John Waite

There's a new documentary about John Waite, "The Hard Way." We discuss the film as well as John's career. John is an artist who never stops creating, he's a true believer, you will find him intriguing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Left That's podcast. My
guest today is John Weet, who has a new documentary
which will be released on December six. John, good to
have you on the podcast. Why now, Why a documentary? Uh?
I don't know. It just happened. I was stiving to

(00:30):
an old friend of mine in Poland the Black Lives
Matter protests that that turned into a riot and they
were burning potland and he lived up there and I
I called him up to see if it was all right.
And we got talking and he said, you know, you've
got such an interesting life and history and you're still

(00:52):
out there doing it. This is making a fabulous movie,
you know. And I said, well, you know, that's so
very well. But who would want to make it? You know?
And he called me back a month later with the
backing and yeah, I just fell into it. I did.
I just fell into it. It just it wasn't planned.

(01:13):
It just happened. So how much money did it take
to make the movie? I have no idea, you see, Um,
I know it's a consumerable amount. It's like a full
budget documentary. But I had nothing to do with any
of the personnel or the choices of footage. I just
showed up for the interviews. Uh. It was simplicit in

(01:36):
the deal that I I wouldn't ask to see anything
before it was finished. I didn't want to have any
kind of input on a on what it looked like.
If it's going to be a documentary, and it's certainly's
objective viewpoint of view, um or subjective. I mean, that's
what it is. That's a that's a documentary. And I

(01:59):
had enough for expect for the medium, so no, I
thought it would be ridiculous to get involved. You know, Well,
it's interesting because, in the light of high deaf cameras
on your phone, seemingly every musician has a documentary and uh,
but yours is radically different. It's just not an embellishment

(02:21):
of your career, really gets down into the nitty gritty
of your identity, your struggles. So it's a great watch,
even for someone who is not familiar with his career.
But since you had no involvement, now that it's finished, yet,
what's your assessment. Well, it took me three months to

(02:42):
watch it. It sent me a finished company and I
just refused to watch it. And then one night I
drank about the wine and said to nice tonight, you know,
and I watched it and I was kind of dumb struck,
and I thought, well, what's that? And then the next
day I watched it again, completely sober, and I thought, well,
there you go. You know, um, I think it's uh,

(03:03):
it isn't like it's like a nonlinear thing. It starts
off uh in the present, and bounces back to the babies,
and then it moves forward to my parents and he
going to art school, my love of Western music as
a kid, and then it's sort of it shoots too
bad English and then winds up in the present. So uh,

(03:26):
it's still of a style that somebody's personality that I
find it hard to critique. When he certainly makes a
movie about you, you can't really say anything, can you, Bob?
If they if they made a documentary in your life, Um,
how would you react to that? Well, you know, this

(03:48):
is something that's interesting because John Winner, who started an
own Rolling Stone, he hired someone to write a book
about him, and then he wasn't happy and he wrote
his own book, which really undercut his identity because if
somebody else who writes it can say, well you have
plausible deniability. Yeah, yeah, the memory has us as some

(04:12):
really convenient edit points, you know, And I've found that
with with the documentaries I've actually watched, Uh, people skip
over the dark stuff and it's all promotional, you know.
I mean, it's the tool to sell more records. It's
the tool to promote the artist. And I just said
no interest in that. I mean, you know, I uh,

(04:38):
you know how often this is happening in a lifetime. Somebody,
you know, knock on the door at dawn and you
open the door and there's a film crew. You know,
it's just the artest thing. I mean, I think anybody
outside of the situation with know more about it than me.
I just tried to tell the truth and keep it
straight first, you know, Okay, having watched the MO movie, Uh,

(05:02):
how's your state of mind? The movie was filmed during
COVID when you weren't working, and you were not happy
about that. It caused tensions in your relationship. Now that
you're back on the road, is everything hunky dory or
you know, we live in a completely different era. You
had great breakthroughs in the MTV era, and it's in
the movie where you're a household name around the world.

(05:24):
You almost can't leave the you know, go to the supermarket.
But what's it like for you today? Uh? What you
mean fan wise? After the Well, let's start inside your head.
Are you depressed? Are you optimistic? Well no, I'm always optimistic.
It's the one thing that's probably kept me up and
running is that I always think today it's going to

(05:46):
be a great day, and I never even think about it.
I believe in it, you know, and uh, you can
stumble across something that makes the great or at least
the best you can do. UM. I think the pandemic
was very difficult for everybody. Relationships, uh, the lot. I mean,
when you're sort of locked into a life of um

(06:08):
not being able to go outside and connect with people,
or being a musician, UM, not being able to transmit
all those ideas and have that exchange, it's bound to
have a negative effect. I mean, it was very depressing.
It's how to look back on it. Interestingly enough, I
don't really remember much about it. It's like it's just

(06:29):
the same day over and over again. So it was
a terrible time, you know. I but I think we
came out swinging at the end of it, you know,
I think it was it was great to be back.
And we haven't stopped working since. We came out early
like last July and played a couple of private shows

(06:50):
and then we just hit the road and played right
through the rest of the year. And this year we
started started off making up for the gigs that have
been rescheduled, did a complete American tour, went straight from
there to Holland, and came back like three weeks ago
and played another show in Massachusetts and then we're off again,

(07:12):
I mean St. Louis today. So there is something about
moving and taking stock and re evaluates he what's going
on and where the work is and what least to
to be done to move forward. You know, a lot
of acts had financial issues, not working, the had overhead,
they had bands. Was it a struggle for you or

(07:33):
did you have enough in savings? No, I've certainly had
nothing in the bank. I've been taken care to stopped
by as much many as I can since I got
control of my career to make up for lost time.
You know. Um. The unfortunate thing, just sort of like
the sideline, is that now that Spotify is streaming artist

(07:55):
music and paying such a minimal royalty, ya, the artist
as usual falls back on working live to make up
for that to get through, and with a pandemic that
was taken away as well. So a lot of musicians
really got hurt in that situation. But I was looking

(08:16):
that I had enough royalties coming in and enough in
the bank not to worry about it. Okay, when Napster
came in and royalty started going down in the earlier
part of this century, were you still having a significant
payment in recording royalties that fell off? It just maybe

(08:38):
by about sevent I mean, at one point, you know,
I had so many hits, like with the Babies and
with the solo stuff about English and recently you know,
with the with the stuff that's getting played on radio.
But once uh Spotify came in, that was the end
of that. It was just like a piece of Peter

(09:00):
Framptons said, if he's gets a million streams, he gets
like a hundred dollars. You know, it's an absurd small
amount that's been sort of but surely given to the artist. Okay,
let's talk about all your records. Who owned those records?

(09:21):
Obviously your recent solo ones I believe you own, but
the stuff on crystalists and stuff with bad English are
those still owned by the record company or those owned
by you. Well, the baby stuff will always be with
Christmas and the first solo. Um, I've got the publishing
back on everything forward of that, Uh I have, while

(09:45):
I own with the rest of about English about English stuff. Uh,
that will come back to me probably this year. I mean,
so no letter he comes back to you. I mean
I did try and get that. I did. I really
did try and get some of it back from Christmas.
But uh, it's just technicalsis. You know, there's lawyers involved,

(10:07):
and it goes to cool and they have bigger lawyers
than I do. Okay, you know you made multiple records
with Chrysalis, and the way the game works, many acts
sell millions of records, but they still don't get any
royalties because the record company says they're still in the red. Yeah.
Do you happen to know if you're in the red
or the black with Chrysalis Um And definitely as far

(10:32):
as they say in the red. So there's a point
you get with that, we just say keep it. You know,
I don't want to get down on that level where
it's like, I mean, it's a squabble, you know, I mean,
it's had its head day. We were all young and crazy.
Me had careers out of it, and you have to
be philosophical about it and say, well, it gave me

(10:54):
a name and I was able to go forward from
that point and and do very well. So at some
point you just don't want to cloud your life with it. Really, well,
that's a great philosophy. I wish everybody had that. But
needless to say, from when you broke in a mono
culture to today, you know, if you're the biggest act

(11:17):
in the world from that era and you put out
a single, it still gets no traction. So how do
you feel about making new music when it's so hard
to be noticed? Well, I think honestly, Um, you spend
six months right in a record and getting the right musicians,
the band and engineer, the right studio. It's very hard

(11:39):
work and there's a lot of commitment to it. The
songs have to be a really high caliber. You're not
messing around things, and you spend all the money like
fifty ground or whatever it is, which is a reasonable
amount of money to make a great record. If you
can't make a great record for fifty ground, there's something
wrong with you. And the idea is to do first,
second tax and fix things, but not do it like

(12:02):
it used to be done, which is like recording every
uh instruments separately and all that kind of crap. It's
just really and but you put it out and in
this kind of day and age, it's only in the
spotlight for like a week and then it's gone. And
if you don't make records, your fans are kind of
annoyed it you for not doing anything new. So um,

(12:26):
it's a pleasure to make the albums, and it's a
pleasure to play them to the audience. And that you
really sell a lot of those albums at gigs, you know.
I mean nobody really buys CDs anymore, but they people
buy them. It shows because there are thousands and thousands
and thousands of CDs. It shows. But I think the

(12:47):
music business, as that's what we thought it was, just
simply doesn't exist anymore. It just does not exist. Okay,
you go on the road at merch table, you sell
c ds? What else do you sell? And do you
personally get behind the merch table and sign it? It's

(13:07):
all signed. We do a meet and great. I try
and spend time with each person that comes that, I'll
just swheel them through. Uh, the very sincere, genuine kind
of They always met their effort to meet you. So
I've found that I could be quite social and put
people at their ease and talk to them for quite
a long time. And I can't imagine doing it any

(13:29):
other way. If you get behind the merch table, you're
gonna get mobbed. Oh it's going to get out of control.
It's gonna but everything signed. We have t shirts, CDs, buttons, lyrics,
pieces of art, I pen so you can buy all
sorts of things. We try and keep the price down.
I will say that instead of it being a fifted

(13:49):
on a T shirt, it's a twined on a T shirt.
Instead of it being a forded on the c D,
it's a twined on CD. And I think that's part
of the deal with the audience come to see you
and they stick with you to thick and thin, and
I'm not going to gouge my audience to two make
a profit. You know, it makes a profit, but it

(14:11):
isn't stupid, you know, but it's enough. So you're talking
about these hardcore John Wade bands, Do you actually know
some of them? Yeah, you know, over the years. You know,
you do see those spaces coming um in the front
row and you you know, give him a wink and
a smile and say hello. But it really is, you know,

(14:35):
it's like it's that thing I talked about the documentary
about the exchange. It really is. It transcends just going
out and playing and you know, being rock and all that,
there's something going on with music. You don't write music
to put in a vault and nobody here is that
you share it. In a perfect world, music really would

(14:58):
be free. You know, you can't hire a band, take
them out on the road and pay for the hotels
and airplane flights and not charged people. But there's a
middle ground where you can really bring it to the
people and celebrate that thing, and there is a feeling
of almost family about it. People show up and travel
from all of the world. You know, it's amazing. At

(15:21):
least I can do is show up and and share
it in a fair way. So prior to the pandemic,
going forward, how many days a year do you work, Well,
we were doing about seventy two a c days a year.
But this year we went to Holland, we did a

