August 3, 2023 • 54 mins
Chase Strangio is Deputy Director for Transgender Justice with the ACLU’s LGBT & HIV Project, and a nationally recognized expert on transgender rights. Miss Peppermint is an actress, musical performer, and she nearly won season 9 of RuPaul’s Drag race. She's become the ACLU’s first-ever Artist Ambassador for Trans Justice.
Laverne has brought these two powerhouses on to discuss how we can change the conversation about trans people from surgery and transition to humanity and privacy. They talk about the state of legislatures around the country, the truth about gender affirming care, strategies for allies to step up, and, of course, finding joy in their beautiful community.
Please rate, review, subscribe and share The Laverne Cox Show with everyone you know. You can find Laverne on Instagram and Twitter @LaverneCox and on Facebook at @LaverneCoxForReal.
As always, stay in the love.
Links of Interest:
ACLU Mapping Attacks on LGBTQ Rights
Laverne and Katie Couric Follow-Up Visit (Video)
Trans People Facing Horrifying Rhetoric at State Houses (re Gwendolyn Herzig)
The NY Times Publishes a Defense of JK Rowling… (VanityFair)
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Pushing Back Against Anti-Trans Media & Policies with Chase Strangio
CREDITS:
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Brooke Peterson-Bell
Editing Support: Nikolas Harter
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's not just us sitting around complaining about some bills.
The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
that we're always miserable, is because people are constantly attacking
us and we're constantly noticing it. It's not like I've
been upset every day when I woke up. It's that
every single time when I read the paper every morning,
New York Times.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
But now some other story attacking me. That's what's wrong.
That's what's true.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My
name is Laverne Cox. As of the day we're recording
this February sixteen, twenty twenty three, over three hundred pieces
of anti trans legislation have been introduced in state legislatures
all over the country. That's since January of this year.
(01:03):
And that legislation targets the ability of trans folks to
access gender affirming care, not only for trans kids, but
for trans adults. And a huge reason why this lesstulation
has been so successful is that the conversation with and
about trans people has been captured by folks who don't
(01:25):
want trans people to exist. I feel like a huge
part of my work in the media since I've become
a public figure, has been about changing the conversation that
we have with and about trans people away from surgery
and transition and towards our humanity. So today we need
(01:46):
to have a conversation about reclaiming the narrative with and
about trans people from the perspective of trans humanity, from
a perspective that trans people have a right to exist
in the world on our own terms and have bodily autonomy.
So to have this discussion today, I've invited two of
my dearest friends, Chase Strangio. Chase is Deputy Director of
(02:11):
Transgender Justice with the ACLUS LGBT and HIV Project and
a nationally recognized expert on transgender rights. In addition to
his litigation work, Chase leads the ACLU's advocacy to defeat
anti trans laws and state legislatures. Chase has appeared on
Rachel Maddow, MSNBC, CNN, PBS News Hour, and many more.
(02:33):
In twenty twenty, he was included in Time Magazine's list
of the one hundred most influential people in the World.
Miss Peppermint is the ACLU's first ever Artist Ambassador for
Trans Justice. She is an actress and singer with six
albums to her credit and many many Glad Award nominations.
(02:54):
She was the runner up in season nine of RuPaul's
Drag Race as the first out trans contestant to be cast,
and made history as the first trans woman to originate
a principal role on Broadway in twenty eighteen for the
show Head Over Heels. Some of her most recent work
It's Hulse rom com Fire Island, and Netflix's Survival of
(03:16):
the Thickest. Please enjoy my conversation with Chase Strangio and
with Miss Peppermint. Hello, Chase and Peppermint, Welcome to the podcast.
How are you feeling today? Peppermint? How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Happy to be with you here today? And Chase?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
In spite of all of the weeks and years and months,
and it feels like millennia of bad news that seems
to come down the pipeline attacking our community, but I'm great.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Chase Darling, how are you today? I am?
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Here's what Will said when I woke up, I was
not feeling today, and then I was like, you know what.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I'm talking to Laverne and Peppermint later and that is
going to be my boost.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
And so I am feeling the energetic boost just sharing
this virtual space with you both.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I already like feel my heart rate going down.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I feel more at ease because I needed this, So
I feel great.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Thank you for that, Chase. I want to start off
by saying that I want to have a conversation about
how we change the conversation around how we talk with
and about trans people. Last season on this podcast, Chase
and I had a conversation where we delved very deeply
into the very specific right wing propaganda. We listened to clips,
(04:44):
we discussed, and I left that podcast re traumatized. I
don't know if I told you this, Chase. I went
and cried after you left. I cried for like twenty minutes,
and I was like, no one's going to hear this.
The people who need to hear it aren't this. I
just reached aumatize myself for no reason, and I don't
want today's podcast to be that way. I often watch
(05:05):
the news and watch stories, watch hearings, clips from hearings,
and just feel defeated and victimized and traumatized, and I
don't want us to leave here today with that feeling.
I want us to leave here empowered, acknowledging the attempts
(05:26):
of legislative genocide that's happening against our community, be truthful
about that. But I want to come away feeling empowered
and not like victimized and exhausted from this. I want
this to be invigorating for us and for our community,
and I want to try to model a way to
have this conversation on our terms and not theirs. All
this fucked up shit is happening, but like, we must
(05:51):
not lose our hope, our sense of like ourselves. And
I think too, this is the lesson I'll say, and
I'll let you guys come in. I think that, like
what happens when I watch these hearings, when I watch
this propaganda, is that all of my own the things
I've internalized it by myself as a transperson, come up again.
(06:12):
That like, we are raised in the same society that
like treats us and sees us as less than as
somehow fraudulent, and then we see these stories and see
this legislation, and it brings up all that stuff again,
and so we have to like talk about our trauma,
acknowledge it and not be allowed to be taken back
(06:33):
into that traumatizing space. We have to be able to
be present with like the beauty of who we are,
with the humanity of who we are, and again not
see ourselves through their lens and their terms, but on
our terms. Do you feel me?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, speaking from my own perspective, that balance of needing
to and being able to experience a sense of joy
and life living just my truth and my life and
in my authenticity as a trans woman, as a black
trans woman, as a person of many identities, intersectional existence
(07:11):
that occurred to me through performing in Drag When I
was doing my show, and I knew that people wanted
to hear a remix and do a dance move and
all these things, which is why they came to the
Gay Bar to see my show.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But then I also it was really important for me.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
To advocate on behalf of our community with whatever issues
were going on at the time. I was really heavily
involved in AIDS and HIV education and prevention, and so
I would do sort of activations at my show, and
you know, I thought to myself, is this really my place?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
To do this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I'm not some like professional advocate or anything, but I
know that I come from a long line of people
in our community that we live fabulously every single day
while we are performing everyday activism, and so I think
having that balance, like you said, is really important. I
guess the key is, too, like you said, leave at
(07:59):
the end of the day with a sense of joy
and knowing that we can withstand anything that we will
eventually overcome.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Without sounding too cliche, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Chase, And for you, you are quite literally in the fight.
You're fighting me these bills in court every single day.
This is like your whole life, and I can only
imagine how overwhelming it is. At this point, about three
hundred pieces of anti trans legislation have been introduced in
(08:33):
state legislatures all over the country. This is the most
that we've ever seen, Is that, correct, Chase? Can you
just give us a rundown of where we are legislatively?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:45):
So it's so bad.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I almost don't even know where to begin, and so
much of my life is now consumed with both fighting
the bills legislatively, preparing to litigate in court. But I
think perhaps the most challenging part is sort of talking
to people about the limits on what we can do
in those spaces. We simply are not beating them legislatively.
We're losing in so many of the bills are passing
(09:09):
so separate and apart from the three hundred number, which
is staggering in a sign of just how gratuitous it
has all become more concerning is the fact that this
is quite literally the number one priority for Republican led
legislatures across the country. Hearings are being had day one,
bills are being passed within a week. We are in
a situation and it's truly horrifying, and I have to say,
(09:32):
as a relatively cynical person, even I didn't think it
would get this bad so quickly. Where we could leave
twenty twenty three legislative sessions with fifteen states banning gender
affirming care for adolescences, and some of those quite frankly,
could be banning them for adults.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
That is where we're at, And then.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
We are preparing to litigate, but we are litigating in
stacked courts where I simply have to tell people that
we will likely not win. So what that means is
going back to your original point, is we are just
gonna have to find the joy in the process. In
our existence. I'm not looking to the government to give
me my joy. I'm not looking to the government to
(10:09):
validate my existence. I find that within myself and in community.
That's why when I woke up this morning and I
was like, already I was in a bad mood. Then
there was the defense of jk Rowling piece in the
New York Times. I was like, is this the onion
number two?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
And then I was like, you know what, I wait,
gonna talk to la Verne.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And pup be kind rewind. This morning there was a
defense of jk Rowling. And I don't like to say
her name, but like, let's we'll say her name today.
There's a defense of jk Rowling the New York Times
this morning.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Like as of this recording, you mean in the heels
of yesterday or two days ago.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Oh, let's just let me take you all on a journey,
a twenty four hour journey, which is yesterday. You have
two letters that go to The New York Times. One
is from contributors to The New York Times speaking about
the very significant flaws of the coverage of trans people
in the New York Times. Which, by the way, I've
been writing about since twenty sixteen. Number two, there's a
letter that's led by Glad with sign on signatories from
(11:05):
organizations critiquing The New York Times for the incredibly biased
coverage of trans people. The New York Times issues the
most defensive response that's like basically a slap in the
face of trans people and combines the two letters that
basically says, you are advocates, we're real journalists, we are
proud of our coverage. We have a huge amount of
sensitivity to trans people. By the way, this is from
(11:26):
their communications person who like used to work for the
CIA or something, which is very on brand and not surprising.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
I kid you not.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
We wake up this morning and Pamela Paul has written
a op ed that is titled in Defense of JK.
Rowling that is just the most transphobic piece you've ever seen.
And I saw the image and I thought it was
the onion because it was too ridiculous to be believed
to be true. So we have states trying to criminalize
us for going to the bathroom, states banning our healthcare,
(11:56):
we have courts doing what they're doing, and then we
have Miss Pamela Paul and j ak Rowling situating themselves
as the victims. And by the way, and someone made
this point on Twitter, not a single billionaire needs defending, period,
full stop. So that is where we're at. Not very positive,
but I'm here with you all and I feel good.
