August 21, 2024 • 32 mins
In the wake of tragedy, countless victims are left behind.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
My world stopped that day. I was just stuck in
this cycle of, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next,
What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to
themselves what the killer didn't.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Do to them.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I
one that they took. There's so much that goes with
surviving something like this.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios
and iHeart Radio, Season two, episode eleven, Those Left Behind.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie
Leidecker and Gabriel Castillo. At the center of the horrific
(00:58):
murders that took place on November thirtie teenth, twenty twenty two, are,
of course the victims, and it's of the utmost importance,
not just from a reporting standpoint, but from a human
perspective to keep their memories alive.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
If you knew Ethan, he was never angry about anything,
You would never get upset. Everybody loved him, and I
feel so lucky so I've shared so many great memories
with him.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Sanna was the funniest person I knew and made laugh
every time I spent time with her.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
She was my baby sister, but she was so much
wiser and experienced so much more in life than I
ever have. Maddie was the best, spreading love to all
those that were close to her. Every time I talked
to her on the phone, she would end the conversation with,
I Love you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Kitty was a rental child out of five.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
She was always competitive.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
She was smack dad met.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Also, there was enough never a day that she didn't
want to race her brother because she was determined that
girls were faster than boys.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Not only were their families devastated, but so too were
their friends and the community at large. For those left behind,
the healing may have only begun, and it may for
some last a lifetime's try and get some understanding of
the impact left in the wake of the murders. Stephanie
(02:35):
and I have reached out to a psychiatrist specializing in
survivor's guilt, as well as speaking with Whitney Galloway, a
brave young woman who has been through and is still
healing from survivor's guilt. Stephanie and I had the honor
of meeting Whitney while working on a documentary on the
Pike Khanni murders, which is covered in detail in our
other podcast, The piked In Massacre. Here's Whitney then Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, for me, I mean, it did take me a
long time to process everything, get through it. Yeah, I
was eighteen at the time, So at eighteen, you don't
really expect to have to deal with the emotions, the
after effects, the really the I mean, it's basically PTSD
of what you get from something like that to happen.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
You and I met with Courtney a couple of years ago. Now,
Courtney and I I think were in town for Wagner's
trial and had been reaching out to you, And I
can still picture you sitting on that wooden swing, just
sort of like, who are these two people coming up
to my house right now? Is this safe? For anyone
who's not familiar with the Pike County murders and the
(03:46):
massacre in Pie County. They lost their lives really tragically
at the hands of another family of four. Jake Wagner,
who is the youngest son of this foursome, was a
mother father into some He's the youngest Whitney knew and
had a lot of contacts with in the month if
(04:06):
not longer, leading up to the murders, and her very
best friends Hannah Gilly had lost her life that night,
really tragically, and you know, you knew the whole family,
you knew all of the victims. But that really fishtails
into why we're talking right now. You know, massacres are
not in common, thank god. But then there's Idaho where
(04:28):
also four young adults lost their lives. Two of the
surviving victims were in the home at the time of
the murders, and families have been ripped apart and devastated.
So we thought it was like a nice way to
take a breath and talk to you a little bit
about that impact and what that's like and what your
(04:49):
journey has been like.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I mean still to this day, it's been eight years
since they were taken from us, and I still struggle.
I don't want to say you can't get over it,
because I feel like it's not something you can get over,
but you learn to live with it.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Here's doctor Carol Lieberman, a board certified psychiatrist known as
America Psychiatrist as well as the Terrorist Therapist. This comes
into play because doctor Carroll has dedicated much of her
career in the last twenty three years helping people cope
with the aftermath of nine to eleven. I began our
conversation simply asking for the definition of the term survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Survivor's guilt is generally used to mean someone who was
in a very traumatic situation and who survived it when
other people didn't, and who is left with a feeling
like they didn't deserve to survive. They should have done
more to save the other people. They feel that they
(05:56):
should have done more, or something that they did do
made it worse for the people, you know, kill the
other people, helped to kill the other people. They're punishing themselves.
They feel they deserve to be punished because they survive
this horrible thing, and so they are basically continuing the
trauma by continuing to punish themselves. They didn't get killed
(06:18):
or injured, perhaps, but they deserve to and therefore I'm
going to ruin my life. And that's not conscious, you know,
they don't say that to themselves necessarily consciously, but they
become stuck in the trauma. They become because they feel
they should have died, they don't want to or can't
(06:41):
proceed with their life. It's like they did die, and
so it can be totally totally debilitating. It's not the
same thing as PTSD, although it's kind of mentioned in
the DSM the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as being sort
of related to PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. But so
(07:02):
it can show with symptoms of anxiety depression PTSD different
kinds of psychological symptoms, but where they're the underlying psychological
phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the
killer didn't do to them.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Here again, Whitney talking about the impact the April anniversary
of the murders have on her. At the time of
the recording, the anniversary was upcoming.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
It's almost like your body holds that trauma from that day.
Your body will hold it, your body will always remember it,
even though say it's like twenty five years down the road.
It's like this month, I'm getting headache, I'm anxious more.
I talk to a therapist. I've been in therapy for
a year now because I didn't realize what I was
(07:55):
doing because of the murders. But she explained it to me, said,
you know, your body holds in that trauma and it
remembers trauma, and so where April was such a big
month to me, it made sense. You know, I'm anxious more.
I'm having nightmares. I wake up in the middle of
the night. I feel like I won't remember the day
(08:15):
till it's the day, but my body won't let me
forget it.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
I guess that's really true. I think that would probably
apply to any real loss. Suddenly it's the eight year anniversary.
