Brent Smith

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob left Set's podcast. My
guest today is Brent Smith, frontmans to the band Shinedown. Brent,
good to have you on podcasts. So I've got to ask,
Shinetown has nineteen number one rock tracks. Why are more

(00:29):
Americans not familiar with the music of Shinedown. Well, it's
interesting because I think it's changing. I think more Americans, actually,
I think the entire world is getting more and more
familiar with us. But I mean, we've been a band
for two decades now and we've gone through We're always
going down these very unique roads with our career. We've

(00:51):
always built the band around the audience and growing the audience.
But if I'm being totally honest with you, the touring
last year was some of the biggest that we've done
in the last two decades. The band is consistently growing
every year, and the band is consistently going to more
countries every year. It is expanding, it is getting bigger.

(01:12):
But that's all credit to the fan base. Okay, So
who is a Shinedown fan? Anyone from anywhere, at any
time can be a Shinedown fan. But I'm asking different.
You know, you're in touch, you know, with your audience.
What do you think they're Who are they, what are
they like, what's their personality, what are their desires, etc.

(01:35):
I think that they I mean, listen, as the main
lyricist in the band of two decades, I've been talking
about mental health for the better part of twenty years,
even before it was in headlines and people were talking
about it in media. You know, politicians were bringing it up,
so on and so forth. You know, it's two thousand

(01:56):
and twenty three and mental health is a made your
topic now, but it's been a major topic my entire life.
So I think to answer your question, you know, a
Shine Down fan is somebody that, more than anything, I
think they're tenacious. I think that they're humble. I think

(02:17):
that they at certain points in times in their life,
they have to understand that it may take a minute
to figure out who they are, and that's completely okay.
We're all a work in progress, and I think growth
is a big part of what we do as a
band and our connection with our audience, whether they've been
there from the very very beginning or they're just finding

(02:39):
out who we are. There's such an intensity between the
relationship of the band and the audience because they know
what we're trying to do, especially in the music on record,
but also the live performances are an experience. One of
the main things I do a shine Down show is

(03:02):
we intro first two songs. After that, I asked the audience,
if this is your first time seeing shine Down, raise
your hand, don't be shy, and continuously eighty percent of
the audience, no matter where we are, continues to raise
their hand, which shows us that it's growing. But then
I tell everybody to look to the left and look
to the right and know that the person next to them.

(03:22):
You may have not met each other until tonight's show,
but that's all gonna change now. So everybody turned to
your neighbor. I want to see you high five in
each other, shaking hands, tell everybody it's awesome to see
him at the show, and that kind of breaks the
ice with everyone and it just becomes this experience. Okay,
let's you know, there's a lot of stuff there. Let's

(03:43):
start with the mental health component. So how did you
get motivated to address that? I think I got it
motivated to address it because growing up I was a
bit I don't want to say necessarily that I was ostracized,
but I was not the cool kid. I was also
the weird kid. You know. I grew up in a

(04:06):
very sports driven family, and I was always artsy. I
was always I mean, I started writing songs when I
was ten years old, and you know, for for me,
I think that what I had to understand about, you know,
who I was is I had to be honest that

(04:29):
I loved music. That um, it was a part of
who I am. I remember, like my mom and my dad,
as I got older, you know, I started to try
to tell them what I wanted to do and what
I wanted to be. And when you have this dream

(04:50):
or this desire to be something that maybe they've never
seen before, or maybe it doesn't run in the family
or what have you. It was just important to me
anyway to be able to express who I was and
the vision that I had. You know, when you're fifteen

(05:11):
years old and you start writing songs, and these songs
are the lyrics, and these songs are extremely deep, and
it takes a lot to kind of go there. And
my parents would like grab these journals and look at
it and stuff like that, and they would just be like,
what is going on, like where's all this coming from?

(05:31):
And it was just a part of who I am.
If I answered that question and write I think I
got no. No, Okay, that's all. That's all very interesting
and we'll get back to some of the what you're
seeing there. But you say in your lyrics and the
image of the band, you're very focused on mental health.
Is that based on personal experiences, have you contemplated suicide,

(05:52):
attempted suicide? What's going on there? So the mental health
of everything in the band and why it's important to
us is that we've lived through it on a daily basis.
I have a substance abuse addiction that a lot of
people know about, and you know, it's kind of out there.

(06:13):
And I appreciate this this interview right now because you're
going you're going at me with some pretty heavy material.
It's making me really kind of center myself here and
think about this. I want to do everything in my
power to the best of my ability and the band

(06:38):
the best of our ability, to bring the suicide rate
in America and the rest of the world down because
we've lost so many family members, we've lost so many friends.
And I'm talking about even when I was a teenager.
There's a lot of kids. And even when I got
older and left home and went out to pursue what

(07:01):
I do now, you would get the phone call that
this person passed away, my friend from here passed away.
How do they die? They killed themselves, And it just
seemed like it was it would pile on and it
would get worse and worse and worse. And so the
music that we talk about, it's one of the reasons
why I name the band shine Down. I name the

(07:22):
band shined Down because it's the yin and the yang.
Everything that's good has a little bit of bad, and
everything that's bad has a little bit of good. There's
a balance inside of it all, and sometimes you have
to fall into a hole to figure out how to
get out of it. So there is always there's this
empathy in our music about triumph, about triumph and about

(07:42):
overcoming and about being strong and going after that. But
there's also those moments in the song where it just
feels like sometimes like you don't understand why certain things
are happening to you. And you know, growing up, I
know that kids today and adults today, everything that social
media brings to you, everything that's put on a platform.

(08:03):
Everything that's exposed. Everyone has an opinion, you know. That's
constantly motivating everyone. And my son just turned fifteen years
old and I always tell him, I say to him, remember,
when it comes to the phone, when it comes to
the Internet, you're in control of the device. The device
does not need to be in control of you. And

(08:26):
you know, listen, It's just something I think that I was.
I was born with this part of me that, however
I was feeling, I have to write it down. Whatever
I experienced growing up, the scenarios, the situations that I've
been in, all of those things that are very very
hardcore factors for me. I put them in these songs.

(08:48):
And the mental health aspect of it is goes back
to what I said earlier, which was we're all a
work in progress. It's the reality. I don't want people
to think just because in a rut or just because
one moment in their life they're having a hard time,
that it's going to be like that forever. I also
don't want them to think that they can just slide by.

(09:10):
You've got to figure out a way to overcome. You
have to build adversity into your core, into your being.
Into your soul and that takes time. And I just
don't want people to give up on themselves more than anything.
And I don't want people to give up on this planet,
in this world, because it's an amazing place, but it

(09:31):
can also be very devastating. Like this is not an easy,
this life that we all lead. It's not necessarily always
easy to navigate. So I try to create this soundtrack
for people that keeps them on their road. And if
they want to change directions on their road, that's totally fine,
but just don't give up going down those roads. Okay,

(09:54):
let's go back to the beginning. You're from Lochsville, Tennessee
or that area, totally what the environment was for you
growing up? So the environment was very country, even though
the University of Tennessee is there. It was very kind

(10:16):
of backwoods, very good old boy, good old girl type
of you know upbringing. You know, we all had four
seasons that was nice, you know, lakes and mountains. It
was a beautiful place to grow up and live. But again,
I'll be honest, being the weird kid didn't bode for me.

(10:40):
All always so good, you know, I was in sports.
My dad was a part of the school system, and
my mom worked for the banking system and probably the
one person in my life that gave me my work ethic.
My drive comes from my mother's mother, which is my
grand an who I talk about all the time. So um,

(11:02):
you know, I was pretty much raised by the three
of them and my other grandmother who passed away before
the first record from Shinedown was able to be released.
But it was a good upbringing. I mean, it was
a cool town for what it was. You know. I
went through high school, never went to college or anything
like that. I was out of the house at eighteen
years old. But I had a pretty pretty normal upbringing,

(11:27):
nothing through out of the ordinary. Oh okay, how well
did you do in school? And did you have friends?
I was terrible in school at the stuff I didn't
care about. If I cared about it, I was really
really good at it, so music and art. I did
great at math and arithmetic, and you know, English and

(11:47):
some of the other things I didn't do as well.
I did pretty good when I was in high school.
I did good in sociology though in psychology I was
good in that, And yeah, I had friends. But I'll
tell you an interesting thing from elementary school to middle school,
all the same kids. We all like I went to

(12:10):
school with all the kids in elementary school, that I
went to school with all the kids in middle school,
and then we all went on to high school together.
And everybody was cool with each other in elementary school,
and then everybody got kind of mean in middle school.
It's always middle school, like that's when everybody's like everything's changing,
your body's changing. It's always a wild, kind of weird

(12:30):
time for any kid. And then the interesting thing was
for me, I went to a different school that I
was zoned to my ninth grade year, so I actually
didn't go to the school I was supposed to go to,
and I got kicked out of the school that I
did go to, so I had to go back my
sophomore year to the school that I was zoned to

(12:52):
go to. Why'd you get kicked out? I just I'm
gonna say something, and some people are gonna be like, really,
but this is the only way I know how to
say it. I found myself. I got kicked out because
I found myself, Okay, a little and what I'm a
little deeper. Yeah, well, I guess the way I was
doing everything that I could to be the good kid

(13:14):
from my parents and my mother and my dad, and
because they were just wonderful, great people, and you know,
they got this kid that they don't necessarily know what
they I was not easy to raise, let's just put
it that way, and so my parents wanted me to
have and I got bullied a lot and got beat
up a lot, and I had to kind of Middle
school was tough for me. I was one of those

(13:38):
very awkward moments in life where my body was changing,
and it just was one of those things where every
day I go to my I remember my eighth grade year,
every day was you know, I had to kind of
fend for myself. It wasn't pretty. So you asked me
about did I have friends. I had friends in elementary school,
and then I had friends in sixth grade. But by

(13:58):
the time I got to seventh and eighth grade, I
just became like a punching bag. And so my mom
was like, I'm gonna take you to a different school,
like let's let's let's start over, let's try something else.
So we go to to this other school and I
had a huge gross spurt over the summer of my

(14:18):
eighth grade year, so I got really tall, and I
had a terrible acne when I was in eighth grade,
and so I actually was one of the first two
hundred people in North America to take a drug called acutane,
and I was one of the youngest to take it.
But it worked because I had a severe acne and

(14:40):
it worked and it cleared my cleared my skin up.
And so mind you, I grew, I got a little
bit better looking. I was on the football team and
the wrestling team. But I just remember one day just
thinking to myself, and this was in the middle of
the school year. I was like, this isn't who I
I am. Like this this is just not who I am.

