March 12, 2025 • 53 mins
Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the danger of pitching injuries in Spring Training. The first big news coming with Yankees pitcher Gerrit Cole needing TJ surgery. What other pitching stories have we seen this Spring? Tom shares an idea fom Max Scherzer to try and have pitchers go more often and pitch longer. Why is Barry Bonds talking about Shohei Ohtani? Tom honors a couple baseball legends and looks at the impact they're still having on the game. Plus, we react to Dave Roberts signing his record-setting extension with the Dodgers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey, Aaron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast
with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden and Joe.
Happy daylight savings time. It's that time of year, thankfully,
a little more daylight at the end of the day.
What's interesting was, you know in spring training, guys used
to I don't know if this happened to you, Your
guys would show up late because they forgot to move
(00:33):
their clocks. Now the clocks are all pretty much automated.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Right, Yeah, I listen.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am such an advocate and keep reading about possibly
keeping us on that or not or even the other
the standard time. I love the daylight savings time. I
guess what I keep reading in there's probably some substance
to it is about kids walking to school in the
morning as.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Being one of the big detriments to doing something like that.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
But they're doing it for years right now, for a
couple of months at least, so anyway, I really did
on it. I think it's great. I love the extended days.
Just sitting around back in Pennsylvania. Want to get up
there for this summer. It's like to like nine o'clock
sometimes later than that, it seems, and it's just a
it's an uplifting, up upbeat kind of situations. I'm all
(01:19):
about daylight savings time. You have more time on the
golf course too, right.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, I didn't mention that. Hey, I listen. Unfortunately, we
have talked a little bit more about pitcher injuries, and
you know, we've talked a lot about that. We've talked
at the start of spring training about how this is
the most dangerous time of year for pitchers. The incidents
of pitcher injuries is highest in spring training. Last four years.
It actually has gone down after opening Day, but the
(01:45):
rates keep going up in spring training. And this time
it got Garrett Cole. This is a rough one, Joe,
Garrett Cole, Tommy John surgery obviously will miss this twenty
twenty five season, maybe carry into the twenty six season.
Thirty four years old, not getting any younger. Had been
one of the most dural boll pitchers in the game.
(02:06):
Right since twenty fifteen, he threw more two hundred innings
than any other pitcher in baseball, six two hundred inning seasons.
No one else even has five. And he goes down.
Give me your take on what this means for the
new York Yankees Joe, because that was I don't want
to say a given because Garrett did miss the first
couple of months last year with elbow inflammation, but man,
(02:27):
that's a backbone to that pitching staff will not be
there for New York.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, this could be really a tough one overcome. Last
year when he went down, the popular opinion was that
he was going to come back. Now this year, you know,
he's not coming back. So during the latter part of
the season, they're still going to have to replace Garrett
colling up, maybe just for a couple months like it
was last year. And then they also lost heel already
he's already down. I know it's not as severe or
(02:52):
as lengthy possibly, but nevertheless they're missing him too. So
now you're going to get into Stroman, who they didn't
even they try to trade in the off season now
of a sudden becomes pertinent. So the kid Warren pitched
OK last night, little bit of command issues, it's a
big deal. I don't think it's little deal because you
not only lost Coley, you lost Soto. You know, that's
two really big parts of last season that are gone
(03:14):
for this year. And to think that somebody's just gonna
step up and walk in there. It's just very hard
to imagine that that's going to happen. So it's one
of those situations where as a group, this is a
group kind of thing. And I think Aaron Judge being
the captain of the team is very useful right now,
very pertinent right now, maybe even more so than at
(03:34):
other times when things are going well. The kind of
example he sets, the kind of conversation, the narrative that
he does set is gonna matter, I mean, and Boonie's
gonna do it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I mean, I love.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Brian Cashman's candor and the press. I saw him at
the AVA the other night at our restaurant. We had
a nice conversation. He's just full of candor.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Man.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
The guy just he just tells you what's on his mind.
And that's that's what I really think about Brian Cashman.
So I like that part about it. I think he's
gonna he will, He'll sift through all the bs and
just try to do what he thinks is right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But it's a tough one. Man.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You're gonna have to somebody come up out of nowhere.
I got acquisitionally, don't I don't even know what that
would be. People talking about Dylan Ceas and others. Why
why would the Padres give it up right now? I
don't understand that there have to be something under the
hood that we're not aware of.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So, yeah, the Yankees are kind of in trouble right now.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I don't see the light at the end of the
tunnel not being attached to the oncoming train.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's gonna be hard, so we'll see.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
But I think Judge right now really earns his no
pun intended stripes because being the captain now is really important.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's a great point, and he has set a really
good culture there. Quick story before we move on with
pitching here about Judge. When the Yankees drafted Anthony Valpy junior,
Aaron Judge called up Volpi and welcomed him to the
team and quote unquote the family right. Vulpi then turns
around does the same thing when the team drafted George
(04:56):
Lombard Junior. I think that's just so cool paying it
forward like that. In fact, recently the Yankees played spring
training game on the other side of the state. They
go over to the East Coast and play the Cardinals,
and a couple of other teams, and Volti went up
to George Lombard Junior, another first round pick. I mentioned
he talked to him when the Yankees drafted him and said,
you're coming with me, and instead of taking to team bus,
(05:18):
Anthony Voltpi drove him over to the other side drove
him back. So that's the kind of example that Aaron
Judge sets. So I agree there's no panic in this team,
but I do think they're going to have to scour
the universe and maybe that guy get in the line
is Sandy Alcantra of the Marlins, because listen to the Orioles,
they've had pitching injuries already with Grayson Rodriguez going down.
(05:40):
The Mets have had injuries with Sean Menaya and Frankie Montas.
Those are teams that are trying to play the seventh
month of the season that just don't fill gaps. They
need someone at the front of the rotation. So we'll
see where that goes. Yeah, Nicle is interesting, Joe, because
I never saw anything mechanically that was a red flag
for me. With Garrett. I know some people have mentioned
(06:03):
the cutter. He went to that pitch three years ago,
outed the cutter last year, he actually doubled his cutter use.
Maybe that was because the fastball was down a tick
and he threw a few more cutters. Still not a ton,
about fifteen sixteen percent. But I'll tell you a quick
story about Garrett and the way he developed as a pitcher.
When he finally won his first cy young, because he
(06:24):
was in the race for a few of them, his
dad came up to me and he said, Garrett wouldn't
be here without you. And I'm thinking, what in the
world is he talking about, And he said, growing up,
Garrett read a lot of things that I had written
about not packing on too many innings for young pitchers,
basically as the body still develops. I'm talking about guys
(06:47):
even early twenties. Right to me, it's like if you
want to run a marathon, which is a two hundred
inning season for a pitcher, you don't go out there
and run a marathon. How do you get there. You
train to run the marathon. You add miles to get there,
You staircase your workload. So for years practice and the
guys who really ramped up the innings with a big
(07:07):
jump from year to year were the ones more prone
to injuries and Garrett's dad said Garrett followed this advice,
especially in the amateur level when guys wanted to keep
pitching him because he had a great arm. They monitored
Garrett's work and they staircased it. So I didn't see
anything in Garrett's past. Joe to me, whether it's mechanics, workload,
you name it that made him susceptible, But it just
(07:31):
happens now, right, And at least for Garrett, he's pitched
a long time, He's packed on a lot of innings.
This is not something that came along early in his career.
Sometimes the body just gives out, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
There's sometimes it's unexplainable, and I agree with you. The
staircase method, I think is a really good way to
go about almost anything that we're trying to do. Just
build into things and don't go from zero to sixty
all the time. Let's go, you know, twenty thirty, forty,
so eventually get to that number of miles per hour.
It's interesting you mentioned the upgrade, uptick and cutter usage.
(08:03):
I'm not a huge fan of this pitch unless it's
absolutely necessary for the pitcher. The guys that were really
because it's really just a bad fastball. I mean, of
course it could be very effective. Mariano Rivera made it
made that obviously painfully important to left handed hitters. But
I would also believe in this I do. I mean,
if there was an up tickets more than likely an
(08:24):
analytical gesture where they pointed out that if he threw
this one off and they think he would get certain
or better results against the backdoor cutter, probably to the
lefties also on their hands. To me, against the right
handed hitter, it's got to be really located well because
again it's normally thrown a little bit less than the fastball,
and it runs to the barrel of the bat. So
these are the kind of things that I've always looked
(08:45):
at with cutters. You know, Shieldsy was into a James
got into it, David Price got into it, and part
of his career, and sometimes I thought it was kind
of like I would cringe a little bit because I
always felt they were not throwing something they were really
good at at the expense of.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Throwing the cutter.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So everything you just said there, having he having done everything,
having done everything properly, of course the body's going to
break down. Of course, it's unexplainable sometimes absolutely, But the
first thing I would look at would be if there
was anything different, we're doing anything differently.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Over the last year or so.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
That would be where I would approach that. Not like
you're gonna do anything about it. It's just one of
those things. Like I said, for me, I'm always I
was always hyper aware of something when something new is
at it, and then how often that person would that
picture would go to that in expense of something else.
That's that was always it for me. From the dugout,
I would get Hicke easier all the time, Jimmy and
(09:39):
know it's God, I didn't we just back off on
that because like I've always said, Shields had a great curveball,
didn't use it as much because of that. David Price is,
you know, really didn't have that great breaking ball, so
he did need something other than that. A true Slidery
ad that, but not with the kind of confidence, So
the cutter became his kind of go to things. So
I always I'm always, like I said, hyper aware when
(10:02):
a picture adds sometimes and what that may do regarding
the usage and what it could result in.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I like that theory. Joe to me It's not
necessarily the pitch itself, it's how many times do you
throw it and how do you throw it. I've seen
pitchers lose velocity off there for Seemer by throwing too
many cutters. I've seen that happen, and a lot of
times I've seen guys try to manipulate the baseball with
the cutter rather than really it's all stems from the grip.
You shouldn't throw it differently than your fastball, right, you're
(10:32):
just getting a little off center, changing the spin axis.
But you see some guys try to manipulate it and
work that ball more, and I think that's where you
could get in some trouble. Interesting to see now, Paul
skeins he's got the best stuff on the planet throwing
a cutter this spring, We'll see how often he throws
that pitch. Listen, I've seen him throw it. It's a
(10:52):
great pitch. Does he need it? He feels like he does.
He's the kind of guy who wants as many weapons
as he can. And again, we'll keep an eye on
how often he throws that pitch. If this brings me
to something, Joe, we talk a lot about this, the
kind of the devaluation of starting pitchers. Right, guys get
pulled out of the game when they're cruising through five
innings because it's third time around, they've only got seventy
(11:14):
five pitches. I was talking to Max Schurzer the other
day and he's got a pretty interesting idea that it's
at least the conversation starter. He calls it the qualified starter,
where to be qualified, you would have to throw one
of hit one of three thresholds. You know, six innings,
you throw one hundred pitches, or you give up four runs. Now,
(11:36):
if the team takes you out before you reach any
one of those three thresholds, you're unqualified, and there's a
penalty the team has to pay. It could be, and
he wasn't definitive on this, maybe you lose your DH.
Maybe the other team gets a free substitution, a pinch
hitter or a pinch runner. Or if you get the
extra innings, one team gets the runner on second base.
