September 11, 2024 • 50 mins
On this special edition of The Middle we're asking you about your thoughts on first presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. We're joined by longtime anchor and journalist Katie Couric, and Zoe Clark, political director at Michigan Public. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #debate #Trump #Harris #election #2024
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen to Themiddle
dot com. Welcome to the Middle of Jeremy Hobson, joined
(00:21):
as always by our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
That debate was quite different from the last one.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
It was very different. My neighbors were screen and my
Twitter was going off. It was like a football game.
Why it was very different.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, if you look back to previous elections, there used
to be three presidential debates. It all happened in the
last couple months before election day. This year, of course,
totally different. President Biden decided to set up two debates,
the first one being in June. His performance in that
debate was so bad that he dropped out of the race.
The debate tonight was the second one he set up
and was the first and maybe only debate between former
(00:56):
President Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris. So we want
to know what are your thoughts after watching and listening
to tonight's debate. Has it solidified your choice in this election,
or has it changed your views about the candidates?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four and three three
five three, or you can write to us that listen
to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
The phones are already lighting up before we get to them.
Last week, we wanted to hear from young voters, and
we did a whole show full of them, people under
thirty or so. Here's some of the voicemails we got
after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
My name is Susan. I am eighteen years old and
I currently live in Columbia, South Carolina.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
My name is Walker. I'm twenty five. I live in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 6 (01:39):
My name is Zelda and I'm calling from the Denver
metro area and I'm twenty five.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
My name's Kyu. I'm from Palatine, Illinois.
Speaker 8 (01:47):
And what I most worry about this whole conflation of
the idea of wokeness and all the stuff that the
right tries to do to dehumanize the left.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I hear a lot about young people not to vote.
That's very discouraging. So much of our lives or ahead
of us, there's a lot of things that can be
impacted by politics.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
I'm interested in affordable housing. I would love legislation stopping
corporations from buying up starter homes so we don't have
to rent the rest of our lives.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
I think some of the biggest issues are gone violence.
I've never been in school without knowing an active shooter drill,
and I think that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear
that full episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts,
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
So now to our topic for this hour, your reaction
to the first debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.
Tolliver the number again, please.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three, or you can
write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Let's meet our panel joining us longtime journalist, anchor and
co founder of Katie Kirk Media, Katie Kirk is with
us on the Middle. Katiekirk, Welcome, Thank you so much
for being here.
Speaker 9 (03:00):
Thank you for having me excited to excited for this
conversation and hear the feedback from your listeners.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's always interesting to hear what they have to say.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
And Zoe Clark is also with US political director at
Michigan Public and of course the very important swing state
of Michigan.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Zoe, great to have you back as well.
Speaker 10 (03:17):
Hey Jeremy, Hey Katie.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, and before we get to the calls, let me
hear from each of you. Katie Kirk, what stood out
to you in this debate?
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Well, you know, debates are very performative, but I thought
this was surprisingly substantive. I think they really hit a
wide range of issues. I do think the moderators did
a terrific job with their whole personas. I think they
were calm and forceful. I think they did correct the
record on a couple of occasions, which I really appreciated.
(03:49):
I've been extremely frustrated with some of the comments that
president former President Trump has made about abortions and abortions
after birth, the crazy claims that he's made, and Lindsey
Davis appropriately corrected that. The other thing about Springfield, Ohio
and Haitian migrants eating animals and pets has been making
(04:11):
the rounds on social media the last day or two,
retweeted by jd Vance without any proof or evidence of that,
and you know, just a classic case of how disinformation
is you know, ricochets around the Internet. So I thought
that Kamala Harris clearly did a better job at this debate.
(04:32):
I think her demeanor was excellent. I thought she was cool,
calm and collected, and he had his knickers in a twist,
as my mom might say. And I think she had
a solid command of the facts, and I think he
sort of was sputtering and kind of losing his cool
on a number of occasions. So in terms of just performance,
(04:54):
I think she won. And in substance, I think she
did a better job as well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
A point in the debate when he kind of started
yelling and he sort of never stopped yelling after that point.
Zoe Clark, your thoughts on the.
Speaker 10 (05:07):
Debate, Yeah, there was one point where it definitely veered
into that like uncle at the Thanksgiving table vibes. I mean,
I think Katie said it beautifully, unsurprisingly right, and we
were all sort of holding our breaths for this debate,
particularly after sort of the nationwide that we witnessed over
(05:27):
earlier this summer. I think a lot of folks were
really curious about what we were going.
Speaker 9 (05:31):
To see tonight.
Speaker 10 (05:32):
I think Kamala Harris and Donald Trump were very curious
about what they were going to see tonight. Let's remember
this is the first time the two of them have met,
you know, and being within six feet of each other.
Speaker 9 (05:44):
Before. I thought it was I thought it was a
baller move, by the way, for her to walk over
and shake his hand. But I did think it was
a little weird for her to say, Kamala Harris like, really,
no shit for lock. I mean, I thought that I
wish he had just.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Said, Jadi, this is on broadcast radio, to be careful with.
Speaker 10 (06:01):
Sorry, I'm used to doing all lives, Jeremy, bring it on,
Katie Kirk living up Wow Radio after dark.
Speaker 9 (06:09):
The next thing, I'm going to talk about schweaty balls.
You knows, boy, oh.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Boy, let's go uh kind of not even gonna go there.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Let let let's let's actually go to a call.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Uh and and hopefully we won't have to use the
dump button on the delay. Here you be is with
us from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You be welcome to the middle. What did you think
of the debate?
Speaker 11 (06:32):
I was so proud of Kamala Harris for just going
in guns blazing, did not know she was a gun owner.
Proud of her for that. Wouldn't have expected that. But
it just goes to show that she's a woman who
doesn't want to be but she she's the one who
defines herself no one else. I was actually surprised that
Trump didn't make any more more demeaning marks about her.
(06:56):
I'm an immigrant for Madagascar. I'm driving people to the
pool on November fifth, and so I'm really for Kamala
and this this solidified it even more. Not allowed to
vote yet, but I brought my partner with me with me.
I brought my friend Emily, and we were really happy.
Speaker 12 (07:13):
To cheer her on.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
You'd be let me ask you, were you worried going
into this debate, especially after what happened in the last
one with President Biden.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Were you worried about watching?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Were you worried that Kamala Harris was going to slip
up in some way or lose the debate?
Speaker 13 (07:29):
Yes?
Speaker 11 (07:29):
I was. I was almost sick to my stomach. I
wanted to stand next to the balcony in case I
threw up. But she I think she did great. I
wasn't sure if she was going to be good at
extra poraneous talking, because the Republicans say that she's not
good at that. But I think she did a fantastic job.
I was worried because I Trump is just an unpleasant
(07:50):
person to listen to you. It's like whacked. My brain
turns to whack when I listened to him, and I
don't want that. So I was I was worried that
she might not be able to handle it, or she
was going to say something that wouldn't help. Very curious
to see what undecided voters are thinking of.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you'd be thank you very much for that. Called
Zoe Clark.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know, she brings up the fact that Kamala Harris
said she was a gun owner, and she said Tim
Wallas is a gun owner. You're in Michigan, a state
where gun owner shape is very important. Do you think
that that plays with undecided voters? Do they make their
decision because Kamala Harris says in this debate, by the way,
I'm a gun owner like you, I.
Speaker 10 (08:28):
Would love to talk to that person who suddenly decides
right that that's suddenly going to be the change that happens.
It was very clear that that was a line that
she was hoping to use and bring up in this debate.
Speaker 9 (08:39):
This is something I was surprised though, weren't you surprised
she said that. I was like, oh, WHOA, say what?
Speaker 10 (08:45):
And I'd also be curious to know when she bought,
you know, the gun. But look, I mean, this is
what all campaigns, these presidential campaigns, what we know right now.
This is an incredibly close election. It is going to
be one in inches, not yards, and so you are
going to you anything that you can, you know, and
this is some of the voters who in Michigan, in Pennsylvania,
(09:06):
in Wisconsin, who went to Trump right in sixteen, went
back to Biden in twenty who Kamala Harris needs to
win over now in twenty four.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Let's go to Daniel, who's in Kansas City, Missouri. Daniel,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
Go ahead, Hi, Jeremy, thank you so much for taking
my call. I'm calling from Kansas City, Missouri, as you said,
and I have two things if I might. They both
relate to how prepared these candidates are. And I don't
just mean prepared for the debate, but prepared for office.
(09:40):
I think Kamala Harris showed herself to be very very
prepared for office in offering multiple actual plans of action
that Donald Trump could not measure up to. He consistently
said in response to those that, well, we've got a
better plan. We've just got a better plan, and then
just off on some other tangents. And I think that's
(10:04):
very important that, you know, we can't elect someone who
just says oliman talks about other plans when the only
plan that we actually have for him is the Project
twenty five plans, that's all I think.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Which he claimed on the debate that he that he
knew nothing about Daniel. Let me just take that to
Katie Kirk. You know a lot of people said that
going into this debate, the thing Kamala Harris had to
do was define herself rather than let Donald Trump define her.
How do you think she did on that score for
people who didn't know much about.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
Her, I think she did really well. I think she
could have always had room for a little bit of improvement.
I think that, you know, she did have a challenging
job because she had to kind of tell about her life,
and I think that's what she did with the first
question about kind of contrasting her middle class upbringing she
was raised by a single mom. They bought for their
(10:56):
first house when she was in high school. I think
that was such a star comparison to obviously Donald Trump,
who Anne Richards would say, you know, he was born
with this Well she said of George W. Bush, he
was born with the silver foot in his mouth. But
Donald Trump obviously comes from an affluent family. So I
think she kind of was able to position herself as
(11:17):
an American who really actually fulfilled the American dream. And
I think with policy operating opportunity, economy was strong. She
did give some specifics. I still think people will be
looking for more and I hope she does more interviews
after this, well, Talliver.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
As you know, Donald Trump has now run for president
in the last three election cycles, and each time he's
had to debate a different candidate.
