April 3, 2025 • 45 mins
Mickey Drexler, “the man who dressed America,” dominated American fashion as CEO of Gap and J. Crew, creating Old Navy and Madewell along the way. He’s also one of the business leaders Martha admires the most. Between the two of them, they have decades of experience in retail, and billions of dollars in sales. Today they talk about his successes and challenges, and creating a lasting brand in the age of fast fashion and convenience.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The other day, I got a message out of the
blue from an old friend, Mickey Drexler, who wanted to
catch up again, so I invited him to come on
my podcast. Many of you know Mickey's work well, if
you shopped at Gap, Old Navy, Jay Crewe, or Madewell,
you've likely purchased fashion that he's influenced. Under his leadership,
(00:26):
he grew Gap from a four hundred million dollar company
to a multi billion dollar venture and made Jay Crewe
a leading retailer. And today he has a new venture.
And we are sitting in our beautiful little studio right
at Rockefeller Center, right across from the store called alex
(00:47):
Mill Kismuth. And this features his signature all American style,
and I'm wearing an alex Mill cardigan, which I love.
Is a hard cotton.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I love this and by the way, it's one of
the best sellers. It is and cashmere in the winter.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And the retailer speaks, Welcome to my podcast, Mickey.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's exciting to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Really great to see you again up close and personal.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
This is fun. And Mickey is a great raconteur. He's
known for his ability to talk talk talk, talk, talk,
and tell stories, and every single one of the things
he says is interesting. That's what we love about Mickey
Drexler so and he's also one of the most creative
men persons, one of the most creative persons I have
(01:37):
ever met, really and truly. From the minute I met you.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Can I just say how we first met? Yes, you
do not remember when I was kind of just married.
My wife Peggy and I had a cut up, small,
cut up apartment on Park Avenue. The city was going bankrupt.
Guests who catered a dinner her now her apartment. It
(02:03):
was the before she was Martha Stewart. She was there
cooking and serving. It must have been nineteen seventy eight
or very early on, right, and I didn't who knew?
I have your contract from that dinner. I am going
to look it up.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh when I go home, I'm looking up that contract
and seeing how much you paid for that.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, well, I want to say you had your finger
on the scale.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I think it was probably about twelve dollars a person.
At that time. It was a bargain.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
But who knows who knew?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
That is so funny, Mickey. Well, I was just in
the store right across from our studio, as I said,
Alex mill and it's named after your son, Alex.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Alex started it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
This is Millard Drexler, by the way, whose name, nickname
is Mickey, and nobody calls him anything but Mickey. Well,
what was it like to watch your son build a
brand in an industry where you've devoted your entire higher
career after going I mean I read about your education.
I mean you went to Bronx Science and how did
you get to be a garmento out of Bronx Science.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, you know, it's funny being a garmento or doing
what I do. First of all, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Just not a derogatory term, by the way, right the
Calvin Klein was a garmento Ralph l from the Bronx No, no,
these are the billionaires of billionaires.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Let me it was there was no master plan. Every
young person I meet them all they want to have
a master plan at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen twenty five. And
you know, I say, I connect the dots backwards. Who
plans what you're going to do as you? I mean,
(03:47):
who knew you? Never thought about it? You had the
little shop in Westport. So I was very fortunate to
get into science. And the reason I was fortunate is
it was a whole new milieu of everyone went to
college in my family on my mother's side, the Jewish family,
the kibbutz in the Bronx. I was the only one.
(04:10):
And it's still stunning. And there was no educational ethic.
I get into science. I didn't want to go. I
went there, hated it for four years. Where did you
want to go? You know, it's a good question. I
would have gone. No, I didn't know. I was just,
you know, going to wherever I was.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Science is one of the foremost schools, public schools in
New York, and you can hard to get in there.
I mean, very few kids. Well that's true, but I
was like going to LaGuardia, you know, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So I, all of a sudden, was incredible, all of
a sudden, intimidated by the students, and I was. I
hated school. I had a school phobia since kindergarten. And
then I'd sit next to them. There's a guy named
Philip Hella right here in the next seat. Every freaking
he get an a plus and a minus. And I
(05:04):
stopped asking him, Philip, how did you do? I just
wanted to get through it, which I did. I then
went to City College because in my family there was
no one spoke he should go here. And then I
had to leave town. That's a personal story. So I
went to Buffalo for my last two years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh he did university Buffalo. But what a nice place
to go. Yeah, Buffalo was good.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, it was good because I had to escape.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Okay, So how did you find fashion from Buffalo?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You know, it's funny. I don't know. My father worked.
He didn't fit my job description of a good father.
But he used to work in a shipping room in
the garments center for Junior Small Young Person's coat company,
and I always fantasized he was a big shot. He
(05:54):
never was, because he acted like one. But I used
to work there. He always forced me to work, not graciously,
but I thank him maybe for that. And I always worked,
so I was near the coats. I delivered the coats
to the stores, the samples, the piece goods. And then
(06:14):
I had got a job during the summer at Abraham
and Strauss in Brooklyn, A and S which is no longer,
and I worked for Ken Hirsch's, a millionaire. I remember
him as a good boss. You always remember good bosses
in the young men's jeens department. Not that I it
was no fashion thing, but I loved the energy. I
(06:35):
loved that I was working. I loved the fact that
I made a minimum plause salary for the summer. And
then I interviewed at retailers and I wrote letters to
a lot of people I hate. Today, if I don't
get an answer back, I'll never forget the companies I hated.
I write a note, I send the resume. At least
(06:57):
be polite enough and adswer to acknowledge. And that's how
I feel. But well, the world now just say hello,
even if you're a big shot. You don't need me there.
Then I interviewed Bloomingdale's. Bloomingdale's then in nineteen sixty nine
ers I loved it was a very hot company. Upper
east Side cool, and I interviewed there. Upperside is really
(07:18):
like sixtieth Street and then but now everything's cool. And yeah,
it was then the you know, quote unquote the place.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Oh, and they had such innovative merchandising, innovative.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, it was the culture and it's always the culture.
And I can have an you know, private story about
that part Anyway, I loved it. My first assignment, I
was very lucky. Second day I was. First day I
was in the house swister, but I don't know what
the hell I was doing. And I worked for a
guy named Tim Morgan. Very cool guy, let's forget handsome,
(07:54):
cool whatever. And the next day my then boss, Stanley
Stern said, you're going to run the Lexington level department.
The buyer barber Saint Andrew's on maternity leave. So they
throw me in there and I'm for six months. I'm
loving it. I'm the best selling. I think a lot
(08:16):
of it was, well, everything's intuitive, Yeah, how did you
do what you do? It's in your imagination. I was
really good at it, but I didn't know it was,
you know. And then that's how I got in and
I there six years. I quit, made a mistake, went
to Macy's for a year and a half. I quit.
I quit, and I'm saying, what the hell am I
(08:37):
going to? Then I ended up at Anne Taylor at
thirty five years old as a CEO. Anyway, I worked there,
but I'll tell you what I learned there. I hated
the fact that when I was at Bloomingdale's Alexander's only
you remember Discounter, They'd have my goods there on sale,
and then I had to mark down the goods. Now
people don't get it on me price, most of them,
(09:00):
and I hated that I had no control. I didn't
say this ap loud, it's internal. And when I got
to Ann Taylor, Brooks Brothers then was pretty prestigious while
it was in those days and Alloyed Stores owned Brooks Brothers,
and I used to sit in meetings there and the
(09:21):
light went on because Brooks Brothers owned their label and
it wasn't you know, Harry Schmoey or whatever label that
sells fifty stores, which happens today. And I went to
our three biggest vendors who had names. Then I forgot
it was whatever the names were, and I asked them
(09:44):
with our team to do a collection of Ann Taylor's studio,
because for me, if you don't control your inventory, it's
not safe. You can wake up like I'd wake up.
I was a swimsuit buy among other things. Alexander's had
a mid June swimsuit sale every year, and I had
(10:06):
to mark down my inventory. Is but now no one
pays attention to other pricing. That's a whole other issue. Pricing.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Oh yeah, a whole other issue. I know all of
that from from well, you know, from Macy's. Oh my gosh.
Macy's was my biggest, my biggest fashion fashion I remember
that I first. Yeah, and before that, Kmart was my biggest.