I was like, you know what, this is what I need? Well,
(12:18):
we're here.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Where we are is that it feels like anti trans
sentiment has gone quite mainstream. And I think about what's
happened in Great Britain with the anti trans movement there,
and I fear that might be happening here. So in
the face of all of that, I think it's important
to push back against the times. It's important to push
(12:42):
back against all of these things. But I think it's like,
how do we then, for us, change the conversation that
is empowering for us, that is instructive for people in
who might be allies to reclaim this space. I think
like they've done such a good job of manufacturing consent
(13:04):
and like having the conversation on their terms. How do
we take that back? I have contended that first of all,
none of this has ever been about the children. They've
been able to use children as you know, as trojan
horse to get all this legislation passed. But it's never
been about children. And I think Oklahoma and all these
other states where they which want to ban gender firming
care for everybody, indicates that. So, like, I feel like
(13:26):
whenever we like have conversations about children, we are conceding
their points when we say it's up for debate, how
young is too young? When it's up for debate, then
we're having the conversation on their terms. Ultimately, it's none
of their business. It's no one's business whether someone adult
or child is seeking gender firming care of any kind.
(13:48):
What do you guys think?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, I agree with you. I mean it is it's
almost mind blowing how they've succeeded, especially considering that they
have the points that they're making. When someone who's at
least in the community and somewhat educated and experienced realizes
that these points are just many of them are ridiculous
and obviously false. It's dizzying them talking about, you know, kids,
(14:11):
and then talking about drag queens, and then talking about
all these different things that are obviously all aimed at
the trans community and eliminating our rights in public spaces.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
In all types of spaces. On one hand, my.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Fear is that if we don't say, no, actually, drag
queens aren't, you know, sexually assaulting children at book readings.
If we don't say that, then it's almost like arguing
their point is conceding it. But then if you don't say,
they're able to manipulate and dominate that space and this
conversation in this realm, this forum, the drag queen conversation forum,
(14:43):
or the children getting surgeries for them, which none of
these things are happening in any reality, but they're able
to like create this venue and then bring us into
it to talk about it. Meanwhile, what they're really doing
in the legislative sessions is passing all of this discrim
natory policy because we're not really that connected and coordinated
(15:04):
as much as they are. And so what I think
we need to do we start the day with living
in our joy, and then we end the day with
living our joy. But in the middle of the day,
we need to get all of the rest of these
trans TikTokers and Grammy Award winning transgender people were making
history to get on board with the conversation. It's not
enough to be like yay, you have ten million followers,
(15:27):
But let's be like yay, let's use this.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
To talk about what they're really really doing to us.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
These people are passing laws and policies that would make
it really difficult for the average person to exist in
their transness, and so we really need to get these
people talking about this and snap into reality it's not
just about their own personal journey.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I think though everyone's not qualified. Like sometimes it's like,
just because you're a public figure in your trans doesn't
mean you're going to have a certain depth. And I
don't want to be elitist about this, but like everyone
is not necessarily qualified to have these conversations, and so
like calling on every public figure who's trans to like,
you know, say something when they really maybe don't have
the depth, then it's I think it's problematic. And I
(16:10):
think a lot of especially young trans people, sometimes just
want to live their lives and like just be themselves
without the burden of like the weight of being trans, right,
the weight of the discrimination, the weight of people's sort
of assumptions and things that they want to put on us.
And so I get that and I want to honor that.
(16:31):
So I hear you, and it's like what conservatives have
done very well, what ters have done very well is
getting everybody on the same page with the language. I
don't know, if there's a memo that goes out, there's
an email, they get on board with a quickness. And
this week when I think your name is doctor Gwendolen
her tape her testimony in Arkansas when the Republican legislator
(16:55):
asked her about her genitalia a doctor as she was testifying,
I wish that she had been like, this is really
dehumanizing and that this is what allows these bills to
be passed, that you don't see us as human beings
deserving of respect. When Matt Walsh was testifying in Tennessee,
when they use language like chemical castration and mutilation, that
that is objectifying and dehumanizing. So there's all of this
(17:19):
very specific language and ways in which they have talked
about us that objectifies us, reduces us to body parts,
and procedures to paint us in the most horrible through
retrograde ways that you can imagine, and then now they're
taking away our rights. There is a correlation between those things.
So like to frame it in a way where we're
(17:41):
like this is a coordinated effort right in the whole
media project from both Turfs and apparently the New York Times,
and you know, right the right wing sort of ecosystem
is to dehumanize us. That leads directly to these anti
trans bills and this legislative assault. This is a good
(18:04):
time to take a little break. We'll be right back though.
All right, we're back, Chase. You are engaged on a
daily basis in finding language to combat this legislation and
(18:26):
these narratives. Is there way that we could be having
these conversations in a different way that focus on our
humanity and don't lean into the language and the terms
that are being set by anti transforces.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Yeah, so I think two main things.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think first, I just go back to the conversation
you had with Katie Kuric in twenty fourteen, Like, on
some level, it's a little bit disheartening that we're still there,
right like that was nine years ago. And the same thing,
the way in which our bodies are being positioned in
the conversation is not progressing. And I think we continue
to see the ways in which our bodies are never
(19:05):
really held.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
With grace and respect and dignity.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
You know, there were the legislators in Arkansas, but I
just came and I testified in Tennessee. I was testifying
about the law about litigation, about my experiences litergating at
the Supreme Court, but I talked about also being trans.
And at the end of my testimony, which was maybe
I was up there for maybe six minutes, the chair
of the committee said, thank you for telling us about
your condition, and.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
I was like, that's what you got out of this,
Like the second you just.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Close your transness, people are just seeing your body and
sexualizing you or trying to understand you through the lens
of a deeply dehumanizing frame. And one of the main
reasons is because our allies haven't shown up. The center left,
the progressives have failed us so tremendously. Then the second
thing I'll say is sort of how we shift what
(19:54):
do we do? I think we need to de exceptionalize
the attacks on tra people, and that is to say,
this is exactly what happened in the Anita Bryan attacks
on gay people, this is exactly what happened in the
abortion context.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And in fact, the human beings doing it are the same.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
The same legislator for example, in Idaho that introduced the
bill and just now that would make taking a miner
out of the state to get an abortion a form
of trafficking was the same person who introduced the anti
transports bill. Unfortunately, the CIS women got on board with
her rhetoric around trans girls in sports while she was
(20:31):
plotting their own destruction to take away their rights in
the context of abortion and reproductive autonomy. So until we
understand that none of this is exceptional and is part
of a very large global project.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
That you know, it's not about trans people.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
On the one hand, it is it's about our bodies
being deeply, deeply dehumanized, and that's allowing this rhetoric to
be pushed forward in state legislatures.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
But the endgame is bigger than us. The connection, I think,
you know, it's so important. This is why we need intersectionality.
I think this is why Ron de Santas does not
want intersectionality taught in Florida, because we need an intersectional
lens to talk about this and the divide and conquer strategy.
It's so I mean, understanding the connection between anti semitism,
(21:14):
anti trans legislation, attacks on bodily autonomy for people who
can get pregnant, racism, all of these things are deeply,
deeply connected. Right when we see black folks who are
anti trans, or when we see women who are anti trans,
it's like the same people who want to take away
(21:35):
trans rights want to take away your rights as well
as a woman as a person of color, it's the
same folks. So it's like this divide and conquer thing
that we really have to like have an understanding of.
I wonder where a class analysis could be positioned in
this in some way as well, because I think that, like,
(21:56):
there are a lot of what I see in left
politics is like there's either race reductionists or class reductionists.
A lot of class reductionists on the left to feel
like and understand that trans issues are a distractionist so
don't even want to go there, right, So I see
a lot of that on the left. I don't know
if you guys agree, but I think that like when
we have leftists to want to kind of have it
(22:19):
be about class and don't understand or want to acknowledge
the ways in which race, gender, abortion rights, reproductive rights,
and trans folks and LGBTQ plus folks become ways in
which working class people become divided, the intersectional piece is missed,
and then we don't have the holistic perspective and conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes completely, I think that that all ties together with
what Chase said about our allies not stepping up, and
this conversation does need to happen, and we need to
Certainly more education needs to happen for our allies and
even within the community, you know, hopefully getting people on board.
But I think that that conversation is taking place on
the internet, taking place on TikTok right now. Unfortunately, these
(23:05):
people identify in the left as progressive think that because
they're able to celebrate a trans person on this TV
show or that TV show, then the war is over
and that the work as an ally it is done.
All I know is I saw somebody on a TV
show last night, and this one girl has billions and
billions of followers and she's getting this award and she's
being cast in this So they got it.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I think that's where the allies are.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So they think that visibility, because trans people are more visible,
that the fight is won. And so we need to
say that this transvisibility, we're experiencing backlash against that visibility.
Right there's an intense organized backlash against all this transvisibility
that we're seeing. That's unprecedented that there is a legislative
(23:48):
backlash against that happening right now. So it's not enough
that trans people are on TV and winning awards and
have millions of followers.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
They're using that some of the folks who are younger
and not engaged or don't seem to be as connected
to this conversation that we're having, this very serious conversation.
I think they also think because I'm visible, we won,
so there's no more work to be done. I'm young,
and I'm out there and just living my life. Is good.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
You mentioned the Katie Kuric interview, which I think definitely
changed the way that journalism, at least for a time period,
covered trans bodies and transistence. Because of you and Carmen's
experience on the Katy kirkshow we were able to move
beyond listening our surgeries.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
But now here we are on TikTok and all.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
These other things with transgender people just listing their surgeries,
ten millions followers, and that's it. They're not talking about
anything else. They're just talking about I'll reveal, and our
allies are certainly thinking it's okay. We're giving them permission
to talk about our bodies because we're not talking about
anything else. Only a few of us who are not
elevated to those same platforms. And so that's why I
think it's very important. Since the conversation is happening on
(24:55):
the Internet. It's not happening on television. Nobody's tuning into
c SPAN. It's happened on your Instagram account today, and
those people who are the most followed I think have
staken this.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, it's deep because because I think it's really different
when a trans person offers up without prompting what their
surgical journey, their medical transition journey, their genital status, if
they want to do that, I think that's really different
than a journalist or reporter or a politician asking us
about that. I think that information can be valuable for
(25:29):
other trans people. I do feel like if you're not
trans and you're like engaging in like how someone is
transitioned medically, and it feels like spectacle, it feels like
I don't know what you're getting out of that. For
other trans people, I get it, but I'm remiss to
like police, how other trans folks want to represent themselves.
I don't know police people's hustles, right, because there's a
(25:51):
hustle involved, and it's like there's a capitalism right speaking intersectionality,
there's capitalism involved in this too. When you are you know,
this is how this person making money. So it gets
really tricky, right, So it's like, but how do we
have a critical relationship to that. How do we say that.
