June 26, 2024 • 31 mins
In an exclusive interview, a former student at Washington State University breaks down what it was like having Bryan Kohberger as her Teacher’s Assistant for her criminology course, both leading up to and after the murders.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We all like to believe in our hearts that if
we come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd
get a Spidey sense. Did you have that feeling that
he was capable or off?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However,
I do remember this one incident that happened.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode three, In Class with Coburger,
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie
Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. On November thirteenth, twenty twenty two,
(00:54):
the murders of four young co eds at the University
of Idaho left senseless tragedy in its wake, from the
lives loss, to devastated family members and friends, to terrified
students left behind wondering what's next. But beyond that is
what transpired and accused murderer Brian Coeberger's orbit. We don't
(01:17):
know of Coberger's guilt or innocence. He is presumed innocent
unless otherwise determined in a court of law. What we
do know is that the accused was a criminology PhD
student and teacher's assistant at Washington State University, Pullman. We
also know that after the murders, up until he left
(01:37):
campus in mid December, Coberger attended classes in an effort
to gain a greater understanding of what happened during that time.
Stephanie Leidecker speaks with a former criminology student in Coburger's class, Cassie.
Cassie has never spoken out before, and we'rewithholding her last
name to protect her privacy. Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
There's been a lot of press about this case out there,
so really our goal is always like less about the
massacre itself and more about the human experience. Right, you
have such a unique perspective on that. So take me
back to day one, how you got to that particular
school and what you're studying and kind of even the
(02:24):
first day of class. Are you a criminology major?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Not anymore? No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Is that the event sometimes paths shift, right, So your
destiny has been obviously wildly affected by this particular crime,
so for obvious reasons. So yeah, just take me back
to your experience at school and kind of how you
made it to that class.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
All right, Well, I thought about criminology for a while
because it's just like it's so interesting to get into
you get to learn about literally the criminal behavior of
these criminals mind and like what works. And so I
was also considering psychology at the time, which is now
my major. I had that as a minor.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
But yeah, so the.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Second WAG I remember going, and he did introduce Brian
and his other TA. I forgot his name, and then
just kind of went into the details of the class.
And this class was pretty big. I would say like
three hundred students. It was a lecture hall, so very
very big class.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Just for clarity, Brian Coberger, the accused, he was the
teacher's assistant, right, we always call it a TA, but
that's short for teacher's assistant, right.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, so he was the teacher's assistant, their little helper
while they're still in school, basically just to get the knowledge.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So to be a teacher's assistant, it's kind of like
a secondary teacher obviously, right, they're a current student. In
Brian's case, he was getting his PhD and was also
working as a teacher's assistant in this particular criminology class,
which makes sense. They with grading and do they participate
(04:03):
in class. They do.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Usually it's when a teacher notices a kid doing up
in a booth, so kind of like just doing all
their work, just really like teaching others. That's just kind
of like how they pick out the tas just who
stands out to them.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So, so Brian was probably a pretty exemplary student in
order to even have that kind of a prestigious place.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Definitely, definitely, yeah, I think so he definitely had had
some knowledge to get in there, and our professor was
a very tough dude, so he it had to take
a lot for him to see something.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
In a statement, Washington University's vice president of Marketing and
Communication says that quote, mister Cobacker receives an appointment as
a teaching assistant at Washington State University during the fall
twenty twenty two semester. It is typical for students to
receive a teaching assistantship or similar appointment as part of
their PhD pro Wheeler explained here again, Cassie and Stephanie,
(05:09):
what was.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
The class about?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We covered literally how to get away with murder? Like
we covered pretty good basis because our professor at the time,
he was a very like knowledgeable man like he worked
with judges and he was a lawyer for years and
he worked with a lot of authority. So he wanted
to teach it how he learned, which was case studies,
(05:31):
like actually living it. So we went into a lot
of detail about criminal behavior, the behavior why criminals do
the thing. But this was more about cases. We would
look over like a lot of cases and things like that,
and we would go over the law, so a lot
of just criminal justice things, a lot of lawyer and
(05:52):
judge work.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Is there a part of you because I'm still on
the fence of I really want to believe that Ryan
Colberger is innocent. He claims his innocence. I want to
believe that because I like to believe that a human
being couldn't pull that off. But again, I don't know
him the way you do. Is there a part of
you that thinks maybe he is innocent? There is?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah. I've had like a lot of people reach out
to me just kind of like bashing him, like a
lot of just like newspapers and stuff like that, kind
of just like oh like trying to get like every
little scoop out of me to make him out to
be a bad guy, but in reality, like, this is
someone's life that we're talking about, and it's like his
reality as well, So it's there's a lot to take
(06:35):
into like consideration there, like why would you want someone
to go through all that and do all that and
to think that they would, you know, be capable of
something like that. Like it just blows my mind how
people are thinking about.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
This case in retrospects. What did he seem?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Like? I remember walking in Actually he was pretty noticeable,
believe it or not. But I walked in, saw him,
and he just didn't say anything. For weeks, he just
like stood there fiddling with his cup, and you this
class was like an hour and a half long, sometimes
up to two hours, Like it just depended. It was
a very long class for him to just be standing
(07:13):
up in the front of everyone. So when I was
bored in the class, I would honestly just watch him
because I had nothing to do.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I already like looked at.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
The notes and stuff, and so I would just like,
there's nothing else to watch.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And did that seem weird to have somebody just standing
there for an hour and a half? Is that normal
or is that odd? Behavior?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
With my other tas are definitely like on their laptop,
and sometimes you would see him like go on here
and there, but never for like more than like ten minutes,
I would say, Or he would just like sit down
in front of the class, or sometimes he wouldn't even
be there, just be the professor. But compared to our
other ta, he would be on his laptop, our teacher
would be asking him to go do ta things like hey,
(07:56):
can you pull up this lecture and stuff like that.