And that was that was the best. That was the best.
That was the best business deal I ever had. Zeddy
(10:35):
Lampert was there then, no prior. This was the old
k Mart where we were selling almost two billion dollars
worth of merchandise every year, Oh my god. And I
was getting I was clearing sixty million dollars in royalties.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Clear you deserved it. I did, created value.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Did and that was the best because they had they knew,
they knew how to make product. They didn't know any
thing about inventory, they didn't know anything about a lot
of other things in retailing. But as a major, they
were the largest retailer in America at the time, and
they were bigger than Walmart.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And they they made. I still have everything I made
for Kmart, designed for Kmart, I still have and still
use because it was so good.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Keep it simple, smart, right, and don't change it. No,
the way.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
No, everyone was perfect, and then they didn't. They had
no inventory controls, they didn't know about computers, they didn't
know anything about modern retailing. And Walmart came and just
killed them. Well wart Walmart and then Target. Target was
tiny at the time they came in, and Kmart just
faded away.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Do you know what's happening related to that? And if
I'm talking too much, no, we love talking Related to
that is today the world most retailers, no matter who,
are discounters and you got to be there on the
right day, on the right time. I know companies very well.
They have online sales. It's full price in the shops.
(12:07):
It's not federal customer and the best retail She doesn't
like when I say this, Well I say it all
the time. They say Who's who do you respect the most?
TJ Max.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
They're my biggest They're my biggest, biggest retailer. Now, so
you know Carol Myers, of course I love her best.
She is the smartest and steadfast and retailer and humble, steadfast.
They have an idea, they have stuck by their idea
and they're not veered off. And you know, you go
in and the stock has gone just inches up every
(12:40):
year to a new high and new high and new
high because they invented integrity in this county. Yes, but
when you go into a TJ Max every you trust
the pricing because it's not.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Today, only tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Get it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Even on TV. I'm watching the news this morning. They
everyone has to have a deal and a sale. The
integrity of the business. Where is it?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I said, this is a great ad this window Anderson
Window tell me about why their windows are the best.
And I'm saying, wow, I'm impressed. And then this week
by March thirtieth, I said, they destroy the culture anyway,
TJ Max. After that, the world's going their home goods store.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I mean, it's amazing, so much stuff in that store
because they buy a certain quantity and it's gone, and
then the next quantity comes in and it's gone. Yes, right,
the people wait wait for it.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Well, they trust, well it's you know you, And they
trust the names. They trust their brand and the price.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
They have many many brands in that store.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
It's about the history and the integrity and the style
and products the most important thing in the world. But
I don't know if everyone believes that.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, let's talk about a little bit more about fashion
and uh. And the first of all, in your newest
venture with your with your son Alex Mills, who is
your competition for these lovely clothes?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Well, I learned about forty years ago there was a
company called it was a children's little company. Lou Russe
owned health text And I said to Lou, who is
your competition? I'll never forget this. Anyone with a sewing machine?
What an answer? Yeah, And you know everyone's a competitor,
(14:32):
and you just have to have a point of view
my case now, okay, nice product, point of view, integrity
on pricing and not on sale every week. You know
Macy's assistant buyers sale, then they had whatever sale and
they all these.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Macy's has gone from thousands of stores to a few stores. Yeah,
well and there are and they're on this and they're
on the chopping block every single day. Well, it's the
demise of a great American brand.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yep. Well it's you know the multi brand. All the
department stores and allowed it comes the multi brand. They
sell all the brands. And I always say with them
on let's semb see my advice before you give the
credit card, go online for that product. Go online and
see who's selling in our case, some people I don't
(15:22):
know where they get it, but you know they might
have a few pieces. But you know, we don't sell
anyone who's going to market the brand. Okay, but everything
is about the brand and this relationship to a consumer.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, the point of view is nice. It's a kind
of a casual, well made. We notice the cardigans, those
pretty colored cardigans with tiny little button, many little buttons.
That's a different thing.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's our best style.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You just oh it is see you see, But I
noticed all those buttons because no other cardigan sweater has
all those buttons. They might have eight buttons at the most.
This one has like twenty something button. This okay, I
notice picked it so.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And I picked up this beautiful Mitchell car Mitchell, Mitchell Mitchell.
See we're going to change all the names. Mitchell is
no one our latest pan make it, Martha, make this.
I'm going to give a Martha Steward. You know I'm
putting your name on the window. You said, yes, no, Martha,
Martha loves Alex.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I'm a tractor supply. Now I heard that business is
raging good. I read about it tractor supply because the
CEO left home depot and started this little farm store
where he was going to offer just things that the
farmer needed. And we have a lot of farmers now,
even a back I'm a backyard farmer. I mean I
(16:46):
have forever, yeah, forever. But now I have one hundred
and fifty acres in Bedford, and I need tractor supply
because I go there for my chicken feed, I go
there for tools, I go there for fencing, I go
there for stuff. And so now I have a nice
line of garden clothes.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
You know you just gave me. I do quotes all
the time, going the famous for famous for well known for.
Every business needs to choose and know and have customers
know what they're known. So that's what Alex Mills. You
need that you need that that slogan on the window.
(17:25):
I'm going, can you be We don't have a board,
but you'll.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Be, okay. I'll be on your board when it when
and if you need a board.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
We need okay. We always can learn. And that's it.
And most people aren't curious enough. I get I snip
out little pictures.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Mickey Drexler is one of the most curious men on earth,
not only evidenced by the companies that he has built
and the fashions he has has promoted. But but in
his homes, Oh, I still remember every one of your
homes that I've seen, so beautiful. How's your garden in
Bridge Hampton?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, Bridge Hampton, Well, you'll come over. Did you sell
youry Stampton?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I did?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I heard that, But no, I I go to Maine.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I have my beautiful place in Maine, and my daughter
and the grandkids love Maine. They have things to do,
like mountains to climb.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, and you're on the hill top, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yes, very special. So but you had one of the
most beautiful gardens in the Hampton's and it is that
your wife's project or your project? Well?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Guard you know we had a Terry Despine may West
in Peace.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Oh, I know you knew Terry. Oh he was my
boyfriend Fred. Remember Terry Despine Cherry T H I E.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
R R. Y.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
He was a Frenchman from Brittany and he was one
of the greatest interior designers as ever lived, and a
very fine artist also. And he and I had like
a fling for a year or so, and that's when
he was working for you. You were his biggest client at
the time, and what were your challenges when you were
brought on to the Gap? Ohne eighty night.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I started there. I ran Antaylor for four years and
they had that awful company bias, and then I moved
to say, I don't know if you ever know Rose Wells.
She ran down of the retail garment. Rose was friendly
with Don, the founder of Gap, and she and I
were good friendship. Always was a fan, and she told
(19:33):
in the Gap in nineteen eighty three, was either going
to go this way or this way.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You can't see that. It's either up or down. Oh okay,
Oh this is radio. Okay, we're not on TV. We're
on radio anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But they were famous for fall into the Gap, very tacky,
horrible clothes. Yeah, everything was on sale. He started as
Levi's only store. So I get there. I'm just going
to give you a few tells. I get there a
mess and working, you know, when you have a chairman
who's but it was always avivalent. Yeah, just he was concerned.
(20:16):
I was taking too. You have to get rid of
your bad inventory. So I liquid dated most of the goods,
and of course the stock and the you know, and
the earnings when you liquid date your goods, it's like
getting rid of stale fish. If you keep it, it
ties up the cash. So I got there. I'm going
to tell you so. I used to visit stores. They
(20:39):
know more than anyone in the business. Someone on the
selling floor, which in the big departments there's God forbid,
and I can't speak to other smaller companies. So go
to Houston Gallery in Texas. I remember this as one
of those moments, and I said, what did I get
myself into it? I park in the parking lot. I
(21:01):
see flyers on all the cars today, only gap thirty
percent off everything. Oh my god. No one wouldn't believe me.
So I walked and Hector was the store manager. I
just meant him. I said, Hector, what is this? He goes,
if we having a slow day, we do a sale.
(21:23):
That was That's the tell. Everything was cheap. Everything was
on sale. And they had twenty different brand names. And
you know, it's like you being Martha Stewart, Susie Schwartz,
this everyone Fox Tales. They did surveys. I don't do
any surveys. You know, were focus groups. My board forced
(21:47):
me into one or two to rear view mirror. What
are they doing. They're getting paid. It's probably like Nielsen,
who knows. So anyway, a mess, a disaster public company.