It's one thing for a trans person to document their
transition online for themselves, but it's quite another for someone
(26:15):
who's not trans to bring it up when we've made
it the conversation, it's like, how do you're going to
participate in it?
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Well, but I think it's really complicated and we have to,
to your point, understand the overlay.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
There's like the capitalism of it.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
There's all of the history of policing trans bodies and
overly sexualizing us. So at the end of the day,
our hustles historically have often been in spaces of sexualization
because that's how we are seen. No matter what, every
time I go in to talk about law, I'm still
seen that way. So again we're pushed in these directions
where whatever we do to try to exist in the world,
(26:50):
people are thinking about our genitals. Once you start thinking
about genitals, you're starting to be sexualized. That's just how
it goes. And so I think the overlay is our
hustles end up being in the lens of consumption around
bodies and sex, and that is something that is not necessary.
Like we have agency, and I want to honor our
agency and their constraints that are imposed upon us because
(27:12):
of these systems of violence and impression, many of which
are deeply rooted in historical white supremacy and other forms
of violence and colonialism. So there's that piece of it.
And I think it's really important as we gear up
for a presidential election because we will be told over
and over again that talking about trans people and caring
about trans people is a distraction of from what.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
People actually quote unquote care about.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
And keep in mind, the people introducing trans people into
the conversation are the right, please leave us alone, thank
you in the next presidential election. But we're positive in
this exact way because it's a gateway to this structural
takeover of legislatures, of control of material goods. And so
(27:57):
I think if we get sucked into though. What is
or is not a distraction. It's all connected. Nothing is
a distraction unless we let ourselves be distracted.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Absolutely, because ultimately it's about civil rights. It's ultimately like
for every trans person who's like I don't want to
think about politics, if you live live in Arkansas or Tennessee,
you might wake up and like need to go and
get your hormones and you can't. Like you may need
to go to the doctor and you get you're a
therapist and you can't. I mean, like we're talking about
(28:25):
like the material realities of people's lives around being able
to access care that is being jeopardized right now. DeSantis
in Florida has directed Medicaid to not cover anything trans related. Right,
So this is like all the trans people on Medicaid
in the state of Florida, none of their care can
be covered anymore. I would have been screwed, right, This
(28:46):
is really what we're talking about. So if we can
kind of just make it real, Like, can you talk
Chase too. I know peppermanh you're aware of this. There
are families who are like figuring out how to flee
states that have these laws that criminalize parents who support
their trans kids. Can we I don't know either one.
If you want to speak to that, yeah, I mean,
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
This situation now where we're not going to be able
to sue over every law. That's not going to be
the pathway for a lot of people. But in places
where we are planning litigation, a lot of the families
that we're talking to are like, no, we're not going
to litigate, We're going to leave.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
And that is an awful reality.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Nobody should have to displace their life to get health
care for themselves or their children.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
But to the point.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
About soon people in Arkansas or Texas or Tennessee are
going to wake up and not be able to get
their hormones. We need to also have a real wake
up call here because if we have a Republican president
in twenty twenty four and the Senate flips, nobody's getting
their hormones and nobody's getting abortion.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Johnald Trump in his recent speech that we need to
ban gender or firming care for everybody. This is what
he's running on, right and we're seeing it happen on
a state level. And then oh, I need Estreme for
the rest of my life. And we have a presidential
candidate who could win again saying that we need to
ban on a national level gender affirming care for everybody.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And I think one of the things that's really important
is that what is gender affirming care? Chase really talked
about that saw him do a really wonderful speech and
interview about that that since people get received gender firming
care too, And in that context, gender firming care for
me is now that I, regardless of how someone who's
may agree or disagree with my body, I have breasts.
(30:23):
It's important for me to have breast care and examine myself.
And if I find a lump or something and I
go to have some type of procedure or something with
my doctor, that's also gender affirming care as a trans woman.
And so what is gender affirming care because that spills
beyond just getting hormones and yeah, therapy, that spills beyond
(30:44):
just surgical things, which a lot of people are really
limited in their idea of thinking that that's what it
is to me. Gender firming care is any type of
health care that we receive.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
This is why we have to move away from the
surgery narrative because that still becomes a thing that people
focus on that's all they can think about and are
exit existence is about more than that. Having our gender
affirmed can just be about like having a healthcare professional
affirm our pronouns, having like a teacher, you know, affirm
(31:12):
our pronouns. That's gender affirming care right to acknowledge that
we exist in the genders that we identify as.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And they're trying to take that away, right Like, there's
all sorts of bills across the country that are trying
to allow and in some cases require teachers to use
the wrong pronouns for students. And I think that there
is a way where people just aren't pausing to grasp
what this actually means. And I was talking to a
colleague who's also trans, who was talking about how at
the end of the day, like sometimes it's that one
(31:43):
teacher who saw you in one way, who got you
through high school speak, and we're trying to take those
pathways away. We're taking away sports, We're taking away the
coaches who might mentor people. We're taking away the teachers
who might care for you if your parents don't, even
if your parents do, Like I've been saying this a
lot too as a parent, parental rights doesn't mean having
(32:04):
everyone tell you everything about your kid. I want my
child to have outlets to explore themselves and not fear
that I'm going to be told. I know they know
that they're loved, but sometimes you don't want to talk
to your parents. That's healthy, And I don't want schools
just closing everything that my child says, and the same
way I would't my my child's therapist doing that. This
is not a healthy way to support child and adolescent
(32:25):
development to mandate that everything be reported to parents when
exploration is a beautiful part of adolescence and we need
those outlets and.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
The government is cutting them off.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
And to go back, le learn to your point about
us as trans adults who are just imagining what does
a future look like without our health care? Says people
are the number one consumers of gender affirming health care,
full stop, period. It's just that trans people's gender affirming
health care gets banned. But I was sitting in the
bathroom the other day and I just sort of I'm
deeply compartmentalized doing this work, and I was just sort
of looking at myself and trying to sort of come
(32:56):
into my body and thinking, what would it mean to
take all of the things away.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
I wouldn't be able to do any of the things
that I do without the care that I've received.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
And I want the people who love me in one
way or another to recognize that, like, this is.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Who we are.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I would not be alive if I didn't go to
doctor Rish's office nineteen ninety eight from my first hormone
show in the beginning of my medical transition, I would
not be alive. I would have killed myself because I
couldn't live a lie anymore. I couldn't live in a
way that wasn't consistent with who I was anymore. Wouldn't
(33:35):
I wouldn't be here. And I think that at the
end of the day, this is the project. It is genocide.
It is an attempted genocide. We'll be right back without
(33:57):
further ado. Everything that is being broadcast in this legislation
is that we do not want trans people to exist.
We want to erase them. I'm not comfortable whatever. For
whatever reason, they don't want us to exist anymore, and
they're doing everything they can in a really coordinated way
to make us not exist. And so in the face
(34:18):
of that, what do we do? What do you guys?
Do you know when you need to just feel good
and affirmed and like just feel your joy. What is
bringing your joy right now?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
I think one of the things that is at least
provides me a little bit of solace in the face
of all of this development that's been happening. But I
would like to think that the hearts and minds that
have been changed enough to see us, enough to share
space with us and include us. I hope that that's
going to be everlasting. But you know, like just living
every day in my life and having the people around
(34:52):
me that I love, like people that are your support
circle of earn and being able to create music or
you know, speak to people who follow me and resonate
with my story or some of the things that I've
viewed as personal accomplishments, you know, like I was able
to perform on Broadway, which might seem like something that's
very elite.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yes, but I went to school and paid a.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Lot of money for a degree in musical theater performance
way before I ever thought there'd be a reality that
a trans person would ever be able to be on
Broadway because there weren't any roles written for trans people.
My professors told me so, and so being able to
fulfill that for myself, and then being able to see
the people at the stage door who were touched and
resonated by those things. Those types of things really do
(35:33):
bring me joy, and they can happen even at the
moment where some terrible governor assigning some terrible bill into law.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And that's where allies are so crucially important. The ones
who are going to give us jobs, the ones who
are going to hire us, the ones who are going
to stand up for us and fight for us. It
becomes crucially important. You wouldn't have been on Broadway fit
more for a trans ally chase.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
For me, it's two things.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
One is that I just I similarly am like I'm
just gonna have fun at the end of the day,
Like I'm gonna find ways to decompress, like whether it's
peppermint and I going to diner food and just you know,
talking shit or whatever it is that we do. And
I'm like, I will travel all over the city. I
to go have a mule and sit and.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Just be be how we want to be.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
And I do think for me, being in space with
trans people is essential.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I need that.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And I want to say another point about this, which
is deeply troubling is they'll use our solidarity with and
love for each other as evidence that we're like a contagion,
and it's like, no, we just love each other. The
policing that happens, it's like, oh, there must be sex
workers because they're standing together. It's like they try to
diminish our ability to connect with each other. But it's like, no, never,
That'll always be such a source of joy and comfort
(36:46):
for me. I will never not in these moments just
congregate with trans people because I think the insight that
we have and the self awareness that we have and
the fortitude that we have is just I prefer it.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
And the other reality is that, you know, part.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Of the narrative is that we're miserable, and so you
better believe that I am gonna show up, I am funny,
I am fun and I'm going.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
To bring that energy.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Like it's disarming to people because they have this idea
of trans people like we're walking around like all just
sad all the time, which would be a healthy reaction
to the world we're living in. But we're also really fun.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Recently, I was in LA and there was an episode
of Quantum Leap that was directed by Shaquina and ritten
I believe by Shakin as well, that focused on a
trans story. And there was a bar in La where
they had a screening of it that was filled with
trans people, and it just it had been a minute
since I was just in a room with trans folks
watching an episode of television of network television that focused
(37:45):
on a trans story, and I got my full entire life.
It was everything it was like. So it just filled
me up being surrounded by my people and it was
just so empowering and beauty full and a huge part
of what makes me who I am. It's this experience.
It's also being black, It's also being an artist. It's
(38:07):
also being from the South. It's like so many different things.
And so, yeah, we're not all sad all the time.
