December 19, 2023 • 51 mins
Host Bryan Ford is joined by Chef Michael Carter AKA Chef Mike. Known locally as “The Flavor Regulator,” Mike is the Executive Chef at Down North Pizza in North Philadelphia. Mike started his chef journey as an inmate in prison, selling improvised meals to his fellow detainees. Now he runs his own restaurant as part of the Down North Foundation, which provides jobs and resources to the formerly incarcerated. Mike’s restaurant has established itself as a cornerstone of the community with its events and free meals, and the thoughtful eye towards history and local culture on display in its cuisine and decor. Join Chef Mike and Bryan for a very special episode of The Flaky Biscuit as they enjoy one of Mike’s favorite meals, chicken and dumplings.
Watch Bryan make his version and Subscribe: Youtube
Recipe from today's episode can be found at Shondaland.com
Join The Flaky Biscuit Community: Discord
Chef Mike IG: @coolhandmiz
Bryan Ford IG: @artisanbryan
Check Out the Down North Foundation at www.downnorthfoundation.org
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Flakey Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome to Flaky Biscuit, where each episode we're
cooking up delicious morsels of nostalgia. These are meals and
recipes that have comforted and guided our guests to success.
(00:20):
We really want to dive in and understand how this
familiarity with food has forged a path forward, not just
for a successful career, but for real change in our communities.
I got to tell you something right now. That line
has never resonated so strongly at Flaky Biscuit because our
guests today from Philadelphia, we drove down to Philly to
(00:41):
visit a very talented chef also known as the flavor regulator,
you know what I'm saying, like regulating some of the
flav He's the executive chef at Down North Pizza in
North Philly, and he's on a mission to staff the
operation with only formally incarcerated people. An exceptional human being
and exceptional chef. Please welcome Mike Carter.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're just
too kind.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't know you might be the kindest person in
the room here. When I said that that line resonated,
probably the strongest ever resonated. You know why. Yeah, And
I feel I'm getting chilled because I'm realizing how powerful
your story is.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Thank you. We definitely like to push that community line.
And one out of three people in my community is
on parole or has had some type of relationship with
the car Serles system. So like my mother has three sons,
so statistically, I'm the son that was the statistic right
that actually goes to the penitentiary. And like most of
(01:45):
the people I grew up with, they've been to the
penitentiary and back our fathers, Like I didn't walk the
yard where it was three generations the guys like we're
talking about grandpop, son and grandson all in the same yard.
So I don't think people really understand how the carceral
system actually affects America. It's the third biggest employer in
(02:05):
our country. Wow. Once the coal mining jobs stop, you know,
the oil, the steel jobs with the day Deal, they
build penitentiaries and all these little podunk towns that basically
lost their industry. What we do at down North Pisa
where a mission based for profit restaurant, and our mission
is that we exclusively hire formally incarcerated people individuals return
(02:30):
as citizens to impact the recidivism rate.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Wow, I've never been so excited to speak with someone
about such deeply meaningful work within a community, because I'm
thinking to myself, like, how fortunate I am to be
able to talk about my pizza and my dough and
my bread. But you're doing the same thing, and you're
also changing the lives of people who might not have
another chance to do something like this. We're going to
(02:56):
dive into that a lot more deeply, all right, But
before we get into that, you know what I'm saying,
the bone chilling stuff. You came here and you asked
me to make a nostalgic meal for you. That's what
flaky biscuits all about. So why don't you tell my listeners,
tell our listeners what is the nostalgic meal that you
have me prepare?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And why I asked you to make chicken and dumpling?
Because the day that we actually scheduled our podcast was
my grandmother's birthday, and without her, me or my younger brother,
we probably would have went off on a whole different
trajectory of life like I did. But I kind of
got it together, but with it being her birthday, I
(03:37):
just remember I'm an outside kid, right, you know what
I mean? So like I'm that kid that when the
street lights came in, like when your mom told you
to come in, I'm like, dang, you really gonna go in?
Like come on, we out here, you know what I mean.
But I remember going inside of the house once everybody
else was inside of the house, and my grandmother having
that chipping and dumplings in the pot, and it's just
(03:57):
it's one of us. The weather, it's the season, and
it warms you up, and it's like who don't like
chicken and biscuits? And oh like who don't like that?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's like the perfect Yeah, it really is probably the
perfect comfort food, even more perfect because your grandma was
making it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I wish you had have told me that your grandma
made it.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Now in my head, I'm like, man, no pressure, it
ain't gonna be even no pressure. No pressure, because that's
a different way no pressure. When was the first time
you had it, Like do you remember was there a
moment you had it where you were like, oh damn,
like taking it back and it kind of just became
part of your comfort.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I definitely was like a juvenile. I was probably around
like ten years old that I actually started actually paying
attention to food because I got grandmother that can actually
throw all the way down. And I got this grandmother.
She had a couple different dishes that she was just
nice at. This was one of those dishes that she's
(04:55):
nice at. It. I don't want it from nobody else,
or like this is the standard, you know what I mean?
Like as I grow up with her being going, it's
like it doesn't matter whose it is. It's like I
remember her that travel back in time and actually remember
where you come from, like the good times. And you know,
like people always say, like you shouldn't wish to grow
(05:16):
up so fast. When I used to want to be
an adult, but now that I'm an adult, it's like
I want to be a kid again. So yeah, chick
and dumplins is very special to me.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Have you ever tried to recreate it or do you
ever make it for yourself?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
No? I don't. That's why when you I looked you
up and all the stuff that you do, I'm like,
oh man, so he liked to go there. I'm like,
all right, I'm gonna give him a challenge. You know
what I mean, nothing that I knew you would. I
knew you were the roots to the occasion. Yeah, I
mean it's like you are the baking guy, you know
what I mean. Like I say, you got the biscuits
at Tatyana. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Definitely know how to throw down you never sure. I
actually love doing it this way right. I don't know
that much about it, but I got a little bit
out of you. I think he told me, I'm gonna
pull up the text. Hold on, I'm gonna pull.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Up the text of what we said. Let's go. You
just said chicken and dumpling, and I was like great,
and you asked me anything special about it. I'm like spicy.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Like a few days later, I was like sitting on
the couch and I was like, man, hold up, let
me I need a little bit more. Sometimes I don't
get a little more. Sometimes I get just like a
line and I gotta roll with it. And you said
always from scratch, spicy, very filling, comforting exactly, and that's
all I needed to know. Where I was like, Okay,
I think I could bring this to the next level.
(06:34):
And you know, I don't make chicken and dumplings often.
I don't know if I've ever made it until right now,
to be honest with you. I mean I've had it,
thought about it, but I don't know if I've ever
really made it or dissected like what it is. Do
you know, are you familiar with like history of chicken
and dumplings.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
No, I'm not really familiar with the history. I just
know that it has two of my favorite things chicken,
and it's like like two different things that I can't
live without. Like sometimes you ever meet somebody and they're like,
I don't like that, and it's like what you don't
like about it? The name or something, because you eat
this and you eat that, and it's just a marriage
(07:12):
of it.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I mean, I eat chicken every day in different forms.
I love chicken, and I know that chicken is widely
consumed by people in this country. Chicken used to be
a delicacy, which now then we got all the mass
produced chickens, so we got that. You ever drove through Delaware, Delaware, Delaware,
all them factories, man, so it's not not so much
(07:34):
the delicacy no more. But back you know, over the
course of the twentieth century, combination of stewed chicken and
rolled dumplings kind of became sort of taking on localized names,
you know, chicken and pastry, North Carolina ultimately chicken and dumpling.
And some people do different types of dumplings. Some people
do the drop biscuit, some people do an actual layered
flaky biscuit. You know what I'm saying. Okay, So that's
(07:56):
what I kind of did, a hybrid because sometimes you
don't want to overcomplish cake what should be simple. And
the thing about flaky r biscuits is that is cold
layered butter and a hot oven is what makes the
flaky layer. So if you think about when you cook
chicken and dumplings, that might not translate. So I thought
maybe that maybe the non layered buttery drop biscuit would
(08:16):
worked better because it'll stew with the mixture and kind
of turned soft. Okay, So that was the approach I took.
You know, we read about chicken and dumplings. I was
in my brain like, okay, I've had it before, thick.
Maybe a roue pulled chicken could be legg could be thighed,
could be breast. I opted to go with breasts today
because the corner store, this whole, a little hippie, dippy
(08:37):
little shop, only had the organic breast. I would have
liked to do a hybrid of some dark meat and
white meat, because I think that would have given it
more flavor.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'll last.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So what I did is I just boiled it straight,
shredded the chicken breast. And you told me about spicy,
So I was like, okay, I brought with me some cayenne,
some Tony's straight out of New Orleans. You already know
it's right behind you. Season some garlic powder, some salt,
some pepper. So I saute the shredded chicken breast with
some butter and those seasonings in the pot over here
(09:10):
where the mixtures actually are right now. Some butter, some carrots, onions, garlic, celery.
Let those sweat. Then I had some chicken broth warming
up behind it, getting all sizzledly, getting all bubbly. I
added some stone ground whole grain flour to the mixture
(09:30):
to create the room, because I was like, if I'm
gonna make a room, I might as well use the
best possible flour I can. So I brought some of
that shit with me. You know what, I'm saying, mixed
up the flour, added the chicken broth. Then I added
the cream, because you know, it's like you were talking
about that thick, creamy comforting chicken and dumplings opted to
go with heavy cream. After I added the heavy cream,
(09:50):
I mixed it up. I let it simmer. I added
the peas frozen peas. Was there peas in your Grandma
Chicken and the Dublins?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It was like a nice pop pole you hear me?
Like situation, but it was like in the soup. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So I opted to make more of a dumpling dumpling,
and I melted the butter stone ground flour, milk, salt,
a little sugar because I was like, I'm gonna put
this on top of this mixture and then it's gonna kind.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Of steam to cook it.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So with the flaky layer, cold butter biscuit, you want
the pop up hot oven. And I was like, this
is a different ballgame. This is like steam in the biscuit.
So I made a dumpling like that, and I'm about
to serve it to you right now. Hey man, let's
get it.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Would you like.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Something as well? I gotta serve everybody, all right, you
want something too bad, I gotta bead, sit down and
hold your post. All right, all right, so the moment
has come. You've been served chicken and dumplings. I need
all the deeps. Man, What do you see? What do
you smell?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I see celery, I see some nice carriages. I see
some peas, I see these husky pieces of chicken. I
see the biscuit. It's like nice and creamy, looking like
it's not see through. You're not opake. It's like we're rich.
You ready to get in? Yes, I am. Let's do it.
Let's go, let's go, let's go. Oh have spice. Right there?
(11:08):
You did it, man, this strawing slamming.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm hungry too.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So you asked me, did I ever attempt to make
it myself? I never attempted to make it myself. But
it used to be a brand when I was a
kid called Glory. You remember glory in the can? Glory.
I used to have glory greens, Glory yams. It was
like a soul food. They sold it in the market,
and they had it chicken and dumplings. It wasn't my
(11:35):
man minds, but it was something I could open the
can and I could like, spice it up myself, make
it for myself. So like that's the closest I ever
been to. This's like, thank you, bro. Like this strawing
is slamming, man, I did this for you. I mean,
I'm gonna clean my plate. Shit. This is definitely that
type type of business. Are you seeing the whole grain
(11:57):
flower in there? Listen, bro, you stepped on this. What's
the green right here? Parsley Parsley heard.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It wasn't time because it looked too big, and it
wasn't the peat or the celery, so it was definitely
the Parsley.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I put you down real cheffy and like dice some
kale up or something. No thing. Man.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Like one time I was making some po boys for
somebody in Miami. I was trying to open a concept.