I was scared for the first year or so. Don
was great at really we rid did We had four
hundred stores and we redid all of them and I
(22:09):
re merchant. Well, I threw out all the crap. Stock
went fifty percent down and like, oh my god. Then
we had a meeting. I'll never forget launching the New Gap,
never called New Gap.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
But it was so fabulous. So it was it was fabulous,
thank you. So.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
But I had a vision I had on a piece
of paper when I was at Anne Taylor, if I
were going to start. I really wanted to start it coming.
But then people didn't get oh he has ten million,
just started in fail. So I had on a piece
of paper in my desk drawer what I wanted to do.
So the company was told August, my birthday's August seventeen,
(22:50):
all the goods, this is a year.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Elo Leo Leo August thirty.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Okay, well yeah, we'll share next. We've got to do
it anyway, So middle of August, I'll never forget. We're
in a meeting in Carmel, which you've been there. It's
a snooze. But whatever. Anyway, in New York, when you
grow up in New York, it's very different than all those.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But maybe it was good that you went to California
because you created in the Gap the iconic American style
for everybody. That's what you did. That's what the Gap did,
and you were at the Helm. Yeah, so that's a
pretty amazing accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Well, I never really enjoyed that position. Even today, I run,
I'm anxious.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It wasn't yours.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Maybe, well even now where you know Alex and I
own the company with all the everyone has a piece
of Ye, that's the way to do it. But I
acted at Bloomingdale's like I owned it. Every day I
look at my sales and my But you have to
feel like that. You have to feel owners.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You have to. But but you, you were, you were
the creative genius behind so many of these businesses, and
you you're real telling I think was finding other people
who really came in do it alone, came in there
and designed for you and not do it alone, advised
you on the trends that were necessary. Because look, I mean,
(24:18):
you walk down the street at those in those days,
you walk down the street at least sixty percent of
the people wearing gap at least And then when you started,
Jay Krue, can we get to it? When? When was?
When did that start?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Well, you know I was fired at the Gap with
one day. Notice, yeah, don't ask. Steve Jobs was on
but we were on each other.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
He was on the board.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yes, well he made a deal with me. I didn't
want to go on his board, which was not smart.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
For a year, stupid.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Steve is the most seductive guy in the world when
he won something. So a year he's doing this that,
And of.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
All the Titans, he was my favorite. Oh, the all
smartest guy in the room. Visionary and you have to
see around corners with what you do and I do.
We're not a trendy. We never want to be. So
Steve was on the board and I had him on
the board because he was like West Coast and so
(25:13):
he did it as a face hatesport.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Okay, No, he did it to get me, he said, right,
he said, I said, we got a dal Steve because
I knew he would be Steve Jobs with an inside board.
I didn't have any someone. It was all in which
most boards, you know independent directors. To me, it's all bs,
get your best friends. They're all independent. So he would
(25:38):
be Steve Jobs reverend. They could be rude, he could.
I loved it. But after a year or so, he
calls me at nine o'clock at night. I knew, you
always know when you're gonna get fired or something. You
feel that no one looks at you. And we had
a bad year, so what you always have bad years
(25:59):
or two? So Steve calls me, what shareholders care? Yeah,
they care about that day, of course that day. So anyway,
he calls me at nine o'clock. The board dinner's over,
and he says, they just told me because they were
afraid I was going to tell you that you're being
fired tomorrow. They couldn't tell him, but they had to
(26:21):
tell him at the last, of.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Course, because he's a boy.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So I called don come and see me at eight
in the morning and I get a one page note
after four hundred million to fifteen billion, no earnings to
this and not a billion?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And were you difficult? I think what it was? No difficult?
Every time?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I said once at a meeting, I said, every time
I get mad, you make another billion dollars because I'm impatient.
You know how it is?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, well, I mean so you were considered an impatient difficult,
you know, defin a guy.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
But difficult when people aren't doing what's right and aren't
moving forward. Because I look at every style and I
can have a there's a million examples I find, you know,
by color. Every color is a P and L. And
people will say, well it's not selling. Well, you say, well,
let me see the colors. Two of them sold out,
(27:23):
four bad colors. Change the colors DNA clues.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
So the Old Navy, well that became a huge success
and still is.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, that was my favorite story of all time. Oh
of what I've done is it was a notion and curiosity.
I'll tell you more than J Crew. Oh J Crew
that was started with a base business of then it
was maybe three or four hundred million, and gap. It's
(27:54):
much easier to start and fix than to build a
car or something, you know. And so Old Navy, why
I was I read the New York Times a small article.
Target is twenty five years ago. And I'm competitive as
you are, and you have to be. You're in a
(28:15):
race to stay number one. So they have a quote
someone quote saying this is going to be a cheaper
version of GAP because the GAP was the standard. Then
I got on an airplane the wee could open. I
flew to Mall of America and I looked, and I
was there four minutes. I said, sh this ain't cheaper version.
(28:39):
On the way home to San Francisco, I stopped in
Chicago purposely to visit a couple of stores that were
not in the GAP demographic. I walk in, I speak
to the store managers who knows more and the team.
I said, why do you have all these sale items here?
I said, We're too expensive for most of our customers. Bingo.
(29:00):
So I both stores then and I flew back to
San Francisco. I don't know. I forgot how I got
this statistic. We were a big Genes company, but all
my jeans started thirty four point fifty and thirty dollars
in below eighty percent of the market. I'm just checking
(29:20):
the boxes I get back. I took ten people who
had a demographically matched old Navy's vision and they you know, income,
and I gave each of them then two hundred dollars,
ten of them, ten people I knew everyone whatever I
gave them each two hundred, and I say, I signed
(29:41):
them discount stores. Walmart came on, then Mervin's calls and
and I signed them categories come back. Two weeks later.
We go around the room, and they care about the
same thing I was always wondering about Walmart's eight ninety seven.
(30:02):
They said they want a nice, clean store, they want
nice people, they want nice merchandise. They like fashion the
eight dollars. So anyway, after that meeting, I said, we're
doing it now. When you say you're doing it, Don
was an entrepreneur, so he really just do it whatever,
(30:26):
and then was ready to go. Did I tell you
how we got the name?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Oh? Maybe you did, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Okay, here's very quickly. So when you deal with allied
stores or boards and directors, they don't understand this business.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Not creating money. He's talking about money. I'm talking about creativity,
creativity or whatever we're doing. We're doing hand motions instead
of story.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So anyway, we needed a name. I recruited from a
gap people who were terrific. See that's the How would
you get the name old Navy? I'll tell you how.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I Okay, sold Navy color No I'll tell you how
we got okay, and it was icing on the cake.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
We needed a cool name. Madewell's name was cool. I
bought the name when it was defunct for years. I
loved the name and I liked since night. So anyway,
we're driving to the airport, me Maggie from Paris, because
you know, you go there, you good ideas. It's always
a creative thing. And one Rusmaine. I'm in the back
(31:34):
left seat cheese here, I'm just daydreaming on rousermain. I
see a marquee with neon lights like a kind of
you noticed it and it said Old Navy. I said, Maggie,
that's the name. So I registered in America. Who was
you know, trademarket.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
It was out of the blue. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
But the board like the name four or five million
dollars later in today's money name land Or. I'm going
to the consultants and they give me you can't believe.
So anyway, first store that opened was gap warehouse Old Navy. Hello,
(32:21):
you know it's like anyway exactly whatever. So it took
off like a rocket end. So he went from cap
Old Navy to J Crew. Yeah, you know, I got fired,
(32:41):
but I was happy to get back to how were
you able to drive growth there at J Crew? Well,
it's always it was.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
It was. That was a rocket ship too.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It was. And I always admired that company as a
competitor in its earlier days. I loved their catalog, by
the way, the catalog at Anti Or. I took an
accessory buyer, I said, start a catalog. You know, you
take shots on people, because they a lot of people.