Speaker 14 (11:41):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Here's an exchange between him and the former Secretary of
State Hillary Clinton and one of the debates in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 15 (11:47):
Last time, at the first debate, we had millions of
people fact checking, so I expect we'll have millions more
fact checking, because you know, it is it's just awfully
good that someone with the the temperament of Donald Trump
is not in charge of the law in our country.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Because you'd be in jail. Secretary Clinton, nothing like that tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It's worth noting, Tolliver that Trump did not follow up
on that threat and actually jail Ylery Clinton when he
was when he was president. But we will be back
with more of your calls on the Middle. This is
the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in
the Middle is a national call in show. We are
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:33):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking for your reaction to the debate
between Vice President Harris and former President Trump. Tolliver, what
is the number of people to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us a Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media. I just posted a hot TikTok
go comment on it.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I'm here with journalists and anchor Katie Kirk of Katie
Kirk Media and Zoe Clark, political director at Michigan Public
And before we get back to the phones, Katie, Are
there any other big moments do you think like this
coming up in the presidential race or is this potentially
the last time there will be a poll moving event
like a presidential debate before November.
Speaker 9 (13:12):
Well, I can tell you what I think is a
poll moving event. You guys. That just happened. Taylor Swift
endorsed Kamala Harris and Tim Walls you know, where there
was a lot of questions about whether she would. She
put a lengthy post on Instagram which I saw just
before I joined you, and that has the potential to
(13:32):
move many many young people into the Kamala you know, Harris,
Tim Walls Camp.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Hmm. Interesting. I hadn't seen that because I was just
getting ready for this.
Speaker 9 (13:45):
But I know, Hey, I'll bring you all the breaking
news here, jaring me.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I'm still on the plot exactly, Zoe.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
You know, it does seem other than Taylor Swift's views
that voters are caring right now according to the polls
about the economy, democracy, immigration, reproductive rights, all those issues
came up in the debate. What are you hearing from
people in the crucial swing state of Michigan about what's
most important right now?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (14:08):
I mean it's to your point, it's really it's the economy,
it's inflation. Abortion has been very top of mind for
Michigan Anders. That is because our Democratic Governor Gretchen Whimer
has really been sort of a champion nationally of the issue,
and it was a constitutional ballot initiative just two years ago,
so very much on the top of the minds of voters.
I think Democrats really want to talk about abortion here
(14:31):
in the state and want to make the race be
about that. Donald Trump, as we saw tonight, or what
he was meant to do, really is try to make
it about the economy, try to make it about immigration
and crime and sort of tying the two together. But
it seemed that time and time during the debate he
wasn't quite able to do that, right, Like, that's what
we all heard. Know, He's going to bring it back
(14:51):
to the economy, and time and time again was goaded
into things about, you know, the size of his rallies.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
Right right, which I think was very smart on her part.
You know, she started saying, if you ever go to
a rally, people leave out of boredom. I mean, of course, should.
Speaker 10 (15:06):
I invite you to a rally?
Speaker 9 (15:08):
Right, yes, right? Exactly, and I think that made him crazy.
And I do think she had a very good comeback.
I knew she was going to do this on immigration. Yes,
obviously it's a very important issue. But this comprehensive immigration
reform bill that had been cobbled together, worked out for
more than six months, the most bipartisan effort I think
(15:32):
since Ronald Reagan. And Donald Trump did in fact tell
his supporters on Capitol Hill to scuttle that bill because
he did not want to give the Biden administration of victory.
And I thought she was a pretty effective That was
a pretty effective comeback to the immigration issues he was
pointing out. And I'm not sure that many Americans really
realize this.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Let's go to.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Marie, who's in Los Angeles. Marie, what did you think
of the debate?
Speaker 16 (15:59):
Hi, thanks for having me on. My comment is mostly
I thought Harris's.
Speaker 13 (16:06):
Approach on to you know, the situation.
Speaker 16 (16:09):
In Israel and UH was unnecessary the way that she
awarded that. Basically, you know, she's had a pretty staunch
support of Israel, and I do know some people you
know at l A, of course, I have some people
who are a bit more on the farther left side,
and that has been a hot button uh topic or
(16:31):
issue for them is acknowledging that, of course with that
situation that you know, uh, having such staunch support is
not exactly the best thing if these methods are you know,
kind of egregious.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And but you were you were satisfied with Harris's response
on that issue.
Speaker 17 (16:52):
You're saying, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 16 (16:55):
I think I I personally saying, uh that obviously we
need to for Palestinians, we need to uh, you know,
give them their ability to live a I'm not coming
across very well with us but driving at the moment too.
(17:17):
But I think it might not be efficient for a
lot of people who are sufficient response for a lot
of people who are really farther on that issue.
Speaker 11 (17:27):
But for me, I thought it was a good.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Okay, Marie, thank you, and just be careful driving while
while calling in Tolliver. As you remember, there was one
person who called it and got pulled over right in.
Speaker 14 (17:37):
The right a legend.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We don't we we're not paying tickets here.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So Zoe, what about the issue though, of Gaza, because
that was that was that is one that Harris continues
to have to deal with big factions of the Democratic
Party that are very upset with the way that the
War UH is being handled by the United States, even
though the US isn't actively fighting in it, but obviously
our close relationship with Israel means that the US has
(18:03):
a lot of sway in what does end up occurring.
Speaker 10 (18:06):
Yes, and this is something that she is going to
have to continue to talk about and will be asked about.
And in Michigan, as we talked about previously, in February,
when there was the presidential primary, we saw more than
one hundred thousand voters vote for uncommitted, not for Joe Biden,
(18:26):
but uncommitted on the Democratic primary ballot here in the state.
And when you consider that Hillary Clinton, for instance, lost
Michigan by just under eleven thousand votes in two sixteen,
one hundred thousand votes is meaningful. Outside of Detroit, we
have the largest Arab American population. And so this is
(18:49):
a message that Kamala Harris needs to figure out, not
on her own. Democrats in general right now are really
grappling with this, and I think we're going to continue
to see protests. Apparently tonight there were protests Tim Walls
speaking when Kamala Harris and Tim Walls Hold held their
first rally here in Michigan. There were protesters during that rally,
(19:10):
and this is something that is going to continue to
be part of the conversation in Michigan and across the country.
Speaker 9 (19:15):
Certainly it's been tough, though, you know, she has to
thread that needle and she has to obviously stand by
Israel a very important US ally. Her husband, Doug im Hoff,
is Jewish and has been speaking about anti Semitism. And
I think, you know, what is difficult as people are
having a challenging time thinking dialectically about this situation, and
(19:38):
I think when I interviewed her in January, she was
very careful to weigh her words. So I think, you know,
it's a very tricky situation, and she doesn't want to
come out too strongly for either adversaries in this war,
or come out too strongly for Israel, too strongly for
the Palestinians. So I think I think she's she's doing
(20:01):
a pretty good job of that, even though obviously both
extreme both sides want her to.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Obviously, we've heard from a number of listeners now about
what Harris did. Well, what if you're on the Trump
side right now, what do you look at in this
debate and say he did well on that or is
there something that that they're pointing to, because I have
seen many on his side would say right now that
(20:28):
they didn't like the moderators. They thought the moderators were
ganging up on him.
Speaker 9 (20:33):
Well, I think the translation when you don't like the moderators,
that means your guy didn't do very well. He's got
a lot more airtime, you know, quite frankly than Kamala Harris.
I think the moderators were strong and did a good job.
And I think that some of Donald Trump's supporters were
worried about his performance, so they you know that you
blame the messenger. I've seen that playbook before, so I
(20:56):
think that. You know, I thought he he's seen measured
at first, but I thought I think as the debate
went on, he became less coherent and less clear thinking
in his arguments. I'm trying to think of where I
thought he was strong. I thought he was snarky when
(21:17):
he said to her, I'm speaking. Does that sound familiar
because that's what she said during one of her past debates.
So I don't know, Zoe, was there a moment where
he thought Donald Trump really did shine.
Speaker 10 (21:30):
You know, it's such a good question, and right after
the debate, I was trying to think about exactly that moment,
and what I really think happened is he shined for
his base, right, like, for folks who are wanting Donald
Trump to be Donald Trump, that base voter. He did that.
But what we know is Donald Trump is a really
(21:51):
low ceiling in terms of like who's going to turn
out and vote, so he can speak to his base
all he wants. But when you're talking about eating dogs
in a president debate, I don't necessarily know that you're
getting independent voters suddenly going gosh. I wasn't sure, but
this has really changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Tolliver a lot coming in online. Why don't you give
us a few of the messages?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, we got some great ones. Ethan and West, Los
Angeles says the debate was exciting and frustrating. Harris took
a little while to warm up and then she was terrific,
and yet I was still frustrated at the craziness of
Trump and some of her pandering. Marilyn and Birmingham, Mississippi,
says Kamala Harris had strong good points. However, her delivery
was frustrating. Her voice was tearful at times, and this
was worrying. She needs to strengthen her delivery, especially if
(22:35):
there should be a second debate. Interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Interesting, Yeah, let's go to Steve, who's in Saint Louis, Missouri.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Steve, welcome to the middle. What did you think of
the debate?
Speaker 18 (22:47):
Thank you? Well? I think Trump was vintage Trump. I mean,
this is a guy who went to the Joseph Devils
school of campaigning. Repeat the enough and eventually the lie
becomes the truth. And that's what I'm so tired of.
I think he is he has ruined our standing in
(23:10):
the world. I yeah, and I'm pretty conservative. I mean
I voted for Reagan, both Bushes and for gosh'sn Inscat McCain.
But I'm voting for Kamala Harris. So I'm glad. I
got on. Glad I got to mention it. My politics
are conservative. So for the Republicans out there listening are ambivalent.
(23:33):
Trump has no business being president.
Speaker 12 (23:36):
We need someone do your do your conservative friends there
in Saint Louis do they agree with you or are
they sticking with Trump?