(15:03):
And like I was into punk rock. I was having
to kind of um hide what I was listening to.
I couldn't really bring it into the house. You know,
nothing against my parents, they just didn't understand, you know,
like what was going on with their kid. You know,
there was somebody in our in our family that had
a music background. So I kind of like came out
of the blue. And so I changed and I got

(15:27):
defiant and I got hard to deal with, and I
stopped caring about like what people thought, Like I just
wanted to be me. It didn't mean I was like
a punk kid and I was mean or I was
violent or aggressive or anything like that. It just I
wanted to come out of my shell, you know. And
I didn't want to wear khaki pants, and I didn't
want to wear like a button down shirts and stuff

(15:50):
like that. I wanted to wear white T shirts. I
had a chain wallet, you know. I wanted to wear
you know, baggy jeans. You know. I wore air walks
instead of like nikes, just things like that. And I did, however,
rubbed the principle the wrong way too many times and
I got kicked out. And then that made it to

(16:11):
where I had to go to the school I was
already zoned for. But when I went to my sophomore year,
what was kind of interesting about that was I had
been gone for a year, so like they remembered this
kid that was kind of chubby and short and had
really really bad acne. All of a sudden, I came
back to this school and I had grown two and
a half feet, and you know, I looked completely different,

(16:34):
Like people didn't know it was me when I went
back to school. So it kind of was like I
was able to have a bit of a do over.
I guess you would say, but all those people that
I went to school with, now I'm back into school
with them, I didn't necessarily care to like reach out

(16:54):
and befriend them or what have you. I was much
more of a loner and I was much more to myself.
But I will tell you this, the cool thing was
by the time we got to our senior year, all
of the people that I went to elementary school with
in middle school and all that, everybody just kind of
let their guard down. I remember this very vividly my
senior year, and everybody was cool with each other. Like

(17:16):
when we graduated, like we just kind of forgot about
all of that stuff and we just everybody. We were
all friends. It didn't matter if you were a jock
or if you were you know, if you were into sports,
or you were an academic, or you were popular or
you weren't popular, or you know, if you were the
weird kid or whatever. Everybody was just cool with each other.
So I do remember that being a nice way to

(17:37):
kind of finish out that part of my high school years. Okay,
so what was your exposure to music and what drove
you to write lyrics. It's pretty instantaneous from the from
the moment I was born. As soon as I could read,
words affected me in a very very powerful way. And

(18:01):
then as soon as I heard music and I could
understand melody that a good friend of mine once told me,
he said, you don't pick the music, The music will
pick you. It's what you do with it after that,
And so language was a big deal for me, and
poetry was a big deal to me. I started writing

(18:23):
poetry when I was ten years old. Writing lyrics came
a little bit later. But the music aspects of things,
it kind of started with like the Beach Boys I remember,
and Whalen Jennings and Willie Nelson. That was kind of
the early stuff. And these were like songs that had
melody to them, but they also like very clever lyrics,

(18:46):
especially the Whalen Jennings stuff and the Willie Nelson stuff
like that was really deep, like the things that they
were talking about in those songs. And Johnny Cash. I
remember I found I found Johnny Cash when I was fourteen.
It really kind of changed my life. And I didn't
listen to the Beatles until I was twenty four years old.
I remember the very first time I heard the White Album.
I was in my mid twenties so, but very early on,

(19:10):
just language A was a big deal for me. It's
at this point in time, are you a reader? Yeah,
I mean not reading like necessarily novels or books of
that nature. But what I was reading was a lot
of I was reading a lot of music magazines. I

(19:31):
was also reading a lot of it. You gotta understand
something too, Like it was hard for me to go
into a store, you know, even before I was a
teenager and get kind of the books that I wanted
to read, and if you were at a library, you
could only get so like my mom would only allow
me to get so many things. And then by the
time I got to middle school, there were certain things

(19:52):
that we had to read. When I got to high school,
that's when I read some of the classics, Like I
remember remember reading Moby Dick. When I got to to
high school. I remember all the Canterbury Tales that you
had to read, which is like some really really heavy stuff.
But Shakespeare was a big deal. I read a lot

(20:16):
of Shakespeare. I can't remember a lot of it to
this day, but I just I remembered I was. It
was a lot of Shakespeare at that time, and I
read a lot of Nietzsche because Nietzche is a huge
part of my life too, just from a and why
I say that is he had a tormented life. I'm
not saying that my life is tormented. But when I

(20:38):
read the quote that he penned, which says, without music,
life would be a mistake, I was like, there's my guy.
That's that's my guy. And I just kind of went
down a rabbit hole all of his work to just
kind of see what was going on in his mind.
Him and Edgar Allan Poe. You know, I loved the

(20:58):
you know, if you stare into the this long enough,
the abyss will stare back. It was always those types
of individuals. What turned John to punk rock? And when
did you form bands? Punk rock? Was? When did I?

(21:20):
I'm trying to remember the exact time that had happened.
I went backwards a little bit. The album that got
me into punk rock was Appetite for Destruction. And I
have to set the scene a little bit because I
was in fifth grade and there was music class and
on Fridays, the teacher was very kind of open and

(21:41):
very free and what have you. She was rad I
can't remember her name, but I just remember like she
wasn't a normal music teacher for a bunch of fifth graders,
so she would let students bring in tapes and what
have you, and you could on Fridays, everybody would to
listen to different music. So there was like rock and roll,
there was pop music, there was hip hop. It was
all kinds of stuff. And I remember this kid brought

(22:03):
an appetite for destruction. This was like nineteen eighty nine,
and she was just kind of doing her own thing.
I'll never forget it. She was just doing her own thing. Meanwhile,
like It's so Easy came on and it was just
like all the other kids weren't even really paying attention,
but I was like, what did you just say? And

(22:24):
then like welcome to the Jungle, and then like mister Brownstone,
I'm gonna listen to the whole record. I just remember
all the kids were all running around doing other stuff,
and I was just sitting in front of this stereo
in this classroom listening to what was coming out of
these speakers. Because I had never heard anything like it
in all my life, and a lot of it had
to do with the language and then so that kind
of got me into I wanted to know more about that,

(22:47):
and you know Operation IVY. I remember finding out about them,
and then Fugazi was next, and then Minor Threat, and
then the Dwarves were after that, and I'm trying to
remember Lloyd was in there. But when I found uh,
when I found bad Religion, like that changed everything too

(23:07):
once again, very lyrical, like really intense, really thought out,
really uh like spell like spell bounding. Um, as far
as you know punk rock is concerned, I think that
you know Bad Religion, as far as the lyrics are concerned,
that's the most profound punk rock band on the planet

(23:30):
in my mind. Okay, so you get turned onto all
this music? When do you become a performer? Fourteen thirteen
fourteen um I h. I started playing in a group
of guys. I remember my very first performance in front

(23:53):
of an audience was a talent show. Um. I think
it was sophomore year when I went back to the school.
I was zoned for me and like three other kids
got together. I remember the drummer though, was like five
years older than everybody else and he had a drum

(24:14):
kid and he had like a garage and he had
an extra bass and a bass amp, and he had
like this really old crate amp and a guitar, and
there were two other kids from school. We didn't really
know each other that well. I can't remember how we
actually got hooked up, but I remember we just I
remember being in that garage at that house, and they're
like they didn't know how to play anybody's music, Like

(24:36):
we didn't know how to play any any songs or
anything like that. So we made up our stuff, and
I mean it was awful. It was terrible, and we
were just like banging on this stuff and it was
very very you talk about punk rock, it was worse
than punk rock. I think that Henry Rollins would have
probably punched us all in the anyway, but or he

(24:57):
might have dug it, who knows, but it was very
like it didn't matter. It was probably a good thing
that we weren't trying to play other people's music. We
were trying to kind of go off of each other
and see if we could create something together. And I
remember we wrote this song that was decent enough to
like hold a melody, and I just remember going on
stage and having absolutely no fear at all at this

(25:20):
talent show at our school with these other guys, and
the other guys were like really nervous, which makes it
really funny now in my career because I'm terrified every
night before I go on stage twenty years doing this
and before the curtain drops, I'm terrified. But I remember
that specific moment in time, I had no fear whatsoever.

(25:42):
It's like I wanted it more than anything in the
world because it was a packed house auditorium. There was
like three hundred kids in there, and I just went
for it. And I just remember kind of everybody being
a little dumbfounded, didn't really know what they were watching.
They saw this kid walking around school and stuff like that,
and then all of a sudden, I just opened my
mouth and you know, it probably wasn't great, but it

(26:02):
was me and it was five. Remember it was primal,
and I remember it was real. And then after that,
I towards the back half of like, um my, my
junior and senior year, I got in a band called
Blind Thought in Knoxville, Tennessee. Um we did some local
stuff around the area. The band was kind of based

(26:24):
out of Farragut, Tennessee, and uh, it did that, and
then I got into this other band called Dreeve, which
was actually the first band signed to Atlantic Records. That
was signed for ten months and then it was dropped
or we were dropped. And then about two months later
I was signed to a development deal with Atlantic Records.
And then that okay, okay, a little a little bit slower,

(26:45):
my bad. What do your parents say when you don't
go to college since your father was in the school system. Um,
I think they knew it wasn't gonna happen. Like I
think they knew, I don't. Here was the thing about me.
I was not afraid of hard work. So at fourteen,

(27:06):
I remember my parents Back in the day in Tennessee,
you had to sign there had to be an order
for the state. But I'm trying to remember what the
year would be, it doesn't matter. Fourteen years old, I
go to my mom and my dad and I'm like,
I want to I want to work. I want a
job like on the weekends, like during the school during

(27:27):
the school year and in the summer. I want to
be able to work at least forty hours. You know.
I said this at fourteen years old, and they were like,
do you think you can get a job. And I
was like, well, I can get a job if you
signed this paper. You know, I'd gone to the library
found out about this paper that you could get from
the state if your parents signed it, it it would allow
you to work and this and that and the other.

(27:47):
You can only do like ten hours a week during
the school year or something like that, but you could
still go. I wanted to make my own money, and
they they did it. And so, you know, so for me,
the whole thing about college and the whole thing about school.
You know, the one thing my parents would say about
me is, you know, as soon as I could get
a job, I had a job. And then when I

(28:08):
was when I was sixteen, you know, I just I
worked as much as I possibly could. And then you know,
by the time I was eighteen, I was working, you know,
sixty hours a week, two different jobs. So my work
ethic was always there. I just didn't want to go
to school anymore. So I don't think they really I
was always I always at a job. Okay, so when

(28:29):
was the dream to become a rock star kindled? And
did you graduate from my school? So yeah, this is
my future? Yeah, I mean, but here's the thing. About me.
The rock star thing has never been me. If I'm
a rock star or I'm a performer, I'd rather be

(28:52):
considered that in a lot of ways. Whatever my set
time is, that's when that switch goes off. But the
other twenty hours out of the day, twenty two hours
out of the day, I'm very, very high profocused. I'm
very you know, centered in, and I'm able to juggle

(29:13):
a lot of different things. But the I guess you
would say the performer aspect of me, the quote unquote
showmanship side of me, is only turned on when it
needs to be turned on. Okay, so you're in this band.
How does the band get a deal with Atlantic Records? Well, um,

(29:38):
talking about Shakespeare, it's kind of Shakespearean in a way.
So we were we were based out of Knoxville, Tennessee,
and at that time we were we were playing all
over like we were actually playing regionally, so we weren't
just playing in Knoxville. We were going out of state

(30:00):
by you know, anywhere between two hundred fifty three hundred miles.
You know, we'd go out and play anywhere that we could.
It was it covers or originals or both. It's all original,
No covers, nothing. It was all original and we had
and we did. We had two records come out, both
were on cassette and both were on compact disc. And

(30:26):
the drummer befriended a young lady. And the best way
I can tell everybody this because it's such a unique
story and I'm kind of in the birthplace of all
of this right now, the studio that I'm in at
the moment in Orlando, Florida, because I'm actually in J R.

(30:47):
R Studios in Orlando. And so basically, the drummer started
hanging out with this young lady, and this young lady
had a boyfriend and he was in a band signed
to Atlantic, and the young lady and I were friends

(31:08):
as well. And I'm getting to it. Everybody's like, Okay,
where is it going. But this young lady would turn
out to be the mother of my fifteen year old son,
And so the reality is that we were playing all
over Knoxville, and my son's mother, Ashley, she was engaged

(31:31):
to a drummer from another band on Atlantic Records, and
so our drummer in the band that I was in, dreaw,
he gave her our CD and so the A and
R of that band, she gave this disc to him,
and basically this is what happened, and who that was

(31:56):
was a guy named Steve Robertson, who was the A
and R of Shin Down and has been the A
and R for Shine Doown for the last two decades.
We've also been on Atlantic Records for the last two decades,
which in this day and age as an anomaly, also
been with the same manager, Bill mcgafey for the last
twenty one years. So very family oriented group. And so

(32:17):
Stevo gets the CD from this young lady who is
the girlfriend of the drummer of a band that he
signed and he's working with on Atlantic, doesn't really listen
to the CD, throws it. This is back in the
day when like A and R guys would have one
hundred CDs a day sent to them, because it was

(32:39):
like twenty years ago. And so one day he's kind
of going through old stuff, what have you, trying to
clean everything out this other He comes across the CD
that he had kind of thrown off to the side
or what have you. He puts it in and he
goes to like the third song on the record, and
I let out this huge note in this song, and

(33:03):
so he contacts her says, who is this? Who are
these guys? Where are they from? He then Steve flies
to Knoxville, we set up a show. He brings Michael Binhorn,
who if people don't know who Michael Bienhorn is. He

(33:26):
produced Celebrity Skin for Whole, he did What Hits by
the Red Out Chili Peppers, he did super Unknown by
Sound Garden. I can stop there anyway. So he brings
Michael Biinhorn to Knoxville and we have a showcase. Then
we go out with him that night, and then basically
we end up getting a record contract, essentially a demo deal.

