June 3, 2021 • 50 mins
Dating as a trans woman can be complicated, frustrating and even dangerous. Longtime friend, actress and writer Jen Richards, joins Laverne for a very candid truth-only conversation. Together they dish on what they have learned over the years, like why some men are attracted to trans women and why so many men have a hard time being honest about their attraction. Of course they go deep, and Jen shares what she thinks is the biggest kept secret about trans women, opens up about why she thought she could never be loved, and then shares her amazing news. Get the tissues. //
You might know Jen Richards from her Emmy nominated short series, Her Story. You can also see her in the HBO series, Mrs. Fletcher, and in the Netflix documentary Disclosure, which was executive produced by Laverne. Currently she can be seen on the CBS primetime thriller Clarice. //
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show of Reduction of shondaland
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. It is the
single biggest kept secret is a straight mails desire for
transpa And because this happenings in the dark allow the
general public to continue assuming that only gay men would
(00:23):
like a transpoman, that this giant misconception is just allowed
to continue to to fester and we all fall victim
too it. So what's it going to take to change that?
That's the question I always have. Hello everyone, and welcome
to the Laverne Cox Show. Now, I wanted to have
(00:45):
a series of conversations about dating and some of its
challenges for very personal reasons. Finding love has been really
challenging part of my life for my entire adult life.
Part of it is because I'm really picky and I
don't feel a genuine connection to a lot of people.
But dating is also challenging for many of us for
(01:08):
any number of reasons. But I'm keenly aware that the
challenges are different for black women, for women over forty,
and for trans women, all categories I currently inhabit. So
today I want to focus on the challenges of dating
as a trans woman. This is something I talked to
my trans girlfriends about all the time, but today I
(01:30):
wanted to chat with someone who I know will make
me think differently about this and hopefully will give you
a lot to think about as well. Her name is
Jin Richards. Jen as a trans woman, and she's so
smart and thoughtful and always makes me think about various
subjects in ways I hadn't before. Jin Richards is an actress, writer,
and producer. You might know her from her Emmy nominated
(01:51):
short series Her Story, which is absolutely brilliant. You must
watch it if you haven't. She has received critical acclaim
for acting work in the net Links revival of Tales
from the City. You can also see her in the
HBO series Mrs Fletcher and in the Netflix documentary Disclosure,
which I happen to have executive produced. She is currently
a regular on the thriller crime drama Clarisse on CBS.
(02:15):
Please enjoy my conversation with Gin Richards. Hello Jin Richards,
and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Girl?
Things have been good and they're only getting better, which
is a nice feeling. So exciting. That is so exciting.
So I am doing a series where I look at dating,
(02:37):
love and relationships from different lenses, and when I thought
about having a conversation about dating as a trans woman,
and I knew I wanted to talk to you for
a lot of different reasons. But I want to start
with a moment from Disclosure for those listeners who don't know.
Disclosure is a documentary executive produced that is available on
(02:58):
Netflix that looks at the history of trans representation on screen.
And Jin is interviewed in that documentary, and there's a
moment in Disclosure when Jin is reacting to a scene
from the E reality series I Am Kate and Dad
is in a support group for parents of trans kids.
(03:22):
The dad says in the group, if you have a
transgender kid, you are living with a unicorn, an amazing
human being. To be next to someone so brave, so cool,
so close to themselves. Avery was on point from h
to the father says, and Avery is their trans kid.
And then Jin says in reaction to that, I've never
(03:42):
seen myself the way that father saw his own child.
I've never looked at myself with a kind of love, respect,
and awe that father had for his own child. No
one looked at me that way. How could I look
at me that way? I had to see it, and
now that I have, I want that. The vulnerability of
(04:04):
that moment is so beautiful and makes me cry every
time because for me, that's just like what everybody wants,
That's what every human being wants. That's like the human experience.
And I was prepping for this and I saw on
Instagram that you're now engaged. I am so can I
glean now that you have had that or you're experiencing
(04:25):
like being looked at and seeing that way? Is that
talk to me? Jane Richard's profoundly so profoundly so. And
it is more wonderful and deeply transformative than I could
have possibly anticipated. And there's an interesting on coincidence in
that the day that my now fiance first told me
(04:47):
that she loved me was a couple of hours after
we saw the very first screening of Disclosure. Oh my god,
that is really for me, the cruxt of it. I
think that sense of being deeply seen and known and
loved as our authentic self is what we all want.
And I think that is why I wanted to have
(05:08):
this series about love, and one of the reasons I
want to talk to you specifically, not just because you're brilliant,
but because you've dated men and you've dated women in
the past. I used to joke that because I was
bisexual as a boy and dated gay men and straight women,
and have stayed bisexual as a trans woman and have
dated lesbians and straight men and have also dated on
(05:29):
binary and trans people along the way, that I've hit
the lgbt Q bingo card. I've been every letter, and
I've had every possible combination of relationship. I want to
talk about the differences for you and your own experiences
dating men, dating women, dating other trans folks, But I
just want to get into how did you meet your fiance?
Do you want to share it with this a little bit?
Because I think we all want to know how this
(05:51):
happens and we want to celebrate this love with you.
And I'm always excited to share our story and I'm
still very much in the throes of it. We met
through a dating nap. It's a slightly unusual one called
lex which came out. It was originally an Instagram account,
and what it was is that people posted old school personals,
so just like in the newspapers, you'd have a little
(06:12):
headline and maybe ten sentences of texts like who you
are and what you're in search of. There was no pictures,
There was no links to social media or anything. It
was just very, very simple. And I had tried all
the other dating napps before with with you know a
little to no success as an understatement, and I like
the simplicity of this ad. So there's no photos on it.
(06:32):
It's an old school yep, just a personal wow. There
is an option in a post where you can link
to your Instagram if you want to. I did not
do that. Uh. And the larger context of this is
that I had stopped dating for a little over three
years and hadn't been in a serious relationship for almost
eight Why did you stop dating? It was a number
(06:56):
of reasons. I without revealing too much, I'll say that
I had gotten into some self destructive habits and then
it finally confronted those and gone through a healing process,
and in that space felt like I had to focus
on that kind of internal work. Then after a while,
just the fear set in and I didn't know how
to date or have sex without the crutches that I
(07:17):
was accustomed to, and so it took a while, but
there was also this additional justification that I didn't really
have steady income. I was living in people's guest rooms
and couches in l A for three years. All my
stuff was in storage. It's not a great condition under
which to date. And then when I finally found some
success and got my own place and got out of debt,
(07:38):
it was like, okay, this is You've got no excuses,
so now it's time to start dating. So I posted
this ad just as let's see what happens and and
got some nice responses, including one from this woman who
lived in Phoenix, which I ignored because one of the
rules for myself as I'm not dating people that live
at his state, So I ignored her message, but she
kept on in a gentle way. Following up and around
(08:01):
the same time, I was back in therapy, specifically with
the goal of wanting to become okay with dating again,
And on Friday morning, my therapist said, do you even
want Do you want to be partner? Do you want
to be married? Do you want to have a long
term relationship? And I answered, quite honestly that I don't
know because I can't visualize that person. To then make
(08:23):
the judgment. I can't imagine a person who would want
to spend the rest of their life with me, like
holy and completely, like it's beyond my imaginative capacity, So
I can't even picture it to then say do I
want this picture or not? Can I apology there? Just
you can't imagine a person wanting to spend the rest
of their life with you? Can you what's going on there?
(08:44):
That's howthot we could escape by that law because I
feel like that's related to what you said in the
disclosure documentary that you hadn't seen, Like RuPaul says how
you're gonna love somebody else if you don't love yourself
that whole piece and Berne Brown's definition of love is
the same, and we can only love others as much
we love ourself. Do you think that's what that was about?
Or it's certainly wrapped up in that. And I think
(09:06):
transnance is a big part of it as well. It's
very hard to date as a trans woman, and there
are very few models for what a healthy relationship looks
like with the trans person involved. I hadn't seen it,
and I can think of one friend who has been
(09:26):
in a steady relationship the whole time that I've known
or one trans woman. That's a lot of transmitt but
but not trans women. So I just didn't see how
it could work. And that's built on top of a
kind of bedrock of of shame and self hatred that
I think comes with being transfer all the ways that
we're reflected back as monstrous and abject. You combine that
(09:49):
image with with the lack of positive role models, and
then built on the kinds of of shame and self
consciousness that comes I think with just being a human
and like even pre transitioned as a young so news
still figure themselves out and was closeted trends and all
those edifices that we've built up in our mind to
to prove to ourselves were unworthy are hard to break
down and it takes a lot of effort. So I
(10:12):
felt unlovable. Was it was the bottom line of that,
And so I told my therapist this and just okay,
we're gonna let's work on that. Every single morning. First thing,
I sit down with my tea and write out three
pages Longhand, which comes out of Julia Cameron's The Artist Way,
and I work out a lot of my ideas and
issues on the page. And so the next morning, and
oddly enough, this was the first time I had ever
(10:33):
done this. I said, if there were a person out there,
like I'm going to brag it off the assumption that
I've carried so far that there is no such person.
But if there were, if there were a person who
could love me, what kinds of qualities would I want
a partner? And I wrote them out, was very specific,
and then I think it was about five hours later
(10:56):
Becca and I started messaging back and forth on the app,
and she turned out to be literally every single thing
I said I wanted on that journal page. It's almost
as if, like I just the universe are just waiting
for me to show up to say, yeah, okay, I'm ready,
I'm worthy, Like, okay, good, We've got somebody for you.
We're just waiting for you. I think I was thinking too,
that when you declared that you wanted to it felt
(11:18):
like this statement of intention that very much went out
into the universe right in a really beautiful, specific way.
I think there's this the piece of like personal responsibility,
what's my part in it? What can I control right
my perception in my behavior? And then there's systemic things,
and so I love that there's the space of manifesting.
Before I met my most recent X, I made a
(11:41):
list of all the qualities I wanted a man, and
when I met my last boyfriend, he had all those
qualities as well. We're no longer together, so still he
was the right person at the right time, and he
had what you needed in that moment, absolutely, and I
think there was the piece of being ready. And so
I think that because I think for trans folks, of
(12:02):
all transman, trans women, non binary people, and probably anyone
who's marginalized, believing that you're worthy of the love. Because
for me, in my last relationship, at the beginning of it,
when we were getting serious and he was just there
and present and amazing, I just couldn't believe that it
was real because I had never experienced it before. I
had a lot of attachment issues. I was just like
I was waiting for the other shooter drop and he
(12:24):
kept through his actions assuring me that he wasn't going anywhere,
that he was indeed all in. And I had done
enough work on myself in therapy and other practices to
be able to sit with the discomfort of like, oh
my god, this is real, because it was the kind
of there was something cruciating about it. Is if love
is wonderful. But in the beginning, I was just like,
(12:46):
oh my god, this feels it felt awful because I
think because of the trauma, because of the shame, because
there's a part of me that still felt like I
wasn't worthy, But enough of me felt like I was
worthy of it and deserved to receive the love. I
was able to be present forward and to receive it.
