September 5, 2024 • 32 mins
Andy Ngo, a journalist known for reporting on Antifa and far-left extremism, discusses his experiences and the challenges he faces in his work. He talks about being labeled as a right-wing extremist and the impact it has had on his reputation. Andy also provides insights into the origins of Antifa and the rise of violence in left-wing cities like Portland. He shares his concerns about the biased media and the erosion of democratic norms. Despite the threats and violence he has faced, Andy remains committed to exposing the truth and informing the public. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
I have had a cough for nearly a month. On Monday,
it'll be a month. I am losing my mind. I
can't drink tea anymore. I'm so sick of the taste.
I just drink like boiling water. A few listeners have
messaged me saying my voice sounds different on some episodes.
(00:27):
And I tweeted a jokey tweet about my cough weeks
ago now, and I got like seven hundred responses, because
that's Twitter. I'm fine, probably I've been to the doctor
three times now. I'm not just ignoring it the way
I usually would with my ailments. My lungs are clear,
just have a cough. I can't seem to shake it.
(00:50):
I sing all this because I've been thinking about gratefulness gratitude.
They're not exactly the same, but I use gratefulness. When
you're sick, it's all you can think about. I mean,
I think about it all day, the fact that I
can't stop coughing. I think about how I took good
health completely for granted. And again I get that this
(01:12):
is hopefully not serious or it is. I know there
are people who are chronically ill or have life threatening sicknesses.
I know I'm comparatively lucky, but I look around at
a world of people who aren't afraid to suddenly have
a coughing fit at their kids back to school night
and think they don't even know how lucky they are,
(01:34):
or have a coughing fit during a podcast or live
TV appearance. It turns out that constantly coughing doesn't really
work for my job or by general life. It's made
me take stock. If most things are going right in
your life, remember to feel grateful for it. No one
has everything go perfectly. I get that this is not
(01:57):
a huge deal, but I'm definitely a little bit more
aware of how good I have it after a month
of not feeling great. I try to be grateful in
my everyday life and to have gratitude for what I have.
I'm definitely going to be trying harder now. Coming up next,
an interview with Andy no. Join us after the break.
(02:19):
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Andy No. Andy is a journalist best
known for reporting on Antifa and far left extremism. He
is a senior editor at The Post Millennial and has
written reports for The New York Post, Newsweek and others.
He drew national attention when he was beaten repeatedly by
(02:41):
Antifa on the streets of Portland. His book, Unmasked Inside
Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy was a New York
Times bestseller. Hi Andy, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hi Carol, thank you so much for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
You know, I think of you as someone who who
definitely transcends all the different groups on the right, but
also I think of you as someone who should easily
be kind of accepted and admired even by you liberals, right.
Is that the case or am.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I totally well, I'm quite despised, I always say, by
the liberal establishment. It did come as a surprise to me.
I mean, in the beginning of my journalism career, I
never sought to be a so called like right wing
or conservative media type of person as I'm framed now.
(03:37):
But what I learned after one of the times that
I was beaten by anti fund two twenty nineteen is
that my reporting and my personal narrative about being victimized
is pretty powerful. And there were activists, left wing writers
who have a lot of sway, particularly on the online
(03:58):
liberal news publics machine sites, who were able to frame
me under a new narrative that I am not I'm
not legitimate because I am somehow right we far right.
They were accusing me of being accusing me of being provocateur,
and worse, some of them actually defained to me by
(04:20):
saying I had links in associations with violent forward extremists.
Those that type of false, those lies. Unfortunately I cited
in Google, in hit pieces and therefore on my Wikipedia.
So for the average person who doesn't who's not familiar
(04:40):
with my work, who looks me up on a search engine,
they see this type of stuff and they come up
come up with the perception that I am some type
of far art extremists.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Is that crazy to you?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Like?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is that just because it is to me? I mean,
you're so mild manner and you're clearly just reporting on these,
you know riots. I get again that the left hates you, obviously,
but why would kind of more normal liberals hate you?
(05:15):
What is the rationale there? Well, do you think their
side look bad?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Anything that is branded as a right wing or within
the magisphere is seen as a very toxic branding for liberals.
So regardless of whether one is actually associated with that,
as long as you are accused of being linked to that,
that is it's the easiest way to become persona and
(05:42):
on grata. With all that being said, you know, I
am very, very thankful that conservative media has given me
a platform to write in to speak. It was the
National Review back in twenty seventeen, when I was just
a student journalist at Roman State University that accepted one
of my opinion pieces and ran imprinted it when I
(06:03):
had no following to my name, the opinion section of
the Wall Street General, and then later on both the
news and the opinion section of New York Post, and
then of course many times I've been on Fort Snooze.
I'm indebted to all those conservative places. I don't denigrate
that these places happen to be right of center that
(06:25):
have given me an opportunity, because whilst the last that
shows into outright reject me from the get go on
lies based on how they perceived me to be associated,
it was the right that gave me a platform and voice.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Your book Unmasked, you follow what where in TIFA came
from and kind of how they ended up on our
streets causing this violence. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So I'm from Portland to Oregon. It's where I grew up.
And Portland's reputation, the word weird, by the way, is
being used a lot by Democrats as a talking point
against Jadie Vownce and Trump and Republican voters generally right now.
But I mean a week ago, that was a word
(07:12):
that's actually embraced by a lot of so called progressives.