(11:58):
The other team with the unqualified starter does not. You know, listen,
you can argue about penalties. Get it. But he's he's
driving at something, Joe, I think there's something there. As
he said, nobody wants to see a guy throw five
innings cruising with seventy five pitches, and he's taken out
of the game expressly because it's the lineup turning a
(12:19):
third time around. So hitting these thresholds, how do we
get starting pitchers to pitch more often and not try
to get a swing and miss on every pitch. If
you take the ball and your job now is to
go at least six innings or one hundred pitches, you
can't afford to just chase swing and miss on every
one of your pitches. You can't max out, and maybe
(12:39):
that keeps pitchers healthier. You can argue with some of
the details of this, Joe, but I think he's driving
at something the game really has to consider.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I agree with that, But there has to be a
paradigm shift mentally among the people that are running the game.
I mean, after all, you know, why can't this I
still I always I always go back to my minor leagues,
in my minor league experience. I know there's less teams,
I know there's less up or tunity, but why isn't
this being done in the minor leagues?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Now?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
You talked about the step being stone process or the
step process of building somebody up sure rookie ball a
ball double A and build it in through there and
and really teach guys how to get through that third
time through this. Listen, if you could build an analytical
base at it base based on not having somebody pitch
the third time through, there's got to be a method
(13:29):
out there that you could teach somebody how to pitch
the third time through. What is that going to take?
Can't you break down those that have been successful at
this and how they did it, and furthermore, just giving
guys the opportunity to do it and sink or swim
in that in that particular moment. How do I get
these guys out? Does it mean withholding certain pitches earlier
in the game, saving something for later in the game.
(13:50):
Does it mean less than maximum effort on every pitch,
more pitchability, more first pitch outs, pitch the contact when
it's earlier in a game, earlier in account, you know
they always trying to miss a bat, maximum effort kind
of stuff. That's part of I think the reason why
this is devaulved to the point it has so I
(14:12):
get what he's saying. It makes sense not gonna argue
that at all. But I would really appreciate a more
concentrated effort in the minor leagues to get guys up
to speed with learning how to do this kind of stuff,
because I'm telling you, man, I know as I lived
it in the minor leagues. When I ran the minor leagues,
on the field, if I came into town and almost invariably,
(14:35):
you know, guys would throw complete games. Whether it was
David Holdridge one time, I thought he'd turn him around.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
In the minor leagues.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
At that particular time, Colin was callings s can't remember
specifically with Colin Hilly Hathaway. These guys all of a
sudden through nine innings, and I swear to the next
four or five starts they were like King Kaong. They
went out there because they had a different attitude about
themselves to be able to walk off the mound in
the ninth inning you win. Catcher comes and greets you, Matters,
(15:03):
all that stuff, matt in the development of a pitcher
as an athlete and as being successful in getting through
difficult moments.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
We just don't permit it. It's not permitted, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I mean, we have to give a zoning permit to
allow guys to go after the third time through or
get into the six plus inning and then again, I mean,
it's always going to save your bullpit. It's easier from
a manager's perspective to try to get six or eight
outs as opposed to like all this, shoot nine, twelve,
fifteen outs sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
How do you do that on a.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Nightly basis and expect to get to the World Series
and win it unless you just have this super glut
of relief pitchers lying around.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So start in the minor leagues. Teach guys how to this.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, well you're right about that. You're right about that, Joe.
It can be taught. But Max's point, and I agree
with this, is that's not going to happen organically with
the game we have now, with pitchers chasing velocity in
front offices, rewardings swing and miss right, no one is
going to decide to go back the other way. So
Max's point night with this is the only way you
(16:05):
can do it is to legislate it. As he said,
you're going to have to convince the analyst upstairs that
the incentives are worth having a picture stay in the game.
You have to change something about the rules of the
game to make the analyst change the way and they
decide this the way the game is played. I don't
(16:25):
think it's going to happen organically.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I'm not arguing that at all.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I'm just saying I think a better way for me
would be that to somehow somebody's got to step up
at one of these points. Somebody's got to get tired
of all these injuries, these Tommy Johns having to like
really scramble to get five guys that you like during
the course of a season without any really anybody coming
up from the ranks below, because nobody's developed enough, nobody
(16:52):
knows how to do this. At some point, somebody's got
to realize that, and you have to that. You got
to again the definition of insanity. At some point, you
got to realize, maybe this doesn't work, maybe this isn't
as good as we thought it was. And like I've
said before, it's not necessarily that the game hasn't changed.
People who are running the game have changed the game.
That's what nobody talks about. It's still there. I still
(17:14):
believe in kids. I still believe you get a young
guy's pitcher, good body, good armstroke, knows how to pitch.
I still believe and I always believe that you can
get him and teach a lot of them, not just
a few, how to get through that third time through
the bat a good and more successfully. It's just not
it's just because it's mathematically been proven to this point
that you can't do it, or insinuated that you can't
(17:36):
do it. So thus it becomes part.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Of the game. And I don't agree with it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Here's how I gonna throw some numbers at you. Here,
here's how much the game has changed just in the
last ten years. Because I know people are going to say, well,
you know, no one's going to throw three hundred innings,
and you know Nolan Ryan all his no. We're talking
about just recently, basically Garrett Cole's career. The span of
ten years, the last decade, the number of starts of
six innings has gone down thirty six percent. The number
(18:04):
of starts in which a starter was allowed to throw
one hundred pitches, and just the last ten years has
gone down seventy percent. I mean that is a sea
change in the game. In the postseason, the last one
hundred and sixty eight starts in the postseason, it's the
last two years, one hundred and sixty eight starts. In
(18:25):
one hundred and sixty one out of one hundred and
sixty eight starts, the starter has been pulled before he
got to one hundred pitches. I mean, that's just staggering.
The average number of pitches thrown by a starter in
the last ten years has gone from ninety six to
eighty five. Eighty five is now the average number of
pitches thrown by a major league starter. So, yes, I
(18:46):
think Max Schurzer is driving at something. How we get
there we can certainly debate that, but we need to
have the conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Eighty five that's the number that you try to get
up to, at least before your first start of the
season when you break camp, you know, and now of
a sudden that becomes the norm where the gold standard
I listen, it makes no sense.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
It is.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
It's actually internally legislated by each organization. And again, the
part of this is that everybody believes the same thing.
Everybody passes the same information along to everybody else, and
nobody's willing to be the outlier to say, no, you
know what, this really isn't working. After all, how many
of these teams have really been successful in the postseason
are just like during the regular season. There they're standard records.
(19:30):
A number of victories for me, nineties them should be
the minimum that I want to win on an annual basis.
You go into camp, the number is the bar should
at least be ninety games. And that's not always going
back then, it didn't even ten fifteen years ago. That
wasn't assured. To get you into the to the playoffs.
You have to you have to you have to expand
your goals. Somebody's got to take this chance. Somebody's got
(19:51):
to say, you know what, this just isn't working to
the level. And I don't want to be like everybody else.
Why does everybody all of a sudden want to be
like everybody else? So that's that's the part that that
really it does bother me, and of course probably showing
my own sensibilities here and what I believe is the truth.
So that's fine, But I just I'm waiting for that
(20:12):
one group to have the kind of like the baseball
courge to say, you know what, we're gonna do this
a little bit differently when it start this minor league season.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
We're going to grow from there, and I'd really be
curious to see what happens after that.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Hey, Another one of our favorite subjects here in the
Book of Joe is show Hey Otani, and recently Arry
Bonds went after show Hey Otani, Joe, We've got to
talk about that, and we will right after this quick
break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the
(20:51):
Book of Joe. I mentioned Barry Bonds. He was on
a podcast called All the Smoke, and he gave his
props to show, Hey, is this amazing player that show
Hey is? But he also said the game has changed.
The game is way different than it was when I played.
We're getting some off my lawn here stuff here, Joe.
(21:12):
He said the same way Michael as in Jordan talks
about it, or anybody does. Otani is not going to
hit two home runs without seeing one go by his ear.
In my generation, I don't care what he does. He's
not going to steal two bases without someone decapitating his
kneecap to slow him down. It's a different game back then.
(21:32):
I mean, I gotta take exception with this. First of all,
Barry Bonds played twenty two years. He was hit by
a pitch one hundred and six times, a little less
than five hit by pitches per year. He also, once
he bulked up, went to this gigantic arm guard, which
was so big Baseball had to put in legislation to
(21:52):
limit the size of those things. In nineteen ninety three,
he had forty six home runs, led the National League
in home runs. He was hit by a pitch twice. Listen,
this guy should not be talking about the you know,
the advantage quote unquote that Shohy has with not getting
hit by pitches. We haven't even talked about steroids yet
as well. Talk about advantages. The sixth highest hit by
(22:15):
pitch rates in baseball history are twenty eighteen, nineteen, twenty two,
twenty three, twenty four, the last six years full seasons
the highest rate of hit by pitches. He doesn't know
what he's talking about when it comes to how the
game quote unquote has changed, Joe. So, I don't think
you can take anything away from show hey, the fact
that people aren't dusting him. Listen, it's basically just get
(22:38):
off my lawn stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, listen, I'm hearing all of that, and I know
I actually watched Bonds play at Arizona State he did.
He was so armored up when he came up to
the plate. Even if it hit him, he wouldn't have
felt it for a variety of different reasons. Part of
what's going on more recently, obviously, guys are throwing harder.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Guys are throwing harder with like these maximum.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Effort deliveries elevated in has become in vogue, and are
just trying to throw as hard as they can spin
at the top of the zone, which we've had the
more recently, they're going to make the argument about the
pine tar not being available and thus we have less command.
I'm not buying that completely, but I just think it's
just the methods being taught. But when Bonds pitched, it
was more command kind of pitchers guys that really was.
(23:24):
It was about fastball command.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
First. You wanted to be able to throw.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Your fastball for a strike when you wanted to not
just being able to throw it for a strike. There's
times you don't want to throw it for a strike.
In my meager existence, I used to catch Tommy John
and Jeff's on and spring trainings, and I swear to
these guys never threw the ball over the white part
of the plate. That was not part of their game.
They were off the end, They lived off the edges
all the time, and they could. So I think part
of the getting hit more often is it necessarily head
(23:50):
hunting or trying to hit people. It's just the inability
to really command pitches that are thrown that hard move
that much. And I don't, like I said, the legitimacy
of the excuse of not having a substance on the ball.
I'm not one hundred percent that, So yeah, I mean
we always talk about, you know, the previous generations being
way tougher than the present generation.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's my dad thought that about us.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
So my dad's dad thought that about his group too,
just the way it is we we we perceived the
group in play right now as being less masculine as
we were in regards everything that they're doing.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So I don't buy that either.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So yeah, I could see where the numbers have gone
up guys being hit. I think part of it is
the methods being taught. I think the fact that guys
aren't necessarily great pictures anymore. They have great arms, and
they'll throw the ball hard and all this other kind
of stuff, and it's going to get away. It's going
to get away more often, just based on the maximum
effort delivery and the general philosophy in the game.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Hey, another thing we like to do here Joe is
acknowledge some great baseball lives, and I want to talk
about two former Big leaguers that we lost recently, including
the oldest living player at the time. At his death,
he was one hundred years old, Art Shallock. He was
left handed pitcher. He actually played on a few Yankees
World Championship teams. Art he was something of a character.
(25:10):
He had this basically, this was on his obituary on
his legacy page, a quote from Art. Those players who
cheated by using steroids, I hope they never get into
the Hall of Fame. If Ted Williams or Mickey Mannal
had use those drugs, they would have hit one thousand
home runs each. So the steroid users should have had
their records thrown away forever. Tell it like it is,
(25:33):
Art Listen. He was quite a character, and he's from
that greatest generation. Joe. He earned eleven Battle Stars in
the Navy. He was at Iwo Jima. He was at Okinawa.
Originally signed by the Dodgers, he's picked up by the Yankees.
