June 27, 2023 • 44 mins
On this inaugural episode, host Bryan Ford is joined by sommelier, restaurateur, and the host of World of Wine— André Mack. Bryan and André share a homemade version of André’s favorite childhood snack: Tastykakes Butterscotch Krimpets.
Watch Bryan make his version and Subscribe: Youtube
Recipe from today's episode can be found at Shondaland.com
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André Mack IG: @andrehmack
Bryan Ford IG: @artisanbryan
To donate or volunteer at the New York City food bank visit foodbanknyc.org, and to get involved with your local food bank wherever you are, visit feedingamerica.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. We're really doing it, huh making it Welcome
to the Flaky Biscuit Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Ford,
also known as Ours and Brian. You know that I
(00:20):
write cookbooks. You know that I've done TV shows, but
most importantly, I just love to cook and bake for others.
Each episode, we're cooking delicious morsels of nostalgia, meals and
recipes that have comforted and guided our guests to success.
So that means each episode, all right, I'm creating a
recipe from scratch, fem. I'm talking about from scratch, literally
(00:42):
hand delivering it to my guests, Recipes that hopefully you're
also making at home, maybe giving me advice on where
I went right or wrong, how to make it better,
How did it taste, how did it smell? And speaking
of tastes and smell y'all, our guest today is no
stranger to picking up flavors and scents, so I have
my work cut out for me, to be completely honest.
(01:03):
He's an award winning Somalier wine maker, entrepreneur who owns restaurants,
a bakery. I mean he's milling. He about to be
milling flour out there in Brooklyn, you know what I mean.
And not only that, he was the first black person
to win the title of Best Young Somalier in America.
I am so excited and thrilled to have my new
friend Andre Mack on the podcast. How you doing Andre,
(01:27):
yeay yay.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm doing great, man, I'm doing great. I'm busy, I'm
excited trying to get the pandemic behind us, and just
really excited to welcome people back. And I think that
we should treat everybody with grace.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It was really challenging, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, it was very very challenging.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Speaking of grace, man, you know, we kind of have
been linking up. You've been treating me pretty good. I
just ate at your new restaurant, Kingfisher. I just tried
some of your new rye whiskey.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
To see yesterday. It tasted delicious, man. I was really
really excited to be there.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thanks for coming through, man. Yeah. It's always one of
those things where when you breathe life into something, something
that starts in your mind and on paper, and you
kind of push it around and and then it's the label,
and then you know, finally, you know, something like yesterday,
which is the launch of my new company called Ryan
Soun's Whiskey, that you put it out in the world
and you let other people taste it, and you know,
(02:21):
it becomes a lie. People start to say the name.
You know, it kind of freaks me out a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I always kind of compare it slightly to maybe someone
reciting your lyrics when you're on stage, and it's a
little bit of that, right.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, Yeah, you know, I can definitely relate when I
see people posting recipes from my cookbook two years later,
I'm like this.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That is that still on people's shelves. Yeah, that kind
of surreal moment. But listen, we're going to talk a.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Lot about all of your endeavors, but we're starting this
episode off talking about how you got there, right, Yeah,
and it seems to me you got there with the
very specific snack that kind of kick started something. All right,
So we're gonna dive deep into this. So let's let
us know what you had me bake.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So my parents, we never really baked anything, and so
it was really interesting when you came to me and
I try to think of something from my childhood very
early on, and it was it's called a tasty cake.
It's a butterscotch crumpet. It's pretty much regional. So I
was born in Trenton, I spent the first fifteen summers
of my life in Trenton, and it was just something
that was very special about that thing. I didn't get
(03:25):
to have it a lot, and so it was kind
of like a reward in a way for going to
the store for my elders. If I found some change somewhere.
That's something that I would indulge in. And I lived
all over the world with my parents, and it was
something that you couldn't get anywhere else, like you had
to be there, and that's what made it special.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I'd never heard of them before. Obviously with that kind
of story, it's clearly a pretty special thing that you
were eating all the time. But when I talked to
you about tasty cakes butterscotch crumpets.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I was like, literally like what is that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I was on like Amazon trying to find them, and
it was like eat dollars a box or something, and
I was wait. So when I got some for the
first time, but for those that don't know, Tasty Baking
Company is actually who makes tasty cakes, crimpets and different things.
Originally from Philadelphia, I think in the nineteen nineteen fourteen.
And I don't know if you know much about the
(04:18):
history of Tasty Cakes, but besides being a staple of
like packed lunches and snack time and going to Phillies games,
Tasty Cakes has some interesting civil rights backstory.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh really, I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
A Baptist minister named Reverend Leon Sullivan organized a boycott
against Tasty Cake Company in the sixties to improve job
opportunities for African Americans. And wow, yeah, so you know,
tasty cakes were very popular in African American neighborhoods, right.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
They were in the black owned.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Grocery stores, and people were really eating them a lot,
you know, and the company hired a lot of black employees. However,
it restricted them. They really didn't give them the opportunities
that they should have been getting. So they boycott and
they finally negotiated better terms for black employees, and the
black driver started getting fixed routes, and you know, black
(05:08):
women were able to take positions that were reserved for
white women. And you know, all the facilities got desegregated.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And I didn't realize any of that. I was just
a little kid in that little packet. So the two
pack is how they sold them. And it was at
a black owned corner store called Scotti's. You had to
go through the school yard, hang a left, and Scotti's
was on the corner. Which was interesting in their time,
was before the time that like you kind of saw
different races owning stores in black neighborhoods.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Oh, interesting, yeah, so like you know, we had black
owned corner stores, right, So Scotti's was like kind of
really like the first person you ever saw as an
entrepreneur who looked like me, right, he owned the store.
Like I didn't know many other people who owned a
store who looked like me that I could touch. That
was like right there, right right. You know, I had
gone on that gone to that store for forever, like
(06:00):
ever since I could remember. But you know, you got
to remember, this is during the time of like crack epidemic, right,
but like also during the time that like as a child,
you got sent to the store to buy cigarettes for
your elders. Oh man, that was why we would go
to the store, and that was the negotiating thing. It
was like, hey, I need you to run to the
store and get some a pack of cigarettes for me.
And then you're like, can I keep the change?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Right? Let me get that tasty cake real quick?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, can I keep the change? And when it was good,
I got a tasty cake. And when it wasn't so good,
but still like you could order like a king. This
is the time they had penny candy. If you roll
up in there with sixty five cents, he was like,
let me get five sweetish fish, let me get some drawbreakers,
let me get three of those, let me get six
of those. Yeah, and then walk out of there with
a bag. And it was like one person, Scottie, who
(06:47):
was like opening all the jars behind the counter and
filling your bag up. And then right right on the
counter whereas a jar of pickle pig feet. Right.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I know all about that. My dad used to come
home with them too.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, well we have to get those two. But it
was just something about that time and era of like
what that reminds me about, right, you know, you walk
through a school yard a playground with you know, concrete syringes,
crack vials, then you get this sketchy little corner that
you would have to go down that was like kind
of the scariest part, and then you would come out
(07:19):
on the other side of the street. And somehow it
was like the first start of my kind of independence, right.
I mean it was in first grade and I was
walking around going to the corner store. It just reminds
me of a lot of like just where I came
from and to realize that, like, if you want to
make a change in your life, I think the easiest
change to make is just to move, even if you
(07:39):
just move to the other side of town. But I
got to see at an earlier age that the world
was just bigger than the place that I came from,
whether it was good or bad.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It's very interesting that someone in the position that you're
currently in that the tasty cake butterscotch crimpet is actually
what brings you back to those humble roots.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It sounds like you have a very vivid memory about.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Too, like humble beginnings, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
You're describing the alley, you're describing surrenas, you're describing seemingly
kind of traumatic things that you were up against in
your life. Correct, But that moment of getting the sixty
five cents and being able to get that tasty cake.
It sounds like it kind of brought you into a
place of happiness a little bit.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
It did. And not to say that I didn't have
a happy childhood, right well, right, it was just where
we were, right and like in that whole thing of like,
you know, I don't reflect much in life because you
can see where it all could go wrong, you know
what I mean. I would probably end up on the
fetal position on the floor, right. But the idea of
it is is that that you could come from where
(08:45):
I come from and do the things that I've done.
There's something about that and tasty Cakes reminds me a
lot of Trenton, which I think really kind of made
me who I am. I think I lived there for
like the first three or four years of my life
and then we end up moving. But I spent every
summer until I was fifteen in trent New Jersey. Right.
It was a big thing for my mother wanted, you know,
really wanted me to know where I come from and
(09:07):
not lose where I came from.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now, were you still a fifteen year old going down
to Scotti's and buying Tasty Cakes or did you.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Evolve Absolutely you were. Yeah, you know, we still go
to Scotti's. We didn't have to ask for the change,
but we would still go over to Scotti's and Scotty
still owned it. I think he retired recently. But it
was just one of those things that you learned so
much by being there, you know, like being Streetsmark, like
just kind of understanding your roots and under who you
come from, especially when you're putting in the world where
(09:37):
I was the only person who looked like me ninety
eight percent of the time and the rest of my life,
right yeah, and so kind of understanding that, like, Okay,
this is where you come from. You're in this world
and you can be who you want to be, but
like also know that you come from these people.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I have a similar kind of nostalgic energy when it
comes to vending machine hunt.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Oh my god, those are the best. I'm telling your.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Vending machine honey Buns is probably like my crimpet is
to you because it you know, at the time when
I was exposed to them, it was kind of the
same thing. I mean, you know, my parents had food
stamps and I used to have to get like the
free lunch tickets, but I was embarrassed to get them
because everyone would know them poor. So sometimes I literally
just wouldn't get my lunch ticket just to avoid that shame,
because like it's a whole process, it's a different line,
(10:28):
the ticket looks different, like everyone.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Just knows you broke.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So I would scrape up change and just go get
honey buns from the vending machine just to get something
to eat. So they didn't start when I was at school,
so you know, and I've recreated honey buns like it's
it's just it's so great to get this recipe because
I was like, man, I'm not the only one like
you would think my man with the Pinot Noir and
the Oregan Vineyard, I was like reading about it.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
She was like, man, this man really likes burgers.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I bet he's gonna hit me some burger and I'm
gonna have to make like a soured obrioche.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Bun and really has it up.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And but when you hit me with it, and I
was like, you just like me, man, I'm straight up
thinking about honey buns most of the time. Yeah, we're
really gonna kind of dive into what I brought to you.