I know that's been just a few days. It's been
heavy on our hearts as well, and all of them,
all of the victims family is in Pie County in general.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I asked doctor Carroll if it's common for people to
experience exacerbated symptoms around anniversaries.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, that can happen. You know, anniversary reactions are really interesting.
A lot of times people aren't aware that such and
such a date is coming up, but then when the
date happens, all of a sudden, you know, either they're
filling things in their body, they can't get out of
bed or something like that, you know, because they're so depressed,
or they do something that is totally out of character
(09:05):
because part of their mind does realize that it is
this anniversary.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
A good example, of course, is nine to eleven. Every year,
when the anniversary happens, it triggers memories. And even if again,
even if the people aren't necessarily thinking, right, people are oh, well,
September eleventh, when the day comes, I mean, that's a trigger,
of course, But even things like planes flying overhead making
(09:30):
a loud noise, or what they were eating, for example,
people who were eating a certain thing for breakfast that day,
and then whenever they have that again, it reminds them
of that morning when they were eating it, and then
nine to eleven happened, or they don't have it again
on purpose.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Stephanie and Whitney continue their conversation about grief and its
cyclical nature. Here again Stephanie, followed by Whitney.
Speaker 6 (09:59):
It creeps up on you right suddenly you think you
have it all tucked away, and then that's I guess
the thing about grief, it's a whole. It's a whole
that maybe doesn't have to be filled.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, and that doesn't ever get filled, but you find
a way to work around it, I guess. Yeah. For me,
like I went so many years without any help out
without talking to anybody, Like, no one could really relate
to what I mean, besides the family obviously, But you
don't want to go and keep bringing it up to
them because that's such it's a traumatic thing. So trying
(10:32):
to find a friend or a friend that would even
remotely understand what it was like is hard, especially at
such a young age. It just it's it was hard.
But therapy has helped me tremendously. I know some people
just don't.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Don't believe in it, right, they don't know some people
like are resistant to therapy. And we're not condoning it,
we're prescribing it one way or the other. I too,
believe in it. We don't want to burden people with
your grief. You don't want to theme week by, you know,
being on a loop and feeling like you just have
loss that you can't get out of the way.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Like it consumes your whole life. I got to the
point where it felt like my whole this was my
whole life. I felt like my my world stopped that
day and I was just stuck in this cycle of
Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next, What's going to
happen next? Or could this happen to me? Is this
gonna happen to me? Who can I trust? Who can
I not trust? Or my door's locked or my windows locked?
(11:31):
Am I safe? I still have that. I'm learning to
start to trust people. It takes a long time, a
very long time, and not for me at least, it
took a long time. I feel like if I had
somebody else that I could relate to with what was
going on, it would probably help me a lot more
and a lot sooner.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
And I think You're not alone in that. I think
that kind of says two things. One granted, both of
these cases, both in Idaho and in Pike, are extreme. Right.
We have heard, like we heard a statistic that the
likelihood of you being in a massacre of this level
or losing someone you love in a manner like this
(12:13):
is as common as being killed by a vending machine
falling on you. It's that rare, right, So, on the
one hand, there's comfort in that these are extreme cases.
But for someone like you, or for any of the
students in Idaho or family members, you know, you realize,
like the flame was really close, and it's hard to
(12:36):
reacclimate to the world that you want to be safe
when you realize, huh, the Boogeyman was really close or
with somebody that I knew.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, or they say like, you know, monsters are not real,
but they actually, you know they are. They really are.
For me, when I talk about it now, I don't
feel as a shame like I don't feel like I'm
being a burden to anybody to talk about it, because
it did happen to me, and I did have to
work through it, and I can talk about it, and
(13:06):
I'm allowed to talk about it. It was such a
significant thing in my life, and it was such a
traumatic thing in my life that I'm allowed to feel
a certain way. I'm allowed to be sad one day,
I'm allowed to celebrate their life when day. No one
can tell you you're being too much over something like that.
(13:28):
No one can tell you how to feel about it.
No one can tell you, oh, you've been sad long enough,
We're done. I'm at the point now where instead of grieving,
I mean, I'm still grieving, but I want to remember
the good things. I want to remember. You know, I
do have these amazing people in my life. I do
have pictures to look back on, and I'm allowed to
(13:51):
watch videos and laugh about in things that we joked
around about. I'm allowed to say I miss her or
yeah it's a lot to some people, but the right people,
it won't be a lot to talk about.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
And I think that makes you such an amazing source.
You know, I know one thing for sure that you
do not heal alone. Nobody heals alone. And you don't
have to be connected to a massacre to understand loss
and to have trauma comes in so many shapes and
sizes and in so many different ways. And sometimes people
feel like my pain wouldn't nearly be as big as
(14:29):
their pain. You even thought that for a second. Well,
I'm not the family, so I shouldn't be able to
feel this much pain. Which is you know, grief and
love are so wildly connected, and they're so incredibly closely tied,
and if you stuff that stuff down, it can really
turn on you. It turns on your body, It turns
on your decision making. We start making decisions from a
(14:51):
place of loss as opposed to a place of gain.
