June 26, 2024 • 39 mins
Special guest David Orr from Flatstick Academy joins Chris today to share how to putt like a pro! David covers reading greens, starting the ball on the line, and adjusting speed. Stay tuned for part 2 where David and Chris cover the body's connection to putting!
Connect with David:
@davidorr
@flatstickacademy
Click here to watch the full episode: https://youtu.be/D4oYaNoD4iQ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Golf Fitness Bomb Spot.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm your host Chris Binn and I'm excited today to
have probably one of the most impactful people in my
personal game but also professionally. This honored to have this
this man here. He was one of the first what
I would call famous teachers to actually talk to me
way back in the day. We have David or the
(00:35):
he's known as the just the putting genius. We get
along great, just absolute nerds of the game and everything data.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So David, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thanks Chris, and it's great to be on this show.
It's great to see your new building, your success. And
obviously a lot of my clients are your clients as well,
so that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, no, it's I always think back to the first
times we met. I came down, I think you were
over at Keith Hill's still at that point we're on
the putting Green and jumped in the car. We went
over to where you had the big studio with yet
all the bricks signed and like I walked into that
building and I was like, this is my brother from
another mother. On the golf side, the data, the research,
(01:20):
the and it just from there. For those of you
who don't know David, I mean you've worked with some
of the biggest names on our working with some of
the biggest names in the game when it comes to
the flatstick, and you know, I'm excited today to kind
of dive into a lot of that and a lot
of the some of the new research we were just
talking about that you're you're looking at people don't think
(01:41):
about body and physical when they think about putting, and
I think you think that they should be, and from
all conversations it sounds like they really should, right.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, I mean, what's interesting about putting. Obviously you have
your basic skills of read, speed, line and name right,
your basic skill set. But what's what's involved with putting
is like coordination, like the ability to move, like to
establish maybe some disassociation at address between the rib cage
(02:16):
and the lower body and can I move my rib
cage separate from my pelvis or does my body move
as a whole right or associated.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So to speak? Right?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
So, so a lot of people don't think that way,
right that that I've got. You know, I might have
long arms or short arms, or long legs or short
legs and long tor so short tors all kinds of
combinations that make us look different but also move differently,
And that would be kind of interesting because with putting,
(02:47):
there is no one correct way to do it, if
that makes sense from a technique standpoint, but there are
better ways. And I would say that coordination, especially the
fine motor coordination, is the separator between people that struggle
being consistent versus people that can be extremely consistent, which
(03:10):
we can go over that here in a second if
you want to. When it comes to love to yeah,
well i'd be able to share my screen, I will.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, let me let me make sure you can share it.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And yeah, we're recording the screen too, you should be
able to, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, So we'll start with the four skills first, right, So,
one of the things that tour players are doing is
they're reading greens everywhere they go in the world. Every week,
it's a different green complex, maybe a different amount of
shape in the in the greens like we just saw
with Pinehurst number two, those are crowned greens, right, So
(03:50):
you can see on the telecast with the Bermuda grass,
you can kind of see the ridgeline where it's shiny
one way dull the other way. So crowned greens that
shape is a very difficult green to putt for any
level golfer.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right another state, as we saw.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, then then also you get what are called saddles,
which is the opposite of a crown, to be like
a spoon where it's going high low high, and if
the holes are down in the bottom of the saddle,
they're easier to put right. And then you know have
kind of planar greens where it's just sloped kind of uniformly. Yeah,
(04:29):
and then we get to what the average golfer sees,
which is kind of flattened level. So when they look
at a green, the amateur golfer looks at the green
as if it were flattened level, not flat and tilted
crowned or saddled right or tilted crowns like what we
saw at Finer. So the green complexes are much different
(04:51):
and much more difficult. However, the condition of the greens
are unbelievably good, and and you know, a lot of people,
you know, they saw Rory miss a couple of short ones,
but they were not reminded that he was forty four
hundred and ninety six out of four hundred and ninety
six up to that point right from inside three feet.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That's a pretty good streak.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, it is a very good streak. Matter of fact,
I think last year four or five guys when all
year made one hundred percent of them right in that instance.
But you know, you got to realize that the amount
of stress in the moment, right, you got a shot lead, right,
you only got you got a put on sixteen and
(05:37):
seventeen eighteen, basically got three holes to go. Yeah, and
sometimes you start to anticipate. You might have seen his
torso on the put on sixteen, the torso kind of
anticipated a little bit, which creates just a subtle little
pull right right, So he pulls the put on sixteen,
(05:58):
So what do you think is going to happen on eighteen?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
He's gonna try to not pull it, try.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
To not pull it on a left or right butt
and he actually got very thin. Yeah, the putter was
lifting too quickly and he kind of hit it a
little bit above the equator ish, and it was it
was a mishit basically right. So, but you know, if
you weren't in that stressful situation, that might not have
(06:25):
taken place. So I would not mark it up to oh,
something's got to be changed. It's just that that in
the moment there might have been a little bit out
being worried about the outcome as opposed to the process.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
The process, and do you find I always find just
playing with amateurs and versus playing with pros ilwouls see
a very big difference on how they approach. And he
talked about understanding how to read the green, looking at
the complex, the grain and the slope, and then also
the moment too, right, You know, I always joked by
play and we share some very high level students. I
(07:00):
play with them and there's a putt on the eighteenth
to win. Their demeanor is very different than my buddy
on eighteen to not lose five dollars. Right, he's more
nervous than the other guy. So can you speak to
like as an amateur going out to you know, who
wants to be a better putter? You know, and you
know you mentioned the process? Should they is there a specific.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Way to read the green?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And then and then ultimately how do they know like
if they miss a put it was it a bad
read or was it a bad stroke?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
We'll get into that in a minute. Yeah, So yeah,
So green reading is the number one skill that the
amateur golfer should get better at. It's also the easiest
skill to learn and to get better at, especially with
the ad point and now tour read up got two
options to learn, how to determine the break direction and
(07:51):
the break them out. Getting back to what I said previously,
the problem with the amateur golfer is they perceived the
green as flatter than it is. That's the problem, right,
So I can tell you a funny story. You know,
I've been doing green rereading since two thousand and seven,
the original end point stuff that Mark Swinney talked about,
(08:13):
long before A point express came about. And what's interesting,
I had gone to a tour event earlier this year
at Houston, and I'd gotten on the putting green and
something was I just couldn't perceive the green. And I'm
watching these balls curved like a ton. I'm working with
Alex Smalley and taking a peek at Alex Noran. Those
(08:33):
are the two guys that I've been working with this year,
and these balls are curving. And then when we got
the digital level out, I mean it's like two percent
of slow that Alex Molly was putting on, and I
kind of had to go back to my basics of Okay,
is the green flat level? No, it looks flat level?
Was not? It's flat and tilted. Oh, okay, it's flat
(08:56):
and tilted. So there's a high side and low side.
And then I had to start looking. Okay, he's putting
up and over a crown. There's a low high low,
and then the saddle is high low high. So I
had to literally start looking for shapes, those shapes in
the green. And then after about twenty minutes, like the
(09:20):
if my eyes could see it, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So cool.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's hard to see something when you don't know what
you're looking for. Right, makes sense. But if you know what,
I fell back on my training. Yeah, but even somebody
at expert level for that some reason, I couldn't see
it when I first stepped on that green because I'd
never been on that green.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah. So some people need to think of shape. Which
way is it shape?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
As opposed to whatever we normally think of as amateurs,
which maybe nothing.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Well, the real skill is being able to recognize break
direction and break them out. Okay, break direction first, that's
pretty easy based off the shape. Right, it's pretty easy.
