April 7, 2025 • 42 mins
If you are thinking about getting MARRIED or DIVORCED, this episode is for you!
Michelle is joined by Lawyer and Divorce expert Dennis Vetrano for the most eye-opening conversation about separation.
‘The person you marry, isn’t the same person you divorce’ is just one of the scary relationship realities discussed. Plus, how to tell if your partner is going to be difficult during a divorce, and what is the main factor that forces someone to say enough is enough? (Hint: it’s not money or cheating.)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, everyone, thanks for coming back and coming along this
journey with me. Like I mentioned in the previous episodes,
I'm in the middle of a divorce. The end of
my marriage played out on reality TV, which really did
add an extra layer that's already difficult and a painful process.
As I found myself deciding to end my marriage, I
(00:25):
realized that I really didn't have a clue about the
divorce process. So I'm super excited for our guest today
because I have so many questions and I'm sure this
conversation will resonate with many of you. Welcome family law
attorney Dennis Bentrano, who also hosts his own podcast called
(00:45):
The DRV Law Show Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi Dennis, Hey Michelle, how are you good to meet you?
Good to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm so excited and I've been watching you for years.
I love I think you're so insightful and everything I've
seen on social media is incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You're very knowledgeable in what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be on the show.
It'll be a good opportunity for us to chat about
the process.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely, so I kind of want to start from the
very beginning. You know, most people when they get married,
they don't plan on getting divorced. So what is that
first thing someone should do when they start contemplating leaving
their spouse.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I always tell people when you utter those words for
the first time, I want a divorce, or threaten the divorce,
or you're having an argument back and forth and that
thought even crosses your mind, that's the point at which
you really need to, you know, step back and I
think be really thoughtful about the decision, because clearly it's
(01:45):
something you're contemplating and it's a huge decision to make.
Not that I'm discouraging people from doing it, but really
be thoughtful about, like making that ultimate decision. And once
you know that that's a direction you need to go
in in your life to reach that next phase of
your life or to turn that proverbial page, then it's
(02:06):
time to start surrounding yourself with a group of people
who are really just going to be your support team.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Absolutely, And for myself, you know, I did have friends
that were in the divorce process, so it was helpful
for me. They recommended attorneys, But I feel like if
you don't have friends who are in the same boat
as you, there's just so much there's just so much
information out there, Like what do you look for when
you're trying to find the right divorce attorney.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
That's a hard one. I think choosing the right lawyer
can be one of the most difficult decisions you'll make,
especially right out of the gate. But I think, look,
there's a couple of tips that I would have in
that regard. I think, certainly read reviews, Certainly consume as
much information as you can that's out there, because right
(02:56):
now we're at a very unique point in time in
that there's so much free information out there about navigating
the process. So start consuming that free information that's out there.
Read some reviews, take a look at some websites, and
then just go in and meet with people. I will
tell you the best divorce lawyers are also really good people,
(03:20):
and they tend to exude a level of confidence about
their craft. And you would be surprised how insightful a layperson,
somebody goes no legal training at all, can be about
choosing the right lawyer if they take their time and
they're thoughtful about it. When you go into a lawyer's office,
you know, nine times out of ten you're gonna know
you're gonna walk in the office. It's gonna look organized,
(03:41):
it's gonna look like a well put together operation. And
then when you meet with that lawyer, you know they're
gonna sit down and they're gonna talk to you.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
The good lawyers.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Are gonna make you feel like you're in the right place,
and you'd be surprised. Trust your gut, you'll know.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I feel the same way.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I interviewed a couple lawyers and I just, you know,
somebody who understood me, and I connected with them, and
I just felt like they would really push for me.
That's who I ended up going with.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Here's an important piece about that, Michelle.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Think about this.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You interviewed a few lawyers. That's a really important tip
right there. Make sure you don't go into a lawyer's
office like, oh, I'm gonna find this lawyer, this one
looks good, I'm gonna choose this one today. Don't go
into it in that way. Interview a few lawyers and
see where you feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, And I think I actually learned the wrong the
hard way. I learned the hard way because initially we
tried working with a mediator and we didn't ask any
questions and we just kind of found one and hired her,
and it just was not a good person for us
to work with.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I tell people when I do consultations, I say, after
I do a consultation with a client, I'll say, I
want you to go home and think about this, and
I want you to call us back if you feel
like we're a good fit for you. And that speaks
volumes anybody that's trying to like, Oh, don't worry about it,
I'll take care of it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I've got it all settled for you. I've got y'all
to get y'all taken care of.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Be cautious about those sort of approaches and those types
of personalities in either divorce mediation or in divorce law.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And so I didn't know anything about a mediator, And
so what do you know, if somebody can't afford an attorney,
what do you recommend.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I wholeheartedly believe in the divorce mediation process.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I really do.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think it's something that should work for most couples,
not all most, And I'll put a little asterisk next
to that, it's not you know, mediation can take on
multiple different forms, right. It can be two parties working
with a mediator, It can be two parties with their
(05:57):
own lawyers working with a mediator, or it can also
be the lawyers taking a large role and really being
involved in representing their clients in the context of the
mediation process. I mean, look, it's going to vary from
state to state and from you know, county to county
what the rules are. But I will say, generally speaking,
going into the divorce process, like I need to find
(06:21):
something that's fair in the form of an amicable resolution
that will get me to the other side. If that's
the mentality of both parties, mediation can work.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And then you just need to figure out which which
you know, system, which which type of mediation works best
for you. I always suggest, like, look, especially if it's
kids and there's a lot of complexities, and it's a
long term marriage and there's high assets, you know, you
probably best off each having your own lawyer and then
trying to work with a mediator on the things that
(06:55):
would be too costly or wasteful in terms of legal
fees having the lawyers go back and forth and back
and forth and back and forth.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I didn't know that. So you could have both an
attorney and a mediator.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
You can and the situations that we typically do. So
we have two certified divorce mediators here, I'm one of them.
We have multiple divorce attorneys, so we deal with every
type of scenario in terms of in the context of mediation.
We have situations where we're just the lawyers just sitting
on the sidelines, advising along the way, giving legal advice,
(07:29):
making sure that the agreement that you ultimately reached in
your case is fair to you, and making sure whichever
whatever written agreement you ultimately arrive at is correctly properly
drafted to ensure that it protects your interests.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
We do that.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
We've also been the mediator where there's lawyers. Each party
has their own lawyer and we're the mediator in the middle.
So I do think that tends to be the more
thorough approach. It is a little bit more costly, but
I do think it's worth it. It's, like I said,
complexities in your case where you feel like it's very
(08:03):
important to have a lawyer representing your interests, and yet
you really want to try to, you know, just get
a fair resolution and reach an agreement together.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I know it's a really broad question, but like I
had no idea going into a divorce, like, what can
the timeline be like realistically?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I mean, you know, it's funny I get this question
all the time and I usually tell people my fastest,
my quickest divorce that we've ever completed here was sixty
days start to finish. So that's from the date they
came into the office and sign a retainer agreement until
the date we had a judgment of divorce in hand.
So but that's like hyper speed. And that was a
(08:41):
situation where it's straightforward, limited assets, not a lot of
complexities with kids, and the parties came in and they said, hey,
you know, we've reached an agreement. We really just want
you guys to draft it up for us. And we
did that and we got it done pretty quickly. But
I have also seen those cases where and again these
are rare.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
But you do have them.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
A judge, you know, you change judges in your case
because the end of their term comes up, lawyer dies
or they change lawyers. And those cases are cases that
have pended for years, you know. In addition to obviously
there's motions back and forth and people are arguing about
the you know, the silliest things. So I think with divorces.
It's one of those things where it can be as
(09:20):
short as as possible, say sixty days, it can also
be years. And that's why, like I said, I think
it's very important when you go into the process that
you understand it is a humongous life change for both parties.
It can be such a complex not just from a
(09:41):
legal standpoint, but also from a mental and emotional standpoint.
Process to go through that you really need to you know,
get organized, understand the you know, and approach it in
stepwise fashion. Like, Hey, for the mental and emotional I
need to get a support team with me. I need
to have friends. I need to have a good lawyer.
