Desmond Child

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is musician, performer songwriter Desmond Child. Hey,
I gotta ask you why, Desmond Child. Okay, I was
going to Miami Beach High along with some other notables
like Mickey Rourke and Andy Garcia. Were they there when

(00:32):
you were there? Yeah? Yeah, because Mickey was one year
ahead and um Andy was two years behind. Did you
know them? Mickey was my protector from the bullies, really yeah,
but that started in junior high at Nautilus. And do
you still have contact with him? It's it's like one
of those soul things. When you see him, you can act.

(00:54):
But yeah, but every ten years we run into each
other in the strangest places and we talked for three
and then I don't see him for another ten years. Okay,
so keep going. So you're going to I'm going to
Miami Beach High. And you know, I Beach High was
like nine o two one oh because all the parents
were either Italian or Jewish and they all built ran

(01:17):
or whatever all the hotels on Miami Beach. So all
the parents they put so much money into that school.
So it was like a private school and how many
kids went to the school, do you remember? No? But
I was like busting myself in from the projects. You
remember that movie Moonlight. Yeah, sure, those projects. That's where
we live for twelve years. And I just was going

(01:40):
to Edison Junior High School and it was like no
learning being done. It was all like, you know, okay,
just the way, because did you work the angles so
you could get into that school like you're living with
your mother or with my aunt? Yeah, and so I
it was three busses to get there, and uh, it
was extraordinary, and so on the law, you know, during

(02:04):
lunch there was a lawn and the kids were out
there smoking whatever, wandering off to restaurants where you'd see
the principal in way you weren't even supposed to be
off school grounds. And um, there was a a girl
and she sort of looked like Yoko. She had this
long black hair and granny glasses, all dressed in black,
and she was playing acoustic guitar and she was playing

(02:27):
her own song. And you know, because my mom was
a songwriter, and I guess maybe there was a kind
of connection. And her name was originally Deborah Walstein, and
then everyone called her Debbie Wall, and we just immediately
bonded and we decided to become a duo. So we
loved the name night Child, you know, so she did

(02:48):
Why did you like the name night Child? Where did
that come from? It just it was dark and it
was her mon hess and it just you know, the
magic theater and all this kind of stuff. And so
I started wearing all black as well, and I guess
we like invented goth okay, And so we had night Child.
And so in order to be night Child, she became

(03:08):
Virgil Night and I j and I became Desmond Child
and Desmond from oh blahdo bladah wow, because I was
trying to think of there aren't that many Desmond's. I
was wondering what the inspiration was my whole career. When
people met me, they couldn't understand that I was white.
They thought I was Jamaican. You know. It was like Desmond.

(03:30):
And I was like, what Desmond Decker. Okay, if we
look at your passport, does it say Desmond Child? Now? Yeah,
what does so you change your name legally? Yes? So
what's the middle name? I couldn't think of one, So
it's just a child, Okay. I first became aware of
you with reviews of Desmond Child and Rouge, and I
bought that album. Then you kind of faded from the

(03:53):
landscape in terms of what my visibility was. Suddenly your songwriter.
How does that happen? Well, when I was in Desmon
Child and Rouge, we played all the clubs in New
York City and we would plaster the streets with our posters.
I got arrested once for doing so, and we would
stencil the sidewalks around Black Rock with our names, you know,

(04:14):
black Rock CBS. Yeah, Desmon Child and Rouge at Tracks
because that was one of the favorite clubs. And so
we're playing at Tracks and Paul Stanley from Kiss came
to see us because he was intrigued, and, um, you know,
we made friends. He came backstage and he said, um,
you know, let's try writing a song. And it was like,
I actually actually didn't know that much about Kiss. I

(04:35):
thought that was just for little kids and stuff, and um,
you know, so we ended up getting together. We wrote
a song called I Was Made for Loving You. Well,
certainly that's a big breakthrough here from it. It's kind
of a disco hit. Oh okay, But did they intentionally
want to change their sound to that sound. No, no,

(04:56):
I that's what Desmond Child and Rouge was doing. And
I had got gotten one of the first drum machines,
so I was writing two beats, this is you know
eight machine something like that. You know, it had a
cheesy little sound, you know, but now of course the
hip hop world is using those sounds. You know, you
hear them. Crazy thing is at the rolling was like

(05:21):
the definitive thing we thought that passed in the facts
on every record. Now just blows my mind, you know.
So um, well that's a little bit slower, a little
bit slower. So all Stanley just sees your flyer and
comes comes. There's no connection, No one's reaching out to him.
And was the flyer what was intriguing about the floor

(05:42):
because he thought I looked kind of well, I had
this kind of one of the first mullets, and uh,
these gorgeous girls with you know, looking very hot around
So it was kind of like that. People didn't know
what to make of us. Actually, looking back on it,
we was more like the Scissor Sisters. We're kind of
hip and playing Reno Sweeney and rubbing shoulders with Andy

(06:04):
Warhol and Hollywood Lawn, and you know that was an
incredible time. We opened for Patti Smith at the Lower
Manhattan Notion Club, So we were inventing. Okay, so you
were part of the seed that he was checking out
the sea. Yeah, so we were mixing rock guitars with
dance beats. We didn't think of it as disco. I
mean when I bought the record, because the record refuted

(06:25):
the rock press about the record. The record very surprising.
So it was a little bit all over the place.
And within six months we released a second album called
Runners in the Night, and that was way more rock.
And it was also the moment because I started desmon
Chan the Rouge with Maria Vidal and we were the
founders and then we added our best friends Diana Grisselli

(06:47):
and Merriam Valley, and then um it was I was
Marie and I had been together now like three or
four years, and I realized I was way more gay
than I was by and then right between the two albums,
I met somebody that turned my life upside down, and um,

(07:08):
I just realized I couldn't I couldn't stay. And so
that's what Runners in the Night is all about. And
the first song, you couldn't stay what with her? And
also that broke up the band. So that's why, you know,
we had so much potential. Where does she today? Oh,
she's amazing artists on her own, but we actually anyway,

(07:29):
she's she's married to Rick Knowles and who's going to
be that's hysterical and she has her own studio and
she h to ask him the story. He's being inducted
into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame this year. Okay, but
let's go back to Paul Stanley. He meets you backstage

(07:49):
and the first night he beat back. I want to
write a song with you pretty much. He said, hey,
you guys, you know you're pretty good. We should try
writting a song together. I I think that maybe his
intention was maybe hooking up with, you know, one of
the girls, right, so you know, it's like we're letting
the fox into the henhouse, you know. And but I

(08:12):
think he I want his respect, and so we we
we wrote I Was Made for Loving. Okay, wait, wait, first,
what he said we're gonna write this? Did he include
the whole band Orges? No? Just me? Because I was
solely writing, I realized, But I wondered since he wanted
to pull one of the girls kind of like, you know, okay,
hang with you, hang with Okay, So where did you write?

(08:33):
I was made? I went to U. S. I. R.
And Kiss was rehearsing for the instrument. Yeah, and it
was the big a room with the stage and all that,
and off to the side there was a grand piano
with a cover on it and everything, and they all
took a lunch break and during that break we sat
together at that big piano and I started playing the

(08:53):
chords which you made up on the spotter you had previously. No,
I made it up on the spot you know, and
this kind of like um emo kind of tonight, I'm
gonna give it all to you, you know. It was.
It was kind of like um bravado. And so when
they went into the studio then with Vinny Poncia a

(09:15):
little bit slower, so you're there, they're on lunch breaks.
The song finished during lunch. No, it wasn't completely finished,
but you know, Paul went and ran with it with
Nny Pontia, the producer. Okay, at this point you're out
of the loop. I'm out. But so it was really
your input was all on that one. Day during rehearsal. Yes,

(09:35):
and also this idea of like four on the floor,
you know, you know, it was kind of like exciting.
And then also at that time, big big raves were
starting to happen, and it was like the idea of
bringing rock to a dance. It was just eighty two,
what no, this is seventy eight, sev seventy eight. We

(09:59):
wrote I think in seven on the seven and then
I think it was released in seventy something like that.
And so you know, the thing was is that I
was I've always been intrigued and and you know with
the idea of merging styles, you know, like trying to
grab a little piece of this Pastiche and Desmond Charlon
Rouge was that we were you know, we had R

(10:20):
and B elements, we had Latin elements, we had congas,
we had heavy power chords. We told stories like Laura
Nero and Joni Mitchell and Nelton John. So it was
like it wasn't like all sex and romance. There was
always a character and there was always this and that,
and all of that kind of came together really, uh

(10:41):
with when I worked with bon Jovi. Okay, well, well
a little bit flower Okay, so you're right. I was
made with loving for loving you, uh, with Paul stan Right.
How long after you sit there in s I R
do you become aware they're cutting it? Oh? They cut
it and put it out? What like? Were you part

(11:01):
of the loop or did you just hear it when
it came out? Yeah? I heard it when it came out. Okay.
So in between writing it h and then hearing when
it come out, it was months, it was Did you
have any contact with the band that really? No? I
thought all was good, and then all of a sudden,
you know, I started hearing that my song got cut.
You know, I think from Rick Albertie or Bill a

(11:23):
Coin or or somebody to my manager. At that time
it was Roy Rickson and Matthew Mark and they had
Star Flight Management. Okay, so you hear the song is
gonna be cut. When do you finally hear the wreck?
I think that they sent me a copy of it. Okay,

(11:45):
did you hear it? Did it sound like what you
thought the song was? That you but but better? Like
it was grand? It was bigger than I could have
ever Did you immediately hear it? I'm sure you're excited.
Did you say this is a hit. It was already
a hit. It when they finally sent me the copy,
it was a hit already all over the world. Okay, okay,

(12:07):
when did you first hear it? That's what I'm saying.
When they when somebody you don't even know? It was
nothing nothing. I was like, you know, kind of in
the dark, and they were too busy to think about me. Wow.
So uh and you still own all your songs? Well
not no, not not not like own own. Uh. There

(12:31):
was a catalog sale that I did in and um
that was with PolyGram uh Publishing, and David Simone was
the head of that and my manager at Winston Simone
you know are not brothers, which is on and they're

(12:52):
called the Simoni brothers whatever. Uh. So we did, we
did that deal. And at that time, this was after
the earthquake, we were living my husband and I were
living in Santa Monica, and it really shook, it really shook.
And I just said, and I had another friend who said, listen,

(13:16):
Miami Beach is where it's happening. You can get a
house on the water for almost nothing, just like you know,
and we I just said, let's let's do it. So
we sold and we moved to UM to Miami Beach,
and I was able to make my mother's dream come true.
I bought her her own little mini mansion on Miami Beach.