You can kind of tell me what it's going to do.
But the break amount depends on so many things. It
depends on the speed of your ball, It depends on
(10:14):
the speed of the green, the effective speed of the green.
So even though these might be a ten, that's an average, right,
whereas you know, downhill on three percent of slope that
might be at I don't know, an effective stemp of
eighteen or twenty one, and then going back up the
slope it might only be a seven. So I think
a lot of golfers think in terms of distance. I
(10:35):
got a ten footer, Well, you got a ten footer
uphill into the grain, which is playing like a seven,
which is not much faster than your tea box, and
you're hitting a ten foot downhill, which is kind of
almost acting like not quite your hardwood floor. But I
mean it's golfers struggle with the change in the slope
(10:57):
and the change in the speed of the green, if
that makes.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Sense, and then we get mad when we leave it
five ft short.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, it's funny because I'll be listening to two guys
warming up on the practice screen. The guy's been hitting
all uphill putts and the other guy's been hitting downhill
putts and the guy from the hitting downhill putts will say, man,
these are fast, faster than the club, right, yeah, And
then of course everybody's got to interrupt our. So the
(11:27):
guy hitting downhill is like, man, these are faster than
our club, and then the guy hitting uphill goes, what
are you talking about? These things are slow. To listen
to that that dialogue going on between guys warming up,
and it's like, dudes, you're on three percent slow. Yeah, yeah,
and one's playing up hill, one's playing down hill. They
(11:47):
don't even realize it, right, but yeah, but now getting
into the real difference, and I'm going to kind of
share my screen.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, for sure, the hardest.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
The hardest skill and golf is starting the ball on
the line right. In order to do that, you actually
have to have a very very very precise delivery of
the club, specifically the club face. We're going to take
a look at a tour player and his how much
(12:19):
he changes the club face from address to impact. Okay,
so can you guys see these numbers pretty good there?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, we can see him if and if for those
of you who are listening in your car, and now
we're going to put all this in the show notes
and everything so you can actually see the recording at
another time.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
But yeah, this is awesome for everyone who's watching this.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, so what we did was we hit a ten
foot pot on every angle to the slope. So if
you imagine six o'clock is uphill, twelve o'clocks downhill, right, Yeah,
So the one point zero close the first the first
number there, this was this is Alex Alex Marley, PGA
tour player. He pulled it, pulled the putt just kind
(13:03):
of went just slightly left. He pulled it one degree.
M makes sense, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Then we went how big just to give context, how
big of a of an impact is one?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I don't want?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Like one degree change and a driver going one hundred
twenty miles an hours massive? How big is a one
degree change in putting?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, to me, a degree is a mile. How much
would be a degree off in your spine?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Or a degree off right right? So it's a degree
is a mile right now, so he would he would
feel a one degree pull right now. The next putt
was at five o'clock. It was zero point five open,
but it's a right to left putt and me, he
makes it because the club face is open just enough,
(13:47):
so the ball starts a little bit higher and then
comes into the face. So it wasn't a perfect stroke,
but it was the face was up the slope a
little bit right, right. Yeah, Then he misses the next
one at four o'clock at zero point one, So basically
he underread that pot. He had a good stroke, but
(14:10):
underread it a little bit right. Now, what's interesting is
he makes the next one at three o'clock again the
face zero point two. These are like small numbers, tents
of a degree.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Then he makes a perfect stroke and misses it on
the high side, so he overreaded it. He had a
zero point zero club face, no face between the address
and impact right and missed it.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I could have missed it because of speed, but he
misread it because of the read because I was there
get feedback and getting feedback. Zero point three open On
the next pot at two o'clock, he made that one.
The zero point four, yeah, I believe that's one o'clock.
He missed that one. And then yeah, so let's see,
(14:58):
we got to get this right. Sixty five four three
to one, twelve o'clock zero point four missed it. Then
he made the zero point zero. So the read the
reed matched the seed, match the stroke was. That would
be one perfect stroke out of six putts. Wow, okay,
now what's interesting. We get over to the next page.
(15:20):
Zero point zero missed it. Okay, I misread it just
a little bit. Now this next one that has a
green box around it. This was awesome. This is a
left to right putt and he makes the worst stroke
of the day and center cuts it. So he basically
pulled it right, his worst today basically pulled it into
(15:44):
the hole. That makes sense?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Is that just because he had lined up incorrectly, but
he missed it just enough.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
To We're built to survive, man, Yeah, brains built to
adapt and adjust, and our human nature resists chain right,
And he just pulled the living daylights out of it
because he misread it. And and that's why I put
a green box out of it, because when we talked it,
I sent these these this data to him. So just remember,
(16:12):
your worst stroke was to make So he's made one
put with a perfect stroke and he's made another pot
with his worst stroke. That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
That sounds like the game of golf to me.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It is the game of golf. Right, and then he's
left right parts zero point seven, closes zero point eight,
clothes and et cetera. Right, So, so what's interesting is
these are really tight numbers. To be honest with.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You, how what are those if an amateur goes, oh,
let's do let's do the amateur.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Let's let's take a look at what that looks like. Now,
this guy, as all the amateurs do. When they come
to see me, they tell me they're seventeen. Right, they
tell me that they're seventeen. It's like, right, But what's
interesting this is the hardest skill Chris.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, okay, so those numbers are wildly different.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Second, yeah, you know what I mean. Money. Yeah, so
this is the Sky's a great guy. He's a seventeen handicap.
And what's funny is he says to me, well, I
don't make my fair share of five to ten foot putts. Like, well,
let's measure you on some ten foot putts.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So you know the first plot, two degrees open, misses
it to the right, one point nine misses it to
the right. Oh we got one square missed it. Now,
what's interesting is to watch his behavior he starts aiming
more to left and pushing it more right. Remember these
numbers are change of face that they change from addressed impact. Okay,
(17:57):
so again a little face change, and all of a
sudden you can start to see it's getting three degrees open.
So he's aiming more left and then leaving the face
more open.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
He's got one five point three getting there.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You beat me to it, cow. So what's funny is
then we get on the next page and he misses
one way left because he's aiming left and doesn't open
the face and it's four close. So now he's scratching
his head. He doesn't know if he's going to miss
it left or miss it. That's right, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
(18:32):
So what's interesting is you look at the face change.
It's you know, it got tighter for a moment, and
then it's back to three point four, then zero point eight,
one point four, four point one. Like if you go
back to Alex Smalley's numbers, they didn't change that much.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
No, the entire variable was less than one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So this right here is why the amateur golfer struggles
with putting.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's because of the just the lack of consider and
is it because they have a poor feedback loop. And
what they think is.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, so great question. Feedback is huge, right, Yeah, you
have to measure it, but you don't know if it's
your face is open or closed. These people can't feel that, right, right,
So you make them aware of it by using technology,
and then they start to see the numbers and then
after a while they go, oh, yeah, that did feel open.
(19:29):
Oh yeah, that felt closed.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So what he's doing is changing his behavior on the slope.