He wound up rooming with Yogi Berra, and Yogi used
to send him downstairs to the lobby to pick up
what he called his funnies, the comic books. Yoga would
(25:55):
read his comic books. What a character. In fact, there
was a quote after he passed away at one hundred
where the nurse said, he left us burning just as
bright as ever, one last beer, a smoke, and a milkshake.
You talk about life well lived, how about that.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I'd be in a bathroom all night with that kind
of combination. Means this guy was born in nineteen twenty five, right,
I mean that's the.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
First April twenty four.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Okay, all right, just think about I mean, guy lives
through the Depression, at the end of one world, ward
at the beginning of and through another one, the Grand Conflict,
all the way up to all the social unrest, what's
going on in the in the country for so many years.
That's he's a history book right there. I've never got
to meet this gentleman. I love everything they just said there.
(26:48):
You know, guys like this and you got to give
them their due. And when they when they're telling you
what they think a lot of times in today's world,
that's just going to be pushed to the side. And
again that's always about a different time. Things were different.
It's almost as though we consider that portion of humanity
or that time of existence as being less stand and
(27:09):
I think when you just break it down, the difference
primarily would be more technology. Obviously there's different things that
we do. That's a cell phone is an example, which
I'm still not convinced is a good thing. So there's
all the things that have come down the path since then,
and because people are back then didn't have them, they're
considered less sophisticated or not. Sometimes it's bright and I
totally disagree with that. I love the experience. I love
(27:31):
the anecdotal stuff. I think it's great that a guy
like him would survived that long and be able to
pass that kind.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Of stuff along to us.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I've always my mentors are like so near and dear
to my heart, and the ability to transfer what they
have taught me to present day is really important to me.
So never met the man, it's just all fabulous stuff,
and congratulations to him and his family. I mean that's
pretty much a life well lived right there.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, that's a good point too. I mean, we can
do a much better job of honoring and cherishing our
elders the way other some other cultures do. There's no
question about it. And the story about Yogi and his
comic books reminds me the famous story he also Yogi
also roomed with Bobby Brown, who was got a medical
degree and studying for it. He used to always read
(28:20):
medical journals, you know, before turning out the lights. And
Yogi was reading his comic book one night and gets
to the end of the book and says, Wow, that
was great. How did yours turn out, doc?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
That's so good?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
How about he roomed with How about that concept too? Oh,
I mean nobody, nobody rooms with I mean, my god,
and that was just a normal roomy I mean Jimmy Reese,
Oh my god, I love Jimmy Reese. We're talking about
people that lived in that era. Jimmy claims, I'm sure
it's true. Had been bab Routes roommate on the road
on occasion, and you said, how is Babe on the
(28:57):
road And he pretty much says, well, I was rooming.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
With the suitcase, that's all I said. I was never there.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yes, So these guys got I mean there's another that's
a great story in and of itself. The stories that
Jimmy Rees used to pass down to us during spring trainings. Gosh,
every day he look forward to his meeting up with them.
He was late eighties, early nineties at that point. I
think he died in ninety three or ninety four. But
(29:23):
here's a contemporary man in his eight He was contemporary.
His sense of humor was bright. It was he got it.
He got the joke, He got the joke of the day.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
His eyes would always be bright.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
He'd have chewing tobacco coming down the corners of his
mouth as he spoke, to his teeth jagging him brown,
just from chewing tobacco for so many years. He put
his hand on your shoulder, look you're right in the eyeballs,
and talk to you about something that happened that morning.
Mark Langston, Chuck Finley, and Jimmy Abbott just clung to
him like you know, flies on a paper on a
(29:56):
fly stick. I mean, they were round Jimmy all the time.
Missed those kind of guys. That's that's part of the game.
The game doesn't really it doesn't cherish that kind of
opinion anymore or having those kind of people around. I
think Jimmy Leland's in Detroit camp right now, which is
bully for Detroit. That kind of stuff, you know, the
(30:18):
six degrees of separation talking about Kevin Bak and this
also exists in our game. I was attached to branch
Rickey because of Don Zimmer and Preston Gomez and those
kind of people. That, to me, is one of the
parts of the game that I was most concerned about,
is who is attending to the minor league players on
a daily basis and what I mean, the contemporary guys.
(30:41):
We talked about diversity. I think we mentioned in the book.
I'm into generational diversity. I think that's not spoken about
it enough. Just by having generational diversity within your group,
you're gonna have varied opinions just based on when somebody
grew up. So that's part of it that I really
would love to I mean, if I ever had an
opportunity to do it again, it would really stress generational
diversity also as being a big part of the teaching process.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
As a great point, and speaking of experience, I mentioned
we're going to talk about a second major leaguer we
lost at the age of ninety eight. Frank Soche, who
also by the way of that generation. He spent two
years as an officer in the Navy. He's most famous
for taking in a bet that he actually didn't take.
It was August nineteenth, nineteen fifty one, and he was
(31:25):
the right fielder and leadoff hitter for the Saint Louis
Browns second game of a doubleheader at Sportsman Park. Now,
the Browns are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary of American League
play on this particular day or this year, and on
this day they celebrated at Bill Beck, of course, was
their owner. So as Frank is taking is it beat
(31:45):
or walking up to the play, the manager calls him
back and he's going to pinch hit for him. It
turned out Frank was hurt anyway, and it was all
just a ruse because the pinch hitter set up for
him was three foot seven Eddie Goodell, a circus showman,
literally a circus showman. The umpire asks, you know, basically,
he says, what's going on here? You can't hit and
(32:05):
the manager says, we actually have him under contract, and
they produced the contract. They hadn't filed it with the league,
but they had their own piece of paper with the
contract that he signed. So the pitcher is a guy
by the name of Bob Kane, and the catcher is
a guy named Bob Swift. Swift goes out to the
mound like they don't know what to do. The catcher
winds up laying down on the ground. The umpire says,
(32:26):
you can't do that, trying to set a low target.
The pitcher, Bobby Kyeson, I didn't know whether to throw
the ball underhanded or overhand. I was just careful not
to hit the guy, he said. Dizzy Trout later told
him that if he was the pitcher, he'd thrown one
right between his eyes. Well's a good thing he didn't.
And of course Eddie Goddell walked on four pitches and
(32:48):
they pinched ran for him. It's it's one of the
most famous pictures Joe in baseball history of Eddie Goodell
up there at the plate and you know he the
umpire actually is his head is way above Eddie Goddell's
head trying to call pitches. A four pitch walk. Obviously,
nothing like that can ever happen again. But that that's
that's Bill Veck for you, right. Everybody left the park
(33:11):
that night with a smile on their face. No matter
how the game turned out. Any other Browns lost as
he usually did, then they lost one hundred and two games.
But Frank Soche was the batter.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
He's more famous for that than anything he did in
the major leagues. The fact that he was pinched it
for by three foot seven.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Eddie Goodell, the automatic ball strike system would have had
a field day with that right there. And they're gonna
be pushing buttons all over the place to try to
set the strike zone up properly.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You know, it's interesting you bring that up. Jah. I
was talking to somebody at MLB the other day. They're
actually laser guiding measuring every player in the big leagues
in spring training this year so that they can set
their strike zone properly. So I think what they're finding
out is a lot of the listings of players height
not that accurate, right, So they're getting it to the
nearest millimeter in terms of guy's height to set that.
(33:59):
But go ahead, But.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
What okay, And first of all, that picture, I could
just see it in my mind's side. He was in
a and he was in a squad like he was
like really sitting down there right. Absolutely, But with all
this stuff, with the measuring height and whatever, what is it?
Do they take into account the actual stance where the
guy stands up?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Squad? So I don't understand why is that not pertinent?
Did they? Did they make that clear or not?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well, they didn't want guys gaming the system. I guess,
you know, like a little league when it's a three
to zero count and then your coach tells you to
get really small. I guess they didn't want to see
this some of that happened.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Okay, that that kind of makes sense, but again, just
to measure somebody up.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I mean, was it.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Tall guys need to hit learn it the low ball better,
and short guys have to learn it the high ball better.
Based on all of this, I mean beyond that, I've
always thought that shorter players in the big leagues really
I need to be good highball hitters. I've never observation.
I've always thought that you get the the shorter guys
getting higher pitches called more often. Kevin Kings in our
(35:01):
book KK, when he was in Double A with me Midland,
he used to wear his pants way down all the
George Hendrick and then the second half of the season.
I said, KK, pull your pants up to like right
at your knees are slightly above and see if that
helps you. Because the ball down was kicking his but
he was kind of like built like Don, looked like
Don Baylor, and so he like tore it up in
the second half because all of a sudden, the little
(35:22):
strike wasn't there anymore. So I'm just curious how this
all plays out, the complaints that are going to be
registered with that, I'm still you know, the is it
really impactful to have I know it's it's only spring training,
but to have two pitches being challengeable?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And what is the end game with all this?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Is the endgame to really just gradually like almost like
the stair step method of becoming a better pitcher or
more durable. Is this a stair step method just to
break the general public and the TEP the players into
having full of limentation of the system and what that's
going to look like. All this stuff to me is curious,
But I again, what is the end game? Is the
(36:01):
endgame to just truly turn our entire lives over to
AI and to eliminate the human element completely because the
world in general is on path for that and the
other part, I mean, what is the other part of
the end game is how much of this is attached
to gambling and accuracy. But nobody ever talks about that.
I don't read anything about that. To me, that's something
(36:22):
that needs to be discussed in regards to why it
has to be so accurate. It's almost I was looking
at I was thinking about years ago when the automatic
strikes owner the the NFL when they went to over
the overreach was trying to replay pass interference or not.
Where are we going with all this? What are we
(36:43):
going to continually try to implement what is really necessary
in regards to instant replay and to make the game
a better game. So there's a lot of questions here.
What is the end game? We don't even talk about
check swings, although what I understand is that this system
is going to somehow help deciphering what a checkswing is
(37:04):
or not. I'm curious about that. To me, that would
be the more important part of this whole system is
to try to devise a way to get that right.
As opposed to all this concern about measuring people not
taking an account their actual height or stand I mean
their actual stances and what optically what it's going to
(37:25):
look like. And I know it's been done in the
minor leagues. I don't know enough about this, but these
are the questions I have.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I'm gonna be naive here and tell you the endgame
here is to make sure that the egregious bad call
does not change the outcome of game. That was the
the impetus I think for getting calls right on the basis,
you know, even going back to the near no hitter
of Galarraga. But I think you make a good point, Joe.
(37:50):
You can get carried away with this. So I'm just
hoping that the end game is not a full blown
robo Every pitch is called by a robo umpire, but
with limited challenges. Save them for the key moments and game.
You know that three to two pitch with the bases loaded,
that can really change the outcome of a game. That's
an obvious blown call. You I everybody at home can
(38:11):
see it. Get that one right. I'm okay with that.
And I think there's actually part of this, Joe, is
actually fan engagement, because I've been at spring training games
where the challenge is put up there on the board
and people really respond to it. They do. They get
a kick out of seeing something revealed in real time
to them. You've seen it before for years and years
(38:33):
of tennis with the Hawkeye system. So it's always a
good question to ask, Joe, where is it going, right,
because something that starts out really well can get carried
away if you put too much faith in technology. I
like the system the way it is now, and our
fans shouldn't remember that it's not being used during the
regular season this year. Most likely implemented next regular season.
