The Book of Joe: 2024 NLCS and ALCS

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the ALCS and the NLCS.  Performing in October is a different type of pressure and game.  We touch on the teams that went home early and what they'll need before next season.  Tom feels the Yankees can almost be 'boring' to watch because they're so patient.  Joe explains how a manager stays in the moment while keeping the big picture of the series in mind.  Back to the Phillies and Padres, were there too many expectations?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey there, and welcome back to the Book of Joe
Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden,
and we are lucky enough to get Joe off the
golf course so we can talk National League at American
League Championship Series. How's the game these days, Joe?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know what it's been, It's been actually pretty good.
When my one of my matches the other day at
their local Ryder Cup, I'm gonna brag you a little
bit here because we have like a nine hole event.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
It was a three nines on.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
The first day and we closed our guys out on
the one nine hole. I had four birdies and nine
holes in seven holes. Never done that before in my life.
And then yesterday it was down in Philadelphia at the
Darren Dalton Foundational Event.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'll tell you what.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
It could not have been windy. Your could not. I
don't think I've ever played a win like that. But
me and three other four of the young men Andrew,
two Joe's and a Matt We had a right time
and so I got back kind of late.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's all good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ryder Cup was fun and whenever you have a chance
to do these charity golf events, they raise a ton
of dough. Darren Dalton, the great guy, died terribly young.
And so anyway, it went down here yesterday. I got
to see Boa, Johnny Cruck, Ruben Tomorrow, a lot of guys,
a lot of Phillies that I love. So it was
a good day.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, we'll get to this a little bit later. Those Phillies,
fans and players still looking their wounds after a team
we both like coming into this postseason. Joe is out.
We'll talk about that in a minute, but first I
want to get your overall impressions here as we sit
here at the National League Championship Series, the Yankees playing
the Guardians, the Mets playing the Los Angeles Dodgers. What

(01:45):
has jumped out at you so far? If you see
a pattern overall in this postseason, something that surprised you,
and I talked to you Joe Madden about the twenty
twenty four playoffs, what really has caught your eye?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, you know the biggest Well, I guess it's become
in vogue. I mean the usage of the bullpen. Obviously
bullpens with Detroit, you know, they they did their thing
in Houston. But it's so difficult to go through that
many games with this kind of a pressure and attitude. Uh,
and have your really pictures really come through time and

(02:17):
time and time again. It's not easy, and it's it's
it might be a temporary fix, but it's difficult to
go further than that.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
I'll say it run run down.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know, everybody keeps waiting for him the fall, and
you know he's he's he stubs his tone now and then.
But that was pretty spectacular yesterday. With the guy did
during the course of the season was kind of it's
kind of a typical good adding maybe two good addings,
bad adding whatever, and always concerned about him blowing up,
but he didn't do that yesterday, So that that really
stood out to me. I give him, give him credit

(02:47):
because he hears a lot of negativity and I really
liked what he did yesterday, and congratulations to him and
the Yankees. But like you're saying, the dumping of the Phillies,
we're gonna touch on that a bit.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
The look, I mean, I'm into the look.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
You know, you can see, guys, when a team kind
of takes charge, it's going to becomes difficult for the
other side to continue to believe in we can do this,
even though you might be the favorite.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
So you know, I'm going to some abstract stuff right here.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
But that's pretty much what I look into when I
watch games. It's not so much the excess and o's
I look at kind of like the attitudes and the
methods and how people go about their business. And is
it as as you predictors. We think like we thought,
but we're wrong. You have to be ready for surprises
and all of that kind of stuff. So it just

(03:36):
it's just men baseball players. Some are rising to the occasion,
some not so much. I mean, Aaron Judge has really
been struggling, and I watched his swings last night. Everybody's
talking about what he needs to do. He needs to
accept his walks. That's my opinion. Aaron Judge needs to
accept his walks, reorganize a strike. So once he does that,
heads up, you're going to start flying all over the place.
And then Stanton, you know, here's a guy that everybody

(03:57):
wants to. It's almost like a Rendon Rendon Bury the guy,
but here he comes again. So attitudes rising to the occasion,
those that may follow a negative pattern, whatever, that's what
I look into more than anything, and that's what's fascinating
to me.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
But there's a lot to unpack there, Joe, Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah,
I mean that was a little James Joyce stream of consciousness.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know, let's start with the Yankees, okay, and the
Yankees Guardian series. You mentioned the star power on the Yankees, right,
and you're watching you know, Soto go Yard, You're watching
a Stanton just completely come alive at which he does
in October. Judge is still a force, and I agree
with you, he's fine. I think there's a natural tendency
to press. I know, Joe, you like to talk about

(04:43):
the five levels of being a professional. There's almost another
six to one, and that is getting it done as
a star player in October. Because until you change that
narrative that is there and you will be asked about it.
And I don't care who you are, it weighs on players.
It doesn't mean he can't play well in October. It
doesn't mean that he won't play well in October. It

(05:03):
just means he hasn't yet. So he has to remove
that and then you'll see him take off. I have
no doubts about that, but I see them matched up
against Cleveland, Joe, I don't see anyway the Cleveland Guardians
are going to score enough runs to win four games.
I really don't. I mean, I gotta be honest with you.
Watching the Yankees, they're not actually a great watch. They're

(05:25):
averaging seven walks per game in the postseason. I mean,
Kansas City, great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees,
Cleveland great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees, and
that team will not chase. If you go into a
series thinking we're gonna get the Yankees to chase, that's
how we're gonna win the series, forget it. It's not happening.

(05:46):
It's the most patient team at baseball. Sometimes I actually
think they're too patient because they give away a ton
of strikes. So I just see these teams that have
good pitching, but when you go especially at Yankee Stadium, man,
you have to have guys who attack the zone. And
I'm sorry, some of these young pitchers with good arms
and good men on their stuff are just not throwing
the ball in the Drike zone enough. And I think

(06:08):
you have to do that because if you pitch around
the Yankees, guess what, You're still going to get beat.
It's just going to take a few minutes longer to happen.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's a bingo right there. I cannot agree with you.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
More years ago, starting out with the Rays in two
thousand and six, I kept hearing, well, the Rays need
to get out of the Ale, so you need to
get out of this division.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
It's too tough, financials did not match up.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
You're never going to be successful if you don't get
out of this division, and so on and so forth.
In my response always was, no, we need to play
in this division. This is how we're going to get
better quickly. This is how we're going to be able
to cope with the better teams in baseball by primarily
playing in these venues. You know, playing at the Trump
is one thing, but playing at the old Yankee Stadium
and at Fenway Park. At that time, they were the