Misses a few, right, then he starts aim and left,
starts aim and left, leaving the face more open.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And then and then I'm assuming that the net the
average amateur who gets on a quote unquote heater with
the putter just kind of it's like games left and
keeps it open just enough, and it's lucky.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So what's funny is I always d the analogy if
you and I went to Las Vegas and you had
the skill set of counting cards, yep, and I did
not have the skill set of counting cards, who would
be luckier?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You would be?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
So a tour player has the skill set of being
able to read a green anywhere they go in the world.
They have the ability to adjust to the speed and
just a few putts they are as tight. Let's go
ahead and pull Alex Smalley back up here again. Just
one of his just one of his numbers right side
by side, so our folks can see the difference in
(20:37):
face change, right.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So it's literally eighty percent less variation.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean, so this is now let's talk about
how to get the amateur golf for better fast.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, let's do So.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You got to realize Alex Smalley hits in his warm up.
He hits twenty putts down a chalk line. I can
tell you right off the bat that's going to get
you within a degree degree and a half. He also
sets up with a putting mat that has a perpendicular
for the face. So if you have a perpendicular with
(21:18):
the face and you're starting the ball on the chalk
line or laser line, you have that, you're going to
reduce this space change significantly very quickly. Now, what if
we throw technology on there for feedback? Yeah, now you
can get it under half a degree. But you have
(21:39):
to know what those fields are and what those stations are.
And what's funny is that the amateur golfers that I
have been working with, especially as their level gets better,
like they go from a say somebody that's a seventeen
like this one guy right, and then you get a
five handicap and then down to a zero or a
plus two, or somebody that's played in college Division three
(22:00):
versus playing Division one. As their level gets the numbers
get tighter. And this is why coordination fine motor coordination
with a stick and a ball, hockey players tend to
do good. There's no line on the puck and there's
no line on the hockey blade. Write that downact Yet
(22:20):
how precise are they with the stick in the puck?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Right? The players?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Right? Tennis players, stick and ball, stick and ball sports.
That is, I have found that people that have played
stick and ball sports do well with putting. People that
have not done well, that don't do well did not
play sports.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That tracks in terms of neurodevelopmental and everything from time
their kid.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You just beat me to it. You just beat me
to it. So the brain's not developed enough to be
coordinate enough or precise enough to be that precise. But
what's the one thing I'm going to say is the
butt thing here? Ready? The amateur golfer can improve the fastest.
(23:06):
It's just a matter of how you're training it and
how you're learning.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's it's like the first time you and I met
and I said, well, David, your hip doesn't move, But
the good news is there's a lot of upside.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Well, the good news is we can get to move right.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, So what's interesting is just getting on the putting
green more than you are right now. Like, if you're
getting on the putting green for only thirty minutes a week,
I think your expectations need to be changed compared to
somebody that's getting on the putting green five hours a week,
or like my tour players ten hours a week, or
(23:45):
like my best putters that I work with fifteen hours
a week. That makes sense. I try to hit one
hundred putts a day, one hundred reps a day, and
I track them all. Some days it's two hundred. That's
when the old so as gets real and tight.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, So we're going to talk about posture in a minute.
But the average golfer, so learning to read a green
should be their number one and easiest skill to develop.
Number two, recognizing that, yeah, I have a ten footer
uphill versus ten foot or downhill. It's not the distance
that they're struggling with, it's the speed that they're struggling with.
(24:26):
And then why don't I make my fair share of
potts as well? Look at the tour player on the
left and look at the amateur golfer on the right.
I mean that's a seventeen dude. Yeah, that's a seventeen
right there.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Variants That's that's wild.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I don't know how you came up with that, but
it does look that that crazy, doesn't it? Right?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I mean you got basically zero to five and zero
to one, and that's so you got a variance one
versus five, and that's that's that's that's everyone who's not
If you're just listening to this, you need to need
to pull over and watch this.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Click the link and watch this, because this is this
is wild.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
This is not to say that the seventeen handicapper doesn't
make any putts occasionally mm hm. That you got to
get back to what his statement was and what his
expectations were. I'm not making my fair share like he's titled. Yeah,
to make it more right, it's like me going to
Las Vegas with you and going you know, Chris, I
(25:21):
didn't make my fair share of money back.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Vegas didn't give us our share of winnings, David, Hey
did not, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
What I mean? But you got more than I did.
I lost everything, and at least you brought home enough
money to eat.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Right exactly exactly, So this was pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I wanted to to just show this because I don't
think the average amateur really understands what it takes. Because putting.
Putting is supposed to be the simplest part of the game,
right then, Okay, if putting is the simplest part of
the game, wouldn't the vast majority of golfers be really
(25:58):
good at it?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You would think, yeah, you would think why are Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I think it goes to everything that you said.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I mean, just the base, the pattern recognition of the
greens that I would I would argue, correct me if
I'm wrong. I mean, do most golfers that come to
see you amateurs even know, like what a zero break
line is?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah? Well, it's just a straight put down and straight
put up, you know. And that can be the same
as the fall line, and it can also not be
if there's a shape right right. But you know, if
you have this right, you know pretty plainer. The fall
line and the zero break line are pretty much almost
on top of each other. But yeah, just understanding the
(26:47):
direction of the slope. I mean, you know, I'm a
skier and that's like the number one fundamental is getting
your skis into the fall line and carving back out.
So it's it's uh, skiers have been judging slope a
lot longer than golfers have. I can tell you that.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
For sure, and at a much faster speed too.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Oh yeah, So I think for our listener out there,
you've got to develop your green rating skills number one.
Number two, you've got to adapt quicker to the speed
of the greens. It's not just your distance, it's the
distance and slope and the effect of speed of the green,
and then your ball speed, right, and then starting the
(27:28):
ball line and chalk lines for outdoors, laser lines for indoors,
and if you can get some type of perpendicular alignment
that will help you with reducing the face change between
where you're aimed and where it is at impact. And
that's what those charts were is how much does the
tour player change the face. Now you can do this, Okay.
Brad Faxon is always closing the face about zero point
(27:52):
seven zero point six, zero point six, zero point six,
zero point one, zero point four, but it's always closing.
The path is maybe half a degree from the inside.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
But his stuff is.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well organized, right. What goes with the closing face is
a path that's slightly right. That's why he's his stroke
is so elite, but it's tight. The variance is very tight, right.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So is that is that something that would that be
fair to say that?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You see the great putters have tight variances, but potentially
different strokes based on their body and and all of.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Those sorts of things. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, So let's just kind of go there. Okay, So Chris,
let's talk about let's talk about the body. Everybody's body
is different. So one of the things that's been fascinating
for me for the last I don't know, three to
five years. Well, I've been studying the body for ten years.
With the twelve years ecuse me, with the GVD measuring
(28:53):
the you know, I've shown you some of the data.
We've got facts in and Rory and Hunter Mayhan and
Justin Rose and Suzanne Petterson and like all these top
players and what they didn't They all do it differently, right,
and the reason why they do it differently is they're
built differently. So let's just kind of talk about what
(29:14):
would be some basic body builds that you're seeing that
you're you guys obviously do that, don't you. You measure
limb lengths and.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, yeah, you got some people that you know, I
mean obviously of your three basic types of body types, right,
your endomorphs, your ectomorphs, your your mesomorphs, and but then
within those, you're going to have some people that have
really long arms, some people have really short arms, some
people have big bellies that get in the way. You know,
there's lots of different Yeah, you have some people who
(29:42):
just don't have any mobility at all. They're locked in
internal rotation in their shoulders. Like I played in the
North Carolina the other week with a guy who was
six ' eight and couldn't have weighed more than one
hundred and forty pounds. He was super tall and skinny
and like, so he's clearly like so there's to your point,
there's lots of different body types out.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
There that you're gonna run around, run into.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that's why we look different. Right, So that's why
the stroke looks different. So you take that tall six
to eight guy, their shoulder joint can be much more
externally rotated, the arm can be like the little like
they can go into hyper extension of the elbow, donate
the form, and their arms look really straight when they pot.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Then you take the guy that you know, the former
football player when he was in college and now he's
fifty five, and you know he's like literally like you know,
his elbows and everything looks like this, right, he's yeah, exactly.
