Peter Rudge

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left's podcast. My
guest today is Uber Manager. In his tenure, he's looked
after the Stones, The Who, Leonard skinnerd James Peter. Good
to have you here. Nice to be here, Bob. Finally,
thank you very much for inviting me. And where exactly

(00:29):
are you right this very second? Right now, I am
in what is presently called Rhode Island and the plantations,
but it's about to be just called Rhode Island, I understand. Um.
I kind of moved to America in the early seventies
and got my green card way back in seventy three,

(00:50):
and subsequently married a young lady from a from American
lady who resided in Rhode Island, and we bought a
house up here about thirty years ago in a wonderful
part of the country, very very pretty. Now we've had
previous conversations. You've spent time in Australia. Was that just
when we were emailing or you all? I think that's

(01:11):
when we were emailing, Barba. I mean, I'm I'm born
in Britain, in the Midlands, Wolverhampton, where Slade came from.
Um and it's rather like the equipment of say Akron.
It's where Goodyear tires are made in Britain. Um And
I spent my early youth in Britain. And I first

(01:34):
came to America when I was twenty three and got
a green card shortly afterwards and have been an American
resident ever since, although just by some strange quirk as
life can present. UM, I've tended to be have most
of my business has been centered in the UK, so

(01:55):
I've kind of gone across the Atlantic backwards and forwards
for many years. Let's go back to the Midlands. What
did your parents do for a living? UM? My father
was um a farmer. He was kind of um, you know,
he couldn't hold a job, Bob. We moved around the
country frequently every two or three years. And he was

(02:17):
one of these guys who was brought in when farms
were kind of struggling. He would be asked to come
in there and try and get it in shape, you know,
replant the fields and etcetera. Etcenter, bring cows in instead
of sheep. But he he wasn't the easiest of guys. Um.
And we moved a lot around the country. I would think,

(02:38):
on an average every two or three years my mother,
bless her. Um was a wonderful woman. She actually was
a florist, was a gardener and of some repute, and
was one of the first gardeners in the fifties and
sixties to kind of look at Japanese flower arranging, which
was kind of the cutting edge world of flour arrangement

(03:00):
in those days, an event and did very well, exhibited
all around the country, run flower shop, and actually was
part of the team that did the flowers for Princess
Margaret's wedding in Westminster Abbey. So I had a tough
act to follow. That's certainly a flower in her cap.
Was he more of a businessman or did he get

(03:21):
his hands dirty? No, he got his hands dirty. He
wasn't a businessman at all. Um. He we didn't have
a good relationship, Bob. I mean, I'm one of those
guys and I think there's a lot in the music
business and there's must be a story there who didn't
have a particularly happy childhood because of him. I as
a result of not really getting on with him, I

(03:44):
went to I was put into this kind of boarding
school when I was about thirteen, and frankly after that
I went to university and after that I went down
to London and I never really lived at home after
I was thirteen. Um, we didn't have a good relationship
my father and I. Okay, so how many kids were
in the family. There are three of us. There's myself

(04:07):
the oldest, there's my sister who's two years younger than me,
and then my brother who is fifteen years younger than me.
Came very late when my mother was forty nine. Actually,
I think, um, yeah, and that my brother that lives
in Britain in in the UK, as does my sister,
up in a place called Ilkley, Yorkshire, very very nice

(04:28):
and my parents funny enough, my father passed away a
number of years ago at ninety six, and my mother
passed away only two years ago at a hundred and two.
So um, hopefully I've got good g right. If the
COVID doesn't get you, you're gonna be well. Certainly we're
in a bubble here, and you know, Rhode Island has

(04:49):
got just about the least kind of cases in the
country right now. Of course it's the smallest state, but
they she's done a remarkably good job, the governor here, um,
and people seemed to be being sensible as opposed to
much of the rest of the country right now. So
growing up traditionally the oldest child or the hopes and

(05:13):
dreams of the family or in that child, did you
feel that or were you so estranged from your father
that wasn't a factor. More of the latter. My father,
you know, I'm trying not to be cruel, but he
wasn't very successful ending he did did. Uh. He treated

(05:36):
my mother terribly. He treated me terribly. Um, he couldn't
hold a job down. He wasn't an educated man. He
came from a very very interesting family. I'm from a
very interesting family. I think my great great great grandfather
started Rudge Bicycles, which was quite an esteemed bicycle brand

(05:56):
in um in Britain and has traveled the world. And
you know, it was bought by Rally then brought by
bs A. But my great great grandfather drunk it all
away and so we had The family fell in very
tough times. My father, according to many people, and was
very quite jealous of me. I was, you know, fortunate,
and I was good at sport. UM, I was relatively bright. UM,

(06:22):
I did very well at school at Rugby. UM I
kind of got an England trial, and funny enough, the
day I got the England Under sixteen trial, Um, it
was in Leicester, which is not far from Wolverhampton from
where and where I went to school in Ludlow, the
boarding school, and my father didn't want to go, but
my mother insisted and my mother went to went to

(06:46):
see the game to watch me and my father sat
in the car in the parking lot. So oh god. Yeah,
So that has been someone of a motivating for me
throughout my life. Um. You know, one of the funny
things on the iron is of it was that I
didn't learn to drive till I was fifty in fact

(07:07):
when I came up here, because you know, I was
born into the music business. I was still a kid
when I was started with the who I didn't know
anything but Limos, I mean Limo around London or Limit
around New York. I mean what else was it a
better Limos? And I never learned to drive. And so
at fifty, on my mother's birthday, I passed my test.

(07:27):
So he didn't learn to drive until you were fifty
fifty because um, that was one the one thing my
father told me and my mother that he could do
that I couldn't do. So I thought, well, instead of
like learning to I won't drive. I'll prove to him
that I can exist quite well and be hopefully relatively
successful without driving. So I didn't drive until we moved

(07:49):
up to what is essentially the country. Um. One of
those odd circumstances in life. So he obviously played quite
a factor in my life. My mother I do with Bob.
She was a wonderfully creative, very talented. To the day
she died, she asked me when I was going to
get a proper job. She could never understand because when
I got in the business, it wasn't a job, It

(08:11):
wasn't an industry. It was well like a cottage industry
of anything. And you know, we went along, we were
kind of making up the rules. Um as we went along.
You came of age, uh in the pre Beatle era,
shall we say, the Beatles really kind of hitting sixty
two in England, sixty four in America. Were you a
music fan? I was. I was at this boarding school

(08:35):
and I was huge Rolling Stones fan, right and my
best friend was a huge Beatles fan. But I wasn't
a massive you know, I don't think there were music
fans quite like there are now who were actually like,
are so knowledgeable. So also was an incredible elects I
never came across it was. It was it was slightly

(08:56):
a different dynamic, so Peter music for and we're not
to seem not as knowledgeable in your era as they
are now. You were saying, yeah, I think so. Maybe
it's because music as we know it, Bob didn't exist, certainly,
not in the critical mass that it does now. It
was very early, it was, it was just beginning to evolve.

(09:17):
I mean, the first record I bought was a seven
inch single was by Del Shannon right run Around right
then I think it was le Roy Van Dyet walk
on By. And then I discovered Bill Haley and Rock
around the Clock and that was the fifth is and
you know, and we were at down and then the
Beatles and the Stones and the so called English invasion

(09:40):
kind of begun and started to kind of travel the
world the west, the West coast. I think American sound
kind of started. The birds and people, Buffalo, Springfield. That
was a little later. Dylan was there or there, but
it wasn't like on the level to any extent by
any comparison to now. So I and for me anyway,

(10:05):
I wasn't aware of that intensity of feeling of kids
of young age during at that time it was in
some respects it was more than ever it has been
ever since, and which it sadly isn't now the soundtrack
to a cultural movement, um a youth movement which I

(10:26):
think culminated at Woodstock. That was kind of when the
major which was a music a musical, sociological and political
statement that transcended pure music. But in those preceding ten years,
it was a much smaller world. I feel that from
what I recall now. Okay, so you were in boarding school.

(10:48):
You're obviously a uh an athlete in many different venues,
and you were a good athlete. Were you the kind
of kid who got along with everybody and a lot
of friends who you're of a loner or what kind
of kid were you? No? I think I did. I
think I got along with everybody. I mean I I
was head boy at school, captain of rugby, captain of cricket,

(11:09):
a kind of things. I was an athlete, which put
me in good stead. And I believe that the one
of the primary reasons that I got into Cambridge was
because I was a good athlete. And one of the
reason that I got into the music business was because
when at Cambridge after my first year, I blew my
knee out. Um, so, you know, I was pretty social then.

(11:33):
I think as I've got older, I've got less social.
I think that's part of getting older. I've noticing that myself.
I think you're right, Bob, I think you have less
patience and less everything and if everything's ground dog day,
you've seen everything, so you've become kind of a little
bit more cynical and less forgiving. But no, I was.
I was pretty social back in the day. I have

(11:54):
to say I felt I was. I mean I always say,
you know, guitarists have a guitar, singers have a microphone,
managed just have a mouth. So well, that's why I
was asking people think just people think that, you know,
the skill is just knowing a lot about music or
being able to plot a course. We're getting along with
people is the first criterion. But how devastating was it

(12:16):
for you that you blew out your knee? It was
a crushing I mean, really was. I mean, I love rugby.
It was you know, rugby and music. I was there
and but I was passionate about rugby, and it left
a massive void in my life obviously. And although I
was a music aficionado, a fan, and I bought music

(12:37):
and followed it under the bed sheets like so many
people in Britain with Radio Luxembourg and everything else after
lights out, you know, the then back in, you know,
all those things that kids did in those days to
get the kind of music, and all the imports shows
of the American bands. I mean, I still had that,
but it left a huge hole in my life because

(12:58):
I'm kind of probably already gathered pretty hyper um and
and you know, I need things to do, I need
things to occupy myself. So what we did, my friend
and I we said, okay, we looked around at Cambridge
and it's a number of independent colleges, almost like like
the States. Here it's it's a federal system, it's and

(13:21):
all the colleges were independent of one another and had
no um coordinated entertainment budgets. All the colleges booked all
their things separately individually. There was no kind of social
secretary or no entertainment's board or whatever they have, And
so we thought, there's a good chance it's a bit
of a good business here, and so we formed an

(13:42):
agency corp Mono because by that time the English folk
scene was becoming really kind of cool and the incredible
string band and bands of that nature. We started to
kind of like come, you know. We started to follow
and we started to book them around the other universities. Um,
the Pink Floyd we from Cambridge. I got friendly with Gilmore.

