Paul Anka

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Let's That's Podcasting. My
yesterday is being running over Haul anch Haul. Good dab
you on the podcast, Bob. It's great to be on
the podcast. I've been looking forward to this. Okay, you
have a new album Making Memories just came out. What
motivates you to make an album at this lead date?

(00:32):
Pretty much the same when I was a kid, when
I had to do three of them. Because I love writing.
I love what I'm doing. I never stopped. I don't
have a rear view mirror when I keep writing as
I've been doing, I want to get it out there.
Certainly times are not what they used to be, but
you know, with COVID, i'm locked up. The reality sets

(00:53):
in that what are you gonna do with yourself? So
now you're gifted with writing, and you say, I'm gonna
sit down and write. It's what I love to do.
So you you're right. And then when you're done with
about thirty songs, you say, well, I like what I'm hearing,
Let's make some choices and let's just get it out there.
So it's an ongoing process, Bob. For me, I never
stopped writing, and as age means nothing to me. You know,

(01:14):
they throw dirt on you if you stand still. I'm
just doing what I do. I'll have a tour going out.
But the album was very important this year, and we're
producing a documentary. We're starting on that in a couple
of months. Okay, need Let's just say that the business
is completely different from when you started in its sixty
plus years ago, and in addition, in the last twenty years,

(01:36):
it's changed for everybody. So first you you write the songs.
Who paid to make the record? Well, I paid for
most of it because I really didn't have an outlet yet.
Then I have a deal with primary Wave, primary Wave
and my partners in publishing, copyrights, etcetera. And I said,

(01:57):
let me get him the first crack. So I called
Larry Mistell. Love Larry. He's doing a great job over
there with his team, and I said, here's what I got.
You know, I had my buddy Hervey's off. We talked
about it, and we talked about where we'd want to
go with it, and I said, let's go to Larry.
You know he's in that business. We went, They loved
what they heard, gave me some money back, not all

(02:18):
of it such as the record business, and that was that.
How much money did it cost to make the record?
Cost me about a hundred dollars Okay, so this is
an old school budget. This is not done on the cheap.
So you write the songs, how do you then go
about actually making the record, especially during COVID, Well, the

(02:40):
process with the new technology is, you know, kind of
the same, and that the technology dictates. You know, I'll
do most of it in my studio here at the house.
I'll ship some of the files over to guitar players
and drummers. The big question was what do we do
when we want strings and orchestra, et cetera. We find

(03:00):
out that in Budapest, Hungry, they have a symphonic orchestra
that meets five times a week and if you want
music done, you just plug it in and they'll give
you what you want from Budapest. So we shipped all
the arrangements over. We had great talk with the conductor.
They did everything from Hungary. Wow, that's really amazing. Were

(03:22):
you supervising everything or did you have a producer? No, listen,
I have a team. I have a team of people.
I got good arrangers, good engineers. We were. It's a
team effort, you know, success as many fathers, Bob as
you know. And we sat down and looked at everything
and uh I said, okay, take it, you guys, give
m a call, see what you want, what we want where?

(03:44):
And the team just dictated everything. I produced it all
myself with them, with them. Okay. Now, the old days,
even in the somewhat recent days, to cut basics, everybody
would get together in a big studio. On this album,
did everybody ever just get together like that? No, we
didn't go near a big studio. We we couldn't with

(04:06):
COVID even when it was proposed. We didn't want to
take the chance. I thought that, well, why we don't
have to as long as we can go to Budapest.
And if I need a guitar player over here, great
keyboards are all done here, great h J R R drummer.
He's at home and like myself, many people you know,

(04:26):
ship everything over to him and he does it. So
we don't all meet unless we have to. Okay, And
you have a studio in the house so you can
cut your parts. I have a studio in the house.
We have the technology here to put down a core,
put down a base of everything. UM pretty simple. I
mean the last time I was in a studio with
a full orchestra was with UM when I was doing

(04:49):
rock Swings. You know, I wanted to be very authentic.
It was career threatening, so I wanted to get the
best of everything. We went to Capital, We used all
the best mikes we could get to get the sound,
best orchestra, and put all our money in being in
a studio. But that's the last time I've been in
a studio. Okay, are you yourself technologically savvy or you

(05:13):
were of a you know, you know there are people
who are whizzes on their iPhone whizzes in the studio,
and other people are more conceptual. How about yourself. I'm
not a multiple whiz expert. I'm a whiz and maybe
one or two things. I have an understanding of what
it is. I don't really want to do it, Bob.
I want to sit home. You know, I'm out a
keyboard all day and you know I'm you know, I

(05:35):
do everything I used to on a typewriter because I
was going to be a journalist. But more than that,
I'm not interested in doing you know, I pay people
that know what they're doing. They're on a day to
day and I have really no interest to do that whatsoever.
I'm not even a prisoner in my phone. You know,
people text me, you may hear from me three or
four days later. I don't jump to it because if
it's an emergency, they find you. And other than that, no,

(05:57):
I don't want to be a prisoner to that stuff.
So now, now that the album is done and out,
what are your expectations? None? Uh, the way the business
is today, you know, Look, I plan on on on
house money at this age and everything I've been through
in this business. I don't sit there and chew my

(06:18):
nails off. I'm not chewing my nails. But in my
number one, number three, I have enough friends and young
artists that I talked to that they can't sleep at night.
Not interested what I'm interested in. It's all about the music.
You put it out there, whatever happens. You know, I've
got my core following. However they respond. It sets you
up for the tour and lets you know you're still running.

(06:39):
You've got a historical moment, whether it's with Olivia Newton
John because of this TikTok bou blay and uh, Bocelli.
That's enough for me. Now, whatever happens to what happens.
But outside of this box of show business, I don't
live with expectations. I think it's a dangerous mindset to
be in. Have you always in that way, or you've

(07:00):
learned that over time? I've learned most of it over time.
In the beginning, when I left home with a hundred
bucks and you know, at fifteen and a few songs
in my pocket, you know, I had the dream, I
had the expectations. I bought into all of that stuff, live, breathe,
rock and roll. And then I realized that everybody that
I was dealing with, everyone around me, they weren't sophisticated.

(07:22):
You know, none of us, most people in our industry,
they're not sophisticated. They get lucky with something and then
they start crawling along this journey trying to deal with
the success and hoping that ultimately down the road to
get some wisdom has to deal with it. But that
ended for me maybe twenty years in or I just said,
no more expectations. I'm done with that, okay. Staying on

(07:43):
the album just for a few more minutes. The opening
track Fool for Love, Yes, if it didn't have your
name on it, it would fit right in on Serious's
yacht rock channel. It sounds very rock and it's very good.
Can you tell me the story on that record? On
that track, Yeah, I purposely on a couple of the tracks,
just you know, I wanted to sound different. Not that

(08:05):
it was tough, but I have a songwriter's voice and
then I've got, you know, in aclectic kind of way
I sing different things. I wanted to make it very
rock that Ariana. There's a few on there that I had,
how already done all of that pop kind of sounding
stuff and the way that I wrote it, in the
way that I heard it, you know, I wanted to
surround it with that kind of rock attitude, which you

(08:28):
know I did, you know, years ago, and I've been
a fan of it, and I purposely just said I'm
not going to do the typical kind of anchor batted
approach to those and it all came easy. So we
laid it down, felt good and even the sound, you know,
the way that I was singing it, I felt that
that really fit was indigenous to the song. Okay, there's
also a track Power to the People, which seems somewhat political,

(08:52):
although it doesn't really take a side where you take
a steam politically or is that too dangerous? Why did
you cut that track? Good question? I um, I've always
shunned from getting myself up there politically because you're gonna
lose half or more. Um, I'm just and further one

(09:13):
I would ever step down. So the politics and what
I've seen in politics very dangerous game. But I wanted
to write about it. There's three tracks on there where
I was very you know, moved and emotional about the
fact that where we are right now in the world,
where we are in this country, I wanted to make

(09:33):
my statement, thus, crazy world, if everyone could sing one
song and power to the people. Now, if you go
back maybe two years and one of your columns, you've
obviously done so much great stuff that we all love.
For the most part, you had a you had a

(09:55):
a column about, uh, the state of the country. There
are words that you used, et cetera. Well, if you
listen to that again, there's about four instances in there
where I lifted, I was moved, where I used and
if you listen to it, you're gonna you'll go and

(10:17):
find the piece you said people know the power no no, uh,
voice of voices, voices just a voice unless it's heard.
There's about four times and then you that you moved
me and I used it in the song. Now don't
get irving to come after me for royalties. You know,
your open game for all of us. But I used

(10:40):
I used a lot of your stuff. That's great, it's
great to be the inspiration. Let's talk about the writing process.
You say you're a writer. How do you do it?
Do you sit down at the piano at ten am?
Or you wait to get inspired? How does it come together? Well,
all of us are right, um, were the same, but

(11:00):
we're different. I think for me, the way I wrote
in the fifties were it all started. I wrote all
the time, had a hundred bucks a month, and I
sat in a room that the record company locked me
away and I had to give him, you know, three
albums a year or more. And that process was just
right right right live rock and roll through the years.

(11:21):
What's happened is depending on how I'm motivated to what. Uh.
You take something like The Longest Day, which I wrote
for the film The Longest Day, You know that was
a lot way out of my Bailey Wick in terms
of the film historical day in our country. You know,
I'm with Darryl Zank and I'm at lunch with this guy,
and I'm saying, God, you know, thank you for having

(11:42):
me this film. I'm twenty, etcetera. I'm saying, who who,
who does? Who's doing the music? He says, no music,
no love story. It's a documentary type film. Okay, I
go home. I got the melody in my head. I
got it half finished on the way home on the airplane.
I went in the studio after maybe about two weeks
refining it and doing what I want to make a demo.

(12:04):
I send it to him, gets back to me in
two weeks, as there will be music. Now I'm off
I'm off point, but it just shows you when that's
totally on point, you're inspired and you're literally writing it
right away while you're inspired. Right So the point is
when I get inspired like that, you sit down. I
like to do it at night because there's no distractions.

(12:26):
I like to sit down when I really feel I'm
in a good kind of frame of mind. I don't
like to force anything because as you evolve as a craftsman,
which many of us are, uh, you know, good becomes
the enemy of great, especially today where everybody does it.
Everybody writes, everybody sings, everybody everybody. But to get it

(12:47):
to where you want it to be, I need to
be totally alone. I need to be totally in a
great frame of mind without any baggage. And you're right
away and you just hope, you hope you get it
to the place where you want it, where you like it.
You know, if it's something like She's a Lady. You know,
I knew I had to write for Jones because we
were buddies. I flew to England did his TV show

(13:08):
and he said, to write me, you write me a
song because I've never been number one in the United States,
which he wasn't. And uh, I said, yeah, sure. So
I jumped on t w A flying home and you
know we're on planes. Is not paper around when it
moves you, you know you need paper, You need something
on the back of a menu. I wrote, She's a Lady.
Put the words down first, which is not part of

(13:30):
the regular process. You usually like to get the structure
and the note, and the word is as good as
the note under it. So with with She's a Lady
and knocked that off in just maybe a couple of
days because I was inspired by this guy. You know,
it's all about sexuality. I really put myself in his place.
It was no different than Buddy Holly. He was my friend,

(13:53):
we were we were bus mates. We're going to start
a music company together. And he said, Paul, you know
I'm getting fleeced by my man. You're I want to
change my style. He said, you know, write me something.
I want strings. I want to do what you're doing.
And I wrote, it doesn't matter anymore on a ukulele,
And the process was always the same inspiration. Now, when
you're writing for yourself like this album, you know, love

(14:16):
is the strongest emotion and it's what I've always dealt in.
That's a different thing because I'm kind of I know
the parameters. I know pretty much what I want to do,
how I should be doing it, and I just sit
and write and write. I continue to write even when
I get down to doing the vocal, because once that
comes together, if there's a line or a rhyme or

(14:39):
an attitude line, I'll rewrite it and I'll keep rewriting
until I get what I want. So it's just eclectic
it's all over. As to the approach, now, you say
you're writing all the time, Yeah, let's just talk in
the last seven days. If you're written in the last
seven days, I started, uh one song in the last
seven days. And then I've been working with a young

(15:01):
rapper type pop singer who's sixteen working with him. So
I put a lot of energy into that. And uh.
Other than that, I'm on the phone from six in
the morning with radio all over the country, you know,
promoting the record company want me to talk to these guys,
which is great, and that eats up my time. So
I'm dedicated to that, and I'm dedicated to sitting here

(15:21):
through boxes and boxes of photos and film they'll go
back sixty years, trying to get ready for what's going
to go into this documentary. Okay, let's talk a little
deeper on the writing process recovered when you're rawly inspired
with Buddy Holly and Tom Jones, etcetera. But are there
other days where you'll literally just say I want to write.