I just never saw any of that from Ryan.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Was he just also observing the class or did it
seem like he was just staring off into.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Space, off to space? Honestly? He would look up a
couple of times, honestly, just like in his own little world.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And did he seem like he was interested in the
content or like you know how somebody you could see
them and they look like they already know the information,
so they're kind of just nodding along. Or was he
kind of checked out?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I would say both most of the time, when like
he just he looked like me in that situation, like
he was just like sometimes nodding here and there. I
remember the professor trying to get his attention a couple
of times and take him a couple of times, like
snap into it.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So here you are, you're in your criminology class. You're
just observing three hundred ish people around you, and yeah,
you just sort of are looking at the people in
front of you. So in this case, it's the professor
into additional teacher assistants. He's one of them. And did
Brian Coburger and the other teacher assistant have any kind
(09:05):
of a rapport?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
No? I think I saw them together in the class
maybe one time, but other than that they were either
switching off or there was no tea at all.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll lead back in
a moment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
How would you describe him physically?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
He had a very clean look, very always shaven, very
like hair done. He was always wearing like sweaters and
jeans and looked nice. He was tall, white, dark hair,
very skinny, slim, slim fit. He just always seemed like
he was just there, not interacting or anything, just there.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
He had said that he seemed noticeable at first, was noticeable,
the fact that he was so quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I guess so I would. I just wasn't what I
was expecting when I first walked in the class. It
was a lot to take in all the ones. I
feel like we're getting a lot of information, and half
the time my brain would just check out and just
automatic eyes to him because he was the only other
person down there. Did he have any friends, Uh, not
that I saw. I mean, he was a very closed
(10:21):
off ta someta's like to share about their life and
give us a whole PowerPoint stuff and he never saw
that one from him, So I don't know much about
his personal life, but very kept to himself. Anytime I
saw him on campus or in class or office hours.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Did you have office hours with him?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yes, it would be with a couple kids. I only
went twice. Both times were unhelpful, so I left. It's
basically just like a time to ask him questions, to
ask him about work, to do work with him, to
need help on case studies, just anything like that, or
even studying for like a next exam or quiz. Those
(11:01):
are what office I was just supposed to be for.
But most of the time there's just a bunch of
kids kind of either doing group work together or just
a quiet place like study or wherever, and he would
just be like on his lap, up close off like
to himself.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Did he ever ask any personal questions to you.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No. No. I remember like trying to have a conversation
one time because I need help with one of the assignments,
and it was just kind of like, well, did you
review the work? And I'm like, yes, I reviewed the
work and so kind of gave my attitude back, but
it was yeah, I don't know. After that time, I
(11:39):
think I just didn't end up going.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So everybody wants to know the same thing, right. We
all like to believe in our hearts that if we
come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd get
a spidy sense or people always talk about I had
a sixth sense, So you know, kind of part of
even why it's so important to talk about this stuff is,
I'm so curious, did you have that feeling that he
(12:03):
was capable or off people have called him in the
press very creepy in retrospect, or did he just seem
like an ordinary guy?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However,
I do remember this one incident that happened when I
went into class. And usually you sit next to like
a different person every day. It's not like everyone's like, buddy, buddies,
So sit down, and the dude next to me, like
straight off the bat when Brian came in, was like, oh,
(12:40):
doesn't he give you like weird vibes? And I was like,
and that's like one comment that since now I'm like,
oh my gosh, Like how did I get He said
something about his eyes. It was like in the eyes
and now that I'm looking at him, and I'm like, yeah,
I guess that makes sense, but me personally.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, So like in the days leading up, so I
would imagine it's just business as usual. Right Thanksgiving break
is on the horizon. You guys are taking finals probably
or at least preparing for finals. Did anything seem out
of the ordinary in the days leading up to the
murders in terms of your experience with Brian.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I would say that before we even like heard, so
there was like a time period of right when finals
were happening and like right after and it was straight
a's a lot of really good grades and good comments
from Brian himself. But before that it was not so good,
(13:39):
very harsh grading, very not great. But and I talked
to so many of my classmates and then like, did
you notice your grades going up? And he would go
in detail on my work and like all my other
classmates work about how good it was. But you can
tell like the difference from before that it was like no,
like UNI fixes your grand you know, all that little
(14:01):
nitty picky stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Cassie's experience with Coburger is not unique. It's been reported
that former students have said he quote seemed preoccupied after
the slayings and became an easier grater. But Coburger's change
in affect wasn't the only notable thing. Here's more from Cassie.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
We also got a lot of complaints. I personally didn't
see a problem in it, but a lot of the
female writers and all that, because we do a lot
of case studies and we'd have to make reports on them.
