August 24, 2022 • 52 mins
Jack Algiere and Eliot Coleman are giants in the US organic farming revolution. Eliot, inspired by the pioneering Scott and Helen Nearing, followed their lead into organic farming in Maine 56 years ago. His work, in turn, has influenced scores of other farmers, including Jack Algiere, who developed the agricultural systems at the famed Stone Barns Center for Agriculture. Martha follows their farming practices in her own gardens, and talks to them about the importance of a sustainable, regenerative growing system.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My attitude about the world. The running out of food
is no, it isn't. You just have to realize that
Mother nature systems are incredibly productive and you just have
to plug into them. Hi. Everyone, I'm Martha Stewart. Today.
I'm so happy to have two fantastic men on the program.
(00:24):
These men are gardeners. They are perhaps two of the
finest gardeners in America. Jack Algier and Elliott Coleman are
joining me. They are two of the best known advocates
of sustainable organic farming in the United States. Both men
have inspired and influenced the way I grow food here
(00:45):
at my own farm. Elliott is joining me from Harborside, Maine,
where he is a farmer and author, an agricultural researcher,
and a proponent of organic farming. He is famous for
developing a unique year round method of cultivating organic vegetables
even during the winter time in Maine. Jack Algier is
(01:08):
the director of agro Ecology at Stone Barns Center, where
he works to train the next generation of young farmers.
Something that we can all agree is vital. Jack is
here with me in person, and we just returned from
a tour of my gardens and greenhouses. Where do you think,
Jack spectacular am I doing? Okay? You blew my mind.
(01:33):
I've been here before and it is a gorgeous landscaping forest.
So glad to see it. Thank you. Well. We're both
experienced and passionate gardeners and farmers, and now, more than
ever before, people are getting into their own backyards to garden.
The pandemic certainly encouraged packyard gardening in a way that
(01:55):
nothing has ever before. I don't even think Victory Garden
was as prolific as this kind of COVID gardening has become. Yeah,
I think that's true. I think that's true. Everyone was
stuck at home. I suppose that was the big difference.
But what I wanted to get from both you today
and from Elliott, and I think we could ask Elliott
(02:16):
to join us now, if you don't mind Elliott's in Harborside, Maine.
You have been such an inspiration to me, Elliott and
you know that, and we we worked together on so
many wonderful articles and stories. I'm just the simple farmer
out here in the woods. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah,
you have written at least four fantastic books for season harvest.
(02:39):
I have one right here, and this is Organic Vegetables
from your Home Garden all year long and the New
Organic Grower, another fantastic book that we rely on for
really good information. You have done a tremendous service to
so many home gardeners and your tools. We are you
(03:00):
still are you both collaborating on tools for Johnny's. We
have been working quite a bit on different tools over
the years, for sure. Yeah. Well those tools are in
my headhouse in the greenhouse, and they are used by
Ryan and Brian at the farm here and all the
other guys. They fight over the tools because they are effective,
(03:21):
they are sensible, and it's really great to have those tools,
and and um you can get if if you're the listeners.
Please note that Johnny's Seeds has a whole section of
their catalog devoted to wonderful tools, many of which were
designed by Elliott at first and then by both of you.
(03:42):
Now right, I'm solely an advocate, but I've certainly uh
had our hand in our work to to work on
slow tools and designing small tools for for a good farm.
So you call them slow tools, these are non mechanical
tools pretty much, right, Yeah, for the hand for the handcraft, Yes,
and since my favorite way to garden is by hand.
(04:03):
Even though I've been learning how to use all the machinery,
I can drive tractors now, Elliott, yep, I can I
can hey the fields Elliott bail the hey. But but
I do. I do like getting out there even without
gloves onto my manicurist Dismay, and I can pick weeds
(04:24):
for hours, and I get such a satisfaction out of
doing that. What is it about farming that the next
generation has to understand? What is it that's going on
now that has to be either fixed or implemented, or
repaired or just taught. So, Jack, what is the first
(04:47):
thing we have to teach? Well, I think the first
thing that teaches that no one needs to do this alone.
That's never what it was like. You know. The reality
is there's so much to learn from a community of
people around you, whether whether starting a garden or a farm. Um.
You know, there's so much of this spirit of do
it yourself. Um. But it's the community that that enriches
(05:09):
the whole thing, and there's so much to learn from
each other. In many ways, gardening is this, and farming
for that matter, is a little bit of a spectator sport.
You know, people people watch and they pay attention and
often learn more from the failures and the things that
don't go right as we navigate that. And so I
think people, uh, it's good to see what other people
(05:30):
do and try those things and know that there's uh,
there's never a truly perfect but there's also never a
total failure, and there's so much to learn in that space.
Without that, you can't have the longevity to really practice
and be good at it, and you have to stay
with it. Yeah, and what what do what do you say, Elliott?
One of the most interesting things about farming and its
(05:54):
connection to the world we live in is organic farming
has shown that if you understand how the natural system
works and work along with it, you're gonna have food.
That there's nothing complicated about it, that the mother nature
wants us to be well fed. And the systems are
(06:17):
so basic and straightforward to people who understand that the
natural world is the most magnificent system ever set up,
and we just need to figure out how to plug
into it. There's a line in a wonderful old book
from Liberty Hyde Bailey, who was a classic horticulturalist at
(06:40):
the cornell and other places. And he's suggesting how you
can learn about things and how to do this and
was it very simple line He just said, go out
in the backyard, look down and ask yourself, oh, why
is that weed growing right there? He said, By the
(07:02):
time you've answered that question, you've had a whole education
in botany, horticulture and everything else. And so if you're
a gardener and you want to grow a corner a
plant or a tomato plant, you need to figure out
how to create conditions that are as amenable for that
plant as the conditions that the weed your feet naturally
(07:27):
chose because they were perfect. That's good advice, very much.
If we want to just start a garden in our backyard, Okay,
we have a twelve by twelve foot piece of ground
that is sunny, we can fence it and we can
grow a few vegetables and some herbs. What's our first step, Jack, Well,
(07:52):
the first thing, of course, you have to the grass
is its own ecosystem, and you need to change that.
Just removing that and getting to the bare soil and
being able to enrich that space compost and preparation, any
kind of um. The idea is to go from that
ecosystem that grass the two a more excited environment for
(08:15):
the vegetables. Actually, should we cut the grass out, like
get a sod cutter and cut the grass off. I
use a flat shovel and I and I basically use
a like a sod cutter on a twelve foot patch.
It's not very big, so it's just enough to get
two inches just under the kind of shave that off
and even roll it right off like a sad would
come off, and that that way, you're not getting rid
(08:37):
of all the top soil. You want as much of
that top soil as possible, and you don't really want
to destroy the soil. So that's why just cutting it
off the top um, applying compost, apply compost, homemade compost
or bought if you can. I mean, the reality is
and a lot of preparation there is setting setting up
a home garden. You can do it as simply as
(08:57):
just opening up that ground. And you can if you're
making composts to apply that on there. We like, uh,
you know, manure composts, either cattle or horse manures type
leaf composts that to me are just the vegetables love
that rather than just leaf Now, how should you dig
the garden? How deep you should should you dig that
twelve foot square patch? Use a fork? Use of fork,
(09:23):
There's always depends on how deep the top soil is,
And of course you want as deep atop soil as
you can for a good vegetable garden. So fork helps
to break that up and allow the compost to fall in. Um.
We we avoid using like really heavy rotor tailor type cultivation,
but just enough so it's open and just make that
top bed for the seeds. Know that the seeds need
(09:44):
that really special top surface to be putting in. And uh, Elliott,
do you have a different methode. Well, I'm gonna agree
with Jack. It's just that after I take my flat
spade and the go two inches on or the surface
of that sod, I'm just going to turn it over.
(10:05):
And by turning it over, I am going to prevent
it from re growing. But the most fertile part of
your lawn is the top two inches. And in the
old days, when people wanted a good fertile type soil
to mix into a greenhouse or to make a potting mix,
(10:27):
they would use what they called loam, And loam was
made or created by taking the top two or three
inches off a fertile pasture, turning it upside down and
letting it rot for a couple of years. Well, you
don't need to do that, because if you turn the
two inches, they're upside down, and then add to it
(10:47):
the compost that Jack is recommending, you can almost grow
in it directly and as far as deep. People today
find all sorts of ways to loosen the underneath. But
I remember a British gardener I ran in two years ago.
He just took his spading fork, pushed it in and
(11:08):
pulled back on the handle, and that just lifted and
loosened the soil underneath. Did allow a way for a
lot of the composts to fall down in there. And
you know we were talking about the tools and tool
design and stuff like that. Well, most of the tools
I design is because when I'm working on something, I
(11:31):
think I'm congenitally lazy, and the whole time I'm doing it,
I'm trying to figure out there must be an easier
way to do this. And so when I saw this
old British gardener say no, you just pushed the fork
in and pull back slightly on the handle. I thought, dang,
that's genius, and that will keep old people like me
gardening well into their dotage because it isn't that hard
(11:54):
to do. That's that And what about year after year?
What what do you do to keep your garden soil beautiful?