(14:03):
Gilmour was in a band called the Wall Flowers. He
wasn't even the guitarist, he was the bass player and
they played in our local public cry. So we started
to get the field for booking stuff. We also managed
the band. We put a band together. My first band
was called the Pineapple Truck and we tagged it UM

(14:24):
even though and back then you needed a tagline the
band with the highest I que in the world. And
we managed to get um interest. We got a story planted.
I god knows how you do it. You know, when
you're young, you don't think, you just act um. And
we we got a story plan and as a result
we got this kind of a and r rushed to

(14:45):
come up. They all came up to see this band,
who are terrible. Um, but I I remember and it's
a funny story. And it's quite separate from my relationship
later with Mick Jadder, but one of the things we
decided to the lead singer. We had a kid called
Ricky Hopper. Best friend at school was a Chris Jagger,
happened to be mixed young brother. We thought, let's get

(15:06):
him in. Let's get him in. We got a Jagger,
we got the i Q, we got everything, and we
kind of spun this story. And and a well known
he was a journalist then he came a playwright and
an author of some repute. Michael Frayne was sent up
by the Sunday Times to do this piece on on
this band of Pineapple Truck, and you know, I just
fell in love with it. I just thought, this is fantastic,

(15:30):
you know, orchestrating these things, tweaking, um, this is fantastic,
and you know, putting on concerts, and I just fell
in love with the business. And I think inasmuch as
the music, I fell in love with the business because
it was you could there were no rules, there was
no structure that it was like you had to follow

(15:51):
your instincts and it was just for me, It just
it was just hit a sweet spot and That was
the beginnings of my love, my my, my, my, my,
my involvement in music from the other side of the
of the room, as it were, the management, the business sidemen.
We promoted a lot of shows at the Cambridge Corner Exchange,

(16:14):
and I mean I loved all the American bands, so
we had it. We bought over It's a Beautiful Day.
I'm Butterfly. We had their um who else, We had
the Electric Prunes. We toured w all those old California
bands as well as the as well as obviously the
String Band. I remember we booked her Anosaurus Rex and

(16:35):
I had them at the Cambridge Corner Exchange and actually
sat there watching it. Mark Bowl and fell asleep on
stage when he was singing. I mean, you know with
me it was him and Mickey hook the two of
them before Mark wentz you know, and I hooked up
with Mark later attract records. Um but and that was it.
And so what happened was I booked the Who or

(16:57):
we booked the Who just for one second? Okay? Uh.
Even though it's easy to tell the story, it's not
so easy to do to start an agency in booking
at different colleges. Do you have an entrepreneurial spirit or
was it another member of the so called we. No,
I think it was me, my my, my, my mate

(17:19):
who did it with me? John Willis, um wonderful guy,
was still friends. He went on to the head of
Channel four. He's made documentaries, he's the head of Bathta,
he was chairman of Bathta for a number of years.
He was. I think I was probably more entrepreneur than him. Actually, Bob,
I kind of like, yeah, I had that at that point.

(17:41):
You have no fear, um, just no fear you just
as a young person, you kind of don't you don't
you don't think it through drilling down a little bit,
was the money to book these towards your personal money
or the school's money? Now our personal money? We actually,
we both know being a culture promoter is a like
to go broke. So how did how did you manage

(18:04):
to stay in business? Well? Hold on, now, then when
we booked these shows, remember hold on, no, I see
what you're saying. When we booked shows for the may balls,
which are the big kind of balls on graduation balls here,
that was the college money. We took a percentage. Okay,
when I promoted concerts at the Cambridge Town like Cambridge

(18:25):
Call Exchange like the Prunes, or we we did family
with Roger Chapman. That was our own money. We we
just it was again back to your point, it was relationships.
There was one agency in particular that would sell to us.
Some agencies wouldn't sell to young college kits without you know,
with bank accounts with no money in them. One agency

(18:46):
that sold to us, who I cultivated with John Willis,
was called the Brian Morrison Agency. I remember now one
thirty two chairing cross Road. That agency represented, amongst others,
the Pink Floyd, the Pretty Things and a number of
other bands. There was the bookers there, one being Steve

(19:06):
O'Rourke who went on to manage the Pink Floyd, another
Tony Howard who went on to manage the Soft Machine,
and um a guy called Brian Murray who managed actually
Mungo Jerry. You'd probably know who they are. Yeah, yeah,
you got it. Um. But they sold to us and
they taught me some lessons very early on, some big lessons.

(19:29):
I remember we booked a band called Jimmy James and
the Bag of Bonds into Cambridge Corn Exchange. I remember
we paid a hundred fifty thousand, hundred and fifty pounds
was the fee we paid them. No back ends in
those days. Um, And for some reason, I don't know
whether we blagged it or what, we didn't pay the

(19:49):
full amount of money to the agency ahead of the show.
You know, as you know, normally you have to, especially
if you're an unknown promoter. So we agree, need um
to settle with the band's manager on the night. So
we go in and I go and say, all right,
I've got I've got your money already. Here's the hundred

(20:09):
and fifty. And the guy said, when we're only getting
hundred and twenty five, I said, no, that here's the content.
So I learned about buying and selling very early on.
That That was Steve A raw Bless his heart, and
he became Yeah, he became a lifelong friend until he
sadly passed away. Um. Okay, just like okay, we're in
like sixty seven, sixty eight. Uh, this was I was

(20:32):
a camera from sixty five to sixty eight. Yes, okay,
A side question, because the Incredible String band was big
at that time, fell completely off the radar. Is that
a sound that could ever come back? Or it was
just a moment in time. It was a little bit

(20:56):
at a moment in time like Donovan and listen, it
was a little kind of a little hippie you know.
Um two great musicians, Mike Williams and Mike Heron, great musicians,
and there were them. Was like the Fairbook Convention. We
booked them as well. There are a number of those
man's not quite like the Incredible String Band, but they

(21:17):
kind of bridge the gap, I suppose in some ways Bob,
between real real folk and things like the Fairpool Convention.
Because that time you had Bertie and and John Renborne
were really doing well. There was the folk thing. There
was a girl called Julie Felix in Britain, obviously in
America because I remember my record collection at Cambridge had

(21:37):
things like Tim Buckley, had things like Tim Harden, had
things like um, oh God, Jesse Winchester. I remember that
was a particular I liked that music, and obviously that
you know, the Bob Dylan and co um So I
don't know whether it could come back quite in the
same incarnation, but I think there's always and for any

(22:00):
type of music, how big its footprint can be. I
don't know. They were great to stream and it was
quite unique, right, they certainly had a moment. Okay, so
you booked the Who, I interrupted you. Oh yeah, well,
so I booked the Who. We booked the Who for
the price mayble, and we pay them four hundred We
got them for four hundred pounds, which was like probably

(22:22):
four million now, four hundred pounds for the Who to
play and this was sixty eight I think sixty seven
or sixty eight um. And then on the morning of
the show I get a telegram as they were called then.
It was Cable as we've known America from Kit a
kit Lambert Um, dear Mr Rids, Mr Willis, it is

(22:46):
with sad, great sadness and greatest may that we're uf g.
Keith Moon has been the drummer has been taken sick
Vladi bl and we're unable to fulfill tonight's function. Bard.
Now we were like the Who were like I was
a massive hoo fan. I love the well it begs,
the begs the question were you a martyr a rocker?

(23:07):
Did that even apply a cambridge? It didn't really, Honestly,
I didn't really feel either way about it. In fact,
I kept away from both of them because they were
always in fight, so I didn't actually I didn't wear
any colors. It didn't that I wasn't aware of it.
When I was at Cambridge it was more mark. We

(23:28):
were kind of marching against the bomb and things like that.
The you know, we were more in that world in
those days, CND and everything. Um. But anyway, so I thought, well,
and they can't do that to us, what are we
going to do? This is our big moment. And as
you do when you're two, I jumped on a train
and said, I'm going down to London. I'm going to
go and talk to this guy Lambert. They can't do this.

(23:49):
This is day of, day of, morning of, and I said,
they can't do this. Um. And so I was just
angry because I didn't know. We I think we actually
got the family to replaced them, not for four hundred,
but we got. We knew we gotta go. I was like, yeah,
I'm going to show these people they can't mess with
this like this just not right and you do these things.
And I've gone on the train. I walked into Track

(24:11):
Records and there was kid Lambert and bless his heart,
because normally if someone like me came on, I wouldn't
see them. I don't as they get rid of them.
Lambert though, you know, we'll get into it later is large.
Was a larger than life character. And I walked in
there and he says, look, it's terribly sorry. And he
had this doctor's note and all these things and everything,

(24:32):
and I suddenly look over his shoulder. I see a
wall map. You know those kind of war maps you
do weather the whole month is left, and I see
on the day of our May the fifteenth May ball,
it says who Isle of Dogs video? Shoot for dogs.
There was a song. I said, he's not sick. They're
doing a video and he fesst up. Kid fesst up,

(24:54):
he said a little. And you know, I didn't do anything.
I'm as a twenty one year old kid and dad,
you know. He said, we're making up. We'll play for
you next year. I said, well, we're not going to
be a Camidge. I'm graduating. He said, don't worry. He
said whatever, whenever you need the who, whenever you want
to promote, will do it. And there was no legal
action or anything like that. It was just those I

(25:15):
don't know. For me, it was an adventure, but um
turn the clock forward, just a tiny tad and I'm
preparing for my um um, I'm I'm writing to people
in the music business for a summer job. Because my
ambition when I left university was not to go in

(25:37):
the musics. It was to go into the civil Service,
the foreigns, the Foreign Service. I wanted to be a diplomat,
and I wanted to be our Man and Havanna, and
I wanted whatever the John the Carrier Hero and so
I picked three people that I thought I would love
to spend the summer working for. One was Lambert Okay

(26:00):
Track because they were really doing something special those days,
obviously Hendrix, the Who Um primarily John's children, Mark Pole
and Bloody but Um. The other was Andrew Oldham at
a Media because I love them. That was The Stones
and people forget Now but the Small Faces um and
Chris Blackwell at Ireland Traffic was a big favorite band

(26:23):
of mine, and and I kind of new Spencer Davis
a little bit and so um that I wrote three letters.
I heard nothing back for about three or four weeks,
and one day I'm in my room at Cambridge and
there's a knock on the door. Um, and hello, Mr

(26:43):
Lambert sent me, and I said, yeah, Mr kill Lambert, Yeah,
and um, I said. He said, well, why why have
you coming? Well? You wrote him a letter, he said,
asking for employment, but you didn't sign it and he
didn't know how to contact you. But he guessed because
of what I had said in the letter that it

(27:04):
was the person at fitzwilliam College, Cambridge, who because I
I detailed, you know how we'd met in the over
the WHO booking fall and through UM. He said it
must be you, he said, but I obviously it was
so tired. I was writing these letters and four o'clock
in the morning, cramming for exams and UM. To cut
a long story short, I went down to uh London.