So Portland's unofficial slogan was keep Portland.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Weird, Step Portland Weird.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, I know that Austin, Texas had a variation of
that as well, keep Austin weird. And so Portland was
for decades has been characterized by its progressive politics in culture,
and that had a lot of lovely things. You had
interesting people who are gravitated towards their artists, small business owners,
(07:42):
people who were very creative. And that was sort of
the environment I grew up in. And I was saying
twenty sixteen that contexts took really disturbing in dark and
deadly turn when Portland, like many other left queen cities,
many of them on the left on the West Coast,
(08:03):
were responding to the rise of Donald Trump as he
became the nominee for the Republican Party in twenty sixteen,
and then eventually want people rioted in the November twenty
sixteen election for days in Portland that at that time,
I was working as a student journalist for the Portland
State newspaper and I was assigned to go out and
(08:24):
get some video footage on my mobile phone. It's an
old iPhone, and it went out and I was really
shocked at what I was recording in that I saw
people addressed head to tone black, their faces covered. At
that time, it was unusual to mask up, and they
had crowbars and bats, and they were just smashing up
downtown and starting fires. I didn't know anything about what,
(08:47):
who and what those people were rioting before I remember
reading on the headlines the next day in the legacy
media that these were protesters who were frustrated in fear
of what a Trump administration could bring. And so immediately
I saw there's kind of a shift away from the
violent extremism that was on display, and I just kept
(09:09):
going out and continue to record many of these protests
for the next four years as they became entrenched and
became very, very violent and very quickly. One of the
I learned to those people in Black War because they
would show up with their banners and their logos and symbols,
and they described themselves as Rose City Antifa or Antifa
(09:31):
self described so called anti fascists.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
It's not just an idea, it's not just ament.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It is an idea in part, but an idea that
can manifest in organized criminality. And that's exactly what happened.
And so in leading up to twenty twenty there was
all this build up of networks that were being built
regarding links to activists, attorneys, fundraising sources, groups ADOC, groups
(10:00):
that had social media accounts, and so after George Floyd died,
there was the groundwork had already been laid for activists
to immediately mobilize and carry out right months and months
of violence. So I went under cover in twenty twenty
two to document a lot of that. But before that
I had been in the course of my reporting on
(10:21):
anti violently buttant. A lot of people first heard of
me in twenty nineteen because of these photos and videos
where I'm bloody and I'm drenched in the so called
milk shapes and I nearly died from that mall beauty.
But that's sort of like generally the kind of the
arc of my work in Portland. Eventually I had to
(10:43):
leave Portland permanently after a second attempt on my life
in twenty twenty one. So are you scared?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Are you today?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I am? Because I see what these people are capable
of doing. I think you and I and many of
the listeners and viewers are probably plugged into social media,
and if they see pictures of people arrested at these
antifra riots, they may come out with the incorrect perception
that they are not dangerous because the person is really
(11:17):
stick skinny, or they're super obese and they look like
just they.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Look like with abar with a prowbar. Anybody can be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Exactly with uh yes, with the dangerous melee weapon, with firearms,
or working even as a group, just with their hands
and fists, as in the case of what happened to me,
it was people who are punching me in the face
and head in twenty nineteen, and you know, five people
punching you and kicking you in a period of fifteen
seconds is potentially deadly. I had a brain bleed. I
(11:47):
am fearful of them because they continue to send me
death threats. They showed up at my family's home. They're
very good at one aspect of their militancy is the
people who are showing up to fight on the streets.
To another, respect our people who work in activist legal groups,
and they have access to certain databases, for example, about
like property records, so they can look up, you know,
(12:09):
what addresses are registered to your property that maybe your
family owns, and they'll show up or they'll they'll put
that information online so that one of their comrades would
take action. So I've been victim of all of that,
and there's things that have happened to me that haven't
I haven't publicized for safety reasons, but you know, my
life has been really transformed by being under bread. I've
(12:31):
had to relocate out of the US actually, because I've
been recognized in cities outside of Portland, and so the
urban areas in America are exceptionally dangerous to me because
of the violent far Left.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Was anybody arrested for any of this great question?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I'm asked that all the time. So in the twenty
nineteen beating, nobody was arrested. In the twenty twenty one beating,
nobody was arrested, and so I had to pursue a
civil claim against people that I was able to allegedly identify.
And last year there were two that went to trial
(13:10):
in Portland. I returned under a lot of threats and
the trial, which was seven days, was marred by all
these security incidents. The jurors were really afraid and they
requested a lot of security, and the judge actually stealed
the jury jury role to protect the identities of the jurist.
(13:33):
And ultimately the two that were on trial were found
not liable of allegations that I had against them. I
always knew it would be uphill battle in in Portland.
Now my account are going through the trying to seek justice.
But there were other people who I had a judgment
against in that scene, in that same case. But I
(13:54):
guess the bigger point is that in Portland, and I
would argue in other juristss like Seat Hole and in
Berkeley and San Francisco, if you are a victim of
lust wing political violence, it would be very very difficult
for you. No one cares yeah justice, yes, and even
(14:15):
law enforcement are afraid of showing up and responding to
the riot sustein carried out by far left extremes. So
I have a two.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Part question for you. First of all, when I you know,
obviously your family must be concerned about you. And like,
so when I write about like when I criticize, you know,
Joe Biden or Barack Obama back then or whatever, my
mom will say to me, like, can you not can
you not start fights with the president because I'm afraid,
I'm afraid of what's going to happen. She's from the
(14:44):
Soviet Union. She you know, she's afraid of a knock
on my door. And I say, no, I have to.
And then sort of my related question, so I want
to I want to ask you about what your family
thinks about it. But sort of related to this, I
had Jennifer say on and she took some real hit
to her reputation because she spoke out on issues that
(15:05):
she felt are important. And I had the Five for
Fighting singer John and Rassic and I had I asked
and he also he's a big pro Israel activist, for example,
so it costs them opportunities. And I've asked both of them,
why do you do it, and so for you it's
even more than just a hit to reputation. It's violence,
(15:25):
it's threat Why do it? So? What do you what
does your family think about it? And why do you
feel like you have to keep doing this even though
there's you know, threats and violence directed at you.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
So my parents also escaped communism. My parents were refugees
from Socialists Republica Vietnam. They lived really the fall as
Igone in the reunification of North and South into one
communist state, and my father was to a prison labor camp.