Once you once you started this twelve by twelve foot patch,
what do you do next year? Well, you want to
cover it over winter. Studies of shelling that if you
have plants growing there, you're going to get better growth
(12:16):
next year. But you want to make sure you can
get rid of those plants easily next spring. And you
could do the same. You could skim that top two
inches off and turn it over. And especially if you
had some clover that you sad in uh September at
the end of the gardening season, that would be a
(12:37):
great deal because it would have extracted some nitrogen from
the air to put there. And if you don't have
things growing there, just spreads some hey on it, and
that organic matter just sitting on top will keep the
soil organisms happy and the soil organisms. This is the
(12:58):
wonderful thing about what's going on out there. These are
the guys who run the show. When I first started,
the fact that impressed me more than anything else, was
reading one of the early soil microbiologists who explained that
there are a million live organisms in a teaspoon of
(13:20):
fertile soil. That number is considered far too low today, yeah,
because we can we can count better. But there is
this whole biological world. And now as we're paying attention
not just to the soil but to the human microbiome,
we're finding out that there is a great companionship between
(13:45):
the soil microbiome and the human microbiome and keeping people
alive and healthy. So you just want to protect all
those wonderful free workers that you have. And the nice
thing about it, their favorite food is organic matter. So
that's why when you're buying probiotics, they say you're taking antibiotics,
(14:05):
and they tell you the doctor tells you to take probiotics.
You're taking in three hundred thousand units of probiotics of
something or other. Microwns right, very very high. Elliot was saying,
the ground just needs to be always covered as best
to can it, and in fact that's covered with plant
material growing plants, you mean, or even just the decomposing plants.
(14:28):
So instead of the hey going to the compost step
is just gonna lie on your garden for the winter,
and and you're gonna scoop off what didn't decompose in
the spring throat on your compost seep, and the gardener
is ready to go. So both of you became gardeners
(14:52):
at a very young age. Jack seventeen years older. Eighteen
years old, you had an eye opening ex curious tell
us about that. Well, I was working in um. You know,
we had a family farm in Rhode Island, and I
was working at some greenhouses UM. And you know, I
loved to work in these spaces, the big old redwood
(15:14):
glass houses. Uh. Well, you know, old farm families that
were there, and I was loving and learning more. I
had grown up with organic production on our own farm,
and once I got into do more work in these greenhouses,
that was my first exposure to chemicals UM. And what
was a real surprise to me was that a lot
(15:34):
of the stories that that my mentors there, my teachers
that were there, were telling me was that, well that
there the ideas of organic are the old days, and
actually the management going forward is going to require something
really different because the consumer it wants something different. And
I thought that that was a really surprising thing to
hear them say like they were following a trend that
(15:55):
was being set by people who really didn't know what
the consequence was. And I thought, you know, will be
good be to really direct this this idea here towards
growing food and doing it naturally. And you know, fortunately,
I would say a lot of that eye opening was
that there were not a lot of people talking about
how to grow, especially in greenhouses organically, which is a
(16:18):
very rare thing. UM that it was really Elliott's new
organic grower and learning about what he had done in methodology,
and I thought, this was this is something that I
can apply and it was so intuitive. I was able
to really apply it multiple places through the years and
and honestly it's been it's just evolved and grown and
(16:42):
really valuable. And so you call yourself an agrow ecologist.
What does that mean exactly? Well, it's a big word
for farmer UM. What it really means is, you know,
in the systems that we work in UM, they're not
just about food production. You know, these these systems are
about stewarding land and caring for our communities. There's a
(17:06):
cology associated to it. So part of this is about
not just food. Is that the food is this product
of a very healthy, interactive work and kind of ecosystem
that takes a lot of people besides just the grower.
Now does does your kind of farming include animal farming?
So do you need you need the animal waste from
(17:28):
cows and horses and chickens to enrich your soil? Is
it important? It is very important. It's very important to
have animal manures in an annual space. So the idea
is that everything is moving right. In fact, the more
that I've been able to do this and test and try,
because again a lot of this stuff takes confidence to
try a new method, to try something different. But we're
(17:50):
always in that place sort of always curious of trying
something different. And there were some old methods that had
been you know, in Europe and UK for for a
long time where they were doing these lay herbal Le
type rotations where it was pastures to vegetables to grains
and you know a mix of all these systems. It
seems very idealistic in some ways compared to what we
(18:13):
have in place, but we had the opportunity to start
doing it. And what I realized is that and maybe
this even in your own backyard. Um, the garden in
the same place all the time isn't really necessary. In fact,
if you have the animals and you have the grains,
that everything is doing a kind of service. So by
essence that the animals need to be involved just for
(18:35):
the sake of the manures, move them around. Yeah, and
even if the garden is in the same place that
there's good composting, so to say. Start Stone Barns, which
was this beautiful rolling hill of cattle pastures. The first
thing we did was build the compost system, build a greenhouse,
and everything kind of expanded from that place. And I've
(18:58):
been watching this development ever since it started. Um, David
Rockefeller giving the giving the property over. It's just Stone
Barns to build this amazing, amazing facility. And uh, Elliott,
what was your job there? I know that you had
an involvement early on with the Stone Barns. Yeah, well,
they weren't looking at what they could really do. I
(19:19):
think their vision of greenhouses and stuff was limited because
at the start they had a twenty by thirty ft
greenhouse planned and they were gonna have a huge restaurant
there and everything. So I suggested the half acre greenhouse
that Jack has now And if you want to see
(19:40):
how well organic greenhouse growing can happen, it's just need
to go there and visit Jack's greenhouse. I keep wanting
to go to all the universities that still have professors
that say organic is impossible and take them by the
scruff the neck and drag them over there and show
them screen house, because it's absolutely magnificent and it it
(20:05):
shows that the the wisdom of the past, which wasn't
quite as constrained as a thinking was back in nineteen
when I started in this game. Uh. I have a
(20:25):
book on my shelf that's absolutely delightful. The title is
Roman Farming and it was written by an old Latin professor,
and you go through this thing. Oh yeah, green manures,
oh yeah, cover crops, crop rotations, growing legumes, making composts.
(20:46):
It's all there. It's all been known since the dawn
of agriculture. And you know you have to say, oh, yeah,
it must have been. How did people feed themselves for
all those years? Because there are naturals something like that
that work. Strangely enough, regardless, these principles are so simple,
they're they're just nature principles. That can be applied to
(21:10):
our relationship in the landscape just productively. But the greenhouse systems,
for some reason or another, which is completely avoided bringing
that kind of methodology into the space, into the into
covered spaces. Yeah, because the covered space seems to want
to just be like sanitized, and and that's couldn't be
farther from the truth. Is biologically rich and healthy because
(21:32):
of it. Yeah. Now, Martha, the greenhouse that I recommended
to the Barns, which is the one that I I built,
is called an open top greenhouse, and it has all
sorts of little roofs across it and they open to
the point that they opened completely, so if you wanted
to let it rain in there, you can have all
(21:53):
of those things open completely and let it rain. And
what that gets you is much more natural conditions. And
we have done that here in a simpler way because
we have plastic greenhouses, but we've made them movable so
we can move them like a big sled off of
(22:13):
where they've been sitting for a year and and to
another spot. And that was an idea that started in
Europe about eighteen ninety because prior to them, in order
to keep their greenhouses functioning well. The greenhouse growers would
have a huge crew of employees taking out eighteen inches
(22:37):
of soil which bovels at wheelbarrows and putting it another
field outside, and they were renewing the soil for an
awful lot of work. And one of them, obviously as
naturally lazy as I am, said, well, gee, why don't
we just moved the greenhouse. And so back in eighteen
ninety the first movable greenhouses, these were ass houses. They
(23:01):
sat on railroad wheels on railroad rails, and you could
actually move a hundred by forty ft glass greenhouse that way.
But they quickly found out that this was the most
in the easiest way to sort of re naturalize an
area that you have de naturalized by putting a cover
(23:24):
over it. So the the greenhouse that Jack has does
that by having a top that opens completely so the
real sun and and the real rain and everything, and
treat it as if we were outside. I did something.
I did something along those lines. I don't have a
greenhouse that moves, but my vegetable greenhouse was an in
(23:44):
ground greenhouse, sort of modeled on your instructions, Elliott. So
I put in the foundation of the of the greenhouse
was was filled with really really good soil, all my
composted best soil, eight ft deep. And then we started
to plant in that, and then uh so years what
(24:05):
years went by? And then I decided, well, I was
getting a lot of weeds and things, and I decided, well,
I'm going to now do raised beds. And I got
I made raised beds you saw them, um, and filled
them with a new, brand new, organic, beautifully made composts,
and we have had such amazing vegetables now again because
(24:29):
of this rejuvenation. So I'm thinking now maybe in three years,
I'm just gonna build a second maybe six inches higher
on top of those boxes and feel more stuff in there.
Does that sound like a good idea? That there are
a lot of old studies that have found that the
deeper your top soil, the better plants grow. So deep
and the top soil you're doing exact And guess what
(24:51):
I grew this year? A seventeen pound Swiss chart. I
have a picture of it. I waited it was seventeen
pounds with with the one little you know root, but
the root wasn't so big compared to the plants itself.
Seventeen pounds and it was absolutely edible. A white a
white Ford hooks was charred. Oh, I'm quite sure it
(25:14):
was a little just because it got extra large, didn't
mean it was going to be tough or anything. Yeah,
it was delicious. So I think that. I mean, I'm
so I'm so pleased with myself. You know, when something
like that happens to a gardener, you just get so happy.
And my carrots are so nice and long and straight.
I think it's because of the new raised beds. You know,
(25:35):
they're not meeting anything any little little hard soil under there.