So you know, one of the things that I've learned
is not to fight somebody's body type, but to use it.
(30:49):
So if you go on my Facebook and you see
before and afters, I'm considering torso length, not just length
the legs, but length of femur versus tibia tippviv. I'm
looking at the humorous length versus the form length, also
the hand, the fingers. I'm also looking at the feet,
(31:12):
the Q angle of the femur, and I'm also or
the O angle and I'm looking at the feet. Are
they pronated supinated? What part of their arch they tend
to stand on, and then the shoes. I made a
funny post. I had this kid, and I put them
in pressure insoles. So I've got what's called belt bell
(31:32):
on pressure insoles that I could put in. It's like
a walking around pressure mat, right, And his center pressure
was extremely towards his toes and he was in major
major doors reflection with the ankle knee flexion and just
everything was so far forward. And what's funny is he
(31:54):
had a heel stack. He had one of those G
four's with the high heel standing on this ramp. Yeah,
it literally moves you more forward.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
So my first question people think I'm crazy when I
start asking about putter fitting, is like, are those the
shoes that you're going to use when you practice and play?
Because the length of the putter that I put at
is going to be determined by that. I'll stacked off
the ground.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Are you right?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Did you ever notice me take the shoes off your
putters really long?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh? Yeah, those new.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
G fours and you got to go put an extension
in it, right, exactly. That's the first question I ask,
is you know what, so I'm doing a complete body assessment.
You know what's interesting is not just I preference eye dominance,
eye preference. But you know, some people might have a
motor preference in a shoulder joint right, So I'm lead
(32:58):
shoulder pref trail shoulder right balanced, you know, going down
through all the joints and looking what their preference of
movement is. Because one of the things that I've learned
is that what's the engine of your stroke? Well, everybody
says my shoulders, but yeah, you look at the data
and almost almost everybody has some arm movements and elbow
(33:22):
movements and some wrist movements. Even though they're small, they
have some, right, So that's part of the coordination is
the putters the third arm, So then my fingers and
hands and wrists, and then my forearms and elbows and
et cetera all the way up to the chain. I
tend to putt with my shoulders the prime engine, but
that doesn't mean I don't have any coordination going on
(33:43):
where into your hands, fingers exactly exact exactly. So yeah,
So for our viewers, if somebody had a long torso
and say short legs, I see a lot of hip pinch.
I see I wish I had short legs, because we
(34:06):
sent our mass to be closer to the ground, right.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
But what's interesting is somebody could have a long torso,
short legs and long arms, and they might be in
a really short cutter.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Right yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, they also be
a great dead they'd be a great deadlifter. They wouldn't
have to go they wouldn't have to go very far
off the ground, exactly that terrible bench presser, but great deadlifter.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Then you got yours, truly, who's got extremely long legs,
extremely long upper arms, and a very short waist like
my wife is like four to five inches taller than
I am sitting in a chair.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Wow wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
So these are things that you know, have to be considered.
So if I, if you're to take me to do
a hip pinge, I would have I would immediately fall
back on my heels m h immediately. It probably couldn't
do I probably couldn't do a squat. That makes sense. Yeah,
So these are the things that affect balance in putting.
(35:13):
That makes sense. It also affects the position of your
arms and your elbows and even your wrists and fingers
and clubs. So a lot of people say, well, how
how putting's just so simple. Well, putting is simple if
if the surface was flatten level, if every if the
putt was just distance and direction. Right, what makes the
(35:36):
putting strokes so unique is we're all built differently, We're
all so asymmetrical.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And then is that where then the putter like changing
upright versus a mallet versus like, is that where all that.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Starts to come into the equation of.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
It can especially when you view the putters a third arm.
That's how I look at it. My men toward Maco
Brady said, the golf club's a third arm. Yeah, you know,
so you can. You know, putter fitting right now is
kind of all over the place because people are using
cutter fitting is a means to sell putters as opposed
to there is no standard way to assess somebody's hutting
(36:20):
stroke and movement pattern. Where there's no standard way. Now
there's there's some guys that are a lot smarter at
it than other people.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
It's funny. I'll get people that walk in the door
and go, yeah, I just got putter fit by was it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Champion club champion? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, And they got on a Sam Potte lab and
they come in and I'm like this putter is like
too short the gripsay. Oh, by the way, putter weighs
about six hundred grams total weight, and you know fact
putters under five hundred, Tigers putters under five hundred. Stan
Utley's butter is under five hundred total Brams, I'm not
(36:57):
talking about total, that's.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Jeff everything, grip everything. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah, Stan Outlay's under five hundred, and you're coming in
here with six hundred. I hope they're swinging it like Bryson.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I hope the plane of it is really up and down,
because that's one of the markers that the flatter, the
flatter the plane of the sweet spot fat, the fat
flatter the face plane is. That's where the weight change is.
I can be lighter, if I'm flatter, if I'm more upright,
I can be a sledgehammer, got it. Yeah. A lot
(37:32):
of people are putting with hutters that are not fit
for them.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, David, I can't thank you enough for coming on today.
For all of you guys who are interested in getting more,
hearing more of David Stoff. Obviously the website, we'll put
all the links there. On social media, you're just at
David or what's their at plastic? What's the best place
for people to find you?
Speaker 3 (37:53):
So on Facebook it's David Orr.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Okay, I know about Instagram or actually anything like that.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I think it's flat Stick Academy. Let me see here.
I'll let you know. Yeah, it's flat Stick Academy. Or
it's David or also hang on, David, we'll see here.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I'm not really good with the social media stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I post.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Most of my before and after is on my Facebook page.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Okay, good, so you see the quality of the.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Work and if they want to see like okay, because
I have a one hour, two hour, three hour session. Okay.
Most of my clients are from out of state, out
of country. Yeah, and they do a two hour or
three hour session. Right. If you're doing an hour, you're
wasting your money. To be honest with you, don't don't.
Don't even sign up like people. There's a reason why
(38:42):
I'm five hundred an hour for an hour, because you
don't need to be taking an hour.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, I can attest you for any of you guys
that are interested in that, I mean definitely it's well
worth the time and the we always talk every week
about you know, dropping knowledge bombs. You're your head will
be exploded by the amount of information you'll learn from David.
And to me, the cool thing for me personally, it
was how it was simple, actionable. It was like it
(39:10):
was almost it was like, how did I not know that?