(15:44):
I'm sitting down in front of the piano. I got nothing.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Uh more So let's say on
the second half of my writing life, Um, where I'm
much more of a critic to myself. And there's other
things around ound you in your life, you know, which
will go nameless for the moment. Yes, you're absolutely effect

(16:05):
and I don't force it. I just don't force right.
There's times I've sat there for an hour and I said,
it's just not happening. It's just not happening, yes the answers, Yes, well,
tell me about what it is happening. Well, when it
is happening, there's a certain feeling that you get. You're
just you know, you're walking around the house, you're driving,

(16:25):
you're out, you're doing you can get this sense because
you're coming up with lines and you're writing them down
and you're recording them into your phone. You've got this
vibe happening where it's that that once in a what
where you go, wow, I gotta get the pianos. It's happening,
and you sit down and it flows and flows and
you just keep writing, keep writing, keep melody, lines going,

(16:48):
getting your structure, and it's just one of those moments
that you know you're given a gift. I feel, and
I think that for for a lot of guys. You know,
Bert backrock, He said, dear buddy of mine. I octobert.
You know many times a week he's still writing. You know,
we talk about when he's moved as I am, and
when he's not well right now last week he wasn't.

(17:09):
So we we understand the process of when we get
excited about something that we internally here or a lyric
that's turning us on, that it's time to sit down
and nail it. But don't force it. It just can't
force it. You know, we're not building a house that
has to be done by October. Let's say you're really hot.
You say, man, I'm in the mood. Yeah. Do you

(17:32):
find that you almost have to disconnect because otherwise you're
self conscious and you go off the rails? Say that again, Well,
I guess what I'm saying. I'm talking about writing. Sometimes
I'll write something and I go I'll realize, I go, whoa,
this is really good. And if I realize it's really good,
it's hard to stay that good. Whereas other times, if

(17:52):
I just stay in the zone, don't worry about reaction
and just let it flow, it's easier to stay on
point with the great stuff. Wow, how do I answer that?
That's um? No, If if I'm really on it and
and you know, throwing the dice with it because it's
so good and reaching out and trying to do it.

(18:14):
I just stay there. I get disciplined when I get
the sense that I've kind of done well, you know,
the ready process. When I went to school, I was
typing seventy words a minute. I was going to be
a journalist, as a cup cup reporter. You know, you're
sitting there for a minute. You don't know how to
start the piece. You don't know what that first line is,
you know, and you get hung up. It's a very

(18:34):
lonely existence when you're all by yourself there and you're
looking at it and waiting for it. But when it's
flowing you you just jump right on. You keep going
with it. I'm not afraid of it in either area,
not at all. Okay, So, how do you, with so
much experience and so much success, separate good from great? Yeah? Tough,

(18:57):
it's tough. You you're really hard yourself. Um for the
most part, when you're really done with it, Uh, you
can separate it. Uh. Functional has some appeal? Is it great?
You know none of us have that magic wand and

(19:18):
the music business. We don't know. Nobody sits there, says
this is number one, this is this, this is this.
But you know, within the scope of what you're capable of,
that you've written something that's just not okay, you know,
because I I hate just being good, because I think
that you've got to really go beyond that, way beyond this.

(19:39):
Too much of that around today in music that's just
too much. Let alone the fact you don't know where
you're gonna go with it. It's it's just a very
tough landscape to deal on. Okay, let's talk a little deeper.
You start on the piano, Yeah, to what degree? Will

(19:59):
that be locked? And we'll be locked before you do
the lyrics or will the will the music sometimes change
as you're writing the lyrics or when the lyrics even finished.
All of that. I think first, once I get the
title or the concept of the song, which will set
in motion the melody base. Uh, it all morphs out

(20:24):
of that. You know. If I'm if I'm adding on
a structure five more words, I've got to change the
melody under it. So it's all back and forth between
the two. Unless I really have a melody that I know,
it's a lock it's like my way. That was a lock.
There was no way I could change that melody, not
not a bit, but the way the lyric came out

(20:47):
of me at you know, one in the morning. You know,
I sat with that melody for a long time. And
it was only because I'm in Florida, I'm at the
fountain Blue. Frank Sinatra was my guy, my enter. I
hung with him, Sammy, don't forget Dean Martin, great singer,
great guy. And these were my guys. And all through
the years I hung with them. From Vegas Sinatra and say,

(21:09):
when you're gonna write me a song, When you're gonna
write me a song? Kid, well as intimidated. I mean,
I couldn't give a popularve or lonely boy would have
thrown a chair at me. It was in Florida when
he said I'm retiring from Chopez, I'm quitting. I'm gonna
do one more album, one more album, and I'm out
of here. I'm gonna do it with Don Costa. Well,
Don Costa was my producer. I introduced him to Frank

(21:32):
in the sixties and they did a great album called
Sinatra and Strings. And after dinner, I sat there and
I just said, you're you're really quitting. I'm done, he said,
you know, the FBI is all over me, the rat
packs over, but I gotta do one more album for
the company. I go back to New York and I'm

(21:52):
sitting there at my typewriter. It's one of the morning,
thunderstorm outside, and I'm going quitting Schobez. I got to
write something, and I got right off the head I
got and now the end is near metaphorically the final curtain.
And I started writing it as if he were sitting
in the chair, because there's stuff in there. I'd never
normally right ate it up and spit it out, all

(22:15):
part of what he was about. So by five in
the morning, I had finished this thing, and it just
came and came out and came out a little refinement.
But that was the one moment that I could say,
I don't know where the hell it came from. I
don't know how every word, every verse locked in like that.
I did a demo the next day. I flew out

(22:37):
to Vegas. I called him. I said, Sir, I got
the song. Blah blah blah blah. He said, come on out.
I took it to him. His dressing room. He was
finishing up at Caesar's Palace, you know, and he wasn't
a guy and I love and he did. You know,
he's always played cool. I love it, kid, I'm gonna
do it so great. Two months later, I get a call.
I'm in my apartment in New York. He's in a

(22:59):
studio with on at I think Sunset Sound, one of
those places, and the operator said Mr Sinatra calling. Okay,
I pick up the phone. He says, kid, listen to this,
and he takes the phone. He puts it next to
one of those big speakers, and I heard my way
for the first time, and I started crying. I mean,
I just said, ship, this is unreal. I finally got

(23:22):
Sinatra to do one of my songs, and then a
couple of years later he decided to come back. And
he calls up and says, ken, I'm coming back. Write
me in other songs. I gave him. Let me try again,
and he introduced it. Jerry Wittrop called. He said, because
he was my other buddy. He says he's gonna do
it and introduce it at Madison Square Garden. PAULI. I said,

(23:45):
oh God, you're killing me. Bring it on and that
was a very those moments writing for him. I've never
had that kind of experience. Did you ever write something
for somebody and they said no, Yeah, yeah I have.
I've had a couple of yeah, yes, and that's okay.

(24:12):
You know, I've had, uh, I know, something with a
fifth dimension. Because I liked the group. I finally got
one on there, but they turned me down twice. Um.
I think I said something to Presley, but he finally
did my way. Um, Michael bou Ble. I gave Michael
a couple of new songs and it wasn't working. And
that's okay, you know that. Look, that's so okay. As

(24:34):
a writer. When you're writing like that, you're just right
and whatever. It is a great song. Ultimately, something's gonna happen.
Now I'm looking at this whole TikTok thing. I didn't
know what it was. I had no idea until these
kids showed up at my door. I have this sixteen
year old son and these girls start singing this put
your head on my shoulder and I don't know why,

(24:56):
and they said, TikTok, TikTok. I said, what is TikTok? Well,
of course, did my homework gut involved. I'm listening, I'm watching,
I'm saying, I don't believe this. I wrote her at
seventeen and who they all knew that with TikTok, and
none of us knew where this business was going. Who
would have envisioned this? You know, all we ever saw
was the wrapback then when I you know, I talked

(25:18):
to Normy Weiss and said, Bernstein, who are my agents?
When I was living in Europe and I come home
and say, there's these Beetles, these Beatles, and they go,
what do you mean Beatles? What beetles? I said, you
got They're amazing and I but I was knocking these
guys to go bring him to the States, and I
think VJ Records trying to put something else that bombed.
And finally norm me, he goes over because I told

(25:42):
him to, and they bring him back in sixty four.
And the point is until the Beatles came and opened
everything up. You know, Madison Avenue didn't like us kids,
the parents didn't like us. Kids were slepping around the
country on a bus making two a week, which we
loved until the Beatles out here. Then it started opening up.

(26:02):
Ben Hendrix and you know, the rest of the story.
But you know we were back then. We're just these
little pioneers. Okay, let's talk about the Beatles. When did
you When did you first experience the Beatles? Well, I
had off point a little. I I toured in Europe
from age seventeen on. I'm going everywhere and I'm loving it.

(26:25):
You know, I'm a kid out of Canada, New York
and all of a sudden, I'm introduced to the world.
So I'm over in Europe a lot and I'm performing
him a lot. I'm one of the first, you know, kids,
rock and roll artists, whatever. Pop going to Japan, I'm
going to Paris, I'm going to Italy. I'm in Paris.
I'm in Paris. I get married in Paris, and I

(26:48):
go to the theater where I started as a kid,
the Olympia Theater, to see one of my friends who
was top of the bill for a man called Bruno
Coca Tricks, who was a wonderful guy, a great promoter,
and he is my guy in France. When I walk
in and I see the undercard the Beatles, I don't
know the Beatles, trying to say, what's what's the what

(27:10):
are they doing with Gilberber go, these kids aren't fresh,
and I see the hair and I see everything. I said, well,
this is gonna be interesting. So I'm sitting there, luities
and gentlemen, please dear loo to the Beatles. They didn't
know who the hell they were either. And these kids
come on and they're my age and they start and

(27:30):
I'm going, God, damn, this is interesting. This is good, right,
So I go backstage. Bruno takes me back. I'll send
you some pictures that we took together. And I meet
these guys and they say, hey, Paul, how are you?
And do we love what you're doing? And uh, you
know you write your own stuff and we want to
write our own stuff and you produced them in your

(27:51):
public and I'm wrapping with these guys and I really
like them. I go to London. We meet up again.
What I realize in seeing them that there's something else coming.
But there's not a huge placement for them with me
because I'm writing these teenage songs. I'm not a guitarist.