I need to have maybe a counselor with me. Maybe
I need a divorce coach. You know, get prepared, get
(10:04):
a list of the things you need to do to start,
you know, a to do list, and then you know,
go down through the process.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, because I can say, even for my mental health,
like it's very taxing to constantly get emails and try
to find information and don't like I can't even imagine
not having a lawyer or some guidance.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
It's a tough process.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
And again I think for us as the lawyers. I
want to be your legal expert. Obviously, I'm so familiar
with every facet of the divorce process in that I've
done it for twenty five years, from everything for the
most simple divorce to the most complex, you know, acrimonious,
multimillion dollar construction company divorce. But I want to be
your lawyer. I don't want to be your counselor, and
(10:45):
I can't be your friend. But I want to tell you, hey,
you know, get get your support team together, do the
things you need to do to get your emotions under control,
and make sure you're okay mentally right, to really be
patient to get the right result throughout your case. And
then I'm going to help you get the fair result.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
And something I didn't know, Like I've always heard the
term before, but it's never really discussed, you know, prenups.
And recently I even learned about post once you're married.
Once you're married, that can be very helpful. I wish
I had more information about that. And it's like you
kind of get scared, like you're getting married to somebody.
(11:23):
The last thing you're thinking about is like, hey, let's
do a prenup, right, But what do you think about prenups.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And listen, I think prenups in a lot of ways
get a bad rap. I mean, if you watch the
content that I put out there, I've spent twenty five
years handling divorce cases. The best way for me to
help people is take that twenty five years of experience
for people and work backwards.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Okay, what could we have.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Done to help us either through the process or to
help us land in a better relationship or even keep
that relationship intact? And I think, I think you know
prenups is one of the things, and it's not for
the reasons that you know. The reason why I'm pro
pren up is not for the reasons people think I'm
(12:07):
pro prene up as much for the fact that it's
transparency at the outset as anything else. So think of
it like this, Before you get married, don't you want
to know what each of your finances is like? Don't
you don't you want to know what each of you
expects from the other should the worst happen? Because that
speaks volumes about people's personality and the person that you're
(12:30):
ultimately going to dedicate your life to. And I think
you know I'm finding that young professionals in today's day
and age are doing them more and more frequently. So yeah,
I'm a big proponent of prenups, and just as much
because it gives you transparency before you commit your life
(12:52):
to someone as any other reason.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Absolutely, and talk to me about how people change during
divorce and can even be unrecognizable.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Right, Yeah, it's funny because.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You got people at their worst.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
One hundred percent out there worth. So a couple of
a couple of things I'll share with you on that point.
I think you know, I heard this saying the other day,
and I think it's one hundred percent true. The person
you divorce is not the person you married.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
They're a different person.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And I think that's true not only because people you've
all when they change over time, and they also can
get nasty when the divorce process you know, comes on,
But I think you know also because in those sorts
of circumstances, you know, they they just change over time.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
So I think.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's just important when you're choosing someone to dedicate your
life to. When we keep get going back to you know,
like rewind, like, how do we start from a good
point in these circumstances?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And I always tell people like, if you're dating somebody,
take a look at how they treat their worst enemy.
Take a look at how they treat someone who makes
them mad.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
How do they react.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Are they the type of person that's going to chase
down somebody in a road race situation and go to
kick their windshield in? I mean, is this the sort
of person because you want to prepare for what is
this person going to be like in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
That is such great advice.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
That is amazing because I remember even with my ex,
like I loved him so much, and I saw how
he treated people when they did him wrong or he
was unhappy and it wasn't good. You know, his first
thought was like I want to sue you. I want
to get revenge. And I never thought of it like
I could one day be that person.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You could one day be on the other end of it.
So I'll give you a perfect, perfect example in my life.
They're a handful of people's people in a circumstance that
I dealt with recently who went far out of their
way to do wrong to me and wrong to my kid. Right,
But now I see them on a regular basis, and
I say Am I gonna harbor animosity towards this person.
(15:09):
Am I gonna dedicate energy to go after this person?
Or am I gonna say, you know what, what's in
the past is in the past. It's over and done with.
If they're nice to me, I'm gonna be nice to them,
you know. And that's why, like I always say, like,
if there were ever a circumstance where I were to
split from my wife and we've been happily married for years,
I would never go out of my way to try
(15:31):
to take something from her that was hers, or try
to or try to just get back at her just
for petty, you know, anger sort of things. And I
think that speaks to people's character. It really does. So
while you know, yes, it's true that people change over time,
and yes, the divorce process does get people to an
ugly place. And yes, you know, in the divorce process
(15:54):
most people are what they've always say is like two
or three degrees away from their normal base line personality
because such a stressful event. Yes, all those things are true,
but you know, good people are gonna be good people
at their core.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Absolutely, and that is I think one of the best
advices I've ever heard because it happened to me, and
you know in the beginning, you just don't think like that.
And I feel like looking at it first, like worse
comes to worse, what's going to happen?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think that's actually the best approach.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
How do you feel about people staying in marriages when
they are unhappy and they have children?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, I love that. Feel like you're modeling it. And
I'll give you an example. Or watch the video on
TikTok the other day, right, and they were talking about
father's raising daughters, and they said, one of the best
things you can do if you're a father raising a
daughter is to treat her mother well because you are
teaching her how she can expect to be treated by
(17:01):
a partner when she gets older. What can she expect
from her partner? Can she expect to be ridiculed? Can
she expect to be you know, built up? Can you
Can she expect somebody who's going to encourage her and
motivate her and inspire her or can she expect that
it's going to be the other direction? So I think
(17:22):
if you're in a relationship where your partner and I
think this especially goes for women and fathers and daughters,
because particularly it's something close to my heart because I
have a daughter right and I always am mindful of
trying to treat her mother well. Just keep in mind,
if you're in a relationship where your husband is treating
(17:42):
you poorly and your daughter is watching that happen over
and over again, you are modeling what she can believe
she can expect from another from her partner as she
gets older.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So yes, I.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Believe if you're in a situation where you know it's
toxic or worse she had its abuse, or it's a
situation where you're just gonna never get to the next step,
the next page in your life leading to happiness in
your life, you need to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I'm very happy you said that because my life coach
actually told me that, and that's how I opened up
my eyes because I never saw it that way. I
didn't realize, like, my daughter is going to watch how
a man treats me. And he had asked me like,
would you want a man to treat your daughter that way?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And listen, just let that statement lie for a little
for a few minutes. I mean, listeners need to really
take that to heart. Would you want a man to
treat your daughter that way.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, And I think I've gotten a lot of criticism that,
you know, thinking the old school way, like no matter what,
even if you're unhappy, you stay in the marriage. And
I think it's the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
It is it is, And I think the toxicity for
kids they soak up.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Give another piece of information.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
A lot of the divorces that I get where women
come forward and they say, hey, it's it's time for
me to pull the trigger and say and you know
what they say was the was the proverbial last straw.
Their kid said something to them. Their kid said, Mom,
it's it's time. Mom, it's you can't keep putting up
(19:22):
with this. Kids know when they're and they're soaking it
up like sponges. We think that, you know, oh they're
they're in their bedroom and they're sleeping, or they're hiding
around the court.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Listen, my daughter will.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
They're always listening. That is something I learned. Even with
my four year old daughter. It's like, oh, yeah, they
have double ears.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
The ears, the walls have ears, for sure. Oh yeah,
we've all had those. Middle of the night. My daughter
will and she's like listen, she's like a cat.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Burglar in the middle of the night, I'll she'll just
her head will pop out from behind the date bed
in our bedroom and there she is.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I didn't even hear it come in.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
These kids are smart nowadays.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
They are.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So as an expert in your field, can you spot
a couple who's doomed before they even know it?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Ooh yeah, yeah, I can spot the signs. I mean again,
and I think, you know, I hate to keep coming
back to this, but I think, especially for women, you know,
one of the good one indicator for me is like,
and I was thinking this as we were talking earlier, like,
are you with a partner who would be comfortable when
(20:27):
you're in the spotlight and there in the shadows?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
M good way?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
They always need to be like, well, I'm in the
spotlight and you're back here?
