August 5, 2024 • 45 mins
Chris welcomes divorce lawyer, Laura Wasser who says that celebrities are just as scared as her everyday clients when it comes to the daunting process.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most traumatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison Lauren Zema coming to you from the home
office in Austin, Texas. LZ. We're at it again, divorce.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We're talking about divorce, We talk about it. Are we
talking about it too much? I'm talking about divorce and
death a lot in life. Do I need to reel
it in?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Here's the thing, and we're going to get into this
today with our guest Laura Wasser, who is the go
to divorce attorney really in the world. The list of
a listers and els will go into this who she's
represented in just a second. But the reason we do
talk about death, mental health, divorce, these are things that
affect all of us. They will affect all of us
(00:43):
at some point. That's just statistically the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Death is a guarantee and right half of marriages and
a divorce.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Right, whether it's your parents, whether it's a friend, whether
it's happened to you or will happen to you. Divorce
is something that's just it's not taboo. It's something we
can and should talk about. So it's not this huge, looming,
dark disaster out there that's going to envelop us and
swallow us. It's something that we can understand and maybe
(01:11):
avoid if we understand it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So true, and we wanted to talk to people. So
we recently spoke to a divorce coach on the podcast
Tara Eisenheart. If you missed that episode, check it out.
And after speaking to her, we thought, because she was
very clear she does not get into the legalities, and
we thought, so let's bring a lawyer on. And we
wanted to bring the very best of the best. And
what I loved about our conversation with Laura Wasser, which
(01:33):
you're all about to hear, is that she did offer
some tips of, you know, having watched marriages dissolve for
decades in her business, how they could have gone better,
how things maybe could have been saved. So we get
into it all from how a marriage could be saved,
to how to first approach a divorce, to how much
a divorce attorney could really cost you. And Laura has
(01:55):
a resume that is just unparalleled. I've known her name
for years because working an energy tament news you know
the name Laura Wasser. She has represented everybody, Kim Kardashian,
Ryan Reynolds, Anna Faris, Maria Shreiver, Stevie Wonder, just to
name a few. I mean, that's just the tip of
the celebrity client Iceberg. She has numerous accolades under her belt.
(02:18):
A graduate of University of California, she has been a
guest lecturer at multiple law schools. She went to Berkeley,
So she's just incredible and we can't wait to hear
for you to hear a conversation with her. Please welcome
Laura Wasser. Laura, I'm so excited to talk to you.
I used its over easy dot com? Did you for
(02:40):
my divorce?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
And was it?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It was over easy? Absolutely loved it, big fan of yours.
But yeah, we just absolutely loved it. So we're excited
to dive right in with you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, good, Wait, so you know I didn't know this? Yes,
what was so easy about it? Why? Why did you
like this process?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Okay? So I used Laura Wasser's it's over easy dot com,
which Laura now is divorce dot com. Right.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Yes, we were absorbed by divorce dot Com and I
became their chief of divorce Evolution.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Wow, what a business called that comes with the title
of being the chief of divorce Evolution.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I mean, I'm basically just the face of it, their
spokesperson whatever. And I love it because what we had
with that's soverasy and I'm glad that you had a
good time using it. Was it just we didn't have
the funds to like really make a great platform that
was easy. You know, I know divorce law really well.
When we started it, I think I had been doing
(03:38):
it for like twenty years. I've now been doing it
for thirty years. But I'm not a tech person. I
didn't know how to push this button and that goes there.
And I think why we called it It's over Easy,
and why divorce dot Com is so great as you're
going through this really miserable time emotionally, and it shouldn't
be super complicated, you know, legally or technically or whatever.
(03:58):
You should be able to answer certain questions that you
know the app asks you about your situation, plug certain
things in, fill out forms, and have it done. And
I think divorce dot Com does that much better than
It's over Easy did. And I think that both of
those platforms do it better less expensively than you know,
in a lot of instances, having two lawyers getting into
(04:20):
a pissing contest, whatever their past is or anything else.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
This is something that's been in your family, your dad,
now you, and I'm just curious, how has it evolved.
Laura and I have both been through divorces. I'm the
product of a divorce. How have you seen it evolve?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Even in my thirty years of doing it, It's evolved.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
But if you really even go back to like what
I was growing up with and what we were talking
about at the dinner table when I was a kid
and my dad was doing divorce law, I mean, we
now have same sex marriage, which is amazing. It also
means we have same sex divorce. There used to be
a totally different set of rules if same sex couples
split up, had kids, all of that stuff. So that's
been a big change in not in the thirty years
(05:04):
I've been practicing California, but in other states.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We have no fault.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Divorce, which I now am aware that the conservative right
is trying to take away. But no fault divorce means
like when you see irreconcilable differences box checked like it means, yeah,
we know you all have beef with each other. Maybe
he didn't leave put the toilet seat down, or maybe
she cheated on you. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
It's not working out. You're getting divorced, as opposed to
(05:28):
pages and pages of evidence about what he or she did.
That's irrelevant. We're getting divorced, we're moving on. And so
that's been a big change. I think that generally the
legislature in all states is trying to make it simpler
for people to get divorced, even though I think this
country favors marriage, but I do think they're trying to
(05:49):
make it easier because it really is. There's a lot
of red tape, and our court systems are really backed up,
and so what the changes have been good and bad.
Now we do hearing sometimes remote amazing.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
You don't have to get in your car and drive
an hour downtown and charge your client for that. So
there's been really good evolution of it. And I also
think it's less taboo. You know, thirty years ago, nope,
we didn't have podcasts, but nobody wanted to have me
on their TV show talking about divorce. I mean, even
in twenty eighteen when I wrote a book, they said,
we don't really want to talk about divorce.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's so depressing, so true, and Chris and I are
always saying that, Look, we're both sitting here too very
happy divorcees. And I'm not saying divorce isn't hard, but
like divorce can be very positive in your life overall.
And as you're talking to us, Laura, you have a
pile of paperwork on your desk behind you, and I
want to touch on what you just said, but all
(06:39):
the red tape, Chris knows this about me. I have
a paranoia about paperwork. I understand this is a flaw
of mine, and I wish I was better at documents
and paperwork, but that was the biggest thing with me
when I was getting divorced. And luckily, like we didn't
have kids, so there were a lot of things that
we could take out of the conversation. But truly, when
I found your website, it's over easy nowdivorce dot com girl,
(07:02):
I bought the premium package and I said, absolutely, let
me throw just a little bit of money at this
problem to avoid throwing a whole lot of money and
time at this problem. And you guys did make it
so easy. They basically sent us all the paperwork and
we just had to sign like we kind of filled
out a quick questionnaire of what our issues were. We
wanted to split the profit we'd have from selling our house,
(07:24):
and that was basically it, and you guys made it
so easy for us. So I also love hearing you
say as a divorce attorney that you don't want two
lawyers to get in a quote big pissing contest. But
tell me that feels like almost counterproductive to you racking
up your billable hours.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So how do you.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Compromise those two schools of thought of you got to
make your money, but also you want it to be
easier for people.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
I think there's always going to be a complex, difficult
situations and divorce for which people need attorneys. If a
family lives in California and mom wants to move to
New York and they've got little kids, it's going to
be very difficult to work that out. You can't do
week on, week off or two two five, you know,
custody schedule.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
But for the most part, especially I think young people.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
I think people that have uncomplicated situations, like you were saying,
if there aren't kids, or if there are kids, and
you just really know we've already kind of worked the
custody part out. I think it lends itself to it,
and so yes, I have had some of my colleagues say,
you're totally cannibalizing our industry.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
What are you doing? But I don't think that's true.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I really do think that people now are dating online,
they're banking online, they're shopping online, they do their taxes online.
If you can make it simpler for them to go
through this process and do it that way, I think
it's better for everybody. And I think that, like you
were saying, Chris, as a child of divorce, I don't
know how that was for you, but I would like
to see a generation of kids that grow up and go, yeah,
(08:49):
my parents got divorced, but they were both still at
all my birthday parties. They both came to my high
school graduation. They got along because it was simpler and
it made sense. I think that's just a healthier society
to have. And I say to clients all the time,
your conflict earns me money. If you guys can work
out conflict, then you should. And that's just the way
we practice law too.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You can talk to my therapist about how it went, Laura.
It is funny because you, Lauren and I it sounds
terrible that we talk about divorce a lot, but through
this podcast, we talk about relationships, and divorces is a
part of that. In breakups are a part of that.
And there are certain subjects that I'm hoping will continue
to be less taboo. Mental health, suicide, all of these
(09:35):
things that are such a part of our lives that
we ignore and we act like we act like fifty
percent of all marriages don't end divorce. They do, So
why do we have to pretend like this is this
taboo thing that we whisper at dinner parties and we
don't talk about You're right, it should be okay to
talk about it. But again, we don't need to celebrate it.
(09:55):
We don't need to be glad. But at the same time,
it doesn't need to be such a horror finding life
changing event and shamefield and shamefield.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, because it is happening. I mean, that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
It's happening, so we might as well do it more
amicably and more cost effectively. And I think that that's
a really good way of looking. I don't celebrate I
see these people having divorce parties and all that.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It's not really my thing. If that's what you need
to get through it.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Fine, But I just find that, you know, I'm at
an age right now where I have a lot of
friends whose kids are leaving for college, their second kid
or whatever, and so they're empty nesters and they kind
of are looking at each other going, Okay, which road
are we going to take? Because so many people stay
together for the kids, and now they're like, wait a minute,
we have nothing to talk about anymore, or we're not
even you know, in we don't even like the same
(10:41):
things anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Should those people stay together?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But should the people who have kids that aren't leaving
for college stay together? Isn't it healthier for kids to
see two happy parents, even if they're not living under
the same roof.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Then two miserable human beings coexisting? So I do.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I just think taking the taboo out of it is
a really big deal, and I think that's probably one
of the best things about this evolution that we're seeing
about all those subjects, as you said, also abortion, menopause. Yeah,
you know, any of those things will never talk about
and you're like, why it's happening.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It blows my mind that people with carriages, you.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Know, like, why didn't anybody tell me that whatever one
out of three, all of those things, we're bringing them
to the forefront. We're talking about them and now at
divorce dot Com. Giving a sense of community, having other
people that you can talk to and said, yeah, I
went through this, here's what it is. Moms do that
all the time when you give birth and you have
a baby, but nobody ever does it with the other stuff.