(27:28):
I met with Kit again at track and this was
kind of May June or something. He hired me and
I said, what I'd like to do, you know, take
the summer off. I want to, you know, go down
to Morocco and do what all students do. UM. And
then he said, well, let's start October. One October the
first nineteen sixty seven started track records twenty pounds a week. Either, Wow,

(27:51):
that's it, great, fantastic, So off we when I went away,
the summer went to Morocco, did my thing, got back
to London, went to take six, bought a snazzy white
lip jacket and everything turn up. A trap records on
October the first, at ten o'clock or nine o'clockwards something
in the morning. No one there. Of course, eventually someone
staggers in around eleven and they look at me and said,

(28:14):
well who here, said, well, Kit Lambert employed me. I'm
starting a trap rugglers the day. And everyone looked to
me kind of like, oh, yeah, right, and you'll have
to wait for Kris Stamp to come in. Kids in
Seattle right now with Hendrix, and that's eight hours ahead.
We won't behind, we won't be able to get him.
So Stamp comes in around lunchtime. He said, you know,

(28:35):
you better sit there and wait till I speak to Kit.
I I don't know. He didn't tell us, and everyone's
really weird. They look at me, really Sanath, and this
isn't very pleasant. And then eventually, at about five o'clock
that day they get Kits and kids says, oh my god,
yes I did hire him. Of course I forgot. Yes
he's fine, he's the boy from Cambridge and what I

(28:55):
And they said, okay, you're hired. You And what I
didn't realize that Kit was gay and the kids primary
pickup line when he went around the cruising the clubs
was I'll give you a job. So I was one
of many who had turned up saying that Kit had
promised them a job. And of course, you know, there
was no job, but I actually it was real. So

(29:18):
and that's it, and I that was my kind of
summer job. I started October the one, and I was
going to work through till the end of December because
the civil servicing Sam's didn't take place until January. There
was going to be a you know, just a temporary job.
So what happened? Now you're there? What do they give you? Okay, oh,

(29:39):
absolutely nothing to do the first day, just sending out
envelopes like every intern gets. But life is a lot
about luck and circumstance, isn't it. And so it happened
that when I was there in nine sixty eight, the
who were in IBC Studios in Portland Place recording and

(29:59):
our well called Tommy. I don't I don't want to
make a big deal about this, but the job you
said was October one, six seven, but really was oct
Correct sixty eight. Sorry, yes, sorry, yes, that's right. Um
so um they were doing the who were doing? To
tell me so obviously when you sit around with at

(30:21):
that moment, Kit Who had a lot of faults And
I know Bill went through a lot of this with
you on his podcast about Kit. But there was another
side to Kit that was pure genius. Um. He's like
many people in this world that we live in the
world of art, a tragic genius Um faults, warts and all.

(30:43):
I maintained that would not have been a Who without
Kid because he had the vision. He had that Z
thing that drove Pete Townsend um. And I think Pete
would acknowledge that to you now he has to me recently,
Uh that without Kick came up with so many of
the ideas, the breaking of this behind anyway, that Kit

(31:06):
was producing the record in the studio and he was
saying one day, and as as he would in France,
he said, would you try and check out some opera
houses for me? Um he went to Kamide. You must
know about opera um go and bok So. So I thought, right, well,
this is the who and Um, let me see what
I can do. I went around, I talked I hustle

(31:30):
and I checked I phone, and the end result was
that we played at the Colosseum in London, which is
home to the English National Opera, in Saint Martin's Lane,
and that was one of the first performances of Tommy ever.
We went on and played a number of concerts around
Europe and they were all successful. The concerned about in

(31:52):
Holland the elease a theater in Paris or prestigious non
prestigious concert tours or venues which catered more mostly to opera,
not to content, not to popular music, and it was
kind of a big deal. Um, So they said, well,
why don't you go to We'd like to send you

(32:13):
to America. And he said, there's two things. One is,
you know, go over there and see if you will
find an opera house in New York. And I thought yeah.
And the other thing is that we've got our contract
with our agent is over and everybody is coming around
because the who were hot, they were about to break everything.

(32:34):
They were kind of like, you know, they were moving
from the three thousand to the five thousand to the
eight thousand capacity venues. Everyone knew they were gonna pop
and so all the big agencies were coming to take
a look, but we were with this guy, Frank Barcelona.
He's a really good agent and he's got a small
kind of boutique agency called Premier Talent. But William Morris

(32:55):
wants them. This one wants and that one wants them,
and so you should take me eatings with him and
see what we can do. And so I got on
the plane of v C ten and I flew into London,
into New York and the first time I went was
to Frank Barcelona's office to meet him up at two
D West fifty seventh Street, and within like an ary

(33:20):
had me hooked. I just felt, you know, that this
guy was really something. He had a great act, but
you could just tell there was something special about him.
I then went and met other agents. It's funnily enough,
one of the agents I met at William Morris who
was attempting to get take the band from Frank, was
Steve Lieber. Steve Leeber was, yeah, Steve Lever was. It

(33:43):
was Steve Lieber and Jim Taft. Jim Taft sadly passed
away very young age, but yeah, Steve Leeber was really
hustling me. Now, you couldn't find more different people than
Steve Lieber and Frank Barcelona. But I went back and
they were offering reduced commissions and things like that, and
a t I was saying, you'll do it for this,
and I just I don't know. I had a gut film.

(34:05):
I called Chris back, Chris stamback because he tended to
handle that side of it more and kit the records.
I said, I think we should stay with Frank Varcelona.
He's a great agent. He really knows I got. I
just get a great feel, he really gets the who.
And I saw the rest of his roster and I
saw a little bit. I mean, I didn't know him
as well as I got to know him. And so

(34:26):
we stayed with Frank. And the other thing was that
I managed to get on the phone the general manager
when I was there. I was twenty three, I think
of the Metropolitan Opera House, and it was a guy
called Herman Crawitz, who later became known as being Barishnikov's manager,
and he blessed his heart, agreed to see me. The

(34:50):
guy who ran the met in those days was Sir Rudolph,
being an Englishman, and he was fascinated by the fact
that this guy was coming and trying to get the
Who to play the Trobln Operas. No one had played
the Metropoln Operas other than opera people in that that time.
No one even thought about who weren't the biggest when
you know, with it was Sinatra or Presley or some

(35:10):
of those people, you could understand there was maybe a conversation,
but no, it was it was the Who and Rudolph
being we've we we blanked it and we got it.
And on July seventh, um, you know, um that sixty nine,
I think seven seventy, July seven seventy, it was new

(35:31):
action that wise Bill Graham presents the Who at the
Metroboln Operas with two shows. I think it's actually says
on the post that doesn't it last performance ever of Tommy?
I think it did. I think it did. David Birds,
I saw that the previous spring they did the Spring,
and previously they did the Spring and then they did
the Fall for a week at the fillmore East at
the film. Well yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, but this this

(35:53):
does beg the question of something you mentioned earlier. Uh,
in August they played Woodstock. Needless to say, the movie
turns them into superstars. Did you go to Woodstock or
very interestingly, Um, one of the jobs you asked I
was given when I got there was to go through
and sort all the contracts because they were all over

(36:13):
the place. No one was taking looking after them at all.
And one of the first contrasts that passed my desk
was the who for Woodstock twelve and a half thousand
dollars um. That was their feet and no airfare's no
hotels twelve and a half thousand dollars um. But no,
I was not at Woodstock. No, I didn't fly over
till afterwood Stock. Okay. So now in the spring of

(36:37):
seventy the who were just really blowing up. And this
is it's not to the fall, I think, or maybe
this No, it's actually the late spring. It's who live
it leads. So what are your duty? What are your
duties other than selecting Barcelona making the gig? My duties
were And then this is where I just need to

(36:58):
step back. I mean to put it into context. And
my memory of events is slightly different than bills. Um,
what happened the track was Kit and Chris. It did
get out of control, Okay, Um, they were not on

(37:18):
top of it. Kit was still Kit and he was
still coming in with crazy ideas about videos with Michael
Lindsay about album covers like stamped in Fairness came up
with the live at Leeds idea for the album cover.
They still had that. There were filmmakers, That's how they
they got into the music business because they were looking
for a band to make a film about Okay to

(37:43):
To To To as a metaphor for hip for London
as it was in the sixties. So they were there,
but they weren't taking care of business. And I, because
of my initial kind of success with the opera houses,
my responsibilities were to a great extent, love to do
most of the live stuff. However, what happened is I

(38:03):
was at track, there were a few other people there.
The guy might sure that Bill talks about was there,
and then Bill joined, and then so Bill and I
basically we're kind of mucking in and doing all the
day to day stuff at the record company, the management company,
et cetera. There I went over to America in nineteen seventy.

(38:25):
I fell in love with it when I drove over
that tribe of Bridge the first time. I probably didn't
go to bed for ten days. I just felt I
fell in love with New York, the energy, the pace,
just everything about it. I thought this is for me.
So I kind of became the American end of it
and Bill and either which Bill doesn't mention, and I'm

(38:47):
not quite sure why. I feel a little bit stalinized.
We were partners. Bill and I had a pack. We
were doing things together. We kind of brought in Golden Earring.
I did Golden Earring in America. Bill did most of
it in England. The show at the Lyceum that Bill
references they were supporting Mountain. I picked up Mountain because

(39:09):
Frank introduced me to Gary Kirk First. I got to
know and become very friendly with Gary firsts and Bud
Praeger so and Gary was going to do things for
me with Bud in America. And we handle Mountain in
Europe and booked the tours. That's why Golden Ring were on.
And I remember being at that very same Lyceum show
the Bill Bill references, So Bill and I were kind

(39:30):
of partners, and I handled America. I was there during
the Tommy film premier down on the fifty seven Street
subway station and all those things. So everything that Bill
said factually is correct. That's how it was. It was
my I found the office of Steve O. Rooks. I
know this is he me. He shouldn't. I don't want

(39:50):
it to be like that because Steve I had been
a friend of from the very beginning. Um, so Bill
and I were doing that together. Then when Kit and
Chris kind of fine, the went THO who said Bill
and I were offered the management, we were off and
I remember it was like twelve and a half percent
commission or something, I remember distinctly, So we kind of
shared it. Now what happened was that I got headhunted

(40:15):
by the Stones because the American tours of The Who
they were pretty good, that Who live show, and you
saw it, Bob with Tommy I still maintains the best
live show I've ever seen. Well, it's I have three
in my mind, and that's one of the top three. Yeah,
it really was, you know, just those moments listening to

(40:37):
you with the with the lay everything, it just and
The Who were an incredible live band. They could play
out of tune, they could play out of time. But
that raw energy that came off that stage, much of
it driven by Mood because he kept towns and going towns,
and was never exactly I remember watching Moon when people
don't you literally couldn't believe all that sound was coming

(40:59):
from one guy. Credible. It's like it had to be
two people up there. Yeah, it was all over the
place too. I mean, you know, Pete often had to
play the drums on the records because Keith just I
mean he couldn't, you know, and he just had one
way of doing it. But on stage it was stunning.
They were stunning. I mean, I've seen some great bands
like you are, Pearl Jaman this, I mean, you know,

(41:20):
a lot of good bands. There's a lot of great
food fighters. But boy, that Who show with Tommy was something,
you know, with the with the mix of those great
Who's songs and then you know summertime blues and things
like that was just incredible shows and everything. So they
did well. So that Who were playing at the Forum. Uh,
and Jagger came to see the show, and I think

(41:40):
Charlie I don't know, and he kind of sidled up
to me backstage and said, oh, yeah we should talk.
This was post ultimont, remember, so they had a little
bit of uh, you know, damaged control. And I never
thought anything of it, you know, And I went out
to London didn't think anything. I can't even remember an
exact date of it, but but we'll get onto that.

