September 26, 2023 • 48 mins
Connie Fleming. In this two-part episode honoring the legendary runway model, cabaret performer and NYC “door bitch”, Laverne gets allll the tea about Connie’s life then and now. These episodes are bursting with history, HERSTORY and fun, juicy details of incredible stories from back in the glorious (and terrifying) day.
Part I: The 80’s and 90’s
In this episode Laverne and Connie talk about her life in the 80’s and 90’s New York. She was a groundbreaking transgender model who walked for Thierry Mugler and Vivienne Westwood. And, wow, did she WALK!!! Connie was also part of the original Boy Bar Beauties, an iconic cabaret in the East Village, Wigstock, the Too Funky and Divine Thing Videos. She was in the middle of the explosive, exciting and yes, deadly, New York City gay and trans creative world. Not drag, darling, trans. Trans models now have her to thank.
Please rate, review, subscribe and share The Laverne Cox Show with everyone you know. You can find Laverne on Instagram and Twitter @LaverneCox and on Facebook at @LaverneCoxForReal.
As always, stay in the love.
Links of Interest - PART 1:
The Untold Story of the Fearless Connie Fleming (The Standard) (2017)
Sophia Lamar, Connie Girl and Zaldy: 3 icons who defied normative beauty - Dazed Digital (2019)
Art School Girls of Doom, The Bra
Thierry Mugler at Brooklyn Museum
Connie walking for Mugler - MUST SEE
George Michael - Too Funky (Official Video)
George Michael - Too Funky (Thierry Mugler Original Director's Cut)
The Soup Dragons - Divine Thing
3 Vintage Trans Models You Might Not Know About (incl. Teri Toye)
How Drag Influenced 90’s Fashion…from Mugler to Levi’s (Elle)
Billy Beyond (Instagram)
Thierry Mugler Jacket Animation (Fashion Institute of Technology)
Wigstock (1995 Doc, Part 1)
Lady Bunny @ The Boy Bar (Video)
International Chrysis (Boy Bar video, joined by Cody Ravioli)
Other Episodes Mentioned or Relevant:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
You know when you meet someone and you connect immediately.
The stars truly had a lie. As the door is closing,
He's like, what do you mean you're going to come
to see one of the shows? You are going to
be in them? The doors closed and the train pulled off,
and I was like, what did that white man just say?
(00:30):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I think it's so important to know your history, your pursy,
to know those who have come before you.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Who have paved a path for.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You to walk, To know that history and to celebrate it.
To on her Edge today will be a history lesson
with the one and only Connie Flemming, the Incomparable, the
Inimitable aka Connie Girl. Flemming is a legend and icon
(01:15):
of New York City nightlife. She is one of the
original boy Bar beauties and if you do not know
boy Bar, check out our show notes. She is a
runway model and has been photographed by Scovulo, Stephen Maizell
and others. She has walked the runways of Terry Muglair
(01:37):
and Vivian Westwood. In fact, some of the most iconic
runway walks ever. She delivered to us in Terry Muglair
shows in the early nineteen nineties, and she has set
the tone at some of New York's most exclusive nightclubs
as one of the most discerning door persons in the
(01:59):
history New York City nightlife. In fact, she still calls
herself the doorbitch. Please enjoy part one of my conversation
with the Legend, the icon, the one and only Connie Flemming.
(02:26):
Connie Fleming, Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm feeling well, trying to get over the door bitch
seasonal coal from being outside. I have the sniffles, but
they're kind of going away, fingers crossed.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I love that you call yourself doorbitch. What doors are
you working now? Connie?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
At the Standard le Bete and at our sister next
door top of the Standard gorgeous?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So okay, Oh, I have so much to talk about.
Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited, I'm nervous,
you icon, legend, just everything, Just so you know, so,
I am wearing look at what I'm wearing.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
No, you are wearing that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm wearing this for the listeners. I'm wearing a blazer
from Terry Muglaier's first Coutur collection Fall nineteen ninety two
that Connie Fleming. Connie herself wore in the show. Her
has had lacing in the front. This particular piece actually
can be seen in the Brooklyn exhibit of mister Muglair's
(03:34):
work that's at the Brooklyn Museum right now. I just
wanted to wear this and honor of you. I can't
even part of me can't even believe like I'm talking
to you. I know I've known you for years, but
I'm I don't know, We've never really sat down and talked. No,
And I'm so just honored to have this moment with you.
I really am.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Thank you and thank you for all of your work.
And also, before we get into it all, I want
to thank you for coming to Cody's memorial and speaking.
It was so important for the full canon of her life.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, you know, I initially wanted to start with nineteen
ninety two, but why why don't we start with Cody? Okay,
I got to know Cody when I was at Lucky
Chang's and for those listening, Cody Leone, Cody Ravioli, New
York City legend, Art school Girls of Doom on YouTube.
For those people who their YouTube videos so on MTV
back in the day, what was it.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Called liquid television? Television? Yes, eon flat.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
In the early nineties, think called liquid television. Do you
want to tell the kids? Why not?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Tell the kids?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It was sort of like an extension of sort of
that Simpsons cartoons for adults.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It was after midnight on MTV. It was called liquid television,
and part of liquid television was like a skit show
called Art school Girls of Doom with Cody Leone and
Gina what was Gina's last name?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gina Vitro now a veterinarian.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
We were all three roommates together on Sixth Street and
Avenue B.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Tell me okay, so okay you, Gina and Cody were
all roommates.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yes, what year? Roughly ninety ninety one. We all came
together at Boy Bar and then we all sort of
were like reaching out, We found each other, and we
all transitioned together. I felt so lucky and so graced
(05:43):
to be with three other women in this really difficult
time because we would go out and if you found
a therapist, we would come back and tell the collective.
If you found this, we would come back and tell
the collective. And we all were there for each other,
pushed each other, gave each other grace in such a
(06:07):
hard time. And I am so thankful.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And what was hard for you? What was hard about
that time transitioning in ninety ninety.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Two, everything, employment, housing, getting the right therapy, not being
busted and disgusted. We were there for each other. We
sort of made sure that we didn't let the world
pull us down. Because Gina and I were then working
(06:40):
at the phone sex line. We were eight hundred girls
and we were the switchboard.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And we found employment, and then we sort of pushed
each other. We pushed each other with our medications and
finding a good androchronologist.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Back then. Doctor Rish was the doctor for a lot
of the girls.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Back then.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
He was my first doctor in nineteen ninety eight. He
was a plastic surgeon on the Upper West Side. Did
you go to doctor Rish or no?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Was that I went to Fleischmann? Okay?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I didn't know Fleischman, Okay?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Was it on Central park West in the seventies. Yes,
so he took over for doctor Fleischmann because God, that's
where I had my implants done because I went to him,
I want to say, maybe in eighty seven to do
hormones and I went on the wrong day at the
(07:40):
wrong time. And that was the other thing finding healthcare.
You had to go on the right day. If the
black nurse wasn't there or the Asian worst nurse wasn't there,
turn around and leave.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Wow. Well my understanding was with doctor Rish at the
time when I was ninety eight, is that the only
time he saw the trans girls was on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, same here, Yeah, you had.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
To go on Wednesday. So I think like it was
in the waiting room, girl, the waiting room with everything
the stories that you would hear.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I saw in that waiting room.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yes, girl, it was really everything so access. And then
back in the day too, there were a lot of
girls who would get I mean there was there was
Ralph and this is the nineties Ralph, you know Ralph.
So a lot of the girls would get hormones from
Ralph and just from random people who procured them from wherever.
So we would kind of guess buy them on the street,
(08:38):
you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
The black market. And I remember International Crisis.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Which is the International Crisis. The legendary icon trans woman
performer who is one of Salvador Dali's music is trans Women.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And Crisis would have Roamy Hogg get the German hormones.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The German shots, girl, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And the call would go out and you had to
get to Crisis's house at a certain time to get
at least two boxes.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So, for those who don't know the German hormones allegedly
were you would be applaud. I don't know what other length.