(15:42):
major American tour. We cliff the first half of the
year making up days. I would say we're about seventy
now and we have like twenty more days to go,
so we're probably about twenty more days ahead. As things are,
I think with the documentary coming out, we'll probably do
more days. Know, and you know, there are different styles

(16:03):
of going on the road based on income. There are
people who take private jets, there are people in station wagons,
people people and tour busters. How you doing it these days?
But we fly in, we're all flying from different places
and we meet at the airport. There's a van. Tim
runs off against the van. He picks us all up.
We thought the guitars in the back, goes to the

(16:24):
hotel or find some Indian food, then goes to the hotel.
We drive as much as we can. Everybody has to fly.
Flying in the airport and security just kills the vibe
of being out there. So we drive and if it's
a five hour drive, we'll leave after the show and
knock a couple of hours out and stay in a
hotel on the highway and then wake up, only get

(16:47):
back in the van and tracks the next game. It's
it's low impact. I think We've got it down to
a science. I really do. Um, everybody gets on, there's
always jokes, you know, everybody's sort of knows what to do.
So it's the best it can be. It's really, Uh,
of all the touring I've done, this has been the easiest,

(17:07):
and in some ways it's open to the most things
going wrong. But we we just seem to sort of
like roll with the punches. There's a movie Paul Simon made,
I believe it was One Trick Pony and they're these
seems driving in the van where they're playing games like
Dead Rock Stars, et cetera. When you're in the van,

(17:27):
is their conversation or is everybody in their own world? Um? Well,
I hope they're not gonna play Dead brook Star because
fairly soon it's gonna be me. Uh let me see
no we we you know, it stunded off like a
lot of chassis, you know, and then we were playing
like Bill Evans, which feel like Bill Evans. And then

(17:49):
then it was Ell Fitzgerald and it was kind of like,
you know, free, and then it got more obscure, and
when it's cream and a bounced that we love. And
now everybody's start of reading the book or sleeping. You know.
I think there's a kind of nervous energy where you're
trying to communicate all the time, and that can get
in the way of the communication later on in the day.

(18:10):
I think if you if you can keep in your
own space mentally, you're gonna go to offer when you
actually get into that musical conversation on stage. Okay, so
let's assume you do a gig you end at eleven o'clock. Yeah.
What people don't realize is a musician is really wired

(18:30):
after that because you've given it all. You're all So
let's say it's a drive. So how long after the
gig are you gonna get into the van? And how
long before you personally can come down from the gig? Well,
that's you know, the adrenaline. Being a singer, me and
the drummer have the hardest gigs because it's a very aerobic,
kind of physically demanding thing. Yea, how it's going like

(18:55):
a like a steam house. You come off stage, you
shake hounds, people, signs, some stuff, get in the valan
drive and you can still when you get to the hotel,
it's a strange room. You know, you check into a
different world. Um you can be awake till three in
the morning. You know, it's just the way it is.

(19:15):
I listened to audiobooks a lot. Uh. You can't take
anything to help your sleep because it's gonna affect your vocals.
You know, it really gets in the way of performance.
So you really can't um use anything to to knock
you out. But audiobooks work, you know, they really do you.
The moment you're in the book, you're asleep. Okay, since

(19:39):
you're a connoisseury, give me two good audio books that
you can recommend. Um. Well, I was listening to George Simono.
Um uh, the Magrade books, the French Detective they're very,
very good and they're a different worlder in France. And
the John Nesba Harry Hole Detective books that incredibly well written.

(20:04):
And uh, you know Harry Hole, I mean you just
kind of go with it's strategic, but it's very agergic.
But you know, the French Revolution not getting you get
into that young Stalin. You know these you know, it's
anything that's gonna take your mind away from where you are.
The further away from where you are, it's gonna it's

(20:26):
gonna open that door. And you're gonna crash. You know,
it's great. Okay, let's be very specific, gig games to
the leven. What time do you get the hotel on
the road. Well, it could be if we're staying in
the neighborhood within an hour, but if if you if
you have six hundred miles to go. He generally just
pounded the van and drive for three hours, like I said,

(20:47):
crashing in a hotel on the way, a holiday inn,
and get up the next stage and finish the drive.
But it's good, you know. I mean, what else you
gonna do? You're gonna go hang out? I mean, you know,
it's not you don't want to party do it? And
all that kind of stuff. They haven't been really younger.
It doesn't work. I mean, I don't know how the
hell we got through some of that stuff when we

(21:08):
were kids, because nobody got any sleep and it was
just impossible. But it was romantic and we all loved it,
you know. But I think as you get older, the
work is absolutely the first thing on the menu. The
good time thing comes to maybe third. You know, it's
you know, it's it's it's enough of a good time

(21:28):
to rip out it with a great show. Okay, but
do you end up getting enough sleep? Now? Never? But
you're running on empty. You know. The one thing, the
two things on the road that you need more than
anything is sleep and coffee, and the two opposite ends
of of what it takes to get through. But we
change during coffee, you know, we um coffee is just

(21:52):
the thing. We just thought coffee up and you'd be surprised,
you know, you could be. You know, sometimes to make
it work, you do four if I gigs in a row,
and on the fifth gig, it's like, Holy Christ, you know,
how are you gonna pull this off? You know? And
your voice is scratching, and you walk out there and
within ten seconds everything's in focus. You have all the

(22:14):
energy in the world. The audience give you all this
stuff and you immediately give it back to the audience
and aware you go and it could be the best
show you're gonna play off the five. You know, it's
always that thing you walk out from the moment you
leave the wings to walking towards the microphone too, holding
the microphone, plugging in the guitar. That something is transformative

(22:35):
in those twenty paces and you just you're in flight,
you know, it's it's why you can. Let's say you
do a run, a date and you fly home. How
long does it take you to calm down from those dates?
That's that's a good one. Um, yeah, that's a rough one.

(23:00):
Know I was younger, it was almost impossible. Yeah, you
come back from a baby's too, and I'd just rattle,
you know, I'd be looking for things to do, and
at night it would be just terrible. And you kind
of sitting and watch TV. These days on the way
back from the airport. Uh, me and my girl probably
go and get a lot of Indian food and you know,

(23:20):
eat a gigantic amount of food and have a beer maybe,
and that seems to calm things down. I mean at
some point, you know, you have to. You learn, really,
you learn how to step back, you know. Okay, you
live in Santa Monica, I do. Yeah, So where's good
Indian food that you get? Uh there's one on Pico

(23:44):
There's I think India's other. It's like really just a
small hideaway in a strip mall. But the great people,
the seeks, the chef is were like a beautiful, bright
yellow turban and stuff and that the nice people I know.
But you know, you could. You can really fast good
stuff and in the in the Sana Monica area, that's

(24:06):
a very good Indian restaurants. Okay, do you own your
own home Combomidium Red? Yeah? How long? How long did
you buy? By? About twenty years ago? Good investment? Yeah,
I know, I know, I was. I was living in
New York City, which is probably home, but I've been

(24:27):
there quite a long time, living on Madison Avenue. And
I had a record coming out. My manager was living
in l A. And I thought, well, I'm going and
spend a year in l A. And I went on
tour and for some strange reasons made a lot of money,
and I was like, what am I gonna do with
all this money? You know, and being someone that's seen

(24:49):
the bank account go down to you know, in the red,
I had enough sense to buy something. So I bought
this really beautiful condo for the going right, which was
pretty affordable, and you know, yeah, I own it now.
One element of the movie is this girlfriend you have

(25:11):
and she says that you've known each other the better
part of twenty years, but you just started to live together.
What's the back story there? Well, we met um um
walking through Central Park, she was on a soap opera
called The City Janie Allen, and that she was walking

(25:32):
west and I was walking east, and she asked me
how to get out of the park because Central Park
in the middle of it. It's like an obstunalely illusion.
It sort of makes you think you're going in one day,
actual well you're not. It's very cleverly laid out. And
you know, we were on and off again for years
and years and years, and when I moved to Santa Monica,

(25:53):
I was I was on the bike path going south. No,
she was going to south and I was going north,
and we sort of almost bumped into each other. So
it's kind of like it's like one of those you know,
it's a Tom Hanks movie, all you know, rock and roll.
But she liked the idea that you that you said

(26:14):
she was well endowed. She's just a very skinny do
better being better. But okay, I have to ask because
the movie was shot during the pandemic, and there are
a couple of moments where she's expressing tension in the
relationship and frustration that you've internalized because you can't go

(26:35):
on the road. Now that you're back on the road,
how you getting along well with trying? I think with
every every relationship, it never stops. You know, you're trying
all the time. Uh, there's part of me, to be
really honest, there's a solitary kind of first, which is
probably why I lived in New York City for so
long and loved it. Is that you can just come

(26:58):
and go and I'm always thinking about something of reading
a book. You know, I can be further distant. So
we always have to work on me being distant. But
we're still together, you know. Okay, So you're a creative person.
You know. It's what people don't realize. It's the very

(27:19):
outgoing extroverts who are the businesspeople, and the introverts are
the artists. And it's a very different mentality even though
they intersect. So but in music one has to network
and work it. So how do you get those two
sides your personality to work. One wants to be at home, internalized,

(27:41):
being creative. The other one has to go out, get
a job, get a band. Ether. Yeah. Yeah, but it's
like I said before, but it's like you don't write
music to keep it to yourself. Um. Alison Krauss was
told me we were both shy people. I was very
shy as a kid, cripplingly shy, and I was a
base player all basically as a kind of like that.

(28:04):
But Allison Cross says she had to overcome a shyness
to do what she loved the most. And I think
that person that's kind of introverted or introspective is the
word that writes that stuff, that performs those songs. Um,
you can't just keep it yourself at some point, you have.
The whole point of music, of art is to share something.

(28:29):
It's and you know, when I was in the Babies,
I mean I didn't want to be sense of stage.
I didn't want to be the singer. I was the
only guy that could do it. So I put it
all to once side said come on then now or never,
you know, and I stepped into that persona and then
it became easier and easier. And it's like I said

(28:50):
about the meet and Greed. I can walk into a
room full of people and I think, honestly put them
at their ease almost immediately. And I think it's a
sincere thing to it. It's not like something you learn.
It's I think I'm naturally friendly and I and I
respect people, and I want them to have a great
time when they come and see me play. If I
can spend fifteen minutes to our nestility and it turns

(29:11):
the world around. I mean, what a joke, you know,
as answer the bird and said, you know what a jump?
I make people happy. And some of the songs are
desperate and they're dark, and they're not something you want
to listen to if you want to. You know, part
of your brands up as people relate, you know. I
think we're all going through the same things as we

(29:32):
get older, and I think there's a conversation going on
between the audience and the artist, and it's it's a
worthwhile conversation. Okay, let's talk a little bit more about
your personality. Hypothetically, I call you John, We're going to
a party. There's gonna be fifty people there, come along.
Are you going to say? Give me the address? You're
gonna say? I don't really, I just know I wouldn't go.

(29:56):
I really wouldn't. Michelle Peiffer said once that she when
she got invited to parties, she'd wind up in the
garden playing with the dog, you know, And I thought
that was very endearing. But I'm like that. I mean,
I like people, but I don't have to go out
and hang around in Boston meet people and sort of
you know, I I really value the time by myself.