This dude was an investor.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
He was like, oh po boys, oh in Miami. Be great.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
That made me some po boys And I was like,
all right, I'm gonnat some po boys made the bread
because you already know, I get down and I made
it real fried catfish, lettuce, hotouse, tomato, mayo pickle. Like
it was slamming. It was a good boy. He was
eating it, you know, he was there with some people
and I was cooking right in front of him, and
they were like, okay, great, great, great. By the way,
(12:48):
I just had to pause my story. Clean plate club
has been achieved. Clean plate club has been achieved. We
about to get seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, this was good.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
They regrouped. They walked me outside and the guy was like,
you know, I really thought you were gonna wow me.
And I was expecting to see some kind of like
housemade aoli or you know, maybe some mixed greens instead
of that iceberg lettuce and maybe some da da da.
I was like, I'm making you a po boy, not
a rich boy.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And they don't get it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I'll never forget that moment. He had no clue how
to even respond to that shit because he don't even
know what the history of it. So dud with money
who was like, oh, look at this lebron guy making
something cool. Let's turn it into a concept. And I'm like, no, dog,
I'm making you a po boy, not a rich boy.
And that's to my point.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Ko.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, I used some stone groundhole grain flower for the dumpling,
but and I want to I want to know your
thoughts on that. I think it just gives like a
little bit of oof that's a little different, but not
enough to where it just changes everything about the dynamics.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
You know, I feel like this right here, the stone
brown flower actually gave it like that little step of
against it. Now instead of like ten dollars on the may,
we can go for that extra you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Hungry for more flaky biscuit, stay tuned? All right, All right,
let's just jump back in my listeners. Bridget myself were
(14:24):
wondering did I bring you back though to your grandma house?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And if not, where did I bring you? I feel
like you might have brought me back, but actually on
the elevated tip, my grandma ain't using no stone ground flower. Yeah,
I mean so it was like but like I told you,
like I'm already in that space today because it's her birthday.
So like I'm highly appreciative of you actually making this
(14:50):
meal for me, and it exceeded my expectations. It got the.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Hotness coming spice levels always tricky.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I grew up with hot sauce on the table like
in my house. Like this might sound crazy, right for breakfast,
we when we had grits, your your age, your bike
and We used to put hot sauce on our grits, right,
and we also like have apple sauce, so like I
used to mix the apple sauce with my grits, a
little hot sauce on it. It's like kind of crazy,
you know what I mean, But like that's what they
did in my house.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
No, but it makes sense because it'll neutralize a little,
it'll cut it'll cut the heat out, and it'll also
add a little sweetness.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Exactly. It's like hot honey. That's basically hot honey.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What you're describing in a way where you got some
apple that's perade sweetness and some heat exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So even like with the Flavor Regulator, right when I
decided to name my company Flavor Regulator, it was always
about I go places and I'm like, hey, this is good,
but maybe if it had a little bit more Like
I try to infuse flavor and as many places as
I can without it being overwhelming. Even with you, like
when you said with the biscuits, You're like, yeah, I'm
(15:53):
gonna use this flower because I know it could elevate
it just a little bit more, but you don't want
to overdo it and have it be like maybe he
don't like it. A rich boy A rich boy, Yeah,
that's great. So what actually makes a po boy? Oh shit, Yeah,
I'm interested in that question because I can tell you
it's so many fake Philly cheese steaks out here.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And that's the question I had for you. I was
gonna get to you know, this is a special episode, man,
it's not. It's not often that Guess will ask me
a question like that. It was Nope, So I'm gonna
be real. A po boy is several things. First, we
got to start with sandwiches, right, because every part of
the world has a distinct sandwich culture, and definitely, when
you're from a part of the world, you think your
(16:36):
sandwich is better than other sandwiches. So like I think
po boys is exceptional. I'm not gonna say it's the
holy Grail of sandwiches, but like you know, I had
a cheese steak, I had a chopped cheese, and it's
no disrespect I love chopped cheese. But a po boy
hits so much different because of the way it's flavored
and fried and not da da da da a shrimp
po boy. Right, It's all about the spice level and
(16:57):
the way something's fried you gotta have or a roast
beef po boy. But your roast beef gotta be a
real roast beef. It can be sliced. And this is
what I'm saying. Like you said fake Philly cheese seak.
You go to New Orleans, you got a roast beef
po boy and you see it's like sliced roast beef.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Na.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I don't want to I want the debris. I want
a real chunk of beef that was roast. You know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And then and.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
On that menu, you got a debris po boy, which
is French fries with the roast beef, debris, Mayo, hot
house tomatoes, Chris Iceberg lettuce. The bread is the star
to show them. The po boy bread is not replicated
anywhere in the country. Now.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
You could say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
About like a Kaiser roll or a bagel, Like there's
different breads in the world that aren't replicated. And the
reason why is because you got a concentration of people
who specialize in that bread in that part of the world.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So in New Orleans we got people that make po
boy French bread.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Colonization, it's all about the colonies and who colonized what
so French cats.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So number one, it has to be on French bread.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
French bread, and the way you make it not to
get too deep milk or milk powder. Maybe a little
rice flour, brown rice flour if you want to get
a little more fermentation. But the rice flower is gonna
add to that structure and stability to the bread. The
milk is going to add that creaminess and sturdiness to
hold the toppings, some sugar for the color, and to
make the top crackle. The top has to shatter when
(18:25):
you bite into powar read, it has to shatter a
little bit. To the point is there's a lot of
layers in sandwiches, even if it's like, oh, it's just
like six ingredients, but like what goes into a po
boyd thing. And this is my personal opinion, it's very special.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I get it because in Philadelphia, so I didn't been
in places. So I was just in Kuwait a couple
months ago, right, and the guy there I went out
there to get with, he took us to a fully
cheese steak place in Kuwait, and I'm like in Kuwait
and I'm like, shit, it's not it And was not it.
It's not it because first and foremost is about the role.
(18:59):
It has to be on that iron roll. It's a
famous company called Amoroso's here this is the home Amorosos.
So it's like, listen, we gotta start with that Italian
lot of times. It comes from the city where it's
at the water. We got to talk about that water.
You understand, it's not the same wherever you're doing it.
And then they had letters and tomatoes on it, and
(19:19):
it's like, this is a cheese steak, Hoki, this is
not a cheese steak.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
So what is a cheese steak?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
To me? A cheese steak is an Italian role from
Philadelphia and you have to have shaved ribbi. Like it's
just about that cutting meat too, because like no, no,
because like these guys like it's certain places they got
the super tough meat or the steak thems and it's
like right, who wants to lose their teeth trying to
eat this? Like come on, like this show gotta be right,
(19:48):
and the's simpler the better, Like it's really about that
role and the meat and whatever you decide to put
on your cheese steaks, see me, I like Cooper Shark,
Cooper sharp fried onions. You gotta get fried onions. Like,
if you're not putting onions on that, it's not a
fully cheese steak. Like I don't know nobody from fully
that don't get fried Okay, but I love Cooper Shark
(20:10):
the creaming and stuffing, you know what I mean. But
in my younger days it was I was a provolone
kind of guy. Yeah, and I do barbecue sauce and mayo.
Oh damn ship. So I hate Ketchup Okay, I feel
like Ketchup is for children.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh damn, I love Ketchup.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Said, I love Ketchup. He said, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna
tell you the truth. Right, we know it's Ketchup and
barbecue sauce. So I feel like, let's get some sophisticated,
good good barbecue. I mean, I like sweet Baby Rais
sweeping Rais got the hood in the coba clutch, like
the spicy sweet Baby Rais got the hood in the
copa clutch. Like if I go into your kitchen and
(20:47):
you don't have that spicy sweet baby raised, I'm like,
what are you doing? Big game? Yeah, like what are
you doing?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And we're pulling up I'm like, honestly, it's like awful
and a little too sweet for you.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But it is. But it's it's my it's a guilty pleasure.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I gotta say this, man, like maybe I am a
child because, like everyone I talked to about ketchup. I
did this podcast with David Chang called Recipe Club. I
did this one recipe with him and his boy Chrissy,
and they were vibing with what I did, And as
soon as I mentioned ketchup, bro, they started just straight
shitting so many different things.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You could do.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I know, I look, I know that, but ketchup is great.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I won't take this away. Ketchup and French fries, Yeah, man,
that's a great marriage. This is Philadelphia. It's the home
of Hers potato chips, right Hers. Yeah? You ever had
ketchup chips?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
In Canada, Yeah, Philadelphia. You know Hines come from Pittsburgh,
that's the other side of Pennsylvania. Yeah, but they had
the Hers ketchup chips with the Hines ketchup. And that's
the thing. Another thing, would ketchup? It gotta be hinds
to me. When I was a kid, if I went
over your house and you had hunts ketchup. I'm like,
it's off brand. I can't do that. That's why I
was always a barbecue sauce guy, because it's like, oh
(21:59):
he got hunts. No, No, I can't do that. That's
like Sam's Choice cola.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I don't know if you're read Sam's Choice, but it's
like you ain't even got real coke, Like I ain't
even drinking that, or like Arcy cola or some shit
you got that. I don't think I've ever had a
proper cheese steak. I went to the to the bullshit
tourists the first my first time in Philly. I don't know,
all right, they put the wiz on it. I don't
know how you feel about that, and I thought it
(22:24):
was fine. The meat was dry. It felt like it
was just sitting in a chafing dish and just like
you know, drying out.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But you went to one of them. I went to
one of them.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's like it's like if you went too like Bourbon
Street and got a po boy or something like, you
might do it because you don't know, and you're in
the middle of the.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
City, the place with the bright lights. We don't do
that in Philly, so where do we go? I got
a trifecta. It depends on what part of town I'm in.
Where I'm from. I grew up on Gym's West Okay
on sixty second Street. It was black people working in
it for years, but now it's black on West Philly
sixty second Street. They got it. If I'm in South Philly,
(23:02):
I'm gonna do Angelo's on ninth Street. It's right by
the Italian Market Angelo. Yeah, you even said it. It's
for real. They got the Italian bread with the seeds
on it and everything like they go yeah, yeah. And
if and if we're uptown, like towards like where my
shop is at. My shop is in North Philly. So
the closest good cheese stake place is Delasandro's. Always with onions.
(23:26):
When your shits, you just gotta pick what cheese you want.
My mature taste. Buzz love Cooper Shark, I love that man.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
We definitely gonna I might have to come pull up
and pop up or some shit down here. We're gonna
have to reconnect. But the listeners want to know a
lot of things about you. I want to know a
lot of things about you. More specifically, I want to know.
How did you get started in food? Clearly you're a smart,
sharp chef. You clearly know a lot about flavor profiles.
You speak with a lot of passion when it comes
(23:52):
to different types of food.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
How did you get here? I got started in food
way young, like in my grandma's skirt, so you know,
like Grandma, it may be a family dinner and she
needs the ques cut up for the mac and cheese. Oh,
I'll do that because I'm steal something too. Yeah, I'm
dimn for that, you know what I mean. But I
have a strong family passion for get togethers. So when
(24:16):
my family came up out of the South, my mother's side,
we went to four different cities up north. We went
to Norfolk, Virginia, Baltimore, Maryland, Philadelphia, and New Haven. And
from that my grandfather and his first cousin, my uncle Harvey,
they started this family reunion and my family would go
(24:38):
from one of those cities every year Labor Day weekend.