Speaker 18 (23:50):
Some of them quietly will agree. They don't like to
speak too loudly for some reason. That's just kind of
but but yes, this is Saint Louis. I mean, you know,
we kind of lived for the last decade. We've lived
intention about a lot of things. So people are people
kind of tread tread lightly. But I think a lot
(24:11):
of conservative folks, a lot of Republicans, people I've known
for years, will be voting for Kamala Harris, because I
just can't stand that the attitude with him of you know,
you know, just just listen to what I'm saying, Just
believe what I'm telling you, do what I say, you know,
(24:31):
and he just I do not. The bottom line is this,
I do not trust him. I trust her. She's been
a prosecutor, she's an attorney. She's well educated, and she
has come up through. She's come up through, She's worked
hard and come up through the ranks. But when you
(24:51):
hear someone talk about Haitian's eating dogs and doctors a
lying babies to die. I mean the guy, you know,
I was waiting for him to say that Kamala Harris's husband,
he has worns in a tale, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Okay, see, I think We've got it there. Thank you
very much for that. Katie Couric, do you think that
Kamala Harris was trying to speak to independence conservatives tonight
or just everybody? I mean, did it seem like she
was going after a particular group.
Speaker 9 (25:22):
I think she was just trying to define her policy
a little bit more. And I think she was obviously
going for women. There's a huge gender gap already of
I think thirteen points or something, and I think obviously
suburban women who care deeply about reproductive rights, I think
(25:43):
she was addressing them, particularly when she told those personal
stories about women dealing with you not having the access
to healthcare in various states and having to fly other places.
And she has been working very hard, I think, ever
since Roe was overturned as the point person on reproductive
(26:05):
rights for the Biben administration. So I think she was
really reinforcing those bona fides, as they say. And but
I think she was trying to Obviously she wants to
reach out to independence and undecided voters as well, and
I think she wanted to seem like she was the
adult in the room.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Let's go to Scott, who is in west Haven, Connecticut. Scott,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Scott, are you there,
maybe not. Okay, how about it hopefully pulling No, it's
late in West Haven, Connecticut. Let's try Jessica in Northridge, California. Jessica,
(26:45):
what did you think.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Of the debate?
Speaker 13 (26:48):
Well, it was what really struck me was the different
ways in which the two candidates characterized our country. And
if you recall, during his presidency, Trump characterize some countries
that immigrants came from as as whole countries, that that
was a big specific thing, and now he's presenting our
country in exactly the same way. According to him, everyone's
(27:11):
laughing at us, and we're going to hell and blah
blah blah blah blah. Right, And I mean, who wants
to hear that about our country? I mean, it's such
an it's such a negative message. It's gloom, it's doom,
it's fearful. Whereas Harris, on the other hand, much more
upbeat and optimistic about our future under her leadership. And
(27:31):
that just sets up this. I mean, I think that's
what a true leader does. The true leader says, you know,
follow me to a brighter future. But we have so
much to build on that is already really good about
this country. And I think that that is kind of
her approach, and I think it's a really smart one
that certainly struck me as being much more positive, much
(27:55):
more inspirational, really right, yeah, inspirational. And I think that
that was really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Thank you Jessica for that.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And Zoe Clark did seem like there were two very
different visions of the I mean, we know there are
two very different visions of the country from these candidates.
Speaker 10 (28:13):
And you saw that again tonight. And I mean, I
think to Jessica's point, this is something that the campaign
since you know January or excuse me, since July twenty first,
there are no days during election twenty twenty four, has
been trying to do right, which this is a campaign
about optimism and looking forward. I mean, even just that
we're not going back is a very stark message.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Which she did use in the debate, which has been
like a campaign slogan for her, and she actually did get.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
It in there a few times.
Speaker 9 (28:40):
Yeah, exactly. I think I think this is an extension
of what you saw at the convention. You heard the
word joy repeatedly at the convention, and I think who
whoever orchestrated that and tried to give it this quote
unquote vibe is extending it obviously throughout the campaign, and
I think you can trast that with Trump's very dystopian view.
(29:01):
I don't know if you remember his inauguriala dress in
twenty sixteen. It was very dark and mena Carney and
very very right, very negative, and I think that is
an extreme contrast with the way that Democrats are trying
to portray their vision for the future.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Katie, just briefly, do you think that, coming off of
this debate, that Kamala Harris is going to go out
and do some more interviews with members of the media,
because she's only done one since the launch of her
campaign so far.
Speaker 9 (29:32):
Yeah, and I think she did a radio interview as well, Yes, right,
But yeah, I hope she does. You know. I think
it's a mixed bag, and I think in the current
media environment, Jeremy people can twist and distort anything people say,
so I think she's fearful of that. But I really
think she needs to do and I hope she does.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeh, Tolliver, I know this is going to be hard,
but can you play us a clip from the last
debate between President Biden and former President Trump?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Oh, as long as it's not about golf, please, I
got you. Yeah, a warning this clip might make some
listeners squeamish and uncomfortable.
Speaker 19 (30:08):
Make sure that all those things we need to do, childcare, eldercare,
making sure that we continue to suppent stems in our
healthcare system, making sure that we're able to make every
single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to
do with the with the COVID, I excuse me, with
dealing with everything we have to do with Look, if
(30:34):
we finally beat medicare.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Thank you, President Biden. Beat medicare. That was that was yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
By the way, Tolliver, I think it's worth reminding our
listeners that if they want to support us, there are
two ways they can do that. Number one is you
can make a tax deductible contribution to the Middle. You
can go to listen to the Middle dot com and
do that in any amount. There's somebody who gives ten
dollars every month.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
We love that. It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And the second thing you could do as you can
rate this podcast with five stars wherever you listen to
your podcast that it's helpful as well.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
We'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hopson.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
We're asking you this hour for your thoughts on the
presidential debate between Vice President Harris and former President Trump.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
You can call us at eight.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. You can also reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
Michigan Public Political Director Zoe Clark and journalists and anchor
Katie Couric, co founder of Katie Couric Media.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
And let's get right back to the phones. And Patrick
is in Chicago. Hi, Patrick, go ahead.
Speaker 20 (31:38):
Yeah, Hello, I just wanted to make the observation. I
don't think I don't think it was talked about much.
But as far as listening a podcast about the Middle,
you know, I think the average American would want to
know more about Donald Trump's suggestion for a twenty percent tariff.
I think one of the previous commentaris you know, mentioned
(32:00):
that Donald Trump didn't have a lot of plans, and
that was one of his most clear plans that he
had laid forth. You know, this tariff that he plans
to put on all products, you know, across the board.
And I don't think it was you know, another uh,
you know, you mentioned that some of these individuals on
(32:20):
the right are saying that that the moderates were teaming
up on Trump. I don't know if I know, the
question about the tariffs was sounded pretty harsh, but I
do think that it's it's not exactly ganging up on,
you know, Donald Trump to say that, you know, a
twenty percent tariff across the board was being enormous raised, right,
(32:41):
and costs for Americans. I mean, those are always passed
on to the consumer, always like, in no way ever
will that be put on the will other countries pay
for that? I just thought that that could have been
talked about more in the debate. You know, we we
always hear about we need to talk about the economy,
and I just kind of wish we had a talked
about that a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, Patrick, thank you very much for that. Zoe.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
You know, it's funny that the old line, it's the
economy stupid, the James Carville line it is usually I mean,
that is always the issue that is the most important
one to voters. And obviously for Patrick, the tariff's idea
and the Trump tariffs, a lot of them, As he said,
Biden has kept a lot of the tariffs in place
from his administration, but now he wants to go even
(33:24):
further and really double down.
Speaker 10 (33:26):
Yeah, and I mean to each of these things. I mean,
this is what happens when you have ninety minutes, right,
and you want to talk about the Afghanistan withdrawal, you
want to talk about climate change. I mean, there was
so many topics to get to, but any one of
these issues could have been ninety minutes unto themselves. Which
is why Katie I think was talking earlier about the
importance of interviews to be able to talk to candidates.
(33:47):
So it's not just these ninety minutes where you know
you're going through fifteen different subjects. But to the point,
particularly about twenty percent tariffs, exactly, it feels a little
like just you know, saying, well, Mexico's going to pay
for the wall, right, that you just throw these things
out and there's not necessarily time to really dig in.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
But there was a race. I was just going to say, Zoe,
there was a recent headline I think that said in
the New York Times for Trump, the are tariffs are
the solution to almost any problem. So I think they
here if people were having a drinking game, and tariffs
was one of the words. They would be really I'm
not going to say a dirty word, but you can't
(34:26):
do that on public Greek. But after they would be
they would be intoxicated.
Speaker 10 (34:32):
Right now, No, And it was about childcare, right, It
was about childcare and going to tariffs. And this is
exactly to your point, I mean, and this is what
Trump has been very good at since twenty fifteen, and
really even before that. It is figuring out one or
two words and to just continue to use them until
they sort of seem to make sense in our collective consciousness.
(34:54):
But to your point, again, twenty percent tariffs. And this
was another point where the Vice presid needed him where
she she brought up Wharton School, right and the economists there,
which I thought was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Which it was because he always talks about having gone
to Wharton School, and I knew that was he was.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
She was trying to go to him. There.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Let's go to David, who's in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, a swing state,
the state where the debate happened.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
David, what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 9 (35:22):
Hi?
Speaker 8 (35:22):
There, I thought the debate kind of went how I
figured it would go, which would be Donald Trump would
sound like a crazy old man who lives in conspiracy
theories in the political fringes that no one takes seriously,
and Kamala Harris would appear like the attorney general she
(35:45):
was for California. He wasn't able to answer basic questions
numerous times, he was asked twice a yes or no
question when it came to Ukraine, and went on a
tangent that didn't do anything. And I think Kamala parents
and her debate team were very smart, and they knew
how to play into his emotions by insulting the rally sizes,
(36:11):
people leaving his rallies early. They played into his need
to always be seen as this masculine man. And yet
she appeared controlled, regimented, and educated to not play into
conservative Republican narratives of her being an angry black woman
or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
There you go, Katie Kurk, let me ask you about that.
You know, they they both prepared in their own way,
uh Trump and Harris, and he famously doesn't like to
really do debate prep and it has worked for him
in the past many times, but it didn't seem like
it worked for him this time, because she was very
(36:58):
prepared on every single subject that that was thrown at her.
Speaker 9 (37:01):
Yeah, I mean I think that I think he has
a much more free wheeling style, which I think appeals
to a lot of his supporters and just kind of
I think they one of the things they appreciate about
Donald Trump is that he is unconventional and they like
when I think he goes off the rails a bit,
(37:24):
that he doesn't sort of follow the prescriptive sort of
idea of how someone should behave, how they should conduct themselves.
