January 7, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci explore the current state of first base in MLB. Joe describes his 'prototype' first baseman and gives his thoughts on Pete Alonso's future deal moving so slowly. What obstacles could be in the way of Billy Wagner's Hall of Fame chances? Tom highlights a court ruling that could change the landscape of College Baseball. Plus, our yearly look at what the hot cars for 2024 were and what new ride could Joe be adding to his fleet?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, Welcome back. It's the latest episode of the
Book of Joe with Tom Verducci and Joe Madden. Joe,
(00:24):
I got a question for you about first basement. Do
you have an idea as a manager, like what your
prototypical first basement is? And if you want, you could say,
Dick Allen, your guy growing up, going into the Hall
of Fame this summer, But give me your idea the
prototypical first basement.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I like, actually, I like a left tended first baseman
because of the whole I've always felt he can cover
the ground to his right a little bit better than
a right hander Ken Obviously, I also like him from
the perspective of tagging, you know, first base on a
pickoff throw, whether it's from the picture of the catcher.
I like a first basement that throws well. It's just
(01:00):
so underrated the double play from the three to six
to three player, even the times you have to throw
to home plate an occasionally on a relay. So I
like at least an accurate arm. So I'm gonna go
there first. But of course, hitting wise, if it doesn't
have extreme power, it's the ability to really hit for
a high on base percentage, a good number, whether it's
(01:22):
Keith r. Nandez, I had, Wally Joinner, will actually sign
Wally Joiner. That kind of guy is compared to God.
I love Dick, like you've talked about. That's my favorites.
So it depends on what else you have on your team.
But that's it. I mean, I like the lefty over there,
if at all possible, and then with the offensive side
normally not the best base runner. Maybe Warren Crowmarty might
(01:42):
have been of an exception, but for the most part
I liked. I liked the defense, and then of course
either power or just a really extreme ability to get
on base and hit.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, as you were going through some of your your
criteria for first basement, especially on the defensive side, but
in my mind's eye kept seeing Anthony Rizzo making all
those plays over there. And who's been better at covering
the bunt since Kei Hernandez than Anthony Rizzo. I mean,
he's a weapon on defense. The reason I bring it up, Joe,
is the state of first basement in Major League Baseball
(02:14):
right now is, in a word, terrible. I don't know
why this is I don't think there's a reason. I
think these things do go in cycles. But let me
throw some numbers at you. First baseman in the twenty
twenty fourth season hit two forty eight. That is the
lowest ever in a full season, the worst batting average
(02:35):
ever for first baseman power. How about home runs the
lowest in a decade since twenty fourteen. On base percentage
the third lowest in the history of the position. Only
we're going back to the dead ball era here, Joe
nineteen fourteen and nineteen sixteen were lower. RBIs lowest in
(02:56):
a generation going back to nineteen ninety two, and slugging
it's tied for the lowest in a full season since
seventy eight. I mean, when I sat down looked at this,
I knew it wasn't great. I didn't realize just how
bad it is.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Listen, I understand it's hard to get a hit in
today's game, There's no question about that. And a pitcher
is basically because of how we can develop them and technology,
have the upper hand and offense. But my goodness, we're
talking about guys who can't it for average and don't
it for power. It's a problem around the game.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I mean, as you're saying all that, does it also
apply to third basement? I mean, in general, are guys
just gravitating more like the to the center of the field,
whether it's catching second, short, and center field, I don't know.
I mean that's always as a young Scott, I was
told to look up the middle, and that's what I
always did. Gene Thompson taught me that when I started
(03:46):
scouting in nineteen eighty one. Look up the middle. But
as you're like, as you're repeating all of that, I'm
just thinking about third basement in general right now, and
there's very few that I think really reach a huge number.
You're gonna correct me on this, I'm sure, but I don't.
I don't have a strong reason why that is. It's
not a position that unmally want to platoon with, although
(04:08):
maybe there's been more platooning and maybe that's part of
the issue. I don't know, But it's one of those
questions that if I was, if I was in the
dugout and actually seeing us on a daily basis, I
might have a better answer for you. But it just
seems as though corner guys in general maybe aren't as
prolific as they had been.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, it seems to me. And for years, I think
general manager's front offices they've kind of mixed and matched
in left field. You know, left field is kind of
a catch all position, right guys through there, and that's
happening now at first base for some reason, just obviously
a lack of really good options. Just to give you
an example, the Milwaukee Brewers first baseman and they made
the playoffs, won the division. They had two hundred it
(04:49):
was the worst in baseball. Padres first baseman twelve home
runs all year. The Reds had a two sixty nine
on base percentage, and the Yankees were worse in baseball
with two hundred total bases at first base. And that's
why they're taking a flyer. I'm Paul Goldschmith, thirty seven
years old, coming off his worst season, and I bring
this up, Joe, because I wanted to talk about Pete Alonso.
(05:12):
We just established that the first base market is really thin.
There's a lot of teams that need some sock at
first base, and yet Pete Alonso is still out there
as we turned the corner to the new year. He's
a guy in his first six years in the big leagues,
he's averaged thirty eight home runs. I mean, he's a
plug and play, middle of the order guy. Yes, we
know all of his flaws, but in terms of a
(05:34):
guy who's going to hit his home runs, he's pretty
reliable in that regard. I want to get your take
on Pete Alonzo and why the market for him really
has not been that good or at least fast.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, as you're saying all this again my thin slicing,
it's it's something to do with analytics. Obviously, they're probably
seeing a very not a gradual decline with these guys,
but a steep decline. And gold Smith, though, was a
little bit older. I've always been a Goldsmith fan. Gosh,
he's been so good. But then you look at a
Christian Walker, it's not nearly the glamorous position. Then the
names aren't as glamorous as they had been at one time. Possibly,
(06:09):
but with the Alonso, you know, the home runs are there.
I just think there might be considered inconsistency with some
parts of his game. I mean, I know he can
get very streaky, but a lot of guys with power
can defensively He's okay, is it? Are they actually, like
you're talking, we're talking offenses. Are there some of the
lesser than hitters right now considered good defenders. Are they
(06:30):
attempting to going to run prevention at this position because
they just don't see enough offensive people there, like for instance,
I mean just really saving errors on shortstops and third
basemen whatever. Being able to pick balls in the dirt
thanks to that nature, to me have always always important.
I got I loved looking out there and knowing my
(06:50):
first base was going to handle everything that somebody threw
at him. So with the decline in offense, maybe there's
become a more of a premium on defense. I don't
know that either for a fact. It's just you're right.
I have no specific answer. It just seems odd because
this was a position that was full of guys, real guys.
For years. Every team you played against that a guy
(07:11):
over there, and he was to be reckoned with, whether
primarily offensively. And then when you have the defense of
the guy that can combine an offense with defense. You
brought up rizz Riz was great with the Angels, you know,
I had Garren Erstadt who was outstanding. Scott Spiezio with
the Rays was like Carlos Pena always had a good
first basement guy that can hit it with power and
really play his position. So, man, I'd love to know
(07:34):
the answer. Just it sounds like it's analytically driven to me,
but I don't know that for a fat well.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think you're right, Yes, I think there's more buy
in in front offices on the defensive metrics. So if
the numbers show Pete A. Lonso is not a great defender,
and I don't think he is even by the eye test. Listen,
he's pretty good at digging balls out of the dirt
that you were talking about, but every time he has
to make that three to one play, it's a roller coaster.
He just hold your breath, doesn't have a lot of range,
(08:00):
hands aren't great on ground balls. But again paying for
the slug. And I think you're right in terms of analytics, Joe,
because when you look at his skills, Peede Alonzo's skills,
they're what the anlys people call older player skills, right.
I mean, he's not a quick twitch guy. He's not
a great runner, not a great defender. He's coming off
a year we had a career low slug and a
(08:23):
career high in his ground ball rate, so thirty years old,
not trending in the right direction. He's got an average
strikeout rate. You know, he's not guy who's gonna strike
out a ton. But when you look at his career, Joe,
I think the comps to me, and this is what
scares front office is Ryan Howard. Ryan Howard, you know,
(08:43):
after the age of thirty, had a total war wins
above replacement of negative two point four. His best year
was a one point two. He fell off a cliff
at thirty. You've got Chris Davis, You've got Cecil Fielder,
You've got Richie Sexson. I think the analytics people in
baseball look at Pete Alonzo and say, you know, I
(09:05):
don't know about five six years for a guy who's,
you know, a power only guy for the most part,
And I think that's where he's stuck. I mean, he
probably deserves a longer contract, but I don't know that
he's going to get it in this market.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What do you think, Yeah, it's just writing all that
kind of like little notes regarding that first analytically driven
and it's the perceived or anticipated decline rapidly, and I
think that's part of it. So I think there's teams
that would want him. But the worth value is what
does a team believe he's worth compared to what him
and his agent think that he's worth. I think that's
(09:40):
where the discrepancy lies. He might end up doing the
one year deal kind of a thing at a decent number,
trying to prove the point going into next season, although
that's going to get even worse more than likely body
type history, et cetera. So it's analytically driven issue. They
seem us on a rapid decline and not a slight
decline coming. Let this year, this passer into this year
(10:03):
and then and it's worth what do I think I'm
worth versus what you what do you think I'm worth?