And so that I think is a really great thing
(11:38):
to be kind of working through and not celebrating, but
celebrating the sense of community and the ability to communicate
about it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Well, Laura, let's dive into one of those things that
you just hit on, which I love that you brought
this up because Chris and I have friends, probably Chris
for the past few years, and we have even more
friends now in that exact same boat out of something
people don't talk about that much, which is the kids
are leaving and where does that leave us? And as
(12:08):
someone who is having that experience in your personal life
but also has seen so many divorces, I want you
to answer this. I don't know if you will. What
would you advise people, like, would you say, if you're
having problems, don't stay together? For the kids, like go
your separate ways sooner, or is it better stay together
for the kids and then go your separate ways when
(12:29):
they're in college.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I think, I mean, I have to say, we really
really put a lot on kids. When I have two
kids and they have two different dads, and I wasn't
married to either of the dads. But my older son,
who's now just finished his freshman year in college, is
going to start his second year in college. His dad
and I split up when he was two, and so
when he started kindergarten at five, we were I think
(12:55):
probably one of the only families that weren't living under
the same roof. Okay, time he got to fourth grade,
it was like forty percent of the kids. And it
was funny because the kids would always come talk to
him and say, what's it going to be like when
my dad moves out? And Luke would be like, dude,
it's great. I got two iPads and sometimes I can
tell my mom that I'm allowed to stay up later
(13:16):
at my dad's. And he said, and he would say,
it was this a little kid. He's like, they both
love you and and it's just not that they just
don't want to live in the same house anymore, but
then you get to go on two different trips at
winter break.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
But it was really sweet.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
And the administration of the school is like whenever we
have a kid that's parents are getting divorced, instead of
sending them a school counselor we just.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Have them going to the Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
But I think I think we underestimate, particularly today, and
I may be speaking to like big metropolitan cities like
Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York. Maybe the stats
are lower in other states.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
But first of all, kids.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Are very, very malleable. They'll figure it out whatever. They
basically just care about themselves and they need to know
that their parents love them. So if we may get
okay for them, it's going to be okay for them.
And I think it's going to be more okay for
them than if we're together and we're arguing or there's
this resentment. I also think, and you touched on it,
mental health therapy, communicating and continuing with that communication. I
(14:15):
think it's really important if couples do it before they
get married. And I'll give another plug two to a
company called Hello Prenup, which is doing what we do
at divorce dot Com. With online prenups, whether you get
or need a prenup, or not having the kind of difficult, unromantic,
unsexy conversations about what your expectations are in your relationship,
(14:36):
in your marriage, in your parent co parenting style is
so important and I think if you do that throughout
the marriage, you have a good chance of eighteen twenty
years later when all the kids have left the nest,
looking at that person going, remember we always said we
wanted to do this or how about this? And again
people go in different directions. I get it, maybe there's
a work problem or maybe there's a health issue or whatever.
(15:00):
But if you're kind of doing these constant check ins,
and you're doing them also when things are good in therapy,
like you don't have to go to therapy when there's
an issue. If you're doing and when things are good,
then you develop the tools to be able to communicate
and deal with.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Them better when things are not good, and then you
can either work through it or go.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
You know what, I love you, I will see you
next Thanksgiving, because well, I'm sure we're going to do
it all together.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
But I'm out. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
I want to go travel the world, or I want
to take you know, I don't know architecture lessons if
they have such a thing. You know, just I want
to do my thing, and you're kind of entrenched in
your thing here, and we're going to go our separate ways.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
But we love each other and we're still a family.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
You know. It's like this with many forms of law,
but I would think particularly divorce, you as a lawyer
become much more of it. Also a therapist, a friend
of person to lean on, because I find that when
people are going through divorce, they also want to talk
and they want to be heard. And so how do
(16:06):
you weigh that of being Okay, I am here to
help you legally, but at the same time, you're asking
me a lot of personal questions, and you know, things
get vindictive of you screw him or screw her. I
want the dog and the cat. You know, how do
you help navigate the emotional side of this?
Speaker 4 (16:24):
We basically tell them like, this is a business transaction, okay,
and I'm not your friend, and I think you should definitely,
you know, rebond and reach out and have a support group,
whether that's family members or girlfriends that you or book
club people that you can go have a glass of
startin day with and talk to It's.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
More than women, but the men too. They have a
different way.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Of communicating that they want to discuss things and sometimes
they're not comfortable. They don't have a support group, they
don't have a bunch of friends. But I think it's
very important as a professional to say, especially at my
hourly rates, I'm not qualified to talk to you about
like your feelings, you know or you know, I just
you don't want to pay me. As I said, I
was married once, very briefly in the nineties. I've got
(17:06):
two kids from two different guys. I'm a hot mess.
You think I want to be giving you therapey to
get so we try to really and you know, we
have a lot of young attorneys at the firm that
I'm trying to teach how to do it. And I say, look,
you're not their friend. You don't want to build them,
you don't want to talk to them about this kind
of stuff. But you also do want to be compassionate.
You want to share things with them, and it will
also give you an insight into how the case is
(17:28):
going to go. Also, quite frankly, it's why I continue
to do this, this fascinating study in human nature and
people's stories and how it works. That's what keeps me going.
It's amazing to hear people's stories from all different walks
of life and ages and cyc economics and all that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Looking at all the cases you've seen, what are ways
to prevent divorce? If any? What do you look at
them and think, as your lawyer therapist self, Here's what
I wish this couple would have done. Here's what maybe
would have made it work.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I think communication, I think community, and I think a
sense of partnership. Another thing that we see, of course,
big factor is financial money, and what we see also
less now, but certainly this is a constant women kind
of abdicating their financial responsibility. I have smart, sophisticated, cool
(18:19):
women coming in here that say, I'm so embarrassed. I
have no idea what we have, what we earn. You know,
in California it's community property. So for twenty years, my
husband's been the breadwinner. I don't know what he makes.
I signed the taxi turns, but I don't know, and
I feel like an idiot. I don't even have credit
cards that are just my name, but they're his account.
(18:39):
That happens a lot, and when I speak with young women,
I'm like, don't do that. Go once a quarter to
the business manager. You know, the woman that sneak the
shopping bags in before he gets home from work.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
That's fine if that's what you need to do, but.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
You need to be a partner because if you're not
experiencing the ups and downs, he doesn't have the same
level of partner respect for you and you. Also, you're
not really in it together. And I would say the
same thing about kids. Both of you should have a
hand in raising kids. And you know that expression in
Laurenen life gets in the way. I think that's probably
what happened to this couple you're talking about, and it's
(19:11):
probably way easier said than done. But if you don't
want to end up twenty years hence going who even
are you?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Like?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Right, have those check ins they have parts and each
I'm sure there's therapists that would say have a date night,
ea tweak, make sure you keep the sex a life.
I don't know that stuff sounds good, but to me,
that level of communication and not delegating responsibilities to one
person only, I think is important because I think you
want to have some skin in the game in the
(19:39):
things that you would otherwise think would just be his.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Or her, her or her whatever responsibility.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Because it helps too with the we always think of
the bad, but it helps with knowing the stresses as well,
Like if if you're the only person that's financially literate,
you're the only one that's feeling the pain of the
bills of everything going on. And same thing with kids,
if you're not deal with the kids day to day
like she is or like he is. Again, you got
to share in all of it, the good, the bad,
(20:05):
the ugly, and that just helps you become closer.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, you're living in two different worlds if you're not.
I'm not saying you know you both have to take
on all responsibility for everything, but I think that awareness helps,
Like my parents were always really just aware of what
the other was doing. On that note, Laura, I wanted
to ask you, and I'm sure people ask you this
all the time, but I saw and I won't be
able to remember who it was, but a divorce attorney
(20:28):
on TikTok a few months ago, and she said, I'm
going to ask the question that i'm or I'm going
to answer the question I'm afraid to answer. People always
ask me what is the number one reason people get divorced?
And she said, the reason I'm afraid to answer it
is because my answer is the number one reason is
when there's a stay at home mom and a dad
(20:49):
at work because they're living these two different lives. Do
you agree with that? And then of course I'm going
to ask you what your number one reason is.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't agree with that.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
I think that's a pretty broad generalization, and I think
that there are plenty of stay at home parents and
working parents that can make it work. I think the
main reason is a lack of communication. I think if
you're not communicating and checking in, regardless of what the
financial disparities are, I think that that's going to be
(21:19):
a problem, and that will then lead to affairs or addictions,
all those other things that go. Oh, the main reason
is adultery, or the main reason is it's not. It
leads to these resentments because you're not getting things out
and talking them through, and if he's not getting it,
you know, at home, then he's going to get it
somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
You have all these people that have what do they called.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Platonic You know work relationships, but they're emailing all day long.
Do a co worker that they've got this relationship with
and I have spouses going, why does he want to
be communicating with her and not me? Well, that's just
what he's gotten used to. So I think it's a
failure to communicate. Like cool hand, Luke, what we got
here is what we have here.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Is a failure to communicate. To help us start this
process if we are struggling with this, even if we're
just trying to, you know, dip our toe in the
pool and figure out about divorce and maybe a way
out for a man or woman. Give us the steps
and the test.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
For most people, it's the first time. So what's the
first thing you do if you want to because.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Big it's a big scary thing, you know, like, oh
my god, my entire life and my house and my
everything just being ripped apart. So can you kind of
slowly and I hate to say, let's piece this together
for people to make it easy, but that's really what
I want to do.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So what I would do first? And by the way,
it's interesting that you said it's the first time. Did
you know that the divorce rate for second marriages is
much higher than the divorce rate for first marriages, and
for even righer. It's kind of like bungee jumping, like
if you've done it once, all right, it just why not?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It feels easier.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
We've almost made it a full year.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Laura, what's the number one reason for divorce in second marriages?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Because it's easy to get divorced.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I don't read a second time.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I don't know those stats. I just know that, like,
for whatever reason, that leap is not as difficult. The
first thing I would do one hundred percent is educate yourself.