But I think it worked against him in this case
because she did seem in such command of the facts,
in command of policy. I thought she could have done
(37:47):
a little bit better job when Lindsey Davis asked her
about her changing positions on things like fracking, and she
ticked off a few. She addressed her changing views on fracking,
but there were a number of other things, and I
think she could have been more authentic. Instead of going
back to her background as a middle class family, she
(38:08):
could have addressed some of these ways her views have evolved.
And I think she could have said, hey, listen, jd
Vance said, you were you know, tantamount to Hitler in
twenty sixteen. Obviously his views evolved. I thought that would
have been a good opportunity for her to talk about
(38:28):
JD Vance and some of the things he said in
the past about Trump.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Well, she did say.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
At one point, you know, she was talking about whether
there would be guardrails on a second Trump term, and
she said J. D Vance is not going to stop you,
which I thought was very interesting. Let's go to Jesse,
who's in Philadelphia. Jesse, what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 21 (38:50):
I just felt like it was somewhat biased, and even
being as someone who's Democratic leaning, but I do consider
myself a moderate in some senses, it just seemed like
it was biased, leaning towards Kamala and it just wasn't
super a super convincing win because of that.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
What do you mean by that? What felt bias to you?
Speaker 21 (39:11):
It just it felt like some of the questions were
kind of assaftballs that were easy for Kamlain, and obviously
Trump should have been able to answer those easily, but
just because he was so riled up and unruly towards
the end of the debate and not even cohering, he
couldn't answer those questions in a sensible manner, which it
felt like kind of lost him trying to gain the
(39:34):
moderate com this.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So do you think that what you saw tonight is
going to affect your vote this November?
Speaker 21 (39:42):
No, ways, there's no shot. I think once Trump started
talking about people eating dogs and cats, I think that's
when that's when I maybe went all the way for Kamala.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I have to say, interesting, interesting, Jesse, thank you very
much for that.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
What do you think about that, Katie Kirk?
Speaker 9 (40:01):
I mean, it's interesting. I wish he was still on
the phone because I would have liked to have heard
from him what questions or what direction the moderators should
have been taking this debate that would have seemed less
biased toward Pamala Harris, because I thought they were pretty
even handed. I think because Donald Trump seemed to be floundering,
(40:27):
that wasn't necessarily the moderator's fault. And again, you know,
it's very easy to blame the messenger. I thought they
did a good job. I have to say, I think
they they've been the best moderators that I've seen in
a long time.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
And Clark, We're going to get TV ratings information in
the coming days about how many people watch this on TV,
but of course so many people are going to consume
it just in little clips on social media.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
What do you think is going to be the clip
that stands out.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
From the debate that'll just be going everywhere in the
next twenty four hours.
Speaker 10 (41:03):
Oh my goodness. Another thing I was thinking to myself.
I mean, I think the TikTok sort of vibe brat
summer election is going to be very much like the
Kamala Harris faces.
Speaker 9 (41:14):
There were all life go too right.
Speaker 10 (41:16):
Okay, So there's a lot of split screens if you
are watching it, and there are plenty of people who
just listened on public radio, which is amazing too, so
for folks who didn't see it, a lot of split
screens where Trump is not looking furious but maybe disgruntled
it's a better word, and says something, and Harris is
just sort of staring at him right, sometimes smiling, sometimes
(41:39):
even almost laughing it off a little bit.
Speaker 9 (41:41):
And I think I thought it she did. There were
a couple moments that you did feel that she was
suppressing a laugh right when when he was saying some things.
But also I think she sort of perfected the bemused
slightly disdainful, you know, air of like wait what yeah.
Speaker 10 (42:03):
And then I think, I mean a line that's already
kind of going viral too. Is that what you got
fired by? You know, eighty one million voters? And it's
obvious that you're still processing that. I mean, obviously someone
came up with that line ahead of time, and that's
going to continue to go.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you really wanted to continue with it, if you
really want to continue with the TikTok theme, you would
have said that she looked demure, because that's the one
that's what everybody says over Tolliver knows what I'm talking about. Okay,
let's go to Doug. Let's go to Doug in Newport Richie, Florida. Doug,
what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 12 (42:37):
Oh?
Speaker 22 (42:37):
Boy, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 14 (42:39):
I was.
Speaker 22 (42:39):
I was so nervous going into it because after seeing
the very first debate, I didn't know how she would
hold up under the scrutiny that our prior, our crient
president went through. And I thought that some very strong
points are made by her and not much in the
way of anything new hearing from the former president.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
What what stood out to you?
Speaker 1 (43:02):
What was the what what do you think was what's
the moment you're gonna remember or tell people about tomorrow
from this debate?
Speaker 17 (43:07):
Well, would you just look at the two candidates side
by side. There's such a contrast between this bright, vibrant,
engaged looking over at her opponent and youthful and then
him hunched over his thing, never really ever looking up
and just mumbling and going on and on and ranting.
Speaker 22 (43:26):
Those are that's what things out in my mind, the.
Speaker 7 (43:29):
Impression of the two different candidates.
Speaker 22 (43:30):
It's such an extreme.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, just as we were just talking about, Doug, thank
you for that.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
And guess what I have Scott back from West Haven,
Connecticut this time for real, Scott go ahead takes what
you thought of the debate?
Speaker 9 (43:44):
Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 14 (43:46):
I don't care what Jaelow Swift says. Okay, she's distinctive music.
But besides that, I'm a fan of Harris. Anyways, I
thought it was a non event to the debate. I thought,
if everybody wants it was probably Kamila Harris, but with
smirky and and calculated cheap shots and below the bellt
type of things like a snake in the grass. But
(44:08):
Trump did not articulate his points, and uh, Camille Harris,
she has a plan, but what is it? I don't
know what it is, you know. And uh, but I
mean a lot of things went on in that debate,
but I think, uh it it didn't wouldn't sway my
vote either way. I'm a liberal from Massachusetts basically, and uh,
you know, I'm looking for that type of a candidate,
(44:29):
but I didn't. That was another event for me watching that, Uh,
that debate.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
So so what are you gonna do this? What are
you gonna do this November? Scott?
Speaker 14 (44:38):
Uh, probably go up to New Hampshire or something like
that and enjoy the joy, the skiing. I know, I
know what you're saying, is that is that you know?
I don't know. I'm still I'm still up in the
air about who to vote for.
Speaker 18 (44:52):
Uh.
Speaker 14 (44:53):
You know, prosecutors take cheap shots like that at people,
you know. I you know, I've been in a jury's
and I've been in trials. I'm an attorney. I just
didn't nothing didn't nothing work for me there on that debate.
I just but.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Scott, can I ask you questions? Scott? Did you did
you feel like Donald Trump took some cheap shots as well?
I mean, what did you think about.
Speaker 14 (45:14):
That's right from the direction, that's that's what he does,
that's what definite from that's how he became president before.
But you know, I just didn't think he was as prepared,
but came in she was. She was sixty years in
ice media isolation and prepare for this debate, you know.
Speaker 9 (45:30):
And uh so, you know, I think she's been campaigning
pretty I don't think she's been in isolation. I agree,
she hasn't done many interviews, but she's been out on
the campaign trail, going to a lot of.
Speaker 14 (45:42):
Areas and and they've been you know, presidents these days,
the president should be six years the term either learn
for two years and they campaign for two years. Nothing
gets done.
Speaker 9 (45:52):
But do you want it? Would you like to Scott?
Sorry to ask you one more question. I can't help it,
but would you like to see come? It's Kamala by
the way, everyone says Kamala and it's it's like it's
like Kama law. But anyway, would you like to see her?
Would you like to see her do more interviews and
(46:13):
learn more about her policy positions? Would that be helpful
to you in terms.
Speaker 14 (46:18):
Of deciding it would be I'd love the debate. Listen.
I was going to vote for Michelle Obama, Okay, trust me,
but I would love to see you get some her
articulate her positions more.
Speaker 16 (46:30):
Uh.
Speaker 14 (46:30):
You know, I know what the whole thing with China
and is everything going on in me that the corpora
jacks is uh chinawn American it's three five percent. It's
just it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But yeah, thank you, Listen.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I'm so glad that we I'm glad that we got
you on the show. I really do appreciate your call.
I appreciate it. Uh and uh, Tolliver. Just before we
wrap this up, by the way, people can leave messages
if they didn't get through.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
But this is just so fun. I hope we can
talk some more. Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well, Katie, I actually I had a question that I
was saving for you for the very end because I
did notice that it is Tuesday, September tenth, and it
was twenty three years ago tomorrow that you were one
of the people who broke the news to the country
that the World Trade Center had been attacked as nine
to eleven started, And I just wondered, as you watched
(47:21):
this debate this evening, do you see any connection between
that very monumental moment in our country's history and where
we are right now in our politics.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
Gosh, you know, I don't necessarily think they're connected. Obviously,
that was the end of innocence many ways for the
United States as we realized the threat of terrorism. But
in terms of our political calculus and system and attitudes
and polarization, I'm not sure that is connected in any way,
(47:53):
because if you remember how unified the country was after that,
and how support if people were of Rudy Giuliani and
George W. Bush, and how we all banded together as Americans,
and I you know, it was the most horrific event,
but I was so proud of our country and how
(48:14):
we came together and supported each other, and whether you
were a blue state or a red state, it didn't matter.
And you know, I'm going to be thinking of all
those families I got to know tomorrow. And it's been
a beautiful week in New York City, cerulyum, blue skies,
cool temperatures, just like it was on that terrible day
(48:37):
in two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Well, that is where we have to leave it this hour.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I want to thank my guests, Katie curic Co founder
of Katie Kirk Media, and Michigan Public political director Zoe Clark.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Thank you both so much for being on.
Speaker 9 (48:51):
It was really fun. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Thanks Jeremy, and we'll be back later this week.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Asking you whether or not media and social media companies
like and Meta have too much power in this election, Tolliver,
how can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (49:04):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle,
or you can write to us on social media and
give them even more power.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnook Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, and John Barth. Our
intern is Anika Deshler. Our technical director is Jason Kroft.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Thanks to the more than four hundred and ten public
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to listen to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
If you didn't get through, leave us a message.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you later
this week.