(06:54):
two Giants, and even Toronto was pretty good too. But
to play Yankee and Fenway often, which we did.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
I thought that would accelerate our growth.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
My point is, I mean, and I know they're a
little bit more balanced schedule now, but nevertheless, Kansas City
hasn't played and these young guys have not played at
the Stadium often enough, or Fenway often enough. At a
certain extent, Cleveland, I mean Cleveland, all the Central Ales
Central has always had a difficult time against the Yankees,
and I really believe it's a familiarity kind of a thing.
And that's why I loved what the Rays the ascension

(07:23):
of the race. I think a lot of it had
to do with playing in that division. You had to
be on your toes every night. And you just said it.
One of the things we talked about, Andrew and I
back in the day was that in order to get
Yankee hitters out of Red Sox hitters out, you have
to be able to get him out in the strike zone.
That was a big part of their foundation back then
and it still is. To make you throw the ball

(07:44):
with the play.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Kevin yuclis outstanding with the Red Sox, all those guys,
RTT Manny had an idea what he's doing at the plate.
And look at the Yankees.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
You know, you talk about this Yankee team, and then
I was thinking about just put the overlay those teams,
like you know.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
With Sharah and Jeter Cano, Rodriguez, he could go up
and you know Bernie beeven.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Before that go over that lay them over top of
one another, and see how really great those teams were
and how tough that division was. So I think, you know,
if I'm I want to play in the Al East,
I want to play under these circumstances. I think it
definitely benefits and helps this time of the year. And
a lot of it has to do attitudinally mentally. What

(08:23):
am I seeing right now? And and how how easy
is it to breathe? Am I used to this?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
You know?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
There's this kind of like this force field that kind
of envelops you when you walk in there. You didn't
ask for it. It's something that you can't describe necessarily
unless you participate in it. But it's there and when
you That's what I'm saying. All the information in the world,
all the great facts in the world, cannot do anything
for you unless you go in there properly and able

(08:52):
to repel the negativity in a sense, or repel this
this energy and actually use it to your benefit. And
that's how you win in New York. That's say win
in Boston.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, I listen. I like the way Cleveland plays baseball.
I think Steven Vote has done an amazing job with
that team. I really like the Cleveland Guardians team. I
don't want this to sound like I'm banging on them.
To me, it's just a bad matchup against the Yankees,
because I believe the Yankees' pitching staff is just as
good as Cleveland's. When you're talking about whatever it is,
a thirteen or fourteen guys on the postseason roster. Now

(09:23):
in any kind of key situation, you're going to your
high leverage guys. And I think the Yankees matchup whether
it's starters, well, especially starters and bullpen. They can go
pitch to pitch with Cleveland, but at bat to it bat,
especially slug to slug, it's a mismatch. I mean, the
Yankees can just turn the game on a dime a
lot deeper in the lineup than Cleveland can. And then
when you give them seven walks per game, they're going

(09:46):
to cash some of those into runs. So you know, listen,
Cleveland can find a way to score four or five
runs four different times against the Yankees, more power to them.
I just don't see it happening.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, And you're talking about Yankee pitches versus Cleveland hitters,
and that's part of why the Yankees pitching looks so
good too.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Who who are they pitching against? Kansas City?

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Same thing I mean, And with Bobby Wood, Junior had
really had a tough time. That even exaggerates the problem
even more where the Yankee pitchers are even more elevated
when they pay face teams that aren't And you could
make the argument that oh they're they're the Indians aren't
hitting because the Yankees pitching is so good, or Kansas
City then because the Yankee pitching is so good. But
I'm watching like Bobby with Junior expanded strikes and that's

(10:29):
why he struggled while he did, And that's why judges
and everybody's always.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Looking for answers. We always are.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
And he has to do this, you know, missing his
fastball whatever. But except your walks, because if these you're
not going to pitch the Bobby with Junior, they don't
want to pitch the judge necessarily. But now that they
see that he's off a little bit, maybe a little
bit more assertive with him. However, for me, when you're walking,
you're hitting these guys that are really good that may
be struggling, especially this time of the year. For me,

(10:58):
I would really pay attention to with their swinging at
more than anything, because you've got to force those pitchers
back in. You accept your walks, you set the table
for the next guy, and eventued, before you know what,
you're going to find your cookie and it's going to
go far. So it is a day Yankee pitching has
been so good or the offenses they've been facing has
made them look better than they are.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, let's also say goodbye to some teams we had
here in the postseason. You mentioned Kansas City, I mean,
unbelievable year, right Mac Ltrarro takes them from one hundred
and six losses into the postseason. Listen, I think these
Central teams definitely benefit from playing the Chicago White Sox
thirteen times, There's no question about that. Edges over teams
like Seattle and Boston and wildcard contenders who didn't have
the advantage, but they did take advantage of it. I'd

(11:39):
take nothing away from them for that. But you're right.
You see Bobby Wait, classic case of a great player,
and I mean he's a great player, so much fun
to watch, a definition of a franchise player. For me,
just trying to do too much in the postseason moment.
And it goes by quickly. You know, it's like there
wasn't time for him to readjust and settle things down.

(11:59):
Before you know it, you're out in your home. But
a great learning experience. He in the Kansas City were
I just think, Joe, that team needs to find a
lot more bets. I mean, they just there's no depth
of that lineup. It's too easy to pitch too. I
like their pitching. Cole Reagan's is a star already and
will continue to be. I think he's just a pleasure
to watch with that change up, and you know, Lugo

(12:22):
and Waka were great signs. I think it's a good
sign to other teams that you know are coming off
down seasons that you're not that far away. Just spend
some dough on some guys who can give you some innings.
So that's my take on the Royals. I think they
have to invest to me in offense, Joe, where they
get it on the free agent market trades. I don't know.
They have some good young players, but they need a

(12:43):
little more thump in that lineup.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Let me ask you this, do they just have like
a paradigm shift regarding how we're going to do this,
it's hard to just find sluggers or on a market, right,
It's just it's hard to go out because they.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Can't purchase them. They're that purchasing power.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
You know, they're not going to get Soto as an
example more than like, so, what's wrong with creating your
own set of metrics, your own new vision, whereas maybe
maybe speed pitching and defense is where they need to
go and get away from that. I mean, you know
you're trying to be that and you're not. And is
it in your organization? Is it in your minor league system?