(13:37):
That's all she ever wanted. And pretty soon I owned
four houses on the on the block. Okay, but connect
me with PolyGram and selling. So then it was getting
really hard to find work. And at that point, all
of the bands that I had been working with UM
had started making compilation albums like best of and you know,

(14:01):
they're already like three per act that we're already being reshuffled.
And Winston said, you know, maybe this is the time
to sell. So, you know, it was I was really
kind of going broke, and UM, I just said okay.
And my father, who was Hungarian and lived through the
Depression and in World War two and all that, he

(14:24):
was like, grab the money, grab the money, grab the money,
you know. So so I did, and you know, I
think that's why we've I've been able to keep a
pretty high standard of living and also sacrifice a lot
experimenting with things that maybe I wouldn't have if I

(14:45):
was like hoping to get the next hit. Okay, just
a couple of questions you sold a you sold what
did you actually sold the writers and publishers share of
that catalog and retained the performance income from ask Catalcy
for myself. So my catalog at Aska and so then

(15:10):
I started a new catalog before you do that? Okay,
what did you do with the money? Well, had people
to pay off, right, But a lot of time people
get that check and they blow it completely and they're
broke again. No, I've you know, I had to pay
you know, Tim Collins had always told me that he
man Smarrowsmith. He always insisted that everybody pay off their houses,

(15:33):
no matter what, even if they had to, you know,
eat nothing. And so that's what I did. I paid
off all my debts and created a studio, built a
studio called the Gentleman's Club and started making records there. Okay,
so you sold, you paid off. How much time did

(15:55):
you buy with the money you saved? Well? What day
is it today? Today is Wednesday? Okay, so that money
still you still have the rabbits. Very good, I applaud
because we're in an era where mercuriois is buying everybody's

(16:16):
catalog and he's paying an incredible wount. But I just
worry about the acts who sell who might end up broke.
Obviously not you. But let's go back because of my father,
because you know that Eastern European like don't spend a penny. Okay,
so most people not that savvy, certainly not musicians. You
have that hit in seventy eight, Okay, from the outside,

(16:41):
it looks like you don't have another monster hit until
you work with bon Jovi. No, I mean I had
another hit with Kiss called Heavens on Fire with when
they took their makeup off right, And so it was
that song that bon Jovi was opening for Kiss in Europe,
and they loved that song. In fact, they had written
us called In and Out of Love that was very

(17:01):
similar sounding In and Out of Love, I feel my
heat taking It was in the in the and and
it was in the style of it. And um so
Paul had said, hey, you know, because he's very kind
of paternal and very generous with everyone, he's like wonderful,
and he said, John, maybe you should try riding with Desmond.

(17:25):
So I got a call from John bon Jovi and
I went out to this little wooden house the in
the end of a cul de sac at the edge
of like this gray brown marsh. In the very distance
there was an oil refinery. I mean, this is like
where they buried people in the Sopranos. And this is
New Jersey, New Jersey. Yeah. And so I walk in

(17:46):
and I'd make a left, and then on the left
I could see Richie's bedroom. Yeah, he still lived home
with his parents. And there was the far faucet poster
in the in the red right right, the bathing suit
kiss poster led Zeppelin. I mean, I just had a
quick look, and I walked into the kitchen and there's

(18:09):
this you know, vision of look like from the Court
of Louis, the FOURT with this big you know mullet
and um and John was on one of the you
know kitchen wall phones, Avocado green on its phone, undoubtedly
with Doc McGee, and he kind of like nut looked
at me sideways and kind of like nodded. And then

(18:31):
Richie said, well, come this way, and I had to
go downstairs into the basement, which was the laundry room. Okay,
this is his parents house, Richie's parents, Yeah, and so
and uh so I went down to the laundry room
and it's kind of damn and it was you know, musty,
and there was like the washing machine, and then there
was like like I discarded for Mike, a table where

(18:53):
they had put a little keyboard, and then there was
two little buzzing amps and some chairs and that was
their writing room. So I went down there. I was
waiting for a which to be sure, because you had
a relationship with Kiss. They were opening for Kiss. Had
you ever met them previously? This is the first time,
And so I had thought of a title because you know,

(19:15):
during that time I was working with Bob Crewe. Well,
when do you talk my audience a little bit of
his history legendary. Well, Bob Crew was the producer and
co writer of all the four Seasons hits with Bob
Gaudio and he's a character in the stage musical and
movie Jersey Boys. And so he had moved to California,

(19:38):
from California to back to New York. And he was fabulous.
I mean, he was so stylish and he's so handsome.
He looked like a Viking model with this red hair
and you know, tall, amazing, big laugh, and uh, somebody
said you should work with Desmond. So he we decided
he would be my producer. So I spent two years

(20:01):
writing with him. Um for me for my project, and um,
it was a very it was I went to songwriting college,
That's what I did. And it was very structured. It
was brill building style because that's where he came from.
And so he had an apartment that was just a studio,

(20:22):
didn't have a bedroom, had a little kitchen and just
one room and this studio days. Yeah, but that was
just for his songwriting. He had a beautiful apartment on
the East side. You know, there was nothing on the walls.
He couldn't. He was anal about that, you know, uh
like white berber carpet, cream colored walls, black piano that

(20:42):
all his hits were written on. There was a black
hard bench that went with it, and an armchair, a
stool that had you know arms that swiveled, very comfortable
for him. And then there was a pile of of
um yellow pads. And then he would spend time sharpening
pencils and so you'd get the pencil and a pad

(21:07):
and you know, blank pad and he would not allow
song to be started until there was a killer title
and there were lyrics and there were things to write about,
things to say. It wasn't the way I wrote before,
which was like playing chords and mumbling and hoping that
those mumbles would sound like something, you know, and then
you kind of, oh, you know, build a whole world

(21:30):
around that one little mumble. I mean, when I learned
how to write the other way, that's when I started
having hits, because you know, I would walk in with
a title, and he also taught me things like the
tension of the opposites. Um, you know, so even within
each line there was you know, tension of opposites. And

(21:55):
his rhyming had to be tight, like Broadway tight. None
of this of than love, you know, enough doesn't rhyme
with love, you know, it was he was like strict
so and every line had to flow into the next.
There couldn't be these disconnected thoughts. And like, for instance,

(22:15):
sometimes I hear songs that it's like you this or that,
and then the guy gets to the course and he
starts singing. She was like, what, So Bob cleared all
those cobwebs out of my mind, and so I knew
to walk in with the title. Okay, just a little
bit slower, you have this ship. The bon Jovi hits

(22:38):
aren't until really, what are you living? On the royalties
from I was made for Loving You. Okay, that's covering you. Yeah,
you're working with Bob Crew. Did you have a specific
time you started. Yes, Well, we would meet at I
think it was called Boni on Street off of Broadway,
across the street from the mod this modern building where

(22:59):
he had his studio, and it was lunch special. I
think it was like four nine six. And it always
had to be Dutch because he was like in the
program and he used to fly planes to Paris to
have croissants with his friends. Wait wait wait wait wait
wait wait wait, had to be the program. I think
of alcoholics anonymous. He's not the program, but in his
own thing, he was like so overly generous that he

(23:21):
blew like so much money on lavish parties and all that.
So for his program he had to um like, everything
had to be Dutch. So I paid my my, you know,
my five bucks, and he pays five bucks and we
eat the lunch special. So flying to Paris for croissant
was before you got in the picture. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(23:43):
with you know, movie stars and you know. Did he
retain the ownership of his songs. I think he did, right,
I think he did okay, Yeah, okay, okay, So you
went for went for lunch, you paid your five bucks.
Then at one o'clock we'd have to be I'd have
to be sitting on that bench ready to go, and
then we'd start. And just so I know, it was
a piano bench. Yeah, hard, So both of you were

(24:07):
sitting in front of the piano. No, he was on, yes,
and he was on the stool higher up, high up.
And then at six o'clock sharp, session would end and
he'd leave to go to his meeting. And five days
a week, almost two years, we wrote thirty eight songs together. Okay,

(24:27):
So when you sat down at one o'clock, did one
of the two of you already have a title in mind?
We'd be talking and a lot of it was he
was telling stories from the wild sixties and when he
met Maria Kllis on the beach in Centrope, and that
night they threw a little soiree and they both sang

(24:48):
together and like, oh, these amazing stories and the crazy,
crazy Hollywood orgies and just everything. And so then some
thing and something he would say would spark a title.
Is that, Oh that sounds like a good title, And
so we'd write down a bunch of titles and then

(25:09):
we pick the strongest one and start and then usually
we couldn't get through that song that day, so the
next day we'd pick up and finish that song, and
so then the next time it was like that, Okay,
once you have the title, how did you write the song? Um? Well,
he explained that lyrics have melody in our language, like

(25:32):
I just went data, see what I'm saying. So then
how fast you say it? You sing it? And the
um scoring because he compared lyrics to the script. The
music is a score. You make the movie first and

(25:55):
then you score it. Because if a scene is supposed
to be spooky, then you put in the dark courts.
If it's supposed to be happy, then you make it
sound happy. So that was how he related it to me.
So in a lot of my productions, I try to
make the production cinematic, trying to bring out the meaning

(26:17):
perfect example, like limon labla loca. When you get to
the second verse, you hear a gong and he goes
woke up in New York City in a fun kitchy hotel,
and I that imagine that you know, whore house in
Chinatown everything's red beaded curtains, incense, you know, And so
the gong spoke of that like it just evoked that

(26:42):
whole kind of bohemian you know moment you know of
him just crazy. You know, she took my heart and
she took my money. She must have slipped me a
sleeping pill, because remember all those urban legends of waking
up without kidneys and so so okay, so I don't

(27:03):
And then you would write the lyrics. Yeah, we'd write that.
We write the lyrics for the chorus, and then once
we got that, then it would speak to us like, uh,
what how the verses should be, whether they should be
like halftime or whether they should be in the same
brick brisk manner or depending on what we were we

(27:25):
were writing. And so that discipline taught me everything. And
that's the discipline I walk into a but but it
just keeps staying on that. You write the chorus, you
write the first at the time, are you thinking of
the bridge? Are you thinking? Because everything depends on whether
you've made that that hook payoff and everything that that supported,

(27:50):
all the little you know, braces that that hold up
that title and pay off the title. So so you know,
so times to make it really pay off, sometimes you
have to start really on the down low, with slow phrases,
lots of time between the things you're saying, and then
usually have a channel B section that kind of starts

(28:14):
to wind up the tension, wind up the tension, so
by the time you hit the chorus, you're ready for it.
You're ready for the rain to to fall, You're ready
for the sun to come up. You're ready, you know,
for for whatever is being promised. And so with that
in mind, you know, that's why I started having hits

(28:35):
like okay, wait, just so I know, because thinking of
all those Beatles hits, a lot of them had bridges.
Assuming you do have a bridge as a songwriter, does
that come later or is that something when do you say, oh,
I want to change it up? I think after the
second chorus. Then you have to have something to stay
in the song that's worth staying in the song for
that you haven't heard before. I saw a lot of

(28:58):
contemporary music that's just written on the same loop with
the same chords. It's just cut and paste, and then
it's like nothing changes harmonically, and and and the trick
is to make it every time you hear those same
chords go by having it sound different somehow with texture,
with you know how fast you're saying things I mean
and I I'm writing songs like that also these days.