(28:11):
I'm not influencing them on guitar. They're all talking about
Chuck Berry, they're talking about Fats Domino, you know, all
the the American acts, the blues. But they're looking at
me with a respective Well, we hear those violins, but
you know we're not there, but they're they're really gracious.
They're really gracious. So I go home after meeting them

(28:32):
and seeing them on a few occasions, and that's when
I told Noramy and Sid Burnstein, I brought some records, pictures, etcetera.
And they're looking at me. You know, they're scratching. They
had because you know, pop music back then, it was
in its infancy stage, was still growing. There was like
two agencies. You had three or four cities that were
making records. I mean, I didn't know where to go,
and I left Canada. I went to New York because

(28:53):
it was the closest to Canada. Had a feel for it.
You know, I want to contest collecting souper rappers. So
that's how I got in New York. And I know
that it's it's the center of the music. So with
it all just starting out like that, when I go
to England, they didn't have anybody in the charts. We
we dominated. There wasn't one English act. You had a
guy named Tommy Steele. The Beatles hadn't really hit yet.

(29:17):
And then we dominated. Well, of course what they did,
they took it made it better. We know that story,
and they had their own life going. But until then,
there was no way that we were in an accepted
entity other than our fans, nobody, and you know, certain
guys in radio, you know, we were some of us.

(29:39):
We widified rock and roll. You know, when I traveled
in some cases there's the only white kid on a
bus and they were my buddies. And I'm going to
the South for the first time. But the black experience
was motivating me in Canada. And when you look at
the history of the music in this country, it's always
the black experience that is dominating and really happening with

(30:01):
some legs to it. And that's what I experienced then.
And to watch it the way it motivated all the
English and to watch how it grew here and how
I was pretty much growing up with that music and
with these fellow artists that were my buddies. Okay, let's
do a little fill and you talk about writing the
song for Buddy Holly. Did you know that Linda ron

(30:24):
Stat was cutting it or was only when it came
out and then ultimately success. I had no idea issues
going to sing it. I might have been informed in
terms of uh issuing a license. Uh wow, what a record,
what a great singer, what a natural, What a great

(30:45):
job she did with that song. There's been many covers
on that song, but I will tell you, outside of Buddies,
that's my favorite rendition of it doesn't matter anymore of
Linda Ron said, great, let's go back to the beginning.
So we're exactly do you grew up in Canada? I
was born in Ottawa, Canada, which is in the east.

(31:07):
It's a you know, quite a few miles from Toronto.
It's a near Montreal, which was a drive from there,
A hundred fifty thou people and the capital of Canada.
So you grew up in Ottawa. Two. I grew up
in Ottawa. I started. I went to school until I

(31:27):
was in grade ten for the second time, and I
realized I got to get out of here. And I
took a course in UH because of journalism of shorthand
and typewriting. And while growing up, you know, when television
went on at five in the afternoon and off at ten,
none of these talent shows. So I was this kid

(31:50):
thrown out of shorthand. I took music. I was a big,
big fan of all the music. My mom worked out
at Sears Roebuck and she me money to go buy
my records, and that's all I wanted to do. One day,
it just clicked that I wanted to write and I
wanted to sing. I started a group called the Bobby Sucksers.
We would hitchhike do local stuff thirty bucks. I got

(32:14):
rid of the group because I knew that wasn't gonna work.
And I was a fan of all the music stuff.
So while growing up and going to school, Uh, music
was all I wanted to do. I want to get
the hell out of there and go wherever I can
make a record. Now I did prior to getting my
deal in New York, I came out to Los Angeles

(32:35):
on a vacation. Let's not go for a second. Okay,
you're holding it. Why did you have to go to
grade ten twice? Because I didn't like school that was
not doing well. I was just it was sports and
music and they weren't gonna pass me and that was okay.
And what did your parents say about having to do

(32:55):
it twice? Well, we all know what parents are like. Yeah,
they were not They weren't happy. They're dealing with this
kid or wherever he can sing, sing, sing, no homework,
no homework, no homework. They weren't happy. You know, my
dad was you gonna be a lawyer, You're gonna be
a journalist, and what happened, Well, Dad, I'm not interested.

(33:16):
I want to write, I want to sing. I want
to hit shike and sing at the universe. Not happy.
In fact, I went to juvenile court. Not many people know.
I was so going home about singing and doing. My
mother had an Austin Healy. May she rest in peace.
I lost her at eighteen and I would practice in

(33:37):
the driveway because it was Canada. You know, You've got
Ontario and a river in the middle, and then you've
got Quebec, and the only place you could go to
get drinks and have a nightlife was in Quebec, and
all the clubs were there. And I heard about this club,
the Glen Lee Club, where you'd go amateur contest and
they throw money and you can make about twenty bucks.

(33:58):
And I wanted to go over there to put the
milagin because you know, none of these guys that we
see today made it like that. It's all you gotta
put the mileage in, so I started practicing with the
Austin Healey and then I knew that the Friday night
was the big night, and I backed the car out.
My mom was asleep because you know her diabetes, and uh,
I start driving and I go over this bridge called

(34:20):
the Champlaine Bridge, and I'm driving this Austinity and it's
a gearshift right and I'm struggling with the gear shift.
And I get over there and I parked the car.
I go in had a guitar, was to do it
Elvis Presley imitation, Johnny Ray song, uh Bill Haley and
the comments. And I win the contest and I got

(34:41):
about twenty bucks and I jumped back in the car
as a major, major snowstorm like only Canada gets. And
I'm driving home over this Champlaine Bridge and I'm trying
to get the goddamn gear up in the second and
third car starts smoking and I hear the parts of
the hood flying out and hit the hood and I'm
leaving half the car behind me. And there was an

(35:03):
exit off the bridge, and I get off the exit.
I go down to what was Lover's Lane. There was
a Chinese restaurant and all the kids would go park there. Well,
I'm a real kid, I'm like fourteen, and I'm sitting there.
I'm saying, ship, what what am I gonna do here?
And I see behind me the red beacon and the
police pull up and they bang on the window. Kid,

(35:24):
what are your THEA was your pup? Pup? Pup? Uh?
They leave the car, they take me home. They wake
up my mother. The poor woman comes through the door.
You got these huge mountains. You know, I'm like about
five three at that point. Is this your son? She
was just so upset. My dad was livid, and I
found myself in court. He took me to juvenile court

(35:47):
in front of a judge. They're gonna send me to
a reform school. So I'm sorry. So I won't do
it again. Won't do it again. But that was a
turning point for me because it didn't curtail me in
any way. I still had my bad habits, and I
still wanted to write and be in the business. Okay,
what'd your father do for a living? My dad owned

(36:08):
a restaurant. He had the restaurant in town. It was,
you know, for Ottawa. It was a very classy place.
American Canadian type cuisine, and he owned this restaurant until
it burnt down. We usually restaurants, you're working and the
kids are working in the restaurant. What was it like
in your family? Exactly what you said. My dad would

(36:30):
not get home until two in the morning, worked his
ass off. I mean, I remember the first little house
we had, you know, one bathroom, scuffling to make it.
It evolves. We moved out to the west out of
town a couple of years. I forget what age, maybe fourteen.
I'm working in the kitchen. I'm peeling potatoes, I'm doing

(36:54):
the carrots, I'm doing the garbage, and I'm going more
reason the hell out here. I did not want to
be in the restaurant business. And he was just watching
over me and you know, trying to figure out every
movie how to handle it. You know, he said, really,
is this what you want to do? And you know, why, why, why? Why?

(37:14):
But I didn't want to be in the restaurant business.
And this poor guy was busting his ass till one
two in the morning every night, So you know, he
got that call at three in the morning. I'll never
forget the places on fire. It was on fire. And
it just broke his heart. It broke his heart. I mean,
thank god. A couple of years later, with my number
one record, he came and he worked with me. I

(37:36):
bought my mom a home like she never had, and
then you know, she died like a year later. I
just gave it all back to them, right out of
the first check. Okay, Now we're your parents warn in
Canada or they come from the old country as we say,
their parents old country, My parents in uh in, Ottawa. Yeah.
He was one of eleven children, and how many kids

(37:57):
in the family, my sister, my brother, and where are
you in the hierarchy? Hello, I'm de bas I'm a
big guy. And put them through school, sent my sister
to finishing school in Switzerland, sent my brother and uh,
I'm the big brother. Okay, So what kind of kids
are you growing up? I wish I wish I knew

(38:22):
you know. I mean, did you have a lot of friends?
Were you an outsider? Were you the leader of the pack?
Were you always a limit tester? I was social, I
wasn't the leader of the pack. I I was very
confident in terms of what I wanted to do. The
student situation, we know, I was kind of at some

(38:47):
at some point, not in the pack because with the
music and then running around singing, you know, they were
looking at me, my friends saying, you know where I'd
sit down to the the piano and play for them. You know,
they loved it, but I wasn't really a part of them.
You know. I was successful with girls, uh, you know,
I was still growing and I was a goalie in hockey.

(39:11):
I was very active in sports. But because of my size,
I just knew that I wasn't getting the girls and
I wasn't going to be a professional or do anything
in school. I was this little kid, was very precocious,
and you know, I just I was a loner. Other
than being social when I had to on the weekends,
I was just a determined kid. Okay, how did you

(39:33):
so tell us the story about being in l A.
So I had an uncle living out here and they
wanted me to come out and visit. My dad said,
you know, you should go out, go on your vacation
and see California blah blah blah. And so I flew
out and still music, still music for me. So I'm
in his apartment, but I'm going down to this Wallacks

(39:55):
Music Center Wallacks music music, music, right, and I'm in
the booth that I'm listening, and there's one song on
the radio I loved called Stranded in the Jungle. Let
me tell if you remember by the who do you
remember the Cadets? Right right, right right, Okay. So now
I'm loving this song, and I got the vinyl and
I'm playing at the apartment, driving them nuts. And in

(40:18):
the interim, I got two book reports. I got to
prepare for school when I go back in the fall.
So there's this. There was a town called blah Wild
to be Spontan, and it's it's the premise of the book,
and it was written by our ex Governor General, so
it's called Prester John. So I said, wow, what an interesting,

(40:38):
interesting sounding word. So I started this song blah while
to be Spontan, blah will to be Spontane were love
is so splendor? And I write this song. When I
look on the label the Cadets Stranding in the Jungle,
it says, uh Modern Records cover City. And it was

(40:59):
like a few miles from my uncle, so I said,
I said to my uncle, look, will you drop me
off at this place or I'm gonna hit psych he's
a gulf taking so he drops he drops me off,
and I walked in us a storefront. I mean, you
might as well have been at Harry's, uh confession er.
And I walk in and everybody's just sitting around the battery,

(41:21):
brother Saul and I forget his brother's name, the sister,
and they're like waiting for something. So I walk in. Hi,
my name is Paul. How you do a kid? What
do you want? Blah blah blah. I got this song,
so Saul says, sing it. So I started singing in
the lobby. I hate like that anymore? Blow will He's

(41:41):
fund it. Well, I don't know if they were like
in Shock, but there's a shortage of talent. And the
guy says to me, he says, well did you get here?
And my uncle dad a dice? Glad you find he
says how? He says, how did you find us? I said,
you're on the record label the Cadets. I said, I
love that, so him he says, well, he says, how