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Is that the dynamic there?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And there are times where and that was one of
the other pieces from that video that I watched, like,
you know, there are times where you know you need
to be in the lead. They need to be building
you up, they need to be supporting you, they need
to be behind you, and then you do the same
for them. But it can never be a circumstance where
they're trying to take away from you. You know, I've
seen those relationships like you're out of you know, cocktail
(21:00):
or whatever, you know, you know, like Harry and Harry
and Sally go to the party and like, you know, yeah,
oh you know Sally never you know, she's she's not
very smart, she doesn't know yo.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
She'd never lit, are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You hear stuff like that, Like if you talk to me,
either in my wife's presence or outside of her presence,
you will hear me talk about her like she's a
fucking rock star. Excuse my friends, because she is. That's
but right, I'm inspired by her, I'm motivated by her,
and sometimes I look at her, I'm like, shit, I
(21:33):
gotta I really got to pick up my game, man,
this lady's killing it.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
And and you know, but that's what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So when you see a dynamic where that's not present,
or it's like, you know, I'm picking up this for
him or I'm doing that for him, and like, yes,
you're going to do it for each other. But if
it's not a give and take, if it's not a
two way street, then you got to question what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, and that will always change throughout life. There's always
going to be one person.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That achieves more, does more, and it's the cycle of life.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's and so being there for one another, having that
partnership is so important. And you know marriage is supposed
to be many many years, so it's like there'll be
ups and downs, but supporting on one another is crucial.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
It's one hundred percent. And it's funny.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I was watching a video that I consume a lot
of social media content, not just to get ideas for
my own stuff, but but just because I love the area.
But they said there's three things your spouse should be doing.
They should either be motivating you and inspiring you to
be the best you you can be and be like
your cheerleader. Or they should be helping support you. Or
(22:42):
they should be getting the hell out of your way.
And I somewhat disagree with the last one. But they
can't be bringing you down, they can't be holding you back. Now,
I think it's it's cheerleader or motivating and supporting you.
I don't even think it should be a neutral. I
don't even think they should be sitting in a situation
where they're just staying out of your way. I think
they should be behind you the whole way, all of it,
(23:05):
and it definitely should never be where they're holding you
back or discouraging you.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, the end of my first season, I remember not
to go too much into detail, but I was having
brunch with my ex and my daughter and we had
just finished a whole season, and out of nowhere, he
just kind of kept saying, like, you should thank me
that I put you on TV, and kind of bringing
me down. And that was another moment that I opened
(23:32):
up my eyes. I'm like, you're supposed to be my husband,
my partner, thank you, Like this is something we did together,
Like we should be celebrating together. You shouldn't try to
pull me down. And I felt like that's what kept
happening to me.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It was always about him and never about.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Me and diminishing me, and that is what broke me
down at the very end, and I was like, what
am I doing?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
My worth is like I don't deserve this.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I don't deserve to have somebody treat and talk to
me like that.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I mean they have to be a situation where they're
giving you the credit that you deserve. And again we
come back to the situation I was talking about earlier.
You have to be in situations where they are comfortable
giving you there and a lot of it, I think
is ego.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
It's like, oh, it's got to be me. It's got
to be me.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
It's always got it's always got to be all about me.
That's fine. I love ego to the extent that it
means that you're confident and that you're you're driven to
get ahead. But you got to check that damn ego
and support your partner, you know, and you got to
let them know how much you appreciate them.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's funny.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I was watching an interview the other day about from
u Selena Gomez and Bennie Blanco and they were talking
about their relations.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I've seen that so many times.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Oh my god, I love it so much. He supports
her so much. I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And I think that's why people love it, because men
don't support women as much as they should.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, yeah, and that and let me tell you so
here's so here's what's so funny about that. You know,
you'll you'll hear from like the guys on my social media's.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Oh that's a SIMP. That is a BS.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
That is the most confident man, the man who does
not feel challenged by the fact that his woman is
his wife.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
His partner is just amazing.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
As a matter of fact, they should feel complimented by
it and support them in every way they can.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
That's why I love those videos, those clips of that.
I love it so much.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Me too, And you can see that she appreciates that
and she loves him that much more because she has
such a supportive partner.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
And he is not challenged one iota buy it, and
neither is she. And that's what makes for the great partnership.
And great partnerships are what they're really at its core,
what great marriages are about.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, I'm curious for myself, Like, do you see now
more women asking for the divorce and filing first?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, the percentages have always been higher for women. It's
roughly about sixty five or so percent filed by women.
But I think, you know, there's good reason for that.
But I think the funny part about it is people think,
because of those statistics, and I think mainly men think
because of those statistics that women are just like, oh uh,
(26:22):
this guy doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
I want a divorce.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
That is not the way it works.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
On average.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Women spend years painstakingly, you know, trying to restore the
merits or relationship and send signals and communicate and like
and end up in a situation. And that's why when
you get to the divorce process, many women have been like,
you know, like like the situation we were talking about earlier,
(26:50):
just like feeling like, you know, they did all these
things and they get no credit and there's no support,
and they're like mentally and emotionally, it's about getting past that,
getting to that next level. That's why the mental and
emotional peace is so important at the outset of the
divorce situation, because you know, the ladies have really spent
a long time pining over this decision, and it's one
(27:12):
of the toughest decisions they have to make.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, I can't imagine a woman just wakes up one
day it's like, Okay, I want to file for divorce.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
No, of course not. It takes so long.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
It does, And I think women really internalize it in
my experience that they feel a sense of shame, they
feel a sense of failure, they feel a sense of
like like it's like it's their fault in a way,
and in as part of the process, you know, one
(27:44):
of the most important things you could do is like
unpack all of that. You don't get through all of
that because clearly it's not your fault and manute and
in many cases it's very small percentage your fault, if
at all.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So I did think it was my fault because I
was the person who made the final decision. But now
with therapy, I've learned that no, it's I just did
the right thing, and I did the right thing for
myself and for my daughter.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, And I think the funny part about it is
that usually the people on the other side of those
circumstances will use every clever trick that they can to
keep your self esteem, you know, and keep your motivation
to get to the next level down right. They'll say, like,
you know, perfect sample, which is like until what you
were talking about earlier. They'll say like, well, you'll never
find anybody who will love you as much as I do. Well,
(28:34):
how does that devalue that person?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Well, they're only you know, how could they possibly find
somebody as great as this other person to love.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Them like they love them?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Well, no, they're worth that and so much more. And
that's why again, like that Benny Blanco thing, like I
tell her I love her every day and she gets
tired of it, and I you know, explained to you know,
talk to her about how great she is and where
you know, as guys, we're not great at that.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I think it takes effort, It takes work. But you know,
for any guys that are listening, say, if you are
with a great lady, go home and tell her today
you're fucking awesome, man, Like I am so.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Lucky to be And how easy is that?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
How easy is it to give an affirmation, to give
a compliment, to just be like, hey, you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I think that's all women really want.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think just people in general
want to feel appreciated, and I think especially for women,
especially for the ones who are really killing it, who
are doing it all, which which comprises a large majority
of the women that we represent. They're doing everything, they're
with the kids, they're with businesses, they're making the money,
they're taking care of, doing all these things. And then like, well,
(29:43):
you didn't do this for me, or you didn't You'll
never find anybody else who are going to love you
like I do im.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I was like, whoa.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Wait a second, Well show.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
You right right.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
I mean, I'm looking in from the outside saying this,
This lady's way out of your class, dude.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
A couple more things I wanted to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So I was having a dinner with my girlfriend who's
also getting divorced, and so something she said to me
that I had never even thought of. She was like,
you know, when you're in the divorce and you're in
a room or in the house with the ex, you know,
an argument can get heated and you can start screaming.
And she actually knows a lot of people who call
(30:25):
nine one one or gets arrested, and it was kind
of a joke, but she was like, no, this is
actually very important because nobody talks. She's like, if I
would have known, I wouldn't have dialed nine one one.
But you're just in the heat of the moment, Like,
what what do you suggest when you are in a
room and you know you're just arguing and it just
(30:48):
gets heated.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I always try to counsel clients to keep things as
vanilla as is possible. I think it starts from a
situation where again the same. You have to remember that
the same dynamic throughout that developed throughout your marriage. The
other party, especially if it's a toxic relationship, is going
to think post divorce, business as usual. I'm gonna talk
(31:14):
to you the way I used to talk to you.
I'm gonna treat you the way I used to treat you,
and for many it's poorly And I think the shift
is to realize you don't need to tolerate that. You
don't need to listen to that. If they're gonna raise
their voice, or they're gonna curse, or they're gonna do
or they're gonna direct any communications towards you that have
(31:36):
no useful, reasonable purpose, like talking about what the pickup
and drop off is gonna be for the kids, or
talking about how you're gonna you know, how you're gonna
filew your taxes, walk out the door, goodbye. Absolutely, phone call,
phone call, click. I don't need to tolerate that anymore.