Loss is loss. You might have just a bigger well
to pull from. So many people listening are sad so
they don't have that best friend like you had in Hannah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. I asked doctor Carroll about Whitney's complicated feelings
of being unable to feel her own grief because she
felt it was so much worse for the victims and
their families.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
A part of survivor's guilt is not feeling that you
deserve any treatment, therapy, or any sympathy for what you
did experience as part of the trauma, and so feeling
like experiencing grief or experiencing some of the things that
(15:51):
perhaps the families of the people who were killed or
so on. I feel it feels self indulgent to experience
grief and to any into you know, when people would say, oh,
that must be so hard for you to lose your
friend and blah blah blah. And of course in her case,
actually you said she was friends with the people who
did this. What makes Whitney's case particularly complicated is that
(16:16):
she feels guilty that she didn't stop it because she
knew the people who did it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
She has said, why didn't I stop it? Of course,
no way to imagine this would have happened, But yes,
you're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You know, so it's extra extra guilt. It's not just
that she survived, you know, but she blames herself. It's
just self blame. I mean, this kind of thing could
cause not only things like depression, anxiety and all of that,
but actual physical you know. I hate to say it,
but I mean like things like cancer, things like other
(16:55):
kinds of diseases or disorders. If you keep showering yourself
with all of this guilt and blame and you know,
year upon year, that is very, very unhealthy. It could
cause all kinds of systems in your body to go bunkers.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
As a reminder, we met Whitney while working on the
Pike County documentary.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Do you feel like this by talking even just through
the process of being in a documentary and sort of
talking it out, did that shift things a little bit
for you?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Well, I mean I was nervous at first to do
the documentary, but in a way it was kind of
healing for people to see not only did it affect yes,
it affected their family, and I could not imagine what
it would be for a family member, but as a
close friend, there's just it. It was healing for me
(17:48):
because people got to see it from my point of view.
People got to see how not only did the Wagners
did what they did to the Rodents and the Gillies,
but it was so many more people than what they
probably realize. I mean, like I said in the documentary,
they changed my life that day. Even today, I'm still
not going to be the same, which it would expect
(18:10):
someone to be the same right after something like that,
but no, it was actually kind of healing to be
able to voice what they did to not only the
family but to everybody else.
Speaker 6 (18:23):
I think that's the whole point of these things, right,
even this podcast, it's like sometimes people assume, oh, it's
just like to unpack a grizzly event, and truly that's
not the case. I think it's two part One, to prevent.
If you don't know that these types of things happen
in the world, it's really hard to avoid them or
identify red flags and things that are really easy to
do in retrospect in somebody else's retrospect. Even so it's
(18:47):
like a safety thing. And then also to keep the
victims alive. In the case of Idaho, not too similarly
to Pie County, that trial still lies ahead. The Idaho
trial looks like it probably will be set for next year.
That's a long time for the general public to lose
sight of the lives and the humans that were lost,
(19:08):
and it's important that we keep them alive because people
should be mad as hell.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, be mad, voice it, be mad. Don't sit and
think that they won. No one's won yet. No one
has won a single thing until that day. And that's
another thing, is that feeling if and when justice comes
is a feeling no one will ever understand that has
(19:34):
that they've not had to be through. You might cry,
you might scream, and if you feel you need to
do that, do it.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
In the Pikes in Ohio case, three of the four
accused murderers have been found or pled guilty. One member's
trial is still upcoming.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
When we got the partial justice that we have. I mean,
I was pregnant at the time, but if I could
have been out in my yard jumping around and pop models,
you know, I would have done it. But yeah, I
mean there's just so many emotions that come with that
part too. You have all this grief and then this
(20:12):
happens and it's like you're you just can't contain it.
It made me feel like we accomplished something it wasn't.
And no, it doesn't bring them back. That was one
hard feeling I had. It doesn't bring them back, but
they got the justice they deserved.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
What would you say? Would you have any words of
advice to anyone who's gone through this level of trauma
or some level of trauma, whether that's they're a victim
of a violent crime, or someone they love very deeply
is the victim of a violent crime, or in your
case too, you had it in both sides because you
knew the victim and the perpetrator. Well, that's also equally scary.
(20:53):
You know, you shared space with someone, you were texting
with someone in the days after the murderers who was like,
I have no idea. Hopefully they find the killer. Meanwhile,
you're the killer by your own admission. Do you have
any advice for anyone who's just kind of stuck in
their head and doesn't have anyone to speak to about
their feelings? How do you process?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I mean, you're not alone. When this happened with Hannah
and the Rodents, I felt alone and it took me
a while to realize I wasn't alone. Always reach out
reach out to anybody that you trust anyone that you're
comfortable with. Take your time. It's all about your time.
(21:36):
Like it's all about time. Do not think you're alone.
You can always reach out, even if it's me. You know,
anyone could ever reach out, because I've been in it.
I don't care if it would be three in the morning,
like please call you know. I needed that person. And
so instead of moping around thinking, oh, I really wish
(21:58):
I had somebody, I I want to be that person
for somebody. So there's anything. That's all I can really
think to say is just you're not alone.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
If you've now enrolled in school to become a social
worker and a victim's advocate. And we all like to
believe that in some part it is because you shared
so much on the case that you know, people really
were touched in a way that can't quite be described,
myself included. And I think we all get to heal
(22:32):
with you. And I think now you know that's obviously
a calling for you. If people want to connect with you,
you can send us any emails or any information via
the KT Studio's website and we'll make sure that it
gets to you. And obviously, now that you've gone to school.
(22:55):
You're like, legitimately becoming the exact thing that you is
pretty magical stuff. And I can't help but think that
that's Hannah Gilly at play as your guiding light a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Here again, Stephanie, you were dead on about survivor's guilt,
and that's something that we're kind of unpacking a little
bit in this There were two surviving roommates at the
time of the Idaho massacre, and it's really a big
topic that gets me a bit fired up because I've
read a lot of chatter online and there's been a
(23:41):
lot on TikTok and in various various online silly sources
that kind of give the roommates a lot of slack.
They're like, well, why didn't the roommates call nine one
to one and why did it take nine hours to
finally get authorities there? And while I understand that theoretically,
it really lack the level of empathy because until you
(24:02):
know what happened, and really nobody does at this point.