And now we can do that so much more easily
than we could fifty years ago. You'd actually have to
sneak in and make it an appointment with a divorce
attorney or whatever.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You don't really have to do that. Now. You can
go online.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
You can go online in your state to the state
bar website, find out what the law is. Do you live
in a community property state or an equitable distribution state?
Start kind of educating yourself about divorce and what it
might look like for you. And we have tools on
divorce dot com, but there's also a ton of other
informational websites where you can get divorced. Just type in
divorce near me or divorce in California or wherever you are.
(23:43):
So that's one thing I would really that kind of
knowledge is power, and if you're feeling more powerful about
it was another reason why we loved the idea of
online divorce. If you're giving people the ability to do
it themselves, then that carries over into their next chapter,
which is being the master of your own If you're
completely leaving it to a lawyer, you never quite know
(24:03):
exactly what happened. So I would educate, educate, educate. The
other thing you need to kind of educate and get
up to speed about. And this is what I would
say is step two taking kids out of the equation
for a minute. The four corners of divorce are going
to be what you have and what you owe. Okay,
so your your house, and then the mortgage on your house,
(24:25):
your car, and then and then what you earn and
what you spend.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
So those are the four corners.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
And here in California, we've got what's called a declaration
of disclosure that has a schedule of assets and debts,
which is what you have and what you owe, and
then an income and expense schedule, what you earn, and
what you spend.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Those four things are very important to know.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
And even if you are the breadwinner, often you're not
the person that knows that information. So you've got to
kind of get deep in knowing that because that's going
to help you figure out what it costs you to live,
what you're each going to end up with, how it
ends up, what kind of support will be.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Paid to you or be paid by you.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Those are the things that you should be thinking about
as you're educating yourself of how to apply your situation
to the actual law. And then I would go either
on a website or see if you can get a
consultation with an attorney. Most attorneys will have the first
consultation for free because they kind of they want to
want to sign you.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So you have a meeting with a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
You may want to meet with a couple and see
which of them has like the best kind of you know,
vibe with you, and somebody that you feel that's going
to listen to you and see how it works. It's
interesting since COVID, we don't have as many people like
coming into the office for that first meeting because now
you can do it via zoom or whatever. So, but
I I think if I were going through it, I
probably want to have a face to face with somebody,
(25:42):
especially if you're charging me over.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
A thousand dollars an hour. But that's not obviously, And
then I would I mean, I don't know where in
this the the idea of.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Your spouse fits in, but I would definitely, I think
have even if you are not, you know, couples counseling.
I would see if there was somebody that either the
lawyer or a family member somebody can recommend to go
sit and have a session, not for the purpose of
getting back together, but for the purpose of figuring how
to separate. What are the boundaries? This isn't legal stuff.
(26:13):
This is more like are we dating people? Is this
a separation or is this more like really just taking
a break?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
What's happening? When do we tell them? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:22):
And I think a third party can be very helpful,
even if it's just a crash deaf dummy in the room,
having someone else there is kind of it keeps a copasetic.
Those would be the first three steps that I would say.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That was incredibly helpful. What about biggest mistakes people make?
To avoid. What are the pitfalls you see people go
into over and over again.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Before you send a text or an email, give it
a minute. I think people send so many things to
their exes or about to be x's that then come
back and bite them.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Think about it.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
I mean, remember, this is a person, like your lawyers are,
You're never going to see them again, Okay. This is
a person that, particularly if you have kids, you're gonna
know for the rest of your life. And as angry
as you might be at them at the moment, things
that you say will have an impact and they won't
let you forget them if they're ugly, and they may
be used in court too, if it's something like I'm
going to kill you all of a sudden, You've got
(27:18):
a domestic violence restraining order against you because you made
a threat. So I really like way to be Try
not to say things. Remember that this person a at one
point you loved them, You had sex with them, you like,
held their hand and slept with them in bed. See
if you can get back to that, and if that
really is just too painful, really do think about the fact, partrickularly,
if you've got kids, that this is someone they're not
(27:39):
going away going to It's not It's like no other
kind of lawsuit, a fender bender, a landlord tenant, a
slip and fall. You're never gonna see those people again.
This person is going to be in your life. Keep
that in mind. Not keeping that in mind, I would say,
is the biggest mistake.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Everything canon will be used against you in the court.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Along.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
We all put a lot in writing very quickly and
easily these days. And on that note, Laura, earlier you'd
mentioned no fault states, So correct me on how I
might be interpreting that. Do you think no fault divorce
is a good thing? Yes, okay, just makes it easier,
takes all the drama out of it, takes.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
All the drama.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I mean remember back in like whatever it was, the
forties or fifties, people were like slamming into hotel rooms
with the flash photography and people were holding like think
how with photoshop these days you could just create evidence
this something happening. I also, and I didn't realize this
until recently when I started seeing stuff coming up about
how states were going to try to.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Reverse no fault divorce.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I guess it's very very bad for women because if
women are trying to extricate themselves from a relationship, and
they have to prove some kind of fault. It's more
difficult for them to get out other than just saying
irreconcilable differences. Being a child of the seventies, eighties and
the lawyer of the nineties and two thousands, that didn't
occur to me. But apparently that's a very big ticket
(28:58):
item that we have to think of about as women
and as a society that may have you know, what's
happening right now with reproductive rights and all that no
fault divorce going away would not be a good thing
for women's rights at all.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Such a good point, and what you just mentioned, I
hadn't even considered that that as we move into the
age of AI, people could start fabricating things and then
you've got to analyze everything. Are you seeing that start
to happen already?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
No, I'm not saying that we will be one of
the last ones to switch over.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
California's not go anywhere.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
But again, like New York was one of the last
states to switch to fault divorce. So even when I
was practicing, I would still see like if I had
you know, colleagues. In New York, you would still see
declarations written by clients just like the list of horribles
that their spouse did to them. Our judges would always
be like, Okay, I get it, he's a bad guy.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I don't need to hear mar getting divorced for a reason.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah. Yeah, the judge is exhausted listening to all the
things that we think are so important. No, no, no,
But on page seventy two, look at what he said
to me sixty years ago. Do you what trends have
you seen over the years? I mean, you grew up
with your dad as a divorce attorney, and then now
you've been doing it, as you said, for decades, and
we've seen social media come up in the last fifteen years.
(30:13):
What kind of big trends have you seen, good or bad?
Especially with the rise of technology and how rapidly it's
moved over the past fifteen years.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
We're I mean, I think the biggest trend and the
best trend is just the use of resolution oriented tools,
whether it's mediation. There's something called collaborative divorce. We have
a lot of retired judicial officers who are now working
as mediators, and I think people really do, even if
they're not doing it by themselves online, they really do
(30:44):
want to have some kind of presence in the resolution
process rather than just leaving it all to two lawyers
who are going to work it out, and even worse,
leaving it to a judge who doesn't know you, doesn't
know your kids. It's going to make decisions that made
not necessarily be.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Cool with you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
So if you guys can do it even better, and
now we see that you can do it remotely, we
do zoom mediations. I think that's been one of the
biggest and again California is at the forefront of that,
but most states are really leaning towards that because everybody
realizes that that's a.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Better way to go.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Just a few more questions for you, Laurel. Though I
could talk to you forever again, I feel so indebted
to you having helped me handle my divorce.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I know I feel this like kinship between.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
But you know, as I mentioned, so, your father was
a divorce attorney, You then become a divorce attorney. And
now you said, I think you were married briefly at
one point. How has all of this work in divorce
since your childhood affected your own perspective on relationships and marriage.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
I mean, it certainly hasn't made me.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
People are like, oh, you'd never get married, and I
wouldn't get married, but for very different reasons. I don't
frown on marriage. I love a good wedding. I actually
am able to you know, I officiate. I'm officiating a
wedding in October. Like I love it. I love love.
I think it's great. I just would love people to
be a little bit more cognizant of the contract nature
(32:19):
of what they're doing when they're getting married. And as
for relationships, like I said, I don't I'm not jaded
by what I do. People say, well, you're divorce lawyer.
I'm not any more jaded than anybody else that lives
in this society and sees what goes down. I mean
I have to watch TV for twenty hours and be like,
oh my god, possibly do is in fact, because I
actually see the good in people and why things happen,
(32:42):
it may make me even less jaded. I just think
it's fascinating to watch people and how and they give
and take in relationships. Every relationship is a contract, and
every relationship has certain terms and things that are non negotiable,
and I think if you're able to be really clear
about that, then your relationship.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Will likely last longer and be more fruitful for each
of you.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
And I don't mean, I don't just mean in terms
of romantic relationships.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I think friendships.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I think business partnerships, and I think that's really important
to really be able to see the other person's perspective
and then communicate about it and say, well, is that
what you meant? So, I mean it's affected me as
a parent and.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
How I raise my kids.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
It's affected me as a partner with the others in
my law firm, as my father's daughter, all of those things,
and I think it's actually been helpful. I mean, you know,
it helps me kind of sort things through and process
them as I'm doing, as I'm going about my daily business.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, you just said something we always say, which is
we love love. And I absolutely love the idea of
you officiating a wedding, Like who gets to say that?
Now my divorce attorney to officiate.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
This is the if you go to divorce dot com,
that is the platinum level. She will do the wedding,
but they also be there for you throughout theatry.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So your new wedding. She will officiate, Yes, that was
the diamond package.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
She's also just taking down evidence as she's going yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And she'll record the wedding in case this one goes poorly.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Actually, there's been a few people that I've set up
clients that have gotten divorced, and then the two people
that were my clients, I haven't done it, but they've
both called and said, do you know this person who
heard you represented that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I'm like yeah. They're like, I want to go out
with them? What do you think? I'm like, yeah, I
think that'd be good.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
And now America, wellzing matchmaker, it's literally a lifelong love afterdivorce.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Dot com is the new website.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well but you know, but I'm sure you've seen the
super toxic cases as well. When you're in those really
tough situations. Is there are there any things that you
say to pull people out of like, you know, say
they just won't even speak to each other. What do
you do in those moments? And are things ever so
toxic that you drop a client?