And if a team could get him within their parameters
what they like somehow, and that would probably come down
to the last moment that will take a while. That
that's what you may see occur somebody way, himun on
a team like the Angels. I really I've said that
from the beginning. I think the Angels are perfect fit
(10:24):
for him based on his abilities and where he's at
and what they need. They need bang, they need a
little bit of a you know, sizzle you know, for
people to show up and watch them. The first basement
of the kid they got there, Shaneils. How do you
say his name?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Well, yeah, I mean he's a new Dave Maggot in essentially, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I've seen I've seen Dave Maggott and I haven't seen
that yet after from him yet. So, I mean that
was the first round draft pick, which surprised me based
on the type that he is of a hitter. And
again maybe the template has been totally fractured or demolished
by the analytical folks and we're looking for something else.
(11:03):
But again, last point, I think Alonzo will sign eventually,
and a team like Angels to me are like the
perfect team from the sign with and then it comes
down to with him what he thinks versus the team,
and then he's going to have to go out and
prove that he's worth more this year going to next.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, it's not a bad call for the Angels and
they certainly could use a banger like that. I put
Seattle in the same boat. You know, they've shown no
inclination to pay at that kind of level, but that's
the kind of bat that they need. And of course
the New York Mets are still in play, and I
think the Mets are playing this smart Joe. I think
there they'd like to have him back, but I think
they'd like to have him back at a shorter term
(11:42):
than Peter Alonso would prefer. So in this case, time
is on your side. I don't think it's imperative for
the Mets to sign Peede Alonzo. I think they're a
better team with him back in the lineup. But I
think it's going to play out for a few more weeks.
It seems like Joe I just don't think his market
has been fast developing. And I don't think you know,
he wants to jump on anything right now because he
(12:03):
hasn't heard what he.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Likes one hundred percent. That's exactly it has to be.
What's going on right now, Like you said, I mean
the dearth of power at that position, the fact that
he's demonstrated he can had a couple of big hits
this year in the postseason. Also the home run in Milwaukee,
pretty big, pretty late. And I'll tato one thing that
bothered me, if just from the eyeball test, and you
(12:26):
probably could tell me better than I know. I thought
he was having a hard time with fastball late in
the season, I agree, And if that's the case, that's
really going to be the red flag. When a guy
can't catch up with the fastball, that really reduces what
these pitchers have to do. And then they know exactly
the number that he can hit, and if he gets
above that number, just pumping fastballs, pumping fastballs, and then
(12:47):
on his side, he's going to have to start cheating
to get to the fastball and then here it comes
to break the ball that he's way ahead of. So
that's what I saw, And I don't know if that
is anything to do with the lack of interest, but
I think it's a combination of factors and the Mets. Yeah,
the fact that he's been success so there he knows
the ropes there. He can play there. You know. I
think for the most part, the fan base likes him
(13:09):
and then they have to be satisfied with whatever their
numbers projected he may turn out to be this year
is good enough for them to get back to the dance.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, we'll see pine Alonso is out there. I think
he's one of these players that'll be out there for
a while. But we'll keep tabs on that We're going
to take a quick break. When we come back, I
want to talk about the Hall of Fame vote coming
up and very interesting case. Billy Wagner is on his
last year on the ballot. Will he get in? He
came so close last year. No guarantees he will get in.
(13:38):
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
Hall of Fame announcement coming up later on this month.
Joe and I think everybody who's on that ballot has
(14:01):
their fingers crossed. I think each hero can feel pretty
good he's going in. Cecisa Bathfield looks like he's got
a really good shot to go in. Billy Wagner is
the guy for me. You know, normally you get that close,
you know a handful of votes from going in last year,
you just think, okay, he's gonna push it over the
goal line here, a little momentum, a little push in
the last year on the ballot, which typically happens, but
(14:22):
it didn't happen for Jack Morris, and no guarantees here.
First of all, give me your impressions on Billy Wagner
without a you know, breaking down the numbers and where
he sits, he's pitched against you. You've seen him there.
Give me your take on Billy Wagner's Hall of Fame candidacy.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, not a big guy, but gosh, the
ball got to the plate real fast. You didn't see
it very long. I mean, he just jumped out of
his hand. And he was successful for a long period
of time. It just seems to me that there's a
built in bias against him for some reason. I don't know.
I don't know if it's lack of size. I don't know,
if lack of championships. There's there's something working against him
(14:56):
that I am not definitely aware of. I did see
him somewhat. I didn't see him a lot. He was
in the other league as I was working my way
up through the ranks, But but one hundred miles at
one of the first one hundred mile an hour guys,
and did it consistently and from what I could gather,
great teammate always took the ball, that kind of stuff,
and I don't think he was really hurt over the
(15:18):
course of his career very often. So there's a lot
of consistency involved with him too. So it just seems
like a bias. I don't know it's a bias. And
again I don't even know what that might be, something
that's circulating that's preventing him from getting there. That's becoming
kind of a narrative because absolutely deserves to be there.
You know, based on what I saw and ask any
(15:39):
hitter that had to face him, the guy was he
was that good, He was that different. He was the
anomaly size and velocity left hander and did so well
for so many years. So I yeah, to me, he
belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yes, yeah, This was before we started measuring things like
vertical attack angle, and Billy Wagner with that that low
release point, the heigh spin fastball to the high point
of the strike song was virtual unhittable. And then if
he commanded his breaking ball, you had no chance. You
just had to pick one or the other. I think
the knocks on Billy Wagner from when I hear from
other people. He did not get to one thousand innings,
(16:15):
he didn't get over nine hundred, and then the postseason resume.
He only pitched eleven and two thirds innings in the
postseason and had a ten point h three e er
and fourteen appearances. His teams were one and seven in
those postseason series. I don't hold it against the guy, Joe.
When a guy it's such a small sample size. If
you change history the way people like David Ortiz did
(16:37):
and Carlos Beltron in the postseason, you're gonna I'm gonna
give you extra credit. But if you got such a
small sample size, do I look at eleven and two
thirds innings and say you didn't get done in the postseason?
Thereby know you're not a Hall of Famer. I can't
look at.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It that way. I'd like to see the numbers. Was
there like a bad inning involved in this something that
really because with the relief pitcher in the short number
of innings, it could be one bad appearance that really
knocks it out of whack and looks awful. Right, So
like when a really good relief pitcher. I remember Shigi
Hasagawa with the Angel Shii was a really good relief pitcher,
very steady member of a team. But he had a
(17:12):
bad start and he's working this number down all year long.
He's pitching great for us, but he comes in the
game and you look at the number e er and
it's like, wow, it's still like five and five plus
and how could that be? The guy's been nails but
then he has goes out and nails it for a
couple of weeks and has another clunker, and all of
a sudden it gets tough again. It's hard to bring
(17:32):
it back down with relief pitchers that get off the
bat starts, especially with that number. So I'd be again,
I don't know this, but I would look at the
number of the innings that he pitched and was there
was it a consistently runs given up over this time
or was it just like a one real outlier bad
moment that made this number look really bad.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, I mean, if you really want to boil it
down to what pitching is, it's about depressing offense, right sure,
And Billy Wagner was one of the most difficult pitchers
to hit in the history of the game. I mean,
you said this, Joe the hitters, right, If you ask
the hitters about Billy Wagner, they'll tell you that he
was a Hall of Famer. I'm going to give you
where he ranks all time in live ball era that
(18:14):
since nineteen twenty, for every pitcher in baseball whoever threw
at least nine hundred innings strikeout percentage, He's number one.
Strikeouts per night innings. He's number one. Batting average, Number one,
lowest batting average by any pitcher with nine hundred innings
one eighty seven over the course of a career. That's ridiculous.
Nolan Ryan is second at two p four hits per
(18:37):
nine innings number one, ahead of Nolan Ryan six hits
per nine innings, walks and hits per inning pitched. He's
second with a whip under one. Number one right now
is Jacob de Gram who's still active. Obviously OPS plus
which is take consideration OPS plus and measured against the
(18:58):
era you're in, the environment you're in second all time.
Marianna Rivera is number one. He's also second to Rivera
in era. So O was tell me Joe that he
is among the literal very best in the game over
more than one hundred years when it comes to depressing
offense and the fact that he didn't throw a thousand
(19:19):
you know, his last inning last year in the major leagues,
he was lights out. He could have pitched longer. He
went home to coach his son's little league team, whose
son now is playing in the major leagues. It wasn't
like this guy was hanging on. And if he did
hang on, does that make him more of a Hall
of Famer. I don't think so, So we'll see. I
think it's it would be almost cruel if Billy Wagger
(19:39):
doesn't get in.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And he's not a campaigner from what I could understand.