You would be cut overnight with the German hormone.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Now, the mensises would follow you, screw pheromones. The mensises
would be after you on the street. The minute the
needle came out. They would be, hey, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I never got the German hormones. Those German hormones turned
the girls. And I think there was something about because
there was girls in the nineties were so beautiful, and
I'm wondering if it was the German it was German
shots that were like just turning the girls out.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And it was the wild, wild West, and we were
sort of left to our own devices to find our
own levels. But that collective of myself, Gina and Cody.
We had doctors I can't remember. Tina Wheeler was myself
and Gina's therapist, but there was another doctor that I found.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
How wonderful that you were going to therapy because a
lot of the girls didn't go to therapy back then.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It was a standard of care. And I can't remember
the therapist's name, but you had to go through a
certain time before the further steps of transition, whether it's
the medical or whatever. And we went through everything in
her office. It was just towards the end that I
was seeing her and it was the end of our
(10:42):
session and she's like, Oh, I have to get ready
for the children, and I'm like children And this was
like ninety two ish, maybe ninety three, and I think
she was one of the first to start with children
in therapy to set them on the road. Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
People act like trans care for kids is something new,
but she was doing it in nineteen ninety three, ninety two.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I was so taken aback. I fell into tears in
the elevator going downstairs because I was like, have we
come this far that we are going to allow a
child that comes to you in all honesty and all
(11:33):
sincerity that this is what is happening to me and
I can voice it. It just took me out for weeks.
I was like, oh my god, maybe the world will
change a sentilla.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And what if I had that when I was a child.
Before we leave Cody favorite Cody memory for you, having
known her, I just want, I do want to take
a moment. She's such an icon and I'm just so
glad I got to know her. And people should know
there's so many icons and legends that we don't know, Yes,
who we should know? Who shaped New York culture? Who
(12:12):
just changed people's lives? I mean, and so much of
trans and LGBTQ culture. It's oral traditions, right and having
that trans mother, having that that girlfriend who showed you
the rope so you went through it together, that kind
of chosen family. So for those people who don't know Cody,
go watch Our Schoolgirls of Doom. But what would you
(12:33):
want to say to people and about who Cody was?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Just her loving heart Back when we were roommates, there
was always this sort of melancholy about her. And then
one day I was doing the door somewhere and she
pulled up because she wanted to say hi, and this
(12:57):
guy got out of the car and I was like,
it's her boyfriend. She's like, she's like, oh, hi, how
are you? And I want to introduce you to my son.
And I was like, oh, you're kind of like and
she's like, no, this is my biological son. Yeah, And
(13:18):
I was like, exqueeze me.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Just to clarify. Before she transitioned, she had, I believe
was three sons with her, like high school girlfriend or something.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, pressure from her parents to sort of be heteronormative.
Right weeks later, we sat and we talked and she
told me because we only knew little snippets here and
there of what was happening, and she told me about
how she went to Vegas to try to make a
(13:53):
better life for the whole family, all of her, her
kids and their mom because she was a genius sort
of Cyndi lauper impersonator. And she went to Lakaja Fall, Vegas,
blah blah, built her career, built her name, and came
back and both families had shut her out of the
(14:18):
children's lives. And we were talking and then I turned
to her and said, no matter what, they did that
blood connection. They came and sought you out, and we
looked at each other and she was like, you know what,
(14:39):
You're right. All of the things that happened after the
separation kind of have to melt away, and we now
have to reconnect and heal wounds and become a family.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah. Yeah, so let's pass forward. I'm gonna jump around
a little bit. Two ninety two. So I'm a mooglair
file and a bit of a historian. But nineteen eighty two, I,
as I said, it was his first couture show. It
was the year that the first Fragrance Angel came out,
and it was a year that Too Funky came out.
And Too Funky is how I discovered Terry Muglair. I
(15:18):
was obsessed with the video, and you were in the
Too Funky video, but I did not know in the
version that was on MTV and VH one, your face
was not shown. The iconic beaded red cowboy chaps, I
mean iconic look and I want to talk some more
about that, but I didn't know. I didn't see your face.
(15:38):
And then it wasn't until years later that I knew
that that was you in the video and I just
kind of felt cheated, honestly, not knowing. I mean, nineteen
ninety two, I was in Indiana, I was in college.
It was a year after I graduated from high school.
And then I moved to New York in nineteen ninety three,
and I just felt like my life would have been
so different if I had known that there was a black
(16:00):
trans woman in George Michael's Too Funky video. I feel
anger and sadness and a lot of things not knowing that.
And years later I saw on mister Muglair's director's cut,
and you open that video and we see your face.
And then and then when I went to when I
was in Paris a year ago and I saw mister
Muglair's show, I was, you know, so excited just to
(16:21):
see the exhibit. And I was going through the exhibit
looking for you. You know, I saw the pieces, but
I didn't and I didn't see your face in that exhibit.
Maybe I didn't see that in one of the videos
of the shows. Maybe you were there, but I did
not see you. And I was looking for you, and
I was looking for your face. And then I when
and when In opened the show opened in Brooklyn, I
don't know if you know Casey Keedwallader, who's the Mouclair
creative director. Now I said, I said to Casey, I
(16:44):
was like, where's Connie, I said to Kate's where's Connie's face.
Part of it is because we didn't see your face
in George Michael's version of the video. And then you're like,
not in the in the exhibit, but in I want
to know what your life was like ninety ninety two.
I mean, you've told us a little bit about like
being in transition, but being in this huge video, but
(17:07):
your face isn't shown walking for Muglaire in these clothes.
I mean, the clothes are so exquisite, the construction, the sumptuous,
assumptuous and powerful, and then the drama that you brought
to the runway.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Okay, history, talk to me history. At the beginning of
the second day, when I got there, George Michael comes,
we were filming my part, and then the sort of
clash up the Titans started to happen because Terry wanted
(17:47):
the backstage bit and then for me to come out
on the runway so that you could see that pan
up shot. Yes, fight happens.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So for those who don't know, a little bit of
a backstory. The two Funky video with a video that
I was done for charity for them to raise money
for AIDS research, and everyone was donating their time and
apparently they had gone over budget. It was already over
a million dollars after the first day and people were
sort of freaking out, and George Michael was like, we're done.
Mister Muglair was like, We're not done. And then a
(18:19):
fi happened. Girl, Yeah, so this is why, and so
this is the fight she's alluding to. Yes, so on.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And Terry wanted atmosphere and then to use the shot
of me backstage as my face shot. We go to lunch,
we come back. Terry is like directing all of the
racks out and he was like, okay, we're leaving, and
we all turned to each other and like wait, what's
(18:46):
what what what?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And taking the clothes with us.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yes, and then we're all gathering our stuff and Linda
and Vachalisa comes over and says, Okay, are you going
to stay or are you going to leave? So we
were all like, okay, we're all going to leave. Linda
went back spoke with George we all met in the
(19:10):
middle and we all started to talk and say, you
know what, we are here for a larger cause. It
was ninety two. People were still dropping like flies. We
had all just come from funerals, all just come from
(19:31):
hospital rooms. I'll just come from waves of death and despair,
and we were trying to help. And both of them
felt their better angels and we started again. My face shot,
Terree wasn't going to give it up. He wanted it
(19:54):
for his version.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, so he was committed to that. But for whatever
reason in George's verse, he didn't it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Just he didn't have that face shot of me going
to the runway.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
He just wanted that looked to be shot that way
and didn't get your face on the runway, or.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
He wanted that pan upshot to be in shadow and
then I would lift my face at the end. But
we broke for lunch, so that shot wasn't taken. And
then the big clash of the Titans happened, so.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
It was because we broke for lunch. This is good
to know. I'm feeling a little bit better about the erasure,
but still not a lot better.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I think what came out before that was the Soup Dragons.
The Soup Dragon's video came out and it was called
a fine thing. It was on heavy rotation.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Were you in that video as well?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yes, Oh, I'm like maybe the second lead in that video,
and it's very Warhol Studio Factory vibe and Old Times
Square before it was Disney Fine. Okay, that was on
heavy rotation. But there was an objection because I was
(21:10):
in it, that it could not play in the afternoon
because I was trans and black.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
This is on MTV. On MTV, I I'm like, I'm
looking at I just looked at you in the video.