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Yes, things can be so that when clients have lost
the ability to be reasonable and I can't pull them
out of it, That's what I might say, I think
we're going to part way. If somebody says, well, I'm
the mom and I should have the kids one hundred
percent of the time and you can see them on weekends,
I'm like, that's really not how it works. So if
that's the kind of mindset, we will part ways. There
will be somebody else that will probably do their bidding.
(35:09):
I don't think they'll be successful, but they'll tell them
what they want to hear. And remember, in the entertainment industry,
there's plenty of people that just want to be told.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
They're used to being told what they want to hear.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Sometimes those people will come back and be like, I
wish I would have listened to you, because you were
giving it to me straight and I didn't want to
hear that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
At that point, you have represented countless a list celebrities,
and I'm not going to ask you anything specific about
them because I know you won't say anything anyway.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Attorney claimp Yes.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But my question is, what would because there's this insatiable appetite,
especially when there's the divorce, the celebrity divorce, what is
the thing that would surprise us about in talking in
general broadstrokes here about the celebrity as they go through
their divorce. Is it just the they are just like us,
they are lonely, they're scared. What is it that would surprise.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I don't know if it would surprise you guys, but
it surprises a lot of people when I say exactly
that they're just like us, they're scared. They it may
be the difference between like, Oh, who's going to go
to the firm holiday party with me? And who's going
to walk the red carpet with me at the Oscars?
What will they say? People talk about me? What is
my How does my pr person get involved in this
and spin it so that I don't look like an apple?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But really it is the same.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
They are, they are scared, they're it's sad, it's a
sad time. They want to they don't know what is
on the other side. And then add into it this
whole element of public perception and shodden for it.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
A lot of people want.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
To see famous people fail because it makes them feel
better about themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Nothing better than helping people rise up and then watching
them fall and crushing.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Them exactly, I think, But I really, and for the
most part, I really do think that you know, It's
just it may be a different number of zeros on
that income and expense declaration, but it is the same
where am I still going to be able to fly
private versus am I scared take the bus to work?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
It's just yeah, but there is that added layer. And
I know people are like, oh, they asked for it,
but I remember, even on a much smaller scale, when
I went through it, you know, having it splashed on
the late night shows and on the tabloids, and you're
dealing with something that's horrible anyway, and you're just trying
to protect your kids and your family and do what's right,
and then you're also dealing with the larger picture. And
(37:23):
so there is that added layer, whether you like.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It or not.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
And what I think I've seen in the entertainment industry
is with that added layer, it does it has begun
to promote better behavior because people don't want to be splashed,
So they will keep it quieter, they will keep it
more amicable.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
They will do it.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
By virtue of mediator so that it is more private,
so that it doesn't you know, show up in a
court pleating he did this, he did this, And they
will whether it's real or not, they will fake it
till they make it in terms of joint vacations and
joint birthday parties and whatever else. And what I have
found is a lot of those people go, yeah, I
was kind of just going to the pumpkin patch for
(37:59):
the photo ops so I look like a good guy.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
But it was.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Actually, we had a nice tame. We decided we're going
to do that for Thanksgiving. So again, fake it. And
then what happens is people who read the magazine that
see that divorced couple at the pumpkin patch with their
kid for the photo op, go oh, we can do that,
And again an evolution of divorced couples making it work
for their kids, for them, for the betterment of humanity.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Will Brad Pitt and Angelina Julie ever actually get divorced?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Oh my gosh, Well do you represent either of them?
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Laura, Oh, no comment.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
No comment that that's I just it's I think they're
now getting divorced longer than they were married. That's got
to be one of the longer celebrity devorce.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I do always forget that they're still in the throes
of it when you hear it.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Well, Laura you may have just hit on it, but yeah,
one thing I wanted to ask you because I think
maybe everybody at home who's not famous but could use
the advice. Because look, when anybody gets divorced in their community,
it's a scandal, right, It's a topic, it's a talk
of the town, a gossipable moment. How do you advise
celebrity clients from the get go on how to handle
(39:04):
what is coming their way with the media firestorm, with
the headlines that are going to be splashed about their divorce.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Less is more, it's a news cycle. Let it cycle through.
The bigger you are, the longer it'll last. But if
you contribute to it, it will go longer, and it
will necessitate a response from the other side, and then
the other way and the other way. And I deal
with pr people all the time, and they know they
they'll say, I know what you're gonna say, but and
(39:32):
I say, don't respond, Just don't respond.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And it's easier said than done. I've given that advice
as well on other topics from like the hardest thing
in the world is to just keep your mouth shut,
not defend yourself. You want to scream from the rooftops,
you're not a bad guy or girl or whatever. But yeah,
the best thing you can do is just not add
fuel to the fire.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, because what's hard is it becomes he said she said,
or he said he said, or whatever that you just
end up defending yourself being like no, no, no, they
were wrong, and then you look crazy. Yeah, Laura, I
tell us if you can. I'm just curious because Chris
and I we've talked a lot about how, you know,
we people who have We know people who have gotten
(40:11):
way too caught up in all that he said, she said,
and then they end up spending a lot of money
on their divorce. What do you think is the most
amount of money a person's ever spent on a divorce
that you know of?
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Oh my god, you mean just on the fees, not
their assets.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
We just finished a case.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
I gave the closing in on July fifteenth, and it
had been going on.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
The trial itself had.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Been going on since January, on and off, you know,
a couple of days a month. The case started, I
think four and a half years ago, and I believe
that our client, and I'm pretty sure his wife paid more.
But our client's already en curd fees over five million dollars.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Can you imagine, let's just round it up to say
twelve million total in that family that went to Boom Gone.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
So, and just what that money could have been spent
on for, you know, research or whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
It really is.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
It's terrible. It shouldn't go that way. Nothing should ever
take that long. I assure you we tried as hard
as we could on many occasions to get it resolved.
My hope is that when the judge gives her decision,
there will be somewhat of a lawback from the other
party as to why it costs that much. But yeah,
I mean I don't and I'm sure that wasn't the
most expensive one. These were not the wealthiest people we've represented.
(41:29):
This was not the longest litigation we ever did. That's
just an example of how crazy it can get.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Well, Laura, I want to end on because I love you.
Know you're so refreshing in your approach to everything. But
you do have this reputation of being like the go
to person in Hollywood. I mean, I look for entertainment. Tonight,
I went to the La County Courthouse and covered various cases,
and your name always comes up as one of the
most incredible divorce attorneys in existence. So what do you
(41:58):
think that is about you? Like, what makes you the
go to person for people? What do you bring to
the table, Because maybe your answer could help people at
home know what to look for as they're finding a
divorce attorney.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
I think part of it has to do and this
won't help anybody at home. I think part of that
whole thing has to do with the fact that I'm
generally been pretty tight lipped about cases, and of course
that just makes people want more. I'm never somebody that's
going to stand in front of the courthouse and have
a press conference even if our client asks us to.
Our firm policy is we do not discuss any of
our cases.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You have other people that can do that.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
But I also think, I mean, I would like to
think that the reason that I'm the go to, especially
for a lot of their high net worth or celebrity people,
is because either they or their professionals, their reps, their agents,
their business managers, their entertainment attorneys know that I kind
of come from a place of problem solving and reason
and it's never my desire to kind of churn a
(42:53):
case or make it go on for a long time
because I have terrible add I just want to get
onto the next Let's get it ris. That's what I
always tell our younger attorneys. We have to move through this,
be reasonable. And so I think I am a voice
of reason, and I think if you are at home
and you're thinking about it, you really have to approach
your divorce as two parts, like really bifurcated. There is
(43:13):
a business decision that needs to be made about how
to handle your assets and your finances, and then there
is clearly an emotional part of it. And you should
be able to deal with the emotional part with therapy
and counseling and support, and you'll go through all the
grieving of the relationship and all that. But if you
can not have those things commingled, you will come out better.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'll answer that question now. Just in the forty minutes
we've been talking your humanity, your kind, you're thoughtful. It's
I think when people go into this, and again we've
talked a lot about this, and this is my takeaway
after this conversation. People want, you said community a lot.
People just don't want to feel alone. And when you're
going through something so scary like this, having your website,
(43:59):
having an attorney like yourself, Laura Wasser, or somebody who
you can find that has a little humanity that reaches
out to you and you know that they're kind. That helps.
That makes a huge difference. And so like, you know,
I would never describe you, and I'm sure you can
be don't get and I don't want to get on
the wrong side of you, but you know, I would
never describe you. This woman's a pit bull. You know,
(44:20):
she's like she's going to kill or be killed, and
she's going in guns blazing. I find that you have
this empathy about the divorce and about the whole process
that really lends itself to your humanity, and so I
appreciate that it really came out in your conversation today.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
She's incredibly stylish, stunning, stunning, very well dressed, gorgeous hair,
great smile.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I didn't want to say anything in front of my wife,
but I was thinking that the entire time.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Listen, if you're going to be talking to someone for hours,
it's wonderful to speak to someone who's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
And by the way, talking to an talking to a
divorce attorney in the entire time. There's a piece of art,
and I know we're on a podcast. There's a piece
of art over Laura's head that says the end.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Laura, what is that?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
That is such a great piece of art to have
in your office?
Speaker 4 (45:08):
I thought it was really ironic and I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
It is incredibly ironic. Or maybe just say I.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
Love his stuff and he has a lot of like
great freezing on things.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
But I really thought that was the most appropriate for mine.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I don't know if it's ironic or just poignant.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Do we need to add one that says the beginning?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yes, exactly, a smaller one. Laura, thank you so much
for your time, your knowledge, your expertise, and your humanity.