We've had moments, right, We've all had moments and we're
going to have moments again. But that's what it means
to be human. Yeah, we're hilarious with us. So can
we talk about some concrete strategies that our allies can
(38:29):
take away today? People who really are well intentioned and
want to help and want to be a part of this,
what can they take away concretely that they can do
to help us in this in this spite for our
civil rights.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I think there's two things that people can do. I
think number one, most people are engaged in some way
in social media, which is where this conversation is taking place,
like we've talked about, and so I do think it's important,
just like we were encouraging our allies to do during
twenty twenty in the conversations that we were having during,
to fill your timeline with queer content creators and people
(39:04):
who are getting straight from the source, not just subjects,
but also the creators and the individuals who do have
platforms and you know, putting out content. Seek them out
so you can get more of this conversation and more
of a sense of who these people are. And the
second thing that I think people can do is, whatever
issues are happening in your very life that are important
(39:26):
to you, let's put an intersectional lens on that. Let's
see if you're getting fired from your job. Let's find
resources and sources that talk about how a black person
would deal with the same situation, or how a trans
person who's of Asian descent would deal with this sort
of thing, And so that you can bring those groups
closer into the issues that you care about in your life.
(39:48):
I think that's two things that people can do like today, Yeah,
just I mean.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
I try to have this conversation a lot with people,
and I think one thing is that people can feel
really overwhelmed by the volume of things coming at them
and the bigness of what it feels like, and so
I like to divide it into parts. One is sort
of the daily life piece. And this is one of
the reasons why, and we talked about this so much
anti trans legislation is able to move is because we've
(40:13):
been able to allow for the demonization of trans people
to occur on every single level. So part of the
activation that needs to happen is people disrupting that demonization
on every level, at your kitchen table, when you're at
the school where your kids go to school, when you're
in line at the grocery store. This is permeating the
ether so much that people just gratuitously will say like, well,
I don't know about those trans kids and sports, and
(40:34):
I don't know about kids making these medical decisions.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
It will come up.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
So be an agent of disruption. So that is number one.
Change the way in which we're talking.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
About number two. And this is what echoes.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Also what Peppermin said is we have to engage on
every level of government. This is about school boards, this
is about DA elections, this is about state and local government,
this is about Congress and the president.
Speaker 5 (40:54):
It's about all of it.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
And so wherever you feel empowered, take action there, pay
at time, and what's happening in your community. There are
three hundred anti trans bills pending right now. That's happening
in the overwhelming majority of states, including states that are
considered progressive. So get involved, get engaged. And you can
do that as well by donating to translad organizations. And
I talk about trans Justice Funding Project because a lot
(41:16):
of people don't know a translate organization, but you can
donate to TRANSSICE funding projects and they will invest in
the translated organizations around the country, and that does make
a difference. So there's the way in which we can
just have these discursive and sort of social engagement changes,
political changes, and then material distribution changes where you're investing
in trans leadership.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
And I think it's important with organizations like trans Justice
Funding Project, they're funding organizations that are helping to get
resources on the ground to trans folks and their families
who need it, who are relocating or do need access
in various ways. So that is a really tangible, important
thing for people to do. So as we kind of
(41:59):
conclude this discussion, right, any final thoughts.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
My final thought is this that we've been having a
lot of harder conversations. We're looking into a very hard
future in terms of the legal and policy landscape. But
to Pepperman's point, the people who love us, the changes
that we've made, that isn't going away. And so as
we move forward into this time, we are going to
have to just show the fuck up for each other.
(42:27):
And that means in spaces where we can decompress, where
we can care for each other, and that means really
finding pathways of solidarity that are meaningful and full and
like I am ready to throw down for everyone, our
freedom is bound up together and I believe that so
fully and completely. In this next period of time, this
(42:48):
next election cycle is going to be brutal, and so
that means finding those spaces to love on each other,
to scheme together to resist the narratives about us, and
also really try to help move more people into a
space of really seeing us in our fullness, because we
need people to go out and marshal in that disruption
(43:08):
of the very insidious narrative about our lives and our bodies.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I'd like to spend more time trying to get people
out of the silos that we're in the activism space,
so that we can have a more intersectional view and
then of course fight because it is going to be
divide and conquer, as you said, and there's no time
like right before a presidential election to get people politically involved. Granted,
(43:37):
as Chase said, there's so many things happening, there's so
many opportunities to sort of reflect on how bad things
can be. But going up into the next year or
two before twenty twenty four, it also is an opportunity
to get people on board and want to have these conversations.
And I'm hopeful that with the smaller portion of the
very small portion of trans people who are out there
(43:58):
having these conversations, I'm very hopeful that we can get
not only our allies on board, but also getting them
to see that if they spend more a few minutes
or a certain amount of time on this transgender piece,
it will eventually spill over into the feminism piece, and
it'll eventually spill over into the race piece, and it'll
spill over into the class piece because they are all
(44:19):
so deeply connected. I'm encouraged personally by that, in addition
to going to the diner with y'all and having some food.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Now, for me, it's a few things I've just I'm
thinking about when these conversations are being had, that we
need to bring on more trans people. It's really interesting
because I've been in this game for a minute. I
remember back in the day when people would talk about
trans issues and I would go on CNN or I
would go on MSNBC, and they would like be like,
we need to have a transperson talk about this. Now
(44:46):
people feel very comfortable like having conversations about trans issues
without a transperson in sight. It blows my mind. And
I don't think it's about just any old transperson. I
think it is about having trans people who have a
depth of knowledge. He does feel e leadists, but a
transperson who's informed and has a sense of the politics
in the community and a historical perspective, et cetera. So
(45:08):
I think, like I would love to just invite the
media to listen to trans people more, to invite more
trans people on have these conversations with us and not
just about us, I think to being aware of what
happens in state legislators and state elections, local elections, school boards.
A lot of what's happening is happening with school boards,
(45:31):
with book banning and the relationship between books being banned
on critical rates theory. You know, I don't like saying
his name, Mister Chris Brusso who came up with putting
critical race theory is like the catch all. He literally said,
we'll make anything that has to do with race and
racial equality, we'll call it critical race theory and make
it like the Boogeyman. He's the same person who's like,
(45:51):
now we're going to do this with trans issues, that
project that he's engaged in, that like the right wing
is engaged in. It's happening and at school boards, happening
all local level, So we have to be mindful of
that and that again, it's all connected. It really is
all connected. So it's like rights can be taken away.
Just because you have your rights now does not mean
you're going to have your rights tomorrow. So we really
(46:13):
are all in this together. And I think the people
who are most sort of anti trans are the loudest
on the Internet, and it gets clicks and it gets viewsed.
But I think when you talk to average Americans, they're
not like that pressed about trands stuff, right. I think
it's like politicians, pundits and a very small group of
(46:36):
people on the internet. So like, if we can find
ways to have conversations with people who might lean in
a different political direction, and it's hard and not demonize
those people. The representatives, the pundits, yeah, I think we
can say things about them, but the people. I think
that people can be reached if we can get to them.
I think a huge part of it is the conversation.
(46:58):
It can't be acceptable anymore to talk about things that
are really none of our business. If you are not trans,
if you're not the parent of a trans person or
a medical professional, it's none of your business. And the
line I think needs to be the government should not
be involved in the healthcare decisions of anybody, period, point blank.
(47:18):
It's not up for I've seen a lot of well
meeting people the age of when people should start this
whateverish No, not by politicians, medical professionals, yes, and medical
professionals have made a lot of decisions and done a
lot of research about that care. Let's leave it to them,
and let's not have the healthcare of trans people up
(47:38):
for debate. When we make it up for public debate,
we're debating the existence of trans people. So what I
believe the talking point should be is that it's none
of your business. I like to end every podcast with
the question, and we've been to talking about this the
(48:00):
whole time, and the question is what else is true?
What are the things that get us through? Even when
things are rough and hard, and they are right now
for trans people? What are the things that get you through?
And we've been talking about this day, maybe there's something
different that you haven't said, Peppermint for you today? What
else is true?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I've been able to work on some very artistically and
creatively fulfilling projects and things that make me feel great,
but then are also connected to some of these issues
that we're talking about, and I just feel so wonderful
to have been included. And I'm hopeful that I can
do my part to help keep a door open.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
And bring everybody else through.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And so that's what's true, is that it's not just
us sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
The only reason that you might think.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
As Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people
are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. It's
not like I've been upset every day when I woke up.
It's that every single time when I read the paper
every morning New York time, I'm putting out some other
story attacking me.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That's what's wrong.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
That's what's true, Chase Darling, for you today.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
What else is true?
Speaker 5 (49:14):
Well, I mean to me, this is it.
Speaker 4 (49:16):
Things can be, however demoralizing, there will always be for me.
And I feel so grateful for this, a moment that
reminds me how happy and lucky I feel to be alive.
And that is a blessing that I take with me.
And it might be just cuddling my cat or cuddling
my kid, or convening with you two.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
What a gift.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
And I am very, very very grateful to be here.
And that is true for me every single day. I
just am really committed to curating spaces of joy in
my life. And I'm forty now and I feel like,
never did I ever imagine that this type of future
for myself.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Oh, I'll join in. What else is true for me
today is love. I'm lucky enough to be like romantically,
deeply in love in a way that I've only dreamed about.
And I love you too, and I have friends who
I love with all my heart and all my soul,
and that love is healing and transformative. I think that
(50:20):
everybody out there, who's you know, using trans people as clickbait,
if you could just get some love in your life,
you know, justice is what love was like in public.
If we could just permeate that. I really believe in that.
What else is true for me is love, Honey, it's love.
(50:42):
Thank you so much, you two, we were all over
the place. I hope that everyone listening will have an
awareness of what's going on, but maybe leave with some
strategies about how we can kind of address and attack this.
And again, I want to remind transfers out there that
we've always found a way to get a hormone. We
(51:03):
always found away. You know, to get is to get
a surgery. Honey, We've found away, darling, look to the transcess.
Just honey. They cannot keep a girl or a boy,
or they cannot keep us away from our mones, honey,
and our procedures. Honey. Where there's a will, there's always
been a way. Okay, Can I get an amen up
(51:25):
in her?
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Amen, honey, Now let the music play.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Love feels like the thing to me that is the
most true right now. And when I am in the
company of Chase and Peppermint, I feel that love. When
I'm in the company of my community, I feel that love,
and it is such a blessing in the face of
the horrific, the catastrophic, and these in so many ways
(52:01):
of catastrophic times for trans people. We have each other.
We have community, We have people who love us. And
if you don't have that community yet, we're out here.
We're waiting for you. We're waiting for you, so come
and find us. The Internet is a great tool to
find that community. We can get through this. We've gone
(52:23):
through difficult times before. Look to our ancestors and our
transistors for guidance. They are here, they are with us always.
That beautiful Maya Angelou quote, I come as one, but
I stand as ten thousand, the connection to an energy
that is bigger than us, to a space that is
bigger than us. And that's why I wanted to have
(52:45):
this conversation with Chase and Peppermint today. They represent from
me the connection to that history, to that present, to
that thing that is deep and true, that transcends all
of the misinformation should in propaganda and hatred towards our community.