It's like, who would even.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Know it was considered to be harmful for children, Like
they would even know?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That's what I'm like, You're walking and you're so chic
and you've got this pink in the headband work a work, honeywork.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
It became a hit record, so they had to play
it off of Prime Time because it was being requested.
Everybody loved it. So I think once Too Funky came out,
I think that was also a thing that if you
put my face in it, it might be hampering in
(22:06):
when it can be played, how often it can be played.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But my question is we see Joey Arias and Lipsynca
their faces.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So it's not trans. Let it sink in not trans.
And by then my sort of insistence on not being
put into the drag category to make it easier for
the look of the moment, flavor of the moment, and
(22:36):
saying that I was trans gave me a reputation of
being difficult.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
To insist that I'm not a drag queen, I'm a
trans woman. Yeah, gave you a difficult This is important.
This is what folks need to know. All the lovely
young models who are modeling now that this is what
the girls went through. Yeah, so you can walk runways now,
this is what the girls went through. After a tiny
little break, We've got so much more for you. Let's
(23:15):
get back to it. So you were not only a
trans model? Who was you know? They didn't know and
then they knew. But you're also a black model. And
Terry loved black models. He always used black models and
loved Can you tell us how how did you come
(23:36):
to my model for mister Muglare.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It was like, at the end maybe eighty nine, I
had started to model for small designers in downtown New
York and the community and crisis.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
International crisis. If you don't know her, google her, Get
your life to continue.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Crisis was like, you know what you are meant for this,
You are meant for it, even if you don't see
it for yourself, even if you are so within your
cocoon of growing up and being so tortured. I was afraid,
(24:19):
I was apprehensive. I was black and I was trans.
You know, my predecessor was Terry Toy, blonde, white and
blue wide, and they gave her grace me.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
No. Terry Toy was a trans model who famously with
Steven Sprouse's Mused in the eighties. She modeled for several people, but.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Muclaire Chanelle Gautier. She went to Paris and she, like.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Push, was openly trans the whole time.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I think that's the difference because trans models have existed
throughout history, but we haven't always been able to be open,
and so Terry Toy really was a moment when a
model was able to be open.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, and gave space and room for me. Because when
I went to Paris, that was like I was already
halfway through my transition and I felt so good. I
did not feel crazy, I did not feel unworthy. So
(25:26):
why why Because they were there to tear you down anyway,
So I'm not going to give this to you to
tear me down.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So I'm on the danceport at the Paradise Garage and
this French gentleman comes over and says, do you model?
It's like, yeah, I'm modeled for like, you know, downtown
New York while by very little things. It's like, well,
if you are ever in Paris, look me up. He
(25:56):
gave me his business card. My favorite song came on
Maybe Grace Pull Up to the Bumper or Yoko Ono
Walking on Thin Ice. It was one of those, and
I lost my mind and ran to the dance board
that morning. When I got home afternoon, I should say,
(26:17):
because we did close the joint at like eleven thirty twelve,
I could not find the card. So you know. Desmond Cadogan, yes,
also a Terry Muglair model News we had met and
he was like, you really have to meet Terry, you
really have to come to Paris. I told him about
(26:38):
this guy and he's like, well, what did he look like.
It's like he was French, dark hair, blah blah, and
it's like, okay, give me a minute. So a couple
of months went by and I worked with Danilo and
Billy Beyond, and that was the debut of Billy Beyond's
paper Lashes.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, the Billy Beyond, the legendary makeup artist Danillo, legendary hairstyles.
For those people listening, let legendary, Like understand your history, okay,
go on.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So I took this wonderful picture. I can't remember the
name of the photographer, and I think Danilo showed that
to Terry. Cut to a couple of months later and
we are doing the first Suzanne barsh Love Ball and
I walked for body Map. So model for body Map
(27:37):
went downstairs and there was Terry Desmond and I think
somebody else dragged me over it. This is Connie, this
is who we are talking about. It was like, oh,
now I get it. So a couple of months later
they call and ask for pictures. And then a couple
(28:00):
of months later I was on the plane going to Paris.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And this I think was your first show eighty nine, ninety.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Eighty nine, ninety Fall Winter.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Fall Winter. I'm trying to remember the look that you wore.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
It was a chartruse, you know, those bell like blazer dresses.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
First time, I was like, okay, I will walk as
I think I should walk in high fashion parish. I
had three looks. First show I walk, I'm Munya, I
am Katushka, I am all of my heroes. And I
(28:43):
go backstage, break for lunch, come back. I have one outfit.
I was like, wait what. First I was disappointed, and
then I was like, you know what, screw them, screw you.
And I went out there in my one outfit and
(29:05):
I did everything and walk backwards and I walked backstage
and Terry is like, why didn't you do that in
the first place. That's what we wanted from you. We
wanted your energy, your Cleveland sort of kinetic energy. That's
(29:27):
what we wanted. That's what everybody was telling me about you.
And then you go and you do like what you
think is the.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Walk he led, Pat and he mom talks about it.
It's almost as it was like acting doing a Mooglership
because it shows were so theatrical. And what I love
about watching you walk in different shows of his is
that the walk was different every time because the look
was different. It was still Connie, but you it was acting,
(29:58):
it was performance. It was. It was drama everything.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yes, Norma Desmond Sunset Boulevard. You could not be swallowed
because those looks could easily swallow you. Yes, because you
can see it on certain people where it swallows them.
You had to come out.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You had to wear the clothes, the clothes not wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You embody it and make it sing.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, and you really did in such a beautiful way.
And you walked for several seasons from mister Mouglair.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I just discovered recently that you were also roommates with
mister Pearl. And for those who don't know, mister Pearl
did all the Corse Tree for mister Mouglair. The story
of how you ended up with a cowboy look? Can
you just tell that story? In the two Funky video
what Connie's wearing is this red beaded cowboy look with chaps.
It's just it's so iconic. It's on exhibit in Brooklyn Museum.
(30:54):
It is one of the most iconic pieces of fashion
history ever. And she got to wear it. Can you
tell us how that happened? It's such a great story.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
This was just before Cody moved in. Pearl had just
moved to New York. Had started to work with Newglare
and I think Galiano and certain other people. One of
my trips to Japan, there was a moscino sale and
I was always obsessed with that mosquito collection of the cowboy.
(31:27):
It was sort of Dallas and it was a beautiful
cowboy hat, and I was like, Oh, I'm going to
be in the desert in New Mexico. I'm going to
wear my cowboy hat. And I went to go shoot
with Terry in New Mexico. So I get out of
the trailer and Terry looks at me and you could
see the light bulb turn on. So I got back
(31:50):
to New York and Pearl had moved out, and moved
out he went around the corner basically, So the message
was to go over to Pearls. So I go over
to Pearls and pros like, Okay, this is what you're
going to wear. And I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Was it already in the making. Was it just a
sketch at the time? What was when you?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I think Pearl had a copy of the sketch okay,
and it was supposed to be for Naomi, but Naomi
couldn't do the fittings because I was waiste training back then,
you know, I could sort of take the pressure because
they wanted it to be as close to nineteen a
(32:34):
nineteen inch waist as possible. I think we got to
maybe twenty three, twenty two something like that. Wow. Because
that's also another thing about too funky. I could not breathe.