(29:22):
But back then it was like now we had to
clean the palette, the bridge, had to take us to
a new place, had to modulate, had to go, had
to maybe we want the last course to be modulated.
So that's where we start modulating. So when you get it,
it doesn't feel like the the you like this kind
of forced modulation. Okay, you wrote thirty eight songs together.

(29:44):
Was he working with anybody else or just you just me?
What happened to those thirty eight songs? I have them?
And did any of them end up becoming hits? Why
do you think that is? We wrote two songs and
then he got me a deal at Epic Records, um,
and you know, they didn't take me seriously or anything

(30:06):
like that, and they just kind of they went by
the wayside. And they weren't kind of progressive like the
stuff I was doing with Desmond Child and Rouge. They
were more like trying to be like what George Michael
later became, like Blue Eyed Soul, and so you know,
I didn't really know who I wasn't. Also, I was really,

(30:28):
you know, struggling with you know the fact that well,
how am I going to be an out artist? No
women would follow me? Who the other ones that would
buy records of a balladeer or kind of romantic figure?
And I remember by then I was already twenty six,
so I just didn't I didn't know who I was,

(30:52):
and I was very lost. And then remember all my
friends were dying of AIDS and I was terrified, you know,
that I would be next. So had you been promiscuous?
Not really, but you know, not even people that just
had boyfriends or you know, they would get infected. No,
I know, we all know a lot of people. The

(31:13):
husband you have, now, how long have you been together
with him? Thirty two years? Okay, let's park that for
a second. You work for Bob Crew for two weeks
for two years? How does it end with Bob Crew? Well,
when my singles didn't take off, I think it was
disappointing for him, you know, and disappointing for me. And
I was also I mean, I remember, um, we're writing

(31:35):
a song, and remember he wrote Lady Marmalade, so he
was lucky with the word lady, and so we're writing
something that had you know, baby maybe, and then he said,
we'll sing lady. I said I can't. I can't sing lady.
I mean, even if I'm not out, I'm just not

(31:56):
not gonna sing lady. Ironically, I later wrote a song
with ar Smith called Dude looks like a little right right, Okay, okay, whatever,
and and I just burst out crying no because he
was like bearing down on me. He says, you know,
I don't know how I wrote all those hits without you,

(32:16):
you know, and all this stuff. And I just like,
like like droplets of tears were It's like that movie
about the Little drummer, remember Whiplash, you know, right right right?
I mean he was he was he was wonderful. He
was never mean like that, but he was strong. And
he said, you know this is bullshit. You know, you know,

(32:37):
sing lady. And I said I just cannot sing lady.
And so um he when I started like crying, and
all the frustration and maybe all the sadness of all
my friends had died or everything, I just broke down
and he came around. He gave me a hug and everything,
and he was really like the you know, a father
to me and um, and I think it was you know,

(33:00):
I really felt like we had done our time. You know.
It wasn't like I was being you know, disloyal, but
it was like I couldn't go forward with him because
I had all these other influences and feelings. And remember
that punk music was in the air in New York
and the Cure and all of that and all of

(33:23):
those things were in my brain too that did not
fit into his world. And so you know then you know,
were part of ways. But I remember when I was
producing Ricky Martin and I was doing strings in l
A and he came to the session and he sat
next to me, and uh, he was just like glowing,
you know, just like so proud of me. You were

(33:43):
protget Okay, when you were writing with him, did you
both write lyrics and music? Yes, well I was playing
the chords and kind of driving more than male lities,
and he was more strong leaning on the lyrics. But
I also was was it's hard keeping up with him,

(34:07):
you know, just like now these days when I write
with people, it's like it's hard for them to keep
up with me because I already I wrote it. Oh,
oh that's cool. That sounds really good. Okay, we'll sing that.
You know, if you can, you do it. And also,
you know you're inspired, so you don't want to hold
yourself back to listen to somebody's kind of Oh yeah,

(34:27):
well you have a nicer personality than me. I I
can't handle that well. And you know, maybe why I
work alone. So after Bob Crew, before bon Jovi, what's happening? Well,
I mean I wrote a revolutionary song actually, which was
a call I got from Jim Steinman and he was

(34:50):
producing Bonnie Tyler after he had already had Total Eclipse
of the Heart and then he time, of course legendary
working bad out of hell. Yes, and so he had
written um um, total Eclipse of the Heart for Bonnie Tyler,
and so he said, I want you to write me
a song. Okay, did you know Jim Steinman. No, but

(35:13):
Mike Winston did, and so it's Winston still your manager,
and so you know he um. He said, Okay, this
is what I want. I want the verses to sound
like Tina Turner. I want the B section to sound
like the Police, Yeah, and then I want the chorus
to sound like Bruce Springsteen. So I wrote this song

(35:37):
called if You're a Woman and I was a man,
and it started out with the chorus all a capella,
you know, and um, it went, if you were a
woman and I was a man, would it be so hot?
To understand? That? A hot? It's a hot and you
do what you can? If you were a woman and

(36:00):
I was a man, do do do do do do
do right? And I was playing, uh, you know, I
I love that these dreams and Billy Jean at that time,
so I was came up with a variation, you know,
and the song completely went, you know, from style to
from the style, and so she she had it as

(36:24):
a hit only in one country, France. Okay, just so
I know the uh you wrote it? He didn't get
any co writing credit, He said, you wrote it. So
I solely wrote the song. So it was a hit
in France. And so when I went to write with
bon Jovi, you know, I was piste off because I

(36:44):
knew that I had a hit chorus. And so when
I had the title, I came in with the title
you give love a bad name? Where'd you get that from? Wait?
Just one second, When you wrote the hit for Bonnie Tyler,
how long did it take you to write it? Well,
it took me a long time because I was trying
to engineer and record everything myself. Okay, let let me

(37:05):
ask you a different questions. Are you the type of
person uh where it happens very fast or you get
the idea and then it's developed faster or slow? How
do you do it? Or you do it differently every time?
Usually these days it usually takes me two days to
write a song, co write a song with folks that
are on my level of writing, okay, And by that time,

(37:27):
if someone could take the demo right into the studio
and just cut it just okay. So you walk into
the house, Jon bon Jovi's on the phone, Richie takes
you back downstairs, and you have you gave love a
bad name from where I just came up with it
because Bob had told me, had taught me how to
write songs where the title had irony right, you know?

(37:50):
And so I mean, were you just that the title
comes to you in a shower or were you working
hard to come up with something. I was preparing for
my session and then I thought, well, you give love
a bad name. Love bad opposites and already the tension
of the opposite. You're curious, what is what's you know?

(38:14):
Heavens on fire? Um, I was made for loving you.
That's not so much. But uh, I hate myself for
loving you. How can we be lovers if we can't
be friends? You know? It goes on and on. Uh.
And I've been really successful with with that technique. Okay,

(38:36):
So now you're in the basement with Richie. What happens?
So Richie brings me a glass of water, then he
brings me a cup of coffee, and John still on
the phone. So finally he comes down and um, you know,
you know that you were talking and this and that,
and I pull out the title you give Love a
Bad Name. And that was my first glimpse of the
billion dollar smile. It was like it was dark down there,

(38:59):
but when that's mile head, it was like the room
lit up. It was like, oh my god, he's a star,
look at him. And so he had a song called
We're talking about Richie Now John, Wait, wait, wait, just
to be yea yeah, and we taught chichat. Then John
finally comes down and he says, he was like, okay,

(39:20):
what do you gott I got this title, and he
his face just lit up, and so I was like,
and you know, so he had a song on a
previous album called Shot through the Heart, and he's not
wanting to let a good hook go to waste either,

(39:41):
so he threw down shot through the Heart and you
to blame. And then the three of us said, you
give love a bad name. And that was our first
three fists in the air, you know, like high five moment.
And uh. Then I started. I started contributing my hook
from if You a Woman and I was a man

(40:01):
because I just felt like, you know, I had that
you know, kind of Jersey feeling right like because of
the night. I gotta tell you funny story about Springstey night.
I met him only one time and I said, hey,
thanks for all those hits I wrote, and he just
fell on the floor laughing because that, you know, that

(40:23):
upward thing, like because the night and everything and so
um so uh and so I I started playing again
that do do do Do Do Do Do Do Do
Do Do Do Do Do Do on the piano, and
I and Richie's was like, no, hey man, no, that's
that's like that's like Billy Jean that's like Michael Jackson stuff,

(40:44):
I said, played on guitar, but like do it like chugs,
like tight chugs. And then he went to John's second time,
face lit up and the song just like flowed right out,
right out, and then all of those lyrics that could
not have been you know, I could not have been

(41:04):
in that session without Bob Crewe on my shoulder, you know,
you know, blood red nails on her fingertips, you know,
all those descriptions that he was so good at, you know,
creole lady marmalade, you know all of that. You know
that's all built in, you know, to the that song

(41:25):
and many others. Okay, so you'll write that song. Is
it all written that day? Yeah? Okay? Was that the
only song that day? Or yes, that was the only thing? Okay.
So then they were so happy that then they called
for another session. This time we did in New York City,
and I borrowed an apartment that belonged to a friend
of mine, Duck Schneider, And it was on twenty third

(41:48):
Street or two street off Eighth Avenue, and it was
just like this walk up and this and that, and
there was this big old you know, broken down upright
piano and where we wrote living on a Prayer? Okay,
who wrote Johnny were used to working on the docks? Well,
well that's the whole thing everybody brought there, stick to

(42:14):
to the session. But because of the time that I
lived with Maria on the Upper East Side where it
was one of the most beautiful times, and she worked
as a waitress at a place called Once upon a Stove,
and she was a singing waitress. So all the singing
waiters and waitresses had like fake names. So hers was
Gina Velvet. So then everybody, we all just started calling

(42:36):
her Gina, you know, because she reminded us of Gina
Lila Bridgeta. And so I can I said, you know, um,
the story of Johnny and Gina and Johnny because that's
my original name. So I was sneaking myself into the song,
and john said, I can't sing Johnny. People think I'm
singing about myself. My name's Johnny. Was like Tommy. It

(43:00):
was a song alike, and that's how Tommy and Gina
was born. Okay, And then on that album, didn't you
co write one more song? Three more? Okay? Well, it
was like you give love a bad name? Living on
a Prayer and then um, there were two others. Right, Okay,
how long after you write those songs do they cut
them in Vancouver? Months? Like next month. I mean they

(43:24):
were like hustling. They had fifty songs and uh. One
of the great things that they did, they like invented
poloing or something. They would get all their friends, brothers
and sisters from their high schools to all go into
this little theater and then they play one song after
the other and the kids would kind of like with

(43:46):
their applause, they would judge which ones they liked better.
They would play them live or player recording recording played
the demos and they were like, okay, what do you
think of that one? You know, it's like but when
one was special, then they'd go crazy. They cut that one.
So because John was serious about it's like, kids have
to pick this record, kids have to want this record.