And it makes so much sense, And it's grounded in research,
just like everything we do at Parker Success.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
And and you.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Know, David, I can't thank you enough for coming on here,
taking this time to chat with me and and and
you know, share all your knowledge with everybody. And it's
it's been good to see you again, my friend.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Good to see you, and I'm glad to see that
your business is expanding and that you got your dream,
your new building.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We've been very blessed. It's been a it's been quite
a ride and honored to have you have you along
along the way. So it's been it's been awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
So thank you so much. Enjoyce yep, thank you, yep
for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
All right, guys, then check out the you know, thanks
as always for hanging out with us, and we'll we'll
catch you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Golf Fitness Bomb Spot.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm your host Chris Binn and I'm excited today to
have probably one of the most impactful people in my
personal game but also professionally. This honored to have this
this man here. He was one of the first what
I would call famous teachers to actually talk to me
way back in the day. We have David or the
(00:35):
he's known as the just the putting genius. We get
along great, just absolute nerds of the game and everything data.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So David, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thanks Chris, and it's great to be on this show.
It's great to see your new building, your success. And
obviously a lot of my clients are your clients as well,
so that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, no, it's I always think back to the first
times we met. I came down, I think you were
over at Keith Hill's still at that point we're on
the putting Green and jumped in the car. We went
over to where you had the big studio with yet
all the bricks signed and like I walked into that
building and I was like, this is my brother from
another mother. On the golf side, the data, the research,
(01:20):
the and it just from there. For those of you
who don't know David, I mean you've worked with some
of the biggest names on our working with some of
the biggest names in the game when it comes to
the flatstick, and you know, I'm excited today to kind
of dive into a lot of that and a lot
of the some of the new research we were just
talking about that you're you're looking at people don't think
(01:41):
about body and physical when they think about putting, and
I think you think that they should be, and from
all conversations it sounds like they really should, right.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, I mean, what's interesting about putting. Obviously you have
your basic skills of read, speed, line and name right,
your basic skill set. But what's what's involved with putting
is like coordination, like the ability to move, like to
establish maybe some disassociation at address between the rib cage
(02:16):
and the lower body and can I move my rib
cage separate from my pelvis or does my body move
as a whole right or associated.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So to speak? Right?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
So, so a lot of people don't think that way,
right that that I've got. You know, I might have
long arms or short arms, or long legs or short
legs and long tor so short tors all kinds of
combinations that make us look different but also move differently,
And that would be kind of interesting because with putting,
(02:47):
there is no one correct way to do it, if
that makes sense from a technique standpoint, but there are
better ways. And I would say that coordination, especially the
fine motor coordination, is the separator between people that struggle
being consistent versus people that can be extremely consistent, which
(03:10):
we can go over that here in a second if
you want to. When it comes to love to yeah,
well i'd be able to share my screen, I will.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, let me let me make sure you can share it.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And yeah, we're recording the screen too, you should be
able to, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, So we'll start with the four skills first, right, So,
one of the things that tour players are doing is
they're reading greens everywhere they go in the world. Every week,
it's a different green complex, maybe a different amount of
shape in the in the greens like we just saw
with Pinehurst number two, those are crowned greens, right, So
(03:50):
you can see on the telecast with the Bermuda grass,
you can kind of see the ridgeline where it's shiny
one way dull the other way. So crowned greens that
shape is a very difficult green to putt for any
level golfer.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right another state, as we saw.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, then then also you get what are called saddles,
which is the opposite of a crown, to be like
a spoon where it's going high low high, and if
the holes are down in the bottom of the saddle,
they're easier to put right. And then you know have
kind of planar greens where it's just sloped kind of uniformly. Yeah,
(04:29):
and then we get to what the average golfer sees,
which is kind of flattened level. So when they look
at a green, the amateur golfer looks at the green
as if it were flattened level, not flat and tilted
crowned or saddled right or tilted crowns like what we
saw at Finer. So the green complexes are much different
(04:51):
and much more difficult. However, the condition of the greens
are unbelievably good, and and you know, a lot of people,
you know, they saw Rory miss a couple of short ones,
but they were not reminded that he was forty four
hundred and ninety six out of four hundred and ninety
six up to that point right from inside three feet.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That's a pretty good streak.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, it is a very good streak. Matter of fact,
I think last year four or five guys when all
year made one hundred percent of them right in that instance.
But you know, you got to realize that the amount
of stress in the moment, right, you got a shot lead, right,
you only got you got a put on sixteen and
(05:37):
seventeen eighteen, basically got three holes to go. Yeah, and
sometimes you start to anticipate. You might have seen his
torso on the put on sixteen, the torso kind of
anticipated a little bit, which creates just a subtle little
pull right right, So he pulls the put on sixteen,
(05:58):
So what do you think is going to happen on eighteen?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
He's gonna try to not pull it, try.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
To not pull it on a left or right butt
and he actually got very thin. Yeah, the putter was
lifting too quickly and he kind of hit it a
little bit above the equator ish, and it was it
was a mishit basically right. So, but you know, if
you weren't in that stressful situation, that might not have
(06:25):
taken place. So I would not mark it up to oh,
something's got to be changed. It's just that that in
the moment there might have been a little bit out
being worried about the outcome as opposed to the process.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
The process, and do you find I always find just
playing with amateurs and versus playing with pros ilwouls see
a very big difference on how they approach. And he
talked about understanding how to read the green, looking at
the complex, the grain and the slope, and then also
the moment too, right, You know, I always joked by
play and we share some very high level students. I
(07:00):
play with them and there's a putt on the eighteenth
to win. Their demeanor is very different than my buddy
on eighteen to not lose five dollars. Right, he's more
nervous than the other guy. So can you speak to
like as an amateur going out to you know, who
wants to be a better putter? You know, and you
know you mentioned the process? Should they is there a specific.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Way to read the green?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And then and then ultimately how do they know like
if they miss a put it was it a bad
read or was it a bad stroke?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
We'll get into that in a minute. Yeah, So yeah,
So green reading is the number one skill that the
amateur golfer should get better at. It's also the easiest
skill to learn and to get better at, especially with
the ad point and now tour read up got two
options to learn, how to determine the break direction and
(07:51):
the break them out. Getting back to what I said previously,
the problem with the amateur golfer is they perceived the
green as flatter than it is. That's the problem, right,
So I can tell you a funny story. You know,
I've been doing green rereading since two thousand and seven,
the original end point stuff that Mark Swinney talked about,
(08:13):
long before A point express came about. And what's interesting,
I had gone to a tour event earlier this year
at Houston, and I'd gotten on the putting green and
something was I just couldn't perceive the green. And I'm
watching these balls curved like a ton. I'm working with
Alex Smalley and taking a peek at Alex Noran. Those
(08:33):
are the two guys that I've been working with this year,
and these balls are curving. And then when we got
the digital level out, I mean it's like two percent
of slow that Alex Molly was putting on, and I
kind of had to go back to my basics of Okay,
is the green flat level? No, it looks flat level?
Was not? It's flat and tilted. Oh, okay, it's flat
(08:56):
and tilted. So there's a high side and low side.
And then I had to start looking. Okay, he's putting
up and over a crown. There's a low high low,
and then the saddle is high low high. So I
had to literally start looking for shapes, those shapes in
the green. And then after about twenty minutes, like the
(09:20):
if my eyes could see it, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So cool.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's hard to see something when you don't know what
you're looking for. Right, makes sense. But if you know what,
I fell back on my training. Yeah, but even somebody
at expert level for that some reason, I couldn't see
it when I first stepped on that green because I'd
never been on that green.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah. So some people need to think of shape. Which
way is it shape?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
As opposed to whatever we normally think of as amateurs,
which maybe nothing.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Well, the real skill is being able to recognize break
direction and break them out. Okay, break direction first, that's
pretty easy based off the shape. Right, it's pretty easy.