The person who laced me up laced me up from
the top down. You're supposed to breathe shallow through the
top of your chest, but I couldn't do that. So
(32:57):
I was on all fours in between shots, trying to
keep my head up so that I wouldn't pass out. Okay,
so we're at.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
This is I didn't know any of this. Thank you
for all these details. Girl, I'm living. I'm living. Okay,
go on.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
We're at the fittings, and everybody chipped in who knew
how to stitch. I mean I even did a couple
of the hearts that were on the brim of the hat.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You did some of the beating yourself, and.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Then there would be notes, oh, take this off, make this,
do that. Because that was the other thing. The amazing
thing about Newclare, the way things would grow and come
together and flourish and blossom, because when you would go
for fittings, you would see it like, what the hell
(33:50):
is that? It's a cage? What are they going to
do with that? And then by the end the day
before the show, it was beauty.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
I mean, I think people should understand how intricate this is.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And also the level of innovation with fabrications, of shaping
and cutting. There's this wonderful gift from fit where it's
all of the pieces come together to make one of
those wonderful blazers, and they're like one hundred pieces and
(34:28):
they all like sort of come together in the cartoon
and you have this wonderful blazer that is structured in
a way that you can put it on and you
feel nuclearized and you feel powerful. You feel the care,
(34:49):
research and love for the craft twenty pieces to come
to make that one curve.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
But it's genius though. The way it'll sit him on
the body, it's absolutely brilliant. I don't even know how
a mind would think, let me do this. He's a genius.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It was him and the women in the atalier, those seamstresses,
because that jacket I went in for the fitting and
they were like, and he's like, oh, let's put in
shoulder pads, and they all turned around and said no, mmm,
look at her in that jacket. She does not need
shoulder pads. And the way the sort of design just
(35:33):
came up like that, and I remember, I remember them
because it wasn't a real fitting unless you lost consciousness.
It wasn't It wasn't a good season at New Glare
if you did not pass the fuck out on the ped.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Stil because the corse tree was not fashion. I can't,
I can't do that. So you waist trained for a while.
How long did you do that? Because there's different things
about waste training, like right, is it safe? Is it whatever?
How long did you do that? Did you had to?
Were your organs rearranged? Did you have any negative health
outcomes from it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Or are you just no, just a little bit of
scarring okay, which took a while, and like a cocoa butter,
you know, nightly. But then Lauren, the wonderful Lauren Pine,
who's also in Too Funky, when they measure her waist
and they smack her with the measuring tape, she was
more into it than any of us and would say, okay,
(36:33):
you're getting scarring, get a silk wrap and wrap it first,
and then put on the corset. Get cellophane wrap your
waist and then you know, because I wanted to have
that hour glass shape. Yes, and I'm sort of like
(36:53):
you know, and the girls now have to thank the
girls then for doing the hard work. Yes, of a
Brazilian butt lift and this and that and the sucking
and a poll money.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And I interviewed Honey de John last week and we
were talking about the before the Brazilian butt lift. Since
the sixties, the trans girls were getting silicone. Yeah everywhere
so face boo, bibbs hips, booty.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, you're welcome, Nicki minaj.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Okay, it's that time again. A lot more is coming
though without further ado. There's I want to take it
back to boy Bar.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I love the story of how you ended up at
boy Bar. But so boy Bar was a legendary drag
cabaret on Saint Mark's Place from eight I think eighty
five five to ninety five or something, and you were
one of the original boy Bar beauties. Matthew Casten was
the brain child behind it and it was the shows
or just there's some some videos on YouTube, and they
(38:12):
were just iconic shows, and the boy Bar beauties were iconic.
There's some Wigstock the boy Bar beause being Wigstock, I
think in the Wigstock movie just for people to have
some references to go and look up. But talk to
us about boy Bar and what that experience was like.
There's so many wonderful stories. But that's where you came
out of your shell.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yes, I would not have made it to Paris and
the Paris Runways if it wasn't for Boybar. It rebuilt me.
It rebuilt my because I was in a shell.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
You were in Brooklyn, I mean just a little bit.
You were very bullied as a child, raised in Brooklyn
and finally found your way to New York antique boutique
Glamor Moore started going out and then one day you
met Matthew and he said he was going to be starting.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yes, this cabaret, and we talked about fashion and everything.
You know when you meet someone and you connect immediately. Yes,
that's what happened that night. The stars truly had a line.
And the evening ended and we were going to the subway.
(39:23):
My train came first and I said, congratulations, I want
to come and see one of the shows, blah blah blah.
And as the door is closing, he's like, what do
you mean you're going to come to see one of
the shows? You are going to be in them? The
doors closed and the train pulled off, and I was like,
what did that white man just say?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
But you had not been performing?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
No, so you had not been performing. And what I
what I know about you as a performer is like
cartwheels and splits, and like, where did all they come from?
Did you train as a dancer? Did you? I mean,
because you are you're a dancer.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
I am a child of the Late late late late
late Late Show, all of the golden era of Hollywood musicals.
I watched intently because it was an escape from the
break daily and I sort of went into that world
(40:28):
and could dream and I danced around the living room
and it's like, oh I can do that, Oh I
can do that. Then started to watch The Share Show
and Carol Burnett and it was all of these sort
of touchstones of comedy and dance and performing that was
(40:50):
sort of inside of me.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
You absorbed all of them, Yes, you absorbed all of them.
And then that first night at boybas Matthew pushes you
out and then it just all comes out.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah. But he literally had to push me out on
that stage. And then I hit the stage and the
spotlights hit me in the eyes and I couldn't see anybody,
and I was like, I can't see anybody. I can
do anything.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
What did you do in your living room? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, And it all came pouring out. M A couple
of months later, we were all famous below fourteenth Street,
and I was like, wait, you know, it was just
everything that I had loved that gave me joy and
allowed me to continue on in such a violent kind
(41:44):
of place, I could let it pour out and I
could give it to an audience, and in that time,
the audience really needed it because it was, you know,
the hide up the play. And I think why also
(42:05):
we connected was that it was live. We spoke to
what was happening daily in the news in the world,
and we sort of sent it up and lampooned it
and gave our audience some love, much needed love.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
You have some videos of the Old Boy Boar shows,
and they were like so many different kinds of shows,
but love of them were parodies. There would be voiceover
of dialogue that you would live think to. There were themes.
They were crazy. I mean, I'm thinking space cunts is
that was that something that.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
That was the brainchild of David Darrymple, famous wonderful designer,
and Mona Foot, our wonderful Mona Foot. That was their brain.
There was the sixties musical and it starred International Crisis
Jesus Christ as superstar.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yes, I heard about this one.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
There was the Frankenstein Missus Frankenstein David Glyman Moore I
think was Frankenstein and I was the bride of Frankenstein.
Beetlejuice had come out and we had done this wonderful,
beautiful show that was sort of set in the waiting room.
When they die and they go to that waiting room.
(43:26):
It was all set in that waiting room, the Leona
Helmsley story when David was Leona Helmsley. It was just
like an incredible.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I love that we're talking about the specifics of this
show so that people can understand what I mean. It's
hard to quantify what it means when you're in the
audience and you're experiencing culture being made. And I think
what folks should understand about Downtown Eats Village, New York
in the eighties. Is that culture or was being made
(44:01):
there that artist, major artist, Basquiad, Keith Haring, Madonna, Warhol,
they were.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
All David Bowie, David Bowie.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
They were going to these clubs and getting inspiration. Klaus Nomay.
There was a performance art thing going on. I think
of John Sex, you know, Pyramid and so there was
this art thing going on that was intersecting with Drag.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Lady Bunny and Happy Face and Taboo at the Pyramid.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
And in the beginnings of WISDOC.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, all major culture, major culture that shifted people and
brought community together. It was about community, but it was
also culture being created that trickled up into higher culture
that trickled into museums. So when we talk about this
boy bar moment, it's important to understand it in a
(44:54):
cultural context of this is where people were going for
inspiration for fashion, inspiration for is the way a culture
was made. Yeah, what is the biggest takeaway for you
from the boy that boy Bar era.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It was such a special time and Matthew wanted to
take drag out of it, being sort of second class
citizen in the entertainment lexicon of that time. You wanted
us to be polished, beautiful and capable, capable of doing
(45:36):
not just lip sync, but am seeing and singing and
going out and making it a larger a larger voice
in the world. And was always so kind of protective
of us because what was happening outside was catastrophic and
(46:03):
we got to see our heroes before they passed, giving
me a view onto transness and it not being so
far away, not being behind the looking glass. We got
(46:24):
to witness what the world was and to turn it
on its ear. What I carry away from that is
the importance of in the moment live performance. You are
there and you can connect and you can exchange with
(46:48):
a live audience, that exchange of laughter or applause when
you're in that moment, and to share it with that
audience that was so in need of relief and love.
That's what I cherished the most about it.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh my god, that was everything right, That was everything
that gave me my full entire life. Thank you, Connie.
