April 19, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: is marijuana legalization working? We're joined by Penn State pharmacologist Kent Vrana and Marijuanamarica author Ryan Nerz. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #marijuana #cannabis #decriminalization #recriminalization
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen Toothemiddle dot com.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I'm joined
(00:21):
as always by our house DJ Tolliver. Tolliver. You know,
as we go to air live, it is almost for twenty.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know what, Jeremy as a musician with dreadlocks, this
is like a national holiday for me well, and also like.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
We are so on the news here at the Middle
by doing that. So we're going to be talking this
hour about cannabis legalization and how well it is working.
It has only been about twelve years since Colorado and
Washington State legalized it for recreational use. Now twenty four
states have done the same, and more could legalize it
this year. But because things have moved so fast, there
(00:55):
hasn't been a lot of time to see how things
are working where it is legal. So that's our question
this hour, or how is it going? You can weigh
in at eight four four four Middle, that is eight
four four four six four three three five three. We'll
get to your calls in just a moment, but first,
last week we asked you if you were able to
save money for the future, and we've got a lot
of really great calls from all over the country, a
(01:16):
lot of thirty year olds. Take a listen to some
of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
My name is drum Murray. I live in Aiken, South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Hi, my name is Anastasia. I'm calling from Hasteins, Michigan.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Hi. My name is Joe and I'm calling from Wheaton, Illinois.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Hey, Jeremy, my.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
Name is Marty and I'm calling from Jacksonville.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
We'll love to say, but as millennial in this current economy,
I don't even know what that means in English.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
I was raised to be a saver.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
I took on any job I could get, and I
was always able to save at least fifteen percent of
whatever I made.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Am I saving from my future? No where I grew up,
we started hearing early, don't be prepared to retire compared
to work until you die. Fortunately have a groth ira
for both my wife and myself, as well as at
tension that I have from teaching and a for one
cave that I'm contributing to, and of course there's always
(02:14):
the hopes of social security. So that's how I've been saving.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Thanks again to everyone who called or wrote in. You
can see some of the emails in our weekly newsletter,
which you can sign up for at listen to the
miiddle dot com. So now to this week's topic, cannabis legalization.
How well is it working? It is now legal for
medical use in thirty eight states and for recreational use
in twenty four. There are some medical benefits and people
(02:39):
like it. Full disclosure, Tolliver, I enjoy the occasional edible No,
it's true, but there are also serious questions about regulation,
how potent the available strands have become addiction and use
among younger people whose brains are not fully developed. So
this hour, our question for you is marijuana legalization working? Tolliver?
What is the no to call in?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's eight four four four Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
email us at listen to themiddle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So let's meet our panel. Kent Vana is chair of
pharmacology and director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center. At
Penn State University, Kent.
Speaker 8 (03:14):
Welcome to the Middle, Thanks Jeremy for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And Ryan nurs joins us as well. He has covered
cannabis legalization as a journalist since its early days and
wrote Marijuana America, which is a memoir about that experience. Ryan,
Welcome to the Middle, Thanks Jeremy. Good to be here.
And before we get to the phones, you're both living
in states that may legalize recreational marijuana this year. Florida
for you, Ryan, Pennsylvania for you, Kent. Ryan, what is
(03:40):
the debate like in Florida where voters are going to
decide this November about recreational marijuana.
Speaker 9 (03:47):
The debate is getting pretty pretty interesting here it You know,
we've had medical marijuana for a while now. I am
a medical marijuana card holder, and we are right now
the biggest medical marijuana tax by tax revenue state. And
so this recreational ballot has been sort of on the
(04:07):
docket for a while. It's been knocked down by Republicans
for a long time. The Supreme Court just allowed it
to be, you know, in the ballot, but you have
to get sixty percent, which is a very very high barrier.
They were originally polling around seventy percent, but recently they've
said that it's fifty six percent, and so now it's
going to be up to the lobbyists. There's a lot
(04:28):
of money here. There's a company called True Leave that's
put in forty million dollars into this to get a
million ballot signatures, and so there's going to be just
a huge debate and a lot of money put at
getting people over that sixty.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Pers And the people who are against it in Florida,
what are they saying, what is there, if there, what's
their number one reason why they don't think that recreational
marijuana should be allowed there?
Speaker 9 (04:51):
Well, you know, shockingly enough, one of the biggest voices
is mister DeSantis, who is you know, he's saying that
it's you know, it's radical, that it's going to reduce
quality of life. And I think those are probably your
you know, your loudest voices in the room are these
sort of you know, family oriented, very conservative voices. As
(05:12):
you know, people have heard, there's a lot of you know,
Sarasota is a place where they're trying to be the
architects of like a new conservative reality in the United States,
and make America Florida for better or worse.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Ken What about in Pennsylvania, where it's the legislature that
may decide to legalize recreational marijuana. You have testified two
lawmakers you have serious concerns about it.
Speaker 8 (05:35):
What are they well? In particular, I'm just concerned about
legalizing another abused substance. I make it very clear. I
believe that my drug of choice, a good single barrel bourbon,
is far worse than cannabis. But that's not an excuse
to create another impairing, legal impairing drug. And most of
(05:55):
my concerns revolve around the next generation, because the strength
of the stuff that's coming onto the market now, and
then the use by adolescence is a big concern of mine.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
What about you mentioned alcohol there? How does it compare
cannabis to alcohol when it comes to the addictive qualities
of it? Have you found in your research?
Speaker 8 (06:17):
They're both addictive, Jeremy, But it's clear that alcohol's far worse.
It's far worse for medical outcomes, it's far worse on
your body and for society, for families. But that argument
doesn't hold sway if you realize that cannabis is itself
not without dangers, it's just that it's on a different level.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Ryan. When legalization was pitched, there was a vision painted
that people and communities who were harmed by cannabis criminalization
would have opportunities to benefit from legalization. How has that
played out as far as you know.
Speaker 9 (06:53):
You know, I think there's been a lot of a
lot of states where that's been quite a disappointment. New
York State is an example, right where that was their
pitch was that, you know, we're going to take it
off the black market, there's going to be a lot
of you know, a lot less incarceration for you know,
black and brown and sort of underprivileged communities, and that's
not really the way it's played out in the sense that,
(07:14):
you know, the barrier to entry is really high. I mean,
just to apply for a permit in Florida is one
hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and then you have to
vertically integrate just to even be in the game, and
that means you have to do cultivation, everything, all the
different things, you know, have your own dispensaries. And there's
only twenty five players in the market in Florida.
Speaker 10 (07:35):
So the fact is is that it's.
Speaker 9 (07:37):
Probably not really going to get rid of the black market.
It will reduce incarceration, but there's still going to be
these big corporate players like True Leave that are really
going to dictate the market.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Let's go to the phones and Eli, who's in Michigan. Eli,
Welcome to the middle. Do you think or how do
you think marijuana legalization is working?
Speaker 11 (07:56):
I think it's doing great. Where I'm from in Wayne County, Michigan,
down river, it's doing great. We just actually recently, uh,
less than ten miles from my house, we have about
five new di sponsories. They're having their grand openings right now.
And I think it's great to take it off the
black market because less interaction with more illegal drugs and like,
(08:16):
like a lot of the guys are saying adolescents, it's bad,
but I'm thinking the only thing that's bad about it
for the adolescens now is that they're still having to
proquire it off the black market and they're gonna be uh,
you know, get into uh with these guys and people
willing to sell to them, who are willing to sell
other drugs as well. But as far as taking off
the black market, it's great, and it's also great for
(08:36):
recreational marijuana because I went to jail for it when
I was a young man, and I think it's great
that a lot of these young guys are no longer
going to be in jail for it.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You went to jail for it when you were younger,
What what happened? Did have you have you had that
wiped off your record or what happened?
Speaker 11 (08:52):
No, it still hasn't been off my record. I just
it was just brought up. It was a possession of
marijuana and the judge still uses it like it was
a drug charge. And no, it hasn't been wiped off
my record. I ended up having to serve thirty days
in jail for it in Wayne County Jail, and it
wasn't a fun time. And I can tell you, at
least my story, that it led down to a darker
(09:13):
road of you know, the people you deal with and
the criminology that it leads you to. Just sending a
young man to jail, Yeah, it led me down to
a darker road.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Eli, thanks so much for calling in, and kent Rona
actually brings up another question that I had, which is
has it done anything in terms of a darker road?
Has it done anything. The legalization of marijuana in terms
of getting people to not use things like opioids. Has
it changed the use of other drugs?
Speaker 8 (09:43):
I don't think those data are very very clear cut.
And the big problem is that if you look at
any jurisdiction, any state, you're going to see a different
set of laws and a different set of regulations. So
it's very hard to understand if it's really going to
have that effect. I would hope so, but I don't
think the data very clear there. What worries me a
little bit, just to play off what Eli said a
(10:05):
moment ago, is the fact that what we don't understand
is that when when we legalize recreational it sends the
subtle message to youngsters adolescents in particular, that it is okay.
And the fact of the matter is, while it will
not be as immediately destructive as alcohol, it still has
its problems. One of the most significant, perhaps is the
(10:28):
increased association with schizophrenia later in life. So it's not
nearly as destructive as alcohol. But as I said at
the outset, is that a reason to add another potentially
dangerous compound to our youth.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Ryan, what do you think about that.
Speaker 9 (10:45):
You know, I think it's pretty complicated. You know, when
I wrote my you know, my book at the kind
of beginning of legalization. You know, I'm a user. I've
enjoyed it. I'm a very productive person. I play sports
and stop using cannabis. But I recognize that, you know,
when kids have developing brains, it's not you know, it's
not great for that. I've heard of this association, like
(11:05):
Kent said, with with you know, schizophrenia and people who
already have delicate psychees. I think it's pretty pretty delicate.
And we're here in Florida is a state that has
not limited the concentration you can use, so you can,
you know, I can go to my medical marijuana dispensary
and get ninety five percent THHC. And you know there's
people doing that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
They don't realize.