They're just just growing right in that beautiful compost. So
we were I'm having fun with my in the ground
in the box uh covered covered garden. One of the
things that we've been doing for years in there is
(25:56):
that when you keep adding compost, maybe just to to
offer this too, that minimal amounts of composts each time
is really valuable because what you're doing is just feeding
the soil. Right. I think this is this idea that
you need to add more for the sake of the plants.
Like you did, you added a whole bunch more to
start it fresh. In our system, we are actually continually
(26:17):
adding slightly less all the time, because because there's so
much release, if you put a lot on sometimes you'll
end up a level. I was told that don't plant
your lettuces right away in the new composts, plant hardier plants.
I planted that switch chart which is not which is
a hardy vegetable that grew so well, and the lettuces.
(26:38):
Let other things grow first and then start your more
tender vegetables, and that worked. To that point, mellow compost,
like old aged compost, is really good to apply in
those ways. First of all, just because you are just
feeding the soil. You're not you don't try to like
we feed the plants heavily with it. But to your point,
diversity and rotation in these spaces is really important because
(27:01):
when we grow the same plant over and over again,
it just draws the same thing. So changing that and
the other thing that we've been doing in this space.
Elliot's this idea. Part of it is that protecting from
the extreme of nature rather than just trying to grow
hot winter, because allowing it to get cold in the winter,
um and some of our houses completely frozen and others
(27:23):
just at that cold temperature, everything flourishes in that way,
and it's really low energy, which is the other thing
greenhouses can be very nowadays, and greenhouses are going to
continue to be more and more valuable, especially these types
of on soil type extension houses, because the reality is
(27:44):
climate change with stronger storm cells and that sort of thing.
These houses are are actually giving us alternate options instead
of just total exposure. So we're going to get into
a little bit of territory now that I've been studying
lot of and that that's the c e A, the
controlled environment agriculture. Uh, these gigantic greenhouses that are appearing
(28:08):
all over Europe, in the Middle East, Dubai has acres
and acres and acres underglass. Russia has thousands of acres underglass,
growing everything all winter long. Um, some of its hydroponics,
some of it's in the ground. What do you think
about this? Are they using too many chemicals or how
do you compare that to the kind of in ground
(28:31):
growing that you're talking about. Well, if you want to
see really good in ground growing, as I just mentioned,
what endo Jack's greenhouse that is an excellent soil that
start with, and they are adding just the right amount
of compost every year and they're also running a crop rotation,
so if you can't change the soil, changing the crop
(28:52):
and having a different stimulating effect on the soil micro organisms.
I have been Dutch greenhouses that it just blew my mind.
You're driving along the highway and for miles you can
see nothing but glass houses. That it was. It's become
(29:13):
such an incredible industry there, and the produce is wonderful.
The ones that especially that are growing in in real soil.
The ones that aren't growing in soil. I was never
as impressed by the flavor and quality of what came out,
(29:33):
but that would be that after almost sixty years of
being an organic farmer, I my test buds have been prejudiced, right,
But what do you think In America there are a
lot of young companies growing um growing in greenhouses hydroponically.
(29:53):
Do you think that they will succeed using nine less water,
many of them recycled rainwater waters. Border is a big
focus on on in these greenhouses because of because of
the shortages that California is experiencing now Mexico is experiencing.
What do you think about all of that? They less
(30:14):
water figure is always bandied about, but my water costs
me nothing. It falls out of the sky and uh,
and I don't have to put energy into moving what
water I do use around unless obviously it's a it's
a very dry year. But the energy input to grow
(30:39):
in those huge greenhouses, and especially where they want to
grow all winter when there isn't enough sunlight and they
have artificial lighting LEDs are using. Yeah, that makes me
a little Uh. There's a professor at Cornell Dixon to
(31:02):
Spooner who was one of the early people, uh pushing
the idea of uh these huge plant greenhouses, who I
believe wrote an article eventually said where he said he
never thought they could recover the energy that was used
in excess of what it would have been necessary to
(31:24):
grow the crops out of doors. So if we are
looking at using less energy, some of those systems are
probably not the direction to to go in. Many of
them are using solar panels. Many of them are you know,
trying to create their own energy. Right, even with solar panels,
(31:48):
it turned out it didn't work. So I've always been
interested in in simple, no energy systems. And so we
grow and harvest as late into the fall as we can.
A lot of root crops that we store for the water,
and we store them in a roots seller, and root
crops the happiest place for them to be is in
(32:12):
a dark, cool, moist uh area. And that's what you
get for free by digging a hole in the ground
and putting walls on a roof over it. And so
this is costing absolutely nothing, and it cools down by
(32:33):
we opened the vents and with the cool air in
in the fall. I mean that the idea to me
of where we should be looking in agriculture is for
systems that work with what the natural forces are giving
us and try and enhance what they do. And all
(32:53):
of our carrots and beets and cabbage and Ruda vegas
and all those we sell them every week, all water
from this uh hole in the ground that on its
own is maintaining ideal conditions, and that isn't we invented. Obviously.
Root sellers have been around forever, but it has always
(33:15):
appealed to me as a simple technology that we need
to uh investigate more thoroughly. Well just to say that
there is some pretty incredible technology that's being learned in
those kind of environments. My personal feeling here is that
we need to spend more time on the on the soil,
and we have, we have a lot more to learn
(33:37):
about what Elliots just saying that. The reality is it
needs to be complementary. If there's new technology that's coming on,
there's lots of ways for that to be actually supporting
the local farm and regional food and farming that's happening
in those spaces. I don't see it as a full
replacement for sure. And in fact, maybe the one thing
that I've heard is that looking at places like sealing
(34:00):
this valley where we're sending you know, tens of thousands
of pounds of let us across the country to us
here for a place to be able to do that
in a in an environment here, I can see the
short term value of food security and all these things
that they're talking about. But again, the huge amount of
energy I think is overlooked, how simple what Elliott's talking
(34:24):
about is, and how it's how easy really it is
with enough support for us to produce more like we've
been doing, and that is really important. Well, the food
(34:44):
production in America has encountered a lot of problems. We
are a nation of meat eaters. We are a nation
of people eating maybe a lot of the wrong food.
So many of us are searching for organics in the
grocery stores. Are the things that are labeled organic? Organic?
What should we suggest to everyone and what do you
(35:06):
think the consumer really should be offered in the grocery stores.
There's a wonderful old Italian saying, what you don't pay
for at the food market, you pay for it the doctor.
And I've always thought since that came from hundreds of
years ago, it is a concept that people have realized
(35:29):
that even if exceptional food does cost more, and we're
not talking about fancy wines or something, We're just talking
about food that has been carefully grown so it contains
everything that food is supposed to contain, which means that
the grower has been paying attention to creating an ideal soil.
(35:52):
And the trouble with what was put in as the
regulations for U. S d A Organic is that they
focused on what you shouldn't do. Okay, you shouldn't use
these chemical fertilizers, you shouldn't use these chemical pesticides. But
and I was told this by someone who understands how
(36:15):
you write rules in Washington, that that was the only
way they could do it because there was no way
that type of rules that lawyers write could be specific
enough on the positive things that the grower is supposed
to be doing to make the soil absolutely perfect to
make the most nutricious vegetables. And so that's what you're
(36:37):
small growers are focusing on. All these delightful young people
we meet a lot of them, some of them work
for us, who have gotten inspired by the idea that
food that should be grown to be as nutritious as possible,
and they're the ones turning out a wonderful food today,
and very often that isn't available in the supermarket, but
(37:00):
it's available at farmers markets and farm stands on farm. Well, Elliott,
what you said about your farmers being inspired, that's that's
the important thing here. So few people are being inspired
because they are not in contact, which is another thing
that that part of this whole thing comes from this
desire and sort of comp compelled senses to want to
(37:23):
eat that and too to know where it's coming from.
I mean, so few of us have the privilege of
actually being able to have access to gardens, and the
less farms there are and the less people are involved
in like good artisan food and good farming locally, the
less opportunity for all of us to get that connection.
So even if it's not like we should, you know,
(37:44):
don't feel bad if you can't buy all organic product,
but I know that you're you can visit places and
you can connect to food and farming in your local area,
because that's that's what will change the grocery store and
that's what will change are eating habits. It's it's very simple.
We don't connect enough to our food and there are
(38:05):
not enough people in our local towns and communities that
have have been empowered to celebrate that with us. And
when we're inspired as as I certainly wasn't as Elliott was,
as all of the farmers that have worked with us
over all these years, and the chefs and the florists
(38:26):
and the leather makers, and when they when they start
to catch on to what's going on, um, so does
the rest of the community. And an access becomes available
when it's getting shipped in and who knows where it
came from and we're just looking for that time, how
many weeks ago tomatoes picked. There's too many questions, too
(38:48):
many questions to actually have answers too, So the local
food system is transparent, it's traceable, and it's actually beautiful. Yes,
but again it's hard for people who are working in
an all has to find the farmer's market, um and
find time to go to the farmers market. Farmers markets
are once a week in most neighborhoods. That's not enough time.