(33:49):
And then the demo deal was there for about ten months,
and we were rehearsing and rehearsing and rehearsing, and eventually,
after around ten months, the band was dropped. And then
about two months went by and then I got a
phone call from Stevo and Steve says, I want to

(34:11):
sign you again, and I'm like, he just dropped me,
and he goes, why, I know, I want to sign
you to a development deal, which I didn't know what
that meant. And so it was really kind of created
by Ahmed Urnigan who was the founder of Atlantic Records,
God Rest his soul, and who was an amazing influence

(34:33):
on my life on so many levels. So the deal
was six months essentially Stevo had with me for us
to start producing and sending the record label actual songs,

(34:53):
like songs that were starting to show actual growth, like
actually that there could be something there, because he essentially
told me, he said, I know that you're in a band,
and I understand that brotherhood, and I understand what you're
trying to do and what have you. But you have
to understand my side of this. I think you're a performer,
and I think you're a songwriter. I think you're with

(35:13):
the wrong people. I need to put you in front
of the right people to see if my hunch about
what I think you are and who I think you
are is real. Because I never wanted to be a
solo artist. I always wanted to create a band. And
I signed that deal with him, and then three years later,
Shine Down released its debut album Okay when the original

(35:36):
band got dropped, did you think your future was over? No?
I had none of that. The thing was what was
interesting was this Steve did do something very unique right
before the band got dropped. He sent me. Granted, I'd
never been on a plane before, so he goes. He
I remember, he called me, he goes, have you ever
been on a plane. I'm like no. He's like, well,

(35:56):
I'm gonna send you to Los Angeles because I want
you to work with two songwriter And I was like
what and uh. So that the very first time I
got on a plane. I went out all the way
from Tennessee to Los Angeles and I worked with John
Shanks and I worked with Tommy Simms, two wonderful, wonderful songwriters.
And what I was able to do was, you know,

(36:17):
work with these guys, and we wrote. Me and Tommy
Simms wrote three songs together. Me and John wrote two together.
The unique thing about being with John Shanks was the
fact that Vinnie Caliuto was a friend of his. We
were in Henton Studios, and those first demo, those two
demos of those songs have Vinny Caaliudo playing drums on him,
which is crazy, um but uh. And then he sent

(36:40):
me to Nashville. I went, I came back to Tennessee
with those songs. Steve had him. Then he sent me
to work with Desmond Child and I wrote a song
with him and uh, and then you know, I get
back and that's when the band gets dropped, which was
very you know, it was interesting. I knew what, you know,

(37:02):
you could figure out what was happening as I'm saying it.
But he needed to see if there was something there
if he put me with some other people, because it
wasn't like those guys wrote these songs like. It was
very much like when I got into the room with
these guys, these were songwriters, but it was like they
looked at me and they said what do you got?
And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like,
what do you got? What are you working on? You know,

(37:23):
sing me something? So I would just sing off the
cuff and I would just write like on the spot,
and we were just you know, writing a song and
you're just doing it. It was just evolving, and I
hadn't had that with the band. The band it was like,
you know, you get in a room, it's just bang
bang bang bang. There's no time to like work out
melody and work out lyrics. It was all on. Everybody

(37:45):
had kind of like a thing. You just had to
whatever was presented to you. That's just what you had
to work with, and so it was just a different experience.
So no, I wasn't bummed out when when I got dropped,
you know, we I was a little it was peculiar
in a way. It was kind of like, wow, I'm
surprised it lasted that long. I was, you know. And

(38:08):
but then he called and he was just like, I
want to resign you. And then he was like, this
is what I want to do, Okay, so walk us
through that. And now he ended up in Florida. Well,
a lot of that was when I say that it

(38:30):
was trains, planes and automobiles with Steve robertson, it was
exactly that. I don't know if I was John Candy
or he was, or who was Steve Martin, But anyway,
what I mean by that to everybody is we went
on the road together. Any songwriter he could put me
in front of he did. He literally for the first

(38:55):
year from the development deal. I think me and him
were on the road together probably two hundred and eighty
days out of that first year, and we stayed in
the same hotel rooms together. We rode the same buses together,
took the Thame flights, a lot of rental cars, a
lot of miles on the highway, and he would put
me in front of anyone that would take a session

(39:17):
with me, and he worked me. I'd never stopped And
that lasted ultimately for about two years. And ultimately what
got me to Florida was Steve because Steve was based
here in Orlando. He was working obviously with Atlantic Records,
but they were allowing him to be based in Orlando

(39:38):
so that he could go out in the field and
scout music and he could go where he needed to go.
They didn't feel that it was necessary for him to
be in New York and so that led us to
Tony Battaglia. And so when I met Tony Battaglia, who
was a huge part of the first two albums and
he's a part of the and he's a part of

(40:00):
number three two, Tony had called me. It was written
by myself and Tony on Sound of Madness album. But
Tony was probably the first songwriter that he saw something
in me, and he really took me under his wing.
And so for the better part of I guess it

(40:24):
was about a year into that signing and then I
met Tony and then the next year was a lot
of just working diligently with Tony, and then Stevo would
get a line on, Hey, this guy is working with
this guy. This dude's a bass player, this guy knows

(40:46):
another guitar player, but this dude's a really, really great drummer,
or this band. It was interesting how it was all
put together, and it was very organic, and it was
very much the universe is real. But when I said that,
Steve was literally doing the definition of what an A
and R is supposed to do. He was really doing

(41:08):
artist development. He was networking at all hours of the day.
He never took any time off, like he was always
trying to find certain people. So it was like there
were all these different auditions all the time. So that
led me to meeting which would essentially be Brad Stewart.
And Brad Stewart came in when I started to work

(41:30):
with him on songs and what have you. And he
had a drummer friend and we were working with him
for a while, And he had a guitar player friend
and we were working with that for a while. So
what happened was that led me to Jacksonville, Florida. I
was working in Orlando with Tony and then I went
up to Jacksonville and then made in the Shade Studios,
which is no longer there, which is owned by Melody,
was owned by Judy van Zante Ronnie van Zant from

(41:53):
Leonard Skinner, that's his widow, and in Jacksonville. So we
were getting studio time there. And so what was happening
was we were going into the studio and there was
this really really tall, black haired, you know, really lanky dude,
kind of intimidating looking, but really but but cool, cool looking,

(42:17):
you know what I mean, but very like interesting guy.
And that was Jason Todd, and he was listening to
all this stuff that was going on with you know,
me and Brad and these other players and what have you.
And essentially there was a guy, a studio engineer named Pete,
and Jason knew Pete because Pete was working at the

(42:39):
studio and he was doing our demos and stuff that
we were working on. And Jason went to him one
day after he had heard me singing and things of
that nature, and he said, I don't care what you
gotta do, you gotta get me an audition with that
with that guy. And so he did, and then me
and him started working with each other. And then that

(43:01):
became me and Brad and Jason going down to floor,
going down to Orlando, working with Tony like non stop.
And then we started putting all these songs together and
developing all these songs and writing all these songs. And
you know, Rick Botto came into the fold, and then
Bob Marlette came into the fold. But I should say
the most interesting thing of it all was it was

(43:22):
the three of us at this point in time. But
I it was like, and it's like this for every band.
I feel, what is the hardest member of a band
when you're when you're creating a band, what's the hardest
position to figure out? I know everybody says a singer.
It's not a singer, it's a drummer. The drummer is
the hardest thing to find. And so we auditioned seven drummers,

(43:51):
and I'll never forget there was a young name, young
young man named Matt Brown. He's known very well and
like the Florida circuit, phenomenal drummer, incredible drummer. And he
came in and he had gotten some of the demos

(44:11):
and stuff like that, and to work out this and
that and the other and so he comes into Maid
in the Shade with us and what have you, and
he had some of the material and so he starts
to play. Granted, the other drummers that we had been
working with at the time and trying to see if
it was going to work this and that they were okay,
but like Matt came in and just like it was

(44:34):
just a different animal. And so we actually were going
to offer the gig to Matt. We were all excited.
We thought he was gonna be you know, stoked and
everything else. And I remember we met him at a
barbecue joint called Sticky Fingers and we're like, we want

(44:54):
to give you the gig and he was like, yeah,
I don't want it. And we were like, okay, you
tell us, why do we do something wrong? Did we
say something? He goes, absolutely not. I think you guys
are awesome. It's just not my style of music. It's
just not really my thing. But then he goes, however,

(45:16):
I have somebody that I think is one hundred percent
perfect for you, And so I was like, well, who
is it? And he's like a gentleman by the name
of Barry Kirch, And so literally about a week later,
he gave us Barry's number. I started talking to Stevo
about it. We talked to the band about it, and

(45:37):
you know, the guys were getting at this point in time,
like everybody was getting frustrated, and I just was trying
to tell everyone just calm down, it's gonna be all right,
Like let's let's give this guy a shot. And I'll
tell you what's interesting. Barry was number seven. And what's
even more interesting is Barry's birthday is the same day.
He shares a birthday with my dad. And there were

(46:00):
just all these things that lined up all of a sudden,
like none of these other drummers had anything. It was like,
all of a sudden, it's like seven snake guys. And
then he's got my dad's birthday. I was like, Okay,
this is interesting, and lo and behold, this brother happened
to be a program director for Planet Radio in Jacksonville, Florida.
So who is the who is still the program director

(46:23):
for Planet Radio in Jacksonville, Florida, which is Chad Chumley.
So anyhow, Barry comes in, and Barry was completely different
than everybody else because Barry came in with Holy Moly, man,
Like I get chills thinking about this actually, because I
remember when he came in, he knew all facets of

(46:44):
like drumming, Like he knew how to play jazz, and
he knew how to play like traditional style, and he
knew how to play like reggae and all these different things.
And he funk and like inspired by Prince and all
these different things. So he added all these wild elms
to everything. But he was very unassuming and very like
nice to be here and stuff like that. But when

(47:05):
he came in and he auditioned it, you know, it
was a it was a it was a wonderful audition
because he was kind of like doing a lot of
different things. But I remember his very his real audition.
The song forty five on the album Leave a Whisper,
that is the song that's been heard for the last
twenty years. The drum take on that song on that

(47:29):
record is Barries demo drum track. Really, yes, and that's
his audition that that that drum track is Barry's first
time playing. And really we showed him the song you
know and everything, and then we were like, just come

(47:49):
in here and play it, and we just all looked
at each other and but that that that drum take
on leave a Whisper on forty five, that's basically his
that's his audition, and it was yeah, it was after that. Man,
he was the guy. Okay, this band is not playing
out live? Is limit records keeping everybody alive? No, no, now,

(48:15):
you you have to like Judy helped keep me alive
during this time. I'm gonna be totally honest with you.
I had run out of money because and Steve was
working on it like Steve was because we gotta understand something.
At that point, we had a drummer, we could record,
you know what I mean, Like, we had the songs

(48:36):
and everything ready. So it was time to go to
Los Angeles. So we had a budget to go to
LA and all this. But before that happened, there was
like an eight month nine month window where like nothing
was happening except we were just practicing and trying to
get ready and we were writing songs and songs and
you know, me and Barry were getting to know each
other and all these types of things and what have you.