Truly appreciate it. You take care.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
Thanks for having me. Bye bye, Laura.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
This is the most traumatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison Lauren Zema coming to you from the home
office in Austin, Texas. LZ. We're at it again, divorce.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We're talking about divorce, We talk about it. Are we
talking about it too much? I'm talking about divorce and
death a lot in life. Do I need to reel
it in?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Here's the thing, and we're going to get into this
today with our guest Laura Wasser, who is the go
to divorce attorney really in the world. The list of
a listers and els will go into this who she's
represented in just a second. But the reason we do
talk about death, mental health, divorce, these are things that
affect all of us. They will affect all of us
(00:43):
at some point. That's just statistically the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Death is a guarantee and right half of marriages and
a divorce.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Right, whether it's your parents, whether it's a friend, whether
it's happened to you or will happen to you. Divorce
is something that's just it's not taboo. It's something we
can and should talk about. So it's not this huge, looming,
dark disaster out there that's going to envelop us and
swallow us. It's something that we can understand and maybe
(01:11):
avoid if we understand it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So true, and we wanted to talk to people. So
we recently spoke to a divorce coach on the podcast
Tara Eisenheart. If you missed that episode, check it out.
And after speaking to her, we thought, because she was
very clear she does not get into the legalities, and
we thought, so let's bring a lawyer on. And we
wanted to bring the very best of the best. And
what I loved about our conversation with Laura Wasser, which
(01:33):
you're all about to hear, is that she did offer
some tips of, you know, having watched marriages dissolve for
decades in her business, how they could have gone better,
how things maybe could have been saved. So we get
into it all from how a marriage could be saved,
to how to first approach a divorce, to how much
a divorce attorney could really cost you. And Laura has
(01:55):
a resume that is just unparalleled. I've known her name
for years because working an energy tament news you know
the name Laura Wasser. She has represented everybody, Kim Kardashian,
Ryan Reynolds, Anna Faris, Maria Shreiver, Stevie Wonder, just to
name a few. I mean, that's just the tip of
the celebrity client Iceberg. She has numerous accolades under her belt.
(02:18):
A graduate of University of California, she has been a
guest lecturer at multiple law schools. She went to Berkeley,
So she's just incredible and we can't wait to hear
for you to hear a conversation with her. Please welcome
Laura Wasser. Laura, I'm so excited to talk to you.
I used its over easy dot com? Did you for
(02:40):
my divorce?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
And was it?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It was over easy? Absolutely loved it, big fan of yours.
But yeah, we just absolutely loved it. So we're excited
to dive right in with you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, good, Wait, so you know I didn't know this? Yes,
what was so easy about it? Why? Why did you
like this process?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Okay? So I used Laura Wasser's it's over easy dot com,
which Laura now is divorce dot com. Right.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Yes, we were absorbed by divorce dot Com and I
became their chief of divorce Evolution.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Wow, what a business called that comes with the title
of being the chief of divorce Evolution.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I mean, I'm basically just the face of it, their
spokesperson whatever. And I love it because what we had
with that's soverasy and I'm glad that you had a
good time using it. Was it just we didn't have
the funds to like really make a great platform that
was easy. You know, I know divorce law really well.
When we started it, I think I had been doing
(03:38):
it for like twenty years. I've now been doing it
for thirty years. But I'm not a tech person. I
didn't know how to push this button and that goes there.
And I think why we called it It's over Easy,
and why divorce dot Com is so great as you're
going through this really miserable time emotionally, and it shouldn't
be super complicated, you know, legally or technically or whatever.
(03:58):
You should be able to answer certain questions that you
know the app asks you about your situation, plug certain
things in, fill out forms, and have it done. And
I think divorce dot Com does that much better than
It's over Easy did. And I think that both of
those platforms do it better less expensively than you know,
in a lot of instances, having two lawyers getting into
(04:20):
a pissing contest, whatever their past is or anything else.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
This is something that's been in your family, your dad,
now you, and I'm just curious, how has it evolved.
Laura and I have both been through divorces. I'm the
product of a divorce. How have you seen it evolve?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Even in my thirty years of doing it, It's evolved.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
But if you really even go back to like what
I was growing up with and what we were talking
about at the dinner table when I was a kid
and my dad was doing divorce law, I mean, we
now have same sex marriage, which is amazing. It also
means we have same sex divorce. There used to be
a totally different set of rules if same sex couples
split up, had kids, all of that stuff. So that's
been a big change in not in the thirty years
(05:04):
I've been practicing California, but in other states.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We have no fault.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Divorce, which I now am aware that the conservative right
is trying to take away. But no fault divorce means
like when you see irreconcilable differences box checked like it means, yeah,
we know you all have beef with each other. Maybe
he didn't leave put the toilet seat down, or maybe
she cheated on you. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
It's not working out. You're getting divorced, as opposed to
(05:28):
pages and pages of evidence about what he or she did.
That's irrelevant. We're getting divorced, we're moving on. And so
that's been a big change. I think that generally the
legislature in all states is trying to make it simpler
for people to get divorced, even though I think this
country favors marriage, but I do think they're trying to
(05:49):
make it easier because it really is. There's a lot
of red tape, and our court systems are really backed up,
and so what the changes have been good and bad.
Now we do hearing sometimes remote amazing.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
You don't have to get in your car and drive
an hour downtown and charge your client for that. So
there's been really good evolution of it. And I also
think it's less taboo. You know, thirty years ago, nope,
we didn't have podcasts, but nobody wanted to have me
on their TV show talking about divorce. I mean, even
in twenty eighteen when I wrote a book, they said,
we don't really want to talk about divorce.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's so depressing, so true, and Chris and I are
always saying that, Look, we're both sitting here too very
happy divorcees. And I'm not saying divorce isn't hard, but
like divorce can be very positive in your life overall.
And as you're talking to us, Laura, you have a
pile of paperwork on your desk behind you, and I
want to touch on what you just said, but all
(06:39):
the red tape, Chris knows this about me. I have
a paranoia about paperwork. I understand this is a flaw
of mine, and I wish I was better at documents
and paperwork, but that was the biggest thing with me
when I was getting divorced. And luckily, like we didn't
have kids, so there were a lot of things that
we could take out of the conversation. But truly, when
I found your website, it's over easy nowdivorce dot com girl,
(07:02):
I bought the premium package and I said, absolutely, let
me throw just a little bit of money at this
problem to avoid throwing a whole lot of money and
time at this problem. And you guys did make it
so easy. They basically sent us all the paperwork and
we just had to sign like we kind of filled
out a quick questionnaire of what our issues were. We
wanted to split the profit we'd have from selling our house,
(07:24):
and that was basically it, and you guys made it
so easy for us. So I also love hearing you
say as a divorce attorney that you don't want two
lawyers to get in a quote big pissing contest. But
tell me that feels like almost counterproductive to you racking
up your billable hours.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So how do you.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Compromise those two schools of thought of you got to
make your money, but also you want it to be
easier for people.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
I think there's always going to be a complex, difficult
situations and divorce for which people need attorneys. If a
family lives in California and mom wants to move to
New York and they've got little kids, it's going to
be very difficult to work that out. You can't do
week on, week off or two two five, you know,
custody schedule.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
But for the most part, especially I think young people.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
I think people that have uncomplicated situations, like you were saying,
if there aren't kids, or if there are kids, and
you just really know we've already kind of worked the
custody part out. I think it lends itself to it,
and so yes, I have had some of my colleagues say,
you're totally cannibalizing our industry.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
What are you doing? But I don't think that's true.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I really do think that people now are dating online,
they're banking online, they're shopping online, they do their taxes online.
If you can make it simpler for them to go
through this process and do it that way, I think
it's better for everybody. And I think that, like you
were saying, Chris, as a child of divorce, I don't
know how that was for you, but I would like
to see a generation of kids that grow up and go, yeah,
(08:49):
my parents got divorced, but they were both still at
all my birthday parties. They both came to my high
school graduation. They got along because it was simpler and
it made sense. I think that's just a healthier society
to have. And I say to clients all the time,
your conflict earns me money. If you guys can work
out conflict, then you should. And that's just the way
we practice law too.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You can talk to my therapist about how it went, Laura.
It is funny because you, Lauren and I it sounds
terrible that we talk about divorce a lot, but through
this podcast, we talk about relationships, and divorces is a
part of that. In breakups are a part of that.
And there are certain subjects that I'm hoping will continue
to be less taboo. Mental health, suicide, all of these
(09:35):
things that are such a part of our lives that
we ignore and we act like we act like fifty
percent of all marriages don't end divorce. They do, So
why do we have to pretend like this is this
taboo thing that we whisper at dinner parties and we
don't talk about You're right, it should be okay to
talk about it. But again, we don't need to celebrate it.
(09:55):
We don't need to be glad. But at the same time,
it doesn't need to be such a horror finding life
changing event and shamefield and shamefield.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, because it is happening. I mean, that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
It's happening, so we might as well do it more
amicably and more cost effectively. And I think that that's
a really good way of looking. I don't celebrate I
see these people having divorce parties and all that.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It's not really my thing. If that's what you need
to get through it.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Fine, But I just find that, you know, I'm at
an age right now where I have a lot of
friends whose kids are leaving for college, their second kid
or whatever, and so they're empty nesters and they kind
of are looking at each other going, Okay, which road
are we going to take? Because so many people stay
together for the kids, and now they're like, wait a minute,
we have nothing to talk about anymore, or we're not
even you know, in we don't even like the same
(10:41):
things anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Should those people stay together?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But should the people who have kids that aren't leaving
for college stay together? Isn't it healthier for kids to
see two happy parents, even if they're not living under
the same roof.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Then two miserable human beings coexisting? So I do.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I just think taking the taboo out of it is
a really big deal, and I think that's probably one
of the best things about this evolution that we're seeing
about all those subjects, as you said, also abortion, menopause. Yeah,
you know, any of those things will never talk about
and you're like, why it's happening.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It blows my mind that people with carriages, you.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Know, like, why didn't anybody tell me that whatever one
out of three, all of those things, we're bringing them
to the forefront. We're talking about them and now at
divorce dot Com. Giving a sense of community, having other
people that you can talk to and said, yeah, I
went through this, here's what it is. Moms do that
all the time when you give birth and you have
a baby, but nobody ever does it with the other stuff.