(42:02):
would you like to record it in the garage back
here and I'll get the Cadets to sing with you.
I go, this is I'm fourteen, Bob, I'm fourteen. Right,
I go, you're kidding. He said no, No, he says,
come on back in three days. We're gonna do the SPA.
Now I am. I am just going nuts with this.
Now I come back. I walk in the room. They

(42:23):
introduced me to this guy named Ernie Freeman. Hello Ernie.
He was just starting up how you do get here? Here?
I did this arrangement sill of the Cadets, Cadets. These
were my idols for a month. They said, now you
stand over here, blah blah blah blah blah, and I
record the song. The other side was a record, a
song called I Confess Now I'm in the process. Now, well,

(42:47):
we're gonna get it to the hound Dog and Buffalo.
We're gonna get it to the guy in Chicago. Blah
blah blah. And they released the record How's a Failure fourteen.
I don't know what it's sold two records. We are right,
but it got a little noise in Canada, where I
was from, for obvious reasons. On this kid out of
Ottawa and they played it up there. That was my

(43:10):
first taste in my first recording with the Bahrry Brothers
Modern Records and the cadets, Blah, Wild the Beast mote. Okay,
so you go back to Ottawa. What's your next step
going to school? Paul? You just snow now, So I
go back. Great ten. But now I got a little

(43:31):
notoriety up there. Right now, I got a call from
Norman Jewison, big director up in Canada, who remained a
friend for years, and he's got this talent show. Well, Paul,
we've got this record. We're gonna get it on the charts. Here,
come on to Toronto. I go to Toronto, I sing
the song blah, and then somebody else called. Then that

(43:53):
was it. Then, you know, you have to have sent
Canada back. In the fifties, we're in the shadow of
a big giant down here. You know, we didn't dominate
the way we do today. All these great talents out
of Canada. There was no one Jasell Mackenzie, you know. Great.
So that was it. My career ended. But I said,

(44:17):
I gotta do something. That's when I read about winning
a contest for I J Food Stores to New York
and I win, and I go down. But I'm writing now,
So now I got Diana whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
let's just go a little bit slower. Okay, you have
your hit in quotation marks. That ends a little bit slower.

(44:39):
About the talent contest, the writing in Diana, I got
the taste blow allabys fonte, and I want to keep writing.
Now I'm throwing out a shorthand class I'm taking music.
I sit down doing all the classical stuff. Then I
drift off and start doing my own stuff. There's a
girl three three years older than I. Now. Back then

(45:00):
it was relevant. If you're older, the chick is older
and you're young, you're not getting a date. So I
write this song I'm so young, you're so old? I mean,
no Shakespeare, how I felt and I do. I sit
down and now I've got some command of the piano
and I'm writing. So I start writing, uh, Diana, tell
me that you love me and don't gamble with love.

(45:23):
And I'm playing them to my friends. We're parties and
I'm playing it. But what am I gonna do with it?
So I went to a local station and made a
demo record because I told that's what you're supposed to do.
Then I said, I got to get to New York
and play for somebody. Back then in the fifties, the
Canadian groups, the Crew Cuts, the Four Lads, they were

(45:45):
the covers for all the black songs. They're doing Earth Angel,
all the black artists, whether it was Little Richard whomever.
You know, they were not allowed on white radio. That's
what prevailed. So you had everybody white to fight, whether
it was Pat Boone, whether it was these groups in Canada.
They come to my dad's restaurant, one of the groups
when I was peeling potatoes in the back and I

(46:07):
come out and my dad said, you know, my son
writes you know, and they're looking at me like, please
let us finish dinner. So now they said, well, you know,
we're at this new label ABC Paramount, and if you
ever get to New York, look him up and say
we sent you. I got that occasion when I left

(46:27):
for on an Easter vacation. I go down and uh
do go down alone, not knowing anybody where you gonna stay.
My my my had an uncle who was living down there. Uh.
They they put me in a room at the President
Hotel on f Street and he's watching over me. But

(46:49):
I want my own room. So I'm living at the
President Hotel. I got this one room, and I'm looking
out at New York and New York back then, as
you know, that was it, man, that was it. And
I'm walking the streets and doing and my uncle's watching
over me. But I don't want to live with him
so now, and I was only and I only had
four days to do this. So I get an appointment

(47:12):
at ABC Paramount and I walk from the hotel up
to down to forty second. They had a building, the
Paramount Ability and I walk in my jeans a T
shirt appointment see Mr Costa and I walk in and
he looks at me like the Barry Brothers. But it's

(47:33):
a year later. He says, yes. I said, no, not
from Canada. I've had da dada and I got these songs.
He says, we'll sit down and play him. And he
was a guitar player, and I said at the piano
and the walls are shaken because I'm a heavy handed
piano player. He says, we're your parents. I said, there
in Canada. And he said, well, I want you to

(47:56):
meet some people. I said, okay. So he gets Am Clark,
Irwin Garr, Larry Newton, and these guys walk in with
the suits and they're looking at me. He says, sing
for him, So that's that singing. He said, where are
your parents? I said, Darren, Canada. What's but the parents?
He said, uh, well, we want to sign a contract,

(48:18):
and you're you're you're too young, but we want to
record you. Ah. Here I am again. The Baharry brothers
all over, but no cadets, just these guys. So I
call my dads. The dad, the dad bah bah. They're
flying you down. My dad said you sure. I said, yeah,
just get on the plane. They want to sign me.
They fly the parents down. We signed a contract. I

(48:40):
get a hundred bucks a month to write, and my
parents go home in disbelief. And two days later I
gotta get to Capitol Records on Broadway and two o'clock
the afternoon, but at night I'm enjoy in New York
FI to two. I wake up. I'm late. I'm supposed

(49:03):
to be at the studio ship And I wanted to
fix Diana because at the end of the bridge, I go,
oh my heart, oh oh oh. It always bothered me
because you know, oh, I mean what's oh? So I said, Scott,
I didn't fix it. So now I run down Broadway.

(49:24):
I would get into capital. Now. In those days, the
cool thing about it, unlike today, everybody had to know
their parts. Now there's six great musicians looking at me.
Costs rehearsed them, they know their parts. They put me
in the booth. I think I know my parts. The
engineers in there, I'll forget his name. I'm looking at

(49:46):
a tape machine. It's a quarter of an inch thick,
and everything's gonna go through that right onto that tape,
and we're gonna get it done in three hours. They start,
and I'm in there and we get to Oh, and
I apologized to Dawn. He said's all right, leave it in.
We like oh. So we've finished the three songs in

(50:08):
the Yeah in three hours. I say goodbye the musicians.
That was it. That was it. Then they do a
vinyl back. Then you do a vinyl, you ship it
to the guys in radio. Within a week, you gotta hit.
Two months later, I'm on American Bandstand, and then a

(50:30):
month later I'm on Ed Sullivan that I used to
watch in Canada. So when this span from May to September,
my life absolutely upside down changed. There's no more Grade
ten and the American dream is just sitting there in
my lap, and I couldn't believe it. The cool thing
about what I felt of the story is what changed

(50:51):
my life. Prior to going to New York. The Rock
and Roll Show comes through Canada. They put all these
guys together on the bus and Chuck Berry Fettes Domino.
They all came and in the hockey arena about ten acts.
And I had bought this new jacket with white sleeves,
and I was gonna break in and get back and

(51:12):
haven't signed my jacket. I find a way because I
was a hockey player and I knew the way into
the backstage. And I go backstage and I get into
Chuck Barry's dressing room and Chuck is there, first time
I met him, putting his guitar away. Said oh, Mr
Barry and Paul Anka, I'm a songwriter night and I

(51:32):
love your music. And I got this song called Diana.
He says, sing it. It's such singing Diana. He says,
the worst song I ever had. Go back to school.
It's in his book. He'll tell you the worst song
I ever heard. I said, really, so, I you know,
I looked at him. I oh, okay, and I wasn't
dejected there at all. As I'm leaving, this guy comes

(51:56):
around the courtineamed Irving Feld, remember that name. He was
responsible and a smart cat for all that early stuff.
He was a very Him and his brother Izzy on
drug stores in Washington called superstores. But what they did
they used to rack records, pretty much all the black experience,

(52:18):
and they would see what was selling, and he and
Izzy would call up book the act, put them all
on a bus whoever it was, fifteen Clyde mcfatter, the platters, etcetera, etcetera.
And that's how he started all of those big rock
and roll tours. He says to me, what are you
doing back here? I said, I got a song, and
he says, get out of here. I said, sir, you're

(52:39):
gonna hear from me. One day, I said, remember my
name Paul Anchor. He said, just go. You're not what
Paul like? Fade out, faded. I get a call the
following year, guy calls my house. Is Paul Anchor there?
My dad says, yeah, who's calling? He said, well, my
name is Irving Fell and I'm looking for Paul an.

(52:59):
He's got the record Diana and it's huge. I want
to book him. So my dad said, dad, bah bah ba,
and Irving Feld I said, I know who he is.
I get on the phone. I said, Mr Feld, Paul Anco,
remember you threw me out of the auditory. So he says,
oh my god, yes, yes, he said, I want you
on the tour. I said, great, give me three bucks.

(53:22):
I'm with this guy. I'm under age, taking care of me.
I'm living in Washington with him and his family because
I'm this kid. And he said, wow, amazing story. What's
happened here? He said, you know, I want you to
come back and do another tour because then after the
tour and ended, I had you are my destiny. I said, look,
first of all, you got me for three week. You're

(53:45):
a real smart guy. I said, I'm not coming back
here unless you become my partner. He said, what I said,
I want to be in business with you. You're gonna
look after my career. He says, let me think about it.
Called me back. He said, we're gonna be partners. Mom
back down, and Irving felt he was the key to
my success. I learned more from him. You know, guys

(54:08):
like Geffen and wine Troup smart guys. They all knew
Irv and those are the guys, whether it's a geffn
or Wine Troup, Irving, all those guys, the old school
guys that went through that experience back then, you'll never
ever see them again ever. And that's what felt was
for me. He taught me so much from business life,

(54:31):
all that stuff. This guy raised me in Washington, d C.
Till I left when I was twenty one, I got married. Okay,
you have success, you're on television, you're on the bus first,
how do you cope with this emotionally? There are a
lot of people the success happens, they get into substance

(54:52):
abuse or they crack up. How do you stay on
the rail? Well, we had no problem about then. We
got all we wanted. But seriously, you know, it's a great, great,
great question to all of us. And I look at
the kids today and we know those stories back then

(55:14):
because of my Canadian upbringing, because of Irving, who watched
over me. And I'm trying to deal with the success.
And I'm trying to keep the nose clean. Now. When
you see Frankie Lyman, may he arrest a great artist,
you know, shooting up in the bathroom. Uh, And you

(55:35):
know the end of the story and how it was
really hurting his career. Uh and many others that were
into drugs and not being able to deal with what
their commitment called them what they were supposed to do
in terms of respect to what they were given. I
just realized that I wanted to stay in control. I

(55:58):
did not want to go there. But then you know,
it's um. I was always curious about it. I went
on drug grades with detectives in uh New York that
that you know. I was the first kid to work
the COPA and these detectives would come and see me
and they said, you want to go into drug rade.
I said, yeah, but it was just out of curiosity.