It was good and so anyway, and.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
That was in the day of really good catalog.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
J Crew was basically a discounter. The online business or
the catalog business in everything was a sale. Everything was
on sale, and it was schlocky, and it used to
be very cool. It was a great brand, and then
it wasn't, you know, So I just approached it. I
(33:32):
hired Jeff from Old Navy. I brought in Tracy Gardner
from Gap. I mean, you know, the people who've been there,
done it, and they've climbed the mountain. And I brought
in a number of Gap people and uh, and then
(33:52):
vision the look and my playbook is our playbook is
you can't put it in a report, but you have
it inside of you. You know, all this and a
lot of people don't understand it so well.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I wore J Crew. I mean, we fell in love
with J Crew immediately when you when you took over,
and I wore your denim work shirts. That was my
uniform on television, and I had my daily great never
go out of style. I never. I still have one
whole row of denim shirts in my clothes. And I
wore the casual clothes of J Crew. And they really
(34:33):
influenced American style.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Really they the most. Just this week, one of my assistants,
she's looking up all the old magazine covers and the
one I thought it was most proud of is the
man who dressed America. That was but I never went
to my head because but it's brilliant, because that's what
(34:56):
you did.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You dressed us. Yeah, you dressed us, but it wasn't
anything I but you knew what we should have in
our I just felt it.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I felt it, and when I grew up, my friends,
I still hang out with a couple of grade school
friends Joey gag Gagliano retired policeman to pay carries a
little gun love Joey. Anyway, three or four friends said
I was I don't know why best dressed kid at
PS seventy six. You know I wore the same thing my.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Unif forday, right, you know she knows buckles back and
so you know what the sables were then. But what
essential clothing to get to the present? What are the
essentials today? Well, if I if I need twelve things
in my closet mickey today, Okay, what would you suggest?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That's a good question. And you know we're starting today
a new thing. People need to be told how to
dress in America, the designer business. No comment, but simple
uniform wearing everything vintage right now. You buy something in
style never goes out of fashion. So you do a
(36:09):
I'm not even gonna mention our stuff. You do a
work jacket. We're famous for work jacket.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
It's a pin striped navy jacket. All no, this is
this is but no, no, no, this is not Taylor.
That's fancy tailored. It's fine. I know what it is, okay,
but but this is a this is a man's it's
like a it's like a business suit, pin striped navy
blue business suit, very fancy. But it looks really great
with jeans.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
I mean that's the casual way to dress. And a
white shirt, a white button down men's shirt and button down.
Oh yeah, you have the year from Brooks brother. What
is it?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
It's Ascott changh Okay, I wear I have lots of
Ascot Chang.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I've had a maid in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Me too. And if you advertise expensive clothes, it's cheap. Sure,
this is a eleven years old. This is fancy.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, and it's a beautiful, beautiful end and it's I
have I have an act. You should come and look
at my attic some day I will. Oh boy, I
have so many fabulous clothes, you.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Know, vintage.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I go back in there. I go back in there.
It takes shop your closet every well. And then he
has the navy blue T shirt on under that. Yeah
it's silk. A beautiful silk scarf, a Paisley silk scar
from Michael Drake thirty years old. Okay, that's nice. And
then six things I need. You need a great casual
pant like we have the neo pantka. You need, well,
(37:38):
I'm just a jeans. You need dress pants you don't
need in today's world. Well, you're wearing jeans, right. These
are sort of a gene. It's sort of yeah, but
it's a knit kind of geene. It's beautiful fabric.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You need white. Well, see, I will only wear button
down shirts. I always have the arguments at work. They
do spread colors. I said, do a white do a
pocket tea? We just did. These are all fundamental. What
else do you need you need from us work? Jacket
and woman's want to love your jackets at alex Mill.
(38:10):
Then they're so beautiful, well, and you have to own them.
And I'm always explaining color color is the art, and
you know, it's everything that's visual. You walk into a store,
what's the first thing you see?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Color? Color?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Not in the fancy schmancies, but I call them fancy schmancies.
But whatever, and what else do you need? You need
the sweater? Were you wearing the Jordan's sweater or someone.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
You know it looked like that.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
It looks like you're wearing the Jordan's sweat Men's and exactly.
And then you need well, if you want gloves, we
have a leather lined gloves here like here, If you
want a cashmere hat, very famous for and we're expanding
(39:01):
all these and what else woven shirts? You need a
white shirt. You need stripes, blue and white stripes. You
have beautiful striped shirts. Blue and white stripes. We do
too many. Half this business is in the obvious blue
and white stripes. And I brought in my stripes one
(39:21):
day from ascot Chang. Over fifteen years everything was a
version of a blue and white. It's the go to.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So what do you think about stores like Zara?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
That Zara, they rip phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
They rip off every high fashion in the nicest possible way.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Phenomenal. They do great stuff. Yeah, and I don't like
to say nice things about Competitives.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
That's a Spanish company by the way, and it's centered
in in Madrid, and they are incredible. They're so fashion.
There's fashion forward, but they're also immediate. They pick up
on styles immediately, up in there fast and really good,
really good. And what other brands inspire you or catch
(40:05):
your eye these days?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Well, anything that's old to me catches my eye because
it's lasted, it's perennial, it's whatever the prices you're going
to have it in fifteen years. That's why all these clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean they look absolutely brand new and modern.
And you and you're dressed in vintage.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Almost, but vintage today is so hot because it's original,
it's it's made better than a lot of clothes today.
I agree, cheaper I have, I have.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I never throw my clothes away, so I have several
rooms full of clothes, and I keep saying I have
to get rid of this stuff, you know. But you know,
I have a granddaughter coming up. She's my size and old,
fourteen and she's taller than I am. She can wear
some and I love it when she comes and takes something.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
It's a treasure trove.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
It is.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
My daughter shops from me now because you know, oversized.
Well she's bigger than me, but she shops my closet,
but mostly her own. Yeah, and she dresses style, never
goes out of fashion. Yeah, Peggy, the same thing, And
it wasn't trained.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I have stuff I bought like Aermez from twenty twenty
five years ago and I still wear it. It's beautiful.
Oh look it's an air Mez jacket you have on.
Wasn't that your favorite for tailoring?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Well? Yeah, eventually I used to get others and I
this is fifteen when I used to wear suits and jackets.
But this is an odd jacket. But you know again,
I'm not from the man of Born, but I do
divide by twenty years.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
So what do you think your legacy is at present
and what do you hope it will be in the future.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I'll tell you what is the best compliment I get,
And it has to do with the way I grew up.
Big shots even today are big shots. It's not everyone
my legacy. I always used two words words and sometimes
a third a mensh, hamisha and every person is important
(42:21):
to me. And you know they everyone thinks because oh,
I'm sorry to bothery said this is what I do.
You're not bothering because my calendar is never filled up
with meetings upon meetings, that's it. He also happened to
create whatever. But the person is a lot more important. Well,
if you're successful, then hamisher and a mensch. And there's
(42:45):
no one who I look down at. In fact, today
everyone has that plan of their life. I interviewed to
not interviewed at favor twenty six year old. You want advice,
she worked for consultings, she worked and fine and she
loves fashion whatever that means. And I said, you can't
learn about our business in any class. I like parsons
(43:10):
because people do discern how to learn how to design.
But that's what I like. I like people who say
you know they I want them to know. I'm from
the Bronx born and that's where my values are from. No,
you learn, and you have to make mistakes because you
have this history of learning from every mistake.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Well, to talk to a legend of American fashion has
been just amazing. I'm sure our audience is laughing and
smiling and listening to every single word. Mickey Drexler, Well,
I thank you and thank you for you just said
you have time, but I'm so glad you gave me
the time.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I have as much my calendar as a FMKA because
what's more important not big meetings of the conversation, right, Yeah, conversation.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
And that's what I like about the podcast world is
conversation and getting getting into getting into subjects that you
don't normally hear.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Wait, please tell your friends about Alex Smith. I will. Okay,
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
To thellion million, Now, how many stories do you have?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
We only have three?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
One one in Rockefeller Center in the one right across
from the ice skating rink.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And across from Martha's studio, one in Soho in one
on Madison in eighty seventh. Okay, they're small and I
don't have investors, but that's a whole other time.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Madison in eighty seventh, and we're the other.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
One so on seventy seven Mercers Store.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Okay, seventy seven Mercer Street. You are such a such
a good talker, and such a good entrepreneur, and such
an amazing fashion fashion icon, your.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Stee But I never I never think I can't you know. Yeah,
see this is a little pressure. I'll forget it, but
you are.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Look.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I admire you. As I said, Hard documentary is as
a masterclass in what it takes to be success.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Thank you,
The other day, I got a message out of the
blue from an old friend, Mickey Drexler, who wanted to
catch up again, so I invited him to come on
my podcast. Many of you know Mickey's work well, if
you shopped at Gap, Old Navy, Jay Crewe, or Madewell,
you've likely purchased fashion that he's influenced. Under his leadership,
(00:26):
he grew Gap from a four hundred million dollar company
to a multi billion dollar venture and made Jay Crewe
a leading retailer. And today he has a new venture.