(30:20):
I read a lot, and I pin and I write
a lot, and I'd like to keep the two worlds
kind of separate. I mean, once you're on the road
with the band, you know, it's Camaraderie's is a lot
of fun, and then there's the show and all the
people you meet. It's a very positive thing. But I
need to go back into my roots to recharge. I

(30:43):
can't stay in the spotlight too long. So let's say
you're in your house and you're in a room and
you're painting or something and your girlfriend interrupts you. Are
you cool with that? Or you're saying no, no, I'm
in my zone. You got no no, no, no, I'm not.
But it's it's I will be looking for something to do.
That's that's kind of I've just recently started to write stories,

(31:06):
like short stories, and I've kind of got a knack
for it. I just ran off something that was like
just on a computer, just tapping out the words, and
these things are not like, um, it isn't like I'm
a boy genius. It's just what I do in my
often time. Some people watch TV. I don't. I can't

(31:30):
watch TV. I can watch a movie, but I can't
watch I just I'm not good at taking time off
listen doing something. So you talked about wanting to share
your art. Now that you're writing these short stories, are
you looking to share those? Well? I would like to
get better. I dashed up this five piece UM show

(31:51):
story about a guy looking for his brother and he
goes on a bender and so drinks hisself into the floor,
gets on the d yet ferry to France, gist and
knife fight with two apaches. The calling in France, uh
the street because he gets killed. Um And it's a
five part story, you know. I read reread it again

(32:14):
two weeks ago, and it's all sorts of editing. And
at first I thought I've stumbled across some rare talent,
you know, But I have nothing but respect for writers.
That's a whole different thing. That's the command I mean
writing songs is you have the chords behind it too,
to color the words. If you if you say a

(32:35):
certain word like trend and you play in a major
it's a beat. It's a train, you know, train tran
If you play an air minor, the train could be
going to hell, you know, it's like that. That's the different.
There's a lot of things in play. But just to
write this is why I'll never do a memoir. I

(32:55):
could never do it. I could never get that right. Okay,
let's just go back for a second to being on
the road. Um, did you ever have a time being
on the road using drugs and alcohol to calm down
from the geleration of the show? Yeah? And did it

(33:15):
ever get into a territory that you look back now
and say, what the hell was I doing? Or was
it always under control? No? I think on the road
if you start doing that kind of stuff. I mean
we're talking about cocaineously, but I mean if you in
the old days, it would be a couple of lines
of glow and people would do it. They would have
a shot of brandy or whatever, go to a club,
get up and sing with the band. Anything at all

(33:38):
could happen after that, and you would work up with
a hangover after travels for the next gig. And if
the band is any good and you have any sense that, oh,
the other three or four guys are gonna grab you
by the back of the color and stay knock it off.
This is how the lives too. You know. If you
start self destruct, usually get bounced out of the band.
It happens in a lot people drink themselves to death,

(34:00):
and it's the time off that's the problem. Because you
looked at the film Disvoid with something that's electrifying, you know. Well,
that is one serious moment in the movie where uh,
there's an altercation with the guitarist who's ultimately fired. So
give us a little bit more on that. Well, his

(34:24):
personality was flamboyant to say the least, and uh, I'm
sort of working class and he was very much up
a middle class and had a whole different take on
what he was there for. And he barely spoke to me.
I mean, I tried to write songs of him, you know,

(34:46):
tried to buy maturing, you know, but he had made
his mind up that I was the competition of something
and I, just like I said before, I didn't even
want to be in the center of the stage. But
it all came to a head on one of the
gigs when he smashed the guitar and screamed funk off
at the audience, and we just like looked at each other,
like we have no idea, at what point? How far

(35:09):
it's been so bad? For so long? I actually remember
having a glass of grand Mania at the end of
this table and smoking a cigarette. I mean, I remember thinking,
just another day, you know, it's just what goes on.
But it starts to get wilder and wilder, and by
the time we got on the bus, he was in

(35:30):
full meltdown. And in the movie it, you know, we
talked about finding stuff, but there was so much money
riding on the band and investment, not only from the
business spent, but from all of us, the hardship we've
been through to get that far. And then one guy

(35:51):
is trying to actually like, you know, really seriously injury
with an instrument. You know, it's like kind of like, wow,
know what is that? I mean, what is this bound
worth to me? You know, I don't want to go
through life with no eyesight. I don't want to you know,
maybe bleed to death on the floor because he's going

(36:11):
to broken ball. But it's the point where you look
at it, you like, Jesus Christ, ma'am, how do we
get to this. We're all trying to get to the
next level, and you're trying to kill me. I mean,
I don't know what to say to that, you know,
because I mean it's not something I enjoyed talking about.
It's still a mystery to me that I put up
with it for so long. But it did explode. And

(36:32):
when you fired him, what did he say? Oh, he
thinks that he was like the record company fighting and
but I mean that's like saying I didn't try and
funk you up at the bottom. It's the record company.
Don't like which that unreality thing comes into it, where
you think you're really dealing with somebody that's got a
different take on absolutely everything. You know, he was incensed,

(36:55):
but that should show you where he was. I mean,
at what point do you really try and mess someone
up with the broken body? Have you ever encountered him since? No,
he's he goes off on the internet and he's like,
you know, I'm a star, You're not all this kind

(37:16):
of crap, And I just know at some point you
just go, I did the best for you. I really
did know pret up with that for years and years,
and that's your answer to me. So what do I
do Okay, you grow up in northwest England. What's that like? Oh,
it's beautiful. Lancaster is a castle and our school that

(37:39):
was built that I went to to be it and
our school as like glass roofs for life class and
print rooms. It's not like that anymore. It's some sort
of building for different things tourist board. It's a very
very antiquated old city with the cobbled streets and houses

(37:59):
from the thirteenth century at the priory church next to
the castle, the foundations for a thousand years old and
it's laid out really beautifully. It's like a really incredibly strange,
very very British thing started about fields and we had
a university come about thirty five years ago and it's

(38:20):
it's taken over the town, so it's it's kind of
changed quite a long but Lancaster really is something. I
go back there as much as I can. And how
did your family end up there? Oh? They were born there.
I mean, you know, in England could go back five
hundred years. Do you know how many generations your family
was there? Um? Well, my my father's mother h her

(38:47):
family Um. In the Doomsday book, that's King John's Uh,
account of who owns what where the farm belongs to it,
you know, Um, they we call AGM so they go
back that they're like York, and that my mom is Lancashire,

(39:08):
and there's Irish blood in me somewhere, um from my
grandmother's mother. And there's some Maltese but apparently from a
generation or two before that. But it's pretty much Church
of England straight on, you know. I mean everybody comes
from somewhere in Britain. It's like you know, it's it's Celtic,

(39:32):
or it's Norman, or it's you know, angloss action. And
what did your parents do for a living? Well, my
mom was a nurse that the piano could tap pants,
all that kind of thing. She was great, she still is,
she's ninety seven. My dad he was a mechanic, but
there's also a chess player and extremely well right. He

(39:53):
was supposed to be the most well read man in Lancaster.
Also didact know because from the war camp you couldn't
go to university. But I think if the war hadn't happened,
he would have gone to university. Was he was an
absolutely incredible of the books and very smart man. And
how many kids in the family. I have a brother

(40:15):
called Joe. He was a really, really great guitar player
who had learned an enormous amount from now he's all,
he's all, he's four years older than me. Okay, So
you start going to school. What kind of kid are you?
Were you like the life of the party had outcast,
just one rob. I was pretty popular. I really was

(40:36):
a popular kid. You know that the bullies would always
come around and give you a really bad time, especially
when he got about fifteen. You know, I had long hand,
I dressed differently, and I didn't fit in at school,
but the girls like me, and I had a lot
of friends, you know. I would say I was a
really popular kid. I was looking back and it was
really wonderful, you know, but there's always those bastards in

(40:59):
the corner that I want to show you what'swa and
I took it very hard in the last couple of years.
It was just rough. Good student, bad student. Did knew
anything I couldn't. My Matthew is almost nonexistent. I had dyslexia,
so my bees and bees were backwards, which is ironic
being a lyricist, you know. But I love to read.

(41:21):
I love literature and I lived out, so they let
me just do art classes for my final year to
build up a portfolio so I could gainst our school,
which is very kind of it really was because I
really was the odd man out of school. I was
kind of the bohemian kid. But it was great and
like I said, I was kind of popular, so uh

(41:41):
you know, although there was a couple of moments of
extreme craziness with a couple of the really big kids,
I mean I got through it pretty well. Really. Okay,
so you're in the UK where the Beatles break a
couple of years earlier. Were you a big fee of
music before that or was it? So how did you

(42:03):
get into it? Well? Yeah, you would just see a
cowboy music, uh you know Marster Robbins trilled fighter bellas,
uh couldn't fight a bellas and trail songs. That was
a big album and I'd hear in occasionally on the
radio or in stores. We didn't have a record play
we couldn't afford on, but my my cousin Carol at

(42:25):
a radio gram and some records that she had Brenda
Lee Everybody Loves Me. But you remember hearing that was
about six and falling in love with Brenda Lee. But
it was a little country in Americana, but specifically Western songs.
I mean, Ghost Riders in the sky Man, you know,

(42:46):
it's that the barrettone guitar and cowboys. You know, he
just got through being a kid listening to you know,
David Crockett and stuff, and then it became the sexy
and things. You start to inch forward into being an
older kid, and you'd see the symbol some and there
was nothing more important than America when you're like five,
and it's, like I said, Davy Crockett, Cowboys and Indians

(43:08):
and then this music that could hear every once in
a while, and that led straight into the Beatles, and
from that point on there was absolutely no question about
what I would do. Really, So how did you first
hear the Beatles? Into what degree were you a fan
of the Beatles? Well, I remember, um, I remember, I

(43:32):
must have been about eight, but I remember watching this
TV show and they came on and they played Love
Me Do, And then the next week I think it
came back and did Please Please Me? But I saw
it on Granada Television. We lived in a tiny cottage
that first into the countryside. If you can imagine like
some little kid watching the Beatles in this cottage with

(43:54):
the trees outside in the fields. I mean, he said,
it's it's a it's a it's a strange picture. But
it was like the Northwest. They came from Liverpool, which
is only set in miles of Lancaster, and they were
the most different thing you've ever seen in the world.
But the sound of it itself, the sound was incredible

(44:15):
and the songs were you know, as we all know,
and it took us along with it. Uh. The next
seven years were like um, I mean, it was like
being given something. Every album that came out you couldn't
wait to hear it, and everything you heard made your
hairstand the band, I mean it was the most incredible thing.