So whatever city it's in, they're hosting. So you don't
have to put no money up except for your hotel. Right,
they collecting fees all year like we do this, you'wing
real and if you're not paying your fees, cousin, you know,
like we were looking at you every function, like listen,
(24:59):
pay them fees. Yeah me, because once you get eighteen,
you oh you're ode because we partying together. Yeah, I mean,
and I looked at that like that was a look
into party promoting and like organizing cater ring and so
like the gene was always in us. And then we
got my father's side. We always had family dinners, Like
it doesn't matter what holiday it is, We're going to
(25:21):
go somewhere and have dinner. We're gonna hold hands before
we eat, and we're gonna play board games after we Yeah,
and you know, the age groups are going to break
down and to like y'all be out here, y'all go here. Yeah,
I mean I got to a certain age. I was
in the back of the house with the cousins. Then
fast forward, I started getting locked up. The food sucks
(25:43):
in jail. Oh shit, I guess where the food doesn't
suck It where in the kitchen the officers dining in hall.
They call it the odr A most prisons they call it.
So it's like, you know, they don't eat the same
shit we eat. What did they? Oh they get stanf appreciated.
They get chicken wings, they get faux cheese steaks, you
(26:04):
know what I mean, because they ain't real unless they've
done the right way. They get all types of solids,
you know, like being locked up, you don't even get
solids then, you know, as kids, it's like imagine missing
a solid, you know what I mean. But it's like
they get the good fruit without the bruises on it,
you know what I mean. So my whole thing, like
when I started getting booked, it's like that's where I
(26:25):
can eat at. But I can also hustle because everybody
else hungry too.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh damn.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I can get into this kitchen. I can make a
couple of swags, bring them back to the block. Swags
is anything they was saying. It's a big chicken day.
So I might have a little program running where my
man he gonna stash fifty pieces of chicken fives, right,
and I got him, he breaking them down, taking them
all off the bone. I come in, I get all
the bread, We run that thrown through the toaster. We
(26:50):
start making sandwiches, get the cheese, and then we wrapping
them around ourselves and we smuggling them out the kitchen
back to whatever block you at is on now you
selling sandwiches.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Now that my mind's blown. But my question is what
did you get out of that? Why did you do that?
Because you could have just made a sound for yourself
and moved on with today. Why did you go?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Does it cost to live? It costs to live, like
I seen supplying the men, you know what I mean.
Like it's one thing I know. It's like when you
in there, you still need money to live. That's the
one thing I like to get people to really understand
about this carceral system. It's very predatory because it's not
just praying on me like say, I'm your brother, I
get locked up, right, you got to do that bed
(27:32):
with me if you love me, you know what I mean,
Because now I'm calling home, like, yo, bro, next check.
You think you can float me fifty bucks? Yeah? I
got you now automatically. My brother every month he making
sure he sent me fifty dollars. But if I can
make a way out of no way, out of just
living off the land, that's what they call that, you
know what I mean? I was living off the land.
So it's real rap because people is paying money in
(27:55):
the penitentiary right now for the guy who could smuggle
him some onions and peppers back to the block to
make that romen noodle better flavor, like the things that
we take for granted and near people got a smuggling
out of a kitchen. So I just seen a opening
and I feeled it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Did that also play a part in who you are
as a chef today? Is do you ever draw in
those moments in an inspirational way?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. My guy Sonny, welcome home to him.
He just hit the halfway house. So he likes to
tell everybody like that was my Sully when he used
to make pizza O to romen noodles, and he told
me he was gonna go home and make it shake
and let him tell it like I started down North
pizza up there. All I had was ramen noodles, cheese its.
(28:46):
I used to crush them together a little water. Put
him inside of a chip bag, a potato chip bag.
You know, you move it together with a little water.
Now we flatten it out, flattening it out till it
gets nice and stuff. Let us sit for a little bit,
put a book on top of it. You know, you
got to be ingenuitive. Right, I'm making my oven out
of an extension cord and some fingernail clippers. That's how
(29:07):
I'm boiling water in there.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Let me tell you something right now, I've read books,
met chefs, I've been all this fancy shit. You go
on TV and social media and see all these big
brand guy Gordon rams or whatever. What you're telling me
right now, I think is the real cooking. And you
did it in an environment that not many First of all,
not many people even know about, and not many people
(29:32):
surviving in an environment that was dangerous to you.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So I'm just in awe of your talent.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
You know, you're an executive chef at a pizza company
right now, down with pizza, and you're telling me your
inspiration was from ram and noodles cheese. It's smuggling things
out of a kitchen to the block.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Something, not of nothing. So being in there they make
tattoo guns out of. Take that cassette players. You understand
we don't have pizza sauce, but we got barbecue sauce
and susa, so I'm like, mix them together. That's my sauce.
So I love pizza my whole life. I love making pizza,
(30:11):
and my guy, I'm at our founder. He was like,
I want our pizza to be nostalgic from like the
Ilios when we were kids, you know what I mean.
And even when you had school pizza, remember that that
was paying shit, you know what I mean. So even
in the penitentiary, they when they give you pizza on
certain days, I don't know if they still giving it
up like that, but it's always a paying style pizza.
(30:35):
All I know is that whenever that day happened, whether
it's the penitentiary, you're in school, they both institutions. But
you didn't skip that line. He was there, right or wrong.
If as long as it's pizza, I'm damn for it.
But if y'all doing the mystery meat loaf and all
that up and shit, I might skip that. I keep
my lunch money until we get out of school, and
you might go get it, poor boy where you at? Yeah, man,
(30:55):
I might go go to the poppy store and get
a cheese stick because I'm not eating that, but pizza
that And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Listen, Like you know my work, I'm focused specifically on
Latin American baking, but nothing gonna stop me from making pizza,
pizza content, pizza dough feeding people, pizza people come over
for dinner. Hey, I'm gonna make some sourdo pizza. Pizza
is like a unifier. And I remember at school eating
the little pizzas they came into plastic bag. They would
pop them in some kind of oven. It would come
out all steamy and and wet and actually kind of nasty, but.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Was good now you still but you ate it and
I would eat it right now. Is so familiar.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So you know, you've been in and out of the system.
You've come out to become an executive chef. But I
want to know what was the moment like for you
to reintegrate into And I'm not gonna say some shit
about reintegrating society because like that's a whole different dimension.
I'm sure I'm interested in reintegrating into the ingredient pool.
(31:53):
So when you realize you were, like, I want to
make pizza for a living, you must have felt like
you were in a playground when you started, Oh there's flour,
and you know what I'm saying this, I can do.
Oh there's a mixer, and so like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Walk me through my culinary adventure. Once I left the penitentiary.
My first job outside of the penitentiary working in the kitchen.
I was a short order chef for my mom works
for the electric company, and it was this guy he
had to bid for the electric company. So all the linemen,
those guys coming early in the morning, and I would
make their breakfast, you know what I mean. So like
(32:26):
that's my first stint on the line. Then I ended
up getting knocked. I go away for seven and a
half years. I come back home and my peel was like, listen,
get a job or go to school. I'm twenty seven
at this time, so I'm like, I'm going to school
so i can still play, you know what I mean?
The girls school. Yoh man, I'm going to school. So
I registered at the Art Institute of Philadelphia and I'm
(32:50):
in school now, and it's not all it was cracked
up to be. The only classes that I'm enjoying is
the lab classes. I excelled at Colorinary math because I've
been cutting the measure in my whole life. But other
than that, it's like, I don't want to take this
English class. But I'm always paying attention to these lab
(33:12):
classes because now I'm used to being in the penitentiary
where I got to ask them to let me inside
to walk in, and they staying there over me. And
now I'm in a culinary heaven. I'm like, I'm just
walking in the pantry and I'm like, oh shit, we
got an assignment. And it's like, I can use this.
What is this? I've never seen this shit before, and
(33:34):
I'm experimenting with these different flavors. And I'm at school
being able to come home and actually be in the
side of the kitchen that wasn't policed, right because I
come up in the police kitchen, you know what I mean.
So the knives that we used to have to cut
shit up with, they were tethered to the motherfucking tape,
and so you felt freedom.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Ultimately, all of a sudden you realize what like a
culinary freedom might feel here exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
And I've really it was like, oh I could do this.
So like I got my first job at a catering
company out Phoenixville. It's like a suburb and shout out
to chef Maria Campbell. Always shout her out because she
told me that I was an expert in mass quantity production,
and I freaked my resume and I got a job
(34:19):
and like twenty dollars an hour, let's go. Yeah. I
mean they asked, oh, so where's your previous experience. Oh,
I used to work at SCI Greensburg. Yeah, in the
dietary department. I ain't say I was in me, you
know what I mean, But like once you get me in, like,
I don't know how you are in kitchens, but I'm
big on the demo. I bluffed my way into so
many kitchens. It's like, yeah, this demo it for me.
(34:42):
See that's how I started making my way in these
kitchens out here. So shout out to her. She got
me to help me form a resume that I felt
comfortable enough to pass around and it was up to
me after that to sell myself. So once I'm in
those different kitchens and like you said, freedom, I'm not restricted.
I could actually do whatever I want. And I'm doing
(35:05):
little things outside of the recipe. You know, a recipe
is just a guideline. Like me had a little bit
of this, a little bit of that little and everybody like, oh, yeah,
we want mic on that now. It's like yeah, So,
like I started getting real confident and around the pandemic.
I remember I left this one restaurant I was at
(35:26):
because they wouldn't give me the amount of money that
I thought I deserved. Because it's like a lot of
times when I was in the downtown restaurants, I'm the
black guy, and I'm the black guy that's from the city.
So some people are saying I'm aggressive. They're saying I'm that. No,
I'm just not letting you walk all over me and
say whatever, and you're not going to talk to me
like Gordon Ramsey talks to the people, because like we
can go out back, yeah you know what I mean. Like,
(35:47):
I'm not with none of that shit. So like once
they realized they couldn't control me, but it was actually
good to have me in the kitchen because I actually
got the job done. It was golden. And then the
pandemic hit and I started flavor regulators. Basically, I bought
a smoker and I was on my porch with a
(36:08):
I had a six rated smoker with the hooks, the
sausage hooks, and I'm just smoking me and people walking
by like, yo, you selling that because you know, ain't
nobody outside no more. And I'm like, shit, go to
the restaurant depot, give me a couple of platters. Yet
now I'm selling it. And then out of nowhere, I
got a call. You're the person who meets you check
(36:31):
off all the boxes to be the executive chef for
this spot, because it's one thing to hire guys from
the penitentiary, but it's another thing to hire guys that
could actually run a restaurant. And it was a rap
after that. One thing I liked for people to understand
is I'm not just a piece of chef, you know what
I mean. Pizza made perfect sense because I was going
(36:52):
to be able to actually demonstrate and tell my story
and speak for the voiceless people that are actually still
inside my phone rings. Like if I didn't mute my
phone before I came in here, I would have had
about two three jail calls for my homies. Like they
called me and they tell me, oh what they're doing
in there now? And I'm listening every time because I'm like,
I ain't going back for shit. Keep telling me about it,
(37:13):
because I'm gonna tell the media about the goofy stuff
that's going on in there. So my position at down
North Piece it was like my demonstration because during the pandemic,
everybody was out there protesting for Floyd. Black Lives Matter.