And we are sitting in our beautiful little studio right
at Rockefeller Center, right across from the store called alex
(00:47):
Mill Kismuth. And this features his signature all American style,
and I'm wearing an alex Mill cardigan, which I love.
Is a hard cotton.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I love this and by the way, it's one of
the best sellers. It is and cashmere in the winter.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And the retailer speaks, Welcome to my podcast, Mickey.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's exciting to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Really great to see you again up close and personal.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
This is fun. And Mickey is a great raconteur. He's
known for his ability to talk talk talk, talk, talk,
and tell stories, and every single one of the things
he says is interesting. That's what we love about Mickey
Drexler so and he's also one of the most creative
men persons, one of the most creative persons I have
(01:37):
ever met, really and truly. From the minute I met you.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Can I just say how we first met? Yes, you
do not remember when I was kind of just married.
My wife Peggy and I had a cut up, small,
cut up apartment on Park Avenue. The city was going bankrupt.
Guests who catered a dinner her now her apartment. It
(02:03):
was the before she was Martha Stewart. She was there
cooking and serving. It must have been nineteen seventy eight
or very early on, right, and I didn't who knew?
I have your contract from that dinner. I am going
to look it up.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh when I go home, I'm looking up that contract
and seeing how much you paid for that.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, well, I want to say you had your finger
on the scale.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I think it was probably about twelve dollars a person.
At that time. It was a bargain.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
But who knows who knew?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
That is so funny, Mickey. Well, I was just in
the store right across from our studio, as I said,
Alex mill and it's named after your son, Alex.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Alex started it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
This is Millard Drexler, by the way, whose name, nickname
is Mickey, and nobody calls him anything but Mickey. Well,
what was it like to watch your son build a
brand in an industry where you've devoted your entire higher
career after going I mean I read about your education.
I mean you went to Bronx Science and how did
you get to be a garmento out of Bronx Science.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, you know, it's funny being a garmento or doing
what I do. First of all, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Just not a derogatory term, by the way, right the
Calvin Klein was a garmento Ralph l from the Bronx No, no,
these are the billionaires of billionaires.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Let me it was there was no master plan. Every
young person I meet them all they want to have
a master plan at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen twenty five. And
you know, I say, I connect the dots backwards. Who
plans what you're going to do as you? I mean,
(03:47):
who knew you? Never thought about it? You had the
little shop in Westport. So I was very fortunate to
get into science. And the reason I was fortunate is
it was a whole new milieu of everyone went to
college in my family on my mother's side, the Jewish family,
the kibbutz in the Bronx. I was the only one.
(04:10):
And it's still stunning. And there was no educational ethic.
I get into science. I didn't want to go. I
went there, hated it for four years. Where did you
want to go? You know, it's a good question. I
would have gone. No, I didn't know. I was just,
you know, going to wherever I was.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Science is one of the foremost schools, public schools in
New York, and you can hard to get in there.
I mean, very few kids. Well that's true, but I
was like going to LaGuardia, you know, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So I, all of a sudden, was incredible, all of
a sudden, intimidated by the students, and I was. I
hated school. I had a school phobia since kindergarten. And
then I'd sit next to them. There's a guy named
Philip Hella right here in the next seat. Every freaking
he get an a plus and a minus. And I
(05:04):
stopped asking him, Philip, how did you do? I just
wanted to get through it, which I did. I then
went to City College because in my family there was
no one spoke he should go here. And then I
had to leave town. That's a personal story. So I
went to Buffalo for my last two years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh he did university Buffalo. But what a nice place
to go. Yeah, Buffalo was good.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, it was good because I had to escape.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Okay, So how did you find fashion from Buffalo?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You know, it's funny. I don't know. My father worked.
He didn't fit my job description of a good father.
But he used to work in a shipping room in
the garments center for Junior Small Young Person's coat company,
and I always fantasized he was a big shot. He
(05:54):
never was, because he acted like one. But I used
to work there. He always forced me to work, not graciously,
but I thank him maybe for that. And I always worked,
so I was near the coats. I delivered the coats
to the stores, the samples, the piece goods. And then
(06:14):
I had got a job during the summer at Abraham
and Strauss in Brooklyn, A and S which is no longer,
and I worked for Ken Hirsch's, a millionaire. I remember
him as a good boss. You always remember good bosses
in the young men's jeens department. Not that I it
was no fashion thing, but I loved the energy. I
(06:35):
loved that I was working. I loved the fact that
I made a minimum plause salary for the summer. And
then I interviewed at retailers and I wrote letters to
a lot of people I hate. Today, if I don't
get an answer back, I'll never forget the companies I hated.
I write a note, I send the resume. At least
(06:57):
be polite enough and adswer to acknowledge. And that's how
I feel. But well, the world now just say hello,
even if you're a big shot. You don't need me there.
Then I interviewed Bloomingdale's. Bloomingdale's then in nineteen sixty nine
ers I loved it was a very hot company. Upper
east Side cool, and I interviewed there. Upperside is really
(07:18):
like sixtieth Street and then but now everything's cool. And yeah,
it was then the you know, quote unquote the place.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Oh, and they had such innovative merchandising, innovative.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, it was the culture and it's always the culture.
And I can have an you know, private story about
that part Anyway, I loved it. My first assignment, I
was very lucky. Second day I was. First day I
was in the house swister, but I don't know what
the hell I was doing. And I worked for a
guy named Tim Morgan. Very cool guy, let's forget handsome,
(07:54):
cool whatever. And the next day my then boss, Stanley
Stern said, you're going to run the Lexington level department.
The buyer barber Saint Andrew's on maternity leave. So they
throw me in there and I'm for six months. I'm
loving it. I'm the best selling. I think a lot
(08:16):
of it was, well, everything's intuitive, Yeah, how did you
do what you do? It's in your imagination. I was
really good at it, but I didn't know it was,
you know. And then that's how I got in and
I there six years. I quit, made a mistake, went
to Macy's for a year and a half. I quit.
I quit, and I'm saying, what the hell am I
(08:37):
going to? Then I ended up at Anne Taylor at
thirty five years old as a CEO. Anyway, I worked there,
but I'll tell you what I learned there. I hated
the fact that when I was at Bloomingdale's Alexander's only
you remember Discounter, They'd have my goods there on sale,
and then I had to mark down the goods. Now
people don't get it on me price, most of them,
(09:00):
and I hated that I had no control. I didn't
say this ap loud, it's internal. And when I got
to Ann Taylor, Brooks Brothers then was pretty prestigious while
it was in those days and Alloyed Stores owned Brooks Brothers,
and I used to sit in meetings there and the
(09:21):
light went on because Brooks Brothers owned their label and
it wasn't you know, Harry Schmoey or whatever label that
sells fifty stores, which happens today. And I went to
our three biggest vendors who had names. Then I forgot
it was whatever the names were, and I asked them
(09:44):
with our team to do a collection of Ann Taylor's studio,
because for me, if you don't control your inventory, it's
not safe. You can wake up like I'd wake up.
I was a swimsuit buy among other things. Alexander's had
a mid June swimsuit sale every year, and I had
(10:06):
to mark down my inventory. Is but now no one
pays attention to other pricing. That's a whole other issue. Pricing.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Oh yeah, a whole other issue. I know all of
that from from well, you know, from Macy's. Oh my gosh.
Macy's was my biggest, my biggest fashion fashion I remember
that I first. Yeah, and before that, Kmart was my biggest.
And that was that was the best. That was the best.