It was so good that we had to make it
a two parter. There was so much information, so in
just a few short days, Part two of my conversation
with the Legend the Icon Connie Fleming will be dropping
(47:32):
in the meantime. Be sure to check out all of
our show notes. So throughout that conversation, I was like,
google this, check this out. We have links to almost
everything I reference. Brooke turned it shut out to our
producer Brooke. Now, in the next half, we talk about
Connie's life as a nightclub maven and an infamous New
(47:53):
York City door person. We talked more about a runway
career and working with the legend Vivian Westwood. We talk
more for God and transhearstory, juicy behind the scene details
of the Paris runway with a certain supermodel girl. It's giving,
it's tea, it's everything and more. If you can believe it,
(48:14):
just walk in and live in history. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
Thank you so much everyone for listening. I hope you
are getting your life as much as I am. Please rate, review,
subscribe and share with everyone you know. You can find
me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox or should
I say Instagram and X at Laverne Cox and on
(48:37):
Facebook at Laverne Cox for reel Until next time, stay
in the Love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production
of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
You know when you meet someone and you connect immediately.
The stars truly had a lie. As the door is closing,
He's like, what do you mean you're going to come
to see one of the shows? You are going to
be in them? The doors closed and the train pulled off,
and I was like, what did that white man just say?
(00:30):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I think it's so important to know your history, your pursy,
to know those who have come before you.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Who have paved a path for.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You to walk, To know that history and to celebrate it.
To on her Edge today will be a history lesson
with the one and only Connie Flemming, the Incomparable, the
Inimitable aka Connie Girl. Flemming is a legend and icon
(01:15):
of New York City nightlife. She is one of the
original boy Bar beauties and if you do not know
boy Bar, check out our show notes. She is a
runway model and has been photographed by Scovulo, Stephen Maizell
and others. She has walked the runways of Terry Muglair
(01:37):
and Vivian Westwood. In fact, some of the most iconic
runway walks ever. She delivered to us in Terry Muglair
shows in the early nineteen nineties, and she has set
the tone at some of New York's most exclusive nightclubs
as one of the most discerning door persons in the
(01:59):
history New York City nightlife. In fact, she still calls
herself the doorbitch. Please enjoy part one of my conversation
with the Legend, the icon, the one and only Connie Flemming.
(02:26):
Connie Fleming, Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm feeling well, trying to get over the door bitch
seasonal coal from being outside. I have the sniffles, but
they're kind of going away, fingers crossed.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I love that you call yourself doorbitch. What doors are
you working now? Connie?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
At the Standard le Bete and at our sister next
door top of the Standard gorgeous?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So okay, Oh, I have so much to talk about.
Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited, I'm nervous,
you icon, legend, just everything, Just so you know, so,
I am wearing look at what I'm wearing.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
No, you are wearing that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm wearing this for the listeners. I'm wearing a blazer
from Terry Muglaier's first Coutur collection Fall nineteen ninety two
that Connie Fleming. Connie herself wore in the show. Her
has had lacing in the front. This particular piece actually
can be seen in the Brooklyn exhibit of mister Muglair's
(03:34):
work that's at the Brooklyn Museum right now. I just
wanted to wear this and honor of you. I can't
even part of me can't even believe like I'm talking
to you. I know I've known you for years, but
I'm I don't know, We've never really sat down and talked. No,
And I'm so just honored to have this moment with you.
I really am.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Thank you and thank you for all of your work.
And also, before we get into it all, I want
to thank you for coming to Cody's memorial and speaking.
It was so important for the full canon of her life.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, you know, I initially wanted to start with nineteen
ninety two, but why why don't we start with Cody? Okay,
I got to know Cody when I was at Lucky
Chang's and for those listening, Cody Leone, Cody Ravioli, New
York City legend, Art school Girls of Doom on YouTube.
For those people who their YouTube videos so on MTV
back in the day, what was it.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Called liquid television? Television? Yes, eon flat.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
In the early nineties, think called liquid television. Do you
want to tell the kids? Why not?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Tell the kids?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It was sort of like an extension of sort of
that Simpsons cartoons for adults.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It was after midnight on MTV. It was called liquid television,
and part of liquid television was like a skit show
called Art school Girls of Doom with Cody Leone and
Gina what was Gina's last name?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gina Vitro now a veterinarian.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
We were all three roommates together on Sixth Street and
Avenue B.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Tell me okay, so okay you, Gina and Cody were
all roommates.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yes, what year? Roughly ninety ninety one. We all came
together at Boy Bar and then we all sort of
were like reaching out, We found each other, and we
all transitioned together. I felt so lucky and so graced
(05:43):
to be with three other women in this really difficult
time because we would go out and if you found
a therapist, we would come back and tell the collective.
If you found this, we would come back and tell
the collective. And we all were there for each other,
pushed each other, gave each other grace in such a
(06:07):
hard time. And I am so thankful.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And what was hard for you? What was hard about
that time transitioning in ninety ninety.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Two, everything, employment, housing, getting the right therapy, not being
busted and disgusted. We were there for each other. We
sort of made sure that we didn't let the world
pull us down. Because Gina and I were then working
(06:40):
at the phone sex line. We were eight hundred girls
and we were the switchboard.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And we found employment, and then we sort of pushed
each other. We pushed each other with our medications and
finding a good androchronologist.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Back then. Doctor Rish was the doctor for a lot
of the girls.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Back then.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
He was my first doctor in nineteen ninety eight. He
was a plastic surgeon on the Upper West Side. Did
you go to doctor Rish or no?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Was that I went to Fleischmann? Okay?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I didn't know Fleischman, Okay?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Was it on Central park West in the seventies. Yes,
so he took over for doctor Fleischmann because God, that's
where I had my implants done because I went to him,
I want to say, maybe in eighty seven to do
hormones and I went on the wrong day at the
(07:40):
wrong time. And that was the other thing finding healthcare.
You had to go on the right day. If the
black nurse wasn't there or the Asian worst nurse wasn't there,
turn around and leave.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Wow. Well my understanding was with doctor Rish at the
time when I was ninety eight, is that the only
time he saw the trans girls was on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, same here, Yeah, you had.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
To go on Wednesday. So I think like it was
in the waiting room, girl, the waiting room with everything
the stories that you would hear.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I saw in that waiting room.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yes, girl, it was really everything so access. And then
back in the day too, there were a lot of
girls who would get I mean there was there was
Ralph and this is the nineties Ralph, you know Ralph.
So a lot of the girls would get hormones from
Ralph and just from random people who procured them from wherever.
So we would kind of guess buy them on the street,
(08:38):
you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
The black market. And I remember International Crisis.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Which is the International Crisis. The legendary icon trans woman
performer who is one of Salvador Dali's music is trans Women.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And Crisis would have Roamy Hogg get the German hormones.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The German shots, girl, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And the call would go out and you had to
get to Crisis's house at a certain time to get
at least two boxes.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So, for those who don't know the German hormones allegedly
were you would be applaud. I don't know what other length.
You would be cut overnight with the German hormone.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Now, the mensises would follow you, screw pheromones. The mensises
would be after you on the street. The minute the
needle came out. They would be, hey, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I never got the German hormones. Those German hormones turned
the girls. And I think there was something about because
there was girls in the nineties were so beautiful, and
I'm wondering if it was the German it was German
shots that were like just turning the girls out.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And it was the wild, wild West, and we were
sort of left to our own devices to find our
own levels. But that collective of myself, Gina and Cody.
We had doctors I can't remember. Tina Wheeler was myself
and Gina's therapist, but there was another doctor that I found.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
How wonderful that you were going to therapy because a
lot of the girls didn't go to therapy back then.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It was a standard of care. And I can't remember
the therapist's name, but you had to go through a
certain time before the further steps of transition, whether it's
the medical or whatever. And we went through everything in
her office. It was just towards the end that I
was seeing her and it was the end of our
(10:42):
session and she's like, Oh, I have to get ready
for the children, and I'm like children And this was
like ninety two ish, maybe ninety three, and I think
she was one of the first to start with children
in therapy to set them on the road. Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
People act like trans care for kids is something new,
but she was doing it in nineteen ninety three, ninety two.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I was so taken aback. I fell into tears in
the elevator going downstairs because I was like, have we
come this far that we are going to allow a
child that comes to you in all honesty and all
(11:33):
sincerity that this is what is happening to me and
I can voice it. It just took me out for weeks.