But somebody like me, and like I told you, one
out of three black Americans are on some type of
(37:33):
parole or had some type of experience with the cars
rolls system. It's not a bail fund in America that
could bail me out if I have any contact with
the police. So I couldn't be out there right, No,
that it's automatic locked up. I got kids. I can't
play that shit like I can't go out there. So
like down North has become my demonstration, I'm gonna show
(37:54):
you what it looked like when returning citizens get together.
I tell everybody, we're five. There's at my shot. I
got a bunch of dads that make pizza and trying
to come up. That's it in a in a nutshell
like the Journey, but a lot went into actually developing
this menu at down Nor if I don't have a menu,
(38:15):
I have a track list. Every single one of my
pizzas is a name of a Philadelphia hip hop or
R and B song. Wow. So my top selling pie
is the rock the mic it's bing and I got
that might right exactly. Freeway, Freeway been to the shop.
(38:40):
You know what I mean shout out to him.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Man. Let me say about freeway. Man getting me.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Is the lockers down there, the way and key but
without this drug sh kids and got no way. Yeah,
so like wow. So back to that track list. Hip
hop played a big part of be in the soundtrack
so our Lives when we was out there, so we
definitely wanted to be nostalgic. Even the title of our
(39:06):
shot down North. When you were in Philadelphia. If you're
going to North Philly, you're going to down You're going
down North. It don't matter if you're coming from South Philly,
whether you're coming from Sennay City, but you're going down North.
So with down North being the culture of how we
speak in Philadelphia, the menu had to reflect the culture.
So the rock the mice, that's the beef pepperoni piece.
It's a loud shot. We serve no pork in our shot.
(39:28):
That's my top summing pie and no better love you.
I can't stop kiving you. Remember that. That's the cheese
pie because there's no better love than the cheese. I mean,
but what we do. That's my freaky jowing. That got
a little. That's the meat lovers. That's the pepperoni, beef
sausage that we make salte kale, banana peppers, and the
(39:50):
honey chipotle drizzle on top of it four cheese blend
like you. So I'm getting real freaky with the flavors.
But it's all a soundtrack to fill Philadelphia. I love
the fact that our restaurant has become a destination for
people to actually come from out of town or anywhere
in the city and they be like, yo, oh shit,
(40:11):
you got a flip side one that you're on.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
You what we do, It's an experience, And I think
this is why you're so important, why a lot of chefs,
you know, whether it's Kwame and Tatiana or you know,
it's changing the conception of what an experience should be
or what what is a destination restaurant. You know, like,
if Bordain was alive, will he come He probably won't
come to you, to be honest, for sure. And that's
(40:34):
the new level that we want to bring. It's like
not just your experience and your culture and your upbringing
and everything you've been through. It's the fact that it
is actually a high level eatery at the same time,
and it happens to have maybe Freeways playing in the
background or something like that. Maybe were wearing our new
rags when we walk in and be like, what's up, bro,
And the media doesn't like to let us think that
(40:55):
that can be high level food. We're changing that, you're changing.
We can the cool.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
We're controlling because we always have it. You always straight
like that, and don't ever forget it. When you own
a shop, you can put whoever you won on the wall.
So guess what I got on the wall? All black people?
You know what I mean? I got nothing but his
historic and iconic pictures of Philadelphia. And you ever heard
a move. In nineteen eighty five, our mayor, our first
(41:21):
black mayor, dropped a bomb on an all black neighborhood
in West Philadelphia. And we actually have those pictures on
the wall. Some of them guys, I was locked up
with some of them. Guys were talking about the only
people in the history of this country to go to
jail after that they dropped the bomb on them. Yeah,
you know what I mean, we talking about they did
thirty forty years. When you come into our shop, you
(41:41):
see a picture of sixty two row homes level. So
when they come in and like, yeah, I'm here for pizza,
but like, what's up with that picture on the wall? Oh,
let me tell you something about Philadelphia. This is the
history that I grew up in that rubble, you know
what I mean. They was just putting that neighborhood back together.
I always knew about that. They may come for Pisa,
but they stay for the message and the conversation that
(42:03):
they get, you know what I mean, because it's forgotten
about piece of history in Philadelphia. But if you come
to my shop, you're gonna learn. Man, I just learned.
I'm glad. You're very special, like you're you're very special.
You're me. I can't steal all the time from the grandmother.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
We'll be back after these messages from our sponsors. Welcome
back to Flaky Biscuit. It's very inspirational, the way you
(42:44):
carry yourself, the way your knowledge who's is out of you?
And I can tell that you're going to play? Where
are you going? I mean, what's next?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
What's next? I got a lot, It's so much happening,
and I'm trying to seize every opportunity in front of me.
So oh, we started a restaurant group down North Pisa
North Star restaurant group. Out West is my next project.
So when you're in Philadelphia, you're going to Westville. You're
going out West, a different concept, same mission, only hiring
(43:17):
formally incarcerated. And some people may see that wrong, you
know what I mean? But why would that be wrong?
I feel like I'm trying to let the guys know,
ain't nobody going save us? You a dad, how I'm
a dad, and we gotta take care of these babies,
raise them right my righteousness? You know what I mean.
Ain't nobody gonna help us. There's no magic bullet. It's
(43:42):
you know what I mean, like reparate all that. It's
not happening, bro, not not right now. We got to
be the catalyst. So like I'm encouraging all my guys
that's coming out. I ain't hooked up with so many
different people from different cities, you know what I mean,
that actually went through the penitentiary the same way as
I did, and they got something going in they city,
and they're like, Dad, I never thought about just hiring us. Yeah,
(44:05):
why not? Because people gotta understand, like we are a
forgotten population that is one third of the African American population.
You know what I mean, and I really try to
rehumanize my guys because we're nothing but a bunch of dads.
We go on Father's Day hikes, We've been on Father's
Day camping trips. We go out, they eat as a gang.
(44:27):
I know everybody in my shot kids, and my kids
know that, and that's what we want people to see
outside of like see me as a fucking human being. Yea,
you know what I mean. I'm not what the fuck
I've done, and you done done some shit you just
ain't get caught. But like, let's talk about it, you
know what I mean. I didn't been in the jail
where the rich white kid comeing to jail when all
(44:49):
of a sudden he's the fuck out and it's like,
what his charge is worse than mine? How to fuck
he get out because he knew somebody, you know what
I mean, Like, it don't happen for people on my
side of town. The only people that's going to help us,
it's us. And that's just a message I'm gonna keep
pumping out West coming May June. It's a breakfast sandwich concept,
(45:09):
all right, breakfast and lunch sandwiches Monday through Friday. Then
I'm gonna do a little brunch situation because I got
more seating than I ever imagine. Now, all right, so
like I'm ready to get busy, and like I also
got a program where I'm working with the youth inside
of the Juvenile Justice Center in Philadelphia every Tuesday, I'm near.
I got a cooking class I'm doing every unit. I
(45:30):
get six weeks with them because we also have a
healing garden where they're actually growing their own food, so
it's like a farm to table situation, and then they
actually get to cook the food that they grew with us.
And I'm you know, I'm recruiting. I'm in there, like
who got that culinary blug? Cause like you know, like
I always tell people, if who's to stay, if I
(45:52):
didn't have somebody just pull my coat like a chef, yo, man,
come fuck with me real fast, you know, I mean,
where I would be in my life. So what I'm
trying to do for them kids is what wasn't done
for me when I was going through that system. I
didn't have nobody pointing me towards farm, and I didn't
have anybody pointing me towards like come work in my kitchen.
So even if they don't want to work in our industry.
(46:14):
When you go home, you can help your mom out,
to help your little sister. Yeah, I mean if you're
the oldest, that mean you cooking.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, man, I know all about that.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Man.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
I had to make sure that chicken was ready for
my mom when she got home. Take these shoes off.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
You ain't getting the water with ice, you know what
I'm saying. Yeah, chicken ready. Man in trouble.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
All right, So we're now going to play our flaky game.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Let's go oh shit, I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
No, he's like hung up the damns the game.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
We're playing a game. Let's do it unflin.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
All right, We're going back to the subject of chicken
and dumplings, which of the following are thought to be
one of the earliest versions. Is it a fish, turnip
greens cooked with corn meal, or kwa loop.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I'm gonna have to say the turnip greens with the cormeu.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's a really great answer because it's correct. Turnip greens
and cornmeal dumplings, which, if you think about how you
know proteins were introduced into a lot of areas, like
the first Cuban sandwich, for example, was was really just
it was veggies, so turnip greens serving as kind of
the sustenance of the meal, and then you know, proteins
(47:31):
were introduced.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Well done, Hey, let's go all.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Right, here we go. What is another variation of the
dish chicken and dumplings, haggis neats and tatties, chicken fingers,
or bot boy.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Well, haggis is the sheep's stomach, it is, and teddy potatoes.
So I'm gonna have to say bot boy because I
don't know what that is. Pot boy, My boys a
Pennsylvania Dutch suit.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Involving dough boiled in chicken broth or chicken stock and
it's made with beef hash.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is, all right. Last one,
last one.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
If you have electoraphobia, what are you afraid of? Loose
leaf paper, chicken or bread?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
I'm trying to like use like etymology and stay on
the theme of British. It's going to have to be
chicken is elep chicken.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Electorophobia is an intense, uncontrollable fear of ship.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
So that was what black people have, the fear of phobia.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
People electrophobia have excessive fear and anxiety are on roosters
and hens.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Oh shit.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So when it comes to the down North Foundation, how
can our listeners help out?
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Can we volunteer? Can we donate? Is our website down
North Foundation dot org. We're always doing community events. You
can donate on there, just tap in, shoot us an email.
We're always looking for volunteers. We are really community involved.
So our first year at a restaurant, we did a
free lunch program. I would do like a slice of pizza,
(49:19):
some fries, and a chicken tender and we got people
to this day. I can't wait till the summertime when
y'all giving that because it's like, we gonna keep on
pressing for the neighborhood and we want to just be
that resource. So if you need a job or connect
to anybody anything that you want to do, it's like,
you know, it's nothing like networking. Yeah, so we strive
to be that glue for the community.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Wow, I'm just lord, thanks for coming on, Flaky Biscuit.
My listeners are going to be very thrilled. This episode
is very powerful, very special. I want y'all to go
out there and make sure we're helping the Downlo Foundation.
If you're in Philly, pull up. If you're not in Philly,
get on the website. I'm gonna be out here for
sure doing some kind of collaboration with download. But thanks
for coming on. Flaky Biscuit was an honor to have you.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
And thank you for having me man, thank.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
You, thank y'all so much for listening. I'm beaming right
now having met Chef Mike. You can find the recipe
for the chicken and dumplings on shanaland dot com. And
I want to know how it goes. Apparently I did
okay today, you know what I mean, like being got
the stone ground flowers.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
It's all good.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
You can just use all purpose flour, make a nice dumpling,
melt some butters, make a flaky biscuit.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Do something. Tag me URIs and Brian, tag Chef Mike
at coolm Is, post your photos, your videos, let us
know how you did. You can support the down North
Foundation donate or buy some of their swag at down
North Foundation dot org. All of these handles and links
I've mentioned are in the show notes for the episode.