(56:19):
But I never wanted to, nor would Irve allow me
be in those circles to where I'd ever get a
taste of that. Now, you know, when I'm with the
Everly Brothers, Um, Buddy Holly, we drank beer. Uh Don
was the only one we knew that really got into
the heavy ship. But for the most part, and other

(56:42):
than the beer, there's a group of us said we're
just never ever get unstable. We we just didn't have it. Now,
when you start working for the mob at the COPA,
you start and then you go to Vegas. You're in
this group of eyes. They're twice your age. They're telling

(57:02):
you to keep your nose clean. They're not gonna put
up with any ship. Even though the rat pack. I'm
experiencing these guys drinking doing, never saw any drugs. You
had to keep your nose clean. You're doing two shows
a night. You're trying to be a responsible artist. Uh,
you're realizing that that's taboo. You're gonna get yourself in trouble.

(57:23):
And I didn't want to lose that. I didn't want
to lose it. All of this ship was happening before
I was twenty one, watching those that got in trouble,
and you make a choice in life. I did not
want to go there. I wasn't a drinker. I'm still
not a heavy drinker today. I never smoked a cigarette.
Have I done weed, Yeah? Sure? Have I given a

(57:44):
little shot at cocaine? Yeah? What is it about? You're
curious but never crossing too lines to where you'd get destabilized.
And IRV was like on my ass all the time
he traveled with me. He made sure I didn't get
any any trouble. And I've been that We've been like
that ever since. It's been like that ever since. Okay,

(58:11):
you know you talk about especially the wave that follows
the British invasion. You have all these guitars and other
players who are all they can do is play, and
I feel they're playing will help them with the opposite sex.
So you were an older teenager but a young man.
You go on the road and a bus with all

(58:32):
these other guys. What were your sexual love experiences? I
couldn't get enough. Who do I give the money back to? Uh?
But you have to realize. You have to realize when
you're on that bus at seventeen and you're nowhere with

(58:53):
what we're allowed today in terms of what sexuality was,
what it represented, you couldn't bring him into Hope tells
you're always doing it on the sly. You were always
aware of the fact that when you were getting to
Pennsylvania that you had to get Chuck Berry off the
bus because he was wanted in eight states in between

(59:14):
and ultimately went to jail at the end of the tour.
You heard all the horror stories of the trouble that
some of them got into my experiences as a young kid.
You know, I didn't really start getting into it till
I planned in Europe, where there were so ahead, what setuality.
You know, my first major girlfriend out there was from England,

(59:34):
brought her over, moved her over to the States, wouldn't
let her go. So it was it was all European
and anything domestic I had to be so careful with
because you're getting trouble, and we didn't want to get
in trouble like Chuck. You know, we love Chuck, we
know his talent, but he loved the ladies. And there
was a story every time. And you know, I'm a kid.

(59:58):
I can't do it. Chuck was doing one or you know,
anybody else. I'm the youngest there. The Everley's Buddy Hall,
I mean buddy married the secretary at the record company.
And it was so elated, and you know, we used
to sit around and talk about change your glasses, buddy.
Get we were talking about chicks. But they were there,
obviously we were there, you know. It was it was

(01:00:18):
this group of guys. You know. I had had lunch
with the Phil Everley may he rest and I took
him in the valley here. He was starting to get
ill and we were reminiscing and we haunded like a pack.
Were these pack of guys And we went to were
a little town up in Canada, and every afternoon what
do we do with each other? Because all we had
to do that night was saying one or two songs

(01:00:40):
and uh. We go to the movie theater and they
must have been six of us, and these guys, about
ten of these leather biker types were sitting behind us,
and I think they knew who we were, but they
didn't like us, and they start tapping us in the
rating us in the theater and we're getting nervous because

(01:01:03):
we're out numbered and these guys were tough. So we
walk out of the theater and they follow us out
and Phil and I were like, what then, we gotta
get back on Hoteling. You now, the band, the Paul
Williams Orchestra that traveled with us, Bob, they're all black, right,
and great musicians, and there was twelve of them, right,

(01:01:24):
and they were all on the tour together. As we're
walking down the street with these guys approaching us aggressively,
what comes around the corner? But these twelve black dudes
can well, these guys took off. I don't think they've
ever seen that many lettle On see the black dude right,
what's up baby? You need some help there? And he

(01:01:46):
and I were just telling story after story after tour.
He was a great guy, Phil and they were so talented.
You know, people don't realize today, even though they're they're
touching on it, the influence of those guys, and you've
written about it. You know, when you sit in that
room and I'm in the piano, they're playing guitars and
you're hearing you know what's gonna come out, and you're

(01:02:07):
talking about the harmony, what they're doing. Look at who
they turned on between Buddy and that guitar and the
harmonies and all of this to be a part of that.
And then you land in England and all they're talking
about are these guys and they're copping everything from them.
You know, we can't ever forget those foots. Let me
tell you, you can't forget it because it was so

(01:02:28):
natural back then. You know, today these guys have got
the luxury. You can sit around for eight months, you've
got the technology. You're gonna put this great time to
grow up, great time to learn, great time for me.
When I watched the rat pack when I started as
young kid, and I'm at the sad you got me
hold if I if I had to hold it, I
wouldn't be married. Go ahead, Bob, to what degree on

(01:02:51):
those tours did you see and experience racism? Oh? Baby,
does the pope prey? It was when you come out
of Canada at my age and not exposed. We're not
in a media driven society and you travel down south,
that's all you saw. These guys were my brothers and

(01:03:14):
sisters on that bus. I got religion real quick, shockingly.
So when you pull up to that building for the
first time and it goes whites to the left, black
to the right, and you get into the theater itself
and that's all segregated, and there's police with these dogs
and they're going after my brothers on that bus. Won't

(01:03:37):
let them eat. I had to go around the corner
with the bus with all those acts. I'd have to
go around into a restaurant and bring the food onto
the bus. When we had to go to the bathroom,
we weren't allowed. We'd slow down about three miles an hour,
open the door, and we would piss out the door.
I saw so much back then it was brutal. It

(01:04:00):
was brutal to watch and even reared it's ugly head
when I started working in Vegas, when they wouldn't let
Sammy Davis or Lena Horn when we're at the Sands
and they're living over on the other side of town,
talented people, and they wouldn't let him into the goddamn
hotel or into the pool, and everybody put their foot down,

(01:04:21):
and Sinatra led it and said, this ain't going to fly.
So from fifty to Vegas and beyond, sir, beyond sir,
it was brutal. On me. It was brutal. I've never
witnessed anything like that in my life ever. Okay, you
mentioned playing the copa and the mob. Yeah, go a

(01:04:43):
little more details. At what point did you become aware
there was a mob in the music business and what
was your ultimate interaction The moment I got my feet
wet and I had IRV who was older, experienced. He said, look, Paul,
this is the business. Here's who controls it. You're gonna

(01:05:04):
hear about mafia. You're gonna hear about the mob. They
got their hands on the record business, they got their
hands on the copa. I want you to wear a
shirt and tie. I want you to be polite, and
I want you to know, Paul, that you're gonna be
working for them. They're never gonna hurt you, and you're

(01:05:25):
never gonna ask them for a favor. But this is
who you're going to work for. IRV the Record Company
educated me. Now you have to realize that whole mob scene, mafia,
it didn't really hit mass public attention until after fifty seven.
It was all under under under. You know, I'm living

(01:05:48):
in an apartment around the corner and he gets shot
in the barbershop. All of that mafia stuff started to
come to its head fifty seven fifty night, and I
was aware of it, and that was okay. I would
go to work at the COPA. Mr Podell was a gentleman,
shook his hand. I'm always aware of who I'm working for.

(01:06:12):
They were the greatest to work for. Bob, you shook
their hand. You didn't need a contract. And I saw
stuff from there till I moved from New York to Vegas.
You better keep your nose clean because they were for
real and they ran it in and out. They have
Mush Levy, Morris Levy, great colorful guy back then had

(01:06:32):
to let records, and we all know what he was doing.
And he started what we called write a word, get
a third, which means when one of these kids walking,
must you go and you're not gonna say, uh, don't,
We're gonna use the word wound. Okay, Mr Levy, write
a word, get a third. So we know what they
were doing, you know, and that was okay. They had

(01:06:55):
trucks coming up to the back door delivering records peppep.
You know. We knew we weren't going to get all
our money, but that's who you work for, and you're
aware of it now. It really sunk into me by
the time I got to Vegas because I'm working the
sands a little bit slower. Sure, you're playing the copa, yep,

(01:07:16):
how do you end up in Vegas? Very simple, Spoka.
They're all connected. They all know each other. The Copa
that was your testing ground. They pick up the phone,
they call the guys a big jack and Trotter was
a waiter at the Copa. He goes out to Vegas.
He's running their joint. They all knew each other. If

(01:07:37):
you well, let me stick back a little bit, Darren
me Frankie Avalon. We're knee deep in these careers, but
we're hearing, Oh, you may not always have a record,
You're not always gonna have a hit. We don't know
if you're gonna be around. We're now looking up at
these guys, the rat Back, Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Team Mark,

(01:08:00):
the other way they dress. Look At how cool the
sound we got to do that. We had no vision.
Beyond that, no vision, there's no hand Rich, there's no Beatles.
So we get schooled. We get to tuxedos. We hired
these guys that teach us how to do a nightclub
act because we got to get to the Copa. I
get to the Copa. I opened with the I think

(01:08:22):
Jackie Mason was my opening act, and uh, well, I'll
get a point a little bit. We're a huge hit
first time kids there. I got Jackie Mays. There are
prompt kids all the way around Fifth Avenue till three
in the morning, and we're doing three shows a day
and Jackie Hi, We're a huge hit. Now. For those

(01:08:43):
that remember the Cope, it was his basement club mob
Rannit and next door was a hotel called the Hotel fourteen.
You had to go through this hotel fourteen to get
into the copa because there was no dressing room in
the basement, so you're dressed upstairs and came down through
the kitchen. So we finished. We're a huge hit. And

(01:09:03):
Jackie was Jackie back then and one of the funniest guys.
I mean I have known for years Mary Rest and
you know he had big balls. And We're a big
hit that evening and hear you. So now we go
to work the next night. I go through the entrance.
Jackie wants to go through the front door of the copa,

(01:09:26):
but the kids lining outside around the corner and Mr
Podel used to sit there at the table right at
the entrance with his big ring and chat time. He was.
He was a cool guy. So Jackie walks in and
he's passing the kids and Podell sees him as he's
entering into the lounge and Jackie says, oh, Mr Podell.

