfriend or tell his
girlfriend because he felt like he felt ashamed of it.
And so it wasn't that he didn't love his girlfriend
or wasn't into it, but this the kinks or the things,
he didn't want to bring her into it. He wanted
to keep her, for lack of a better, wholesome Exactly,
for lack of a better I wanted to be wholesome
(19:57):
with her and be like nasty on the other side,
as opposed to integrating. That said, if we want to
for a moment, let's pretend it's not somebody you're emotionally
related to it, and we're just talking about this person
who's behaving in this way. Is there a space to
see that there is shame in our sex and shame
and being afraid to talk about the things that you're
(20:21):
doing because you're afraid somebody's going to label you. To
bring it back to the first conversation, as gay as this,
as these things that you may not feel are who
you are. Again, it's not about right or this isn't
about right or wrong, like completely, there are morals and
ethics for sure, But if we take that out and
we just kind of look at the behavior from a
therapeutic standpoint, a psychological standpoint, like what is the brain doing?
(20:43):
What is the trauma that this body has been through
that causes them to behave in this way? Doesn't excuse it.
They should still be held accountable. I am curious about
how shame makes people hide to the point where they
end up making choices that are unsafe not only for
them but their partner. What does that making you feel?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
It's because I'm speaking from a place of experience. So
it's like I want the listeners out there to know
that I'm not generalized. I'm not making a general statement
saying that I'm speaking from my place of experience, like
you know, like when I was fooling around with this guy,
you know, and if I hadn't went through his phone,
they weren't going to tell me anything.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And what did that do to your trust?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Like I don't trust men anyway, so that didn't make
it no better. I'm a trans woman, so of course
my level of trust for men is very very very
very very very very.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Low, very very low.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yes, the ones that the ones that have loved us
has killed us, The ones that have that have you know,
gave us money of taking care of us, have been
the one that have wrapped a quarter around our throats
and choked us to death. Those shot us and killed us.
And you know what I'm saying. So my trust level
for a man isn't.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
It's not there out I'm gonna ask the question and
we can fumble through it. But how does that impact
how you make relations with people? With the like ask
somebody in your dating how does that impact how you
make those relations, how you build those relations?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, what it does is it makes me sit down
and have a realistic conversation with myself, a very realistic
conversation with myself, Madison.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
This man could potentially kill you one day. They might
be here for what you.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Can for the come up as all these things that
come up in my and when I have to sit
down and have a reality check with myself and a
reality a real conversation, you know, with myself, and then
move accordingly, like all right, well, how much of this
person do you expose yourself to? How much do you
expose yourself to this person? How much do you give?
(22:52):
How much do you let this person in your world?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
How much do you decide?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
It's a it's a case by case situation. I'm you know,
I really don't have any men that are very close
to me, except for like men that are that work
for me, like my bodyguard.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And you know he's very close to me. You met him,
did you see him?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
We're very close, Like, we're very close, but we're not
romantically involved and we're not sexually involved. So so the
stipulations on him are different because you know he's there
to do his job.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
But we are good friends, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
But other than that, I really don't have a lot
unless it's like my gay kids. Unless they're my kids,
then you know it's different. But I don't really have
men too many male companions that I when I have sex,
I probably have sex. I don't let them spend the night.
I don't trust going to sleep. I make sure when
(23:58):
they come in they're caught on camera.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You can see it.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
When they come in the house, You see them when
they leave in they have to park like where they're
whether you can get a full body skin.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
You know what I'm saying. I'm very protection.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
You're protective. How could you not be, I mean, with
how could you not be.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
With the state of all the ship that's going on
right now with the girls.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
You have to you have to be.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
And then it's like, well, Madison, why don't you date
a gay man, a man that identifies as gay but
likes the trains, or like a pan sexual man, why
don't you take that? And it's just like, well, we
were indoctrinated with a lot of the heteronormative ideas from
our people.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Like if you're gay, you're inferior. If you're gay, if
you're gay, you're a punk. If you're gay, you're not
a real man.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Right? That works on us. It like lives in our
it lives in our blood, and then we operate from
that space. Yeah, how do you undo that? Though? I mean, like,
because there are gay men who are very much very man,
how are you masculine? So like the preference is macho.