I'm not your whipping post. Okay, I'm not gonna be
(31:58):
bullied and I don't need to listen to this garbage.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Now.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Obviously you do that in consultation with your lawyer, because
sometimes you want to be strategic about that because a
lot of times they'll surreptitiously try to like draw you in. Well,
I'm going to try to push their buttons until they
get aggravated, and then I'm going to go to the
judge and say, well, they wouldn't talk to me about
the kids.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, because would that affect the custody agreement or does
that affect it?
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Can? It can?
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But I think it's it's important to draw that line.
It's important to know that that raising the voice foul
language any level of abuse. I mean certainly anything physical
should does not and should not be tolerated. And I think,
you know, I have to be cautious when we're in
(32:43):
this space because if you're in a situation where there's
been physical violence, or there's been any level of domestic
violence in the past, absolutely one call the police. Your
safety is the most important thing, and everything follows from that,
your physical and then mental and emotional safety, physical safety,
(33:07):
police right lawyer, prosecution, those sorts of things. You know,
the hotline you can always reach out to if you
need to find a way to get safely out of
a domestic violence relationship. You can just google hashtag the hotline.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
But other than.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Immediate safety safety plan police. If it's just verbal and
there's no domestic violence, you don't have to tolerate it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And as easy as that sounds, that is so hard
in the moment. It is you want to go that
back and forth and prove your point, and you.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Know do you do?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
But I think what is that doing to you? If
you do that, it's eating you up. And that's why
let's back up a little bit. I want you to
unpack all of the proverbial shit you dealt with in
that relationship throughout. Unpack that in a therapist's office and
deal with it. Okay, I know, you know, and I
(34:06):
think people don't appreciate how much there is to deal
with prior to the divorce process. Because once you get
your arms around that and work with your counselor your
therapists to develop mechanisms to deal with this person on
the other side of your situation, you will be in
a healthy space to say, I'm going to take this.
(34:26):
I don't need to prove any point to them, I
don't need to answer to them in any way. There's
no remnant of the broken relationship that I need to
air my grievances with them.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
I'm done with them.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
The best thing you can do for yourself and to
prove anything to them is to walk out the door.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
That's my philosophy now, and it took me some time
to learn. I was like, I don't need to deal
with this. I don't have to hear it.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I have a lawyer email done one hundred percent, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
And then I want to ask two questions that I
get asked often. I think I know the answers to this,
but a lot of women don't. You know a lot
of people have a lot of women have beautiful, big
engagement rings and they're like, what do I do? Do
I give it back to them? And I said that
it's a gift. That's what I was told. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It depends on your state. So let's put it this way.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
I'm a New York state divorce lawyer. So typically the
engagement ring is a gift and it's you know, and
it's dealt with in that way through the through the
divorce process. But I think I would be cautious about
it and talk with your lawyer about your state's laws,
because remember, divorce laws will vary from state to state.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Okay, and these are conversations you really need to have
before you get married, like how can you get married
to somebody spend the rest of your life with them,
but don't know their financial situation?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Let that lie for a little bit, because I'll tell
you that is a piece of very valuable sound advice.
And not just understand how important what you just said is.
It's not just about the divorce process, but it's just
as much about building a relationship that will last. It
starts with transparency. Know how that person's going to react
(36:09):
in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Know how they make their money.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Know what their debts are, Like, what are their assets
if we were divorce, what do you expect from me? Well,
I want you to be a stay at home mom,
but I don't want to give you any assets if
we divorce. We'll wait a second. If I'm helping you
build all this money and then you want to just
walk out the door that your so again, I think
(36:34):
the prenup is a way, like you said, to have
transparency from the outset.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Know all of these things.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, And what is it called the post Once you're
already married.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
There's a post nup. So in post nups, it's funny,
there's a there so. So in New York State, we
do divorce agreements, which is generally a written contract and
agreement that provides for every possible issue that would come
up in the context of your divorce case. You can
do it prior to the marriage it's called a prenup.
You can do it post the marriage, and during the marriage,
(37:08):
which is called a post up. And then if you're
doing it in anticipation of a divorce, it's typically called
a separation agreement. And then in the context of your
divorce case, the written contract that settles all the issues
if you reach an amicable agreement between the two parties,
is basically called a divorce settlement agreement. All four of
these agreements need to meet the same standards under the
(37:29):
New York State divorce law, very similar in sum and substance.
So pren up, yes, transparency, do it early. Post up
is a situation where if your marriage is on the
rocks but you're trying to work on it, and you say, hey,
we're going to jump in with both feet to counseling,
but just to prepare in advance if the worst does happen.
(37:50):
If this counseling fails and the relationship and we're unable
to restore the marriage a relationship we want to while
we're thinking clearly and while we're not at loggerheads with
each other, you know, sort out what would happen in
the event of a divorce, and in those sorts of
circumstances you do the post numb.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, that's the best time to do it.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
And I wish I was told and I knew about that,
because I would have done it when I was first
thinking about it, and that would have saved so much
time and a headache. And I think it would just
it would have made the process much easier. So I
think it's important to know about that, even when you
are married, you can still have a post.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Not it is one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
And like I said, I think there are so many
emotions and the average divorce case, there are so many
emotions swirling in the context of a divorce case because
think of it, every aspect of your life is going
to change. And in addition to the fact that many
people still harbor, you know, remaining remnants of the broken
relationship that they need to that they've kind of feel
(38:53):
like they need to get back at the other side on.
And in addition to those things that are kind of
swirling around, you also have a SITCHI and that where
your entire life is being turned upside down. So in
the context of that, we expect you, as divorce lawyers,
like hey, think clearly and be reasonable and try to
plan for you know, when we settle this divorce case,
what your life is going to look like five or
(39:13):
ten years from now. People are thinking like, I don't
even know what I'm having for breakfast tomorrow. Well, I'm
gonna be living six months from now. How how can
I think clearly about that? So again, I think when
you're outside of the divorce process, when there's not that pressure,
do the post note just in case. It's the most
cost effective thing you can do, and it will save
you months, years, tens of thousands of dollars and a
(39:36):
whole lot of aggravation and anxiety in the divorce process.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
What a life lesson. Well, thank you. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I hope this was very helpful for others because it
is to me and I'm still learning even being in
the middle of it, Like I learn every single day,
and I'm like, I wish I knew that before and
I wish there were, you know, I saw little clips
on tiktoks. I would see you all the time, and
that little guidance here and there can make such a
big difference.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So thank you, Thank you so much, Michelle, and listen,
I want to I want you to appreciate and understand
how valuable what you're doing is, because people who are
going through it right now what I tell them on
a regular basis, consume as much free content as you
can about the process and what happens.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And it's a magical thing when people gain.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
So when you go into the divorce process, there's a
whole bunch of unknowns, and the anxiety comes from the unknowns.
As you go through it and share what you've dealt
with and share your insights, you're making some of the
knowns or the unknowns for people knowns, or at least
they have an idea on what they can expect, and
that information brings down their anxiety and gives them calm.
(40:51):
And calm is what people need more than anything else when.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
They're going through the divorce process. So thank you for
what you do. Keep doing it.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
And I've also never been anxious person, and it's the
first time that. There are times I'm reviewing emails, I'm like,
I have anxiety, Like anxiety is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
And you can feel it in your chest.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm starting to
breathe better and good. I'm still in the middle of it,
but hopefully one day that will be in the past
and I can move to the future. And lastly, I think,
you know, when people get divorced, what is that rate
of redivorce? Because I still believe in marriage. I still
(41:33):
want to get married in the future one day.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
I think.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
I think the one statistic we haven't come up with
is what's the divorce rate for remarriage for people who
take the time to heal, who take the time to
unpack the baggage left.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Over from their first marriage.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I think we don't really have a reliable statistic on
that yet, but I think ultimately someday we will. The
second marriage rate is higher than the first marriage, right,
and it goes up from there. So first marriage little
over fifty percent, second marriage a little over sixty percent,
third marriage like seventy something percent. It's and it's in
large part because when people lead their first marriage 're
(42:13):
going into a second or a third one to fill
a void, and they shouldn't be trying to fill the
void with another person. They should be trying to fill
the void with their new sense of self. Yeah, and
I think if you unpack everything from your first relationship,
work on being the best you you can be, you'll
(42:33):
be in a situation where that void is filled by
a greater.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
You, and then you will attract the right partner.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
And those marriages, I think are the ones that are
going to last.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Perfectly said, all right, having to thank you, good to
talk with you, Michelle, have a great take you too
if they care. Bye.