And I know, you know, these usually come into two
pac I think I brought you like seven on a
paper plate in a zip lock bag.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
But let's talk about what you what do you taste?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
What do you smell when you eat a tasty cake,
butterscotch crimp?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
It.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I think for me it was like you would open
the bag that would beat a little bit of the frosting,
so you smell like the sweet cream. Yeah, but it
was like confectionery, so he'd like smelled really sweet and
very dense, and then it's like you open it up
and then it's moist. The cake on the bottom is
really moist, which is kind of weird to think that,
like it's not made with good stuff, right, No, but
(11:41):
it tastes so good.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But you know that it used to be.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Actually, I think that they at the beginning were using
sugar cane and cocoa from the Ivory coasts and like
vanilla from Madagascar and cinnamon from Indonesia. But as scale happened,
you know, as they kind of got bigger, I think
that's when like you know, yellow dye or six started
coming into play, or xanthem gum or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But it was you know, and then it was like
that first bite, right, and then you get a little
bit of the you get a little bit of the
butterscotch cream that gets stuck in the front part of
my teeth. I mean, it was just like it was
such a joy, and you know, you would eat them
a certain way. I would take one bite from the
other side, I turn around, take a bite from the
other side, and then I would turn.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
It really yeah why, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I don't know, because I was just a kid. I
mean I think I was trying to take as many
bites as I could to make it last.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Oh, okay, there were.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Two of them. So I would take a bite like
you know, so it's like they're like rectangles, right, So
I'd take a bite off the top, like from the front,
and then I'd turn around take a bite off the back,
and then I'd take a bite off the side. What
somehow it made it take longer. I don't know. I
was just a little kid.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And it sounds like it was almost like a ritual too. Yeah,
it was that much of a comfort that you developed
some kind of meditation with your with your Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, and then if your cousins were around, like they
would try to finagu out of.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
One good old cousins.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Huh, you're like, you didn't go to Scotti's. I went
all the way over there, Dude, you didn't go there.
I asked you if you wanted to come with me.
You didn't want to come with me. So you get
none of these, but I'll give you sweetish fish. I
gave you sweetish fish.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I got those friend nickels.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
So there was always a negotiation. Yeah, And so it
was that kind of thing of like it just reminds
me of so much diving into these things, you know,
treating it like it was caviar in a way, like
you know how some people would treat it in that
way of like it's like very precious. And it was
like a kind of a serious and a fun thing
for me.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Wow, that boy said tasty cakes is like caviard. That's so,
you know, I got this box of tasty cakes. I
come home, you know, I tell Bridget, I'm like, yo, Like,
to be honest, my first reaction, I ate a pack.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I had a whole pack. I just like inhale them basically, okay,
And I don't know if you're gonna.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Get upset about this. I thought they tasted like Twinkies.
At first, Okay, I thought there was kind of a
Twinkie vibe happening with the cake. Then the ice started.
It's like in the aftertaste that butter scotch. I'm starting
to feel it a little bit. I'm like, okay, yeah,
so I need to make a simple maybe some powdered sugar,
brown sugar and butter to make that kind of butterscotch
(14:12):
situation on the stove. So I heated that up. I
just kind of went off the cuff. Okay, I don't
make that many cakes. I do have a few in
my new cookbook, but like, I'm not you know, I'm
more of the bread guy to savory the lamination or whatever.
So I was like, all right, I got my cake game,
and I was like, I'm just gonna go with the
simple vanilla cake. I mean, I don't have you know,
the ingredients list on the box is like this big.
(14:33):
I was scared to try to recreate that package flavor.
You know about that package flavor, Like I've made honey
buns from scratch and they taste good, but I'm like,
is it tastes like the package vending machine honey bun?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
That's been sitting there for ten months.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
No, so and that's what required taste. That's that is
definitely a required Like I like that, right, you know
what I mean? Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, of course you would have to.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Our doctors don't like that. We love it, they do not,
But I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It's the best. It is absolutely the best.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
This is the absolute best. So I made the yellow cake.
I did the simple you know, dryes wets. Oh no,
I didn't do the simple action.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No you didn't. You put your foot in it.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I did. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I whipped some egg whites up and added some cream
of tartar and folded that into the batter to try
to like get something dense but light at the same time.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I iced it.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I put it in the fridge. I actually got a
DM from someone when I posted the box of Tasty
Cakes crimpets, and they were like, are you from Philly?
And I was like, I know, why would I be
from Philly because I have this box and they're like, man,
the secret my mom had was to put them in
the fridge and I would eat them the next day,
And so that stuck with my mind. I was like,
(15:43):
sure I could make this, ice it and cut them
and then bring them, or I could let it sit
in the fridge for a bit to kind of let
them solidify within themselves, let that icing kind of harden,
because you know, when you get in the package, it's
kind of like a stiff icing.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So that was the approach.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I cut them into the weird shape that you know,
there's no molds for this. They have a monopoly, I
guess on the mold for this. I think that's actually
a really clever business model.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, the very distinctives.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, it's distinctive. Nothing looks like this. And then I
took the train. I found you in the street in
front of your restaurant, Kingfisher. I mean you came running out,
and the time has come to figure out did I
bring you back? And and you know, it's called the
proost effect. When someone tastes foods that they've eaten when
they were younger, it's an emotional response.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Correct, These memories just return. It's not you don't try
to do it. It just happens.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, it happened in Ratichewy with the food critic it
did you remember heat the ratichuy?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I remember, Yo. That boy was like I remember when
we was broken. We just had zucchini and tomato. It's
just straight up delicious.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And he was on his bike. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So the world wants to know, you know what I'm saying.
The listeners want to know. Brian Ford wants to know.
Bridge Kenna wants to know. I'm sure the producers that
are sitting there listening to just want to know too.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Andre.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Did I nail it? Did you go back? Where did
you go when you took your bites?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I went back. You totally took me back. You nailed it. Yes,
all the flavors were there. The flavors are there. The
texture was a little off, but like okay, textually yeah,
but you you know, but it couldn't be right. I
would never expect it to be like that package thing
right right, but literally like in Scotty standing in the store,
right in the middle and Tasty Cakes used to be
(17:29):
on the left hand side. It was one all that
went straight down the middle. On the right hand side
was a glass counter and Scotty would be on the
right like standing there and that's where I was, right
back there and it's kind of looking around and to
be honest, I haven't had one, ah shit, maybe fifteen
years Wow, Yeah, it's been quite some time, even though
(17:51):
I'm back on the East Coast.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Did I just rekindle your creative growth?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I mean this, even though the shape wasn't like right,
but like I got what you were trying to do.
Like if I just walked in and saw them on
the ground or like saw them on someone's table, I
would be like, hey, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That highest compliment of all time.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
If I saw this on the ground out in the streets,
I would think they're tasty.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
K on someone's table. I would totally know what that was.
And yeah, I would ask you if I could have
one or sneak in, like lick some of the frosting
off the side.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, listen, man, I got extra frosting in the fridge,
not even joking.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
If you want to come over.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
We got some fun content when I brought these taste
case for the listeners. You guys can check that out
onto social media channels and all that kind of thing,
and stay tuned. Towards the end of this episode, we're
gonna circle back to these crimpits. We're gonna play a
little game. It's gonna be really fun, and you don't
want to miss out on that.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
We'll be right back after this. All right, all right,
let's just jump back in. You told me you're growing
up in Trenton. You returned every summer to continue to
(19:12):
reconnect with your roots. What about how did you get
into wine? I mean, I know that you you know,
worked in finance for a bit. I can relate. I
used to be a CPA. But give me your you know,
how did it really go down with you to kind
of use that tasty cake tradition, that habit, that meditation
and transform it into this career.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, I had worked in restaurants. I always worked in
food service. So my first job when I was sixteen,
I worked at McDonald's. I worked at like some really
famous restaurants.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, McDonald's super famous.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I worked to fine dining, and then, you know, going
to college, it was just more like waiting tables at
a restaurant. I was working at Red Lobster Out a
good stuff, yep, you know. And I think what I
learned about all that, I think one, you know, the
restaurant business is pretty transient, right, especially in the front
of the house. Everybody's going on to bigger and better things, right,
and generally speaking, being a waiter is not your bigger
(20:07):
and better thing, and I think it came time for
me for my bigger and better thing. I end up
getting a job at City Corps Investment Services, and you know,
I was out, and when I left, it was just
so funny. I was just miserable. I just sat and
answered the phones and man, you know, I was a
licensed stockbroker, but we couldn't give any advice. So basically
(20:27):
we were just working with high net individuals. So anybody
who had over three hundred thousand in accounts with City Bank,
they would pick up the phone and they would just
ask the stock quotes. I mean, it was before a
smartphone came along, right, Right.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Was that your first experience learning what it's like to
be the only person that looks like you in a
workplace or was it diverse?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I mean what was No?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I was the only person that there weren't that many
people that look like me. But that's been all my life,
Like where I went to school, you know, hobbies, you know,
like all the white kids used to fight over wanted
me to stay at a night at their houses on
the weekend. Right, you know what I mean? It is
like you were so a hot commodity in that in
that sense wanted to hang out and it was just
funny to be able to, you know, see the differences
(21:09):
and something that really plugs me to this day of
like my guilt of working really hard.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It's one of those things where you know, you would
go and stay to night at someone's home and they
their house and all the things that were very different
than when I had. They had more, but their fathers
were never around and it wasn't it wasn't like their
fathers were gone. It's like their dads were always on
a business trip or something. And it just made me
always think that, like wow, like maybe if my father
(21:34):
was gone, we would have more kind of thing you know,
like stupid things when you're when you're a child, right,
And somehow I adopted that to my whole life, Like
you know, I'm going to therapy about it, but like
that's what I thought that I wanted as a child, right,
you know. I mean I spent a decade on the
road building a business. You know, I think I spent
a lot of time with my children, but like literally
like home for Friday night, dinner, Saturday, take them the
(21:57):
sports classes, Sunday take out the trash, Monday get back.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And this was for ten years straight, for ten years.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
For a decade. I mean we spent this summer is
like we took three months off at a time, like
we did other things. But I've always been the only
person that looks like me. There's something like that I
had to be comfortable with, and to be honest, I
was right, like I felt like that was the other
side of diversity.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, meaning that.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, like like I could have just stayed in Trent
and hung out with people who look like me. But
the point that we, my parents and I guess me,
were willing to sacrifice being the only people who look
like us in the room. I think that really enriched
my life in a way that that it maybe it
didn't for other people I grew up.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
With, And it is enriching. I swear we're almost cut
from the same plot. Not only do I relate to this,
but it's like I really lived it as well. But
do you ever find do you ever feel like you
have to have different versions of yourself in order to
function in different environments.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean to tell you a little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You know, I walked into an interview for a Big
four accounting firm, and I'm the only person that looks
like me. So my name is Brian Ford and different voice,
and you know, and it turns into a whole It
kind of turns into a whole game. And then when
I get home, it's almost like I have to like
take that costume off, hang it up in the closet
and give myself a minute to relax.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So do you also, I don't know. I mean maybe
you still.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Do it, but did you have to do that in
those beginning days to kind of get traction in the
in the wine industry?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Correct? I think it's just all about knowing who your
audience is. Yeah, I don't think that it's like faking
the funk or whatever they want to call it. No,
it's known who your audience. Like you get on stage
and you say, okay, so who's in the crowd today?