Have you felt throughout your process with your fiancee that
you had done enough work? Or is are you in
(13:09):
process with being able to fully receive the love? Because
the gift, but if we don't feel worthy of it,
we can't receive it. Where are you with all that?
I don't know how much of it is the work
that I had put in up until that point, and
how much is what's unique about my dynamic Rebecca and
what's unique about her as a partner. But yeah, it
quickly wasn't an issue. I think once you know, within
(13:30):
the first month, once we got over the whole. Do
you like me as much as I like you? Is
this moving forward? Is this what we both want? We
were both just all in. It was the end of
our second date. I wrote my journal that morning. As
she left, she was going back to Arizona, like, this
is it. I'm done, this is my person, and I'm
all in. And I haven't had a single wavering doubt
(13:53):
since then. And we've been together, hold up in a
house together during the lockdown, and I still love her
more every day and I don't think that's ever going
to change. Maybe, particularly as a writer, I have a
kind of acute sense for in an aversion to any
kind of like cliches and tropes, and certainly you know
that the kind of great love story that when you
(14:14):
meet someone you know when it's the right person, it's
all easy and it works out like all these tropes
I had heard. I had a like a willing suspension
of disbelief. Okay, I've seen it out in the world
enough in real life and storytelling that I believe that's
a possibility, but I don't think that's in the cards
for me. And that feeling came first, and then there
was an intellectual justification of it, you know, like I'm
a very I'm a difficult person, I'm perversely independent, I'm
(14:37):
very very much in my head I'm extremely busy, I'm
trans I have some other stuff about my my past
that can be difficult for a partner to deal with.
I can intellectually justify it all these ways, but ultimately
it was really just that feeling of feeling unloved was
at the base of it. And so as much as
I agree with this whole notion that you do have
to love yourself before you can be loved, at the
(14:58):
same time, having someone see you truly and love you
makes it much easier for you to love yourself. I
don't think it's like an either or. I think it's
a kind of spiral of the two working together. Because
once I met Becca and I started to become loved,
and she's a very powerful partner, like that's for her,
it's very much what defines her identity. She likes being
(15:20):
a partner. She's always wanted to be a wife. She
wants to love someone and support them completely, and to
be loved in that way really broke down all my
very high walls. And then all of a sudden those
cliches became just very true and very obvious in a
way that's I sometimes feel staggeringly basic. And then in
one sense, it goes true love. Uh and in the
(15:43):
sense it really there's a reason. It is one of
the most profound aspects of life and the subject and
object of most of our fairy tales and most profound longings.
It's a powerful thing to be loved, absolutely, and I
think it heals. I think love is everything. What someone
said to me years ago when I started a specific
process of my own healing, They said to me, I'm
(16:04):
going to love you till you learn to love yourself.
And it wasn't a romantic love. It was a love
of healing, and that was part of my process and
support groups and with people where I learned that I
was lovable and I learned how to really be intimate
with someone. And I think that work we have to do.
I think everyone has to do it, but I think
for trans people, because we live in a world that
(16:26):
is really really cruel to us and just constantly has
to invalidate us in our feelings and who we are,
that there's a lot of us have a lot of
trauma that we have to do really specific work so
that we can get to the space of worthiness. A
specific example from the first night we spent together, and
I have to do all of my normal nighttime routine
stuff that I'm I would typically be afraid for anyone
(16:49):
else to see. And I had learned this kind of
like shame over the work of maintaining femininity. So you
know that at night, having to pull my hair back,
take off all my makeup, on my moisturizer, I wear
a nasal strip, debris that night, and all all these
kinds of things that I need in order to be
at my best. I was also embarrassed by and I
never wanted a partner to see that. And the most
(17:11):
I hoped for is maybe I'll meet someone who it
doesn't bother them too much. So the very first night
with with Becca, I had to start doing this stuff
and it was out of the SETSI is because I
had to shoot the next morning, so I couldn't skip
that step. And I was kind of sheepish, and I
began my process and then she sat there and stared
at me, and then she confessed. Because she's very she's
(17:32):
a masculine gold star lesbian like has just always loved
feminine women since she was a child. She like one
of her great joys in life is to watch a
woman do that process, to put on her makeup and
take off her makeup and do her skin. And she
was turned on. She was enraptured and enriched by watching
(17:53):
me do that process. So at best I had hoped
for maybe someone could tolerate this aspect of my life,
and instead I found someone who loves it and who
wants that. And that's the kind of possibilities, Like, Wow,
there's so much more. We can go, so much beyond
acceptance and as someone who sees you specifically and loves
that about you, And and then that dynamic just kept
(18:13):
repeating on different scales for the first few months of
our dating. That's absolutely incredible. So you've also dated men,
and I really wanted to, and I've only dated men
this gender men, I have no I'm not any kind
of effectually fluid, just strictly, I have to Laverna. I'm
start didn't but I have to leave. That could made
(18:34):
me promise that I would again ask you to please
consider becoming a lesbian. Leslians really want you to be lesbian.
You have a lot of lesbian fans, a lot of
like kind of masculine leaning lesbians who love your femininity
and glamour, and they just really want and they would
(18:58):
tell you that a good lesbian can do everything a
man can do and more. That's incredible. I even with
this man, I'm super picky. That's like, that mean I
need to like I need to receive that in this
moment um. That's beautiful. We'll tell Becca thank you. And
I think I were lesbian I because men have been
(19:18):
very frustrating for me. If I were lesbian or any
kind of tendency in that direction, I think I would
go there. But it's just not my tea. Oh. If
there's any proof that we don't choose our sexuality, it's
that all straight women would go lesbian if they had
the choice. Yeah, this is a good time to take
a little break. We'll be right back though. Alrighty, let's
(19:49):
get back to it. So I wanted to talk to
you about for you your experiences dating man, and I
don't I don't want to generalize, but I find that
for those of us who do who are trans women
who date men, oh girl, it is like really a
whole set of issues and struggles and complications that leads
(20:15):
being identified or trans women who date women just it's
not the same experience. What do you what do you
think girl having been good? Lord, Like, how do we
even begin to unpack that? In my experience that I'd
say upwards of of the men I've ever been with
our garden variety straight, they've never dated men. They have
no interest in men. They like women, and some of
(20:35):
those women include trans women. But every single one of
them is terrified that other people are going to think
that they're gay because they're dating a trans woman. You know,
for a while, I went through a very to put it,
mildly promiscuous face. I slept with me too. No shame here,
I've lived. We both lived, honey, Yes, we have lived.
(20:58):
I think it's a common thing. I think it's a
common thing. I think it was a similar place in
your trangestion that it was in mind, which is it's
kind of early. It's when you've suddenly become attractive for
the first time and men want you, and it's so
incredibly affirming, particularly when you're still figuring out what kind
of woman you are to like, have straight men want you?
Is is? It's really juicy. It has a lot of power,
(21:19):
and but I can never turn off my kind of intellectual,
sociological brain. And I asked every single man I slept
with how you became interested in trans women? And what
is your interest and trans women? And I learned a
lot and I've got a fairly sizeable case study. What
if they say, girl, what if they say, what is
the top three things they said? Because they're saying the
same things over and over again. I do this too,
(21:40):
By the way, I'm always curious. Excellent, it's O great. Okay, First,
it's interesting to me that literally all but one man
came to trans woman in the same way. Half of
them that tended to be the older half had met
some woman at some point, been attracted to her, flirted
with or whatever, and then found out she was trans.
They didn't go through with it then, but then it
got stuck in their head, and then they later started
seeking out trans women. The other half was through pornography,
(22:02):
because it's so easy to find online porn. Now you're
in the privacy of your own room, there's no one
to judge you. So they started exploring things, and that
novelty leads them to trans Then they get fixated and
then they seek us out. The one exception, and this
is why I think this point is interesting. The one
exception was this man who just kind of shrugged it
off and said, I grew up in San Francisco, so
they were just around. Like to him, it was like
(22:22):
a redhead or like a you know, a fat girl.
It was just like it was just another variety of
woman that he was accustomed to, and so he felt
no shame about it. For him, it was just very
much like that, they're women I've seen around. It's no
big deal that fascinated me as far as what they like.
And it turns out this is my experience with lesbians too,
So I think it really does say something. The number
one thing is it's the femininity of trans women. It's
(22:45):
it's kind of easy to understand because and frankly, a
lot of the men that I used to sleep with
were married, and a lot of them had the same
story of when they first got married, their wife was
like really feminine, beautiful and were lingerie and and was
sexy and that was part of their life. And then
over time they became mothers, they became more casual, they
became just regular women. And these men still crave that
(23:05):
femininity and that kind of thrill and the way that
it elicits male desire. But also that's been true of
the lesbians. Like the lesbians I've dated, all the ones
who have been attracted to me and have come on
to me tended to be masculine the center, and lesbians
who like femininity, they crave femininity, that's what they love
and a woman, So that's overridingly the major thing that
(23:26):
attracts people. Beyond that, there is and this is where
I've been thinking a lot about this, about where you
and I are slight outliers amongst our circles, and that
you and I are quite discreet about our bodies and
things that we do with them. And I think that
(23:46):
might be a generational thing because we're the same age.
You know, we didn't grow up on the internet, whereas
kids today they post pictures of themselves like whole transition timelines,
and they're open about everything. That's like a horrifying thought
to me. Like I'm very private, and so I'm always
a little bit head attempt to discuss it, but i
will say that, um, I hate talking about the stuff.
(24:09):
I think I know where you're going with this. That
a lot of the reasons straight age and affect men
seek us out or for very specific sexual reasons, for
very specific body parts that some trans people have in
some trans people don't, and for very specific sexual acts.