(44:08):
It has to be what they want. And he was
a kid himself, he's two and so these kids were
almost his age. So it was like, uh, really, And
I went to one of those sessions and it was great.
But they they wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote
and wrote to get those songs. I mean, I think
one of the songs that we wrote for that UM

(44:30):
for Slippery was a song called We All Sleep Alone.
But John felt it was too um passive or feminine almost,
and it's you know, we All Sleep Alone. It's like
it had more gravitas when Share sang it because of
her history and all that. And Um I was asked

(44:52):
by John Kloner to produce Share because of my success,
and so UM I had them co produced We All
Sleep Alone and another song that was my from my childhood,
Bang Bang, and I had gone down to Palm Springs
to have Sunny bano I'll write an extra verse because

(45:13):
that song originally was two minutes long. So he was
so gracious and he you know, I went down there
and I didn't contribute anything. I just like he did it.
And then I went back and I cut it and
we decided, you know, I wanted to do something. So
it was heavy metal with that song. So and UM

(45:34):
that was you know, you know that's when Richie mit
Share and you know that became tabloid heaven and UM.
So you know, that was like a wonderful time because
you know, we had written these extra songs and so
you know, I think we we had another song um

(45:56):
that was cut by a Canadian band that they and cut.
How did you feel about them leaving some of your
songs off the record? I was happy they had one. Okay,
So they go to Vancouver, they cut the record. Do
you go to Vancouver? Went to Vancouver to do the
last minute tweaking of the lyrics? Okay? And how long

(46:17):
were you in Vancouver for maybe like four or five days? Briefly?
How much did Bruce Fairburn contribute? I was never in
the room when he was producing, so this I had
to like wait till the end of the night, and
then they'd show up back at the apartments that they had,
and then after that we'd go to some strip joint. Right.

(46:38):
So was it as wild as they said it was?
It was wild, but it was normal. Why right? Okay?
You know, So were you happy with Fairburn's production? I
couldn't imagine them better, and they brought them to life
like beyond my wildest dreams. And then later, of course,
when I was writing with Arrowsmith, same thing. He brought

(46:59):
the those songs like to a whole other level. I mean,
that's one of the biggest tragedies in music that we
lost him, And you know, it's not that often that
I'm you know, listening to a song that I wrote
that didn't turn out well. You know, I'm usually producing

(47:21):
these days of songs that I write. But you know,
he like topped it, and that showed in a way
that it's like sometimes having an objective person come in
can really, you know, be so much better. And a
good example is I wrote a song with Antonina Our

(47:42):
Motto and Tim James Rock Mafia called Beautiful Now, and
they took it to Z and I mean it was
the same song and everything, but what Z did to it,
he brought it to a whole other level. And I
couldn't have been more pleased. So when you work with
people that have taste and know what they're doing, they're

(48:04):
not going to create something that's bad. Okay, so the
record is done. Do you have any idea it's gonna
be the monster that it is? Slippery went went No.
I just thought there was just like another band from
New Jersey. I knew we had some good songs, and
I didn't. I had no idea. But you know, it's
like one of those things Bob Crewe would always talk

(48:26):
about what is a star and you look up in
the sky and you see this extra bright star and
then later you find out, well, no, those were ten
stars all lined up. So he said, okay, first you
have the masthead, which is the actual person, then the song,
then the management or the production than the management, the

(48:47):
pr guy, the record company, how much money they put
into it, dada. And when they all line up, you know,
and someone's in their moment, fantastic things can happen, and
that's really rare, and and you know, I've been part

(49:07):
of some of those moments, and so I think the
key to begin with is that the song has to
really fit the arc type of the person singing it
in a very deep way. And I learned that from
my acting coach, Sondra Secat, because when she would be
analyzing scripts and characters and trying to merge an actor

(49:30):
into a part, like trying to really establish, well, what
is the arch type of the actor just as a person,
what's the art type of the character. The closer you
can get some somebody to be the same thing, the
stronger the performance is going to be. Because we're hardwired.
Just like thinking there's a snake in the corner, we're
hardwired wired to recognize universal archetypes from history. So you know,

(49:56):
so I always explained this. So you have an arch
type John bon Jovi, he's like the warrior, you know,
He's he's like the guy next door. He's all sunshine
and like go and fight for the cause. And then
you have the devil and that's Alice Cooper, the dark

(50:21):
you know, and so all those you know, archetypes are
within everybody, and we love to see them outside of ourselves.
Like just like in tribes, they wore masks and they
played characters because it's fulfilled something inside us. That's what
I believe. So when I work with the people that
are trying to find themselves, I try to like, let's

(50:43):
get down to, like what's your arc type? Who are you?
You know, there was always Venus, and then there was
Gene Harlow, and then there was Marilyn Monroe. Then there
was Gwen Stefani. Right, who's Medusa, you know, Joan Crawford, Madonna,

(51:04):
Lady Gaga, she actually wears snakes on you know. So
when somebody's like close and there's it's so fulfilling, like
silence of the lamps, like the serial killer, we just
can't wait to see him back on the screen. So
I always bear that in mind. And usually when you
when you have an instinct like that, all of a sudden,

(51:25):
the person starts to find themselves because what happens is
they get signed because maybe this kid looks like Justin Bieber,
and then the competing label thinks, well, he's got the
Justin Bieber hair do and maybe the same kids will
like him too. So much happens like that, and they think,
well sometimes and it can work sometimes. You know, you

(51:46):
have the Beatles and you have the Monkeys, right and
so um, that's not being an artist. And I always
try to tell the people I work with it's like,
don't you want occur real? Like Shade, there's no one
like that. She can make a record every eight years
and it's a hit. She doesn't care because she's living

(52:07):
her life, and then she writes about it and in time,
those little strands become what she offers. I mean, you
want people to come to a market that's only you.
That's the best kind of career to have, and then
it's forever and then you're not you know, you're not
chasing empty dreams. And you know that's the thing that's

(52:33):
not taught. I mean, for the last thirty years we've
had the arts pulled from the schools. Where does somebody
even see a picture of a Michelangelo or anything in
public schools out there? How do they start to build
the feeling of like, oh, that's my place in this world.

(52:54):
I'm an artist, I'm here too, you know, reflect my
times and also something deeper, innate that I have to
do for my own evolution as a person. Those thoughts
don't come into things. It's like, Okay, I love that
beat from that song. Pull up that beat, Come on,

(53:16):
come on, pull up the beat. Let's just put the
chords from this other song. And but what are they
talking about there? Okay, let's flip it and make it
something like that. And okay, yeah, you might get the
song cut. But does it change the course of pop music?
Does it matter? Does it does it heal the world?

(53:41):
Or do something you know that's necessary for the evolution
of humanity or or a plan. I mean, those sounds
like really grand things. Let's happen. Forget about humanity, the
evolution of that person. He chooses that career so he
can bring something out that he desperately has to say
they're so rare people that are authentic. I could go

(54:04):
on and on about this, and you articulated brilliantly, and
you give me insight. Let me go to a nitty
gritty that really does not square with that, but it's reality. Okay,
you've had a lot of success on every level. If
you're following your dream, frequently in the arts, you're starving.
Many people are unwilling to starve and so therefore they

(54:26):
never developed their artistry. What is the key to perseverance? Well,
I know because like we were so poor, and my
mother was kind of like Blanche Dubois Cuban, you know,
like poet, but she was also had a hustle that

(54:47):
was like Angelica Houston and the Grifters. She dressed me
up in a little suit and we she she had
one dress, and we go to a cocktail party and
we would troll that cocktail party for a millionaire. Uh
that would you know see a built in family ready
to make him look good. Because my mother was very beautiful.

(55:08):
She wasn't successful at it. But the hustle Okay, now
you say this, you say that, so there's a hustle
when you when you're born poor, you know, but I
think there's something also that people know in certain genres.
Who's real, who's cool, what's what's what has it? And

(55:31):
it's you can't you can't fool people. I agree with everything. Well,
let's park that, but the hustle has to be there,
not only outwardly to connect the dots, absolutely inwardly. Inwardly
more important than the world comes to you if you're
beaming with something that needs to be out there. Okay,

(55:54):
that album comes out slippery. When webb, it's like an
instant success, it's mega, goes on for the better part
of two years. What do you think about? What about them? No?
You know you're gonna get a big pay day? B
is the phone start ringing off the hook? Well? I

(56:18):
tried to make the most of it because remember that
at that time and for decades before, I don't think ever,
there was an out producer, so there was a real
glass ceiling. So the bands would be okay being co
writer because it was inequality there. But when you're the producer,

(56:44):
you're the boss ultimately, and you have to get in
there and dick slap these people into shape. And that's
something that they just their homophobia or whatever couldn't permit
a gay man to be the off of them. So
for you know, I couldn't ever get one of those
bands to let me be the producer, even though I

(57:07):
heard albums they made with other producers like are you
kidding me? I could have made a masterpiece here? What
what is this? And so you know, they gave me
the kind of what I call the weirdos, the androgynous people,
soul l artists. Um, my first production was Ronnie Specter

(57:27):
and then you know Share and Alice Cooper, Joan Jet. Okay, no,
so okay, wait, wait who did you want to be?
Do you want to be a producer, a songwriter and
artist or where what's the hierarchy there? No? I wanted
to be a star myself. I wanted to be a superstar,
but I didn't have the confidence because of my own issues,

(57:50):
you know, and I was I was having so much
success that I didn't want to stop it. I said, well,
when I'm rich and then my mother's safe and we're
all good, then I'll try then then then my moment
will come. But so many things got in the way,
you know, and life got in the way, and I

(58:11):
was just like I didn't in the end, I didn't.
I'm very thin skinned. I didn't have the confidence, and um,
so I think that. And also I was so good
at looking outside of myself and pinpointing. Well, like I
could see somebody, I could see the stars around them,
and then I could see the dark cloud in front

(58:33):
of the stars. And I was good at like scraping
away stuff to get to how that person could shine.
I couldn't do it for myself. And so, you know,
I made an album that I'm not that happy about
in nine called Discipline, and I was just so desperate
to be a star that and I didn't have a

(58:54):
producer and I didn't have anybody to dick slap me into,
like what, And I wasn't out on that record. It
was like a lie in a way, you know, I was.
I think I'm a good singer, you know, I really,
I think I've finally actually gotten good. You know. It

(59:15):
took me a long time to really when singing connect
and not try to think, well is it as good
as this is that, because that's what goes through people's minds.
So now when I'm you know, on the other side
of the glass, you know, finally am my age I'm
able to, like, you know, sing with soul, you know,
but it took me a lot, very my whole life. Okay,

(59:38):
you write the bon Jovie songs? Do you start or
your managers start getting a lot of inquiries about people
and the right. Yeah, they wanted my songs, but didn't
want me to produce them. Okay, so what did you
do well? Like, for instance, um, Mike great friend now
Jason Flam he had a girl singer that he was

(59:58):
trying to promote, and he had heard my song, just
like Jesse James, and wanted to cut it. And I
had written it for Bonnie Tyler because I ended up
producing Bonnie Tyland. That's a whole wonderful story. Um, but
this was a song that Bonnie wouldn't sing because she
was embarrassed. Her mother would think it was too suggestive,
you know, walking into town slinging a gun, smalltown dude

(01:00:21):
with a big city attitude. Just that was enough to
say Bonnie didn't cut it. So he had heard it
and wanted it desperately. I said, but I have to
produce it, and no, no, no, you know, because we
remember Atlantic Records and all that it was, you know,
like that book right, you know, So I was you know,
it's still like pushed down and um. And so I

(01:00:44):
cut it with Share and we had a hit, you know,
and um. But I think that that's how it was.
It was like I have to produce it or you
don't get the song. So then okay, and then you know,
look at with Alice Cooper, you know, I I produced
that record Poison Poison, that we co wrote together, and

(01:01:05):
I brought all the successful people I was working with
at the time, Bon Joviero Smith, Jone jet Um, you know,
and then he had Kick Winger and Kane Roberts and
all these people. They all contributed to the record and
it was a wonderful theatrical piece and that song Poison.
Listening back to it now, it's like, how I'm good.