So all right, I'm going to focus my talk so
it's more poignant to their point of view. Right, That's
how I look at it. Right, So like I can
talk to anybody I know how to like, Hey, thereose
(23:42):
guys shooting dice in front of my house. I don't
like that, So I know how to go out there
and say what I need to say to them, and
then I know what I need to say, you know,
when I'm having a conversation with a fortune five hundred ceo. Yes,
And so I totally had to do that. And so
by the time I got to like finance, that part
didn't bother me. It was just more like I thought
that was going to be great, and yeah, I achieved
this thing, and blah blah blah. I guess what I
(24:04):
realized was that my bigger and better thing was right
there underneath my nose. Right, Like I enjoyed talking to people,
like walking up to a group of strangers. There was
something about like the day, knowing that it would start
in the same way, but like the journey within those
hours was totally different depending on who came in right,
And so ultimately I was laid off and pretty traumatic,
(24:27):
I think in a way of like man, fuck, Like
I did all this thing to get to this place,
and now I'm actually going back. But I took my
time because there were severance and honestly, I was watching
old episodes of Fraser that really just invited me to
have wine in my life. Really, it was never oh Fraser,
I'll do this. I'm gonna build this company and do
(24:48):
all the things that I've done. It was just like, hey,
they're having a great time, Like maybe you should enjoy wine.
Man and Fraser is like two pompous brothers who were
basically characters of themselves. Euse right. Wine always seem from
the outside looking in as like this pretty pretentious thing.
You know, people wearing ascots and convertibles, well manicured lawns
(25:10):
and all those kind of things. And when you don't
see anybody who looks like you, most of the time,
you don't think it's for you. But I've always found
that like humor was always a great foil to pretension
and so few humor. By watching that show, I felt
like it gave me some comedic antidotes to kind of
like protect myself. And it actually gave me the courage
(25:32):
to walk into a wine store for the first time. Really,
And that was the start of it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
At that point, you had never even walked into a
wine store or had no desire for it until you
saw the dudes on Fraser getting down with a nice glass.
What were they drinking?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Correct? I mean everything? Well, I mean I think it
started with sherry.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Oh, sherry, Okay, yeah, that was my mom's things.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
She's like, man, like you drink like an old white man.
What's happening words?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So, I think the only time I've ever said sherry
was in like the turtle Soup at Commander's Palace.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
In New Orleans or something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It's the whole thing, and so on one of the episodes,
like when it first starts, Niles comes over, Fraser says, hey,
would you fancy a scotch? He goes ah, and then
he says, how about a sherry? And then that's when
it started. So it was like from sherry and then
it was just like, you know, they were drinking Goovirz demeanor.
They were drinking sansee, they were drinking like gaya like
(26:25):
you know, they were drinking some of the best wines.
You know. How I found out nineteen sixty one in
Bordeaux was a revered vintage was through that show, right,
So it taught me a lot about like the sancera
saviion blanc. It taught me a lot by watching it,
but also just piqued my interest and just like kind
of got me interested drinking on my free time. And
so I would go into the line shop and I'd
(26:46):
be like, Hey, I got twelve bucks, what do you
got for me today? And so it was always a dial.
Like in a conversation with whine people, what you realize
is that they love to talk and they love to
share the information, right, Like, I'm gonna keep talking today,
I'm gonna just be gapping, right, Why.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
That's why you're here?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I mean, so it sounds like what you're basically telling
me is that through your career and finance, albeit you know,
maybe it was brief or not, through watching Fraser, through
learning wine, through how you grew up, you've developed the
ability to walk outside and tell dudes playing a dice
game to get off your block while you go get
a tasty cake and go back inside to a zoom
(27:23):
call with like CEO of like major corporation that you're
like closing a deal with.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, you're ready. There's levels to the ship.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
There's levels to this shit.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Levels you got to tell people. And then I think
people talk about like catching the wine bug, right, And
that was it. And so I went back to work
in restaurants, and I started to work at restaurants with
better wine list, and it was just like I want
to do this right.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
But it wasn't just restaurants.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I mean you you were at some pretty high high
end places.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Huh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well before that, like right at the beginning, like I
got into wine. In less than eighteen months, I was
a sall year at the French Laundry. I had won
a competition. I took the job as some yea at
the French Laundry. I moved to California and had never
worked in a fine dining restaurant, so there was a
lot of stuff going on there. It was a really
fun time. It was a really hard time. It's like
(28:16):
on Friday where he's like, how can you get fired
on your day off? Shit would happen on your day off,
and like somehow you were responsible, right because maybe you
didn't do you know. It was just a weird thing,
like everybody held themselves accountable. It was one of the
wildest and crazy places that I ever worked. Everybody cared
the attention to detail. It was the first time in
(28:36):
my life where up until that point I thought a
hard day meant that, like you came home and your
feet hurt and your back hurt. Right, not only did
your feet and your back hurt, like your brain was mushed.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Your brain is just exploding.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, you just had so much. The expectations were so high,
but it was just really cool and I felt like
it was something that I really needed. I don't think
I would be doing what I'm doing today if I
didn't have that experience and to know that, like you,
that you could go to the mountaintop and it didn't
look the way that everybody thought it should look, right,
meaning that like I worked at the French laundry and
(29:08):
like you had to walk outside through the rain or
through the elements to the chef's garage to go get
like an eighteen hundred dollars bottle of champagne sitting on
a rusty grate inside of refrigerator in his garage. And
that's what made it great. What makes great restaurants are
in those great experiences are the things that you have
to overcome that you can't see, and that's what made
(29:28):
it great. And that's what I tell all the young
kids now that they think everything has to be shiny
and new for it to be that, and it's like, no,
it's about a belief. Service is something that you do.
Hospitality is the reason why you do it? That has
kind of been the driving force. And then I moved
to New York and I ran the beverage department at
per Se for about three years. I met my wife
who worked at per Se. We had a secret romance.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
House secret like walk in freezer secret or no, no,
that could never happen like that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
We'd be at a bar, pone it up to the bar.
You know, I'm all in her ear, whisper and sweet
not things in her ear, and then the front door opens.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
You had to be on.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, I had a hat on, and the chef walks
in and I'm like, oh shit. So now I'm on
the other side of the bar. I'm backed up with
him playing. I'm on the ground hiding. The bar room
is like, sir, you can't be back here, you can't
be back here. And I was like, I'm looking for
my contacts and I'm looking around and then I look
up and he's like, you're wearing glasses. I was like,
(30:25):
oh shit. So then I'd come back over, you know,
the chef would pass. But it was like many moments
like that, and you know, eventually then my girlfriend, she
ended up leaving. She wrote a book that wasn't authorized.
A New York Times most notable book called Service included,
which was a memoir of sorts of a twenty seven
year old Ivy League educated woman who found herself at
(30:46):
the most anticipated restaurant opening in New York history. Takes
you behind the scenes about how, you know, Thomas hired
you know, retired ballerina to teach us how to walk
through the dining room. We had seminars from people all
over the world. It was just like, that is nuts.
It was just like a really crazy experience. And then
the second half of the book is she meets a
(31:07):
dark and mysterious and handsome.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I wonder who that could be. And then it made.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
It uncomfortable at work. She was considered press, so in
our manager's meeting, she was on the agenda. So it
made it a little tough.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
You had a bounce.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I think it's so funny. It made me make
a decision, a hard decision that I probably would have
never made. It was good there. I would have stayed there.
People don't give up those jobs. But like also I
realized that like you have to be able to be
willing to give up the good to get the great
and this was a really good job. I just kept
saying to myself, this can't be as good as it
(31:46):
gets for me.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, And you know, they don't teach you that kind
of mentality, Like that's not something that can be taught.
In my opinion, I'm starting to learn through my own
career that those moments where you feel like you're at
the top of the mountain, you feel like you're doing it.
You feel like it's oh, no one gives up these jobs.