And so that I think is a really great thing
(11:38):
to be kind of working through and not celebrating, but
celebrating the sense of community and the ability to communicate
about it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Well, Laura, let's dive into one of those things that
you just hit on, which I love that you brought
this up because Chris and I have friends, probably Chris
for the past few years, and we have even more
friends now in that exact same boat out of something
people don't talk about that much, which is the kids
are leaving and where does that leave us? And as
(12:08):
someone who is having that experience in your personal life
but also has seen so many divorces, I want you
to answer this. I don't know if you will. What
would you advise people, like, would you say, if you're
having problems, don't stay together? For the kids, like go
your separate ways sooner, or is it better stay together
for the kids and then go your separate ways when
(12:29):
they're in college.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I think, I mean, I have to say, we really
really put a lot on kids. When I have two
kids and they have two different dads, and I wasn't
married to either of the dads. But my older son,
who's now just finished his freshman year in college, is
going to start his second year in college. His dad
and I split up when he was two, and so
when he started kindergarten at five, we were I think
(12:55):
probably one of the only families that weren't living under
the same roof. Okay, time he got to fourth grade,
it was like forty percent of the kids. And it
was funny because the kids would always come talk to
him and say, what's it going to be like when
my dad moves out? And Luke would be like, dude,
it's great. I got two iPads and sometimes I can
tell my mom that I'm allowed to stay up later
(13:16):
at my dad's. And he said, and he would say,
it was this a little kid. He's like, they both
love you and and it's just not that they just
don't want to live in the same house anymore, but
then you get to go on two different trips at
winter break.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
But it was really sweet.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
And the administration of the school is like whenever we
have a kid that's parents are getting divorced, instead of
sending them a school counselor we just.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Have them going to the Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
But I think I think we underestimate, particularly today, and
I may be speaking to like big metropolitan cities like
Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York. Maybe the stats
are lower in other states.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
But first of all, kids.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Are very, very malleable. They'll figure it out whatever. They
basically just care about themselves and they need to know
that their parents love them. So if we may get
okay for them, it's going to be okay for them.
And I think it's going to be more okay for
them than if we're together and we're arguing or there's
this resentment. I also think, and you touched on it,
mental health therapy, communicating and continuing with that communication. I
(14:15):
think it's really important if couples do it before they
get married. And I'll give another plug two to a
company called Hello Prenup, which is doing what we do
at divorce dot Com. With online prenups, whether you get
or need a prenup, or not having the kind of difficult, unromantic,
unsexy conversations about what your expectations are in your relationship,
(14:36):
in your marriage, in your parent co parenting style is
so important and I think if you do that throughout
the marriage, you have a good chance of eighteen twenty
years later when all the kids have left the nest,
looking at that person going, remember we always said we
wanted to do this or how about this? And again
people go in different directions. I get it, maybe there's
a work problem or maybe there's a health issue or whatever.
(15:00):
But if you're kind of doing these constant check ins,
and you're doing them also when things are good in therapy,
like you don't have to go to therapy when there's
an issue. If you're doing and when things are good,
then you develop the tools to be able to communicate
and deal with.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Them better when things are not good, and then you
can either work through it or go.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
You know what, I love you, I will see you
next Thanksgiving, because well, I'm sure we're going to do
it all together.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
But I'm out. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
I want to go travel the world, or I want
to take you know, I don't know architecture lessons if
they have such a thing. You know, just I want
to do my thing, and you're kind of entrenched in
your thing here, and we're going to go our separate ways.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
But we love each other and we're still a family.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
You know. It's like this with many forms of law,
but I would think particularly divorce, you as a lawyer
become much more of it. Also a therapist, a friend
of person to lean on, because I find that when
people are going through divorce, they also want to talk
and they want to be heard. And so how do
(16:06):
you weigh that of being Okay, I am here to
help you legally, but at the same time, you're asking
me a lot of personal questions, and you know, things
get vindictive of you screw him or screw her. I
want the dog and the cat. You know, how do
you help navigate the emotional side of this?
Speaker 4 (16:24):
We basically tell them like, this is a business transaction, okay,
and I'm not your friend, and I think you should definitely,
you know, rebond and reach out and have a support group,
whether that's family members or girlfriends that you or book
club people that you can go have a glass of
startin day with and talk to It's.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
More than women, but the men too. They have a
different way.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Of communicating that they want to discuss things and sometimes
they're not comfortable. They don't have a support group, they
don't have a bunch of friends. But I think it's
very important as a professional to say, especially at my
hourly rates, I'm not qualified to talk to you about
like your feelings, you know or you know, I just
you don't want to pay me. As I said, I
was married once, very briefly in the nineties. I've got
(17:06):
two kids from two different guys. I'm a hot mess.
You think I want to be giving you therapey to
get so we try to really and you know, we
have a lot of young attorneys at the firm that
I'm trying to teach how to do it. And I say, look,
you're not their friend. You don't want to build them,
you don't want to talk to them about this kind
of stuff. But you also do want to be compassionate.
You want to share things with them, and it will
also give you an insight into how the case is
(17:28):
going to go. Also, quite frankly, it's why I continue
to do this, this fascinating study in human nature and
people's stories and how it works. That's what keeps me going.
It's amazing to hear people's stories from all different walks
of life and ages and cyc economics and all that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Looking at all the cases you've seen, what are ways
to prevent divorce? If any? What do you look at
them and think, as your lawyer therapist self, Here's what
I wish this couple would have done. Here's what maybe
would have made it work.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I think communication, I think community, and I think a
sense of partnership. Another thing that we see, of course,
big factor is financial money, and what we see also
less now, but certainly this is a constant women kind
of abdicating their financial responsibility. I have smart, sophisticated, cool
(18:19):
women coming in here that say, I'm so embarrassed. I
have no idea what we have, what we earn. You know,
in California it's community property. So for twenty years, my
husband's been the breadwinner. I don't know what he makes.
I signed the taxi turns, but I don't know, and
I feel like an idiot. I don't even have credit
cards that are just my name, but they're his account.
(18:39):
That happens a lot, and when I speak with young women,
I'm like, don't do that. Go once a quarter to
the business manager. You know, the woman that sneak the
shopping bags in before he gets home from work.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
That's fine if that's what you need to do, but.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
You need to be a partner because if you're not
experiencing the ups and downs, he doesn't have the same
level of partner respect for you and you. Also, you're
not really in it together. And I would say the
same thing about kids. Both of you should have a
hand in raising kids. And you know that expression in
Laurenen life gets in the way. I think that's probably
what happened to this couple you're talking about, and it's
(19:11):
probably way easier said than done. But if you don't
want to end up twenty years hence going who even
are you?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Like?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Right, have those check ins they have parts and each
I'm sure there's therapists that would say have a date night,
ea tweak, make sure you keep the sex a life.
I don't know that stuff sounds good, but to me,
that level of communication and not delegating responsibilities to one
person only, I think is important because I think you
want to have some skin in the game in the
(19:39):
things that you would otherwise think would just be his.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Or her, her or her whatever responsibility.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Because it helps too with the we always think of
the bad, but it helps with knowing the stresses as well,
Like if if you're the only person that's financially literate,
you're the only one that's feeling the pain of the
bills of everything going on. And same thing with kids,
if you're not deal with the kids day to day
like she is or like he is. Again, you got
to share in all of it, the good, the bad,
(20:05):
the ugly, and that just helps you become closer.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, you're living in two different worlds if you're not.
I'm not saying you know you both have to take
on all responsibility for everything, but I think that awareness helps,
Like my parents were always really just aware of what
the other was doing. On that note, Laura, I wanted
to ask you, and I'm sure people ask you this
all the time, but I saw and I won't be
able to remember who it was, but a divorce attorney
(20:28):
on TikTok a few months ago, and she said, I'm
going to ask the question that i'm or I'm going
to answer the question I'm afraid to answer. People always
ask me what is the number one reason people get divorced?
And she said, the reason I'm afraid to answer it
is because my answer is the number one reason is
when there's a stay at home mom and a dad
(20:49):
at work because they're living these two different lives. Do
you agree with that? And then of course I'm going
to ask you what your number one reason is.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't agree with that.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
I think that's a pretty broad generalization, and I think
that there are plenty of stay at home parents and
working parents that can make it work. I think the
main reason is a lack of communication. I think if
you're not communicating and checking in, regardless of what the
financial disparities are, I think that that's going to be
(21:19):
a problem, and that will then lead to affairs or addictions,
all those other things that go. Oh, the main reason
is adultery, or the main reason is it's not. It
leads to these resentments because you're not getting things out
and talking them through, and if he's not getting it,
you know, at home, then he's going to get it
somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
You have all these people that have what do they called.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Platonic You know work relationships, but they're emailing all day long.
Do a co worker that they've got this relationship with
and I have spouses going, why does he want to
be communicating with her and not me? Well, that's just
what he's gotten used to. So I think it's a
failure to communicate. Like cool hand, Luke, what we got
here is what we have here.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Is a failure to communicate. To help us start this
process if we are struggling with this, even if we're
just trying to, you know, dip our toe in the
pool and figure out about divorce and maybe a way
out for a man or woman. Give us the steps
and the test.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
For most people, it's the first time. So what's the
first thing you do if you want to because.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Big it's a big scary thing, you know, like, oh
my god, my entire life and my house and my
everything just being ripped apart. So can you kind of
slowly and I hate to say, let's piece this together
for people to make it easy, but that's really what
I want to do.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So what I would do first? And by the way,
it's interesting that you said it's the first time. Did
you know that the divorce rate for second marriages is
much higher than the divorce rate for first marriages, and
for even righer. It's kind of like bungee jumping, like
if you've done it once, all right, it just why not?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It feels easier.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
We've almost made it a full year.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Laura, what's the number one reason for divorce in second marriages?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Because it's easy to get divorced.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I don't read a second time.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I don't know those stats. I just know that, like,
for whatever reason, that leap is not as difficult. The
first thing I would do one hundred percent is educate yourself.