It really doesn't have anything to do with whether they're
gay or a pan. But how do we or how
(25:07):
do you? How do I kind of unlearn those ideas
that were planted in our household, that were planted in
our media, that were planted in the shows that we watched,
that that gay is in theory, that gay is not
a real man. How do you go about I'm learning that?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
You just try to have to You have to open
your mind up and say, I want to unlearn this.
I want to not live this way anymore, because this
one has hindered me from having either happiness or it
has hindered me from having friendships or living a real life.
(25:48):
Because I'm still governed by ideas that were not mine,
like they were passed to me. I'm still governed by this,
and so I have to say I don't want to
know this way no more.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, I always ask the question, who would I be
of society never got its hands on me. That, like
the work is is is identifying what you've been indoctrinated
with and then ask your like interrogate everything to the
point where you're like, what if this actually belongs to me?
And what if this belongs to my mom, my dad,
(26:22):
my community, like homophobes like, but what if this is mine?
And then keep on with that and drop the rest.
But it is a choice. I think that's the thing
you just said of like, you have to want to unlearn,
you have to want to heal. I think people think
that healing is like I'm just going to therapy a
lot and I'll figure it out, or I'll you know,
scroll online and read a bunch of memes and I'll
(26:44):
figure it out. But it's it's a choice, and it's
I think one of the most challenging choices because the
world around you is an opposition to it. Yeah, in
addition to the fact that, and we speak this to
your black trans women experience, not only is the world
in opposition, but like there is a reality there is
(27:05):
the danger is real, Like the things that you're coming
up against or the or the fears that you have
are grounded, right, like the fares that a lot of
us have are. They're not fake. They didn't come from it,
like they didn't come from the air. So then the
difficulty is discerning between what is real how do you
protect yourself? But then also how what do you let
go of so that you can fly.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I do know that in order for me to get
out of a box, I have to stop putting myself
in it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You can't appreciate.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
The way out.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
The fastest way out of a hole, uh huh is
to stop digging.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Wow, how many of us are still digging these shovels
that we weren't that aren't even ours. Somebody handed us
that shovel and we've been digging since we were in
the playground.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yes, digging, and it's just like girl out of there.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, what do you think is the first step? Like
if somebody else is listening to this and they're like, yeah,
I subscribe to all the heterosexual ideas and I gotta
get out of that. I gotta stop digging. And I
know and by the way, this is from your experience
and you're actually in the process of it, but what
(28:23):
has been or what do you think? What do you use?
Is kind of the first step to dropping the shovel.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
The first way to drop the shovel is realize that
you are in your own way.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You gotta realize that. And it's just like when you
look around, like and you're not dating, and you're you're
unhappy and you're you feel like it's just like, why
do you keep having these problems because you're doing the
same shit.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, you think you're.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Going to get a different outcome because the man is different.
His ideas are the same as the last one.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
M the pattern. You have to identify the pattern.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You gotta find the pattern. And it's just like the
is is what's helping you dig, you.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yes, I said that tall men are my red flag,
and like I know when I see a tall man
to like be suspicious that I will resolve into my
old patterns. Obviously not the same comparison, but this idea
that like knowing what your red flags are, knowing what
are the bad habits, so when you see it you
can go, oh, that is one of my bad things.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
That's what.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love, baby, It's they like I said, I look
up and the blood versus to my head and I
am not here, like I don't know how to all
the red flags look burgundy. You know what I'm saying,
Like I just be like, oh, that's so cute. This
is me. I don't but that I will say this.
The tall man thing is also something that was indoctrinated,
like that was given to me, this idea of like
(29:46):
watching you know, Disney movies, watching Little Mermaid, watching Beauty
and the Beasts, watch all these movies, and it's like
I wanted to be the princess. I wanted to be small,
and I wanted my partner to be like over, like
really tall and big. And as I explore it, I'm like, oh,
I'm into a whole lot of different types of people.