That was the best business deal I ever had. Zeddy
(10:35):
Lampert was there then, no prior. This was the old
k Mart where we were selling almost two billion dollars
worth of merchandise every year, Oh my god. And I
was getting I was clearing sixty million dollars in royalties.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Clear you deserved it. I did, created value.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Did and that was the best because they had they knew,
they knew how to make product. They didn't know any
thing about inventory, they didn't know anything about a lot
of other things in retailing. But as a major, they
were the largest retailer in America at the time, and
they were bigger than Walmart.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And they they made. I still have everything I made
for Kmart, designed for Kmart, I still have and still
use because it was so good.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Keep it simple, smart, right, and don't change it. No,
the way.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
No, everyone was perfect, and then they didn't. They had
no inventory controls, they didn't know about computers, they didn't
know anything about modern retailing. And Walmart came and just
killed them. Well wart Walmart and then Target. Target was
tiny at the time they came in, and Kmart just
faded away.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Do you know what's happening related to that? And if
I'm talking too much, no, we love talking Related to
that is today the world most retailers, no matter who,
are discounters and you got to be there on the
right day, on the right time. I know companies very well.
They have online sales. It's full price in the shops.
(12:07):
It's not federal customer and the best retail She doesn't
like when I say this, Well I say it all
the time. They say Who's who do you respect the most?
TJ Max.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
They're my biggest They're my biggest, biggest retailer. Now, so
you know Carol Myers, of course I love her best.
She is the smartest and steadfast and retailer and humble, steadfast.
They have an idea, they have stuck by their idea
and they're not veered off. And you know, you go
in and the stock has gone just inches up every
(12:40):
year to a new high and new high and new
high because they invented integrity in this county. Yes, but
when you go into a TJ Max every you trust
the pricing because it's not.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Today, only tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Get it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Even on TV. I'm watching the news this morning. They
everyone has to have a deal and a sale. The
integrity of the business. Where is it?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I said, this is a great ad this window Anderson
Window tell me about why their windows are the best.
And I'm saying, wow, I'm impressed. And then this week
by March thirtieth, I said, they destroy the culture anyway,
TJ Max. After that, the world's going their home goods store.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I mean, it's amazing, so much stuff in that store
because they buy a certain quantity and it's gone, and
then the next quantity comes in and it's gone. Yes, right,
the people wait wait for it.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Well, they trust, well it's you know you, And they
trust the names. They trust their brand and the price.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
They have many many brands in that store.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
It's about the history and the integrity and the style
and products the most important thing in the world. But
I don't know if everyone believes that.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, let's talk about a little bit more about fashion
and uh. And the first of all, in your newest
venture with your with your son Alex Mills, who is
your competition for these lovely clothes?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Well, I learned about forty years ago there was a
company called it was a children's little company. Lou Russe
owned health text And I said to Lou, who is
your competition? I'll never forget this. Anyone with a sewing machine?
What an answer? Yeah, And you know everyone's a competitor,
(14:32):
and you just have to have a point of view
my case now, okay, nice product, point of view, integrity
on pricing and not on sale every week. You know
Macy's assistant buyers sale, then they had whatever sale and
they all these.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Macy's has gone from thousands of stores to a few stores. Yeah,
well and there are and they're on this and they're
on the chopping block every single day. Well, it's the
demise of a great American brand.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yep. Well it's you know the multi brand. All the
department stores and allowed it comes the multi brand. They
sell all the brands. And I always say with them
on let's semb see my advice before you give the
credit card, go online for that product. Go online and
see who's selling in our case, some people I don't
(15:22):
know where they get it, but you know they might
have a few pieces. But you know, we don't sell
anyone who's going to market the brand. Okay, but everything
is about the brand and this relationship to a consumer.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, the point of view is nice. It's a kind
of a casual, well made. We notice the cardigans, those
pretty colored cardigans with tiny little button, many little buttons.
That's a different thing.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's our best style.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You just oh it is see you see, But I
noticed all those buttons because no other cardigan sweater has
all those buttons. They might have eight buttons at the most.
This one has like twenty something button. This okay, I
notice picked it so.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And I picked up this beautiful Mitchell car Mitchell, Mitchell Mitchell.
See we're going to change all the names. Mitchell is
no one our latest pan make it, Martha, make this.
I'm going to give a Martha Steward. You know I'm
putting your name on the window. You said, yes, no, Martha,
Martha loves Alex.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I'm a tractor supply. Now I heard that business is
raging good. I read about it tractor supply because the
CEO left home depot and started this little farm store
where he was going to offer just things that the
farmer needed. And we have a lot of farmers now,
even a back I'm a backyard farmer. I mean I
(16:46):
have forever, yeah, forever. But now I have one hundred
and fifty acres in Bedford, and I need tractor supply
because I go there for my chicken feed, I go
there for tools, I go there for fencing, I go
there for stuff. And so now I have a nice
line of garden clothes.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
You know you just gave me. I do quotes all
the time, going the famous for famous for well known for.
Every business needs to choose and know and have customers
know what they're known. So that's what Alex Mills. You
need that you need that that slogan on the window.
(17:25):
I'm going, can you be We don't have a board,
but you'll.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Be, okay. I'll be on your board when it when
and if you need a board.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
We need okay. We always can learn. And that's it.
And most people aren't curious enough. I get I snip
out little pictures.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Mickey Drexler is one of the most curious men on earth,
not only evidenced by the companies that he has built
and the fashions he has has promoted. But but in
his homes, Oh, I still remember every one of your
homes that I've seen, so beautiful. How's your garden in
Bridge Hampton?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, Bridge Hampton, Well, you'll come over. Did you sell
youry Stampton?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I did?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I heard that, But no, I I go to Maine.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I have my beautiful place in Maine, and my daughter
and the grandkids love Maine. They have things to do,
like mountains to climb.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, and you're on the hill top, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yes, very special. So but you had one of the
most beautiful gardens in the Hampton's and it is that
your wife's project or your project? Well?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Guard you know we had a Terry Despine may West
in Peace.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Oh, I know you knew Terry. Oh he was my
boyfriend Fred. Remember Terry Despine Cherry T H I E.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
R R. Y.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
He was a Frenchman from Brittany and he was one
of the greatest interior designers as ever lived, and a
very fine artist also. And he and I had like
a fling for a year or so, and that's when
he was working for you. You were his biggest client at
the time, and what were your challenges when you were
brought on to the Gap? Ohne eighty night.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I started there. I ran Antaylor for four years and
they had that awful company bias, and then I moved
to say, I don't know if you ever know Rose Wells.
She ran down of the retail garment. Rose was friendly
with Don, the founder of Gap, and she and I
were good friendship. Always was a fan, and she told
(19:33):
in the Gap in nineteen eighty three, was either going
to go this way or this way.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You can't see that. It's either up or down. Oh okay,
Oh this is radio. Okay, we're not on TV. We're
on radio anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But they were famous for fall into the Gap, very tacky,
horrible clothes. Yeah, everything was on sale. He started as
Levi's only store. So I get there. I'm just going
to give you a few tells. I get there a
mess and working, you know, when you have a chairman
who's but it was always avivalent. Yeah, just he was concerned.
(20:16):
I was taking too. You have to get rid of
your bad inventory. So I liquid dated most of the goods,
and of course the stock and the you know, and
the earnings when you liquid date your goods, it's like
getting rid of stale fish. If you keep it, it
ties up the cash. So I got there. I'm going
to tell you so. I used to visit stores. They
(20:39):
know more than anyone in the business. Someone on the
selling floor, which in the big departments there's God forbid,
and I can't speak to other smaller companies. So go
to Houston Gallery in Texas. I remember this as one
of those moments, and I said, what did I get
myself into it? I park in the parking lot. I
(21:01):
see flyers on all the cars today, only gap thirty
percent off everything. Oh my god. No one wouldn't believe me.
So I walked and Hector was the store manager. I
just meant him. I said, Hector, what is this? He goes,
if we having a slow day, we do a sale.
(21:23):
That was That's the tell. Everything was cheap. Everything was
on sale. And they had twenty different brand names. And
you know, it's like you being Martha Stewart, Susie Schwartz,
this everyone Fox Tales. They did surveys. I don't do
any surveys. You know, were focus groups. My board forced
(21:47):
me into one or two to rear view mirror. What
are they doing. They're getting paid. It's probably like Nielsen,
who knows. So anyway, a mess, a disaster public company.