(39:08):
It's hard for farmers to find those guys in the
office I went to. I was up in Maine this
weekend at my my house in Seal Harbor. I went
to the farmer's market in Bar Harbor. And I love
going to that market. I love seeing what is being
grown locally. I have so much fun on on a
first name basis with all the farmers and and it's
(39:29):
so nice to see the activity there. I think if
everybody could experience that and start shopping that way, as
you suggest, it might be very very good for for
our health first of all, of course, and also for
our environment. Uh. Teaching kids where things come from is
another way teaching agriculture and school would be a very
(39:51):
good initiative. You know we I I learned how to sew,
and I learned how to draw architecture. I knew how
I learned automotive techniques in school, but I didn't learn gardening.
But I didn't learn gardening. And now wouldn't it be
great if there were a gardening course in you know,
a required course in grammar school. Certainly whenever there's kids
(40:14):
were For many many years at Stone Barns we had
tens of thousands of kids from schools coming and uh,
you know, getting questions like who put this carrot in
the ground, you know, really not knowing, and how quickly
somebody who has really has no idea how natural it is,
because it is really it doesn't take You don't have
(40:35):
to buy all of your food from the farmer's market
tomorrow and totally change your life, although if you can.
But the reality is even just going and visiting helps
change the frame of mind, which is that's the shift
that needs to happen. Well. Alice Waters has been very
instrumental in teaching us how to grow things and enjoy
the organic um. Many people on the West Coast or
(40:57):
trying to do that. You have R. S. Elliott has
have spearheaded the whole movement here on the East Coast.
It's very important for us to pay attention main organic
farmers and Growers Association. That's a very fantastic group working
hard too. And what's what what groups around here jack
in and around uh New York City. Well, there's there
(41:21):
are lots of community gardens across New York City that
are doing incredible things. Some of the some of our
friends in the South Bronx and Brooklyn are doing huge
amounts of work and big gardens down there. Um, down
even in Battery Park. It's a beautiful garden we worked
with down there. And so there are places there there's growing.
I see. There are other organizations uh no FA in
(41:46):
all the states in the Northeast, with the exception of MAFKA,
UM you know that have great resource lists of where
the farms are and where that's happening. If you're you know,
Connecticut Grown and all these groups, you know there is
a strong community of farmers, small farmers in local community
and local artisans that are out there. Um. But again,
(42:10):
one farmers market a week doesn't satisfy that, and it
doesn't we were all kind of contributing to either that
happening or not happening. Right. How were you introduced to
farming and organic farming originally? Elliott? What made you go
in this amazing direction that you've really devoted your life. Ship. Well,
two of the same people who at one point or
(42:30):
another inspired you, Uh, Scott and Helen Nearing wrote a
book and Living the Good Life Hippies looking for the
Best Wife. Right, we were that, right, Yeah. I was
fascinated by that book and and I came and met
them and we became friends. And a couple of years later,
(42:52):
when I decided I was going to do this for real. Uh,
we stopped by and they sold us. Uh. The land
were on for what they paid for twenty years before,
because they took pity on a young couple who had
enough didn't have enough money to really buy land. And
it made it that much more of an adventure because
(43:15):
it was all covered with spruce and fir forest. So
we had to cut down a lot of trees and
roll out a lot of rocks. But and this is
an important story, what we started with was that very
sandy soil covered with trees and rocks with a pH
four point three. And we've been able to turn that
(43:36):
surely by adding organic matter into the unbelievably productive farm
we have at the moment. So my attitude about the
world running out of food is No, it isn't. You
just have to realize that Mother Nature's systems are incredibly
productive and you just have to plug into them. And
(43:57):
organic matter and compost or two of the the most
important inputs. Well, I'm very glad that you're so optimistic.
I hope that you're right. I hope that we can
return more more to nature and and uh and get
more incredibly nutritious food growing all over the world. I mean,
it is so important for us. And yes, I love
(44:20):
that book, Living the Good Life. I even wrote a
sequel to it, called Living the Good Long Life. I
don't know if I ever sent you a copy of that, Elliott,
But you're you're doing a good job of living the
good long life. Uh. What good food helps, and loving
the work you're doing helps. Since that's what you're doing
all day, every day, it's important that you enjoy it.
(44:43):
And so your daughter is running the farm now, she
has a taken over management. She's doing a wonderful job
of it. Uh. And she had her own farm and
in Colorado for a number of years before she moved
back east. And and then she worked as a consultant
with people like Wigmans and remal greenhouses and is keeping
(45:07):
the farm incredibly productive? That is such such good news. Well,
we have so many really serious problems facing us as
a nation, as a world. We have climate change which
is very evident. But what are your words of advice
to all of us, Jack, What what can we do
like right now to start helping solve these problems. Well,
(45:34):
just to first, the thing to know is that everybody
is a contributor to this planet. I mean, we are all.
We all have an opportunity to do something, and you
should really take that to heart because it's not just
the producers. It's not just chefs making food for you.
Your choice matters every single day, and you can help
direct that from a farm perspective. It's also probably valuable
(45:57):
to remember that farms are not just producing food. They're
the farmers. The people that are on that land are
caring for that land. And if you want to do
something for the planet, let's care for the land. Let's
care for the planet. And so are kind of stewardship work.
Like I said, it's it's part just for the ecology
(46:18):
of things, it's part just for making sure that people
have access. But we have to change the attitude from
factory farming to more responsible farming right well, factory farming
has has wrote on the coattails of non renewable resources
and all kinds of input driven systems and all sorts
of things that had not been calculated, and we hadn't
(46:40):
calculated the damage done to both the ecosystems themselves in
the planet, but also our societies. So we're not including
everyone right now, and we're not actually protecting the place
that is going to provide for us in the future.
So that's why farmers are so valuable, and that's why
you need them in your community, and you need artisans
(47:00):
and all of the other stacks of people that help.
And so when you support your local baker, that's that's
choosing the right philosophy around how they bake. Or you're
going to your farmer's market, or you're buying pickles from
this person, you're buying root vegetables, or you're actually showing
up at the farmer's market in the rain. Any of
(47:21):
those on horseback. I on horseback, I mean, you know, well,
I take sacks along with me and hang them on
the saddle. I guess we can't be too I mean,
even if it's impossible. Even if the change that we're
asking for is impossible, we should be driven to try
to make it better and encourage one's children to plant
and to grow uh, and go one's grandchildren. My granddaughter
(47:45):
Jude has basil plants on her little terrorists in New
York City. She's picking her lettuce. She had four climbing
bean plants. She was so proud. They germinated and grew
really fast. I showed her how to put strings and
tie them around the railing so that the beans would
grow up. Uh, And she's so proud of herself. And
(48:07):
I think we have to teach our all children the
the validity of growing one's own food and teach them
how to grow. It's just important. There is no garden
too small. First of all, like just growing a basil
plant in your window is enough to have a feeling.
But the other thing is that a farmlike Elliott's or
(48:28):
a farmlike ours, where the footprints small comparatively to what
you're talking about for a massive scale, but we're feeding
a lot of people. And if there are more and
more spreading, if that spreads and people are asking for
that in our communities and recognizing why it's so good
for the soil, Why it's so good for the carbon,
why it's so good for water and bio diversity, um
(48:51):
and protected places. People will have more access to that
kind of land and that kind of food, and health
gets health. That's the idea. And Elliot, what's your what's
your secret for living the good long life? Enjoying what
you do? My favorite story was when I learned we
(49:11):
we grow the best tasting carrots anybody ever eight by
planting them just after the middle of August and then
sliding a greenhouse over them and leaving him in the
ground and harvesting him November through February. And these are
sold in our local markets as candy carrots. And by
(49:34):
staying in the cold ground over winter, this is an
unheeded greenhouse, they just get sweeter and sweeter. And my
wife was delivering at the local food co op early
one morning a load of our vegetables, including carrots, and
the produce manager, when he saw her pull up, came
out and said, Oh, I'm so glad you're here early.
(49:55):
There's a man waiting in the parking lot and we're
out of your carrots. I hope you brought ut them.
His daughter refuses to go to school without one of
your carrots in her lunch box. And I found out
that our carrots had become the trading item of choice
in local grade school lunch boxes. Now we became very
(50:18):
popular with the parents because we had little Johnny a
little Mary eating vegetables. But it was just a case
of focusing on growing the most flavorful, tender version of
whatever we were after. And to develop case budzs like
that early on in your children is such a such
a gift and uh and and to be able to
(50:40):
satisfy them is such a such a treasure. Really, Yeah,
it's not a chore, right, it's not a chore. That's
part of this is that to show how much you
have to love what you grow and love what you eat,
enjoy it, and and that if we future looks like that,
we're in good shape. Well. I hope all of you
listening have gotten some words of wisdom from these two
(51:01):
great gardeners. I hope that you, if you haven't already,
start a garden, grow delicious, delicious things for you and
your family and experience the great joy of gardening. I
have found that I have become more and more of
a gardener and less and less of anything else since. Uh,
(51:23):
with the gardening, I just that's all I want to
do is garden. I want to grow, grow, grow, and
it's uh. And and give away. I love giving everything
I grow away. It's so it's so pleasurable. So thank
you so much Elliot for taking the time out of
your busy farming day. And Jack, I know you have
to get back to those huge greenhouses and uh and
(51:44):
cut some lettuces for dinner at the Stone Barns restaurant
for tonight. Right. That's it's still still a lot of
light we do eight o'clock is still it's still light
out at eight o'clock. It's still light at eight o'clock. Yeah.