Like Flakey Biscuits, leave us a shiny five star review.
(50:50):
Make sure you subscribe, like your share, Thank y'all for
the support. Blakey Biscuit is executive produced by Sandy Bailey,
alex Alja, Laura Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collin. Our
creative producer is Bridget Kenna and our editor and producer
is Nicholas Harder, with music by Crucial. Recipes from Flaky
Biscuit can be found each week on Shondaland dot com.
(51:13):
Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel of more Flaky Biscuit content.
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Flakey Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome to Flaky Biscuit, where each episode we're
cooking up delicious morsels of nostalgia. These are meals and
recipes that have comforted and guided our guests to success.
(00:20):
We really want to dive in and understand how this
familiarity with food has forged a path forward, not just
for a successful career, but for real change in our communities.
I got to tell you something right now. That line
has never resonated so strongly at Flaky Biscuit because our
guests today from Philadelphia, we drove down to Philly to
(00:41):
visit a very talented chef also known as the flavor regulator,
you know what I'm saying, like regulating some of the
flav He's the executive chef at Down North Pizza in
North Philly, and he's on a mission to staff the
operation with only formally incarcerated people. An exceptional human being
and exceptional chef. Please welcome Mike Carter.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're just
too kind.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't know you might be the kindest person in
the room here. When I said that that line resonated,
probably the strongest ever resonated. You know why. Yeah, And
I feel I'm getting chilled because I'm realizing how powerful
your story is.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Thank you. We definitely like to push that community line.
And one out of three people in my community is
on parole or has had some type of relationship with
the car Serles system. So like my mother has three sons,
so statistically, I'm the son that was the statistic right
that actually goes to the penitentiary. And like most of
(01:45):
the people I grew up with, they've been to the
penitentiary and back our fathers, Like I didn't walk the
yard where it was three generations the guys like we're
talking about grandpop, son and grandson all in the same yard.
So I don't think people really understand how the carceral
system actually affects America. It's the third biggest employer in
(02:05):
our country. Wow. Once the coal mining jobs stop, you know,
the oil, the steel jobs with the day Deal, they
build penitentiaries and all these little podunk towns that basically
lost their industry. What we do at down North Pisa
where a mission based for profit restaurant, and our mission
is that we exclusively hire formally incarcerated people individuals return
(02:30):
as citizens to impact the recidivism rate.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Wow, I've never been so excited to speak with someone
about such deeply meaningful work within a community, because I'm
thinking to myself, like, how fortunate I am to be
able to talk about my pizza and my dough and
my bread. But you're doing the same thing, and you're
also changing the lives of people who might not have
another chance to do something like this. We're going to
(02:56):
dive into that a lot more deeply, all right, But
before we get into that, you know what I'm saying,
the bone chilling stuff. You came here and you asked
me to make a nostalgic meal for you. That's what
flaky biscuits all about. So why don't you tell my listeners,
tell our listeners what is the nostalgic meal that you
have me prepare?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And why I asked you to make chicken and dumpling?
Because the day that we actually scheduled our podcast was
my grandmother's birthday, and without her, me or my younger brother,
we probably would have went off on a whole different
trajectory of life like I did. But I kind of
got it together, but with it being her birthday, I
(03:37):
just remember I'm an outside kid, right, you know what
I mean? So like I'm that kid that when the
street lights came in, like when your mom told you
to come in, I'm like, dang, you really gonna go in?
Like come on, we out here, you know what I mean.
But I remember going inside of the house once everybody
else was inside of the house, and my grandmother having
that chipping and dumplings in the pot, and it's just
(03:57):
it's one of us. The weather, it's the season, and
it warms you up, and it's like who don't like
chicken and biscuits? And oh like who don't like that?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's like the perfect Yeah, it really is probably the
perfect comfort food, even more perfect because your grandma was
making it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I wish you had have told me that your grandma
made it.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Now in my head, I'm like, man, no pressure, it
ain't gonna be even no pressure. No pressure, because that's
a different way no pressure. When was the first time
you had it, Like do you remember was there a
moment you had it where you were like, oh damn,
like taking it back and it kind of just became
part of your comfort.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I definitely was like a juvenile. I was probably around
like ten years old that I actually started actually paying
attention to food because I got grandmother that can actually
throw all the way down. And I got this grandmother.
She had a couple different dishes that she was just
nice at. This was one of those dishes that she's
(04:55):
nice at. It. I don't want it from nobody else,
or like this is the standard, you know what I mean?
Like as I grow up with her being going, it's
like it doesn't matter whose it is. It's like I
remember her that travel back in time and actually remember
where you come from, like the good times. And you know,
like people always say, like you shouldn't wish to grow
(05:16):
up so fast. When I used to want to be
an adult, but now that I'm an adult, it's like
I want to be a kid again. So yeah, chick
and dumplins is very special to me.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Have you ever tried to recreate it or do you
ever make it for yourself?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
No? I don't. That's why when you I looked you
up and all the stuff that you do, I'm like,
oh man, so he liked to go there. I'm like,
all right, I'm gonna give him a challenge. You know
what I mean, nothing that I knew you would. I
knew you were the roots to the occasion. Yeah, I
mean it's like you are the baking guy, you know
what I mean. Like I say, you got the biscuits
at Tatyana. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Definitely know how to throw down you never sure. I
actually love doing it this way right. I don't know
that much about it, but I got a little bit
out of you. I think he told me, I'm gonna
pull up the text. Hold on, I'm gonna pull.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Up the text of what we said. Let's go. You
just said chicken and dumpling, and I was like great,
and you asked me anything special about it. I'm like spicy.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Like a few days later, I was like sitting on
the couch and I was like, man, hold up, let
me I need a little bit more. Sometimes I don't
get a little more. Sometimes I get just like a
line and I gotta roll with it. And you said
always from scratch, spicy, very filling, comforting exactly, and that's
all I needed to know. Where I was like, Okay,
I think I could bring this to the next level.
(06:34):
And you know, I don't make chicken and dumplings often.
I don't know if I've ever made it until right now,
to be honest with you. I mean I've had it,
thought about it, but I don't know if I've ever
really made it or dissected like what it is. Do
you know, are you familiar with like history of chicken
and dumplings.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
No, I'm not really familiar with the history. I just
know that it has two of my favorite things chicken,
and it's like like two different things that I can't
live without. Like sometimes you ever meet somebody and they're like,
I don't like that, and it's like what you don't
like about it? The name or something, because you eat
this and you eat that, and it's just a marriage
(07:12):
of it.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I mean, I eat chicken every day in different forms.
I love chicken, and I know that chicken is widely
consumed by people in this country. Chicken used to be
a delicacy, which now then we got all the mass
produced chickens, so we got that. You ever drove through Delaware, Delaware, Delaware,
all them factories, man, so it's not not so much
(07:34):
the delicacy no more. But back you know, over the
course of the twentieth century, combination of stewed chicken and
rolled dumplings kind of became sort of taking on localized names,
you know, chicken and pastry, North Carolina ultimately chicken and dumpling.
And some people do different types of dumplings. Some people
do the drop biscuit, some people do an actual layered
flaky biscuit. You know what I'm saying. Okay, So that's
(07:56):
what I kind of did, a hybrid because sometimes you
don't want to overcomplish cake what should be simple. And
the thing about flaky r biscuits is that is cold
layered butter and a hot oven is what makes the
flaky layer. So if you think about when you cook
chicken and dumplings, that might not translate. So I thought
maybe that maybe the non layered buttery drop biscuit would
(08:16):
worked better because it'll stew with the mixture and kind
of turned soft. Okay, So that was the approach I took.
You know, we read about chicken and dumplings. I was
in my brain like, okay, I've had it before, thick.
Maybe a roue pulled chicken could be legg could be thighed,
could be breast. I opted to go with breasts today
because the corner store, this whole, a little hippie, dippy
(08:37):
little shop, only had the organic breast. I would have
liked to do a hybrid of some dark meat and
white meat, because I think that would have given it
more flavor.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'll last.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So what I did is I just boiled it straight,
shredded the chicken breast. And you told me about spicy,
So I was like, okay, I brought with me some cayenne,
some Tony's straight out of New Orleans. You already know
it's right behind you. Season some garlic powder, some salt,
some pepper. So I saute the shredded chicken breast with
some butter and those seasonings in the pot over here
(09:10):
where the mixtures actually are right now. Some butter, some carrots, onions, garlic, celery.
Let those sweat. Then I had some chicken broth warming
up behind it, getting all sizzledly, getting all bubbly. I
added some stone ground whole grain flour to the mixture
(09:30):
to create the room, because I was like, if I'm
gonna make a room, I might as well use the
best possible flour I can. So I brought some of
that shit with me. You know what, I'm saying, mixed
up the flour, added the chicken broth. Then I added
the cream, because you know, it's like you were talking
about that thick, creamy comforting chicken and dumplings opted to
go with heavy cream. After I added the heavy cream,
(09:50):
I mixed it up. I let it simmer. I added
the peas frozen peas. Was there peas in your Grandma
Chicken and the Dublins?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It was like a nice pop pole you hear me?
Like situation, but it was like in the soup. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So I opted to make more of a dumpling dumpling,
and I melted the butter stone ground flour, milk, salt,
a little sugar because I was like, I'm gonna put
this on top of this mixture and then it's gonna kind.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Of steam to cook it.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So with the flaky layer, cold butter biscuit, you want
the pop up hot oven. And I was like, this
is a different ballgame. This is like steam in the biscuit.
So I made a dumpling like that, and I'm about
to serve it to you right now. Hey man, let's
get it.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Would you like.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Something as well? I gotta serve everybody, all right, you
want something too bad, I gotta bead, sit down and
hold your post. All right, all right, so the moment
has come. You've been served chicken and dumplings. I need
all the deeps. Man, What do you see? What do
you smell?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I see celery, I see some nice carriages. I see
some peas, I see these husky pieces of chicken. I
see the biscuit. It's like nice and creamy, looking like
it's not see through. You're not opake. It's like we're rich.
You ready to get in? Yes, I am. Let's do it.
Let's go, let's go, let's go. Oh have spice. Right there?
(11:08):
You did it, man, this strawing slamming.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm hungry too.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So you asked me, did I ever attempt to make
it myself? I never attempted to make it myself. But
it used to be a brand when I was a
kid called Glory. You remember glory in the can? Glory.
I used to have glory greens, Glory yams. It was
like a soul food. They sold it in the market,
and they had it chicken and dumplings. It wasn't my
(11:35):
man minds, but it was something I could open the
can and I could like, spice it up myself, make
it for myself. So like that's the closest I ever
been to. This's like, thank you, bro. Like this strawing
is slamming, man, I did this for you. I mean,
I'm gonna clean my plate. Shit. This is definitely that
type type of business. Are you seeing the whole grain
(11:57):
flower in there? Listen, bro, you stepped on this. What's
the green right here? Parsley Parsley heard.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It wasn't time because it looked too big, and it
wasn't the peat or the celery, so it was definitely
the Parsley.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I put you down real cheffy and like dice some
kale up or something. No thing. Man.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Like one time I was making some po boys for
somebody in Miami. I was trying to open a concept.