A lot of people just thought he was very sexist
as a TA, especially in like one on ones apparently
like he showed just a lot of anger towards them
(14:47):
in a way which I'd never experienced that, So I
don't know, that's just what I got from my other classmates.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I had heard reports of that as well. Like you know,
there was a lot written about the fact that he
did these posts to prisoners behind bars or people to
who have committed crimes, like he almost did this poll
to see what their personality traits were like, or you know,
when they knew it was time to kill or sort
(15:15):
of it seemed as though he was profiling murderers right
to sort of better understand how their brain worked. And
then the day this hideous day happens. Tell me about
that day.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Honestly, it was just another day because when we all
heard about it, you were very we were very heartbroken,
but we didn't hear from the school or anything. We
just heard from like news. We didn't even know, like
it didn't even click that it was in Idaho at
u of I, and so like maybe the next week,
like is when it like really hit me in my
(15:50):
roommate and anyone close to me really like it just
didn't register. And then when everything started catching up over
breaking stuff is when it really just hit me in
all like, oh my gosh, like this is pretty close.
And then when I really started to realize is when
I would get calls from out of state family and
they'd be like, you know, you got to get home,
(16:11):
like it's almost break, like weren't you there early and
all that stuff, and my mom and my dad, my siblings,
just constant calls about, you know, get my ass home,
because it's getting a little scary, especially when they hadn't
like caught him and all that.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
During that time there was a national man hunt. It
must be a very scary feeling to know that there
is a killer at large, frankly targeting beautiful girls like
yourself in the same exact age group.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It was pretty scary because everyone at WSU was wondering,
what are we supposed to do because you and I
had already set a curfew and they took, you know, precautions,
and they didn't they closed like class for a couple
of days or something like that. You know, they took
their precautions, but WSU was like, no, they send out
an email. They were like, this has nothing to do
(17:02):
with us. We you know, they were like, we send
our love to the families. You know, they expressed that
pretty well. But they were also like, this is our business.
We will continue class. We will not have a man
you know, curfew. And then to think that it was
like under their own roof is like, oh, like, are
you kidding? And for the people like myself and the
(17:26):
couple other hundred kids who stayed when everyone else left
when they found out there was a murder on the loose.
That's terrifying. Like he was like probably on campus, you know,
doing his thing until he left for his break, and
the fact that he was in class and still replying
to our campus notifications, and I would get like I
(17:48):
remember looking at all the emails that he sent me
after it all happened, and a couple of weeks later,
they were just gone, and I was like, oh my god, what.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Does that mean? They were gone, like they got moved.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, so any canvas notifications I had from him any
because I literally remember like looking through all of them
and I was like just you know, kind of like
observing all them and seeing if I noticed anything. And
I had all of his little edits and stuff then
and then I went back one day to look at them,
and Camus had removed all them. It was just very
(18:24):
in detail, good notes about my work after everything happened,
very like it wasn't short and sweet.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
So this man potentially murdered four people and then he
went back to class and then he still continued to
grade papers and maybe did it in a lighter, happier way. Yes, Yeah,
So like what do you make of that? Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think he was definitely trying to if it was him,
could possibly like not be him. But I think if
it was he was trying to cover it up, you know,
in a way obviously. And that's like the first thing
you do after it all goes down. You kind of
want to act like nothing happened, maybe even make yourself
seem a little bit better, maybe more better guy then
(19:20):
some of your classmates might describe you. You know, you
don't want to hear about how you might be a
sexist the when you just kill like three girls, like
that's not you want to sere completely opposite of that.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
There were so.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Many things that he did that just didn't make sense.
If you were getting your PhD in criminology or criminal
justice or whatever, why would you go the route of
revisiting the place so many times and not checking your
phone being that's one of the first things we learned
in class everything how you get caught, and so he
(19:54):
already had this down. So it just it doesn't really
make sense why he would do so many things to
jeopardize people catching them.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
We were just reviewing this yesterday, so it sounds like
he was pinged, just to bring anybody up to speed.
So his cell phone pinged about fifteen times in and
around the area leading up to the murders and then after.
But I can't agree with you more. It doesn't totally
add up. That's so interesting to me that you really
did study that.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Tell me everything you can remember about the days after.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
The days after. Physically, it was his eyes for me,
they were very sunken and very black. It was like
he hadn't sleeped in like days, maybe weeks. That's just
what the appearance look like. But I was never one
to judge. I was like, okay, long night, we have
finals coming up. It's okay, but yeah, that's one of
the main things. And I guess a lot of unshavenness
(21:07):
and a little messier and then right after you could
tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Can you describe what it was like to find out
that Brian Coberger, your teacher's assistant, had been arrested and
accused of the murders.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. So I was in my dorm in the Olympia
dorm at WSU with my roommate, and I remember we
were looking at a case because it came out. She's like, oh,
I'm going to look at it. I was like, okay, yeah,
just tell me. I was cleaning or whatever, and she
was like, holy shit, Cassie, like it says criminology. And
(21:45):
I was like, no way, and she was like, you
have to go on campus right now. I was like,
why are you freaking out? Like she wouldn't really tell
me at first, and then she was like, who's your TA?
So I told her and then she was like there's
no way you're not to believe this, and so we
both started freaking out. And yeah, that was the moment.
And then she was kind of like, I need to
(22:06):
get the hell out of here. So she dipped a
little early for Thanksgiving break and yeah, I still to
save the extra week. So I was just kind of
like sitting with that information, and I remember not wanting
to go out because even before I remember my roommate
not letting me go out, like anytime I'd be like hey,
like like there's a party going out, No you're staying.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know, there's a.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Murderer out there, very hard lecture about not going out
and none of that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But it was just crazy when he went to class.