So it's like, how do we have this conversation about
dating sex wat straight men or into trans women without
(24:31):
I think for me the issue is not contributing to
the further objectification of trans bodies. And I think for me,
a sex act is not gendered. In a sex act
doesn't like sort of denote someone's sexual orientation. I guess
that's a liberal sort of assumption about sex acts. And
other people think that a sex act means something very
(24:51):
specific about someone, right, It's like you said, it's a
physical act. It's just bodily pleasure. It doesn't like what
does it matter? But these aren't say man you'll see
on Twitter who say I won't wash between my cheeks
in the shower because it's gay. Like there's such profound
right absolutely, And there's this whole thing on Twitter that's
(25:14):
kind of recurringin of is it gay? Hey guys, is
it gay to X Y and Z? Is a gay?
To eat a banana? Is gay? Because men are so straight,
men are so terrified of being seen as gay and
less masculine, which it points to a whole bigger issue
around misogyny and patriarchy. If a straights, this man has
his straights, this wife put something in his butt, he's
(25:35):
somehow gay. The insanity of that, on the face of it,
that like a physical act between a man and a
woman can somehow change a person's identity. I think the
emphasis that we put on identity, the success of that
is fracturing, and I think trans people are part of
that fracturing, And then part of the reaction against trans
people is because of the fear that comes with that fracturing.
(25:57):
The fact is that sexual orientation as identity is a
very new concept. It's maybe less than a hundred years old.
For most of human history, people sleep with people, and
men sometimes sleep with men and sometimes sleep with women
and vice versa. And there was never any sense of, oh,
this person is gay. It's they might do a gay thing,
(26:19):
they might have sex men, but then marry a woman.
It wasn't the static identity. And I understand, like I
understand that aspect of identity politics, that it helps us
find our community and look at these kind of stress
points and systemic systems of oppression. But still our identities
aren't that static for the most part, and it goes
both ways. We're talking about straight men's fear. But I
(26:41):
remember once I was with some gay men and this
one guy sheepishly admitted that he is attracted to women
and used to date women, but he felt that once
he came out as gay and it became such an
important part of his identity in this community that he
had to shut down that part of himself that he
felt like other gay men in his circle wouldn't consider
(27:02):
him one of them if he also dated women. We
really want to put people in this like very limiting camp,
and it affects everyone. It prevents us all from having
a greater range of experiences and ways of loving and
being loved. That's so deep. A friend of mine who
is who identifies as gay, he's a gay man of
(27:24):
known this friend forever. He sleeps with women as well,
And for him, he identifies as gay because ultimately he
wants to love another man and be in a loving
relationship with another man, but his sexuality is more fluid,
and so that's kind of how he navigates. And then
my brother called himself be practicing homosexual because he prefers
(27:45):
the idea of practice to orientation, so that there when
it comes to sexuality. For him, it's not about identity.
So there's so many different ways of looking at sexuality
and it's complicated, And these conversations have been happening for decades,
but a lot of straight identified men who find themselves
are tried to trans women are not engaged in these conversations.
(28:05):
But I think a larger conversation around homophobia, and like
that's a really big piece of this whole conversation that
we have to have around dating trans folks and like homophobia. Right, Like,
what I realized is that if any man dates me,
at least publicly, he has to be really comfortable with
people assuming he's gay, because the womanhood of trans women
(28:27):
is often disavowed, is invalidated, and so because so many
people don't think they trans women are women, they assume
that the men who date us must be gay. Right.
For years, I dated a guy who never would have
ever claimed me I thought I was in love with him,
and I'm glad I was able to get myself out
of that. But there's so many women that I've talked
to for the years who've been in situations like that
(28:49):
with men that they were in love with who would
never claim them publicly. And certainly, what I've learned is
have to make different choices, right, like, what's my part
in this? I have to choose different kinds of men,
and certain things need to be unaccemptable. That's exactly right.
I think it's a single biggest issue with trans women.
I think it's exactly the thing that that is the
biggest problem with as I've talked about disclosure, with casting
(29:12):
six men as trans women. I think it's a thing
that underlies the violence against trans women. I mean to me,
I always think about the case of Mercedes Williamson, who
for for those who don't know, the short version is,
and I'll spare some of the worst details, but this
young trans woman was found bludgeon to death. This young
man was quickly caught and he told the police that
(29:34):
he had met Mercedes online, didn't know she was trans
until they were together, and he put his hand up
her skirt. He blacked out, and the next thing he knows,
he's standing over her dead body. And that particular narrative,
which would be called the trans panic defense, is admissible,
and many courts and men could have been able to
get away with murder just by simply claiming I didn't
know she was trans, and that like caused such a
(29:55):
crisis in me. I acted out of violence, and with
no one, even the victim it speak up and say
that wasn't the case. And what's unique about Mercedes case
is that pretty soon thereafter the man who killed her
actually tearfully confessed, No, that's not that's not the story.
In fact, we've been dating for six months. I was
very much in love with her, but he was part
(30:16):
of a gang, frankly, and the gang was very homophobic,
and when one of his friends found out that he
was dating a trans woman, there was exactly what we said,
this assumption that means he's gay and we're gonna have
to hurt him, And rather than face that, he destroyed
the thing that created that dissonance, and helm he destroyed Mercedes,
(30:38):
this woman he loved and now profoundly regrets it. And
so this is another one of those cases where the
guy was straight, but the fear that he was going
to be seen as gay and other men's judgment that
he was gay for being with a trans woman led
him to this incredible violence. And I think we face
a kind of mini version of that crisis every time
we date a man. That's been my experience. But I
(30:59):
think with under neath all this is that men need
to get over their homophobia. Oh my god, yes, because
really it's like transphobia and homophobia and then become so
inextricably linked to me, and people are like so terrified
that somebody might think that they're gay, and like they
have shame around that. If you think about that, it's
absolutely ridiculous, it really is, But it just it points
(31:22):
to a wider social context where I mean, we're having
a crisis of masculinity. I would say globally really, but
particularly in this country. I mean, Trump is very much
an embodiment of this kind of misogynistic, patriarchal reaction against
the breaking down of gender norms. And there is a
kind of truth in which that so much of our
society is built upon this foundational binary of male and
(31:46):
female and knowing who you are and where you belong.
It's hard for anyone to figure out who you are
and where you belong, and so society tells you, at
the very least, no matter what else, like your male
and therefore you can do X, Y and Z, and
you should behave a B and C that there's a
certain kind of I think for people like you and
I have maybe like it's really scary, uh, and we
(32:07):
want to escape those confines. But I think for average
person that's really comforting to know, Okay, this is how
I behave, these are the things I'm allowed to do,
and the people I date are going to be like this.
And those two don't threaten each other. They support each other.
Feminine women and masculine men, like I'm going to be
the bread owner and you're going to be the emotional
and support and the homemaker. Like we all we know
(32:27):
where we stand, and that's really comforting. And whereas diarity as,
I think trans people like you and I actually don't
threaten that in most ways. But I think trans people
in general, the idea that you could be born into
one side of this and then move to the other
or not fit in or disrupt these kind of power
norms is threatening to the entire worldview, And for me,
it's the only way to understand why there's such intense
(32:49):
vitriol and such an emotional intensity around trans people. I
think those ideas certainly exist, but the lived experiences that
people's lives throughout history at Lee always challenged those ideas
that like men are supposed to do this, women are
supposed to do this, and I think that is the
sort of sad reality. I mean, what keep has come
up a lot on this podcast is like that crisis
(33:11):
of masculinity and that this patriarchal sort of embrace the
traditional masculinity is actually not really doing man any favorites.
And I think there's a betrayal that happens right, especially
for white men. I think straight white men, is that
you're supposed to be this and this and this. Then
all of a sudden, you don't have a job to
take care of your family, and you can't provide and
all the things that you were told that you're supposed
(33:33):
to be because you're a man, you're not able to fulfill.
And instead of like questioning all those things that they
were taught about who they were supposed to be, it's
who is to blame for this? Like who do I
lash out at? And I think that explains a lot
of the phenomenon of forty five. Right, I'm gonna lash
out at trans people, I'm gonna lash out at immigrants,
I'm gonna lash out it you know, automation and shipping
(33:54):
jobs overseas and like all of these things instead of
questioning some people are questioning those systems. But I think
the system of masculinity and patriarchy is one of those
things that I would encourage more straight identify this gender
men to be in question of to get to a
place of freedom, to get to a more of a
place of like, let and go those expectations so you
(34:17):
can live more authentically. That's something I've been saying for
years around gender. But I think that I really believe
that when we can let go of the expectations that
sort of exist around that stuff, we can just be
I always think about friends Finans Wretched of the Earth
and his kind of discussion of the way that an
oppressor becomes oppressed themselves through their act of oppressing, You
(34:37):
get trapped in your own oppression. They create this kind
of framework for what it means to have power and
be deserving of that power and keeping that power, and
then they end up becoming trapped by it in ways
that make them really miserable. I mean, straight white men
also die younger and have heart attacks and are depressed,
and like the suicide rate for white men is like
skyrocketing and this country because they've trapped themselves in this box.
(35:00):
I'm glad you brought a brace too, because there's no
way to separate any of this from white supremacy. And
I do think Trump's an example of a man's man,
a man who speaks his mind, who it says whatever
he wants, who grabs women by the pussy, who wants
like a beautiful model for a wife like that is
this kind of traditional view of masculinity. But we do
see it as this kind of universal thing until it's critiqued,
(35:20):
and then you realize it's a very specific, modern, white supremacist, heteronormative,
sis normative, patriarchal, capitalistic view of men and family, and
it's it's falling apart of the seams. But I think
for all those people who have found comfort and security
and power in it, they're not gonna let it go
without a fight. Clearly the fight is on. And I
(35:43):
think the one thing I'll say about forty five, and
I'll have to say their name, but forty five is
that all the people that grab them by the p
word and all of the things, all the really racist
things he said during his first campaign, people voted for
him knowing all of this, and so I don't think
people voted for him to despite those things. I actually
think they voted for him because of those things. Yeah,
(36:04):
he was reinforcing these kind of norms that that they
had grown reliant on. And this increasing liberal culture and
all of media coming out of New York and l
A with you know, so many diverse casts and like
gender fluid people is really threatening. And to have someone
going to say, like, no, that's all sick and toxic.