And now we can do that so much more easily
than we could fifty years ago. You'd actually have to
sneak in and make it an appointment with a divorce
attorney or whatever.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You don't really have to do that. Now. You can
go online.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
You can go online in your state to the state
bar website, find out what the law is. Do you live
in a community property state or an equitable distribution state?
Start kind of educating yourself about divorce and what it
might look like for you. And we have tools on
divorce dot com, but there's also a ton of other
informational websites where you can get divorced. Just type in
divorce near me or divorce in California or wherever you are.
(23:43):
So that's one thing I would really that kind of
knowledge is power, and if you're feeling more powerful about
it was another reason why we loved the idea of
online divorce. If you're giving people the ability to do
it themselves, then that carries over into their next chapter,
which is being the master of your own If you're
completely leaving it to a lawyer, you never quite know
(24:03):
exactly what happened. So I would educate, educate, educate. The
other thing you need to kind of educate and get
up to speed about. And this is what I would
say is step two taking kids out of the equation
for a minute. The four corners of divorce are going
to be what you have and what you owe. Okay,
so your your house, and then the mortgage on your house,
(24:25):
your car, and then and then what you earn and
what you spend.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
So those are the four corners.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
And here in California, we've got what's called a declaration
of disclosure that has a schedule of assets and debts,
which is what you have and what you owe, and
then an income and expense schedule, what you earn, and
what you spend.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Those four things are very important to know.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
And even if you are the breadwinner, often you're not
the person that knows that information. So you've got to
kind of get deep in knowing that because that's going
to help you figure out what it costs you to live,
what you're each going to end up with, how it
ends up, what kind of support will be.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Paid to you or be paid by you.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Those are the things that you should be thinking about
as you're educating yourself of how to apply your situation
to the actual law. And then I would go either
on a website or see if you can get a
consultation with an attorney. Most attorneys will have the first
consultation for free because they kind of they want to
want to sign you.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So you have a meeting with a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
You may want to meet with a couple and see
which of them has like the best kind of you know,
vibe with you, and somebody that you feel that's going
to listen to you and see how it works. It's
interesting since COVID, we don't have as many people like
coming into the office for that first meeting because now
you can do it via zoom or whatever. So, but
I I think if I were going through it, I
probably want to have a face to face with somebody,
(25:42):
especially if you're charging me over.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
A thousand dollars an hour. But that's not obviously, And
then I would I mean, I don't know where in
this the the idea of.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Your spouse fits in, but I would definitely, I think
have even if you are not, you know, couples counseling.
I would see if there was somebody that either the
lawyer or a family member somebody can recommend to go
sit and have a session, not for the purpose of
getting back together, but for the purpose of figuring how
to separate. What are the boundaries? This isn't legal stuff.
(26:13):
This is more like are we dating people? Is this
a separation or is this more like really just taking
a break?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
What's happening? When do we tell them? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:22):
And I think a third party can be very helpful,
even if it's just a crash deaf dummy in the room,
having someone else there is kind of it keeps a copasetic.
Those would be the first three steps that I would say.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That was incredibly helpful. What about biggest mistakes people make?
To avoid. What are the pitfalls you see people go
into over and over again.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Before you send a text or an email, give it
a minute. I think people send so many things to
their exes or about to be x's that then come
back and bite them.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Think about it.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
I mean, remember, this is a person, like your lawyers are,
You're never going to see them again, Okay. This is
a person that, particularly if you have kids, you're gonna
know for the rest of your life. And as angry
as you might be at them at the moment, things
that you say will have an impact and they won't
let you forget them if they're ugly, and they may
be used in court too, if it's something like I'm
going to kill you all of a sudden, You've got
(27:18):
a domestic violence restraining order against you because you made
a threat. So I really like way to be Try
not to say things. Remember that this person a at one
point you loved them, You had sex with them, you like,
held their hand and slept with them in bed. See
if you can get back to that, and if that
really is just too painful, really do think about the fact, partrickularly,
if you've got kids, that this is someone they're not
(27:39):
going away going to It's not It's like no other
kind of lawsuit, a fender bender, a landlord tenant, a
slip and fall. You're never gonna see those people again.
This person is going to be in your life. Keep
that in mind. Not keeping that in mind, I would say,
is the biggest mistake.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Everything canon will be used against you in the court.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Along.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
We all put a lot in writing very quickly and
easily these days. And on that note, Laura, earlier you'd
mentioned no fault states, So correct me on how I
might be interpreting that. Do you think no fault divorce
is a good thing? Yes, okay, just makes it easier,
takes all the drama out of it, takes.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
All the drama.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I mean remember back in like whatever it was, the
forties or fifties, people were like slamming into hotel rooms
with the flash photography and people were holding like think
how with photoshop these days you could just create evidence
this something happening. I also, and I didn't realize this
until recently when I started seeing stuff coming up about
how states were going to try to.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Reverse no fault divorce.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I guess it's very very bad for women because if
women are trying to extricate themselves from a relationship, and
they have to prove some kind of fault. It's more
difficult for them to get out other than just saying
irreconcilable differences. Being a child of the seventies, eighties and
the lawyer of the nineties and two thousands, that didn't
occur to me. But apparently that's a very big ticket
(28:58):
item that we have to think of about as women
and as a society that may have you know, what's
happening right now with reproductive rights and all that no
fault divorce going away would not be a good thing
for women's rights at all.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Such a good point, and what you just mentioned, I
hadn't even considered that that as we move into the
age of AI, people could start fabricating things and then
you've got to analyze everything. Are you seeing that start
to happen already?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
No, I'm not saying that we will be one of
the last ones to switch over.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
California's not go anywhere.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
But again, like New York was one of the last
states to switch to fault divorce. So even when I
was practicing, I would still see like if I had
you know, colleagues. In New York, you would still see
declarations written by clients just like the list of horribles
that their spouse did to them. Our judges would always
be like, Okay, I get it, he's a bad guy.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I don't need to hear mar getting divorced for a reason.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah. Yeah, the judge is exhausted listening to all the
things that we think are so important. No, no, no,
But on page seventy two, look at what he said
to me sixty years ago. Do you what trends have
you seen over the years? I mean, you grew up
with your dad as a divorce attorney, and then now
you've been doing it, as you said, for decades, and
we've seen social media come up in the last fifteen years.
(30:13):
What kind of big trends have you seen, good or bad?
Especially with the rise of technology and how rapidly it's
moved over the past fifteen years.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
We're I mean, I think the biggest trend and the
best trend is just the use of resolution oriented tools,
whether it's mediation. There's something called collaborative divorce. We have
a lot of retired judicial officers who are now working
as mediators, and I think people really do, even if
they're not doing it by themselves online, they really do
(30:44):
want to have some kind of presence in the resolution
process rather than just leaving it all to two lawyers
who are going to work it out, and even worse,
leaving it to a judge who doesn't know you, doesn't
know your kids. It's going to make decisions that made
not necessarily be.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Cool with you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
So if you guys can do it even better, and
now we see that you can do it remotely, we
do zoom mediations. I think that's been one of the
biggest and again California is at the forefront of that,
but most states are really leaning towards that because everybody
realizes that that's a.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Better way to go.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Just a few more questions for you, Laurel. Though I
could talk to you forever again, I feel so indebted
to you having helped me handle my divorce.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I know I feel this like kinship between.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
But you know, as I mentioned, so, your father was
a divorce attorney, You then become a divorce attorney. And
now you said, I think you were married briefly at
one point. How has all of this work in divorce
since your childhood affected your own perspective on relationships and marriage.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
I mean, it certainly hasn't made me.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
People are like, oh, you'd never get married, and I
wouldn't get married, but for very different reasons. I don't
frown on marriage. I love a good wedding. I actually
am able to you know, I officiate. I'm officiating a
wedding in October. Like I love it. I love love.
I think it's great. I just would love people to
be a little bit more cognizant of the contract nature
(32:19):
of what they're doing when they're getting married. And as
for relationships, like I said, I don't I'm not jaded
by what I do. People say, well, you're divorce lawyer.
I'm not any more jaded than anybody else that lives
in this society and sees what goes down. I mean
I have to watch TV for twenty hours and be like,
oh my god, possibly do is in fact, because I
actually see the good in people and why things happen,
(32:42):
it may make me even less jaded. I just think
it's fascinating to watch people and how and they give
and take in relationships. Every relationship is a contract, and
every relationship has certain terms and things that are non negotiable,
and I think if you're able to be really clear
about that, then your relationship.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Will likely last longer and be more fruitful for each
of you.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
And I don't mean, I don't just mean in terms
of romantic relationships.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I think friendships.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I think business partnerships, and I think that's really important
to really be able to see the other person's perspective
and then communicate about it and say, well, is that
what you meant? So, I mean it's affected me as
a parent and.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
How I raise my kids.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
It's affected me as a partner with the others in
my law firm, as my father's daughter, all of those things,
and I think it's actually been helpful. I mean, you know,
it helps me kind of sort things through and process
them as I'm doing, as I'm going about my daily business.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, you just said something we always say, which is
we love love. And I absolutely love the idea of
you officiating a wedding, Like who gets to say that?
Now my divorce attorney to officiate.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
This is the if you go to divorce dot com,
that is the platinum level. She will do the wedding,
but they also be there for you throughout theatry.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So your new wedding. She will officiate, Yes, that was
the diamond package.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
She's also just taking down evidence as she's going yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And she'll record the wedding in case this one goes poorly.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Actually, there's been a few people that I've set up
clients that have gotten divorced, and then the two people
that were my clients, I haven't done it, but they've
both called and said, do you know this person who
heard you represented that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I'm like yeah. They're like, I want to go out
with them? What do you think? I'm like, yeah, I
think that'd be good.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
And now America, wellzing matchmaker, it's literally a lifelong love afterdivorce.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Dot com is the new website.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well but you know, but I'm sure you've seen the
super toxic cases as well. When you're in those really
tough situations. Is there are there any things that you
say to pull people out of like, you know, say
they just won't even speak to each other. What do
you do in those moments? And are things ever so
toxic that you drop a client?