(44:38):
And it was working class, which was really something you'd
never really seen that before. Hardcore, working class, black and
white Liverpool Lean and the best thing you're going to
hear for the next fifty years. You know, you know,
I only have an American perspective. The Beatles came, and
then there was so called British invasion, which was reething,

(45:00):
you know, hard edged on one level, like the Stones,
and then people who really weren't rockers like Freddie and
the Dreamers. On the other hand, so how do you
do you do? So? Were you a fan of all
those acts or was it more like, you know, no,
I just remember the other day, you know, people asking

(45:21):
me these questions. But I and I you go, like, yeah,
the Beatles, yeah, you know, you know, go st yeah,
you know. But I remember having a Pretty Things EP
with Don't Bring Me Down, Big Boss Man. Uh right,
last week City, I think it was on there. But
I remember having that EP. And I was only eight,

(45:45):
and I haven't got a record player, and my mom
would send me down to my grandmothers on a Friday
to visit, you know, and um, I'd say the CP
and I'm playing the Pretty Things at eight, So I
was probably heading towards the Yardbirds and Free and the

(46:06):
Jeff Bett Group and and all the and Jimmy Andrews,
you know, I mean Cheese and but all those acts,
you know, were they were more hardcore, but more importantly,
we were all inspired by African American music, blues and soul.
And the really fascinating part about the whole thing is
as I was singing as a kid, I was singing

(46:26):
in a blue style. I didn't learn that from anybody.
I didn't know about Muddy Water still as about fifteen.
You know, I knew about Hunk Williams, but that isn't
blue singing. But I sang in this and I phrased
in exactly the same way as I do now. I
didn't learn how to sing. I've always sounded like this,
and it's a mystery to me to know where that
comes from. But maybe it's just something you're born with.

(46:49):
And maybe I did hear something that was like just
it all came from black music. I don't know. Okay,
at what point did you learn how to play an instrument?
And then how did you end up on the base?

(47:11):
My brother had a telecaster, the first telecaster in the Northwest, really,
he got it on on payments, and I was playing gigs.
It was a really good guitar player, still is, and
I think I went to the base because, um, he
was the lead guitar player. I probably boten prayer that

(47:31):
would start about together, because when you sing with your brother,
you really do sing like you harmony and stuff. There's
a magical thing between brothers. But I started to fall
a lit with the best when I you knows Andy
Frazer and this Jack Bruce and there's Renis Garrison. There's

(47:52):
just fine. The bass is like there's an instrument. It's
that the cello. You know, I love the cello. I
love best notes. I like the way the best move
behind the chords. I mean on the Beatles first album,
you hear former Can't Go, How good a dass with another?
And he was boat, the boat, the boat. It's like

(48:14):
a passing note, you know, I was. I was maybe
fourteen when I heard that. Blew my mind how anybody
could be that clever to put a passing on in
a rock and roll So nobody's ever done that. And
it was just an elegant instrument, you know, and it
looked beautiful. dB three is still a thing of enormous

(48:38):
beauty to me. Or they done electoral along Home. They
were all beautiful instruments to base instruments. So when did
you start playing in bands and what did that look like? Well?
I sang in my brother's band when when he was
about seventeen and I was thirteen. I'd go around to
the rehearsals and seeing Walking the Dog, Blue Seal, Mabel,

(49:01):
those kind of songs. Um And then when I was
at art school. We needed a band to play the
Art school dance and I got my brother to get
his trauma and we just played for like three hours
blues and shuffles. That was my first time out. But
from that point on, towards the end of my state

(49:22):
at art school, I actually put it bound together. It
was my own and we were out playing dates. So
you know, I um man, when you get the bug,
whatever you call it, there's nothing going to stop you.
You know, I've slept on floors and I've been in
the back of a truck for like you know that was.

(49:43):
But you do it and you love it, and none
of its work. You're in the middle of a romantic thing.
It's what you want to do. Whether you are pay
to do it or it's not the matter, but you
certainly don't want to be anywhere else. It's all the matters,
you know. So how do you get from Lancaster to
London by bus? But being okay, keep going. It's two

(50:08):
hundred two miles. And the first time I joined the band,
there's a guy called Ali Alco. It was like a
really genius guitar player from the Northwest. He played reading
festival at a band called Universe. It was a big deal.
It wasn't signed, but he was a big deal. And
he saw me play and asked me for wanted to
go to London. And I actually got almost arrested about

(50:32):
six weeks before for a jewel robbery which I did
not do. But the police came to a sound check
and the Seahorse bar in more com tapped me on
the shoulder and then took me and my band down
the police station and grilled us for like two hours,
three hours, and they were they thought that I was

(50:53):
a bad lot. The band was dealing hash. Me and
this guy, Martin, the roadie was signed. This interrogation room
and Martin, they leave us addressing all these questions and
Martin pulls out a lumper hash and starts eating it.
And I thought, yeah, you know, I thought, well there

(51:13):
goes my life. You know. I think I'll you know,
I think I'll just get a job now or maybe
go to jail whatever. And that accuse me of stealing
Lonnie Donigan's drum cases when we played with Londie Donegan
about three months before, and uh, what would I be
doing with drum cases? Were the drummer was very light fingered,

(51:35):
so I would think all fingers would point to the drummer,
but I think he was pointing at me. So this
window opened for me to go to London with Ali
on the old car and live in West Hampstea with
the roadie and Ali in a room that was eight
by ten and live in London and it was spectacular.
You know, I had no money. I was signing on

(51:56):
the door, getting like four pounds a week living off
gun knows one. But it was fantastic London to the
early seven He's going to the Marquee Club, seeing these
bands that were just incredible, Stone the Crows and you know,
Humble Pie, Steve Mary. I saw Steve Mary had seen
at the London Palladium, you know, I mean just just

(52:18):
the whiless stuff. But um, that's how I got to London. Yeah,
long story. And were you playing in any band before
you join the Babies? Yeah? That was you know, that
was with England. It was called who were playing festivals
and the Marquee Club and eating of living out and uh,

(52:40):
I went to America to join the band in Cleveland
that look, we're looking for a bass player. That blew up.
I came back a little bit a little bit slower.
How does a band in Cleveland find you in London
and then you go? Well, the singer, the original singer
from England, a Scottish guy called Phil Ray Jesse. Ray

(53:00):
didn't work out with Ali, so he left and I
stayed with Ali, and he somehow got to Cleveland. I
was in a band, uh and they needed a bass player.
And I left all this because we were going nowhere,
went home and I couldn't get a job. I didn't

(53:22):
want a job. My dad wasn't pleased to see me
coming home. He was starting to to get a life,
you know, and I was just desperate. And this lesson
came from Cleveland, do you want to come and play bass?
So I I packed up the old kicked back and
somehow got a visa and I went to Cleveland for
like four months and we played all over some of

(53:45):
the small clubs there and trying to get a record
deal that fell through. And then I came back to
London and the baby started. Okay, had you been anywhere
other than you know, the UK? What was it like
being Cleveland? Of all? Remember that book um Diary of
a Rock and Roll Star by Ian Hunson. Of course, yeah,

(54:08):
fantastic book. On the bus home from London, I read
that book and it was just about Cleveland, about the
scene Um, about kid Leo, about MMS the bussard all
you know. I was like whoa. And the scene that
was happening in in Cleveland was a mirror of what

(54:29):
was happening in London. Really, so when it came through
that could go to Cleveland, it was like, wow, I'll
take a show. And there was a ballsy move, you know.
But I wasn't done anything to be in a boundary.
I just wanted to play. Okay, so that doesn't work out.
You come back to the UK. Uh. You know it's
talked about in the movie with Adrian Lilar, but a

(54:52):
little bit slower. How do you end up in the Babies? Well?
It was his mutual friend called Golden the Works Shaftbury Avenue,
a guitar village and he knew Mike Kobe. It was
the guitar player and Mike had a manage your gold
agent and they were looking for somebody they could write
songs and sing and play bass. Would I be interested

(55:16):
in taking a meeting? And would I you know? So
I went for point a beer on a Friday night,
I think at Sir Richard Steele's pub on have a
stock Hill and we talked about it, and you know,
it was like it could happen, you know. I mean,
if you can get a record deal, it's unbelievable. And
I went home and told my girlfriend. I said, look,

(55:38):
it's you know, painting the sky. It's just too much.
But Asian was very tenacious, you know, and he must
have seen something in me because it took about fifteen months,
but we eventually got a record deal and I wrote
songs and I sang them and I became person. You know.

(56:01):
So in those fifteen months, what were you doing and
what was the band doing to ultimately lead up to
this record deal. Well, we had a there was two
artists from the Royal College that owned a warehouse on
tool the Street, which is just south the Thames, and
Adrian knew him. There were eccentric guys that were great,
but he had this rehearsal space called Base in the

(56:24):
in the basement of this great, big tea warehouse, and
we used to go down there and audition people or
just you know, go to the pub next door and
have a beer and talk about it even more it
was all you know, it's like, um, we talked about
it more than we were it. You know. It was
like and I went home and wrote songs and then

(56:46):
I came back in and we'd work them all up.
We got Tony down the drummer. It was a hot
drummer in London, and then we had something. We had
a three piece bound, so we were in the studio
and cut demos. It was unbelievable, you know, it was
actually moving forward in a sort of like it was weaving,
you know, but it was moving forward, and eventually we

(57:09):
got we got signed through doing a video, which was
very unusual. And man, this is about fifteen lifetimes ago.
It really is. You know, it's hard to it's hard
to look back without being misty eyed. But it was.
It was rough. You know. We didn't have anybody to eat.
It was all handsome mouth. It was desperate, you know,

(57:31):
and London cold and rainy, no heating, no hot water.
You know, it was kind of you know, it was
it's chance in a million that it turned out like it.
Did you signed with Chrysalis? Did you just walk in
a room and sign or do you hire a lawyer
or how did that happen. Well, the band had a lawyer,

(57:53):
but the band was certainly provided the lawyer by Adrian.
I mean, I knew it going in. You know, if
you sign on for something, you can't start blaming people.
It was a raw deal for me and a good
deal for them. But I came as part of the package.
And but it was a huge signing and we got

(58:15):
some money and an allowance. You know, this is a
big deal too back then, and we got on with it.
We just I kept thinking, no matter what happens, if
you just keep you know, punch it, you're gonna You're
gonna come through somewhere. I just thought that was always
going to be the way out. It's just stay with it.

(58:36):
And it was fantastic, you know, coming to America St.
Louis recorded St. Louis and seeing the arch and the
whole thing, and and New York City in the seventies,
you know, wow, l A. And then going through Cleveland
where I just you know, cut my teeth and it
was all kind of meant to be. It was ridiculous

(58:57):
for me. Okay. So one of the big points in
the movie is you work with Bob Ezrin. It hasn't
done Pink Floyd the Wall at that point. But did
lou Reid's album, did all the Alice Cooper records, and
you talk, what a bad experience that is. He just
didn't get it. I mean you really, I don't want to, like,

(59:21):
you know, make a meal out of it, but it
was I don't I don't know how he missed it.
But in the Andy stuff coming to the studio, you know,
it was we're being produced by the engineer. It's kind
of unbelievable because I know he's got a great track record,
but my experience wasn't good, okay, and he's normally in Toronto.

(59:45):
Did he cut it in London or in Toronto? In Toronto?
We went all the way Toronto to the studio, which
costs a lot of money by time you're done, so
you talk about the record, you're not happy, but you
put it out anyway, So what to like starting with
a record you don't believe him? Well, it's the weirdest thing.