My way is the best way. It's people a lot
of people relieved and wanted that, you know, at least
a slight digression. But in twenty sixteen, that was when
(36:25):
North Carolina introduced HB two, the bathroom Bill, and Loretta
Lynch had her brilliant, beautiful press conferencing we're going to
protect trans youth and we're gonna stand by you. And
that happened that year, and there were so many thing
pieces that came out after the election that actually blamed
trans people for there were so many people are like
liberals are embracing transgender people in bathrooms and that's why
(36:48):
he won um And it was deep, it was deep
sort of being in this space of being sort of
blamed for our visibility, us just asking for dignity, um
and not being discriminated against was blamed for this. We'll
be right back. Okay, we're back, And my other conversation
(37:14):
is around dating. It's and I've talked about being a
feminist and the femininity of trans women is it's the
number one thing they've said as well. So it's interesting
that both our research just given us that finding. But
I think what I found for me is that a
lot of those men become very disappointed when they see
I'm very film you know, if you go to my
Instagram today, I'm like serving. But but I'm also a
(37:35):
feminist and I'm also someone who thinks critically about the
world around me, and that is not always compatible with
what a lot of these men are looking for when
they seek out trans women for a very specific reasons.
And so that's been a really interesting rub for me.
But then for you, you're really smart woman, I think
that there's the trans piece, there's the film piece, But
(37:55):
then like, do you find being a really smart critically
think being trans woman? I don't know if that serves
when it comes to dating men. Oh no, I mean
and but that's a common thing for all women's sis
and trans that when you are ambitious, when you're successful,
when you're independent, when you're smart. I'm both amazed and
embarrassed by how quickly I learned early in my transition
(38:18):
when I started dating men to downplay my intelligence and
my successes in order to appease a guy. Z go.
I'll never forget. One time in l A, I got
picked up by this really cute lift driver I was
very attracted to. It was tall, was gorgeous, and he
was kind of bragging on himself about, Oh, I host
an open mic comedy show every once in a while. Oh,
(38:40):
there's this one agency that like, you know, if she
came to my show once, like and he asked me
about myself, I'm like, yeah, you know, I got nominate
for an Emmy this year and like X, Y and
Z and I just watched him deflate. This man that
I was very attracted to. And at that point, if
you had asked me how, I had no problem with
where he was at in his career and I would
have gone out with him. But then just to watch
him literally shrink when he realized I was so much
(39:01):
more successful than him. That's that's frustrating for for all women.
That's so deep and girl, you know I've experienced that too.
But at the same time, we've worked so hard, and
I've worked so hard, and I'm so proud of what
I've accomplished, and I won't dim my life for anyone,
for any man, Absolutely not. It's just tragic that we
(39:22):
would whoever have to. Okay, So I just want to
run this by you. So I recently met this dude
who's adventure capital. He's like fifty three years old, and
we were talking and he's been dating trans women secretly
for like fifteen years, right, for about fifteen years. No
one in his life knows. And he said to me
(39:42):
that if anyone in his work found out that he
was into trans women, it would ruin his career, that
they would be used against him. And it just because
finance is just really conservative, but it's like it actually
is illegal to, you know, discriminate against someone based on
their sexual orientation. That like is constitutionally a thing. Now,
like with this person lose their career or is it
(40:05):
his shame? Is it his shame that he's internalized and
is it the story he's told himself or with that
really happened. What are your thoughts on that. I mean,
you have a good point. It's hard to imagine anyone,
especially in this day and age, fired for that, both
because of the legality, but also because trans people are
such a prominent part of culture now. And I do
think absolutely the shame is probably the largest piece of it.
(40:28):
But I do think it goes back to the way
that men police each other's gender and performance of masculinity.
So while again and I don't know the workings of
a hedge fund, but assuming that maybe they couldn't legally
be outright fired because they did it a trans woman,
I can see a man fearing that suddenly he wouldn't
be invited to the basketball game afterwards, like where a
lot of the deals happen and suddenly wouldn't get the
(40:51):
best offers. And suddenly, you know, the very thing that
actually happens to trans woman when they come out on
a job, which is they don't get fired, but all
of a sudden their issues with their performed months and
within a few months they're gone. I can see that
kind of thing maybe happening to Amanda, But also frankly,
like I don't give a ship again ultimately, like that's
their problem. And to choose to not allow yourself a
(41:15):
full and transparent life and to pursue the things that
you actually love because of fear of the toxic judgment
of others. It's tragic, I suppose, but really that's on them.
It's on them, But I think I trans women are
reaping the sort of consequences of that, right. I guess
what's so frustrating is that there's so many men out
(41:35):
there who are into us and they're invisible. Oh my god,
it's insane. It is the single biggest kept secrets. It's
straight males desire for transforming. There was a study out
a while ago where where some data company it might
have even been Google's Dirty Thoughts project, um, but they
research porn habits. And then porn hub also does this.
There was a book called a Billion Wicked Thoughts, So
(41:57):
you're thinking of that, maybe maybe there's something else. Then
did a study on people search engines yet and then
porn hub also releases data about their audience and who
watches what, and trans pornography is typically like in the
top five most viewed categories, so it's incredibly popularly hugely
popular and and this is one from porn Hub that
(42:17):
always fascinated me what they found. And this is according
to people who are looking at porn in private and
their own home. The men that watch trans porn watch
women in general and don't watch gay porn. And the
men who watch gay porn don't watch trans women porn
like like, even when they're free like of any judgment,
(42:38):
it's consistent, like all of the data shows this. The
men who like trans women tend to be straight. Yes,
thank you for remembering that. I haven't thought about that
book and forever. And this wasn't like asking people. This
was looking at people's search history. Is what people are
doing in the dark, and that's very Yeah, that's still
in the So all of the anecdotal evidence of trans women,
(43:00):
all of the anecdote those of us who have gone
through from muscule phase of like you and I know
literally hundreds of trans women of dated men, like we
all have hundreds of experiences with men. All of the
data shows this. And yet because men will not be
open about it, and because this happenings in the dark,
allow the general public to continue assuming that only gay
men would like a trans woman. That this giant secret, this,
(43:23):
this giant misconception is just allowed to continue to to
fester and we're we all fall victim to it. So
what's it going to take to change that? That's the
question I always have, that is what is it going
to take? And a lot of the girls I talked
to like, we need a famous macho celebrity to come
out and tell people that he likes trans women. I
don't know if that's I don't know if that's it.
(43:43):
I think it's a cultural thing. I think again, it
has to be. It's a conversation, a bigger conversation around masculinity, homophobia,
anti stigmatizing, and creating new spaces for men to exist
in that are beyond what we've seen before. I just
remember this. I don't even know how to like process
as fully, but it brings me so much joy. When
(44:03):
I was in New York City filming the Mrs Fletcher,
an HBO show, there were two young men part of
the cast, and the two of them and plus another
woman from the set that the four of us became
a little family for the four months we were shooting
in New York and a friend of mine, a young
trans woman, Eve Linley, who's also an actress. Really lovely
young woman would would often hang out with us, and
(44:25):
both of the young men, who were both young, straight
white guys, confessed to me that they were really attracted
to Eve. And I was so fascinated by that. And
at one point I just I just had to know,
does it does it bother you at all that she's trans?
Like would you be embarrassed? Like how do you feel
about that? And both of them, without pause, without self
conscious no, like they were trans woman in my high school,
(44:46):
Like it was that normality thing, Like they had absolutely
no issue with their attraction to Eve. It caused absolutely
no distress in them. It didn't make them rethinker their
masculinity or their sexuality in any way, shape or form.
And they just saw this really pretty girl who was
trans and it just didn't matter. It was a non issue.
That is the future. I do think it's starting to
(45:07):
happen with young people. I'm dating younger man, So you
gotta go, you gotta go where it's warm. Anyway, jin
this has been so amazing. I know we could talk
all day about this and many other issues, and we
will talk more in the future, but it's time to
wrap up, and I like to end the podcast with
(45:29):
a question that's from my therapy, from the community resiliency model,
and it's the idea of both, and that if there's
something challenging that's going on in my life, what else
is true? What what can I lean into energetically that
can reset my nervous system, that can become a resource
and could be in a space of both and right,
that's the resilience space. So I want to ask you today,
(45:51):
jin what else is true? For you to die? I
know I've already talked about it, but I have to
return to it because specifically, the way that you frame
that and the way that that the what else is
true helps us cope or be resilient through the difficulties.
It's loving and being loved by a person by Becca specifically,
it's it's just everything else is easier because of that.
(46:15):
I care less what other people think. My parameters for
what success looks like, for what even being attracted means.
All of that has shifted because of the undeniable strength
and consistency of her love and the way that it
follows from the deep and true way that she sees me.
(46:38):
It's a yeah, oh, my gosh. Um, well, yeah, I'm crying.
I wish it for you. I wish it for everyone.
I really do. That is absolutely beautiful, maybe one of
the most people thinks I've heard in my life. Can
I also just say that until I was loved by Becca,
(47:02):
what really carried me through life was the sisterhood I
feel with other trans women, um and you among them.
The ways in which, starting about I don't know when
it was eight or ten years ago, all of us
came around and just became an active part of each
other's lives and made a conscious decision to support each
(47:23):
other no matter what, to applaud each other, to lift
each other up. Is one of the greatest gifts in
my life and I think is historically relevant and the
reason that trans people are so visible today. Thank you
Jim Richard's Girl, Thank you loveron Cox, Oh my God,
(47:46):
before we Go? People can watch you and Mrs Fletcher
and in the revival litils My City? Where can people
find you? Online? And I am smartass gin on every
social media platform, so I'm very easy to find. I'm
most active on Twitter, probably more than anything else, despite
the fact that depresses me consistently. Still on Twitter alive.
But yes, I'm smart as Jim. Thank you so much,
(48:07):
Jan Richard, you are a treasure. Thank you. I'm so
glad you're feeling that love right now. That just makes
me so happy work. Thank you. Yes, I love Jim
Richards so much. She's so smart. She always gives me
so much to think about. And this thing of being
loved and being seen and how healing that is. I
(48:31):
am happy to report I am now experiencing this um
I'm in love now, and the beautiful thing about it
is that it feels deeply healing. I feel like I
all the work that I've done over my lifetime, all
of the therapy I've had, all the healing work I've done,
(48:52):
has allowed me to be present for this love has
allowed me to be in a space of worthiness to
be able to receive this love. And I think really
for every trans person out there, particularly for trans women,
we have to do the work to to heal ourselves,
to address our traumas, to feel that we are worthy
(49:15):
of the most divine love that exists out there. We
have to do that work. And I I know from
my experience and Jen relate the same thing that the
universe begins to conspire when we have done what we
need to do to put the you know, the energy
in place to be able to receive. And I know
for sure in this moment, no matter what happens with
(49:38):
this relationship, that it is divine that My higher Power
has brought this man to me to experience this for
however long it's meant to be, and we are all
worthy of connection, belonging, We are all worthy of love.