But that was my original choke hold was I want
(30:07):
somebody who is bigger than me. And I'm six one,
one hundred and eighty one hundred and eighty five pounds.
I'm big, So I finding somebody big, You find somebody
bigger than me is a is a journey. And then
I like, I become as you see me, I become
a clown, I become goofy. But can I also say
this before I forget this point when you say you
(30:29):
have to realize your patterns. I also think part of
that is how can you be gentle with yourself in
the realization, Because there's a reason the patterns exist, And
there's a reason that we have built these defenses, even
if they're not serving us. But there is a reason
that we built these defenses or that we're acting or
reacting in these ways. And it might be because of
(30:50):
our own trauma. It might be or it probably is
because of our own trauma or past experiences. And so
is there a way to in the choosing to drop
the shovel to be gentle that if you drop the
shovel and you pick it back up by accident, you
don't brate yourself or judge yourself that you go, oh shit,
I picked it up again, and can I gently drop it?
(31:10):
Like how can we not judge ourselves in the healing
process and say oh I should be this, or I
gotta be this, or I should be over there. But
to be gentle and know that like it's hard, like
this shit is hard, like being a human is hard.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
You just gotta tell yourself, like, girl, how old are you? Bitch?
Speaker 3 (31:27):
You forty something years old, forty six. It took it
took forty something years for you for.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
This stuff to be put in. It might take an
equal amount of time for it to come out.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
To get it out, Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It might take an equal amount of time to get out.
It's not gonna come out overnight or you're gonna You're
going to have to, but you have if you want
it to come out, bitch, you're gonna have to work
on it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And the work is, the work is forever. It's grief.
Right when we lose another loved one, That grief never
goes away. We are different and sometimes you're good and
sometimes you're not, but the grief never goes away. I
think the same is true. Pieces of us, pieces of
our beliefs, have to die, and there is a grief.
Whether that belief was good or not, it's still a grief,
(32:14):
and so it'll come up, it'll come back, and you
have to continue to be gentle, just because there are
things that I know about myself and know are true
about myself in ways that I treat myself, and there
are patterns that I fall back into from time to time,
and I have to be gracious enough to know that
it's been thirty seven years, babe, Like, is that thing
(32:36):
you've had since you were in the playground, Like, it's
not just gonna go away, It's not just Healing doesn't
mean that it's gone, right, It means that that you're
able to I always say, healing means you're able to
respond instead of react. Right, react is always an attack
or like there's a there's a chaos to the reaction,
but you can actually the thing comes and it might
still trigger you, but there's an ability for you to vombit,
(32:59):
to be am like, to suthe it.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
To like, oh bomb like a lip bomb.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
To bomb it, to soothe it, to relax it, to
respond to it. But I think this idea that it
just like goes away is like it doesn't. It doesn't
just disappear.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
No, it never does, you know, because even right now
with me talking about like you know, I steal them
over here like a girl, do you really want to me?
And motherfucking sucking your dig like that? And I'm like, bro,
I do. But just somebody that I'm jumping off with,
not nobody that I'm taking serious. Yeah, because in the
back of your him, in the back of my mind.
I'm like, you suck everybody dig.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Like, where does that belief come from? Like, where does that?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Oh this is gonna this is gonna be bad. Uh
Oh I was raised by women.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Mm hmmm same.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You know, women think that any time a man is
with something that's male or or has any male type
of anything, he yes, he's on the bottom. There's never
a top.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yes, I I now that you say that. I'm thinking
about being a kid raised by by three very incredible
black women. But the conversation around gay men or men
or the d L the d like you know, in
the nineties, like that term started coming out and there
was just such vitriol around uh the the that community
(34:21):
and like, oh he sucks sick like that then he's
this and like there was there Yeah, yeah, there was
such a wow, fuck Maddie. Yep, that is where that
comes from.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
It's something that ooh fuck yeah, that's like that says.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The women saying, O girl, you see that again, his
butt plugged in.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
A talk, that's the church talk.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
In his booty.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
And it's just like there are men, there are tops,
and there are bottoms, and there are.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Verses, and there are people who are by and there
are people and also, by the way, there are people.