(42:03):
To go to your story, I was really we did everything.
I remember, great story. Remember walking in with the masters
of Tommy under my arm into the m c A
offices at four or four or five Park Avenue. Tony
Martel was was working there and another guy called Jack

(42:23):
Lots I think was m c A in the East Coast,
and I presented Tommy to them, the record playing, and
they said, don't worry, you've come to the right record company. Absolutely,
we have just released. We have just done a great job.
What was the Richard Harris musical? Oh there was one.
It was like some corny middle of the road sound.

(42:45):
It was awful. And I knew there and then that
we had a problem. We had to deal with it
all ourselves. And that's when I bonded with Frank and
Frank and said, Frank, you know, these people are totally
unrelated to the Who. They have nothing in common with
the Who. And you know, these are the days, remember Bob,
when radio was was Paul Drake and the Archaeo Radio

(43:06):
twenty records a week, right, it was I mean, you know,
this business never changes. The words, the names changed, and
this and that change, and the roots direction may change,
but that the aim has always been the same. And
it was really really tough then to for bands like Who.
They had no home and so I did everything and
I went back to him and Bill and I but

(43:27):
to finish the Bill story. Um, obviously we were young.
We had the Stones, we had the Who. I had
picked up Leonard's skinnerd um, you know, because we put
them on the tour with the Who in America in
seventy three. I knew Al Cooper. I got to know

(43:49):
Al Cooper and a few things, and they were on
the same label, so um Skinner where there was a
lot going on, and I was young and Bill and
it was too much for me and Bill, and it
was difficult to man the Who and the Stones because
essentially you were it was like now if you had
Lady Garb, I suppose Nary and Grandy who who which

(44:10):
artists you give it to? It was kind of there
was a conflict, and there was there was natural jealousies,
particularly by Roger and the Who about the stones, and
the Stones always seemed to be that tad ahead in
terms of the media. Um, if Roger had taken a look,
he'd have understood maybe Mick Jandal, Roger Daltrey so Um.

(44:31):
But it was a difficult situation and Bill and I
kind of fell out, and we've hardly ways. So I
stayed with the Stones, He went on with the Who.
I stayed with Skinner, and obviously, because that was my band,
I signed UM and I've been in America ever since.
For all intents and purposes. Bill and I didn't talk

(44:52):
for a while, but then we got together and it
was all very silly. Why we didn't It was stupid
and it probably much my fault as anybody's. Um, maybe
I became a little bit of a diva in those days. Bill,
as you know, very solid, very measured, very steady. Not me.
I'm a totally different animal, and i'd probably, like you know,

(45:13):
it was not a very pleasant person for a while. UM,
and Bill and I drifted apart. Now we're back. We're
good friends, very good friends. Okay, So what year did
the two of you go your separate ways? If Quadrophenia
was seventy three and the Timmy Movie was seventy five. Yeah, no,

(45:39):
it was more like seventy seven, seventy eight. I'm trying
to think of the planet the Skin had plane crash
with seven. Yeah, uh, it must have been seventies seven.
Must have been around that bomb. Okay, custody because I
worked Quadrophene. I remember doing Quadrophenia. Boy work in that record,

(46:01):
and we're doing all the tours. I remember that what
album came after Quadrophenia? Who's Next? Yes? No, No, Who's
Next came before Who by Numbers? Who by Numbers? That
was the album where I shifted out. Okay, let's go
back to the Stones for a second. So you got
involved in the seventy two Stones tour. Yeah, that was

(46:25):
my first tour. Okay, a little bit slower you run
into Uh, we'll just go so on paper it was
you and Bill for the Stones. It was me. I'll
tell you the story. So Jagger sidals up to me
at the Forum, bladih blah blah. Develum there I hear
nothing about it. Fly back to England. Um, another guy

(46:50):
got involved. There was everybody was after the Stones. So
Madison Square Garden Corporation, we're in there. David get In
was in there. Um, and a group of people headed
up by a guy called John Morris, who you may
know through Woodstock was one of the guys with Michael

(47:12):
lang what. He was one of the original partners in Woodstock,
married to an English girl called Anne Weldon who worked
for me and Bill. So John was really really trying
to get the stones, and he was talking the talk,
and apparently there was a meeting with John Robert h.

(47:35):
John Morris and the Stones where my name came up.
I don't know in what context or exactly who brought
it up, but the short along the short of the
story is that John Morris called me and said, Peter, um,
you know the Stones are going with me. Would you
like to be part of it? And I thought, you know, yeah,

(47:58):
sure of course I would. I was in New York.
But then something happened and John Morris suddenly fell out
of the of the equation and I got a call
from Rupert Lowenstein. I'm mean, I mean, I hardly really
didn't know who he was. St Peter, would you come

(48:21):
the Mick and the boys would like to meet with you.
Could you be in Los Angeles and meet When they
were at the Beverly Hills Hotel, meet with us. So
I flew out. I went to Rupert's bungalow. They were
all there. We spent about two hours talking. I was

(48:42):
pretty irreverent. Um, but I'm kind of quickly sussed out
what the key angles were that Keith was really, we
don't want to charge more too much money. Mick wanted
to make sure that the show was spect tacular and profitable. Um.

(49:03):
And so they said they we we seem to have
a good conversation. And they said to me, I said,
I got to fly back to him. I went from
New York to Los Angeles and I had to fly
back to England from Los Angeles. Said, will you, um,
you know, will you make it? Will you make a prophecy?
Will you know, make an offer? Not an offer, but
how you would book the tour, how you would do it?

(49:23):
And um, So I flew back and on that thirteen
hour flight back, I wrote like about fifteen pages handwritten
of how I would do the tour, when I would charge,
where I would play, what I all those things. And
I sent it to them and it was full of
swear words, and it was full of it was really illiterate.

(49:47):
I mean, it was just a ramble and next thing
I know, I get a course saying they'd like to
have another meeting with you about you doing the tour,
and I was in America. The first tour I did
was seventy two. The set that finished on July the
twenty six, seventy two at Madison Square Garden. The next

(50:08):
tour they did was was Your Then we were going
to go to Japan. We couldn't because of Keith's drug No,
it was mixed. It was because of mix um, I
think the Robert Fraser thing with Mary Anne. Because of
his drug conviction. The Japanese wouldn't let us in. That's

(50:28):
when we did the Benefit for Nicaragua in Hawaii. But
the next European tour was seventy three. Bill was my partner,
so I said, Bill, will you handle it? Will you
book it? We're partners, And that's where it came that
it was me and Bill. So in many respects it

(50:49):
was both Bill and I, but Bill was the Who
and I was the Stones and all the kind of
all the key decisions and all the meetings in respect
to the Stones I attended. Bill didn't, and Bill kind
of became much closer to the Who than me and
I became much closer to the Stones, okay, a little

(51:11):
bit slower. Seventy two tour is in wake of Exile
on Main Street. You work with the Stones starting in
seventy two, and when did you stop working with them?
I stopped. The last tour I did with the Stones, Bob,
was the seventy eight American tour. Yeah, before tattoo you okay,

(51:35):
So were you only involved in the tours? Were involved
in creative strategies on the album? What were your responsibilities
everything at all things? Um? I remember very much being
not so much with Exile because that was mid recording.
That was almost kind of like out of the incubator.

(51:57):
When the time I got involved, they were made. That's
why they were in the recording that at Sunset. But
I was very much involved in everything after that. I
mean you were because the Stones were self managed. I mean,
Mick ultimately is the is the manager of the Stones,
and so whoever he's got his his sidekick has to
really do everything and we had to work very closely

(52:19):
with Atlantic in an armored and his team in kind
of coordinating everything. I remember me and Mick going to
meetings like with Jesse Jackson after some Girls you know,
because of the line black Girls like to Fuck All Night.
So I Marshall Chess run Rolling Stones Records. So he

(52:40):
was the guy who kind of sat inside Atlantic and
he did the Meters, you know, because the Meters got
signed to Rolling Stones Records and that, so he was involved.
But I kind of, Bob, it's a bit like with
the who you kind of do what you did in
those days what was necessary to do. And I mean
I've always said the best model for a band is

(53:05):
at that three sixty model, where the manager is, the
agent is, the promoter is, the publisher is the record company,
because you're only focus is the brand and what's good
for the brand is good for you. I do feel
that right one of the problems with our industry right
now it continues to be siloed, where the publishers have
an agenda that's that benefits the publisher, the labels sell product,

(53:27):
the promoter sell tickets, and you know, sometimes the brand
and the band get four in between. The problem with
that model and Ireland had it, and Track had it,
and a lot of people have got it and starting
to come back now. It was subject to a great
deal of abuse. Financially, there was no checks or balances.
Then remember the lawyers hadn't taken over our business. So um.

(53:50):
So into respect to the Stones, I did not get
paid on the record sales. I got paid on touring,
okay by the Stones, but with who I got paid
on records, publishing everything whatever a manager would get. Um.
But I got very fairly compensated by the Stones on
all the touring. But I did a lot of them.

(54:13):
I did a lot of stuff in respect of the Okay,
so let's go back. You fly back for thirteen hours
to u K. You say, how much are you going
to charge? Is it a flat fear into the percentage? No?
That one when I said charge, it was the ticket prices.
So the Rolling Stone was four fifty five fifty top price,

(54:35):
six fifty. That was the prod. That's what it was. Um.
Keith was adamant that it shouldn't be more than six
fifty top ticket. Most of them were reserved seating in
those days, except like the winter Land ball rooms and
things of that nature. So that that that that's the
ticket price that for instance applied to Madison Square. Gone.