Find that community. They're out there and they are waiting
(53:07):
for you, and they need you just as much as
you need them. This episode was recorded back in February
twenty twenty three. There were about three hundred and thirty
anti trans bills in process then. It is now early
July and that number has grown to over five hundred
(53:28):
and fifty bills in forty nine states. So far, eighty
three have passed and one hundred and thirteen have been defeated.
You can also track what's happening at trans Legislation dot
com and as always, see our show notes for more information.
Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
(53:52):
and share with everyone you know. You can find me
on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on
Facebook at Laverne Coo for Real. Until next time, he
stay in the love. The Laverne Clock Show is a
production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more
(54:13):
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's not just us sitting around complaining about some bills.
The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
that we're always miserable, is because people are constantly attacking
us and we're constantly noticing it. It's not like I've
been upset every day when I woke up. It's that
every single time when I read the paper every morning,
New York Times.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
But now some other story attacking me. That's what's wrong.
That's what's true.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My
name is Laverne Cox. As of the day we're recording
this February sixteen, twenty twenty three, over three hundred pieces
of anti trans legislation have been introduced in state legislatures
all over the country. That's since January of this year.
(01:03):
And that legislation targets the ability of trans folks to
access gender affirming care, not only for trans kids, but
for trans adults. And a huge reason why this lesstulation
has been so successful is that the conversation with and
about trans people has been captured by folks who don't
(01:25):
want trans people to exist. I feel like a huge
part of my work in the media since I've become
a public figure, has been about changing the conversation that
we have with and about trans people away from surgery
and transition and towards our humanity. So today we need
(01:46):
to have a conversation about reclaiming the narrative with and
about trans people from the perspective of trans humanity, from
a perspective that trans people have a right to exist
in the world on our own terms and have bodily autonomy.
So to have this discussion today, I've invited two of
my dearest friends, Chase Strangio. Chase is Deputy Director of
(02:11):
Transgender Justice with the ACLUS LGBT and HIV Project and
a nationally recognized expert on transgender rights. In addition to
his litigation work, Chase leads the ACLU's advocacy to defeat
anti trans laws and state legislatures. Chase has appeared on
Rachel Maddow, MSNBC, CNN, PBS News Hour, and many more.
(02:33):
In twenty twenty, he was included in Time Magazine's list
of the one hundred most influential people in the World.
Miss Peppermint is the ACLU's first ever Artist Ambassador for
Trans Justice. She is an actress and singer with six
albums to her credit and many many Glad Award nominations.
(02:54):
She was the runner up in season nine of RuPaul's
Drag Race as the first out trans contestant to be cast,
and made history as the first trans woman to originate
a principal role on Broadway in twenty eighteen for the
show Head Over Heels. Some of her most recent work
It's Hulse rom com Fire Island, and Netflix's Survival of
(03:16):
the Thickest. Please enjoy my conversation with Chase Strangio and
with Miss Peppermint. Hello, Chase and Peppermint, Welcome to the podcast.
How are you feeling today? Peppermint? How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Happy to be with you here today? And Chase?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
In spite of all of the weeks and years and months,
and it feels like millennia of bad news that seems
to come down the pipeline attacking our community, but I'm great.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Chase Darling, how are you today? I am?
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Here's what Will said when I woke up, I was
not feeling today, and then I was like, you know what.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I'm talking to Laverne and Peppermint later and that is
going to be my boost.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
And so I am feeling the energetic boost just sharing
this virtual space with you both.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I already like feel my heart rate going down.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I feel more at ease because I needed this, So
I feel great.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Thank you for that, Chase. I want to start off
by saying that I want to have a conversation about
how we change the conversation around how we talk with
and about trans people. Last season on this podcast, Chase
and I had a conversation where we delved very deeply
into the very specific right wing propaganda. We listened to clips,
(04:44):
we discussed, and I left that podcast re traumatized. I
don't know if I told you this, Chase. I went
and cried after you left. I cried for like twenty minutes,
and I was like, no one's going to hear this.
The people who need to hear it aren't this. I
just reached aumatize myself for no reason, and I don't
want today's podcast to be that way. I often watch
(05:05):
the news and watch stories, watch hearings, clips from hearings,
and just feel defeated and victimized and traumatized, and I
don't want us to leave here today with that feeling.
I want us to leave here empowered, acknowledging the attempts
(05:26):
of legislative genocide that's happening against our community, be truthful
about that. But I want to come away feeling empowered
and not like victimized and exhausted from this. I want
this to be invigorating for us and for our community,
and I want to try to model a way to
have this conversation on our terms and not theirs. All
this fucked up shit is happening, but like, we must
(05:51):
not lose our hope, our sense of like ourselves. And
I think too, this is the lesson I'll say, and
I'll let you guys come in. I think that, like
what happens when I watch these hearings, when I watch
this propaganda, is that all of my own the things
I've internalized it by myself as a transperson, come up again.
(06:12):
That like, we are raised in the same society that
like treats us and sees us as less than as
somehow fraudulent, and then we see these stories and see
this legislation, and it brings up all that stuff again,
and so we have to like talk about our trauma,
acknowledge it and not be allowed to be taken back
(06:33):
into that traumatizing space. We have to be able to
be present with like the beauty of who we are,
with the humanity of who we are, and again not
see ourselves through their lens and their terms, but on
our terms. Do you feel me?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, speaking from my own perspective, that balance of needing
to and being able to experience a sense of joy
and life living just my truth and my life and
in my authenticity as a trans woman, as a black
trans woman, as a person of many identities, intersectional existence
(07:11):
that occurred to me through performing in Drag When I
was doing my show, and I knew that people wanted
to hear a remix and do a dance move and
all these things, which is why they came to the
Gay Bar to see my show.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But then I also it was really important for me.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
To advocate on behalf of our community with whatever issues
were going on at the time. I was really heavily
involved in AIDS and HIV education and prevention, and so
I would do sort of activations at my show, and
you know, I thought to myself, is this really my place?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
To do this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I'm not some like professional advocate or anything, but I
know that I come from a long line of people
in our community that we live fabulously every single day
while we are performing everyday activism, and so I think
having that balance, like you said, is really important. I
guess the key is, too, like you said, leave at
(07:59):
the end of the day with a sense of joy
and knowing that we can withstand anything that we will
eventually overcome.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Without sounding too cliche, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Chase, And for you, you are quite literally in the fight.
You're fighting me these bills in court every single day.
This is like your whole life, and I can only
imagine how overwhelming it is. At this point, about three
hundred pieces of anti trans legislation have been introduced in
(08:33):
state legislatures all over the country. This is the most
that we've ever seen, Is that, correct, Chase? Can you
just give us a rundown of where we are legislatively?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:45):
So it's so bad.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I almost don't even know where to begin, and so
much of my life is now consumed with both fighting
the bills legislatively, preparing to litigate in court. But I
think perhaps the most challenging part is sort of talking
to people about the limits on what we can do
in those spaces. We simply are not beating them legislatively.
We're losing in so many of the bills are passing
(09:09):
so separate and apart from the three hundred number, which
is staggering in a sign of just how gratuitous it
has all become more concerning is the fact that this
is quite literally the number one priority for Republican led
legislatures across the country. Hearings are being had day one,
bills are being passed within a week. We are in
a situation and it's truly horrifying, and I have to say,
(09:32):
as a relatively cynical person, even I didn't think it
would get this bad so quickly. Where we could leave
twenty twenty three legislative sessions with fifteen states banning gender
affirming care for adolescences, and some of those quite frankly,
could be banning them for adults.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
That is where we're at, And then.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
We are preparing to litigate, but we are litigating in
stacked courts where I simply have to tell people that
we will likely not win. So what that means is
going back to your original point, is we are just
gonna have to find the joy in the process. In
our existence. I'm not looking to the government to give
me my joy. I'm not looking to the government to
(10:09):
validate my existence. I find that within myself and in community.
That's why when I woke up this morning and I
was like, already I was in a bad mood. Then
there was the defense of jk Rowling piece in the
New York Times. I was like, is this the onion
number two?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
And then I was like, you know what, I wait,
gonna talk to la Verne.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And pup be kind rewind. This morning there was a
defense of jk Rowling. And I don't like to say
her name, but like, let's we'll say her name today.
There's a defense of jk Rowling the New York Times
this morning.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Like as of this recording, you mean in the heels
of yesterday or two days ago.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Oh, let's just let me take you all on a journey,
a twenty four hour journey, which is yesterday. You have
two letters that go to The New York Times. One
is from contributors to The New York Times speaking about
the very significant flaws of the coverage of trans people
in the New York Times. Which, by the way, I've
been writing about since twenty sixteen. Number two, there's a
letter that's led by Glad with sign on signatories from
(11:05):
organizations critiquing The New York Times for the incredibly biased
coverage of trans people. The New York Times issues the
most defensive response that's like basically a slap in the
face of trans people and combines the two letters that
basically says, you are advocates, we're real journalists, we are
proud of our coverage. We have a huge amount of
sensitivity to trans people. By the way, this is from
(11:26):
their communications person who like used to work for the
CIA or something, which is very on brand and not surprising.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
I kid you not.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
We wake up this morning and Pamela Paul has written
a op ed that is titled in Defense of JK.
Rowling that is just the most transphobic piece you've ever seen.
And I saw the image and I thought it was
the onion because it was too ridiculous to be believed
to be true. So we have states trying to criminalize
us for going to the bathroom, states banning our healthcare,
(11:56):
we have courts doing what they're doing, and then we
have Miss Pamela Paul and j ak Rowling situating themselves
as the victims. And by the way, and someone made
this point on Twitter, not a single billionaire needs defending, period,
full stop. So that is where we're at. Not very positive,
but I'm here with you all and I feel good.
I was like, you know what, this is what I need? Well,
(12:18):
we're here.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Where we are is that it feels like anti trans
sentiment has gone quite mainstream. And I think about what's
happened in Great Britain with the anti trans movement there,
and I fear that might be happening here. So in
the face of all of that, I think it's important
to push back against the times. It's important to push
(12:42):
back against all of these things. But I think it's like,
how do we then, for us, change the conversation that
is empowering for us, that is instructive for people in
who might be allies to reclaim this space. I think
like they've done such a good job of manufacturing consent
(13:04):
and like having the conversation on their terms. How do
we take that back? I have contended that first of all,
none of this has ever been about the children. They've
been able to use children as you know, as trojan
horse to get all this legislation passed. But it's never
been about children. And I think Oklahoma and all these
other states where they which want to ban gender firming
care for everybody, indicates that. So, like, I feel like
(13:26):
whenever we like have conversations about children, we are conceding
their points when we say it's up for debate, how
young is too young? When it's up for debate, then
we're having the conversation on their terms. Ultimately, it's none
of their business. It's no one's business whether someone adult
or child is seeking gender firming care of any kind.