You know, he goes going to go back and he's
going to work with his kids and hang out in
his hometown because that's who he is. So yeah, there's
there's some kind of an unwritten bias involved. Everything you
just mentioned. My god, I mean, how could you argue
against him just based on less than a thousand innings
and based on a postseason era to me, holds in
(20:03):
no no substance whatsoever. Everything else you mentioned does I
mean to be mentioned with Ryan and Mariano and wow,
it just again it makes no sense. And based on
you just told me, I'm certain I would bet knowing
that it's the last time. Maybe guys got a little
bit more deeply into it. But whatever the biases he
gets and needs to be dropped. This guy definitely as
(20:24):
a Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Hey, switching gears real quick, Joe college football season. Here
we are in the playoffs. But there was a very
interesting court decision that was made just a couple of
weeks ago that will affect I think baseball. A federal
judge in Tennessee granted an injunction to the Vanderbilt quarterback
Diego Pavia. It's allowing him another year of NC double
(20:48):
A eligibility based on the finding that the time he
spent at junior college does not count towards his NC
double A eligibility. Think about that. So that means if
you're a ballplayer and say you get drafted, you want
to go to junior college, you can go play two
years in junior college. Then your clock only begins to
(21:11):
start once you transfer to Miami or Arizona State every
and you have four years, actually you have five to
complete four years, and if you get a medical red shirt,
you could get six years. I mean, this could really
be a game changer in college baseball because now you're
may be looking at only the elite players and then
guys who are twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven years old,
(21:31):
Because how is a kid who's seventeen or eighteen supposed
to compete with that kid. Very interesting. If this holds
up and it does apply to baseball, that's a game
changer that your time spent at JC would not count
towards NCAA eligibility.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It just starts off with me thinking that from a
Major league perspective, scouting wise, it's almost like drafting a
kid that was went on a Mormon mission, and you
would get these guys a little bit older. They would
go primarily BYU or inversive of Utah, all the teams
out there, because I've got at them and I saw them,
and you know, there's a maturity component to it. But
(22:07):
for the most part, even and I saw some guys
with some good stuff that later in the rounds because
of their age at that particular juncture, and guys are
organizations to be scared away because they would prefer getting
the younger guy. Now, having said that, the way the
mining system works today, this actually might become more attractive
because if you could delay the time, maybe they'd have
(22:28):
to change the draft rules. I don't know. That might
be part of this too, But to have to wait
longer to get a kid because he went for two
years and all of a sudden, he could even be
a late Bloomer, all of a sudden, the college really
makes him better than you could have projected because you
actually get to see it, don't have to imagine it.
So this might be attractive too. I you know, on
the surface, just philosophically, I don't see anything wrong with that,
(22:50):
But then again I don't. I'd you'd have to wait
and see analytically how this plays out. Regarding the players
that go through the two years, all of a sudden,
now they're going to jump to ASU. Now they're twenty
probably twenty years old, maybe in their freshman year. By
the time they get to the professional ball twenty three
(23:11):
to twenty four, which is considered ancient if you're just
starting it. So all those things have to be reevaluated.
But again, like I said, with the lesser than minor
league system, this might be another version of the minor
leagues that could really be exploited by baseball. And then
the boom comes to the colleges regarding talent and the
(23:33):
ability to compete at a high level. So there's a
lot going on there. First time I'm hearing that that's
my thin slice, and in the beginning there's a lot
going on, or that could be interesting. I don't know.
The only the downside would be the time, the age
that you are then eligible to become a professional player.
But then, like I said before, I mean it's a
way to incubate these guys a little bit longer. From
(23:53):
a professional standpoint, that may be attractive.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I don't know, that's a great point. You convinced me
of that, because you know the college is now. Let's
face it, they have all all the technology and development
and facilities now that essentially the minor leagues have, right,
So I don't think Major League Baseball would mind having
these kids develop longer. As you said, you get a
longer look, longer development, you tend to be more right
(24:18):
on making decisions on players the longer you get to
see them. And quite frankly, they wouldn't mind these guys
starting their service clocks later, right, because you're not going
to be a free agent until you're thirty one thirty
two years old, so you're not going to kill it
on the market at that age. So it's really there's
a lot of dominoes that could fall here, and we're
(24:38):
already seeing older players get into the system. You know,
there's a lot of parents who will keep their kids
out to start grade school, you know, another year to
have them develop. We do have people taking medical red shirts.
This would push the numbers out there even farther in
terms of age developed when they start as a professional.
But as I said, I think it sounds like it
(25:00):
sounds like you agree with me, Joe. The colleges could
become de facto minor leagues for Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right and by pushing it back, like I said, I'd
be curious as to if there'd have to be change
in the way the draft is considered now. When I
was doing it, I think it's still the same. Twenty
one years old was pretty much the thing. Either senior
in high school, anytime a junior college. And then if
you're in a four year school, if you turn twenty
(25:28):
one before your junior year, then you would become eligible.
Otherwise you'd have to be a junior. So those are
the rules in place. I don't know if they're the
same today as they had been, but that'd be interesting
because this guy being a sophomore freshman, sophomore, even as
a freshman, he could be close to twenty one, if
not twenty one after his freshman year. Does that then
(25:49):
make him draft eligible as a twenty one year old,
which then causes colleges to scram believe and more to
replace guy. So there's this. Even though it could benefit
the colleges in terms of having a greater talent poll
to choose from it at an age, it still might
be that they're going to get raided, almost like an
NBA situation that could get raided almost at any time,
(26:11):
like a portal. I mean, you could just just jump
around through this minor league system formerly known as college baseball.
So that'd be all interesting to see. I'm not a
post not at all. I think that'd be kind of interesting,
But there have to be a lot of little tweaks
here and there that would have to govern this.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Hey, speaking of football, Joe, I'm not sure if you
saw the comments from Bill Belichick, who's now coaching at
North Carolina leaving the NFL for the college game, and
I believe it was on the Pat McAfee show where
he's asked about the Patriots making a change in the
head coaching position after just one year, and he basically said,
not surprising the manager they're coach. In this case, NFL
(26:48):
coach doesn't have the power to make decisions. The front
office is going to make decisions, and it sounds like
that's one reason why Bill Belichick is in college, because
he's empowered now to actually make decisions. I'm not sure
if you caught that, but that was a commentary on
the way the NFL is run these days.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Surprised, No, We've We've been talking and exposing this for
a bit. It's true. I mean when he went back
to I mean, listen, that's always been like an interesting
thought to me if you wanted to step back, not
back necessarily, but move along to like a college situation
on college football, you know, even but there's some big
(27:25):
obviously big time college baseball situation. The difference there is
the recruiting component of it. Although I'm sure he's just
going to sit and have recruits brought to him as
opposed to have to go and scour. Who knows. If
I was, I'd get it an RV and just drive around.
But it's interesting to see what he does and how
he does it. The narrative coming from him is important
(27:46):
because if he's saying stuff like that, then people really
do have to pay attention to it and understand that
it is true and it's not. You know, a couple
of folks is talking about it. It absolutely is true,
and that's that's the world of professional sports in general
these days. It's not. The people on the bench or
in the dugout don't necessarily have the same kind of
abilities or voice that they had that abilities, the same
(28:08):
voice that they had in the past, So and that
becomes less interesting. And then that also requires less requirements
to be hired in that position in the first place,
because there's going to be less required of you in
regards to decision making in game decisions, et cetera. Because
you don't have to like manage in Puria, Midland whatever,
be Roving instructed to throw ten thousand million throws a
(28:32):
batting practice in order to develop this ability to see
things so very interesting. I will look into it, because yeah,
absolutely it pretty much corresponds to the narrative in our
show right here and what we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, I mean, my guess is, if you're a football
coach and you want to also win or lose as
it may be, with your players in your system, the
place to do that is college. I just don't think
you are the player personnel director and head coach in
the NFL anymore. There are people above you who are
put in the roster together and sometimes telling you, you know,
(29:06):
which guys need to play or not. So that's my guess.
I'm Bill Belichick going to college. We'll see how it
works out. I think it's a lot to ask with
the We've seen a lot of college basketball and football
coaches getting out of the business because the NIL and
the portal has really really changed. You know, what's going
on in college sports in terms of turnovers. But you
can't question the track record of Bill Belichick. We'll keep
(29:28):
on eye on that. Speaking of keeping our eye on things, Joe,
the new vehicle sales list came out from twenty twenty four.
I'm not sure if you've noticed recently as you're driving
down the road what's going on on the highways these days.
But I wanted to ask you about that. We'll talk
about that coming up. We love to talk about cars
here on the book and Joe, So, Joe, I don't
(30:01):
know how many times I'm driving down the road and
all I see are these small SUVs, like one after
another after another after another. So, as I mentioned, the
new vehicle sales came out for twenty twenty four and
first of all, the highest new vehicle sales since before
the pandemic twenty nineteen, So it was good year for
(30:22):
the car industry. Eight of the top ten vehicles in
terms of sales were pickup trucks or SUVs. The only
two sedans on the list were Tesla and the Toyota Camry.