(54:56):
Um that I negotiated all the deals. There was no
agent on the Stones tour I did the negotiations directly
with the Bill grahams, you know, the Don Laws, Larry
Maggid's whatever, and um. The deals we drove were tough
and they were kind of I mean this whole conversation again,

(55:17):
I know you had it with Bill. When did nine
ten start? Was kind of around in those days because
Jerry Weintraub was starting to put together national tours. He firstly,
I think with President you know, first thing, I believe
with Sinatra he got then he did press Lee with Parker,

(55:38):
and then he got into the Zeppelin and Grant and
those deals were garret, but they were predicated. They're calibrated
on net receipts rather than gross receipts. Back in the
day before then, for instance, most deals were done in
the artist favor of the gross okay less maybe applicable

(55:59):
taxes with a guarantee. So a typical deal for you know,
a Winterland show would be thirty thousand two dollars against
or plus. However good an agent or manager you are
s the grows. Bill Graham had a different deal to
everybody else. Bill Graham had a fifty fifty deal because
he was Bill Graham and he was brilliant. I mean

(56:19):
grew up one of the greatest showman of our time. Brilliant.
Not a great promoter and ticket seller, but what a producer. Um.
He used to have fifty fifty because he figured out
that every the area that promoters tried to cut costs
on was backstage, and that they did not want to
spend money on food, on drinks, on all those accessories

(56:41):
that the artists may ask for, that that that's just
a waste of money. Bill on the other hand, would
put up palm trees, would put up He'd find out
that bands, certain bands like table tennis tables. He'd have
table tennis, he'd have inflatable pools, even he'd have Hawaiian
cookouts and things like that. What the acts didn't know
was they were paying for it because Bill got a

(57:03):
fifty fifty deal and he kind of seduced the artists.
So the artists would never play San Francisco, would never
play New York, would never play where without Bill Graham
and you were stunned because Bill had a favorable deal.
So the band's made less money, but they had a
better time. But so the Stones tour was based on

(57:23):
a net deal Um with a guarantee, but we kind
of there was no there were no flat deals and
there were no gross deals. There weren't necessary. They're often
stepped those deals and you get x amount of this
and this and this great figure. But it was the
time when it was going from gross because you didn't
trust the promoter. So you've got what you can, which

(57:46):
is still the case in some markets, particularly in the
far eastern India, where you're not going to do an
audit on an Indian promoter. It's but you try getting
a real ticket count out of a Japanese promoter, you're
not going to get it um, so you take the
money and run. Mentality that that was ending in America
there was a more transparent then, and with Barcelona in particular,

(58:09):
because Barcelona's genius was that he didn't just represent acts.
He found promoters to represent and develop. And what he
saw was that his acts were going to be abused
and go nowhere if there wasn't a great promoter there
who was going to help develop them. So I always

(58:32):
used Don Laura as a classic example in the Boston area,
which I'm sure you're very familiar with. So Don, so Don, right,
is there, lovely fresh faced on Law, Buddlewood and melt
in his mouth, right, clean cut, lovely boy. Okay, Frank
goes to Don don we need clubs. You've got a
club Boston, tea party all. And this is why Live

(58:55):
is so it is so different from from everything else
in the business in terms of its relationship with the artist.
Done what we need here? We've only got AM radio,
Paul Drake. These bands are not catered for. There's this
guy in San Francisco called Tom Donahue who's starting something

(59:17):
called FM radio and Case. Then he said, we've got
to get on board list with those are the outlets
that we can promote our bands through. So Dr Frank
I BELOWD Frank was very tight with Tom Donahue and yeah,
this is an agent. But Frank had a vision. He
saw he said, I got it, I need it, he said,

(59:37):
he said. So Frank was very instrumental in fn X,
for instance, in Boston with Oedipus, uh MMS in Cleveland,
MMR in Philadelphia, Case, then obviously in San Francisco, m
ET in Los Angeles, and Frank made sure that his
promoters worked with those stations exclusively got the lay wars.

(01:00:00):
He was also the only agent. I know that was
really worked cleverly with record companies. He'd be very tight
with a Bob riguere at Warners, who was such a
cool label, and Moe Austin very tight with Armored and
Bob Rowlands at Atlantic. So he made sure that those
labels supported those stations. And the other thing was to

(01:00:20):
create the Internet of the seventies was we needed newsprint.
So don you've got to We've got to support this
Boston Phoenix paper. It's underground paper, it's a free newspaper,
but it's the one that kids read with the Village
Voice in the l a week. So what Frank did
was he took these young guys. They had to have
a club, they had to have scale and venues that

(01:00:42):
you could scale out. And he represented those promoters. And
god forbid you screwed or funk with one of those promoters,
or you've screwed or funk Frank because they were out okay,
And he would move promoters around. But they were all
good promoters. They were all hungry promoters. They loved music.
I remember Brian Murphy, who you'll know was I remember
the first meeting Brian Murphy. He was production manager for

(01:01:05):
Northwest release and in Seattle. Frank had a big saying
Brian coming down to l A and starting up and
working in Los Angeles Promotor. So the same with Larry
Valence a little bit so who worked when he worked
with Steve Wolf and Jim Rismiller. So I think Frank
was a genius in that sense that he had that vision,

(01:01:26):
he brought it together. That was our internet. That's the
only way we could connect with the kids. There was nothing, really,
there was no music on TV to talk of. There
was there there was. This wasn't tabloid manner. It wasn't
it wasn't kind of you know, mainstream culture. It was
a fringe. It was like, you know, I remember the

(01:01:47):
first role in Stone's tour. I did I spend as
much time trying to book a hotel as I did
a venue. They didn't want us in. They were scared
of us. We were a threat. We actually were a threat.
And that you know, it was lock up your daughters
and the police would get promoted if they bust Keith Richards.
I mean, and that there there was genuine fear and um,

(01:02:11):
I mean it leads to fascinating stories, but it was
a totally different context that rock and roll thrived in
those days, Uma, and it was wonderful. But Barcelona, I'm
so happy that I've got the opportunity to say this
to whoever's listening to this. Without him, I often wonder

(01:02:32):
would there be live Nation Because Frank was the one
who called all the promoters together when wine trout and
concerts West, We're going to do the ninety tens apline tours.
Because Frank, sorry, he's not stupid, he saw that that
would eliminate the need for an agency as well, and
and pull them together with Bill Graham in particular, and
Bill took the fight and said, look, we cannot do

(01:02:54):
national tours. Um. Of course Bill was one of the
first people to do a national tour. He did the
stuffs right after me, so you know so. But nonetheless
I do wonder, if not how the business would have
changed if Frank and Bill had lived a little longer. Um.
They both passed far too early, both of them, Bill
in particular. Of course, you know, UM fascinating times though,

(01:03:18):
because you look back now and you realize that you
were making up all these rules as you went along,
and this little cottage industry was morphing into something much bigger. Absolutely,
let's go back to seventy two because that was a
transformative tour. First, what was your deal with the Stones?
I was on a percentage of their profit. Ah Uh,

(01:03:44):
it's is pretty good. I mean I come complain and
they made good money. Uh. They were always very fair
with me. They gave me a percentage of their profit. Okay,
So let's talk seventy two. The Stones always had hit Singleste.
They have Let It Bleed. Uh, they do get your

(01:04:04):
yah yahs after that, the live album, they have Altimant.
They have a presence. But you could buy tickets for
the sur when they go to They hadn't been in
America since sixty seventy two. It's literally like the return
of God. Okay. There is press everywhere, never mind Rolling Stone,
but Life magazine. You have Princess Lee Radzewill on the tour.

(01:04:27):
You have Truman Capodi on the tour, who orchestrated all that. Um.
I don't want to sound self serving, but that was
like a lot of stuff that me and Mike did.
Um mixed brilliant at this is a maestro and he's
like be eased to the honey. I mean, people would

(01:04:50):
gravitate around him. What we did by design with that
that talk, we booked it very time. We could have
gone and played bigger venues, Bob, but there's I have
a mantra it's better to turn a hundred people away
than have one empty seat. And so it's all about
supply and demand creates perception, and we booked it particularly

(01:05:19):
strategically major markets. We booked it the right kind of venues.
We also added on elements that other people did hadn't done.
For instance, we took any leave of it's as our
tour photographer. Now, obviously at that time Rolling Stone was

(01:05:39):
by far the largest media platform for music in the world.
Annie would have we we would give. We sat with
Yan before the tour Yam Winner, and we said, look,
you can always have a Rolling Stone journalist on the
tour with us. So we had Check Flippo, Bob Greenfield,

(01:05:59):
all the guys. They were always there. I mean, who
had Dave Marsh. I think Dave Marsh was doing some
string left cream. I think he was around in the
role and stumming. I can't remember, but so we had
that embedded in the talk. We had Lisa Robinson, the
biggest mouth in the business. Then the head of Hopper
of rock and Roll embedded in the tour, traveling with us,
feeding stuff out every day to gossip columns. We thought

(01:06:24):
of all that stuff because that's the game, that's the show,
I mean. And you've got a frontman like the Stones
coming off Alter mot with an album like Exile. I
don't know, Bob, you're asking me, And when you put
it like that, I say, did we And yeah, I
suppose we did. We. Also, the production was pretty amazing.
That that mirror that the chip Right designed, that was

(01:06:47):
like pretty staggering, and it was really cool because no
one had really ever toured with seven super troopers across
the stage like that short like throw. I mean, so
everything we tried to do we tried to differently. One
of the one of the one of the things which
isn't doesn't manifest itself in the public arena, but one

(01:07:07):
of the issues we we we our anticipate we anticipated
early on. The unions were strong in all these arenas,
very very strong, and we kept hearing problems that all
these bands had, especially English bands who didn't understand the
culture of America in getting cooperation and getting fair bills

(01:07:28):
from the Union guys in the venues, so we unionized.
One of the things that I got to know the
guys at Madison Square Garden because we were competitors for
the tour, and one of the guys I bought Mike Crowley,
who was head of security at Madison Square Garden um
but he also was kind of general manager and had
contacts with all the unions. We made out tour unions,

(01:07:50):
so we were the first tour ever to do a
union trucking company bonded Clark Transfer out of Philadelphia. We
had union everything. So we walked in there they were
all old mates because these were the guys. Our crew
was essentially picked from all the ice shows and all
the circus shows, all the Tommy Collins stuff that came
out of Minneapolis. We didn't use rock and roll rhotors.

(01:08:13):
We used hardcore union guys who were on the same team,
and we had no problems, no problems at all. The
entire toy made it run very smoothly. But we we
we would always put on like we bought on a
guy called Christopher Sykes, who was kind of part of
the aristocracy in Britain, was a photographer and we let

(01:08:35):
him photograph and he did a book. We brought Terry
Southern in. Terry did a book. We brought in, Um,
who else did we bring in on the tour? Um?
Well you brought in? Uh wasn't it the Franks who
did Coxsucker Blues? Oh? Robert Frank and Danny Seymour. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
tell us about that. Oh gee, it was a night

(01:08:57):
there for me. But you know, Robert was a lovely man.
Danny was was tough. He was a heroin addict and
he was difficult. That was his kind of a Das
his cameraman, Robert was really cool. I mean he just
kept to his own world. He hung with Keith most
of the time. Um, you know, and he was a
fly on the wall wherever he could be. Um. You know,

(01:09:20):
the film never got released. Um, let's talk about that.
When the film was done, We're on the street and
you're on the inside. Is they saw it and they
said this cannot be released. It was not so much
for the sex as much it was for drugs. There
were and not one of the Stones, but other people
were seen injecting drugs. Um, it was pretty raw, Bob.