Speaker 9 (11:26):
You go to a liquor store, you know the difference
between beer and vodka and like ever clear or like
almost like a moonshine, and sometimes you're getting like moonshine.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You know, we're going to get to the potency in
a moment with Tolliver. And one thing that I've noticed
is you can hear the speed of change in attitudes
about marijuana by listening back to our presidents over the
last forty years or so.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, listen here to Ronald Reagan and then Bill Clinton
talking about marijuana.
Speaker 12 (11:51):
Leading medical researchers are coming to the conclusion that marijuana, pot, grass,
whatever you want to call it, is probably the most
dangerous drug in the United States. And we haven't begun
to find out all of the ill effects, but they
are permanent ill effects. When I was in England, I
experimented with marijuana a time or two and I didn't
(12:13):
like it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
And he didn't Inhale and never try it again.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Let the record show he did not Inhale. Okay, he did.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I neither never will.
Speaker 13 (12:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
By the way, you can give us a five star
rating on any where you listen to podcasts, and also
you can make a donation to the Middle at listen
to Themiddle dot com and we'll be right back with
more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning. In the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
(12:47):
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you how well is cannabis legalization working? Tolliver.
How can people reach us?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And before we go back to the phones, I want
to talk about potency. Levels of THCHC, which is the
psychoactive substance in cannabis, have been stead steadily increasing over
the decades. In nineteen eighty, the marijuana that was available
had less than two percent THCHC. Today there are plant
strains with more than thirty percent, and cannabis concentrates can
be more than ninety percent THCHC. So in Washington State,
(13:27):
where recreational marijuana has been legal since twenty twelve, there
are calls to regulate THCHC potency and State Senator Jesse Solomon,
who's a Democrat, supported legalization, but he now thinks things
have gotten a little out of control. I spoke to
him earlier and asked him why it was important to
try and pass a law about potency.
Speaker 14 (13:46):
Well, when we passed the legalization of marijuana. It was
essentially a flower that you'd smoke the bud. We didn't
have all these derivative products that were created a lab.
But now what we're seeing is they isolate the THHC.
They make products that are many, many, many times more potent,
almost one hundred percent THHC, and that is driving some
(14:09):
mental health issues among youth. So, for example, we're seeing
an increase in early onset schizophrenia, psychosis, hyperkinesis syndrome where
people have vomiting, and that's concerning I'm not an anti
I'm marijuana person. I'm frustrated by the industry and what
they've done.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And right now in Washington State, there's no regulation on
the potency of marijuana. Nope. How hard has it been
for you to get a bill through the legislature there?
Speaker 14 (14:38):
It's been hard. This is the first time this last
year that we got anything through and it was significant,
but it was also watered down. There's no cap on
TFC content.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And is it being watered down because of pressure from
the cannabis industry or because of your fellow lawmakers or what.
Speaker 14 (14:54):
First especially from the cannabis industry, and then they get
to the lawmakers so yes to both. You know, they
behave this year like the tobacco industry behaves or used
to behave, which was really frustrating because I remember when
I was interested in seeing the legalization of marijuana, all
the advocates were like, this is not going to be
the same thing. It's like, hey, man, have a heart.
(15:15):
Let people have some of this weed for this medical
issue or you know, whatever they want it for. But
now they're essentially like any other special interest group. They're organized,
they have money that contribute a lot of money to candidates.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
As we have said, your state, Washington State, was one
of the first states, one of the two first states
along with Colorado, to legalize recreational marijuana a little over
ten years ago. What advice would you have right now
for policymakers in other states, including states that are considering
legalizing recreational marijuana right now.
Speaker 14 (15:50):
I really think you need to look at the data
and the science that's been coming out in the studies
and how that's affecting young people, and then you should
probably cap potency. You should probably prevent products from being
attractive to kids, including very young kids, so like gummies
look like gummy bears and just envisioned out what could
possibly go wrong and plan for that, because once that
(16:12):
ship has sailed, as you can see from my tale
of the special interest lobbying, it's very hard to change course.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
That was Washington State Senator Jesse Solomon. Let me bring
back our guests, Ryan NER's, journalist and author of Marijuana America,
and Kent Varana, director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center
at Penn State University. Ryan, why is the potency so
much higher? I have seen videos from the nineteen seventies
and people who were stone looked like they were doing
just fine.
Speaker 9 (16:40):
Yeah, it's a valid point. I mean that's because the
percentage of thad was really low. I mean sometimes that
that you know, what we now call ditchweed was like
eight percent, you know, seven percent, ten percent, And now
you know, it's just a matter of farming and cultivation.
I mean, they just keep they keep cultivating this flower
to you know, only they only you know, pro create
(17:03):
cannabis buds with the best and the best and the best,
and it just gets higher and higher and higher, and
you can see it in the stores. I mean it's
and then you and then you create concentrations from that.
So you take a thirty percent level THCHC bud and
you concentrate it into a sticky little like hash oil,
and it can get up, as you said to above
ninety percent.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And kent rona. When you have THC potency at that level,
is it a problem for people that aren't just teenagers
or younger people, but anyone who is using that.
Speaker 8 (17:33):
That's a significant problem, especially for the non experienced person.
So when you get those kinds of concentrations, you can
precipitate psychotic events. They're very rare. I'm not trying to
demonize marijuana or THHC dominant cannabis, but what's happened in
this selective breeding that Ryan was talking about is that
the we're about maxing out the plants at thirty thirty
(17:55):
five percent THCHC, but in the process, the amount of
cannabi dieol ORSBD. Everyone knows CBD or that opposes the
effects of THC. It levens it if you will, And
so we're basically getting these purified extracts unopposed THHC activity.
It's causing increase in psychoses. Those are now coming out
(18:18):
in the literature, and this hyper emesis syndrome that the
senator was talking about this uncontrolled vomiting. One of my
mdphd students has seen three cases in pediatrics in the
last week, and that used to be a thing very written.
So it is a problem.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
A lot of calls coming in. Let's go to Javon,
who's in Tampa, Florida. Javon, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (18:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I think there needs to be a mature in the
way we understand marijuana use. About one hundred just over
one hundred years ago, liquor consumption anytimiday while on the job,
before driving, these things were relatively common, which in some
ways led to prohibition and radical changes in the way
we thought of socially, politically, and legally about the consumption
(19:06):
of alcohol. And I think that's where we are with
marijuana now. As the guests have been speaking about, the
concentrations of THHC have escalated. People are experiencing dangerous side effects.
So we just need to kind of grow up in
what we think of as safe recreational or even medicinal use.
If this is going to be something that we allow
in our communities, I don't know if it's working. I
(19:29):
just think we need to be more thoughtful about what
does it mean to enjoy marijuana versus you know, the
we're kind of in a wild wild West period right now.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Are you going to be voting for legalization recreationally in
Florida this November?
Speaker 15 (19:45):
Yes? I will.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I think there are the criminal charges that people are
facing for recreational use, the harm that that does to
our communities are tremendous. I think overall, legalization is a
are path than criminalization. So you know, I people are
gonna smoke pot. You know, keeping it illegal is just
(20:08):
going to continue to feed into a criminal justice system
that disenfranchises black and brown and poor people.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Javan Thanks for that call. Ryan. What about what Javon
said there about sort of a cultural shift in the
way we think about consuming marijuana. Do you think that
any has really happened over the last ten years since
it really started to be legal in many places?
Speaker 12 (20:32):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (20:32):
Yeah, I think there's been a massive cultural shift. I mean,
you know the I think part of the positive side
of that was there used to be this cliche of
the like couch locked stoner with you know, Cheetoh's dust
on his chest doing nothing, and now we realize, you know,
there's plenty of musicians and you know, I have friends
who are investment bankers, lawyers who are absolutely productive and
(20:54):
use cannabis in a totally fruitful way. On the other
side of that, you know, now there's gonna be like
he said, maybe they're needs to be another shift, which is,
you know, maybe we don't want to introduce it to
kids as like you know, gummy bears. We don't want
kids doing it too early, and maybe we don't want
our towns like wreeking of weed. Like you know, a
lot of backlash has been in New York City.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Let's go to Sohail, who's in Houston, Texas. Sohil, I
hope I'm saying your name correctly, but go ahead. Welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 13 (21:26):
So.
Speaker 7 (21:26):
I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, and I
also see adults as well. I moved from Illinois in
twenty twenty when marijuana was legalized there. In Texas, so
far it is not.
Speaker 15 (21:41):
So.
Speaker 7 (21:41):
As a psychiatrist, I am seeing a huge number of children,
adolescent and young adults coming in with psychosis, catatonia, alta
mental status. They're requiring afty doses of medication to bring
them back. Some of them, are are returning, some of
them are taking long time. I have presented on this
(22:04):
topic at National Child Psychiatric Conference and met so many
colleagues all across the country who are experiencing the same
kind of issues with young adolescents coming in and requiring
a great amount of attention that is not seen five
years ago when I was an Illinois and Missouri, which
(22:27):
is a huge number.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So what do you suggest, What would your message be
right now to politicians and policymakers and even voters who
are deciding whether to legalize recreational marijuana. Is there something
that should be done in order to make sure that
you're not seeing so many young people come in to
see you with with issues because of marijuana use.
Speaker 7 (22:49):
One message would be cleared to have a medical expert.
So for example, in Illinois, there was non medical expert available.
Are you know being in and giving their opinion expert
opinion as to what it is? What are the potential
side of facts? I mean, marijuana is a gateway drug.
When I worked at the rehab there were so many
(23:09):
people who started with marijuana ended up and met in
their thirties. So from medical experts, I think their potential
experience should be taken into consideration when the policy is
being made, and gummies and candies should be monitored. You know,
I can walk into gas station here in Houston next
door and I can find any gummy and there's no
(23:31):
age limitation and it has a tesc Are Synthetic products
all right, So hel.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Thank you very much for that. And Ken Ronald, let
me go to you on that. What do you make
of that? It's a lot of what you've been talking
about as well.
Speaker 8 (23:45):
Well. I think it's it's part of the problem is
the unregulated materials. I think the country would benefit tremendously
by having a unified idea of what's going on. As
Ryan was saying earlier that you only have to go
back fifty years and we had the three martini lunch
and it was accepted at that time, and we have
evolved to the point with alcohol that that's not the case.