(01:00:08):
We took it back to England. Everybody here everything about it,
and I think the record company thought about it and
decided just to go. I mean in London, those posters
on the on the sides of busses. You know, we'd
be talking to somebody in the street like in Pickadilly
Circus and the bus that go by Young Ambazon you

(01:00:28):
get out of the subway, the underground that posts of
the battle that you know, and we were on the
major TV shows. It was like out of life of
its own and I suppose you wish that people are
gonna see it for more than it is, but I
think we would have made a much better record with
a different producer. Okay, Now, one other element in the

(01:00:50):
movie is you're in the UK. It appears that Adrian
Miller is going to fight with the label and he
instructs all of you to come back, but you don't, right,
So what was the real story there? Well, the real
story is that, I mean what was what what was
going on with him in the label on it was

(01:01:12):
being threatening. I think he based his life on being
one of the greatest twins, you know. It was one
of those kind of Eastern gangster kind of like alright,
my how you do it? Taken facing tif in night
you do it all say? You know, it was like
it was unnecessary, but that was part of his persona,
and I think he went to talk with the company

(01:01:33):
and wanted more money, and the company had already spent
an aminal leg on the album. And then how does
in America doing a twelve day promotional tour. We did
all the major TV shows, played live, let the press, uh,
record signings. We were in the middle of a whirlwind
promotional thing and it was going well. And we were

(01:01:56):
at the highest in Westwood in a suite and the
phone rang and it was Adrian and Uh, it was like,
pack your backs, you're coming home now. It was like,
what the fund are you talk to me like that?
For you know, it's you know, I'm the singer, I'm

(01:02:19):
the writer, and I've just spent two years living off
you know, French fries and milk, and you're telling me
I'm going to get out a plane because Shervan Arow
with the record company. Can't you sold it out? And
he was just that. He went straight to Adrian number two,
which is kind of like, you know, you'll do what

(01:02:40):
I'm gonna tell you to Samuel manager and we just
looked at each other. He got us all on the
phone one by one and said, you know, you've got
to come home now, and I just said, you know,
I mean you can make that what you want. But
if we had gone back, would have wound up without
two the street, we wouldn't even a clubhouse, would have

(01:03:02):
all disappeared back into our lives. It was over. It
was a hard decision to make on some level. And
I never felt right about saying no suation because he
was he was the guy without Asian. There had been
nothing but this part of him. There was always about
more money and we weren't getting any, you know, so

(01:03:24):
it was kind of like survival, you know, That's what
it was. It was survival. So what did he say
when you I mean, you do you ever basically say
you're fired? How did that go down? Well, you know,
we just the record company says us, what do you
want to do? You know we could we're in the
middle of this. Said well, we'll funk it. We're coming out.
That's it. What what what do we do? And they

(01:03:47):
put us in a house in Beverly Hills. Uh, and
Adrian rang up the FBI or the police or something.
But the FBI knocked on the door about four days later, um,
wondering if we've been kidnapped. I mean, it was just wild.

(01:04:07):
You know, you couldn't make this stuff up, and we
had Bill Graham and a least like really huge managers
coming to the house to see if we're consider being
managed by that and stuff. I mean, it was something
a matter of a sign before it exploded anyway. But
without Adrian, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I wouldn't

(01:04:28):
be where I am. There'd be no solo career, missing
you or anything. None, none of the big success of
the biggest success to the baby said, none of it
would happen. I just wish you would be more amicable,
you know, more more able to deal with other people
to get what he wantsed you know, how'd you end
up with Rob Stone? Um? He came by the house

(01:04:50):
with Elliott Roberts and Elliott made me laugh. I mean,
we had one guy show up. We looked like Perry
Como and he had this like sweater on the button
at the front and like a sports shirt and it's
really bad haircut, like a Republican haircut. And he said,

(01:05:14):
and I said, well, you know, who have you worked with?
You know, because I was pretty much the spokesman. This
guy said, A little band you might have heard of him,
the Beatles, And yeah, you know, so he was immediately
shown the door. You know, it was like, get the
fuck out, get away from me. But Elliott was funny

(01:05:34):
and very intelligent and Ron me and Ron just we
just became great friends. We've been friends, I suppose on
and off he is and uh, you know, and they
were very connected. They had Neil Young, and Neil Young
was to me like, uh he was my Dylan really

(01:05:55):
at that point, and Joni Mitchell and they had the
cars and I think they had Devo. But they were
players and they were respected and we hit the ground
running with them and we really had a ball. And
then there was an argument between them and the record
company of the money and that was the end of that.

(01:06:16):
So money kept looming. It's oh what happened between Lookout
management in the label and how did you end up
partying ways with them? Well, I think Elliott went then
and said, listen, we can't move forward this motion debt.
You know, let's just call the debt experience and let's

(01:06:38):
kick it off for the new you know, we're in now.
And they had a big rather record company and it's
just wouldn't work with them, and so that was it.
You had to get a new manager. Yeah, and who
was that manager? Well, that was Renaissance, manishment, that was Renaissance.
They had Ray Davis, they had the Kinks, and we

(01:07:03):
hit the road. I mean after the incident with the
guitar player, we got Jonathan Cannon and Ricky Phillips expanded
the band. Bab became the singer. Just decided to do
Baby Smart too really and went out and and toured relentlessly.
Great fund that he went nowhere. Okay, so the second album,
how do you end up working with ron nevison Um?

(01:07:25):
He was He just came along when we got to
l a We we were staying in l a Um
after the Adriaan thing and doing the odd TV show
and ron was a series of one of different producers
that we were introduced to. You know, he worked with

(01:07:46):
towns End. That was a big, big Townsend fan, and
you know he had an authentic rock track record. So
now you're in the studio for a second time. First time,
you have a bad experience. How is the experience overall?
And there's a big focus on the making of Isn't

(01:08:09):
It Time? Well, isn't It Time? As the song we
didn't write, it became apparent that we needed to hit single,
or the company thought we needed to hit single, and
Yon had this piano demo and it was we're all
kind of good at arrangement, but we told we tore
it to pieces and remade it as as what became

(01:08:31):
like a soul Brittish rock classic. But um runket engineer, well,
we had the big room at the record plant and
we were using a mobile unit out in Malibu in
a in a ranch house. Um it worked. You know,

(01:08:53):
it's still not what I saw as what we were,
but um it worked, and those records stand up today.
So how do you feel, and you know, you're a
bass player, you're a singer, you're a writer, how do
you feel about having to do someone else's song and
that becoming the hit. Well, it didn't please me. I

(01:09:14):
thought the songs were that I wrote were better. There
was a song on the third album, call You. It
was like people still shout for it now and I
wrote that one weekend, like and it's really well, I
look at it, I think how did I do that
at that age? But there every company hated it. You know,
you go up against these people that think you should

(01:09:34):
sound like something when you don't, and you're a drift.
You know, you're just fighting the record company all the time.
I don't know anybody that that hasn't had that problem.
So how does it end with the babies? Um? I
left Jonathan can get off the trub With Journey, we

(01:09:56):
hadn't had a hit record. Um the big record we
had we said first the third record, and we had
every summer I think of you and head first on
a M and F M simultaneously. Was as big as
we would ever get. It was fabulous, you know, and
we were playing to sell that place. It's so opening
for bigger bands and leaving everybody on their feet. We

(01:10:18):
were at the top of our game and the record
company just couldn't do it, and I just wore out
and I went back to England. Really okay before we
get there, you worked with Keith Olsen. Yeah, of course

(01:10:38):
is no longer with us, but had great success with
the Fleetwood back with Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. Yeah.
How was that experience relative to Ezra and Nevison, Well,
it was more me and potatoes, you know. I think
at that point we were used to playing live on

(01:10:58):
stage as a four or five span and nailing it.
There were no effects on it. It was just like
a really tough band and we wanted to sound like
that in the studio and he made that possible. You know,
he was passive, he didn't have a lot of input

(01:11:20):
on the music, but he was there, you know, through
the long hours of recording and getting it right. And
you know, he was a good guy. So when you
go back to England, you're worn out. What's your plan? Well,
I got married, I you know, and I lived in
the countryside in a tiny cottage and I had no

(01:11:42):
interest in coming back and doing it again. But it
worked out that I would. Well what a little bit slower.
The woman you married, how did you know her? Well,
she was my girlfriend when I was seventeen and we'd
come to America together with the babies. We moved to
California and then she went back. She didn't like it,

(01:12:04):
and you know, it was just a natural thing. I've
known it for ten years. Okay, and you're out of
the babies. Are you thinking, well, I'm gonna have children,
I'm gonna get a straight job. What's going through your mind? Yeah?
I had no idea. I had like six grand or
something in the bank and this little cottage and shared

(01:12:25):
a job at local paper, and I just didn't Honestly,
I never thought further ahead than two or a few months.
I don't know why, because you know, I'm cool enough
to look forward, and you don't want to provide for
a family whatever, But it I just don't know how
we survived it. But I got off at a record

(01:12:47):
contract with the m I and I went back and
I have missing you, and everything just blew up again.
Okay when you went back and got married, how much
were you and out and how much were you disillusioned? Oh?
I was through with it, you know, I was really
through the music business. I didn't ever want to sing again.

(01:13:10):
But I did go back, and I say I made
a solo record for Christmas. I moved to New York
City at a small tidy crash battle sent the Second Street,
made the Ignition record with Neil Geraldo and and then
I quit and went back to it. So, you know, Bob,
you should have done the documentary because you know this

(01:13:31):
is like, you know, this is in depth. Man, I'm
sure there's only you and I vaguely interested in the
past life. Well, you know this is I won't make
it about me it's about you. But as I say,
I resonate with a lot of what you're saying. I'm
not a successful musician, but the internalization and wanting to

(01:13:52):
be heard. But moving forward. Okay, you're when you were married,
you've never had children? Correct? No, know, is it something
that you thought you would have or you were kept
kicking it down the road, or is something I'm so
dedicated to my career I don't want any Yeah. I
think it was finding the right person at the right
time when things weren't falling apart. I mean, it's a

(01:14:15):
journeyman profession. You're flying by the seat of your pounts
all the time and you're on the move, and it's
a you know, I look back at it now, I go,
how the hell did I do that? Or go without
this and do that and make that happen? And you know,
I was in a relationship a few years ago with

(01:14:35):
a girl that had a kid, and you fall in
love with the kid, and we spent enough time around
the kid, it's just a natural thing to start suggesting stuff.
You know, you start becoming somebody's dad, and it's a
it's a nice experience, you know, Um, it will never
happen now, and I think long in the tooth now,

(01:14:56):
So it's kind of like I wouldn't want to leave
some kids alone. He was ten when I just put
my clocks, you know. Okay, let's go back to the
woman you marry that's also in the movie. How does
that end? It just endswered me being away so much
that we became strangers, you know, and she the same thing.

(01:15:21):
You start living different lives, you know, you really do.
When I also have to ask, because rock and roll,
were you being a bad boy. I was a young
man and I was an idiot, you know, but I think, um,
I think that the marriage was definitely on the rocks
long before we started full. I think we're just different people.

(01:15:42):
I mean, I'd taken it to America and she really
didn't like it, and what did you go home? So
I think I was going to have to spend a
lot more time in America. Let's do what I was doing,
and you just spend You're just on the move. You're
trying to make things work, send money home, the whole thing.
You know, I just naturally he falls upon. Okay, so

(01:16:04):
now you're back in the UK. You've made this album
that was not commercially successful with Neil Girraldo did you
know Neil Giraldo? How'd you hook up with him? No?
He he came forward at some point I was looking
for producer and said I'll do it, you know, and
we we had long conversations, went for a couple of
walks at a few drinks. I was working with Ivan

(01:16:27):
Kroll for Patty Smith's band and Iggy Pop and Frankie
l Rocco Um had a really crack New York band.
It was. It was a edge, edgey band, you know,
And I think, left to my own devices, I would
have gone off and works with Chris Spenning. Me and
Chris were talking about doing a band with Buster Jones.