(01:01:29):
It was the first hitting Yeah, but just in terms
of rock, it was like really evil sounding and it
was just like exactly what his art type needed to be. Okay,
how'd you end up working with Aero Smith John Kalodner
who had hired Meat for Share? So just so I know,

(01:01:53):
do you had not made a record for Klanter before
you got the producing gig Share? Yeah, And he called
you do you were you like the first what did
he call and say? Were you like the first call?
Called Winston? So my manager, right new Field fielded everything
and um, and we had already you know, had success
with Share. But he started seeing the success of bon

(01:02:14):
Jovi and all that. So and we wait, wait wait,
I mean he had had success with Cheer you have
no no, no, no no. He hired me two work
with Share, right, and I started delivering. Okay, that's what
I wanted to know. Yeah, And so then I was
having the number one with bon Jovi. So he he

(01:02:36):
had made a record with them called Done with Mirrors,
which was a total stiff, total stuff. And they were,
you know, Tim Collins was really trying to get them all,
you know sober, and the wives sober, and the Roodie sober,
and everybody was in meetings all the time, and you
know it was like a cult. And so he made
them meet with me. So I flew to Boston. I

(01:03:01):
got brought to this big warehouse where they had the
stage set up, you know, the mic stand with all
the whatever multicolor scarps. But on the floor, you know,
on the floor level, there were there was an army
of guitars must have been a hundred guitars, all with
their own straps that matched the guitar, like Sparkles, Tiger, Leopard, uh,

(01:03:25):
you know, Fenders, get you know, Gibson's Unique Ones, Vintage ones,
I mean all like it must have been like six rows,
you know, with twenty guitars each. I mean, it was
like crazy. And then on the side of the stage,
I could see the sound man that did this, the

(01:03:46):
stage sound on the side, and Joe was over there
and they were running a loop. They were putting a
guitar loop backwards right, and Stephen was the one that
you know big you know warehouse doors. It opened up
and you can see the coming through and Stephen comes
in towards the door and he's you know, warm, and
you know he's a people pleaser and just you know,

(01:04:09):
it was nice. And so he brought me up. I
still hadn't said anything, and he said, well, you know,
what do you think about this? And so Joe played
the loop and it was Antona and Data and Data
an donna and remind me of boogie woogie or like
whatever from back in the day, right like it was
harmonica or something, and uh, Steven started singing it was

(01:04:33):
like Danna and Donna cruising for the lightest data and
Dada cruising for the latest. And then he stood back
and he says, what do you think of that? And
I said, I think that's really bad and it was
like that was my opening line, and Joe like crossed
his arms and he was like looking at me. I

(01:04:55):
mean he poses that way anyway, looking with his head back.
I squinty, looking sideways and um, you know. Uh. Stephen
was like trying to rescue the situation, and I said,
you know, Van Halen wouldn't put that on the B
side of their worst record, and they were like what.
I just needed to capture their attention and kind of

(01:05:17):
shocked them into taking me seriously or throw me out,
you know, the throwing out could have it could have
gone that way. And then Stephen, who's the people pleaser,
said well, very sheepishly. When I first started singing that hook,
I was singing, dude looks like a lady. I said, what,
dude looks like a lady? And I said that's a

(01:05:39):
hit title because it had the Bob Crue ring dude
looks like a lady. It had everything, you know, cruising
for the ladies. What sounds that strip top down in
a cadillact. We've seen that story, right, David Lee Roth,
the millions of those, you know, and um but and
Joe said, yeah, but we don't know what that means.

(01:06:02):
And I said, well, I'm gay, I know what that means.
And he goes and so so, you know, I said,
bear with me, come on, let's tell the story. So
we you know, I said, how did you come up
with that? And he said, well, we had you know,
gone after hours. You know, everybody's on, you know, in
the program. So we were having our sodas and stuff

(01:06:25):
at this bar and there was, you know, at the
end of the empty bar, just sitting on the end
was this vision of beauty, this giant blond, teased up
hair and white skin and black nails and you know,
curvy and all, you know, very sexy. And then uh

(01:06:46):
and so they were all like drawing straws, you know,
because they were all you know, married. But there was
a single Roadie or something. Okay, go over there and
say say hello. So at that moment she turns a
round and faces them, and it's Vince Neil of Motley Crewe.
And that's when they were like, oh, that dude looks

(01:07:08):
like a lady. That dude looks like a lady. Dude
looks like a lady. And that's where he came up
with it. So it's really funny because because because then
I said, okay, so let's write the story. So the
whole verses like, walked into a bar on the shore,
her picture grace, the grime on the door. Could not

(01:07:28):
have written that without Bob Crew, her picture, Grace, the grind,
all the alliteration, bar on the shore, picture Grace, the
grime on the door. And then Stephen threw and she
was a long lost love at first bite whatever and so,
which was a kind of confusing line because then it
sounded like he had been with her before, and so
I tried to stop it, but he loved the way

(01:07:50):
the line sounded. He wouldn't change it. And so, so
the fantastic thing about the song is that a normal
band would have just like said, well, and then you know,
I ran out of there, you know, because you know
that's just too weird. But in this song, no, this
the main character stays, you know, let me take a

(01:08:14):
peep peek dear, you know, I like it, like it
like it like that my funky lady, and so he
doesn't run away. So the second verse, never judge a
book by its cover or who are you gonna love
by your lover? And if that isn't like LGBT acceptance,

(01:08:35):
and it's like like, if it looks good, go for it, man.
You know, you know, it's like don't you know, don't
stop yourself from going with what you're feeling inside and
and accept everybody and all that kind of stuff. Because
later on the song became controversial because it was like
not politically correct us to say the word tranny or

(01:08:58):
you know all you know, all this kind of stuff.
But you know, I think if you look at that
second verse which they used and missus doubtfire and the
broom dance, it's like a song of acceptance. And it
was like everybody in the world got a smile when
they heard it, and so it brought them back. And

(01:09:18):
it's funny. Uh. A few years ago, when we were
doing some work at our house, like the workman came
came up to me and he said, you wrote with Aerosmith,
you wrote my favorite song, Do a Naked Lady. It's
like do a Naked that's what he here. That was

(01:09:39):
his story in his head, you know. So I just
got such a kick out of that. But when Stephen
went to write his his autobiography, he spent like two
our pages, two or three pages talking about the creation
of dude looks like a Lady. And he painted me
out to be like Juan Valdez. So well, he was Latino.
He had a handlebar mustache like I was wanting. You know,

(01:10:01):
it's like like a worker from the fields. That was
like whatever. First of all, I never had like a
mustache on its own, not even in the seventies when
it was cool, like you know. And then um, then
and then he said, well, you know I already had
the song written, doesn't mention cruising for the ladies? And

(01:10:22):
um um. You know, Desmond contribute a few little things
to the verses, but you know, and you know, it's like, well,
we just let him put his name on the song whatever.
And so then Joe co Co writes his book with
David Ritz and says, well, Desmond's the one who came
up with dude looks like a Lady. We could not

(01:10:43):
have written that song without that title. And it's like,
wait a second, So I've co written my book with
David Ritz and I set the record straight. But I
was working with Joe and he was recording a song
called Red, White and New in my studio Nashville, and
I sat him down and one of my writers had
written the song. Levi hummed, and so I sat him down. Okay,

(01:11:05):
this is how we wrote the song. And I told
him the story and he goes, oh, I like your
story better than mine, but you wrote a book about it.
So I'm gonna set there. Who are you gonna believe me?
Are these you know rehab rockers? Man? Okay? Did you
ever confront Tyler about it? That's who I'm talking about. Tyler. No, no, no, Tyler,

(01:11:30):
like you know, said I like your story better than mine.
But it's like and to Joe, it's like I didn't
come up with the title, Stephen did. It's like you
got it all wrong, you guys, you know, but you
know it all worked out and I'm going to set
the record straight in my book. Okay, So you're right there.
How long did it take you to write the record?

(01:11:50):
Write the song? We wrote it that day, wrote it
that day that day. What did Klodner say, because he
was totally hands on. Well, they had to make the
demo and whatnot, and I wasn't there when they did,
so it took a while for him to finally hear
the batch of songs. The next day, I walked in
and Joe didn't come in. You know, he was like,
I don't think he was comfortable, right, So, uh, no

(01:12:14):
one was there, not even the roadies. And I go
into that big thing and there was a little keyboard
like in front of the stage like butt it up
right to the to the wall of the state and
the stage was above us and it was like a
little Wilitzer and there was like a little bench and
then he sat next to me and I, you know,
I started in like I do kind of like tell
me about your life. What have you been going through?