You can kind of tell me what it's going to do.
But the break amount depends on so many things. It
depends on the speed of your ball, It depends on
(10:14):
the speed of the green, the effective speed of the green.
So even though these might be a ten, that's an average, right,
whereas you know, downhill on three percent of slope that
might be at I don't know, an effective stemp of
eighteen or twenty one, and then going back up the
slope it might only be a seven. So I think
a lot of golfers think in terms of distance. I
(10:35):
got a ten footer, Well, you got a ten footer
uphill into the grain, which is playing like a seven,
which is not much faster than your tea box, and
you're hitting a ten foot downhill, which is kind of
almost acting like not quite your hardwood floor. But I
mean it's golfers struggle with the change in the slope
(10:57):
and the change in the speed of the green, if
that makes.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Sense, and then we get mad when we leave it
five ft short.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, it's funny because I'll be listening to two guys
warming up on the practice screen. The guy's been hitting
all uphill putts and the other guy's been hitting downhill
putts and the guy from the hitting downhill putts will say, man,
these are fast, faster than the club, right, yeah, And
then of course everybody's got to interrupt our. So the
(11:27):
guy hitting downhill is like, man, these are faster than
our club, and then the guy hitting uphill goes, what
are you talking about? These things are slow. To listen
to that that dialogue going on between guys warming up,
and it's like, dudes, you're on three percent slow. Yeah, yeah,
and one's playing up hill, one's playing down hill. They
(11:47):
don't even realize it, right, but yeah, but now getting
into the real difference, and I'm going to kind of
share my screen.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, for sure, the hardest.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
The hardest skill and golf is starting the ball on
the line right. In order to do that, you actually
have to have a very very very precise delivery of
the club, specifically the club face. We're going to take
a look at a tour player and his how much
(12:19):
he changes the club face from address to impact. Okay,
so can you guys see these numbers pretty good there?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, we can see him if and if for those
of you who are listening in your car, and now
we're going to put all this in the show notes
and everything so you can actually see the recording at
another time.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
But yeah, this is awesome for everyone who's watching this.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, so what we did was we hit a ten
foot pot on every angle to the slope. So if
you imagine six o'clock is uphill, twelve o'clocks downhill, right, Yeah,
So the one point zero close the first the first
number there, this was this is Alex Alex Marley, PGA
tour player. He pulled it, pulled the putt just kind
(13:03):
of went just slightly left. He pulled it one degree.
M makes sense, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Then we went how big just to give context, how
big of a of an impact is one?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I don't want?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Like one degree change and a driver going one hundred
twenty miles an hours massive? How big is a one
degree change in putting?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, to me, a degree is a mile. How much
would be a degree off in your spine?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Or a degree off right right? So it's a degree
is a mile right now, so he would he would
feel a one degree pull right now. The next putt
was at five o'clock. It was zero point five open,
but it's a right to left putt and me, he
makes it because the club face is open just enough,
(13:47):
so the ball starts a little bit higher and then
comes into the face. So it wasn't a perfect stroke,
but it was the face was up the slope a
little bit right, right. Yeah, Then he misses the next
one at four o'clock at zero point one, So basically
he underread that pot. He had a good stroke, but
(14:10):
underread it a little bit right. Now, what's interesting is
he makes the next one at three o'clock again the
face zero point two. These are like small numbers, tents
of a degree.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Then he makes a perfect stroke and misses it on
the high side, so he overreaded it. He had a
zero point zero club face, no face between the address
and impact right and missed it.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I could have missed it because of speed, but he
misread it because of the read because I was there
get feedback and getting feedback. Zero point three open On
the next pot at two o'clock, he made that one.
The zero point four, yeah, I believe that's one o'clock.
He missed that one. And then yeah, so let's see,
(14:58):
we got to get this right. Sixty five four three
to one, twelve o'clock zero point four missed it. Then
he made the zero point zero. So the read the
reed matched the seed, match the stroke was. That would
be one perfect stroke out of six putts. Wow, okay,
now what's interesting. We get over to the next page.
(15:20):
Zero point zero missed it. Okay, I misread it just
a little bit. Now this next one that has a
green box around it. This was awesome. This is a
left to right putt and he makes the worst stroke
of the day and center cuts it. So he basically
pulled it right, his worst today basically pulled it into
(15:44):
the hole. That makes sense?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Is that just because he had lined up incorrectly, but
he missed it just enough.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
To We're built to survive, man, Yeah, brains built to
adapt and adjust, and our human nature resists chain right,
And he just pulled the living daylights out of it
because he misread it. And and that's why I put
a green box out of it, because when we talked it,
I sent these these this data to him. So just remember,
(16:12):
your worst stroke was to make So he's made one
put with a perfect stroke and he's made another pot
with his worst stroke. That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
That sounds like the game of golf to me.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It is the game of golf. Right, and then he's
left right parts zero point seven, closes zero point eight,
clothes and et cetera. Right, So, so what's interesting is
these are really tight numbers. To be honest with.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You, how what are those if an amateur goes, oh,
let's do let's do the amateur.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Let's let's take a look at what that looks like. Now,
this guy, as all the amateurs do. When they come
to see me, they tell me they're seventeen. Right, they
tell me that they're seventeen. It's like, right, But what's
interesting this is the hardest skill Chris.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, okay, so those numbers are wildly different.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Second, yeah, you know what I mean. Money. Yeah, so
this is the Sky's a great guy. He's a seventeen handicap.
And what's funny is he says to me, well, I
don't make my fair share of five to ten foot putts. Like, well,
let's measure you on some ten foot putts.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So you know the first plot, two degrees open, misses
it to the right, one point nine misses it to
the right. Oh we got one square missed it. Now,
what's interesting is to watch his behavior he starts aiming
more to left and pushing it more right. Remember these
numbers are change of face that they change from addressed impact. Okay,
(17:57):
so again a little face change, and all of a
sudden you can start to see it's getting three degrees open.
So he's aiming more left and then leaving the face
more open.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
He's got one five point three getting there.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You beat me to it, cow. So what's funny is
then we get on the next page and he misses
one way left because he's aiming left and doesn't open
the face and it's four close. So now he's scratching
his head. He doesn't know if he's going to miss
it left or miss it. That's right, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
(18:32):
So what's interesting is you look at the face change.
It's you know, it got tighter for a moment, and
then it's back to three point four, then zero point eight,
one point four, four point one. Like if you go
back to Alex Smalley's numbers, they didn't change that much.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
No, the entire variable was less than one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So this right here is why the amateur golfer struggles
with putting.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's because of the just the lack of consider and
is it because they have a poor feedback loop. And
what they think is.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, so great question. Feedback is huge, right, Yeah, you
have to measure it, but you don't know if it's
your face is open or closed. These people can't feel that, right, right,
So you make them aware of it by using technology,
and then they start to see the numbers and then
after a while they go, oh, yeah, that did feel open.
(19:29):
Oh yeah, that felt closed.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So what he's doing is changing his behavior on the slope.
Misses a few, right, then he starts aim and left,
starts aim and left, leaving the face more open.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And then and then I'm assuming that the net the
average amateur who gets on a quote unquote heater with
the putter just kind of it's like games left and
keeps it open just enough, and it's lucky.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So what's funny is I always d the analogy if
you and I went to Las Vegas and you had
the skill set of counting cards, yep, and I did
not have the skill set of counting cards, who would
be luckier?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You would be?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
So a tour player has the skill set of being
able to read a green anywhere they go in the world.