(01:16:51):
And but Neil what a guy. I mean, he was
between me and the record company. It was all of
lost sort. So she me in the record company. I
hear they heared me. But we made a great record.
It was really a record that stands up, you know,
and both power. You know. If it was good. So

(01:17:13):
you go back to England, you think you're done, Yes,
what is the trigger to come back? Well? I met
this lawyer in tracks on seventy two Street before I quit,
and he kept in touch and when I went back

(01:17:33):
to England. But what's the name of that lawyer? Rick Smith? Okay?
And then there was another guy called Stephen was shot
and they became partless and they got me out of
my deal with Christmas. They got me out of my deal.
It costs an armon of leg that I got away,
and they got me signed to E M. I and
everything just changed. The sun burst through the sky, you know.

(01:17:56):
It was like they took me seriously amid the record
of White to make. I produced it and we had
number one single overnight. Okay, although you go into it,
tell us here the story of writing missing you. Well,
I was around at somebody's house. We'd we'd finished the record,

(01:18:18):
and I knew we hadn't got the single. We were
having a bone in the studio. We were writing songs
for me and the guitar player, Gary Myrick. We just storming. Wait, wait,
I have to ask you something. I was a huge
fan of that first record, She Talks in Stereo. I
bought it. Yeah, I went to see him at the Roxy.

(01:18:38):
How did you cook up with Gary Myrick through Gary
Gersh at E M I. I think I think Gary
Gersh was s tiking to Gary Myrick about doing a deal,
and when I was looking for guitar player, Gary said,
you know, he should meet Gary Merrick. It might be interesting.
You know, he's he's so out there, but he's great.
And I said, okay, sure. I mean Gary showed up

(01:19:00):
and we had the Trauma from Tom Petty's band sitting
and Flee was on base Uh and Gary and we
hit it off. It was just like magical. It was like,
let's go, and we've made the record in record time,
like in six weeks from meeting. Off the plane too mixing,

(01:19:25):
and I knew we hadn't got a single. I knew.
I knew enough about the business now it worked to
know that come and go so fast. You get a
great review in Rolling Stone and then people go back
to what they were doing. And I wanted a hit single.
And I was working on this song with this guy
in his studio and we've been there a couple of

(01:19:47):
days while they were mixing, and he hadn't put any
colde on the tape. So he's hitting play and forward
and reverse and play, and he couldn't find the song
worked on the night before and he hit the playboaton
at the wrong time, and this thing had been working
on like an eight note field with terrible phony drums

(01:20:11):
and some good guitar plan but it was the backing
track for What's a Nice to Be Missing You? And
I said, let me have a crack at that. Just
let me have a go. You know, I'm always gamed
to do that kind of thing. I was good at
that in the Babies, you know, I could make stuff
upon the mic, and I got it. We ran through

(01:20:31):
it once, he didn't record it, and then he read
He recorded the second one, and I got the whole
first verse, and of course, you know, I mean every
road that I've been ever been on led me to
that moment, and I knew it was number one. And

(01:20:53):
that was my next question. People don't understand when you
do something that's on the leven you oh, you know exactly.
You touch something like a microphone in its life, and
you got like this, you know, it's like getting a shot.
And I hadn't even it was like sleepwalking. I've used
every time I Think of You as the first line

(01:21:15):
because it was a baby sun every time I think
of you, And so I had no idea what I
was going to sing, and so I sang that first
line and the rest of it just happened. I always
catch my breath and I'm still standing here in your
miles away, and I'm wondering why you left. And there's
a storm that's racing through my frozen heart tonight. You've

(01:21:36):
missing you at all since you've been going away in
one piece. And yeah, I always could do that. Most
of my lyrics come from that place. Have just close
your eyes, step forward, don't overthink, just open up. You
can't count on it. It's a very feminine thing. If

(01:21:56):
you go there too often, or you disrespect and thank god,
I'll take care of that tomorrow, it goes away, it
ignores you. And if you save it for the right moments,
it's almost like having a a secret lover. Is somebody
that's just waiting for you. You know. It's intense, But

(01:22:18):
I'm sure that something is brilliant as fast Car by
Tracy Chapman. I'm sure she sat down. She's going doom
doing doom ding. You've been a fast is it faster?
You can find one? You know. I'm sure that all
the really beautiful songs in the world that are really
heartbreak come from that kind of and and the really

(01:22:39):
tremendous rock and our songs. You know, watching Paul McCartney
right get Back in the in the recent mood, you
know you can see him, you can seem like zoning out.
The other two are looking at him. What was he doing?
And the next thing, you know, get Back evolves out
of like two courts, two courts. It's magical. Okay, you

(01:23:01):
write the song, you know you have something. Are you
worried about nailing it in the recording? Uh? I never
worry about that. That would be I'd be making that out.
I really am in controlling the steet, you know, I
really I know when it's not working, I don't know

(01:23:23):
what it is. Um you know, I mean I was
pushing myself so hard. Does it say one that rightcord?
I would prob these same things twenty times. Oh so
it was what I wanted it to be. So it's
a completely different era. You have a new label, it's
a new era MTV. You have a song that is

(01:23:46):
obvious smash. Does everybody say get let's get behind this,
let's make a video, or do they put the record
out and say, well let's see what happens. Oh no,
Jim Marsa Jim Marsa was the head of the company.
Gary Gersh was the n R guy, and French Shi
Gautier the late French shiputy. It was the art department.

(01:24:08):
They were they knew what they've got. I think it
was a lot of good will towards me at that point.
I think people would watch Christalists and they're like, oh man,
And then with a solo album, I think there was
a certain empathy, you know, people want to see me succeed.
What about the video, Well, I used the same guy

(01:24:29):
that I used for Change, and I was very happy
with that video, so I suggested him and he came
along and made a great, great video. The to tell
you about am I and Gary Gersh, I mean, I
was in New York City mixing the record, staying at
the Mareflower, and we went to see a David Bailey exhibition, me,

(01:24:50):
Stephen Michelle and Gary Gersh. David Bailey is like the
premier photographer of the sixties, you know, and this is
a crazy wins Paul mcconde and meet Chuck the Shrimp,
you know, you know, it's just fabulous stuff. And I
turned around to Gary and said you should do the
album cover. The next thing. I know, I'm in the

(01:25:11):
Concorde flying to London to work with David Bailey. I mean,
that's that's what my life was like. I mean, you
think you think this is like I mean, never, Sary,
you asked me a question. I can give you like
four stories that led to that. You know the answer.
But you know, hey, you know, Gary, you should do
the album cover Concorde, here we go, you know, and

(01:25:35):
working with David Bailey, he shot the album cover. I
mean's just this times, just things cover less they do
sometimes the only energy in the world that's that you've
been looking for to to lock together like a wooden puzzle,
you know, and it just clicks and it did. What

(01:25:55):
was it like seeing yourself on TV ad infinitum um. Well,
it became a bit much because you know, I think
Missing You was like number one on MTV for like
fifteen weeks, and there's a point where you want to say,
that's really great, thank you, you know. And I was
still a bit shy about it. I couldn't do out

(01:26:16):
in New York, whereas before I could go out, but
now when I went in a bar would put Missing
You on the tube box and started buying many shrinks
and stuff. It was just different and I didn't didn't
really know how to deal with it at first. It
wasn't that comfortable because it was really a step forward
from being famous to really famous. You know, a different world.

(01:26:38):
And the reason I love New York is that just
disappearance the ground. So it's a different world for me.
And how much pressure was there on the follow up album?
No question? He offered me a large amount of money,
which I needed better. I hadn't go any money. Um

(01:26:59):
as seen how someone it's to bias. It just gives
a record and I just looked at my cattle and
looked what I've got, went to work with Ivan, banged
up some songs and made Damascus Smiles album. It's a
different album completely. There's there's like four or five extremely
strong songs on that one. But I wasn't shooting to

(01:27:19):
replicate successive Missy. That would have been in basilic, you know,
it would have been just stupid. It's like, write something
that sounds like missing. It wasn't gonna happen. Once you
reach that pinnacle, to what degree are you striving to
replicate the success And to what degree you're disappointed when
you don't reach the holy grail once again. Well, it

(01:27:42):
didn't bother me. I honestly thought if I could be
and it's in the documentary, but I meant to, if
I could establish myself as a singer, and right then
I could make any kind of recordsitant to make every
other year. I wasn't going to be on the Merry
go round. I could write my own ticket. There always
be money coming in. It wasn't going to be do

(01:28:03):
or die. It was just art, you know. I didn't
see any reason to be Madonna, you know, I mean,
that's that's a that's a whole different thing. Man. That's
like that's a day job in itself. And you specifically
said that's not me. Well, yeah, no, I honestly did.
I want you to just make great records and have

(01:28:25):
a follow me. I mean, what else is there? I mean,
after a couple of years of being top of the pops,
if you follow that path, you usually finished. But if
you do the Richard Thompson thing or whatever, it is,
like it sounds and so well, you know, you try,
and you know, give the best you've got for the
period you're in, but it's it's if you can make

(01:28:46):
it last for five years. You've done something almost impossible.
You know, I'm here after forty years. It isn't chance,
you know, so I know chance to Emford's old is
publishing your interest in missing you go with it or
you still have I got it back in last year.

(01:29:07):
I finally got the publishing back on Missing You last year.
So now it's it's you know, it's it's really worth
something there and you plan to hold on to it.
Or if someone made as if somebody comes out that
would work in obviously twenty million for my publishing. I
would certainly put down my coffee cup and and turn

(01:29:28):
around and talk to him, you know, I certainly would,
And at this point in my life that would just
give me complete freedoms do anything. I won't really Okay.
And so you're making these records with E M I America.
And one other theme is on the in the movie

(01:29:50):
is whenever you really are an inch away you have
great product, something happens with the record company. So what
happened with E M I? And then certainly a mob
go there after that field? So tell us about those situations.
E M I. I had this record call will always returned.
We have a number one single in our and our

(01:30:11):
records and whatever it is radio and record Yeah, yeah,
in the older and I went to Germany. Were run
by Robert Kardashian. No, yes, the big Kig right special
k but yeah, and I went to Germany to do
some TV to promote the single. I came back and

(01:30:32):
the record had gone from number one to like And
what had happened is the E M I man in
My America and overnight become in my Manhattan. And they
changed the head of the company, that changed the offices everything,
and it was really great. I have nothing. Joe Smith

(01:30:53):
came in. He was great. He tried to salvage everything.
But the team gets broken up and you can't blame
on anybody. It just is how business goes. And they
tried everything that made the right videos and I got
truly grain to manage for me and it was like
here we go, but he couldn't. You can't selve me
something like that. It's a train wreck. I mean, even

(01:31:14):
to get involved this heroic and I E M. I
were nothing but great with me. They were just stupendous.
The new regime was cool. Everything was cool. They were
nice people. But yeah, sometimes it happens. You know, you
might go, I had a hit single. I had a
song in the true Romance movie Quentin Tarantino. Uh Tony