No one doesn't do this, and you step back and
you're like, but I got other shit to do. This
(32:07):
is great, but I know that I'm capable of more,
and so I'm still you know, like you said, there's
levels like I feel like I'm seeing three steps, four steps,
ten steps ahead, even though I'm like thriving right. And
sometimes you do have to ground yourself and say, hol
on a second, let me raise a glass to myself
and take a night off and actually appreciate everything that
I've been doing.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But then the next day you just jump right back.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You get back recorded.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So you started jumping on the airplane. I'm assuming this
is when you started getting out to the West Coast
and exploring your own business.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Ventures.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, that was the idea, you know, it was stop
and start For like three years. I had to humble
myself and take jobs and consult But it was in
twenty ten I left consulting and working for other people
and that's when I really got on the road. And
so it was that decade from twenty ten to twenty twenty,
just traveling all over the world. And it felt like
every time I left, like I was giving myself a
(32:58):
raise every time, like we were built something. And I
spent a lot of time in restaurants this time around,
as an entrepreneur, I was the one who had to
pick up the check.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Stay, Flake will be right back. Enough of that, Enough
of that, Back to the interview. I mean, on the
(33:33):
wine side, I feel like you've definitely changed people's lives.
By people's, I mean the two people in this kitchen,
Brian Ford and Bridget Kenna, who drink the opp like
every night, other people's pino.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Correct correct other people's.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
You've got restaurants and other endeavors.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I mean specific You've got a son's handbar, You've got
chickeny bread, which you know I'm already talking to your
baker giving him a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Because he's like, why is this, Why is this guy
saying we're doing a pop up?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
What?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
What's good?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No, he loves it. And that's the thing, right, Like
the thing is, it's like it's not about me. This
guy is talented, and like he should be meeting people
like you. He should be just understanding and being more
immersed in like his field and like no, and prominent
people and people should be talking to him. And like,
you know, our chef. I feel the same way. Like
to me, is just really to help them get their
shine on right and to do something great, right.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So yeah, we started. I started a company called Mason
to Our Wines two thousand and seven, all based out
of the Wymmett Valley. We sell wines in almost every
single state in about twenty two countries. And the thought
was like, just successible wines that kind of over deliver.
We don't take the wine the packaging. I don't take
myself too serious. I let the wine inside the bottle
do all the talking. You know that they're not over
(34:49):
adulterated with oak, they're not manipulated with fillers and colors
and stuff like that, you know, additives. And so that
was kind of the goal that was approachable, and then
it just so happened that on a re shelf under
twenty five dollars was like this sweet spot.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Oof, it's so sweet. It's incredibly sweet.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, And like so the price point we always felt
over deliver it. I think we've raised our prices once
in ten years. Yeah, and that's me just wanting it,
like taking less just so that we can still be,
you know, on that playing field. And then you know,
for me, packaging was always interesting and fun. We chose
black and white because it was stark. It reminded me
a lot of it of a child shopping in the
(35:26):
grocery store. You know, we used to do those real
shopping chips where you dread it, you're like, oh my god,
and then you went up every single while with your mother.
And then every I was more like a you know,
a mosaic of colors. And then you would hit this
one aisle which was called a generic aisle. And it's
before the grocery stores had any market. It was called generic.
So everything was packaged in white and then they had
(35:46):
black letters on it and it would just say beer
or to say potato chips.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Wow, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, And it was from that I designed the labels myself.
I couldn't afford a designer or anything like that. And
that was it.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
You've got, you know, these wonderful new restaurants and this bakery.
We'll make sure we put all the details on the socials.
But on one final note, in terms of wine, I
have a little game I want.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
To play with you.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
All right, We're playing a little flaky game here. Okay,
so very simple, and I hope, I hope hope were
the first people that have asked you this. But what
wine would you pair with?
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Tasty cakes?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Butterscotch, crimpet ooh ooh oh yeah I like this.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you know, I would have to think a little
bit in detail, but like, first off the top of
the dome, it would probably just be champagne.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Oh, shoot, off the top of the dome, it's champagne.
Is it a ground crew?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I would probably do more like a special club, something
that's like heavily toasted in oak maybe, so I would
probably do something more like krug with that. So it's
pretty powerful through it's like oak aging, but like the
bubbles to act more like a scrubbing agent to kind
of really help clean some of.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
That butterscut, scrub that frosting off your teeth.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh yeah, you know it's funny, right because when I
when I first got into wine and we talked about
food and wine pairing, like I just never knew what
people were talking about, right, and so I was like
trying to figure out a way how to explain it
to people. And to me, it's always been to reset
your palate back to zero, so the first bite taste
as good as the last bite got you. It's like
(37:26):
to cleanse the palate and to reset your palate at
to zero. So maybe they meet each other here, or
they can offset where you do something that's high acid
to cut through something rich and fatty, or you do
creamy with creamy kind of thing here. I think we
would probably we would match more of I'm getting too
technically we matched more, You're not. I love this the
creaminess and the richness of Koog champagne with that denseness
(37:48):
of the cake and the frosting, with this bubbles and
acid that kind of really cleansed the palette at the end.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yo, fam, that's wild. You broke down. You broke down
a champagne pairing tasty cakes butterscotch crumpets. I think our
listeners are gonna really love that. I really want them
to try it themselves. I am probably trying to try
it myself. Listen, before we get you out of here,
there's a couple of important things that we want to
touch on. You know, in the Flaky Biscuit podcast, we're
always not just talking about food and nostalgia and how
(38:17):
something like a tasty cake can really mold your feelings
and emotions and propel you into success. It's all about
achieving that success and then finding some community oriented goals
to immerse yourself in. Andrea, I know you talked about
the food bank, but I would love it if you
could tell me and my listeners a little bit more
about what this project is, why it's important to you,
(38:40):
and how it's going to positively affect the community that
it involves.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Well, I just must preface it, but like this is
all new for me. I don't come from a place
of philanthropy, right. And Also, I think that most of
the time, when you think of it as like having
so much money that you give it away, it comes
with time, giving of your time in yourself and so
correct that's what's been interesting and new for me. Leslie Gordon,
who just recently took over the food Bank, just recently
(39:06):
met her and so we've been working on ways to
really kind of be able to work together. It is
the largest food bank on the East Coast. It's like
providing meals for inner city youth children and people of need.
There's a pantry where they have distribution where families can
go and pick up meals. I'm just excited to be
a part of it. I don't know how, you know,
in what way, but you know, being able to give
(39:27):
my time. I think the notion is that we know
somebody in our lives who's not getting enough to eat. Yeah,
and even like when you talked about the honeymuton, so
you wouldn't start like we know people like a young Brian.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
And I think that in our mind, we think that
it affects certain people, and it affects a lot more
people than we see. And hopefully, like through the work
with food Bank, that I could just raise a lot
more awareness of it and we can help people not
go to sleep hungry.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I literally had to kind of hold back a slight
deer there honestly though, because it you know when you
when I think about man.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I get to deepen this and I'll break down.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
But I mean I think about those days where you know,
my dad had to literally go find food from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yeah, and you're so funny, what does that even mean?
Like for some people say go find food, You're like,
what is that?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Literally?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
We were fortunate enough to where it's you know, it
wasn't to the point where you know, we're digging in.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
The streets or something like that for scrapes.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, and it's not it wasn't like that, but
it you know, literal like where are we getting a
loaf of bread for the week? I mean, you know,
my dad would drive or take a bus miles to
find churches that had just a couple of boxes of
Hamburger helper, a couple cans of Campbell soup, and he
would kind of just make this collection of food and listen.
You know, I'm gonna definitely sidebar with you on this
(40:44):
food bank situation. I'm here as well in the city,
and I would love to get involved as well in
any way that I can. I really want our listeners
to also participate. You know, we'll have information for people
to to kind of understand exactly what this is. Yeah,
very important, and it's it's I like how you prefaced
it with like, I'm new at this. We really appreciate that,
(41:06):
and I'm sure that we'll take that a long way.
That's going to be clutch. I'm definitely going to hit
you up about what I can do to help and
facilitate that movement.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I'm thinking about I'm going to give some bread away.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
When you said something like, oh, like just to get
a loaf of bread further week, I mean, we can
do that all day long.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Whatever it is. Man, let's make some loaves and let's
let's get some people fed.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Andre Mac, the absolute renaissance man, possibly one of my
new mentors. I don't know, and I don't think I
told people how we actually kind of met. I mean,
oh yeah, following on social media this, you know, you're
the wine guy on YouTube and all this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And I made a rap song about croissants. It was funny.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You reposted and you're like, Yo, this is crazy, and
I was like, yo, you should come have pizza in
my backyard. And you got the energy. You're like, Okay,
I bet I'll be there.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, And I've been following you for a while. It
was great to find and connect and here we are,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
But you know, as people listen to this, you know,
check out Kingfish, or check out Maison Noir, check out
all the wine, check out Andre Mac.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It's been such a pleasure, my friend. Hope you have
a great one.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Thanks mam, you too.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Cheers, thanks for listening. Fam.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you want to make my version of tasty Cakes
butterscotch crump it's for yourself. Find the recipe on Shondaland
dot com and you already know. I want to know
how it goes. I want to see your bakes. I
want to see how beautiful your tasty cakes come out.
Tag me at Artists and Brian tag Andre Mac. That's
at Andre H Mac tag Shondaland, of course, and we.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Want to see.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
We want to see y'all cutting up the little tasty
cake crumpet shape. Get onto the discord and talk about it.
These recipes are collective, you know, Let's make them. Let's
make them better. Honestly, the advice I can give you
for this, make sure your batter is not layer too thick.
You want to nice and thin so that you don't get.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
A tasty cake that's too tall. You know what I'm saying.