That's it. Toyota actually is considering converting their entire line
(30:42):
up to hybrids because evs just haven't really taken off
the way people thought they would. But Joe, I got
there's like this sameness that's going on here with these crossovers, SUVs,
whatever you want to call them. Are you seeing the
same thing?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
One hundred percent? Absolutely, And I've actually read about that
where there's no sedans. We've talked about this. Now we like,
there's no.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
No American made other than Tesla, you know, an EV
But yeah, they got out of the damn business.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah. Well, you know, I drive a car and I
still have my health cat. I have some older cars
that I like to drive, but I do. I do
like the big vehicle. I got a Tahoe and there's
a new addition to the family. I just purchased a
two thousand and seven jeep. It's a convert's a bruiser conversion,
and it's got an LS engine in a brother and
(31:28):
some data axles on it. This thing is unbelievable. I
had to do it. I didn't want to do it.
I just had to do it. It's as beefy as it gets,
and so I just added that to my stable. I
just had to do it. That's I hope that doesn't
sound pretentious. But yeah, But let me tell you one thing,
and I don't understand this completely. My Tahoe is a
(31:48):
flex fuel vehicle. And we're talking about the cost of fuel.
My mechanic was wonderful. Mark up at Loser and Tire
here it's warned me that the that fuel the eighty
five fuel less, you get less mileage and possibly not
as good a performance. But but I'm going to tell
you this Tahoe. I've driven it up and down the
coast on how many times I run it on this
(32:08):
flex field and it runs beautifully. And that's why I'm paying.
Like I go down to Florida, I drive it down
not long ago, and I'm paying like two to fifty
a gallon twenty and fifty cents a gallon. And I
know this is stuff made from corn et cetera. But
I'm just wondering. I was wondering why there's not other
than the fact that it's going to interfere with the
gas industry, the petro industry, why it's not done more
often because nobody talks about the flex field, about evs,
(32:32):
talking about you know, just regular gas vehicles. But I'm
here to tell you man, as a family car, that
that Taho runs great on the eighty five fuel and
I'm paying almost anywhere from fifty to seventy five cents
less a gallon going up and down the East Coast.
So that's that's one thing I'm not really sure. And
understand you read different things, but again it's listen, I've
been trained to not believe everything I read, and you
(32:54):
know that there's different forces behind writing different articles trying
to steer you away from one end to the other.
The TV thing, God, it's so unattractive. You can't go anywhere.
I mean what I've concluded that if you want to
buy an EV, fine, that's your city car. If you
want something just to tote around the city, and you
can plug it in at night, beautiful. That's going to
save you.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
That way most people drive, Joe, most people are not
driving five hundred miles.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
You're right, You're right, and that's probably there's benefits with that.
I can't disagree with that. But if you're going to
go somewhere that which probably you can create a boom
with the rental car industry because if I'm going to
drive five six hundred miles each way, I'm going to
have to go to like Hurts or Enterprise and gets
something for a couple of days or a week or
two that I could drive and stop at a gas station.
So maybe you know, we don't talk enough about how
(33:40):
to morph both into our life. But the one thing,
the flex fuel vehicle, I need more information why they're
considered so bad and nobody's making them.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, the EV industry has done a really poor job
getting people to get over this range anxiety. And you
kind of hit it on there that you know, everybody's
worried about getting stuck right and it generally, you know,
it's I'm not saying it's not a factor, but it
does stop a lot of people. And that's why the
hybrid versions where it's you know, a plug in hybrid,
it's got gas engine and EV is really taken off.
(34:10):
But the EV industry really has not taken off. I
mean we're many years into development of these and now.
Actually Tesla this year their sales dropped for the first
time in twelve years now. A lot of that has
to do with what's going on internationally and the Chinese
making a lot of strides forward in their EV development.
But yeah, Tesla actually sold fewer cars this year the
(34:31):
first time in their history. So it has not taken off.
Usually you get to a point where you get past
five to ten percent of market share and then I'll
start taking off like a hockey stick. We have not
had that growth with EV's.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think they have to get into style a little
bit better, do you tell Terryan? Look, I mean the
Volkswagen Beetle is as cool in nineteen thirties as it
is today in regards to the look, or not quite.
But the kind of this group. I mean, I drive
by a test and I say to myself, why, I mean,
I haven't sad a one, so I can't. I know
they're lightning fast, which is always appealing to me, but
(35:06):
just the look I mean to me my carb. Like
I said, this jeep that I just purchased, it's pretty hot.
I mean it's the rescue green, my favorite color of
a jeep, and it's beefy with this big old tires.
And brother, you got to work to get into this thing.
I'm like doing a lot of leg weights and arm
kind of things just to get in and out of
this thing. But the look matters to It's always mattered
(35:27):
to me. Maybe it's part of what people are saying
now or not saying, is the fact that if they do,
like could, if they could develop a little bit more
style with their body, My god, it's it's awful. I
don't like looking at them. I think they they're terrible looking.
I don't even know how well efficient they are, but
I think that would be part of the issue. If
they're developing them. You know, they're they're with the the
their version of the suv what do they call it,
(35:49):
the cyber whatever. It's awful looking. It's not it's not futuristic.
It's just awful. And so they've they've done a bad
job presenting the look because I don't know that it's
important to them. They're more into function than but this
is something for your I still think the American people
like both function and style regarding what they drive. Colors
(36:11):
are important, their colors are very bland. All these things matter,
So I think part of their declient has to be
have something to do with just the way they look
beyond how they perform. And I don't know, I just
I'm not into But again I agree if I do
a lot of city driving, which I don't, but if
I did, that would become attractive.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I mean you're right on design, because let's face it,
most of these companies, the evs, especially Tesla, they're not designers.
They're software companies or software companies that actually they are
making cars. So they really licked that side of it.
They've got the software down and a lot of the
old school car companies have struggled getting the software right.
(36:52):
They started from scratch on software as a software company,
so they got that right. But I'm with you on design.
They should look much cooler. If you're driving an EV,
it should look cool. It should not be boring at all.
State of the art should look cool.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I agree. I mean that really that's what one of
the things that really drives me away. It's just it's
you know, there's a certain mindset that, like we've talked
about this the sameness, it's it's okay to be the same,
and everybody desires to be the same. They want to
look the same, want to drive these really boring things
that that that react the same. Everything's the same.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
The want or need or the desire is to I'm
not just saying just to stand out, but just because
it just fits your personality. But maybe the personalities are
being just so developed into this blase looking great that
nobody's really concerned about this stuff. But I hopefully what's
happening there. Part of the problem is that that with
(37:48):
the way we're trending right now, maybe we're going to
understand that style doesn't matter too. I listen, I'm a
substance guy. I have to believe that. But there's nothing
I do. I do appreciate the style component, whether it's
the way you dress, the whether which you drive your house,
the little new once within your home. I'm looking at
my Chicago Cubs pinball machine as I'm talking to you
(38:08):
right now in my living room. I mean, stuff like
that matters.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
By the way, if I can back up rescue green now,
is that a military green or is that like some
fire trucks or like the color of a tennis ball.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It's a yellow green. Yeah, it's really cool. Man. When
they came out, I can't remember the other they came
out with it, but the moment I saw it, whoa,
I wanted one, but I you know, I didn't need
once I got away, I don't need this one either.
But when you get a two thousand and seven read
done with the Bruiser conversion kit, like I said, with
an LS three engine. I mean I got in there
for the first time in testrov it and it it's
(38:40):
not my health cap, but it's not far behind it.
And it's a jeep. And then the axles that they
put on it. This thing could just you know, climb
up the side of a hill no problem. But it
rides well, could sound the upgraded sound system, everything's been upgraded, transmission,
everything's been upgraded. So I'm just this is a keeper, man.
This is this is what I consider a keeper. This
is not something that you trade in. It's something you
(39:02):
put in the will.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You're taking that car out in the snow of the Poconas.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's still in Florida. But I say, you what next winter,
it's going to get some action up here.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Well, Joe, this is where we come to the point
in our show each time where you take us to
the finish line with some words of wisdom. We've been
all over the map today, which is how we'd love
to do this podcast. So what do you got to
close it out today?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Wow? Just based on this last segment with the vehicles
and me going on and on about you know, colors
and style whatever substance. This comes from Robin CHARMI. I
know you've probably heard this, but I love this. Don't
live the same year seventy five times and call it
(39:46):
a life. Really it works? And then and then I
just simply I had to go to the Rolling Stones
and our boy, you can't always get what you want,
but if you try, sometimes you get what you need. Right,
I mean, it's it's so, it's so absolutely true. So yeah,
(40:07):
don't live the same year over and over again and
call it a life, and just keep keep working at it. Man,
It's not always it's not always an oil painting, and
sometimes thank God for an answered prayers. But if you
keep fighting, eventually you get what you need. And I
can't see that I need that cheap, but I definitely
(40:28):
want attention.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Great words, great tune. Absolutely, I love it. That's a
perfect way to end it. Put a bow on it.