(13:24):
Are these people actually forthcoming? Are you going to find
them soon? Probably not? I mean that's to me where
I used to talk to theopsy in about this, about
the draft when there was more rounds, and I said,
there's forty rounds in the draft. They think at that
particular point, why not spend the last like thirty to
forty on just absolute athletes and speed guys. I think
we've talked about this reminiscent of the old Kansas City

(13:45):
Royals baseball academy. If you hit on one guy a year,
after three or four years, man, you've got three or
four guys in your funnel. There they can really impact
your major league team. Kansas City's got a big ballpark,
it's big, big gaps, et cetera. So what's wrong with
like coming out with a different kind of a method.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
To winning baseball games.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Everybody's going to talk about slug and home runs win games,
and I get that.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
However, if you'd really compound.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Speed, especially with the way the rules are slanted right
now to speed with base stealing and contact, I'm just curious.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
I mean, so to really try to build.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Your team like everybody else and just try to be
like everybody else. You know, like you said, you might
get to the playoffs like this, but is the goal
just to get to the playoffs or is the goal
to get to the last game.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Of the season and win it the last game of
the World Series.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
So maybe a paradigm shift, maybe a different method of
putting our group together, something that's more attainable to us speed, defense,
and pitching.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
I don't know, I would have to have that conversation.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, listen, I love balance if that's what you're talking about,
But I'm not going all in with nineteen eighties baseball
because you need to hit the ball at the ballpark
in today's games, simple as that. It's too hard to
hit in today's game to be a rally team. And
you look at the teams who get into the postseason,
they're all in the top half of Major leage Baseball
and home runs all of them. I don't think there's
a path in today's game to be you know what,

(15:09):
do you Herzog's Cardinals and do it that way? Do
I want more balance? Absolutely? That's one reason why I
liked the Padres team a lot, because they did put
the ball in play. Well, let's talk about the Tigers,
another team bounced out of the American League. What was
your takeaway from Detroit? You mentioned their bullpen, Joe. To me,
it's not sustainable. You know, it did catch up to
them a little bit. But I give them a ton

(15:31):
of credit because they did something that's really hard to do, Joe,
And I'm not sure if you ever did this in
Tampa Bay, but they made a transition during the season
to a younger team, and they basically had a transitional
year in a span of two months where they had
a ton of positional players from ages let's say twenty
three to twenty seven, all pop at the same time

(15:53):
and they all got a little bit of a taste
of the postseason apple that bodes really well for that
team that has a tremendous number of really high level arms.
So I'm bullesh on the Tigers. They just need to
continue to develop these young players, you know, bring them
along at a rate. As you know, Joe, that development
is not linear. Some guys will go backwards, some guys

(16:13):
will go forward. But man, what a successful year. Even
if they hadn't got into the postseason, it was successful.
But that was just a bonus for me to see
these young players come along and develop at the big
league level and then get into the postseason.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Well, the fifteen Cubs became the sixteen Cubs. I mean,
the fifteen Cubs were not expected to go that far.
We had some kind of organizational major league players at
that time. We had a lot of young guys that
were finding their footing, and eventually in sixteen it became
pretty good. So I've been with I think that's a
really good example. My time with the Rays, we had

(16:49):
young group that became better, but we also augmented that
group with some really chosen veterans for the two thousand
and eight run and then after that. So there was
a homegrown a lot of homegrown, a lot of homegrown arms,
which was really a big part of the success there.
The bullpen was kind of veteran, which I've always liked
to like the veteran bullpen. Those guys really know how
to take care of themselves. They've been beyond. They get

(17:11):
beyond all the sore arms and being able to pitch
two three days in a row and understand how to
do that. So I think I've been a part of
those kind of groups where the young group, all of
a sudden gaels comes together and they did. You're exactly right,
they did, but it isn't linear, and you have to
see it the developmental process. You got to see it
again next year because when you start gaining momentum like this,

(17:33):
you definitely need to grow from there. You definitely don't
want to take a step backward. And the fact that
they did do it and their pitching is that strong,
that to me really stands out. I love their shortstop
acquisition too. You know, training flowerty Away, nobody's talked about that.
I haven't really heard about it a whole lot, but
trading flowerty Away probably heard them in this postseason a

(17:54):
little bit, but the short stuff they got. I was
really really enjoyed watching him playing. I think he's going
to be very good. So and what has that been
about hobby bias moving forward?

Speaker 3 (18:03):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, they're reminiscent of the fifteen Cubbies on the verge.
Maybe I don't know if they could go out for
a well chosen veteran or two that they need for
next year to really galvanize this whole group. But yeah,
they're kind of on that path.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
They needed Johnny Lester.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
That's right, That's exactly what I was thinking as I
was saying that.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
And just remember, folks, you heard it here first, the
twenty twenty five Tigers analogous to the twenty sixteen Chicago Cubs. Hey,
we're going to take a quick break. When we get
back on the Book of Joe, I want to dive
into a fascinating series already after two games, and that
is the National League Championship series the New York Mets
and the Los Angeles Dodgers. It looks like a long series,

(18:43):
will it be? We'll talk about that after this. Welcome
Back to the Book of Joe podcast breaking down the
National League Championship Series. It's been a good one, so, Joe.

(19:04):
The Dodgers looked like an absolute juggernaut. In Game one.
They handed the Mets their worst loss in their one
hundred game postseason history, nine to nothing, non competitive game.
And there are the Dodgers on a roll of what
was it, thirty three consecutive twenty three consecutive scoreless innings,
whatever it was. I didn't give it up a run

(19:26):
since the third inning of Game three in the NLDS.
Just clicking on all cylinders and then boom. Game two
opens up with Francisco Lindor hitting a home run after
a long a bat man? Was that you die? You
talk about a guy who sets the tone for the
New York Mets, And then I want to get your
take on this show. Second inning, there's a base open,

(19:49):
two outs. Lindor is back up again and Dave Roberts
puts up the four fingers to put him on base.
The pitch to Mark Viento's right hand or on the mound,
and bam, grand slam. Basically game over at that point.
This is interesting, Joe. I was sitting there wondering it
wasn't I don't think a terrible move. But I was thinking,

(20:10):
how many times does a manager walk the leadoff guy
in the second inning of a postseason game? Because you're
walking the guy to get into deeper into the middle
of the order and it's only the second inning. The
answer is, it's only happened once before in postseason history.
And you know who the hitter was, Francisco Lindor. Joe

(20:32):
Girardi did that with CC Sabbathia on the mound, really
to pitch the Jason Kipness and Kidness beat Sabbathia with
a single Wow. So what did you think, first of all,
the move there to walk Lindor to get the Viento's
to go right on right two outs in the inning.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, I mean I can't. I can't fault him for that.
I was probably discussed before the game, and I in
a twenty sixteen World Series, I made decisions based on
Lindoor coming to the plate.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
I've done that.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
He is that good. He's been that good for a
long time. That was sixteen. This is twenty four. So
when that guy is on his game and he is
so locked in right now, and just to typify that
or explain that to me, is that when he hit
that home run, that big home run recently in New York,
I think it.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Was, Yeah, the Grand Slam of Vestavez.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, he just seemed like running around the bases like
an absolute professional. I mean, that just tells me how
locked in he is, and that's how much he's setting
the tone for this entire group. Yeah, listen, I love Viento's,
but I yeah, I probably have done the same thing.
I'm not saying I wouldn't, And again I would have.
That would have been on my card right there. I
put like a little hook around the door to get