(38:56):
But from what I've seen in spring training, Joe, I
like what's happening now, And yes, I do worry that
it expands to something more. But if they can keep
it within these guardrails, I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
But the three to two count could be the first inning, right,
the three two count the bases though it is, it
could be you know, that's because right and if you
are right, do you get to retain this challenge or
does it just go.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
You only get two yes, so you could keep that
in a perpetuity.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Only get two that are okay, so you could like
you could actually have nine during the course of the game.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Ten during the course of the game. You could okay
with that.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Now I could tell you the minor leagues the hit
rate on getting those challenges right, it's about fifty to
fifty the same as it is on the basis right
now the major leagues.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
And again, who you're going to permit to to make
these calls? I know, I guess the catcher is a
popular part of this, or should be.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
You can catch your hitter, that's it. You can't look
to the dugout and it has to be done immediately.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Right, And so I wouldn't rely on the picture at all.
I mean, there's so much emotion there, Joe.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
The other day, I saw a hitter challenge an oh
pitch in the first inning and he was wrong. There
you will as a manager, that will drive you nuts.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I mean, don't you have to like eliminate those that
are not permitted to challenges based on their history of
always bitching a complaining.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I mean, there's all that.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
And how about the time the catcher chooses because I
had heard that the pitcher was not going to be permitted,
or the teams are trying to keep him out of
it because he's too emotional in regards to whether the
pitcher is a ball or a strike. But my concern
there would be that the catcher, if that were the
case of the catcher chooses to not challenge the pitch
it was a ball. After the thing's over, they found
(40:35):
out that it was a strike, and all of a
sudden you have this potential argument between a pitcher and
the catcher based on whether we challenge it or not.
There's there's all kinds of little built in here that
I think, of course, he got to play through it
over course of time and we'll find the conclusion. They're
going to find tune it. I get all that, But again,
we're in starch of perfection all the time, and I've
(40:57):
always unized to tell I should tell Troy Glossi all
the time in the before the game, is at his
seat in the clubhouse, or sometimes during the course of
the game. Perfection is a boring concept, it really is.
I mean, if we arrive at perfection, why do it?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
What's the point here?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
But if everything has to be perfect all the time,
I think we always have to be seek to be perfect.
I don't like machines, this continually subtracting passion from.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
The game and just pure.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
We're waiting on this thing to tell us whether we
were right or wrong, and then we accept it blindly.
And that's it, because now the emotion is gone from
all of this. We're subtracting passion and the emotion constantly.
The more engagement we get from technology, those human qualities
go away. And to me, that was a big part
of why you're in the digout and why you love
the game so much.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Well, just to put a kicker on our Eddie Goodell's
story here, he passed away in nineteen sixty one and
there was one baseball person who came to his funeral,
which was in Chicago, and that was the picture who
walked him. Bob Kane drove three hundred miles from Cleveland
to Chicago to be there to say goodbye to Eddie Goodell.
(42:10):
Now Bill Veck did send flowers, wasn't able to make
it there, But I thought that was just a cool
kicker to the story that you know it was ten
years later. Bob kin and like Frank Soche, was just
tied to this event, no matter what else he did
in his career, more than anything else, wanted to go
say goodbye to again. If you look at the photograph.
(42:31):
You haven't seen him before. I don't know where you've been,
but it's one of the most famous photographs in baseball history.
The catcher on his knees and Eddie Goodell, as you mentioned,
Joe and his crouch at the plate. Couldn't be possible
something like that in today's game. So that's Frank Soche
died at the age of ninety eight, was the batter
who gave up his at bet for one of the
(42:53):
most famous pin hitting appearances in baseball history. That's what
I want to talk about next, Joe, and we're to
take a quick break. Here is a manager and of
course subject near and dear to your heart, managers and salaries.
We have a new top salary among managers. We'll talk
about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(43:25):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. And Joe probably
heard and saw Dave Roberts of the LA Dodgers finally
signed his contract extension. He's only just done a terrific
job for the LA Dodgers, won a couple of World championships,
but he did leap Craig Council as the highest paid
manager in baseball history. Craig Council had a five year,
(43:48):
forty million dollars deal from the Cubs, and Roberts has
gone above that at an average annual value of eight
point one million dollars. Well deserved. It's not a surprise, Joe.
I think we all knew that once that Council contract
was signed at Dave Roberts, with a World championship or
two under his belt, was going to surpass him. And
he has. The salaries haven't moved all that much, certainly,
(44:11):
not like players. But what was your reaction when you
heard about this deal for Dave Roberts.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Very happy, very happy for David. The right thing to
do kind of stuff. I mean, obviously, they've been at
the top of the industry for several years now. Even
when they don't win the final game of the season,
they're still in position to win the final game of
the season. I know Dave pretty well. I really enjoyed
working against him. We had some really good conversations. He's
(44:36):
very polished, he handles things really well, with a real
human touch about him. I think he speaks passionately and
directly regarding whatever the topic might be. I'm not been
with him in an actual clubhouse situation with his players,
but I would believe that it's an easy conversation that
he has with all the guys there as well as
(44:56):
his coaches in the front office. He's a great conduit
to everything that happens out there. There's a lot going
on being a manager of the Dodgers, and that's and
all the aboves, so I'm really happy for him.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
He loves wine too. I think he's got his own.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
A bottle of vineyard or I think it's red Seam,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Oh yeah, that's right. Red seem very good. So anyway,
I'm very happy for all that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
For David.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
He's he's a wonderful guy and absolutely if anybody deserves
to be the highest paid manager, he does.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, listen, I mean the Dodgers, we all know about
their talent and their resources, but don't short change his
abilities as a manager. I think he's as good as
there is. He's a connector people like to be around
Dave Roberts, right. But at the same time, Joey, you
know this, he's got a really strong competitive streak in him.
(45:45):
You know, don't get on his bad side. You know,
he's got an edge to him when he needs it,
and he doesn't have to show it when it's not necessary.
But the biggest thing for me is the guys trust him.
You know, he's a very just an honest, nice human
being that people like being around and players like to
play for him. So good for Dave Roberts. It is
well earned.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah, price publicly criticized privately, I think he does that well.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
He'll show his emotion on the bench during a good moment.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
In the bad moments, he'll just give you that stern look,
but you're not really seeing an over reacting negative kind
of influence for the group on the bench because everybody's
always looking at the manager in both good and bad times,
especially in the bad time. So I think he wears
it well. I think he handles it well. And again
I'm very happy for him and Andrew. I mean, Andrew's
stepping up. The whole group stepping up and doing that
(46:36):
for him. I know when he first came on board
there there was like other people that there being promoted,
such as I think Gay Kapelaer was, and eventually they
stuck with David.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It was a great decision.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, how about Andrew Friedman. By the way, the Dodgers.
They had won three straight division titles under Don Mattingly
when Andrew made the move to Dave Roberts, you know,
trying to get them deeper in the postseason. Pretty good
track record, I would say for mister Andrew Friedman, hiring
Joe Madden and Tampa Bay and Dave Roberts and with
the LA Dodgers, I mean, it's it's what to me, Joe,
it's one of the underrated parts of being a president
(47:12):
baseball operations, general manager, you name your title, was finding
the right person to lead your team, someone you can
work with, and more importantly, some of the players can
work with. That's those are two home runs for Andrew Friedman.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Acquisitional process, that's that's what they he does so well.
I actually sit with Andrew all the time and we
would talk about players whatever, and I say, I'd always
tell him, you're a good scout. You know that you're
a really good scout. Because he was a young man,
younger than me obviously, and he would just break people down,
break players down. And I was really impressed with his
(47:45):
acumen having not done pro ball, you know, never did
the big leagues as a player whatever. Like a lot
of guys haven't. But the way he spoke and the
way he saw things. I was always impressed with that.
He's always had that gift, so you know, I was
fortunate to be part of that also. But yeah, he's
really at that go from Tulane all the way up
(48:05):
where he started out. I though his mom really well barbed.
I mean, this is it's a lot of good stuff
going on there. He's very grounded, almost shy. Sometimes it
looks like he's becoming more of an introvert lately, but
he was always really good at player evaluation. I've always
used to tell him that back in the day.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Congratulations to Dave Roberts, one of the good guys in
the game and certainly one of the best managers. With that, Joe,
and ask you to take us home. What do you
got for us to end this episode of the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Really again touches on everything we've been talking about today
a little bit. The truth and what is the truth then?
And then how do you decipher in your own minds?
I would the truth actually is it's such a controversial subject.
There's when we were growing up, there was the truth,
and there was there was not truth. There lies, but
it's such a gray area anymore. And this comes from
(48:55):
Andy Rooney from the old sixty Minutes stays, and he
might have gotten his somewhere else, but he was pretty
interesting to follow on a weekly basis on sixty minutes.
But people will generally accept facts as truth only if
the facts.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Agree with what they already believe.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
And I think that happens to all of us, and
I really try to guard against that with my own opinions.
Like we were talking, whenever we talk here, I really
try to keep it as pure as I possibly can,
and I think I do.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I've done.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
We're talking about scouting and Andrew Rees in the last
moment here, But as a scouter, as somebody that's running
a minor league system, which I did for a while,
I mean, you have to really set aside your personal
opinions whether you like somebody or not, to really drill
down and find out whether you think he's good or
not at this particular game. Too many times I would
see coaches, you know, managers in the minor league meeting
(49:49):
where they would permit their their evaluation of the player
be influenced by whether they liked him or not, not,
whether he was a good player or not, whether it's
two's plate or not, and that always bothered me. So
I really try to divorce myself from my personal feelings
about whatever when you ask me opinion on we're talking
baseball right now, a player's opinion on a player, or
(50:12):
what I think in general. So you have to really
kind of be able to separate your own personal worries,
what do I believe in? What are my truth for
what you're actually seeing out there, and really leave the emotion,
put the emotion aside. So I think that's what Rouney
was talking about, and I think that's the best. I mean,
if you're going to run a minor league system, and
(50:32):
of course the major league system, but that was my
grandest tenant, was to really try to keep the emotion
out of it, keep your likes and dislikes out of it,
and really bore down to the basics of what are
we seeing, What do the five tools look like?
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Does he have the kind of makeup you know? Is he.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Motivated? Is he not motivated? What was his work ethic
look like? These are the things that really mattered, not
whether or not you liked the guy or not, because
you might have weren't an airring, or you don't like
the way where it's hair, something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, that's really why advice, I think in any line
of work, not just baseball. I mean you're telling listen,
we're all human beings, right, we all have these unconscious biases,
and I think what you're talking about is being aware
as much as you can of those biases, right, and
not just let them go unchecked. And I think it's
great advice, especially when you're talking about either scouting or
(51:24):
player analysis, player evaluation, to kind of check those biases
that naturally you have as a human being.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
There was Nelson Demil novel I used to read all
I read most of Nelson demials. It was about the
Vietnam War. I'm trying to remember exactly the title, but
it was about the Meli massacre and years after following
the leader, the platoon leader of that group comes to
(51:51):
be coming to court martial. They're going to court martial
him and as opposed to the members of the platoon
who actually committed the atrocities whatever.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
But it comes down to the point that at the.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
End of the day, the platoon leaders, guys, is the
person that's going to be let go as opposed to
the platoon if in fact the methods of the organization
on fall. That was my way to describe it to
the coaches and the managers. Listen, you might always agree
with this, but at the end of the day, if
your players are not developing, if they're not getting better,
(52:26):
if they're not whatever their organizational policies, rules and regulations are,
if they're not being upheld, then they're not going to
go after the individual players of the platoon, always going
to go after the platoon leader. And I would try
to get them to understand that in regards to like
we just talked about, really, regardless of your perception of
truth is keep your emotion out of it. Really try
(52:49):
to understand exactly what am I seeing right here and
react from there, but always keeping in mind whatever the
tenants are of this group, they have to be adhere to.