Was he participating in any of the conversations about the murders.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
No, but we did discuss it in class. We did
have Remember I Phil was from the school of the class,
but a lot of notifications I got from campus, you know,
like discussing the murderers, like kind of just like, hey,
like everyone needs to stay focused, but this is a
very troubled time, you know whatever, just giving a reminder
to all the classmates, like stay focused. But we did
(23:03):
talk about the case, and we even like kind of
went in details of everything that went down. I remember
a lot of people asking questions about it, so like
raising their hands and stuff, and there was a lot
so going around the room, and our professor was just
there answering the questions. And I don't remember seeing Brian
in class when we did talk about it. I remember
(23:24):
hearing that he was, but I didn't really go to class.
After everything happened, it kind of took me on a
kind of hit me a little bit where I was like,
this is getting a little too real. So I kind
of stepped back from criminology and all that.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You changed your major, huh, so, like criminology is not
your thing anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I will always have a special place in my heart
for chriminology, but I don't think it's my time or
you know, when everything happened, it just got so real
and I was like, this might not be for me
because I don't know. I was just thinking too psychic
psychologically into it, and so I changed my major to
my minor, which was psychology, hoping that leads to a
(24:07):
better future with that.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
It's very traumatic and I'm super sorry that you had
to even experience anything so close to something so disgusting.
Did you have any knowledge or did you know any
of the victims?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
No, I did not know a lot of people from
u OF I I knew a couple of people who
had friends who know, you know, like friend of a friend,
and so even then it affected them in such a
way you know, I could only imagine. And we did
have a couple like memorial stuff like a candle it
thing and a little other one to show work of
(24:44):
bys and place like flowers and pictures of them and
stuff like at the u OFI statue the plaque that
they have, So.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, it's pretty moving. Like even
as I talk to you, I feel for your mom
and dad because I would want you out of there.
It was it seemed means dangerous. You know, there's a
part of us that all think, oh my god, it
could be you, right, like he could have been staring
at you as a teacher's assistant and targeted you. What
do you make of it? So now, like over a
year now behind you, what is your take on it?
(25:15):
Is it possible? Like it is it track for you?
Is it impossible that he could have pulled this off?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
There is a very very clear like possibility that he
could have done this. And when you bring up alibi,
that's very like it just almost makes sense to cover
up like the missing pieces, Like if only there was
an alibi, it would all make sense. But there isn't,
at least from like what we all know. So it's
(25:43):
all still so confusing to say, like if you did
it or if you didn't. But there are just so
many things that he did after like the cell phone
paying and all that that just wouldn't make sense if
he didn't do it. So I don't know. I'm kinda
I'm leaning towards did it, but I also hold a
lot of sympathy still, I'm a very empathetic person, so
(26:05):
not to say, like what he did wasn't fucked up,
but if he didn't do it, like I still like
I'm still holding that, you know. And there was just
so much that went into it. It was all just
so much. I hope like one day it just all
gets figured out and can finally close the case.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And the school. Now, Like if everything sort of settles down,
do people still talk about it? Is it not a
big topic of conversation anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, when this like hit, it was like huge, biggest
thing that happened. But last year at WQU was a
very crazy year. It was a very sad year for Pulman,
and then this kind of hit and everyone it was
like a whole Pullman's name was changed to this is
where it happened, and so it was just traumatizing for
the entire school and even like myself and a lot
(26:55):
of people I knew, Like I even met people at
the Vancouver campus because I'm at the Vancouver campus now
who moved because of the situation. And I talked to
like so many people at my campus now who just
were like in my class sitting there like in front
of me now who I never met, like explaining to
me how hard it was for them, so where they
(27:16):
had to move because they couldn't like even be in
the same tiny little town anymore, Like it didn't feel
the same, which is just so sad to hear about.
And yeah, it's just very sad year for maybe a supplement.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
One last thing. I just got like covered in chills.
You bring up such a big point that I think
we should probably dive deeper in. He was only there
for a year, and you know, the victims have this,
you know, kind of iconically fun looking life. Is it
possible that he was just this outsider kind of wishing
to have it, or became obsessed with one of them
(27:54):
and just lost his mind one night, or was just
just a perfect storm that was brewing and they were
just the unfortunate targets, And it could have been anyone.
It's so hard to know.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
They both could be like such possible answers, crazy to
think about. Yeah, the party life at both schools were
both pretty big. If you weren't in the party life,
it was I can definitely seem more of an outsider
like standpoint. But then again, like everyone was so accepting.
If you would just walk up to any house, you'd
be in a party, Like no one would like kick
(28:31):
you out or anyth unless you're being weird, which could
be the case. But you know, very accepting schools, both
of them, very kind hearts. Everyone had a smile on
their face, and even when like tough times like this,
even we still like would have smiles on our faces.
We'd take a break from schools and like as a community,
not even like the school policy, like we would all
(28:51):
come together and be like we're we're gonna go to
a memorial instead, or we're going to hold this event
for them. So yeah, it was a very good community
to have while everything else was kind of fallen down
around us.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Just in closing, is there anything that we don't have
right that, just based on your experience just in general,
that people just have wrong.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Before the situation happened, they kind of make him seem
to be like this creep who didn't have anything for
him going. But he was like almost done with his life.