Hey, everyone, thanks for coming back and coming along this
journey with me. Like I mentioned in the previous episodes,
I'm in the middle of a divorce. The end of
my marriage played out on reality TV, which really did
add an extra layer that's already difficult and a painful process.
As I found myself deciding to end my marriage, I
(00:25):
realized that I really didn't have a clue about the
divorce process. So I'm super excited for our guest today
because I have so many questions and I'm sure this
conversation will resonate with many of you. Welcome family law
attorney Dennis Bentrano, who also hosts his own podcast called
(00:45):
The DRV Law Show Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi Dennis, Hey Michelle, how are you good to meet you?
Good to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm so excited and I've been watching you for years.
I love I think you're so insightful and everything I've
seen on social media is incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You're very knowledgeable in what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be on the show.
It'll be a good opportunity for us to chat about
the process.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely, so I kind of want to start from the
very beginning. You know, most people when they get married,
they don't plan on getting divorced. So what is that
first thing someone should do when they start contemplating leaving
their spouse.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I always tell people when you utter those words for
the first time, I want a divorce, or threaten the divorce,
or you're having an argument back and forth and that
thought even crosses your mind, that's the point at which
you really need to, you know, step back and I
think be really thoughtful about the decision, because clearly it's
(01:45):
something you're contemplating and it's a huge decision to make.
Not that I'm discouraging people from doing it, but really
be thoughtful about, like making that ultimate decision. And once
you know that that's a direction you need to go
in in your life to reach that next phase of
your life or to turn that proverbial page, then it's
(02:06):
time to start surrounding yourself with a group of people
who are really just going to be your support team.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Absolutely, And for myself, you know, I did have friends
that were in the divorce process, so it was helpful
for me. They recommended attorneys, But I feel like if
you don't have friends who are in the same boat
as you, there's just so much there's just so much
information out there, Like what do you look for when
you're trying to find the right divorce attorney.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
That's a hard one. I think choosing the right lawyer
can be one of the most difficult decisions you'll make,
especially right out of the gate. But I think, look,
there's a couple of tips that I would have in
that regard. I think, certainly read reviews, Certainly consume as
much information as you can that's out there, because right
(02:56):
now we're at a very unique point in time in
that there's so much free information out there about navigating
the process. So start consuming that free information that's out there.
Read some reviews, take a look at some websites, and
then just go in and meet with people. I will
tell you the best divorce lawyers are also really good people,
(03:20):
and they tend to exude a level of confidence about
their craft. And you would be surprised how insightful a layperson,
somebody goes no legal training at all, can be about
choosing the right lawyer if they take their time and
they're thoughtful about it. When you go into a lawyer's office,
you know, nine times out of ten you're gonna know
you're gonna walk in the office. It's gonna look organized,
(03:41):
it's gonna look like a well put together operation. And
then when you meet with that lawyer, you know they're
gonna sit down and they're gonna talk to you.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
The good lawyers.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Are gonna make you feel like you're in the right place,
and you'd be surprised. Trust your gut, you'll know.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I feel the same way.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I interviewed a couple lawyers and I just, you know,
somebody who understood me, and I connected with them, and
I just felt like they would really push for me.
That's who I ended up going with.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Here's an important piece about that, Michelle.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Think about this.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You interviewed a few lawyers. That's a really important tip
right there. Make sure you don't go into a lawyer's
office like, oh, I'm gonna find this lawyer, this one
looks good, I'm gonna choose this one today. Don't go
into it in that way. Interview a few lawyers and
see where you feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, And I think I actually learned the wrong the
hard way. I learned the hard way because initially we
tried working with a mediator and we didn't ask any
questions and we just kind of found one and hired her,
and it just was not a good person for us
to work with.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I tell people when I do consultations, I say, after
I do a consultation with a client, I'll say, I
want you to go home and think about this, and
I want you to call us back if you feel
like we're a good fit for you. And that speaks
volumes anybody that's trying to like, Oh, don't worry about it,
I'll take care of it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I've got it all settled for you. I've got y'all
to get y'all taken care of.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Be cautious about those sort of approaches and those types
of personalities in either divorce mediation or in divorce law.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And so I didn't know anything about a mediator, And
so what do you know, if somebody can't afford an attorney,
what do you recommend.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I wholeheartedly believe in the divorce mediation process.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I really do.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think it's something that should work for most couples,
not all most, And I'll put a little asterisk next
to that, it's not you know, mediation can take on
multiple different forms, right. It can be two parties working
with a mediator, It can be two parties with their
(05:57):
own lawyers working with a mediator, or it can also
be the lawyers taking a large role and really being
involved in representing their clients in the context of the
mediation process. I mean, look, it's going to vary from
state to state and from you know, county to county
what the rules are. But I will say, generally speaking,
going into the divorce process, like I need to find
(06:21):
something that's fair in the form of an amicable resolution
that will get me to the other side. If that's
the mentality of both parties, mediation can work.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And then you just need to figure out which which
you know, system, which which type of mediation works best
for you. I always suggest, like, look, especially if it's
kids and there's a lot of complexities, and it's a
long term marriage and there's high assets, you know, you
probably best off each having your own lawyer and then
trying to work with a mediator on the things that
(06:55):
would be too costly or wasteful in terms of legal
fees having the lawyers go back and forth and back
and forth and back and forth.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I didn't know that. So you could have both an
attorney and a mediator.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
You can and the situations that we typically do. So
we have two certified divorce mediators here, I'm one of them.
We have multiple divorce attorneys, so we deal with every
type of scenario in terms of in the context of mediation.
We have situations where we're just the lawyers just sitting
on the sidelines, advising along the way, giving legal advice,
(07:29):
making sure that the agreement that you ultimately reached in
your case is fair to you, and making sure whichever
whatever written agreement you ultimately arrive at is correctly properly
drafted to ensure that it protects your interests.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
We do that.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
We've also been the mediator where there's lawyers. Each party
has their own lawyer and we're the mediator in the middle.
So I do think that tends to be the more
thorough approach. It is a little bit more costly, but
I do think it's worth it. It's, like I said,
complexities in your case where you feel like it's very
(08:03):
important to have a lawyer representing your interests, and yet
you really want to try to, you know, just get
a fair resolution and reach an agreement together.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I know it's a really broad question, but like I
had no idea going into a divorce, like, what can
the timeline be like realistically?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I mean, you know, it's funny I get this question
all the time and I usually tell people my fastest,
my quickest divorce that we've ever completed here was sixty
days start to finish. So that's from the date they
came into the office and sign a retainer agreement until
the date we had a judgment of divorce in hand.
So but that's like hyper speed. And that was a
(08:41):
situation where it's straightforward, limited assets, not a lot of
complexities with kids, and the parties came in and they said, hey,
you know, we've reached an agreement. We really just want
you guys to draft it up for us. And we
did that and we got it done pretty quickly. But
I have also seen those cases where and again these
are rare.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
But you do have them.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
A judge, you know, you change judges in your case
because the end of their term comes up, lawyer dies
or they change lawyers. And those cases are cases that
have pended for years, you know. In addition to obviously
there's motions back and forth and people are arguing about
the you know, the silliest things. So I think with divorces.
It's one of those things where it can be as
(09:20):
short as as possible, say sixty days, it can also
be years. And that's why, like I said, I think
it's very important when you go into the process that
you understand it is a humongous life change for both parties.
It can be such a complex not just from a
(09:41):
legal standpoint, but also from a mental and emotional standpoint.
Process to go through that you really need to you know,
get organized, understand the you know, and approach it in
stepwise fashion. Like, Hey, for the mental and emotional I
need to get a support team with me. I need
to have friends. I need to have a good lawyer.