(21:43):
to Viento's.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
And it just makes sense. I don't care what any
it is.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Playoff games really obviously project differently, So yeah, I could
see doing that. I love Viento's and is going to
be great. I think he I as his third bass
play continues to improve. Heads up, this is that's a
hard position to fill and to feel with that kind
of abilities, and he seems like he's he's kind of
okay with all this. He's kind of calm about.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
The whole thing.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Oh, he's more than okay with it. They call him
Swaggy V. This kid, he's got an ability to have
tremendous confidence without being arrogant about it. I mean, he
is smooth. I don't think he's a third baseman. Ok
we'll see if he develops into one. I think he's
gonna be playing first base next year if Pete Alonzo's
signs elsewhere. Okay, but that's moving ahead. Let's look back

(22:31):
on that game again, Joe, because what the Dodgers did,
and they're always interesting to me with their pitcher usage. Right,
they first thought Walker Buehler was going to pitch game two,
but I think they made the right move to go
to a bullpen game in game two rather than three,
because you don't want to go bullpen game game three
when you're playing three consecutive days. Correct, So that made

(22:52):
sense to me. So they go into this game, they
start Ryan b Or Brazier, who's just a he's an opener,
and Lindor pops in for the home run. Then they
go to this kid, landed Neck. They like him. He's
got one of these fastballs at the metrics like, he's
got high spin, he's got good vert top of his own.
He also has thrown almost forty percent more innings this

(23:12):
year than he did last year. He's a twenty seven
year old rookie. He's been around, but like a lot
of guys in today's game, because of COVID and because
the way guys that can handle the minor leagues, he's
only averaged like ninety one innings a year as a professional,
so he's been way over his innings limit. And he
goes out there as essentially the bulk guy that Dave
Roberts has, and he was gassed. Quite frankly, he was

(23:34):
put in the spot he wasn't ready for, and they
just had to kind of ride him, and you know,
before you know it, the game's out of hand. Now
the Dodger offense does come back, so it becomes a
six to three game, and Dave Roberts is piecing the
game together without using any of his high leverage guys.
We didn't know at the time, but one of them,
Daniel Hudson, was down for whatever reason. He pitched the

(23:55):
day before, wasn't feeling well. Okay, so now you've got
three high leverage guys in your bullpen. The game's now
six to three, it's now game again. You know, you
got one of the best offenses in the game, and
Mets have a closer in Edmond Diaz, who, let's face it,
has been shaky, and they push him into the game
into the eighth inning. So this game is far from over.

(24:17):
So now we get to the ninth inning and he's
got Edguardia Henriquez on the mound. This is a kid
who's thrown three and a third major league innings. This
is a kid who's twenty two years old, who has
a walk rate of almost six walks per night innings
in the minor leagues. What in the world is he
doing out there in a three run game, a playoff game,

(24:37):
in the ninth inning, when you have an off day
the next day and your lineup is about to turn
over to show Heyo Tani, Mookie Betts, Tascar, Hernandez and
Freddie Freeman you are in this game. I don't get it.
And none of his high leveraged guys got up in
that bullpen. And what happens? This is really bad. Joe

(24:58):
Pete a Lonzo gets a walk. I mentioned this kid
really has command issues. Pete Alonzo walks into second base
with a stolen base, uncontested. How in the world does
that happen? The defense is completely on their toes. He
Alonso is not a base stealer. To put it mildly,
take second, he scores on a base hit. Now it's
a four run game. And now when Betts and Hernandez

(25:21):
come up with two men on, they're not the tying
run anymore. And Diaz comes into the game, he was
so shaky. In fact, they had a guy up behind
him in a bullpen after two batters. I just don't
understand how you're not using at least one of your
high leverage guys to keep the game at six to three.
You've got an off day the next day, and you
let a postseason game get away from you, which should

(25:44):
never happen. That's the cardinal rule for me. You're in
a postseason game, man, if you got a chance to
win the game, you have to keep trying to win
that game and stop worrying about, hey, we got three
games in a row in New York.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
Okay. First of all, jug run. I'm into the jug run.
That is when you're huge when you score on the.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Top of the ninth with the leader, at the bottom
of the eighth with the lead, and that's what they did,
and that totally deflates the other side. I've been on
that stuff since the mid eighties and Instructional League. All
my teams in the Angel organization back then, the Rays
and then the Cubs always wanted to jug run. Wanted
the jug run. Go for the jugular. That's number one,
and it happened, and that is devastating.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Number two. The kid throws a hundred, that's all they
cared about.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
He throws a hundred, but we could put up with
the walks because nobody contacts him. That's exactly the conversation.
They're looking for the swing and miss right there. He's
more than likely Okay, he's going to walk a guy
or two, but they're not going to move the baseball.
They're not going to get hits, they're not going to
score any runs. And then the next part about it
is Diaz, I mean, you're right. I mean, if I
go into that last inning with a three point lead

(26:40):
or deficit and he's pitching, and I can get this
leadoff guy on, we're pretty good shape.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
And it's an updown for him as well. Don't forget
that he's already gotten pitched in the eighth any exactly.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
And then the part of the batting leader that's coming
up is really important also that you just described, So
all of these things are factors, and here comes a
day off. I don't trying to justify. I think that
the Dodgers looking for no contact, accept the walks and
possibly I don't even know if this is true or not,
but get him in the game. Get him in the
game because we might need him in a more crucial moment,

(27:11):
and we need to get him in here right now
to get used to this situation so that when we
need him when it really does count, and an even
our head situation, he has already pitched in this playoff situation.
So I missed rationalization wise. I'm just trying to figure
out different things. But I'm big into the jug run.
They got it. I would be when you're looking at
the other team that you're trying to be late, who's

(27:31):
their closer? Witch's mo and this, and you know DIA's
got a great arm. Finally yesterday started throwing his fastball too,
which he just needs to stick to.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yes And here's an interesting part of that, Joe, Okay, okay, one,
because you're right, I think he's been and Carlos Mendoza
told us this, he's been too tentative, and sometimes the
game actually has sped up on him. He's were lighting
the slider a lot. What he said was when he
got that jug run you're talking about, his mentality then became,

(28:00):
I'm going to throw fastballs down the middle of the
plate and then if I have to tighten up and
start working edges, I will. So you're right, that jug
run changed so many layers to that game. That fourth run,
that fourth run of the lead.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
It does.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
And again I'm telling you, I can't tell how much
this goes back to the mids eighties and.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Instructional League in Arizona.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
We played every day September fifteenth October, they got right
up into Halloween, and that was a big emphasis every game,
whether we got a jug run or not.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
And even to this day.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Like I heard Eddie Perez the other night on want
of the broadcasts mentioned that was a jug run, and
that's exactly right. You want to score in your last
at bat with a lead. It definitely takes some hair
or pressure off that your relief picture, your relief picture general,
your manager, I mean, because there's different decisions to be made.
It opens things up for you a little bit when
you have that little bit of breathing room, and so