That night, one of the roommates allegedly saw the accused
Brian Colberger, going down the hallway, and she identified him
to have bushy eyebrows. At that moment, he would have
been covered in complete blood and likely would have just
(24:23):
murdered four people. You don't expect there to be a
killer in the hallway, right, You don't think, oh, this
must to be a mass murderer.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
We don't know. We don't know what it's like to
be in that situation, and we certainly shouldn't throw stones
at two people who have really survived something so horrible
and likely or really suffering. This is an assumption. I
don't know them, but survivor's guilt is what comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
You don't know how fast that passing by was in
our heads at slow mo, Oh, here's this guy walking by.
She's looking in your head when you don't know the
actual setup. You weren't there in my head. It's like
a slow motion picture, like you know, like a movie.
But how fast did they go by each other? You know,
how dark was it in the hallway? How do you
(25:16):
know what was on them? I mean, yeah, they're probably
drenched in blood, but that's not something you see on
a regular basis, So you're not going to look for that.
You're not going to notice it probably, especially if it
was dark, being college students, who knows who would be
coming in and out. There's so many different scenarios in
that shock does crazy things to you and now knowing
(25:38):
what they know. I couldn't imagine being that person who
now knowing and feeling like you didn't do something even
though you didn't know what was going on. It's not
your fault, it's not anyone's fault besides the person who
did it. So don't feel that guilt that is that
(25:59):
survivor guilt is I could have done something, I should
have done something, and I didn't, but I also didn't
know what was going on, and how could you?
Speaker 6 (26:09):
How could you? Like, the brain is not committed to
understanding something so violent, it's so outside our realm that
that's not what you probably connect. That got very easily.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And you're at home, you think you're safe.
Speaker 6 (26:21):
You think you're safe. Yeah, that's very true. And for
people to please show some empathy, some empathy that whoever
has survived this, you know that's a long journey ahead,
and you have this guilt that you know, why them
not me? Or how does my life go on? It's
such a mind screw.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Or they should be here. Why am I here but
not them? Why wasn't I one that they took? You know,
it's there's so much that goes with surviving something like this.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
There's a lot, and our hearts go out to them
as well, and we kind of encourage people to to
do so as well. If anything, they just need healing
thoughts their way. Yeah, anything that you would say for
any of the college students or yeah, anybody who maybe
brushed paths. We interviewed very recently one of the accused
(27:16):
students because he was a teacher's assistant and she was
in his class in the days leading up to the
murders and the days after. If what he's been accused
of is true, and again he's claiming innocence, If what
is being said is accurate, then he went to class
the next day and was still participating. And that a
(27:36):
little bit makes me think of Jake Wagner.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You know, kind of hits home right now.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Hits home. Yeah, And I was curious if you had
something because again the accused now convicted, Jake Wagner and
the Pie County murders. You spoke with him and connected
with him right after the murders. I did.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I told him if he needed anything, and he told me,
you know, I just don't know how I'm gonna go on.
I don't know how I'm gonna tell my daughter that,
you know, her mom is Knellinger here. After finding out
about Jake and then talking to him, it's kind of
like a oh my goodness, you know, like, wow, you
played it so well. You played everybody. Not everyone is
(28:19):
like that. Not everyone would be able to do that.
So someone that's able to come in and act like
nothing is wrong, or to know what they did and
act like nothing is wrong, they are sick and twisted.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
Is there anything that you would like to say to
the victims' families or friends?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I mean, I'm sorry, you know, it's it's not easy
to go through. And you guys are not alone. Sorry,
a little emotional, but you're not alone, and don't ever
feel like you are. And I know there's gonna be
days that it's so hard, it's so hard to get up,
(29:00):
and it's so hard to go on, and it's gonna
be so hard to just to just live. I get it,
and I get that there are days that you want
to just go to where this person is and destroy
their life. But there is some good in this system.
There will. I hope and I pray that you guys
(29:23):
get the justice you guys need and deserve, even though
it doesn't bring them back. That justice is good and
it feels good. And my biggest thing is you're just
not alone, because for the longest time I felt alone
and it took me a long time to realize I wasn't.
So even though it's been eight years that day it's
(29:44):
still so fresh to me. So I just I know
how you guys feel. I've been there, still working on
it to get better, even though it doesn't seem like
it and it seems like, gosh, this is never gonna
I'll never be the same. You might not, and that
is okay, but you will. You will find a whole
(30:08):
new you from this.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Can you tell me one quick story about Hannah Gilly
but just in her honor? Is there anything that immediately
comes to mind?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's a song, there's a country song that says her
long blonde hair, and that she loved that song because
it was long blonde. How every time I hear that,
I think of her, And sometimes I'll I'll be listening
to a station that doesn't play country music. But then
that song comes on, I'm like, ah Anna, I'm like,
(30:40):
I miss you too.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I love to see you smile, and I'm so stinking
proud of you. You are a real inspiration, you really are,
and I'm so excited to see what comes next for you.
So here's to like, you know, passing the baton on
and helping others. There's nobody better than you to do it.
And our hearts and prayers are with all of the
(31:04):
victims of the Idaho massacre and of course in Pike
County as well, and we send you all of our
love and then them thank you for taking the time.
Sorry to have you crying in your car right now, but.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Listen, I just know, I know it's how it feels.
It just makes me a little emotional because I don't
want anybody to feel that way, to feel like, Josh,
this is it, because I've been there, and it's not fun.