And as the platoon leader, you're the guy that's going
to be in trouble as opposed to the platoon.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
It so, I gotta admit I didn't have the Vietnam
War my Bengo card for today's episode of the Book
of Joe, But that's why I say it's the most
interesting baseball podcast on the planet. You never know where
we will go. Yeah, another good one, Joe, thanks a
lot
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Thanks brother, See you later, man.
Hey, Aaron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast
with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden and Joe.
Happy daylight savings time. It's that time of year, thankfully,
a little more daylight at the end of the day.
What's interesting was, you know in spring training, guys used
to I don't know if this happened to you, Your
guys would show up late because they forgot to move
(00:33):
their clocks. Now the clocks are all pretty much automated.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Right, Yeah, I listen.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am such an advocate and keep reading about possibly
keeping us on that or not or even the other
the standard time. I love the daylight savings time. I
guess what I keep reading in there's probably some substance
to it is about kids walking to school in the
morning as.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Being one of the big detriments to doing something like that.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
But they're doing it for years right now, for a
couple of months at least, so anyway, I really did
on it. I think it's great. I love the extended days.
Just sitting around back in Pennsylvania. Want to get up
there for this summer. It's like to like nine o'clock
sometimes later than that, it seems, and it's just a
it's an uplifting, up upbeat kind of situations. I'm all
(01:19):
about daylight savings time. You have more time on the
golf course too, right.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, I didn't mention that. Hey, I listen. Unfortunately, we
have talked a little bit more about pitcher injuries, and
you know, we've talked a lot about that. We've talked
at the start of spring training about how this is
the most dangerous time of year for pitchers. The incidents
of pitcher injuries is highest in spring training. Last four years.
It actually has gone down after opening Day, but the
(01:45):
rates keep going up in spring training. And this time
it got Garrett Cole. This is a rough one, Joe,
Garrett Cole, Tommy John surgery obviously will miss this twenty
twenty five season, maybe carry into the twenty six season.
Thirty four years old, not getting any younger. Had been
one of the most dural boll pitchers in the game.
(02:06):
Right since twenty fifteen, he threw more two hundred innings
than any other pitcher in baseball, six two hundred inning seasons.
No one else even has five. And he goes down.
Give me your take on what this means for the
new York Yankees Joe, because that was I don't want
to say a given because Garrett did miss the first
couple of months last year with elbow inflammation, but man,
(02:27):
that's a backbone to that pitching staff will not be
there for New York.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, this could be really a tough one overcome. Last
year when he went down, the popular opinion was that
he was going to come back. Now this year, you know,
he's not coming back. So during the latter part of
the season, they're still going to have to replace Garrett
colling up, maybe just for a couple months like it
was last year. And then they also lost heel already
he's already down. I know it's not as severe or
(02:52):
as lengthy possibly, but nevertheless they're missing him too. So
now you're going to get into Stroman, who they didn't
even they try to trade in the off season now
of a sudden becomes pertinent. So the kid Warren pitched
OK last night, little bit of command issues, it's a
big deal. I don't think it's little deal because you
not only lost Coley, you lost Soto. You know, that's
two really big parts of last season that are gone
(03:14):
for this year. And to think that somebody's just gonna
step up and walk in there. It's just very hard
to imagine that that's going to happen. So it's one
of those situations where as a group, this is a
group kind of thing. And I think Aaron Judge being
the captain of the team is very useful right now,
very pertinent right now, maybe even more so than at
(03:34):
other times when things are going well. The kind of
example he sets, the kind of conversation, the narrative that
he does set is gonna matter, I mean, and Boonie's
gonna do it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I mean, I love.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Brian Cashman's candor and the press. I saw him at
the AVA the other night at our restaurant. We had
a nice conversation. He's just full of candor.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Man.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
The guy just he just tells you what's on his mind.
And that's that's what I really think about Brian Cashman.
So I like that part about it. I think he's
gonna he will, He'll sift through all the bs and
just try to do what he thinks is right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But it's a tough one. Man.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You're gonna have to somebody come up out of nowhere.
I got acquisitionally, don't I don't even know what that
would be. People talking about Dylan Ceas and others. Why
why would the Padres give it up right now? I
don't understand that there have to be something under the
hood that we're not aware of.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So, yeah, the Yankees are kind of in trouble right now.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I don't see the light at the end of the
tunnel not being attached to the oncoming train.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's gonna be hard, so we'll see.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
But I think Judge right now really earns his no
pun intended stripes because being the captain now is really important.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's a great point, and he has set a really
good culture there. Quick story before we move on with
pitching here about Judge. When the Yankees drafted Anthony Valpy junior,
Aaron Judge called up Volpi and welcomed him to the
team and quote unquote the family right. Vulpi then turns
around does the same thing when the team drafted George
(04:56):
Lombard Junior. I think that's just so cool paying it
forward like that. In fact, recently the Yankees played spring
training game on the other side of the state. They
go over to the East Coast and play the Cardinals,
and a couple of other teams, and Volti went up
to George Lombard Junior, another first round pick. I mentioned
he talked to him when the Yankees drafted him and said,
you're coming with me, and instead of taking to team bus,
(05:18):
Anthony Voltpi drove him over to the other side drove
him back. So that's the kind of example that Aaron
Judge sets. So I agree there's no panic in this team,
but I do think they're going to have to scour
the universe and maybe that guy get in the line
is Sandy Alcantra of the Marlins, because listen to the Orioles,
they've had pitching injuries already with Grayson Rodriguez going down.
(05:40):
The Mets have had injuries with Sean Menaya and Frankie Montas.
Those are teams that are trying to play the seventh
month of the season that just don't fill gaps. They
need someone at the front of the rotation. So we'll
see where that goes. Yeah, Nicle is interesting, Joe, because
I never saw anything mechanically that was a red flag
for me. With Garrett. I know some people have mentioned
(06:03):
the cutter. He went to that pitch three years ago,
outed the cutter last year, he actually doubled his cutter use.
Maybe that was because the fastball was down a tick
and he threw a few more cutters. Still not a ton,
about fifteen sixteen percent. But I'll tell you a quick
story about Garrett and the way he developed as a pitcher.
When he finally won his first cy young, because he
(06:24):
was in the race for a few of them, his
dad came up to me and he said, Garrett wouldn't
be here without you. And I'm thinking, what in the
world is he talking about, And he said, growing up,
Garrett read a lot of things that I had written
about not packing on too many innings for young pitchers,
basically as the body still develops. I'm talking about guys
(06:47):
even early twenties. Right to me, it's like if you
want to run a marathon, which is a two hundred
inning season for a pitcher, you don't go out there
and run a marathon. How do you get there. You
train to run the marathon. You add miles to get there,
You staircase your workload. So for years practice and the
guys who really ramped up the innings with a big
(07:07):
jump from year to year were the ones more prone
to injuries and Garrett's dad said Garrett followed this advice,
especially in the amateur level when guys wanted to keep
pitching him because he had a great arm. They monitored
Garrett's work and they staircased it. So I didn't see
anything in Garrett's past. Joe to me, whether it's mechanics, workload,
you name it that made him susceptible, But it just
(07:31):
happens now, right, And at least for Garrett, he's pitched
a long time, He's packed on a lot of innings.
This is not something that came along early in his career.
Sometimes the body just gives out, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
There's sometimes it's unexplainable, and I agree with you. The
staircase method, I think is a really good way to
go about almost anything that we're trying to do. Just
build into things and don't go from zero to sixty
all the time. Let's go, you know, twenty thirty, forty,
so eventually get to that number of miles per hour.
It's interesting you mentioned the upgrade, uptick and cutter usage.
(08:03):
I'm not a huge fan of this pitch unless it's
absolutely necessary for the pitcher. The guys that were really
because it's really just a bad fastball. I mean, of
course it could be very effective. Mariano Rivera made it
made that obviously painfully important to left handed hitters. But
I would also believe in this I do. I mean,
if there was an up tickets more than likely an
(08:24):
analytical gesture where they pointed out that if he threw
this one off and they think he would get certain
or better results against the backdoor cutter, probably to the
lefties also on their hands. To me, against the right
handed hitter, it's got to be really located well because
again it's normally thrown a little bit less than the fastball,
and it runs to the barrel of the bat. So
these are the kind of things that I've always looked
(08:45):
at with cutters. You know, Shieldsy was into a James
got into it, David Price got into it, and part
of his career, and sometimes I thought it was kind
of like I would cringe a little bit because I
always felt they were not throwing something they were really
good at at the expense of.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Throwing the cutter.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So everything you just said there, having he having done everything,
having done everything properly, of course the body's going to
break down. Of course, it's unexplainable sometimes absolutely, But the
first thing I would look at would be if there
was anything different, we're doing anything differently.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Over the last year or so.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
That would be where I would approach that. Not like
you're gonna do anything about it. It's just one of
those things. Like I said, for me, I'm always I
was always hyper aware of something when something new is
at it, and then how often that person would that
picture would go to that in expense of something else.
That's that was always it for me. From the dugout,
I would get Hicke easier all the time, Jimmy and
(09:39):
know it's God, I didn't we just back off on
that because like I've always said, Shields had a great curveball,
didn't use it as much because of that. David Price is,
you know, really didn't have that great breaking ball, so
he did need something other than that. A true Slidery
ad that, but not with the kind of confidence, So
the cutter became his kind of go to things. So
I always I'm always, like I said, hyper aware when
(10:02):
a picture adds sometimes and what that may do regarding
the usage and what it could result in.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I like that theory. Joe to me It's not
necessarily the pitch itself, it's how many times do you
throw it and how do you throw it. I've seen
pitchers lose velocity off there for Seemer by throwing too
many cutters. I've seen that happen, and a lot of
times I've seen guys try to manipulate the baseball with
the cutter rather than really it's all stems from the grip.
You shouldn't throw it differently than your fastball, right, you're
(10:32):
just getting a little off center, changing the spin axis.
But you see some guys try to manipulate it and
work that ball more, and I think that's where you
could get in some trouble. Interesting to see now, Paul
skeins he's got the best stuff on the planet throwing
a cutter this spring, We'll see how often he throws
that pitch. Listen, I've seen him throw it. It's a
(10:52):
great pitch. Does he need it? He feels like he does.
He's the kind of guy who wants as many weapons
as he can. And again, we'll keep an eye on
how often he throws that pitch. If this brings me
to something, Joe, we talk a lot about this, the
kind of the devaluation of starting pitchers. Right, guys get
pulled out of the game when they're cruising through five
innings because it's third time around, they've only got seventy
(11:14):
five pitches. I was talking to Max Schurzer the other
day and he's got a pretty interesting idea that it's
at least the conversation starter. He calls it the qualified starter,
where to be qualified, you would have to throw one
of hit one of three thresholds. You know, six innings,
you throw one hundred pitches, or you give up four runs. Now,
(11:36):
if the team takes you out before you reach any
one of those three thresholds, you're unqualified, and there's a
penalty the team has to pay. It could be, and
he wasn't definitive on this, maybe you lose your DH.
Maybe the other team gets a free substitution, a pinch
hitter or a pinch runner. Or if you get the
extra innings, one team gets the runner on second base.
(11:58):
The other team with the unqualified starter does not. You know, listen,
you can argue about penalties. Get it. But he's he's
driving at something, Joe, I think there's something there. As
he said, nobody wants to see a guy throw five
innings cruising with seventy five pitches, and he's taken out
of the game expressly because it's the lineup turning a
(12:19):
third time around. So hitting these thresholds, how do we
get starting pitchers to pitch more often and not try
to get a swing and miss on every pitch. If
you take the ball and your job now is to
go at least six innings or one hundred pitches, you
can't afford to just chase swing and miss on every
one of your pitches. You can't max out, and maybe
(12:39):
that keeps pitchers healthier. You can argue with some of
the details of this, Joe, but I think he's driving
at something the game really has to consider.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I agree with that, But there has to be a
paradigm shift mentally among the people that are running the game.