(15:58):
My mother in her family recent as well, and in
nineteen seventy nine, they were part of the large diaspora
of both people refugees who fled on unworthy vessels buying
the ass to stray off to Southern Coasta the Vietnam
and they ended up in a refugee camp, several refugees camps,
(16:20):
eventually in Indonesia un camp where they applied for asylum
in Southminan the United States. I was born a number
of years after that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
But so they must be like we got you to safety,
Like why was to do this?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Andy? You know, so regarding you know what your mother
told you, My family has echoed similar sentiments and that
generally the first generation of East Asian immigrants in the
United States are are not too politically involved, in fact
tend to keep themselves. I don't want to rock the
boat on anything, but my answer is some litigo is
(16:59):
in that I have to in that when I was
what I was witnessing in the legacy media reporting in
going back to twenty sixteen about ANTUFA, so called ANTUFA
in the last so it's a lot of obfiscation or
synthesis for the violence that they were carrying out. And
(17:20):
I thought, look, you know, I can write articles that
is my subjective understanding of events that I witness on
the ground, but I think what would probably be more
powerful is if people were able to see the footage themselves.
So I made it a priority to go with my
camera with my mobile phone to record the footage. And
(17:40):
that's how that's how a lot of people first to
came away with me over the years, is that just
the videos I was putting out for free on Twitter,
just as a matter of informing the public. And then
sometimes I would write an article describing more in detail
about what's happening, and I had to do it because
nobody else is doing it. And yes, I was also
(18:01):
naive and that I didn't expect that I would nearly
die several times, which is all my work. I knew
I would be hated, et cetera, et cetera. I mean
I was treated as a persona on grata in Portland
and demonized the local press. So I was expecting that
in some ways, but I didn't expect that my life
would be on the line. If would I do some
things different? Looking back, yeah, and you know, when should
(18:24):
risk your life to get a video. I've had to
sacrifice a lot. I hope that sacrifice is worth it.
I sometimes encountered people who expressed gratitude that I did
what I did, and I'm really thankful for that, for
those type of comments, because you know, sometimes over the years,
(18:48):
I kind of I think back and I wonder how
effective I've been. You know, we opened this up talking
about how I've been treated by like liberal establishment, liberal media,
and I have been I'm seen as this really toxic,
dangerous person and it does make me sad because I think,
(19:09):
you know, the jurisdictions that can have that can make
have an effect on rooting out this organized political violence
that exystem the far left. It really that calls us
to really be taken up by democrats and liberals, and
for the most part, I would say that they've refused
(19:31):
eve acknowledge the product that's existed. And so I wonder,
you know, if I failed in my mission. I don't know,
but I.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Totally I get that. I really like, especially during COVID,
I felt like I was shouting into the void. But
the people will come up to you and tell you
one of how much they appreciate you. You should focus
on them, because you are reaching people.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I know.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I know sometimes it seems dark and that, you know,
what's the point? You know, I think you exposed a
lot of things that people didn't know, and you took
great risks, great personal risks, in order to make that happen.
I think you should be really proud of yourself, and
I hope your family is too. I know it's hard
with those ex communist families, you know, from the ex
ex communist countries. It's really tough to show them that
(20:17):
we have to take these chances here and we're here
specifically to be free and to be able to say
what we want. And you know, take the chances that we.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Need to take. Indeed, I worry though about places like
my home city here, Portland, in that for example, I
get invited to speaking in the UK and Europe now
about free speech related issues, and people here are understandably
very concerned about legislation, particularly like in our Inland and
(20:48):
other places where that would roll back, certain would criminalize
aspects of speech in a way that in the US
legislatively you couldn't because of the First Amendment, right, And
I like and I always tell them that, you know,
the legislative angles is important to discuss a lot, but
(21:08):
another thing is also free speech is a cultural norm, right,
and I feel that's often ignored. I think there are
places I can speak from experience, places like Portland, where
if you hold a political rally or attempt to, I
should say that somehow contravenes the political orthodoxy of Portland.
And I can name a couple type of events. You
(21:31):
will be subjected to violence, and you'll be subjected to
the violence over and over and over because please don't
show up. The media will ignore it, so you won't
even have the public outcry until you're subjected to violence
enough times that you just learned that you best not
speak out on those particular issues in this particular county
(21:53):
or city. So obviously any type of pro Trump organizing
patriotic pro Americas that you'll have anti fun people show
up with weapons. There are also women activists who visited
Portland to dry a campaign against radical trans ideology who
have this objected to violence like women being hid in
(22:15):
the face and police show up after all the assailants
have left. So people is just self censor and this
is all done without any type of change in legislation.
Not all.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch show. You know, I like
to say that the gulags only existed for, you know,
only a short period of time in the Soviet Union.