But if anyone who's listening to this podcast us, please
come visit us at Stone Barns and keep your ear
out for our upcoming podcast and and uh and you
(52:07):
will love what you learn at either the beautiful farm
of Elliott Coleman up in Harborside, Maine, or at the
Stone Barns complex right in Pocantico, New York. Fantastic. Thank
you so much, Thank you, Martha. Thanks Martha,
My attitude about the world. The running out of food
is no, it isn't. You just have to realize that
Mother nature systems are incredibly productive and you just have
to plug into them. Hi. Everyone, I'm Martha Stewart. Today.
I'm so happy to have two fantastic men on the program.
(00:24):
These men are gardeners. They are perhaps two of the
finest gardeners in America. Jack Algier and Elliott Coleman are
joining me. They are two of the best known advocates
of sustainable organic farming in the United States. Both men
have inspired and influenced the way I grow food here
(00:45):
at my own farm. Elliott is joining me from Harborside, Maine,
where he is a farmer and author, an agricultural researcher,
and a proponent of organic farming. He is famous for
developing a unique year round method of cultivating organic vegetables
even during the winter time in Maine. Jack Algier is
(01:08):
the director of agro Ecology at Stone Barns Center, where
he works to train the next generation of young farmers.
Something that we can all agree is vital. Jack is
here with me in person, and we just returned from
a tour of my gardens and greenhouses. Where do you think,
Jack spectacular am I doing? Okay? You blew my mind.
(01:33):
I've been here before and it is a gorgeous landscaping forest.
So glad to see it. Thank you. Well. We're both
experienced and passionate gardeners and farmers, and now, more than
ever before, people are getting into their own backyards to garden.
The pandemic certainly encouraged packyard gardening in a way that
(01:55):
nothing has ever before. I don't even think Victory Garden
was as prolific as this kind of COVID gardening has become. Yeah,
I think that's true. I think that's true. Everyone was
stuck at home. I suppose that was the big difference.
But what I wanted to get from both you today
and from Elliott, and I think we could ask Elliott
(02:16):
to join us now, if you don't mind Elliott's in Harborside, Maine.
You have been such an inspiration to me, Elliott and
you know that, and we we worked together on so
many wonderful articles and stories. I'm just the simple farmer
out here in the woods. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah,
you have written at least four fantastic books for season harvest.
(02:39):
I have one right here, and this is Organic Vegetables
from your Home Garden all year long and the New
Organic Grower, another fantastic book that we rely on for
really good information. You have done a tremendous service to
so many home gardeners and your tools. We are you
(03:00):
still are you both collaborating on tools for Johnny's. We
have been working quite a bit on different tools over
the years, for sure. Yeah. Well those tools are in
my headhouse in the greenhouse, and they are used by
Ryan and Brian at the farm here and all the
other guys. They fight over the tools because they are effective,
(03:21):
they are sensible, and it's really great to have those tools,
and and um you can get if if you're the listeners.
Please note that Johnny's Seeds has a whole section of
their catalog devoted to wonderful tools, many of which were
designed by Elliott at first and then by both of you.
(03:42):
Now right, I'm solely an advocate, but I've certainly uh
had our hand in our work to to work on
slow tools and designing small tools for for a good farm.
So you call them slow tools, these are non mechanical
tools pretty much, right, Yeah, for the hand for the handcraft, Yes,
and since my favorite way to garden is by hand.
(04:03):
Even though I've been learning how to use all the machinery,
I can drive tractors now, Elliott, yep, I can I
can hey the fields Elliott bail the hey. But but
I do. I do like getting out there even without
gloves onto my manicurist Dismay, and I can pick weeds
(04:24):
for hours, and I get such a satisfaction out of
doing that. What is it about farming that the next
generation has to understand? What is it that's going on
now that has to be either fixed or implemented, or
repaired or just taught. So, Jack, what is the first
(04:47):
thing we have to teach? Well, I think the first
thing that teaches that no one needs to do this alone.
That's never what it was like. You know. The reality
is there's so much to learn from a community of
people around you, whether whether starting a garden or a farm. Um.
You know, there's so much of this spirit of do
it yourself. Um. But it's the community that that enriches
(05:09):
the whole thing, and there's so much to learn from
each other. In many ways, gardening is this, and farming
for that matter, is a little bit of a spectator sport.
You know, people people watch and they pay attention and
often learn more from the failures and the things that
don't go right as we navigate that. And so I
think people, uh, it's good to see what other people
(05:30):
do and try those things and know that there's uh,
there's never a truly perfect but there's also never a
total failure, and there's so much to learn in that space.
Without that, you can't have the longevity to really practice
and be good at it, and you have to stay
with it. Yeah, and what what do what do you say, Elliott?
One of the most interesting things about farming and its
(05:54):
connection to the world we live in is organic farming
has shown that if you understand how the natural system
works and work along with it, you're gonna have food.
That there's nothing complicated about it, that the mother nature
wants us to be well fed. And the systems are
(06:17):
so basic and straightforward to people who understand that the
natural world is the most magnificent system ever set up,
and we just need to figure out how to plug
into it. There's a line in a wonderful old book
from Liberty Hyde Bailey, who was a classic horticulturalist at
(06:40):
the cornell and other places. And he's suggesting how you
can learn about things and how to do this and
was it very simple line He just said, go out
in the backyard, look down and ask yourself, oh, why
is that weed growing right there? He said, By the
(07:02):
time you've answered that question, you've had a whole education
in botany, horticulture and everything else. And so if you're
a gardener and you want to grow a corner a
plant or a tomato plant, you need to figure out
how to create conditions that are as amenable for that
plant as the conditions that the weed your feet naturally
(07:27):
chose because they were perfect. That's good advice, very much.
If we want to just start a garden in our backyard, Okay,
we have a twelve by twelve foot piece of ground
that is sunny, we can fence it and we can
grow a few vegetables and some herbs. What's our first step, Jack, Well,
(07:52):
the first thing, of course, you have to the grass
is its own ecosystem, and you need to change that.
Just removing that and getting to the bare soil and
being able to enrich that space compost and preparation, any
kind of um. The idea is to go from that
ecosystem that grass the two a more excited environment for
(08:15):
the vegetables. Actually, should we cut the grass out, like
get a sod cutter and cut the grass off. I
use a flat shovel and I and I basically use
a like a sod cutter on a twelve foot patch.
It's not very big, so it's just enough to get
two inches just under the kind of shave that off
and even roll it right off like a sad would
come off, and that that way, you're not getting rid
(08:37):
of all the top soil. You want as much of
that top soil as possible, and you don't really want
to destroy the soil. So that's why just cutting it
off the top um, applying compost, apply compost, homemade compost
or bought if you can. I mean, the reality is
and a lot of preparation there is setting setting up
a home garden. You can do it as simply as
(08:57):
just opening up that ground. And you can if you're
making composts to apply that on there. We like, uh,
you know, manure composts, either cattle or horse manures type
leaf composts that to me are just the vegetables love
that rather than just leaf Now, how should you dig
the garden? How deep you should should you dig that
twelve foot square patch? Use a fork? Use of fork,
(09:23):
There's always depends on how deep the top soil is,
And of course you want as deep atop soil as
you can for a good vegetable garden. So fork helps
to break that up and allow the compost to fall in. Um.
We we avoid using like really heavy rotor tailor type cultivation,
but just enough so it's open and just make that
top bed for the seeds. Know that the seeds need
(09:44):
that really special top surface to be putting in. And uh, Elliott,
do you have a different methode. Well, I'm gonna agree
with Jack. It's just that after I take my flat
spade and the go two inches on or the surface
of that sod, I'm just going to turn it over.
(10:05):
And by turning it over, I am going to prevent
it from re growing. But the most fertile part of
your lawn is the top two inches. And in the
old days, when people wanted a good fertile type soil
to mix into a greenhouse or to make a potting mix,
(10:27):
they would use what they called loam, And loam was
made or created by taking the top two or three
inches off a fertile pasture, turning it upside down and
letting it rot for a couple of years. Well, you
don't need to do that, because if you turn the
two inches, they're upside down, and then add to it
(10:47):
the compost that Jack is recommending, you can almost grow
in it directly and as far as deep. People today
find all sorts of ways to loosen the underneath. But
I remember a British gardener I ran in two years ago.
He just took his spading fork, pushed it in and
(11:08):
pulled back on the handle, and that just lifted and
loosened the soil underneath. Did allow a way for a
lot of the composts to fall down in there. And
you know we were talking about the tools and tool
design and stuff like that. Well, most of the tools
I design is because when I'm working on something, I
(11:31):
think I'm congenitally lazy, and the whole time I'm doing it,
I'm trying to figure out there must be an easier
way to do this. And so when I saw this
old British gardener say no, you just pushed the fork
in and pull back slightly on the handle. I thought, dang,
that's genius, and that will keep old people like me
gardening well into their dotage because it isn't that hard
(11:54):
to do. That's that And what about year after year?
What what do you do to keep your garden soil beautiful?