(28:52):
It's a huge concept. I love it, done it forever,
and they got it and that was a big part
of the victory.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
I agree, yeah, Listen, I didn't have a problem with
the way Dave Roberts that's that game together to get
to that point. You know, some people were asking, you know,
do you get your high leverage guys in there early?
But no, I think once you got back into the
game at six ' three, somebody's got to be available
in the bullpen of every three guys that you had
left there, you know, Kopak and Phillips trying to one

(29:20):
of those guys to come in to avoid that drug
jug run because that You're right, that's an absolute dagger.
One of the things that concerns me about the Dodgers, Joe,
is what they do with their pitching sometimes. So now
they've got Walker, Bueller and yes Younobu you have a
moto going, and they have not gotten length out of
those guys either. So I'm sure that was on Dave Roberts'
mind either. He's kind of managing the next three games,

(29:43):
knowing three games in a row and he doesn't really
have a starter other than I guess Flaherty, right, now,
who's going to give him length. I think it's a
tough type rope for the Dodgers to walk when they
have to do this every day, and as we know,
they tend to be more on the aggressive side and
getting starters out and going to the bullpen than most
teams anyway.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, that's the part about regular season, and even it
bleeds into the postseason. As a manager, you're just not
managing that night's bullpen. You're managing days in advance bullpen
also also days that it just occurred. How many pitches
did the guy throw? Many times has he been up,
What does he feel like with the conversation before the game,

(30:22):
What did he say to the pitching coach and to
the bullpen coach before the game when he was playing
catch in the outfield. All these things are managed. All
these things are managed. That's the big part. That's why
bullpen use and usage was always my biggest concern, taking
care of your bullpen guys, because they do pretty much,
especially in today's game, they control the whether you're going

(30:42):
to hold the trophy.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Or not at the end of the year. So it's
not just about today's game.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
It definitely you have an eye on the moment, and
you're always always visualizing tomorrow, the next day, whatever.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Now when you get to.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Is this time of the year and even to the
regular season. For me, I always wanted to win tonight's
game because you never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
It could be a blowout one way or the other.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Your starter can throw a night inning shut off, Paul,
who knows. But you're always trying to win tonight's game.
But you have to always somehow be prudent about what
may occur and can we actually cover that if it
does occur that way A long man, A long man
if something happens, or you're always worried about if something
goes wrong early and how are we going to cover,
how we're going to cover That's always a part of

(31:26):
the next day's strategy too. You'll say, Okay, you know,
use your bullpen tonight because Johnny Lester is starting tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
He's gonna probably pitch at least six or seven, So
don't worry about it. You know, I get that.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
But you're still worry about what about a line drive
off the ankle? So all these things are always considered
as you're trying to piece this thing together. What just happened?
What you guys feel like, here's tonight. This is my strategy.
But what do we what do we have ahead of us? Also,
and how were going to cover? So that's all part
of the conversation.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Let's go back to Lindoor. You brought up his name, Joe,
and you know it's funny you mentioned about the intentional
walk and you were there of yourself on the other
side facing Lindor. He will force the manager to make decisions, right.
So I asked Dave Roberts before this series, you know
who in that Mets lineup is going to grab your attention?

(32:16):
You really can't let beat you. And he said Lindor,
and then he said Lindor and then he said Lindor.
I think he made his point right, and Francisco Lindor
is one of these I'm curious to see, Joe if
you've got a comp to someone like this that you
played with, managed whatever, but superstar player, we know that.

(32:39):
But he gives you so much more. He rises to
the moment. He is extremely calm, and what he's doing
this year and especially this postseason, to me, is reminiscent
of Derek Jeter at nineteen ninety six, where to me,
it seemed like Jeter was batting out of order because
he was up there all the time when anything happened.
If you go back and look at the ninety six
Yankees and how they came from behind in won big games,

(33:02):
Jeter is in the middle or at the finish of
every one of those rallies. And I look at Lindor
and I see the same thing happening. Go back to
early in the season when Carlos Mendoz, when he was
struggling by the way Lindor was struggling, Carlos Mendoza made
the great move of putting him in the leadoff spot. Now,
Francisco hasn't been a full time leadoff hitter in five years,
but what Mendoza thought was, this is going to force

(33:24):
it takes some pressure off him. Where doesn't feel like
he has to hit home runs and drive in runs,
but to see pitches and get on base. That's exactly
what has happened, and he has flourished in that role.
A few weeks later, that's when they had that awful
game against the Dodgers. They're twenty two and thirty three
players only meeting after the game. Who called the meeting

(33:44):
Francisco Lindor. Then you get late in the season, of course,
the home run in Game one sixty one that puts
him in the postseason off. Iglesias turned a loss into
a win, clinch a playoff spot with that. Then you
go back to the rally against Devin Williams that clinched
the Division Series. Alonso, Yeah, I hit the home run,
But how did it begin? It began with Lindor working
a walk off Williams after falling behind one and two

(34:06):
on the count. We talked about the home run against Estivus,
the Grand Slam in the clincher of the ds I.
Now we talk about losing nine to nothing in Game
one of this CS and Lindor comes back the next afternoon,
sees nine pitches, hits the ninth one out of the ballpark.
This guy's just got more than a knack, Joe and
the other thing, And I'm I'm curious how you look

(34:28):
at this, Joe. I'm down there next to the Mets dugout,
and I can tell you I have not seen a
player who engaged with his teammates more during a game.
I'm talking about what he sees on the field and
telling them what's going on, what he sees in the pitcher,
patters are developing, pulling guys aside. It's constant in there.

(34:49):
And I asked him about that and he said, listen,
we're all prepared with information. We have all the numbers,
we know the scouting reports, we have hitters meetings before
the game, but there's nothing like your view from the
batter's box. And he said, that's what I do. I'll
go the players and say, you know, his fastball is
running today, or it's cutting today, or he's in a
pattern with when he uses his breaking ball early in account.