Speaker 19 (50:01):
Mouss
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen to Themiddle
dot com. Welcome to the Middle of Jeremy Hobson, joined
(00:21):
as always by our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
That debate was quite different from the last one.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
It was very different. My neighbors were screen and my
Twitter was going off. It was like a football game.
Why it was very different.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, if you look back to previous elections, there used
to be three presidential debates. It all happened in the
last couple months before election day. This year, of course,
totally different. President Biden decided to set up two debates,
the first one being in June. His performance in that
debate was so bad that he dropped out of the race.
The debate tonight was the second one he set up
and was the first and maybe only debate between former
(00:56):
President Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris. So we want
to know what are your thoughts after watching and listening
to tonight's debate. Has it solidified your choice in this election,
or has it changed your views about the candidates?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four and three three
five three, or you can write to us that listen
to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
The phones are already lighting up before we get to them.
Last week, we wanted to hear from young voters, and
we did a whole show full of them, people under
thirty or so. Here's some of the voicemails we got
after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
My name is Susan. I am eighteen years old and
I currently live in Columbia, South Carolina.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
My name is Walker. I'm twenty five. I live in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 6 (01:39):
My name is Zelda and I'm calling from the Denver
metro area and I'm twenty five.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
My name's Kyu. I'm from Palatine, Illinois.
Speaker 8 (01:47):
And what I most worry about this whole conflation of
the idea of wokeness and all the stuff that the
right tries to do to dehumanize the left.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I hear a lot about young people not to vote.
That's very discouraging. So much of our lives or ahead
of us, there's a lot of things that can be
impacted by politics.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
I'm interested in affordable housing. I would love legislation stopping
corporations from buying up starter homes so we don't have
to rent the rest of our lives.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
I think some of the biggest issues are gone violence.
I've never been in school without knowing an active shooter drill,
and I think that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear
that full episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts,
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
So now to our topic for this hour, your reaction
to the first debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.
Tolliver the number again, please.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three, or you can
write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Let's meet our panel joining us longtime journalist, anchor and
co founder of Katie Kirk Media, Katie Kirk is with
us on the Middle. Katiekirk, Welcome, Thank you so much
for being here.
Speaker 9 (03:00):
Thank you for having me excited to excited for this
conversation and hear the feedback from your listeners.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's always interesting to hear what they have to say.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
And Zoe Clark is also with US political director at
Michigan Public and of course the very important swing state
of Michigan.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Zoe, great to have you back as well.
Speaker 10 (03:17):
Hey Jeremy, Hey Katie.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, and before we get to the calls, let me
hear from each of you. Katie Kirk, what stood out
to you in this debate?
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Well, you know, debates are very performative, but I thought
this was surprisingly substantive. I think they really hit a
wide range of issues. I do think the moderators did
a terrific job with their whole personas. I think they
were calm and forceful. I think they did correct the
record on a couple of occasions, which I really appreciated.
(03:49):
I've been extremely frustrated with some of the comments that
president former President Trump has made about abortions and abortions
after birth, the crazy claims that he's made, and Lindsey
Davis appropriately corrected that. The other thing about Springfield, Ohio
and Haitian migrants eating animals and pets has been making
(04:11):
the rounds on social media the last day or two,
retweeted by jd Vance without any proof or evidence of that,
and you know, just a classic case of how disinformation
is you know, ricochets around the Internet. So I thought
that Kamala Harris clearly did a better job at this debate.
(04:32):
I think her demeanor was excellent. I thought she was cool,
calm and collected, and he had his knickers in a twist,
as my mom might say. And I think she had
a solid command of the facts, and I think he
sort of was sputtering and kind of losing his cool
on a number of occasions. So in terms of just performance,
(04:54):
I think she won. And in substance, I think she
did a better job as well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
A point in the debate when he kind of started
yelling and he sort of never stopped yelling after that point.
Zoe Clark, your thoughts on the.
Speaker 10 (05:07):
Debate, Yeah, there was one point where it definitely veered
into that like uncle at the Thanksgiving table vibes. I mean,
I think Katie said it beautifully, unsurprisingly right, and we
were all sort of holding our breaths for this debate,
particularly after sort of the nationwide that we witnessed over
(05:27):
earlier this summer. I think a lot of folks were
really curious about what we were going.
Speaker 9 (05:31):
To see tonight.
Speaker 10 (05:32):
I think Kamala Harris and Donald Trump were very curious
about what they were going to see tonight. Let's remember
this is the first time the two of them have met,
you know, and being within six feet of each other.
Speaker 9 (05:44):
Before. I thought it was I thought it was a
baller move, by the way, for her to walk over
and shake his hand. But I did think it was
a little weird for her to say, Kamala Harris like, really,
no shit for lock. I mean, I thought that I
wish he had just.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Said, Jadi, this is on broadcast radio, to be careful with.
Speaker 10 (06:01):
Sorry, I'm used to doing all lives, Jeremy, bring it on,
Katie Kirk living up Wow Radio after dark.
Speaker 9 (06:09):
The next thing, I'm going to talk about schweaty balls.
You knows, boy, oh.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Boy, let's go uh kind of not even gonna go there.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Let let let's let's actually go to a call.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Uh and and hopefully we won't have to use the
dump button on the delay. Here you be is with
us from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You be welcome to the middle. What did you think
of the debate?
Speaker 11 (06:32):
I was so proud of Kamala Harris for just going
in guns blazing, did not know she was a gun owner.
Proud of her for that. Wouldn't have expected that. But
it just goes to show that she's a woman who
doesn't want to be but she she's the one who
defines herself no one else. I was actually surprised that
Trump didn't make any more more demeaning marks about her.
(06:56):
I'm an immigrant for Madagascar. I'm driving people to the
pool on November fifth, and so I'm really for Kamala
and this this solidified it even more. Not allowed to
vote yet, but I brought my partner with me with me.
I brought my friend Emily, and we were really happy.
Speaker 12 (07:13):
To cheer her on.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
You'd be let me ask you, were you worried going
into this debate, especially after what happened in the last
one with President Biden.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Were you worried about watching?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Were you worried that Kamala Harris was going to slip
up in some way or lose the debate?
Speaker 13 (07:29):
Yes?
Speaker 11 (07:29):
I was. I was almost sick to my stomach. I
wanted to stand next to the balcony in case I
threw up. But she I think she did great. I
wasn't sure if she was going to be good at
extra poraneous talking, because the Republicans say that she's not
good at that. But I think she did a fantastic job.
I was worried because I Trump is just an unpleasant
(07:50):
person to listen to you. It's like whacked. My brain
turns to whack when I listened to him, and I
don't want that. So I was I was worried that
she might not be able to handle it, or she
was going to say something that wouldn't help. Very curious
to see what undecided voters are thinking of.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you'd be thank you very much for that. Called
Zoe Clark.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know, she brings up the fact that Kamala Harris
said she was a gun owner, and she said Tim
Wallas is a gun owner. You're in Michigan, a state
where gun owner shape is very important. Do you think
that that plays with undecided voters? Do they make their
decision because Kamala Harris says in this debate, by the way,
I'm a gun owner like you, I.
Speaker 10 (08:28):
Would love to talk to that person who suddenly decides
right that that's suddenly going to be the change that happens.
It was very clear that that was a line that
she was hoping to use and bring up in this debate.
Speaker 9 (08:39):
This is something I was surprised though, weren't you surprised
she said that. I was like, oh, WHOA, say what?
Speaker 10 (08:45):
And I'd also be curious to know when she bought,
you know, the gun. But look, I mean, this is
what all campaigns, these presidential campaigns, what we know right now.
This is an incredibly close election. It is going to
be one in inches, not yards, and so you are
going to you anything that you can, you know, and
this is some of the voters who in Michigan, in Pennsylvania,
(09:06):
in Wisconsin, who went to Trump right in sixteen, went
back to Biden in twenty who Kamala Harris needs to
win over now in twenty four.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Let's go to Daniel, who's in Kansas City, Missouri. Daniel,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
Go ahead, Hi, Jeremy, thank you so much for taking
my call. I'm calling from Kansas City, Missouri, as you said,
and I have two things if I might. They both
relate to how prepared these candidates are. And I don't
just mean prepared for the debate, but prepared for office.
(09:40):
I think Kamala Harris showed herself to be very very
prepared for office in offering multiple actual plans of action
that Donald Trump could not measure up to. He consistently
said in response to those that, well, we've got a
better plan. We've just got a better plan, and then
just off on some other tangents. And I think that's
(10:04):
very important that, you know, we can't elect someone who
just says oliman talks about other plans when the only
plan that we actually have for him is the Project
twenty five plans, that's all I think.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Which he claimed on the debate that he that he
knew nothing about Daniel. Let me just take that to
Katie Kirk. You know a lot of people said that
going into this debate, the thing Kamala Harris had to
do was define herself rather than let Donald Trump define her.
How do you think she did on that score for
people who didn't know much about.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
Her, I think she did really well. I think she
could have always had room for a little bit of improvement.
I think that, you know, she did have a challenging
job because she had to kind of tell about her life,
and I think that's what she did with the first
question about kind of contrasting her middle class upbringing she
was raised by a single mom. They bought for their
(10:56):
first house when she was in high school. I think
that was such a star comparison to obviously Donald Trump,
who Anne Richards would say, you know, he was born
with this Well she said of George W. Bush, he
was born with the silver foot in his mouth. But
Donald Trump obviously comes from an affluent family. So I
think she kind of was able to position herself as
(11:17):
an American who really actually fulfilled the American dream. And
I think with policy operating opportunity, economy was strong. She
did give some specifics. I still think people will be
looking for more and I hope she does more interviews
after this, well, Talliver.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
As you know, Donald Trump has now run for president
in the last three election cycles, and each time he's
had to debate a different candidate.