There are straight men who like shit in their butt
and there's a process up there. It feels good, but
there's a mean they don't have to be kay, they
just like like a little dial though, like there's also
the space to explore.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So, yeah, my like women women. I learned that from women.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
And then it's just like, just like if a woman
thought that me and my bodyguard was together, the first
thing they're gonna say, oh, you know, like that man
ain't even own that kind of shit. And so but
but I told him yesterday while we were on the
telephone talking because that's my good friend, I said, you
know what I'm gonna stop doing.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I was doing a lot of protecting you because people see.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
How close we are and how you know that you
love me and we love each other whatever, and people
see how close we are, and I'm always quick to
say no, no, no, no, no no, no, we're not together.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
He's straight.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I told him. I said, I'm just gonna tell him
that we're not together because me saying that you're straight
invalidates me as being a woman.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And I'm going to stop doing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That because in your mind, it's validating that you see
me as a man, because what's wrong with being with
me as a straight man.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
There's nothing wrong with being with me as a straight nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Isn't it interesting? Like how so much of our responses
or our reactions and and and those things that we do,
especially like as queer folks, as trans folks, like protecting
quote unquote protecting your straight friends when somebody thinks that
you're dating them, you're like, no, no, like I'm gay straight,
Like we do that to I don't know, keep them
(36:34):
from the blows of homophobia, but that it's also so
rooted in perception and that we have to consciously work
at not caring what other people think because our default
is to, well, I don't want them to think, where
it's like, well think what the fuck you think? Like
we're good, Like it's we're fine, so like y'all can
think what you want to think. But we always feel
(36:55):
like we have to say something and explain ourselves and
explain our especially square folks, having to explain our existence,
having to explain our relationships, having to just not validate ourselves,
but justify why we're here, right, justify why I'm in,
why I'm allowed to walk with this person. Why this
person is friends, I have to like justify it in
(37:17):
some way, and that is just.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And I told him this, and I told him, I said,
I don't want you to get upset with me, because
if you will, you might as well stop being around
me and stop being my friend now. But I'm never
again saying that we're not together because you're straight.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm never saying it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
And again, yeah, never, there's no reason for us. We're
just not together, right. Our sexual orientation does not like
it doesn't our gender like. It's like, it's just we're
not together.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And it's not because in the moment and the moment
that you say it, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
To feel some type of way. I'm going to check
you in it.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, yes, by the way, I think that it's so
loving of you to loving of yourself and to go
back to our trusting of men. It's really what's the
word I want to use, there's like a there's it's
brave and courageous and loving to give him an opportunity
to show up for you in that way. Do you
(38:12):
know what I'm saying. It's it's a chance, It's like
that is a deepening of the bond.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
That's probably the only man that I've opened up to
and like been close with. And I think it's because
there is no romantic ties or no sexual ties to it,
so there's like nothing there like that.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
It's gonna the sex feel lower.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, he's there because he works for me. He trying
to hurt me. He ain't trying to fuck me. He's
trying to fuck over me and fuck my friends.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I always try to encourage people to get.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
In sex work and get out because if you're truly
in sex work, you have you have to turn all
your feelings and emotions and you know, you have to
turn that off. You have to turn all of that
ship off.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
And then when you're out, like because I'm not in
it anymore, I'm just now coming back to getting.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
The feelings back.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Like it's kind of like when your foot goes to
sleep and you and or your lego sleeping, it's dead
tingling and when all the nerves are coming back. Sure,
that's where I'm at now, Like that's how And I
told my bodyguard that, like I said, that's why I'm
with you, Like my nerves are coming back, you know,
enough for me to even be your friend this close.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Right, I was numb.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I was numb to to like, I'm just really receiving people.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Saying I love you.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I'm like, why right, Because that's how it had to
be your operating system, because that's what people were doing
with you and to you, and and and so now
you're like, you're in a different you're in a different
season of your life, and so there are new things
to adjust. But doesn't mean the old operating system isn't
still active, isn't still in some ways running the ship? Yeah? Is.