(48:57):
But I didn't have any more money. So I actually
had to go home to Knoxville for about two weeks.
But then I had to do sessions back in Jacksonville.
So I was driving back and forth from like Jacksonville
to Knoxville, like, you know, staying at twenty five dollars
a night Motel six you know this, and then the other.
And then Judy found out about this and found me

(49:19):
and said, well, actually she didn't say anything. She just said,
when's the next time you're going to when's the next
time you're going back to Knoxville. I was like probably
tomorrow night. She's like, when are you supposed to come
back here? And I was like, well, I mean if
I Judy, it's not your problem. And she was like,
I didn't ask that, and she was like when what
do you need to do here? And I told her

(49:40):
what I needed to do and she was like, how
long do you think I'm like until they call us
to LA Probably like six months. It ended up being
eight months, but I just threw out a number, you know,
I just did six months, and she was like, she
handed me a key, and she handed me a like
a garage door opener, and she gave me a and
she gave me a like a posted note with a

(50:02):
number on it, and she was like, this is the
guest house to my house. This is the gate you
go in, it's yours. There's no furniture in there. There's
a stove, there's a microwave and you know, refrigerator, you know,
but it's a place to stay. And so she housed
me for eight months rent free, and I told her

(50:26):
that I would That's a totally different story down the line,
but I told her. I was like, I have no
idea how I'm going to pay you back, but I
promise you I'll pay you back one day. And inadvertently
when the simple man thing happened. And I call it
a thing because it wasn't a planned thing. At the time,
she owned fifty one percent of the Leonards Ginnered catalog,
and I remember when that got released and she had

(50:47):
the ownership of half the catalog. I remember looking at
her going, I told you, I'll pay you back. Okay, amazing.
So you go to Los Angeles. What's the experience of
making the first record? Good back? Because a lot of
people say I was green and if I knew better,
I would have taken work control. How was it for you?
It was an absolute blast. It was the most fun.

(51:08):
I mean, honestly, it couldn't have been a better experience.
We were in Los Angeles. We were raising hell. We
didn't care. We were twenty two, twenty three years old,
you know, we were just having the best time it was.
It was amazing and honestly when we were in when
we were there, we got super lucky. We worked again,
going back to going back to Henson Studios. That's where

(51:29):
we did a bulk of the first record. Bob Marlette
was the producer. There's three producers on Levea Whisper and
there's three mixers, so Bob Marlette had the lion's share
of the album production wise, But then Tony Battaglia is
on there for the mix and the production of forty
five and also a version of Burning Bright, and then

(51:50):
Rick by Otto as a producer on three songs on
that record as well, and then for the Bob Marlette material,
Andy Wallace mixed his stuff. So there's a lot going
on on that record. But the experience of being out
there with Bob like that was like the bulk of
everything when we first got out there, and he was
just great, and he had great engineers and just amazing

(52:14):
people that we were able to work with because it
was he Bob made sure that it wasn't like it
wasn't stuck up, like yeah you're in LA, Yeah you're
at Henston Studios, but your this is your first record,
Like this is a celebration, Like you're supposed to ask questions.
It's okay to ask questions. It's okay if you make
a mistake. Yeah, the clock's running, but who cares. You know,

(52:35):
it's like we're gonna get what we need to get.
And I mean it really was. It was an absolute blast.
We had a great We had a great time. How
does McGathy get involved, McGaffey, You have to rewind it
a little bit. Steve. Oh again, Steve Robertson. I can't
stress the amount of how important Steve Robertson is to

(52:58):
this band and to this DNA of who we are.
He this was right before I think this was right
about the time, and I know the clock's running right now.
I'm trying to remember all the dates. It was probably

(53:18):
right when we were still in a demo phase. We
were still writing songs, like the band had just kind
of got going as far as like we we kind
of got into a function way with each other and
we were getting into a rhythm of songwriting, and STEVEO
was like, I want you to go to New York.
I want you to take a meeting with I want

(53:39):
you to meet with a few people. I think there
was four people I was supposed to meet. But the
very first person I wanted, a very first, very first
person I met, excuse me, was Bill McGaffey at one
nineteen West twenty third Street, New York, New York. I

(54:00):
remember I walked in and he didn't have a lot
of time. And for people that don't know who Bill
mcgathey is, he is the rock and roll mogul, like
he is the real thing. Like you don't get more
real than Bill mcgathey. And Bill's the last one with

(54:20):
a soul and Bill, you know, I remember Bill always
telling me from the from the beginning. He was always
straight up with me, and he said, remember it's about
the music one hundred percent of the time. Don't ever
lie because you got to remember the lies. But the
thing was, I walk into this. I mean it's like

(54:40):
Willie walking in the chocolate factory for musicians, like I
walked in to this. I mean it was indy as
Indy could get the entire walls, the ceiling, like how
high the building was. Everything. You walk into this room
and there's death side by side with each other. They're
catty corner to each other. There's no falls up between him.
People are on the phones, The phones are ringing, music's blasting,

(55:04):
there are gold, platinum, diamond records everywhere. People are yelling
at each other like they're I mean, it was like
it was like the New York Stock Exchange. It was crazy,
you know. And they're they're getting records, they're getting ads,
they're doing the thing. Man, They're they're they're running the business.
They're they're really they call it the music business for

(55:24):
a reason because it's still a business. And it was
my first introduction to that where it was just mind blowing.
And so he he comes up and he's very um,
you knew who he was, Like I didn't have a
picture of him or anything, but when he walked up,
I knew who he was because you could just tell.
It's just the way he carried himself. And so he's like,
let's go in the back, and we go in the back.

(55:47):
He's kind of like this conversation we're having right now,
kind of asking me about certain things, but he looked
at me. At a certain point in time, He's like,
and at the whole time we're back there, people are
yelling for him, and he's screaming, I'm busy, I'm busy.
I'll call him back. I don't care. Like it's just
in between me trying to stay on track with our conversation,

(56:08):
and I had to stop because it was just so
much chaos. And finally I just looked at him. I said, Bill,
why should you be my manager? Like I'm supposed to
meet with all these other people today, you haven't, like
I haven't really had a chance to ask you anything.
You're asking me everything and I'm in your world and
this is really intimidating, man, But why should you be
my manager? And he knew the label that I was on,

(56:31):
He knew more about me than I did about him.
And he looked at me and he said, Son, I'm
gonna tell you this right now. I am the only
person that will be able to get you through that
Atlantic record system. You can take that with you. I
gotta go. And then he got up and started yelling
at people and everything else, and I, like, I came

(56:51):
in there on my own. I just was and they
were like so I remember somebody looked at me, you
can go now. I'm like okay, and I just left.
But there was something about that moment in time, man,
where it was so rock and roll and it was
so like real to me, like what was going on
and that energy in that room and like they were
in it, like like I saw it with my own eyes,

(57:14):
and it was like, this is real. This guy is
not joking. This guy's real. I called Stevo from a
pay phone outside of one nineteen West twenty third and said,
I'm not going to any of the other meetings I wanted.
I want this guy. And then I went back to
the Guardia and had to wait eight and a half
hours to get on a plane and come back to Jacksonville.

(57:38):
And there you go, and the rest is history. Bill
mcgaffe's a busy guy, started out radio promotion. They have
multiple locks. He's obviously done a great job for you,
but can you get a hold of them. We're gonna
be here for four hours, which if Bob, and I'm

(58:00):
happy to deal with you. I'm having the best time
with you right now. Um. I talked to him for
two and a half hours today, like that guys my
second father. So you can essentially get him whenever you
need him at any time. And by the way it
works both ways, he can get me whenever he needs

(58:21):
me to Like it's it's twenty years man, and and
and I'm I'm looking forward to the next twenty you know.
It's uh, there's a We've been through a lot, man,
We got a lot more to go through. But no,
it's even from even from Jump Street man. And I'll
give you a story real quick, and I'll make it short.
But that first tour that we did where we went

(58:42):
out he was managing Three Doors down at the height
of their career um and we went out there with them.
And it was only supposed to be for three weeks.
And this is in two thousand and three, so this
is twenty years ago, and we were only supposed to
be on this tour for about two weeks. We ended
up being on this tour with Three Doors for nine months.
We went from being the first of four to buy.

(59:03):
The last two months of that nine month run we
were main support. I learned a lot from that band.
I learned a great deal from Brad Arnold about being
a front man and just respecting your crew and all
these different things. But I will fast forward here and
I'll never forget the record to come out. We were
on the road. We were making some noise, but it

(59:24):
was a little funky, and I remember he came out
to where the Stone Pony was. We were playing the
arena there, the same arena where Jim Morrison got arrested
for indecent exposure up in Jersey. I think it's I
think it's gone now. But it was first of four.
We walked out there. There was eight thousand people, but

(59:44):
there was only like three thousand in the building. Walked
out there, and you know, we were the first band
of the night, and Bill hadn't seen us play live
in like a few months, you know what I mean.
And it was terrible. We were a I mean, we
were awful. And I knew it too. I knew it

(01:00:06):
because we had partied the night before and my voice
was shot and everything else, if all the things that
you shouldn't do, you know. And we got off stage
and I find him out in the mezzanine of the
arena and everybody had gone in to go watch Three
Doors and he was all by himself. I walked up

(01:00:28):
to him, and he looked at me and he goes, hey,
And I looked at him and I said, please don't
leave me. I know it wasn't good. I know we
need to do better. I apologize. I promise you I
will do better. Please don't drop us, and please don't

(01:00:51):
give up on us, and please don't leave me. And
he looked at me, and he'll tell you to this
day that he didn't hesitate. But if I was him,
I would have, like anybody would have, I would have
taken a little bit longer of a pause. But he didn't.
And he looked at me and he goes, I'm not

(01:01:11):
going nowhere. Let's get to work. That's exactly what he said.
He said, I'm not going nowhere and let's get to work. Okay.
Was there a turning point or was it just long
hard work of the ladder, long hard work up It's

(01:01:34):
still that. It's still a mountain man. Every every every
single record, everything we do. I'll give you an example.
We had one of the best our touring schedule last year.
We broke twenty six merch records last year. You know
for us, you know, we were pushing the envelope. And
by the way, I'm gonna say this because it's true,
Like that's because of all of the foundation that we have.

(01:01:58):
And why I say that is it is a thousand
percent the fan base, but it's also one thousand percent
you know. Look, it's terrestrial radio in the very, very beginning.
It's still trestrial radio to this day. Even with the
consumption the music and the way that we platform everything
and streaming and all the way digital playlist, all those
types of things and how you consume the music, it's
still at the end of the day, if you mean

(01:02:20):
what you mean as a musician, as a songwriter, as
a performer, there's always going to be a ladder, there's
always going to be a mountain. You have to constantly
outdo what you've already done. That does not change. You
have to be willing to go through just unparalleled obstacles
in this business. Anybody that's listening to this right now,

(01:02:42):
you can never phone it in ever, You can never
ever have the mentality of I've arrived. You might as
well pack your bags. And the other thing too is
if you ever fall out of love with it, then quit.
You can always come back to it once you want
it badly enough, you know, what I mean, But don't
let it. You know, I don't think that this industry
to kill you either. You know, you got you gotta understand, like,

(01:03:03):
if this is what you want and this is who
you are, then drive, get in, get in the vehicle
and drive. But yeah, there was no magic bullet to anything.
There's no magic, you know, there's no method. It's just tenacity,
just unadulterated, pure tenacity. Okay, you're on the road for
nine months with freet doors down. You know, from the

(01:03:24):
outside it looks very glamorous, but from the inside, okay,
you got the same people you've been hanging with, in
your case for not that long, but at least, you know,
for a year or two. And you go on stage,
you get this incredible reaction, and if you're lucky enough
you have a bus, it takes a long time to
come down. You drive to the next city. This is

(01:03:47):
why a lot of performers do drugs. So you're now
having this experience, how do you cope into what degree
to alcohol and drugs come in pretty much right there
from the start, it's yeah, man, it's I mean, it
came in first record, first time we got I mean,

(01:04:09):
but it was happening. What I would always try to
maintain in the studio was that I never went to
the studio high or drunk. Like if I was in
there to work and I was in there to work
on a song, or I was in there to sing
or do a track, I was always clearheaded. Even in
the worst of times where I was at the you know,

(01:04:29):
kind of in the throes of my addiction, I still
never walked on stage high and drunk. I might have
been a little hungover from the night before, but I
never ever purposely got high and then went on stage.
I never ever purposely got high, got drunk, and then
went into a studio and then, knowing that I had
to do I had a session. But when I wasn't

(01:04:51):
on stage, you know, and you know, once my track
was done or my studio time was done, it's just,
you know, I immersed myself in that lifestyle. I mean,
you're talking to a you're talking to an individual that's
lucky to be alive from that world. But it's also
you're talking to somebody that understands that. For me personally,

(01:05:15):
I've been cleaned since March first of twenty sixteen. I
got clean in two thousand and eleven. But I had
to slip up in twenty fourteen. But the dynamic of
all of that is what I had to learn more
than anything, was the fact that there is another individual
inside of my mind that does not want to hang

(01:05:37):
out and party with me. Ultimately, he's trying to kill me.
You know, I admire people people that go in with
substance abuse, twelve step programs, rehab, if you need it,
all those elements, try everything that you can to survive.
That's how I would say it. But at the end

(01:05:58):
of the day, you have to understand that a lot
of people's rock bottom. Sometimes they don't come back from it.
I've had some serious rock bottoms. I'm lucky to be alive,
and I don't take it for granted. But what I
would say is for me, I had to do it.
I had to do it inside of myself. I often

(01:06:22):
tell people that I didn't do drugs today, I didn't
drink today. I have no idea what I'll do tomorrow.
That part of my life I have to do one
day at a time. But of a really good friend
of mine, a young lady who is still to this day,
she's a great friend of mine. Her name is Teresa.
She said something to me that was probably the most
profound thing when it comes to my addiction of the

(01:06:43):
forty five years that I've been on this earth. She
said to me, in the throes of my worst, she said,
you have a lot of people that love you. You
have a lot of people that depend on you. I'm
gonna tell you something. I want you to listen to me me.
I want she listened me good, I go okay. She said,

(01:07:06):
you are way more dangerous when you're sober. When you
are clear headed and you are focused and you are
locked in, that is when you are the most dangerous.
And what she meant by that was the idea that
being inebriated is that I'm this fun, loving guy and

(01:07:27):
that everything's cool and everyone wants to be around me,
is the complete opposite of what the reality is. You're
just not meant to be that that other part of
you that's inside you is not trying to have fun
with you, it's trying to end you. But when you
are clear headed and when you are sober, that's when

(01:07:48):
you're the most ferocious. And that really it was like
a light bulb like literally went off. So when I
think back to the younger days and all of the
drug use and everything of that nature. And I'm just
lucky to be a five. And of course with drug
and alcohol comes sex. Yeah, then were you partaking there too?