Speaker 14 (11:41):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Here's an exchange between him and the former Secretary of
State Hillary Clinton and one of the debates in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 15 (11:47):
Last time, at the first debate, we had millions of
people fact checking, so I expect we'll have millions more
fact checking, because you know, it is it's just awfully
good that someone with the the temperament of Donald Trump
is not in charge of the law in our country.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Because you'd be in jail. Secretary Clinton, nothing like that tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It's worth noting, Tolliver that Trump did not follow up
on that threat and actually jail Ylery Clinton when he
was when he was president. But we will be back
with more of your calls on the Middle. This is
the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in
the Middle is a national call in show. We are
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:33):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking for your reaction to the debate
between Vice President Harris and former President Trump. Tolliver, what
is the number of people to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us a Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media. I just posted a hot TikTok
go comment on it.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I'm here with journalists and anchor Katie Kirk of Katie
Kirk Media and Zoe Clark, political director at Michigan Public
And before we get back to the phones, Katie, Are
there any other big moments do you think like this
coming up in the presidential race or is this potentially
the last time there will be a poll moving event
like a presidential debate before November.
Speaker 9 (13:12):
Well, I can tell you what I think is a
poll moving event. You guys. That just happened. Taylor Swift
endorsed Kamala Harris and Tim Walls you know, where there
was a lot of questions about whether she would. She
put a lengthy post on Instagram which I saw just
before I joined you, and that has the potential to
(13:32):
move many many young people into the Kamala you know, Harris,
Tim Walls Camp.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Hmm. Interesting. I hadn't seen that because I was just
getting ready for this.
Speaker 9 (13:45):
But I know, Hey, I'll bring you all the breaking
news here, jaring me.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I'm still on the plot exactly, Zoe.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
You know, it does seem other than Taylor Swift's views
that voters are caring right now according to the polls
about the economy, democracy, immigration, reproductive rights, all those issues
came up in the debate. What are you hearing from
people in the crucial swing state of Michigan about what's
most important right now?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (14:08):
I mean it's to your point, it's really it's the economy,
it's inflation. Abortion has been very top of mind for
Michigan Anders. That is because our Democratic Governor Gretchen Whimer
has really been sort of a champion nationally of the issue,
and it was a constitutional ballot initiative just two years ago,
so very much on the top of the minds of voters.
I think Democrats really want to talk about abortion here
(14:31):
in the state and want to make the race be
about that. Donald Trump, as we saw tonight, or what
he was meant to do, really is try to make
it about the economy, try to make it about immigration
and crime and sort of tying the two together. But
it seemed that time and time during the debate he
wasn't quite able to do that, right, Like, that's what
we all heard. Know, He's going to bring it back
(14:51):
to the economy, and time and time again was goaded
into things about, you know, the size of his rallies.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
Right right, which I think was very smart on her part.
You know, she started saying, if you ever go to
a rally, people leave out of boredom. I mean, of course, should.
Speaker 10 (15:06):
I invite you to a rally?
Speaker 9 (15:08):
Right, yes, right? Exactly, and I think that made him crazy.
And I do think she had a very good comeback.
I knew she was going to do this on immigration. Yes,
obviously it's a very important issue. But this comprehensive immigration
reform bill that had been cobbled together, worked out for
more than six months, the most bipartisan effort I think
(15:32):
since Ronald Reagan. And Donald Trump did in fact tell
his supporters on Capitol Hill to scuttle that bill because
he did not want to give the Biden administration of victory.
And I thought she was a pretty effective That was
a pretty effective comeback to the immigration issues he was
pointing out. And I'm not sure that many Americans really
realize this.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Let's go to.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Marie, who's in Los Angeles. Marie, what did you think
of the debate?
Speaker 16 (15:59):
Hi, thanks for having me on. My comment is mostly
I thought Harris's.
Speaker 13 (16:06):
Approach on to you know, the situation.
Speaker 16 (16:09):
In Israel and UH was unnecessary the way that she
awarded that. Basically, you know, she's had a pretty staunch
support of Israel, and I do know some people you
know at l A, of course, I have some people
who are a bit more on the farther left side,
and that has been a hot button uh topic or
(16:31):
issue for them is acknowledging that, of course with that
situation that you know, uh, having such staunch support is
not exactly the best thing if these methods are you know,
kind of egregious.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And but you were you were satisfied with Harris's response
on that issue.
Speaker 17 (16:52):
You're saying, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 16 (16:55):
I think I I personally saying, uh that obviously we
need to for Palestinians, we need to uh, you know,
give them their ability to live a I'm not coming
across very well with us but driving at the moment too.
(17:17):
But I think it might not be efficient for a
lot of people who are sufficient response for a lot
of people who are really farther on that issue.
Speaker 11 (17:27):
But for me, I thought it was a good.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Okay, Marie, thank you, and just be careful driving while
while calling in Tolliver. As you remember, there was one
person who called it and got pulled over right in.
Speaker 14 (17:37):
The right a legend.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We don't we we're not paying tickets here.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So Zoe, what about the issue though, of Gaza, because
that was that was that is one that Harris continues
to have to deal with big factions of the Democratic
Party that are very upset with the way that the
War UH is being handled by the United States, even
though the US isn't actively fighting in it, but obviously
our close relationship with Israel means that the US has
(18:03):
a lot of sway in what does end up occurring.
Speaker 10 (18:06):
Yes, and this is something that she is going to
have to continue to talk about and will be asked about.
And in Michigan, as we talked about previously, in February,
when there was the presidential primary, we saw more than
one hundred thousand voters vote for uncommitted, not for Joe Biden,
(18:26):
but uncommitted on the Democratic primary ballot here in the state.
And when you consider that Hillary Clinton, for instance, lost
Michigan by just under eleven thousand votes in two sixteen,
one hundred thousand votes is meaningful. Outside of Detroit, we
have the largest Arab American population. And so this is
(18:49):
a message that Kamala Harris needs to figure out, not
on her own. Democrats in general right now are really
grappling with this, and I think we're going to continue
to see protests. Apparently tonight there were protests Tim Walls
speaking when Kamala Harris and Tim Walls Hold held their
first rally here in Michigan. There were protesters during that rally,
(19:10):
and this is something that is going to continue to
be part of the conversation in Michigan and across the country.
Speaker 9 (19:15):
Certainly it's been tough, though, you know, she has to
thread that needle and she has to obviously stand by
Israel a very important US ally. Her husband, Doug im Hoff,
is Jewish and has been speaking about anti Semitism. And
I think, you know, what is difficult as people are
having a challenging time thinking dialectically about this situation, and
(19:38):
I think when I interviewed her in January, she was
very careful to weigh her words. So I think, you know,
it's a very tricky situation, and she doesn't want to
come out too strongly for either adversaries in this war,
or come out too strongly for Israel, too strongly for
the Palestinians. So I think I think she's she's doing
(20:01):
a pretty good job of that, even though obviously both
extreme both sides want her to.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Obviously, we've heard from a number of listeners now about
what Harris did. Well, what if you're on the Trump
side right now, what do you look at in this
debate and say he did well on that or is
there something that that they're pointing to, because I have
seen many on his side would say right now that
(20:28):
they didn't like the moderators. They thought the moderators were
ganging up on him.
Speaker 9 (20:33):
Well, I think the translation when you don't like the moderators,
that means your guy didn't do very well. He's got
a lot more airtime, you know, quite frankly than Kamala Harris.
I think the moderators were strong and did a good job.
And I think that some of Donald Trump's supporters were
worried about his performance, so they you know that you
blame the messenger. I've seen that playbook before, so I
(20:56):
think that. You know, I thought he he's seen measured
at first, but I thought I think as the debate
went on, he became less coherent and less clear thinking
in his arguments. I'm trying to think of where I
thought he was strong. I thought he was snarky when
(21:17):
he said to her, I'm speaking. Does that sound familiar
because that's what she said during one of her past debates.
So I don't know, Zoe, was there a moment where
he thought Donald Trump really did shine.
Speaker 10 (21:30):
You know, it's such a good question, and right after
the debate, I was trying to think about exactly that moment,
and what I really think happened is he shined for
his base, right, like, for folks who are wanting Donald
Trump to be Donald Trump, that base voter. He did that.
But what we know is Donald Trump is a really
(21:51):
low ceiling in terms of like who's going to turn
out and vote, so he can speak to his base
all he wants. But when you're talking about eating dogs
in a president debate, I don't necessarily know that you're
getting independent voters suddenly going gosh. I wasn't sure, but
this has really changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Tolliver a lot coming in online. Why don't you give
us a few of the messages?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, we got some great ones. Ethan and West, Los
Angeles says the debate was exciting and frustrating. Harris took
a little while to warm up and then she was terrific,
and yet I was still frustrated at the craziness of
Trump and some of her pandering. Marilyn and Birmingham, Mississippi,
says Kamala Harris had strong good points. However, her delivery
was frustrating. Her voice was tearful at times, and this
was worrying. She needs to strengthen her delivery, especially if
(22:35):
there should be a second debate. Interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Interesting, Yeah, let's go to Steve, who's in Saint Louis, Missouri.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Steve, welcome to the middle. What did you think of
the debate?
Speaker 18 (22:47):
Thank you? Well? I think Trump was vintage Trump. I mean,
this is a guy who went to the Joseph Devils
school of campaigning. Repeat the enough and eventually the lie
becomes the truth. And that's what I'm so tired of.
I think he is he has ruined our standing in
(23:10):
the world. I yeah, and I'm pretty conservative. I mean
I voted for Reagan, both Bushes and for gosh'sn Inscat McCain.
But I'm voting for Kamala Harris. So I'm glad. I
got on. Glad I got to mention it. My politics
are conservative. So for the Republicans out there listening are ambivalent.
(23:33):
Trump has no business being president.
Speaker 12 (23:36):
We need someone do your do your conservative friends there
in Saint Louis do they agree with you or are
they sticking with Trump?
Speaker 18 (23:50):
Some of them quietly will agree. They don't like to
speak too loudly for some reason. That's just kind of
but but yes, this is Saint Louis. I mean, you know,
we kind of lived for the last decade. We've lived
intention about a lot of things. So people are people
kind of tread tread lightly. But I think a lot
(24:11):
of conservative folks, a lot of Republicans, people I've known
for years, will be voting for Kamala Harris, because I
just can't stand that the attitude with him of you know,
you know, just just listen to what I'm saying, Just
believe what I'm telling you, do what I say, you know,
(24:31):
and he just I do not. The bottom line is this,
I do not trust him. I trust her. She's been
a prosecutor, she's an attorney. She's well educated, and she
has come up through. She's come up through, She's worked
hard and come up through the ranks. But when you
(24:51):
hear someone talk about Haitian's eating dogs and doctors a
lying babies to die. I mean the guy, you know,
I was waiting for him to say that Kamala Harris's husband,
he has worns in a tale, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Okay, see, I think We've got it there. Thank you
very much for that. Katie Couric, do you think that
Kamala Harris was trying to speak to independence conservatives tonight
or just everybody? I mean, did it seem like she
was going after a particular group.