(01:12:36):
Da da da da da, you know, trying to draw
something out, and he said, well, I met this woman Teresa,
and she really, you know, she saved me. I mean,
I don't know what I was, just Tyler. This is Tyler.
What I would be without her? You know, she's she's
she's she's an angel, She's my angel. And then when

(01:12:57):
he said the word angel, I saw those bloodubber lips
and it was like Mick Jaggers saying angey real. And
I said, oh my god, I have to get him
to have those blubber lips just like just like Jagger
saying angel. And so I talked him into, you know,

(01:13:18):
writing this song to Teresa, You're my Angel, come and
save me tonight. We wrote that song literally that was
forty five minutes. And then, um, I mean it just
like flowed just like that everything about it. And um,
that song made it on the record and it was
like their second single, and um, I don't I didn't

(01:13:39):
get that much played and shows and stuff till recently.
I don't know if they went back to it or not,
but I did see a show where they did do it,
but maybe that's because they knew I was there. But um,
you know, it was like way more pop than they
were comfortable with. And you know, I was really the
first outside person to co with them, you know. And

(01:14:02):
and I think I kind of like almost invented a
career because before, you know, it was like not cool
for for bands to write with outside people, but maybe
they take a suggestion from a producer who would get
their name on it, but for a professional songwriter to
come in like a consultant and um, you know, uh,

(01:14:24):
then do that that was not a career that was happening.
And when people saw the success I was happening having
you know, a lot of people that had tried to
be stars or this or that jumped into that, you know,
and started doing the same thing as me. And then
I'd start to see their names, you know, like Mark
Hudson and people like that appear on the same with

(01:14:47):
the same bands that I was working with. Okay, let's
go back to the beginning. So you're from Miami. Yeah,
were you born in Miami? I was born in Gainesville, Florida. Okay,
your parents. You say you're father was Hungary and he
literally came from Hungary. Yes, But my mother was married
to an American geologist and she went from Cuba two

(01:15:11):
Ecuador and then Venezuela and lived in oil camps with
you know, her husband, who was sixteen years older than her.
And she's you know, she looked like an American movie star.
She was kind of tall, so she didn't really fit
in with other more Latina girls that were smaller and
and all that. She and she was very kind of

(01:15:34):
there was something about her that was androgynous, and so
even though she was so beautiful, I mean, she would
she would prefer talking to men. She would sit with
their legs open, you know, like sit like a man
or something like that. She was like that, and she
was hanging around Tennessee williams Uh and people like that

(01:15:55):
and the this is the late forties, early fifties in Havana.
And so she she found this American and she thought
it was her last chance. She was twenty three and
everyone said she was going to be a spinster. So
she marries this guy who really, you know, I don't
think he knew what he was getting into because she

(01:16:15):
was full of energy and laughter. And then um, he
had his mother who was like um, Maggie Smith, who
was an english woman from Manchester, England, and who didn't
speak Spanish, and she didn't like my mother at all.
So my mother was miserable, miserable, miserable, living in an

(01:16:36):
oil camp in Venezuela. So on Wednesdays she would go
on a ferry boat to the main little town, which
is like the wild West, but there was a movie
theater and there'd be an American film, so she'd go.
And so one day she walked in the movie theater
was empty, so she went and sat down and she
it was National Velvet with Elizabeth Taylor. And then this

(01:17:00):
man came in and sat next to her in the
empty theater and just started looking at her. And he
was handsome. He looked like Errol Flynn, a movie star,
Carrie Grant or something like that. And so they went
and had coffee and they began. Every Wednesday, she would
go in and then they would hook up. And so
in one of those I was conceived. And so when

(01:17:22):
she just to be clear, is that your Hungarian father? Okay,
what was he doing in Venezuela. He went in with
immigrants that that we're all traveling around, you know, um
because remember that Russia took over, so even you know,
so he was hanging around with Jewish um families and
he you know, he wasn't Jewish, but he was you know,

(01:17:45):
like comfortable, you know, and they were all building businesses.
And he started building oil platforms out of cement and
that was his business. And so you know, so you know,
in those days, remember if you went to town, you

(01:18:06):
were a suit and tie and all of that is
this is and I was conceived on her birthday, January
I was born exactly nine months later. So one day
she stopped coming and he would wait for that ferry boat,
and then he'd wait the next Wednesday, and she wasn't coming.

(01:18:28):
She wasn't coming, she wasn't coming, and he started getting
like really uptight. He was really in love with her.
So he takes the ferry boat to the other side,
goes to the oil camp and they said, oh, no,
they moved away. Where did they move We not allowed
to give you that information. And so they had moved
to Gainesville, Florida, and he got a job as a
teacher at the Florida University Florida State University or whatever,

(01:18:52):
and they had a dairy ranch. He bought a dairy ranch.
This is my mother's husband, John Barrett. And so my father,
who was desperate, went to Havana and from little clues
that she had said in their time together, he tried
to track her down. So he went to the Hotel

(01:19:13):
Nacional and he looked across the barney, thought he sorry,
ran up to her and um, it was her sister,
because they were all very similar looking. And uh, she
was at that time the mistress of the dictator Bautista,
this is babe, and she was like the eight girl

(01:19:33):
of Havana and um. So he gave her a letter
on the stationary and she put it inside her own
letter and sent it to Hathorne. And they went back
and forth like that, first to Cuba, then to him,
and you know, like that and uh. Then finally they
agreed to meet in Miami Beach in a little hotel
off of seventy one Street that ultimately was where kunan

(01:19:57):
and was hiding, right was before he did the rassade thing.
And that they were together six days and that was
the only time we were ever a family. Really. Yeah,
in those six days, he'd already been born. I was
six months old, So I mean that whole process I got.

(01:20:17):
So then he felt like he had convinced her that
she would leave her husband because I had his child.
And so she said, she said, okay, I'll do We'll
do that. She said, come in thirty days to pick
me up in the farm and and that will give
me a chance to you know, deal with him and
pack all my things and all this kind of stuff.

(01:20:38):
So he went there and in a car that he
rent a car, and then his brother was driving a
U haul and they show up and she was like
she still hadn't told her husband. She couldn't deal with it.
She was like a wreck because she was afraid of
what her family would think of her. And so he

(01:21:04):
was there talking to her, and we had and the
brother was taking pictures really cinematic and I'm like playing
on the floor. And then the husband comes home and
he's like, who are these men? And so she was
like and tear She went into the house and she
locked herself in the bathroom. And then um, you know,
my biological father, Joe Marphy and Mr Barrett went for

(01:21:27):
a long walk, and according to my father, he was like,
because they had already been having a lot of trouble
and everything, he said, okay, you know, take her, take
the kid, just get out of here. But you know,
my mother told a different story that she said, you
can take her, but you have to leave the kid,

(01:21:47):
which is an impossible thing, like he would never have said.
So she refused to go, and so then they and
then Mr Barrett told Uh Marphy, Joe Marphy that never
to try to contact them again, to just leave and
never never come back. So then he went back to Venezuela, heartbroken,

(01:22:12):
and he married um Um Holocaust survivor, and they began
their family and all of that, and then, uh, you know,
eventually it didn't work out of course with Mr Barrett,
so she moved to Miami and then she recontacted him,
but he had already married. So it's like their their

(01:22:36):
ships didn't cross. But when I when I didn't find
out about this story until I had turned eighteen. Really yeah,
so I thought the other guy was my father. So
then when I was eighteen, my biological father insisted to
tell me. So I was already living in Woodstock, I

(01:22:56):
had dropped out of school, and I was, you know,
working at Bearsville as the coffee boy and um making
my first demo with Van Morrison's band and with Virgil
night Child was going to ride High and we went
to see seymour Stein and he was the first executive.
We we went down to New York and he just

(01:23:18):
started Siren and so, uh, he said, meet me in
New York. So I met him and it was like
a Luke Skywalker moment. Says he said, do you know
you know why I've always kind of come around and
all that? And then then he says, because I am
your father. You know, it was like it was like

(01:23:38):
a bucket of ice cold water, and then everything made sense.
And so from that moment on, he gave me money
to be able to drive back to Miami because we
were flat broke and um. Then he put me through college.
I went to community college and I graduated from n
y U. Really, yeah, okay, you're in school. Let's go

(01:24:00):
back to green school. Your mother ever find another guy? Oh?
She had many other men, okay, but none she married.
She married some how did you feel about that? It
was a terrible time. Remember we lived in the projects
of Liberty City, and she was, you know, working, and
she couldn't hold a job more than three weeks. And

(01:24:23):
she worked at Burger King and she'd come home at
night with these like whoppers that nobody ate. So we
would take the tops and then throw away the bottoms
and make one that was because it was they were
like mushy, and that's how we that's when we'd eat,
and you know, eleven'clock at night, and or it was
cereal and milk and stuff like that. It was really

(01:24:44):
poor and very dangerous place. But the beauty of all
these things is that I was playing on the swing sets,
you know, with you know, children of all races, and
there was always the R and B station that was playing,
and so I was listening to Aretha Franklin whistling pickt
and all of these records that were different than what

(01:25:07):
would would hear on TV or all of that. So
soul and all of that, it really got into into
my bones. Okay, you go to elementary school, you go
to high school, you fit in you and outsider, what
kind of I'm like. I went to my um, I
was poor and all that, but I started growing. I

(01:25:28):
started tending towards like the hippie and the spiritual cults
and gurus and health food and you know all of
that yoga and Rosa Christian Crucian and Sachia Nanda and
I went through all of these things. And I would
wear all white and then I would have like long
hair and beads and sandals and stuff. And I went

(01:25:51):
to my high school reunion my fort and people came
up to me and well, first of all, no one
invited me to any parties, nothing. And I started hanging
around with the weirdos, the people that would eventually finally
realized they were gay or artists are just like offbeat, right,
and so, um, that's where I met Virgil, and so

(01:26:14):
I moved to a hippie house in Coconut Grove called
the Maya Family, and um, all of these things, and uh,
I was never part of the rich kids, and so
I didn't fit into their world. Their clothes all came
from New York. They were driving their parents last year Cadillac.

(01:26:36):
I mean it was, you know. And so I went
to my high school reunion and they said, oh, you know, Desmond,
you were always a superstar. You know, you were so
mysterious with you were so handsome and and so cool,
and you were like you were like an angel walking
down the halls and all this kind of stuff. And

(01:26:58):
inside I just felt so like a nothing, you know, Latino,
poor gay. You know, I just didn't know what until
I met Virgil. And then she like gave me a
feeling like I belonged to something. We started reading cool
books together and and all of that. And then then

(01:27:21):
then when Desmond Child was born, then Desmond Child could
be anything I wanted it to be. I was no
longer Johnny Barrett, you know, that was a nothing. I
was now Desmond Child and I loved the name because
it reminded me of Elton John. It had that ring
to it. And so I've been able to become maybe

(01:27:44):
the arc type of whatever that is. You know. Okay,
so when do you start playing music? So we we
started playing little cafes, No no, no where did you
learn how to play? Take? And I always played piano
because my mom was was playing piano. That what was
always a piano in my else? Okay, do you take
lessons or just figured out by yourself? Figured out by myself?
Can read music now? No, even though I graduated from

(01:28:07):
n YU the music department, I can. I can know
you went down y good experience, bad experience. It was
a wonderful experience because I had like the most amazing teachers.
There was a voice teacher, John Kune. He lived to
be two and uh, he believed in me and he

(01:28:31):
really helped me to develop my voice. And then there
was Adina Scoville and she had invented the keyboard numerical
system where you put your hands on its one, three,
five and then you can play in any key and
that's what Nashville adopted. She invented that in the nineteen thirties.

(01:28:52):
And she had written a book called Keyboard Technique Modena Scoville,
and she was already super old, and she was teaching
at n y U. And she you know, when I
once I figured out how I can put my hands
down and modulate, it made a huge difference because I
could almost play anything, even though I mean I can't

(01:29:13):
play fast songs and stuff, but I could pluck out chords.
And I knew to do a seconds and force and
understand all of this. And then I had a UM,
a music theory teacher that was Holocaust survivor, and she
ilsa bunch and she believed in me. So made such

(01:29:39):
a difference, you know, And and um to have people that,
and so I wasn't want to do homework and all that,
so I always sit in the front row. So I
just listened really carefully, and then I did well in
my tests. I was a big believer when I went
to college, irrelevant of what you did, you gotta go
to class every day otherwise feel like you're not even there.