(13:48):
What do you guys think?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, I agree with you. I mean it is it's
almost mind blowing how they've succeeded, especially considering that they
have the points that they're making. When someone who's at
least in the community and somewhat educated and experienced realizes
that these points are just many of them are ridiculous
and obviously false. It's dizzying them talking about, you know, kids,
(14:11):
and then talking about drag queens, and then talking about
all these different things that are obviously all aimed at
the trans community and eliminating our rights in public spaces.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
In all types of spaces. On one hand, my.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Fear is that if we don't say, no, actually, drag
queens aren't, you know, sexually assaulting children at book readings.
If we don't say that, then it's almost like arguing
their point is conceding it. But then if you don't say,
they're able to manipulate and dominate that space and this
conversation in this realm, this forum, the drag queen conversation forum,
(14:43):
or the children getting surgeries for them, which none of
these things are happening in any reality, but they're able
to like create this venue and then bring us into
it to talk about it. Meanwhile, what they're really doing
in the legislative sessions is passing all of this discrim
natory policy because we're not really that connected and coordinated
(15:04):
as much as they are. And so what I think
we need to do we start the day with living
in our joy, and then we end the day with
living our joy. But in the middle of the day,
we need to get all of the rest of these
trans TikTokers and Grammy Award winning transgender people were making
history to get on board with the conversation. It's not
enough to be like yay, you have ten million followers,
(15:27):
But let's be like yay, let's use this.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
To talk about what they're really really doing to us.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
These people are passing laws and policies that would make
it really difficult for the average person to exist in
their transness, and so we really need to get these
people talking about this and snap into reality it's not
just about their own personal journey.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I think though everyone's not qualified. Like sometimes it's like,
just because you're a public figure in your trans doesn't
mean you're going to have a certain depth. And I
don't want to be elitist about this, but like everyone
is not necessarily qualified to have these conversations, and so
like calling on every public figure who's trans to like,
you know, say something when they really maybe don't have
the depth, then it's I think it's problematic. And I
(16:10):
think a lot of especially young trans people, sometimes just
want to live their lives and like just be themselves
without the burden of like the weight of being trans, right,
the weight of the discrimination, the weight of people's sort
of assumptions and things that they want to put on us.
And so I get that and I want to honor that.
(16:31):
So I hear you, and it's like what conservatives have
done very well, what ters have done very well is
getting everybody on the same page with the language. I
don't know, if there's a memo that goes out, there's
an email, they get on board with a quickness. And
this week when I think your name is doctor Gwendolen
her tape her testimony in Arkansas when the Republican legislator
(16:55):
asked her about her genitalia a doctor as she was testifying,
I wish that she had been like, this is really
dehumanizing and that this is what allows these bills to
be passed, that you don't see us as human beings
deserving of respect. When Matt Walsh was testifying in Tennessee,
when they use language like chemical castration and mutilation, that
that is objectifying and dehumanizing. So there's all of this
(17:19):
very specific language and ways in which they have talked
about us that objectifies us, reduces us to body parts,
and procedures to paint us in the most horrible through
retrograde ways that you can imagine, and then now they're
taking away our rights. There is a correlation between those things.
So like to frame it in a way where we're
(17:41):
like this is a coordinated effort right in the whole
media project from both Turfs and apparently the New York Times,
and you know, right the right wing sort of ecosystem
is to dehumanize us. That leads directly to these anti
trans bills and this legislative assault. This is a good
(18:04):
time to take a little break. We'll be right back though.
All right, we're back, Chase. You are engaged on a
daily basis in finding language to combat this legislation and
(18:26):
these narratives. Is there way that we could be having
these conversations in a different way that focus on our
humanity and don't lean into the language and the terms
that are being set by anti transforces.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Yeah, so I think two main things.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think first, I just go back to the conversation
you had with Katie Kuric in twenty fourteen, Like, on
some level, it's a little bit disheartening that we're still there,
right like that was nine years ago. And the same thing,
the way in which our bodies are being positioned in
the conversation is not progressing. And I think we continue
to see the ways in which our bodies are never
(19:05):
really held.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
With grace and respect and dignity.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
You know, there were the legislators in Arkansas, but I
just came and I testified in Tennessee. I was testifying
about the law about litigation, about my experiences litergating at
the Supreme Court, but I talked about also being trans.
And at the end of my testimony, which was maybe
I was up there for maybe six minutes, the chair
of the committee said, thank you for telling us about
your condition, and.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
I was like, that's what you got out of this,
Like the second you just.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Close your transness, people are just seeing your body and
sexualizing you or trying to understand you through the lens
of a deeply dehumanizing frame. And one of the main
reasons is because our allies haven't shown up. The center left,
the progressives have failed us so tremendously. Then the second
thing I'll say is sort of how we shift what
(19:54):
do we do? I think we need to de exceptionalize
the attacks on tra people, and that is to say,
this is exactly what happened in the Anita Bryan attacks
on gay people, this is exactly what happened in the
abortion context.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And in fact, the human beings doing it are the same.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
The same legislator for example, in Idaho that introduced the
bill and just now that would make taking a miner
out of the state to get an abortion a form
of trafficking was the same person who introduced the anti
transports bill. Unfortunately, the CIS women got on board with
her rhetoric around trans girls in sports while she was
(20:31):
plotting their own destruction to take away their rights in
the context of abortion and reproductive autonomy. So until we
understand that none of this is exceptional and is part
of a very large global project.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
That you know, it's not about trans people.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
On the one hand, it is it's about our bodies
being deeply, deeply dehumanized, and that's allowing this rhetoric to
be pushed forward in state legislatures.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
But the endgame is bigger than us. The connection, I think,
you know, it's so important. This is why we need intersectionality.
I think this is why Ron de Santas does not
want intersectionality taught in Florida, because we need an intersectional
lens to talk about this and the divide and conquer strategy.
It's so I mean, understanding the connection between anti semitism,
(21:14):
anti trans legislation, attacks on bodily autonomy for people who
can get pregnant, racism, all of these things are deeply,
deeply connected. Right when we see black folks who are
anti trans, or when we see women who are anti trans,
it's like the same people who want to take away
(21:35):
trans rights want to take away your rights as well
as a woman as a person of color, it's the
same folks. So it's like this divide and conquer thing
that we really have to like have an understanding of.
I wonder where a class analysis could be positioned in
this in some way as well, because I think that, like,
(21:56):
there are a lot of what I see in left
politics is like there's either race reductionists or class reductionists.
A lot of class reductionists on the left to feel
like and understand that trans issues are a distractionist so
don't even want to go there, right, So I see
a lot of that on the left. I don't know
if you guys agree, but I think that like when
we have leftists to want to kind of have it
(22:19):
be about class and don't understand or want to acknowledge
the ways in which race, gender, abortion rights, reproductive rights,
and trans folks and LGBTQ plus folks become ways in
which working class people become divided, the intersectional piece is missed,
and then we don't have the holistic perspective and conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes completely, I think that that all ties together with
what Chase said about our allies not stepping up, and
this conversation does need to happen, and we need to
Certainly more education needs to happen for our allies and
even within the community, you know, hopefully getting people on board.
But I think that that conversation is taking place on
the internet, taking place on TikTok right now. Unfortunately, these
(23:05):
people identify in the left as progressive think that because
they're able to celebrate a trans person on this TV
show or that TV show, then the war is over
and that the work as an ally it is done.
All I know is I saw somebody on a TV
show last night, and this one girl has billions and
billions of followers and she's getting this award and she's
being cast in this So they got it.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I think that's where the allies are.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So they think that visibility, because trans people are more visible,
that the fight is won. And so we need to
say that this transvisibility, we're experiencing backlash against that visibility.
Right there's an intense organized backlash against all this transvisibility
that we're seeing. That's unprecedented that there is a legislative
(23:48):
backlash against that happening right now. So it's not enough
that trans people are on TV and winning awards and
have millions of followers.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
They're using that some of the folks who are younger
and not engaged or don't seem to be as connected
to this conversation that we're having, this very serious conversation.
I think they also think because I'm visible, we won,
so there's no more work to be done. I'm young,
and I'm out there and just living my life. Is good.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
You mentioned the Katie Kuric interview, which I think definitely
changed the way that journalism, at least for a time period,
covered trans bodies and transistence. Because of you and Carmen's
experience on the Katy kirkshow we were able to move
beyond listening our surgeries.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
But now here we are on TikTok and all.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
These other things with transgender people just listing their surgeries,
ten millions followers, and that's it. They're not talking about
anything else. They're just talking about I'll reveal, and our
allies are certainly thinking it's okay. We're giving them permission
to talk about our bodies because we're not talking about
anything else. Only a few of us who are not
elevated to those same platforms. And so that's why I
think it's very important. Since the conversation is happening on
(24:55):
the Internet. It's not happening on television. Nobody's tuning into
c SPAN. It's happened on your Instagram account today, and
those people who are the most followed I think have
staken this.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, it's deep because because I think it's really different
when a trans person offers up without prompting what their
surgical journey, their medical transition journey, their genital status, if
they want to do that, I think that's really different
than a journalist or reporter or a politician asking us
about that. I think that information can be valuable for
(25:29):
other trans people. I do feel like if you're not
trans and you're like engaging in like how someone is
transitioned medically, and it feels like spectacle, it feels like
I don't know what you're getting out of that. For
other trans people, I get it, but I'm remiss to
like police, how other trans folks want to represent themselves.
I don't know police people's hustles, right, because there's a
(25:51):
hustle involved, and it's like there's a capitalism right speaking intersectionality,
there's capitalism involved in this too. When you are you know,
this is how this person making money. So it gets
really tricky, right, So it's like, but how do we
have a critical relationship to that. How do we say that.
It's one thing for a trans person to document their
transition online for themselves, but it's quite another for someone
(26:15):
who's not trans to bring it up when we've made
it the conversation, it's like, how do you're going to
participate in it?
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Well, but I think it's really complicated and we have to,
to your point, understand the overlay.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
There's like the capitalism of it.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
There's all of the history of policing trans bodies and
overly sexualizing us. So at the end of the day,
our hustles historically have often been in spaces of sexualization
because that's how we are seen. No matter what, every
time I go in to talk about law, I'm still
seen that way. So again we're pushed in these directions
where whatever we do to try to exist in the world,
(26:50):
people are thinking about our genitals. Once you start thinking
about genitals, you're starting to be sexualized. That's just how
it goes. And so I think the overlay is our
hustles end up being in the lens of consumption around
bodies and sex, and that is something that is not necessary.