Happy New Year, Joe. We'll see you next time on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
You two brothers, talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, Welcome back. It's the latest episode of the
Book of Joe with Tom Verducci and Joe Madden. Joe,
(00:24):
I got a question for you about first basement. Do
you have an idea as a manager, like what your
prototypical first basement is? And if you want, you could say,
Dick Allen, your guy growing up, going into the Hall
of Fame this summer, But give me your idea the
prototypical first basement.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I like, actually, I like a left tended first baseman
because of the whole I've always felt he can cover
the ground to his right a little bit better than
a right hander Ken Obviously, I also like him from
the perspective of tagging, you know, first base on a
pickoff throw, whether it's from the picture of the catcher.
I like a first basement that throws well. It's just
(01:00):
so underrated the double play from the three to six
to three player, even the times you have to throw
to home plate an occasionally on a relay. So I
like at least an accurate arm. So I'm gonna go
there first. But of course, hitting wise, if it doesn't
have extreme power, it's the ability to really hit for
a high on base percentage, a good number, whether it's
(01:22):
Keith r. Nandez, I had, Wally Joinner, will actually sign
Wally Joiner. That kind of guy is compared to God.
I love Dick, like you've talked about. That's my favorites.
So it depends on what else you have on your team.
But that's it. I mean, I like the lefty over there,
if at all possible, and then with the offensive side
normally not the best base runner. Maybe Warren Crowmarty might
(01:42):
have been of an exception, but for the most part
I liked. I liked the defense, and then of course
either power or just a really extreme ability to get
on base and hit.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, as you were going through some of your your
criteria for first basement, especially on the defensive side, but
in my mind's eye kept seeing Anthony Rizzo making all
those plays over there. And who's been better at covering
the bunt since Kei Hernandez than Anthony Rizzo. I mean,
he's a weapon on defense. The reason I bring it up, Joe,
is the state of first basement in Major League Baseball
(02:14):
right now is, in a word, terrible. I don't know
why this is I don't think there's a reason. I
think these things do go in cycles. But let me
throw some numbers at you. First baseman in the twenty
twenty fourth season hit two forty eight. That is the
lowest ever in a full season, the worst batting average
(02:35):
ever for first baseman power. How about home runs the
lowest in a decade since twenty fourteen. On base percentage
the third lowest in the history of the position. Only
we're going back to the dead ball era here, Joe
nineteen fourteen and nineteen sixteen were lower. RBIs lowest in
(02:56):
a generation going back to nineteen ninety two, and slugging
it's tied for the lowest in a full season since
seventy eight. I mean, when I sat down looked at this,
I knew it wasn't great. I didn't realize just how
bad it is.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Listen, I understand it's hard to get a hit in
today's game, There's no question about that. And a pitcher
is basically because of how we can develop them and technology,
have the upper hand and offense. But my goodness, we're
talking about guys who can't it for average and don't
it for power. It's a problem around the game.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I mean, as you're saying all that, does it also
apply to third basement? I mean, in general, are guys
just gravitating more like the to the center of the field,
whether it's catching second, short, and center field, I don't know.
I mean that's always as a young Scott, I was
told to look up the middle, and that's what I
always did. Gene Thompson taught me that when I started
(03:46):
scouting in nineteen eighty one. Look up the middle. But
as you're like, as you're repeating all of that, I'm
just thinking about third basement in general right now, and
there's very few that I think really reach a huge number.
You're gonna correct me on this, I'm sure, but I don't.
I don't have a strong reason why that is. It's
not a position that unmally want to platoon with, although
(04:08):
maybe there's been more platooning and maybe that's part of
the issue. I don't know, But it's one of those
questions that if I was, if I was in the
dugout and actually seeing us on a daily basis, I
might have a better answer for you. But it just
seems as though corner guys in general maybe aren't as
prolific as they had been.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, it seems to me. And for years, I think
general manager's front offices they've kind of mixed and matched
in left field. You know, left field is kind of
a catch all position, right guys through there, and that's
happening now at first base for some reason, just obviously
a lack of really good options. Just to give you
an example, the Milwaukee Brewers first baseman and they made
the playoffs, won the division. They had two hundred it
(04:49):
was the worst in baseball. Padres first baseman twelve home
runs all year. The Reds had a two sixty nine
on base percentage, and the Yankees were worse in baseball
with two hundred total bases at first base. And that's
why they're taking a flyer. I'm Paul Goldschmith, thirty seven
years old, coming off his worst season, and I bring
this up, Joe, because I wanted to talk about Pete Alonso.
(05:12):
We just established that the first base market is really thin.
There's a lot of teams that need some sock at
first base, and yet Pete Alonso is still out there
as we turned the corner to the new year. He's
a guy in his first six years in the big leagues,
he's averaged thirty eight home runs. I mean, he's a
plug and play, middle of the order guy. Yes, we
know all of his flaws, but in terms of a
(05:34):
guy who's going to hit his home runs, he's pretty
reliable in that regard. I want to get your take
on Pete Alonzo and why the market for him really
has not been that good or at least fast.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, as you're saying all this again my thin slicing,
it's it's something to do with analytics. Obviously, they're probably
seeing a very not a gradual decline with these guys,
but a steep decline. And gold Smith, though, was a
little bit older. I've always been a Goldsmith fan. Gosh,
he's been so good. But then you look at a
Christian Walker, it's not nearly the glamorous position. Then the
names aren't as glamorous as they had been at one time. Possibly,
(06:09):
but with the Alonso, you know, the home runs are there.
I just think there might be considered inconsistency with some
parts of his game. I mean, I know he can
get very streaky, but a lot of guys with power
can defensively He's okay, is it? Are they actually, like
you're talking, we're talking offenses. Are there some of the
lesser than hitters right now considered good defenders. Are they
(06:30):
attempting to going to run prevention at this position because
they just don't see enough offensive people there, like for instance,
I mean just really saving errors on shortstops and third
basemen whatever. Being able to pick balls in the dirt
thanks to that nature, to me have always always important.
I got I loved looking out there and knowing my
(06:50):
first base was going to handle everything that somebody threw
at him. So with the decline in offense, maybe there's
become a more of a premium on defense. I don't
know that either for a fact. It's just you're right.
I have no specific answer. It just seems odd because
this was a position that was full of guys, real guys.
For years. Every team you played against that a guy
(07:11):
over there, and he was to be reckoned with, whether
primarily offensively. And then when you have the defense of
the guy that can combine an offense with defense. You
brought up rizz Riz was great with the Angels, you know,
I had Garren Erstadt who was outstanding. Scott Spiezio with
the Rays was like Carlos Pena always had a good
first basement guy that can hit it with power and
really play his position. So, man, I'd love to know
(07:34):
the answer. Just it sounds like it's analytically driven to me,
but I don't know that for a fat well.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think you're right, Yes, I think there's more buy
in in front offices on the defensive metrics. So if
the numbers show Pete A. Lonso is not a great defender,
and I don't think he is even by the eye test. Listen,
he's pretty good at digging balls out of the dirt
that you were talking about, but every time he has
to make that three to one play, it's a roller coaster.
He just hold your breath, doesn't have a lot of range,
(08:00):
hands aren't great on ground balls. But again paying for
the slug. And I think you're right in terms of analytics, Joe,
because when you look at his skills, Peede Alonzo's skills,
they're what the anlys people call older player skills, right.
I mean, he's not a quick twitch guy. He's not
a great runner, not a great defender. He's coming off
a year we had a career low slug and a
(08:23):
career high in his ground ball rate, so thirty years old,
not trending in the right direction. He's got an average
strikeout rate. You know, he's not guy who's gonna strike
out a ton. But when you look at his career, Joe,
I think the comps to me, and this is what
scares front office is Ryan Howard. Ryan Howard, you know,
(08:43):
after the age of thirty, had a total war wins
above replacement of negative two point four. His best year
was a one point two. He fell off a cliff
at thirty. You've got Chris Davis, You've got Cecil Fielder,
You've got Richie Sexson. I think the analytics people in
baseball look at Pete Alonzo and say, you know, I
(09:05):
don't know about five six years for a guy who's,
you know, a power only guy for the most part,
And I think that's where he's stuck. I mean, he
probably deserves a longer contract, but I don't know that
he's going to get it in this market.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What do you think, Yeah, it's just writing all that
kind of like little notes regarding that first analytically driven
and it's the perceived or anticipated decline rapidly, and I
think that's part of it. So I think there's teams
that would want him. But the worth value is what
does a team believe he's worth compared to what him
and his agent think that he's worth. I think that's
(09:40):
where the discrepancy lies. He might end up doing the
one year deal kind of a thing at a decent number,
trying to prove the point going into next season, although
that's going to get even worse more than likely body
type history, et cetera. So it's analytically driven issue. They
seem us on a rapid decline and not a slight
decline coming. Let this year, this passer into this year
(10:03):
and then and it's worth what do I think I'm
worth versus what you what do you think I'm worth?