He was at his goal. He had so much of
a future ahead of him, and to say that he
didn't it is just straight out lies. It's not that
(29:32):
he was like a weird outsider dude and didn't have
anything going for him. He was there and oh gosh,
I can't even imagine. That's all we wish for to
get to that goal where he was. He just threw
it all away, which is so sad, but either way,
it's a very unfortunate trail of events that happened.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(30:19):
is a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
We all like to believe in our hearts that if
we come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd
get a Spidey sense. Did you have that feeling that
he was capable or off?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However,
I do remember this one incident that happened.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode three, In Class with Coburger,
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie
Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. On November thirteenth, twenty twenty two,
(00:54):
the murders of four young co eds at the University
of Idaho left senseless tragedy in its wake, from the
lives loss, to devastated family members and friends, to terrified
students left behind wondering what's next. But beyond that is
what transpired and accused murderer Brian Coeberger's orbit. We don't
(01:17):
know of Coberger's guilt or innocence. He is presumed innocent
unless otherwise determined in a court of law. What we
do know is that the accused was a criminology PhD
student and teacher's assistant at Washington State University, Pullman. We
also know that after the murders, up until he left
(01:37):
campus in mid December, Coberger attended classes in an effort
to gain a greater understanding of what happened during that time.
Stephanie Leidecker speaks with a former criminology student in Coburger's class, Cassie.
Cassie has never spoken out before, and we'rewithholding her last
name to protect her privacy. Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
There's been a lot of press about this case out there,
so really our goal is always like less about the
massacre itself and more about the human experience. Right, you
have such a unique perspective on that. So take me
back to day one, how you got to that particular
school and what you're studying and kind of even the
(02:24):
first day of class. Are you a criminology major?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Not anymore? No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Is that the event sometimes paths shift, right, So your
destiny has been obviously wildly affected by this particular crime,
so for obvious reasons. So yeah, just take me back
to your experience at school and kind of how you
made it to that class.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
All right, Well, I thought about criminology for a while
because it's just like it's so interesting to get into
you get to learn about literally the criminal behavior of
these criminals mind and like what works. And so I
was also considering psychology at the time, which is now
my major. I had that as a minor.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
But yeah, so the.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Second WAG I remember going, and he did introduce Brian
and his other TA. I forgot his name, and then
just kind of went into the details of the class.
And this class was pretty big. I would say like
three hundred students. It was a lecture hall, so very
very big class.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Just for clarity, Brian Coberger, the accused, he was the
teacher's assistant, right, we always call it a TA, but
that's short for teacher's assistant, right.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, so he was the teacher's assistant, their little helper
while they're still in school, basically just to get the knowledge.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So to be a teacher's assistant, it's kind of like
a secondary teacher obviously, right, they're a current student. In
Brian's case, he was getting his PhD and was also
working as a teacher's assistant in this particular criminology class,
which makes sense. They with grading and do they participate
(04:03):
in class. They do.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Usually it's when a teacher notices a kid doing up
in a booth, so kind of like just doing all
their work, just really like teaching others. That's just kind
of like how they pick out the tas just who
stands out to them.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So, so Brian was probably a pretty exemplary student in
order to even have that kind of a prestigious place.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Definitely, definitely, yeah, I think so he definitely had had
some knowledge to get in there, and our professor was
a very tough dude, so he it had to take
a lot for him to see something.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
In a statement, Washington University's vice president of Marketing and
Communication says that quote, mister Cobacker receives an appointment as
a teaching assistant at Washington State University during the fall
twenty twenty two semester. It is typical for students to
receive a teaching assistantship or similar appointment as part of
their PhD pro Wheeler explained here again, Cassie and Stephanie,
(05:09):
what was.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
The class about?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We covered literally how to get away with murder? Like
we covered pretty good basis because our professor at the time,
he was a very like knowledgeable man like he worked
with judges and he was a lawyer for years and
he worked with a lot of authority. So he wanted
to teach it how he learned, which was case studies,
(05:31):
like actually living it. So we went into a lot
of detail about criminal behavior, the behavior why criminals do
the thing. But this was more about cases. We would
look over like a lot of cases and things like that,
and we would go over the law, so a lot
of just criminal justice things, a lot of lawyer and
(05:52):
judge work.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Is there a part of you because I'm still on
the fence of I really want to believe that Ryan
Colberger is innocent. He claims his innocence. I want to
believe that because I like to believe that a human
being couldn't pull that off. But again, I don't know
him the way you do. Is there a part of
you that thinks maybe he is innocent? There is?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah. I've had like a lot of people reach out
to me just kind of like bashing him, like a
lot of just like newspapers and stuff like that, kind
of just like oh like trying to get like every
little scoop out of me to make him out to
be a bad guy, but in reality, like, this is
someone's life that we're talking about, and it's like his
reality as well, So it's there's a lot to take
(06:35):
into like consideration there, like why would you want someone
to go through all that and do all that and
to think that they would, you know, be capable of
something like that. Like it just blows my mind how
people are thinking about.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
This case in retrospects. What did he seem?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Like? I remember walking in Actually he was pretty noticeable,
believe it or not. But I walked in, saw him,
and he just didn't say anything. For weeks, he just
like stood there fiddling with his cup, and you this
class was like an hour and a half long, sometimes
up to two hours, Like it just depended. It was
a very long class for him to just be standing
(07:13):
up in the front of everyone. So when I was
bored in the class, I would honestly just watch him
because I had nothing to do.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I already like looked at.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
The notes and stuff, and so I would just like,
there's nothing else to watch.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And did that seem weird to have somebody just standing
there for an hour and a half? Is that normal
or is that odd? Behavior?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
With my other tas are definitely like on their laptop,
and sometimes you would see him like go on here
and there, but never for like more than like ten minutes,
I would say, Or he would just like sit down
in front of the class, or sometimes he wouldn't even
be there, just be the professor. But compared to our
other ta, he would be on his laptop, our teacher
would be asking him to go do ta things like hey,
(07:56):
can you pull up this lecture and stuff like that.