Once you once you started this twelve by twelve foot patch,
what do you do next year? Well, you want to
cover it over winter. Studies of shelling that if you
have plants growing there, you're going to get better growth
(12:16):
next year. But you want to make sure you can
get rid of those plants easily next spring. And you
could do the same. You could skim that top two
inches off and turn it over. And especially if you
had some clover that you sad in uh September at
the end of the gardening season, that would be a
(12:37):
great deal because it would have extracted some nitrogen from
the air to put there. And if you don't have
things growing there, just spreads some hey on it, and
that organic matter just sitting on top will keep the
soil organisms happy and the soil organisms. This is the
(12:58):
wonderful thing about what's going on out there. These are
the guys who run the show. When I first started,
the fact that impressed me more than anything else, was
reading one of the early soil microbiologists who explained that
there are a million live organisms in a teaspoon of
(13:20):
fertile soil. That number is considered far too low today, yeah,
because we can we can count better. But there is
this whole biological world. And now as we're paying attention
not just to the soil but to the human microbiome,
we're finding out that there is a great companionship between
(13:45):
the soil microbiome and the human microbiome and keeping people
alive and healthy. So you just want to protect all
those wonderful free workers that you have. And the nice
thing about it, their favorite food is organic matter. So
that's why when you're buying probiotics, they say you're taking antibiotics,
(14:05):
and they tell you the doctor tells you to take probiotics.
You're taking in three hundred thousand units of probiotics of
something or other. Microwns right, very very high. Elliot was saying,
the ground just needs to be always covered as best
to can it, and in fact that's covered with plant
material growing plants, you mean, or even just the decomposing plants.
(14:28):
So instead of the hey going to the compost step
is just gonna lie on your garden for the winter,
and and you're gonna scoop off what didn't decompose in
the spring throat on your compost seep, and the gardener
is ready to go. So both of you became gardeners
(14:52):
at a very young age. Jack seventeen years older. Eighteen
years old, you had an eye opening ex curious tell
us about that. Well, I was working in um. You know,
we had a family farm in Rhode Island, and I
was working at some greenhouses UM. And you know, I
loved to work in these spaces, the big old redwood
(15:14):
glass houses. Uh. Well, you know, old farm families that
were there, and I was loving and learning more. I
had grown up with organic production on our own farm,
and once I got into do more work in these greenhouses,
that was my first exposure to chemicals UM. And what
was a real surprise to me was that a lot
(15:34):
of the stories that that my mentors there, my teachers
that were there, were telling me was that, well that
there the ideas of organic are the old days, and
actually the management going forward is going to require something
really different because the consumer it wants something different. And
I thought that that was a really surprising thing to
hear them say like they were following a trend that
(15:55):
was being set by people who really didn't know what
the consequence was. And I thought, you know, will be
good be to really direct this this idea here towards
growing food and doing it naturally. And you know, fortunately,
I would say a lot of that eye opening was
that there were not a lot of people talking about
how to grow, especially in greenhouses organically, which is a
(16:18):
very rare thing. UM that it was really Elliott's new
organic grower and learning about what he had done in methodology,
and I thought, this was this is something that I
can apply and it was so intuitive. I was able
to really apply it multiple places through the years and
and honestly it's been it's just evolved and grown and
(16:42):
really valuable. And so you call yourself an agrow ecologist.
What does that mean exactly? Well, it's a big word
for farmer UM. What it really means is, you know,
in the systems that we work in UM, they're not
just about food production. You know, these these systems are
about stewarding land and caring for our communities. There's a
(17:06):
cology associated to it. So part of this is about
not just food. Is that the food is this product
of a very healthy, interactive work and kind of ecosystem
that takes a lot of people besides just the grower.
Now does does your kind of farming include animal farming?
So do you need you need the animal waste from
(17:28):
cows and horses and chickens to enrich your soil? Is
it important? It is very important. It's very important to
have animal manures in an annual space. So the idea
is that everything is moving right. In fact, the more
that I've been able to do this and test and try,
because again a lot of this stuff takes confidence to
try a new method, to try something different. But we're
(17:50):
always in that place sort of always curious of trying
something different. And there were some old methods that had
been you know, in Europe and UK for for a
long time where they were doing these lay herbal Le
type rotations where it was pastures to vegetables to grains
and you know a mix of all these systems. It
seems very idealistic in some ways compared to what we
(18:13):
have in place, but we had the opportunity to start
doing it. And what I realized is that and maybe
this even in your own backyard. Um, the garden in
the same place all the time isn't really necessary. In fact,
if you have the animals and you have the grains,
that everything is doing a kind of service. So by
essence that the animals need to be involved just for
(18:35):
the sake of the manures, move them around. Yeah, and
even if the garden is in the same place that
there's good composting, so to say. Start Stone Barns, which
was this beautiful rolling hill of cattle pastures. The first
thing we did was build the compost system, build a greenhouse,
and everything kind of expanded from that place. And I've
(18:58):
been watching this development ever since it started. Um, David
Rockefeller giving the giving the property over. It's just Stone
Barns to build this amazing, amazing facility. And uh, Elliott,
what was your job there? I know that you had
an involvement early on with the Stone Barns. Yeah, well,
they weren't looking at what they could really do. I
(19:19):
think their vision of greenhouses and stuff was limited because
at the start they had a twenty by thirty ft
greenhouse planned and they were gonna have a huge restaurant
there and everything. So I suggested the half acre greenhouse
that Jack has now And if you want to see
(19:40):
how well organic greenhouse growing can happen, it's just need
to go there and visit Jack's greenhouse. I keep wanting
to go to all the universities that still have professors
that say organic is impossible and take them by the
scruff the neck and drag them over there and show
them screen house, because it's absolutely magnificent and it it
(20:05):
shows that the the wisdom of the past, which wasn't
quite as constrained as a thinking was back in nineteen
when I started in this game. Uh. I have a
(20:25):
book on my shelf that's absolutely delightful. The title is
Roman Farming and it was written by an old Latin professor,
and you go through this thing. Oh yeah, green manures,
oh yeah, cover crops, crop rotations, growing legumes, making composts.
(20:46):
It's all there. It's all been known since the dawn
of agriculture. And you know you have to say, oh, yeah,
it must have been. How did people feed themselves for
all those years? Because there are naturals something like that
that work. Strangely enough, regardless, these principles are so simple,
they're they're just nature principles. That can be applied to
(21:10):
our relationship in the landscape just productively. But the greenhouse systems,
for some reason or another, which is completely avoided bringing
that kind of methodology into the space, into the into
covered spaces. Yeah, because the covered space seems to want
to just be like sanitized, and and that's couldn't be
farther from the truth. Is biologically rich and healthy because
(21:32):
of it. Yeah. Now, Martha, the greenhouse that I recommended
to the Barns, which is the one that I I built,
is called an open top greenhouse, and it has all
sorts of little roofs across it and they open to
the point that they opened completely, so if you wanted
to let it rain in there, you can have all
(21:53):
of those things open completely and let it rain. And
what that gets you is much more natural conditions. And
we have done that here in a simpler way because
we have plastic greenhouses, but we've made them movable so
we can move them like a big sled off of
(22:13):
where they've been sitting for a year and and to
another spot. And that was an idea that started in
Europe about eighteen ninety because prior to them, in order
to keep their greenhouses functioning well. The greenhouse growers would
have a huge crew of employees taking out eighteen inches
(22:37):
of soil which bovels at wheelbarrows and putting it another
field outside, and they were renewing the soil for an
awful lot of work. And one of them, obviously as
naturally lazy as I am, said, well, gee, why don't
we just moved the greenhouse. And so back in eighteen
ninety the first movable greenhouses, these were ass houses. They
(23:01):
sat on railroad wheels on railroad rails, and you could
actually move a hundred by forty ft glass greenhouse that way.
But they quickly found out that this was the most
in the easiest way to sort of re naturalize an
area that you have de naturalized by putting a cover
(23:24):
over it. So the the greenhouse that Jack has does
that by having a top that opens completely so the
real sun and and the real rain and everything, and
treat it as if we were outside. I did something.
I did something along those lines. I don't have a
greenhouse that moves, but my vegetable greenhouse was an in
(23:44):
ground greenhouse, sort of modeled on your instructions, Elliott. So
I put in the foundation of the of the greenhouse
was was filled with really really good soil, all my
composted best soil, eight ft deep. And then we started
to plant in that, and then uh so years what
(24:05):
years went by? And then I decided, well, I was
getting a lot of weeds and things, and I decided, well,
I'm going to now do raised beds. And I got
I made raised beds you saw them, um, and filled
them with a new, brand new, organic, beautifully made composts,
and we have had such amazing vegetables now again because
(24:29):
of this rejuvenation. So I'm thinking now maybe in three years,
I'm just gonna build a second maybe six inches higher
on top of those boxes and feel more stuff in there.
Does that sound like a good idea? That there are
a lot of old studies that have found that the
deeper your top soil, the better plants grow. So deep
and the top soil you're doing exact And guess what
(24:51):
I grew this year? A seventeen pound Swiss chart. I
have a picture of it. I waited it was seventeen
pounds with with the one little you know root, but
the root wasn't so big compared to the plants itself.
Seventeen pounds and it was absolutely edible. A white a
white Ford hooks was charred. Oh, I'm quite sure it
(25:14):
was a little just because it got extra large, didn't
mean it was going to be tough or anything. Yeah,
it was delicious. So I think that. I mean, I'm
so I'm so pleased with myself. You know, when something
like that happens to a gardener, you just get so happy.
And my carrots are so nice and long and straight.
I think it's because of the new raised beds. You know,
(25:35):
they're not meeting anything any little little hard soil under there.
They're just just growing right in that beautiful compost. So
we were I'm having fun with my in the ground
in the box uh covered covered garden. One of the
things that we've been doing for years in there is
(25:56):
that when you keep adding compost, maybe just to to
offer this too, that minimal amounts of composts each time
is really valuable because what you're doing is just feeding
the soil. Right. I think this is this idea that
you need to add more for the sake of the plants.