(50:00):
Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. If
you like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and
share with everyone you know. Join me next week from
my conversation with relationship expert and psychologist Dr Wendy Walsh.
She'll explain all my attachment issues and perhaps some of
yours too. You must tune in. You can find me
(50:21):
on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook
at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in
the luck. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show of Reduction of shondaland
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. It is the
single biggest kept secret is a straight mails desire for
transpa And because this happenings in the dark allow the
general public to continue assuming that only gay men would
(00:23):
like a transpoman, that this giant misconception is just allowed
to continue to to fester and we all fall victim
too it. So what's it going to take to change that?
That's the question I always have. Hello everyone, and welcome
to the Laverne Cox Show. Now, I wanted to have
(00:45):
a series of conversations about dating and some of its
challenges for very personal reasons. Finding love has been really
challenging part of my life for my entire adult life.
Part of it is because I'm really picky and I
don't feel a genuine connection to a lot of people.
But dating is also challenging for many of us for
(01:08):
any number of reasons. But I'm keenly aware that the
challenges are different for black women, for women over forty,
and for trans women, all categories I currently inhabit. So
today I want to focus on the challenges of dating
as a trans woman. This is something I talked to
my trans girlfriends about all the time, but today I
(01:30):
wanted to chat with someone who I know will make
me think differently about this and hopefully will give you
a lot to think about as well. Her name is
Jin Richards. Jen as a trans woman, and she's so
smart and thoughtful and always makes me think about various
subjects in ways I hadn't before. Jin Richards is an actress, writer,
and producer. You might know her from her Emmy nominated
(01:51):
short series Her Story, which is absolutely brilliant. You must
watch it if you haven't. She has received critical acclaim
for acting work in the net Links revival of Tales
from the City. You can also see her in the
HBO series Mrs Fletcher and in the Netflix documentary Disclosure,
which I happen to have executive produced. She is currently
a regular on the thriller crime drama Clarisse on CBS.
(02:15):
Please enjoy my conversation with Gin Richards. Hello Jin Richards,
and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Girl?
Things have been good and they're only getting better, which
is a nice feeling. So exciting. That is so exciting.
So I am doing a series where I look at dating,
(02:37):
love and relationships from different lenses, and when I thought
about having a conversation about dating as a trans woman,
and I knew I wanted to talk to you for
a lot of different reasons. But I want to start
with a moment from Disclosure for those listeners who don't know.
Disclosure is a documentary executive produced that is available on
(02:58):
Netflix that looks at the history of trans representation on screen.
And Jin is interviewed in that documentary, and there's a
moment in Disclosure when Jin is reacting to a scene
from the E reality series I Am Kate and Dad
is in a support group for parents of trans kids.
(03:22):
The dad says in the group, if you have a
transgender kid, you are living with a unicorn, an amazing
human being. To be next to someone so brave, so cool,
so close to themselves. Avery was on point from h
to the father says, and Avery is their trans kid.
And then Jin says in reaction to that, I've never
(03:42):
seen myself the way that father saw his own child.
I've never looked at myself with a kind of love, respect,
and awe that father had for his own child. No
one looked at me that way. How could I look
at me that way? I had to see it, and
now that I have, I want that. The vulnerability of
(04:04):
that moment is so beautiful and makes me cry every
time because for me, that's just like what everybody wants,
That's what every human being wants. That's like the human experience.
And I was prepping for this and I saw on
Instagram that you're now engaged. I am so can I
glean now that you have had that or you're experiencing
(04:25):
like being looked at and seeing that way? Is that
talk to me? Jane Richard's profoundly so profoundly so. And
it is more wonderful and deeply transformative than I could
have possibly anticipated. And there's an interesting on coincidence in
that the day that my now fiance first told me
(04:47):
that she loved me was a couple of hours after
we saw the very first screening of Disclosure. Oh my god,
that is really for me, the cruxt of it. I
think that sense of being deeply seen and known and
loved as our authentic self is what we all want.
And I think that is why I wanted to have
(05:08):
this series about love, and one of the reasons I
want to talk to you specifically, not just because you're brilliant,
but because you've dated men and you've dated women in
the past. I used to joke that because I was
bisexual as a boy and dated gay men and straight women,
and have stayed bisexual as a trans woman and have
dated lesbians and straight men and have also dated on
(05:29):
binary and trans people along the way, that I've hit
the lgbt Q bingo card. I've been every letter, and
I've had every possible combination of relationship. I want to
talk about the differences for you and your own experiences
dating men, dating women, dating other trans folks, But I
just want to get into how did you meet your fiance?
Do you want to share it with this a little bit?
Because I think we all want to know how this
(05:51):
happens and we want to celebrate this love with you.
And I'm always excited to share our story and I'm
still very much in the throes of it. We met
through a dating nap. It's a slightly unusual one called
lex which came out. It was originally an Instagram account,
and what it was is that people posted old school personals,
so just like in the newspapers, you'd have a little
(06:12):
headline and maybe ten sentences of texts like who you
are and what you're in search of. There was no pictures,
There was no links to social media or anything. It
was just very, very simple. And I had tried all
the other dating napps before with with you know a
little to no success as an understatement, and I like
the simplicity of this ad. So there's no photos on it.
(06:32):
It's an old school yep, just a personal wow. There
is an option in a post where you can link
to your Instagram if you want to. I did not
do that. Uh. And the larger context of this is
that I had stopped dating for a little over three
years and hadn't been in a serious relationship for almost
eight Why did you stop dating? It was a number
(06:56):
of reasons. I without revealing too much, I'll say that
I had gotten into some self destructive habits and then
it finally confronted those and gone through a healing process,
and in that space felt like I had to focus
on that kind of internal work. Then after a while,
just the fear set in and I didn't know how
to date or have sex without the crutches that I
(07:17):
was accustomed to, and so it took a while, but
there was also this additional justification that I didn't really
have steady income. I was living in people's guest rooms
and couches in l A for three years. All my
stuff was in storage. It's not a great condition under
which to date. And then when I finally found some
success and got my own place and got out of debt,
(07:38):
it was like, okay, this is You've got no excuses,
so now it's time to start dating. So I posted
this ad just as let's see what happens and and
got some nice responses, including one from this woman who
lived in Phoenix, which I ignored because one of the
rules for myself as I'm not dating people that live
at his state, So I ignored her message, but she
kept on in a gentle way. Following up and around
(08:01):
the same time, I was back in therapy, specifically with
the goal of wanting to become okay with dating again,
And on Friday morning, my therapist said, do you even
want Do you want to be partner? Do you want
to be married? Do you want to have a long
term relationship? And I answered, quite honestly that I don't
know because I can't visualize that person. To then make
(08:23):
the judgment. I can't imagine a person who would want
to spend the rest of their life with me, like
holy and completely, like it's beyond my imaginative capacity, So
I can't even picture it to then say do I
want this picture or not? Can I apology there? Just
you can't imagine a person wanting to spend the rest
of their life with you? Can you what's going on there?
(08:44):
That's howthot we could escape by that law because I
feel like that's related to what you said in the
disclosure documentary that you hadn't seen, Like RuPaul says how
you're gonna love somebody else if you don't love yourself
that whole piece and Berne Brown's definition of love is
the same, and we can only love others as much
we love ourself. Do you think that's what that was about?
Or it's certainly wrapped up in that. And I think
(09:06):
transnance is a big part of it as well. It's
very hard to date as a trans woman, and there
are very few models for what a healthy relationship looks
like with the trans person involved. I hadn't seen it,
and I can think of one friend who has been
(09:26):
in a steady relationship the whole time that I've known
or one trans woman. That's a lot of transmitt but
but not trans women. So I just didn't see how
it could work. And that's built on top of a
kind of bedrock of of shame and self hatred that
I think comes with being transfer all the ways that
we're reflected back as monstrous and abject. You combine that
(09:49):
image with with the lack of positive role models, and
then built on the kinds of of shame and self
consciousness that comes I think with just being a human
and like even pre transitioned as a young so news
still figure themselves out and was closeted trends and all
those edifices that we've built up in our mind to
to prove to ourselves were unworthy are hard to break
down and it takes a lot of effort. So I
(10:12):
felt unlovable. Was it was the bottom line of that,
And so I told my therapist this and just okay,
we're gonna let's work on that. Every single morning. First thing,
I sit down with my tea and write out three
pages Longhand, which comes out of Julia Cameron's The Artist Way,
and I work out a lot of my ideas and
issues on the page. And so the next morning, and
oddly enough, this was the first time I had ever
(10:33):
done this. I said, if there were a person out there,
like I'm going to brag it off the assumption that
I've carried so far that there is no such person.
But if there were, if there were a person who
could love me, what kinds of qualities would I want
a partner? And I wrote them out, was very specific,
and then I think it was about five hours later
(10:56):
Becca and I started messaging back and forth on the app,
and she turned out to be literally every single thing
I said I wanted on that journal page. It's almost
as if, like I just the universe are just waiting
for me to show up to say, yeah, okay, I'm ready,
I'm worthy, Like, okay, good, We've got somebody for you.
We're just waiting for you. I think I was thinking too,
that when you declared that you wanted to it felt
(11:18):
like this statement of intention that very much went out
into the universe right in a really beautiful, specific way.
I think there's this the piece of like personal responsibility,
what's my part in it? What can I control right
my perception in my behavior? And then there's systemic things,
and so I love that there's the space of manifesting.
Before I met my most recent X, I made a
(11:41):
list of all the qualities I wanted a man, and
when I met my last boyfriend, he had all those
qualities as well. We're no longer together, so still he
was the right person at the right time, and he
had what you needed in that moment, absolutely, and I
think there was the piece of being ready. And so
I think that because I think for trans folks, of
(12:02):
all transman, trans women, non binary people, and probably anyone
who's marginalized, believing that you're worthy of the love. Because
for me, in my last relationship, at the beginning of it,
when we were getting serious and he was just there
and present and amazing, I just couldn't believe that it
was real because I had never experienced it before. I
had a lot of attachment issues. I was just like
I was waiting for the other shooter drop and he
(12:24):
kept through his actions assuring me that he wasn't going anywhere,
that he was indeed all in. And I had done
enough work on myself in therapy and other practices to
be able to sit with the discomfort of like, oh
my god, this is real, because it was the kind
of there was something cruciating about it. Is if love
is wonderful. But in the beginning, I was just like,
(12:46):
oh my god, this feels it felt awful because I
think because of the trauma, because of the shame, because
there's a part of me that still felt like I
wasn't worthy, But enough of me felt like I was
worthy of it and deserved to receive the love. I
was able to be present forward and to receive it.