It's not a fun feeling, it's not a You guys
are not alone, trust me, You guys are not a loade.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
And you will smile again at some point.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yes, you will get your spark back, is what I
like to say. I'm starting to get my spark back.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leedeger,
Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Torois. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(32:12):
is a production of Katy's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
My world stopped that day. I was just stuck in
this cycle of, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next,
What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to
themselves what the killer didn't.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Do to them.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I
one that they took. There's so much that goes with
surviving something like this.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios
and iHeart Radio, Season two, episode eleven, Those Left Behind.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie
Leidecker and Gabriel Castillo. At the center of the horrific
(00:58):
murders that took place on November thirtie teenth, twenty twenty two, are,
of course the victims, and it's of the utmost importance,
not just from a reporting standpoint, but from a human
perspective to keep their memories alive.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
If you knew Ethan, he was never angry about anything,
You would never get upset. Everybody loved him, and I
feel so lucky so I've shared so many great memories
with him.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Sanna was the funniest person I knew and made laugh
every time I spent time with her.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
She was my baby sister, but she was so much
wiser and experienced so much more in life than I
ever have. Maddie was the best, spreading love to all
those that were close to her. Every time I talked
to her on the phone, she would end the conversation with,
I Love you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Kitty was a rental child out of five.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
She was always competitive.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
She was smack dad met.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Also, there was enough never a day that she didn't
want to race her brother because she was determined that
girls were faster than boys.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Not only were their families devastated, but so too were
their friends and the community at large. For those left behind,
the healing may have only begun, and it may for
some last a lifetime's try and get some understanding of
the impact left in the wake of the murders. Stephanie
(02:35):
and I have reached out to a psychiatrist specializing in
survivor's guilt, as well as speaking with Whitney Galloway, a
brave young woman who has been through and is still
healing from survivor's guilt. Stephanie and I had the honor
of meeting Whitney while working on a documentary on the
Pike Khanni murders, which is covered in detail in our
other podcast, The piked In Massacre. Here's Whitney then Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, for me, I mean, it did take me a
long time to process everything, get through it. Yeah, I
was eighteen at the time, So at eighteen, you don't
really expect to have to deal with the emotions, the
after effects, the really the I mean, it's basically PTSD
of what you get from something like that to happen.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
You and I met with Courtney a couple of years ago. Now,
Courtney and I I think were in town for Wagner's
trial and had been reaching out to you, And I
can still picture you sitting on that wooden swing, just
sort of like, who are these two people coming up
to my house right now? Is this safe? For anyone
who's not familiar with the Pike County murders and the
(03:46):
massacre in Pie County. They lost their lives really tragically
at the hands of another family of four. Jake Wagner,
who is the youngest son of this foursome, was a
mother father into some He's the youngest Whitney knew and
had a lot of contacts with in the month if
(04:06):
not longer, leading up to the murders, and her very
best friends Hannah Gilly had lost her life that night,
really tragically, and you know, you knew the whole family,
you knew all of the victims. But that really fishtails
into why we're talking right now. You know, massacres are
not in common, thank god. But then there's Idaho where
(04:28):
also four young adults lost their lives. Two of the
surviving victims were in the home at the time of
the murders, and families have been ripped apart and devastated.
So we thought it was like a nice way to
take a breath and talk to you a little bit
about that impact and what that's like and what your
(04:49):
journey has been like.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I mean still to this day, it's been eight years
since they were taken from us, and I still struggle.
I don't want to say you can't get over it,
because I feel like it's not something you can get over,
but you learn to live with it.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Here's doctor Carol Lieberman, a board certified psychiatrist known as
America Psychiatrist as well as the Terrorist Therapist. This comes
into play because doctor Carroll has dedicated much of her
career in the last twenty three years helping people cope
with the aftermath of nine to eleven. I began our
conversation simply asking for the definition of the term survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Survivor's guilt is generally used to mean someone who was
in a very traumatic situation and who survived it when
other people didn't, and who is left with a feeling
like they didn't deserve to survive. They should have done
more to save the other people. They feel that they
(05:56):
should have done more, or something that they did do
made it worse for the people, you know, kill the
other people, helped to kill the other people. They're punishing themselves.
They feel they deserve to be punished because they survive
this horrible thing, and so they are basically continuing the
trauma by continuing to punish themselves. They didn't get killed
(06:18):
or injured, perhaps, but they deserve to and therefore I'm
going to ruin my life. And that's not conscious, you know,
they don't say that to themselves necessarily consciously, but they
become stuck in the trauma. They become because they feel
they should have died, they don't want to or can't
(06:41):
proceed with their life. It's like they did die, and
so it can be totally totally debilitating. It's not the
same thing as PTSD, although it's kind of mentioned in
the DSM the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as being sort
of related to PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. But so
(07:02):
it can show with symptoms of anxiety depression PTSD different
kinds of psychological symptoms, but where they're the underlying psychological
phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the
killer didn't do to them.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Here again, Whitney talking about the impact the April anniversary
of the murders have on her. At the time of
the recording, the anniversary was upcoming.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
It's almost like your body holds that trauma from that day.
Your body will hold it, your body will always remember it,
even though say it's like twenty five years down the road.
It's like this month, I'm getting headache, I'm anxious more.
I talk to a therapist. I've been in therapy for
a year now because I didn't realize what I was
(07:55):
doing because of the murders. But she explained it to me, said,
you know, your body holds in that trauma and it
remembers trauma, and so where April was such a big
month to me, it made sense. You know, I'm anxious more.
I'm having nightmares. I wake up in the middle of
the night. I feel like I won't remember the day
(08:15):
till it's the day, but my body won't let me
forget it.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
I guess that's really true. I think that would probably
apply to any real loss. Suddenly it's the eight year anniversary.