Like you did, you added a whole bunch more to
start it fresh. In our system, we are actually continually
(26:17):
adding slightly less all the time, because because there's so
much release, if you put a lot on sometimes you'll
end up a level. I was told that don't plant
your lettuces right away in the new composts, plant hardier plants.
I planted that switch chart which is not which is
a hardy vegetable that grew so well, and the lettuces.
(26:38):
Let other things grow first and then start your more
tender vegetables, and that worked. To that point, mellow compost,
like old aged compost, is really good to apply in
those ways. First of all, just because you are just
feeding the soil. You're not you don't try to like
we feed the plants heavily with it. But to your point,
diversity and rotation in these spaces is really important because
(27:01):
when we grow the same plant over and over again,
it just draws the same thing. So changing that and
the other thing that we've been doing in this space.
Elliot's this idea. Part of it is that protecting from
the extreme of nature rather than just trying to grow
hot winter, because allowing it to get cold in the winter,
um and some of our houses completely frozen and others
(27:23):
just at that cold temperature, everything flourishes in that way,
and it's really low energy, which is the other thing
greenhouses can be very nowadays, and greenhouses are going to
continue to be more and more valuable, especially these types
of on soil type extension houses, because the reality is
(27:44):
climate change with stronger storm cells and that sort of thing.
These houses are are actually giving us alternate options instead
of just total exposure. So we're going to get into
a little bit of territory now that I've been studying
lot of and that that's the c e A, the
controlled environment agriculture. Uh, these gigantic greenhouses that are appearing
(28:08):
all over Europe, in the Middle East, Dubai has acres
and acres and acres underglass. Russia has thousands of acres underglass,
growing everything all winter long. Um, some of its hydroponics,
some of it's in the ground. What do you think
about this? Are they using too many chemicals or how
do you compare that to the kind of in ground
(28:31):
growing that you're talking about. Well, if you want to
see really good in ground growing, as I just mentioned,
what endo Jack's greenhouse that is an excellent soil that
start with, and they are adding just the right amount
of compost every year and they're also running a crop rotation,
so if you can't change the soil, changing the crop
(28:52):
and having a different stimulating effect on the soil micro organisms.
I have been Dutch greenhouses that it just blew my mind.
You're driving along the highway and for miles you can
see nothing but glass houses. That it was. It's become
(29:13):
such an incredible industry there, and the produce is wonderful.
The ones that especially that are growing in in real soil.
The ones that aren't growing in soil. I was never
as impressed by the flavor and quality of what came out,
(29:33):
but that would be that after almost sixty years of
being an organic farmer, I my test buds have been prejudiced, right,
But what do you think In America there are a
lot of young companies growing um growing in greenhouses hydroponically.
(29:53):
Do you think that they will succeed using nine less water,
many of them recycled rainwater waters. Border is a big
focus on on in these greenhouses because of because of
the shortages that California is experiencing now Mexico is experiencing.
What do you think about all of that? They less
(30:14):
water figure is always bandied about, but my water costs
me nothing. It falls out of the sky and uh,
and I don't have to put energy into moving what
water I do use around unless obviously it's a it's
a very dry year. But the energy input to grow
(30:39):
in those huge greenhouses, and especially where they want to
grow all winter when there isn't enough sunlight and they
have artificial lighting LEDs are using. Yeah, that makes me
a little Uh. There's a professor at Cornell Dixon to
(31:02):
Spooner who was one of the early people, uh pushing
the idea of uh these huge plant greenhouses, who I
believe wrote an article eventually said where he said he
never thought they could recover the energy that was used
in excess of what it would have been necessary to
(31:24):
grow the crops out of doors. So if we are
looking at using less energy, some of those systems are
probably not the direction to to go in. Many of
them are using solar panels. Many of them are you know,
trying to create their own energy. Right, even with solar panels,
(31:48):
it turned out it didn't work. So I've always been
interested in in simple, no energy systems. And so we
grow and harvest as late into the fall as we can.
A lot of root crops that we store for the water,
and we store them in a roots seller, and root
crops the happiest place for them to be is in
(32:12):
a dark, cool, moist uh area. And that's what you
get for free by digging a hole in the ground
and putting walls on a roof over it. And so
this is costing absolutely nothing, and it cools down by
(32:33):
we opened the vents and with the cool air in
in the fall. I mean that the idea to me
of where we should be looking in agriculture is for
systems that work with what the natural forces are giving
us and try and enhance what they do. And all
(32:53):
of our carrots and beets and cabbage and Ruda vegas
and all those we sell them every week, all water
from this uh hole in the ground that on its
own is maintaining ideal conditions, and that isn't we invented. Obviously.
Root sellers have been around forever, but it has always
(33:15):
appealed to me as a simple technology that we need
to uh investigate more thoroughly. Well just to say that
there is some pretty incredible technology that's being learned in
those kind of environments. My personal feeling here is that
we need to spend more time on the on the soil,
and we have, we have a lot more to learn
(33:37):
about what Elliots just saying that. The reality is it
needs to be complementary. If there's new technology that's coming on,
there's lots of ways for that to be actually supporting
the local farm and regional food and farming that's happening
in those spaces. I don't see it as a full
replacement for sure. And in fact, maybe the one thing
that I've heard is that looking at places like sealing
(34:00):
this valley where we're sending you know, tens of thousands
of pounds of let us across the country to us
here for a place to be able to do that
in a in an environment here, I can see the
short term value of food security and all these things
that they're talking about. But again, the huge amount of
energy I think is overlooked, how simple what Elliott's talking
(34:24):
about is, and how it's how easy really it is
with enough support for us to produce more like we've
been doing, and that is really important. Well, the food
(34:44):
production in America has encountered a lot of problems. We
are a nation of meat eaters. We are a nation
of people eating maybe a lot of the wrong food.
So many of us are searching for organics in the
grocery stores. Are the things that are labeled organic? Organic?
What should we suggest to everyone and what do you
(35:06):
think the consumer really should be offered in the grocery stores.
There's a wonderful old Italian saying, what you don't pay
for at the food market, you pay for it the doctor.
And I've always thought since that came from hundreds of
years ago, it is a concept that people have realized
(35:29):
that even if exceptional food does cost more, and we're
not talking about fancy wines or something, We're just talking
about food that has been carefully grown so it contains
everything that food is supposed to contain, which means that
the grower has been paying attention to creating an ideal soil.
(35:52):
And the trouble with what was put in as the
regulations for U. S d A Organic is that they
focused on what you shouldn't do. Okay, you shouldn't use
these chemical fertilizers, you shouldn't use these chemical pesticides. But
and I was told this by someone who understands how
(36:15):
you write rules in Washington, that that was the only
way they could do it because there was no way
that type of rules that lawyers write could be specific
enough on the positive things that the grower is supposed
to be doing to make the soil absolutely perfect to
make the most nutricious vegetables. And so that's what you're
(36:37):
small growers are focusing on. All these delightful young people
we meet a lot of them, some of them work
for us, who have gotten inspired by the idea that
food that should be grown to be as nutritious as possible,
and they're the ones turning out a wonderful food today,
and very often that isn't available in the supermarket, but
(37:00):
it's available at farmers markets and farm stands on farm. Well, Elliott,
what you said about your farmers being inspired, that's that's
the important thing here. So few people are being inspired
because they are not in contact, which is another thing
that that part of this whole thing comes from this
desire and sort of comp compelled senses to want to
(37:23):
eat that and too to know where it's coming from.
I mean, so few of us have the privilege of
actually being able to have access to gardens, and the
less farms there are and the less people are involved
in like good artisan food and good farming locally, the
less opportunity for all of us to get that connection.
So even if it's not like we should, you know,
(37:44):
don't feel bad if you can't buy all organic product,
but I know that you're you can visit places and
you can connect to food and farming in your local area,
because that's that's what will change the grocery store and
that's what will change are eating habits. It's it's very simple.
We don't connect enough to our food and there are
(38:05):
not enough people in our local towns and communities that
have have been empowered to celebrate that with us. And
when we're inspired as as I certainly wasn't as Elliott was,
as all of the farmers that have worked with us
over all these years, and the chefs and the florists
(38:26):
and the leather makers, and when they when they start
to catch on to what's going on, um, so does
the rest of the community. And an access becomes available
when it's getting shipped in and who knows where it
came from and we're just looking for that time, how
many weeks ago tomatoes picked. There's too many questions, too
(38:48):
many questions to actually have answers too, So the local
food system is transparent, it's traceable, and it's actually beautiful. Yes,
but again it's hard for people who are working in
an all has to find the farmer's market, um and
find time to go to the farmers market. Farmers markets
are once a week in most neighborhoods. That's not enough time.
(39:08):
It's hard for farmers to find those guys in the
office I went to. I was up in Maine this
weekend at my my house in Seal Harbor. I went
to the farmer's market in Bar Harbor. And I love
going to that market. I love seeing what is being
grown locally. I have so much fun on on a
first name basis with all the farmers and and it's
(39:29):
so nice to see the activity there. I think if
everybody could experience that and start shopping that way, as
you suggest, it might be very very good for for
our health first of all, of course, and also for
our environment. Uh. Teaching kids where things come from is
another way teaching agriculture and school would be a very
(39:51):
good initiative. You know we I I learned how to sew,
and I learned how to draw architecture. I knew how
I learned automotive techniques in school, but I didn't learn gardening.