(35:12):
He's passing these things on to everybody, whether it's other
young players are veteran players. And I can tell you, Joe,
I've not seen a player. I've been in everybody's dugout,
but I've not seen a great player who is so
integral to how a team adjusts in real time in
the course of a game. And I think that makes
them even more valuable than what we know of Francisco

(35:32):
Lindor with his skills.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Every team wants that. Every team talks about that.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
When it comes to we just say offensively hitters right now,
you'll have that in the beginning of the season, you'll
have that meeting and you'll see.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Guys talking to one another.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
The guy that just hit coming back, he'll talk to
the guy coming up to the plate, or definitely talk
to the guy in the hole. I'll get in a
dugout and pass along some information, so you have that.
I mean, that's not like that's unusual. I can't tell
you that I've had a guy that does everything you're
describing with Lindor, I can't. I've had some really good

(36:06):
players I wrote down Longo. Longo had some really big
hits for the Tampa Bay Rays. Longo came up in
twenty thousand and eight, two thousand and eight, and he
was a difference maker.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
He's the guy that really helped set us apart.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
That year we got to the World Series after losing
one hundred and some games and almost one hundred games.
And next year then all of a sudden, we win
ninety seven I think it wasn't ninety eight, and we
go to the World Series.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Longo was a huge part of that team.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Right there, I could talk about other guys on the field.
We had better players, Andrew did a great job of acquisitions,
but Longo had this thing, and he hit the home run,
that famous home ran on the left field line on
the best night in the history of baseball, when we
clinched over the Red Sox, Longo hit that home run.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Hey Joe, let me stop you there and ask you
about Longo. Sure, okay, because it reminds me a story
Dusty Baker likes to tell. He goes to Michigan and
talks to Bo Schenblecker, the great Michigan football coach, and
he said, Coach, you've got, you know, a freshman linebacker,
You've got a junior linebacker pretty similar in what they do.
How do you decide? You know which guy you're who's

(37:10):
going to be your captain, you know which guy you're
going to lean on, which guy is going to get
that big hit for you? And he said, I look
into their eyes. Can you tell something about a Longoria
or Lindor as a manager that this guy is not
going to be I don't even want to use the
word scared, but he's going to be calm in the
biggest moments.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
There's definitely a conversationally, there's always an evenness probably the
best way I could describe it. And there's an even
quality about them when you speak with them before a game,
and then when you speak to them during the game,
same guy. There's there's no there's no vacillation here. It's
always you're always talking to the same dude. It doesn't

(37:51):
get too fast for him.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Ever.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
A Longo had this great routine that he had him
and Kenny Rivisi put together. If you ever saw a
Longo come up to the plate, part of his routine
was to look up at the left field foul pole,
and by looking up to the left field foul pole,
that put him into a little mental rocking chair. That
got him into that little thing that he did with
the bat, that little rock kind of a thing that's
standing really tall, and he was so loose and quick

(38:14):
with the bathead, and the ball just exploded off of
his bat. He had this routine about himself. He knew his.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Prep was always the same. It never got too quick
for him. Defensively, same thing outstanding, third basement, not just
good outstanding.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
So I think it has a lot to do. There's
this even temperedness about these guys that it's just nurtured
over time. I think, you know, Lindor came out for
Puerto Rico. Longo came from a great program at Long
Beach State, and a lot of it is the mental
component of the game that Longo I thought did so well,
and everything you're describing about Lindor is the same thing.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
The mental part of the.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Game that he does so well, doesn't speed up on him.
He doesn't participate necessarily in history onics that are going
on today. He doesn't have to be part of bat
flipping and all this exorbitant ac celebration. I'm going to
go out there and play baseball and I'm going to
show my guys how to do it.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
That's what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Very professional for a lack of a better word about him,
And people say, oh, you mean to tell me if
a guy flips his back whatever he gets performs the
history onics and whatever, that he's not professional. There's there's
there's a certain component to that that it's part of
the you know, the the me me me society that
we have, even like NFL players celebrating in the end zone,
and I know people like that. I think it's really weird,
but there's a there's a mental component to these guys

(39:27):
that is steady and bad or good.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
It's not just about good.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
When they're doing something well, when they're doing something's not
going so well. Same guy you heard Lindor all season
when things weren't going well for the Mets. He was
the voice of reason constantly. He had answered something, and
he answers the tough questions all the time, and he
does it in a very kind of succinct and direct way.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
I love all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
So I think it's you look at the physical abilities,
but you really have to look at the mental capabilities
of these people in the ability to slow things down,
really don't get too powerfully in love with themselves when
it goes well, and don't necessar beat yourself up badly
when it doesn't. That's the way that that's Wheeland Dore plays,
and that's what I.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Love about it. Great stuff, Joe. I love the Longoria stuff,
a guy who I think historically is actually underrated and
obviously an important part of your Pennant winning team with
Tampa Bay. Hey, we'll take a quick break. We mentioned
the Phillies. We'll also talk about the Padres. What happened
to a couple of teams that look like they would
be World Series contenders.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
We'll dive into that right after this, the Philadelphia Phillies Joe.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Disappointment for me because not just because I thought they
were a World Series team, but they really didn't show
well against the New York Mets. And to me, it
came down to one word, and that is chase. I
just looked at the percentage of pitches in the strike
zone for each team in the postseason that they saw,
and the Phillies by far saw the fewest pitches in

(41:07):
the strike zone. They just had a lot of similar players,
and again, I look for a lot of balance, but listen,
you're not gonna win a pennanty and you chase outside
of the strike zone. As much as the Phillies did,
I don't know whether they felt, you know, enormous expectations.
There were definitely a lot on this team. They looked

(41:27):
like a team that was battle tested. So I'm not
saying the moment got them. I think more you look
at the team, Joe, the way it's built, and they
have a lot of similar hitters and even Bryce Harper,
it's just part of their mo that they're going to chase,
and you see in the postseason, good teams can take
advantage of that. And I think the Mets did a
tremendous job of taking the Phillies aggressiveness and turning it

(41:48):
against them, and you can say Arizona did the same
thing last year.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, I mean that's where you know that to borrow
some phrases, the large sample size works during the regular season, right,
it's like one hundred and sixty two games, you're gonna
go through, you get ebb and flow, We're gonna chase
a little bit, and all of a sudden we to stop chase.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
We're just going to batter you for like two or
three weeks.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
We get the record back in good shape, and all
of a sudden, it comes another bad week. Everything starts
trending in the wrong direction, we start chasing, et cetera,
and then balances out of it. Because I think there
was just a five hundred team for the majority of
the season.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Philly's correct. After a really good start.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well great start, they look like the best team in
baseball the first two months. But yeah, especially in the
second half of the season, it seemed like once they
got back from London and like mid June, yeah, that
was a long time, they played mediocre baseball.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
They did, so, you know, so in the large the
regular season, the large sample size works.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
You could you could vacillate so much.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
But this has always been my argument with when it
comes down to prefer for game and analytics, it's the
trends that matter. So you talk about a team that's
built for the playoffs or not, I never really bought
into that. I'm just paying a little bit more attention
to it now what that really means. And right now
it's a playoff series is a trend. It's not a
large sample size. It's a trend, and you can you

(43:01):
can you work your way through this particular trend this moment.
Judge not playing performing well, but other guys are picking
this up because they're augmented and they're just not relying
on one factor in this situation.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
So it's not okay to chase.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
It's not right now you're just describe the Yankees and
how they beat the Royals and how they're in the
first game to be the same group with the Guardians.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
The trend there is they're not chasing. And if you're
not chasing, your hitting. I said, tell j T Snow
this all the time. I love Jackie Snow.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Jackie, let's sent back to the minor leagues for a
bit when he was there, and I worked with him
as a hitter, and I usually say to Jackie when
he comes down to first base, to a coach in
first base.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Jackie, when you're walking, you're hitting.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
And it just really comes down to that, once you
have your strike zone organized, you can hit to your capabilities.
Whether you're a three hundred hitter or a two fifty
hit or whatever you are, whatever that max component of
your abilities is, you'll be able to reach that if
you have this part of your game under control, if
you have your organized strike zone. So you're talking about