(40:00):
I think the hardest part of growth is having to
even though whether the old operating system serves us or
not is kind of irrelevant. It's familiar and it's known,
and the idea of releasing it to step into the unknown,
especially if you're part of a community that is not
safe in general, I can imagine that that is a
big leap.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Huge And this is something that I have to deal
with every day, even like when I'm dealing with people,
like I'm dealing with just receiving emotions, like receiving love,
receiving like like I'm learning how to respond back to
that with feeling.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
But I think the beauty of it is that you're
aware of it. You understand that there is a shovel,
You understand that there is a hole that's being digged,
and I think you're doing I mean, it's like we
said earlier. It doesn't happen overnight. It might take the
next forty seven years, but you will feel that love
and receive that love. What do you desire like for
yourself and and for your romantic space? Like if I
could wave a magic wand like what what is your
(41:01):
desire for yourself and for your relationship? Like when you
think about, oh, I've dropped the shovel and I've moved forward,
Like what does that look like for you? Or what
do you hope?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It looks like a gentleman that doesn't have to lie
to kick it with me. It looks like me and
a person actually having a great romantic relationship, and not
just a great romantic relationship, but you know, also building
with each other. This is gonna sound fucked up, but
(41:37):
just like a traditional a traditional husband and wife, good
man relationship, like a good.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Man Hmm, it doesn't sound sucked up. It sounds like
you want safety.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
If a one could be waived, because right now I'm
in a space of I'll fuck around when I'm horny,
and you know we're friends. You know we're friends with
benefits here and there and go home because you that
lady problem.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
You're not mine, but you want that safety, You want
that tradition. You want that.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I would like that, but unfortunately that does not exist
for me.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Do you think it ever will?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
No?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Can I ask why? I'm not saying that you're right
or wrong, but can I ask why?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Well, I'm forty seven. It ain't happen. It's long and
this far, this doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
But what if you have like forty seven more years?
You don't think that there's.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Who we'd have to see it in forty seven years.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I love you, and I'm so grateful for this conversation
and for the way that you always use your experiences
and your heart to not only entertain and educate, but
to make people feel seen and less alone on their journey.
Your willingness to give the honest, raw, vulnerable truth. I
(43:01):
think it's healing, but you I want. I want that
dream for you, and I see it for you, and
so I'm gonna hold it, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I'm gonna hold it for me.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
For you, and I'm gonna keep telling you I love you.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I love you too, because I know you do. I
believe it, we feel it like when we you know
we I know it. I receive it.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
It's because I'm open to receiving it now in a
real space like I wasn't open before the receiving it
because it's just like, you know, even when I hugged,
when I've hugged people back then.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
It was really a hug and it was just like
it was an emotionless hug.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
You know what I'm saying, Yes, yeah, just like dry
you know, it's like that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Now I can do a hug. I can embrace in
that hug, I can.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Hold it, fall into the hug.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Receive it, like receive it.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Because you deserve that. And that's that thing we're talking
about at the very beginning, about what do you believe
about your body? What do you believe about yourself? And
I feel like that's the work. That's why I'm so
grateful for this conversation because I know a lot of
people listening are in that work of interrogating how they
see themselves so if they can receive that love, because
that receiving of love is also a reflection of how
(44:17):
we love ourselves too, like to what to what extent
are we able to love ourselves? Because if I know,
I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, push back
on me. But I think that, like, if I know
to my core that I love all of it, then
I'm not surprised that you love it too. Is that correct?