They have the ability to adjust to the speed and
just a few putts they are as tight. Let's go
ahead and pull Alex Smalley back up here again. Just
one of his just one of his numbers right side
by side, so our folks can see the difference in
(20:37):
face change, right.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So it's literally eighty percent less variation.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean, so this is now let's talk about
how to get the amateur golf for better fast.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, let's do So.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You got to realize Alex Smalley hits in his warm up.
He hits twenty putts down a chalk line. I can
tell you right off the bat that's going to get
you within a degree degree and a half. He also
sets up with a putting mat that has a perpendicular
for the face. So if you have a perpendicular with
(21:18):
the face and you're starting the ball on the chalk
line or laser line, you have that, you're going to
reduce this space change significantly very quickly. Now, what if
we throw technology on there for feedback? Yeah, now you
can get it under half a degree. But you have
(21:39):
to know what those fields are and what those stations are.
And what's funny is that the amateur golfers that I
have been working with, especially as their level gets better,
like they go from a say somebody that's a seventeen
like this one guy right, and then you get a
five handicap and then down to a zero or a
plus two, or somebody that's played in college Division three
(22:00):
versus playing Division one. As their level gets the numbers
get tighter. And this is why coordination fine motor coordination
with a stick and a ball, hockey players tend to
do good. There's no line on the puck and there's
no line on the hockey blade. Write that downact Yet
(22:20):
how precise are they with the stick in the puck?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Right? The players?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Right? Tennis players, stick and ball, stick and ball sports.
That is, I have found that people that have played
stick and ball sports do well with putting. People that
have not done well, that don't do well did not
play sports.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That tracks in terms of neurodevelopmental and everything from time
their kid.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You just beat me to it. You just beat me
to it. So the brain's not developed enough to be
coordinate enough or precise enough to be that precise. But
what's the one thing I'm going to say is the
butt thing here? Ready? The amateur golfer can improve the fastest.
(23:06):
It's just a matter of how you're training it and
how you're learning.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's it's like the first time you and I met
and I said, well, David, your hip doesn't move, But
the good news is there's a lot of upside.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Well, the good news is we can get to move right.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, So what's interesting is just getting on the putting
green more than you are right now. Like, if you're
getting on the putting green for only thirty minutes a week,
I think your expectations need to be changed compared to
somebody that's getting on the putting green five hours a week,
or like my tour players ten hours a week, or
(23:45):
like my best putters that I work with fifteen hours
a week. That makes sense. I try to hit one
hundred putts a day, one hundred reps a day, and
I track them all. Some days it's two hundred. That's
when the old so as gets real and tight.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, So we're going to talk about posture in a minute.
But the average golfer, so learning to read a green
should be their number one and easiest skill to develop.
Number two, recognizing that, yeah, I have a ten footer
uphill versus ten foot or downhill. It's not the distance
that they're struggling with, it's the speed that they're struggling with.
(24:26):
And then why don't I make my fair share of
potts as well? Look at the tour player on the
left and look at the amateur golfer on the right.
I mean that's a seventeen dude. Yeah, that's a seventeen
right there.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Variants That's that's wild.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I don't know how you came up with that, but
it does look that that crazy, doesn't it? Right?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I mean you got basically zero to five and zero
to one, and that's so you got a variance one
versus five, and that's that's that's that's everyone who's not
If you're just listening to this, you need to need
to pull over and watch this.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Click the link and watch this, because this is this
is wild.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
This is not to say that the seventeen handicapper doesn't
make any putts occasionally mm hm. That you got to
get back to what his statement was and what his
expectations were. I'm not making my fair share like he's titled. Yeah,
to make it more right, it's like me going to
Las Vegas with you and going you know, Chris, I
(25:21):
didn't make my fair share of money back.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Vegas didn't give us our share of winnings, David, Hey
did not, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
What I mean? But you got more than I did.
I lost everything, and at least you brought home enough
money to eat.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Right exactly exactly, So this was pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I wanted to to just show this because I don't
think the average amateur really understands what it takes. Because putting.
Putting is supposed to be the simplest part of the game,
right then, Okay, if putting is the simplest part of
the game, wouldn't the vast majority of golfers be really
(25:58):
good at it?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You would think, yeah, you would think why are Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I think it goes to everything that you said.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I mean, just the base, the pattern recognition of the
greens that I would I would argue, correct me if
I'm wrong. I mean, do most golfers that come to
see you amateurs even know, like what a zero break
line is?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah? Well, it's just a straight put down and straight
put up, you know. And that can be the same
as the fall line, and it can also not be
if there's a shape right right. But you know, if
you have this right, you know pretty plainer. The fall
line and the zero break line are pretty much almost
on top of each other. But yeah, just understanding the
(26:47):
direction of the slope. I mean, you know, I'm a
skier and that's like the number one fundamental is getting
your skis into the fall line and carving back out.
So it's it's uh, skiers have been judging slope a
lot longer than golfers have. I can tell you that.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
For sure, and at a much faster speed too.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Oh yeah, So I think for our listener out there,
you've got to develop your green rating skills number one.
Number two, you've got to adapt quicker to the speed
of the greens. It's not just your distance, it's the
distance and slope and the effect of speed of the green,
and then your ball speed, right, and then starting the
(27:28):
ball line and chalk lines for outdoors, laser lines for indoors,
and if you can get some type of perpendicular alignment
that will help you with reducing the face change between
where you're aimed and where it is at impact. And
that's what those charts were is how much does the
tour player change the face. Now you can do this, Okay.
Brad Faxon is always closing the face about zero point
(27:52):
seven zero point six, zero point six, zero point six,
zero point one, zero point four, but it's always closing.
The path is maybe half a degree from the inside.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
But his stuff is.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well organized, right. What goes with the closing face is
a path that's slightly right. That's why he's his stroke
is so elite, but it's tight. The variance is very tight, right.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So is that is that something that would that be
fair to say that?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You see the great putters have tight variances, but potentially
different strokes based on their body and and all of.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Those sorts of things. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, So let's just kind of go there. Okay, So Chris,
let's talk about let's talk about the body. Everybody's body
is different. So one of the things that's been fascinating
for me for the last I don't know, three to
five years. Well, I've been studying the body for ten years.
With the twelve years ecuse me, with the GVD measuring
(28:53):
the you know, I've shown you some of the data.
We've got facts in and Rory and Hunter Mayhan and
Justin Rose and Suzanne Petterson and like all these top
players and what they didn't They all do it differently, right,
and the reason why they do it differently is they're
built differently. So let's just kind of talk about what
(29:14):
would be some basic body builds that you're seeing that
you're you guys obviously do that, don't you. You measure
limb lengths and.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, yeah, you got some people that you know, I
mean obviously of your three basic types of body types, right,
your endomorphs, your ectomorphs, your your mesomorphs, and but then
within those, you're going to have some people that have
really long arms, some people have really short arms, some
people have big bellies that get in the way. You know,
there's lots of different Yeah, you have some people who
(29:42):
just don't have any mobility at all. They're locked in
internal rotation in their shoulders. Like I played in the
North Carolina the other week with a guy who was
six ' eight and couldn't have weighed more than one
hundred and forty pounds. He was super tall and skinny
and like, so he's clearly like so there's to your point,
there's lots of different body types out.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
There that you're gonna run around, run into.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that's why we look different. Right, So that's why
the stroke looks different. So you take that tall six
to eight guy, their shoulder joint can be much more
externally rotated, the arm can be like the little like
they can go into hyper extension of the elbow, donate
the form, and their arms look really straight when they pot.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Then you take the guy that you know, the former
football player when he was in college and now he's
fifty five, and you know he's like literally like you know,
his elbows and everything looks like this, right, he's yeah, exactly.