Speaker 9 (25:22):
I think she was just trying to define her policy
a little bit more. And I think she was obviously
going for women. There's a huge gender gap already of
I think thirteen points or something, and I think obviously
suburban women who care deeply about reproductive rights, I think
(25:43):
she was addressing them, particularly when she told those personal
stories about women dealing with you not having the access
to healthcare in various states and having to fly other places.
And she has been working very hard, I think, ever
since Roe was overturned as the point person on reproductive
(26:05):
rights for the Biben administration. So I think she was
really reinforcing those bona fides, as they say. And but
I think she was trying to Obviously she wants to
reach out to independence and undecided voters as well, and
I think she wanted to seem like she was the
adult in the room.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Let's go to Scott, who is in west Haven, Connecticut. Scott,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Scott, are you there,
maybe not. Okay, how about it hopefully pulling No, it's
late in West Haven, Connecticut. Let's try Jessica in Northridge, California. Jessica,
(26:45):
what did you think.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Of the debate?
Speaker 13 (26:48):
Well, it was what really struck me was the different
ways in which the two candidates characterized our country. And
if you recall, during his presidency, Trump characterize some countries
that immigrants came from as as whole countries, that that
was a big specific thing, and now he's presenting our
country in exactly the same way. According to him, everyone's
(27:11):
laughing at us, and we're going to hell and blah
blah blah blah blah. Right, And I mean, who wants
to hear that about our country? I mean, it's such
an it's such a negative message. It's gloom, it's doom,
it's fearful. Whereas Harris, on the other hand, much more
upbeat and optimistic about our future under her leadership. And
(27:31):
that just sets up this. I mean, I think that's
what a true leader does. The true leader says, you know,
follow me to a brighter future. But we have so
much to build on that is already really good about
this country. And I think that that is kind of
her approach, and I think it's a really smart one
that certainly struck me as being much more positive, much
(27:55):
more inspirational, really right, yeah, inspirational. And I think that
that was really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Thank you Jessica for that.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And Zoe Clark did seem like there were two very
different visions of the I mean, we know there are
two very different visions of the country from these candidates.
Speaker 10 (28:13):
And you saw that again tonight. And I mean, I
think to Jessica's point, this is something that the campaign
since you know January or excuse me, since July twenty first,
there are no days during election twenty twenty four, has
been trying to do right, which this is a campaign
about optimism and looking forward. I mean, even just that
we're not going back is a very stark message.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Which she did use in the debate, which has been
like a campaign slogan for her, and she actually did get.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
It in there a few times.
Speaker 9 (28:40):
Yeah, exactly. I think I think this is an extension
of what you saw at the convention. You heard the
word joy repeatedly at the convention, and I think who
whoever orchestrated that and tried to give it this quote
unquote vibe is extending it obviously throughout the campaign, and
I think you can trast that with Trump's very dystopian view.
(29:01):
I don't know if you remember his inauguriala dress in
twenty sixteen. It was very dark and mena Carney and
very very right, very negative, and I think that is
an extreme contrast with the way that Democrats are trying
to portray their vision for the future.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Katie, just briefly, do you think that, coming off of
this debate, that Kamala Harris is going to go out
and do some more interviews with members of the media,
because she's only done one since the launch of her
campaign so far.
Speaker 9 (29:32):
Yeah, and I think she did a radio interview as well, Yes, right,
But yeah, I hope she does. You know. I think
it's a mixed bag, and I think in the current
media environment, Jeremy people can twist and distort anything people say,
so I think she's fearful of that. But I really
think she needs to do and I hope she does.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeh, Tolliver, I know this is going to be hard,
but can you play us a clip from the last
debate between President Biden and former President Trump?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Oh, as long as it's not about golf, please, I
got you. Yeah, a warning this clip might make some
listeners squeamish and uncomfortable.
Speaker 19 (30:08):
Make sure that all those things we need to do, childcare, eldercare,
making sure that we continue to suppent stems in our
healthcare system, making sure that we're able to make every
single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to
do with the with the COVID, I excuse me, with
dealing with everything we have to do with Look, if
(30:34):
we finally beat medicare.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Thank you, President Biden. Beat medicare. That was that was yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
By the way, Tolliver, I think it's worth reminding our
listeners that if they want to support us, there are
two ways they can do that. Number one is you
can make a tax deductible contribution to the Middle. You
can go to listen to the Middle dot com and
do that in any amount. There's somebody who gives ten
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Speaker 2 (30:57):
We love that. It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And the second thing you could do as you can
rate this podcast with five stars wherever you listen to
your podcast that it's helpful as well.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
We'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hopson.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
We're asking you this hour for your thoughts on the
presidential debate between Vice President Harris and former President Trump.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
You can call us at eight.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. You can also reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
Michigan Public Political Director Zoe Clark and journalists and anchor
Katie Couric, co founder of Katie Couric Media.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
And let's get right back to the phones. And Patrick
is in Chicago. Hi, Patrick, go ahead.
Speaker 20 (31:38):
Yeah, Hello, I just wanted to make the observation. I
don't think I don't think it was talked about much.
But as far as listening a podcast about the Middle,
you know, I think the average American would want to
know more about Donald Trump's suggestion for a twenty percent tariff.
I think one of the previous commentaris you know, mentioned
(32:00):
that Donald Trump didn't have a lot of plans, and
that was one of his most clear plans that he
had laid forth. You know, this tariff that he plans
to put on all products, you know, across the board.
And I don't think it was you know, another uh,
you know, you mentioned that some of these individuals on
(32:20):
the right are saying that that the moderates were teaming
up on Trump. I don't know if I know, the
question about the tariffs was sounded pretty harsh, but I
do think that it's it's not exactly ganging up on,
you know, Donald Trump to say that, you know, a
twenty percent tariff across the board was being enormous raised, right,
(32:41):
and costs for Americans. I mean, those are always passed
on to the consumer, always like, in no way ever
will that be put on the will other countries pay
for that? I just thought that that could have been
talked about more in the debate. You know, we we
always hear about we need to talk about the economy,
and I just kind of wish we had a talked
about that a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, Patrick, thank you very much for that. Zoe.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
You know, it's funny that the old line, it's the
economy stupid, the James Carville line it is usually I mean,
that is always the issue that is the most important
one to voters. And obviously for Patrick, the tariff's idea
and the Trump tariffs, a lot of them, As he said,
Biden has kept a lot of the tariffs in place
from his administration, but now he wants to go even
(33:24):
further and really double down.
Speaker 10 (33:26):
Yeah, and I mean to each of these things. I mean,
this is what happens when you have ninety minutes, right,
and you want to talk about the Afghanistan withdrawal, you
want to talk about climate change. I mean, there was
so many topics to get to, but any one of
these issues could have been ninety minutes unto themselves. Which
is why Katie I think was talking earlier about the
importance of interviews to be able to talk to candidates.
(33:47):
So it's not just these ninety minutes where you know
you're going through fifteen different subjects. But to the point,
particularly about twenty percent tariffs, exactly, it feels a little
like just you know, saying, well, Mexico's going to pay
for the wall, right, that you just throw these things
out and there's not necessarily time to really dig in.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
But there was a race. I was just going to say, Zoe,
there was a recent headline I think that said in
the New York Times for Trump, the are tariffs are
the solution to almost any problem. So I think they
here if people were having a drinking game, and tariffs
was one of the words. They would be really I'm
not going to say a dirty word, but you can't
(34:26):
do that on public Greek. But after they would be
they would be intoxicated.
Speaker 10 (34:32):
Right now, No, And it was about childcare, right, It
was about childcare and going to tariffs. And this is
exactly to your point, I mean, and this is what
Trump has been very good at since twenty fifteen, and
really even before that. It is figuring out one or
two words and to just continue to use them until
they sort of seem to make sense in our collective consciousness.
(34:54):
But to your point, again, twenty percent tariffs. And this
was another point where the Vice presid needed him where
she she brought up Wharton School, right and the economists there,
which I thought was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Which it was because he always talks about having gone
to Wharton School, and I knew that was he was.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
She was trying to go to him. There.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Let's go to David, who's in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, a swing state,
the state where the debate happened.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
David, what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 9 (35:22):
Hi?
Speaker 8 (35:22):
There, I thought the debate kind of went how I
figured it would go, which would be Donald Trump would
sound like a crazy old man who lives in conspiracy
theories in the political fringes that no one takes seriously,
and Kamala Harris would appear like the attorney general she
(35:45):
was for California. He wasn't able to answer basic questions
numerous times, he was asked twice a yes or no
question when it came to Ukraine, and went on a
tangent that didn't do anything. And I think Kamala parents
and her debate team were very smart, and they knew
how to play into his emotions by insulting the rally sizes,
(36:11):
people leaving his rallies early. They played into his need
to always be seen as this masculine man. And yet
she appeared controlled, regimented, and educated to not play into
conservative Republican narratives of her being an angry black woman
or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
There you go, Katie Kurk, let me ask you about that.
You know, they they both prepared in their own way,
uh Trump and Harris, and he famously doesn't like to
really do debate prep and it has worked for him
in the past many times, but it didn't seem like
it worked for him this time, because she was very
(36:58):
prepared on every single subject that that was thrown at her.
Speaker 9 (37:01):
Yeah, I mean I think that I think he has
a much more free wheeling style, which I think appeals
to a lot of his supporters and just kind of
I think they one of the things they appreciate about
Donald Trump is that he is unconventional and they like
when I think he goes off the rails a bit,
(37:24):
that he doesn't sort of follow the prescriptive sort of
idea of how someone should behave, how they should conduct themselves.