Have you felt throughout your process with your fiancee that
you had done enough work? Or is are you in
(13:09):
process with being able to fully receive the love? Because
the gift, but if we don't feel worthy of it,
we can't receive it. Where are you with all that?
I don't know how much of it is the work
that I had put in up until that point, and
how much is what's unique about my dynamic Rebecca and
what's unique about her as a partner. But yeah, it
quickly wasn't an issue. I think once you know, within
(13:30):
the first month, once we got over the whole. Do
you like me as much as I like you? Is
this moving forward? Is this what we both want? We
were both just all in. It was the end of
our second date. I wrote my journal that morning. As
she left, she was going back to Arizona, like, this
is it. I'm done, this is my person, and I'm
all in. And I haven't had a single wavering doubt
(13:53):
since then. And we've been together, hold up in a
house together during the lockdown, and I still love her
more every day and I don't think that's ever going
to change. Maybe, particularly as a writer, I have a
kind of acute sense for in an aversion to any
kind of like cliches and tropes, and certainly you know
that the kind of great love story that when you
(14:14):
meet someone you know when it's the right person, it's
all easy and it works out like all these tropes
I had heard. I had a like a willing suspension
of disbelief. Okay, I've seen it out in the world
enough in real life and storytelling that I believe that's
a possibility, but I don't think that's in the cards
for me. And that feeling came first, and then there
was an intellectual justification of it, you know, like I'm
a very I'm a difficult person, I'm perversely independent, I'm
(14:37):
very very much in my head I'm extremely busy, I'm
trans I have some other stuff about my my past
that can be difficult for a partner to deal with.
I can intellectually justify it all these ways, but ultimately
it was really just that feeling of feeling unloved was
at the base of it. And so as much as
I agree with this whole notion that you do have
to love yourself before you can be loved, at the
(14:58):
same time, having someone see you truly and love you
makes it much easier for you to love yourself. I
don't think it's like an either or. I think it's
a kind of spiral of the two working together. Because
once I met Becca and I started to become loved,
and she's a very powerful partner, like that's for her,
it's very much what defines her identity. She likes being
(15:20):
a partner. She's always wanted to be a wife. She
wants to love someone and support them completely, and to
be loved in that way really broke down all my
very high walls. And then all of a sudden those
cliches became just very true and very obvious in a
way that's I sometimes feel staggeringly basic. And then in
one sense, it goes true love. Uh and in the
(15:43):
sense it really there's a reason. It is one of
the most profound aspects of life and the subject and
object of most of our fairy tales and most profound longings.
It's a powerful thing to be loved, absolutely, and I
think it heals. I think love is everything. What someone
said to me years ago when I started a specific
process of my own healing, They said to me, I'm
(16:04):
going to love you till you learn to love yourself.
And it wasn't a romantic love. It was a love
of healing, and that was part of my process and
support groups and with people where I learned that I
was lovable and I learned how to really be intimate
with someone. And I think that work we have to do.
I think everyone has to do it, but I think
for trans people, because we live in a world that
(16:26):
is really really cruel to us and just constantly has
to invalidate us in our feelings and who we are,
that there's a lot of us have a lot of
trauma that we have to do really specific work so
that we can get to the space of worthiness. A
specific example from the first night we spent together, and
I have to do all of my normal nighttime routine
stuff that I'm I would typically be afraid for anyone
(16:49):
else to see. And I had learned this kind of
like shame over the work of maintaining femininity. So you
know that at night, having to pull my hair back,
take off all my makeup, on my moisturizer, I wear
a nasal strip, debris that night, and all all these
kinds of things that I need in order to be
at my best. I was also embarrassed by and I
never wanted a partner to see that. And the most
(17:11):
I hoped for is maybe I'll meet someone who it
doesn't bother them too much. So the very first night
with with Becca, I had to start doing this stuff
and it was out of the SETSI is because I
had to shoot the next morning, so I couldn't skip
that step. And I was kind of sheepish, and I
began my process and then she sat there and stared
at me, and then she confessed. Because she's very she's
(17:32):
a masculine gold star lesbian like has just always loved
feminine women since she was a child. She like one
of her great joys in life is to watch a
woman do that process, to put on her makeup and
take off her makeup and do her skin. And she
was turned on. She was enraptured and enriched by watching
(17:53):
me do that process. So at best I had hoped
for maybe someone could tolerate this aspect of my life,
and instead I found someone who loves it and who
wants that. And that's the kind of possibilities, Like, Wow,
there's so much more. We can go, so much beyond
acceptance and as someone who sees you specifically and loves
that about you, And and then that dynamic just kept
(18:13):
repeating on different scales for the first few months of
our dating. That's absolutely incredible. So you've also dated men,
and I really wanted to, and I've only dated men
this gender men, I have no I'm not any kind
of effectually fluid, just strictly, I have to Laverna. I'm
start didn't but I have to leave. That could made
(18:34):
me promise that I would again ask you to please
consider becoming a lesbian. Leslians really want you to be lesbian.
You have a lot of lesbian fans, a lot of
like kind of masculine leaning lesbians who love your femininity
and glamour, and they just really want and they would
(18:58):
tell you that a good lesbian can do everything a
man can do and more. That's incredible. I even with
this man, I'm super picky. That's like, that mean I
need to like I need to receive that in this
moment um. That's beautiful. We'll tell Becca thank you. And
I think I were lesbian I because men have been
(19:18):
very frustrating for me. If I were lesbian or any
kind of tendency in that direction, I think I would
go there. But it's just not my tea. Oh. If
there's any proof that we don't choose our sexuality, it's
that all straight women would go lesbian if they had
the choice. Yeah, this is a good time to take
a little break. We'll be right back though. Alrighty, let's
(19:49):
get back to it. So I wanted to talk to
you about for you your experiences dating man, and I
don't I don't want to generalize, but I find that
for those of us who do who are trans women
who date men, oh girl, it is like really a
whole set of issues and struggles and complications that leads
(20:15):
being identified or trans women who date women just it's
not the same experience. What do you what do you
think girl having been good? Lord, Like, how do we
even begin to unpack that? In my experience that I'd
say upwards of of the men I've ever been with
our garden variety straight, they've never dated men. They have
no interest in men. They like women, and some of
(20:35):
those women include trans women. But every single one of
them is terrified that other people are going to think
that they're gay because they're dating a trans woman. You know,
for a while, I went through a very to put it,
mildly promiscuous face. I slept with me too. No shame here,
I've lived. We both lived, honey, Yes, we have lived.
(20:58):
I think it's a common thing. I think it's a
common thing. I think it was a similar place in
your trangestion that it was in mind, which is it's
kind of early. It's when you've suddenly become attractive for
the first time and men want you, and it's so
incredibly affirming, particularly when you're still figuring out what kind
of woman you are to like, have straight men want you?
Is is? It's really juicy. It has a lot of power,
(21:19):
and but I can never turn off my kind of intellectual,
sociological brain. And I asked every single man I slept
with how you became interested in trans women? And what
is your interest and trans women? And I learned a
lot and I've got a fairly sizeable case study. What
if they say, girl, what if they say, what is
the top three things they said? Because they're saying the
same things over and over again. I do this too,
(21:40):
By the way, I'm always curious. Excellent, it's O great. Okay, First,
it's interesting to me that literally all but one man
came to trans woman in the same way. Half of
them that tended to be the older half had met
some woman at some point, been attracted to her, flirted
with or whatever, and then found out she was trans.
They didn't go through with it then, but then it
got stuck in their head, and then they later started
seeking out trans women. The other half was through pornography,
(22:02):
because it's so easy to find online porn. Now you're
in the privacy of your own room, there's no one
to judge you. So they started exploring things, and that
novelty leads them to trans Then they get fixated and
then they seek us out. The one exception, and this
is why I think this point is interesting. The one
exception was this man who just kind of shrugged it
off and said, I grew up in San Francisco, so
they were just around. Like to him, it was like
(22:22):
a redhead or like a you know, a fat girl.
It was just like it was just another variety of
woman that he was accustomed to, and so he felt
no shame about it. For him, it was just very
much like that, they're women I've seen around. It's no
big deal that fascinated me as far as what they like.
And it turns out this is my experience with lesbians too,
So I think it really does say something. The number
one thing is it's the femininity of trans women. It's
(22:45):
it's kind of easy to understand because and frankly, a
lot of the men that I used to sleep with
were married, and a lot of them had the same
story of when they first got married, their wife was
like really feminine, beautiful and were lingerie and and was
sexy and that was part of their life. And then
over time they became mothers, they became more casual, they
became just regular women. And these men still crave that
(23:05):
femininity and that kind of thrill and the way that
it elicits male desire. But also that's been true of
the lesbians. Like the lesbians I've dated, all the ones
who have been attracted to me and have come on
to me tended to be masculine the center, and lesbians
who like femininity, they crave femininity, that's what they love
and a woman, So that's overridingly the major thing that
(23:26):
attracts people. Beyond that, there is and this is where
I've been thinking a lot about this, about where you
and I are slight outliers amongst our circles, and that
you and I are quite discreet about our bodies and
things that we do with them. And I think that
(23:46):
might be a generational thing because we're the same age.
You know, we didn't grow up on the internet, whereas
kids today they post pictures of themselves like whole transition timelines,
and they're open about everything. That's like a horrifying thought
to me. Like I'm very private, and so I'm always
a little bit head attempt to discuss it, but i
will say that, um, I hate talking about the stuff.
(24:09):
I think I know where you're going with this. That
a lot of the reasons straight age and affect men
seek us out or for very specific sexual reasons, for
very specific body parts that some trans people have in
some trans people don't, and for very specific sexual acts.
So it's like, how do we have this conversation about
dating sex wat straight men or into trans women without
(24:31):
I think for me the issue is not contributing to
the further objectification of trans bodies. And I think for me,
a sex act is not gendered. In a sex act
doesn't like sort of denote someone's sexual orientation. I guess
that's a liberal sort of assumption about sex acts. And
other people think that a sex act means something very
(24:51):
specific about someone, right, It's like you said, it's a
physical act. It's just bodily pleasure. It doesn't like what
does it matter? But these aren't say man you'll see
on Twitter who say I won't wash between my cheeks
in the shower because it's gay. Like there's such profound
right absolutely, And there's this whole thing on Twitter that's
(25:14):
kind of recurringin of is it gay? Hey guys, is
it gay to X Y and Z? Is a gay?