(24:07):
What so Hail talks about that is important is, especially
with edibles, it permits the discrete use in a public
setting with a drug that does not show the outward
signs that alcohol does. And so what that permits is
students youngsters to use and in such a way that
(24:27):
we can't immediately identify their use, and so they get
to a point where they're using these very high concentration
products and then this acute persistent psychoses that he's describing
that may require antipsychotic drugs to treat. Again, it's a
rare syndrome, but it is a real syndrome.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah. Ryan. It reminds me of when I was going
through school and we had the DARE program and they
basically said, you know, marijuana is a gateway drug. It's
going to lead you to do other things. And there's
been a lot of pushback about that the years. But
what do you think about that we do? Yeah, the
government has started to pull back on allowing like menthol
flavored cigarettes and things because teenagers get into them and
(25:10):
then they get addicted. What about I mean, is it
time to get rid of gummies?
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Man?
Speaker 9 (25:16):
I you know, I think it's I think it's really challenging.
I think there's something about the packaging that I agree with.
I mean, so for you know, here we have medical marijuana.
You're packaging is very clinical. It looks like it almost
looks like a prescription drug.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And to me, that's that's good enough.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
I don't think it needs to be these colorful looking,
like cute little gummy bears, and you know, so that's
one thing. You know, I think the as far as
the gateway drug thing goes, I think that's a really
slippery thing because you know, there's a lot of what
the gateway drug was that you got weed from legal
illegal markets, and the same people that you got that
illegal weed from we're selling other things, and so this
(25:54):
is shifting a little bit away from that. I do
think it can be a little bit of a gateway drug,
but some of that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Was because on the black market. Taliver. Some notes are
coming in online.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Absolutely, p in Chicago rights legalization of marijuana is bad news.
It still goes against the Surgeon General report that any
type of smoking causes lung cancer and laryngeal cancer, a
line with bad breath, smelly clothes, yellow teeth, addiction, and
early death.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Absolutely, Let's go to another call in Bow who is
in River Ridge, Louisiana. Bo Welcome to the middle Go.
Speaker 16 (26:24):
Ahead, Hey guys. Yeah, you guys are talking a lot
about Florida's recent legislation and ballot initiative, and I just
want to point out that that just further furthers the
fiefdom of the medical licenses currently existing. And it's one
example of a larger problem in the marijuana industry of
(26:45):
license consolidation with these large multi state operators. And I'm
the former director of cultivation for one of them, and
in fact, you know, built his career for ten years
in Denver, Colorado, and got the opportunity to come back
to Louisiana and unfortunately might have to leave again because
there's only two licenses to work for here, and so
(27:07):
we need to be careful in terms of who's lobbying
for the legislation that's going on the ballot. You know,
these Florida voters are just going to see do you
want over twenty one adults to be able to use marijuana?
And most of them are going to vote yes. The
issue is they don't realize that it creates essentially a
(27:28):
closed market and not a free market. And to me,
it's un what's happening.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
That's a great point, b Thank you so much for
that call. Ryan. There's a big issue going on in
New York City right now because of the way that
the market has worked and the fact that you know,
they had certain number of licenses and they are all
these sort of off license sellers of marijuana, and it's
all screwed up.
Speaker 9 (27:53):
Yeah, I mean it's you know, if you go around
the streets of Manhattan these days, there's something like twenty
five hundred illegal you know, they're calling them like pot
bodegas and basically places that where bodegas that may have
been selling you know, selling weed sort of you know,
on the side, on the counter or something. Now because
the barrier to entry is so high, everyone's just given
(28:15):
up and sort of been like, we're just going to
sell weed anyway it's legal, and it's almost just too
much for it. They didn't really know who was going
to have to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Is it NYPD?
Speaker 9 (28:25):
Is it the bureau that they've created to control cannabis.
So they're really dealing with it in real time, and
there's been a big backlash against it.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
For such a big business with so much tax revenue,
it really is surprising that there wasn't more forethought about
how this is going to work.
Speaker 8 (28:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (28:41):
I think that's one thing that people don't realize is
that people think, you just, oh, you know, we just
you know, we created legal weed here in Illinois or Ohio,
wherever you are. They don't realize that the implementation of
that is a whole nother ballgame. To create that bureaucracy
and to create that system takes a long time, and
in Florida you could just see them working out the kinks.
(29:01):
And a big part of it is just corporations come in,
take over, put all their money and like your last
caller said, you know, they have their own lobbies and
it just becomes like the walmartization of Wheed Kent.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Are they talking about in Pennsylvania. It's not legal there yet,
and they're the legislature is considering it. Are they talking
about how the business would work? Or are the people
that's trying to push it through.
Speaker 8 (29:24):
Now they're beginning to consider it, and unlike other jurisdictions,
at least they're listening. I mean, they gave me the
opportunity to tell them the pros and the cons to
the idea, but I don't think they've thought far enough
down the road. There is this incredible pressure to reduce
the barrier to entry, but at the same time, you
have to do it in such a way that it
is a safe and documented product. Because the same problem
(29:50):
that Ryan was talking about in terms of the gateway drug.
They can put synthetics on anything if it's not regulated,
and that's the problem. And if you regulate it, then
you make the cost of entry very hard.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You know, Talbor. We heard President Reagan throw out a
bunch of different names for cannabis. There's another one he
didn't say, and that is ganja, which is what it's
called in a lot of the Caribbean.
Speaker 12 (30:12):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And we can't talk about ganja in the Caribbean without
mentioning the late Jamaica musician Bob Marley who called marijuana
herb in this interview. Listen, herb is a plant.
Speaker 13 (30:26):
I mean, herb's so good for everything. Why why these
people who want to do so much good for everyone,
who call themselves governments and this and that? Why them
saying must not use there.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm pretty sure Bob's high on that interview ninety and
that interview was from nineteen seventy nine, when herb was
still very much illegal in Jamaica.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I love that accent so much. I just love it.
You'll coll be right back with more of the medal.
This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're asking you
this hour is marijuana legalization working. You can call us
at eight for middle and I am joined by Kent Veran,
a director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center at Penn
State University, and journalist Ryan Nur's, author of Marijuana America.
(31:17):
And a lot of calls coming in. Let's go to Brendan,
who is in Nasty Michigan. Brendan, welcome to the middle
Go ahead.
Speaker 17 (31:25):
Hello, I was just calling and my opinion on legalization
of marijuana is that overall it's beneficial, but there is
a serious problem in the for the youth. Is made
the marijuana far too accessible four people who are under
the age of twenty one, and I mean it's become
(31:46):
a serious problem. I mean almost everyone I know. I'm
in college and almost everyone I know smokeswed and a
lot of them on a daily basis, and some of
them even doing class. And I remember in high school
people doing the same thing, going off into the bathrooms
and just vaping, people smoking uh marijuana in there, and
(32:10):
and and over. Wall is the problem because I mean,
marijuana has marijuana impacts like the brain of developing people
under the age of twenty five and the such such
of the extent of youth, though, smoking marijuana is a problem.
And I've seen like people's like first time I've seen
(32:33):
people's like personalities kind of change and then the emissions
change after after smoking marijuana. Now it's it's not the
most drastic of changed, like how people said in the past,
like like always smoked pot and then they this whole
family like nothing like that, But it has been detrimental.
(32:55):
Change is over wall detrimental.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Brendan, thank you very much for that call. Let's get
to another one. And Patty, who is in Tampa, Florida. Hi, Patty,
go ahead, welcome.
Speaker 8 (33:08):
To the moment.
Speaker 15 (33:08):
Hey, Jeremy, great show.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
A couple of things.
Speaker 6 (33:11):
I definitely don't want the wal martization of weed, but
I'm all for it being legal. And I am here
to say, as an adolescent, I did get high and
it was actually helpful and arguably probably more helpful than
any psychotropic medication that was available at the time that
could have also done some permanent remapping of my brain,
(33:36):
maybe not in a positive way, right, So maybe we
should stop looking at this as a one size fits
all silver bullet. I mean, regulation great thing, let's be
thoughtful about it. But also aren't we disenfranchising cartels. I mean,
if we take a source of income out of their
hands and legalize it, isn't that a good thing?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Patty? Thank you for that, Kent Rana. Two very different
views there from our listeners.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
Yeah, but I think they both have a nuggetive truth
in what they said. I think the to the latter
point about the cartels, the problem is that because the
legislatures want to tax it, it's going to have a
cost disadvantage, and so they'll still be a black market.
There's no question about that. And as for the change
(34:27):
in personality and the substitute for other psychotropic drugs from
both of those speakers, that's true. It's highly individualized. One
size does not fit all fit all, and I cannot
say that you're going to use this and you're going
to have problems. Many people lead long productive lives smoking
pot on a regular basis, but the data are clear
(34:51):
that for a subset that's not the case.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Let's go to Kalin, who's in Burrellville, Rhode Island. Klan,
what do you think, Welcome to the middle So.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I actually worked in the cannabis industry where I lived
where island, But my town is right on the line
of Massachusetts, where cannabis has been legal for quite some time,
and I as as a canvas user for some long
before campus is legalized, I have seen an overall positive
change in just the culture and the the overall safety
(35:27):
of cannabis in general. I think that it's important as
at least in Massachusetts there's strength third party testing for
everything in the dispensaries. Yeah, and I think that it's
important to note that even though the potencies might be higher,
(35:49):
it's it's still there's an overall seeper environment.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, there's still some some some testing there. Ryan Ners.
It's funny, we've already had a couple of calls from
people who have worked or do work in the cannabis industry.
What does that tell you?
Speaker 9 (36:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of people
in the cannabis industry who are really sort of disenchanted
with it. You know, the the man who call from Louisiana,
you know, who thinks that it's become this this tiny
little market and there their lobbying for it. And I
can tell you when when I was researching this, and
and still there's a lot of people from the world
(36:24):
of cannabis who if you say anything against it, they'll
come at you and they make you feel like a
square and like an idiot. And I think that, you know,
at the same time, there's a lot of people who
really appreciate the fact that you can now go and
go to a place and have and have a thing
where they tell you how much THC is in it,
how much CBD is in it, and have it just
(36:46):
like a liquor store where you actually know what you're getting.