I was scared for the first year or so. Don
was great at really we rid did We had four
hundred stores and we redid all of them and I
(22:09):
re merchant. Well, I threw out all the crap. Stock
went fifty percent down and like, oh my god. Then
we had a meeting. I'll never forget launching the New Gap,
never called New Gap.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
But it was so fabulous. So it was it was fabulous,
thank you. So.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
But I had a vision I had on a piece
of paper when I was at Anne Taylor, if I
were going to start. I really wanted to start it coming.
But then people didn't get oh he has ten million,
just started in fail. So I had on a piece
of paper in my desk drawer what I wanted to do.
So the company was told August, my birthday's August seventeen,
(22:50):
all the goods, this is a year.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Elo Leo Leo August thirty.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Okay, well yeah, we'll share next. We've got to do
it anyway, So middle of August, I'll never forget. We're
in a meeting in Carmel, which you've been there. It's
a snooze. But whatever. Anyway, in New York, when you
grow up in New York, it's very different than all those.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But maybe it was good that you went to California
because you created in the Gap the iconic American style
for everybody. That's what you did. That's what the Gap did,
and you were at the Helm. Yeah, so that's a
pretty amazing accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Well, I never really enjoyed that position. Even today, I run,
I'm anxious.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It wasn't yours.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Maybe, well even now where you know Alex and I
own the company with all the everyone has a piece
of Ye, that's the way to do it. But I
acted at Bloomingdale's like I owned it. Every day I
look at my sales and my But you have to
feel like that. You have to feel owners.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You have to. But but you, you were, you were
the creative genius behind so many of these businesses, and
you you're real telling I think was finding other people
who really came in do it alone, came in there
and designed for you and not do it alone, advised
you on the trends that were necessary. Because look, I mean,
(24:18):
you walk down the street at those in those days,
you walk down the street at least sixty percent of
the people wearing gap at least And then when you started,
Jay Krue, can we get to it? When? When was?
When did that start?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Well, you know I was fired at the Gap with
one day. Notice, yeah, don't ask. Steve Jobs was on
but we were on each other.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
He was on the board.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yes, well he made a deal with me. I didn't
want to go on his board, which was not smart.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
For a year, stupid.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Steve is the most seductive guy in the world when
he won something. So a year he's doing this that,
And of.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
All the Titans, he was my favorite. Oh, the all
smartest guy in the room. Visionary and you have to
see around corners with what you do and I do.
We're not a trendy. We never want to be. So
Steve was on the board and I had him on
the board because he was like West Coast and so
(25:13):
he did it as a face hatesport.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Okay, No, he did it to get me, he said, right,
he said, I said, we got a dal Steve because
I knew he would be Steve Jobs with an inside board.
I didn't have any someone. It was all in which
most boards, you know independent directors. To me, it's all bs,
get your best friends. They're all independent. So he would
(25:38):
be Steve Jobs reverend. They could be rude, he could.
I loved it. But after a year or so, he
calls me at nine o'clock at night. I knew, you
always know when you're gonna get fired or something. You
feel that no one looks at you. And we had
a bad year, so what you always have bad years
(25:59):
or two? So Steve calls me, what shareholders care? Yeah,
they care about that day, of course that day. So anyway,
he calls me at nine o'clock. The board dinner's over,
and he says, they just told me because they were
afraid I was going to tell you that you're being
fired tomorrow. They couldn't tell him, but they had to
(26:21):
tell him at the last, of.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Course, because he's a boy.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So I called don come and see me at eight
in the morning and I get a one page note
after four hundred million to fifteen billion, no earnings to
this and not a billion?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And were you difficult? I think what it was? No difficult?
Every time?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I said once at a meeting, I said, every time
I get mad, you make another billion dollars because I'm impatient.
You know how it is?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, well, I mean so you were considered an impatient difficult,
you know, defin a guy.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
But difficult when people aren't doing what's right and aren't
moving forward. Because I look at every style and I
can have a there's a million examples I find, you know,
by color. Every color is a P and L. And
people will say, well it's not selling. Well, you say, well,
let me see the colors. Two of them sold out,
(27:23):
four bad colors. Change the colors DNA clues.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
So the Old Navy, well that became a huge success
and still is.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, that was my favorite story of all time. Oh
of what I've done is it was a notion and curiosity.
I'll tell you more than J Crew. Oh J Crew
that was started with a base business of then it
was maybe three or four hundred million, and gap. It's
(27:54):
much easier to start and fix than to build a
car or something, you know. And so Old Navy, why
I was I read the New York Times a small article.
Target is twenty five years ago. And I'm competitive as
you are, and you have to be. You're in a
(28:15):
race to stay number one. So they have a quote
someone quote saying this is going to be a cheaper
version of GAP because the GAP was the standard. Then
I got on an airplane the wee could open. I
flew to Mall of America and I looked, and I
was there four minutes. I said, sh this ain't cheaper version.
(28:39):
On the way home to San Francisco, I stopped in
Chicago purposely to visit a couple of stores that were
not in the GAP demographic. I walk in, I speak
to the store managers who knows more and the team.
I said, why do you have all these sale items here?
I said, We're too expensive for most of our customers. Bingo.
(29:00):
So I both stores then and I flew back to
San Francisco. I don't know. I forgot how I got
this statistic. We were a big Genes company, but all
my jeans started thirty four point fifty and thirty dollars
in below eighty percent of the market. I'm just checking
(29:20):
the boxes I get back. I took ten people who
had a demographically matched old Navy's vision and they you know, income,
and I gave each of them then two hundred dollars,
ten of them, ten people I knew everyone whatever I
gave them each two hundred, and I say, I signed
(29:41):
them discount stores. Walmart came on, then Mervin's calls and
and I signed them categories come back. Two weeks later.
We go around the room, and they care about the
same thing I was always wondering about Walmart's eight ninety seven.
(30:02):
They said they want a nice, clean store, they want
nice people, they want nice merchandise. They like fashion the
eight dollars. So anyway, after that meeting, I said, we're
doing it now. When you say you're doing it, Don
was an entrepreneur, so he really just do it whatever,
(30:26):
and then was ready to go. Did I tell you
how we got the name?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Oh? Maybe you did, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Okay, here's very quickly. So when you deal with allied
stores or boards and directors, they don't understand this business.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Not creating money. He's talking about money. I'm talking about creativity,
creativity or whatever we're doing. We're doing hand motions instead
of story.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So anyway, we needed a name. I recruited from a
gap people who were terrific. See that's the How would
you get the name old Navy? I'll tell you how.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I Okay, sold Navy color No I'll tell you how
we got okay, and it was icing on the cake.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
We needed a cool name. Madewell's name was cool. I
bought the name when it was defunct for years. I
loved the name and I liked since night. So anyway,
we're driving to the airport, me Maggie from Paris, because
you know, you go there, you good ideas. It's always
a creative thing. And one Rusmaine. I'm in the back
(31:34):
left seat cheese here, I'm just daydreaming on rousermain. I
see a marquee with neon lights like a kind of
you noticed it and it said Old Navy. I said, Maggie,
that's the name. So I registered in America. Who was
you know, trademarket.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
It was out of the blue. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
But the board like the name four or five million
dollars later in today's money name land Or. I'm going
to the consultants and they give me you can't believe.
So anyway, first store that opened was gap warehouse Old Navy. Hello,
(32:21):
you know it's like anyway exactly whatever. So it took
off like a rocket end. So he went from cap
Old Navy to J Crew. Yeah, you know, I got fired,
(32:41):
but I was happy to get back to how were
you able to drive growth there at J Crew? Well,
it's always it was.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
It was. That was a rocket ship too.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It was. And I always admired that company as a
competitor in its earlier days. I loved their catalog, by
the way, the catalog at Anti Or. I took an
accessory buyer, I said, start a catalog. You know, you
take shots on people, because they a lot of people.