(01:09:43):
Um it may not be seen as so raw now, Um,
but I wonder whether I know, you know, they they
still have not shown it to anybody. It's a fantastic
piece of film. I mean, Robert frank it's quite a filmmaker.
M but it was pretty dark at times. Okay, let's

(01:10:04):
go to the tour. Whose idea is it to do
the open pedal stage indoors? It's often these things are
a combination of various people's input. You know, you mess around,
you go to designers. But Robin Wagner, well again we

(01:10:26):
went outside rock and roll. We went to Broadway. Um,
Jules Fisher and Robin Wagner set designers guys who wont
tones and we kind of it came out of those conversations.
But a lot of it was a bit like on
the back of pieces of paper, you know, sketches by

(01:10:48):
Charlie or Mick or Keith giving off to a designer
to see what he could come up with. Driven mostly
by Mick. It was, you know, mostly by Mick. Um.
But who had that original idea? God knows, I don't remember.
You know, these tours take about a year to set up.
Back in those days, Um, the industry didn't quite work

(01:11:10):
as efficiently or smoothly as it as it does now. Um,
it was. It was a lot more of a cottage industry.
So um, the whole thing though, I think I'm trying
to think of Chip was the lighting guy on that
or whether he gone he imploded. I'm trying to think

(01:11:33):
it was. I think the lighting essentially was designed by
Jules Fisher. Okay, so uh, Now Mick Taylor wakes up
one day he wants to leave the band. Eventually there
are people are auditioned and Ronnie Wood gets the slot.
Were you involved in that? No, I was not involved
in would he being appointed? Uh, being offered the gig?

(01:11:55):
If that's what you're asking, right, But let's go back
a step. Did you foresee Mick Taylor leaving the band?
He was he'd become a bit of a loner um,
And there was some personality issues developed, I think in
particular with Keith and him, uh, which wasn't a good

(01:12:16):
thing as they were the two guitarists. Um. I think
he wasn't enjoying it anymore. And he was a musical purist,
I mean he really was. Um. I think he saw
his role musically in the band decreasing. I think you
know that the Stones were looking musically in rather more

(01:12:36):
a different direction from his blues oriented kind of strength.
He's not he's not a rhythmicity. He's not like Wood,
he doesn't play that role. So but it was I
wasn't surprised, boll not. I was not surprised at all.
It wasn't surprised that Bill went. You know, they that
you know, both of them were kind of the core
of that band is McK keith and Charlie l is

(01:13:00):
the one who speaks to everyone. There's always one in
the band who speaks to everyone, but usually the drummer
is the business guy. Yeah, not Charlie the you know
that mixed the one who makes things happen. Keith was
the one who could make things not happen. And that's
a dinner. You know, it's a very imprecise science rock

(01:13:23):
and roll is and that that, you know, the dynamic
of a band is is quite amazing. I mean, I've
worked with Roger Waters for many years, as you know
I did, and you know I was up close and personally.
It's funny, isn't if you take a look at it.
I Mean, Jabber and Richards went through a period where
they wouldn't talk to one another, made albums without ever

(01:13:43):
meeting in the studio. Um, you've got the who Townsend
adulters animosity and then is Well chronicled the Floyd with
Gilmour and waters Well chronicled. I remember going to one
gig at Nassau Colitey him where the caravans were turned
in opposite directions so they would never have to see

(01:14:04):
each other until they actually got on the stage. Um.
And then you you know, and you've got um uh
who page and plan the same thing. It's funny yet
those bands of four of the biggest bands ever and
you've got to find bands all of each other just
die of boredom after one album uh something. You know,
it's a it's a unique blend, so unique cocktail rock

(01:14:27):
and roll bands. So how do you decide to play
stadiums in? Um? The demand was so overwhelming. The business
had got to the stage where we could figure out
where these states there weren't all stadiums. We could figure
out where the good you know, we weren't the first

(01:14:48):
in there there were. These promoters had now started to
get this down. UM. It probably was driven to some
extent by money, but it was a safe play. We
knew that these facts, these stadiums could work. We knew
that we could sell them out. That's what we weren't
sure of in seventy two. Um, you know, and you

(01:15:10):
know we'd we we kind of mixed and matched. We
knew we've got to We've got a tour that we
could extract data from which would tell us even and
it's more in its medieval way back then that we
were in pretty safe situation that we could play the JFK's,
we could play the Arrowheads, we could play the Liberty

(01:15:31):
Bowls or the Cotton Bowls. We knew what we were
doing by then. We got it down and you know,
to play in arenas, we we'd have had to play
three or four nights in each arena, and just economically,
it doesn't make sense. It just didn't make sense. It
was I didn't mean to interrupt you, It didn't make
sense of Princess Prince Rupert Lowers team. You know, he

(01:15:54):
ultimately wrote a book before he died, but he was
seen as a mysterious genius. Can you is that true?
Can you? Reflected all on print Rooper Rupert had a
unique relationship with the group, but Mick in particular he
opened the doors for mix socially in London and Europe.

(01:16:16):
Rupert didn't have a friend who didn't have a title. Um.
And he he was a director of a very very
prestigious bank, Leopold Joseph in the city of London. Um.
He was a very clever man, very disarming, very good
people's schools, very I mean typically I'm a lone still

(01:16:41):
doesn't Sundbridge, but a British aristocrat. Um. He was very
clever in advising Mike on money and the stones tag
set up, which he's you know, was sophisticated, which many
people including like now you two everybody is is in
the same scheme, very legal, um. But um. He he

(01:17:09):
kept himself very much a part for rock and roll,
I mean rock and roll. It could have been anything
for Rupert, you know, it didn't have to be music,
but he he he worked Mick very well and Mick
worked him very well. So you know when Princess Margaret

(01:17:34):
happened to come to an Earl's Court show, it was
Rupert was that she was Rupert's guest. Um. Often like
Nancy Reagan and Jerry Zipkin would come to a show
in l a Rupert's guest. Um. He kind of was
that side of helped create that side of the rolling Stones,

(01:17:59):
which Mick is a master at manipulating master, And it
was very important to Mike, very important that status, that
ability to to to associate and mix with the Hollywood elite,
the social elite. Arm It also served that purpose in
some ways for Mick. Um. It was Rupert and Mick

(01:18:21):
and Rupert and arm It were very friendly and they would,
you know, spend a lot of time together in the
Mediterranean in the summer. So but Mick kind of worked
them all extremely well. And he's Mick. He's one of
a kind. He's quite unique as Mr Jagger. So how
does it end with you in the stars, I think, Bob,

(01:18:43):
it just after the biggest crisis in my life was
the Lenin skin and plane crush. Okay, so it threw
me completely under the bus. Um some ways. I I
haven't recover of it from it. Um. I certainly haven't
got closure on it. Um. And I kind of went

(01:19:07):
off the rails and I think, you know, the stones felt.
I've done three tours of America, three tours of Europe.
Everything runs its course, you know, it's just all this
business is as much about relationships. We all basically can
do the same job. It's you know, we may color
it a little differently. It may be you know, slightly tweaked,

(01:19:29):
but essentially we you know, we were just fulfill of
function and UM it run its course. Bob, Well did
you look keep going? Did you leave good terms? Yeah? Yeah,
we left on good terms. Oh no, no, absolutely. UM.
I always got on very well with with Mi. We
went and watched a lot of cricket together, we vacationed together. UM.

(01:19:54):
I had a lot of respect for him. Um, I'm Keith,
you know, because in those days, Keith at certain lifestyle
habits that you know, I as the manager or tour manager,
you know, I had to try and combat the potential
ramifications of We never really got close, but we've been
closed since because Jane Rose as his manager, and Jane

(01:20:15):
Rose worked for me and I introduced to the key,
so she was one of my employees. Um when I
was had my offices in New York. Um, so we've
all kept pretty tight. Charlie is a lovely man. You know.
I'm not in touch with Charlie, but if I saw him,
there'd be a big hugs. Okay, So let's switch over

(01:20:35):
to Leonard Skinner. How do you actually make the decision
to manage them? As they say al Couprez sounds of
the South, which is district out of it Land and
distributed by m c A. But walk us through how
you seal the deal and then what you do with Skinner. Well,
as I mentioned, we put them on UM as support
for the WHO in that seventy three tour. And they

(01:20:58):
were managers, you just said, by Alan Walden and represented
by paragon Um, which was Alex Hodges and Terry Rhodes,
so very much embedded in the South in Macon, Georgia,
which was you know, the epicenter of Southern Rock. I
just liked them, and they were not I thought they

(01:21:20):
were phenomenal live Um. I thought Ronnie van Zandt, who
could barely read or write, was one of the smartest
guys I've ever ever met. His instincts were incredible. Um.
He was bright as attack. And we got to know
each other and they seemed to be Basically they asked me, Bob,

(01:21:41):
I suppose if it comes down to it, would you
like to managers? Remember at that time, you know, I
was jacked the ladd in a way who stones blahih
blah blah blah. They were a small band trying to
break it. I obviously shown my belief in them by
putting them on the hut or Um. They weren't getting
on very well with with Alan Um. Phil was capit corner.