You got to replicate that tasty cake shape.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Don't forget to look up your local food bank at
Feedingamerica dot org, where you can donate and volunteer. You
can find all the websites and handles I've mentioned in
the show notes for this episode. If you like Flaky Biscuit,
rate it, review it five stars, ten stars. All right,
this is the best food podcast ever exist. Make sure
that you let everyone know that. Let's blow it up, man,
(43:24):
Let's make a bit. Flaky Biscuit is executive produced by
Sandy Bailey, Alex Alja, Lauren Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our creative producer is Bridget Kenna and our editor and
producer is Nicholas Harder.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
With music by Crucial.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Recipes from Flaky Biscuit can be found each week on
Shondaland dot com. Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel for
more Flaky Biscuit content. Flaky Biscuit is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
(44:03):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. We're really doing it, huh making it Welcome
to the Flaky Biscuit Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Ford,
also known as Ours and Brian. You know that I
(00:20):
write cookbooks. You know that I've done TV shows, but
most importantly, I just love to cook and bake for others.
Each episode, we're cooking delicious morsels of nostalgia, meals and
recipes that have comforted and guided our guests to success.
So that means each episode, all right, I'm creating a
recipe from scratch, fem. I'm talking about from scratch, literally
(00:42):
hand delivering it to my guests, Recipes that hopefully you're
also making at home, maybe giving me advice on where
I went right or wrong, how to make it better,
How did it taste, how did it smell? And speaking
of tastes and smell y'all, our guest today is no
stranger to picking up flavors and scents, so I have
my work cut out for me, to be completely honest.
(01:03):
He's an award winning Somalier wine maker, entrepreneur who owns restaurants,
a bakery. I mean he's milling. He about to be
milling flour out there in Brooklyn, you know what I mean.
And not only that, he was the first black person
to win the title of Best Young Somalier in America.
I am so excited and thrilled to have my new
friend Andre Mack on the podcast. How you doing Andre,
(01:27):
yeay yay.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm doing great, man, I'm doing great. I'm busy, I'm
excited trying to get the pandemic behind us, and just
really excited to welcome people back. And I think that
we should treat everybody with grace.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It was really challenging, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, it was very very challenging.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Speaking of grace, man, you know, we kind of have
been linking up. You've been treating me pretty good. I
just ate at your new restaurant, Kingfisher. I just tried
some of your new rye whiskey.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
To see yesterday. It tasted delicious, man. I was really
really excited to be there.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thanks for coming through, man. Yeah. It's always one of
those things where when you breathe life into something, something
that starts in your mind and on paper, and you
kind of push it around and and then it's the label,
and then you know, finally, you know, something like yesterday,
which is the launch of my new company called Ryan
Soun's Whiskey, that you put it out in the world
and you let other people taste it, and you know,
(02:21):
it becomes a lie. People start to say the name.
You know, it kind of freaks me out a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I always kind of compare it slightly to maybe someone
reciting your lyrics when you're on stage, and it's a
little bit of that, right.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, Yeah, you know, I can definitely relate when I
see people posting recipes from my cookbook two years later,
I'm like this.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That is that still on people's shelves. Yeah, that kind
of surreal moment. But listen, we're going to talk a.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Lot about all of your endeavors, but we're starting this
episode off talking about how you got there, right, Yeah,
and it seems to me you got there with the
very specific snack that kind of kick started something. All right,
So we're gonna dive deep into this. So let's let
us know what you had me bake.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So my parents, we never really baked anything, and so
it was really interesting when you came to me and
I try to think of something from my childhood very
early on, and it was it's called a tasty cake.
It's a butterscotch crumpet. It's pretty much regional. So I
was born in Trenton, I spent the first fifteen summers
of my life in Trenton, and it was just something
that was very special about that thing. I didn't get
(03:25):
to have it a lot, and so it was kind
of like a reward in a way for going to
the store for my elders. If I found some change somewhere.
That's something that I would indulge in. And I lived
all over the world with my parents, and it was
something that you couldn't get anywhere else, like you had
to be there, and that's what made it special.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I'd never heard of them before. Obviously with that kind
of story, it's clearly a pretty special thing that you
were eating all the time. But when I talked to
you about tasty cakes butterscotch crumpets.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I was like, literally like what is that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I was on like Amazon trying to find them, and
it was like eat dollars a box or something, and
I was wait. So when I got some for the
first time, but for those that don't know, Tasty Baking
Company is actually who makes tasty cakes, crimpets and different things.
Originally from Philadelphia, I think in the nineteen nineteen fourteen.
And I don't know if you know much about the
(04:18):
history of Tasty Cakes, but besides being a staple of
like packed lunches and snack time and going to Phillies games,
Tasty Cakes has some interesting civil rights backstory.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh really, I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
A Baptist minister named Reverend Leon Sullivan organized a boycott
against Tasty Cake Company in the sixties to improve job
opportunities for African Americans. And wow, yeah, so you know,
tasty cakes were very popular in African American neighborhoods, right.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
They were in the black owned.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Grocery stores, and people were really eating them a lot,
you know, and the company hired a lot of black employees. However,
it restricted them. They really didn't give them the opportunities
that they should have been getting. So they boycott and
they finally negotiated better terms for black employees, and the
black driver started getting fixed routes, and you know, black
(05:08):
women were able to take positions that were reserved for
white women. And you know, all the facilities got desegregated.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And I didn't realize any of that. I was just
a little kid in that little packet. So the two
pack is how they sold them. And it was at
a black owned corner store called Scotti's. You had to
go through the school yard, hang a left, and Scotti's
was on the corner. Which was interesting in their time,
was before the time that like you kind of saw
different races owning stores in black neighborhoods.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Oh, interesting, yeah, so like you know, we had black
owned corner stores, right, So Scotti's was like kind of
really like the first person you ever saw as an
entrepreneur who looked like me, right, he owned the store.
Like I didn't know many other people who owned a
store who looked like me that I could touch. That
was like right there, right right. You know, I had
gone on that gone to that store for forever, like
(06:00):
ever since I could remember. But you know, you got
to remember, this is during the time of like crack epidemic, right,
but like also during the time that like as a child,
you got sent to the store to buy cigarettes for
your elders. Oh man, that was why we would go
to the store, and that was the negotiating thing. It
was like, hey, I need you to run to the
store and get some a pack of cigarettes for me.
And then you're like, can I keep the change?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Right? Let me get that tasty cake real quick?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, can I keep the change? And when it was good,
I got a tasty cake. And when it wasn't so good,
but still like you could order like a king. This
is the time they had penny candy. If you roll
up in there with sixty five cents, he was like,
let me get five sweetish fish, let me get some drawbreakers,
let me get three of those, let me get six
of those. Yeah, and then walk out of there with
a bag. And it was like one person, Scottie, who
(06:47):
was like opening all the jars behind the counter and
filling your bag up. And then right right on the
counter whereas a jar of pickle pig feet. Right.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I know all about that. My dad used to come
home with them too.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, well we have to get those two. But it
was just something about that time and era of like
what that reminds me about, right, you know, you walk
through a school yard a playground with you know, concrete syringes,
crack vials, then you get this sketchy little corner that
you would have to go down that was like kind
of the scariest part, and then you would come out
(07:19):
on the other side of the street. And somehow it
was like the first start of my kind of independence, right.
I mean it was in first grade and I was
walking around going to the corner store. It just reminds
me of a lot of like just where I came
from and to realize that, like, if you want to
make a change in your life, I think the easiest
change to make is just to move, even if you
(07:39):
just move to the other side of town. But I
got to see at an earlier age that the world
was just bigger than the place that I came from,
whether it was good or bad.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It's very interesting that someone in the position that you're
currently in that the tasty cake butterscotch crimpet is actually
what brings you back to those humble roots.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It sounds like you have a very vivid memory about.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Too, like humble beginnings, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
You're describing the alley, you're describing surrenas, you're describing seemingly
kind of traumatic things that you were up against in
your life. Correct, But that moment of getting the sixty
five cents and being able to get that tasty cake.
It sounds like it kind of brought you into a
place of happiness a little bit.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
It did. And not to say that I didn't have
a happy childhood, right well, right, it was just where
we were, right and like in that whole thing of like,
you know, I don't reflect much in life because you
can see where it all could go wrong, you know
what I mean. I would probably end up on the
fetal position on the floor, right. But the idea of
it is is that that you could come from where
(08:45):
I come from and do the things that I've done.
There's something about that and tasty Cakes reminds me a
lot of Trenton, which I think really kind of made
me who I am. I think I lived there for
like the first three or four years of my life
and then we end up moving. But I spent every
summer until I was fifteen in trent New Jersey. Right.
It was a big thing for my mother wanted, you know,
really wanted me to know where I come from and
(09:07):
not lose where I came from.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now, were you still a fifteen year old going down
to Scotti's and buying Tasty Cakes or did you.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Evolve Absolutely you were. Yeah, you know, we still go
to Scotti's. We didn't have to ask for the change,
but we would still go over to Scotti's and Scotty
still owned it. I think he retired recently. But it
was just one of those things that you learned so
much by being there, you know, like being Streetsmark, like
just kind of understanding your roots and under who you
come from, especially when you're putting in the world where
(09:37):
I was the only person who looked like me ninety
eight percent of the time and the rest of my life,
right yeah, and so kind of understanding that, like, Okay,
this is where you come from. You're in this world
and you can be who you want to be, but
like also know that you come from these people.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I have a similar kind of nostalgic energy when it
comes to vending machine hunt.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Oh my god, those are the best. I'm telling your.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Vending machine honey Buns is probably like my crimpet is
to you because it you know, at the time when
I was exposed to them, it was kind of the
same thing. I mean, you know, my parents had food
stamps and I used to have to get like the
free lunch tickets, but I was embarrassed to get them
because everyone would know them poor. So sometimes I literally
just wouldn't get my lunch ticket just to avoid that shame,
because like it's a whole process, it's a different line,
(10:28):
the ticket looks different, like everyone.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Just knows you broke.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So I would scrape up change and just go get
honey buns from the vending machine just to get something
to eat. So they didn't start when I was at school,
so you know, and I've recreated honey buns like it's
it's just it's so great to get this recipe because
I was like, man, I'm not the only one like
you would think my man with the Pinot Noir and
the Oregan Vineyard, I was like reading about it.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
She was like, man, this man really likes burgers.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I bet he's gonna hit me some burger and I'm
gonna have to make like a soured obrioche.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Bun and really has it up.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And but when you hit me with it, and I
was like, you just like me, man, I'm straight up
thinking about honey buns most of the time. Yeah, we're
really gonna kind of dive into what I brought to you.