And if a team could get him within their parameters
what they like somehow, and that would probably come down
to the last moment that will take a while. That
that's what you may see occur somebody way, himun on
a team like the Angels. I really I've said that
from the beginning. I think the Angels are perfect fit
(10:24):
for him based on his abilities and where he's at
and what they need. They need bang, they need a
little bit of a you know, sizzle you know, for
people to show up and watch them. The first basement
of the kid they got there, Shaneils. How do you
say his name?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Well, yeah, I mean he's a new Dave Maggot in essentially, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I've seen I've seen Dave Maggott and I haven't seen
that yet after from him yet. So, I mean that
was the first round draft pick, which surprised me based
on the type that he is of a hitter. And
again maybe the template has been totally fractured or demolished
by the analytical folks and we're looking for something else.
(11:03):
But again, last point, I think Alonzo will sign eventually,
and a team like Angels to me are like the
perfect team from the sign with and then it comes
down to with him what he thinks versus the team,
and then he's going to have to go out and
prove that he's worth more this year going to next.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, it's not a bad call for the Angels and
they certainly could use a banger like that. I put
Seattle in the same boat. You know, they've shown no
inclination to pay at that kind of level, but that's
the kind of bat that they need. And of course
the New York Mets are still in play, and I
think the Mets are playing this smart Joe. I think
there they'd like to have him back, but I think
they'd like to have him back at a shorter term
(11:42):
than Peter Alonso would prefer. So in this case, time
is on your side. I don't think it's imperative for
the Mets to sign Peede Alonzo. I think they're a
better team with him back in the lineup. But I
think it's going to play out for a few more weeks.
It seems like Joe I just don't think his market
has been fast developing. And I don't think you know,
he wants to jump on anything right now because he
(12:03):
hasn't heard what he.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Likes one hundred percent. That's exactly it has to be.
What's going on right now, Like you said, I mean
the dearth of power at that position, the fact that
he's demonstrated he can had a couple of big hits
this year in the postseason. Also the home run in Milwaukee,
pretty big, pretty late. And I'll tato one thing that
bothered me, if just from the eyeball test, and you
(12:26):
probably could tell me better than I know. I thought
he was having a hard time with fastball late in
the season, I agree, And if that's the case, that's
really going to be the red flag. When a guy
can't catch up with the fastball, that really reduces what
these pitchers have to do. And then they know exactly
the number that he can hit, and if he gets
above that number, just pumping fastballs, pumping fastballs, and then
(12:47):
on his side, he's going to have to start cheating
to get to the fastball and then here it comes
to break the ball that he's way ahead of. So
that's what I saw, And I don't know if that
is anything to do with the lack of interest, but
I think it's a combination of factors and the Mets. Yeah,
the fact that he's been success so there he knows
the ropes there. He can play there. You know. I
think for the most part, the fan base likes him
(13:09):
and then they have to be satisfied with whatever their
numbers projected he may turn out to be this year
is good enough for them to get back to the dance.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, we'll see pine Alonso is out there. I think
he's one of these players that'll be out there for
a while. But we'll keep tabs on that We're going
to take a quick break. When we come back, I
want to talk about the Hall of Fame vote coming
up and very interesting case. Billy Wagner is on his
last year on the ballot. Will he get in? He
came so close last year. No guarantees he will get in.
(13:38):
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
Hall of Fame announcement coming up later on this month.
Joe and I think everybody who's on that ballot has
(14:01):
their fingers crossed. I think each hero can feel pretty
good he's going in. Cecisa Bathfield looks like he's got
a really good shot to go in. Billy Wagner is
the guy for me. You know, normally you get that close,
you know a handful of votes from going in last year,
you just think, okay, he's gonna push it over the
goal line here, a little momentum, a little push in
the last year on the ballot, which typically happens, but
(14:22):
it didn't happen for Jack Morris, and no guarantees here.
First of all, give me your impressions on Billy Wagner
without a you know, breaking down the numbers and where
he sits, he's pitched against you. You've seen him there.
Give me your take on Billy Wagner's Hall of Fame candidacy.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, not a big guy, but gosh, the
ball got to the plate real fast. You didn't see
it very long. I mean, he just jumped out of
his hand. And he was successful for a long period
of time. It just seems to me that there's a
built in bias against him for some reason. I don't know.
I don't know if it's lack of size. I don't know,
if lack of championships. There's there's something working against him
(14:56):
that I am not definitely aware of. I did see
him somewhat. I didn't see him a lot. He was
in the other league as I was working my way
up through the ranks, But but one hundred miles at
one of the first one hundred mile an hour guys,
and did it consistently and from what I could gather,
great teammate always took the ball, that kind of stuff,
and I don't think he was really hurt over the
(15:18):
course of his career very often. So there's a lot
of consistency involved with him too. So it just seems
like a bias. I don't know it's a bias. And
again I don't even know what that might be, something
that's circulating that's preventing him from getting there. That's becoming
kind of a narrative because absolutely deserves to be there.
You know, based on what I saw and ask any
(15:39):
hitter that had to face him, the guy was he
was that good, He was that different. He was the
anomaly size and velocity left hander and did so well
for so many years. So I yeah, to me, he
belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yes, yeah, This was before we started measuring things like
vertical attack angle, and Billy Wagner with that that low
release point, the heigh spin fastball to the high point
of the strike song was virtual unhittable. And then if
he commanded his breaking ball, you had no chance. You
just had to pick one or the other. I think
the knocks on Billy Wagner from when I hear from
other people. He did not get to one thousand innings,
(16:15):
he didn't get over nine hundred, and then the postseason resume.
He only pitched eleven and two thirds innings in the
postseason and had a ten point h three e er
and fourteen appearances. His teams were one and seven in
those postseason series. I don't hold it against the guy, Joe.
When a guy it's such a small sample size. If
you change history the way people like David Ortiz did
(16:37):
and Carlos Beltron in the postseason, you're gonna I'm gonna
give you extra credit. But if you got such a
small sample size, do I look at eleven and two
thirds innings and say you didn't get done in the postseason?
Thereby know you're not a Hall of Famer. I can't
look at.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It that way. I'd like to see the numbers. Was
there like a bad inning involved in this something that
really because with the relief pitcher in the short number
of innings, it could be one bad appearance that really
knocks it out of whack and looks awful. Right, So
like when a really good relief pitcher. I remember Shigi
Hasagawa with the Angel Shii was a really good relief pitcher,
very steady member of a team. But he had a
(17:12):
bad start and he's working this number down all year long.
He's pitching great for us, but he comes in the
game and you look at the number e er and
it's like, wow, it's still like five and five plus
and how could that be? The guy's been nails but
then he has goes out and nails it for a
couple of weeks and has another clunker, and all of
a sudden it gets tough again. It's hard to bring
(17:32):
it back down with relief pitchers that get off the
bat starts, especially with that number. So I'd be again,
I don't know this, but I would look at the
number of the innings that he pitched and was there
was it a consistently runs given up over this time
or was it just like a one real outlier bad
moment that made this number look really bad.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, I mean, if you really want to boil it
down to what pitching is, it's about depressing offense, right sure,
And Billy Wagner was one of the most difficult pitchers
to hit in the history of the game. I mean,
you said this, Joe the hitters, right, If you ask
the hitters about Billy Wagner, they'll tell you that he
was a Hall of Famer. I'm going to give you
where he ranks all time in live ball era that
(18:14):
since nineteen twenty, for every pitcher in baseball whoever threw
at least nine hundred innings strikeout percentage, He's number one.
Strikeouts per night innings. He's number one. Batting average, Number one,
lowest batting average by any pitcher with nine hundred innings
one eighty seven over the course of a career. That's ridiculous.
Nolan Ryan is second at two p four hits per
(18:37):
nine innings number one, ahead of Nolan Ryan six hits
per nine innings, walks and hits per inning pitched. He's
second with a whip under one. Number one right now
is Jacob de Gram who's still active. Obviously OPS plus
which is take consideration OPS plus and measured against the
(18:58):
era you're in, the environment you're in second all time.
Marianna Rivera is number one. He's also second to Rivera
in era. So O was tell me Joe that he
is among the literal very best in the game over
more than one hundred years when it comes to depressing
offense and the fact that he didn't throw a thousand
(19:19):
you know, his last inning last year in the major leagues,
he was lights out. He could have pitched longer. He
went home to coach his son's little league team, whose
son now is playing in the major leagues. It wasn't
like this guy was hanging on. And if he did
hang on, does that make him more of a Hall
of Famer. I don't think so, So we'll see. I
think it's it would be almost cruel if Billy Wagger
(19:39):
doesn't get in.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And he's not a campaigner from what I could understand.