(01:09:50):
He says, get back in line, kid and threw him out.
He didn't know who he was. So so getting back
on point, you know, once you work the copa, the
word got out the kids making money for us. The
kid can sing the kids an entertainer. This is me
Darren and Frankie, you know, trying to evolve to where
we wanted to go. They make the phone call, You're

(01:10:12):
going to Vegas. Now, Presley didn't work for EVI us unfortunately,
but it did later. Do you want to work the
sands with the wrap back? I said, are you kidding? Yeah? Yeah.
So I go out there and uh, I start and
I'm with these guys. Now. The testing ground for me
was before I opened the Sands. They want me to

(01:10:33):
work with Sophie Tucker, America America's favorite group. Make she
rest and uh. They bring me out and said, look,
you're gonna open a show for Sophie Tucker because we
want to get a field for us. Yeah, whatever you
want to do. I opened the show at the Sahara Hotel.
It was the first time ever they've ever seen kids

(01:10:57):
coming to a club with their parents. And I'm not
talking twenty It was like hundreds of these kids with
their parents and I do what I do and they're screaming.
And when Sophie came on, they'd leave. They weren't interested.
She was really cool. At the end of the I
think the second and said, my boy, I want you
to close the show. I can't follow you, my boy,

(01:11:20):
I said, I said, it's tucking or whatever. So I
closed the show. That led me over to the Sands
Hotel with the wrap Pack. Okay, you know because so
much has changed since then, and we know even at
this late date, every entertainer has a deal with a
specific casino, although some operations are more than one casino.
All the rat Pack worked at the Sands. Oh yeah,

(01:11:45):
Jane Martin, Sammy Davis, Frank Sinatra, wherever Frank was. That's
where you wanted to work. They all worked there, And
that's where IRV and I would go when we weren't working.
We would go and what I saw stuff from Kennedy
and Monroe and the guys. I got such an education,
but it had to be at the Sands Hotel. They

(01:12:08):
owned it, They owned it. What was the education? God
tell us a couple of things. Well, you certainly learned
how to perform, or at least you had a guideline
as to the stick part um. The concept of the
fund that they had. Getting the understanding that you'd better

(01:12:29):
take those vocal lessons because those cats are singing for real.
There's no technology making you sound better didn't exist, only Fabian,
and I'll deviate quickly who they found in Philly, part
of the Frankie avalon that whole group, nice kid, great looking,
because that's what they were selling back then, you know, aesthetics. Unfortunately,

(01:12:52):
the Americans have sent that all over the world to
where it's a priority when it shouldn't be. But anyway,
even just with Fabian, when he recalls that there was
a hundred splices on the song, they took a racer blade,
they put the tape and they cut it in a
hundred pieces just to get a vocal. So what I'm
saying to you is you have to have a vocal coach,

(01:13:12):
and you have to be as good as they were
professionally in being able to stay in tune and to
sing the kind of arrangements. Uh, the whole ambiance was magical.
There was nothing like it. There was nothing like it.
You're on a bus in this broken down stadium, and
all of a sudden you're in these great nightclubs. Then

(01:13:33):
we started meeting these guys and you started getting the
input when they liked you, and you saw that behind
the scenes stuff. I mean right down to when we
all meet in the steam room at the Saints Hotel
at one in the morning in a town that had
two hundred and eighties show girls who all wanted to

(01:13:56):
be in there, and whoever was in there shared in
the enjoyment. Right, So all that I mean, by four
in the morning, we were getting haircuts by Jay Siebrin,
who's the hot guy. He fly up from l A.
We're all sitting on the lawn getting hair. Guess the
girls are waiting inside and I'm looking at these guys
that I idolized, say what a life? Right, So it

(01:14:20):
was all of that, and it was all of you know,
structuring yourself as to be as good as you possibly
could be in the professionalism that was in that town.
And that's all that that was. That was that was
the entertainment town, every lounge, every place that tough people
in the business were there. Okay, there are in show business.

(01:14:41):
Everybody knows everybody, but they're not necessarily friends. No, you're
adopted by the rat pack. You're you know, a member yourself.
Why you what does that happen? And in addition, this
was an error with very little publicity, very little story,
unlike today. Yeah, well was there. It was the reality
as good as the images. My question. Yes, yes, yes, Look,

(01:15:08):
we're all working for the same group. They're all a
part of the success Sammy, Frank, Dean. Did I profess
to know all of them well early in the game. No,
do I profess to say that I knew Dean Martin,
who was very much a loner. No, I was their respect.

(01:15:32):
Sammy got to know well, Frank, I got to know well.
But the point was there was there was this thing
of well, if you're working here with us and we
like what you're doing, the gravitas that I brought to
the table, if you will, that they were aware of,
unlike the others. As a writer, so the time you

(01:15:55):
write the Longest Day, the Tonight Show theme, you've got
this different kind of respect to him. Maybe this kid's
gonna last. And the reviews of me as a performer
started to embellish, embellish. We need him here because Carl
Cohen was my godfather. Carl Cohen ran the joint for

(01:16:16):
the guys, as did about six of them. The word
got out, we're gonna nurt you the kid. He's making
money for us at the copa where I spent years. Look, ultimately,
you learn all of us early, you know what the
whole thing about in this world is all about the money.
Don't give me its principal, all that bullshit, everything today

(01:16:40):
as it was yesterday. It's all about the money, okay.
And you learned that early. And those guys, I was
a money machine. I'm selling millions of records. I'm working
their clubs. There was no one else, you know. I
think Frankie Avalon came in a few years later. They
needed to put text us we belonged to them, now

(01:17:03):
belong we made money. They never put the muscle on me.
So Frank would be always there for me. Every time
I met him for dinner, he talked to me, trying
to teach me and say, and do you know he
wasn't an educated man in that sense. He was educated
because he read a lot and wanted to be but
he would take care. He was the greatest guy and

(01:17:23):
the greatest friend you could ever have. And if he
didn't like you, that's a whole other story. But they
protected you, okay. And you know there's an incident. I
mean it even hurts me to talk about it, because
Sinatra can do no wrong for me. I mean, he
and even Sammy, those guys were something else for me.

(01:17:45):
But I was there the night that when Howard Hughes
took the place over. You know you hear that, you
hear everything. That's it with Jimmy Riseli after my show,
Hey kid, you know we love you, and keep your
nose clean in this and then he winds up in
an oil and I'm going, what you start hearing all
of this stuff, you still getting to get the background

(01:18:06):
as to why. And I realized that if I didn't
keep my nose clean, I wasn't going to really have
any kind of career after that. And that's right. Put
the cards on the table with those guys. Okay, you
have the success very quickly. Yeah. Do you feel comfortable

(01:18:28):
in it or do you have a certain amount of
impostor syndrome. I'm very comfortable, very comfortable from day one.
You feel you belong you're unequal. I never felt so comfortable, well, inequal.
I wasn't unequal to the RAPPI I was in the business.
I was a singer and entertainer, and I was always comfortable.

(01:18:50):
I was not intimidated by them. Now you're in all
of them, but I always felt comfortable. I felt that belonged. Uh,
I learned quick. I was very aggressive and where I
wanted to go. You know, I I took two U
and fifty dollars pretty much all I had after I
bought my parents at home. I gave it to the

(01:19:11):
record company. I wanted out because I go to Europe
and it's all down to what it is was today
is today distributed distribution. My record company wasn't there go
these little towns. I see r C A Victor, r
C A Victor, UH washing machines to Victor. So I said,
the earth, you gotta be with these guys because I'm
going international. And they were in every store I go to,

(01:19:32):
and I don't see the ABC paramount. So I gave
him back. I gave him two to fifty. I bought
all my rights back, and I got very aggressive, started
a company and started making records for our say Victor,
and I said, I want to go back to Italy
because I loved that I was singing there for years.
And I signed with our C Taliana, and I started

(01:19:55):
writing with the Italians and my my in r director
was in A Morricone who as you know, became the guy,
but he was my guy. We sold four million records.
When I was there, first time ever, they had a
million seller in Italy. I went to France, started singing
in French. I did it in German, I did it

(01:20:16):
in France. So I got aggressive in terms of where
my home would be and it was our c Victor.
And that changed my life and I rode right through
that until I wrote My Way in the mid sixties. Okay,
tell us the story of you in the net. You
look so interested. Did you like her? Well, she was

(01:20:36):
America's sweetheart, literally, but you liked her, right? Were you
a fan of her? Everybody liked her. She was the
Queen Squeaky Glee. You know, she was Squeaky all right.
So we're touring and then that she's on as you know,
the whole Disney thing, and Earth says, we're taking this

(01:20:58):
girl and then on the old Okay, and I get
to knowre on the road. We all liked it, obviously.
So I'm working at. I'm working at. I got this crush.
It's no more. I'm so young and you're so old.
So we start swapping spit with all due respect. Good family.

(01:21:21):
The mother's out there traveling with us. It's got teachers,
Disney protected, and we get close. We get real close.
I'm out at the home in Encino. We're spending a
lot of time. Um Disney said, could you write an
album for you? Write some songs. Absolutely, I do the album.

(01:21:41):
We're getting very serious. Disney's now getting hot under the
collar with We don't want this kind of image. You know,
there's nothing happening there. It's puppy love, puppy love, and
they call so I get a song out of it.
I write some songs for her. We had a great relationship.

(01:22:03):
She's probably the first to hear put your head in
my shoulder because I was playing her everything. I go
to her house and then seeing these fans. They gave
her bears. It must have been two teddy bears and things.
We'd lay on these bears and sit and talk all
night at her home over there. I realized that she
did even though she wanted to get married, that that
was not going to happen. You know, because when you

(01:22:26):
look historically now and that I know I made the
right decision. Whether you're an athlete, a singer, whatever, When
a woman comes into your life and you're very successful
and focused and I want to be careful here your
I can get off the ball, and you lose a

(01:22:48):
lot of momentum because obviously you're over here. So I was,
my eye was off the ball. I was so wrapped
up and in love and I was too young, and
we talked it out and said, look, let's just be friends. Fadeo,
fade in. My agent Jack you Alarnadi Marrier. Okay, so

(01:23:09):
that's all I'm gonna tell you. I realize I'm not
gonna dig any deeper. Tell me how you're right there.
Tonight show theme. I'm in England doing a garage TV
special and they want two hours, I think, and I said,

(01:23:32):
it's a lot of music. You need some relief here?
Do we have some comedy? Now? Back then I started
two guys called Lou and Leslie Grade who later became
but when I met him that a little office. They
met me at the airport. Lue shows up at the cigar.

(01:23:53):
He takes me to his little office. I'm sitting with
his brother. We want you to do this Granado show
because it will help you with blah. We got a
band for you. Well, come on. They take me to
this little club and I see these eight guys up
there in pink suits, yellow suits. Gritz John Barry, John
Barry seven trumpet player becomes my band, and they said,

(01:24:14):
we're gonna do this Granada TV show. He said, great guys,
and they were my bookers. They booked me all over Europe.
I said, can we get some comedy? So they send
me these kinescopes and I'm sitting there all day watching comics.
This one guy drank all night. He was absolutely blitzed
by three in the morning, goes to bed, but he

(01:24:36):
had to get up the next day at eight in
the morning and host a kiddie show but just screaming kids.
Johnny Carson. I said, that's funny, So I said, yeah,
bring him over. So Johnny comes over. Got to know
him a little, you know, Johnny. No one really got
to know Johnny Well. He was brilliant what he did,
but he was It was nice enough. It was the

(01:24:56):
beginning of his career. Okay, does his job. We do it.
I fly home. He fights home. Had an office some
fifty seventh Street, and I see Johnny coming out of
this building. We're in my office. Hey Johnny, Hey, fine
bou what are you up to? John? Well, you know
what I'm doing this and looking he said, I may
take over this uh tonight show. Well, I might do

(01:25:16):
it for like two years. Ha ha ha. So two years,
I said, Okay, says, you know, I'd like to have
like a theme song, you know, for me, you know,
I said, yeah, sure. Now I had had this melody
tweaked around. Was giving it to a net that might
even have been a thing. He says, I only need
fifteen seconds. So again, I take about fourner books on

(01:25:40):
my bank account, I glue with the band, take my vision,
I put down dad and I give it to him.
That's great. So he takes it, calls me back two
days later. Any think, he says, Paul, I'm sorry, but
I can't use it. I said, why. He said, there's

(01:26:00):
a guy that's already been on the show, Sketch Henderson.
You know, he's sixties and big attitude, and yeah that's
a sad scene. But he doesn't want any kid writing anything.
He doesn't want to do it. I said, Oh Jesus, John,
He says, John, let me ask you a question. If
I gave you half of the writer's royalty and half

(01:26:23):
the publishing, would that make a difference, He said, Let
me get back to you. Well, you know the rest
of the story, right business not two years, it turns
into thirty nine and he makes a shipload of money
as I did. And that's the Tonight Show. How much
money you think you made over the life of the

(01:26:44):
Tonight Show from the theme song, Bob, you know I
should have got it? Well, I know that it made
so much that NBC stopped the the payments in terms
of they put a new infrastructure as to how much
you can make. So my guests, my guests thirty nine years,

(01:27:07):
fifteen million dollars, ten million dollars. And you have no
idea this was going to be the cash cow that
it was. Nobody did he did he he was editor
two years. That was the contract. I didn't even think
about it. You know, there's so much, you know, there's
so much that in our industry you can sit back
and envision what it's gonna be, and there's so much

(01:27:31):
you don't even see coming. You know. If that's what's
that's what's great about our business, you know, because I
first learned you do something that's gonna make them come back. Well,
you're songwriter performing, and then don't sit and listen to
the last person that tells you what to do and

(01:27:52):
think negative because you don't know. And William Goldman put
that great quote nobody knows what he's talking about here,
and so true in our business today. You look at
what we're experiencing today, and unfortunately, when I look at
the economics, what's happening. I don't know that half of
these people are even be in business next year. You know,
labels are not friendly anymore artists. I don't want to

(01:28:14):
say they're the enemy, but there here's guys, and you know,
guys like Lucien who are smart first brick to make it.
These guys five years ago were making let's say two
or Adian millions, Sony, they're both doing three of them
are all doing billion dollars today and without artists, you know,
they're not sitting there nurturing and working with new people, etcetera, etcetera.
Now we know where they have to go to make it.