The rest of the time, it was your neighbor policing
you and making sure that you're enthusiastically parroting the party line.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
So I one thing that really was an eye opener
and disturbed me about the cultural change in America during
the COVID nineteen pandemic is that I so I have
a lot of family in Asia still, so they in
Asian countries, there was a first to lock down and
introduce really draconian laws, and so this this would have
(23:10):
been like in January twenty twenty. I was just thinking,
there's no way that even if freedom of movement was
curl tailed with ordinances at the local level, I was thinking,
there's no way Americans would be willing to like listen
to the government on that. We are so you know,
like on the left and the right, we do what
(23:30):
we want. It's about our own personal liberties. I was
actually really shocked and once like masking and all that
became introduced, and as sort of like a new no
one seeing the number of people like tattle telling on
their neighbors, calling the authorities as there was gathering their witness,
recording people on video, photographing them if they weren't masked,
(23:51):
I was I was whoa, like, yeah, that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Was so common in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, extremely extremely common,
and people did that exactly all those things that you
describe all the time. It was shocking. It was shocking
and painful to see the country just not everywhere. Obviously,
that's the thing. I think that those of us in
really blue places thought it was happening everywhere, and it
(24:15):
really really wasn't.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
But we see now, you know, four years on from that,
places like New York and Portland. Whenever I'm back, I
see the number of people who are masked and still yeah,
you know, okay, It's one thing if people in Jews
dress how they want, but the fact that there still
is this pressure of put on masking it. I've seen
sort of the culture around some of these protests that
(24:38):
have happened for Palestine or Pride events. Yeah, these instructions
about the pandemic is still happening. We need a mask
up and it's like, yeah, you know, so it's digging
at something deeper here. This is what this are people
who are who get a hile An ability to be authoritarian,
and that authoritarian is almost rechitimized by states, in media,
(25:02):
in pop culture.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So a question that I ask all of my guests
is what do you think is our largest cultural problem?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Great question me second to think about that. I would
say one of the biggest issues is legacy. Media, in
my opinion, by and large, is captured by woke ide
al cheat and so there are a lot of journalists
who are in the I guess, in the best of
(25:34):
circumstances in good faith, but they don't even realize the
bias that they have, and then it's reflected in the reporting.
And then of course you have those who are in
bad seats and that they're explicitly partisan and whatnot, and
they get to set a certain national narrative agenda. And
I really lament that for a lot of a lot
(25:56):
of the press, doesn't they're they're they're only interested in
half of the American audience being Democrat voters, I would argue.
And so when you have what are supposed to be
media institutions that are supposed to be independent and truth
seeking being very close with one particular political party and
(26:21):
often literally parroting talking points that are given to politicians,
that's really concerning for democracy. We are here all this
talk about threats to democracy, and a lot of those
who are eroding democratic culture and democratic norms are those
who are saying that others are a threat to it.
(26:44):
People don't realize.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That, Yeah, absolutely, do you when you look at your
work and you look at your life, do you feel
like you've made it? Do you still have al ways
to go? Or do you feel good about where you are?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You and I could both come from immigrant families, and
you know, I'm assuming this about you, but with East
Asian immigrant parents, you know you never quite make it.
You're never good enough in that you know that there
are some positives of being put under that type of pressure.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
For sure, I feel like you to apply that to
my own kids.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Sometimes Have I made it? I would say I never
thought that I would have an opportunity one day to
speak to somebody like you, for example, to give testimony
to the House of repercentages and to the Senate, and
to write a book that became a New York Times bestseller.
I was this person in Portland that nobody knew, who
(27:43):
was at Portland State University, which is not a competitive
university at all, from my graduate studies, and to see
that I was able to go from somebody who was
posting videos approachests from Portland to an audience of a
few hundred to one day having the audience that I
have now. I sometimes it still feels a bit surreal,
(28:07):
and I'm glad that it feels surreal for me, and
that you know, I'm sure you met I'm assuming you know.
I'm sure people who are in the public space you
meet people who who have ego. Other people who have
ego because they're they're public figures and they have the
big head of it. It's important for me to constantly
(28:28):
ground myself and remind myself that, you know, none of
this is like just like a given like. I work
very hard for my audience, but and I also have
to respect them and continually earn their trust. You know,
It's it's been. It's been difficult over the years, particularly
with you know, in news, it's very easy to get
out information that is inaccurate at that moment, or it
(28:50):
turns out to be inaccurate, I guess it, and then
having to own up to it and correct the record
and admit when you're wrong. You know, the times that
I've been wrong is very disappointing and embarrassed. But I
hold myself up to that standard. I hope that my
audience follows me, in part because they know that the
information I'm putting out is awkward.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
You seem like a very grounded person, so I think
you're accomplishing that in a real way. I mean, it's been.
I've loved talking to you. This has been really, really great, Andy.
I've been a big fan of yours for a long time,
I always found you just very brave, but just a
great person and somebody who is doing really fantastic work.
(29:32):
So I have to say I think you're accomplishing what
you want to be accomplishing.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Thank you so much, Carol. That means a lot, and
feeling is mutual. I've read many, many of your columns,
read many of your posts on Twitter over years now
I think so much did incredible work, and I really.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Before the show began, I told Andy that I had
lived in Scotland and worked in their independence movement when
I was young and silly, and he still continued on
with the.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Interviews for listeners who aren't aware the independence movement in Scotland,
which is they want to break away from the United
Kingdom is in recent years has taken a turn towards woke, so.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Extremely are left.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's said, yeah, it's very it's very bizarre phenomenon because
you have nationalism murder with woke, which are normally all
you know, not on the same sign. But for the
SNP Scoltish National Party, they have made it the same issue.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, it's amazing that nationalism is okay and that one
very narrow instance only because they have all the right positions. Well, Andy,
I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much for
coming on my show. The last question that I asked
my guests and I you know, you can take a
minute to think about it, but a tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I appreciate the question and the opportunity to answer that. Uh,
I would don't don't forget the humanity of the people
that seek to hurt you. I've been undercover in instances
where I've been able to be around people who they knew,
where it was, would kill me. And because I've been close,
(31:17):
I've been able to see a side of them that
they wouldn't show to outsiders and you. I try to
remind myself that behind their threats of violence, behind their
acts of violence and conduct, some of them, I've seen
our people who are really hurting a lot and have
been radicalized into political militancy because they've lost meaning and
(31:38):
purpose in their lives, and that they're still human and
they still have a hint.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You really are, You're too good. I mean seeing seeing
these people as human is is really just beyond kind
of you, especially when you know that they want to
hurt you. Right, You're far better person than I am.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Thank you for the question. He is. Andy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Know his book is unmasked inside antifa's radical plan to
destroy democracy. Get the book. He is fantastic. Follow him
on all the platforms. Thanks so much for coming on, Andy,
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
I have had a cough for nearly a month. On Monday,
it'll be a month. I am losing my mind. I
can't drink tea anymore. I'm so sick of the taste.