(01:08:09):
That was the interesting thing about me. Um, No, not really, Um,
that was ever my jam. It really wasn't. Like. The
one thing about me is that the women in my life, UM,
a lot of them. Uh, there's not that many of them,
and I'm still ninety percent of them. I'm still friends
with them and I still talk to him. I was

(01:08:32):
always monogamous. Um. You know, if I loved you and
I was in a relationship with you, then you know.
Me and my son's mother, you know, we were never married,
but we have a great relationship. We were together for
a long time and I adore her and I appreciate her,
and we have a great relationship and we have an
amazing son. Um and I respect her wholeheartedly. Um. She's

(01:08:57):
a huge part of why why I'm here. You know,
she I mean, if I think back, I mean she
was the one that handed the CD. She's kind of
the one that she kind of passed the tor you know,
passed the torch. You know, in a lot of ways,
but the women in my life. I have such a
massive respect for women on so many levels because of
the women that raised me. And like my mother. You know,

(01:09:20):
my mother was the one that taught me to like,
you know, don't shake hands, you know, like a whimp.
You know. She was like, you know, when you shake
someone's hand, whether it's a girl or a you know,
a male or a female, like you have to be stern.
You have to look him in the eye, like you know.
She taught me how to be a gentleman. But she
also taught me how to be tough, how to stand
up for myself, how to be who I am, um,
you know, how to be prideful and what have you.

(01:09:42):
But also how to help each you know, help people
out and and be a good man. You know, my
her mother, my granny, she gave me all of my
work ethic. You know. Um she's ninety one years old
and she's beyond the spitfire. I mean, she's still all there,
which is amazing because she gives you know, she's she's
an incredible individual. And that might be a lot of

(01:10:03):
the reason why I've just always had an immense amount
of respect for women. And you know, that type of
thing like orgies and all that kind of stuff and
a bunch of women and all that said. Never really
was my That never really was my thing. So why
did it end with the mother of your son? We
just weren't meant to be together, not in that way.

(01:10:24):
We have a beautiful son. We co parent together very well.
She's a beautiful woman inside and out. I adore I
think she's I think she's amazing. You know, it's just
we're just not. You have to be an adult and
look at the situation, and you know we're better as
co parents than we are together. And you know, it

(01:10:48):
doesn't change my respect for her, and you know, my
appreciation for her. And I think it's vice versa. Did
you want to have a kid or will you freaked
out about having a kid? No, our son was planned.
Like I remember the time too. She was like, I
know you don't want to get married, but I wanna. Yeah,

(01:11:09):
it was both of us, you know. She was just like,
I know you don't want to get married, but I
would really like to have a child, and I would
really like to have a child with you, So would
you think about it at least? And she never pressed me.
It was just like we thought about it and had
to think about it hard, and you know, so did I.
We were young, Um, but yeah, I mean it was

(01:11:31):
a conscious decision, you know, from the two of us.
And would you have any more children? I'm focusing on
the one. I'm not anytime soon. Um. I have such
an affection from my my son. You know, my son
is fifteen years old, and you know, he's six feet tall,

(01:11:54):
and he's playing basketball and he's he's so wild and
awesome and so many different levels, Like I'm blessed that
I have him, And you know, I would want to
be able to focus and concentrate on my children. And
the one thing about my son is that from the

(01:12:16):
moment that he was born. And I'm saying this for
a reason because it's important to know this. You if
you're going to bring a child into the world, you
need to be there for them. You need to focus
on being a parent because it's not their responsibility, it's
your responsibility. And until he's eighteen years of age, he's
my responsibility. But you know what, even after that, he's your's,

(01:12:39):
my son. So I need to be able to concentrate
on him. And you know, the younger years of his life.
I wasn't there as much, you know, not physically, anyway,
I was there, and I've always been there financially and
supportive in all of those elements. And I will fly in,
you know, when I can't, even if I can only
fly in for like a day or two days, just

(01:13:01):
to be with him, I'll be with him. And he's
never known any different, you know what I mean. So
the thing is is that some people might think that
we have an interesting relationship, and sometimes people will be like,
you know, you should probably spend more time with your son,
and I have to politely tell them me and my son,
and our relationship is between me and my son because

(01:13:23):
when I'm with him, we don't talk about the band.
When I'm with him, we don't talk about me. When
I'm with my son, it is only him. That's the
only thing I care about. That's the only thing I
want to be He's the only thing I want to
concentrate on. And the other side of that, too, is
it's not that he doesn't know that I'm in a band,

(01:13:45):
but because I've never made it about me from the
moment he was born, it doesn't really necessarily mean anything
to him, you know. I want him to have his
own life. I want him to be able to grow
up and not have this kind of you know, your
dad is this or what have you? I keep a
low profile that going back to the beginning of our

(01:14:05):
talk with each other, you know, being a rock star,
I'm only a rock star or a performer for the
for the set time. You know, I'm I'm pretty modest,
you know, when I'm not on tour. What do your
parents say about your success? Very proud, like like really
really proud. You know. Um, I think that people should

(01:14:30):
understand this too. This one of the biggest songs in
our catalog. You know. We just released a brand new
song off of the new record, which is our we
It's crazy to say this. We just released our thirtieth
single as a band in the last two decades. It's
mind blowing to me. And I go back to a

(01:14:52):
song called second Chance. And the reason I go back
to that song is it's a big song in our catalog.
But that song came from when I found out that
I got dropped. My parents had found out I got
dropped from the first record contract, but then I had
been resigned, and my mom was just like, what do
you mean? You've been resigned and now you're leaving to

(01:15:15):
go where. She had a hard time kind of wrapping
her head around it, and I remember we kind of
got into it with each other before I, before I
left for this what would become. You know, I had
left home because the first band I was signed, and
I was in Knoxville when I got signed, so we
did all the work in night. So I was still home.

(01:15:37):
I was still there, but now I was gonna leave.
And I remember sitting the Sunday before I left to
go to Florida to meet Steve. We used to when
I was a kid. She would um on Sundays. She
would go to McDonald's and she get McDonald's breakfast on

(01:15:59):
Sunday and we'd have like we'd have pancakes together, and
you know, we do hash browns and sauces, all that
kind of stuff. It was like our thing growing up
on Sunday. Remember I woke up on a Sunday and
I could smell it in the house and I like
walked upstairs to the to the kitchen and my mom
had it all laid out like it was just for
me and her, and she was like we had breakfast

(01:16:20):
with me and I was like, yeah, it's very sweet.
But here's the thing, And if I can tell you
a little bit about my history for just a quick second,
going back to being a hard kid to raise, I
also got in trouble with the law in my hometown
a lot. I was. I was a roughneck. And I

(01:16:44):
think that it's important to kind of know that because
my mom and my dad went through a lot with
me and they loved me unconditional. So we're sitting there
and we're having breakfast and we get kind of done.
I can tell my mom's getting a little emotional. So
I remember grabbing her hand and men like yeo, okay,
and she looked at me and she said, I want

(01:17:05):
you to get out of here. I want you to
run as fast as you can go because I have
no idea what this life you're searching for is or
what it means, but I know it must mean everything
to you because you're willing to sacrifice everything for it.
But you can't stay here. You can't stay in this

(01:17:27):
town because this town is going to swallow you up.
And I remember her giving me permission. She said, whatever
it is that you're going after it, go get it,
you know, And don't. But but don't you dare stop?

(01:17:47):
Go get it? And you know, years later, I'm sitting
in a studio and I remember the first chord rang
out when we were when we wrote it, and I
just remember hearing the first couple chords of the chorus,
and the very first thing out of my mouth was,
tell my mother, tell my father. I've done the best

(01:18:09):
I can to make them realize this is my life.
I hope they understand. I'm not angry. I'm just saying
that sometimes goodbye as a second chance, and I'm I'll
get emotional about it, but I have no choice because
I have to. But you know, she she gave me

(01:18:30):
my second chance. You know that's why song. I think
that song resonates with so many people. Um, but you
know a mother's love, you know, for their son especially,
you know what she had to endure to give me
this amazing gift and to tell me that she goes

(01:18:53):
me and your dad may not fully understand, but we're
with you. We're on your team. Go get it. So
when did you start to see some money from the
band and what did you do with the money. I'll
tell you this. I remember the very first time I
remember the first time. I didn't have a publishing deal yet,

(01:19:14):
and the first single was was Fly from the Inside.
And me and my producer Dave, we're hanging out here
right now. We were just talking about Fly from the Inside.
I'm in the studio right now, the studio that played
the first single for the very first time on air
right now. See is how the universe is real. But

(01:19:36):
I remember the first single was Fly from the Inside,
and then it had been played. I mean I think
it was made it to number five on the mainstream
rock chart. But I didn't have a publishing deal. This
is one of another thing with Bill McGaffey. Bill McGaffey
had all of these like back in the day, like
two between two thousand and two and two thousand and six,
publishing companies were given out insane amounts of month money

(01:20:00):
to like, brand new bands and what have you. And
they were doing this because they knew they'd never recoup
so they could just keep getting the residuals later on,
which unfortunately is you know, once again going back to
the music business. Remember, kids, it's a business, so pay attention.
But the very first time I got any real money

(01:20:23):
was a publishing check. But because Bill was like, you're
not signing these publishing deals because the catalog is too
strong right now, not for a debut album. And I
remember he got all kinds of hell for this because
people were like, what are you doing. You can make
so much money off this right now. He's like, no,
I want to be a part of this band's career.