I was like, oh my god, maybe the world will
change a sentilla.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And what if I had that when I was a child.
Before we leave Cody favorite Cody memory for you, having
known her, I just want, I do want to take
a moment. She's such an icon and I'm just so
glad I got to know her. And people should know
there's so many icons and legends that we don't know, Yes,
who we should know? Who shaped New York culture? Who
(12:12):
just changed people's lives? I mean, and so much of
trans and LGBTQ culture. It's oral traditions, right and having
that trans mother, having that that girlfriend who showed you
the rope so you went through it together, that kind
of chosen family. So for those people who don't know Cody,
go watch Our Schoolgirls of Doom. But what would you
(12:33):
want to say to people and about who Cody was?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Just her loving heart Back when we were roommates, there
was always this sort of melancholy about her. And then
one day I was doing the door somewhere and she
pulled up because she wanted to say hi, and this
(12:57):
guy got out of the car and I was like,
it's her boyfriend. She's like, she's like, oh, hi, how
are you? And I want to introduce you to my son.
And I was like, oh, you're kind of like and
she's like, no, this is my biological son. Yeah, And
(13:18):
I was like, exqueeze me.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Just to clarify. Before she transitioned, she had, I believe
was three sons with her, like high school girlfriend or something.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, pressure from her parents to sort of be heteronormative.
Right weeks later, we sat and we talked and she
told me because we only knew little snippets here and
there of what was happening, and she told me about
how she went to Vegas to try to make a
(13:53):
better life for the whole family, all of her, her
kids and their mom because she was a genius sort
of Cyndi lauper impersonator. And she went to Lakaja Fall, Vegas,
blah blah, built her career, built her name, and came
back and both families had shut her out of the
(14:18):
children's lives. And we were talking and then I turned
to her and said, no matter what, they did that
blood connection. They came and sought you out, and we
looked at each other and she was like, you know what,
(14:39):
You're right. All of the things that happened after the
separation kind of have to melt away, and we now
have to reconnect and heal wounds and become a family.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah. Yeah, so let's pass forward. I'm gonna jump around
a little bit. Two ninety two. So I'm a mooglair
file and a bit of a historian. But nineteen eighty two, I,
as I said, it was his first couture show. It
was the year that the first Fragrance Angel came out,
and it was a year that Too Funky came out.
And Too Funky is how I discovered Terry Muglair. I
(15:18):
was obsessed with the video, and you were in the
Too Funky video, but I did not know in the
version that was on MTV and VH one, your face
was not shown. The iconic beaded red cowboy chaps, I
mean iconic look and I want to talk some more
about that, but I didn't know. I didn't see your face.
(15:38):
And then it wasn't until years later that I knew
that that was you in the video and I just
kind of felt cheated, honestly, not knowing. I mean, nineteen
ninety two, I was in Indiana, I was in college.
It was a year after I graduated from high school.
And then I moved to New York in nineteen ninety three,
and I just felt like my life would have been
so different if I had known that there was a black
(16:00):
trans woman in George Michael's Too Funky video. I feel
anger and sadness and a lot of things not knowing that.
And years later I saw on mister Muglair's director's cut,
and you open that video and we see your face.
And then and then when I went to when I
was in Paris a year ago and I saw mister
Muglair's show, I was, you know, so excited just to
(16:21):
see the exhibit. And I was going through the exhibit
looking for you. You know, I saw the pieces, but
I didn't and I didn't see your face in that exhibit.
Maybe I didn't see that in one of the videos
of the shows. Maybe you were there, but I did
not see you. And I was looking for you, and
I was looking for your face. And then I when
and when In opened the show opened in Brooklyn, I
don't know if you know Casey Keedwallader, who's the Mouclair
creative director. Now I said, I said to Casey, I
(16:44):
was like, where's Connie, I said to Kate's where's Connie's face.
Part of it is because we didn't see your face
in George Michael's version of the video. And then you're like,
not in the in the exhibit, but in I want
to know what your life was like ninety ninety two.
I mean, you've told us a little bit about like
being in transition, but being in this huge video, but
(17:07):
your face isn't shown walking for Muglaire in these clothes.
I mean, the clothes are so exquisite, the construction, the sumptuous,
assumptuous and powerful, and then the drama that you brought
to the runway.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Okay, history, talk to me history. At the beginning of
the second day, when I got there, George Michael comes,
we were filming my part, and then the sort of
clash up the Titans started to happen because Terry wanted
(17:47):
the backstage bit and then for me to come out
on the runway so that you could see that pan
up shot. Yes, fight happens.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So for those who don't know, a little bit of
a backstory. The two Funky video with a video that
I was done for charity for them to raise money
for AIDS research, and everyone was donating their time and
apparently they had gone over budget. It was already over
a million dollars after the first day and people were
sort of freaking out, and George Michael was like, we're done.
Mister Muglair was like, We're not done. And then a
(18:19):
fi happened. Girl, Yeah, so this is why, and so
this is the fight she's alluding to. Yes, so on.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And Terry wanted atmosphere and then to use the shot
of me backstage as my face shot. We go to lunch,
we come back. Terry is like directing all of the
racks out and he was like, okay, we're leaving, and
we all turned to each other and like wait, what's
(18:46):
what what what?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And taking the clothes with us.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yes, and then we're all gathering our stuff and Linda
and Vachalisa comes over and says, Okay, are you going
to stay or are you going to leave? So we
were all like, okay, we're all going to leave. Linda
went back spoke with George we all met in the
(19:10):
middle and we all started to talk and say, you
know what, we are here for a larger cause. It
was ninety two. People were still dropping like flies. We
had all just come from funerals, all just come from
(19:31):
hospital rooms. I'll just come from waves of death and despair,
and we were trying to help. And both of them
felt their better angels and we started again. My face shot,
Terree wasn't going to give it up. He wanted it
(19:54):
for his version.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, so he was committed to that. But for whatever
reason in George's verse, he didn't it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Just he didn't have that face shot of me going
to the runway.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
He just wanted that looked to be shot that way
and didn't get your face on the runway, or.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
He wanted that pan upshot to be in shadow and
then I would lift my face at the end. But
we broke for lunch, so that shot wasn't taken. And
then the big clash of the Titans happened, so.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
It was because we broke for lunch. This is good
to know. I'm feeling a little bit better about the erasure,
but still not a lot better.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I think what came out before that was the Soup Dragons.
The Soup Dragon's video came out and it was called
a fine thing. It was on heavy rotation.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Were you in that video as well?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yes, Oh, I'm like maybe the second lead in that video,
and it's very Warhol Studio Factory vibe and Old Times
Square before it was Disney Fine. Okay, that was on
heavy rotation. But there was an objection because I was
(21:10):
in it, that it could not play in the afternoon
because I was trans and black.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
This is on MTV. On MTV, I I'm like, I'm
looking at I just looked at you in the video.
It's like, who would even.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Know it was considered to be harmful for children, Like
they would even know?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That's what I'm like, You're walking and you're so chic
and you've got this pink in the headband work a work, honeywork.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
It became a hit record, so they had to play
it off of Prime Time because it was being requested.
Everybody loved it. So I think once Too Funky came out,
I think that was also a thing that if you
put my face in it, it might be hampering in
(22:06):
when it can be played, how often it can be played.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But my question is we see Joey Arias and Lipsynca
their faces.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So it's not trans. Let it sink in not trans.
And by then my sort of insistence on not being
put into the drag category to make it easier for
the look of the moment, flavor of the moment, and
(22:36):
saying that I was trans gave me a reputation of
being difficult.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
To insist that I'm not a drag queen, I'm a
trans woman. Yeah, gave you a difficult This is important.