I just drink like boiling water. A few listeners have
messaged me saying my voice sounds different on some episodes.
(00:27):
And I tweeted a jokey tweet about my cough weeks
ago now, and I got like seven hundred responses, because
that's Twitter. I'm fine, probably I've been to the doctor
three times now. I'm not just ignoring it the way
I usually would with my ailments. My lungs are clear,
just have a cough. I can't seem to shake it.
(00:50):
I sing all this because I've been thinking about gratefulness gratitude.
They're not exactly the same, but I use gratefulness. When
you're sick, it's all you can think about. I mean,
I think about it all day, the fact that I
can't stop coughing. I think about how I took good
health completely for granted. And again I get that this
(01:12):
is hopefully not serious or it is. I know there
are people who are chronically ill or have life threatening sicknesses.
I know I'm comparatively lucky, but I look around at
a world of people who aren't afraid to suddenly have
a coughing fit at their kids back to school night
and think they don't even know how lucky they are,
(01:34):
or have a coughing fit during a podcast or live
TV appearance. It turns out that constantly coughing doesn't really
work for my job or by general life. It's made
me take stock. If most things are going right in
your life, remember to feel grateful for it. No one
has everything go perfectly. I get that this is not
(01:57):
a huge deal, but I'm definitely a little bit more
aware of how good I have it after a month
of not feeling great. I try to be grateful in
my everyday life and to have gratitude for what I have.
I'm definitely going to be trying harder now. Coming up next,
an interview with Andy no. Join us after the break.
(02:19):
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Andy No. Andy is a journalist best
known for reporting on Antifa and far left extremism. He
is a senior editor at The Post Millennial and has
written reports for The New York Post, Newsweek and others.
He drew national attention when he was beaten repeatedly by
(02:41):
Antifa on the streets of Portland. His book, Unmasked Inside
Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy was a New York
Times bestseller. Hi Andy, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hi Carol, thank you so much for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
You know, I think of you as someone who who
definitely transcends all the different groups on the right, but
also I think of you as someone who should easily
be kind of accepted and admired even by you liberals, right.
Is that the case or am.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I totally well, I'm quite despised, I always say, by
the liberal establishment. It did come as a surprise to me.
I mean, in the beginning of my journalism career, I
never sought to be a so called like right wing
or conservative media type of person as I'm framed now.
(03:37):
But what I learned after one of the times that
I was beaten by anti fund two twenty nineteen is
that my reporting and my personal narrative about being victimized
is pretty powerful. And there were activists, left wing writers
who have a lot of sway, particularly on the online
(03:58):
liberal news publics machine sites, who were able to frame
me under a new narrative that I am not I'm
not legitimate because I am somehow right we far right.
They were accusing me of being accusing me of being provocateur,
and worse, some of them actually defained to me by
(04:20):
saying I had links in associations with violent forward extremists.
Those that type of false, those lies. Unfortunately I cited
in Google, in hit pieces and therefore on my Wikipedia.
So for the average person who doesn't who's not familiar
(04:40):
with my work, who looks me up on a search engine,
they see this type of stuff and they come up
come up with the perception that I am some type
of far art extremists.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Is that crazy to you?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Like?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is that just because it is to me? I mean,
you're so mild manner and you're clearly just reporting on these,
you know riots. I get again that the left hates you, obviously,
but why would kind of more normal liberals hate you?
(05:15):
What is the rationale there? Well, do you think their
side look bad?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Anything that is branded as a right wing or within
the magisphere is seen as a very toxic branding for liberals.
So regardless of whether one is actually associated with that,
as long as you are accused of being linked to that,
that is it's the easiest way to become persona and
(05:42):
on grata. With all that being said, you know, I
am very, very thankful that conservative media has given me
a platform to write in to speak. It was the
National Review back in twenty seventeen, when I was just
a student journalist at Roman State University that accepted one
of my opinion pieces and ran imprinted it when I
(06:03):
had no following to my name, the opinion section of
the Wall Street General, and then later on both the
news and the opinion section of New York Post, and
then of course many times I've been on Fort Snooze.
I'm indebted to all those conservative places. I don't denigrate
that these places happen to be right of center that
(06:25):
have given me an opportunity, because whilst the last that
shows into outright reject me from the get go on
lies based on how they perceived me to be associated,
it was the right that gave me a platform and voice.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Your book Unmasked, you follow what where in TIFA came
from and kind of how they ended up on our
streets causing this violence. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So I'm from Portland to Oregon. It's where I grew up.
And Portland's reputation, the word weird, by the way, is
being used a lot by Democrats as a talking point
against Jadie Vownce and Trump and Republican voters generally right now.
But I mean a week ago, that was a word
(07:12):
that's actually embraced by a lot of so called progressives.