(01:22:06):
They were on m c A. So there was no
love lost between anyone in macon Um Alex and Terry,
you know, they were okay um and it just it
wasn't anything extraordinary. It was just one day, Ronnie said,
I firing Alan Walden or we are will you manage
just Limy Becaus called me the Limy and and that

(01:22:29):
was it. That was a great relationship. I mean, I
loved Leonard Skinner um and I feel very proud of
what we accomplished together. I mean, a week after the
plane crash, we were going to co headline Madison Square Garden,
which right back in those days for a Southern man

(01:22:49):
to be at that point was pretty incredible. One of
the proudest moments of my life was I book Leonard
skin and we book Leonard Skinner on the Stones ned Worth,
oh in England. And I knew obviously what the stage
was going to be and I knew the stage was
going to be the tom and the tong was gonna

(01:23:10):
you know, snake out into the audience. And so I
got the three guitarists incredible because you had to have
and then long guitar leads that they could march down
that that that that that tom right into the middle
of the audience. It upset Mick a bit because that
was supposed to be saved there. But no one, no

(01:23:30):
one thought that they could get down there because everything
was like you know wide in those days, it wasn't
and there was no wireless um. And they came down
that ramp doing three give me three steps and it
was one of the great rock and roll moment. I
still visitized, and I remember McCarty sitting on the side saying, Wow,
what a man, and you kind of like I was
felt so proud, but that crash was just devastating, just

(01:23:54):
just devastating for me personally, just and for them, I mean, god, yeah,
And I've never had closure. I've never spoken to any
of them since. There were lawsuits that followed, obviously, you know,
which I understand I was sued, but it was all
settled and there was no exchange of money. It was

(01:24:16):
just you know, things against me weigh because it was
all quite you know, it was handled properly, legally. The charter,
I mean, the damn plane run out of gas. They
had a faulty fuel gauge. That's what happened. That's what happened.
And Ronnie van Zand being the cowboy that he was,

(01:24:38):
you know, when the plane was coming down, they were
looking for a clearing. He said, I'm going up with
my pilots. You know, they the stay at the back
of the plane. He lived as he may have been,
you know, physically impaired, God forbid, but everyone in the
back of the plane survived. He goes, walks up and
puts his arm around the two pilots. You know, that's Ronnick,

(01:25:01):
you know, stair awaiting whatever. Uh, pretty sobering. How did
how did you find out? Well, it's very interesting. We'd
opened the tour at the sports a Toorium, probably the
worst venue ever in Miami, Florida. And the next day
we played Asheville, North Carolina, and from Nashville, North Carolina,

(01:25:28):
the band were to fly to Baton Rouge. We're going
to shoot a video that the and they we're going
to play Baton Rouge. I was in Miami. I was
on the plane the charge of playing. We flew into Asheville,
North Carolina. I was at the gig. Next day we
were ready to go to Baton Rouge. I was kind
of on the plane. I get a phone call. One

(01:25:51):
of my non music specific ventures that I got involved
with was a soccer team in the NFL. I was
one of a group of music business people Jerry Moss,
Terry Right, Terry Ellis, Frank Barcelona Di, Anthony, Peter Frampton,
Paul Simon who applied for the Philadelphia franchise the Philadelphia Fury.

(01:26:19):
I was because I was English. I was on kind
of the management committee. And I got a call just
before the flight was supposed to take off for Baton
Rouge that I was urgently required in New York City
because the NSL Commissioner was going to hear our, you know,
hopefully approve our application for the franchise in Philadelphia. I

(01:26:44):
got off the plane. I jumped on an Eastern Airlines
flight into La Guardia Airport. I got off the plane
and I'm walking up the gangway and um, I see
at the end my attorney I know my back uh,
and Skinner's attorney and my number two Mary Beth Medley,

(01:27:05):
who worked for me in the office, and I said,
what are you doing here? Why do you come to
the headport to meet me? And they told me, uh
and uh, that's on you, okay, the way the way
you tell the story since you were on the plane,
and it off any survivors guilt, Yeah, a little, um, yeah,

(01:27:30):
a little bob, A little depends what mood of dime
in the day it is and when it is. But yeah,
I'm very, very very mixed emotions about the whole thing.
Of course, so you say, and understandably it put you
into a tail spin and you'd finished the Stones tour

(01:27:51):
needles to say, this was the end of the Skinner tour?
Where did that leave you personally? Personally, I didn't want
to be in the music business. I wanted out m Um,
you know, I had no appetite UM, and I let
things go drunk too much, took too many drugs, um,

(01:28:14):
just lost track of life. I then I pulled myself
together and a great friend of mine, Joe Cohen, who
was running Madison Square Garden at the time, had just
started up his cable television network Madison's MSG TV, and
a relationship that I had made through through the Stones

(01:28:37):
really was with Warholes Factory, and I was very friendly
with them all, in particular Vincent Fremont, who ran it,
and so I kind of got involved with producing television shows,
one of which was the Andy Warhole TV Show and
Andy hosted and don't many people know this a TV show?
We did six episodes of it. I've got them all

(01:28:59):
off old cassettes in my garage and I did that
and I messed around with that for a while, but
it did, it didn't. The drug wasn't powerful enough. I
missed music. I I I the appetite started to come back,
and you know, but I was out of touch, you know,
you know this business miss a day and everyone forgets

(01:29:21):
your phone number. So um. But then one day out
of the blue, I get a call from Roger Waters,
um partner who had known for years. Um. I first
met her when she was David Entos from his girlfriend

(01:29:42):
at the first isle of White Festival, and Roger asked it,
and I'd know I'd met him before through a roar
kind of We were friends. The Floyd Camp and I
were friends. I knew them all because I said, you know,
I would be very interested if you come and manage me. Now, yeah,

(01:30:03):
I said, right, this could be a lifeline. Back in
um Roger had left the Floyd. His partner Caroline had
turned round to him in bed one day and said, Roger,
you should leave without you there is no Pink Floyd.
Um uh. And then I looked. That taught us all

(01:30:26):
about the power of a brand. But I managed Roger.
It was pretty tough because there was a lot of
litigation going on over who owned what obviously, in particular
who owned the name now. Then the business manager for

(01:30:47):
the Pink Floyd, who are Rock and the band had
hired was Rupert Lonstein. So I had a pretty good
relationship with Rupert, which helped. I had a very long
standing relationship with Stepho and I've always been very good
friends with Dave Gilmour from the days at Cambridge and
we actually share the same birthday. So I mean I

(01:31:08):
was stuck in the middle. I've got Roger over here
and I got you know, the Floyd guys over there,
and I kind of we got stuck. I got, you know,
we got through some sort of negotiation whereby Roger couldn't
do the Wall and its entirety, but he could do
x amount of songs as long as they weren't altogether,
and the Floyd could do this. Bottom line is we

(01:31:30):
both decided to tour. Roger Waters put on an album
called Radio Chaos. You may remember it or may not.
Jim Ladd came out, played the disc jockey, brilliant show,
great you know, great production fantas Nick Pink Floyd went
out the same time. No Roger Waters um so first

(01:31:51):
dates go up Toronto, Roger's playing maple Leaf, Pink Floyder
on sale across the road at the Baseball Staying whatever.
Roger thousand tickets, Pink Floyd thirty tickets. And so it
was around America. And it was the most difficult, most depressing,

(01:32:12):
most awful thing to have to man get through with him.
His ego was crushed. We realized that you can't you know,
the Floyd were the first real brand when none of
the individuals meant more than the combination. And we got
I mean, we got through it. But it was not
a pleasant experience. Um and but he gave me my

(01:32:35):
foothold back into music and then Bills this black put
me together with Duran Duran and I started to manage
them and this is all in the eighties, um, and
that you know, that went okay. But we put out

(01:32:56):
an album. It was a dog called Liberty. Um. We
did the greatest hits, which did well. And then they
wrote this song called Ordinary World. And I took that
song around everyone I knew in the industry and said,
Duran durand new song. Roger Aimeson, forget it, Peter, you

(01:33:20):
know Duran durannor over And that's what I got everywhere Duran.
If it wasn't Dran Duran, it would be fine. And
I just sat with the guys and I said, I
can't do this anymore. Guys, It's just you know, I'm
I'm just getting knocked back. And you know, if you
can't convince the sellers, you'll they will never convince the customers.

(01:33:41):
So um it did. The rest is history. Alan Kovac
picked it up and it was the record or the
song that obviously launched the second half of their career. Fortunately,
I mean very good friends. I have a lot of
respect for Duran Duran and Nick Rhodes. They could have
easily gone under. They are the first major pop and
that really survived in many respects before we got to

(01:34:06):
the Backstreet Boys, and but they were very much a
singles band and not seen as a legitimate rock band.
UM and of course you know they were the first
video band, the first glam band. Boy or boy have
they done well? I mean they were going to headline
Isle of Wight this summer, going to headline Hyde Park
this summer. A lot of respect for how they've done it. UM,

(01:34:29):
So you walk away? I think that's nine two ordinary
world could be ninety? Are you walk just about? You
walk away from Duran? Duran? What's your next move? Next
move is that I'm living in America back and I'm
sending some time in America. And um Phonogram or Mercury

(01:34:53):
UK say, there's this great band we've got called James.
UM we think they can break them America. Would you
help us out? So I became co manager of James
with their existing manager Martin, who was the singer's girlfriend.
And this was just pre laid and um lay did

(01:35:19):
phenomenally well. UM James were always a great life band
and we really I think at one point we shipped
platinum in America. UM of the album UM and this
is before it got picked up in the American buy movies. Um,

(01:35:40):
and if we really did well Martin, the band fell
out with and I became the sole manager of them.
And it's a band that didn't make a lot of
money back in the day, had a lot of problems.
They're very dysfunctional, but their true mus I was seven
of them. Um. How they've survived is a test for

(01:36:04):
me to live. They're a great life man. They've never
been a fashionable band, but they've been very respectful of
their fans, very you know, in every respect. They have
a great connection. They do not allow any gouging of
the fans or abusing and they're selling more tickets right
now than they've ever sold. We have a tour next

(01:36:26):
year in arenas you know, oh to Manchester Arena. Primarily
one market to two or three markets actually. But I've
managed them for thirty years, Bob. They're like my kids,
you know. And every time I've told Tim Booth, the singer,
to go right, he's got left and he's often he's

(01:36:47):
beaten me there, um, you know. And they haven't had
the biggest career of anyone in the world, but they've
had a great career and that their shows are fantastic.
They just I still love going and standing in the
audience and watching them. I must have seen them five times,
and that it just gives me energy. I love them.

(01:37:08):
We're you know, I love their music, I love everything.
And they allow me to manage them. And I think
that's one of the problems I've had in my career
is I don't have a lot of patients. Um I
need to know that my role in an artist or
a client's career is respected and and and the lines

(01:37:32):
are divided, and when the artist starts telling me how
to manage the artist, it's kind of over there. I
don't care about any contract. It's like relationships, you know, uh,
you know when it's over. I mean, I've managed a
lot of that madness. I've managed this one. I managed that,
And I'd rather walk. I'd rather just go because I

(01:37:55):
don't want to be there. If I don't believe that
something's right, I'd rather walk. I think I think managers
get a raw deal actually, in terms of of of
how they're compensated. For instance, there's there's a situation where
you know, by the complete accident, there's everything we've mentioned

(01:38:17):
so far has basically been rock and roll or contemporary.
I'm looking for the next Foo Fighters, the next Leonard Skinner,
the next Stones whatever. And suddenly I get hit on
the back of the head by someone called Il Divo,
and and and and Columbia and Stringer and everybody said,
come on, you can manage, you'll deva, You'll be really

(01:38:38):
good at doing all that. And I said, oh, come on,
this is everything that I got in the business to get.
You know, I detest and I heard the song there,
you know, their operatic version of Umbrake my heart. I said, yeah,
this has got something. I can get on board with this.
And I got on board. I gone on board with it.