I mean, after all, you know, why can't this I
still I always I always go back to my minor leagues,
in my minor league experience. I know there's less teams,
I know there's less up or tunity, but why isn't
this being done in the minor leagues?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Now?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
You talked about the step being stone process or the
step process of building somebody up sure rookie ball a
ball double A and build it in through there and
and really teach guys how to get through that third
time through this. Listen, if you could build an analytical
base at it base based on not having somebody pitch
the third time through, there's got to be a method
(13:29):
out there that you could teach somebody how to pitch
the third time through. What is that going to take?
Can't you break down those that have been successful at
this and how they did it, and furthermore, just giving
guys the opportunity to do it and sink or swim
in that in that particular moment. How do I get
these guys out? Does it mean withholding certain pitches earlier
in the game, saving something for later in the game.
(13:50):
Does it mean less than maximum effort on every pitch,
more pitchability, more first pitch outs, pitch the contact when
it's earlier in a game, earlier in account, you know
they always trying to miss a bat, maximum effort kind
of stuff. That's part of I think the reason why
this is devaulved to the point it has so I
(14:12):
get what he's saying. It makes sense not gonna argue
that at all. But I would really appreciate a more
concentrated effort in the minor leagues to get guys up
to speed with learning how to do this kind of stuff,
because I'm telling you, man, I know as I lived
it in the minor leagues. When I ran the minor leagues,
on the field, if I came into town and almost invariably,
(14:35):
you know, guys would throw complete games. Whether it was
David Holdridge one time, I thought he'd turn him around.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
In the minor leagues.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
At that particular time, Colin was callings s can't remember
specifically with Colin Hilly Hathaway. These guys all of a
sudden through nine innings, and I swear to the next
four or five starts they were like King Kaong. They
went out there because they had a different attitude about
themselves to be able to walk off the mound in
the ninth inning you win. Catcher comes and greets you, Matters,
(15:03):
all that stuff, matt in the development of a pitcher
as an athlete and as being successful in getting through
difficult moments.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
We just don't permit it. It's not permitted, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I mean, we have to give a zoning permit to
allow guys to go after the third time through or
get into the six plus inning and then again, I mean,
it's always going to save your bullpit. It's easier from
a manager's perspective to try to get six or eight
outs as opposed to like all this, shoot nine, twelve,
fifteen outs sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
How do you do that on a.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Nightly basis and expect to get to the World Series
and win it unless you just have this super glut
of relief pitchers lying around.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So start in the minor leagues. Teach guys how to this.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, well you're right about that. You're right about that, Joe.
It can be taught. But Max's point, and I agree
with this, is that's not going to happen organically with
the game we have now, with pitchers chasing velocity in
front offices, rewardings swing and miss right, no one is
going to decide to go back the other way. So
Max's point night with this is the only way you
(16:05):
can do it is to legislate it. As he said,
you're going to have to convince the analyst upstairs that
the incentives are worth having a picture stay in the game.
You have to change something about the rules of the
game to make the analyst change the way and they
decide this the way the game is played. I don't
(16:25):
think it's going to happen organically.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I'm not arguing that at all.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I'm just saying I think a better way for me
would be that to somehow somebody's got to step up
at one of these points. Somebody's got to get tired
of all these injuries, these Tommy Johns having to like
really scramble to get five guys that you like during
the course of a season without any really anybody coming
up from the ranks below, because nobody's developed enough, nobody
(16:52):
knows how to do this. At some point, somebody's got
to realize that, and you have to that. You got
to again the definition of insanity. At some point, you
got to realize, maybe this doesn't work, maybe this isn't
as good as we thought it was. And like I've
said before, it's not necessarily that the game hasn't changed.
People who are running the game have changed the game.
That's what nobody talks about. It's still there. I still
(17:14):
believe in kids. I still believe you get a young
guy's pitcher, good body, good armstroke, knows how to pitch.
I still believe and I always believe that you can
get him and teach a lot of them, not just
a few, how to get through that third time through
the bat a good and more successfully. It's just not
it's just because it's mathematically been proven to this point
that you can't do it, or insinuated that you can't
(17:36):
do it. So thus it becomes part.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Of the game. And I don't agree with it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Here's how I gonna throw some numbers at you. Here,
here's how much the game has changed just in the
last ten years. Because I know people are going to say, well,
you know, no one's going to throw three hundred innings,
and you know Nolan Ryan all his no. We're talking
about just recently, basically Garrett Cole's career. The span of
ten years, the last decade, the number of starts of
six innings has gone down thirty six percent. The number
(18:04):
of starts in which a starter was allowed to throw
one hundred pitches, and just the last ten years has
gone down seventy percent. I mean that is a sea
change in the game. In the postseason, the last one
hundred and sixty eight starts in the postseason, it's the
last two years, one hundred and sixty eight starts. In
(18:25):
one hundred and sixty one out of one hundred and
sixty eight starts, the starter has been pulled before he
got to one hundred pitches. I mean, that's just staggering.
The average number of pitches thrown by a starter in
the last ten years has gone from ninety six to
eighty five. Eighty five is now the average number of
pitches thrown by a major league starter. So, yes, I
(18:46):
think Max Schurzer is driving at something. How we get
there we can certainly debate that, but we need to
have the conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Eighty five that's the number that you try to get
up to, at least before your first start of the
season when you break camp, you know, and now of
a sudden that becomes the norm where the gold standard
I listen, it makes no sense.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
It is.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
It's actually internally legislated by each organization. And again, the
part of this is that everybody believes the same thing.
Everybody passes the same information along to everybody else, and
nobody's willing to be the outlier to say, no, you
know what, this really isn't working. After all, how many
of these teams have really been successful in the postseason
are just like during the regular season. There they're standard records.
(19:30):
A number of victories for me, nineties them should be
the minimum that I want to win on an annual basis.
You go into camp, the number is the bar should
at least be ninety games. And that's not always going
back then, it didn't even ten fifteen years ago. That
wasn't assured. To get you into the to the playoffs.
You have to you have to you have to expand
your goals. Somebody's got to take this chance. Somebody's got
(19:51):
to say, you know what, this just isn't working to
the level. And I don't want to be like everybody else.
Why does everybody all of a sudden want to be
like everybody else? So that's that's the part that that
really it does bother me, and of course probably showing
my own sensibilities here and what I believe is the truth.
So that's fine, But I just I'm waiting for that
(20:12):
one group to have the kind of like the baseball
courge to say, you know what, we're gonna do this
a little bit differently when it start this minor league season.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
We're going to grow from there, and I'd really be
curious to see what happens after that.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Hey, Another one of our favorite subjects here in the
Book of Joe is show Hey Otani, and recently Arry
Bonds went after show Hey Otani, Joe, We've got to
talk about that, and we will right after this quick
break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the
(20:51):
Book of Joe. I mentioned Barry Bonds. He was on
a podcast called All the Smoke, and he gave his
props to show, Hey, is this amazing player that show
Hey is? But he also said the game has changed.
The game is way different than it was when I played.
We're getting some off my lawn here stuff here, Joe.
(21:12):
He said the same way Michael as in Jordan talks
about it, or anybody does. Otani is not going to
hit two home runs without seeing one go by his ear.
In my generation, I don't care what he does. He's
not going to steal two bases without someone decapitating his
kneecap to slow him down. It's a different game back then.
(21:32):
I mean, I gotta take exception with this. First of all,
Barry Bonds played twenty two years. He was hit by
a pitch one hundred and six times, a little less
than five hit by pitches per year. He also, once
he bulked up, went to this gigantic arm guard, which
was so big Baseball had to put in legislation to
(21:52):
limit the size of those things. In nineteen ninety three,
he had forty six home runs, led the National League
in home runs. He was hit by a pitch twice. Listen,
this guy should not be talking about the you know,
the advantage quote unquote that Shohy has with not getting
hit by pitches. We haven't even talked about steroids yet
as well. Talk about advantages. The sixth highest hit by
(22:15):
pitch rates in baseball history are twenty eighteen, nineteen, twenty two,
twenty three, twenty four, the last six years full seasons
the highest rate of hit by pitches. He doesn't know
what he's talking about when it comes to how the
game quote unquote has changed, Joe. So, I don't think
you can take anything away from show hey, the fact
that people aren't dusting him. Listen, it's basically just get
(22:38):
off my lawn stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, listen, I'm hearing all of that, and I know
I actually watched Bonds play at Arizona State he did.
He was so armored up when he came up to
the plate. Even if it hit him, he wouldn't have
felt it for a variety of different reasons. Part of
what's going on more recently, obviously, guys are throwing harder.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Guys are throwing harder with like these maximum.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Effort deliveries elevated in has become in vogue, and are
just trying to throw as hard as they can spin
at the top of the zone, which we've had the
more recently, they're going to make the argument about the
pine tar not being available and thus we have less command.
I'm not buying that completely, but I just think it's
just the methods being taught. But when Bonds pitched, it
was more command kind of pitchers guys that really was.
(23:24):
It was about fastball command.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
First. You wanted to be able to throw.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Your fastball for a strike when you wanted to not
just being able to throw it for a strike. There's
times you don't want to throw it for a strike.
In my meager existence, I used to catch Tommy John
and Jeff's on and spring trainings, and I swear to
these guys never threw the ball over the white part
of the plate. That was not part of their game.
They were off the end, They lived off the edges
all the time, and they could. So I think part
of the getting hit more often is it necessarily head
(23:50):
hunting or trying to hit people. It's just the inability
to really command pitches that are thrown that hard move
that much. And I don't, like I said, the legitimacy
of the excuse of not having a substance on the ball.
I'm not one hundred percent that, So yeah, I mean
we always talk about, you know, the previous generations being
way tougher than the present generation.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's my dad thought that about us.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
So my dad's dad thought that about his group too,
just the way it is we we we perceived the
group in play right now as being less masculine as
we were in regards everything that they're doing.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So I don't buy that either.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So yeah, I could see where the numbers have gone
up guys being hit. I think part of it is
the methods being taught. I think the fact that guys
aren't necessarily great pictures anymore. They have great arms, and
they'll throw the ball hard and all this other kind
of stuff, and it's going to get away. It's going
to get away more often, just based on the maximum
effort delivery and the general philosophy in the game.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Hey, another thing we like to do here Joe is
acknowledge some great baseball lives, and I want to talk
about two former Big leaguers that we lost recently, including
the oldest living player at the time. At his death,
he was one hundred years old, Art Shallock. He was
left handed pitcher. He actually played on a few Yankees
World Championship teams. Art he was something of a character.
(25:10):
He had this basically, this was on his obituary on
his legacy page, a quote from Art. Those players who
cheated by using steroids, I hope they never get into
the Hall of Fame. If Ted Williams or Mickey Mannal
had use those drugs, they would have hit one thousand
home runs each. So the steroid users should have had
their records thrown away forever. Tell it like it is,
(25:33):
Art Listen. He was quite a character, and he's from
that greatest generation. Joe. He earned eleven Battle Stars in
the Navy. He was at Iwo Jima. He was at Okinawa.
Originally signed by the Dodgers, he's picked up by the Yankees.
He wound up rooming with Yogi Berra, and Yogi used
to send him downstairs to the lobby to pick up
what he called his funnies, the comic books. Yoga would
(25:55):
read his comic books. What a character. In fact, there
was a quote after he passed away at one hundred
where the nurse said, he left us burning just as
bright as ever, one last beer, a smoke, and a milkshake.