I know that's been just a few days. It's been
heavy on our hearts as well, and all of them,
all of the victims family is in Pie County in general.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I asked doctor Carroll if it's common for people to
experience exacerbated symptoms around anniversaries.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, that can happen. You know, anniversary reactions are really interesting.
A lot of times people aren't aware that such and
such a date is coming up, but then when the
date happens, all of a sudden, you know, either they're
filling things in their body, they can't get out of
bed or something like that, you know, because they're so depressed,
or they do something that is totally out of character
(09:05):
because part of their mind does realize that it is
this anniversary.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
A good example, of course, is nine to eleven. Every year,
when the anniversary happens, it triggers memories. And even if again,
even if the people aren't necessarily thinking, right, people are oh, well,
September eleventh, when the day comes, I mean, that's a trigger,
of course, But even things like planes flying overhead making
(09:30):
a loud noise, or what they were eating, for example,
people who were eating a certain thing for breakfast that day,
and then whenever they have that again, it reminds them
of that morning when they were eating it, and then
nine to eleven happened, or they don't have it again
on purpose.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Stephanie and Whitney continue their conversation about grief and its
cyclical nature. Here again Stephanie, followed by Whitney.
Speaker 6 (09:59):
It creeps up on you right suddenly you think you
have it all tucked away, and then that's I guess
the thing about grief, it's a whole. It's a whole
that maybe doesn't have to be filled.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, and that doesn't ever get filled, but you find
a way to work around it, I guess. Yeah. For me,
like I went so many years without any help out
without talking to anybody, Like, no one could really relate
to what I mean, besides the family obviously, But you
don't want to go and keep bringing it up to
them because that's such it's a traumatic thing. So trying
(10:32):
to find a friend or a friend that would even
remotely understand what it was like is hard, especially at
such a young age. It just it's it was hard.
But therapy has helped me tremendously. I know some people
just don't.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Don't believe in it, right, they don't know some people
like are resistant to therapy. And we're not condoning it,
we're prescribing it one way or the other. I too,
believe in it. We don't want to burden people with
your grief. You don't want to theme week by, you know,
being on a loop and feeling like you just have
loss that you can't get out of the way.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Like it consumes your whole life. I got to the
point where it felt like my whole this was my
whole life. I felt like my my world stopped that
day and I was just stuck in this cycle of
Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next, What's going to
happen next? Or could this happen to me? Is this
gonna happen to me? Who can I trust? Who can
I not trust? Or my door's locked or my windows locked?
(11:31):
Am I safe? I still have that. I'm learning to
start to trust people. It takes a long time, a
very long time, and not for me at least, it
took a long time. I feel like if I had
somebody else that I could relate to with what was
going on, it would probably help me a lot more
and a lot sooner.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
And I think You're not alone in that. I think
that kind of says two things. One granted, both of
these cases, both in Idaho and in Pike, are extreme. Right.
We have heard, like we heard a statistic that the
likelihood of you being in a massacre of this level
or losing someone you love in a manner like this
(12:13):
is as common as being killed by a vending machine
falling on you. It's that rare, right, So, on the
one hand, there's comfort in that these are extreme cases.
But for someone like you, or for any of the
students in Idaho or family members, you know, you realize,
like the flame was really close, and it's hard to
(12:36):
reacclimate to the world that you want to be safe
when you realize, huh, the Boogeyman was really close or
with somebody that I knew.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, or they say like, you know, monsters are not real,
but they actually, you know they are. They really are.
For me, when I talk about it now, I don't
feel as a shame like I don't feel like I'm
being a burden to anybody to talk about it, because
it did happen to me, and I did have to
work through it, and I can talk about it, and
(13:06):
I'm allowed to talk about it. It was such a
significant thing in my life, and it was such a
traumatic thing in my life that I'm allowed to feel
a certain way. I'm allowed to be sad one day,
I'm allowed to celebrate their life when day. No one
can tell you you're being too much over something like that.
(13:28):
No one can tell you how to feel about it.
No one can tell you, oh, you've been sad long enough,
We're done. I'm at the point now where instead of grieving,
I mean, I'm still grieving, but I want to remember
the good things. I want to remember. You know, I
do have these amazing people in my life. I do
have pictures to look back on, and I'm allowed to
(13:51):
watch videos and laugh about in things that we joked
around about. I'm allowed to say I miss her or
yeah it's a lot to some people, but the right people,
it won't be a lot to talk about.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
And I think that makes you such an amazing source.
You know, I know one thing for sure that you
do not heal alone. Nobody heals alone. And you don't
have to be connected to a massacre to understand loss
and to have trauma comes in so many shapes and
sizes and in so many different ways. And sometimes people
feel like my pain wouldn't nearly be as big as
(14:29):
their pain. You even thought that for a second. Well,
I'm not the family, so I shouldn't be able to
feel this much pain. Which is you know, grief and
love are so wildly connected, and they're so incredibly closely tied,
and if you stuff that stuff down, it can really
turn on you. It turns on your body, It turns
on your decision making. We start making decisions from a
(14:51):
place of loss as opposed to a place of gain.