Like we have agency, and I want to honor our
agency and their constraints that are imposed upon us because
(27:12):
of these systems of violence and impression, many of which
are deeply rooted in historical white supremacy and other forms
of violence and colonialism. So there's that piece of it.
And I think it's really important as we gear up
for a presidential election because we will be told over
and over again that talking about trans people and caring
about trans people is a distraction of from what.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
People actually quote unquote care about.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
And keep in mind, the people introducing trans people into
the conversation are the right, please leave us alone, thank
you in the next presidential election. But we're positive in
this exact way because it's a gateway to this structural
takeover of legislatures, of control of material goods. And so
(27:57):
I think if we get sucked into though. What is
or is not a distraction. It's all connected. Nothing is
a distraction unless we let ourselves be distracted.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Absolutely, because ultimately it's about civil rights. It's ultimately like
for every trans person who's like I don't want to
think about politics, if you live live in Arkansas or Tennessee,
you might wake up and like need to go and
get your hormones and you can't. Like you may need
to go to the doctor and you get you're a
therapist and you can't. I mean, like we're talking about
(28:25):
like the material realities of people's lives around being able
to access care that is being jeopardized right now. DeSantis
in Florida has directed Medicaid to not cover anything trans related. Right,
So this is like all the trans people on Medicaid
in the state of Florida, none of their care can
be covered anymore. I would have been screwed, right, This
(28:46):
is really what we're talking about. So if we can
kind of just make it real, Like, can you talk
Chase too. I know peppermanh you're aware of this. There
are families who are like figuring out how to flee
states that have these laws that criminalize parents who support
their trans kids. Can we I don't know either one.
If you want to speak to that, yeah, I mean,
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
This situation now where we're not going to be able
to sue over every law. That's not going to be
the pathway for a lot of people. But in places
where we are planning litigation, a lot of the families
that we're talking to are like, no, we're not going
to litigate, We're going to leave.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
And that is an awful reality.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Nobody should have to displace their life to get health
care for themselves or their children.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
But to the point.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
About soon people in Arkansas or Texas or Tennessee are
going to wake up and not be able to get
their hormones. We need to also have a real wake
up call here because if we have a Republican president
in twenty twenty four and the Senate flips, nobody's getting
their hormones and nobody's getting abortion.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Johnald Trump in his recent speech that we need to
ban gender or firming care for everybody. This is what
he's running on, right and we're seeing it happen on
a state level. And then oh, I need Estreme for
the rest of my life. And we have a presidential
candidate who could win again saying that we need to
ban on a national level gender affirming care for everybody.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And I think one of the things that's really important
is that what is gender affirming care? Chase really talked
about that saw him do a really wonderful speech and
interview about that that since people get received gender firming
care too, And in that context, gender firming care for
me is now that I, regardless of how someone who's
may agree or disagree with my body, I have breasts.
(30:23):
It's important for me to have breast care and examine myself.
And if I find a lump or something and I
go to have some type of procedure or something with
my doctor, that's also gender affirming care as a trans woman.
And so what is gender affirming care because that spills
beyond just getting hormones and yeah, therapy, that spills beyond
(30:44):
just surgical things, which a lot of people are really
limited in their idea of thinking that that's what it
is to me. Gender firming care is any type of
health care that we receive.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
This is why we have to move away from the
surgery narrative because that still becomes a thing that people
focus on that's all they can think about and are
exit existence is about more than that. Having our gender
affirmed can just be about like having a healthcare professional
affirm our pronouns, having like a teacher, you know, affirm
(31:12):
our pronouns. That's gender affirming care right to acknowledge that
we exist in the genders that we identify as.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And they're trying to take that away, right Like, there's
all sorts of bills across the country that are trying
to allow and in some cases require teachers to use
the wrong pronouns for students. And I think that there
is a way where people just aren't pausing to grasp
what this actually means. And I was talking to a
colleague who's also trans, who was talking about how at
the end of the day, like sometimes it's that one
(31:43):
teacher who saw you in one way, who got you
through high school speak, and we're trying to take those
pathways away. We're taking away sports, We're taking away the
coaches who might mentor people. We're taking away the teachers
who might care for you if your parents don't, even
if your parents do, Like I've been saying this a
lot too as a parent, parental rights doesn't mean having
(32:04):
everyone tell you everything about your kid. I want my
child to have outlets to explore themselves and not fear
that I'm going to be told. I know they know
that they're loved, but sometimes you don't want to talk
to your parents. That's healthy, And I don't want schools
just closing everything that my child says, and the same
way I would't my my child's therapist doing that. This
is not a healthy way to support child and adolescent
(32:25):
development to mandate that everything be reported to parents when
exploration is a beautiful part of adolescence and we need
those outlets and.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
The government is cutting them off.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
And to go back, le learn to your point about
us as trans adults who are just imagining what does
a future look like without our health care? Says people
are the number one consumers of gender affirming health care,
full stop, period. It's just that trans people's gender affirming
health care gets banned. But I was sitting in the
bathroom the other day and I just sort of I'm
deeply compartmentalized doing this work, and I was just sort
of looking at myself and trying to sort of come
(32:56):
into my body and thinking, what would it mean to
take all of the things away.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
I wouldn't be able to do any of the things
that I do without the care that I've received.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
And I want the people who love me in one
way or another to recognize that, like, this is.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Who we are.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I would not be alive if I didn't go to
doctor Rish's office nineteen ninety eight from my first hormone
show in the beginning of my medical transition, I would
not be alive. I would have killed myself because I
couldn't live a lie anymore. I couldn't live in a
way that wasn't consistent with who I was anymore. Wouldn't
(33:35):
I wouldn't be here. And I think that at the
end of the day, this is the project. It is genocide.
It is an attempted genocide. We'll be right back without
(33:57):
further ado. Everything that is being broadcast in this legislation
is that we do not want trans people to exist.
We want to erase them. I'm not comfortable whatever. For
whatever reason, they don't want us to exist anymore, and
they're doing everything they can in a really coordinated way
to make us not exist. And so in the face
(34:18):
of that, what do we do? What do you guys?
Do you know when you need to just feel good
and affirmed and like just feel your joy. What is
bringing your joy right now?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
I think one of the things that is at least
provides me a little bit of solace in the face
of all of this development that's been happening. But I
would like to think that the hearts and minds that
have been changed enough to see us, enough to share
space with us and include us. I hope that that's
going to be everlasting. But you know, like just living
every day in my life and having the people around
(34:52):
me that I love, like people that are your support
circle of earn and being able to create music or
you know, speak to people who follow me and resonate
with my story or some of the things that I've
viewed as personal accomplishments, you know, like I was able
to perform on Broadway, which might seem like something that's
very elite.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yes, but I went to school and paid a.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Lot of money for a degree in musical theater performance
way before I ever thought there'd be a reality that
a trans person would ever be able to be on
Broadway because there weren't any roles written for trans people.
My professors told me so, and so being able to
fulfill that for myself, and then being able to see
the people at the stage door who were touched and
resonated by those things. Those types of things really do
(35:33):
bring me joy, and they can happen even at the
moment where some terrible governor assigning some terrible bill into law.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And that's where allies are so crucially important. The ones
who are going to give us jobs, the ones who
are going to hire us, the ones who are going
to stand up for us and fight for us. It
becomes crucially important. You wouldn't have been on Broadway fit
more for a trans ally chase.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
For me, it's two things.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
One is that I just I similarly am like I'm
just gonna have fun at the end of the day,
Like I'm gonna find ways to decompress, like whether it's
peppermint and I going to diner food and just you know,
talking shit or whatever it is that we do. And
I'm like, I will travel all over the city. I
to go have a mule and sit and.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Just be be how we want to be.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
And I do think for me, being in space with
trans people is essential.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I need that.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And I want to say another point about this, which
is deeply troubling is they'll use our solidarity with and
love for each other as evidence that we're like a contagion,
and it's like, no, we just love each other. The
policing that happens, it's like, oh, there must be sex
workers because they're standing together. It's like they try to
diminish our ability to connect with each other. But it's like, no, never,
That'll always be such a source of joy and comfort
(36:46):
for me. I will never not in these moments just
congregate with trans people because I think the insight that
we have and the self awareness that we have and
the fortitude that we have is just I prefer it.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
And the other reality is that, you know, part.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Of the narrative is that we're miserable, and so you
better believe that I am gonna show up, I am funny,
I am fun and I'm going.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
To bring that energy.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Like it's disarming to people because they have this idea
of trans people like we're walking around like all just
sad all the time, which would be a healthy reaction
to the world we're living in. But we're also really fun.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Recently, I was in LA and there was an episode
of Quantum Leap that was directed by Shaquina and ritten
I believe by Shakin as well, that focused on a
trans story. And there was a bar in La where
they had a screening of it that was filled with
trans people, and it just it had been a minute
since I was just in a room with trans folks
watching an episode of television of network television that focused
(37:45):
on a trans story, and I got my full entire life.
It was everything it was like. So it just filled
me up being surrounded by my people and it was
just so empowering and beauty full and a huge part
of what makes me who I am. It's this experience.
It's also being black, It's also being an artist. It's
(38:07):
also being from the South. It's like so many different things.
And so, yeah, we're not all sad all the time.
We've had moments, right, We've all had moments and we're
going to have moments again. But that's what it means
to be human. Yeah, we're hilarious with us. So can
we talk about some concrete strategies that our allies can
(38:29):
take away today? People who really are well intentioned and
want to help and want to be a part of this,
what can they take away concretely that they can do
to help us in this in this spite for our
civil rights.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I think there's two things that people can do. I
think number one, most people are engaged in some way
in social media, which is where this conversation is taking place,
like we've talked about, and so I do think it's important,
just like we were encouraging our allies to do during
twenty twenty in the conversations that we were having during,
to fill your timeline with queer content creators and people
(39:04):
who are getting straight from the source, not just subjects,
but also the creators and the individuals who do have
platforms and you know, putting out content. Seek them out
so you can get more of this conversation and more
of a sense of who these people are. And the
second thing that I think people can do is, whatever
issues are happening in your very life that are important
(39:26):
to you, let's put an intersectional lens on that. Let's
see if you're getting fired from your job. Let's find
resources and sources that talk about how a black person
would deal with the same situation, or how a trans
person who's of Asian descent would deal with this sort
of thing, And so that you can bring those groups
closer into the issues that you care about in your life.