I need to have maybe a counselor with me. Maybe
I need a divorce coach. You know, get prepared, get
(10:04):
a list of the things you need to do to start,
you know, a to do list, and then you know,
go down through the process.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, because I can say, even for my mental health,
like it's very taxing to constantly get emails and try
to find information and don't like I can't even imagine
not having a lawyer or some guidance.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
It's a tough process.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
And again I think for us as the lawyers. I
want to be your legal expert. Obviously, I'm so familiar
with every facet of the divorce process in that I've
done it for twenty five years, from everything for the
most simple divorce to the most complex, you know, acrimonious,
multimillion dollar construction company divorce. But I want to be
your lawyer. I don't want to be your counselor, and
(10:45):
I can't be your friend. But I want to tell you, hey,
you know, get get your support team together, do the
things you need to do to get your emotions under control,
and make sure you're okay mentally right, to really be
patient to get the right result throughout your case. And
then I'm going to help you get the fair result.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
And something I didn't know, Like I've always heard the
term before, but it's never really discussed, you know, prenups.
And recently I even learned about post once you're married.
Once you're married, that can be very helpful. I wish
I had more information about that. And it's like you
kind of get scared, like you're getting married to somebody.
(11:23):
The last thing you're thinking about is like, hey, let's
do a prenup, right, But what do you think about prenups.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And listen, I think prenups in a lot of ways
get a bad rap. I mean, if you watch the
content that I put out there, I've spent twenty five
years handling divorce cases. The best way for me to
help people is take that twenty five years of experience
for people and work backwards.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Okay, what could we have.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Done to help us either through the process or to
help us land in a better relationship or even keep
that relationship intact? And I think, I think you know
prenups is one of the things, and it's not for
the reasons that you know. The reason why I'm pro
pren up is not for the reasons people think I'm
(12:07):
pro prene up as much for the fact that it's
transparency at the outset as anything else. So think of
it like this, Before you get married, don't you want
to know what each of your finances is like? Don't
you don't you want to know what each of you
expects from the other should the worst happen? Because that
speaks volumes about people's personality and the person that you're
(12:30):
ultimately going to dedicate your life to. And I think
you know I'm finding that young professionals in today's day
and age are doing them more and more frequently. So yeah,
I'm a big proponent of prenups, and just as much
because it gives you transparency before you commit your life
(12:52):
to someone as any other reason.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Absolutely, and talk to me about how people change during
divorce and can even be unrecognizable.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Right, Yeah, it's funny because.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You got people at their worst.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
One hundred percent out there worth. So a couple of
a couple of things I'll share with you on that point.
I think you know, I heard this saying the other day,
and I think it's one hundred percent true. The person
you divorce is not the person you married.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
They're a different person.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And I think that's true not only because people you've
all when they change over time, and they also can
get nasty when the divorce process you know, comes on,
But I think you know also because in those sorts
of circumstances, you know, they they just change over time.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
So I think.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's just important when you're choosing someone to dedicate your
life to. When we keep get going back to you know,
like rewind, like, how do we start from a good
point in these circumstances?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And I always tell people like, if you're dating somebody,
take a look at how they treat their worst enemy.
Take a look at how they treat someone who makes
them mad.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
How do they react.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Are they the type of person that's going to chase
down somebody in a road race situation and go to
kick their windshield in? I mean, is this the sort
of person because you want to prepare for what is
this person going to be like in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
That is such great advice.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
That is amazing because I remember even with my ex,
like I loved him so much, and I saw how
he treated people when they did him wrong or he
was unhappy and it wasn't good. You know, his first
thought was like I want to sue you. I want
to get revenge. And I never thought of it like
I could one day be that person.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You could one day be on the other end of it.
So I'll give you a perfect, perfect example in my life.
They're a handful of people's people in a circumstance that
I dealt with recently who went far out of their
way to do wrong to me and wrong to my kid. Right,
But now I see them on a regular basis, and
I say Am I gonna harbor animosity towards this person.
(15:09):
Am I gonna dedicate energy to go after this person?
Or am I gonna say, you know what, what's in
the past is in the past. It's over and done with.
If they're nice to me, I'm gonna be nice to them,
you know. And that's why, like I always say, like,
if there were ever a circumstance where I were to
split from my wife and we've been happily married for years,
I would never go out of my way to try
(15:31):
to take something from her that was hers, or try
to or try to just get back at her just
for petty, you know, anger sort of things. And I
think that speaks to people's character. It really does. So
while you know, yes, it's true that people change over time,
and yes, the divorce process does get people to an
ugly place. And yes, you know, in the divorce process
(15:54):
most people are what they've always say is like two
or three degrees away from their normal base line personality
because such a stressful event. Yes, all those things are true,
but you know, good people are gonna be good people
at their core.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Absolutely, and that is I think one of the best
advices I've ever heard because it happened to me, and
you know in the beginning, you just don't think like that.
And I feel like looking at it first, like worse
comes to worse, what's going to happen?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think that's actually the best approach.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
How do you feel about people staying in marriages when
they are unhappy and they have children?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, I love that. Feel like you're modeling it. And
I'll give you an example. Or watch the video on
TikTok the other day, right, and they were talking about
father's raising daughters, and they said, one of the best
things you can do if you're a father raising a
daughter is to treat her mother well because you are
teaching her how she can expect to be treated by
(17:01):
a partner when she gets older. What can she expect
from her partner? Can she expect to be ridiculed? Can
she expect to be you know, built up? Can you
Can she expect somebody who's going to encourage her and
motivate her and inspire her or can she expect that
it's going to be the other direction? So I think
(17:22):
if you're in a relationship where your partner and I
think this especially goes for women and fathers and daughters,
because particularly it's something close to my heart because I
have a daughter right and I always am mindful of
trying to treat her mother well. Just keep in mind,
if you're in a relationship where your husband is treating
(17:42):
you poorly and your daughter is watching that happen over
and over again, you are modeling what she can believe
she can expect from another from her partner as she
gets older.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So yes, I.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Believe if you're in a situation where you know it's
toxic or worse she had its abuse, or it's a
situation where you're just gonna never get to the next step,
the next page in your life leading to happiness in
your life, you need to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I'm very happy you said that because my life coach
actually told me that, and that's how I opened up
my eyes because I never saw it that way. I
didn't realize, like, my daughter is going to watch how
a man treats me. And he had asked me like,
would you want a man to treat your daughter that way?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And listen, just let that statement lie for a little
for a few minutes. I mean, listeners need to really
take that to heart. Would you want a man to
treat your daughter that way.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, And I think I've gotten a lot of criticism that,
you know, thinking the old school way, like no matter what,
even if you're unhappy, you stay in the marriage. And
I think it's the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
It is it is, And I think the toxicity for
kids they soak up.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Give another piece of information.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
A lot of the divorces that I get where women
come forward and they say, hey, it's it's time for
me to pull the trigger and say and you know
what they say was the was the proverbial last straw.
Their kid said something to them. Their kid said, Mom,
it's it's time. Mom, it's you can't keep putting up
(19:22):
with this. Kids know when they're and they're soaking it
up like sponges. We think that, you know, oh they're
they're in their bedroom and they're sleeping, or they're hiding
around the court.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Listen, my daughter will.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
They're always listening. That is something I learned. Even with
my four year old daughter. It's like, oh, yeah, they
have double ears.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
The ears, the walls have ears, for sure. Oh yeah,
we've all had those. Middle of the night. My daughter
will and she's like listen, she's like a cat.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Burglar in the middle of the night, I'll she'll just
her head will pop out from behind the date bed
in our bedroom and there she is.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I didn't even hear it come in.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
These kids are smart nowadays.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
They are.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So as an expert in your field, can you spot
a couple who's doomed before they even know it?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Ooh yeah, yeah, I can spot the signs. I mean again,
and I think, you know, I hate to keep coming
back to this, but I think, especially for women, you know,
one of the good one indicator for me is like,
and I was thinking this as we were talking earlier, like,
are you with a partner who would be comfortable when
(20:27):
you're in the spotlight and there in the shadows?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
M good way?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
They always need to be like, well, I'm in the
spotlight and you're back here?