But I didn't learn gardening. And now wouldn't it be
great if there were a gardening course in you know,
a required course in grammar school. Certainly whenever there's kids
(40:14):
were For many many years at Stone Barns we had
tens of thousands of kids from schools coming and uh,
you know, getting questions like who put this carrot in
the ground, you know, really not knowing, and how quickly
somebody who has really has no idea how natural it is,
because it is really it doesn't take You don't have
(40:35):
to buy all of your food from the farmer's market
tomorrow and totally change your life, although if you can.
But the reality is even just going and visiting helps
change the frame of mind, which is that's the shift
that needs to happen. Well. Alice Waters has been very
instrumental in teaching us how to grow things and enjoy
the organic um. Many people on the West Coast or
(40:57):
trying to do that. You have R. S. Elliott has
have spearheaded the whole movement here on the East Coast.
It's very important for us to pay attention main organic
farmers and Growers Association. That's a very fantastic group working
hard too. And what's what what groups around here jack
in and around uh New York City. Well, there's there
(41:21):
are lots of community gardens across New York City that
are doing incredible things. Some of the some of our
friends in the South Bronx and Brooklyn are doing huge
amounts of work and big gardens down there. Um, down
even in Battery Park. It's a beautiful garden we worked
with down there. And so there are places there there's growing.
I see. There are other organizations uh no FA in
(41:46):
all the states in the Northeast, with the exception of MAFKA,
UM you know that have great resource lists of where
the farms are and where that's happening. If you're you know,
Connecticut Grown and all these groups, you know there is
a strong community of farmers, small farmers in local community
and local artisans that are out there. Um. But again,
(42:10):
one farmers market a week doesn't satisfy that, and it
doesn't we were all kind of contributing to either that
happening or not happening. Right. How were you introduced to
farming and organic farming originally? Elliott? What made you go
in this amazing direction that you've really devoted your life. Ship. Well,
two of the same people who at one point or
(42:30):
another inspired you, Uh, Scott and Helen Nearing wrote a
book and Living the Good Life Hippies looking for the
Best Wife. Right, we were that, right, Yeah. I was
fascinated by that book and and I came and met
them and we became friends. And a couple of years later,
(42:52):
when I decided I was going to do this for real. Uh,
we stopped by and they sold us. Uh. The land
were on for what they paid for twenty years before,
because they took pity on a young couple who had
enough didn't have enough money to really buy land. And
it made it that much more of an adventure because
(43:15):
it was all covered with spruce and fir forest. So
we had to cut down a lot of trees and
roll out a lot of rocks. But and this is
an important story, what we started with was that very
sandy soil covered with trees and rocks with a pH
four point three. And we've been able to turn that
(43:36):
surely by adding organic matter into the unbelievably productive farm
we have at the moment. So my attitude about the
world running out of food is No, it isn't. You
just have to realize that Mother Nature's systems are incredibly
productive and you just have to plug into them. And
(43:57):
organic matter and compost or two of the the most
important inputs. Well, I'm very glad that you're so optimistic.
I hope that you're right. I hope that we can
return more more to nature and and uh and get
more incredibly nutritious food growing all over the world. I mean,
it is so important for us. And yes, I love
(44:20):
that book, Living the Good Life. I even wrote a
sequel to it, called Living the Good Long Life. I
don't know if I ever sent you a copy of that, Elliott,
But you're you're doing a good job of living the
good long life. Uh. What good food helps, and loving
the work you're doing helps. Since that's what you're doing
all day, every day, it's important that you enjoy it.
(44:43):
And so your daughter is running the farm now, she
has a taken over management. She's doing a wonderful job
of it. Uh. And she had her own farm and
in Colorado for a number of years before she moved
back east. And and then she worked as a consultant
with people like Wigmans and remal greenhouses and is keeping
(45:07):
the farm incredibly productive? That is such such good news. Well,
we have so many really serious problems facing us as
a nation, as a world. We have climate change which
is very evident. But what are your words of advice
to all of us, Jack, What what can we do
like right now to start helping solve these problems. Well,
(45:34):
just to first, the thing to know is that everybody
is a contributor to this planet. I mean, we are all.
We all have an opportunity to do something, and you
should really take that to heart because it's not just
the producers. It's not just chefs making food for you.
Your choice matters every single day, and you can help
direct that from a farm perspective. It's also probably valuable
(45:57):
to remember that farms are not just producing food. They're
the farmers. The people that are on that land are
caring for that land. And if you want to do
something for the planet, let's care for the land. Let's
care for the planet. And so are kind of stewardship work.
Like I said, it's it's part just for the ecology
(46:18):
of things, it's part just for making sure that people
have access. But we have to change the attitude from
factory farming to more responsible farming right well, factory farming
has has wrote on the coattails of non renewable resources
and all kinds of input driven systems and all sorts
of things that had not been calculated, and we hadn't
(46:40):
calculated the damage done to both the ecosystems themselves in
the planet, but also our societies. So we're not including
everyone right now, and we're not actually protecting the place
that is going to provide for us in the future.
So that's why farmers are so valuable, and that's why
you need them in your community, and you need artisans
(47:00):
and all of the other stacks of people that help.
And so when you support your local baker, that's that's
choosing the right philosophy around how they bake. Or you're
going to your farmer's market, or you're buying pickles from
this person, you're buying root vegetables, or you're actually showing
up at the farmer's market in the rain. Any of
(47:21):
those on horseback. I on horseback, I mean, you know, well,
I take sacks along with me and hang them on
the saddle. I guess we can't be too I mean,
even if it's impossible. Even if the change that we're
asking for is impossible, we should be driven to try
to make it better and encourage one's children to plant
and to grow uh, and go one's grandchildren. My granddaughter
(47:45):
Jude has basil plants on her little terrorists in New
York City. She's picking her lettuce. She had four climbing
bean plants. She was so proud. They germinated and grew
really fast. I showed her how to put strings and
tie them around the railing so that the beans would
grow up. Uh, And she's so proud of herself. And
(48:07):
I think we have to teach our all children the
the validity of growing one's own food and teach them
how to grow. It's just important. There is no garden
too small. First of all, like just growing a basil
plant in your window is enough to have a feeling.
But the other thing is that a farmlike Elliott's or
(48:28):
a farmlike ours, where the footprints small comparatively to what
you're talking about for a massive scale, but we're feeding
a lot of people. And if there are more and
more spreading, if that spreads and people are asking for
that in our communities and recognizing why it's so good
for the soil, Why it's so good for the carbon,
why it's so good for water and bio diversity, um
(48:51):
and protected places. People will have more access to that
kind of land and that kind of food, and health
gets health. That's the idea. And Elliot, what's your what's
your secret for living the good long life? Enjoying what
you do? My favorite story was when I learned we
(49:11):
we grow the best tasting carrots anybody ever eight by
planting them just after the middle of August and then
sliding a greenhouse over them and leaving him in the
ground and harvesting him November through February. And these are
sold in our local markets as candy carrots. And by
(49:34):
staying in the cold ground over winter, this is an
unheeded greenhouse, they just get sweeter and sweeter. And my
wife was delivering at the local food co op early
one morning a load of our vegetables, including carrots, and
the produce manager, when he saw her pull up, came
out and said, Oh, I'm so glad you're here early.
(49:55):
There's a man waiting in the parking lot and we're
out of your carrots. I hope you brought ut them.
His daughter refuses to go to school without one of
your carrots in her lunch box. And I found out
that our carrots had become the trading item of choice
in local grade school lunch boxes. Now we became very
(50:18):
popular with the parents because we had little Johnny a
little Mary eating vegetables. But it was just a case
of focusing on growing the most flavorful, tender version of
whatever we were after. And to develop case budzs like
that early on in your children is such a such
a gift and uh and and to be able to
(50:40):
satisfy them is such a such a treasure. Really, Yeah,
it's not a chore, right, it's not a chore. That's
part of this is that to show how much you
have to love what you grow and love what you eat,
enjoy it, and and that if we future looks like that,
we're in good shape. Well. I hope all of you
listening have gotten some words of wisdom from these two
(51:01):
great gardeners. I hope that you, if you haven't already,
start a garden, grow delicious, delicious things for you and
your family and experience the great joy of gardening. I
have found that I have become more and more of
a gardener and less and less of anything else since. Uh,
(51:23):
with the gardening, I just that's all I want to
do is garden. I want to grow, grow, grow, and
it's uh. And and give away. I love giving everything
I grow away. It's so it's so pleasurable. So thank
you so much Elliot for taking the time out of
your busy farming day. And Jack, I know you have
to get back to those huge greenhouses and uh and
(51:44):
cut some lettuces for dinner at the Stone Barns restaurant
for tonight. Right. That's it's still still a lot of
light we do eight o'clock is still it's still light
out at eight o'clock. It's still light at eight o'clock. Yeah.
But if anyone who's listening to this podcast us, please
come visit us at Stone Barns and keep your ear
out for our upcoming podcast and and uh and you
(52:07):
will love what you learn at either the beautiful farm
of Elliott Coleman up in Harborside, Maine, or at the
Stone Barns complex right in Pocantico, New York. Fantastic. Thank
you so much, Thank you, Martha. Thanks Martha,
Host
Martha Stewart
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