This is what folks need to know. All the lovely
young models who are modeling now that this is what
the girls went through. Yeah, so you can walk runways now,
this is what the girls went through. After a tiny
little break, We've got so much more for you. Let's
(23:15):
get back to it. So you were not only a
trans model? Who was you know? They didn't know and
then they knew. But you're also a black model. And
Terry loved black models. He always used black models and
loved Can you tell us how how did you come
(23:36):
to my model for mister Muglare.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It was like, at the end maybe eighty nine, I
had started to model for small designers in downtown New
York and the community and crisis.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
International crisis. If you don't know her, google her, Get
your life to continue.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Crisis was like, you know what you are meant for this,
You are meant for it, even if you don't see
it for yourself, even if you are so within your
cocoon of growing up and being so tortured. I was afraid,
(24:19):
I was apprehensive. I was black and I was trans.
You know, my predecessor was Terry Toy, blonde, white and
blue wide, and they gave her grace me.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
No. Terry Toy was a trans model who famously with
Steven Sprouse's Mused in the eighties. She modeled for several people, but.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Muclaire Chanelle Gautier. She went to Paris and she, like.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Push, was openly trans the whole time.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I think that's the difference because trans models have existed
throughout history, but we haven't always been able to be open,
and so Terry Toy really was a moment when a
model was able to be open.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, and gave space and room for me. Because when
I went to Paris, that was like I was already
halfway through my transition and I felt so good. I
did not feel crazy, I did not feel unworthy. So
(25:26):
why why Because they were there to tear you down anyway,
So I'm not going to give this to you to
tear me down.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So I'm on the danceport at the Paradise Garage and
this French gentleman comes over and says, do you model?
It's like, yeah, I'm modeled for like, you know, downtown
New York while by very little things. It's like, well,
if you are ever in Paris, look me up. He
(25:56):
gave me his business card. My favorite song came on
Maybe Grace Pull Up to the Bumper or Yoko Ono
Walking on Thin Ice. It was one of those, and
I lost my mind and ran to the dance board
that morning. When I got home afternoon, I should say,
(26:17):
because we did close the joint at like eleven thirty twelve,
I could not find the card. So you know. Desmond Cadogan, yes,
also a Terry Muglair model News we had met and
he was like, you really have to meet Terry, you
really have to come to Paris. I told him about
(26:38):
this guy and he's like, well, what did he look like.
It's like he was French, dark hair, blah blah, and
it's like, okay, give me a minute. So a couple
of months went by and I worked with Danilo and
Billy Beyond, and that was the debut of Billy Beyond's
paper Lashes.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, the Billy Beyond, the legendary makeup artist Danillo, legendary hairstyles.
For those people listening, let legendary, Like understand your history, okay,
go on.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So I took this wonderful picture. I can't remember the
name of the photographer, and I think Danilo showed that
to Terry. Cut to a couple of months later and
we are doing the first Suzanne barsh Love Ball and
I walked for body Map. So model for body Map
(27:37):
went downstairs and there was Terry Desmond and I think
somebody else dragged me over it. This is Connie, this
is who we are talking about. It was like, oh,
now I get it. So a couple of months later
they call and ask for pictures. And then a couple
(28:00):
of months later I was on the plane going to Paris.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And this I think was your first show eighty nine, ninety.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Eighty nine, ninety Fall Winter.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Fall Winter. I'm trying to remember the look that you wore.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
It was a chartruse, you know, those bell like blazer dresses.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
First time, I was like, okay, I will walk as
I think I should walk in high fashion parish. I
had three looks. First show I walk, I'm Munya, I
am Katushka, I am all of my heroes. And I
(28:43):
go backstage, break for lunch, come back. I have one outfit.
I was like, wait what. First I was disappointed, and
then I was like, you know what, screw them, screw you.
And I went out there in my one outfit and
(29:05):
I did everything and walk backwards and I walked backstage
and Terry is like, why didn't you do that in
the first place. That's what we wanted from you. We
wanted your energy, your Cleveland sort of kinetic energy. That's
(29:27):
what we wanted. That's what everybody was telling me about you.
And then you go and you do like what you
think is the.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Walk he led, Pat and he mom talks about it.
It's almost as it was like acting doing a Mooglership
because it shows were so theatrical. And what I love
about watching you walk in different shows of his is
that the walk was different every time because the look
was different. It was still Connie, but you it was acting,
(29:58):
it was performance. It was. It was drama everything.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yes, Norma Desmond Sunset Boulevard. You could not be swallowed
because those looks could easily swallow you. Yes, because you
can see it on certain people where it swallows them.
You had to come out.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You had to wear the clothes, the clothes not wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You embody it and make it sing.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, and you really did in such a beautiful way.
And you walked for several seasons from mister Mouglair.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I just discovered recently that you were also roommates with
mister Pearl. And for those who don't know, mister Pearl
did all the Corse Tree for mister Mouglair. The story
of how you ended up with a cowboy look? Can
you just tell that story? In the two Funky video
what Connie's wearing is this red beaded cowboy look with chaps.
It's just it's so iconic. It's on exhibit in Brooklyn Museum.
(30:54):
It is one of the most iconic pieces of fashion
history ever. And she got to wear it. Can you
tell us how that happened? It's such a great story.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
This was just before Cody moved in. Pearl had just
moved to New York. Had started to work with Newglare
and I think Galiano and certain other people. One of
my trips to Japan, there was a moscino sale and
I was always obsessed with that mosquito collection of the cowboy.
(31:27):
It was sort of Dallas and it was a beautiful
cowboy hat, and I was like, Oh, I'm going to
be in the desert in New Mexico. I'm going to
wear my cowboy hat. And I went to go shoot
with Terry in New Mexico. So I get out of
the trailer and Terry looks at me and you could
see the light bulb turn on. So I got back
(31:50):
to New York and Pearl had moved out, and moved
out he went around the corner basically, So the message
was to go over to Pearls. So I go over
to Pearls and pros like, Okay, this is what you're
going to wear. And I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Was it already in the making. Was it just a
sketch at the time? What was when you?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I think Pearl had a copy of the sketch okay,
and it was supposed to be for Naomi, but Naomi
couldn't do the fittings because I was waiste training back then,
you know, I could sort of take the pressure because
they wanted it to be as close to nineteen a
(32:34):
nineteen inch waist as possible. I think we got to
maybe twenty three, twenty two something like that. Wow. Because
that's also another thing about too funky. I could not breathe.
The person who laced me up laced me up from
the top down. You're supposed to breathe shallow through the
top of your chest, but I couldn't do that. So
(32:57):
I was on all fours in between shots, trying to
keep my head up so that I wouldn't pass out. Okay,
so we're at.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
This is I didn't know any of this. Thank you
for all these details. Girl, I'm living. I'm living. Okay,
go on.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
We're at the fittings, and everybody chipped in who knew
how to stitch. I mean I even did a couple
of the hearts that were on the brim of the hat.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You did some of the beating yourself, and.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Then there would be notes, oh, take this off, make this,
do that. Because that was the other thing. The amazing
thing about Newclare, the way things would grow and come
together and flourish and blossom, because when you would go
for fittings, you would see it like, what the hell
(33:50):
is that? It's a cage? What are they going to
do with that? And then by the end the day
before the show, it was beauty.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
I mean, I think people should understand how intricate this is.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And also the level of innovation with fabrications, of shaping
and cutting. There's this wonderful gift from fit where it's
all of the pieces come together to make one of
those wonderful blazers, and they're like one hundred pieces and
(34:28):
they all like sort of come together in the cartoon
and you have this wonderful blazer that is structured in
a way that you can put it on and you
feel nuclearized and you feel powerful. You feel the care,
(34:49):
research and love for the craft twenty pieces to come
to make that one curve.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
But it's genius though. The way it'll sit him on
the body, it's absolutely brilliant. I don't even know how
a mind would think, let me do this. He's a genius.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It was him and the women in the atalier, those seamstresses,
because that jacket I went in for the fitting and
they were like, and he's like, oh, let's put in
shoulder pads, and they all turned around and said no, mmm,
look at her in that jacket. She does not need
shoulder pads. And the way the sort of design just
(35:33):
came up like that, and I remember, I remember them
because it wasn't a real fitting unless you lost consciousness.