(01:29:59):
And so I was good at that. And I was
driving a cab, I was living with Maria in the
little apartment. I worked at a sporting goods store. I
did Xerox machine and she was working waitress, and you know,
those were like magical, wonderful days and hanging around Reno
Sweeney because that's where we wanted to play. And eventually

(01:30:21):
we opened, you know for four you know, bigger stars there,
and that's that's how we became, you know something. And
so we got signed out of there, uh two Capitol Records.
So who signed you? Richard Landis and you know, and

(01:30:41):
we were obsessed with Laura Nero. So he put us
with Charlie Collelo, who was the arranger of Eli and
the Thirteen Confessions. And then I hired Laura Nero's um
father to tune my piano so I could just pick
his brain about Laura and and he was you know,
we'd be there three hours and need to tell his

(01:31:03):
stories and stories and so you know, eventually, you know,
I got to know her a few years before she
passed away. Okay, she was living in Danbury then, and
I went to Danbury and she made me dinner. Okay, wait, wait,
but how did you make the connection? She played in

(01:31:26):
Santa Monica at a little jazz club on Santa Monica
Boulevard or something like that. In my place somebody's name.
I think, whatever, keep going. Yeah, And so I sent
back my my my business card and with a little
note says I wanted to meet you my whole life.
And so by the time I got home, there was

(01:31:48):
a message on my voicemail. Hi, It's Laura, and it
was like she gave me her phone number, and then
she came over for dinner. Wow. Well was that like
it was like magical. So then it was lucky because
Maria was already with Rick, and uh, Diana was there

(01:32:08):
and I think Miriam was in town. And we had
this this dinner you know, with Laura and Desmond Child
and Rouge. And then we went to my piano and
Laura sat at the piano and we started singing through
all the songs of Gonna Take a Miracle. Wow, it
was like a fans wild exactly. I got it. I
got it. I got it. And then and then she

(01:32:35):
invited me, you know, because she invited me to her
house for dinner. So I went and I imagined, like
this grant remember when I was living with Maria, had
this little tiny willeitz Er piano, and I kept singing, God,
you know, Laura Nero write so many songs much better
than mine. And she's probably on gorgeous piano overlooking riverside drive,

(01:32:57):
you know, all this kind of stuff. So I go
and rent a car, and I go to dan Berry
and I go on this thing and you know, she
lived in a prefab little gray thing that was like
a little trailer. It was literally a trailer. It was
like a pre fab It was like as wide as

(01:33:18):
you know, you could drive down a road right. And
then she had a little part that stuck out and
there was a fouton on the floor and that's where
she slept, and her son slept like in a little
loft over the closet. And um, she because she couldn't
afford to live in the main house that she owned,
so she had that rented. And she made me and

(01:33:42):
I thought, oh this she's Italian and Joe, She's gonna
make the most delicious good. It was just like regular
pasta with ragu, tomato, sauce, iceberg lettuce and french is dressed.
And I brought a bag full of like hogandas which
was you know, she loved that. So we had all
the four that I had brought in with spoons and

(01:34:03):
all this kind of stuff, and she had a picture
window and underneath the picture window was a little will
itz Er Spinett like the one I was writing exactly,
you know, with the little thing, and that's where she
was writing. And it was like, wow, isn't that ironic? Okay,

(01:34:24):
it's also ironic that she was straight and then she
went gay she came out. Yeah, I mean I think
she was. She wasn't like I think she was whatever,
bisexual or whatever she was whatever. Just an interesting parallel there.
Why do you why do you think? Oh? Well, when

(01:34:47):
we were listening to her music, Elien the third thing confessions,
I have an interesting story because the person who played
me that to begin with was Lisa Wexler, Jerry Wexler's daughter.
And did you know Jerry, Yes, because he was the dad.
This is when I was Yeah, but did you know
who he was? Kind of? And I would? They were

(01:35:09):
snowbirds and they had rented a house or maybe he
had actually bought on Alice in Island, and so I would.
I would I met her because I was me and
my cousin, my cousin Iggy. We would go and fish
coins out of the fountain blue fountains and the Eden
Rock and the dul and we were putting twenty bucks
in our pocket every time we went went there. So

(01:35:30):
I met Lisa and she was like the snowbird, very masculine,
and you know I always drawn to this and raging people.
And so she said, oh, come over to my house
for dinner, and so I started going over there and
the dinner uh, you know, because Jerry loved this kind
of more like being home for dinner. And you know, Sureley, Anita, Paul, Lisa, Me, Jerry,

(01:35:56):
Tom Dowd, a Reef Martin m at her again in
and they would be talking about the Vietnam War, the
politics and how they were scheming, you know, to take
over the music business and all these things. And I
just wanted to stay at the table. And she would
be like pulling on my shirt, like let's go to

(01:36:18):
my room, smoke a joint, you know whatever. And so
she pulled me over there and then she pulled out this,
uh this record actually it was Lauren NEOs Um more
than a New Discovery, the first album she played for me.
In the minute I heard her voice, it was like
touched me. It's like, okay, that's what I want to do.

(01:36:40):
That that touched me in a way that nothing ever did.
Her voice was like this wailing sound, and then her
picture and everything is she was like a Madonna or something.
You see her perform live, I have, Yeah, I did
at the University of Miami and then she was also
at the Gulf Stream. Yeah, I saw her three times.

(01:37:02):
Why do you think that after her initial period she
never had more success? Well, well, first of all, she
was never trying to write commercially, and it was David Geffen,
her agent and manager, who was placing the songs in

(01:37:25):
these amazing ways Three Dog Night and The Fifth Dimension
and you know, Barbara Streisan and like so many things,
and she became like, you know, the eight Girl of songwriting.
But she was a very shy person. And um, you know,

(01:37:47):
I think that David according to what she told me,
and also Clive Davis. You know, she was at Columbia
and David created Asylum Records essentially for her. But you know,
she didn't I want to leave Clive because it was

(01:38:07):
like a family to her. So she just wouldn't go.
And so I think David was very hurt by that.
And of course what he did was he found Joni
Mitchell and made her like the biggest female songwriter of
all time. So and so, then I once had lunch
with Clive Davis and and I said, well, what's your

(01:38:31):
I asked him, you know, interviewing him kind of like,
what's your biggest regret in your career? He said that
I didn't become David Geffen's partner and go with him
when he asked me to go, because I was putting
out three FT records a year. I couldn't understand his
business model, like twelve albums a year, and so it

(01:38:53):
just he'said, I just didn't get it, you know I
And so he says, that's my biggest rea rhet and
I just thought, well, like wow, And then I started
to think about it, and I thought like maybe David
was still trying to say, if I could get Clive
to come, then Laura will come. I got you, So

(01:39:14):
you know, I hope you know I'm not speaking out
of turn, but that was the math that I did. Okay,
what's your favorite Laura Neuros song, Eli's Coming Emily Okay, um,
beads of Sweat, Um Christmas and my Soul. I have

(01:39:36):
to say that that's that's the one. And when when
she died Desmond Child and Ruth sang that at the
Beacon Theater, you know, and in her tribute and um,
you know that song is just so great. Mine is
Captain for Dark Mornings. That okay. So so today, Desmond,

(01:39:57):
what are you up to today? Well? Um, last year
I decided I was going to perform again because I
want to, because I just had to. And so I
got all my friends together and went back to New
York and found a club that kind of remind me
of Reno Sweeney and it's called Finstein's Einstein's, as I say,

(01:40:22):
I know, Michael Finstein did a podcast with him, um
and um it was underneath fifty four below and I
think it used to be like the orgy room or
something where the drugs were all taken, you know, with
Houstin and Liza or whatever. In those days. I was
never able to get past the red red rope, not
that I really tried that hard. Um. And so we

(01:40:50):
I recorded those three nights and um then compiled it
together to be this live album desm Child Live that
I've you know, put out on b MG, and um,
you know, I'm just you know, it feels it feels
so good. I mean not all the songs that I
ever we're hits were on it, but I sing a
lot of the songs that became popular that I collaborated

(01:41:12):
with with Aerosmith, bon Jovi and all that, and um,
it's you know, it's it's kind of it's kind of homespun.
It's not slick. It's like it's just a live cabaret room.
But I'm very happy with it. And um, I mean
I opened the show with Laura Nero song The Man
Who Sends Me Home, which I dedicated to my husband.

(01:41:35):
Of course that didn't make it on the record, but
at I have it in the cans whatever and so um.
And then I've been writing my autobiography with David Ritz
and it's called Living on a Prayer, Big Songs, Big
Life with David Ritz, and it's it's still I think Thursday,

(01:41:56):
we're gonna make one last sweep through it and get
it up up to date. And you know, I haven't
been able to find a publishing deal yet, and I
was thinking just printing it myself and publishing it just
like Amazon or something. That's a whole separate conversation. I
don't know what to do. Um. I had some you

(01:42:16):
should talk to If you want to do it yourself,
Jason Flam did a children's book which he heavily promoted itself.
If you want to go that route, get ahold of Jason. Yeah, yeah,
Lulul Dog because we have a bulldog looks almost like
Lulu's sister. Uh so, um, so I've been working on that. Um.

(01:42:39):
I've been working on a Broadway musical called Cuba Libre,
and it's the true story of my mother's two very
beautiful younger sisters, Baba who I spoke about, who is
Bautista's mistress, and the youngest one, who was the revolutionary
in the family and she became Castro's lover after the revolution.
So we have two sisters to dig taters one island.