It was good and so anyway, and.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
That was in the day of really good catalog.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
J Crew was basically a discounter. The online business or
the catalog business in everything was a sale. Everything was
on sale, and it was schlocky, and it used to
be very cool. It was a great brand, and then
it wasn't, you know, So I just approached it. I
(33:32):
hired Jeff from Old Navy. I brought in Tracy Gardner
from Gap. I mean, you know, the people who've been there,
done it, and they've climbed the mountain. And I brought
in a number of Gap people and uh, and then
(33:52):
vision the look and my playbook is our playbook is
you can't put it in a report, but you have
it inside of you. You know, all this and a
lot of people don't understand it so well.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I wore J Crew. I mean, we fell in love
with J Crew immediately when you when you took over,
and I wore your denim work shirts. That was my
uniform on television, and I had my daily great never
go out of style. I never. I still have one
whole row of denim shirts in my clothes. And I
wore the casual clothes of J Crew. And they really
(34:33):
influenced American style.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Really they the most. Just this week, one of my assistants,
she's looking up all the old magazine covers and the
one I thought it was most proud of is the
man who dressed America. That was but I never went
to my head because but it's brilliant, because that's what
(34:56):
you did.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You dressed us. Yeah, you dressed us, but it wasn't
anything I but you knew what we should have in
our I just felt it.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I felt it, and when I grew up, my friends,
I still hang out with a couple of grade school
friends Joey gag Gagliano retired policeman to pay carries a
little gun love Joey. Anyway, three or four friends said
I was I don't know why best dressed kid at
PS seventy six. You know I wore the same thing my.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Unif forday, right, you know she knows buckles back and
so you know what the sables were then. But what
essential clothing to get to the present? What are the
essentials today? Well, if I if I need twelve things
in my closet mickey today, Okay, what would you suggest?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That's a good question. And you know we're starting today
a new thing. People need to be told how to
dress in America, the designer business. No comment, but simple
uniform wearing everything vintage right now. You buy something in
style never goes out of fashion. So you do a
(36:09):
I'm not even gonna mention our stuff. You do a
work jacket. We're famous for work jacket.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
It's a pin striped navy jacket. All no, this is
this is but no, no, no, this is not Taylor.
That's fancy tailored. It's fine. I know what it is, okay,
but but this is a this is a man's it's
like a it's like a business suit, pin striped navy
blue business suit, very fancy. But it looks really great
with jeans.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
I mean that's the casual way to dress. And a
white shirt, a white button down men's shirt and button down.
Oh yeah, you have the year from Brooks brother. What
is it?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
It's Ascott changh Okay, I wear I have lots of
Ascot Chang.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I've had a maid in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Me too. And if you advertise expensive clothes, it's cheap. Sure,
this is a eleven years old. This is fancy.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, and it's a beautiful, beautiful end and it's I
have I have an act. You should come and look
at my attic some day I will. Oh boy, I
have so many fabulous clothes, you.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Know, vintage.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I go back in there. I go back in there.
It takes shop your closet every well. And then he
has the navy blue T shirt on under that. Yeah
it's silk. A beautiful silk scarf, a Paisley silk scar
from Michael Drake thirty years old. Okay, that's nice. And
then six things I need. You need a great casual
pant like we have the neo pantka. You need, well,
(37:38):
I'm just a jeans. You need dress pants you don't
need in today's world. Well, you're wearing jeans, right. These
are sort of a gene. It's sort of yeah, but
it's a knit kind of geene. It's beautiful fabric.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You need white. Well, see, I will only wear button
down shirts. I always have the arguments at work. They
do spread colors. I said, do a white do a
pocket tea? We just did. These are all fundamental. What
else do you need you need from us work? Jacket
and woman's want to love your jackets at alex Mill.
(38:10):
Then they're so beautiful, well, and you have to own them.
And I'm always explaining color color is the art, and
you know, it's everything that's visual. You walk into a store,
what's the first thing you see?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Color? Color?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Not in the fancy schmancies, but I call them fancy schmancies.
But whatever, and what else do you need? You need
the sweater? Were you wearing the Jordan's sweater or someone.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
You know it looked like that.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
It looks like you're wearing the Jordan's sweat Men's and exactly.
And then you need well, if you want gloves, we
have a leather lined gloves here like here, If you
want a cashmere hat, very famous for and we're expanding
(39:01):
all these and what else woven shirts? You need a
white shirt. You need stripes, blue and white stripes. You
have beautiful striped shirts. Blue and white stripes. We do
too many. Half this business is in the obvious blue
and white stripes. And I brought in my stripes one
(39:21):
day from ascot Chang. Over fifteen years everything was a
version of a blue and white. It's the go to.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So what do you think about stores like Zara?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
That Zara, they rip phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
They rip off every high fashion in the nicest possible way.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Phenomenal. They do great stuff. Yeah, and I don't like
to say nice things about Competitives.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
That's a Spanish company by the way, and it's centered
in in Madrid, and they are incredible. They're so fashion.
There's fashion forward, but they're also immediate. They pick up
on styles immediately, up in there fast and really good,
really good. And what other brands inspire you or catch
(40:05):
your eye these days?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Well, anything that's old to me catches my eye because
it's lasted, it's perennial, it's whatever the prices you're going
to have it in fifteen years. That's why all these clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean they look absolutely brand new and modern.
And you and you're dressed in vintage.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Almost, but vintage today is so hot because it's original,
it's it's made better than a lot of clothes today.
I agree, cheaper I have, I have.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I never throw my clothes away, so I have several
rooms full of clothes, and I keep saying I have
to get rid of this stuff, you know. But you know,
I have a granddaughter coming up. She's my size and old,
fourteen and she's taller than I am. She can wear
some and I love it when she comes and takes something.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
It's a treasure trove.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
It is.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
My daughter shops from me now because you know, oversized.
Well she's bigger than me, but she shops my closet,
but mostly her own. Yeah, and she dresses style, never
goes out of fashion. Yeah, Peggy, the same thing, And
it wasn't trained.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I have stuff I bought like Aermez from twenty twenty
five years ago and I still wear it. It's beautiful.
Oh look it's an air Mez jacket you have on.
Wasn't that your favorite for tailoring?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Well? Yeah, eventually I used to get others and I
this is fifteen when I used to wear suits and jackets.
But this is an odd jacket. But you know again,
I'm not from the man of Born, but I do
divide by twenty years.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
So what do you think your legacy is at present
and what do you hope it will be in the future.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I'll tell you what is the best compliment I get,
And it has to do with the way I grew up.
Big shots even today are big shots. It's not everyone
my legacy. I always used two words words and sometimes
a third a mensh, hamisha and every person is important
(42:21):
to me. And you know they everyone thinks because oh,
I'm sorry to bothery said this is what I do.
You're not bothering because my calendar is never filled up
with meetings upon meetings, that's it. He also happened to
create whatever. But the person is a lot more important. Well,
if you're successful, then hamisher and a mensch. And there's
(42:45):
no one who I look down at. In fact, today
everyone has that plan of their life. I interviewed to
not interviewed at favor twenty six year old. You want advice,
she worked for consultings, she worked and fine and she
loves fashion whatever that means. And I said, you can't
learn about our business in any class. I like parsons
(43:10):
because people do discern how to learn how to design.
But that's what I like. I like people who say
you know they I want them to know. I'm from
the Bronx born and that's where my values are from. No,
you learn, and you have to make mistakes because you
have this history of learning from every mistake.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Well, to talk to a legend of American fashion has
been just amazing. I'm sure our audience is laughing and
smiling and listening to every single word. Mickey Drexler, Well,
I thank you and thank you for you just said
you have time, but I'm so glad you gave me
the time.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I have as much my calendar as a FMKA because
what's more important not big meetings of the conversation, right, Yeah, conversation.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
And that's what I like about the podcast world is
conversation and getting getting into getting into subjects that you
don't normally hear.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Wait, please tell your friends about Alex Smith. I will. Okay,
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
To thellion million, Now, how many stories do you have?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
We only have three?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
One one in Rockefeller Center in the one right across
from the ice skating rink.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And across from Martha's studio, one in Soho in one
on Madison in eighty seventh. Okay, they're small and I
don't have investors, but that's a whole other time.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Madison in eighty seventh, and we're the other.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
One so on seventy seven Mercers Store.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Okay, seventy seven Mercer Street. You are such a such
a good talker, and such a good entrepreneur, and such
an amazing fashion fashion icon, your.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Stee But I never I never think I can't you know. Yeah,
see this is a little pressure. I'll forget it, but
you are.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Look.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I admire you. As I said, Hard documentary is as
a masterclass in what it takes to be success.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Thank you,
Host
Martha Stewart
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