I just never saw any of that from Ryan.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Was he just also observing the class or did it
seem like he was just staring off into.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Space, off to space? Honestly? He would look up a
couple of times, honestly, just like in his own little world.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And did he seem like he was interested in the
content or like you know how somebody you could see
them and they look like they already know the information,
so they're kind of just nodding along. Or was he
kind of checked out?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I would say both most of the time, when like
he just he looked like me in that situation, like
he was just like sometimes nodding here and there. I
remember the professor trying to get his attention a couple
of times and take him a couple of times, like
snap into it.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So here you are, you're in your criminology class. You're
just observing three hundred ish people around you, and yeah,
you just sort of are looking at the people in
front of you. So in this case, it's the professor
into additional teacher assistants. He's one of them. And did
Brian Coburger and the other teacher assistant have any kind
(09:05):
of a rapport?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
No? I think I saw them together in the class
maybe one time, but other than that they were either
switching off or there was no tea at all.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll lead back in
a moment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
How would you describe him physically?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
He had a very clean look, very always shaven, very
like hair done. He was always wearing like sweaters and
jeans and looked nice. He was tall, white, dark hair,
very skinny, slim, slim fit. He just always seemed like
he was just there, not interacting or anything, just there.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
He had said that he seemed noticeable at first, was noticeable,
the fact that he was so quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I guess so I would. I just wasn't what I
was expecting when I first walked in the class. It
was a lot to take in all the ones. I
feel like we're getting a lot of information, and half
the time my brain would just check out and just
automatic eyes to him because he was the only other
person down there. Did he have any friends, Uh, not
that I saw. I mean, he was a very closed
(10:21):
off ta someta's like to share about their life and
give us a whole PowerPoint stuff and he never saw
that one from him, So I don't know much about
his personal life, but very kept to himself. Anytime I
saw him on campus or in class or office hours.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Did you have office hours with him?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yes, it would be with a couple kids. I only
went twice. Both times were unhelpful, so I left. It's
basically just like a time to ask him questions, to
ask him about work, to do work with him, to
need help on case studies, just anything like that, or
even studying for like a next exam or quiz. Those
(11:01):
are what office I was just supposed to be for.
But most of the time there's just a bunch of
kids kind of either doing group work together or just
a quiet place like study or wherever, and he would
just be like on his lap, up close off like
to himself.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Did he ever ask any personal questions to you.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No. No. I remember like trying to have a conversation
one time because I need help with one of the assignments,
and it was just kind of like, well, did you
review the work? And I'm like, yes, I reviewed the
work and so kind of gave my attitude back, but
it was yeah, I don't know. After that time, I
(11:39):
think I just didn't end up going.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So everybody wants to know the same thing, right. We
all like to believe in our hearts that if we
come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd get
a spidy sense or people always talk about I had
a sixth sense, So you know, kind of part of
even why it's so important to talk about this stuff is,
I'm so curious, did you have that feeling that he
(12:03):
was capable or off people have called him in the
press very creepy in retrospect, or did he just seem
like an ordinary guy?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However,
I do remember this one incident that happened when I
went into class. And usually you sit next to like
a different person every day. It's not like everyone's like, buddy, buddies,
So sit down, and the dude next to me, like
straight off the bat when Brian came in, was like, oh,
(12:40):
doesn't he give you like weird vibes? And I was like,
and that's like one comment that since now I'm like,
oh my gosh, Like how did I get He said
something about his eyes. It was like in the eyes
and now that I'm looking at him, and I'm like, yeah,
I guess that makes sense, but me personally.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, So like in the days leading up, so I
would imagine it's just business as usual. Right Thanksgiving break
is on the horizon. You guys are taking finals probably
or at least preparing for finals. Did anything seem out
of the ordinary in the days leading up to the
murders in terms of your experience with Brian.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I would say that before we even like heard, so
there was like a time period of right when finals
were happening and like right after and it was straight
a's a lot of really good grades and good comments
from Brian himself. But before that it was not so good,
(13:39):
very harsh grading, very not great. But and I talked
to so many of my classmates and then like, did
you notice your grades going up? And he would go
in detail on my work and like all my other
classmates work about how good it was. But you can
tell like the difference from before that it was like no,
like UNI fixes your grand you know, all that little
(14:01):
nitty picky stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Cassie's experience with Coburger is not unique. It's been reported
that former students have said he quote seemed preoccupied after
the slayings and became an easier grater. But Coburger's change
in affect wasn't the only notable thing. Here's more from Cassie.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
We also got a lot of complaints. I personally didn't
see a problem in it, but a lot of the
female writers and all that, because we do a lot
of case studies and we'd have to make reports on them.