You talk about life well lived, how about that.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I'd be in a bathroom all night with that kind
of combination. Means this guy was born in nineteen twenty five, right,
I mean that's the.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
First April twenty four.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Okay, all right, just think about I mean, guy lives
through the Depression, at the end of one world, ward
at the beginning of and through another one, the Grand Conflict,
all the way up to all the social unrest, what's
going on in the in the country for so many years.
That's he's a history book right there. I've never got
to meet this gentleman. I love everything they just said there.
(26:48):
You know, guys like this and you got to give
them their due. And when they when they're telling you
what they think a lot of times in today's world,
that's just going to be pushed to the side. And
again that's always about a different time. Things were different.
It's almost as though we consider that portion of humanity
or that time of existence as being less stand and
(27:09):
I think when you just break it down, the difference
primarily would be more technology. Obviously there's different things that
we do. That's a cell phone is an example, which
I'm still not convinced is a good thing. So there's
all the things that have come down the path since then,
and because people are back then didn't have them, they're
considered less sophisticated or not. Sometimes it's bright and I
totally disagree with that. I love the experience. I love
(27:31):
the anecdotal stuff. I think it's great that a guy
like him would survived that long and be able to
pass that kind.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Of stuff along to us.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I've always my mentors are like so near and dear
to my heart, and the ability to transfer what they
have taught me to present day is really important to me.
So never met the man, it's just all fabulous stuff,
and congratulations to him and his family. I mean that's
pretty much a life well lived right there.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, that's a good point too. I mean, we can
do a much better job of honoring and cherishing our
elders the way other some other cultures do. There's no
question about it. And the story about Yogi and his
comic books reminds me the famous story he also Yogi
also roomed with Bobby Brown, who was got a medical
degree and studying for it. He used to always read
(28:20):
medical journals, you know, before turning out the lights. And
Yogi was reading his comic book one night and gets
to the end of the book and says, Wow, that
was great. How did yours turn out, doc?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
That's so good?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
How about he roomed with How about that concept too? Oh,
I mean nobody, nobody rooms with I mean, my god,
and that was just a normal roomy I mean Jimmy Reese,
Oh my god, I love Jimmy Reese. We're talking about
people that lived in that era. Jimmy claims, I'm sure
it's true. Had been bab Routes roommate on the road
on occasion, and you said, how is Babe on the
(28:57):
road And he pretty much says, well, I was rooming.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
With the suitcase, that's all I said. I was never there.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yes, So these guys got I mean there's another that's
a great story in and of itself. The stories that
Jimmy Rees used to pass down to us during spring trainings. Gosh,
every day he look forward to his meeting up with them.
He was late eighties, early nineties at that point. I
think he died in ninety three or ninety four. But
(29:23):
here's a contemporary man in his eight He was contemporary.
His sense of humor was bright. It was he got it.
He got the joke, He got the joke of the day.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
His eyes would always be bright.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
He'd have chewing tobacco coming down the corners of his
mouth as he spoke, to his teeth jagging him brown,
just from chewing tobacco for so many years. He put
his hand on your shoulder, look you're right in the eyeballs,
and talk to you about something that happened that morning.
Mark Langston, Chuck Finley, and Jimmy Abbott just clung to
him like you know, flies on a paper on a
(29:56):
fly stick. I mean, they were round Jimmy all the time.
Missed those kind of guys. That's that's part of the game.
The game doesn't really it doesn't cherish that kind of
opinion anymore or having those kind of people around. I
think Jimmy Leland's in Detroit camp right now, which is
bully for Detroit. That kind of stuff, you know, the
(30:18):
six degrees of separation talking about Kevin Bak and this
also exists in our game. I was attached to branch
Rickey because of Don Zimmer and Preston Gomez and those
kind of people. That, to me, is one of the
parts of the game that I was most concerned about,
is who is attending to the minor league players on
a daily basis and what I mean, the contemporary guys.
(30:41):
We talked about diversity. I think we mentioned in the book.
I'm into generational diversity. I think that's not spoken about
it enough. Just by having generational diversity within your group,
you're gonna have varied opinions just based on when somebody
grew up. So that's part of it that I really
would love to I mean, if I ever had an
opportunity to do it again, it would really stress generational
diversity also as being a big part of the teaching process.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
As a great point, and speaking of experience, I mentioned
we're going to talk about a second major leaguer we
lost at the age of ninety eight. Frank Soche, who
also by the way of that generation. He spent two
years as an officer in the Navy. He's most famous
for taking in a bet that he actually didn't take.
It was August nineteenth, nineteen fifty one, and he was
(31:25):
the right fielder and leadoff hitter for the Saint Louis
Browns second game of a doubleheader at Sportsman Park. Now,
the Browns are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary of American League
play on this particular day or this year, and on
this day they celebrated at Bill Beck, of course, was
their owner. So as Frank is taking is it beat
(31:45):
or walking up to the play, the manager calls him
back and he's going to pinch hit for him. It
turned out Frank was hurt anyway, and it was all
just a ruse because the pinch hitter set up for
him was three foot seven Eddie Goodell, a circus showman,
literally a circus showman. The umpire asks, you know, basically,
he says, what's going on here? You can't hit and
(32:05):
the manager says, we actually have him under contract, and
they produced the contract. They hadn't filed it with the league,
but they had their own piece of paper with the
contract that he signed. So the pitcher is a guy
by the name of Bob Kane, and the catcher is
a guy named Bob Swift. Swift goes out to the
mound like they don't know what to do. The catcher
winds up laying down on the ground. The umpire says,
(32:26):
you can't do that, trying to set a low target.
The pitcher, Bobby Kyeson, I didn't know whether to throw
the ball underhanded or overhand. I was just careful not
to hit the guy, he said. Dizzy Trout later told
him that if he was the pitcher, he'd thrown one
right between his eyes. Well's a good thing he didn't.
And of course Eddie Goddell walked on four pitches and
(32:48):
they pinched ran for him. It's it's one of the
most famous pictures Joe in baseball history of Eddie Goodell
up there at the plate and you know he the
umpire actually is his head is way above Eddie Goddell's
head trying to call pitches. A four pitch walk. Obviously,
nothing like that can ever happen again. But that that's
that's Bill Veck for you, right. Everybody left the park
(33:11):
that night with a smile on their face. No matter
how the game turned out. Any other Browns lost as
he usually did, then they lost one hundred and two games.
But Frank Soche was the batter.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
He's more famous for that than anything he did in
the major leagues. The fact that he was pinched it
for by three foot seven.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Eddie Goodell, the automatic ball strike system would have had
a field day with that right there. And they're gonna
be pushing buttons all over the place to try to
set the strike zone up properly.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You know, it's interesting you bring that up. Jah. I
was talking to somebody at MLB the other day. They're
actually laser guiding measuring every player in the big leagues
in spring training this year so that they can set
their strike zone properly. So I think what they're finding
out is a lot of the listings of players height
not that accurate, right, So they're getting it to the
nearest millimeter in terms of guy's height to set that.
(33:59):
But go ahead, But.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
What okay, And first of all, that picture, I could
just see it in my mind's side. He was in
a and he was in a squad like he was
like really sitting down there right. Absolutely, But with all
this stuff, with the measuring height and whatever, what is it?
Do they take into account the actual stance where the
guy stands up?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Squad? So I don't understand why is that not pertinent?
Did they? Did they make that clear or not?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well, they didn't want guys gaming the system. I guess,
you know, like a little league when it's a three
to zero count and then your coach tells you to
get really small. I guess they didn't want to see
this some of that happened.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Okay, that that kind of makes sense, but again, just
to measure somebody up.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I mean, was it.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Tall guys need to hit learn it the low ball better,
and short guys have to learn it the high ball better.
Based on all of this, I mean beyond that, I've
always thought that shorter players in the big leagues really
I need to be good highball hitters. I've never observation.
I've always thought that you get the the shorter guys
getting higher pitches called more often. Kevin Kings in our
(35:01):
book KK, when he was in Double A with me Midland,
he used to wear his pants way down all the
George Hendrick and then the second half of the season.
I said, KK, pull your pants up to like right
at your knees are slightly above and see if that
helps you. Because the ball down was kicking his but
he was kind of like built like Don, looked like
Don Baylor, and so he like tore it up in
the second half because all of a sudden, the little
(35:22):
strike wasn't there anymore. So I'm just curious how this
all plays out, the complaints that are going to be
registered with that, I'm still you know, the is it
really impactful to have I know it's it's only spring training,
but to have two pitches being challengeable?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And what is the end game with all this?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Is the endgame to really just gradually like almost like
the stair step method of becoming a better pitcher or
more durable. Is this a stair step method just to
break the general public and the TEP the players into
having full of limentation of the system and what that's
going to look like. All this stuff to me is curious,
But I again, what is the end game? Is the
(36:01):
endgame to just truly turn our entire lives over to
AI and to eliminate the human element completely because the
world in general is on path for that and the
other part, I mean, what is the other part of
the end game is how much of this is attached
to gambling and accuracy. But nobody ever talks about that.
I don't read anything about that. To me, that's something
(36:22):
that needs to be discussed in regards to why it
has to be so accurate. It's almost I was looking
at I was thinking about years ago when the automatic
strikes owner the the NFL when they went to over
the overreach was trying to replay pass interference or not.
Where are we going with all this? What are we
(36:43):
going to continually try to implement what is really necessary
in regards to instant replay and to make the game
a better game. So there's a lot of questions here.
What is the end game? We don't even talk about
check swings, although what I understand is that this system
is going to somehow help deciphering what a checkswing is
(37:04):
or not. I'm curious about that. To me, that would
be the more important part of this whole system is
to try to devise a way to get that right.
As opposed to all this concern about measuring people not
taking an account their actual height or stand I mean
their actual stances and what optically what it's going to
(37:25):
look like. And I know it's been done in the
minor leagues. I don't know enough about this, but these
are the questions I have.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I'm gonna be naive here and tell you the endgame
here is to make sure that the egregious bad call
does not change the outcome of game. That was the
the impetus I think for getting calls right on the basis,
you know, even going back to the near no hitter
of Galarraga. But I think you make a good point, Joe.
(37:50):
You can get carried away with this. So I'm just
hoping that the end game is not a full blown
robo Every pitch is called by a robo umpire, but
with limited challenges. Save them for the key moments and game.
You know that three to two pitch with the bases loaded,
that can really change the outcome of a game. That's
an obvious blown call. You I everybody at home can
(38:11):
see it. Get that one right. I'm okay with that.
And I think there's actually part of this, Joe, is
actually fan engagement, because I've been at spring training games
where the challenge is put up there on the board
and people really respond to it. They do. They get
a kick out of seeing something revealed in real time
to them. You've seen it before for years and years
(38:33):
of tennis with the Hawkeye system. So it's always a
good question to ask, Joe, where is it going, right,
because something that starts out really well can get carried
away if you put too much faith in technology. I
like the system the way it is now, and our
fans shouldn't remember that it's not being used during the
regular season this year. Most likely implemented next regular season.
(38:56):
But from what I've seen in spring training, Joe, I
like what's happening now, And yes, I do worry that
it expands to something more. But if they can keep
it within these guardrails, I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
But the three to two count could be the first inning, right,
the three two count the bases though it is, it
could be you know, that's because right and if you
are right, do you get to retain this challenge or
does it just go.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
You only get two yes, so you could keep that
in a perpetuity.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Only get two that are okay, so you could like
you could actually have nine during the course of the game.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Ten during the course of the game. You could okay
with that.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Now I could tell you the minor leagues the hit
rate on getting those challenges right, it's about fifty to
fifty the same as it is on the basis right
now the major leagues.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
And again, who you're going to permit to to make
these calls? I know, I guess the catcher is a
popular part of this, or should be.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
You can catch your hitter, that's it. You can't look
to the dugout and it has to be done immediately.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Right, And so I wouldn't rely on the picture at all.