So Portland's unofficial slogan was keep Portland.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Weird, Step Portland Weird.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, I know that Austin, Texas had a variation of
that as well, keep Austin weird. And so Portland was
for decades has been characterized by its progressive politics in culture,
and that had a lot of lovely things. You had
interesting people who are gravitated towards their artists, small business owners,
(07:42):
people who were very creative. And that was sort of
the environment I grew up in. And I was saying
twenty sixteen that contexts took really disturbing in dark and
deadly turn when Portland, like many other left queen cities,
many of them on the left on the West Coast,
(08:03):
were responding to the rise of Donald Trump as he
became the nominee for the Republican Party in twenty sixteen,
and then eventually want people rioted in the November twenty
sixteen election for days in Portland that at that time,
I was working as a student journalist for the Portland
State newspaper and I was assigned to go out and
(08:24):
get some video footage on my mobile phone. It's an
old iPhone, and it went out and I was really
shocked at what I was recording in that I saw
people addressed head to tone black, their faces covered. At
that time, it was unusual to mask up, and they
had crowbars and bats, and they were just smashing up
downtown and starting fires. I didn't know anything about what,
(08:47):
who and what those people were rioting before I remember
reading on the headlines the next day in the legacy
media that these were protesters who were frustrated in fear
of what a Trump administration could bring. And so immediately
I saw there's kind of a shift away from the
violent extremism that was on display, and I just kept
(09:09):
going out and continue to record many of these protests
for the next four years as they became entrenched and
became very, very violent and very quickly. One of the
I learned to those people in Black War because they
would show up with their banners and their logos and symbols,
and they described themselves as Rose City Antifa or Antifa
(09:31):
self described so called anti fascists.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
It's not just an idea, it's not just ament.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It is an idea in part, but an idea that
can manifest in organized criminality. And that's exactly what happened.
And so in leading up to twenty twenty there was
all this build up of networks that were being built
regarding links to activists, attorneys, fundraising sources, groups ADOC, groups
(10:00):
that had social media accounts, and so after George Floyd died,
there was the groundwork had already been laid for activists
to immediately mobilize and carry out right months and months
of violence. So I went under cover in twenty twenty
two to document a lot of that. But before that
I had been in the course of my reporting on
(10:21):
anti violently buttant. A lot of people first heard of
me in twenty nineteen because of these photos and videos
where I'm bloody and I'm drenched in the so called
milk shapes and I nearly died from that mall beauty.
But that's sort of like generally the kind of the
arc of my work in Portland. Eventually I had to
(10:43):
leave Portland permanently after a second attempt on my life
in twenty twenty one. So are you scared?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Are you today?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I am? Because I see what these people are capable
of doing. I think you and I and many of
the listeners and viewers are probably plugged into social media,
and if they see pictures of people arrested at these
antifra riots, they may come out with the incorrect perception
that they are not dangerous because the person is really
(11:17):
stick skinny, or they're super obese and they look like
just they.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Look like with abar with a prowbar. Anybody can be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Exactly with uh yes, with the dangerous melee weapon, with firearms,
or working even as a group, just with their hands
and fists, as in the case of what happened to me,
it was people who are punching me in the face
and head in twenty nineteen, and you know, five people
punching you and kicking you in a period of fifteen
seconds is potentially deadly. I had a brain bleed. I
(11:47):
am fearful of them because they continue to send me
death threats. They showed up at my family's home. They're
very good at one aspect of their militancy is the
people who are showing up to fight on the streets.
To another, respect our people who work in activist legal groups,
and they have access to certain databases, for example, about
like property records, so they can look up, you know,
(12:09):
what addresses are registered to your property that maybe your
family owns, and they'll show up or they'll they'll put
that information online so that one of their comrades would
take action. So I've been victim of all of that,
and there's things that have happened to me that haven't
I haven't publicized for safety reasons, but you know, my
life has been really transformed by being under bread. I've
(12:31):
had to relocate out of the US actually, because I've
been recognized in cities outside of Portland, and so the
urban areas in America are exceptionally dangerous to me because
of the violent far Left.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Was anybody arrested for any of this great question?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I'm asked that all the time. So in the twenty
nineteen beating, nobody was arrested. In the twenty twenty one beating,
nobody was arrested, and so I had to pursue a
civil claim against people that I was able to allegedly identify.
And last year there were two that went to trial
(13:10):
in Portland. I returned under a lot of threats and
the trial, which was seven days, was marred by all
these security incidents. The jurors were really afraid and they
requested a lot of security, and the judge actually stealed
the jury jury role to protect the identities of the jurist.
(13:33):
And ultimately the two that were on trial were found
not liable of allegations that I had against them. I
always knew it would be uphill battle in in Portland.
Now my account are going through the trying to seek justice.
But there were other people who I had a judgment
against in that scene, in that same case. But I
(13:54):
guess the bigger point is that in Portland, and I
would argue in other juristss like Seat Hole and in
Berkeley and San Francisco, if you are a victim of
lust wing political violence, it would be very very difficult
for you. No one cares yeah justice, yes, and even
(14:15):
law enforcement are afraid of showing up and responding to
the riot sustein carried out by far left extremes. So
I have a two.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Part question for you. First of all, when I you know,
obviously your family must be concerned about you. And like,
so when I write about like when I criticize, you know,
Joe Biden or Barack Obama back then or whatever, my
mom will say to me, like, can you not can
you not start fights with the president because I'm afraid,
I'm afraid of what's going to happen. She's from the
(14:44):
Soviet Union. She you know, she's afraid of a knock
on my door. And I say, no, I have to.
And then sort of my related question, so I want
to I want to ask you about what your family
thinks about it. But sort of related to this, I
had Jennifer say on and she took some real hit
to her reputation because she spoke out on issues that
(15:05):
she felt are important. And I had the Five for
Fighting singer John and Rassic and I had I asked
and he also he's a big pro Israel activist, for example,
so it costs them opportunities. And I've asked both of them,
why do you do it, and so for you it's
even more than just a hit to reputation. It's violence,
(15:25):
it's threat Why do it? So? What do you what
does your family think about it? And why do you
feel like you have to keep doing this even though
there's you know, threats and violence directed at you.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
So my parents also escaped communism. My parents were refugees
from Socialists Republica Vietnam. They lived really the fall as
Igone in the reunification of North and South into one
communist state, and my father was to a prison labor camp.