This dude was an investor.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
He was like, oh po boys, oh in Miami. Be great.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
That made me some po boys And I was like,
all right, I'm gonnat some po boys made the bread
because you already know, I get down and I made
it real fried catfish, lettuce, hotouse, tomato, mayo pickle. Like
it was slamming. It was a good boy. He was
eating it, you know, he was there with some people
and I was cooking right in front of him, and
they were like, okay, great, great, great. By the way,
(12:48):
I just had to pause my story. Clean plate club
has been achieved. Clean plate club has been achieved. We
about to get seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, this was good.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
They regrouped. They walked me outside and the guy was like,
you know, I really thought you were gonna wow me.
And I was expecting to see some kind of like
housemade aoli or you know, maybe some mixed greens instead
of that iceberg lettuce and maybe some da da da.
I was like, I'm making you a po boy, not
a rich boy.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And they don't get it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I'll never forget that moment. He had no clue how
to even respond to that shit because he don't even
know what the history of it. So dud with money
who was like, oh, look at this lebron guy making
something cool. Let's turn it into a concept. And I'm like, no, dog,
I'm making you a po boy, not a rich boy.
And that's to my point.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Ko.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, I used some stone groundhole grain flower for the dumpling,
but and I want to I want to know your
thoughts on that. I think it just gives like a
little bit of oof that's a little different, but not
enough to where it just changes everything about the dynamics.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
You know, I feel like this right here, the stone
brown flower actually gave it like that little step of
against it. Now instead of like ten dollars on the may,
we can go for that extra you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Hungry for more flaky biscuit, stay tuned? All right, All right,
let's just jump back in my listeners. Bridget myself were
(14:24):
wondering did I bring you back though to your grandma house?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And if not, where did I bring you? I feel
like you might have brought me back, but actually on
the elevated tip, my grandma ain't using no stone ground flower. Yeah,
I mean so it was like but like I told you,
like I'm already in that space today because it's her birthday.
So like I'm highly appreciative of you actually making this
(14:50):
meal for me, and it exceeded my expectations. It got the.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Hotness coming spice levels always tricky.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I grew up with hot sauce on the table like
in my house. Like this might sound crazy, right for breakfast,
we when we had grits, your your age, your bike
and We used to put hot sauce on our grits, right,
and we also like have apple sauce, so like I
used to mix the apple sauce with my grits, a
little hot sauce on it. It's like kind of crazy,
you know what I mean, But like that's what they
did in my house.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
No, but it makes sense because it'll neutralize a little,
it'll cut it'll cut the heat out, and it'll also
add a little sweetness.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Exactly. It's like hot honey. That's basically hot honey.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What you're describing in a way where you got some
apple that's perade sweetness and some heat exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So even like with the Flavor Regulator, right when I
decided to name my company Flavor Regulator, it was always
about I go places and I'm like, hey, this is good,
but maybe if it had a little bit more Like
I try to infuse flavor and as many places as
I can without it being overwhelming. Even with you, like
when you said with the biscuits, You're like, yeah, I'm
(15:53):
gonna use this flower because I know it could elevate
it just a little bit more, but you don't want
to overdo it and have it be like maybe he
don't like it. A rich boy A rich boy, Yeah,
that's great. So what actually makes a po boy? Oh shit, Yeah,
I'm interested in that question because I can tell you
it's so many fake Philly cheese steaks out here.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And that's the question I had for you. I was
gonna get to you know, this is a special episode, man,
it's not. It's not often that Guess will ask me
a question like that. It was Nope, So I'm gonna
be real. A po boy is several things. First, we
got to start with sandwiches, right, because every part of
the world has a distinct sandwich culture, and definitely, when
you're from a part of the world, you think your
(16:36):
sandwich is better than other sandwiches. So like I think
po boys is exceptional. I'm not gonna say it's the
holy Grail of sandwiches, but like you know, I had
a cheese steak, I had a chopped cheese, and it's
no disrespect I love chopped cheese. But a po boy
hits so much different because of the way it's flavored
and fried and not da da da da a shrimp
po boy. Right, It's all about the spice level and
(16:57):
the way something's fried you gotta have or a roast
beef po boy. But your roast beef gotta be a
real roast beef. It can be sliced. And this is
what I'm saying. Like you said fake Philly cheese seak.
You go to New Orleans, you got a roast beef
po boy and you see it's like sliced roast beef.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Na.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I don't want to I want the debris. I want
a real chunk of beef that was roast. You know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And then and.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
On that menu, you got a debris po boy, which
is French fries with the roast beef, debris, Mayo, hot
house tomatoes, Chris Iceberg lettuce. The bread is the star
to show them. The po boy bread is not replicated
anywhere in the country. Now.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
You could say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
About like a Kaiser roll or a bagel, Like there's
different breads in the world that aren't replicated. And the
reason why is because you got a concentration of people
who specialize in that bread in that part of the world.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So in New Orleans we got people that make po
boy French bread.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Colonization, it's all about the colonies and who colonized what
so French cats.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So number one, it has to be on French bread.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
French bread, and the way you make it not to
get too deep milk or milk powder. Maybe a little
rice flour, brown rice flour if you want to get
a little more fermentation. But the rice flower is gonna
add to that structure and stability to the bread. The
milk is going to add that creaminess and sturdiness to
hold the toppings, some sugar for the color, and to
make the top crackle. The top has to shatter when
(18:25):
you bite into powar read, it has to shatter a
little bit. To the point is there's a lot of
layers in sandwiches, even if it's like, oh, it's just
like six ingredients, but like what goes into a po
boyd thing. And this is my personal opinion, it's very special.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I get it because in Philadelphia, so I didn't been
in places. So I was just in Kuwait a couple
months ago, right, and the guy there I went out
there to get with, he took us to a fully
cheese steak place in Kuwait, and I'm like in Kuwait
and I'm like, shit, it's not it And was not it.
It's not it because first and foremost is about the role.
(18:59):
It has to be on that iron roll. It's a
famous company called Amoroso's here this is the home Amorosos.
So it's like, listen, we gotta start with that Italian
lot of times. It comes from the city where it's
at the water. We got to talk about that water.
You understand, it's not the same wherever you're doing it.
And then they had letters and tomatoes on it, and
(19:19):
it's like, this is a cheese steak, Hoki, this is
not a cheese steak.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
So what is a cheese steak?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
To me? A cheese steak is an Italian role from
Philadelphia and you have to have shaved ribbi. Like it's
just about that cutting meat too, because like no, no,
because like these guys like it's certain places they got
the super tough meat or the steak thems and it's
like right, who wants to lose their teeth trying to
eat this? Like come on, like this show gotta be right,
(19:48):
and the's simpler the better, Like it's really about that
role and the meat and whatever you decide to put
on your cheese steaks, see me, I like Cooper Shark,
Cooper sharp fried onions. You gotta get fried onions. Like,
if you're not putting onions on that, it's not a
fully cheese steak. Like I don't know nobody from fully
that don't get fried Okay, but I love Cooper Shark
(20:10):
the creaming and stuffing, you know what I mean. But
in my younger days it was I was a provolone
kind of guy. Yeah, and I do barbecue sauce and mayo.
Oh damn ship. So I hate Ketchup Okay, I feel
like Ketchup is for children.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh damn, I love Ketchup.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Said, I love Ketchup. He said, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna
tell you the truth. Right, we know it's Ketchup and
barbecue sauce. So I feel like, let's get some sophisticated,
good good barbecue. I mean, I like sweet Baby Rais
sweeping Rais got the hood in the coba clutch, like
the spicy sweet Baby Rais got the hood in the
copa clutch. Like if I go into your kitchen and
(20:47):
you don't have that spicy sweet baby raised, I'm like,
what are you doing? Big game? Yeah, like what are
you doing?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And we're pulling up I'm like, honestly, it's like awful
and a little too sweet for you.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But it is. But it's it's my it's a guilty pleasure.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I gotta say this, man, like maybe I am a
child because, like everyone I talked to about ketchup. I
did this podcast with David Chang called Recipe Club. I
did this one recipe with him and his boy Chrissy,
and they were vibing with what I did, And as
soon as I mentioned ketchup, bro, they started just straight
shitting so many different things.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You could do.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I know, I look, I know that, but ketchup is great.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I won't take this away. Ketchup and French fries, Yeah, man,
that's a great marriage. This is Philadelphia. It's the home
of Hers potato chips, right Hers. Yeah? You ever had
ketchup chips?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
In Canada, Yeah, Philadelphia. You know Hines come from Pittsburgh,
that's the other side of Pennsylvania. Yeah, but they had
the Hers ketchup chips with the Hines ketchup. And that's
the thing. Another thing, would ketchup? It gotta be hinds
to me. When I was a kid, if I went
over your house and you had hunts ketchup. I'm like,
it's off brand. I can't do that. That's why I
was always a barbecue sauce guy, because it's like, oh
(21:59):
he got hunts. No, No, I can't do that. That's
like Sam's Choice cola.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I don't know if you're read Sam's Choice, but it's
like you ain't even got real coke, Like I ain't
even drinking that, or like Arcy cola or some shit
you got that. I don't think I've ever had a
proper cheese steak. I went to the to the bullshit
tourists the first my first time in Philly. I don't know,
all right, they put the wiz on it. I don't
know how you feel about that, and I thought it
(22:24):
was fine. The meat was dry. It felt like it
was just sitting in a chafing dish and just like
you know, drying out.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But you went to one of them. I went to
one of them.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's like it's like if you went too like Bourbon
Street and got a po boy or something like, you
might do it because you don't know, and you're in
the middle of the.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
City, the place with the bright lights. We don't do
that in Philly, so where do we go? I got
a trifecta. It depends on what part of town I'm in.
Where I'm from. I grew up on Gym's West Okay
on sixty second Street. It was black people working in
it for years, but now it's black on West Philly
sixty second Street. They got it. If I'm in South Philly,
(23:02):
I'm gonna do Angelo's on ninth Street. It's right by
the Italian Market Angelo. Yeah, you even said it. It's
for real. They got the Italian bread with the seeds
on it and everything like they go yeah, yeah. And
if and if we're uptown, like towards like where my
shop is at. My shop is in North Philly. So
the closest good cheese stake place is Delasandro's. Always with onions.
(23:26):
When your shits, you just gotta pick what cheese you want.
My mature taste. Buzz love Cooper Shark, I love that man.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
We definitely gonna I might have to come pull up
and pop up or some shit down here. We're gonna
have to reconnect. But the listeners want to know a
lot of things about you. I want to know a
lot of things about you. More specifically, I want to know.
How did you get started in food? Clearly you're a smart,
sharp chef. You clearly know a lot about flavor profiles.
You speak with a lot of passion when it comes
(23:52):
to different types of food.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
How did you get here? I got started in food
way young, like in my grandma's skirt, so you know,
like Grandma, it may be a family dinner and she
needs the ques cut up for the mac and cheese. Oh,
I'll do that because I'm steal something too. Yeah, I'm
dimn for that, you know what I mean. But I
have a strong family passion for get togethers. So when
(24:16):
my family came up out of the South, my mother's side,
we went to four different cities up north. We went
to Norfolk, Virginia, Baltimore, Maryland, Philadelphia, and New Haven. And
from that my grandfather and his first cousin, my uncle Harvey,
they started this family reunion and my family would go
(24:38):
from one of those cities every year Labor Day weekend.