So you know, one of the things that I've learned
is not to fight somebody's body type, but to use it.
(30:49):
So if you go on my Facebook and you see
before and afters, I'm considering torso length, not just length
the legs, but length of femur versus tibia tippviv. I'm
looking at the humorous length versus the form length, also
the hand, the fingers. I'm also looking at the feet,
(31:12):
the Q angle of the femur, and I'm also or
the O angle and I'm looking at the feet. Are
they pronated supinated? What part of their arch they tend
to stand on, and then the shoes. I made a
funny post. I had this kid, and I put them
in pressure insoles. So I've got what's called belt bell
(31:32):
on pressure insoles that I could put in. It's like
a walking around pressure mat, right, And his center pressure
was extremely towards his toes and he was in major
major doors reflection with the ankle knee flexion and just
everything was so far forward. And what's funny is he
(31:54):
had a heel stack. He had one of those G
four's with the high heel standing on this ramp. Yeah,
it literally moves you more forward.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
He was.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
So my first question people think I'm crazy when I
start asking about putter fitting, is like, are those the
shoes that you're going to use when you practice and play?
Because the length of the putter that I put at
is going to be determined by that. I'll stacked off
the ground.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Are you right?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Did you ever notice me take the shoes off your
putters really long?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh? Yeah, those new.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
G fours and you got to go put an extension
in it, right, exactly. That's the first question I ask,
is you know what, so I'm doing a complete body assessment.
You know what's interesting is not just I preference eye dominance,
eye preference. But you know, some people might have a
motor preference in a shoulder joint right, So I'm lead
(32:58):
shoulder pref trail shoulder right balanced, you know, going down
through all the joints and looking what their preference of
movement is. Because one of the things that I've learned
is that what's the engine of your stroke? Well, everybody
says my shoulders, but yeah, you look at the data
and almost almost everybody has some arm movements and elbow
(33:22):
movements and some wrist movements. Even though they're small, they
have some, right, So that's part of the coordination is
the putters the third arm, So then my fingers and
hands and wrists, and then my forearms and elbows and
et cetera all the way up to the chain. I
tend to putt with my shoulders the prime engine, but
that doesn't mean I don't have any coordination going on
(33:43):
where into your hands, fingers exactly exact exactly. So yeah,
So for our viewers, if somebody had a long torso
and say short legs, I see a lot of hip pinch.
I see I wish I had short legs, because we
(34:06):
sent our mass to be closer to the ground, right.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
But what's interesting is somebody could have a long torso,
short legs and long arms, and they might be in
a really short cutter.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Right yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, they also be
a great dead they'd be a great deadlifter. They wouldn't
have to go they wouldn't have to go very far
off the ground, exactly that terrible bench presser, but great deadlifter.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Then you got yours, truly, who's got extremely long legs,
extremely long upper arms, and a very short waist like
my wife is like four to five inches taller than
I am sitting in a chair.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Wow wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
So these are things that you know, have to be considered.
So if I, if you're to take me to do
a hip pinge, I would have I would immediately fall
back on my heels m h immediately. It probably couldn't
do I probably couldn't do a squat. That makes sense. Yeah,
So these are the things that affect balance in putting.
(35:13):
That makes sense. It also affects the position of your
arms and your elbows and even your wrists and fingers
and clubs. So a lot of people say, well, how
how putting's just so simple. Well, putting is simple if
if the surface was flatten level, if every if the
putt was just distance and direction. Right, what makes the
(35:36):
putting strokes so unique is we're all built differently, We're
all so asymmetrical.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And then is that where then the putter like changing
upright versus a mallet versus like, is that where all that.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Starts to come into the equation of.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
It can especially when you view the putters a third arm.
That's how I look at it. My men toward Maco
Brady said, the golf club's a third arm. Yeah, you know,
so you can. You know, putter fitting right now is
kind of all over the place because people are using
cutter fitting is a means to sell putters as opposed
to there is no standard way to assess somebody's hutting
(36:20):
stroke and movement pattern. Where there's no standard way. Now
there's there's some guys that are a lot smarter at
it than other people.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
It's funny. I'll get people that walk in the door
and go, yeah, I just got putter fit by was it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Champion club champion? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, And they got on a Sam Potte lab and
they come in and I'm like this putter is like
too short the gripsay. Oh, by the way, putter weighs
about six hundred grams total weight, and you know fact
putters under five hundred, Tigers putters under five hundred. Stan
Utley's butter is under five hundred total Brams, I'm not
(36:57):
talking about total, that's.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Jeff everything, grip everything. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah, Stan Outlay's under five hundred, and you're coming in
here with six hundred. I hope they're swinging it like Bryson.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I hope the plane of it is really up and down,
because that's one of the markers that the flatter, the
flatter the plane of the sweet spot fat, the fat
flatter the face plane is. That's where the weight change is.
I can be lighter, if I'm flatter, if I'm more upright,
I can be a sledgehammer, got it. Yeah. A lot
(37:32):
of people are putting with hutters that are not fit
for them.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, David, I can't thank you enough for coming on today.
For all of you guys who are interested in getting more,
hearing more of David Stoff. Obviously the website, we'll put
all the links there. On social media, you're just at
David or what's their at plastic? What's the best place
for people to find you?
Speaker 3 (37:53):
So on Facebook it's David Orr.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Okay, I know about Instagram or actually anything like that.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I think it's flat Stick Academy. Let me see here.
I'll let you know. Yeah, it's flat Stick Academy. Or
it's David or also hang on, David, we'll see here.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I'm not really good with the social media stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I post.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Most of my before and after is on my Facebook page.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Okay, good, so you see the quality of the.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Work and if they want to see like okay, because
I have a one hour, two hour, three hour session. Okay.
Most of my clients are from out of state, out
of country. Yeah, and they do a two hour or
three hour session. Right. If you're doing an hour, you're
wasting your money. To be honest with you, don't don't.
Don't even sign up like people. There's a reason why
(38:42):
I'm five hundred an hour for an hour, because you
don't need to be taking an hour.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, I can attest you for any of you guys
that are interested in that, I mean definitely it's well
worth the time and the we always talk every week
about you know, dropping knowledge bombs. You're your head will
be exploded by the amount of information you'll learn from David.
And to me, the cool thing for me personally, it
was how it was simple, actionable. It was like it
(39:10):
was almost it was like, how did I not know that?
And it makes so much sense, And it's grounded in research,
just like everything we do at Parker Success.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
And and you.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Know, David, I can't thank you enough for coming on here,
taking this time to chat with me and and and
you know, share all your knowledge with everybody. And it's
it's been good to see you again, my friend.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Good to see you, and I'm glad to see that
your business is expanding and that you got your dream,
your new building.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We've been very blessed. It's been a it's been quite
a ride and honored to have you have you along
along the way. So it's been it's been awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
So thank you so much. Enjoyce yep, thank you, yep
for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
All right, guys, then check out the you know, thanks
as always for hanging out with us, and we'll we'll
catch you on the next episode.
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