I don't know if that's right. That's correct? Right? If
I love all of this, then I'm not surprised by
(44:40):
you saying you love me, because it's like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
And I love me a lot because oh you do.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
WHI yes, listen, big fast sexy, motherfucking big fast sex.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I get that all day.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I am so grateful to you and that I love
you and that I see, I see that traditional future.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
Come on, my god, my god.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I see love for you. I see that made that
good man, that you trust, that you feel safe with,
that you can breathe with, because you are worthy of it,
you deserve it, and you are the the the ways
in which you give, the experiences that you've had, and
your ability to still show up as generous and as
loving and it's kind. I mean, for from the first
(46:01):
time we connected, you were just big love for me.
It was it was it was like immediately immediately, and
that has always been your energy.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
And so because I thought you were so handsome.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Like you were being here. You know that we are
hose here, but we are hoes with heart. So let
me speak to yours. I'm so grateful for Maddie because
she's on her journey, and to share one's journey when
they're in the middle of a healing process or at
the beginning or the end or whatever it is, is
(46:39):
terrifying and scary. Uh, and it's vulnerable, but it's it's
so important for us to talk about these things, to
talk about what we're going through, obviously in safe spaces,
but to lean on our community to have the difficult
conversation so that we know that we're not alone. I'm
so moved by not just the honesty, but just like
(47:02):
the wisdom of we are all digging and we are
I mean, I know you feel that, I feel it
always always just like digging these holes. But with these
shovels that do not belong to us, how do we
drop the shovel We talked a bit about that. I
don't think there's a clear path. I think everyone's going
to have to figure out how they drop their own shovel.
(47:24):
But I think you have to know that you're probably
going to pick it back up. If I can leave
you with something, it's that you're probably going to pick
it back up, and that's okay. You'll drop it again,
and you'll be aware of when you pick it up sooner,
and that is growth, right. It's the goal is not perfection.
The goal is not to be perfectly healed. I remember
(47:44):
I had a friend when I first moved to La
and I was talking about all my big dreams, and
then she said, the journey is the goal that the
testimony is in going through the trials and tribulations. It's
not necessarily at the completion of it. So be gentle
with yourself as you navigate the shovels. Kalno, some of
(48:04):
us are digging several holes at once. As you navigate
the shovels, as you navigate how you put them down,
as you pick them back up. Be gentle with yourself
and whoever you are, wherever you are, you deserve love.
You deserve the love you want, and you see for yourself.
It may not happen right now, it may happen in
(48:25):
a year ten years twenty. Whenever it happens, it happens.
But just know that no matter what you deserve it,
you're worthy of it, and I'm rooting for you to
get it. I love you. You can find Maddie on
Instagram at ts Madison. Find me on Instagram at Brandon
called Goodman. Find this podcast and tell me something messy. Also,
(48:46):
please join our commy unity on the Messy Mondays sub stack.
When you subscribe, you will get weekly posts on sex,
self and recommendations, playlists, additional podcast content and more. And
also we're just like trying to build out how we
as a pot podcast community can talk and communicate with
each other and continue these conversations that we have here. Also,
(49:06):
you know I want to hear from you, so send
your topic ideas or submissions or if you had a
foosball moment, I want to hear about that, So you
can email that to tell me something Messy at gmail
dot com or you can call us at six six
nine sixty nine messy. That is six six nine six
nine six three seven seven nine. For you hoes who
can't spell, rate and review and share this podcast with
(49:29):
all your hoe or aspiring ho friends. It really helps
the show, and we're having so much fun here, so
I really hope that you're enjoying it and give it
five stars. Don't play me. I will find you baby. Okay, okay,
Well that is the show until we meet again. Ask
about the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Make sure they eat the kitty, before they beat the kitty,
before fucation or suckcation. There should be communication and the
(49:53):
Just in case you haven't heard it yet, today you
are so deeply loved. I love you. Thank you so
much for listening to tell Me Something Messy. If you
all enjoyed the show, send me episode to someone else
who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive
produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins and Yours Truly. Our
(50:15):
producer and editor is Vince de Johnny. Tell Me Something
Messy is proud to be a part of the Outspoken
Network from iHeart Podcasts, available on the iHeartRadio app or
wherever you get your podcasts.
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