It wasn't It wasn't a good season at New Glare
if you did not pass the fuck out on the ped.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Stil because the corse tree was not fashion. I can't,
I can't do that. So you waist trained for a while.
How long did you do that? Because there's different things
about waste training, like right, is it safe? Is it whatever?
How long did you do that? Did you had to?
Were your organs rearranged? Did you have any negative health
outcomes from it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Or are you just no, just a little bit of
scarring okay, which took a while, and like a cocoa butter,
you know, nightly. But then Lauren, the wonderful Lauren Pine,
who's also in Too Funky, when they measure her waist
and they smack her with the measuring tape, she was
more into it than any of us and would say, okay,
(36:33):
you're getting scarring, get a silk wrap and wrap it first,
and then put on the corset. Get cellophane wrap your
waist and then you know, because I wanted to have
that hour glass shape. Yes, and I'm sort of like
(36:53):
you know, and the girls now have to thank the
girls then for doing the hard work. Yes, of a
Brazilian butt lift and this and that and the sucking
and a poll money.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And I interviewed Honey de John last week and we
were talking about the before the Brazilian butt lift. Since
the sixties, the trans girls were getting silicone. Yeah everywhere
so face boo, bibbs hips, booty.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, you're welcome, Nicki minaj.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Okay, it's that time again. A lot more is coming
though without further ado. There's I want to take it
back to boy Bar.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I love the story of how you ended up at
boy Bar. But so boy Bar was a legendary drag
cabaret on Saint Mark's Place from eight I think eighty
five five to ninety five or something, and you were
one of the original boy Bar beauties. Matthew Casten was
the brain child behind it and it was the shows
or just there's some some videos on YouTube, and they
(38:12):
were just iconic shows, and the boy Bar beauties were iconic.
There's some Wigstock the boy Bar beause being Wigstock, I
think in the Wigstock movie just for people to have
some references to go and look up. But talk to
us about boy Bar and what that experience was like.
There's so many wonderful stories. But that's where you came
out of your shell.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yes, I would not have made it to Paris and
the Paris Runways if it wasn't for Boybar. It rebuilt me.
It rebuilt my because I was in a shell.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
You were in Brooklyn, I mean just a little bit.
You were very bullied as a child, raised in Brooklyn
and finally found your way to New York antique boutique
Glamor Moore started going out and then one day you
met Matthew and he said he was going to be starting.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yes, this cabaret, and we talked about fashion and everything.
You know when you meet someone and you connect immediately. Yes,
that's what happened that night. The stars truly had a line.
And the evening ended and we were going to the subway.
(39:23):
My train came first and I said, congratulations, I want
to come and see one of the shows, blah blah blah.
And as the door is closing, he's like, what do
you mean you're going to come to see one of
the shows? You are going to be in them? The
doors closed and the train pulled off, and I was like,
what did that white man just say?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
But you had not been performing?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
No, so you had not been performing. And what I
what I know about you as a performer is like
cartwheels and splits, and like, where did all they come from?
Did you train as a dancer? Did you? I mean,
because you are you're a dancer.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
I am a child of the Late late late late
late Late Show, all of the golden era of Hollywood musicals.
I watched intently because it was an escape from the
break daily and I sort of went into that world
(40:28):
and could dream and I danced around the living room
and it's like, oh I can do that, Oh I
can do that. Then started to watch The Share Show
and Carol Burnett and it was all of these sort
of touchstones of comedy and dance and performing that was
(40:50):
sort of inside of me.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
You absorbed all of them, Yes, you absorbed all of them.
And then that first night at boybas Matthew pushes you
out and then it just all comes out.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah. But he literally had to push me out on
that stage. And then I hit the stage and the
spotlights hit me in the eyes and I couldn't see anybody,
and I was like, I can't see anybody. I can
do anything.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
What did you do in your living room? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, And it all came pouring out. M A couple
of months later, we were all famous below fourteenth Street,
and I was like, wait, you know, it was just
everything that I had loved that gave me joy and
allowed me to continue on in such a violent kind
(41:44):
of place, I could let it pour out and I
could give it to an audience, and in that time,
the audience really needed it because it was, you know,
the hide up the play. And I think why also
(42:05):
we connected was that it was live. We spoke to
what was happening daily in the news in the world,
and we sort of sent it up and lampooned it
and gave our audience some love, much needed love.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
You have some videos of the Old Boy Boar shows,
and they were like so many different kinds of shows,
but love of them were parodies. There would be voiceover
of dialogue that you would live think to. There were themes.
They were crazy. I mean, I'm thinking space cunts is
that was that something that.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
That was the brainchild of David Darrymple, famous wonderful designer,
and Mona Foot, our wonderful Mona Foot. That was their brain.
There was the sixties musical and it starred International Crisis
Jesus Christ as superstar.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yes, I heard about this one.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
There was the Frankenstein Missus Frankenstein David Glyman Moore I
think was Frankenstein and I was the bride of Frankenstein.
Beetlejuice had come out and we had done this wonderful,
beautiful show that was sort of set in the waiting room.
When they die and they go to that waiting room.
(43:26):
It was all set in that waiting room, the Leona
Helmsley story when David was Leona Helmsley. It was just
like an incredible.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I love that we're talking about the specifics of this
show so that people can understand what I mean. It's
hard to quantify what it means when you're in the
audience and you're experiencing culture being made. And I think
what folks should understand about Downtown Eats Village, New York
in the eighties. Is that culture or was being made
(44:01):
there that artist, major artist, Basquiad, Keith Haring, Madonna, Warhol,
they were.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
All David Bowie, David Bowie.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
They were going to these clubs and getting inspiration. Klaus Nomay.
There was a performance art thing going on. I think
of John Sex, you know, Pyramid and so there was
this art thing going on that was intersecting with Drag.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Lady Bunny and Happy Face and Taboo at the Pyramid.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
And in the beginnings of WISDOC.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, all major culture, major culture that shifted people and
brought community together. It was about community, but it was
also culture being created that trickled up into higher culture
that trickled into museums. So when we talk about this
boy bar moment, it's important to understand it in a
(44:54):
cultural context of this is where people were going for
inspiration for fashion, inspiration for is the way a culture
was made. Yeah, what is the biggest takeaway for you
from the boy that boy Bar era.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It was such a special time and Matthew wanted to
take drag out of it, being sort of second class
citizen in the entertainment lexicon of that time. You wanted
us to be polished, beautiful and capable, capable of doing
(45:36):
not just lip sync, but am seeing and singing and
going out and making it a larger a larger voice
in the world. And was always so kind of protective
of us because what was happening outside was catastrophic and
(46:03):
we got to see our heroes before they passed, giving
me a view onto transness and it not being so
far away, not being behind the looking glass. We got
(46:24):
to witness what the world was and to turn it
on its ear. What I carry away from that is
the importance of in the moment live performance. You are
there and you can connect and you can exchange with
(46:48):
a live audience, that exchange of laughter or applause when
you're in that moment, and to share it with that
audience that was so in need of relief and love.
That's what I cherished the most about it.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh my god, that was everything right, That was everything
that gave me my full entire life. Thank you, Connie.
It was so good that we had to make it
a two parter. There was so much information, so in
just a few short days, Part two of my conversation
with the Legend the Icon Connie Fleming will be dropping
(47:32):
in the meantime. Be sure to check out all of
our show notes. So throughout that conversation, I was like,
google this, check this out. We have links to almost
everything I reference. Brooke turned it shut out to our
producer Brooke. Now, in the next half, we talk about
Connie's life as a nightclub maven and an infamous New
(47:53):
York City door person. We talked more about a runway
career and working with the legend Vivian Westwood. We talk
more for God and transhearstory, juicy behind the scene details
of the Paris runway with a certain supermodel girl. It's giving,
it's tea, it's everything and more. If you can believe it,
(48:14):
just walk in and live in history. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
Thank you so much everyone for listening. I hope you
are getting your life as much as I am. Please rate, review,
subscribe and share with everyone you know. You can find
me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox or should
I say Instagram and X at Laverne Cox and on
(48:37):
Facebook at Laverne Cox for reel Until next time, stay
in the Love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production
of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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