And I know, you know, these usually come into two
pac I think I brought you like seven on a
paper plate in a zip lock bag.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
But let's talk about what you what do you taste?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
What do you smell when you eat a tasty cake,
butterscotch crimp?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
It.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I think for me it was like you would open
the bag that would beat a little bit of the frosting,
so you smell like the sweet cream. Yeah, but it
was like confectionery, so he'd like smelled really sweet and
very dense, and then it's like you open it up
and then it's moist. The cake on the bottom is
really moist, which is kind of weird to think that,
like it's not made with good stuff, right, No, but
(11:41):
it tastes so good.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But you know that it used to be.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Actually, I think that they at the beginning were using
sugar cane and cocoa from the Ivory coasts and like
vanilla from Madagascar and cinnamon from Indonesia. But as scale happened,
you know, as they kind of got bigger, I think
that's when like you know, yellow dye or six started
coming into play, or xanthem gum or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But it was you know, and then it was like
that first bite, right, and then you get a little
bit of the you get a little bit of the
butterscotch cream that gets stuck in the front part of
my teeth. I mean, it was just like it was
such a joy, and you know, you would eat them
a certain way. I would take one bite from the
other side, I turn around, take a bite from the
other side, and then I would turn.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
It really yeah why, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I don't know, because I was just a kid. I
mean I think I was trying to take as many
bites as I could to make it last.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Oh, okay, there were.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Two of them. So I would take a bite like
you know, so it's like they're like rectangles, right, So
I'd take a bite off the top, like from the front,
and then I'd turn around take a bite off the back,
and then I'd take a bite off the side. What
somehow it made it take longer. I don't know. I
was just a little kid.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And it sounds like it was almost like a ritual too. Yeah,
it was that much of a comfort that you developed
some kind of meditation with your with your Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, and then if your cousins were around, like they
would try to finagu out of.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
One good old cousins.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Huh, you're like, you didn't go to Scotti's. I went
all the way over there, Dude, you didn't go there.
I asked you if you wanted to come with me.
You didn't want to come with me. So you get
none of these, but I'll give you sweetish fish. I
gave you sweetish fish.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I got those friend nickels.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
So there was always a negotiation. Yeah, And so it
was that kind of thing of like it just reminds
me of so much diving into these things, you know,
treating it like it was caviar in a way, like
you know how some people would treat it in that
way of like it's like very precious. And it was
like a kind of a serious and a fun thing
for me.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Wow, that boy said tasty cakes is like caviard. That's so,
you know, I got this box of tasty cakes. I
come home, you know, I tell Bridget, I'm like, yo, Like,
to be honest, my first reaction, I ate a pack.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I had a whole pack. I just like inhale them basically, okay,
And I don't know if you're gonna.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Get upset about this. I thought they tasted like Twinkies.
At first, Okay, I thought there was kind of a
Twinkie vibe happening with the cake. Then the ice started.
It's like in the aftertaste that butter scotch. I'm starting
to feel it a little bit. I'm like, okay, yeah,
so I need to make a simple maybe some powdered sugar,
brown sugar and butter to make that kind of butterscotch
(14:12):
situation on the stove. So I heated that up. I
just kind of went off the cuff. Okay, I don't
make that many cakes. I do have a few in
my new cookbook, but like, I'm not you know, I'm
more of the bread guy to savory the lamination or whatever.
So I was like, all right, I got my cake game,
and I was like, I'm just gonna go with the
simple vanilla cake. I mean, I don't have you know,
the ingredients list on the box is like this big.
(14:33):
I was scared to try to recreate that package flavor.
You know about that package flavor, Like I've made honey
buns from scratch and they taste good, but I'm like,
is it tastes like the package vending machine honey bun?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
That's been sitting there for ten months.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
No, so and that's what required taste. That's that is
definitely a required Like I like that, right, you know
what I mean? Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, of course you would have to.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Our doctors don't like that. We love it, they do not,
But I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It's the best. It is absolutely the best.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
This is the absolute best. So I made the yellow cake.
I did the simple you know, dryes wets. Oh no,
I didn't do the simple action.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No you didn't. You put your foot in it.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I did. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I whipped some egg whites up and added some cream
of tartar and folded that into the batter to try
to like get something dense but light at the same time.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I iced it.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I put it in the fridge. I actually got a
DM from someone when I posted the box of Tasty
Cakes crimpets, and they were like, are you from Philly?
And I was like, I know, why would I be
from Philly because I have this box and they're like, man,
the secret my mom had was to put them in
the fridge and I would eat them the next day,
And so that stuck with my mind. I was like,
(15:43):
sure I could make this, ice it and cut them
and then bring them, or I could let it sit
in the fridge for a bit to kind of let
them solidify within themselves, let that icing kind of harden,
because you know, when you get in the package, it's
kind of like a stiff icing.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So that was the approach.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I cut them into the weird shape that you know,
there's no molds for this. They have a monopoly, I
guess on the mold for this. I think that's actually
a really clever business model.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, the very distinctives.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, it's distinctive. Nothing looks like this. And then I
took the train. I found you in the street in
front of your restaurant, Kingfisher. I mean you came running out,
and the time has come to figure out did I
bring you back? And and you know, it's called the
proost effect. When someone tastes foods that they've eaten when
they were younger, it's an emotional response.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Correct, These memories just return. It's not you don't try
to do it. It just happens.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, it happened in Ratichewy with the food critic it
did you remember heat the ratichuy?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I remember, Yo. That boy was like I remember when
we was broken. We just had zucchini and tomato. It's
just straight up delicious.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And he was on his bike. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So the world wants to know, you know what I'm saying.
The listeners want to know. Brian Ford wants to know.
Bridge Kenna wants to know. I'm sure the producers that
are sitting there listening to just want to know too.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Andre.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Did I nail it? Did you go back? Where did
you go when you took your bites?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I went back. You totally took me back. You nailed it. Yes,
all the flavors were there. The flavors are there. The
texture was a little off, but like okay, textually yeah,
but you you know, but it couldn't be right. I
would never expect it to be like that package thing
right right, but literally like in Scotty standing in the store,
right in the middle and Tasty Cakes used to be
(17:29):
on the left hand side. It was one all that
went straight down the middle. On the right hand side
was a glass counter and Scotty would be on the
right like standing there and that's where I was, right
back there and it's kind of looking around and to
be honest, I haven't had one, ah shit, maybe fifteen
years Wow, Yeah, it's been quite some time, even though
(17:51):
I'm back on the East Coast.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Did I just rekindle your creative growth?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I mean this, even though the shape wasn't like right,
but like I got what you were trying to do.
Like if I just walked in and saw them on
the ground or like saw them on someone's table, I
would be like, hey, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That highest compliment of all time.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
If I saw this on the ground out in the streets,
I would think they're tasty.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
K on someone's table. I would totally know what that was.
And yeah, I would ask you if I could have
one or sneak in, like lick some of the frosting
off the side.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, listen, man, I got extra frosting in the fridge,
not even joking.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
If you want to come over.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
We got some fun content when I brought these taste
case for the listeners. You guys can check that out
onto social media channels and all that kind of thing,
and stay tuned. Towards the end of this episode, we're
gonna circle back to these crimpits. We're gonna play a
little game. It's gonna be really fun, and you don't
want to miss out on that.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
We'll be right back after this. All right, all right,
let's just jump back in. You told me you're growing
up in Trenton. You returned every summer to continue to
(19:12):
reconnect with your roots. What about how did you get
into wine? I mean, I know that you you know,
worked in finance for a bit. I can relate. I
used to be a CPA. But give me your you know,
how did it really go down with you to kind
of use that tasty cake tradition, that habit, that meditation
and transform it into this career.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, I had worked in restaurants. I always worked in
food service. So my first job when I was sixteen,
I worked at McDonald's. I worked at like some really
famous restaurants.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, McDonald's super famous.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I worked to fine dining, and then, you know, going
to college, it was just more like waiting tables at
a restaurant. I was working at Red Lobster Out a
good stuff, yep, you know. And I think what I
learned about all that, I think one, you know, the
restaurant business is pretty transient, right, especially in the front
of the house. Everybody's going on to bigger and better things, right,
and generally speaking, being a waiter is not your bigger
(20:07):
and better thing, and I think it came time for
me for my bigger and better thing. I end up
getting a job at City Corps Investment Services, and you know,
I was out, and when I left, it was just
so funny. I was just miserable. I just sat and
answered the phones and man, you know, I was a
licensed stockbroker, but we couldn't give any advice. So basically
(20:27):
we were just working with high net individuals. So anybody
who had over three hundred thousand in accounts with City Bank,
they would pick up the phone and they would just
ask the stock quotes. I mean, it was before a
smartphone came along, right, Right.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Was that your first experience learning what it's like to
be the only person that looks like you in a
workplace or was it diverse?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I mean what was No?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I was the only person that there weren't that many
people that look like me. But that's been all my life,
Like where I went to school, you know, hobbies, you know,
like all the white kids used to fight over wanted
me to stay at a night at their houses on
the weekend. Right, you know what I mean? It is
like you were so a hot commodity in that in
that sense wanted to hang out and it was just
funny to be able to, you know, see the differences
(21:09):
and something that really plugs me to this day of
like my guilt of working really hard.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It's one of those things where you know, you would
go and stay to night at someone's home and they
their house and all the things that were very different
than when I had. They had more, but their fathers
were never around and it wasn't it wasn't like their
fathers were gone. It's like their dads were always on
a business trip or something. And it just made me
always think that, like wow, like maybe if my father
(21:34):
was gone, we would have more kind of thing you know,
like stupid things when you're when you're a child, right,
And somehow I adopted that to my whole life, Like
you know, I'm going to therapy about it, but like
that's what I thought that I wanted as a child, right,
you know. I mean I spent a decade on the
road building a business. You know, I think I spent
a lot of time with my children, but like literally
like home for Friday night, dinner, Saturday, take them the
(21:57):
sports classes, Sunday take out the trash, Monday get back.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And this was for ten years straight, for ten years.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
For a decade. I mean we spent this summer is
like we took three months off at a time, like
we did other things. But I've always been the only
person that looks like me. There's something like that I
had to be comfortable with, and to be honest, I
was right, like I felt like that was the other
side of diversity.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, meaning that.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, like like I could have just stayed in Trent
and hung out with people who look like me. But
the point that we, my parents and I guess me,
were willing to sacrifice being the only people who look
like us in the room. I think that really enriched
my life in a way that that it maybe it
didn't for other people I grew up.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
With, And it is enriching. I swear we're almost cut
from the same plot. Not only do I relate to this,
but it's like I really lived it as well. But
do you ever find do you ever feel like you
have to have different versions of yourself in order to
function in different environments.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean to tell you a little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You know, I walked into an interview for a Big
four accounting firm, and I'm the only person that looks
like me. So my name is Brian Ford and different voice,
and you know, and it turns into a whole It
kind of turns into a whole game. And then when
I get home, it's almost like I have to like
take that costume off, hang it up in the closet
and give myself a minute to relax.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So do you also, I don't know. I mean maybe
you still.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Do it, but did you have to do that in
those beginning days to kind of get traction in the
in the wine industry?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Correct? I think it's just all about knowing who your
audience is. Yeah, I don't think that it's like faking
the funk or whatever they want to call it. No,
it's known who your audience. Like you get on stage
and you say, okay, so who's in the crowd today?