(44:08):
the large sample size the Phillies, Yeah, they chase, so
they're gonna bludge in you for a bit, and sometimes
they're not. But where you get a group like the
Yankees or the Old Red Sox whatever, where their large
sample size was that they didn't chase, that they did
evaluate pitches. So when you get to a smaller trendy
situation like a playoff game, they have a better chance
of taking this too. The more opportunity for the Phillies

(44:30):
to continue to swing at everything, greater opportunity for the
Yankees to not right now and really organize their strike zone.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
So that's what's going on.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
It's not complicated, and you talked about it earlier while
you like the Yankees, and I think you're right. I mean,
and I think that's what you have to what got
you here? And is it sustainable? Is it work in
a small situation, a small seven game series, even three
game series, two a five game series. So the trends matter.
I've always been a trend guy. What's going on right now,

(45:00):
and that's why I think, like you're talking about, the
Yankees have a pretty good chance of being well. Actually,
all four teams have got here for different reasons. But
the Yankees look like the Yankees their typical DNA m
O right now, and whereas the Phillies totally also followed
their DNA and they continued to struggle by expanding the
strike zones.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, and listen, Philly, they're kind of locked in with
their roster. There's not much they can do to pivot.
This is the you know, this is the roster they
have and a lot of long term deals, so I
don't look for big changes. I want to get your
take on this, Joe, and that's Alec Boehm, the third
baseman in the first half of the season. He was
probably their best RBI producer. He's the guy you wanted
up there in the big spot. He uses the whole field.

(45:41):
He's a great breaking ball hitter. You see a lot
of breaking balls with rathers in scoring position, and he did,
and actually in his career he's done really well in
those spots. He hurt his hand early in September and
when he got back, he just was not the same player.
I mean, just a dreadful slump that carried into the
postseason and it's like they lost one of the their

(46:04):
key RBI guys in the middle of the lineup. There's
one day, but Rob Thompson actually sat him down and
one of the things that Rob saw was that emotionally
it was eating this guy up, and I saw it
down there in the dugout, you know, throwing helmets. The
body language was just terrible frustrated. That's what I saw,
a guy who was really, really frustrated. Rob Thompson made

(46:26):
an interesting point, and this is what I wanted to
get your take on Joe. He said he's done a
really good job Alec Bowe from not taking his offense
out to defense, which is great because the knock on
Alec early on was that he was not a plus defender,
but he's made himself a pretty good one. So his
offensive struggles did not bleed into his defense. That's great,
but he said, what they're trying to get him to
do is not to let one at bat bleed into another.

(46:49):
One bad game bleed into another, even one bad swing
bleed into another. In other words, he was never really
able to stop this runaway train of a slump because
he was working off that line swing or the last
pitch that he didn't hit. It's an interesting thing to
see on the big league level, Joe, and I'm not
sure what the answer is, but they were unable to

(47:11):
get this guy on track.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's the We just talked about the mental approach with
a couple guys before Lindor and Longo. I mean, it
really comes down to that, and that's why I'm an
advocate of really having a strong mental skills program in
all these organizations.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
I know some are more into it, others or not.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
And I had the best So I had Kenny Riviizev
since the mid eighties until he passed a couple of
years ago. That's guys like him, like Kenny matter. They
absolutely matter. This kid here just needs some kind of structure,
just like he needs a hitting coach, or like whatever
the pitchers are, they need their pitching coach. You also

(47:50):
need a mental skills coach. It's no different than teaching
hitting or pitching or fielding as far as I'm concerned.
When you don't come equipped with the ability to slow
things down or just file things or just throw them
in the garbage can when it's not too good, and
also not getting overly exuberant when it does go well.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
That is a skill.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
And I definitely believe you love the guys that come
with bells and whistles. It's already attached nice, it's part
of the standard equipment. They already got it. But there's
certain guys that don't. And I do know for a fact,
and I've seen it, that it can be.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
It can be taught.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
It can be taught to the point where it could
absolutely be incorporated in hot moments when things aren't going well,
no question in my mind. So exactly whe I would
start with him, I more than his First of all,
he's injured, so there's there's something to be said for that.
Who knows how he felt and what the fat felt
like in his hand, or how much pain he actually
had when he swung whatever. But I definitely believe more

(48:47):
attention to mental skills, and I don't there's there's not
as many of those guys.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
Available right now, at least I don't.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
I'm not around enough, so I shouldn't even say this,
But there's not as many gurus like you know, Harvey
Dorfinn back in the day, Carl Keel back in the
day with Oakland, and then we had Kendra visit with
the Angels. Kenny's even worked with the New Zealand Blacks,
the rugby team out there rugby right, I mean, he's
been everywhere. I mean, all these tremendously successful organizations wanted

(49:17):
Kenny to be part of them. For me, for Bom,
that's why would focus in the offseason going to next
season good stuff.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Let's talk about the San Diego Padres, and here, Joe,
I think it's I actually thought going into the postseason,
not into the regular season, but into the postseason, I
thought they were best equipped to win the World Series.
And to me, it's a good example of what happens
in these small sample sizes. I didn't see an obvious
flaw or reason why they didn't get by the Dodgers.
They were up two games to one in the series,
couldn't close it out. Mike Schilt sent Dylan Ceas out

(49:46):
to the mound on short rest, and he did not
provide a good start. Simple as that just didn't have it.
I like Dylan Sees a lot, but I've seen it
happen with him. Sometimes his command gets a little squirrely
and then you darbush It puts really well in Game five,
but just got outpitched by Yamamoto and the Dodger bullpen.

(50:09):
I like the team a lot. I think they came
a long way. I think Mike Schilt did an incredible
job with this group that was, let's face it, underachieving
and quite frankly fractured the previous season, and he brought
that team together and they had a great second half run.
As I said, they just couldn't finish off the Dodgers.
But I think it was just a matter of a

(50:29):
short sample size. What's your take on San Diego?