(01:43:02):
And so I've been working on it with David Sigerson
for since we started looking back, since two thousand four.
Are we coming to Uh yes, I mean We've worked
for many years, um developing it with you know, producers,
Broadway producers, but then they got busy with other shows

(01:43:23):
and this and that, and finally I think, you know,
we have a new resurgence that's coming and hopefully we'll
be able to start putting it up on the on
its feet. But you know, I put everything I've got
into that. And also have another collaborator, Andreas Carlson, who

(01:43:45):
co wrote a lot of the songs for the Backstreet
Boys in and Sink back in the day. And I
met him and when he came to see me, because
he was on a kind of pilgrimage to meet everybody
or anybody that he ever saw their name on a
kiss cover. So I was it. So we sat and

(01:44:07):
we we just bonded, and he started telling me about
oh Town, and he started telling me about lou Perlman
and what he was doing there with all these boy briends.
I said, wait a second, this is like the idol maker,
this is like this is amazing. This could make an
amazing movie. Right, So then we always talked about, you know,

(01:44:28):
how we would do it. So then when Luke Perlman
got caught perpetrating one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in
history and then he goes to jail, like, the story
just got better and better, and so Andreas like maybe
and I like eight years ago we bought the rights

(01:44:48):
to a book on the subject called The Hit Sharade
by Tyler Gray and then we bought the right. We option.
I would say I didn't winn't buy the rights. We
option the rights uh to an article in Vantage. Then
ay Fair called Matt about the boys. And so we
finally have amazing partners. Ed pressman, pressman film, um Greg

(01:45:10):
Basser who was with Village Road Show uh and now
he has his own company, Gentle Giant. He's Australian David Anton,
he's a you know, high end brand marketeer. Andreas and
myself and um Heather Winters who's one of my close
friends since she was the producer of the executive producer

(01:45:33):
of Supersized Me. And so we are now moving forward
to try to you know, get the director. The money's
called coming, it's all doing. It's a scripted film on
the subject. And I think what happened was that I
would come to l A and you know, I write
with different people and then you know, before you know it,

(01:45:55):
all of a sudden, there's like six people on the song.
And then maybe you could get Selena go Mess to
maybe cut a song. But if it's not a single,
then it's like all that effort, the trip, everything, it's
just or it doesn't get cut at all. And I said,
you know what, I want to be a buyer, not
a seller. I want to decide what songs go into
some big projects, and I want to put on you know, music,

(01:46:20):
and I want to write things. So that's what had
gotten into my head. Doing a musical, doing a movie, um,
you know, and I have other ideas you know that
I'm pursuing. And it's fun. It's really creative too because
I always wrote for archetypes, so I'm writing for characters
and um so this uh but the it's called trans

(01:46:43):
Con Theoretical Airline. The movie is called trans Con The
Making of lou Perlman and the Boy Band Revolution. Now.
Uh so if someone calls you to write, co write today,
you will say, um, well, like who like an artist
or like other pals you know that are an artist?

(01:47:06):
An artist? Well, you know, there's some really great artists
that are young and and I listen to them and
if I feel that spark, I will write with them.
So in Nashville there's some new artists that I'm you know,
kind of working with and developing. But I'm also meeting with,
you know, an artist that's already making records and touring. Um,

(01:47:30):
and so I'm like I will meet, I will write,
I will you know. I'm just I just don't put
myself on a pedestal. The only problem is when the
person doesn't have writing skills that it's like playing like
Serena Williams playing with Grandma. It's like, that's not that's

(01:47:51):
not fun for me. And I don't think the best
thing comes out because then I impose everything on that
other person. They may not be able to pull it off.
And how often are you doing that? That's my day
job and I'm I'm like, I'll be going to New
York to work on my Broadway show or come out
here and doing I'm you know, yesterday I was running

(01:48:12):
with for the last two days with Rock Mafia, and
you know, we had a hit together with Z called
Beautiful Now, so you know we we're doing good. And
they welcome me so beautifully. That's that's because I'm not
there in their face all the time. I come every
few months. They're always happy to see me. And then Nashville,
I have my own studio and all that and people

(01:48:34):
are coming and um so why Nashville, there's a game? Man?
Well after we had you know, after after nine eleven,
see I go from tragedy tragedy earthquake. Nine eleven, I
had like twelve people working for me. It was the
Ricky Martin machine, and so Ricky lives six blocks away,

(01:48:56):
so we had four studios going and and engineers assistant engineers.
We were right on the water. Our cook was cooking
for ten twelve people every day, you know, lunch and dinner.
It was like a machine. And then after nine eleven,
the record companies. On the one hand, I didn't want
to pay too because remember the file sharing and all that.

(01:49:20):
They stopped letting people come and rent apartments or stay
in hotels to work with me. And also people were
afraid to fly, so now I spent. Then my my
children were born two thousand two, and so we had
a problem because the state of Florida wouldn't allow my
husband to be a legal co parent, So that was

(01:49:44):
that wasn't good. And so I had four houses, I
had my mom, and and it was like I wasn't
working and the things I was getting were real like
kind of sea level artists. Just to keep the lights
on and takeing on. I said, I'm wasting myself. It's
this isn't And at the same time, American Idol started happening,

(01:50:08):
so I started spending so much time in l A.
And and Clive was nice enough to put me into
with Kelly Clarkson and Clay Aiken and Carrie Underwood and
and Fantasia and all this kind of stuff. So I
was working for Clive, but my family was in Miami,
so you know, I kind of said, Okay, that's it,

(01:50:28):
let's just go back to l A. And you know,
Max Martin had moved to l A. Everybody was moving
to l A. And it seemed like, well, maybe I
can jump in like that. So we bought a house
and in Montenito, next to sam um Um Will Smith.
His like property was like stones throw away from ours.

(01:50:50):
It was four and a half acres this house, and
it had a waterfall, koy ponds, and it had all
this kind of stuff. But you know was after our
friends all had fun at our big fifty foot pool,
then they stopped coming to hang out with us. So
we started to feel very isolated. So we moved to
Santa Monica and we had a glorious time because the
kids went to like a preschool called Little Dolphins by

(01:51:13):
the Sea, and we met so many lifetime friends there,
it seemed like okay. And then finally the market that
we had bought a house in Center Market, but the
market had really peaked, and we said, because we had
always had our little cabin in in in Nashville, I said,
let's just sell. Let's go to Nashville and Curtis. We

(01:51:34):
also got scared because a lot of our friends that
had teenage kids, you know, going too high private high schools,
they were all already in rehab once or twice, and
we said, do we really want to raise our sons
here with these dangers. So Curtis, who's from Missouri, you know,

(01:51:55):
and his we can drive to his his mom's house
and all that said, know, let's go to Nashville. And
we've had a beautiful life there. We really have. Okay,
a couple of things. Two songs you're most proud of
Weird with Hansen, because that's the song that I feel

(01:52:17):
reflects them where you know, I feel you know, it's
like when you're you're feeling different and then kind of
getting to the place where you know what, even the
prom queen feels different. You know, she everyone looks at her,
she thinks, you know, everybody thinks she's so perfect and
she's the most insecure and so it's one of the

(01:52:40):
most beautiful songs, you know, continue and um, it's it's
inspired by Burt Backrack and the lyrics of haw David.
So I'm you know, I feel that song. And um

(01:53:00):
there's a song that I wrote with John bon Jovi
called you Want to Make a Memory and I sing
it in my show and I love that song because
you know, uh, my life is so much I mean,
I'm still friends with my high school friends. It's about
you know, we have so many memories and um, I

(01:53:23):
don't know, maybe that's kind of a maybe the age
that I'm in looking back on my life, retrospect in
my book, all this kind of stuff. But the idea
of making new memories, you have to make an effort. So,
you know, we get our friends and we all found
this little island in Greece and we meet there every summer.
We're going now for our twelve How many people go, Oh,

(01:53:46):
they come in and out, you know, but we stay
there for a month and then we stay at the
most fantastic It's Mama Mia, right, and you're on a
cliff and everything, and uh, you just forget about the world.
You start leaving your phone in your room, you start
not there's no TV. Uh, you stop looking at your computer,

(01:54:10):
and you start making a life for yourself and you
start peeling away all of this stuff. You know. By
the end, it's like, oh, there's just two more days. Really,
can we change our flights? Can we stay longer? Because
you know, you you start getting in touch. And then
our kids, who tough guys. I don't know how they
turned into such jocks. You know. My son's Roman and

(01:54:34):
Nero named after Lawer Nero and y r Oh. I
never saw jockey or jocks. I mean they will they
vowed never to see another Broadway show. Yeah, they will
not go. They will you know, hell no, we won't go.
So we we started them seeing like you know, Billy

(01:54:56):
Elliott in London when they were four years old. You know,
it was like um and so they like, you know,
they when we're in Greece, they turn like little kids,
you know, because they see the other European children hugging
their parents and stuff, and like when we're natural, it's
like and then when we're there, it was like they

(01:55:19):
just run like like in packs. They become like little
kids and I just love that about being there, Okay,
And what do you think about today's music? I love it.
I mean I love um the inventiveness. And you know,
it's like necessity, you know, because the budgets are you know,

(01:55:39):
they give you Okay, here's five thousand dollars and now
deliver your whole record. So what is it? Invention is
the daughter of necessity. I think people are making the
most out of samples and things and and actually bringing
into a high art form and I applaud it and
I think it's really good and it's more egalitarian, like

(01:56:02):
you can make a song today tonight and put it
out tonight before you'd wait two years for your single
to finally appear, and by that point it's out of style.
And so uh, I just think that this. I'm not
afraid of technology. I just love it and I'm working
in it. And what about melody? Melody? That's the thing.

(01:56:26):
It's like with these cut and paste things, I think
people get too lazy. And also they don't dig deep
enough into into the lyrics as much as they could.
I mean, I love urban music because lyrics are so
important to it and the inner rhyming and a literation
but I'm just talking about you know, pop music that

(01:56:48):
has you know, urban riffs and stuff like that. It
just doesn't sometimes feel like it's deep. Like I love
Halsey that song, you know without me. I just love
the sound of that and Billie Eilish and like all
of that, and the way that they're those productions are
there so sparse and they make the most out of nothing.

(01:57:11):
They're like Japanese haikus or something. I see it like
that because and I'm like back in the day, the
King of Walls of Sound. I love, you know, I
listened to Love Deluxe like over and over again. I
never get sick of it. It sounds like it was
done yesterday like today, and when somebody's doing true art,

(01:57:36):
it's timeless, and you know, I'm always striving for that.
And so I love I love the music of today,
and it was someone who's creative. What inspires you, well,
you know, I I think that when somebody some some

(01:57:57):
people have natural talent, you know, they're just anything they touched,
they like, they'll turn that box and all of sudden
they turn it on its side, and all of a
sudden they put something on top, and it's art. They
have the eye or they have the ear. Those people
are so rare, you know, because we also live in
the world where everybody wants to be famous. It's like

(01:58:20):
you can be famous for nothing and you're just cute
and funny or something, and you can have billions of followers.
So I think that when somebody walks into my office
and they have it, it's like I come alive, like
I get it and I feel it. And so there's

(01:58:43):
always somebody being born who has it, and so, but
it's not that many because it's a rare thing. Before,
when Clyde was putting out three fifty albums, you know,
in the seventies in every genre, you know, that was
the Harvard of Music, you know, and you know, it

(01:59:06):
was like wow, and you'd listen to those records over
and over and over again. Now it's like it sounds
it seems like people are putting out three songs a second.
I think they are. I mean, it's almost impossible to
to wrap your head around it. And and of all that,

(01:59:26):
what really is essential? Really, I guess people find it
and then it touches them, you know. And so if
it's moving people and inspiring people, or even if it's
not inspiring people's making people mad. I think that's it's
bringing out emotion. I think that that's worthwhile. But you know,

(01:59:49):
the who knows where the world's going, right, it's it's
going so fast I can't keep track of it. I
just want to be as I heard Dolly Parton once
say on TV. She said, well I want to be
an active participant in the entertainment industry. And there we

(02:00:13):
have it. Desmond, thanks so much for doing this. Has
been wonderful. Thank you. I feel like I've been in
therapy the whole time. Well, hopefully it will benefit you
as much of my audience. Until next time, This is
Bob Left says

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Bob Lefsetz

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