So whatever city it's in, they're hosting. So you don't
have to put no money up except for your hotel. Right,
they collecting fees all year like we do this, you'wing
real and if you're not paying your fees, cousin, you know,
like we were looking at you every function, like listen,
(24:59):
pay them fees. Yeah me, because once you get eighteen,
you oh you're ode because we partying together. Yeah, I mean,
and I looked at that like that was a look
into party promoting and like organizing cater ring and so
like the gene was always in us. And then we
got my father's side. We always had family dinners, Like
it doesn't matter what holiday it is, We're going to
(25:21):
go somewhere and have dinner. We're gonna hold hands before
we eat, and we're gonna play board games after we Yeah,
and you know, the age groups are going to break
down and to like y'all be out here, y'all go here. Yeah,
I mean I got to a certain age. I was
in the back of the house with the cousins. Then
fast forward, I started getting locked up. The food sucks
(25:43):
in jail. Oh shit, I guess where the food doesn't
suck It where in the kitchen the officers dining in hall.
They call it the odr A most prisons they call it.
So it's like, you know, they don't eat the same
shit we eat. What did they? Oh they get stanf appreciated.
They get chicken wings, they get faux cheese steaks, you
(26:04):
know what I mean, because they ain't real unless they've
done the right way. They get all types of solids,
you know, like being locked up, you don't even get
solids then, you know, as kids, it's like imagine missing
a solid, you know what I mean. But it's like
they get the good fruit without the bruises on it,
you know what I mean. So my whole thing, like
when I started getting booked, it's like that's where I
(26:25):
can eat at. But I can also hustle because everybody
else hungry too.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh damn.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I can get into this kitchen. I can make a
couple of swags, bring them back to the block. Swags
is anything they was saying. It's a big chicken day.
So I might have a little program running where my
man he gonna stash fifty pieces of chicken fives, right,
and I got him, he breaking them down, taking them
all off the bone. I come in, I get all
the bread, We run that thrown through the toaster. We
(26:50):
start making sandwiches, get the cheese, and then we wrapping
them around ourselves and we smuggling them out the kitchen
back to whatever block you at is on now you
selling sandwiches.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Now that my mind's blown. But my question is what
did you get out of that? Why did you do that?
Because you could have just made a sound for yourself
and moved on with today. Why did you go?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Does it cost to live? It costs to live, like
I seen supplying the men, you know what I mean.
Like it's one thing I know. It's like when you
in there, you still need money to live. That's the
one thing I like to get people to really understand
about this carceral system. It's very predatory because it's not
just praying on me like say, I'm your brother, I
get locked up, right, you got to do that bed
(27:32):
with me if you love me, you know what I mean,
Because now I'm calling home, like, yo, bro, next check.
You think you can float me fifty bucks? Yeah? I
got you now automatically. My brother every month he making
sure he sent me fifty dollars. But if I can
make a way out of no way, out of just
living off the land, that's what they call that, you
know what I mean? I was living off the land.
So it's real rap because people is paying money in
(27:55):
the penitentiary right now for the guy who could smuggle
him some onions and peppers back to the block to
make that romen noodle better flavor, like the things that
we take for granted and near people got a smuggling
out of a kitchen. So I just seen a opening
and I feeled it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Did that also play a part in who you are
as a chef today? Is do you ever draw in
those moments in an inspirational way?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. My guy Sonny, welcome home to him.
He just hit the halfway house. So he likes to
tell everybody like that was my Sully when he used
to make pizza O to romen noodles, and he told
me he was gonna go home and make it shake
and let him tell it like I started down North
pizza up there. All I had was ramen noodles, cheese its.
(28:46):
I used to crush them together a little water. Put
him inside of a chip bag, a potato chip bag.
You know, you move it together with a little water.
Now we flatten it out, flattening it out till it
gets nice and stuff. Let us sit for a little bit,
put a book on top of it. You know, you
got to be ingenuitive. Right, I'm making my oven out
of an extension cord and some fingernail clippers. That's how
(29:07):
I'm boiling water in there.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Let me tell you something right now, I've read books,
met chefs, I've been all this fancy shit. You go
on TV and social media and see all these big
brand guy Gordon rams or whatever. What you're telling me
right now, I think is the real cooking. And you
did it in an environment that not many First of all,
not many people even know about, and not many people
(29:32):
surviving in an environment that was dangerous to you.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So I'm just in awe of your talent.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
You know, you're an executive chef at a pizza company
right now, down with pizza, and you're telling me your
inspiration was from ram and noodles cheese. It's smuggling things
out of a kitchen to the block.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Something, not of nothing. So being in there they make
tattoo guns out of. Take that cassette players. You understand
we don't have pizza sauce, but we got barbecue sauce
and susa, so I'm like, mix them together. That's my sauce.
So I love pizza my whole life. I love making pizza,
(30:11):
and my guy, I'm at our founder. He was like,
I want our pizza to be nostalgic from like the
Ilios when we were kids, you know what I mean.
And even when you had school pizza, remember that that
was paying shit, you know what I mean. So even
in the penitentiary, they when they give you pizza on
certain days, I don't know if they still giving it
up like that, but it's always a paying style pizza.
(30:35):
All I know is that whenever that day happened, whether
it's the penitentiary, you're in school, they both institutions. But
you didn't skip that line. He was there, right or wrong.
If as long as it's pizza, I'm damn for it.
But if y'all doing the mystery meat loaf and all
that up and shit, I might skip that. I keep
my lunch money until we get out of school, and
you might go get it, poor boy where you at? Yeah, man,
(30:55):
I might go go to the poppy store and get
a cheese stick because I'm not eating that, but pizza
that And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Listen, Like you know my work, I'm focused specifically on
Latin American baking, but nothing gonna stop me from making pizza,
pizza content, pizza dough feeding people, pizza people come over
for dinner. Hey, I'm gonna make some sourdo pizza. Pizza
is like a unifier. And I remember at school eating
the little pizzas they came into plastic bag. They would
pop them in some kind of oven. It would come
out all steamy and and wet and actually kind of nasty, but.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Was good now you still but you ate it and
I would eat it right now. Is so familiar.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So you know, you've been in and out of the system.
You've come out to become an executive chef. But I
want to know what was the moment like for you
to reintegrate into And I'm not gonna say some shit
about reintegrating society because like that's a whole different dimension.
I'm sure I'm interested in reintegrating into the ingredient pool.
(31:53):
So when you realize you were, like, I want to
make pizza for a living, you must have felt like
you were in a playground when you started, Oh there's flour,
and you know what I'm saying this, I can do.
Oh there's a mixer, and so like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Walk me through my culinary adventure. Once I left the penitentiary.
My first job outside of the penitentiary working in the kitchen.
I was a short order chef for my mom works
for the electric company, and it was this guy he
had to bid for the electric company. So all the linemen,
those guys coming early in the morning, and I would
make their breakfast, you know what I mean. So like
(32:26):
that's my first stint on the line. Then I ended
up getting knocked. I go away for seven and a
half years. I come back home and my peel was like, listen,
get a job or go to school. I'm twenty seven
at this time, so I'm like, I'm going to school
so i can still play, you know what I mean?
The girls school. Yoh man, I'm going to school. So
I registered at the Art Institute of Philadelphia and I'm
(32:50):
in school now, and it's not all it was cracked
up to be. The only classes that I'm enjoying is
the lab classes. I excelled at Colorinary math because I've
been cutting the measure in my whole life. But other
than that, it's like, I don't want to take this
English class. But I'm always paying attention to these lab
(33:12):
classes because now I'm used to being in the penitentiary
where I got to ask them to let me inside
to walk in, and they staying there over me. And
now I'm in a culinary heaven. I'm like, I'm just
walking in the pantry and I'm like, oh shit, we
got an assignment. And it's like, I can use this.
What is this? I've never seen this shit before, and
(33:34):
I'm experimenting with these different flavors. And I'm at school
being able to come home and actually be in the
side of the kitchen that wasn't policed, right because I
come up in the police kitchen, you know what I mean.
So the knives that we used to have to cut
shit up with, they were tethered to the motherfucking tape,
and so you felt freedom.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Ultimately, all of a sudden you realize what like a
culinary freedom might feel here exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
And I've really it was like, oh I could do this.
So like I got my first job at a catering
company out Phoenixville. It's like a suburb and shout out
to chef Maria Campbell. Always shout her out because she
told me that I was an expert in mass quantity production,
and I freaked my resume and I got a job
(34:19):
and like twenty dollars an hour, let's go. Yeah. I
mean they asked, oh, so where's your previous experience. Oh,
I used to work at SCI Greensburg. Yeah, in the
dietary department. I ain't say I was in me, you
know what I mean, But like once you get me in, like,
I don't know how you are in kitchens, but I'm
big on the demo. I bluffed my way into so
many kitchens. It's like, yeah, this demo it for me.
(34:42):
See that's how I started making my way in these
kitchens out here. So shout out to her. She got
me to help me form a resume that I felt
comfortable enough to pass around and it was up to
me after that to sell myself. So once I'm in
those different kitchens and like you said, freedom, I'm not restricted.
I could actually do whatever I want. And I'm doing
(35:05):
little things outside of the recipe. You know, a recipe
is just a guideline. Like me had a little bit
of this, a little bit of that little and everybody like, oh, yeah,
we want mic on that now. It's like yeah, So,
like I started getting real confident and around the pandemic.
I remember I left this one restaurant I was at
(35:26):
because they wouldn't give me the amount of money that
I thought I deserved. Because it's like a lot of
times when I was in the downtown restaurants, I'm the
black guy, and I'm the black guy that's from the city.
So some people are saying I'm aggressive. They're saying I'm that. No,
I'm just not letting you walk all over me and
say whatever, and you're not going to talk to me
like Gordon Ramsey talks to the people, because like we
can go out back, yeah you know what I mean. Like,
(35:47):
I'm not with none of that shit. So like once
they realized they couldn't control me, but it was actually
good to have me in the kitchen because I actually
got the job done. It was golden. And then the
pandemic hit and I started flavor regulators. Basically, I bought
a smoker and I was on my porch with a
(36:08):
I had a six rated smoker with the hooks, the
sausage hooks, and I'm just smoking me and people walking
by like, yo, you selling that because you know, ain't
nobody outside no more. And I'm like, shit, go to
the restaurant depot, give me a couple of platters. Yet
now I'm selling it. And then out of nowhere, I
got a call. You're the person who meets you check
(36:31):
off all the boxes to be the executive chef for
this spot, because it's one thing to hire guys from
the penitentiary, but it's another thing to hire guys that
could actually run a restaurant. And it was a rap
after that. One thing I liked for people to understand
is I'm not just a piece of chef, you know what
I mean. Pizza made perfect sense because I was going
(36:52):
to be able to actually demonstrate and tell my story
and speak for the voiceless people that are actually still
inside my phone rings. Like if I didn't mute my
phone before I came in here, I would have had
about two three jail calls for my homies. Like they
called me and they tell me, oh what they're doing
in there now? And I'm listening every time because I'm like,
I ain't going back for shit. Keep telling me about it,
(37:13):
because I'm gonna tell the media about the goofy stuff
that's going on in there. So my position at down
North Piece it was like my demonstration because during the pandemic,
everybody was out there protesting for Floyd. Black Lives Matter.
But somebody like me, and like I told you, one
out of three black Americans are on some type of
(37:33):
parole or had some type of experience with the cars
rolls system. It's not a bail fund in America that
could bail me out if I have any contact with
the police. So I couldn't be out there right, No,
that it's automatic locked up. I got kids. I can't
play that shit like I can't go out there. So
like down North has become my demonstration, I'm gonna show
(37:54):
you what it looked like when returning citizens get together.