(15:58):
My mother in her family recent as well, and in
nineteen seventy nine, they were part of the large diaspora
of both people refugees who fled on unworthy vessels buying
the ass to stray off to Southern Coasta the Vietnam
and they ended up in a refugee camp, several refugees camps,
(16:20):
eventually in Indonesia un camp where they applied for asylum
in Southminan the United States. I was born a number
of years after that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
But so they must be like we got you to safety,
Like why was to do this?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Andy? You know, so regarding you know what your mother
told you, My family has echoed similar sentiments and that
generally the first generation of East Asian immigrants in the
United States are are not too politically involved, in fact
tend to keep themselves. I don't want to rock the
boat on anything, but my answer is some litigo is
(16:59):
in that I have to in that when I was
what I was witnessing in the legacy media reporting in
going back to twenty sixteen about ANTUFA, so called ANTUFA
in the last so it's a lot of obfiscation or
synthesis for the violence that they were carrying out. And
(17:20):
I thought, look, you know, I can write articles that
is my subjective understanding of events that I witness on
the ground, but I think what would probably be more
powerful is if people were able to see the footage themselves.
So I made it a priority to go with my
camera with my mobile phone to record the footage. And
(17:40):
that's how that's how a lot of people first to
came away with me over the years, is that just
the videos I was putting out for free on Twitter,
just as a matter of informing the public. And then
sometimes I would write an article describing more in detail
about what's happening, and I had to do it because
nobody else is doing it. And yes, I was also
(18:01):
naive and that I didn't expect that I would nearly
die several times, which is all my work. I knew
I would be hated, et cetera, et cetera. I mean
I was treated as a persona on grata in Portland
and demonized the local press. So I was expecting that
in some ways, but I didn't expect that my life
would be on the line. If would I do some
things different? Looking back, yeah, and you know, when should
(18:24):
risk your life to get a video. I've had to
sacrifice a lot. I hope that sacrifice is worth it.
I sometimes encountered people who expressed gratitude that I did
what I did, and I'm really thankful for that, for
those type of comments, because you know, sometimes over the years,
(18:48):
I kind of I think back and I wonder how
effective I've been. You know, we opened this up talking
about how I've been treated by like liberal establishment, liberal media,
and I have been I'm seen as this really toxic,
dangerous person and it does make me sad because I think,
(19:09):
you know, the jurisdictions that can have that can make
have an effect on rooting out this organized political violence
that exystem the far left. It really that calls us
to really be taken up by democrats and liberals, and
for the most part, I would say that they've refused
(19:31):
eve acknowledge the product that's existed. And so I wonder,
you know, if I failed in my mission. I don't know,
but I.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Totally I get that. I really like, especially during COVID,
I felt like I was shouting into the void. But
the people will come up to you and tell you
one of how much they appreciate you. You should focus
on them, because you are reaching people.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I know.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I know sometimes it seems dark and that, you know,
what's the point? You know, I think you exposed a
lot of things that people didn't know, and you took
great risks, great personal risks, in order to make that happen.
I think you should be really proud of yourself, and
I hope your family is too. I know it's hard
with those ex communist families, you know, from the ex
ex communist countries. It's really tough to show them that
(20:17):
we have to take these chances here and we're here
specifically to be free and to be able to say
what we want. And you know, take the chances that we.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Need to take. Indeed, I worry though about places like
my home city here, Portland, in that for example, I
get invited to speaking in the UK and Europe now
about free speech related issues, and people here are understandably
very concerned about legislation, particularly like in our Inland and
(20:48):
other places where that would roll back, certain would criminalize
aspects of speech in a way that in the US
legislatively you couldn't because of the First Amendment, right, And
I like and I always tell them that, you know,
the legislative angles is important to discuss a lot, but
(21:08):
another thing is also free speech is a cultural norm, right,
and I feel that's often ignored. I think there are
places I can speak from experience, places like Portland, where
if you hold a political rally or attempt to, I
should say that somehow contravenes the political orthodoxy of Portland.
And I can name a couple type of events. You
(21:31):
will be subjected to violence, and you'll be subjected to
the violence over and over and over because please don't
show up. The media will ignore it, so you won't
even have the public outcry until you're subjected to violence
enough times that you just learned that you best not
speak out on those particular issues in this particular county
(21:53):
or city. So obviously any type of pro Trump organizing
patriotic pro Americas that you'll have anti fun people show
up with weapons. There are also women activists who visited
Portland to dry a campaign against radical trans ideology who
have this objected to violence like women being hid in
(22:15):
the face and police show up after all the assailants
have left. So people is just self censor and this
is all done without any type of change in legislation.
Not all.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch show. You know, I like
to say that the gulags only existed for, you know,
only a short period of time in the Soviet Union.