(01:31:37):
Scott shot the video filmmaker and Monument Valley, and that
was really my best work, best fan I've ever been in,
best songs, the whole thing, and a month out, imago folds.
It just happens. All this stuff just happens. You can't
take it personally. A couple of years later, I bought

(01:31:59):
the record and re released it, so I own it
and so I don't have to watch the record just
get cooked in weeds. I can still promote that record,
and I'm proud of that record. Well, you're very upbeating
philosophical about all this in the movie, you don't seem

(01:32:20):
quite as settled. What do you want snow? That was
the pandemic? How about anti antidepressants therapy? And they come
in no no alcohol, boy, it's it's I think it's
it's the pandemic. You know, when when you have that
much time to think and everything's going wrong, I'm sure
it's gonna have a shared let's do it. But you

(01:32:44):
get pragmatic when you go. You know, if you've been
around the block a few times. You learned to live
with the stuff that happens. So how does that English
come to be? Well? I was. I went to Epic

(01:33:04):
to get a record deal, and the A and R
guy I didn't like my songs and I really wanted
to be on Epic. And Trudy Green, my manager, would
have liked me to be there. She was the biggest
best brutalist in the classiest record level. And me and
Trudy left the me scene and I was going like,

(01:33:24):
I can't work with that guy. You know, he doesn't
even like me. And I remember walking down Madison Avenue
and saying to Trudy, I'll start a band. I'll start
a band and we'll we'll be on Epic, but I'll
be the singer in the band. Was just starting the
Richard Griffith R. Yeah, yeah, yes, it was. You said

(01:33:47):
you're gonna start a band. Yeah. I went all of them.
I went to England looking at guitar players. I was
going to track down Johnny Mark to see if you
knew anybody, and none of that happened. I didn't do
any of it night In the end, I I want
to work with Jonathan Kane Neil Sean, Ricky Phillips, and
dinkashanovo Um. It's said about five months to arrive at

(01:34:08):
that point or four months, and from that point on
he just took off. Well, you had a history with
Jonathan Kane. How did you get Neil Shaan involved through
Jonathan Kane? And Neil was just like, Journey is not happening.
I'm in Well yeah, I mean, you know, I mean
I think they always had problems there. They're always seems

(01:34:29):
to be very political, and nothing was happening with them.
And Neil just wants to play, you know, he just
wants to plug in and play. So now you go
back with the band and what is what do they say? Yeah?
I knew it, you know, you walk in with those

(01:34:50):
guys and yeah, you know, guy, I'm gonna like to
STWN And it was like, we love it, We'll sign it.
He's a very large check, you know, and can we
have your publishing? And you know, how are you doing?
Can we have dinners tonight? You know, it's just like
it's certainly in a different level. And I got a
huge publishing advance from Sony and everything was back on track,

(01:35:15):
you know, And how did you end up doing the
Diane Warrens song. Well, we've done the whole album and
the this is a great story and the A and
our guy left us alone. Who is they say in
our person? It was done Grayson, Okay, yeah with us,
so you can sell I don't want to, you know,
it's a nice guy. And and I went to the

(01:35:37):
ban and said, listen, Don's been really great. You know,
he staid out the way most of the time, and
he's he's trying to be as flying on the wall
as possible. And he asked his song, and I know, Diane,
it would be great if you just tried the song,
you know, at least you know, it would be just good.
And he said okay, and so it went in at

(01:35:58):
the eleventh thound. Could when I see you smile just
to sort of show the company that we were capable
of working with them when we liked doing and everything
was cool. And we just looked at each other like,
oh no, you know, it's at it. And the big
question was then at Frontline h K Management, was do

(01:36:20):
we not do this song um or do we have
a number one single? It was like that that awful
folk in the road, you know, Okay, Well, it ends
up being a huge hit. Yeah, but then the band implodes.
Why does the band implode? Well, I think it's a
lot of tension, a lot of egos, a lot of um,

(01:36:41):
too much business not of music, you know, and when
the band falls apart, you say another day in music
business or you're pretty disillusioned depressed about I went back
to my house in pound Ridge and that was the end.
I really didn't want to do anything else or ever
again with the music. You know, I had enough money

(01:37:02):
coming in at a lovely house in a wood and uh,
it was just like I just didn't care. It wasn't like,
you know, it's sacrifice. It was like I just want
to get out. And then I got, after about a
year and a half, Agot offer to deal with him
algo and I did all these songs, you know. So
I went back in to make one lass solo record

(01:37:24):
about New York City, and like I said before, Temple
Bar was toldly my best record. Okay, but then the
being the label blows up. Yeah, so how do you
get pulled back in one more time? Well, ron Stone,
ron Stone, I I see making Temple Bar, it was
like the watershed moment. I went back to be a writer.

(01:37:47):
The slightly corporate element of bad English and nauseate me.
But I was I didn't want to do with myself,
and I thought I had to redeemed myself. That's the truth.
And I saw. I wrote the record the Downtown out
More in God's Shadow, Glittering Price. This this was like
the best I ever got, and it reawaked my interest

(01:38:10):
in writing. I couldn't stop. I felt like I'd become
an artist together, and uh, I wrote a record. I
drove across America when the record company went down. I
went to New Orleans. I drove in a cheap Cherokee
down to New Orleans, sent up through Kentucky to Ohio,

(01:38:32):
and then east to New York City back home. But
I wrote most of that album When You Were Mine
on that trip. And I've fallen in love with country
music again, as with Temple Buds, a slight country influence,
baritone guitars and stuff. I'm so lons I could tries

(01:38:53):
on that, but on When You Were Mine, it's really
a bluesia, more folky kind of approach. And uh, you know,
there's no choice. You have to make this, these these albums.
It's not like a great. You know, it's not biblical,
it's what I do. It's just making music. So how

(01:39:14):
do you end up getting hooked up with Alison Krause
which is in the movie but We Got You Now? Well? I, Um,
I was in Nashville, I was writing songs. I was
doing a Goodest It's album and I was re recording
some songs and I got to Missing You and I thought, well,
I can't do anything else with Missing You that I
haven't been already. And I thought, well, I'll do with
youuet who would I like to sing with? And I

(01:39:34):
was watching the American Music Channel and Alliston was on
that with New Favorite when I became aware of them
and my manager wearing her manager and said, John would
like you to sing I Missing You? And she said yes,
Well she said yes. The record was very successful in

(01:39:57):
the country world. But you continue to have a connection
with Allison Ryan. Yeah, we're friends and um yeah, I
mean we did another done limp so um laid down
beside me and I was living in Nashville. You know
we were close. Was it ever a romance? Um? You

(01:40:20):
know that would be nice, okay? And then another big
thing in the movies, you go out with Ringo. What
you said, one and done. Now, Ringo historically goes out
with different people. Oh, the band is somewhat solidified in
the last couple of years. So you got to play

(01:40:42):
with Ringo and meet Ringo, which of course is amazing.
But in the everyday experience of doing it, how did
you feel? Well? It was tough. You know, it's extremely
competitive with the All Stars. Everybody's trying to do the
right thing and shine, I'm just trying to play bassis.
Shut up. I would have just played bass and not
some if I could have, because if you look across

(01:41:04):
the station there he is a strangoes stuff, you know.
And it was stressful, you know. I mean, yeah, I
mean I'm pretty I played through a high standard. But
he played with Paul McCarthy and so I had to
go back to playing the base and nothing but respect.

(01:41:24):
I mean, how could you have anything? But I was nervous,
you know, But it was it was it was very demanding.
It was really demanding. It. I think that the fact
that there was Paul Carrock, Sheilary, Colin Hay, there's a
lot of very famous individuals on stage, and I think

(01:41:45):
we go there first to play with more musical kind
of situations. That's what I think. And when did you
realize you didn't want to do it again? What the ring?
Yeah they won't. Well that's why I'm asking. So when
I went through your head, you showed up a rehearsal

(01:42:06):
and he said, what the fund did I sign up for? Yeah? Yeah,
you know it's tough. It's a tough gig. Everybody's like
joking and everybody's like, you know, I didn't do that.
It's like getting the funk out, you know, where I
would stop a song and Sam, I, it's just the
right note, you know? Am I playing the right note?
Here in the bottom is this is this isn't the

(01:42:27):
right key. People just walk away stuff, And I'm going,
like Jesus Christ, can we just sit down and him
through this stuff? But there's the thing about it being
um low impact. I think there's the thing where you're
supposed to show up and play made people smile, shakegounds
and walk off, you know. But I think he's he's
got a really good cool band now and uh we

(01:42:48):
was on a bit of a perfectionist. I would like
to think that I'm a perfectionist in that situation. Okay,
going back to the songwriting. You started out doing it yourself,
but if you look at your credits, there's a lot
of co writes. Was that something you were pushed into?
Is something you don't? You know? I found myself. I

(01:43:10):
can write by myself standing on my head, but I
don't really do a good trouble of it. I think that,
uh is it a d D when you can't concentrate?
What is what they call a d h D? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
I think I've got that. If I have somebody in
front of me and the only play like two chords,
and I take everything from that point and run with it,

(01:43:33):
do the lyric can write the rest of the song
of the mountain and the whole thing. As long as
I have somebody in front of me, I'll write a song.
It's either that are extreme lessons, you know, and it
could be that too, But I need a sounding board.
I need someone to bounce off to entertain. Maybe it's
a show off too, I don't know. But if somebody

(01:43:56):
plays me a minor chord and I play something in
the base, that isn't necessarily what you would think was
going to happen between the minor code and the Madge goode.
I'll suddenly have a song, but I won't get that
input without the guy playing the minor chord. So it
would much preferred seven days a week to write a

(01:44:16):
song with somebody. Me and Glenn Burnar toll to till
and write stuff that makes me wonder how we did it.
But it's like completely spontaneous, and I am best at
being spontaneous. I keep a lot of notebooks, write down
phrases all the time. If I'm reading a book, I
see a passage go by and go that's great. How

(01:44:38):
did you think you know? I'm very about words. I
love them. But when I'm singing and when I'm writing songs,
a lot of it just happens to the back of
my mind. I must have made a mental note, or
I must have keyed into some image that would go
over another image. But you don't know that you start singing.

(01:44:59):
But I get the melody the words at the same time,
and I have no idea how I do it. I
can't take any credit for anything I've done there was
any good, because I'm just making it up as I
go along. I might take it home and finish it
and polish it. I mean, sometimes the story songs like
Bluebird Cafe or Masterpiece of Loneliness. They have real themes.

(01:45:23):
And I don't know what's good and what's not anymore
unless I believe it. And if I believe it, it's good.
If I don't believe it, it's ships. Well, someone like
Burton Dick, who played with sticks but lives in New Jersey.
How do you hook up with all these people you
meet Bernick? I need Bernick for I needed a guitar

(01:45:45):
player when I was in New York and Uh, he'd
been a fan that he'd actually lived next to us
me in l A when I was staying with the
babies and never said alone. But we got introduced. There's
a great guy, and we started writing songs and we
wrote Downtown, which is probably one of the most penultimate songs.