To eat a banana? Is gay? Because men are so straight,
men are so terrified of being seen as gay and
less masculine, which it points to a whole bigger issue
around misogyny and patriarchy. If a straights, this man has
his straights, this wife put something in his butt, he's
(25:35):
somehow gay. The insanity of that, on the face of it,
that like a physical act between a man and a
woman can somehow change a person's identity. I think the
emphasis that we put on identity, the success of that
is fracturing, and I think trans people are part of
that fracturing, And then part of the reaction against trans
people is because of the fear that comes with that fracturing.
(25:57):
The fact is that sexual orientation as identity is a
very new concept. It's maybe less than a hundred years old.
For most of human history, people sleep with people, and
men sometimes sleep with men and sometimes sleep with women
and vice versa. And there was never any sense of, oh,
this person is gay. It's they might do a gay thing,
(26:19):
they might have sex men, but then marry a woman.
It wasn't the static identity. And I understand, like I
understand that aspect of identity politics, that it helps us
find our community and look at these kind of stress
points and systemic systems of oppression. But still our identities
aren't that static for the most part, and it goes
both ways. We're talking about straight men's fear. But I
(26:41):
remember once I was with some gay men and this
one guy sheepishly admitted that he is attracted to women
and used to date women, but he felt that once
he came out as gay and it became such an
important part of his identity in this community that he
had to shut down that part of himself that he
felt like other gay men in his circle wouldn't consider
(27:02):
him one of them if he also dated women. We
really want to put people in this like very limiting camp,
and it affects everyone. It prevents us all from having
a greater range of experiences and ways of loving and
being loved. That's so deep. A friend of mine who
is who identifies as gay, he's a gay man of
(27:24):
known this friend forever. He sleeps with women as well,
And for him, he identifies as gay because ultimately he
wants to love another man and be in a loving
relationship with another man, but his sexuality is more fluid,
and so that's kind of how he navigates. And then
my brother called himself be practicing homosexual because he prefers
(27:45):
the idea of practice to orientation, so that there when
it comes to sexuality. For him, it's not about identity.
So there's so many different ways of looking at sexuality
and it's complicated, And these conversations have been happening for decades,
but a lot of straight identified men who find themselves
are tried to trans women are not engaged in these conversations.
(28:05):
But I think a larger conversation around homophobia, and like
that's a really big piece of this whole conversation that
we have to have around dating trans folks and like homophobia. Right, Like,
what I realized is that if any man dates me,
at least publicly, he has to be really comfortable with
people assuming he's gay, because the womanhood of trans women
(28:27):
is often disavowed, is invalidated, and so because so many
people don't think they trans women are women, they assume
that the men who date us must be gay. Right.
For years, I dated a guy who never would have
ever claimed me I thought I was in love with him,
and I'm glad I was able to get myself out
of that. But there's so many women that I've talked
to for the years who've been in situations like that
(28:49):
with men that they were in love with who would
never claim them publicly. And certainly, what I've learned is
have to make different choices, right, like, what's my part
in this? I have to choose different kinds of men,
and certain things need to be unaccemptable. That's exactly right.
I think it's a single biggest issue with trans women.
I think it's exactly the thing that that is the
biggest problem with as I've talked about disclosure, with casting
(29:12):
six men as trans women. I think it's a thing
that underlies the violence against trans women. I mean to me,
I always think about the case of Mercedes Williamson, who
for for those who don't know, the short version is,
and I'll spare some of the worst details, but this
young trans woman was found bludgeon to death. This young
man was quickly caught and he told the police that
(29:34):
he had met Mercedes online, didn't know she was trans
until they were together, and he put his hand up
her skirt. He blacked out, and the next thing he knows,
he's standing over her dead body. And that particular narrative,
which would be called the trans panic defense, is admissible,
and many courts and men could have been able to
get away with murder just by simply claiming I didn't
know she was trans, and that like caused such a
(29:55):
crisis in me. I acted out of violence, and with
no one, even the victim it speak up and say
that wasn't the case. And what's unique about Mercedes case
is that pretty soon thereafter the man who killed her
actually tearfully confessed, No, that's not that's not the story.
In fact, we've been dating for six months. I was
very much in love with her, but he was part
(30:16):
of a gang, frankly, and the gang was very homophobic,
and when one of his friends found out that he
was dating a trans woman, there was exactly what we said,
this assumption that means he's gay and we're gonna have
to hurt him, And rather than face that, he destroyed
the thing that created that dissonance, and helm he destroyed Mercedes,
(30:38):
this woman he loved and now profoundly regrets it. And
so this is another one of those cases where the
guy was straight, but the fear that he was going
to be seen as gay and other men's judgment that
he was gay for being with a trans woman led
him to this incredible violence. And I think we face
a kind of mini version of that crisis every time
we date a man. That's been my experience. But I
(30:59):
think with under neath all this is that men need
to get over their homophobia. Oh my god, yes, because
really it's like transphobia and homophobia and then become so
inextricably linked to me, and people are like so terrified
that somebody might think that they're gay, and like they
have shame around that. If you think about that, it's
absolutely ridiculous, it really is, But it just it points
(31:22):
to a wider social context where I mean, we're having
a crisis of masculinity. I would say globally really, but
particularly in this country. I mean, Trump is very much
an embodiment of this kind of misogynistic, patriarchal reaction against
the breaking down of gender norms. And there is a
kind of truth in which that so much of our
society is built upon this foundational binary of male and
(31:46):
female and knowing who you are and where you belong.
It's hard for anyone to figure out who you are
and where you belong, and so society tells you, at
the very least, no matter what else, like your male
and therefore you can do X, Y and Z, and
you should behave a B and C that there's a
certain kind of I think for people like you and
I have maybe like it's really scary, uh, and we
(32:07):
want to escape those confines. But I think for average
person that's really comforting to know, Okay, this is how
I behave, these are the things I'm allowed to do,
and the people I date are going to be like this.
And those two don't threaten each other. They support each other.
Feminine women and masculine men, like I'm going to be
the bread owner and you're going to be the emotional
and support and the homemaker. Like we all we know
(32:27):
where we stand, and that's really comforting. And whereas diarity as,
I think trans people like you and I actually don't
threaten that in most ways. But I think trans people
in general, the idea that you could be born into
one side of this and then move to the other
or not fit in or disrupt these kind of power
norms is threatening to the entire worldview, And for me,
it's the only way to understand why there's such intense
(32:49):
vitriol and such an emotional intensity around trans people. I
think those ideas certainly exist, but the lived experiences that
people's lives throughout history at Lee always challenged those ideas
that like men are supposed to do this, women are
supposed to do this, and I think that is the
sort of sad reality. I mean, what keep has come
up a lot on this podcast is like that crisis
(33:11):
of masculinity and that this patriarchal sort of embrace the
traditional masculinity is actually not really doing man any favorites.
And I think there's a betrayal that happens right, especially
for white men. I think straight white men, is that
you're supposed to be this and this and this. Then
all of a sudden, you don't have a job to
take care of your family, and you can't provide and
all the things that you were told that you're supposed
(33:33):
to be because you're a man, you're not able to fulfill.
And instead of like questioning all those things that they
were taught about who they were supposed to be, it's
who is to blame for this? Like who do I
lash out at? And I think that explains a lot
of the phenomenon of forty five. Right, I'm gonna lash
out at trans people, I'm gonna lash out at immigrants,
I'm gonna lash out it you know, automation and shipping
(33:54):
jobs overseas and like all of these things instead of
questioning some people are questioning those systems. But I think
the system of masculinity and patriarchy is one of those
things that I would encourage more straight identify this gender
men to be in question of to get to a
place of freedom, to get to a more of a
place of like, let and go those expectations so you
(34:17):
can live more authentically. That's something I've been saying for
years around gender. But I think that I really believe
that when we can let go of the expectations that
sort of exist around that stuff, we can just be
I always think about friends Finans Wretched of the Earth
and his kind of discussion of the way that an
oppressor becomes oppressed themselves through their act of oppressing, You
(34:37):
get trapped in your own oppression. They create this kind
of framework for what it means to have power and
be deserving of that power and keeping that power, and
then they end up becoming trapped by it in ways
that make them really miserable. I mean, straight white men
also die younger and have heart attacks and are depressed,
and like the suicide rate for white men is like
skyrocketing and this country because they've trapped themselves in this box.
(35:00):
I'm glad you brought a brace too, because there's no
way to separate any of this from white supremacy. And
I do think Trump's an example of a man's man,
a man who speaks his mind, who it says whatever
he wants, who grabs women by the pussy, who wants
like a beautiful model for a wife like that is
this kind of traditional view of masculinity. But we do
see it as this kind of universal thing until it's critiqued,
(35:20):
and then you realize it's a very specific, modern, white supremacist, heteronormative,
sis normative, patriarchal, capitalistic view of men and family, and
it's it's falling apart of the seams. But I think
for all those people who have found comfort and security
and power in it, they're not gonna let it go
without a fight. Clearly the fight is on. And I
(35:43):
think the one thing I'll say about forty five, and
I'll have to say their name, but forty five is
that all the people that grab them by the p
word and all of the things, all the really racist
things he said during his first campaign, people voted for
him knowing all of this, and so I don't think
people voted for him to despite those things. I actually
think they voted for him because of those things. Yeah,
(36:04):
he was reinforcing these kind of norms that that they
had grown reliant on. And this increasing liberal culture and
all of media coming out of New York and l
A with you know, so many diverse casts and like
gender fluid people is really threatening. And to have someone
going to say, like, no, that's all sick and toxic.
My way is the best way. It's people a lot
of people relieved and wanted that, you know, at least
a slight digression. But in twenty sixteen, that was when
(36:25):
North Carolina introduced HB two, the bathroom Bill, and Loretta
Lynch had her brilliant, beautiful press conferencing we're going to
protect trans youth and we're gonna stand by you. And
that happened that year, and there were so many thing
pieces that came out after the election that actually blamed
trans people for there were so many people are like
liberals are embracing transgender people in bathrooms and that's why
(36:48):
he won um And it was deep, it was deep
sort of being in this space of being sort of
blamed for our visibility, us just asking for dignity, um
and not being discriminated against was blamed for this. We'll
be right back. Okay, we're back, And my other conversation
(37:14):
is around dating. It's and I've talked about being a
feminist and the femininity of trans women is it's the
number one thing they've said as well. So it's interesting
that both our research just given us that finding. But
I think what I found for me is that a
lot of those men become very disappointed when they see
I'm very film you know, if you go to my
Instagram today, I'm like serving. But but I'm also a
(37:35):
feminist and I'm also someone who thinks critically about the
world around me, and that is not always compatible with
what a lot of these men are looking for when
they seek out trans women for a very specific reasons.