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Is that the dynamic there?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And there are times where and that was one of
the other pieces from that video that I watched, like,
you know, there are times where you know you need
to be in the lead. They need to be building
you up, they need to be supporting you, they need
to be behind you, and then you do the same
for them. But it can never be a circumstance where
they're trying to take away from you. You know, I've
seen those relationships like you're out of you know, cocktail
(21:00):
or whatever, you know, you know, like Harry and Harry
and Sally go to the party and like, you know, yeah,
oh you know Sally never you know, she's she's not
very smart, she doesn't know yo.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
She'd never lit, are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You hear stuff like that, Like if you talk to me,
either in my wife's presence or outside of her presence,
you will hear me talk about her like she's a
fucking rock star. Excuse my friends, because she is. That's
but right, I'm inspired by her, I'm motivated by her,
and sometimes I look at her, I'm like, shit, I
(21:33):
gotta I really got to pick up my game, man,
this lady's killing it.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
And and you know, but that's what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So when you see a dynamic where that's not present,
or it's like, you know, I'm picking up this for
him or I'm doing that for him, and like, yes,
you're going to do it for each other. But if
it's not a give and take, if it's not a
two way street, then you got to question what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, and that will always change throughout life. There's always
going to be one person.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That achieves more, does more, and it's the cycle of life.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's and so being there for one another, having that
partnership is so important. And you know marriage is supposed
to be many many years, so it's like there'll be
ups and downs, but supporting on one another is crucial.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
It's one hundred percent. And it's funny.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I was watching a video that I consume a lot
of social media content, not just to get ideas for
my own stuff, but but just because I love the area.
But they said there's three things your spouse should be doing.
They should either be motivating you and inspiring you to
be the best you you can be and be like
your cheerleader. Or they should be helping support you. Or
(22:42):
they should be getting the hell out of your way.
And I somewhat disagree with the last one. But they
can't be bringing you down, they can't be holding you back. Now,
I think it's it's cheerleader or motivating and supporting you.
I don't even think it should be a neutral. I
don't even think they should be sitting in a situation
where they're just staying out of your way. I think
they should be behind you the whole way, all of it,
(23:05):
and it definitely should never be where they're holding you
back or discouraging you.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, the end of my first season, I remember not
to go too much into detail, but I was having
brunch with my ex and my daughter and we had
just finished a whole season, and out of nowhere, he
just kind of kept saying, like, you should thank me
that I put you on TV, and kind of bringing
me down. And that was another moment that I opened
(23:32):
up my eyes. I'm like, you're supposed to be my husband,
my partner, thank you, Like this is something we did together,
Like we should be celebrating together. You shouldn't try to
pull me down. And I felt like that's what kept
happening to me.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It was always about him and never about.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Me and diminishing me, and that is what broke me
down at the very end, and I was like, what
am I doing?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
My worth is like I don't deserve this.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I don't deserve to have somebody treat and talk to
me like that.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I mean they have to be a situation where they're
giving you the credit that you deserve. And again we
come back to the situation I was talking about earlier.
You have to be in situations where they are comfortable
giving you there and a lot of it, I think
is ego.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
It's like, oh, it's got to be me. It's got
to be me.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
It's always got it's always got to be all about me.
That's fine. I love ego to the extent that it
means that you're confident and that you're you're driven to
get ahead. But you got to check that damn ego
and support your partner, you know, and you got to
let them know how much you appreciate them.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's funny.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I was watching an interview the other day about from
u Selena Gomez and Bennie Blanco and they were talking
about their relations.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I've seen that so many times.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Oh my god, I love it so much. He supports
her so much. I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And I think that's why people love it, because men
don't support women as much as they should.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, yeah, and that and let me tell you so
here's so here's what's so funny about that. You know,
you'll you'll hear from like the guys on my social media's.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Oh that's a SIMP. That is a BS.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
That is the most confident man, the man who does
not feel challenged by the fact that his woman is
his wife.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
His partner is just amazing.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
As a matter of fact, they should feel complimented by
it and support them in every way they can.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
That's why I love those videos, those clips of that.
I love it so much.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Me too, And you can see that she appreciates that
and she loves him that much more because she has
such a supportive partner.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
And he is not challenged one iota buy it, and
neither is she. And that's what makes for the great partnership.
And great partnerships are what they're really at its core,
what great marriages are about.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, I'm curious for myself, Like, do you see now
more women asking for the divorce and filing first?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, the percentages have always been higher for women. It's
roughly about sixty five or so percent filed by women.
But I think, you know, there's good reason for that.
But I think the funny part about it is people think,
because of those statistics, and I think mainly men think
because of those statistics that women are just like, oh uh,
(26:22):
this guy doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
I want a divorce.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
That is not the way it works.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
On average.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Women spend years painstakingly, you know, trying to restore the
merits or relationship and send signals and communicate and like
and end up in a situation. And that's why when
you get to the divorce process, many women have been like,
you know, like like the situation we were talking about earlier,
(26:50):
just like feeling like, you know, they did all these
things and they get no credit and there's no support,
and they're like mentally and emotionally, it's about getting past that,
getting to that next level. That's why the mental and
emotional peace is so important at the outset of the
divorce situation, because you know, the ladies have really spent
a long time pining over this decision, and it's one
(27:12):
of the toughest decisions they have to make.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, I can't imagine a woman just wakes up one
day it's like, Okay, I want to file for divorce.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
No, of course not. It takes so long.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
It does, And I think women really internalize it in
my experience that they feel a sense of shame, they
feel a sense of failure, they feel a sense of
like like it's like it's their fault in a way,
and in as part of the process, you know, one
(27:44):
of the most important things you could do is like
unpack all of that. You don't get through all of
that because clearly it's not your fault and manute and
in many cases it's very small percentage your fault, if
at all.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So I did think it was my fault because I
was the person who made the final decision. But now
with therapy, I've learned that no, it's I just did
the right thing, and I did the right thing for
myself and for my daughter.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, And I think the funny part about it is
that usually the people on the other side of those
circumstances will use every clever trick that they can to
keep your self esteem, you know, and keep your motivation
to get to the next level down right. They'll say, like,
you know, perfect sample, which is like until what you
were talking about earlier. They'll say like, well, you'll never
find anybody who will love you as much as I do. Well,
(28:34):
how does that devalue that person?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Well, they're only you know, how could they possibly find
somebody as great as this other person to love.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Them like they love them?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Well, no, they're worth that and so much more. And
that's why again, like that Benny Blanco thing, like I
tell her I love her every day and she gets
tired of it, and I you know, explained to you know,
talk to her about how great she is and where
you know, as guys, we're not great at that.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I think it takes effort, It takes work. But you know,
for any guys that are listening, say, if you are
with a great lady, go home and tell her today
you're fucking awesome, man, Like I am so.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Lucky to be And how easy is that?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
How easy is it to give an affirmation, to give
a compliment, to just be like, hey, you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I think that's all women really want.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think just people in general
want to feel appreciated, and I think especially for women,
especially for the ones who are really killing it, who
are doing it all, which which comprises a large majority
of the women that we represent. They're doing everything, they're
with the kids, they're with businesses, they're making the money,
they're taking care of, doing all these things. And then like, well,
(29:43):
you didn't do this for me, or you didn't You'll
never find anybody else who are going to love you
like I do im.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I was like, whoa.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Wait a second, Well show.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
You right right.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
I mean, I'm looking in from the outside saying this,
This lady's way out of your class, dude.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
A couple more things I wanted to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So I was having a dinner with my girlfriend who's
also getting divorced, and so something she said to me
that I had never even thought of. She was like,
you know, when you're in the divorce and you're in
a room or in the house with the ex, you know,
an argument can get heated and you can start screaming.
And she actually knows a lot of people who call
(30:25):
nine one one or gets arrested, and it was kind
of a joke, but she was like, no, this is
actually very important because nobody talks. She's like, if I
would have known, I wouldn't have dialed nine one one.
But you're just in the heat of the moment, Like,
what what do you suggest when you are in a
room and you know you're just arguing and it just
(30:48):
gets heated.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I always try to counsel clients to keep things as
vanilla as is possible. I think it starts from a
situation where again the same. You have to remember that
the same dynamic throughout that developed throughout your marriage. The
other party, especially if it's a toxic relationship, is going
to think post divorce, business as usual. I'm gonna talk
(31:14):
to you the way I used to talk to you.
I'm gonna treat you the way I used to treat you,
and for many it's poorly And I think the shift
is to realize you don't need to tolerate that. You
don't need to listen to that. If they're gonna raise
their voice, or they're gonna curse, or they're gonna do
or they're gonna direct any communications towards you that have
(31:36):
no useful, reasonable purpose, like talking about what the pickup
and drop off is gonna be for the kids, or
talking about how you're gonna you know, how you're gonna
filew your taxes, walk out the door, goodbye. Absolutely, phone call,
phone call, click. I don't need to tolerate that anymore.