(01:28:34):
You've written all about it, but it's so true. You're
no longer part of the record company business an artist
and they sit and you've got the whole Spotify thing.
Press the button. So the point is it's such a
new business. Nobody saw this coming, nor would they see.
I want to see what's gonna happen. You know, we're

(01:28:56):
probably my tenth year in the business. Every ten years
or so, something new comes along. The Beatles came along,
This came along, then Michael Jackson, you know, which is
a whole other story with my life with him. And
you know that something's coming in five years. What's that
going to be? What is the new form going to be?

(01:29:16):
Who's going to be around? As I said, my fear today,
if you're a young lawyer, if you're an agent, let's
forget about Bruno Mars and Weekend and that the echelont
that are going to be fine. What's gonna happen to
all that mid core agents, lawyers, artists. You're gonna see
some fire sales if things don't pick up. Bob a

(01:29:40):
lot in Jeopardy. Here a lot in Jeopardy. Okay, just
going back, Sure, this enormous success and then style changers.
How do you deal with this? And how do you
maintain your relevancy decade after decade after decade? Okay, you're

(01:30:01):
building on a solid foundation. That's how That's how I started.
I said, Look, I'm gonna stay true to what I do.
Could I become a heavy rock artist? Yeah, I can
play guitar. I stayed true to who I was where
I felt comfortable on a solid foundation, and I kept

(01:30:22):
changing within that structure with whoever was happening around me.
But the the criteria of it all was stay the writer.
That's where you're gonna get the attention and the respect.
Stay the writer. So I stayed true to writing, gave
stuff away. I worked at my craft as a performer,

(01:30:47):
and I just try to stay with what was happening.
But keeping my own identity to it not easy. Not easy,
you know, when you get to have my baby and
all that stuff, not that easy. Okay, So you had
my way, but if you just I used to talk
to Darren about it when we took the guitar and
the Geene jacket. You know, we'd sit around. He's a

(01:31:08):
good friend. See Bobby, why are you? Why are you
doing the Dylan thing? You can do it, but it's
not as good as what you did and who you are?
Why are you doing this? But he was very politically
and tied in. I said, just stay true to who
you are and our guys will follow us, our crowd
will follow us. I don't know that I'd be around

(01:31:29):
Bob if I wasn't the writer, I don't know, I really,
you know till I I always stayed as the writer
first and then a performer, you know. I wrote it
right through the stuff with Jackson, working with Blue Blay,
always staying with no rear view mirror, staying relevant as
you could today, the moment, the moment. You've been married

(01:31:51):
three times, Yes, you're not a monk. What have you
What have you learned about loving relationships? You never learned? Okay,
what did I learn? Well, my first wife and makes
she rests thirty nine years uh, five great children, nine grandchildren,

(01:32:11):
and it was a beautiful time in my life. We
lost her to cancer. Um. I went on to marry
twice after the first one of the second I had
a child with. I wasn't planning on getting married, and
I wasn't planning on having a child. Well, as things

(01:32:33):
evolved and I took care of business. I was a
gentleman through it all. I fell in love with this boy,
my first boy, and at the same time I just
knew that there would be no future in terms of
the concept of marriage. Okay, it's a tough business. It

(01:32:54):
really is a tough business for everybody. I'm a numbers guy,
and when you look at the numbers and a divorce
of the other fifty are miserable. So that has never changed.
As I've looked at life and looked at guys, and
all my buddies were miserable, and I wish them happiness.
But I realized that, you know, you get to a

(01:33:16):
certain point where a woman and they need to get married. Well,
if you get married for whatever reasons, and you protect yourself,
I no longer look at it as a necessity for
me to be married. I'm very I'm very happy the
way I am. I've got a great woman in my life.
I've got my son. I fought in a sense getting married.

(01:33:37):
The last two probably won't get married again. Um, you
know you don't know your wife, Bob to your meet
her in court. I've definitely learned. So you're never gonna
beat it, because God bless him. Look, if you read
Freud on his dying bed and they said to him,

(01:33:59):
you know, sigma of all the great things you've done
and you've achieved in the human mind, is the something
you couldn't figure out. And if you read the book,
he said, I can't figure what a woman wanted. I
can never figure out what a woman wanted. I'm not
slamming women. I love him, we all love them. It's
it's just if it isn't working, and if it isn't fitting,

(01:34:23):
and if you don't have a friend, and then it's
it's it's senseless. You know. There was a great study
at Harvard. They took these hundred guys from the age
of twenty on. We're gonna follow you through your life,
and we get into your seventies or eighty, want to
come back and see you, guys, which they did, and

(01:34:43):
they sat with all of them, billionaire, millionaire, pivot, pivot,
and they said, what have you learned throughout of this?
What is it you want now right now? With everything
you've achieved at your life, all of them, we only
want now some that we can live with, that cares
for us. We want someone that cares. How true? You know, men,

(01:35:08):
we're not complicated. We're not easy to live with, obviously not.
But if you don't have that right fit, then you're
gonna be married three times, which I was, you know,
and you know what it is. It's a date gone
wrong because I wasn't married that long and either one
I knew what was happening, but it just wasn't working.
Wasn't working. I guess I I gave my all to

(01:35:30):
my first wife, who is an amazing woman, loved you
dearly and such a great mother, and I had my
taste of it. You know, I've been with the best
of the guys, the Sinatras, the ali Cons, the guys
I know in Europe, all these great stockers who really
know about this. That none of them were successful. So
maybe it's like the flu. You're gonna get it every year.

(01:35:52):
You gotta fight and you get rid of it. I
can't tell you that I could give you any wisdom there,
I've just known. Okay, how about the fact you are
are ah a road guy? All performers are. Can you
keep a relationship going if you're on the road a lot?
And what is the key there? Anyone that travels, you're

(01:36:15):
in a restaurant, you travel, anybody very difficult, very different.
Now you're down to quality of time and not quantity
of time. So when you come home the quality you
put in, because it's just very tough on both parties
as you're growing. What is the secret the woman in

(01:36:39):
your life, not the guy, The woman if she's adjusting
and still feels that love and understands the guy, you've
got a chance of making it. Because if you're not giving,
and if you're not there for in all the needs
of some of the needs that they need, it's so
tough because you know, the only only the way I

(01:37:01):
looked at it was and I said to my wife,
makes she rest. I said, this is what I do
since fifteen years old. You sure you want to be
a part of this, are you sure? And I would
take her, and I would take the kids. And I
found a friend who understood. Guys just want a friend first.
That totally gets us, because it ain't e it's a none,

(01:37:23):
It's an unnatural state. It was created for the nomadic race.
The nomadic race they lived to what whatever it was,
it wasn't created for today. People go to me, hey, Paul,
let me missed the old days. It was so simple
back then. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no no no. The times weren't simple. You were simple.

(01:37:47):
I was simple because you know where you are today.
You've got a lot of brilliant, smart people now. And
I say to them, don't give me this bullshit about
oh yesterday, is if nothing's like yesterday, forget yesterday. You
need to live in this moment now where all the
intelligences get with it. Don't be judgmental about it. Whether
you're married, you're dating, you're working. This is it, baby.

(01:38:11):
The trains coming down a track step aside. Smart people today,
smart stuff happening today, and they're being smart kids today.
I'm not getting married. Oh there's too much trouble. I'm not.
I'm gonna way to wear thirty. They get it, these kids,
you know, as much as they think they've got the answer,
some of them do, right. So how are you ever
going to figure out what you're gonna do if you're

(01:38:33):
living with someone, whether you're married together, give it your
best shot, give it your best shot. You'll know, you'll
know and you won't know. No, it's just what it is. Okay.
You mentioned Michael Jackson. Yeah, tell me about your interaction
with him and what he was really like. Michael. I

(01:38:54):
knew him and his family when they come to Vegas.
It see mes, Frankie, I mean, Joe drove that whole family,
show business, show business, show nice family, you know, talented,
but we all kind of sensed in the record business
and the business itself that Michael had that thing. We
just saw it when I was doing my album for

(01:39:18):
Sony Duets album and I had everyone, Michael McDonald, Canny,
look great, writers, all kinds of people, real proud of
that album. Michael wanted to be on the album. I
wanted to do two songs with me. So he came
to see me and Carmel at home at a studio
and we sit. He spent weeks up there in my

(01:39:38):
guest house, sit and talk to business. Here's a sponge.
He just you couldn't tell his kid enough, right, he
was so into it. In the interim, thriller is about
to come out and explode, right, But I'm in the
middle of this project and he's my last artist. We
sit down, we start writing, and I get the core

(01:40:01):
of the songs done and the you know, the rhythm, piano,
some drum, but I get the core of where it
has to go. I shipped the tapes to Los Angeles
because I gotta I couldn't have a big band at
my home, and I'm gonna fly down and work with
Michael and finish the songs in Los Angeles. I get

(01:40:23):
a call, uh from the record studio in Los Angeles.
Mr Ranca, Michael Jackson, one of his people came over
and they took the tapes out of the studio. We
told him we couldn't release him, but they took him.
I said, what he took the tapes, it's not going
to be recording. Oh so now I fly down from

(01:40:47):
Garmel and I go to my lawyers at the time. Uh,
who remained nameless even though it's out there and there
were Michaels. They just I think they just took Michael.
And then my contract was done between all of us
because we're the same firm, and I had a contract
sewing up. Hey, John, and uh, what's going on? The

(01:41:09):
kids took my tapes. I gotta delivered to Sony. I'm
gonna well, you know, Paul, he's a thriller, is now
taken off and you know he wants to live. And
then they gave me all this bullshit rhetoric about what
he wants to do. Oh what am I gonna do?
I got Sony, I gotta finish, and he's breached this
contract and this is not nice. This is just not nice.