And so that's been a really interesting rub for me.
But then for you, you're really smart woman, I think
that there's the trans piece, there's the film piece, But
(37:55):
then like, do you find being a really smart critically
think being trans woman? I don't know if that serves
when it comes to dating men. Oh no, I mean
and but that's a common thing for all women's sis
and trans that when you are ambitious, when you're successful,
when you're independent, when you're smart. I'm both amazed and
embarrassed by how quickly I learned early in my transition
(38:18):
when I started dating men to downplay my intelligence and
my successes in order to appease a guy. Z go.
I'll never forget. One time in l A, I got
picked up by this really cute lift driver I was
very attracted to. It was tall, was gorgeous, and he
was kind of bragging on himself about, Oh, I host
an open mic comedy show every once in a while. Oh,
(38:40):
there's this one agency that like, you know, if she
came to my show once, like and he asked me
about myself, I'm like, yeah, you know, I got nominate
for an Emmy this year and like X, Y and
Z and I just watched him deflate. This man that
I was very attracted to. And at that point, if
you had asked me how, I had no problem with
where he was at in his career and I would
have gone out with him. But then just to watch
him literally shrink when he realized I was so much
(39:01):
more successful than him. That's that's frustrating for for all women.
That's so deep and girl, you know I've experienced that too.
But at the same time, we've worked so hard, and
I've worked so hard, and I'm so proud of what
I've accomplished, and I won't dim my life for anyone,
for any man, Absolutely not. It's just tragic that we
(39:22):
would whoever have to. Okay, So I just want to
run this by you. So I recently met this dude
who's adventure capital. He's like fifty three years old, and
we were talking and he's been dating trans women secretly
for like fifteen years, right, for about fifteen years. No
one in his life knows. And he said to me
(39:42):
that if anyone in his work found out that he
was into trans women, it would ruin his career, that
they would be used against him. And it just because
finance is just really conservative, but it's like it actually
is illegal to, you know, discriminate against someone based on
their sexual orientation. That like is constitutionally a thing. Now,
like with this person lose their career or is it
(40:05):
his shame? Is it his shame that he's internalized and
is it the story he's told himself or with that
really happened. What are your thoughts on that. I mean,
you have a good point. It's hard to imagine anyone,
especially in this day and age, fired for that, both
because of the legality, but also because trans people are
such a prominent part of culture now. And I do
think absolutely the shame is probably the largest piece of it.
(40:28):
But I do think it goes back to the way
that men police each other's gender and performance of masculinity.
So while again and I don't know the workings of
a hedge fund, but assuming that maybe they couldn't legally
be outright fired because they did it a trans woman,
I can see a man fearing that suddenly he wouldn't
be invited to the basketball game afterwards, like where a
lot of the deals happen and suddenly wouldn't get the
(40:51):
best offers. And suddenly, you know, the very thing that
actually happens to trans woman when they come out on
a job, which is they don't get fired, but all
of a sudden their issues with their performed months and
within a few months they're gone. I can see that
kind of thing maybe happening to Amanda, But also frankly,
like I don't give a ship again ultimately, like that's
their problem. And to choose to not allow yourself a
(41:15):
full and transparent life and to pursue the things that
you actually love because of fear of the toxic judgment
of others. It's tragic, I suppose, but really that's on them.
It's on them, But I think I trans women are
reaping the sort of consequences of that, right. I guess
what's so frustrating is that there's so many men out
(41:35):
there who are into us and they're invisible. Oh my god,
it's insane. It is the single biggest kept secrets. It's
straight males desire for transforming. There was a study out
a while ago where where some data company it might
have even been Google's Dirty Thoughts project, um, but they
research porn habits. And then porn hub also does this.
There was a book called a Billion Wicked Thoughts, So
(41:57):
you're thinking of that, maybe maybe there's something else. Then
did a study on people search engines yet and then
porn hub also releases data about their audience and who
watches what, and trans pornography is typically like in the
top five most viewed categories, so it's incredibly popularly hugely
popular and and this is one from porn Hub that
(42:17):
always fascinated me what they found. And this is according
to people who are looking at porn in private and
their own home. The men that watch trans porn watch
women in general and don't watch gay porn. And the
men who watch gay porn don't watch trans women porn
like like, even when they're free like of any judgment,
(42:38):
it's consistent, like all of the data shows this. The
men who like trans women tend to be straight. Yes,
thank you for remembering that. I haven't thought about that
book and forever. And this wasn't like asking people. This
was looking at people's search history. Is what people are
doing in the dark, and that's very Yeah, that's still
in the So all of the anecdotal evidence of trans women,
(43:00):
all of the anecdote those of us who have gone
through from muscule phase of like you and I know
literally hundreds of trans women of dated men, like we
all have hundreds of experiences with men. All of the
data shows this. And yet because men will not be
open about it, and because this happenings in the dark,
allow the general public to continue assuming that only gay
men would like a trans woman. That this giant secret, this,
(43:23):
this giant misconception is just allowed to continue to to
fester and we're we all fall victim to it. So
what's it going to take to change that? That's the
question I always have, that is what is it going
to take? And a lot of the girls I talked
to like, we need a famous macho celebrity to come
out and tell people that he likes trans women. I
don't know if that's I don't know if that's it.
(43:43):
I think it's a cultural thing. I think again, it
has to be. It's a conversation, a bigger conversation around masculinity, homophobia,
anti stigmatizing, and creating new spaces for men to exist
in that are beyond what we've seen before. I just
remember this. I don't even know how to like process
as fully, but it brings me so much joy. When
(44:03):
I was in New York City filming the Mrs Fletcher,
an HBO show, there were two young men part of
the cast, and the two of them and plus another
woman from the set that the four of us became
a little family for the four months we were shooting
in New York and a friend of mine, a young
trans woman, Eve Linley, who's also an actress. Really lovely
young woman would would often hang out with us, and
(44:25):
both of the young men, who were both young, straight
white guys, confessed to me that they were really attracted
to Eve. And I was so fascinated by that. And
at one point I just I just had to know,
does it does it bother you at all that she's trans?
Like would you be embarrassed? Like how do you feel
about that? And both of them, without pause, without self
conscious no, like they were trans woman in my high school,
(44:46):
Like it was that normality thing, Like they had absolutely
no issue with their attraction to Eve. It caused absolutely
no distress in them. It didn't make them rethinker their
masculinity or their sexuality in any way, shape or form.
And they just saw this really pretty girl who was
trans and it just didn't matter. It was a non issue.
That is the future. I do think it's starting to
(45:07):
happen with young people. I'm dating younger man, So you
gotta go, you gotta go where it's warm. Anyway, jin
this has been so amazing. I know we could talk
all day about this and many other issues, and we
will talk more in the future, but it's time to
wrap up, and I like to end the podcast with
(45:29):
a question that's from my therapy, from the community resiliency model,
and it's the idea of both, and that if there's
something challenging that's going on in my life, what else
is true? What what can I lean into energetically that
can reset my nervous system, that can become a resource
and could be in a space of both and right,
that's the resilience space. So I want to ask you today,
(45:51):
jin what else is true? For you to die? I
know I've already talked about it, but I have to
return to it because specifically, the way that you frame
that and the way that that the what else is
true helps us cope or be resilient through the difficulties.
It's loving and being loved by a person by Becca specifically,
it's it's just everything else is easier because of that.
(46:15):
I care less what other people think. My parameters for
what success looks like, for what even being attracted means.
All of that has shifted because of the undeniable strength
and consistency of her love and the way that it
follows from the deep and true way that she sees me.
(46:38):
It's a yeah, oh, my gosh. Um, well, yeah, I'm crying.
I wish it for you. I wish it for everyone.
I really do. That is absolutely beautiful, maybe one of
the most people thinks I've heard in my life. Can
I also just say that until I was loved by Becca,
(47:02):
what really carried me through life was the sisterhood I
feel with other trans women, um and you among them.
The ways in which, starting about I don't know when
it was eight or ten years ago, all of us
came around and just became an active part of each
other's lives and made a conscious decision to support each
(47:23):
other no matter what, to applaud each other, to lift
each other up. Is one of the greatest gifts in
my life and I think is historically relevant and the
reason that trans people are so visible today. Thank you
Jim Richard's Girl, Thank you loveron Cox, Oh my God,
(47:46):
before we Go? People can watch you and Mrs Fletcher
and in the revival litils My City? Where can people
find you? Online? And I am smartass gin on every
social media platform, so I'm very easy to find. I'm
most active on Twitter, probably more than anything else, despite
the fact that depresses me consistently. Still on Twitter alive.
But yes, I'm smart as Jim. Thank you so much,
(48:07):
Jan Richard, you are a treasure. Thank you. I'm so
glad you're feeling that love right now. That just makes
me so happy work. Thank you. Yes, I love Jim
Richards so much. She's so smart. She always gives me
so much to think about. And this thing of being
loved and being seen and how healing that is. I
(48:31):
am happy to report I am now experiencing this um
I'm in love now, and the beautiful thing about it
is that it feels deeply healing. I feel like I
all the work that I've done over my lifetime, all
of the therapy I've had, all the healing work I've done,
(48:52):
has allowed me to be present for this love has
allowed me to be in a space of worthiness to
be able to receive this love. And I think really
for every trans person out there, particularly for trans women,
we have to do the work to to heal ourselves,
to address our traumas, to feel that we are worthy
(49:15):
of the most divine love that exists out there. We
have to do that work. And I I know from
my experience and Jen relate the same thing that the
universe begins to conspire when we have done what we
need to do to put the you know, the energy
in place to be able to receive. And I know
for sure in this moment, no matter what happens with
(49:38):
this relationship, that it is divine that My higher Power
has brought this man to me to experience this for
however long it's meant to be, and we are all
worthy of connection, belonging, We are all worthy of love.
(50:00):
Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. If
you like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and
share with everyone you know. Join me next week from
my conversation with relationship expert and psychologist Dr Wendy Walsh.
She'll explain all my attachment issues and perhaps some of
yours too. You must tune in. You can find me
(50:21):
on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook
at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in
the luck. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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