I'm not your whipping post. Okay, I'm not gonna be
(31:58):
bullied and I don't need to listen to this garbage.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Now.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Obviously you do that in consultation with your lawyer, because
sometimes you want to be strategic about that because a
lot of times they'll surreptitiously try to like draw you in. Well,
I'm going to try to push their buttons until they
get aggravated, and then I'm going to go to the
judge and say, well, they wouldn't talk to me about
the kids.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, because would that affect the custody agreement or does
that affect it?
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Can? It can?
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But I think it's it's important to draw that line.
It's important to know that that raising the voice foul
language any level of abuse. I mean certainly anything physical
should does not and should not be tolerated. And I think,
you know, I have to be cautious when we're in
(32:43):
this space because if you're in a situation where there's
been physical violence, or there's been any level of domestic
violence in the past, absolutely one call the police. Your
safety is the most important thing, and everything follows from that,
your physical and then mental and emotional safety, physical safety,
(33:07):
police right lawyer, prosecution, those sorts of things. You know,
the hotline you can always reach out to if you
need to find a way to get safely out of
a domestic violence relationship. You can just google hashtag the hotline.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
But other than.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Immediate safety safety plan police. If it's just verbal and
there's no domestic violence, you don't have to tolerate it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And as easy as that sounds, that is so hard
in the moment. It is you want to go that
back and forth and prove your point, and you.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Know do you do?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
But I think what is that doing to you? If
you do that, it's eating you up. And that's why
let's back up a little bit. I want you to
unpack all of the proverbial shit you dealt with in
that relationship throughout. Unpack that in a therapist's office and
deal with it. Okay, I know, you know, and I
(34:06):
think people don't appreciate how much there is to deal
with prior to the divorce process. Because once you get
your arms around that and work with your counselor your
therapists to develop mechanisms to deal with this person on
the other side of your situation, you will be in
a healthy space to say, I'm going to take this.
(34:26):
I don't need to prove any point to them, I
don't need to answer to them in any way. There's
no remnant of the broken relationship that I need to
air my grievances with them.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
I'm done with them.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
The best thing you can do for yourself and to
prove anything to them is to walk out the door.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
That's my philosophy now, and it took me some time
to learn. I was like, I don't need to deal
with this. I don't have to hear it.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I have a lawyer email done one hundred percent, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
And then I want to ask two questions that I
get asked often. I think I know the answers to this,
but a lot of women don't. You know a lot
of people have a lot of women have beautiful, big
engagement rings and they're like, what do I do? Do
I give it back to them? And I said that
it's a gift. That's what I was told. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It depends on your state. So let's put it this way.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
I'm a New York state divorce lawyer. So typically the
engagement ring is a gift and it's you know, and
it's dealt with in that way through the through the
divorce process. But I think I would be cautious about
it and talk with your lawyer about your state's laws,
because remember, divorce laws will vary from state to state.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Okay, and these are conversations you really need to have
before you get married, like how can you get married
to somebody spend the rest of your life with them,
but don't know their financial situation?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Let that lie for a little bit, because I'll tell
you that is a piece of very valuable sound advice.
And not just understand how important what you just said is.
It's not just about the divorce process, but it's just
as much about building a relationship that will last. It
starts with transparency. Know how that person's going to react
(36:09):
in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Know how they make their money.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Know what their debts are, Like, what are their assets
if we were divorce, what do you expect from me? Well,
I want you to be a stay at home mom,
but I don't want to give you any assets if
we divorce. We'll wait a second. If I'm helping you
build all this money and then you want to just
walk out the door that your so again, I think
(36:34):
the prenup is a way, like you said, to have
transparency from the outset.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Know all of these things.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Okay, And what is it called the post Once you're
already married.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
There's a post nup. So in post nups, it's funny,
there's a there so. So in New York State, we
do divorce agreements, which is generally a written contract and
agreement that provides for every possible issue that would come
up in the context of your divorce case. You can
do it prior to the marriage it's called a prenup.
You can do it post the marriage, and during the marriage,
(37:08):
which is called a post up. And then if you're
doing it in anticipation of a divorce, it's typically called
a separation agreement. And then in the context of your
divorce case, the written contract that settles all the issues
if you reach an amicable agreement between the two parties,
is basically called a divorce settlement agreement. All four of
these agreements need to meet the same standards under the
(37:29):
New York State divorce law, very similar in sum and substance.
So pren up, yes, transparency, do it early. Post up
is a situation where if your marriage is on the
rocks but you're trying to work on it, and you say, hey,
we're going to jump in with both feet to counseling,
but just to prepare in advance if the worst does happen.
(37:50):
If this counseling fails and the relationship and we're unable
to restore the marriage a relationship we want to while
we're thinking clearly and while we're not at loggerheads with
each other, you know, sort out what would happen in
the event of a divorce, and in those sorts of
circumstances you do the post numb.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, that's the best time to do it.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
And I wish I was told and I knew about that,
because I would have done it when I was first
thinking about it, and that would have saved so much
time and a headache. And I think it would just
it would have made the process much easier. So I
think it's important to know about that, even when you
are married, you can still have a post.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Not it is one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
And like I said, I think there are so many
emotions and the average divorce case, there are so many
emotions swirling in the context of a divorce case because
think of it, every aspect of your life is going
to change. And in addition to the fact that many
people still harbor, you know, remaining remnants of the broken
relationship that they need to that they've kind of feel
(38:53):
like they need to get back at the other side on.
And in addition to those things that are kind of
swirling around, you also have a SITCHI and that where
your entire life is being turned upside down. So in
the context of that, we expect you, as divorce lawyers,
like hey, think clearly and be reasonable and try to
plan for you know, when we settle this divorce case,
what your life is going to look like five or
(39:13):
ten years from now. People are thinking like, I don't
even know what I'm having for breakfast tomorrow. Well, I'm
gonna be living six months from now. How how can
I think clearly about that? So again, I think when
you're outside of the divorce process, when there's not that pressure,
do the post note just in case. It's the most
cost effective thing you can do, and it will save
you months, years, tens of thousands of dollars and a
(39:36):
whole lot of aggravation and anxiety in the divorce process.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
What a life lesson. Well, thank you. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I hope this was very helpful for others because it
is to me and I'm still learning even being in
the middle of it, Like I learn every single day,
and I'm like, I wish I knew that before and
I wish there were, you know, I saw little clips
on tiktoks. I would see you all the time, and
that little guidance here and there can make such a
big difference.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So thank you, Thank you so much, Michelle, and listen,
I want to I want you to appreciate and understand
how valuable what you're doing is, because people who are
going through it right now what I tell them on
a regular basis, consume as much free content as you
can about the process and what happens.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And it's a magical thing when people gain.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
So when you go into the divorce process, there's a
whole bunch of unknowns, and the anxiety comes from the unknowns.
As you go through it and share what you've dealt
with and share your insights, you're making some of the
knowns or the unknowns for people knowns, or at least
they have an idea on what they can expect, and
that information brings down their anxiety and gives them calm.
(40:51):
And calm is what people need more than anything else when.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
They're going through the divorce process. So thank you for
what you do. Keep doing it.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
And I've also never been anxious person, and it's the
first time that. There are times I'm reviewing emails, I'm like,
I have anxiety, Like anxiety is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
And you can feel it in your chest.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm starting to
breathe better and good. I'm still in the middle of it,
but hopefully one day that will be in the past
and I can move to the future. And lastly, I think,
you know, when people get divorced, what is that rate
of redivorce? Because I still believe in marriage. I still
(41:33):
want to get married in the future one day.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
I think.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
I think the one statistic we haven't come up with
is what's the divorce rate for remarriage for people who
take the time to heal, who take the time to
unpack the baggage left.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Over from their first marriage.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I think we don't really have a reliable statistic on
that yet, but I think ultimately someday we will. The
second marriage rate is higher than the first marriage, right,
and it goes up from there. So first marriage little
over fifty percent, second marriage a little over sixty percent,
third marriage like seventy something percent. It's and it's in
large part because when people lead their first marriage 're
(42:13):
going into a second or a third one to fill
a void, and they shouldn't be trying to fill the
void with another person. They should be trying to fill
the void with their new sense of self. Yeah, and
I think if you unpack everything from your first relationship,
work on being the best you you can be, you'll
(42:33):
be in a situation where that void is filled by
a greater.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
You, and then you will attract the right partner.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
And those marriages, I think are the ones that are
going to last.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Perfectly said, all right, having to thank you, good to
talk with you, Michelle, have a great take you too
if they care. Bye.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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