So all right, I'm going to focus my talk so
it's more poignant to their point of view. Right, That's
how I look at it. Right, So like I can
talk to anybody I know how to like, Hey, thereose
(23:42):
guys shooting dice in front of my house. I don't
like that, So I know how to go out there
and say what I need to say to them, and
then I know what I need to say, you know,
when I'm having a conversation with a fortune five hundred ceo. Yes,
And so I totally had to do that. And so
by the time I got to like finance, that part
didn't bother me. It was just more like I thought
that was going to be great, and yeah, I achieved
this thing, and blah blah blah. I guess what I
(24:04):
realized was that my bigger and better thing was right
there underneath my nose. Right, Like I enjoyed talking to people,
like walking up to a group of strangers. There was
something about like the day, knowing that it would start
in the same way, but like the journey within those
hours was totally different depending on who came in right,
And so ultimately I was laid off and pretty traumatic,
(24:27):
I think in a way of like man, fuck, Like
I did all this thing to get to this place,
and now I'm actually going back. But I took my
time because there were severance and honestly, I was watching
old episodes of Fraser that really just invited me to
have wine in my life. Really, it was never oh Fraser,
I'll do this. I'm gonna build this company and do
(24:48):
all the things that I've done. It was just like, hey,
they're having a great time, Like maybe you should enjoy wine.
Man and Fraser is like two pompous brothers who were
basically characters of themselves. Euse right. Wine always seem from
the outside looking in as like this pretty pretentious thing.
You know, people wearing ascots and convertibles, well manicured lawns
(25:10):
and all those kind of things. And when you don't
see anybody who looks like you, most of the time,
you don't think it's for you. But I've always found
that like humor was always a great foil to pretension
and so few humor. By watching that show, I felt
like it gave me some comedic antidotes to kind of
like protect myself. And it actually gave me the courage
(25:32):
to walk into a wine store for the first time. Really,
And that was the start of it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
At that point, you had never even walked into a
wine store or had no desire for it until you
saw the dudes on Fraser getting down with a nice glass.
What were they drinking?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Correct? I mean everything? Well, I mean I think it
started with sherry.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Oh, sherry, Okay, yeah, that was my mom's things.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
She's like, man, like you drink like an old white man.
What's happening words?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So, I think the only time I've ever said sherry
was in like the turtle Soup at Commander's Palace.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
In New Orleans or something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It's the whole thing, and so on one of the episodes,
like when it first starts, Niles comes over, Fraser says, hey,
would you fancy a scotch? He goes ah, and then
he says, how about a sherry? And then that's when
it started. So it was like from sherry and then
it was just like, you know, they were drinking Goovirz demeanor.
They were drinking sansee, they were drinking like gaya like
(26:25):
you know, they were drinking some of the best wines.
You know. How I found out nineteen sixty one in
Bordeaux was a revered vintage was through that show, right,
So it taught me a lot about like the sancera
saviion blanc. It taught me a lot by watching it,
but also just piqued my interest and just like kind
of got me interested drinking on my free time. And
so I would go into the line shop and I'd
(26:46):
be like, Hey, I got twelve bucks, what do you
got for me today? And so it was always a dial.
Like in a conversation with whine people, what you realize
is that they love to talk and they love to
share the information, right, Like, I'm gonna keep talking today,
I'm gonna just be gapping, right, Why.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
That's why you're here?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I mean, so it sounds like what you're basically telling
me is that through your career and finance, albeit you know,
maybe it was brief or not, through watching Fraser, through
learning wine, through how you grew up, you've developed the
ability to walk outside and tell dudes playing a dice
game to get off your block while you go get
a tasty cake and go back inside to a zoom
(27:23):
call with like CEO of like major corporation that you're
like closing a deal with.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, you're ready. There's levels to the ship.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
There's levels to this shit.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Levels you got to tell people. And then I think
people talk about like catching the wine bug, right, And
that was it. And so I went back to work
in restaurants, and I started to work at restaurants with
better wine list, and it was just like I want
to do this right.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
But it wasn't just restaurants.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I mean you you were at some pretty high high
end places.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Huh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well before that, like right at the beginning, like I
got into wine. In less than eighteen months, I was
a sall year at the French Laundry. I had won
a competition. I took the job as some yea at
the French Laundry. I moved to California and had never
worked in a fine dining restaurant, so there was a
lot of stuff going on there. It was a really
fun time. It was a really hard time. It's like
(28:16):
on Friday where he's like, how can you get fired
on your day off? Shit would happen on your day off,
and like somehow you were responsible, right because maybe you
didn't do you know. It was just a weird thing,
like everybody held themselves accountable. It was one of the
wildest and crazy places that I ever worked. Everybody cared
the attention to detail. It was the first time in
(28:36):
my life where up until that point I thought a
hard day meant that, like you came home and your
feet hurt and your back hurt. Right, not only did
your feet and your back hurt, like your brain was mushed.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Your brain is just exploding.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, you just had so much. The expectations were so high,
but it was just really cool and I felt like
it was something that I really needed. I don't think
I would be doing what I'm doing today if I
didn't have that experience and to know that, like you,
that you could go to the mountaintop and it didn't
look the way that everybody thought it should look, right,
meaning that like I worked at the French laundry and
(29:08):
like you had to walk outside through the rain or
through the elements to the chef's garage to go get
like an eighteen hundred dollars bottle of champagne sitting on
a rusty grate inside of refrigerator in his garage. And
that's what made it great. What makes great restaurants are
in those great experiences are the things that you have
to overcome that you can't see, and that's what made
(29:28):
it great. And that's what I tell all the young
kids now that they think everything has to be shiny
and new for it to be that, and it's like, no,
it's about a belief. Service is something that you do.
Hospitality is the reason why you do it? That has
kind of been the driving force. And then I moved
to New York and I ran the beverage department at
per Se for about three years. I met my wife
who worked at per Se. We had a secret romance.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
House secret like walk in freezer secret or no, no,
that could never happen like that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
We'd be at a bar, pone it up to the bar.
You know, I'm all in her ear, whisper and sweet
not things in her ear, and then the front door opens.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
You had to be on.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, I had a hat on, and the chef walks
in and I'm like, oh shit. So now I'm on
the other side of the bar. I'm backed up with
him playing. I'm on the ground hiding. The bar room
is like, sir, you can't be back here, you can't
be back here. And I was like, I'm looking for
my contacts and I'm looking around and then I look
up and he's like, you're wearing glasses. I was like,
(30:25):
oh shit. So then I'd come back over, you know,
the chef would pass. But it was like many moments
like that, and you know, eventually then my girlfriend, she
ended up leaving. She wrote a book that wasn't authorized.
A New York Times most notable book called Service included,
which was a memoir of sorts of a twenty seven
year old Ivy League educated woman who found herself at
(30:46):
the most anticipated restaurant opening in New York history. Takes
you behind the scenes about how, you know, Thomas hired
you know, retired ballerina to teach us how to walk
through the dining room. We had seminars from people all
over the world. It was just like, that is nuts.
It was just like a really crazy experience. And then
the second half of the book is she meets a
(31:07):
dark and mysterious and handsome.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I wonder who that could be. And then it made.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
It uncomfortable at work. She was considered press, so in
our manager's meeting, she was on the agenda. So it
made it a little tough.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
You had a bounce.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I think it's so funny. It made me make
a decision, a hard decision that I probably would have
never made. It was good there. I would have stayed there.
People don't give up those jobs. But like also I
realized that like you have to be able to be
willing to give up the good to get the great
and this was a really good job. I just kept
saying to myself, this can't be as good as it
(31:46):
gets for me.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, And you know, they don't teach you that kind
of mentality, Like that's not something that can be taught.
In my opinion, I'm starting to learn through my own
career that those moments where you feel like you're at
the top of the mountain, you feel like you're doing it.
You feel like it's oh, no one gives up these jobs.