Loss is loss. You might have just a bigger well
to pull from. So many people listening are sad so
they don't have that best friend like you had in Hannah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. I asked doctor Carroll about Whitney's complicated feelings
of being unable to feel her own grief because she
felt it was so much worse for the victims and
their families.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
A part of survivor's guilt is not feeling that you
deserve any treatment, therapy, or any sympathy for what you
did experience as part of the trauma, and so feeling
like experiencing grief or experiencing some of the things that
(15:51):
perhaps the families of the people who were killed or
so on. I feel it feels self indulgent to experience
grief and to any into you know, when people would say, oh,
that must be so hard for you to lose your
friend and blah blah blah. And of course in her case,
actually you said she was friends with the people who
did this. What makes Whitney's case particularly complicated is that
(16:16):
she feels guilty that she didn't stop it because she
knew the people who did it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
She has said, why didn't I stop it? Of course,
no way to imagine this would have happened, But yes,
you're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You know, so it's extra extra guilt. It's not just
that she survived, you know, but she blames herself. It's
just self blame. I mean, this kind of thing could
cause not only things like depression, anxiety and all of that,
but actual physical you know. I hate to say it,
but I mean like things like cancer, things like other
(16:55):
kinds of diseases or disorders. If you keep showering yourself
with all of this guilt and blame and you know,
year upon year, that is very, very unhealthy. It could
cause all kinds of systems in your body to go bunkers.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
As a reminder, we met Whitney while working on the
Pike County documentary.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Do you feel like this by talking even just through
the process of being in a documentary and sort of
talking it out, did that shift things a little bit
for you?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Well, I mean I was nervous at first to do
the documentary, but in a way it was kind of
healing for people to see not only did it affect yes,
it affected their family, and I could not imagine what
it would be for a family member, but as a
close friend, there's just it. It was healing for me
(17:48):
because people got to see it from my point of view.
People got to see how not only did the Wagners
did what they did to the Rodents and the Gillies,
but it was so many more people than what they
probably realize. I mean, like I said in the documentary,
they changed my life that day. Even today, I'm still
not going to be the same, which it would expect
(18:10):
someone to be the same right after something like that,
but no, it was actually kind of healing to be
able to voice what they did to not only the
family but to everybody else.
Speaker 6 (18:23):
I think that's the whole point of these things, right,
even this podcast, it's like sometimes people assume, oh, it's
just like to unpack a grizzly event, and truly that's
not the case. I think it's two part One, to prevent.
If you don't know that these types of things happen
in the world, it's really hard to avoid them or
identify red flags and things that are really easy to
do in retrospect in somebody else's retrospect. Even so it's
(18:47):
like a safety thing. And then also to keep the
victims alive. In the case of Idaho, not too similarly
to Pie County, that trial still lies ahead. The Idaho
trial looks like it probably will be set for next year.
That's a long time for the general public to lose
sight of the lives and the humans that were lost,
(19:08):
and it's important that we keep them alive because people
should be mad as hell.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, be mad, voice it, be mad. Don't sit and
think that they won. No one's won yet. No one
has won a single thing until that day. And that's
another thing, is that feeling if and when justice comes
is a feeling no one will ever understand that has
(19:34):
that they've not had to be through. You might cry,
you might scream, and if you feel you need to
do that, do it.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
In the Pikes in Ohio case, three of the four
accused murderers have been found or pled guilty. One member's
trial is still upcoming.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
When we got the partial justice that we have. I mean,
I was pregnant at the time, but if I could
have been out in my yard jumping around and pop models,
you know, I would have done it. But yeah, I
mean there's just so many emotions that come with that
part too. You have all this grief and then this
(20:12):
happens and it's like you're you just can't contain it.
It made me feel like we accomplished something it wasn't.
And no, it doesn't bring them back. That was one
hard feeling I had. It doesn't bring them back, but
they got the justice they deserved.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
What would you say? Would you have any words of
advice to anyone who's gone through this level of trauma
or some level of trauma, whether that's they're a victim
of a violent crime, or someone they love very deeply
is the victim of a violent crime, or in your
case too, you had it in both sides because you
knew the victim and the perpetrator. Well, that's also equally scary.
(20:53):
You know, you shared space with someone, you were texting
with someone in the days after the murderers who was like,
I have no idea. Hopefully they find the killer. Meanwhile,
you're the killer by your own admission. Do you have
any advice for anyone who's just kind of stuck in
their head and doesn't have anyone to speak to about
their feelings? How do you process?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I mean, you're not alone. When this happened with Hannah
and the Rodents, I felt alone and it took me
a while to realize I wasn't alone. Always reach out
reach out to anybody that you trust anyone that you're
comfortable with. Take your time. It's all about your time.
(21:36):
Like it's all about time. Do not think you're alone.
You can always reach out, even if it's me. You know,
anyone could ever reach out, because I've been in it.
I don't care if it would be three in the morning,
like please call you know. I needed that person. And
so instead of moping around thinking, oh, I really wish
(21:58):
I had somebody, I I want to be that person
for somebody. So there's anything. That's all I can really
think to say is just you're not alone.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
If you've now enrolled in school to become a social
worker and a victim's advocate. And we all like to
believe that in some part it is because you shared
so much on the case that you know, people really
were touched in a way that can't quite be described,
myself included. And I think we all get to heal
(22:32):
with you. And I think now you know that's obviously
a calling for you. If people want to connect with you,
you can send us any emails or any information via
the KT Studio's website and we'll make sure that it
gets to you. And obviously, now that you've gone to school.
(22:55):
You're like, legitimately becoming the exact thing that you is
pretty magical stuff. And I can't help but think that
that's Hannah Gilly at play as your guiding light a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Here again, Stephanie, you were dead on about survivor's guilt,
and that's something that we're kind of unpacking a little
bit in this There were two surviving roommates at the
time of the Idaho massacre, and it's really a big
topic that gets me a bit fired up because I've
read a lot of chatter online and there's been a
(23:41):
lot on TikTok and in various various online silly sources
that kind of give the roommates a lot of slack.
They're like, well, why didn't the roommates call nine one
to one and why did it take nine hours to
finally get authorities there? And while I understand that theoretically,
it really lack the level of empathy because until you
(24:02):
know what happened, and really nobody does at this point.