(01:20:45):
I'm not trying to cash in right now. I'm trying
to look at longevity, so they don't need to sign
a publishing deal right this second. So because I had
the writer's portion of the song, and I had fifty
of the song because I wrote all the lyrics, you
have to understand I've never ever dealt with anything like
this before. I'm twenty three years old. And the very

(01:21:09):
first check, and this is in two thousand and very
very beginning of two thousand and four. Leave a Whisper
came out in May two thousand and three, I believe
May twenty seventh is when the record came out. And
this was like roughly I think February of two thousand
and four, and I got a check for seventy seven
thousand dollars and I did not know what to do,

(01:21:32):
Like I just remember like calling my mom and being like,
I don't even know how to explain this, mom, but
I have a check. But I've never seen a number
on a check this big. And she was like, well,
what is it, like a couple of thousand, a couple
of thousand dollars. I'm like, it's seventy seven thousand dollars
and like she dropped the phone. I remember it was

(01:21:55):
a clunk, and I'm like mom, and she was like, no,
I'm here, I'm here, she said. It was just one
of those things where it's like, you know, she was
like it's how much? And you know, and you know,
God bless her. You know, she worked at a bank
my whole life, so like the very first thing she did,
she was just like, we've got to open you up
a money market account all he says. She was just like,

(01:22:17):
you've got She was like please. And my mom was
so rad about all that. She helped me so much
in the very very beginning with all that. But yeah,
that was the first like real check I ever got,
and I just did not know what to do with it,
but because of my mother, I was able to I
invested it. So thanks mom. Okay, but you've been at
this for over twenty years now, have you saved most
of the money or have you spent it in that

(01:22:39):
you which you did spend what did you spend it on?
I mean in the first I mean, I do remember
this because I don't want to bore you with all
the details of like necessarily you know the ins and
outs of everything. I mean, this is what I'll say
to everybody out there. If you want to be successful

(01:23:00):
financially in the music industry, write your own songs like
That's what I'll tell you. And you need to learn
how to play live. Like you get those two things
going for you, you're gonna be okay. And the other thing,
you gotta have tenacity. And don't worry. You can learn
how to have tenacity. It's a skill. You have to
get good at it. You know, what do they say,

(01:23:21):
you know, ten thousand hours and then ten thousand more.
But I'll let you know, one of the most ridiculous
nights of my life with having that kind of money.
On the first record, I remember we were our schedule,
we were touring. We did like twenty two months straight

(01:23:43):
on leve A Whisper. And when I say twenty two
months straight, I'm not talking about like we would have
like two months off and then go out for three months,
and then we'd have like a couple of weeks here
and then you know, we go back out for another
two weeks and like that. I'm talking about twenty two
months straight like times. I mean, I think the longest
we ever did. I remember one time we had nine
shows in a row. Like it was just crazy, you know,

(01:24:06):
and you're young and you can do it and you
know this and then the other, but like you can't
sustain that. Nobody can. And I remember we had just
been out and this was like the back end of
two thousand and four, so the record came out and
in two thousand and three, so this was probably November

(01:24:27):
of two thousand and four, and we're in Houston, Texas,
and I hadn't had a shower, and like, I think
it was something. It was nasty, man. I mean it
was like two weeks I hadn't had a shower, and
I was so like we we were able to get
a hotel, I remember, because we had two days off.

(01:24:47):
So like I took money because I had money at
this point in time, and so I said, I remember
I took like ten grand and I like for the
for those two days, and I bought everybody in the
crew hotel rooms. We stayed at a super super nice
like Hyatt or a Hilton, and um, you know, the
bus was in there and took care of that. All
I wanted that night was a steak I just wanted

(01:25:09):
a steak dinner. That's all I wanted. And I wanted
to be alone. I remember that, And so I went
to this. I asked the I asked the the front
desk clerk. I said, is there like a really nice
steakhouse around here in walking distance? And he said, yeah,
there's a There's a place called Houston's, like about five

(01:25:29):
hundred feet from here. It's right over there. So I
walk over to Houston's. I don't remember what kind of
what day of the week it was, so I walk in.
I'm not showered yet. I'm just kind of you know,
getting off the bus, this and that and the other.
I go in and it's a nice place, and this
young lady at the front kind of like is a
little wild eyed because I don't I look pretty rough,

(01:25:52):
and she goes, can I help you? And I was like,
I just want to sit in the back. I just
want a table on my own. I won't be a bother.
I just want to steak dinner. Please, will you seat me?
Because everybody was dressed up in fancy and stuff like that.
For whatever reason. Man, she was cool with me and
she let me sit in the back. So going the
back had a cool waiter. The waiter came up to
me and was like, what do you want to drink?

(01:26:14):
And I was like, wine, like red wine. I didn't.
I didn't drink red wine. I drank Yeagermeister and Jack
Daniels and you know, just liquor. But I was like,
I'm in a nice place. I want to I want
to I want to steak dinner and I want some
red wine. You know, just a redneck on paydays what
we call it um and uh remember this is two

(01:26:37):
thousand and four. So I had a great server. So
I said, show me, like, what's a good bottle of wine?
He was like, I'm gonna give you a bottle of
opus opus one. For some people that are listening to this,
they'll know what opus one is. Um. So he brings
it to me. It was like a I think it
was like a two thousand or something like that. But

(01:27:00):
I remember the bottle that he gave me. The first
bottle was at the time, it's a six hundred dollars
bottle of water, a six hundred bottle of wine. And
I was like cool, and he just opens it. So
I take that bottle of wine out, and I take
another bottle of wine out, and I had a steak dinner,
and I was, you know, feeling full, very drunk. And

(01:27:20):
what I noticed, though, when I leaned back in the
booth that I was in, is that they had this
corridor of these two giant glass It was like a
corridor in the center of the restaurant and it was
filled with bottles of wine. So like their wine cellar
was like in the center of the restaurant. And so
I asked the kid that was the waiter. I was like,
can I go in and look at those wines because
there's a really really big bottle of wine in there

(01:27:42):
is a I am I seeing things And he was like, yeah,
that's like a we call that a magnum bottle. It's
like it's it looks almost like cartoonish, but it's a
real bottle of wine. It was a nineteen eighty bottle
of opus one. It was seven thousand dollars. And so

(01:28:04):
I walked in and I'm in there looking at it,
and the kid that let me in there, and so
here's this like I look like a bum. I look
like a homeless person in the middle of this nice
restaurant because you could see through the wine thing or whatever,
and all these people are looking in because there's this
whino in there, literally, and so the manager runs in

(01:28:26):
and he's like, get out of here. What are you
doing in here? And so the waiter runs and he's like, no,
no, no no, no, that's my patron or that's my that's
my customer. And he's like the managers like what and
he's like, no, no, he's with me. He's with me.
He just bought like this, like he's with me. And
I looked at the manager and I was like, how
much is this bottle of wine? This big bottle of wine?
And he was like, sir, you need to leave the restaurant.

(01:28:48):
And he's like no, like how much does this bottle
of wine? And he was like I'll go look, I'll
go how about that, I'll go look, but you need
to get out of here. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna
take the bottle with me. He's like, you're gonna leave
the bottle right there. So he walks out, and the
the kid that's my waiters like, you gotta go. And
I was like, Hey, I'm gonna get my bottle of wine.
And I take this bottle of wine. It's like a giant,

(01:29:10):
it's like a baby, It's huge. And so I walk
it out and I walked. I'd already paid my bill
at this point in time with the server, and so
I go up to the front where the manager is
checking out to see how much this bottle of wine is.
And he looks at me and he goes, it's seven
thousand dollars, and so I give him my credit card

(01:29:34):
and I was like, put it on this and he
laughs at me. And he's got all these like really
hot girls around him and stuff, little hostesses and this
and that and the other, and he's trying to be
you know whatever, and he basically runs the card and
it's approved and he goes and you just see his

(01:29:55):
face drop, and I'm like, is there a problem, Like no,
and he hands me the ticket and I take the
ticket and I sign it and I throw the bottle
over my shoulder and I walked to the doors, and
I turn around and I yell the line from Scarface
to the entire restaurant, say good nights of the bad Guy,

(01:30:19):
and then I walked out. Well that's an amazing story.
I could talk about that for ten minutes. But how
many houses do you own and how many cars do
you own? I don't own a house and I don't
own any cars. I had a house in Thousand Oaks, California,
from two thousand and eleven to two thousand and sixteen,

(01:30:40):
and then I sold it because of those times that
I was there. Of the five years that I was
in the house, I was only inside the house maybe
seven months, seven or six or seven months. I sold
it to a family when I went on tour in
two thousand and sixteen, and I haven't had a home since.
So I live in hotels and I rent cars everywhere

(01:31:03):
that I go because I'm not in a location long
enough to merit owning a house, because I move constantly.
I mean I'm on the road. Going back to the
beginning of our conversation, you know I'm probably on the
road even off cycle. I'm on the road around two
hundred and eighty days out of the year because I'm
constantly doing business for the band. I'm constantly taking meetings

(01:31:26):
and doing certain things, and I'm networking with other you know,
procedures and different things that we're setting up for the
band and different timelines and touring, and so I'm constantly moving.
I'll eventually figure out where I want to, like, you know,
put roots down and what have you. My son will
need to be a little bit older, so I know
kind of where he's gonna be and where he's gonna go.

(01:31:47):
He wants to go to the NBA. He's a hell
of a basketball player. We're gonna see what happens with that.
But you know, it doesn't really make a whole lot
of sense right now, and I'm on the road so much.
But yeah, I am a I am the definition of
a modern day gypsy without I don't steal, though, I
love you gypsies. What credit card do you use? Uh?

(01:32:12):
The card that I use the most is my American
Express Platinum. That's the one I use the most. Have
they solicited you first Centurion card? Yes, it's it's not
a myth. It's not a myth. It is a real thing.
And you just said it's not worth the price it's
just I mean, it's just it's more of a status

(01:32:33):
And here's the thing about it. I'm gonna get in
so much trouble, Um, American Express. I love you, I
love you for all that you do. You're you're a
great company. I'm I'm not even joking, um, but I
gotta say this, the Platinum card is going to give
you a hundred times more benefits than the Black card.
There's I mean, it's a status thing, the Black card.

(01:32:57):
And the thing about it is is, if you want
to get down to the brass tacks of it, the
Platinum card is going to give you way more benefits,
especially owning an LLC, being in a band, with all
the flights and the hotels and all those different types
of things. I mean, you just get exorbitant amount more
points on the Platinum card than you would on the

(01:33:17):
Black card. It just doesn't make any sense. Okay. So
you know the world has even changed musically since you've
been in the landscape. So what do we know? Streaming
dominates many artists or anti streaming. There's a lot of

(01:33:41):
negativity about labels. Rock used to be the dominant format.
It's not the dominant musical style. Now, what do you
think about all this? I think that whoever wrote that
isn't a touring musician and isn't somebody that makes music

(01:34:02):
for a living and write songs for a living. I'm
not trying to be offensive. I'm just being honest. The
reality of that is sometimes that type of ideology comes
from journalists that are getting fed certain stats from other journalists,

(01:34:22):
from other conglomerates. What I would tell you is this,
anytime you have an opportunity for your music to be heard,
say thank you, thank you very very much, because at
the end of the day, the evolution of the music
industry is not going to stop. Like it's just not

(01:34:45):
going to So you have a lot of people in
the beginning of the streaming era that we're complaining about streaming,
and these young kids today, and you know, this younger
generation doesn't know anything about what it takes to make
a record and put it on a CD and and
have all these what about all these stores? And I'm like,
you're absolutely right. They have no idea what a CD

(01:35:06):
is because they didn't grow up in that era. They
have no idea what it is. That's not their fault,
first of all. And so you sound like you sound
bitter to these, to this younger generation, when you're acting
like that, you gotta get on their level and understand
that once again, ladies and gentlemen, it's a business. It's

(01:35:26):
called the music business for a reason. And so what
you gotta do is you have to learn how to maneuver.
We often talk and shine down about the brick wall.
If you run head first into a brick wall, I
guarantee you the brick wall will win. You got to
figure out how to negotiate with it, how to go
around it, go under it, go You know, there are
other ways to look at the obstacles in front of you.

(01:35:49):
But I will tell you this. We were the number
one album the first week that Planet Zero came out
on six different charts on Billboard, and one of those charts,
we were the number one record on vinyl. And you
know the other side of that too, is we are
a physical selling band. We signed seventeen thousand covers of

(01:36:12):
Planet Zero before the album came out. Well, how did
we do that? We signed seventeen thousand covers because we
sold seventeen thousand covers in a pre sale before the
record came out. Because we gave everybody an option if
you want to sign copy of this record, if you
buy it now, you'll get a signed copy. And we
actually had to cap it because we could have kept going.