So I think there's sort of both sides to So
there's people who are from the actual sort of institutionalized
cannabis world.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Daisy is joining us from Belleville, Idaho. Daisy, Welcome to
the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (37:01):
Thank you very much. I'm a sixty seven year old
cancer survivor. I grew up in the sixties and seventies
and cannabis and hard drugs were in their kind of
popularity infancy, if you will. And you know, smoking pot
(37:26):
back then was a different experience for me. I tried it.
I didn't really like the way it made me feel.
It was a popularity thing. However, as when I did
smoke it and legally in California, I had a medical
(37:46):
reason for it. And it was prescribed. For me, I
did not like the way it felt, although it did
simulate my appetite, which helped me through my chemotherapy, and
that was a benefit of it, even though for me
the experience was not pleasant. I don't believe that children
(38:07):
have the ability to say no to something that's popular,
and I think peer pressure would play a lot of things. Also,
in gummy form, they're tasty. And therefore, if you know,
for children, anyone under a certain age, and I'm not
(38:28):
sure whether that's eighteen or twenty one, I'm also the
I'm also a child of drug addicts and alcoholics, and
in that way, I feel that criminalization of drug users
is really not does do nothing as far as the
(38:53):
becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. I think that that is
might have a genetic and people are going to use
drugs and alcohol and you can't I don't believe that
a government can really stop that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Daisy a lot there. So let me go to our
guest on that. Yeah, Ken, what about the medical benefits
of it? What do you know in your research about
the medical benefits of marijuana for people like Daisy, who's
a cancer survivor's she.
Speaker 8 (39:28):
Is a poster child for the medical benefits. Let's remember
that we've got four FDA Federal government approved drugs that
are derived from cannabis. Drenavinol, which is just purified THHC
in an oral form that stimulates the appetite. As Daisy said,
we've got one that CBD purified CBD for epilepsy. It
(39:49):
has medical benefits. But going back to what Ryan said
perhaps thirty minutes ago, who thought it was a good
idea to put a strong psychoactive drug in something that
looks like a gummy bear, we had our first death
attributed to cannabis and a youngster that got into mom's gummies,
and mom's serving time now for negligent homicide. And so
(40:11):
that's something that we've got to get under control. And
I like your idea, Ryan that let's not make it colorful,
let's not put flavorance in it. It's used for a
medical benefit. And then I'll very quickly close by pointing
out that a lot of our elderly patients in the
medical program here in Pennsylvania say, I don't want to
smoke because I don't want the way it feels, but
(40:33):
it helps me with this or that problem that I have.
I'm all in on that. It's just we've got to
get our hands around.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
How to do it. Tolliver some messages coming in and
listened to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Absolutely absolutely, absolutely, ld in Colorado says my vote for
marijuana is the only vote I regret. It has ruined
my home state. All my friends are on it and
they are highly addicted to it. Jeremy, the last time
I did an edible was in Colorado Springs and it
was the worst time in my life.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So wow, it's an only Okay, let's go to Aaron
who's in Chicago. Hi, Aaron, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 18 (41:06):
Hey, how you doing doing great?
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Go ahead?
Speaker 14 (41:08):
Thanks?
Speaker 10 (41:10):
Yeah, you know what, I think, legalization has its merits
and also has its downfalls. I want to first start
by saying that cannabis users are not criminals, and the
only way to get cannabis into a realm of safety
in the public is legalization on a federal level. You
(41:32):
guys have touched on you.
Speaker 18 (41:33):
Know, packaging and THHC amounts and the benefits and the downfalls.
The only way to do that is have a federal standard,
because if you go to different states, they have different
they have they're all different, you know, the amounts you
could buy, the kinds you can get, and it's very
deceiving when you go into a place that you've never
(41:55):
been before and you maybe get an edible or a
kind of you know, a sgular.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
Product, you might not be familiar with those percentages.
Speaker 18 (42:05):
And that's that's a huge thing.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's a great point.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
Aron.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Let's talk about that. The federal side of it. Ryan
all these states twenty four in counting of legalized, but
the federal government it's still illegal. It's still a Schedule
one drug, which is the I guess the worst kind.
But what what about that? Do you would you think
there'll be action at the federal level.
Speaker 9 (42:28):
God, it's it's just so silly. And I think I
think can't probably understands the frustrations in the world of research,
you know, I mean, we can't even people talk about,
well the research says this, and that there's really not
that great of research because we can't get past this
Schedule one issue. And you know, I think it's just
incredibly frustrating to the point where it's we have ninety
(42:50):
percent of Americans say that they're in favor of some
form of legalization, I think seventy six percent of Americans
live in states where there is some form of legalization.
It's happened, it's over, you know. And meanwhile, Chuck Schumer's
put a bill out, some other politicians have put bills up,
and they just keep getting quashed by Congress and the Senate.
(43:11):
I just really don't understand the deal. Like we're there,
just like hit the layup and figure it out and
make it happen, is my take.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Kent, do you think that that is true that if
the federal government were to just legalize marijuana federally, then
it would be better than just this patchwork of different
states with different products and different regulations.
Speaker 8 (43:31):
I don't think there's any question. Ryan's absolutely right. I
think the problem is that the federal government has failed
us on this one. I suspect what's going to happen
next is they will descheduled and it should be a
scheduled three and just you commented on it's the worst
kind A Schedule one drug is defined as a drug
that has no medical benefit and addictive potential. Well, we
(43:55):
know it has medical benefit because it's used medically and
it's FDA approved or opponents are the problem is that
it's classified because of the addictive potential with things like
PCP and LSD and other psychedelics. The Feds have failed
us on this one.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Let's go to Mitchell, who's in Tallahassee, Florida. Mitchell, Welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (44:21):
Hi.
Speaker 19 (44:21):
My dad was a US customers agent in the nineteen
late nineteen seventies early eighties, the height of the drug
war on go fast boats check catching drug smugglers and
the keys in Puerto Rico. My brother is a state trooper.
I come from a law enforcement family and know the
legality of marijuana is unjust and at first was xenophobic, racist,
(44:45):
and then became homophobic and then became legal for medical
reasons because of the age epidemic in the eighties.
Speaker 11 (44:52):
So a lot is.
Speaker 19 (44:56):
Missing in this conversation regarding its history, and we have
to recognize that it won't be better until the federal
government changes and recognizes that history and changes that fact.
People are stamped with disapproval by their federal government or
by their local government and can't get a job, They're
losing housing because they're based as a criminal. Whenever they're
(45:18):
arrested for small amounts of marijuana. The legality of marijuana
is far safer than the illegality of marijuana because there's
a business you can go to, you can talk to
someone who actually grew it. It's regulated, whereas in an
illegal market it's there's no business, there's no business hours,
it's a sketchy area. You're the person that's a drug
(45:38):
dealer that you're meeting doesn't doesn't haven't even grown it
or didn't grow it, and they don't know what it's
laced with, or fentanyl or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
So yeah, we've got it right there. Mitchell, thank you
very much for bringing up those points. Ryan Neurs, your thoughts.
Speaker 9 (45:55):
Yeah, I mean, I think as ken had said earlier,
the fact is that no matter how legal we make it,
if it's federally legal or not, the black market is
not going to die.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
You know, it's just not.
Speaker 9 (46:06):
I mean, you know, when I was out in California,
I was hanging out in the hills with you know,
these cultivators, and you know, you go to these towns
and you think it's going to be peaceful hippies, and
it was actually kind of intense. I mean, it was
like hippies with guns and they were taken over the
side of a mountain, and they were giving part of
their weed to to the dispensaries, and then they were
giving making most of their money by transporting it across
(46:28):
state lines to places where they could sell it for
a lot more. And so the black market's not going
to go away.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
That's the you know, I think.
Speaker 9 (46:35):
I agree in general, like regulate it, own it, you know,
that's what I was saying. I just think that the
black market, the gray market, is not really going to
completely die. We might get rid of like cartel, you know,
marijuana coming from Mexico, but but there's still going to
be this issue, and there's going to be people buying
drugs from their drug dealer, I have to say.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
And we have more calls. Unfortunately we don't have time
to get to them now, but people can leave messages
and and we will listen to them and we'll get
them on the show some of them next week. But
two takeaways for me from this hour. Number one is
thinking about the packaging of edibles and that indeed, you know,
they probably shouldn't be colorful in all of that for
(47:15):
for younger people. And number two, the potency issue I
think is really important it's it's surprising to me that
more states haven't actually started regulating the potency of marijuana,
especially as you're seeing people go into the hospital with problems.
Now we have time for a quiz tolliver for our guests.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Absolutely, okay, just jump in when you got it. Fellas.
The question is which state has the most dispensaries per capita?
Is it Oklahoma, California, Michigan.
Speaker 8 (47:40):
Or New York?
Speaker 1 (47:42):
And he guesses Ryan or Ken.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Im, that's hard.
Speaker 9 (47:45):
I'm gonna go with Michigan just on the per capita basis.
By that's a that's a that's a stumber.
Speaker 13 (47:51):
Ken.
Speaker 8 (47:51):
Yeah, I'm in, I'm in, I go. I go with
Ryan's answer.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
How's that you're both wrong?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
I think yeah, it's Oklahoma, Oklahoma and a shot per capita.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Very surprising. Well, I want to thank I want to
thank you both. Ryan a quiz. Well, it's a surprise.
You didn't know that Bob Marley was going to show
up at the show either. Kent Rana, who is charff
Pharmacology at Penn State University and the director of the
Medical Marijuana Research Center, and Ryan Ner is a journalist
and author of the book Marijuana America. Thanks so much
(48:23):
to both of you.
Speaker 8 (48:25):
Thank thanks for having us. It's been great fun.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And Tolliver, what do we have on tap for next
week's show?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
All Right, So, I know everyone wants to forget that
we just went through once in this century pandemic, but
in many cases we are still living in the shadow
of it. So we're asking, are you still feeling the
effects of the COVID pandemic? That could be the increased
cost of everything, how you work, your health, what COVID
has done to your relationships or your life in general.
You can call us at eight four four four six
four three three five three, are right in at Listen
(48:51):
to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
It's going to be a really interesting show as well.