I mean, there's so much emotion there, Joe.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
The other day, I saw a hitter challenge an oh
pitch in the first inning and he was wrong. There
you will as a manager, that will drive you nuts.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I mean, don't you have to like eliminate those that
are not permitted to challenges based on their history of
always bitching a complaining.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I mean, there's all that.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
And how about the time the catcher chooses because I
had heard that the pitcher was not going to be permitted,
or the teams are trying to keep him out of
it because he's too emotional in regards to whether the
pitcher is a ball or a strike. But my concern
there would be that the catcher, if that were the
case of the catcher chooses to not challenge the pitch
it was a ball. After the thing's over, they found
(40:35):
out that it was a strike, and all of a
sudden you have this potential argument between a pitcher and
the catcher based on whether we challenge it or not.
There's there's all kinds of little built in here that
I think, of course, he got to play through it
over course of time and we'll find the conclusion. They're
going to find tune it. I get all that, But again,
we're in starch of perfection all the time, and I've
(40:57):
always unized to tell I should tell Troy Glossi all
the time in the before the game, is at his
seat in the clubhouse, or sometimes during the course of
the game. Perfection is a boring concept, it really is.
I mean, if we arrive at perfection, why do it?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
What's the point here?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
But if everything has to be perfect all the time,
I think we always have to be seek to be perfect.
I don't like machines, this continually subtracting passion from.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
The game and just pure.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
We're waiting on this thing to tell us whether we
were right or wrong, and then we accept it blindly.
And that's it, because now the emotion is gone from
all of this. We're subtracting passion and the emotion constantly.
The more engagement we get from technology, those human qualities
go away. And to me, that was a big part
of why you're in the digout and why you love
the game so much.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Well, just to put a kicker on our Eddie Goodell's
story here, he passed away in nineteen sixty one and
there was one baseball person who came to his funeral,
which was in Chicago, and that was the picture who
walked him. Bob Kane drove three hundred miles from Cleveland
to Chicago to be there to say goodbye to Eddie Goodell.
(42:10):
Now Bill Veck did send flowers, wasn't able to make
it there, But I thought that was just a cool
kicker to the story that you know it was ten
years later. Bob kin and like Frank Soche, was just
tied to this event, no matter what else he did
in his career, more than anything else, wanted to go
say goodbye to again. If you look at the photograph.
(42:31):
You haven't seen him before. I don't know where you've been,
but it's one of the most famous photographs in baseball history.
The catcher on his knees and Eddie Goodell, as you mentioned,
Joe and his crouch at the plate. Couldn't be possible
something like that in today's game. So that's Frank Soche
died at the age of ninety eight, was the batter
who gave up his at bet for one of the
(42:53):
most famous pin hitting appearances in baseball history. That's what
I want to talk about next, Joe, and we're to
take a quick break. Here is a manager and of
course subject near and dear to your heart, managers and salaries.
We have a new top salary among managers. We'll talk
about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(43:25):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. And Joe probably
heard and saw Dave Roberts of the LA Dodgers finally
signed his contract extension. He's only just done a terrific
job for the LA Dodgers, won a couple of World championships,
but he did leap Craig Council as the highest paid
manager in baseball history. Craig Council had a five year,
(43:48):
forty million dollars deal from the Cubs, and Roberts has
gone above that at an average annual value of eight
point one million dollars. Well deserved. It's not a surprise, Joe.
I think we all knew that once that Council contract
was signed at Dave Roberts, with a World championship or
two under his belt, was going to surpass him. And
he has. The salaries haven't moved all that much, certainly,
(44:11):
not like players. But what was your reaction when you
heard about this deal for Dave Roberts.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Very happy, very happy for David. The right thing to
do kind of stuff. I mean, obviously, they've been at
the top of the industry for several years now. Even
when they don't win the final game of the season,
they're still in position to win the final game of
the season. I know Dave pretty well. I really enjoyed
working against him. We had some really good conversations. He's
(44:36):
very polished, he handles things really well, with a real
human touch about him. I think he speaks passionately and
directly regarding whatever the topic might be. I'm not been
with him in an actual clubhouse situation with his players,
but I would believe that it's an easy conversation that
he has with all the guys there as well as
(44:56):
his coaches in the front office. He's a great conduit
to everything that happens out there. There's a lot going
on being a manager of the Dodgers, and that's and
all the aboves, so I'm really happy for him.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
He loves wine too. I think he's got his own.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
A bottle of vineyard or I think it's red Seam,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Oh yeah, that's right. Red seem very good. So anyway,
I'm very happy for all that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
For David.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
He's he's a wonderful guy and absolutely if anybody deserves
to be the highest paid manager, he does.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, listen, I mean the Dodgers, we all know about
their talent and their resources, but don't short change his
abilities as a manager. I think he's as good as
there is. He's a connector people like to be around
Dave Roberts, right. But at the same time, Joey, you
know this, he's got a really strong competitive streak in him.
(45:45):
You know, don't get on his bad side. You know,
he's got an edge to him when he needs it,
and he doesn't have to show it when it's not necessary.
But the biggest thing for me is the guys trust him.
You know, he's a very just an honest, nice human
being that people like being around and players like to
play for him. So good for Dave Roberts. It is
well earned.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah, price publicly criticized privately, I think he does that well.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
He'll show his emotion on the bench during a good moment.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
In the bad moments, he'll just give you that stern look,
but you're not really seeing an over reacting negative kind
of influence for the group on the bench because everybody's
always looking at the manager in both good and bad times,
especially in the bad time. So I think he wears
it well. I think he handles it well. And again
I'm very happy for him and Andrew. I mean, Andrew's
stepping up. The whole group stepping up and doing that
(46:36):
for him. I know when he first came on board
there there was like other people that there being promoted,
such as I think Gay Kapelaer was, and eventually they
stuck with David.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It was a great decision.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, how about Andrew Friedman. By the way, the Dodgers.
They had won three straight division titles under Don Mattingly
when Andrew made the move to Dave Roberts, you know,
trying to get them deeper in the postseason. Pretty good
track record, I would say for mister Andrew Friedman, hiring
Joe Madden and Tampa Bay and Dave Roberts and with
the LA Dodgers, I mean, it's it's what to me, Joe,
it's one of the underrated parts of being a president
(47:12):
baseball operations, general manager, you name your title, was finding
the right person to lead your team, someone you can
work with, and more importantly, some of the players can
work with. That's those are two home runs for Andrew Friedman.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Acquisitional process, that's that's what they he does so well.
I actually sit with Andrew all the time and we
would talk about players whatever, and I say, I'd always
tell him, you're a good scout. You know that you're
a really good scout. Because he was a young man,
younger than me obviously, and he would just break people down,
break players down. And I was really impressed with his
(47:45):
acumen having not done pro ball, you know, never did
the big leagues as a player whatever. Like a lot
of guys haven't. But the way he spoke and the
way he saw things. I was always impressed with that.
He's always had that gift, so you know, I was
fortunate to be part of that also. But yeah, he's
really at that go from Tulane all the way up
(48:05):
where he started out. I though his mom really well barbed.
I mean, this is it's a lot of good stuff
going on there. He's very grounded, almost shy. Sometimes it
looks like he's becoming more of an introvert lately, but
he was always really good at player evaluation. I've always
used to tell him that back in the day.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Congratulations to Dave Roberts, one of the good guys in
the game and certainly one of the best managers. With that, Joe,
and ask you to take us home. What do you
got for us to end this episode of the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Really again touches on everything we've been talking about today
a little bit. The truth and what is the truth then?
And then how do you decipher in your own minds?
I would the truth actually is it's such a controversial subject.
There's when we were growing up, there was the truth,
and there was there was not truth. There lies, but
it's such a gray area anymore. And this comes from
(48:55):
Andy Rooney from the old sixty Minutes stays, and he
might have gotten his somewhere else, but he was pretty
interesting to follow on a weekly basis on sixty minutes.
But people will generally accept facts as truth only if
the facts.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Agree with what they already believe.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
And I think that happens to all of us, and
I really try to guard against that with my own opinions.
Like we were talking, whenever we talk here, I really
try to keep it as pure as I possibly can,
and I think I do.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I've done.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
We're talking about scouting and Andrew Rees in the last
moment here, But as a scouter, as somebody that's running
a minor league system, which I did for a while,
I mean, you have to really set aside your personal
opinions whether you like somebody or not, to really drill
down and find out whether you think he's good or
not at this particular game. Too many times I would
see coaches, you know, managers in the minor league meeting
(49:49):
where they would permit their their evaluation of the player
be influenced by whether they liked him or not, not,
whether he was a good player or not, whether it's
two's plate or not, and that always bothered me. So
I really try to divorce myself from my personal feelings
about whatever when you ask me opinion on we're talking
baseball right now, a player's opinion on a player, or
(50:12):
what I think in general. So you have to really
kind of be able to separate your own personal worries,
what do I believe in? What are my truth for
what you're actually seeing out there, and really leave the emotion,
put the emotion aside. So I think that's what Rouney
was talking about, and I think that's the best. I mean,
if you're going to run a minor league system, and
(50:32):
of course the major league system, but that was my
grandest tenant, was to really try to keep the emotion
out of it, keep your likes and dislikes out of it,
and really bore down to the basics of what are
we seeing, What do the five tools look like?
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Does he have the kind of makeup you know? Is he.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Motivated? Is he not motivated? What was his work ethic
look like? These are the things that really mattered, not
whether or not you liked the guy or not, because
you might have weren't an airring, or you don't like
the way where it's hair, something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, that's really why advice, I think in any line
of work, not just baseball. I mean you're telling listen,
we're all human beings, right, we all have these unconscious biases,
and I think what you're talking about is being aware
as much as you can of those biases, right, and
not just let them go unchecked. And I think it's
great advice, especially when you're talking about either scouting or
(51:24):
player analysis, player evaluation, to kind of check those biases
that naturally you have as a human being.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
There was Nelson Demil novel I used to read all
I read most of Nelson demials. It was about the
Vietnam War. I'm trying to remember exactly the title, but
it was about the Meli massacre and years after following
the leader, the platoon leader of that group comes to
(51:51):
be coming to court martial. They're going to court martial
him and as opposed to the members of the platoon
who actually committed the atrocities whatever.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
But it comes down to the point that at the.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
End of the day, the platoon leaders, guys, is the
person that's going to be let go as opposed to
the platoon if in fact the methods of the organization
on fall. That was my way to describe it to
the coaches and the managers. Listen, you might always agree
with this, but at the end of the day, if
your players are not developing, if they're not getting better,
(52:26):
if they're not whatever their organizational policies, rules and regulations are,
if they're not being upheld, then they're not going to
go after the individual players of the platoon, always going
to go after the platoon leader. And I would try
to get them to understand that in regards to like
we just talked about, really, regardless of your perception of
truth is keep your emotion out of it. Really try
(52:49):
to understand exactly what am I seeing right here and
react from there, but always keeping in mind whatever the
tenants are of this group, they have to be adhere to.
And as the platoon leader, you're the guy that's going
to be in trouble as opposed to the platoon.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
It so, I gotta admit I didn't have the Vietnam
War my Bengo card for today's episode of the Book
of Joe, But that's why I say it's the most
interesting baseball podcast on the planet. You never know where
we will go. Yeah, another good one, Joe, thanks a
lot
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Thanks brother, See you later, man.
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