You know, he goes going to go back and he's
going to work with his kids and hang out in
his hometown because that's who he is. So yeah, there's
there's some kind of an unwritten bias involved. Everything you
just mentioned. My god, I mean, how could you argue
against him just based on less than a thousand innings
and based on a postseason era to me, holds in
(20:03):
no no substance whatsoever. Everything else you mentioned does I
mean to be mentioned with Ryan and Mariano and wow,
it just again it makes no sense. And based on
you just told me, I'm certain I would bet knowing
that it's the last time. Maybe guys got a little
bit more deeply into it. But whatever the biases he
gets and needs to be dropped. This guy definitely as
(20:24):
a Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Hey, switching gears real quick, Joe college football season. Here
we are in the playoffs. But there was a very
interesting court decision that was made just a couple of
weeks ago that will affect I think baseball. A federal
judge in Tennessee granted an injunction to the Vanderbilt quarterback
Diego Pavia. It's allowing him another year of NC double
(20:48):
A eligibility based on the finding that the time he
spent at junior college does not count towards his NC
double A eligibility. Think about that. So that means if
you're a ballplayer and say you get drafted, you want
to go to junior college, you can go play two
years in junior college. Then your clock only begins to
(21:11):
start once you transfer to Miami or Arizona State every
and you have four years, actually you have five to
complete four years, and if you get a medical red shirt,
you could get six years. I mean, this could really
be a game changer in college baseball because now you're
may be looking at only the elite players and then
guys who are twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven years old,
(21:31):
Because how is a kid who's seventeen or eighteen supposed
to compete with that kid. Very interesting. If this holds
up and it does apply to baseball, that's a game
changer that your time spent at JC would not count
towards NCAA eligibility.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It just starts off with me thinking that from a
Major league perspective, scouting wise, it's almost like drafting a
kid that was went on a Mormon mission, and you
would get these guys a little bit older. They would
go primarily BYU or inversive of Utah, all the teams
out there, because I've got at them and I saw them,
and you know, there's a maturity component to it. But
(22:07):
for the most part, even and I saw some guys
with some good stuff that later in the rounds because
of their age at that particular juncture, and guys are
organizations to be scared away because they would prefer getting
the younger guy. Now, having said that, the way the
mining system works today, this actually might become more attractive
because if you could delay the time, maybe they'd have
(22:28):
to change the draft rules. I don't know. That might
be part of this too, But to have to wait
longer to get a kid because he went for two
years and all of a sudden, he could even be
a late Bloomer, all of a sudden, the college really
makes him better than you could have projected because you
actually get to see it, don't have to imagine it.
So this might be attractive too. I you know, on
the surface, just philosophically, I don't see anything wrong with that,
(22:50):
But then again I don't. I'd you'd have to wait
and see analytically how this plays out. Regarding the players
that go through the two years, all of a sudden,
now they're going to jump to ASU. Now they're twenty
probably twenty years old, maybe in their freshman year. By
the time they get to the professional ball twenty three
(23:11):
to twenty four, which is considered ancient if you're just
starting it. So all those things have to be reevaluated.
But again, like I said, with the lesser than minor
league system, this might be another version of the minor
leagues that could really be exploited by baseball. And then
the boom comes to the colleges regarding talent and the
(23:33):
ability to compete at a high level. So there's a
lot going on there. First time I'm hearing that that's
my thin slice, and in the beginning there's a lot
going on, or that could be interesting. I don't know.
The only the downside would be the time, the age
that you are then eligible to become a professional player.
But then, like I said before, I mean it's a
way to incubate these guys a little bit longer. From
(23:53):
a professional standpoint, that may be attractive.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I don't know, that's a great point. You convinced me
of that, because you know the college is now. Let's
face it, they have all all the technology and development
and facilities now that essentially the minor leagues have, right,
So I don't think Major League Baseball would mind having
these kids develop longer. As you said, you get a
longer look, longer development, you tend to be more right
(24:18):
on making decisions on players the longer you get to
see them. And quite frankly, they wouldn't mind these guys
starting their service clocks later, right, because you're not going
to be a free agent until you're thirty one thirty
two years old, so you're not going to kill it
on the market at that age. So it's really there's
a lot of dominoes that could fall here, and we're
(24:38):
already seeing older players get into the system. You know,
there's a lot of parents who will keep their kids
out to start grade school, you know, another year to
have them develop. We do have people taking medical red shirts.
This would push the numbers out there even farther in
terms of age developed when they start as a professional.
But as I said, I think it sounds like it
(25:00):
sounds like you agree with me, Joe. The colleges could
become de facto minor leagues for Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right and by pushing it back, like I said, I'd
be curious as to if there'd have to be change
in the way the draft is considered now. When I
was doing it, I think it's still the same. Twenty
one years old was pretty much the thing. Either senior
in high school, anytime a junior college. And then if
you're in a four year school, if you turn twenty
(25:28):
one before your junior year, then you would become eligible.
Otherwise you'd have to be a junior. So those are
the rules in place. I don't know if they're the
same today as they had been, but that'd be interesting
because this guy being a sophomore freshman, sophomore, even as
a freshman, he could be close to twenty one, if
not twenty one after his freshman year. Does that then
(25:49):
make him draft eligible as a twenty one year old,
which then causes colleges to scram believe and more to
replace guy. So there's this. Even though it could benefit
the colleges in terms of having a greater talent poll
to choose from it at an age, it still might
be that they're going to get raided, almost like an
NBA situation that could get raided almost at any time,
(26:11):
like a portal. I mean, you could just just jump
around through this minor league system formerly known as college baseball.
So that'd be all interesting to see. I'm not a
post not at all. I think that'd be kind of interesting,
But there have to be a lot of little tweaks
here and there that would have to govern this.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Hey, speaking of football, Joe, I'm not sure if you
saw the comments from Bill Belichick, who's now coaching at
North Carolina leaving the NFL for the college game, and
I believe it was on the Pat McAfee show where
he's asked about the Patriots making a change in the
head coaching position after just one year, and he basically said,
not surprising the manager they're coach. In this case, NFL
(26:48):
coach doesn't have the power to make decisions. The front
office is going to make decisions, and it sounds like
that's one reason why Bill Belichick is in college, because
he's empowered now to actually make decisions. I'm not sure
if you caught that, but that was a commentary on
the way the NFL is run these days.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Surprised, No, We've We've been talking and exposing this for
a bit. It's true. I mean when he went back
to I mean, listen, that's always been like an interesting
thought to me if you wanted to step back, not
back necessarily, but move along to like a college situation
on college football, you know, even but there's some big
(27:25):
obviously big time college baseball situation. The difference there is
the recruiting component of it. Although I'm sure he's just
going to sit and have recruits brought to him as
opposed to have to go and scour. Who knows. If
I was, I'd get it an RV and just drive around.
But it's interesting to see what he does and how
he does it. The narrative coming from him is important
(27:46):
because if he's saying stuff like that, then people really
do have to pay attention to it and understand that
it is true and it's not. You know, a couple
of folks is talking about it. It absolutely is true,
and that's that's the world of professional sports in general
these days. It's not. The people on the bench or
in the dugout don't necessarily have the same kind of
abilities or voice that they had that abilities, the same
(28:08):
voice that they had in the past, So and that
becomes less interesting. And then that also requires less requirements
to be hired in that position in the first place,
because there's going to be less required of you in
regards to decision making in game decisions, et cetera. Because
you don't have to like manage in Puria, Midland whatever,
be Roving instructed to throw ten thousand million throws a
(28:32):
batting practice in order to develop this ability to see
things so very interesting. I will look into it, because yeah,
absolutely it pretty much corresponds to the narrative in our
show right here and what we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, I mean, my guess is, if you're a football
coach and you want to also win or lose as
it may be, with your players in your system, the
place to do that is college. I just don't think
you are the player personnel director and head coach in
the NFL anymore. There are people above you who are
put in the roster together and sometimes telling you, you know,
(29:06):
which guys need to play or not. So that's my guess.
I'm Bill Belichick going to college. We'll see how it
works out. I think it's a lot to ask with
the We've seen a lot of college basketball and football
coaches getting out of the business because the NIL and
the portal has really really changed. You know, what's going
on in college sports in terms of turnovers. But you
can't question the track record of Bill Belichick. We'll keep
(29:28):
on eye on that. Speaking of keeping our eye on things, Joe,
the new vehicle sales list came out from twenty twenty four.
I'm not sure if you've noticed recently as you're driving
down the road what's going on on the highways these days.
But I wanted to ask you about that. We'll talk
about that coming up. We love to talk about cars
here on the book and Joe, So, Joe, I don't
(30:01):
know how many times I'm driving down the road and
all I see are these small SUVs, like one after
another after another after another. So, as I mentioned, the
new vehicle sales came out for twenty twenty four and
first of all, the highest new vehicle sales since before
the pandemic twenty nineteen, So it was good year for
(30:22):
the car industry. Eight of the top ten vehicles in
terms of sales were pickup trucks or SUVs. The only
two sedans on the list were Tesla and the Toyota Camry.