No one doesn't do this, and you step back and
you're like, but I got other shit to do. This
(32:07):
is great, but I know that I'm capable of more,
and so I'm still you know, like you said, there's
levels like I feel like I'm seeing three steps, four steps,
ten steps ahead, even though I'm like thriving right. And
sometimes you do have to ground yourself and say, hol
on a second, let me raise a glass to myself
and take a night off and actually appreciate everything that
I've been doing.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But then the next day you just jump right back.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You get back recorded.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So you started jumping on the airplane. I'm assuming this
is when you started getting out to the West Coast
and exploring your own business.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Ventures.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, that was the idea, you know, it was stop
and start For like three years. I had to humble
myself and take jobs and consult But it was in
twenty ten I left consulting and working for other people
and that's when I really got on the road. And
so it was that decade from twenty ten to twenty twenty,
just traveling all over the world. And it felt like
every time I left, like I was giving myself a
(32:58):
raise every time, like we were built something. And I
spent a lot of time in restaurants this time around,
as an entrepreneur, I was the one who had to
pick up the check.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Stay, Flake will be right back. Enough of that, Enough
of that, Back to the interview. I mean, on the
(33:33):
wine side, I feel like you've definitely changed people's lives.
By people's, I mean the two people in this kitchen,
Brian Ford and Bridget Kenna, who drink the opp like
every night, other people's pino.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Correct correct other people's.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
You've got restaurants and other endeavors.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I mean specific You've got a son's handbar, You've got
chickeny bread, which you know I'm already talking to your
baker giving him a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Because he's like, why is this, Why is this guy
saying we're doing a pop up?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
What?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
What's good?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No, he loves it. And that's the thing, right, Like
the thing is, it's like it's not about me. This
guy is talented, and like he should be meeting people
like you. He should be just understanding and being more
immersed in like his field and like no, and prominent
people and people should be talking to him. And like,
you know, our chef. I feel the same way. Like
to me, is just really to help them get their
shine on right and to do something great, right.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So yeah, we started. I started a company called Mason
to Our Wines two thousand and seven, all based out
of the Wymmett Valley. We sell wines in almost every
single state in about twenty two countries. And the thought
was like, just successible wines that kind of over deliver.
We don't take the wine the packaging. I don't take
myself too serious. I let the wine inside the bottle
do all the talking. You know that they're not over
(34:49):
adulterated with oak, they're not manipulated with fillers and colors
and stuff like that, you know, additives. And so that
was kind of the goal that was approachable, and then
it just so happened that on a re shelf under
twenty five dollars was like this sweet spot.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Oof, it's so sweet. It's incredibly sweet.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, And like so the price point we always felt
over deliver it. I think we've raised our prices once
in ten years. Yeah, and that's me just wanting it,
like taking less just so that we can still be,
you know, on that playing field. And then you know,
for me, packaging was always interesting and fun. We chose
black and white because it was stark. It reminded me
a lot of it of a child shopping in the
(35:26):
grocery store. You know, we used to do those real
shopping chips where you dread it, you're like, oh my god,
and then you went up every single while with your mother.
And then every I was more like a you know,
a mosaic of colors. And then you would hit this
one aisle which was called a generic aisle. And it's
before the grocery stores had any market. It was called generic.
So everything was packaged in white and then they had
(35:46):
black letters on it and it would just say beer
or to say potato chips.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Wow, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, And it was from that I designed the labels myself.
I couldn't afford a designer or anything like that. And
that was it.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
You've got, you know, these wonderful new restaurants and this bakery.
We'll make sure we put all the details on the socials.
But on one final note, in terms of wine, I
have a little game I want.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
To play with you.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
All right, We're playing a little flaky game here. Okay,
so very simple, and I hope, I hope hope were
the first people that have asked you this. But what
wine would you pair with?
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Tasty cakes?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Butterscotch, crimpet ooh ooh oh yeah I like this.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you know, I would have to think a little
bit in detail, but like, first off the top of
the dome, it would probably just be champagne.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Oh, shoot, off the top of the dome, it's champagne.
Is it a ground crew?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I would probably do more like a special club, something
that's like heavily toasted in oak maybe, so I would
probably do something more like krug with that. So it's
pretty powerful through it's like oak aging, but like the
bubbles to act more like a scrubbing agent to kind
of really help clean some of.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
That butterscut, scrub that frosting off your teeth.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh yeah, you know it's funny, right because when I
when I first got into wine and we talked about
food and wine pairing, like I just never knew what
people were talking about, right, and so I was like
trying to figure out a way how to explain it
to people. And to me, it's always been to reset
your palate back to zero, so the first bite taste
as good as the last bite got you. It's like
(37:26):
to cleanse the palate and to reset your palate at
to zero. So maybe they meet each other here, or
they can offset where you do something that's high acid
to cut through something rich and fatty, or you do
creamy with creamy kind of thing here. I think we
would probably we would match more of I'm getting too
technically we matched more, You're not. I love this the
creaminess and the richness of Koog champagne with that denseness
(37:48):
of the cake and the frosting, with this bubbles and
acid that kind of really cleansed the palette at the end.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yo, fam, that's wild. You broke down. You broke down
a champagne pairing tasty cakes butterscotch crumpets. I think our
listeners are gonna really love that. I really want them
to try it themselves. I am probably trying to try
it myself. Listen, before we get you out of here,
there's a couple of important things that we want to
touch on. You know, in the Flaky Biscuit podcast, we're
always not just talking about food and nostalgia and how
(38:17):
something like a tasty cake can really mold your feelings
and emotions and propel you into success. It's all about
achieving that success and then finding some community oriented goals
to immerse yourself in. Andrea, I know you talked about
the food bank, but I would love it if you
could tell me and my listeners a little bit more
about what this project is, why it's important to you,
(38:40):
and how it's going to positively affect the community that
it involves.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Well, I just must preface it, but like this is
all new for me. I don't come from a place
of philanthropy, right. And Also, I think that most of
the time, when you think of it as like having
so much money that you give it away, it comes
with time, giving of your time in yourself and so
correct that's what's been interesting and new for me. Leslie Gordon,
who just recently took over the food Bank, just recently
(39:06):
met her and so we've been working on ways to
really kind of be able to work together. It is
the largest food bank on the East Coast. It's like
providing meals for inner city youth children and people of need.
There's a pantry where they have distribution where families can
go and pick up meals. I'm just excited to be
a part of it. I don't know how, you know,
in what way, but you know, being able to give
(39:27):
my time. I think the notion is that we know
somebody in our lives who's not getting enough to eat. Yeah,
and even like when you talked about the honeymuton, so
you wouldn't start like we know people like a young Brian.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
And I think that in our mind, we think that
it affects certain people, and it affects a lot more
people than we see. And hopefully, like through the work
with food Bank, that I could just raise a lot
more awareness of it and we can help people not
go to sleep hungry.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I literally had to kind of hold back a slight
deer there honestly though, because it you know when you
when I think about man.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I get to deepen this and I'll break down.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
But I mean I think about those days where you know,
my dad had to literally go find food from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yeah, and you're so funny, what does that even mean?
Like for some people say go find food, You're like,
what is that?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Literally?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
We were fortunate enough to where it's you know, it
wasn't to the point where you know, we're digging in.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
The streets or something like that for scrapes.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, and it's not it wasn't like that, but
it you know, literal like where are we getting a
loaf of bread for the week? I mean, you know,
my dad would drive or take a bus miles to
find churches that had just a couple of boxes of
Hamburger helper, a couple cans of Campbell soup, and he
would kind of just make this collection of food and listen.
You know, I'm gonna definitely sidebar with you on this
(40:44):
food bank situation. I'm here as well in the city,
and I would love to get involved as well in
any way that I can. I really want our listeners
to also participate. You know, we'll have information for people
to to kind of understand exactly what this is. Yeah,
very important, and it's it's I like how you prefaced
it with like, I'm new at this. We really appreciate that,
(41:06):
and I'm sure that we'll take that a long way.
That's going to be clutch. I'm definitely going to hit
you up about what I can do to help and
facilitate that movement.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I'm thinking about I'm going to give some bread away.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
When you said something like, oh, like just to get
a loaf of bread further week, I mean, we can
do that all day long.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Whatever it is. Man, let's make some loaves and let's
let's get some people fed.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Andre Mac, the absolute renaissance man, possibly one of my
new mentors. I don't know, and I don't think I
told people how we actually kind of met. I mean,
oh yeah, following on social media this, you know, you're
the wine guy on YouTube and all this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And I made a rap song about croissants. It was funny.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You reposted and you're like, Yo, this is crazy, and
I was like, yo, you should come have pizza in
my backyard. And you got the energy. You're like, Okay,
I bet I'll be there.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, And I've been following you for a while. It
was great to find and connect and here we are,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
But you know, as people listen to this, you know,
check out Kingfish, or check out Maison Noir, check out
all the wine, check out Andre Mac.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It's been such a pleasure, my friend. Hope you have
a great one.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Thanks mam, you too.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Cheers, thanks for listening. Fam.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you want to make my version of tasty Cakes
butterscotch crump it's for yourself. Find the recipe on Shondaland
dot com and you already know. I want to know
how it goes. I want to see your bakes. I
want to see how beautiful your tasty cakes come out.
Tag me at Artists and Brian tag Andre Mac. That's
at Andre H Mac tag Shondaland, of course, and we.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Want to see.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
We want to see y'all cutting up the little tasty
cake crumpet shape. Get onto the discord and talk about it.
These recipes are collective, you know, Let's make them. Let's
make them better. Honestly, the advice I can give you
for this, make sure your batter is not layer too thick.
You want to nice and thin so that you don't get.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
A tasty cake that's too tall. You know what I'm saying.
You got to replicate that tasty cake shape.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Don't forget to look up your local food bank at
Feedingamerica dot org, where you can donate and volunteer. You
can find all the websites and handles I've mentioned in
the show notes for this episode. If you like Flaky Biscuit,
rate it, review it five stars, ten stars. All right,
this is the best food podcast ever exist. Make sure
that you let everyone know that. Let's blow it up, man,
(43:24):
Let's make a bit. Flaky Biscuit is executive produced by
Sandy Bailey, Alex Alja, Lauren Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our creative producer is Bridget Kenna and our editor and
producer is Nicholas Harder.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
With music by Crucial.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Recipes from Flaky Biscuit can be found each week on
Shondaland dot com. Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel for
more Flaky Biscuit content. Flaky Biscuit is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
(44:03):
you listen to your favorite shows.
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