A lot of people just thought he was very sexist
as a TA, especially in like one on ones apparently
like he showed just a lot of anger towards them
(14:47):
in a way which I'd never experienced that, So I
don't know, that's just what I got from my other classmates.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I had heard reports of that as well. Like you know,
there was a lot written about the fact that he
did these posts to prisoners behind bars or people to
who have committed crimes, like he almost did this poll
to see what their personality traits were like, or you know,
when they knew it was time to kill or sort
(15:15):
of it seemed as though he was profiling murderers right
to sort of better understand how their brain worked. And
then the day this hideous day happens. Tell me about
that day.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Honestly, it was just another day because when we all
heard about it, you were very we were very heartbroken,
but we didn't hear from the school or anything. We
just heard from like news. We didn't even know, like
it didn't even click that it was in Idaho at
u of I, and so like maybe the next week,
like is when it like really hit me in my
(15:50):
roommate and anyone close to me really like it just
didn't register. And then when everything started catching up over
breaking stuff is when it really just hit me in
all like, oh my gosh, like this is pretty close.
And then when I really started to realize is when
I would get calls from out of state family and
they'd be like, you know, you got to get home,
(16:11):
like it's almost break, like weren't you there early and
all that stuff, and my mom and my dad, my siblings,
just constant calls about, you know, get my ass home,
because it's getting a little scary, especially when they hadn't
like caught him and all that.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
During that time there was a national man hunt. It
must be a very scary feeling to know that there
is a killer at large, frankly targeting beautiful girls like
yourself in the same exact age group.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It was pretty scary because everyone at WSU was wondering,
what are we supposed to do because you and I
had already set a curfew and they took, you know, precautions,
and they didn't they closed like class for a couple
of days or something like that. You know, they took
their precautions, but WSU was like, no, they send out
an email. They were like, this has nothing to do
(17:02):
with us. We you know, they were like, we send
our love to the families. You know, they expressed that
pretty well. But they were also like, this is our business.
We will continue class. We will not have a man
you know, curfew. And then to think that it was
like under their own roof is like, oh, like, are
you kidding? And for the people like myself and the
(17:26):
couple other hundred kids who stayed when everyone else left
when they found out there was a murder on the loose.
That's terrifying. Like he was like probably on campus, you know,
doing his thing until he left for his break, and
the fact that he was in class and still replying
to our campus notifications, and I would get like I
(17:48):
remember looking at all the emails that he sent me
after it all happened, and a couple of weeks later,
they were just gone, and I was like, oh my god, what.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Does that mean? They were gone, like they got moved.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, so any canvas notifications I had from him any
because I literally remember like looking through all of them
and I was like just you know, kind of like
observing all them and seeing if I noticed anything. And
I had all of his little edits and stuff then
and then I went back one day to look at them,
and Camus had removed all them. It was just very
(18:24):
in detail, good notes about my work after everything happened,
very like it wasn't short and sweet.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
So this man potentially murdered four people and then he
went back to class and then he still continued to
grade papers and maybe did it in a lighter, happier way. Yes, Yeah,
So like what do you make of that? Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think he was definitely trying to if it was him,
could possibly like not be him. But I think if
it was he was trying to cover it up, you know,
in a way obviously. And that's like the first thing
you do after it all goes down. You kind of
want to act like nothing happened, maybe even make yourself
seem a little bit better, maybe more better guy then
(19:20):
some of your classmates might describe you. You know, you
don't want to hear about how you might be a
sexist the when you just kill like three girls, like
that's not you want to sere completely opposite of that.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
There were so.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Many things that he did that just didn't make sense.
If you were getting your PhD in criminology or criminal
justice or whatever, why would you go the route of
revisiting the place so many times and not checking your
phone being that's one of the first things we learned
in class everything how you get caught, and so he
(19:54):
already had this down. So it just it doesn't really
make sense why he would do so many things to
jeopardize people catching them.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
We were just reviewing this yesterday, so it sounds like
he was pinged, just to bring anybody up to speed.
So his cell phone pinged about fifteen times in and
around the area leading up to the murders and then after.
But I can't agree with you more. It doesn't totally
add up. That's so interesting to me that you really
did study that.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Tell me everything you can remember about the days after.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
The days after. Physically, it was his eyes for me,
they were very sunken and very black. It was like
he hadn't sleeped in like days, maybe weeks. That's just
what the appearance look like. But I was never one
to judge. I was like, okay, long night, we have
finals coming up. It's okay, but yeah, that's one of
the main things. And I guess a lot of unshavenness
(21:07):
and a little messier and then right after you could
tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Can you describe what it was like to find out
that Brian Coberger, your teacher's assistant, had been arrested and
accused of the murders.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. So I was in my dorm in the Olympia
dorm at WSU with my roommate, and I remember we
were looking at a case because it came out. She's like, oh,
I'm going to look at it. I was like, okay, yeah,
just tell me. I was cleaning or whatever, and she
was like, holy shit, Cassie, like it says criminology. And
(21:45):
I was like, no way, and she was like, you
have to go on campus right now. I was like,
why are you freaking out? Like she wouldn't really tell
me at first, and then she was like, who's your TA?
So I told her and then she was like there's
no way you're not to believe this, and so we
both started freaking out. And yeah, that was the moment.
And then she was kind of like, I need to
(22:06):
get the hell out of here. So she dipped a
little early for Thanksgiving break and yeah, I still to
save the extra week. So I was just kind of
like sitting with that information, and I remember not wanting
to go out because even before I remember my roommate
not letting me go out, like anytime I'd be like hey,
like like there's a party going out, No you're staying.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know, there's a.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Murderer out there, very hard lecture about not going out
and none of that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But it was just crazy when he went to class.