(01:46:06):
It was just like Downtown. We wrote that on a
beat offul Steinway at Sony. He had cigarette burns on
it and he's missing. It's all attitude. And I was
trying to write a song for true romance. I wrote
a song with another guy, um Mark Spiral, called in
Dreams to Go in the movie, but it was true

(01:46:26):
romance the song and there's this beautiful irish, wasted lonesome
East Coast, New York Manhattan thing on this Stein Way.
It's all otta tune and Glenn's playing these chords and
I would just jump up and um the engineer with hippocorde,

(01:46:49):
that's sing the first line, and then he'd keep playing
the songs about how about you know the most and
then I would just shoot out of my seat again.
You you can find me in the temple ball and
and it's not making a cheeksil really. Sometimes it doesn't
come out in one piece, it's just lines. But this

(01:47:11):
thing comes out of the mist and I have no idea.
There's no cleverness to it, there's no guile, there's no talent.
It's just like completely it just comes out of nowhere.
But at the same time you're editing, it's such a clear,

(01:47:33):
focused way. I mean, I really knew where that song
was going. And it's about scoring trunks, you know, and
people think it's about all this sort of stuff, but
it's a it's a very dark song. But you don't
know what you've got, so you finished it, okay. So
the movie has a lot of live shots from the

(01:47:53):
present day. How long is this band been together? How
did you find them because you mentioned earlier they all
live in different locations. And then sometimes it's acoustic and
sometimes it's elected. So tell me about all that. Well,
I met Tim Hogan, the best player in Carmines Italian
restaurant fifteen years ago. Okay, on Santa Monica Boulevard. Yeah,

(01:48:18):
well no, no, no, no, no no no, in Times Square,
oh that car yeah alright, hey, more than one common
and uh yeah, And he offered me his coat. He
was snowing outside and he said, to my coat, hadn't
got a cold. And we became friends, and he became
the best player. Uh, and became part of the organization

(01:48:42):
and just to stellar human being. And then Mark was
shouted was working in a guitar shot as a friend
of Tim's, and we took Mark on. We couldn't get
a steady guitar players, so I said, okay, let's you know,
we have to play these shows. Let's give it all
to Markam Mark. It's given a huge amount big shoes

(01:49:05):
to step into. It took him a while, but he
arrived um in spades. You know, he's a tremendous guzapa
and and he's he's gone from being a guy that
works in the guitar shot to a tremendous guitar player.
And Alan Chiles was in the no Brakes dound that

(01:49:26):
you see um at the beginning of the documentary, a
young Alan childs with Karmene Rojas and Elsli, Tommy Mandel.
They were all in the North Breaks. But I met
Alan in Las Vegas a couple of years ago. He said,
if you ever need a drummer, called me, and I
called it. So that's it. And some of the days

(01:49:46):
we do, like in theisis like storytellers and it's two acoustics,
electric bass and drums, and you stop the show and
you do requests, so you talk to the audience. You
play these keys again, Downtown, Saint Patrick's Day, Masterpiece of Loneliness,
Bluebird Cafe, in God's Shadow, in Dreams Missing You. It'sn't

(01:50:12):
it's good, you know, I mean the songs that you
can really I know, it's not even singing. You sort
of like sharing a story and people are like, you know,
looking at you. Let they're listening to a story. And
then the other version of the band, this would come
out two fisted, all electric, and it's it's an entirely

(01:50:33):
different anymore. But we do stop in the middle and
do Bluebird Cafe Acoustic no matter where we are. If
they're gonna throw a ship, they can throw it. But
we've tried that this year on to about seven thousand
people at night and you could hear a pin drop,

(01:50:55):
you know. That's that's why how I get out of bed.
That's because that isn't synthesizers and bullshit and big drums
and it's like it's a it's a simple acoustic guitar
and vocal. And if you can get seven eight thousand
people to go completely quiet and listen to that, then
you're in the right place at the right time, you know.

(01:51:18):
And do you have a manager? You do it all yourself. No,
me and Tim we have if work comes to me,
have an Asian and they ring up and sim says johnah,
go and play this gig for this much. We can
do that. We can do this gig the next time
and say yeah, oh no, can we go and do it?
Who's the agent um Blue Raven? With Blue Raven at

(01:51:43):
the moment? So do you ever go to do you
ever go to them and say, well, you know, I
want to work from April through June, just book something now,
it's not like that, you know, you you you can
get to the point where you're just playing ridiculous places.
You know, we want to keep it sort of classy.
Want to play thesis and interesting listening rooms and sheds.

(01:52:07):
You know, spent enough time playing out the way places.
I mean, I want to play like the City Winery
kind of thing that those kind of gigs are great,
But they know they can't just go out there and say, okay,
we've got to book it right through tune in July
and August. You know, it doesn't work like that. And
you talked about playing the seven thousand people. How many

(01:52:30):
to the time do you go out alone? Where do
you go out in the package? Um, well that was
the package. That's Vix Strength fielding men at work. But
we do a lot of gigs with Neil Gerraldo on
pap bennettson UM and then we play like thousands seat
headline maybe more. Uh, you know, it's it's not one

(01:52:52):
thing all the time. You can maybe do four gigs
being the opening act for a band that's really establishing
your plans to Seventh Town some people, and then you
can go on the next night and play a headliner. Uh,
and your pens a fift hundred people and maybe on
the third night there's a six hundred listening room. It's

(01:53:13):
like an art sense. So we can do the unflipped
thing and you love all that and then you go
back to the opening for somebody or whatever. You put
it together. But the idea is to play the best
places possible and bring it. You know, if you're playing
so out the word places of God for a bit
of club, a low club, you know, it's like, man,

(01:53:34):
you're supposed to bring it, and you know those kind
of places you don't want to go there. So do
you have enough money saved and income that theoretically you
can stop working or you're working to live? Oh? No,
I've got money in the bank. And like I said,
I own my own place at publishing and we're working,

(01:53:57):
and I own most of cattle. Like you know, it
wasn't almost like that. I came back up from really
being kicked out of the music business. I was. I
was just stubborn. I wasn't going to go down and
stay down, my dad. I'm always to write songs to

(01:54:18):
sing and here I am. Are you gonna die on
stage or at some point, I hope no. People keep
saying there's a great line in Steve Elle's song um
fort Worth Blues, and he says, you always said the
highway was your home, but we both know that that
ain't true. That's a wonderful couple of you know, it's

(01:54:41):
just really there are romance of going kicking the bucket
on the road to me is bullshit. You know, you
want to be somewhere where you're really happy and look
back at your life and said, okay, so what would
it take for you to stop? I'll let you know.
I think there's a moment, honestly where you put your

(01:55:03):
hand up and said, thank you, it's been great tonight,
and you walk off and yes you might change your clothes.
You walk out, it's the parking lot, get in the van,
and in your heart you know that's your last show,
and I don't want to be around you know. I mean,
you see some of these pants. You know there's a

(01:55:26):
same amount of sex in votes in rock and roll,
and the only you get. I mean, it's nice, you know,
to see all the people play, But I think that's
the point where you know you just should make yourself scarce.
There's a lot of people went to get on stage.
So the movie opens on December six. Where can people
see it? I don't know. Like I said before, I

(01:55:50):
had absolutely nothing to do with it. I did the interviews,
I knew the guy that brew all together, but I
I've had no input. Somebody told me that the different
cable's stations it's gonna be on, but I didn't make
a note of it. Okay, And uh, there's certainly a
website the hard Way the movie something very similar to that.

(01:56:12):
If you google John Waite in the hard Way, you'll
certainly come right up. And I think it's gonna be
on demand on multiple platforms. And as I say, the
movie is excellent, not because I'm blowing smoke, but otherwise
I wouldn't be talking to you. And it's intriguing. One
is with whether one is a fan or not. But

(01:56:32):
in the back of your mind, do you think that
this will be a boost for your career? Yeah? I
think Like I said before, and you called it, how
do you over think was it? How do you say? Uh,
what you wrote about it and what you wrote about
constant so mar of the entertainment business and people getting

(01:56:55):
ahead and the ephemeral thing that comes. You know, I
couldn't have agreed with you more. If I was better
with words, I would write all that down aside roads,
I thought it was quite brilliant. And I'm not blowing
smoky but but I thought, honestly, that's how I see it.
And I've always had a pretty good fan base. I've
just been through I mean the shadows, you know. But

(01:57:17):
I mean, I'm working a lot, and every time we
show up, it's like, you know, it's great, but I
suppose it will um, I don't know, you know, I
don't worry about anything like that, Bob, I really don't.
I just sort of like get up, have a goot
of coffee and start the day. I don't plan ahead,

(01:57:38):
and I saraily don't plan ahead moored than six months.
I have to a big point at the beginning of
the movie is how difficult you are and it has
to be your way and it doesn't uh bode well
for relationships with our business relationships. I'm talking to you now. Oh,

(01:58:00):
I don't hear any of that. So he said, we're
not making We're not making art, you know. I mean,
if if you were producing me and I had this
song and I had this music in my head and
I could hear this sound that I wanted, and I
knew where the lyrics should go. And you're saying a hi, John,

(01:58:20):
nobody uses that word. Use something else. They go like, no,
it's a beautiful work. You got, like, oh, come on, now,
you know I go no, and then you know things
go to the next level. But but that's you know,
I don't believe in any of that. I think, you know,
when you produce a record, everything live and let the
artist have his head. If he's worth going in the studio,

(01:58:41):
he's going to deliver the goods. But I don't want
to be the flavor of the week or or like
somebody suggests I do a certain kind of song because
it's like happening now and the kids dig it. I mean,
I'm not interested. I'm just not And yeah, if that
makes me difficult, and that's what I am, Well, you're
having how thin. Seeing the movie, it sounded also the

(01:59:04):
way it was portrayed that part of your personality makes
just everyday relationships difficult. I mean, are you the type
of person who goes and calls friends, hangs with friends,
or you're basically in your own head until you go
out to work. Yeah, um, I think I'm pretty hot. Surrage.
Sometimes there's a lot going on. I wish there wasn't,

(01:59:25):
but I tend to be You know, half of my
mind is writing a song all the time, always thinking
about a line from a book, Oh, cowboy music, you know,
and whatever it is. But half of me is always
away elsewhere. You know you're happy? Are you happy the

(01:59:48):
way that things are? And you'll continue to do your
gig until you have that moment referenced earlier or in
the back of your mind. Is there one big goal
or achievement that you still or a bar that you
want to reach. I've been doing it all my life.
I honestly feel like I've been a success at every
step in my life, even if people were not there

(02:00:10):
to witness it. Oh, he didn't sell a million records,
bout ten thousand records. I've always done what I wanted.
That's been a success. It really is. I know it
sounds like a speech, but I've been about the great
luxury of loving what I do. Oh my life, and
you can't buy that. And I've had a wonderful life.

(02:00:34):
I haven't missed the bills I once, so I believe
in what I've done all my life. I'm very, very lucky. Well,
it's been wonderful talking to you. It's you know, you're
very forthcoming and honest. You don't hold back. You can
feel the integrity and the motion coming through. So John,
I want to thank you so much for taking the time.

(02:00:54):
Thank you, Bob. It's um, it's it's um. Since you
reviewed the documentary, UM, we've had like suonomi of interest
because you have such credibility. But uh, doing the interview
and reading your review, UM, I think we're pretty much
alike mind and it's a pleasure for me to talk

(02:01:16):
to you too. Well, I'm smiling and my shinees makes
it hard to uh come back. But thank you so
much for that. God bless you. Thanks for everyone. Until
next time. This is Bob left Steps