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by Joe Anne Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. We also want to say thanks
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the more than four
(49:16):
hundred and ten public radio stations that are making it
possible for people across the country to listen to the
middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you next week.
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen Toothemiddle dot com.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I'm joined
(00:21):
as always by our house DJ Tolliver. Tolliver. You know,
as we go to air live, it is almost for twenty.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know what, Jeremy as a musician with dreadlocks, this
is like a national holiday for me well, and also like.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
We are so on the news here at the Middle
by doing that. So we're going to be talking this
hour about cannabis legalization and how well it is working.
It has only been about twelve years since Colorado and
Washington State legalized it for recreational use. Now twenty four
states have done the same, and more could legalize it
this year. But because things have moved so fast, there
(00:55):
hasn't been a lot of time to see how things
are working where it is legal. So that's our question
this hour, or how is it going? You can weigh
in at eight four four four Middle, that is eight
four four four six four three three five three. We'll
get to your calls in just a moment, but first,
last week we asked you if you were able to
save money for the future, and we've got a lot
of really great calls from all over the country, a
(01:16):
lot of thirty year olds. Take a listen to some
of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
My name is drum Murray. I live in Aiken, South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Hi, my name is Anastasia. I'm calling from Hasteins, Michigan.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Hi. My name is Joe and I'm calling from Wheaton, Illinois.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Hey, Jeremy, my.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
Name is Marty and I'm calling from Jacksonville.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
We'll love to say, but as millennial in this current economy,
I don't even know what that means in English.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
I was raised to be a saver.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
I took on any job I could get, and I
was always able to save at least fifteen percent of
whatever I made.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Am I saving from my future? No where I grew up,
we started hearing early, don't be prepared to retire compared
to work until you die. Fortunately have a groth ira
for both my wife and myself, as well as at
tension that I have from teaching and a for one
cave that I'm contributing to, and of course there's always
(02:14):
the hopes of social security. So that's how I've been saving.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Thanks again to everyone who called or wrote in. You
can see some of the emails in our weekly newsletter,
which you can sign up for at listen to the
miiddle dot com. So now to this week's topic, cannabis legalization.
How well is it working? It is now legal for
medical use in thirty eight states and for recreational use
in twenty four. There are some medical benefits and people
(02:39):
like it. Full disclosure, Tolliver, I enjoy the occasional edible No,
it's true, but there are also serious questions about regulation,
how potent the available strands have become addiction and use
among younger people whose brains are not fully developed. So
this hour, our question for you is marijuana legalization working? Tolliver?
What is the no to call in?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's eight four four four Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
email us at listen to themiddle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So let's meet our panel. Kent Vana is chair of
pharmacology and director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center. At
Penn State University, Kent.
Speaker 8 (03:14):
Welcome to the Middle, Thanks Jeremy for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And Ryan nurs joins us as well. He has covered
cannabis legalization as a journalist since its early days and
wrote Marijuana America, which is a memoir about that experience. Ryan,
Welcome to the Middle, Thanks Jeremy. Good to be here.
And before we get to the phones, you're both living
in states that may legalize recreational marijuana this year. Florida
for you, Ryan, Pennsylvania for you, Kent. Ryan, what is
(03:40):
the debate like in Florida where voters are going to
decide this November about recreational marijuana.
Speaker 9 (03:47):
The debate is getting pretty pretty interesting here it You know,
we've had medical marijuana for a while now. I am
a medical marijuana card holder, and we are right now
the biggest medical marijuana tax by tax revenue state. And
so this recreational ballot has been sort of on the
(04:07):
docket for a while. It's been knocked down by Republicans
for a long time. The Supreme Court just allowed it
to be, you know, in the ballot, but you have
to get sixty percent, which is a very very high barrier.
They were originally polling around seventy percent, but recently they've
said that it's fifty six percent, and so now it's
going to be up to the lobbyists. There's a lot
(04:28):
of money here. There's a company called True Leave that's
put in forty million dollars into this to get a
million ballot signatures, and so there's going to be just
a huge debate and a lot of money put at
getting people over that sixty.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Pers And the people who are against it in Florida,
what are they saying, what is there, if there, what's
their number one reason why they don't think that recreational
marijuana should be allowed there?
Speaker 9 (04:51):
Well, you know, shockingly enough, one of the biggest voices
is mister DeSantis, who is you know, he's saying that
it's you know, it's radical, that it's going to reduce
quality of life. And I think those are probably your
you know, your loudest voices in the room are these
sort of you know, family oriented, very conservative voices. As
(05:12):
you know, people have heard, there's a lot of you know,
Sarasota is a place where they're trying to be the
architects of like a new conservative reality in the United States,
and make America Florida for better or worse.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Ken What about in Pennsylvania, where it's the legislature that
may decide to legalize recreational marijuana. You have testified two
lawmakers you have serious concerns about it.
Speaker 8 (05:35):
What are they well? In particular, I'm just concerned about
legalizing another abused substance. I make it very clear. I
believe that my drug of choice, a good single barrel bourbon,
is far worse than cannabis. But that's not an excuse
to create another impairing, legal impairing drug. And most of
(05:55):
my concerns revolve around the next generation, because the strength
of the stuff that's coming onto the market now, and
then the use by adolescence is a big concern of mine.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
What about you mentioned alcohol there? How does it compare
cannabis to alcohol when it comes to the addictive qualities
of it? Have you found in your research?
Speaker 8 (06:17):
They're both addictive, Jeremy, But it's clear that alcohol's far worse.
It's far worse for medical outcomes, it's far worse on
your body and for society, for families. But that argument
doesn't hold sway if you realize that cannabis is itself
not without dangers, it's just that it's on a different level.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Ryan. When legalization was pitched, there was a vision painted
that people and communities who were harmed by cannabis criminalization
would have opportunities to benefit from legalization. How has that
played out as far as you know.
Speaker 9 (06:53):
You know, I think there's been a lot of a
lot of states where that's been quite a disappointment. New
York State is an example, right where that was their
pitch was that, you know, we're going to take it
off the black market, there's going to be a lot
of you know, a lot less incarceration for you know,
black and brown and sort of underprivileged communities, and that's
not really the way it's played out in the sense that,
(07:14):
you know, the barrier to entry is really high. I mean,
just to apply for a permit in Florida is one
hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and then you have to
vertically integrate just to even be in the game, and
that means you have to do cultivation, everything, all the
different things, you know, have your own dispensaries. And there's
only twenty five players in the market in Florida.
Speaker 10 (07:35):
So the fact is is that it's.
Speaker 9 (07:37):
Probably not really going to get rid of the black market.
It will reduce incarceration, but there's still going to be
these big corporate players like True Leave that are really
going to dictate the market.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Let's go to the phones and Eli, who's in Michigan. Eli,
Welcome to the middle. Do you think or how do
you think marijuana legalization is working?
Speaker 11 (07:56):
I think it's doing great. Where I'm from in Wayne County, Michigan,
down river, it's doing great. We just actually recently, uh,
less than ten miles from my house, we have about
five new di sponsories. They're having their grand openings right now.
And I think it's great to take it off the
black market because less interaction with more illegal drugs and like,
(08:16):
like a lot of the guys are saying adolescents, it's bad,
but I'm thinking the only thing that's bad about it
for the adolescens now is that they're still having to
proquire it off the black market and they're gonna be uh,
you know, get into uh with these guys and people
willing to sell to them, who are willing to sell
other drugs as well. But as far as taking off
the black market, it's great, and it's also great for
(08:36):
recreational marijuana because I went to jail for it when
I was a young man, and I think it's great
that a lot of these young guys are no longer
going to be in jail for it.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You went to jail for it when you were younger,
What what happened? Did have you have you had that
wiped off your record or what happened?
Speaker 11 (08:52):
No, it still hasn't been off my record. I just
it was just brought up. It was a possession of
marijuana and the judge still uses it like it was
a drug charge. And no, it hasn't been wiped off
my record. I ended up having to serve thirty days
in jail for it in Wayne County Jail, and it
wasn't a fun time. And I can tell you, at
least my story, that it led down to a darker
(09:13):
road of you know, the people you deal with and
the criminology that it leads you to. Just sending a
young man to jail, Yeah, it led me down to
a darker road.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Eli, thanks so much for calling in, and kent Rona
actually brings up another question that I had, which is
has it done anything in terms of a darker road?
Has it done anything. The legalization of marijuana in terms
of getting people to not use things like opioids. Has
it changed the use of other drugs?
Speaker 8 (09:43):
I don't think those data are very very clear cut.
And the big problem is that if you look at
any jurisdiction, any state, you're going to see a different
set of laws and a different set of regulations. So
it's very hard to understand if it's really going to
have that effect. I would hope so, but I don't
think the data very clear there. What worries me a
little bit, just to play off what Eli said a
(10:05):
moment ago, is the fact that what we don't understand
is that when when we legalize recreational it sends the
subtle message to youngsters adolescents in particular, that it is okay.
And the fact of the matter is, while it will
not be as immediately destructive as alcohol, it still has
its problems. One of the most significant, perhaps is the
(10:28):
increased association with schizophrenia later in life. So it's not
nearly as destructive as alcohol. But as I said at
the outset, is that a reason to add another potentially
dangerous compound to our youth.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Ryan, what do you think about that.
Speaker 9 (10:45):
You know, I think it's pretty complicated. You know, when
I wrote my you know, my book at the kind
of beginning of legalization. You know, I'm a user. I've
enjoyed it. I'm a very productive person. I play sports
and stop using cannabis. But I recognize that, you know,
when kids have developing brains, it's not you know, it's
not great for that. I've heard of this association, like
(11:05):
Kent said, with with you know, schizophrenia and people who
already have delicate psychees. I think it's pretty pretty delicate.
And we're here in Florida is a state that has
not limited the concentration you can use, so you can,
you know, I can go to my medical marijuana dispensary
and get ninety five percent THHC. And you know there's
people doing that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
They don't realize.
Speaker 9 (11:26):
You go to a liquor store, you know the difference
between beer and vodka and like ever clear or like
almost like a moonshine, and sometimes you're getting like moonshine.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You know, we're going to get to the potency in
a moment with Tolliver. And one thing that I've noticed
is you can hear the speed of change in attitudes
about marijuana by listening back to our presidents over the
last forty years or so.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, listen here to Ronald Reagan and then Bill Clinton
talking about marijuana.