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Yes, things can be so that when clients have lost
the ability to be reasonable and I can't pull them
out of it, That's what I might say, I think
we're going to part way. If somebody says, well, I'm
the mom and I should have the kids one hundred
percent of the time and you can see them on weekends,
I'm like, that's really not how it works. So if
that's the kind of mindset, we will part ways. There
will be somebody else that will probably do their bidding.
(35:09):
I don't think they'll be successful, but they'll tell them
what they want to hear. And remember, in the entertainment industry,
there's plenty of people that just want to be told.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
They're used to being told what they want to hear.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Sometimes those people will come back and be like, I
wish I would have listened to you, because you were
giving it to me straight and I didn't want to
hear that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
At that point, you have represented countless a list celebrities,
and I'm not going to ask you anything specific about
them because I know you won't say anything anyway.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Attorney claimp Yes.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But my question is, what would because there's this insatiable appetite,
especially when there's the divorce, the celebrity divorce, what is
the thing that would surprise us about in talking in
general broadstrokes here about the celebrity as they go through
their divorce. Is it just the they are just like us,
they are lonely, they're scared. What is it that would surprise.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I don't know if it would surprise you guys, but
it surprises a lot of people when I say exactly
that they're just like us, they're scared. They it may
be the difference between like, Oh, who's going to go
to the firm holiday party with me? And who's going
to walk the red carpet with me at the Oscars?
What will they say? People talk about me? What is
my How does my pr person get involved in this
and spin it so that I don't look like an apple?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But really it is the same.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
They are, they are scared, they're it's sad, it's a
sad time. They want to they don't know what is
on the other side. And then add into it this
whole element of public perception and shodden for it.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
A lot of people want.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
To see famous people fail because it makes them feel
better about themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Nothing better than helping people rise up and then watching
them fall and crushing.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Them exactly, I think, But I really, and for the
most part, I really do think that you know, It's
just it may be a different number of zeros on
that income and expense declaration, but it is the same
where am I still going to be able to fly
private versus am I scared take the bus to work?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
It's just yeah, but there is that added layer. And
I know people are like, oh, they asked for it,
but I remember, even on a much smaller scale, when
I went through it, you know, having it splashed on
the late night shows and on the tabloids, and you're
dealing with something that's horrible anyway, and you're just trying
to protect your kids and your family and do what's right,
and then you're also dealing with the larger picture. And
(37:23):
so there is that added layer, whether you like.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It or not.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
And what I think I've seen in the entertainment industry
is with that added layer, it does it has begun
to promote better behavior because people don't want to be splashed,
So they will keep it quieter, they will keep it
more amicable.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
They will do it.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
By virtue of mediator so that it is more private,
so that it doesn't you know, show up in a
court pleating he did this, he did this, And they
will whether it's real or not, they will fake it
till they make it in terms of joint vacations and
joint birthday parties and whatever else. And what I have
found is a lot of those people go, yeah, I
was kind of just going to the pumpkin patch for
(37:59):
the photo ops so I look like a good guy.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
But it was.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Actually, we had a nice tame. We decided we're going
to do that for Thanksgiving. So again, fake it. And
then what happens is people who read the magazine that
see that divorced couple at the pumpkin patch with their
kid for the photo op, go oh, we can do that,
And again an evolution of divorced couples making it work
for their kids, for them, for the betterment of humanity.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Will Brad Pitt and Angelina Julie ever actually get divorced?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Oh my gosh, Well do you represent either of them?
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Laura, Oh, no comment.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
No comment that that's I just it's I think they're
now getting divorced longer than they were married. That's got
to be one of the longer celebrity devorce.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I do always forget that they're still in the throes
of it when you hear it.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Well, Laura you may have just hit on it, but yeah,
one thing I wanted to ask you because I think
maybe everybody at home who's not famous but could use
the advice. Because look, when anybody gets divorced in their community,
it's a scandal, right, It's a topic, it's a talk
of the town, a gossipable moment. How do you advise
celebrity clients from the get go on how to handle
(39:04):
what is coming their way with the media firestorm, with
the headlines that are going to be splashed about their divorce.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Less is more, it's a news cycle. Let it cycle through.
The bigger you are, the longer it'll last. But if
you contribute to it, it will go longer, and it
will necessitate a response from the other side, and then
the other way and the other way. And I deal
with pr people all the time, and they know they
they'll say, I know what you're gonna say, but and
(39:32):
I say, don't respond, Just don't respond.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And it's easier said than done. I've given that advice
as well on other topics from like the hardest thing
in the world is to just keep your mouth shut,
not defend yourself. You want to scream from the rooftops,
you're not a bad guy or girl or whatever. But yeah,
the best thing you can do is just not add
fuel to the fire.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, because what's hard is it becomes he said she said,
or he said he said, or whatever that you just
end up defending yourself being like no, no, no, they
were wrong, and then you look crazy. Yeah, Laura, I
tell us if you can. I'm just curious because Chris
and I we've talked a lot about how, you know,
we people who have We know people who have gotten
(40:11):
way too caught up in all that he said, she said,
and then they end up spending a lot of money
on their divorce. What do you think is the most
amount of money a person's ever spent on a divorce
that you know of?
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Oh my god, you mean just on the fees, not
their assets.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
We just finished a case.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
I gave the closing in on July fifteenth, and it
had been going on.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
The trial itself had.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Been going on since January, on and off, you know,
a couple of days a month. The case started, I
think four and a half years ago, and I believe
that our client, and I'm pretty sure his wife paid more.
But our client's already en curd fees over five million dollars.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Can you imagine, let's just round it up to say
twelve million total in that family that went to Boom Gone.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
So, and just what that money could have been spent
on for, you know, research or whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
It really is.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
It's terrible. It shouldn't go that way. Nothing should ever
take that long. I assure you we tried as hard
as we could on many occasions to get it resolved.
My hope is that when the judge gives her decision,
there will be somewhat of a lawback from the other
party as to why it costs that much. But yeah,
I mean I don't and I'm sure that wasn't the
most expensive one. These were not the wealthiest people we've represented.
(41:29):
This was not the longest litigation we ever did. That's
just an example of how crazy it can get.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Well, Laura, I want to end on because I love you.
Know you're so refreshing in your approach to everything. But
you do have this reputation of being like the go
to person in Hollywood. I mean, I look for entertainment. Tonight,
I went to the La County Courthouse and covered various cases,
and your name always comes up as one of the
most incredible divorce attorneys in existence. So what do you
(41:58):
think that is about you? Like, what makes you the
go to person for people? What do you bring to
the table, Because maybe your answer could help people at
home know what to look for as they're finding a
divorce attorney.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
I think part of it has to do and this
won't help anybody at home. I think part of that
whole thing has to do with the fact that I'm
generally been pretty tight lipped about cases, and of course
that just makes people want more. I'm never somebody that's
going to stand in front of the courthouse and have
a press conference even if our client asks us to.
Our firm policy is we do not discuss any of
our cases.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You have other people that can do that.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
But I also think, I mean, I would like to
think that the reason that I'm the go to, especially
for a lot of their high net worth or celebrity people,
is because either they or their professionals, their reps, their agents,
their business managers, their entertainment attorneys know that I kind
of come from a place of problem solving and reason
and it's never my desire to kind of churn a
(42:53):
case or make it go on for a long time
because I have terrible add I just want to get
onto the next Let's get it ris. That's what I
always tell our younger attorneys. We have to move through this,
be reasonable. And so I think I am a voice
of reason, and I think if you are at home
and you're thinking about it, you really have to approach
your divorce as two parts, like really bifurcated. There is
(43:13):
a business decision that needs to be made about how
to handle your assets and your finances, and then there
is clearly an emotional part of it. And you should
be able to deal with the emotional part with therapy
and counseling and support, and you'll go through all the
grieving of the relationship and all that. But if you
can not have those things commingled, you will come out better.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'll answer that question now. Just in the forty minutes
we've been talking your humanity, your kind, you're thoughtful. It's
I think when people go into this, and again we've
talked a lot about this, and this is my takeaway
after this conversation. People want, you said community a lot.
People just don't want to feel alone. And when you're
going through something so scary like this, having your website,
(43:59):
having an attorney like yourself, Laura Wasser, or somebody who
you can find that has a little humanity that reaches
out to you and you know that they're kind. That helps.
That makes a huge difference. And so like, you know,
I would never describe you, and I'm sure you can
be don't get and I don't want to get on
the wrong side of you, but you know, I would
never describe you. This woman's a pit bull. You know,
(44:20):
she's like she's going to kill or be killed, and
she's going in guns blazing. I find that you have
this empathy about the divorce and about the whole process
that really lends itself to your humanity, and so I
appreciate that it really came out in your conversation today.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
She's incredibly stylish, stunning, stunning, very well dressed, gorgeous hair,
great smile.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I didn't want to say anything in front of my wife,
but I was thinking that the entire time.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Listen, if you're going to be talking to someone for hours,
it's wonderful to speak to someone who's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
And by the way, talking to an talking to a
divorce attorney in the entire time. There's a piece of art,
and I know we're on a podcast. There's a piece
of art over Laura's head that says the end.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Laura, what is that?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
That is such a great piece of art to have
in your office?
Speaker 4 (45:08):
I thought it was really ironic and I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
It is incredibly ironic. Or maybe just say I.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
Love his stuff and he has a lot of like
great freezing on things.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
But I really thought that was the most appropriate for mine.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I don't know if it's ironic or just poignant.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Do we need to add one that says the beginning?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yes, exactly, a smaller one. Laura, thank you so much
for your time, your knowledge, your expertise, and your humanity.
Truly appreciate it. You take care.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
Thanks for having me. Bye bye, Laura.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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