(01:41:32):
You just don't do this, I know, I said, look
at the contract he's He says to me, does it
what was in file thirty seven? But we can't find it.
I said, what, So I convene when when my brain
grew and I said, look, I'm not litigious, but you
gotta assume I want my goddamn taste back. So I

(01:41:54):
leave this office I was with and they returned to Okay,
I'm stuck. So I don't know what I put in there,
and I don't know who it was. Fade out, fade in.
Years later, Um, I get a call from Harvey Levin,

(01:42:15):
good old Harvey. There's this song out with Michael Jackson
about the name of the tour this is It. But
word is that. You know, they found these tapes at
his house. But somebody said, you wrote I said, HARVEYA,
I didn't write anything called this is It. Has just
sent it to me. So he sends it to me. Well,

(01:42:38):
the original title, Bob was I never heard I never
heard a thing. But what they did they took the
first line of the song this is it. Here I stand,
and they put called the tour this is it. They
called the bubb but they got the plumber, they got
everything is this is It? And I go, yeah, that's
the song. He said, what are you gonna do? I said, well,

(01:43:01):
this is gonna be fun because they already screwed me
the first time. Right, So I call up these these lawyers,
these guys, right, and I said, okay, this could be
real short. Okay, we're gonna fix this fast. We got
a deadline, and I said, you know what, respect for Michael,
and it putt putting behind we did. I want fifty

(01:43:23):
of everything, and if we're not done by the end
of the day, it's over. Well we got what we wanted, right,
and uh, somebody in his company called me nice gentlemen,
and he said, thank you so much for helping us
solve this. You know, we found these in the drawer,
and you know we don't. We didn't know, all right,

(01:43:46):
he said, And I found all the stuff. He says, Hey,
listen to this one. This is really a good one.
I oh, yeah, we'll play to me John. He plays
and I said, I wrote that too. Love never felt
so good? Right, he said, ship did? I said, don't worry?
Same terms. So so that was the story. Uh, karma,

(01:44:07):
I guess right. Uh there was his last records, the
I guess the the cherry on the top word got
out to Drake that there was one more song left. Okay,
I get the call. We go through all this stuff,
he says, can I come over the house. So it
comes over to my house over here. I live in

(01:44:27):
Lake Sherwood, and we meet. The experience is new. First,
I respect the guys from Toronto. I get what it is.
But you're not sitting around a piano. You're sitting around
a computer. You know. I'm I'm a guy that sits
with guys with guitars pianos, and we're talking technical now.
So I said, look, here's the song. Don't matter to me.

(01:44:48):
It's what I've done here. I said, you take it
and put your genius on it with your tech guys,
and let's see if we can break the code. And
if we do and we like it, come out. He
takes it, got good guys around him. They finished their half.
We piece it together and we have the last Michael
Jackson hit with it don't matter to me on the Scorpion.

(01:45:10):
So the point of it is, with all the bad,
bad and what they did to me back then when
I was really I'm not happy with it, it all
came around, Bob. It all came around. Well, speaking of that,
the music business is a crook business, even at this
leak dep So you started out in the real wild West,

(01:45:31):
as we say, and I need to know you know,
your parents were not sophisticated. You had to sign a
lot of bad deals. So what did you end up owning?
What did you end up getting paid? What went on
with the money? Not a great question. I got screwed,
left it right, uh irb And I got screwed. Left

(01:45:55):
ring to two cents. Uh So, hundred thousand copies that
sold five hundred thousand copies Europe. It's number one that
got a black But everywhere you turned, you're getting screwed. Okay,
I made some money, you know, I still when I
started performing, and the royalties are coming in. Uh look

(01:46:18):
for a kid that had nothing and grew up in
a home for real, humble and modest, and you're looking
at checks coming in from b M I for a
hundred thousand. I trusted them more than I trusted the
record companies. You're working for promoters. Money is going every
which way, every which way, they're always gonna screw you.

(01:46:41):
It's not it's not unlike the motion picture business with
the voodoo economics. Come on, it's never changed. Yeah, I
got screwed left and right back then, but grateful made
some nice investments. But we're always chasing somebody, always trying
to get even today. You know, come on, we know
what the injuries. What it is today, same bullshit, more lights,

(01:47:04):
that's all. You know. You look at the promotion business,
touring business years ago. You know, I'm worked Vegas consistently.
I've worked there right through every regime, right through the
Howard Us with the boys, Steve Win all of that. Everybody.
Oh he's got a Vegas sick Oh him and Wayne

(01:47:25):
Newton that town. Oh we won't go near there. Oh
today they go on the road. I'll do each other.
They come home with maybe ten. All of a sudden,
somebody decides, you know, and I knew Renee and Selene
and fellow Canadians, well we can make more money there

(01:47:46):
because they're gonna pay for this and they're gonna pay
for that. Oh it maybe. Oh what a beautiful place
this this than Elton comes in. Everybody's going to Vegas.
Why it's all about the money. But when I started,
you know, all of us, the everleage, and let's try
we we made some money. We made you know, My

(01:48:08):
first big date was ten thousand dollars at Freedom Land
for the second DOORFS. I've been to Freedom right, so
now I'll never forget this. They send the contracted to
the g a C. The agency, the guys, no, that's
not possible. And instead of ten thousand, he made it
out for like a thousand, and there homes killed him.

(01:48:28):
He said one. That was my first big money date
because when I was working the COPA or I was
working Vegas, it's making fifteen thousand a week ultimately, but
I was doing two shows a night, six weeks in
a row. And if you didn't like it, the boy said,
out right, But you were always chasing money. You're always

(01:48:51):
getting screwed left and right. And it's unfortunately a lot
of money around today, some big numbers out there, Bob
what of managers and a lot of these acts and
what they're making. I wouldn't complain if I were them.
This is real money. They're printing money today, right, and
our concern is what's it going to be next year

(01:49:11):
if things don't get straightened out? Okay, so who owns
your songs and your records? Today? I bought my catalog
and my stuff for two yo dollars years ago. I
owned it, both the songs and the records, the records
and the publishing. That's correct. I had sold them portion

(01:49:35):
of to uh A company back in the seventies. But
since I started so young, fifty years is over, it's terminating,
so I'm getting stuff back, okay. But the record side
of it, I've always owned it, So I was able
today and answer to your question, make a deal with
Primary Wave and with Larry Mistell and his group, and

(01:49:59):
happy to do so because what they can do. And
that's why everybody you know, you've written around it, Dylan whoever.
The multiples are crazy. The multiples are crazy. Everybody's selling
and I get it. It's so smart. It's so smart.
I think, forget about everything else. Get that money today,

(01:50:22):
because you've got families and kids fighting over it. If
you're not in cash flown today's world, you've got problems.
Get it and enjoy it, and just enjoy it. So
I made a deal with Larry. We're partners, and I'm
happy to be there. I'm absolutely happy to be there. Okay,
is he did you sell him fifty or a hundred?
Fifty's my partner. I didn't want to sell it all.

(01:50:47):
I want to be in the game. I want to
be in the game for my son. I want to
be in the game for me because TikTok, who saw
this coming, put your head on my shoulder. Now is
like from this TikTok, which I'm know you're unaware of. Guy,
I can't believe it. They know what to do with
all of that. I don't have offices and people in
all I sit back and wait for a phone call.

(01:51:09):
But they know what to do. They're smart, and that's
their game and they're in it. They're only gonna help
me more than I could help myself. Okay, So, at
this late date, you've stayed in the game for sixty
plus years, and that's an achievement. Literally almost nobody has.
So are you running on fumes or there's still some

(01:51:30):
goals you want to accomplish the time you have left.
I'm rather you tell me about the time I have left. Um,
you know, I'm doing a lot of pr for the
album lately. Uh you know what I tell him? Some
guy comes up to me says, you know, I'm thinking
of retiring. I say to them, you already have you

(01:51:52):
already have. I don't know what that number thing is, Bob.
You know, I know about my energy. I know that
my number one job for the last year and a
half has been my health. My health because we're all
living this life lottery, every one of us. It's a
life a lot It is so crazy out there. I
just keep going. They throw dirt on you if you

(01:52:13):
stand still. I just have to keep going, staying healthy,
dealing with the energy goals, what goals I want to get.
I want to get the doc done. I want to
roll it into Broadway, and then I don't care. I'm
playing with the house is money and it's good for me.
I make more money now touring. I'm humbly submitting than

(01:52:33):
I ever did. I played these stadiums and casinos, I'm
doing these theaters. I'm going to Israel, I'm going to Italy.
I'm going to France. I'm selling out. What smuck would
walk away from that? Who? You know? What? What do?
I've watched guys sit there Sinatra waya door, and and
then Tony, God bless them, they paint okay, and then

(01:52:56):
some they got trains, and they've got flowers, and enough
already after you watch television, and after you've read all
the books you're gonna read. I see smart guys die.
I don't want to be that because it's not in
my gene to do that. So when you say goals,
I don't have the same goals I had years ago. No, no, no, no,
I don't have those goals. I'm gonna keep doing what

(01:53:17):
Anka does. My audience is there, I'm gonna keep doing it,
and I'm not gonna base my money, just my life
on just money, and I'm gonna play how I can.
In this whole scene, I don't look at you know,
I don't look at anyone around me or anything in
life as anyone beneath me. I've never ever done that.
No one is beneath us. You get these artists today

(01:53:39):
who are way out there, ain't gonna ever work. So
I don't have any goals left. I have a goal
when I read all these medical journals, I read all
this stuff. I'm gonna make a hundred if I can.
You know, you look at the new stats where these
kids born after two thousand, they know they'll live to
a hundred fifteen. You and I at our age, the
way medicine is going, it ain't easy to die, Bob.

(01:54:00):
It just stayed easy. So I'm gonna keep healthy. And
you know what's kept me young, it's keeping myself together
to know I got to go on that stage and
be straight and be coherent and remember the lyrics that
helps me do what I do. So the goals are gone,
you know, the goals are gone. I've written the book

(01:54:21):
we did find I want to get this doc done
and then I want to keep going on that stage,
just like Tony did. Okay, maybe it's two years too long,
God bless him. Maybe Frank stayed a little, but I
know because I've spoken with him. They want to die
on the stage. They love it. They love it, and
it's good to us. It's so good to us. Well, Paul,

(01:54:43):
you're quite an amazing rock and tour. This has been
wonderful and we really have only scratched the surface, but
I think we've come to the end of the feeling
we've known on this particular podcast. So this has really
been wonderful, and it's amaz easing to me that you're
you know, the way we used to say you know
your hip to what's going on. That's a negative connotation

(01:55:06):
forty years ago people don't really say him or but
you are. I'm stop it. You're just not dropping names.
You know what's going on. It's very impressive, So thanks
so much for spending the time. Hey Bob, listen. Can
you keep doing what you're doing, man, because look at
that lyric again and you'll know when you wrote that
com and I'll send it to you. Thank you. Okay,
because my dad when I left home said, never be

(01:55:28):
the smartest guy in the room. Never be nice and
don't trust, but never be smart. What you do for us,
your followers and your fans. No one has the balls
to say and write about And I learned from guys
like you. I learned from guys and I'm not kissing
your ask because I don't have to because you know
it and the industry knows it. Don't you stop and

(01:55:50):
you live and breathe it right whether you're on vacation,
I'll never stopped that. People talk about retirement. Retirement is
death death. Why would I want to retire? I know it,
and you know it. You've got in terms of writing, Yeah,
we don't write the same kind of stuff, but it's
the same thing. If I don't write for a couple
of days I start to fall apart. I said, I
gotta write something. I got something. You know, that's the

(01:56:11):
game I'm in. That is the game, and you're winning
at it. That's the name of it. Bob, thank you
so much. Listed parts has been great. Until next time.
This is Bob left sex

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Bob Lefsetz

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