Speaker 12 (11:51):
Leading medical researchers are coming to the conclusion that marijuana, pot, grass,
whatever you want to call it, is probably the most
dangerous drug in the United States. And we haven't begun
to find out all of the ill effects, but they
are permanent ill effects. When I was in England, I
experimented with marijuana a time or two and I didn't
(12:13):
like it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
And he didn't Inhale and never try it again.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Let the record show he did not Inhale. Okay, he did.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I neither never will.
Speaker 13 (12:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
By the way, you can give us a five star
rating on any where you listen to podcasts, and also
you can make a donation to the Middle at listen
to Themiddle dot com and we'll be right back with
more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning. In the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
(12:47):
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you how well is cannabis legalization working? Tolliver.
How can people reach us?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And before we go back to the phones, I want
to talk about potency. Levels of THCHC, which is the
psychoactive substance in cannabis, have been stead steadily increasing over
the decades. In nineteen eighty, the marijuana that was available
had less than two percent THCHC. Today there are plant
strains with more than thirty percent, and cannabis concentrates can
be more than ninety percent THCHC. So in Washington State,
(13:27):
where recreational marijuana has been legal since twenty twelve, there
are calls to regulate THCHC potency and State Senator Jesse Solomon,
who's a Democrat, supported legalization, but he now thinks things
have gotten a little out of control. I spoke to
him earlier and asked him why it was important to
try and pass a law about potency.
Speaker 14 (13:46):
Well, when we passed the legalization of marijuana. It was
essentially a flower that you'd smoke the bud. We didn't
have all these derivative products that were created a lab.
But now what we're seeing is they isolate the THHC.
They make products that are many, many, many times more potent,
almost one hundred percent THHC, and that is driving some
(14:09):
mental health issues among youth. So, for example, we're seeing
an increase in early onset schizophrenia, psychosis, hyperkinesis syndrome where
people have vomiting, and that's concerning I'm not an anti
I'm marijuana person. I'm frustrated by the industry and what
they've done.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And right now in Washington State, there's no regulation on
the potency of marijuana. Nope. How hard has it been
for you to get a bill through the legislature there?
Speaker 14 (14:38):
It's been hard. This is the first time this last
year that we got anything through and it was significant,
but it was also watered down. There's no cap on
TFC content.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And is it being watered down because of pressure from
the cannabis industry or because of your fellow lawmakers or what.
Speaker 14 (14:54):
First especially from the cannabis industry, and then they get
to the lawmakers so yes to both. You know, they
behave this year like the tobacco industry behaves or used
to behave, which was really frustrating because I remember when
I was interested in seeing the legalization of marijuana, all
the advocates were like, this is not going to be
the same thing. It's like, hey, man, have a heart.
(15:15):
Let people have some of this weed for this medical
issue or you know, whatever they want it for. But
now they're essentially like any other special interest group. They're organized,
they have money that contribute a lot of money to candidates.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
As we have said, your state, Washington State, was one
of the first states, one of the two first states
along with Colorado, to legalize recreational marijuana a little over
ten years ago. What advice would you have right now
for policymakers in other states, including states that are considering
legalizing recreational marijuana right now.
Speaker 14 (15:50):
I really think you need to look at the data
and the science that's been coming out in the studies
and how that's affecting young people, and then you should
probably cap potency. You should probably prevent products from being
attractive to kids, including very young kids, so like gummies
look like gummy bears and just envisioned out what could
possibly go wrong and plan for that, because once that
(16:12):
ship has sailed, as you can see from my tale
of the special interest lobbying, it's very hard to change course.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
That was Washington State Senator Jesse Solomon. Let me bring
back our guests, Ryan NER's, journalist and author of Marijuana America,
and Kent Varana, director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center
at Penn State University. Ryan, why is the potency so
much higher? I have seen videos from the nineteen seventies
and people who were stone looked like they were doing
just fine.
Speaker 9 (16:40):
Yeah, it's a valid point. I mean that's because the
percentage of thad was really low. I mean sometimes that
that you know, what we now call ditchweed was like
eight percent, you know, seven percent, ten percent, And now
you know, it's just a matter of farming and cultivation.
I mean, they just keep they keep cultivating this flower
to you know, only they only you know, pro create
(17:03):
cannabis buds with the best and the best and the best,
and it just gets higher and higher and higher, and
you can see it in the stores. I mean it's
and then you and then you create concentrations from that.
So you take a thirty percent level THCHC bud and
you concentrate it into a sticky little like hash oil,
and it can get up, as you said to above
ninety percent.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And kent rona. When you have THC potency at that level,
is it a problem for people that aren't just teenagers
or younger people, but anyone who is using that.
Speaker 8 (17:33):
That's a significant problem, especially for the non experienced person.
So when you get those kinds of concentrations, you can
precipitate psychotic events. They're very rare. I'm not trying to
demonize marijuana or THHC dominant cannabis, but what's happened in
this selective breeding that Ryan was talking about is that
the we're about maxing out the plants at thirty thirty
(17:55):
five percent THCHC, but in the process, the amount of
cannabi dieol ORSBD. Everyone knows CBD or that opposes the
effects of THC. It levens it if you will, And
so we're basically getting these purified extracts unopposed THHC activity.
It's causing increase in psychoses. Those are now coming out
(18:18):
in the literature, and this hyper emesis syndrome that the
senator was talking about this uncontrolled vomiting. One of my
mdphd students has seen three cases in pediatrics in the
last week, and that used to be a thing very written.
So it is a problem.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
A lot of calls coming in. Let's go to Javon,
who's in Tampa, Florida. Javon, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (18:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I think there needs to be a mature in the
way we understand marijuana use. About one hundred just over
one hundred years ago, liquor consumption anytimiday while on the job,
before driving, these things were relatively common, which in some
ways led to prohibition and radical changes in the way
we thought of socially, politically, and legally about the consumption
(19:06):
of alcohol. And I think that's where we are with
marijuana now. As the guests have been speaking about, the
concentrations of THHC have escalated. People are experiencing dangerous side effects.
So we just need to kind of grow up in
what we think of as safe recreational or even medicinal use.
If this is going to be something that we allow
in our communities, I don't know if it's working. I
(19:29):
just think we need to be more thoughtful about what
does it mean to enjoy marijuana versus you know, the
we're kind of in a wild wild West period right now.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Are you going to be voting for legalization recreationally in
Florida this November?
Speaker 15 (19:45):
Yes? I will.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I think there are the criminal charges that people are
facing for recreational use, the harm that that does to
our communities are tremendous. I think overall, legalization is a
are path than criminalization. So you know, I people are
gonna smoke pot. You know, keeping it illegal is just
(20:08):
going to continue to feed into a criminal justice system
that disenfranchises black and brown and poor people.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Javan Thanks for that call. Ryan. What about what Javon
said there about sort of a cultural shift in the
way we think about consuming marijuana. Do you think that
any has really happened over the last ten years since
it really started to be legal in many places?
Speaker 12 (20:32):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (20:32):
Yeah, I think there's been a massive cultural shift. I mean,
you know the I think part of the positive side
of that was there used to be this cliche of
the like couch locked stoner with you know, Cheetoh's dust
on his chest doing nothing, and now we realize, you know,
there's plenty of musicians and you know, I have friends
who are investment bankers, lawyers who are absolutely productive and
(20:54):
use cannabis in a totally fruitful way. On the other
side of that, you know, now there's gonna be like
he said, maybe they're needs to be another shift, which is,
you know, maybe we don't want to introduce it to
kids as like you know, gummy bears. We don't want
kids doing it too early, and maybe we don't want
our towns like wreeking of weed. Like you know, a
lot of backlash has been in New York City.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Let's go to Sohail, who's in Houston, Texas. Sohil, I
hope I'm saying your name correctly, but go ahead. Welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 13 (21:26):
So.
Speaker 7 (21:26):
I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, and I
also see adults as well. I moved from Illinois in
twenty twenty when marijuana was legalized there. In Texas, so
far it is not.
Speaker 15 (21:41):
So.
Speaker 7 (21:41):
As a psychiatrist, I am seeing a huge number of children,
adolescent and young adults coming in with psychosis, catatonia, alta
mental status. They're requiring afty doses of medication to bring
them back. Some of them, are are returning, some of
them are taking long time. I have presented on this
(22:04):
topic at National Child Psychiatric Conference and met so many
colleagues all across the country who are experiencing the same
kind of issues with young adolescents coming in and requiring
a great amount of attention that is not seen five
years ago when I was an Illinois and Missouri, which
(22:27):
is a huge number.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So what do you suggest, What would your message be
right now to politicians and policymakers and even voters who
are deciding whether to legalize recreational marijuana. Is there something
that should be done in order to make sure that
you're not seeing so many young people come in to
see you with with issues because of marijuana use.
Speaker 7 (22:49):
One message would be cleared to have a medical expert.
So for example, in Illinois, there was non medical expert available.
Are you know being in and giving their opinion expert
opinion as to what it is? What are the potential
side of facts? I mean, marijuana is a gateway drug.
When I worked at the rehab there were so many
(23:09):
people who started with marijuana ended up and met in
their thirties. So from medical experts, I think their potential
experience should be taken into consideration when the policy is
being made, and gummies and candies should be monitored. You know,
I can walk into gas station here in Houston next
door and I can find any gummy and there's no
(23:31):
age limitation and it has a tesc Are Synthetic products
all right, So hel.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Thank you very much for that. And Ken Ronald, let
me go to you on that. What do you make
of that? It's a lot of what you've been talking
about as well.
Speaker 8 (23:45):
Well. I think it's it's part of the problem is
the unregulated materials. I think the country would benefit tremendously
by having a unified idea of what's going on. As
Ryan was saying earlier that you only have to go
back fifty years and we had the three martini lunch
and it was accepted at that time, and we have
evolved to the point with alcohol that that's not the case.