I tell everybody, we're five. There's at my shot. I
got a bunch of dads that make pizza and trying
to come up. That's it in a in a nutshell
like the Journey, but a lot went into actually developing
this menu at down Nor if I don't have a menu,
(38:15):
I have a track list. Every single one of my
pizzas is a name of a Philadelphia hip hop or
R and B song. Wow. So my top selling pie
is the rock the mic it's bing and I got
that might right exactly. Freeway, Freeway been to the shop.
(38:40):
You know what I mean shout out to him.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Man. Let me say about freeway. Man getting me.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Is the lockers down there, the way and key but
without this drug sh kids and got no way. Yeah,
so like wow. So back to that track list. Hip
hop played a big part of be in the soundtrack
so our Lives when we was out there, so we
definitely wanted to be nostalgic. Even the title of our
(39:06):
shot down North. When you were in Philadelphia. If you're
going to North Philly, you're going to down You're going
down North. It don't matter if you're coming from South Philly,
whether you're coming from Sennay City, but you're going down North.
So with down North being the culture of how we
speak in Philadelphia, the menu had to reflect the culture.
So the rock the mice, that's the beef pepperoni piece.
It's a loud shot. We serve no pork in our shot.
(39:28):
That's my top summing pie and no better love you.
I can't stop kiving you. Remember that. That's the cheese
pie because there's no better love than the cheese. I mean,
but what we do. That's my freaky jowing. That got
a little. That's the meat lovers. That's the pepperoni, beef
sausage that we make salte kale, banana peppers, and the
(39:50):
honey chipotle drizzle on top of it four cheese blend
like you. So I'm getting real freaky with the flavors.
But it's all a soundtrack to fill Philadelphia. I love
the fact that our restaurant has become a destination for
people to actually come from out of town or anywhere
in the city and they be like, yo, oh shit,
(40:11):
you got a flip side one that you're on.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
You what we do, It's an experience, And I think
this is why you're so important, why a lot of chefs,
you know, whether it's Kwame and Tatiana or you know,
it's changing the conception of what an experience should be
or what what is a destination restaurant. You know, like,
if Bordain was alive, will he come He probably won't
come to you, to be honest, for sure. And that's
(40:34):
the new level that we want to bring. It's like
not just your experience and your culture and your upbringing
and everything you've been through. It's the fact that it
is actually a high level eatery at the same time,
and it happens to have maybe Freeways playing in the
background or something like that. Maybe were wearing our new
rags when we walk in and be like, what's up, bro,
And the media doesn't like to let us think that
(40:55):
that can be high level food. We're changing that, you're changing.
We can the cool.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
We're controlling because we always have it. You always straight
like that, and don't ever forget it. When you own
a shop, you can put whoever you won on the wall.
So guess what I got on the wall? All black people?
You know what I mean? I got nothing but his
historic and iconic pictures of Philadelphia. And you ever heard
a move. In nineteen eighty five, our mayor, our first
(41:21):
black mayor, dropped a bomb on an all black neighborhood
in West Philadelphia. And we actually have those pictures on
the wall. Some of them guys, I was locked up
with some of them. Guys were talking about the only
people in the history of this country to go to
jail after that they dropped the bomb on them. Yeah,
you know what I mean, we talking about they did
thirty forty years. When you come into our shop, you
(41:41):
see a picture of sixty two row homes level. So
when they come in and like, yeah, I'm here for pizza,
but like, what's up with that picture on the wall? Oh,
let me tell you something about Philadelphia. This is the
history that I grew up in that rubble, you know
what I mean. They was just putting that neighborhood back together.
I always knew about that. They may come for Pisa,
but they stay for the message and the conversation that
(42:03):
they get, you know what I mean, because it's forgotten
about piece of history in Philadelphia. But if you come
to my shop, you're gonna learn. Man, I just learned.
I'm glad. You're very special, like you're you're very special.
You're me. I can't steal all the time from the grandmother.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
We'll be back after these messages from our sponsors. Welcome
back to Flaky Biscuit. It's very inspirational, the way you
(42:44):
carry yourself, the way your knowledge who's is out of you?
And I can tell that you're going to play? Where
are you going? I mean, what's next?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
What's next? I got a lot, It's so much happening,
and I'm trying to seize every opportunity in front of me.
So oh, we started a restaurant group down North Pisa
North Star restaurant group. Out West is my next project.
So when you're in Philadelphia, you're going to Westville. You're
going out West, a different concept, same mission, only hiring
(43:17):
formally incarcerated. And some people may see that wrong, you
know what I mean? But why would that be wrong?
I feel like I'm trying to let the guys know,
ain't nobody going save us? You a dad, how I'm
a dad, and we gotta take care of these babies,
raise them right my righteousness? You know what I mean.
Ain't nobody gonna help us. There's no magic bullet. It's
(43:42):
you know what I mean, like reparate all that. It's
not happening, bro, not not right now. We got to
be the catalyst. So like I'm encouraging all my guys
that's coming out. I ain't hooked up with so many
different people from different cities, you know what I mean,
that actually went through the penitentiary the same way as
I did, and they got something going in they city,
and they're like, Dad, I never thought about just hiring us. Yeah,
(44:05):
why not? Because people gotta understand, like we are a
forgotten population that is one third of the African American population.
You know what I mean, and I really try to
rehumanize my guys because we're nothing but a bunch of dads.
We go on Father's Day hikes, We've been on Father's
Day camping trips. We go out, they eat as a gang.
(44:27):
I know everybody in my shot kids, and my kids
know that, and that's what we want people to see
outside of like see me as a fucking human being. Yea,
you know what I mean. I'm not what the fuck
I've done, and you done done some shit you just
ain't get caught. But like, let's talk about it, you
know what I mean. I didn't been in the jail
where the rich white kid comeing to jail when all
(44:49):
of a sudden he's the fuck out and it's like,
what his charge is worse than mine? How to fuck
he get out because he knew somebody, you know what
I mean, Like, it don't happen for people on my
side of town. The only people that's going to help us,
it's us. And that's just a message I'm gonna keep
pumping out West coming May June. It's a breakfast sandwich concept,
(45:09):
all right, breakfast and lunch sandwiches Monday through Friday. Then
I'm gonna do a little brunch situation because I got
more seating than I ever imagine. Now, all right, so
like I'm ready to get busy, and like I also
got a program where I'm working with the youth inside
of the Juvenile Justice Center in Philadelphia every Tuesday, I'm near.
I got a cooking class I'm doing every unit. I
(45:30):
get six weeks with them because we also have a
healing garden where they're actually growing their own food, so
it's like a farm to table situation, and then they
actually get to cook the food that they grew with us.
And I'm you know, I'm recruiting. I'm in there, like
who got that culinary blug? Cause like you know, like
I always tell people, if who's to stay, if I
(45:52):
didn't have somebody just pull my coat like a chef, yo, man,
come fuck with me real fast, you know, I mean,
where I would be in my life. So what I'm
trying to do for them kids is what wasn't done
for me when I was going through that system. I
didn't have nobody pointing me towards farm, and I didn't
have anybody pointing me towards like come work in my kitchen.
So even if they don't want to work in our industry.
(46:14):
When you go home, you can help your mom out,
to help your little sister. Yeah, I mean if you're
the oldest, that mean you cooking.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, man, I know all about that.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Man.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
I had to make sure that chicken was ready for
my mom when she got home. Take these shoes off.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
You ain't getting the water with ice, you know what
I'm saying. Yeah, chicken ready. Man in trouble.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
All right, So we're now going to play our flaky game.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Let's go oh shit, I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
No, he's like hung up the damns the game.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
We're playing a game. Let's do it unflin.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
All right, We're going back to the subject of chicken
and dumplings, which of the following are thought to be
one of the earliest versions. Is it a fish, turnip
greens cooked with corn meal, or kwa loop.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I'm gonna have to say the turnip greens with the cormeu.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's a really great answer because it's correct. Turnip greens
and cornmeal dumplings, which, if you think about how you
know proteins were introduced into a lot of areas, like
the first Cuban sandwich, for example, was was really just
it was veggies, so turnip greens serving as kind of
the sustenance of the meal, and then you know, proteins
(47:31):
were introduced.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Well done, Hey, let's go all.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Right, here we go. What is another variation of the
dish chicken and dumplings, haggis neats and tatties, chicken fingers,
or bot boy.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Well, haggis is the sheep's stomach, it is, and teddy potatoes.
So I'm gonna have to say bot boy because I
don't know what that is. Pot boy, My boys a
Pennsylvania Dutch suit.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Involving dough boiled in chicken broth or chicken stock and
it's made with beef hash.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is, all right. Last one,
last one.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
If you have electoraphobia, what are you afraid of? Loose
leaf paper, chicken or bread?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
I'm trying to like use like etymology and stay on
the theme of British. It's going to have to be
chicken is elep chicken.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Electorophobia is an intense, uncontrollable fear of ship.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
So that was what black people have, the fear of phobia.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
People electrophobia have excessive fear and anxiety are on roosters
and hens.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Oh shit.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So when it comes to the down North Foundation, how
can our listeners help out?
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Can we volunteer? Can we donate? Is our website down
North Foundation dot org. We're always doing community events. You
can donate on there, just tap in, shoot us an email.
We're always looking for volunteers. We are really community involved.
So our first year at a restaurant, we did a
free lunch program. I would do like a slice of pizza,
(49:19):
some fries, and a chicken tender and we got people
to this day. I can't wait till the summertime when
y'all giving that because it's like, we gonna keep on
pressing for the neighborhood and we want to just be
that resource. So if you need a job or connect
to anybody anything that you want to do, it's like,
you know, it's nothing like networking. Yeah, so we strive
to be that glue for the community.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Wow, I'm just lord, thanks for coming on, Flaky Biscuit.
My listeners are going to be very thrilled. This episode
is very powerful, very special. I want y'all to go
out there and make sure we're helping the Downlo Foundation.
If you're in Philly, pull up. If you're not in Philly,
get on the website. I'm gonna be out here for
sure doing some kind of collaboration with download. But thanks
for coming on. Flaky Biscuit was an honor to have you.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
And thank you for having me man, thank.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
You, thank y'all so much for listening. I'm beaming right
now having met Chef Mike. You can find the recipe
for the chicken and dumplings on shanaland dot com. And
I want to know how it goes. Apparently I did
okay today, you know what I mean, like being got
the stone ground flowers.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
It's all good.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
You can just use all purpose flour, make a nice dumpling,
melt some butters, make a flaky biscuit.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Do something. Tag me URIs and Brian, tag Chef Mike
at coolm Is, post your photos, your videos, let us
know how you did. You can support the down North
Foundation donate or buy some of their swag at down
North Foundation dot org. All of these handles and links
I've mentioned are in the show notes for the episode.
Like Flakey Biscuits, leave us a shiny five star review.
(50:50):
Make sure you subscribe, like your share, Thank y'all for
the support. Blakey Biscuit is executive produced by Sandy Bailey,
alex Alja, Laura Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collin. Our
creative producer is Bridget Kenna and our editor and producer
is Nicholas Harder, with music by Crucial. Recipes from Flaky
Biscuit can be found each week on Shondaland dot com.
(51:13):
Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel of more Flaky Biscuit content.
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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