That night, one of the roommates allegedly saw the accused
Brian Colberger, going down the hallway, and she identified him
to have bushy eyebrows. At that moment, he would have
been covered in complete blood and likely would have just
(24:23):
murdered four people. You don't expect there to be a
killer in the hallway, right, You don't think, oh, this
must to be a mass murderer.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
We don't know. We don't know what it's like to
be in that situation, and we certainly shouldn't throw stones
at two people who have really survived something so horrible
and likely or really suffering. This is an assumption. I
don't know them, but survivor's guilt is what comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
You don't know how fast that passing by was in
our heads at slow mo, Oh, here's this guy walking by.
She's looking in your head when you don't know the
actual setup. You weren't there in my head. It's like
a slow motion picture, like you know, like a movie.
But how fast did they go by each other? You know,
how dark was it in the hallway? How do you
(25:16):
know what was on them? I mean, yeah, they're probably
drenched in blood, but that's not something you see on
a regular basis, So you're not going to look for that.
You're not going to notice it probably, especially if it
was dark, being college students, who knows who would be
coming in and out. There's so many different scenarios in
that shock does crazy things to you and now knowing
(25:38):
what they know. I couldn't imagine being that person who
now knowing and feeling like you didn't do something even
though you didn't know what was going on. It's not
your fault, it's not anyone's fault besides the person who
did it. So don't feel that guilt that is that
(25:59):
survivor guilt is I could have done something, I should
have done something, and I didn't, but I also didn't
know what was going on, and how could you?
Speaker 6 (26:09):
How could you? Like, the brain is not committed to
understanding something so violent, it's so outside our realm that
that's not what you probably connect. That got very easily.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And you're at home, you think you're safe.
Speaker 6 (26:21):
You think you're safe. Yeah, that's very true. And for
people to please show some empathy, some empathy that whoever
has survived this, you know that's a long journey ahead,
and you have this guilt that you know, why them
not me? Or how does my life go on? It's
such a mind screw.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Or they should be here. Why am I here but
not them? Why wasn't I one that they took? You know,
it's there's so much that goes with surviving something like this.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
There's a lot, and our hearts go out to them
as well, and we kind of encourage people to to
do so as well. If anything, they just need healing
thoughts their way. Yeah, anything that you would say for
any of the college students or yeah, anybody who maybe
brushed paths. We interviewed very recently one of the accused
(27:16):
students because he was a teacher's assistant and she was
in his class in the days leading up to the
murders and the days after. If what he's been accused
of is true, and again he's claiming innocence, If what
is being said is accurate, then he went to class
the next day and was still participating. And that a
(27:36):
little bit makes me think of Jake Wagner.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You know, kind of hits home right now.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Hits home. Yeah, And I was curious if you had
something because again the accused now convicted, Jake Wagner and
the Pie County murders. You spoke with him and connected
with him right after the murders. I did.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I told him if he needed anything, and he told me,
you know, I just don't know how I'm gonna go on.
I don't know how I'm gonna tell my daughter that,
you know, her mom is Knellinger here. After finding out
about Jake and then talking to him, it's kind of
like a oh my goodness, you know, like, wow, you
played it so well. You played everybody. Not everyone is
(28:19):
like that. Not everyone would be able to do that.
So someone that's able to come in and act like
nothing is wrong, or to know what they did and
act like nothing is wrong, they are sick and twisted.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
Is there anything that you would like to say to
the victims' families or friends?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I mean, I'm sorry, you know, it's it's not easy
to go through. And you guys are not alone. Sorry,
a little emotional, but you're not alone, and don't ever
feel like you are. And I know there's gonna be
days that it's so hard, it's so hard to get up,
(29:00):
and it's so hard to go on, and it's gonna
be so hard to just to just live. I get it,
and I get that there are days that you want
to just go to where this person is and destroy
their life. But there is some good in this system.
There will. I hope and I pray that you guys
(29:23):
get the justice you guys need and deserve, even though
it doesn't bring them back. That justice is good and
it feels good. And my biggest thing is you're just
not alone, because for the longest time I felt alone
and it took me a long time to realize I wasn't.
So even though it's been eight years that day it's
(29:44):
still so fresh to me. So I just I know
how you guys feel. I've been there, still working on
it to get better, even though it doesn't seem like
it and it seems like, gosh, this is never gonna
I'll never be the same. You might not, and that
is okay, but you will. You will find a whole
(30:08):
new you from this.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Can you tell me one quick story about Hannah Gilly
but just in her honor? Is there anything that immediately
comes to mind?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's a song, there's a country song that says her
long blonde hair, and that she loved that song because
it was long blonde. How every time I hear that,
I think of her, And sometimes I'll I'll be listening
to a station that doesn't play country music. But then
that song comes on, I'm like, ah Anna, I'm like,
(30:40):
I miss you too.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I love to see you smile, and I'm so stinking
proud of you. You are a real inspiration, you really are,
and I'm so excited to see what comes next for you.
So here's to like, you know, passing the baton on
and helping others. There's nobody better than you to do it.
And our hearts and prayers are with all of the
(31:04):
victims of the Idaho massacre and of course in Pike
County as well, and we send you all of our
love and then them thank you for taking the time.
Sorry to have you crying in your car right now, but.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Listen, I just know, I know it's how it feels.
It just makes me a little emotional because I don't
want anybody to feel that way, to feel like, Josh,
this is it, because I've been there, and it's not fun.
It's not a fun feeling, it's not a You guys
are not alone, trust me, You guys are not a loade.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
And you will smile again at some point.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yes, you will get your spark back, is what I
like to say. I'm starting to get my spark back.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leedeger,
Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Torois. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(32:12):
is a production of Katy's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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