(24:07):
What so Hail talks about that is important is, especially
with edibles, it permits the discrete use in a public
setting with a drug that does not show the outward
signs that alcohol does. And so what that permits is
students youngsters to use and in such a way that
(24:27):
we can't immediately identify their use, and so they get
to a point where they're using these very high concentration
products and then this acute persistent psychoses that he's describing
that may require antipsychotic drugs to treat. Again, it's a
rare syndrome, but it is a real syndrome.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah. Ryan. It reminds me of when I was going
through school and we had the DARE program and they
basically said, you know, marijuana is a gateway drug. It's
going to lead you to do other things. And there's
been a lot of pushback about that the years. But
what do you think about that we do? Yeah, the
government has started to pull back on allowing like menthol
flavored cigarettes and things because teenagers get into them and
(25:10):
then they get addicted. What about I mean, is it
time to get rid of gummies?
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Man?
Speaker 9 (25:16):
I you know, I think it's I think it's really challenging.
I think there's something about the packaging that I agree with.
I mean, so for you know, here we have medical marijuana.
You're packaging is very clinical. It looks like it almost
looks like a prescription drug.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And to me, that's that's good enough.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
I don't think it needs to be these colorful looking,
like cute little gummy bears, and you know, so that's
one thing. You know, I think the as far as
the gateway drug thing goes, I think that's a really
slippery thing because you know, there's a lot of what
the gateway drug was that you got weed from legal
illegal markets, and the same people that you got that
illegal weed from we're selling other things, and so this
(25:54):
is shifting a little bit away from that. I do
think it can be a little bit of a gateway drug,
but some of that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Was because on the black market. Taliver. Some notes are
coming in online.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Absolutely, p in Chicago rights legalization of marijuana is bad news.
It still goes against the Surgeon General report that any
type of smoking causes lung cancer and laryngeal cancer, a
line with bad breath, smelly clothes, yellow teeth, addiction, and
early death.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Absolutely, Let's go to another call in Bow who is
in River Ridge, Louisiana. Bo Welcome to the middle Go.
Speaker 16 (26:24):
Ahead, Hey guys. Yeah, you guys are talking a lot
about Florida's recent legislation and ballot initiative, and I just
want to point out that that just further furthers the
fiefdom of the medical licenses currently existing. And it's one
example of a larger problem in the marijuana industry of
(26:45):
license consolidation with these large multi state operators. And I'm
the former director of cultivation for one of them, and
in fact, you know, built his career for ten years
in Denver, Colorado, and got the opportunity to come back
to Louisiana and unfortunately might have to leave again because
there's only two licenses to work for here, and so
(27:07):
we need to be careful in terms of who's lobbying
for the legislation that's going on the ballot. You know,
these Florida voters are just going to see do you
want over twenty one adults to be able to use marijuana?
And most of them are going to vote yes. The
issue is they don't realize that it creates essentially a
(27:28):
closed market and not a free market. And to me,
it's un what's happening.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
That's a great point, b Thank you so much for
that call. Ryan. There's a big issue going on in
New York City right now because of the way that
the market has worked and the fact that you know,
they had certain number of licenses and they are all
these sort of off license sellers of marijuana, and it's
all screwed up.
Speaker 9 (27:53):
Yeah, I mean it's you know, if you go around
the streets of Manhattan these days, there's something like twenty
five hundred illegal you know, they're calling them like pot
bodegas and basically places that where bodegas that may have
been selling you know, selling weed sort of you know,
on the side, on the counter or something. Now because
the barrier to entry is so high, everyone's just given
(28:15):
up and sort of been like, we're just going to
sell weed anyway it's legal, and it's almost just too
much for it. They didn't really know who was going
to have to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Is it NYPD?
Speaker 9 (28:25):
Is it the bureau that they've created to control cannabis.
So they're really dealing with it in real time, and
there's been a big backlash against it.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
For such a big business with so much tax revenue,
it really is surprising that there wasn't more forethought about
how this is going to work.
Speaker 8 (28:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (28:41):
I think that's one thing that people don't realize is
that people think, you just, oh, you know, we just
you know, we created legal weed here in Illinois or Ohio,
wherever you are. They don't realize that the implementation of
that is a whole nother ballgame. To create that bureaucracy
and to create that system takes a long time, and
in Florida you could just see them working out the kinks.
(29:01):
And a big part of it is just corporations come in,
take over, put all their money and like your last
caller said, you know, they have their own lobbies and
it just becomes like the walmartization of Wheed Kent.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Are they talking about in Pennsylvania. It's not legal there yet,
and they're the legislature is considering it. Are they talking
about how the business would work? Or are the people
that's trying to push it through.
Speaker 8 (29:24):
Now they're beginning to consider it, and unlike other jurisdictions,
at least they're listening. I mean, they gave me the
opportunity to tell them the pros and the cons to
the idea, but I don't think they've thought far enough
down the road. There is this incredible pressure to reduce
the barrier to entry, but at the same time, you
have to do it in such a way that it
is a safe and documented product. Because the same problem
(29:50):
that Ryan was talking about in terms of the gateway drug.
They can put synthetics on anything if it's not regulated,
and that's the problem. And if you regulate it, then
you make the cost of entry very hard.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You know, Talbor. We heard President Reagan throw out a
bunch of different names for cannabis. There's another one he
didn't say, and that is ganja, which is what it's
called in a lot of the Caribbean.
Speaker 12 (30:12):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And we can't talk about ganja in the Caribbean without
mentioning the late Jamaica musician Bob Marley who called marijuana
herb in this interview. Listen, herb is a plant.
Speaker 13 (30:26):
I mean, herb's so good for everything. Why why these
people who want to do so much good for everyone,
who call themselves governments and this and that? Why them
saying must not use there.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm pretty sure Bob's high on that interview ninety and
that interview was from nineteen seventy nine, when herb was
still very much illegal in Jamaica.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I love that accent so much. I just love it.
You'll coll be right back with more of the medal.
This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're asking you
this hour is marijuana legalization working. You can call us
at eight for middle and I am joined by Kent Veran,
a director of the Medical Marijuana Research Center at Penn
State University, and journalist Ryan Nur's, author of Marijuana America.
(31:17):
And a lot of calls coming in. Let's go to Brendan,
who is in Nasty Michigan. Brendan, welcome to the middle
Go ahead.
Speaker 17 (31:25):
Hello, I was just calling and my opinion on legalization
of marijuana is that overall it's beneficial, but there is
a serious problem in the for the youth. Is made
the marijuana far too accessible four people who are under
the age of twenty one, and I mean it's become
(31:46):
a serious problem. I mean almost everyone I know. I'm
in college and almost everyone I know smokeswed and a
lot of them on a daily basis, and some of
them even doing class. And I remember in high school
people doing the same thing, going off into the bathrooms
and just vaping, people smoking uh marijuana in there, and
(32:10):
and and over. Wall is the problem because I mean,
marijuana has marijuana impacts like the brain of developing people
under the age of twenty five and the such such
of the extent of youth, though, smoking marijuana is a problem.
And I've seen like people's like first time I've seen
(32:33):
people's like personalities kind of change and then the emissions
change after after smoking marijuana. Now it's it's not the
most drastic of changed, like how people said in the past,
like like always smoked pot and then they this whole
family like nothing like that, But it has been detrimental.
(32:55):
Change is over wall detrimental.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Brendan, thank you very much for that call. Let's get
to another one. And Patty, who is in Tampa, Florida. Hi, Patty,
go ahead, welcome.
Speaker 8 (33:08):
To the moment.
Speaker 15 (33:08):
Hey, Jeremy, great show.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
A couple of things.
Speaker 6 (33:11):
I definitely don't want the wal martization of weed, but
I'm all for it being legal. And I am here
to say, as an adolescent, I did get high and
it was actually helpful and arguably probably more helpful than
any psychotropic medication that was available at the time that
could have also done some permanent remapping of my brain,
(33:36):
maybe not in a positive way, right, So maybe we
should stop looking at this as a one size fits
all silver bullet. I mean, regulation great thing, let's be
thoughtful about it. But also aren't we disenfranchising cartels. I mean,
if we take a source of income out of their
hands and legalize it, isn't that a good thing?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Patty? Thank you for that, Kent Rana. Two very different
views there from our listeners.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
Yeah, but I think they both have a nuggetive truth
in what they said. I think the to the latter
point about the cartels, the problem is that because the
legislatures want to tax it, it's going to have a
cost disadvantage, and so they'll still be a black market.
There's no question about that. And as for the change
(34:27):
in personality and the substitute for other psychotropic drugs from
both of those speakers, that's true. It's highly individualized. One
size does not fit all fit all, and I cannot
say that you're going to use this and you're going
to have problems. Many people lead long productive lives smoking
pot on a regular basis, but the data are clear
(34:51):
that for a subset that's not the case.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Let's go to Kalin, who's in Burrellville, Rhode Island. Klan,
what do you think, Welcome to the middle So.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I actually worked in the cannabis industry where I lived
where island, But my town is right on the line
of Massachusetts, where cannabis has been legal for quite some time,
and I as as a canvas user for some long
before campus is legalized, I have seen an overall positive
change in just the culture and the the overall safety
(35:27):
of cannabis in general. I think that it's important as
at least in Massachusetts there's strength third party testing for
everything in the dispensaries. Yeah, and I think that it's
important to note that even though the potencies might be higher,
(35:49):
it's it's still there's an overall seeper environment.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, there's still some some some testing there. Ryan Ners.
It's funny, we've already had a couple of calls from
people who have worked or do work in the cannabis industry.
What does that tell you?
Speaker 9 (36:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of people
in the cannabis industry who are really sort of disenchanted
with it. You know, the the man who call from Louisiana,
you know, who thinks that it's become this this tiny
little market and there their lobbying for it. And I
can tell you when when I was researching this, and
and still there's a lot of people from the world
(36:24):
of cannabis who if you say anything against it, they'll
come at you and they make you feel like a
square and like an idiot. And I think that, you know,
at the same time, there's a lot of people who
really appreciate the fact that you can now go and
go to a place and have and have a thing
where they tell you how much THC is in it,
how much CBD is in it, and have it just
(36:46):
like a liquor store where you actually know what you're getting.