The rest of the time, it was your neighbor policing
you and making sure that you're enthusiastically parroting the party line.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
So I one thing that really was an eye opener
and disturbed me about the cultural change in America during
the COVID nineteen pandemic is that I so I have
a lot of family in Asia still, so they in
Asian countries, there was a first to lock down and
introduce really draconian laws, and so this this would have
(23:10):
been like in January twenty twenty. I was just thinking,
there's no way that even if freedom of movement was
curl tailed with ordinances at the local level, I was thinking,
there's no way Americans would be willing to like listen
to the government on that. We are so you know,
like on the left and the right, we do what
(23:30):
we want. It's about our own personal liberties. I was
actually really shocked and once like masking and all that
became introduced, and as sort of like a new no
one seeing the number of people like tattle telling on
their neighbors, calling the authorities as there was gathering their witness,
recording people on video, photographing them if they weren't masked,
(23:51):
I was I was whoa, like, yeah, that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Was so common in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, extremely extremely common,
and people did that exactly all those things that you
describe all the time. It was shocking. It was shocking
and painful to see the country just not everywhere. Obviously,
that's the thing. I think that those of us in
really blue places thought it was happening everywhere, and it
(24:15):
really really wasn't.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
But we see now, you know, four years on from that,
places like New York and Portland. Whenever I'm back, I
see the number of people who are masked and still yeah,
you know, okay, It's one thing if people in Jews
dress how they want, but the fact that there still
is this pressure of put on masking it. I've seen
sort of the culture around some of these protests that
(24:38):
have happened for Palestine or Pride events. Yeah, these instructions
about the pandemic is still happening. We need a mask
up and it's like, yeah, you know, so it's digging
at something deeper here. This is what this are people
who are who get a hile An ability to be authoritarian,
and that authoritarian is almost rechitimized by states, in media,
(25:02):
in pop culture.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So a question that I ask all of my guests
is what do you think is our largest cultural problem?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Great question me second to think about that. I would
say one of the biggest issues is legacy. Media, in
my opinion, by and large, is captured by woke ide
al cheat and so there are a lot of journalists
who are in the I guess, in the best of
(25:34):
circumstances in good faith, but they don't even realize the
bias that they have, and then it's reflected in the reporting.
And then of course you have those who are in
bad seats and that they're explicitly partisan and whatnot, and
they get to set a certain national narrative agenda. And
I really lament that for a lot of a lot
(25:56):
of the press, doesn't they're they're they're only interested in
half of the American audience being Democrat voters, I would argue.
And so when you have what are supposed to be
media institutions that are supposed to be independent and truth
seeking being very close with one particular political party and
(26:21):
often literally parroting talking points that are given to politicians,
that's really concerning for democracy. We are here all this
talk about threats to democracy, and a lot of those
who are eroding democratic culture and democratic norms are those
who are saying that others are a threat to it.
(26:44):
People don't realize.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That, Yeah, absolutely, do you when you look at your
work and you look at your life, do you feel
like you've made it? Do you still have al ways
to go? Or do you feel good about where you are?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You and I could both come from immigrant families, and
you know, I'm assuming this about you, but with East
Asian immigrant parents, you know you never quite make it.
You're never good enough in that you know that there
are some positives of being put under that type of pressure.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
For sure, I feel like you to apply that to
my own kids.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Sometimes Have I made it? I would say I never
thought that I would have an opportunity one day to
speak to somebody like you, for example, to give testimony
to the House of repercentages and to the Senate, and
to write a book that became a New York Times bestseller.
I was this person in Portland that nobody knew, who
(27:43):
was at Portland State University, which is not a competitive
university at all, from my graduate studies, and to see
that I was able to go from somebody who was
posting videos approachests from Portland to an audience of a
few hundred to one day having the audience that I
have now. I sometimes it still feels a bit surreal,
(28:07):
and I'm glad that it feels surreal for me, and
that you know, I'm sure you met I'm assuming you know.
I'm sure people who are in the public space you
meet people who who have ego. Other people who have
ego because they're they're public figures and they have the
big head of it. It's important for me to constantly
(28:28):
ground myself and remind myself that, you know, none of
this is like just like a given like. I work
very hard for my audience, but and I also have
to respect them and continually earn their trust. You know,
It's it's been. It's been difficult over the years, particularly
with you know, in news, it's very easy to get
out information that is inaccurate at that moment, or it
(28:50):
turns out to be inaccurate, I guess it, and then
having to own up to it and correct the record
and admit when you're wrong. You know, the times that
I've been wrong is very disappointing and embarrassed. But I
hold myself up to that standard. I hope that my
audience follows me, in part because they know that the
information I'm putting out is awkward.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
You seem like a very grounded person, so I think
you're accomplishing that in a real way. I mean, it's been.
I've loved talking to you. This has been really, really great, Andy.
I've been a big fan of yours for a long time,
I always found you just very brave, but just a
great person and somebody who is doing really fantastic work.
(29:32):
So I have to say I think you're accomplishing what
you want to be accomplishing.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Thank you so much, Carol. That means a lot, and
feeling is mutual. I've read many, many of your columns,
read many of your posts on Twitter over years now
I think so much did incredible work, and I really.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Before the show began, I told Andy that I had
lived in Scotland and worked in their independence movement when
I was young and silly, and he still continued on
with the.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Interviews for listeners who aren't aware the independence movement in Scotland,
which is they want to break away from the United
Kingdom is in recent years has taken a turn towards woke, so.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Extremely are left.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's said, yeah, it's very it's very bizarre phenomenon because
you have nationalism murder with woke, which are normally all
you know, not on the same sign. But for the
SNP Scoltish National Party, they have made it the same issue.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, it's amazing that nationalism is okay and that one
very narrow instance only because they have all the right positions. Well, Andy,
I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much for
coming on my show. The last question that I asked
my guests and I you know, you can take a
minute to think about it, but a tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I appreciate the question and the opportunity to answer that. Uh,
I would don't don't forget the humanity of the people
that seek to hurt you. I've been undercover in instances
where I've been able to be around people who they knew,
where it was, would kill me. And because I've been close,
(31:17):
I've been able to see a side of them that
they wouldn't show to outsiders and you. I try to
remind myself that behind their threats of violence, behind their
acts of violence and conduct, some of them, I've seen
our people who are really hurting a lot and have
been radicalized into political militancy because they've lost meaning and
(31:38):
purpose in their lives, and that they're still human and
they still have a hint.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You really are, You're too good. I mean seeing seeing
these people as human is is really just beyond kind
of you, especially when you know that they want to
hurt you. Right, You're far better person than I am.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Thank you for the question. He is. Andy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Know his book is unmasked inside antifa's radical plan to
destroy democracy. Get the book. He is fantastic. Follow him
on all the platforms. Thanks so much for coming on, Andy,
Host
Karol Markowicz
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