(01:36:35):
It's just we didn't have the physical time to keep
signing records. Because all four of us, seventeen thousand, it
took us. Like it took us, we had to send
I remember we had to send them to each other
because we weren't all together at the time before we
got on the road. But that's what I mean. I'm
using that as an example because there are ways to

(01:36:55):
sell your music, you know, there are ways to do
these things. And the thing that we look at with
the stream services are we go to them and say
to them, we would love for you to think about
us for all your playlists. We have a record coming out,
we have a new single coming out, We've got a
new video coming out. Terrestrial radio I cannot say this enough.
And it's not because I'm in the birthplace of one

(01:37:16):
of the greatest radio stations in North America. But the
point being is that rock radio, but just terrestrial radio
in general, has been there for us from the beginning.
By the way, we're one of the only bands in
the United States that has crossed five different formats multiple
times in the last twenty years. When Casey Casum signed

(01:37:38):
off the air, probably one of the most famous American
DJs in the history of radio after thirty nine years
of being in radio when he signed off the air
because it was the number one song in the country
on the Hot one hundred was second Chance. So we
know what it means to cross formats to You should
not have boundaries. It shouldn't be about your music. Shouldn't

(01:37:59):
be put into a box. Don't let nobody, don't let
them put you into a box. Like the dynamic of
the fan and the artist, that's a relationship that has
to be There has to be respect involved in that.
But to the people that talk about how if streaming
ruined the business or it ruined the model, maybe you're

(01:38:20):
being lazy, maybe you're not looking at it the right way,
Like nobody owes you anything. They really don't. We can
all talk about it. In this industry. I hear it
all the time. How people just talk about, you know,
they're not making any money, and you know their music
is worthless and it's disposable, and why should I even
record music? Well, then quit quit because there is somebody

(01:38:45):
that will take your place. Somebody wants it more than
you do. And I just we've curated this fan base
that is every single year continuously growing, and that's because
we self physical records. In my opinion, we let the
fans talk to us about our merchandise, from our sweatshirts
to our hats, to our hoodies, to our you know,

(01:39:06):
all of the merchandise that we present, to the music,
to the way that they interact with us, our websites,
our platforms, all the streaming services. You know, I could
go down the list. I don't want to be, you know,
given everybody favorites and what have you. But YouTube and
Apple Music and Deezer internationally and Spotify, she Zam, Pandora.
We're part of the four billion stream club in Pandora.

(01:39:28):
They just gave us a plaque like three three months ago.
I'm still baffled by that. You know. It's there's a
lot of success here and it does generate revenue. And
believe me, we have a system of what we do
in this band that did not happen overnight, especially when
it comes to what we do live like we're responsible
for seventy seven. Crew members now include and that's not

(01:39:51):
like that's truck drivers, that's bus drivers, that's all the techs.
That's tour managers, production managers, lighting, pyrotechnics, video aging. It
goes on and on and on. It is a machine.
It is a machine that is built by It's built
by the love of the show. It's built by the
love of the music. Yes, the music is very important,

(01:40:13):
but there's all these different aspects of how this industry works.
And I get passionate about it and I get very
very hypersensitive to it and focus because I want people
to understand, especially the younger generation, don't don't limit yourself
and don't come up with excuses like, oh, it's this now,
or it should be this, or it should be that.
There are kids that are being born right now. They're

(01:40:36):
not gonna have any idea ten years from now like
what it was like to either listen to music or
sell music or any of that. And that's you have
to evolve. There's a great line in the movie Moneyball
where Brad Pitt says, adapt or die. You don't have
to sell out, you don't have to sell your soul.
You don't have to stop making the music that is
truly who you are. But if you want to be

(01:40:57):
in this industry, you have to learn to adapt and
you have to figure out what works for you. And
you don't have to be a part of the industry
if you don't want to. You know, I have this
conversation about TikTok. I think it's amazing what TikTok does.
Like all of these kids out there that just have
insane imaginations and it's just awesome to watch and they're

(01:41:18):
so creative and it just blows me away, and like
take the music and take you know, they'll take all
these different songs. I love how the younger generation they
don't care about an expiration date because it doesn't exist
for them. They don't care like when a song came out,
Like look at Kate Bush with Stranger Things that rekindled
her existence, you know what I mean. Think about Metallica.

(01:41:40):
Not that Metallica isn't working, you know, hard every single year,
but look what happened on Stranger Things with Master of
Puppets and opening up a big door, a huge door
to another generation of fans that should be embraced. And
I just love that the younger generation They don't care
if something came out in nineteen seventy five. If it
sounds good and it's awesome, that's all they care about.

(01:42:00):
I think that's I think that's awesome. Okay, people just
say we do have the Internet, and it led to
a lot of things you just talked about. But to
what degree do you and the band interact with your
fans on these varying platforms and how important do you
think that is? I think it's important if you want to.

(01:42:21):
Here's the thing about us. We always try to have
at certain times a bit of a mystique because everything
is out there now there are everything is out there
to the public, and some artists choose to just be
every single second, every part of the day, this is
what I'm doing, this is what's happening, you know, and
they kind of put their entire lives on display. We

(01:42:43):
I feel like, have a really really good balance and that.
But we're very involved with our social media. We're very
involved with our digital campaigns and what we do and
how we interact with our audience, not only in North
America but also just around the globe. So we're also
constant learning, whether it's from Facebook or snatchap or TikTok

(01:43:03):
or Instagram or I mean, there's so many different platforms
that we use now. And that's another thing too, there's
just so many of them. You just want to do
your best to be authentic. Like that's our biggest thing
is we're like, I'm not gonna go like I do
tiktoks if I think they're cool or it's something that
I would do or I find it fun. But well,
I go and like do something silly and like do

(01:43:25):
a dance and make myself you know why, I poke
fun at myself. Sure, I don't care, you know, as
long as it's authentic to me and it's something I
would do. Now, if I look at something, I'm like,
I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna do it. You know.
That's kind of how you have to look at it.
But I think that it's bad. I think that it's awesome,
and I think that it's a badass that we have
this kind of communication with our audience because some people

(01:43:49):
might say that what takes kind of the mystique out
of it, doesn't it not necessarily everybody's different, and it's
all how you want to curate, how you want to
curate your social platforms. I mean, there's there's no handbook
to social media. There's really not. You can see a
bunch of stuff on YouTube and they'll tell you about
algorithms and all those things, and I'm sure there's a
juxtaposition there and you don't want to be desensitized to

(01:44:11):
those platforms. And I'm sure you can get in there,
and you can, as I would say, you could mister
beast it if you wanted to. But there's only one
mister Beast, you know, and he's brilliant at what he does,
but his entire life is as an algorithm on YouTube.
That's why he's got one hundred and thirty nine million subscribers.
But that's not that's not my gig, you know what
I mean. And I think one of the smartest things

(01:44:33):
that we did for our social media was the fact
that we're on a record label that has over two
hundred and fifty artists and we actually work with two
different record labels. We work with Atlantic Records and then
we work with promotion with Electure Records under the Warner
Music Group. And about four and a half, I guess
it's been five years ago now, I hired a young
lady named Morgan Townsend and who she was. She didn't

(01:44:56):
necessarily know what she was getting herself into because I
didn't know what she was getting herself into. But going
back about five years ago, with social media and what
have you had management companies and you had the labels,
and they have a digital department and they have somebody
there that does digital. But when you have two hundred
and fifty bands, you're only going to be able to
concentrate so much uncertain bands or certain artists. And it's

(01:45:19):
not even about the genres, because it's it's limitless when
it comes to that when you're on a label and
you've got all these different genres of music. Same thing
with a management company, you have all of these different
artists one person. It's just too much work. So what
we decided to do was go out and try to
find somebody that would be willing to kind of come

(01:45:40):
in and learn with us. And it was basically, what's
the job description. You're gonna take this band, and you
and this band are going to figure this out together
for what works for this band. We're gonna learn how
this what works and what doesn't work. I often tell
people sometimes what works for Shining Down is probably not
going to work for some other band, and what works
for that band, it probably won't work for us. And

(01:46:02):
a lot of times too, when people describe other bands
to me, I'm appreciative of that. When they're trying to
I guess you would say, give me an analogy, but
I also have to tell them, I appreciate you giving
me the analogy. I'm not in that band, I'm in
this one. So when we hired this young lady you
know who is our we gave her a tie, We
had to create a title. She's she's our social media

(01:46:25):
media manager and she's the director of Digital Media for Shiningdown.
But we had to learn how to do all that
stuff together. And she works with the label like one
hundred percent of the time. She works with management one
hundred percent of the time, but she's hired by the band.
So I would tell anybody out there with social media,
take a certain amount of money and focus bringing somebody

(01:46:48):
in that can literally manage your social media, because I'll
tell you right now, it can be the difference if
you have a strong social media game in your success,
especially you know twenty and twenty three and beyond at
least right now. Okay, But on your new record, there's
all this commentary about social media the Internet. We're talking

(01:47:11):
about keeping people off the social media sites, keeping certain
actors off of it because they consider them to be
bad actors. And I'm not talking about people on stage
or screen and screen time, etc. So how do you
know we just heard all the stuff about social media.
Where exactly are you guys at on this Well, we

(01:47:32):
wrote Planet Zero the record in the middle of a pandemic,
and in the middle of a pandemic, it was not
something that everybody. I mean, we didn't wake up in
February of twenty twenty and be like, you know, it
would be fun, let's shut the world down, and we
watched the chaos that ensued inside of that. And granted,

(01:47:54):
we don't need to be going on and on about
that anymore because that was then and this is now.
But you asked me a legitimate question. I want to
give you a legitimate answer. You know, we had no
choice on this record but to write about what was
going on. We tried to have a crystal ball method,
if you will, in the beginning of writing this record,

(01:48:15):
because we looked at each other and we were like
nobody's gonna and we started writing it in twenty twenty,
and it was let's write like it's three years from now.
Let's do it that way. Well, just we'll act like
this isn't even happening, But it was happening all around us.
I arrived in Charleston, South Carolina, with Eric, the producer

(01:48:37):
of Planet Zero, and the mixer and the engineer of
the record, our bass player who also did the last record, engineered,
mixed it, and produced it. We built a studio in
eighteen weeks because we didn't know when we were going
to be able to get into a studio to start recording,
so we just took eighteen weeks on his property and
built a studio from the ground up. And while we

(01:48:58):
were doing that, we're also watching the news. You couldn't
stop but look at your device. You know, everything that
was going on, the social injustice, the you know, the
plague of COVID nineteen and everything that was going on
with that, the divisiveness. It didn't help that it was
an election year, this time in human history, where people
should have been banding together. In America, we had the

(01:49:20):
most i mean polarization I've ever seen in at the time,
the forty four years that I've been alive. So trying
to write a record on good faith of all these
different elements that you know, we're trying to act as
if this stuff isn't going on around us was virtually impossible.
And I just remember Eric looking at me when I

(01:49:42):
got to South Carolina in June. He said, it feels
like we're on planet zero. That's exactly what he said.
And Planet zero was the first song written. And I
know what you're talking about with you know, the language
and the record and the dynamic of s and things.
You know, the last song on the album, which is

(01:50:04):
a song called what You Wanted, and it talks about
it has that lingo in there like it didn't subscribe
and all these different types of things, and you know,
the course of that song is like goodbye, so long,
see you later, good night. Did you get what you wanted?
You know? Is this what you wanted? And that you
got to remember that was written in the midst of
everything that was going on in not only the United

(01:50:25):
States but the entire world. And we're a band that
has to talk about what we know, the situations that
we're in front of in the scenarios that we're being presented,
and once again, how do you overcome it. You have
to talk about what it is and what it means
and what's actually going on, but you also have to
dissect it and make sure that everybody's looking at everything

(01:50:45):
with the wool not being pulled over their eyes. And
there's so much symbolism in the record, but there's a
lot of truth in the record. And I remember one
of the earliest songs that was written on Planet Zero,
aside from Planet Zero, the song and What You Wanted,

(01:51:06):
Those were two of the songs that were actually written first,
but I remember I think it was right after we did.
I think it was right after What You Wanted. My
favorite song on the record was written, and that's a
song called a Symptom of being Human. And the symptom
of being human in a lot of ways is a gift.