That's it. Toyota actually is considering converting their entire line
(30:42):
up to hybrids because evs just haven't really taken off
the way people thought they would. But Joe, I got
there's like this sameness that's going on here with these crossovers, SUVs,
whatever you want to call them. Are you seeing the
same thing?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
One hundred percent? Absolutely, And I've actually read about that
where there's no sedans. We've talked about this. Now we like,
there's no.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
No American made other than Tesla, you know, an EV
But yeah, they got out of the damn business.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah. Well, you know, I drive a car and I
still have my health cat. I have some older cars
that I like to drive, but I do. I do
like the big vehicle. I got a Tahoe and there's
a new addition to the family. I just purchased a
two thousand and seven jeep. It's a convert's a bruiser conversion,
and it's got an LS engine in a brother and
(31:28):
some data axles on it. This thing is unbelievable. I
had to do it. I didn't want to do it.
I just had to do it. It's as beefy as it gets,
and so I just added that to my stable. I
just had to do it. That's I hope that doesn't
sound pretentious. But yeah, But let me tell you one thing,
and I don't understand this completely. My Tahoe is a
(31:48):
flex fuel vehicle. And we're talking about the cost of fuel.
My mechanic was wonderful. Mark up at Loser and Tire
here it's warned me that the that fuel the eighty
five fuel less, you get less mileage and possibly not
as good a performance. But but I'm going to tell
you this Tahoe. I've driven it up and down the
coast on how many times I run it on this
(32:08):
flex field and it runs beautifully. And that's why I'm paying.
Like I go down to Florida, I drive it down
not long ago, and I'm paying like two to fifty
a gallon twenty and fifty cents a gallon. And I
know this is stuff made from corn et cetera. But
I'm just wondering. I was wondering why there's not other
than the fact that it's going to interfere with the
gas industry, the petro industry, why it's not done more
often because nobody talks about the flex field, about evs,
(32:32):
talking about you know, just regular gas vehicles. But I'm
here to tell you man, as a family car, that
that Taho runs great on the eighty five fuel and
I'm paying almost anywhere from fifty to seventy five cents
less a gallon going up and down the East Coast.
So that's that's one thing I'm not really sure. And
understand you read different things, but again it's listen, I've
been trained to not believe everything I read, and you
(32:54):
know that there's different forces behind writing different articles trying
to steer you away from one end to the other.
The TV thing, God, it's so unattractive. You can't go anywhere.
I mean what I've concluded that if you want to
buy an EV, fine, that's your city car. If you
want something just to tote around the city, and you
can plug it in at night, beautiful. That's going to
save you.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
That way most people drive, Joe, most people are not
driving five hundred miles.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
You're right, You're right, and that's probably there's benefits with that.
I can't disagree with that. But if you're going to
go somewhere that which probably you can create a boom
with the rental car industry because if I'm going to
drive five six hundred miles each way, I'm going to
have to go to like Hurts or Enterprise and gets
something for a couple of days or a week or
two that I could drive and stop at a gas station.
So maybe you know, we don't talk enough about how
(33:40):
to morph both into our life. But the one thing,
the flex fuel vehicle, I need more information why they're
considered so bad and nobody's making them.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, the EV industry has done a really poor job
getting people to get over this range anxiety. And you
kind of hit it on there that you know, everybody's
worried about getting stuck right and it generally, you know,
it's I'm not saying it's not a factor, but it
does stop a lot of people. And that's why the
hybrid versions where it's you know, a plug in hybrid,
it's got gas engine and EV is really taken off.
(34:10):
But the EV industry really has not taken off. I
mean we're many years into development of these and now.
Actually Tesla this year their sales dropped for the first
time in twelve years now. A lot of that has
to do with what's going on internationally and the Chinese
making a lot of strides forward in their EV development.
But yeah, Tesla actually sold fewer cars this year the
(34:31):
first time in their history. So it has not taken off.
Usually you get to a point where you get past
five to ten percent of market share and then I'll
start taking off like a hockey stick. We have not
had that growth with EV's.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think they have to get into style a little
bit better, do you tell Terryan? Look, I mean the
Volkswagen Beetle is as cool in nineteen thirties as it
is today in regards to the look, or not quite.
But the kind of this group. I mean, I drive
by a test and I say to myself, why, I mean,
I haven't sad a one, so I can't. I know
they're lightning fast, which is always appealing to me, but
(35:06):
just the look I mean to me my carb. Like
I said, this jeep that I just purchased, it's pretty hot.
I mean it's the rescue green, my favorite color of
a jeep, and it's beefy with this big old tires.
And brother, you got to work to get into this thing.
I'm like doing a lot of leg weights and arm
kind of things just to get in and out of
this thing. But the look matters to It's always mattered
(35:27):
to me. Maybe it's part of what people are saying
now or not saying, is the fact that if they do,
like could, if they could develop a little bit more
style with their body, My god, it's it's awful. I
don't like looking at them. I think they they're terrible looking.
I don't even know how well efficient they are, but
I think that would be part of the issue. If
they're developing them. You know, they're they're with the the
their version of the suv what do they call it,
(35:49):
the cyber whatever. It's awful looking. It's not it's not futuristic.
It's just awful. And so they've they've done a bad
job presenting the look because I don't know that it's
important to them. They're more into function than but this
is something for your I still think the American people
like both function and style regarding what they drive. Colors
(36:11):
are important, their colors are very bland. All these things matter,
So I think part of their declient has to be
have something to do with just the way they look
beyond how they perform. And I don't know, I just
I'm not into But again I agree if I do
a lot of city driving, which I don't, but if
I did, that would become attractive.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I mean you're right on design, because let's face it,
most of these companies, the evs, especially Tesla, they're not designers.
They're software companies or software companies that actually they are
making cars. So they really licked that side of it.
They've got the software down and a lot of the
old school car companies have struggled getting the software right.
(36:52):
They started from scratch on software as a software company,
so they got that right. But I'm with you on design.
They should look much cooler. If you're driving an EV,
it should look cool. It should not be boring at all.
State of the art should look cool.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I agree. I mean that really that's what one of
the things that really drives me away. It's just it's
you know, there's a certain mindset that, like we've talked
about this the sameness, it's it's okay to be the same,
and everybody desires to be the same. They want to
look the same, want to drive these really boring things
that that that react the same. Everything's the same.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
The want or need or the desire is to I'm
not just saying just to stand out, but just because
it just fits your personality. But maybe the personalities are
being just so developed into this blase looking great that
nobody's really concerned about this stuff. But I hopefully what's
happening there. Part of the problem is that that with
(37:48):
the way we're trending right now, maybe we're going to
understand that style doesn't matter too. I listen, I'm a
substance guy. I have to believe that. But there's nothing
I do. I do appreciate the style component, whether it's
the way you dress, the whether which you drive your house,
the little new once within your home. I'm looking at
my Chicago Cubs pinball machine as I'm talking to you
(38:08):
right now in my living room. I mean, stuff like
that matters.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
By the way, if I can back up rescue green now,
is that a military green or is that like some
fire trucks or like the color of a tennis ball.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It's a yellow green. Yeah, it's really cool. Man. When
they came out, I can't remember the other they came
out with it, but the moment I saw it, whoa,
I wanted one, but I you know, I didn't need
once I got away, I don't need this one either.
But when you get a two thousand and seven read
done with the Bruiser conversion kit, like I said, with
an LS three engine. I mean I got in there
for the first time in testrov it and it it's
(38:40):
not my health cap, but it's not far behind it.
And it's a jeep. And then the axles that they
put on it. This thing could just you know, climb
up the side of a hill no problem. But it
rides well, could sound the upgraded sound system, everything's been upgraded, transmission,
everything's been upgraded. So I'm just this is a keeper, man.
This is this is what I consider a keeper. This
is not something that you trade in. It's something you
(39:02):
put in the will.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You're taking that car out in the snow of the Poconas.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's still in Florida. But I say, you what next winter,
it's going to get some action up here.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Well, Joe, this is where we come to the point
in our show each time where you take us to
the finish line with some words of wisdom. We've been
all over the map today, which is how we'd love
to do this podcast. So what do you got to
close it out today?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Wow? Just based on this last segment with the vehicles
and me going on and on about you know, colors
and style whatever substance. This comes from Robin CHARMI. I
know you've probably heard this, but I love this. Don't
live the same year seventy five times and call it
(39:46):
a life. Really it works? And then and then I
just simply I had to go to the Rolling Stones
and our boy, you can't always get what you want,
but if you try, sometimes you get what you need. Right,
I mean, it's it's so, it's so absolutely true. So yeah,
(40:07):
don't live the same year over and over again and
call it a life, and just keep keep working at it. Man,
It's not always it's not always an oil painting, and
sometimes thank God for an answered prayers. But if you
keep fighting, eventually you get what you need. And I
can't see that I need that cheap, but I definitely
(40:28):
want attention.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Great words, great tune. Absolutely, I love it. That's a
perfect way to end it. Put a bow on it.
Happy New Year, Joe. We'll see you next time on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
You two brothers, talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
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