But I think it worked against him in this case
because she did seem in such command of the facts,
in command of policy. I thought she could have done
(37:47):
a little bit better job when Lindsey Davis asked her
about her changing positions on things like fracking, and she
ticked off a few. She addressed her changing views on fracking,
but there were a number of other things, and I
think she could have been more authentic. Instead of going
back to her background as a middle class family, she
(38:08):
could have addressed some of these ways her views have evolved.
And I think she could have said, hey, listen, jd
Vance said, you were you know, tantamount to Hitler in
twenty sixteen. Obviously his views evolved. I thought that would
have been a good opportunity for her to talk about
(38:28):
JD Vance and some of the things he said in
the past about Trump.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Well, she did say.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
At one point, you know, she was talking about whether
there would be guardrails on a second Trump term, and
she said J. D Vance is not going to stop you,
which I thought was very interesting. Let's go to Jesse,
who's in Philadelphia. Jesse, what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 21 (38:50):
I just felt like it was somewhat biased, and even
being as someone who's Democratic leaning, but I do consider
myself a moderate in some senses, it just seemed like
it was biased, leaning towards Kamala and it just wasn't
super a super convincing win because of that.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
What do you mean by that? What felt bias to you?
Speaker 21 (39:11):
It just it felt like some of the questions were
kind of assaftballs that were easy for Kamlain, and obviously
Trump should have been able to answer those easily, but
just because he was so riled up and unruly towards
the end of the debate and not even cohering, he
couldn't answer those questions in a sensible manner, which it
felt like kind of lost him trying to gain the
(39:34):
moderate com this.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So do you think that what you saw tonight is
going to affect your vote this November?
Speaker 21 (39:42):
No, ways, there's no shot. I think once Trump started
talking about people eating dogs and cats, I think that's
when that's when I maybe went all the way for Kamala.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I have to say, interesting, interesting, Jesse, thank you very
much for that.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
What do you think about that, Katie Kirk?
Speaker 9 (40:01):
I mean, it's interesting. I wish he was still on
the phone because I would have liked to have heard
from him what questions or what direction the moderators should
have been taking this debate that would have seemed less
biased toward Pamala Harris, because I thought they were pretty
even handed. I think because Donald Trump seemed to be floundering,
(40:27):
that wasn't necessarily the moderator's fault. And again, you know,
it's very easy to blame the messenger. I thought they
did a good job. I have to say, I think
they they've been the best moderators that I've seen in
a long time.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
And Clark, We're going to get TV ratings information in
the coming days about how many people watch this on TV,
but of course so many people are going to consume
it just in little clips on social media.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
What do you think is going to be the clip
that stands out.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
From the debate that'll just be going everywhere in the
next twenty four hours.
Speaker 10 (41:03):
Oh my goodness. Another thing I was thinking to myself.
I mean, I think the TikTok sort of vibe brat
summer election is going to be very much like the
Kamala Harris faces.
Speaker 9 (41:14):
There were all life go too right.
Speaker 10 (41:16):
Okay, So there's a lot of split screens if you
are watching it, and there are plenty of people who
just listened on public radio, which is amazing too, so
for folks who didn't see it, a lot of split
screens where Trump is not looking furious but maybe disgruntled
it's a better word, and says something, and Harris is
just sort of staring at him right, sometimes smiling, sometimes
(41:39):
even almost laughing it off a little bit.
Speaker 9 (41:41):
And I think I thought it she did. There were
a couple moments that you did feel that she was
suppressing a laugh right when when he was saying some things.
But also I think she sort of perfected the bemused
slightly disdainful, you know, air of like wait what yeah.
Speaker 10 (42:03):
And then I think, I mean a line that's already
kind of going viral too. Is that what you got
fired by? You know, eighty one million voters? And it's
obvious that you're still processing that. I mean, obviously someone
came up with that line ahead of time, and that's
going to continue to go.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you really wanted to continue with it, if you
really want to continue with the TikTok theme, you would
have said that she looked demure, because that's the one
that's what everybody says over Tolliver knows what I'm talking about. Okay,
let's go to Doug. Let's go to Doug in Newport Richie, Florida. Doug,
what did you think of the debate?
Speaker 12 (42:37):
Oh?
Speaker 22 (42:37):
Boy, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 14 (42:39):
I was.
Speaker 22 (42:39):
I was so nervous going into it because after seeing
the very first debate, I didn't know how she would
hold up under the scrutiny that our prior, our crient
president went through. And I thought that some very strong
points are made by her and not much in the
way of anything new hearing from the former president.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
What what stood out to you?
Speaker 1 (43:02):
What was the what what do you think was what's
the moment you're gonna remember or tell people about tomorrow
from this debate?
Speaker 17 (43:07):
Well, would you just look at the two candidates side
by side. There's such a contrast between this bright, vibrant,
engaged looking over at her opponent and youthful and then
him hunched over his thing, never really ever looking up
and just mumbling and going on and on and ranting.
Speaker 22 (43:26):
Those are that's what things out in my mind, the.
Speaker 7 (43:29):
Impression of the two different candidates.
Speaker 22 (43:30):
It's such an extreme.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, just as we were just talking about, Doug, thank
you for that.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
And guess what I have Scott back from West Haven,
Connecticut this time for real, Scott go ahead takes what
you thought of the debate?
Speaker 9 (43:44):
Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 14 (43:46):
I don't care what Jaelow Swift says. Okay, she's distinctive music.
But besides that, I'm a fan of Harris. Anyways, I
thought it was a non event to the debate. I thought,
if everybody wants it was probably Kamila Harris, but with
smirky and and calculated cheap shots and below the bellt
type of things like a snake in the grass. But
(44:08):
Trump did not articulate his points, and uh, Camille Harris,
she has a plan, but what is it? I don't
know what it is, you know. And uh, but I
mean a lot of things went on in that debate,
but I think, uh it it didn't wouldn't sway my
vote either way. I'm a liberal from Massachusetts basically, and uh,
you know, I'm looking for that type of a candidate,
(44:29):
but I didn't. That was another event for me watching that, Uh,
that debate.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
So so what are you gonna do this? What are
you gonna do this November? Scott?
Speaker 14 (44:38):
Uh, probably go up to New Hampshire or something like
that and enjoy the joy, the skiing. I know, I
know what you're saying, is that is that you know?
I don't know. I'm still I'm still up in the
air about who to vote for.
Speaker 18 (44:52):
Uh.
Speaker 14 (44:53):
You know, prosecutors take cheap shots like that at people,
you know. I you know, I've been in a jury's
and I've been in trials. I'm an attorney. I just
didn't nothing didn't nothing work for me there on that debate.
I just but.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Scott, can I ask you questions? Scott? Did you did
you feel like Donald Trump took some cheap shots as well?
I mean, what did you think about.
Speaker 14 (45:14):
That's right from the direction, that's that's what he does,
that's what definite from that's how he became president before.
But you know, I just didn't think he was as prepared,
but came in she was. She was sixty years in
ice media isolation and prepare for this debate, you know.
Speaker 9 (45:30):
And uh so, you know, I think she's been campaigning
pretty I don't think she's been in isolation. I agree,
she hasn't done many interviews, but she's been out on
the campaign trail, going to a lot of.
Speaker 14 (45:42):
Areas and and they've been you know, presidents these days,
the president should be six years the term either learn
for two years and they campaign for two years. Nothing
gets done.
Speaker 9 (45:52):
But do you want it? Would you like to Scott?
Sorry to ask you one more question. I can't help it,
but would you like to see come? It's Kamala by
the way, everyone says Kamala and it's it's like it's
like Kama law. But anyway, would you like to see her?
Would you like to see her do more interviews and
(46:13):
learn more about her policy positions? Would that be helpful
to you in terms.
Speaker 14 (46:18):
Of deciding it would be I'd love the debate. Listen.
I was going to vote for Michelle Obama, Okay, trust me,
but I would love to see you get some her
articulate her positions more.
Speaker 16 (46:30):
Uh.
Speaker 14 (46:30):
You know, I know what the whole thing with China
and is everything going on in me that the corpora
jacks is uh chinawn American it's three five percent. It's
just it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But yeah, thank you, Listen.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I'm so glad that we I'm glad that we got
you on the show. I really do appreciate your call.
I appreciate it. Uh and uh, Tolliver. Just before we
wrap this up, by the way, people can leave messages
if they didn't get through.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
But this is just so fun. I hope we can
talk some more. Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well, Katie, I actually I had a question that I
was saving for you for the very end because I
did notice that it is Tuesday, September tenth, and it
was twenty three years ago tomorrow that you were one
of the people who broke the news to the country
that the World Trade Center had been attacked as nine
to eleven started, And I just wondered, as you watched
(47:21):
this debate this evening, do you see any connection between
that very monumental moment in our country's history and where
we are right now in our politics.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
Gosh, you know, I don't necessarily think they're connected. Obviously,
that was the end of innocence many ways for the
United States as we realized the threat of terrorism. But
in terms of our political calculus and system and attitudes
and polarization, I'm not sure that is connected in any way,
(47:53):
because if you remember how unified the country was after that,
and how support if people were of Rudy Giuliani and
George W. Bush, and how we all banded together as Americans,
and I you know, it was the most horrific event,
but I was so proud of our country and how
(48:14):
we came together and supported each other, and whether you
were a blue state or a red state, it didn't matter.
And you know, I'm going to be thinking of all
those families I got to know tomorrow. And it's been
a beautiful week in New York City, cerulyum, blue skies,
cool temperatures, just like it was on that terrible day
(48:37):
in two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Well, that is where we have to leave it this hour.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I want to thank my guests, Katie curic Co founder
of Katie Kirk Media, and Michigan Public political director Zoe Clark.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Thank you both so much for being on.
Speaker 9 (48:51):
It was really fun. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Thanks Jeremy, and we'll be back later this week.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Asking you whether or not media and social media companies
like and Meta have too much power in this election, Tolliver,
how can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (49:04):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle,
or you can write to us on social media and
give them even more power.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnook Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, and John Barth. Our
intern is Anika Deshler. Our technical director is Jason Kroft.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Thanks to the more than four hundred and ten public
radio stations making it possible for people across the country
to listen to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
If you didn't get through, leave us a message.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you later
this week.
Speaker 19 (50:01):
Mouss
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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