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Well, yeah, I mean the Ceas thing.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
The short rest always bothered me. With today's pitchers. Today,
starting pitchers, they're not used to doing it.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Well, first of all, let me stop you there, okay,
because we say short rest, that's traditionally three days, right,
What did he have the majority of starts in the
major leagues these days and it has been now for
several years, is five plus days? Four days is actually
short rest now for most starting pitchers. Very few pitchers
make the majority of their starts on four days. So

(51:00):
when you're going and got three days, that's short short rest.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Go ahead, that's dramatic. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Whatever your regular program is, and when they when they
get away from that.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
It's hard to expect a good result. It just is.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
I didn't realize he was that short of resk because
that my thing was the beginning of that series on
MLB Network, they asked me the question, what do you
feel about the cease not getting the ball for the
first game, holding him back and they gave it to
King instead, And part of it was for me it
was like San Diego knows who they think their best.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Picture exactly, and King was their best picture.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Correct, So they knew that, so that I didn't know
that because I didn't watch them often enough. But that's
that was my conclusion after watching all that, So to
bring him back on short rest, see to me, I'd
be more I think, because again I'm not there, but
having Cease held back for possibly extra innings might have
been more of a possibility. Got all this adrenaline flow.

(51:56):
I know he's never done it before, but if you
need him, he's there.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah. Well, let me give you the options.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
You could start Martine Perez okay, or you could go bullpen,
start to finish bullpen game and then you have Darbish
and Cease lined up for game number five.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Gotcha.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
I think what Mike Schilt is thinking was, Hey, I've
got Cese on short rest and Darvish. I'm going to
fire both of those bullets. But you bringing up another option,
and that is maybe you start the game with Perez
and seeing how the game goes, you've got to Ceason
the bullpen as an option if you want to do that.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
I mean again, I'm not being there, not knowing all
the facts and figures. I'm not even pretending that because
I know how important it is that boots on the ground.
You have to have your boots on the ground. You
have to have a feel for the clubhouse. You've got
to know these young men. You got to know what
they're capable of doing, you know how they feel. You
got to look in the eyeballs. All that stuff matters.
So this is all conjecture based on information. So but

(52:49):
for me, short rest always was concerning. And that was
even when the guys were going on every fifth day
with four days rest. Now you're like, you're saying, the
norm is different right now, But yeah, that was the
thing with the ce stare, with the short rest, and
I was concern and that was it right there.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Obviously, that was it. That's the Padres.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
After getting ahead like they got ahead and having to
lose the last two games, we thought, and I thought,
I mean, gosh, they have so much momentum. I'm watching
the Dodgers in the dugout. To the Dodgers' credit, they
looked so down, but they weren't. They were stoic. I
mean they showed Dave Roberts in the dugout. David kind
of had a decent look about him in spite of
the factor of getting their butts kicked in that game three.

(53:31):
So I got to give them credit, man, to be
getting your butts kicked that badly and come back and pretty.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Much decimate him over two games. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
So give the Dodgers a lot of credit because I
really thought that the Padres had him down, but they
did not.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
The Dodgers, with their veteranship and their pedigree, showed you why.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Well, it's been a really good postseason. We've seen home
field advantage means almost nothing. I think it's right now
a flat five hundred winning percentage for a home field
and we've already seen more comeback wins this postseason than
we saw all of last year. So I think the
games have been pretty good. But I think overall, Joe,
we're looking at you know, this is nothing new in baseball.

(54:09):
Bullpen's dominating the way the game is played. Most decisions
managers are making in the postseason now are about bullpen usage.
And it's interesting here as we get into the seven
game series where managers like Dave Roberts are paying more
attention to the longer haul when it comes to how

(54:29):
they use their guys. So when we get to my
favorites are always Joe, when we get to that sudden
death game, the double elimination game, you know, Game five
in the DS or Game seven and the LCS and
I hope we get at least one, because that's Those
are my favorite games.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
I'll tell you what they are. Hair raising.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
I've been in several and in those games. For me personally,
I don't know the right word is agonized, but I
would really sit and look at my stuff on paper
in my hotel room the night before than the day of.
I would always pour poor, poor over things. But at
the end of the day they I always try to
convince myself never to overthink it either, because I think

(55:09):
that's a threat too, to try to come out of
your normal patterns and try to whatever reach for whatever
this panacee is, this thought or whatever the the remedy
is to get this thing done. You just got to
be pretty normal about it. But you have to have
your plan, and it's it's it's interesting, it's fun, it's exhilarating,

(55:29):
it's all kinds of different things. But I agree with you,
it'd be wonderful to get to that point with these
with these teams coming down to the end right now,
but it is. It's playoff baseball. The weather definitely indicates
that right now. It was always the best time of
the year. It was always my favorite time of the year,
it still is, So it's going to be fascinating. I
think we're talking about it looks like the the Yankees

(55:52):
should roll over the Guardians. But tonight is obviously a
very important game. And every time the Guardians seem to
be out of it this year, they weren't, you know,
they they pulls them back in and they start doing
some magical things. And I Stephen votes very very level
headed about this. I watch him, I listen to him,
I know him. He's probably the perfect guy for that

(56:12):
group right now, the way he handles all this. So
let's see what happens tonight. And on the other end
of things, Dodgers match, it's just going to be knock down,
drag him out the rest of the way. The Mets
have this extreme resilience and the Dodgers, like I said,
have this pedigree. So it's going to be fun to watch.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah, I'm with you on the Guardians. I'll happily be
surprised if they turned this into a long series. But
that's a team that was trailing, facing elimination to Trek
Scooble and won the game. So that tells you don't
count them out, all right, Joe, Now, it's time for
you to take the ball and close this thing out,
this latest edition of the Book of Joe. What do
you have for us today?

Speaker 2 (56:51):
Well, you know again, I actually said it several times
early on and kind of alluded to it. But attitudes
are more important than facts. I mean, you could get
these juggernaut groups that are supposed to roll over people,
and we're talking about baseball right obviously, and the facts
and the numbers would indicate there's no chance.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
But attitude matters. Man.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Attitude is a decision. That's something I got from Kenny Riviza.
That was one of my favorites. I used to I
put that on the fridge out of my printer, printed
up very nicely on the fridge back in Masa and
Sarah Joey were growing up, and every morning they'd walk
into the kitchen they'd see, Attitude is a decision. You
can control how you feel, you can control how you

(57:31):
can go about your business. It's no important, no kind
of synonymous with whatever you put out there is going to.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
Come back to you.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Attitude is a decision, and attitudes then become more important
than facts. So for me right now, attitudinally I really
paytent like be alluded to this earlier. I really pay
attention to how I think or perceive that guys are
going about their business, and I think that matters a lot.
So this is where Goliath David does be Goliath. This

(57:59):
is where he just throws that stone.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
It's right between the eyeballs and all of a sudden,
you never know what hits you. So I pay attention
to that.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
So facts are facts, and even facts and opinions have
become so blurred anymore.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
But I really am interested in people and players and
how they go about their business. And right now, this
time of the year, we're just talking about, like see
what the Guardians do tonight. Attitudes can be way more
important than facts.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
I like that. It reminds me of a sign that
Handley Ramirez had hanging in his locker when he played
for the Dodgers, and the sign said, attitude is a choice.
Pick a good one.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
That's it. That's on the money man, on the money.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
Good stuff. Joe, We'll see you next time on the
Book of Joe, Happy Travels, Brothers, Sababy