(01:51:27):
And why I call it a gift is on every
record you hope to get one gift. You don't always
get a gift on a record. But what a gift
is is a song that writes itself. It comes out
of nowhere. You didn't wake up that day expecting to
write this song with these heartfelt lyrics and this crescendo
of sound, it just happens. And that's exactly what occurred

(01:51:50):
with A Symptom of Being Human. And the interesting thing
about it was inside of all the chaos that we
were watching on television and on our smartphones, and we're
trying to dissect everything that was going on. We're trying
to build a studio and we're trying to think about
what kind of record we're gonna make and are we
going to piss people off? And we've never talked about
this type of stuff, and we've never done this before,
and we've never been political, and we've never talked about

(01:52:11):
these things. What are we doing is it's the right thing.
So many things that we're just coming to a boiling
point and then all of a sudden, this song falls
into our lap and it's literally an example of the
human spirit. It could not be a more honest and
heartfelt song about being a human being and about living

(01:52:35):
on this planet and having the gift of being alive
right now because you're not promised tomorrow, and you know,
A Symptom of being Human is exactly that. It talks
about the uncertainty of tomorrow. It talks about the uncertainty
of oneself. It encompasses this time in human history where
everybody is now talking about mental health. Where it used

(01:52:57):
to be about diet and exercise. Now it's about survival
of the human spirit. It's about really the survival of
our species. Because during the pandemic suicide rate, this is
the most disturbing thing about it. In two nineteen, at

(01:53:17):
the end of the year, one thing I should tell
your listeners is that shine down. We've for the last
decade we've been ambassadors for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention,
and the projection at the end of twenty nineteen was
that the year twenty twenty was on record and hopes

(01:53:41):
statistically to be the lowest number, to be the lowest
percentage of suicide in North America in twenty twenty in
over a decade, like they were projecting for for the
rate to drop drastically in twenty twenty, and then the
pandemic hit. November of twenty twenty. The stats were released

(01:54:04):
and I don't have the exact numbers, but I do
remember this that men and women aged fourteen to forty five,
it was the highest percentage in the last decade, so
it was completely reversed. What was supposed to be the

(01:54:27):
lowest percentage became the highest percentage in over a decade.
And that was part of why Symptom was such an
important song and how it was about, you know, it's
it's okay to struggle. It's okay. I know it feels
like it's never gonna end. I know it feels like
there's no tomorrow. I know it feels like everything is

(01:54:49):
just crashing around you. You have to hold on. You've
got to hold on. I'm not saying that you're not
gonna have to put the work in. I'm not saying
that it's not going to be difficult to get out
of that hole that we talked about at the beginning,
you know where sometimes you got to fall in a
hole to figure it out. But the world didn't quote unquote,
people didn't quote unquote ask for a pandemic to happen.

(01:55:10):
It just happened. Now you got to figure out a
way to give everybody back their spirit. Now you got
to figure out a way to build people up. And
the most powerful way to do that that I know
of is with music. Because where I come from, music
is medicine. And that's why I just feel it's you know,
that song is extremely important. Okay, you know you've talked

(01:55:33):
about the new album. Underneath this is the p word politics. Yeah,
now you have a luxury. You didn't go on a
plane for your first two decades. Basically, Now you've been
all over the world many times. Okay, now we live. Okay.
In terms of my experience with Tennessee, which is relatively limited,

(01:55:54):
I've been in Nashville, I've been to Memphis. Both in
Tennessee couldn't be more different, right, I know some people
from Knoxville. I have not been to Knoxville. But what
I'm saying is, yes, there is red and blue, there
is VACS, there is anti vax, there is Twitter. We

(01:56:15):
should have certain people shouldn't be on there, certain people
should be on there. Since you and an addition, perception
is that rock fans lean right, modern rock fans is
supposed to people fans of classic rock whatever. Yeah, Well,
what do you see since you're out there and what's

(01:56:37):
going on? What I see, honestly is the best way
I can say it is this because this is how
I feel and how I view it all. It goes
back to your smartphone, because that's kind of a part

(01:57:00):
of us now in our society, And anybody can argue
with me if they want to, but I mean, it's
just the reality for the people that can afford it,
and it's very affordable now because it's a part. Like
there's so many people that I know that they will
literally go into an absolute panic attack if they forget
their phone or they like they dropped it or they

(01:57:22):
left it somewhere or they busted or whatever. I mean,
I've watched people like people that I've known for years,
like if something happens through their smartphone and they lose
it or they forgot it or it's not with them,
they will freak out. So why am I saying that?
And why am I? You know, what does that have
any relevance to do with rock and roll? And to
the right? And you know, whether you're a Democrat or Republican,

(01:57:43):
red or blue or liberal or what have you, I
will tell you this right now. For me personally, I
think that there should be three parties. I don't think
there should just be two parties. I think two parties
it's kind of ridiculous at this point anyway. I think
there should be a third party. Will that ever happen.
I have no idea, and I'm talking about in North America,
but that's my opinion because it's just it's intense on
both sides. And the thing about it is, what I

(01:58:05):
would tell you is this, if you get outside of
your phone, if you get off of certain social media
and take a break and go out into the real world.
I'm talking about the real world where and you're talking
about Tennessee, Memphis, Knoxville, Nashville. Those three places are actually

(01:58:28):
more similar than you think because a lot of Nashville, Knoxville,
in Memphis, a lot of the same minded people. You'd
find him in Colorado. In Colorado, you'd probably find him
in Maine. In Maine, I bet you. I'm gonna say it.
It's gonna probably not necessarily sit well with certain people
because they won't believe me, but I'm gonna tell it's true.

(01:58:51):
People in Maine you would probably find that the way
that they look at politics is ride in line with
a lot of people in Florida. Oh here's the thing
what I'm getting at. When you go out into the
real world and you get off of this constant news feed.
Remember how back in the day news would come on
three times, and that's all you got. And they would

(01:59:14):
just tell you the news, and like at three o'clock
they would give you the news, and then at like
eleven o'clock they give you the news, and sometimes five o'clock,
at five o'clock they give you news. They give it
to you again at eleven and a lot of places
the five o'clock news was the same as the eleven
o'clock news. It didn't change that much. You have a
constant filter, a constant iv of just carnage. How bad

(01:59:38):
is it, Like, let's get every bad. It's nothing can
be good. We can't have anything that's good. It's got
to be bad. And it's just it's clickbait a lot
of times, you know, they're looking for likes, they're looking
for they want you to hit the button. So if
from the political side of things, when you go out
into the real world, people aren't trying to destroy each other,

(02:00:01):
I'm not. I'm not. I don't see that. I don't
see people, you know, actively trying to mess with one another.
I don't actively say and I'm I've gone all over
the world. I will continue, God willing, you know, to
go all over the world for as long as that
I'm meant to be here. But that is a focus

(02:00:21):
that it doesn't necessarily have to become political. And I
often tell people this too in society. We live in
a country where it's a democratic republic and it's it's
laid out a certain way for a reason, and everybody

(02:00:42):
has an opinion about it. Now, do I think that
certain amendments should be updated, Yes, I do think that
they should some of them, but a lot of them
are in that constitution for a reason, to not have
full on anarchy, to not have full on just chaos.
And the best thing that I can tell you is

(02:01:04):
I believe that human beings are inherently good. I truly do,
because I've seen it with my own eyes on a
daily basis. If you're looking for chaos, I guess you
can find it anywhere. But in the last three years,
what I've noticed, in what I've seen is that everyday,
people that make up the majority of this planet. I'm

(02:01:25):
not just talking about America, I'm talking about the majority
of the planet. There are more of us than there
are of them. And what I mean by that is
political figures should be put in office by the people
to represent the people You're not God. That's not the
way it should be looked at. And I'm not for
career politicians. I don't think that, you know, if you're

(02:01:47):
in the Senator of the Congress, you can you know
you get in when you're thirty five, that you need
to stay there until you're a hundred. So, you know,
I'm saying a lot of things that a lot of
people feel. I'm trying to explain also too, it's not
just about rock and roll. It's not just because somebody
is into rock and roll music. That person could be
into hip hop music. That hip hop music person could
be into country music. You know, music is our saving grace,

(02:02:11):
if you will, It's what keeps us all, it's what
glues us together. So isn't it interesting and the human
history that the universe and Mother Nature tested everybody? Because
I can tell you right now you're talking about the Internet.
The Internet everyone wants to say is undefeated. I can
tell you that is not true. Mother Nature is undefeated.
She proved that, and she's proved it time and time again.

(02:02:31):
And isn't it interesting how the universe and Mother Nature
gave human beings an opportunity to see what we would
do in these last three years, and everybody has to
kind of look at each other and go, what did
we do? What have we done? And what are we
going to do now? And that's the biggest question. But

(02:02:53):
when it comes to music, that's what joins us together.
So you take two years and everybody says, stay away
from each other, don't go anywhere near one another, stay away,
you want to do your part, stay apart. It's just
very interesting how life unravels sometimes and unfolds at the
same time. We don't know how long we're here, but

(02:03:17):
while we're here, I think we should do everything that
we possibly can to be together and to celebrate together
and to push forward together. That's ultimately what I see
in people. It's not about red or blue. It's just
about being human and being respectful. Okay, so you've had
this incredible career in excess of two decades, you've had

(02:03:38):
a lot of success. Looking forward, what would you like
to accomplish or what mark would you like to leave? Bob,
we were having such a good time and now you
want to get all dark, like you're talking about the
end of stuff. What I want to leave I haven't
even begun. I think that for me and I know

(02:04:06):
for the band. When I look at it all, I
want to see all the guys that I'm in a
band with. I want to see them fulfilled. I want
to see Eric and Zach and Barry. I want to
see them all four of us. I mean, because we

(02:04:26):
are in a band together, I want us to be
honest with each other, because we've always been honest with
each other. That's one of the reasons why we've been
a band for as long as we have. The reason
I'm bringing this up is because it's important, because it
comes down to the band. Your happiness depends on your
mental health, your communication with each other. You know, because

(02:04:50):
as time changes two decades, one guy might want one
thing in the beginning, another guy might want something different.
Ten years down the line, another guy might. You know
what I mean, It goes back and forth. It's constantly evolving.
I want to be able to continue to make the
best music and the strongest music and the best songs
that we possibly can. I want to continue growing the audience.

(02:05:10):
I want to continue having the opportunity and the blessing
of being able to travel the world. There's yes, You're right,
I've We've been all over the world to a lot
of different places, but we've not been everywhere. And there's
a lot of places that we want to go to,
and there's a lot of places that we want to
play for, and a lot of people we want to
play for that we haven't had an opportunity to yet.
You know, all of us have kids that are growing up.

(02:05:34):
You know, Zak has two young boys, Barry's daughters, Stella
is approaching being a teenager. You know, we're all family men,
and we love our families. We we care about them.
I gotta give a lot of credit to to the
women in this in this band and the wives, because

(02:05:56):
they really do get it. They really do understand what
it is we do gone for a long period of time.
It's we're at a certain point in our career now
where we can bring them out for long periods of time,
which helps out a lot. But we just want to
continue being successful. We're never ever gonna there's never gonna
be a top, They'll never ever be a ceiling with us.
I don't think it exists. We've always looked at it

(02:06:19):
the same way. Everything that we do together. It's like
looking at a mountain, and if you're looking at the
mountain and it's just you and you're staying to yourself.
There's absolutely no way I can get to the top
of this. You're probably right, not by yourself, but if
you do it together, you're probably limitless. And you know,
each mountain you climb together, you take a minute when

(02:06:39):
you get to the top, and you high five, you
give each other a hug, you say a good job,
and you go find a bigger mountain. And that's why
we're here. You know, things could change, things could evolve.
I think we all want to watch our kids grow
up and become young adults and have families, and we
want to be there for them too. But ultimately, I

(02:07:00):
don't think I can stress it enough. How lucky we
are to do what we love for a living. My
granny always used to say, if you find something you
love that you want to do for the rest of
your life, and you'll never work a day in your life.
Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of work. It's
it's hard work, but I live for it. I love it,

(02:07:23):
and that in and of itself is a gift to
be able to do what you love for a living.
So I just want to keep grinding and on that note,
I think we're going to close it for today. We
certainly could go on for much longer, but we'll let
the audience take a break at this point. So, Brent,
I want to thank you so much for taking the

(02:07:44):
time to talk to me in my audience. It was
an absolute pleasure and a massive, massive honor. Thank you
so so much. This is one of the best conversations
I've had in the longest time. I had a blast,
and I love talking to you too. Okay, till next time.
This is Bob left Sense

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Bob Lefsetz

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