(01:39:01):
These are four guys who were casts rather like a movie,
beautiful voices, handsome, you know, everything you need. It was
Chippen Dail's with voices. And then they got to the
point where they were telling me they wanted to write
their own albums, do their solo albums, and this and that,
and I just said, no, you know that's not it's

(01:39:22):
a train wreck. I promise you you don't do it.
It's a trainer. You've got something that really works, you've
got a brand, you've got to you've got a fan
base that are so loyal to you. You've got, whether
you like him or not, Simon Cowell adds a great
deal of value to you, and it's he hasn't He
has a lot of leverage within the Sony hierarchy, and

(01:39:43):
he's your champion. He may disagree with him about certain
repertoire choices or certain mixes. Get over it, guys. You've
you've made millions, millions, You've sold thirty five million albums, um.
But they couldn't, you know, the ego took over this.
So we've been you know, and you walk away from it.

(01:40:03):
And then with with Ball and Bow, I took on.
After that, I became known as the kind of guy
who knows how to do these classical crossover things. So
I started to manage a guy called Alfie Bow who
uh you know, came through, Uh, came to everyone's attention.
He was in Lemits, fantastic voice, lovely guy working last night.

(01:40:26):
So I am, but his career was in the weeds.
He released an album which was unsuccessful. He released another
album under my stewardship, which was so so, but not
what it was needed in that kind of field. So
I came up with the idea with Phil boundary of
creating UH an entity called Ball and Bow. Michael Ball

(01:40:51):
is a well known West End performer, host TV shows,
very got his own radio show on Radio two. Alph is,
I thought, right, one on one makes three, let's go.
I've always believed that if you get it at one
on one makes three. Um, so we put it together.
Um number one record, biggest selling album of two thousand

(01:41:15):
and eighteen in Britain, selling out O two, selling out
all over the place. Alph. He wants to do a
solo album and he doesn't like kind of this crossover.
He wants to do a blues arm or He's not
quite sure, but he wants to do an album that
has nothing to do with the genre of music that
he's known for. And he said, so, I said, I'll

(01:41:37):
walk away from it. Then, you know, we we sit
down and we start to negotiate with the lawyer and
what we call the post term Commission. And I said,
I think I should You got it, Bob, You've got it.
I said, I think I should have a consideration on
board and both I created or was instrumental with Phil

(01:41:58):
Baodry Michael's marriage in creating that intellectual property, and I
should be compensated if I if I was the producer
of the record, I'd get an override for my three
or four points. I said, why don't managers? And it's
the thing that's bummed me a lot that I feel that.
You know, management is a monst name. I love it

(01:42:18):
because it's the only thing I've really ever done. The
lows are devastating, but the highs are phenomenal. But I
do think that we should have you know, normally that
the lawyers just cut you off after three months, three years, whatever.
But I think we should have a continuing interest in
things of that nature when we launched them. Um, because

(01:42:41):
intellectual properties, god knows. I mean, look at those struggling
photographers we used to let backstage back in the seventies
and eighties. They've now got their photographs exhibited in the
tape Museum. You know what, what what do we give them?
We gave him a PhotoPass, we got nothing. Um, So
intellectual property is many respects the name of the game,
and managers get short. I believe in that respect, I

(01:43:02):
do believe managers the management contract should be re calibrated
to acknowledge those types of things. Okay, but let's uh
forgetting this COVID era where everything's up in the air. Uh.
Live Nation first calls SFX THNK, Well clear channel is
rolled up. Starting in the frank Barcelona model starts to

(01:43:24):
die and then goes completely under. We have mass management
companies over at Live Nation in red light. What and
the businesses mature as opposed to the era you're talking
about where we were making it up and figuring it out.
What's your viewpoint on today's business? Oh boy, that's a

(01:43:44):
big question. Um. I don't enjoy it obviously like I did,
But then I'm seventy four, so i'm I am you
know everything that I got in the business during place.
Um uh an old white man. I think it works

(01:44:07):
obviously far more efficiently. I think it is far less
spiritual is the wrong word, but it's far more clinical. Um.
I believe that the star making machine is so contrived

(01:44:33):
right now it's um, it's it's unhealthy. Um. I mean
Colonel Tom pork Parker made Presley as a star. But
what we're doing now with where the visual is sometimes
more important than the audio, does bother me. I always

(01:44:57):
think that Live is healthier, but I think it's now
oversubscribed as it's become the primary income stream. UM Live
Nation is nothing but a roll up of those Larry
Maggot's Don Laws, Brian Murphers. It's the same guys with
a corporate cloak and a very astute, astute guy in charge.

(01:45:20):
Michael Rappino was some very able assistance. Cathy Willard, Joe
um and co. Arthur Friedman is still there doing his stuff.
You know, as I've said before in things, and I
think you've commented on it. You know, I've known these
promoters same Delsoner all my life in New York. He
did the first show I ever did in New York

(01:45:41):
after the met at Forest Hills. In that time, I've
met thirty or come across the dirty presidents of Columbia
Records or Atlantic Records or things like that. UM, I
don't like I'm involved with the project now. As one
project of last year, I decided basically I'm gonna like

(01:46:02):
kind of kind of step out a little bit. I
was I'm tired, okay, And I got rid of Alfie
Bow and I stayed with James because I'll always stay
with James. Another kid who you know, Stephen Wilson because
I like him because he's got his own lane, he
does his own thing. He you know, he's got this

(01:46:22):
great relation to it. I just loved the kid and
what he what he does. And I signed an unknown girl, uh,
completely unknown. She was a cover's girl. She was signed,
but she was signed to Atlantic when she was thirteen.
She's now nineteen and they're going to release her first
real record in two weeks time. And it's it was
al really, I thought, stirring example of artist development as

(01:46:46):
opposed to product placement. UM. And I'm enjoying it. It's
kind of it's like going to the first dance again.
I'm loving it, UM, but I find it so soulless, Bob.
I mean, it's really soulless UM. And you know they're
looking at nothing kind of impresses them. They sit there

(01:47:09):
like looking at numbers and looking at Gator social media influences,
and I get all that, and influencers are important. We
had our own thing of did the similar thing. I
get it, I get brands, and I get planned social media.
We're all still trying to do the same thing that
we did years ago. It's not it's the same game,

(01:47:29):
but it's too big. This The mediocrity at middle management
is appalling, and I mean, I don't have to tell
you know, I'm preaching to the church here. And top
management is just so removed from the day to day
culture of the music business now that I just I
think they've squeezed the entrepreneurs out of the business because

(01:47:53):
they're so risk adverse. Because corporations should not be in
the music business. They just shouldn't. I mean, what are
Vivendi doing running a record company, I you know, other
than to make money to sell it no other reason. Um.
I think Lucien, given the cards he's been dealt, whether

(01:48:14):
it's done, a fantastic job. But I think the whole
model is broken. Just like I feel the political system
is broken, I think the music businesses system structure is broken.
There was one meeting that I've broken about ten years ago,
maybe maybe less. I managed to get Michael Rappino and

(01:48:36):
Lucien Grange in the same room and I said, you
guys are in the same business. You should join forces
for the betterment of your artists and the business. And
my suggestion was I said both. I said, I said, Michael,
you just take bands for one night stance. We all
know that it's a cash business. You win big, you

(01:48:57):
lose big, but it's you know, you've got no really
will stake in the game. You Lucy and signed a
band for seven albums, eight albums when they start. If
they're successful, they spend the rest of their career negotiating
that contract. If they're unsuccessful. Nowadays you're drop them after
one album, or you're you're dropping after the first midweek. Okay,

(01:49:17):
I said, but why don't you get your heads together?
And I think that you Live Nation should get three
points on any artist or developed artists that you and
Universal agree on, and three points on their next record,
and you should guarantee the label that you will give
them thirty forty dates in the US. And so there's

(01:49:39):
some more scientific, more strategic play, and you both get
reports and you've Universal will get money from the gigs
in kind in a similar in kind to the to
the points that Live Nation will get on the record
of the part. I just feel that, you know, we've
just got to close ranks on all this. Why we've

(01:50:00):
got all these silos around which are running this bit
the business at the moment, I don't get it, Bob.
It doesn't to me. It's not working long term and
artists development as you well know. I mean, it's like
the checks in the mail, isn't it. It's just not
it's not there. Um, So I can't say that I

(01:50:22):
think it's wonderful, but it never was wonderful, you know.
And when you've got something successful and you kind of
think it's great, and when something is unsuccessful you blame everybody.
But I've always felt that if you've got a hit,
you stand out of the way, you just open the door.
And as a manager, all I can do is it

(01:50:43):
the six doors, and my artists has to go through one.
I point to the door that I think will serve
my arts is best in going through, and on the
other side there's something meaningful for him. Um. I think
the lawyers are far too involved with this. I think
they've become there and our dives often their first advice
to an artists, don't take an up manager because you
won't have to pay a commission on the on the

(01:51:04):
album or the publishing deal. Well that's kind of like
self defeat and it's stupid because a then no manager
wants to work, should work for two years for no
money at all. And I know that the lawyers will say, well,
I can charge you fifteen thousand pounds fifteen dollars to
do this contract, but whereas you have to pay a manager,

(01:51:26):
and I'll cost you more. No lawyer actually ever has
to live with the contracts they negotiate. Most of those
contracts are about, as you know, forty pages long, all
all obviously crafted for the event, for for when things
go wrong. It's just not right that they have such

(01:51:49):
a say so early in an artist's career. Now that's
not all the case because management now, but more and
more the lawyers of players in there live the thickest
contract live. Even if you do a over tour with
Live Nation that ten pages, often two pages, and it's
a lot more money at stake, a lot more. Okay, Um,

(01:52:10):
it's a different it's a different culture, it's a different DNA.
So I just think that you know, we've got three
record companies now, Bob, and that's not healthy. I just
don't think that's healthy. A and M's brought folded revived.
When they need to offer some new guy or poach
some guy from another label, Oh, let's give him A
and M oh, let's get in you know, let's let's all,

(01:52:31):
let's bring him my records back. Oh, let's bring it.
I mean, it's just such a game though in that sense,
um I am. I don't know when that's answered your question,
but oh, I think it's more than to answer a question.
The problem is people who were not alive in that
era are not conscious. They don't realize. As you stated earlier,

(01:52:52):
I mean that the business was being built. I used
the equivalent thing from tech. You know, there's always things changing.
It's not that way now. I think music will always exist.
There are some changes coming down the pike. We could
we could have a long discussion about this, but this
is your time. We'll do that at another time. Peter,

(01:53:12):
this has been wonderful. Thanks so much for showing up.
I hope so, I hope you're enjoying it. Oh, it's
really really great. Really, you're fantastic. Until next time. This
is Bob left sense

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Bob Lefsetz

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