Was he participating in any of the conversations about the murders.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
No, but we did discuss it in class. We did
have Remember I Phil was from the school of the class,
but a lot of notifications I got from campus, you know,
like discussing the murderers, like kind of just like, hey,
like everyone needs to stay focused, but this is a
very troubled time, you know whatever, just giving a reminder
to all the classmates, like stay focused. But we did
(23:03):
talk about the case, and we even like kind of
went in details of everything that went down. I remember
a lot of people asking questions about it, so like
raising their hands and stuff, and there was a lot
so going around the room, and our professor was just
there answering the questions. And I don't remember seeing Brian
in class when we did talk about it. I remember
(23:24):
hearing that he was, but I didn't really go to class.
After everything happened, it kind of took me on a
kind of hit me a little bit where I was like,
this is getting a little too real. So I kind
of stepped back from criminology and all that.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You changed your major, huh, so, like criminology is not
your thing anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I will always have a special place in my heart
for chriminology, but I don't think it's my time or
you know, when everything happened, it just got so real
and I was like, this might not be for me
because I don't know. I was just thinking too psychic
psychologically into it, and so I changed my major to
my minor, which was psychology, hoping that leads to a
(24:07):
better future with that.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
It's very traumatic and I'm super sorry that you had
to even experience anything so close to something so disgusting.
Did you have any knowledge or did you know any
of the victims?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
No, I did not know a lot of people from
u OF I I knew a couple of people who
had friends who know, you know, like friend of a friend,
and so even then it affected them in such a
way you know, I could only imagine. And we did
have a couple like memorial stuff like a candle it
thing and a little other one to show work of
(24:44):
bys and place like flowers and pictures of them and
stuff like at the u OFI statue the plaque that
they have, So.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, it's pretty moving. Like even
as I talk to you, I feel for your mom
and dad because I would want you out of there.
It was it seemed means dangerous. You know, there's a
part of us that all think, oh my god, it
could be you, right, like he could have been staring
at you as a teacher's assistant and targeted you. What
do you make of it? So now, like over a
year now behind you, what is your take on it?
(25:15):
Is it possible? Like it is it track for you?
Is it impossible that he could have pulled this off?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
There is a very very clear like possibility that he
could have done this. And when you bring up alibi,
that's very like it just almost makes sense to cover
up like the missing pieces, Like if only there was
an alibi, it would all make sense. But there isn't,
at least from like what we all know. So it's
(25:43):
all still so confusing to say, like if you did
it or if you didn't. But there are just so
many things that he did after like the cell phone
paying and all that that just wouldn't make sense if
he didn't do it. So I don't know. I'm kinda
I'm leaning towards did it, but I also hold a
lot of sympathy still, I'm a very empathetic person, so
(26:05):
not to say, like what he did wasn't fucked up,
but if he didn't do it, like I still like
I'm still holding that, you know. And there was just
so much that went into it. It was all just
so much. I hope like one day it just all
gets figured out and can finally close the case.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And the school. Now, Like if everything sort of settles down,
do people still talk about it? Is it not a
big topic of conversation anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, when this like hit, it was like huge, biggest
thing that happened. But last year at WQU was a
very crazy year. It was a very sad year for Pulman,
and then this kind of hit and everyone it was
like a whole Pullman's name was changed to this is
where it happened, and so it was just traumatizing for
the entire school and even like myself and a lot
(26:55):
of people I knew, Like I even met people at
the Vancouver campus because I'm at the Vancouver campus now
who moved because of the situation. And I talked to
like so many people at my campus now who just
were like in my class sitting there like in front
of me now who I never met, like explaining to
me how hard it was for them, so where they
(27:16):
had to move because they couldn't like even be in
the same tiny little town anymore, Like it didn't feel
the same, which is just so sad to hear about.
And yeah, it's just very sad year for maybe a supplement.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
One last thing. I just got like covered in chills.
You bring up such a big point that I think
we should probably dive deeper in. He was only there
for a year, and you know, the victims have this,
you know, kind of iconically fun looking life. Is it
possible that he was just this outsider kind of wishing
to have it, or became obsessed with one of them
(27:54):
and just lost his mind one night, or was just
just a perfect storm that was brewing and they were
just the unfortunate targets, And it could have been anyone.
It's so hard to know.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
They both could be like such possible answers, crazy to
think about. Yeah, the party life at both schools were
both pretty big. If you weren't in the party life,
it was I can definitely seem more of an outsider
like standpoint. But then again, like everyone was so accepting.
If you would just walk up to any house, you'd
be in a party, Like no one would like kick
(28:31):
you out or anyth unless you're being weird, which could
be the case. But you know, very accepting schools, both
of them, very kind hearts. Everyone had a smile on
their face, and even when like tough times like this,
even we still like would have smiles on our faces.
We'd take a break from schools and like as a community,
not even like the school policy, like we would all
(28:51):
come together and be like we're we're gonna go to
a memorial instead, or we're going to hold this event
for them. So yeah, it was a very good community
to have while everything else was kind of fallen down
around us.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Just in closing, is there anything that we don't have
right that, just based on your experience just in general,
that people just have wrong.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Before the situation happened, they kind of make him seem
to be like this creep who didn't have anything for
him going. But he was like almost done with his life.
He was at his goal. He had so much of
a future ahead of him, and to say that he
didn't it is just straight out lies. It's not that
(29:32):
he was like a weird outsider dude and didn't have
anything going for him. He was there and oh gosh,
I can't even imagine. That's all we wish for to
get to that goal where he was. He just threw
it all away, which is so sad, but either way,
it's a very unfortunate trail of events that happened.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(30:19):
is a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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