So I think there's sort of both sides to So
there's people who are from the actual sort of institutionalized
cannabis world.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Daisy is joining us from Belleville, Idaho. Daisy, Welcome to
the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (37:01):
Thank you very much. I'm a sixty seven year old
cancer survivor. I grew up in the sixties and seventies
and cannabis and hard drugs were in their kind of
popularity infancy, if you will. And you know, smoking pot
(37:26):
back then was a different experience for me. I tried it.
I didn't really like the way it made me feel.
It was a popularity thing. However, as when I did
smoke it and legally in California, I had a medical
(37:46):
reason for it. And it was prescribed. For me, I
did not like the way it felt, although it did
simulate my appetite, which helped me through my chemotherapy, and
that was a benefit of it, even though for me
the experience was not pleasant. I don't believe that children
(38:07):
have the ability to say no to something that's popular,
and I think peer pressure would play a lot of things. Also,
in gummy form, they're tasty. And therefore, if you know,
for children, anyone under a certain age, and I'm not
(38:28):
sure whether that's eighteen or twenty one, I'm also the
I'm also a child of drug addicts and alcoholics, and
in that way, I feel that criminalization of drug users
is really not does do nothing as far as the
(38:53):
becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. I think that that is
might have a genetic and people are going to use
drugs and alcohol and you can't I don't believe that
a government can really stop that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Daisy a lot there. So let me go to our
guest on that. Yeah, Ken, what about the medical benefits
of it? What do you know in your research about
the medical benefits of marijuana for people like Daisy, who's
a cancer survivor's she.
Speaker 8 (39:28):
Is a poster child for the medical benefits. Let's remember
that we've got four FDA Federal government approved drugs that
are derived from cannabis. Drenavinol, which is just purified THHC
in an oral form that stimulates the appetite. As Daisy said,
we've got one that CBD purified CBD for epilepsy. It
(39:49):
has medical benefits. But going back to what Ryan said
perhaps thirty minutes ago, who thought it was a good
idea to put a strong psychoactive drug in something that
looks like a gummy bear, we had our first death
attributed to cannabis and a youngster that got into mom's gummies,
and mom's serving time now for negligent homicide. And so
(40:11):
that's something that we've got to get under control. And
I like your idea, Ryan that let's not make it colorful,
let's not put flavorance in it. It's used for a
medical benefit. And then I'll very quickly close by pointing
out that a lot of our elderly patients in the
medical program here in Pennsylvania say, I don't want to
smoke because I don't want the way it feels, but
(40:33):
it helps me with this or that problem that I have.
I'm all in on that. It's just we've got to
get our hands around.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
How to do it. Tolliver some messages coming in and
listened to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Absolutely absolutely, absolutely, ld in Colorado says my vote for
marijuana is the only vote I regret. It has ruined
my home state. All my friends are on it and
they are highly addicted to it. Jeremy, the last time
I did an edible was in Colorado Springs and it
was the worst time in my life.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So wow, it's an only Okay, let's go to Aaron
who's in Chicago. Hi, Aaron, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 18 (41:06):
Hey, how you doing doing great?
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Go ahead?
Speaker 14 (41:08):
Thanks?
Speaker 10 (41:10):
Yeah, you know what, I think, legalization has its merits
and also has its downfalls. I want to first start
by saying that cannabis users are not criminals, and the
only way to get cannabis into a realm of safety
in the public is legalization on a federal level. You
(41:32):
guys have touched on you.
Speaker 18 (41:33):
Know, packaging and THHC amounts and the benefits and the downfalls.
The only way to do that is have a federal standard,
because if you go to different states, they have different
they have they're all different, you know, the amounts you
could buy, the kinds you can get, and it's very
deceiving when you go into a place that you've never
(41:55):
been before and you maybe get an edible or a
kind of you know, a sgular.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
Product, you might not be familiar with those percentages.
Speaker 18 (42:05):
And that's that's a huge thing.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's a great point.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
Aron.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Let's talk about that. The federal side of it. Ryan
all these states twenty four in counting of legalized, but
the federal government it's still illegal. It's still a Schedule
one drug, which is the I guess the worst kind.
But what what about that? Do you would you think
there'll be action at the federal level.
Speaker 9 (42:28):
God, it's it's just so silly. And I think I
think can't probably understands the frustrations in the world of research,
you know, I mean, we can't even people talk about,
well the research says this, and that there's really not
that great of research because we can't get past this
Schedule one issue. And you know, I think it's just
incredibly frustrating to the point where it's we have ninety
(42:50):
percent of Americans say that they're in favor of some
form of legalization, I think seventy six percent of Americans
live in states where there is some form of legalization.
It's happened, it's over, you know. And meanwhile, Chuck Schumer's
put a bill out, some other politicians have put bills up,
and they just keep getting quashed by Congress and the Senate.
(43:11):
I just really don't understand the deal. Like we're there,
just like hit the layup and figure it out and
make it happen, is my take.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Kent, do you think that that is true that if
the federal government were to just legalize marijuana federally, then
it would be better than just this patchwork of different
states with different products and different regulations.
Speaker 8 (43:31):
I don't think there's any question. Ryan's absolutely right. I
think the problem is that the federal government has failed
us on this one. I suspect what's going to happen
next is they will descheduled and it should be a
scheduled three and just you commented on it's the worst
kind A Schedule one drug is defined as a drug
that has no medical benefit and addictive potential. Well, we
(43:55):
know it has medical benefit because it's used medically and
it's FDA approved or opponents are the problem is that
it's classified because of the addictive potential with things like
PCP and LSD and other psychedelics. The Feds have failed
us on this one.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Let's go to Mitchell, who's in Tallahassee, Florida. Mitchell, Welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 15 (44:21):
Hi.
Speaker 19 (44:21):
My dad was a US customers agent in the nineteen
late nineteen seventies early eighties, the height of the drug
war on go fast boats check catching drug smugglers and
the keys in Puerto Rico. My brother is a state trooper.
I come from a law enforcement family and know the
legality of marijuana is unjust and at first was xenophobic, racist,
(44:45):
and then became homophobic and then became legal for medical
reasons because of the age epidemic in the eighties.
Speaker 11 (44:52):
So a lot is.
Speaker 19 (44:56):
Missing in this conversation regarding its history, and we have
to recognize that it won't be better until the federal
government changes and recognizes that history and changes that fact.
People are stamped with disapproval by their federal government or
by their local government and can't get a job, They're
losing housing because they're based as a criminal. Whenever they're
(45:18):
arrested for small amounts of marijuana. The legality of marijuana
is far safer than the illegality of marijuana because there's
a business you can go to, you can talk to
someone who actually grew it. It's regulated, whereas in an
illegal market it's there's no business, there's no business hours,
it's a sketchy area. You're the person that's a drug
(45:38):
dealer that you're meeting doesn't doesn't haven't even grown it
or didn't grow it, and they don't know what it's
laced with, or fentanyl or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
So yeah, we've got it right there. Mitchell, thank you
very much for bringing up those points. Ryan Neurs, your thoughts.
Speaker 9 (45:55):
Yeah, I mean, I think as ken had said earlier,
the fact is that no matter how legal we make it,
if it's federally legal or not, the black market is
not going to die.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
You know, it's just not.
Speaker 9 (46:06):
I mean, you know, when I was out in California,
I was hanging out in the hills with you know,
these cultivators, and you know, you go to these towns
and you think it's going to be peaceful hippies, and
it was actually kind of intense. I mean, it was
like hippies with guns and they were taken over the
side of a mountain, and they were giving part of
their weed to to the dispensaries, and then they were
giving making most of their money by transporting it across
(46:28):
state lines to places where they could sell it for
a lot more. And so the black market's not going
to go away.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
That's the you know, I think.
Speaker 9 (46:35):
I agree in general, like regulate it, own it, you know,
that's what I was saying. I just think that the
black market, the gray market, is not really going to
completely die. We might get rid of like cartel, you know,
marijuana coming from Mexico, but but there's still going to
be this issue, and there's going to be people buying
drugs from their drug dealer, I have to say.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
And we have more calls. Unfortunately we don't have time
to get to them now, but people can leave messages
and and we will listen to them and we'll get
them on the show some of them next week. But
two takeaways for me from this hour. Number one is
thinking about the packaging of edibles and that indeed, you know,
they probably shouldn't be colorful in all of that for
(47:15):
for younger people. And number two, the potency issue I
think is really important it's it's surprising to me that
more states haven't actually started regulating the potency of marijuana,
especially as you're seeing people go into the hospital with problems.
Now we have time for a quiz tolliver for our guests.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Absolutely, okay, just jump in when you got it. Fellas.
The question is which state has the most dispensaries per capita?
Is it Oklahoma, California, Michigan.
Speaker 8 (47:40):
Or New York?
Speaker 1 (47:42):
And he guesses Ryan or Ken.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Im, that's hard.
Speaker 9 (47:45):
I'm gonna go with Michigan just on the per capita basis.
By that's a that's a that's a stumber.
Speaker 13 (47:51):
Ken.
Speaker 8 (47:51):
Yeah, I'm in, I'm in, I go. I go with
Ryan's answer.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
How's that you're both wrong?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
I think yeah, it's Oklahoma, Oklahoma and a shot per capita.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Very surprising. Well, I want to thank I want to
thank you both. Ryan a quiz. Well, it's a surprise.
You didn't know that Bob Marley was going to show
up at the show either. Kent Rana, who is charff
Pharmacology at Penn State University and the director of the
Medical Marijuana Research Center, and Ryan Ner is a journalist
and author of the book Marijuana America. Thanks so much
(48:23):
to both of you.
Speaker 8 (48:25):
Thank thanks for having us. It's been great fun.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And Tolliver, what do we have on tap for next
week's show?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
All Right, So, I know everyone wants to forget that
we just went through once in this century pandemic, but
in many cases we are still living in the shadow
of it. So we're asking, are you still feeling the
effects of the COVID pandemic? That could be the increased
cost of everything, how you work, your health, what COVID
has done to your relationships or your life in general.
You can call us at eight four four four six
four three three five three, are right in at Listen
(48:51):
to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
It's going to be a really interesting show as well.
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by Joe Anne Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. We also want to say thanks
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the more than four
(49:16):
hundred and ten public radio stations that are making it
possible for people across the country to listen to the
middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!