(39:48):
I think that's two things that people can do like today, Yeah,
just I mean.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
I try to have this conversation a lot with people,
and I think one thing is that people can feel
really overwhelmed by the volume of things coming at them
and the bigness of what it feels like, and so
I like to divide it into parts. One is sort
of the daily life piece. And this is one of
the reasons why, and we talked about this so much
anti trans legislation is able to move is because we've
(40:13):
been able to allow for the demonization of trans people
to occur on every single level. So part of the
activation that needs to happen is people disrupting that demonization
on every level, at your kitchen table, when you're at
the school where your kids go to school, when you're
in line at the grocery store. This is permeating the
ether so much that people just gratuitously will say like, well,
I don't know about those trans kids and sports, and
(40:34):
I don't know about kids making these medical decisions.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
It will come up.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
So be an agent of disruption. So that is number one.
Change the way in which we're talking.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
About number two. And this is what echoes.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Also what Peppermin said is we have to engage on
every level of government. This is about school boards, this
is about DA elections, this is about state and local government,
this is about Congress and the president.
Speaker 5 (40:54):
It's about all of it.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
And so wherever you feel empowered, take action there, pay
at time, and what's happening in your community. There are
three hundred anti trans bills pending right now. That's happening
in the overwhelming majority of states, including states that are
considered progressive. So get involved, get engaged. And you can
do that as well by donating to translad organizations. And
I talk about trans Justice Funding Project because a lot
(41:16):
of people don't know a translate organization, but you can
donate to TRANSSICE funding projects and they will invest in
the translated organizations around the country, and that does make
a difference. So there's the way in which we can
just have these discursive and sort of social engagement changes,
political changes, and then material distribution changes where you're investing
in trans leadership.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
And I think it's important with organizations like trans Justice
Funding Project, they're funding organizations that are helping to get
resources on the ground to trans folks and their families
who need it, who are relocating or do need access
in various ways. So that is a really tangible, important
thing for people to do. So as we kind of
(41:59):
conclude this discussion, right, any final thoughts.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
My final thought is this that we've been having a
lot of harder conversations. We're looking into a very hard
future in terms of the legal and policy landscape. But
to Pepperman's point, the people who love us, the changes
that we've made, that isn't going away. And so as
we move forward into this time, we are going to
have to just show the fuck up for each other.
(42:27):
And that means in spaces where we can decompress, where
we can care for each other, and that means really
finding pathways of solidarity that are meaningful and full and
like I am ready to throw down for everyone, our
freedom is bound up together and I believe that so
fully and completely. In this next period of time, this
(42:48):
next election cycle is going to be brutal, and so
that means finding those spaces to love on each other,
to scheme together to resist the narratives about us, and
also really try to help move more people into a
space of really seeing us in our fullness, because we
need people to go out and marshal in that disruption
(43:08):
of the very insidious narrative about our lives and our bodies.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I'd like to spend more time trying to get people
out of the silos that we're in the activism space,
so that we can have a more intersectional view and
then of course fight because it is going to be
divide and conquer, as you said, and there's no time
like right before a presidential election to get people politically involved. Granted,
(43:37):
as Chase said, there's so many things happening, there's so
many opportunities to sort of reflect on how bad things
can be. But going up into the next year or
two before twenty twenty four, it also is an opportunity
to get people on board and want to have these conversations.
And I'm hopeful that with the smaller portion of the
very small portion of trans people who are out there
(43:58):
having these conversations, I'm very hopeful that we can get
not only our allies on board, but also getting them
to see that if they spend more a few minutes
or a certain amount of time on this transgender piece,
it will eventually spill over into the feminism piece, and
it'll eventually spill over into the race piece, and it'll
spill over into the class piece because they are all
(44:19):
so deeply connected. I'm encouraged personally by that, in addition
to going to the diner with y'all and having some food.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Now, for me, it's a few things I've just I'm
thinking about when these conversations are being had, that we
need to bring on more trans people. It's really interesting
because I've been in this game for a minute. I
remember back in the day when people would talk about
trans issues and I would go on CNN or I
would go on MSNBC, and they would like be like,
we need to have a transperson talk about this. Now
(44:46):
people feel very comfortable like having conversations about trans issues
without a transperson in sight. It blows my mind. And
I don't think it's about just any old transperson. I
think it is about having trans people who have a
depth of knowledge. He does feel e leadists, but a
transperson who's informed and has a sense of the politics
in the community and a historical perspective, et cetera. So
(45:08):
I think, like I would love to just invite the
media to listen to trans people more, to invite more
trans people on have these conversations with us and not
just about us, I think to being aware of what
happens in state legislators and state elections, local elections, school boards.
A lot of what's happening is happening with school boards,
(45:31):
with book banning and the relationship between books being banned
on critical rates theory. You know, I don't like saying
his name, Mister Chris Brusso who came up with putting
critical race theory is like the catch all. He literally said,
we'll make anything that has to do with race and
racial equality, we'll call it critical race theory and make
it like the Boogeyman. He's the same person who's like,
(45:51):
now we're going to do this with trans issues, that
project that he's engaged in, that like the right wing
is engaged in. It's happening and at school boards, happening
all local level, So we have to be mindful of
that and that again, it's all connected. It really is
all connected. So it's like rights can be taken away.
Just because you have your rights now does not mean
you're going to have your rights tomorrow. So we really
(46:13):
are all in this together. And I think the people
who are most sort of anti trans are the loudest
on the Internet, and it gets clicks and it gets viewsed.
But I think when you talk to average Americans, they're
not like that pressed about trands stuff, right. I think
it's like politicians, pundits and a very small group of
(46:36):
people on the internet. So like, if we can find
ways to have conversations with people who might lean in
a different political direction, and it's hard and not demonize
those people. The representatives, the pundits, yeah, I think we
can say things about them, but the people. I think
that people can be reached if we can get to them.
I think a huge part of it is the conversation.
(46:58):
It can't be acceptable anymore to talk about things that
are really none of our business. If you are not trans,
if you're not the parent of a trans person or
a medical professional, it's none of your business. And the
line I think needs to be the government should not
be involved in the healthcare decisions of anybody, period, point blank.
(47:18):
It's not up for I've seen a lot of well
meeting people the age of when people should start this
whateverish No, not by politicians, medical professionals, yes, and medical
professionals have made a lot of decisions and done a
lot of research about that care. Let's leave it to them,
and let's not have the healthcare of trans people up
(47:38):
for debate. When we make it up for public debate,
we're debating the existence of trans people. So what I
believe the talking point should be is that it's none
of your business. I like to end every podcast with
the question, and we've been to talking about this the
(48:00):
whole time, and the question is what else is true?
What are the things that get us through? Even when
things are rough and hard, and they are right now
for trans people? What are the things that get you through?
And we've been talking about this day, maybe there's something
different that you haven't said, Peppermint for you today? What
else is true?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I've been able to work on some very artistically and
creatively fulfilling projects and things that make me feel great,
but then are also connected to some of these issues
that we're talking about, and I just feel so wonderful
to have been included. And I'm hopeful that I can
do my part to help keep a door open.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
And bring everybody else through.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And so that's what's true, is that it's not just
us sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
The only reason that you might think.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
As Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people
are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. It's
not like I've been upset every day when I woke up.
It's that every single time when I read the paper
every morning New York time, I'm putting out some other
story attacking me.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That's what's wrong.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
That's what's true, Chase Darling, for you today.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
What else is true?
Speaker 5 (49:14):
Well, I mean to me, this is it.
Speaker 4 (49:16):
Things can be, however demoralizing, there will always be for me.
And I feel so grateful for this, a moment that
reminds me how happy and lucky I feel to be alive.
And that is a blessing that I take with me.
And it might be just cuddling my cat or cuddling
my kid, or convening with you two.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
What a gift.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
And I am very, very very grateful to be here.
And that is true for me every single day. I
just am really committed to curating spaces of joy in
my life. And I'm forty now and I feel like,
never did I ever imagine that this type of future
for myself.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Oh, I'll join in. What else is true for me
today is love. I'm lucky enough to be like romantically,
deeply in love in a way that I've only dreamed about.
And I love you too, and I have friends who
I love with all my heart and all my soul,
and that love is healing and transformative. I think that
(50:20):
everybody out there, who's you know, using trans people as clickbait,
if you could just get some love in your life,
you know, justice is what love was like in public.
If we could just permeate that. I really believe in that.
What else is true for me is love, Honey, it's love.
(50:42):
Thank you so much, you two, we were all over
the place. I hope that everyone listening will have an
awareness of what's going on, but maybe leave with some
strategies about how we can kind of address and attack this.
And again, I want to remind transfers out there that
we've always found a way to get a hormone. We
(51:03):
always found away. You know, to get is to get
a surgery. Honey, We've found away, darling, look to the transcess.
Just honey. They cannot keep a girl or a boy,
or they cannot keep us away from our mones, honey,
and our procedures. Honey. Where there's a will, there's always
been a way. Okay, Can I get an amen up
(51:25):
in her?
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Amen, honey, Now let the music play.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Love feels like the thing to me that is the
most true right now. And when I am in the
company of Chase and Peppermint, I feel that love. When
I'm in the company of my community, I feel that love,
and it is such a blessing in the face of
the horrific, the catastrophic, and these in so many ways
(52:01):
of catastrophic times for trans people. We have each other.
We have community, We have people who love us. And
if you don't have that community yet, we're out here.
We're waiting for you. We're waiting for you, so come
and find us. The Internet is a great tool to
find that community. We can get through this. We've gone
(52:23):
through difficult times before. Look to our ancestors and our
transistors for guidance. They are here, they are with us always.
That beautiful Maya Angelou quote, I come as one, but
I stand as ten thousand, the connection to an energy
that is bigger than us, to a space that is
bigger than us. And that's why I wanted to have
(52:45):
this conversation with Chase and Peppermint today. They represent from
me the connection to that history, to that present, to
that thing that is deep and true, that transcends all
of the misinformation should in propaganda and hatred towards our community.
Find that community. They're out there and they are waiting
(53:07):
for you, and they need you just as much as
you need them. This episode was recorded back in February
twenty twenty three. There were about three hundred and thirty
anti trans bills in process then. It is now early
July and that number has grown to over five hundred
(53:28):
and fifty bills in forty nine states. So far, eighty
three have passed and one hundred and thirteen have been defeated.
You can also track what's happening at trans Legislation dot
com and as always, see our show notes for more information.
Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
(53:52):
and share with everyone you know. You can find me
on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on
Facebook at Laverne Coo for Real. Until next time, he
stay in the love. The Laverne Clock Show is a
production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more
(54:13):
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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