February 20, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of The Official Yellowstone Podcast, host Bobby Bones sits down with Gil Birmingham, the talented actor behind Chief Thomas Rainwater, to discuss the multifaceted nature of his role on Yellowstone. Gil reflects on how he brings nuance to playing both a "good guy" and "bad guy" and shares fascinating insights into his diverse journey—from his early career as a petrochemical engineer to his unexpected path into acting. Listen as Gil opens up about his bodybuilding days, his experience with Taylor Sheridan’s films, and the deep connection he has to his character. Plus, Gil shares his love for music, life philosophies, and thoughts on the future of the entertainment industry. This is a conversation you won’t want to miss!
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Episode five of the official Yellowstone Podcast. I am your host,
Bobby Bones. The first four episodes have gotten great feedback,
Thank you so much, a lot of downloads, so thank
you so much for that.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
This has been crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
At how much you guys wanted this, and I think
I've done an adequate job. So the fact that you
guys are listening so much means you just you love Yellowstone,
which is completely understandable. This episode has Chief Thomas Rainwater,
whose real name is Gil Birmingham, major character, and I
just talked to him about how he's able to be
like a bad guy and a good guy. And obviously
(00:41):
he's very cerebral as an actor, so he doesn't only
see it like I do watching where I'm like bad guy,
good guy, bad guy, good guy. But Gil, like the
actual person, has a crazy journey getting into his career
as an actor. He was an engineer, then he kind
of got into acting and there's some bodybuilding in there.
You're gonna hear about all this been and a few
f Taylor Sheridan's movies Hell or High Water, wind River
(01:04):
has had a roll in a bunch of other big
time shows. His character in Yellowstone again, it's so awesome
because he took you on the journey of I like him,
I don't like him. I don't know if I do
or not I trust him, I don't trust him. So
we were pumped to get him on the podcast. You
can follow him on Instagram at Gil Birmingham Here he
is Chief Thomas Rainwater aka real name Gil Birmingham. Hey, Gil,
(01:37):
I'd like to say this that why I'm such a
fan of your work is because through Yellowstone in general,
and I've seen you and other things too, but you
were able to both be a bad guy and a
good guy and that there is some range to that
that I don't even understand. And as an actor, whenever
(01:57):
you're a we think you're a bad guy, right, were like,
Oh the Dutons is it? Whenever you're bad? Are you
playing that at all? Different facial expressions? What's the difference
in playing a bad guy and a good guy even
though it's the same person.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
I always find it interesting that people want to categorize
the bad guy's bay and the antithesis of who the
the anti hero for example, and Yellowstone is my approach
character development is always to comfort the heart and from
the intention of the agenda that character has, and when
people come up and tell me you make such a
bad such a great bad guy, always reminded him that
(02:32):
I haven't killed anybody.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
On the show. Who's really the bad guy here. It's
the structure of the storyline.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
But I don't think any actor really to fully accept
the character. And you probably know this to some degree,
and you're all experienced that as you're playing the character,
you can't judge them for whatever it is that they are.
They think they're right, they think they're justified for what
they do. But my development of that character was always
for the interest of my people who save the land,
and this was just an obstacle Dunton family and which
(03:01):
I was going to approach that.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
My theory about Chief was if you did his story
from his perspective, he would have been the good guy,
much like in The Avengers, you know, whenever you got
the guy with the rings and he's wasn't it dan O's.
I think if you shot Danos a story, he'd been
a good guy because he's trying to save the earth.
I think had you shot Chief Rainwater from his perspective,
he would have been the good guy. And the Dunn's
(03:24):
would have been the bad guys. Again, like you said,
it's all perspective. There was that transition during the show
where we start to warm up because again it's shot
from the Duntons, so we're like, oh, this guy could
be against the Duntons, so we're against him. But then
you became like this wonderfully warm guy without really changing.
I loved your character when they told you what you
were going to do for the show. How did they
(03:45):
approach you with the character?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Oh, you're Taylor, the brilliant writer of the show. Creator.
He approached me with a yellowstone back in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I had no concept of what in storyline was, but
we were filming Hell or High Water and he told me,
I've got this character for this series that I've developed
that I cast you as. So I didn't know the
nature of the depth of the character or what it
is that he had in mind. But after Hell or
High Water I did wedd River. I was all on
(04:14):
board or all things Taylor Sheridan.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Whenever you are reading a script and you realize something
big is happening with your character, something that is paramount
to the storyline, were you ever shocked while going through
the Yellowstone Script through all the seasons.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I don't know that.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I was maybe not so much an op and Thomas
Rainwaters storyline outside of the I think it was season
three or four where we had angela blue thunder trying
to undermine his chairmanship. I wasn't expecting that. That's what
great television is is drama. I think a lot of
the surprises really were in reference to the Duttons, because
(04:53):
there was so much, so much more drama lyric, you know,
in terms of people that were trying to take the
land over and the.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Transition as you were.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, reference was really the understanding that Thomas Rainwater
had more in collin with John Dutton than neither one
of them maybe understood. And I think it was so
much it was as much summed up in a line
where we want the same things for different.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Reasons, and that was the preservation of the land.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I think that was the highest integrity of character for
both of those characters.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Can you explain to me, because you're a wildly intelligent guy,
obviously to play the character that you play with the
nuance that you play it, but then a petrochemical engineer,
can you tell me what a petrochemical engineer.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
That was back in the eighties, and I got directed
to a format that my parents thought was going to
be something I could do make a decent living, and
it was an engineering.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And I just had an opportunity at the time.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
And when you're young, you're just looking for something to
support yourself, and that seemed like a good one at
the time. It really didn't speak to me because I
only did it for about five years. Most of my
life has been windows or doors that were opened and
I walked through them and we'll see what happens here.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It seems like you've had a wonderfully amazing Swiss Army
Knife of a life and career.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You're so good at a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I was also reading about you, like bodybuilding, being just
extremely ripped up. So not only smart, good looking guy,
also crazy muscles. So what was the bodybuilding phase.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Of your life?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
I think I've just I'm had somewhat of a suppressed
kind of upbringing.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
It was very isolated.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I had a very religious mother and a military father,
and there was a lot of containment and it just
wasn't my spirit. I was more of an artist or
a creative I picked up the guitar at ten and
that's really what I thought I wanted to do with
my life, was to be a musician. If I used
to just train their goals gym the Meca Bodybuilding on
it in the Vins, California, and I had saved up
(06:56):
a little bit of money and I wanted to explore
something different. It just fast me that you could take
the human form and cheap it like a Greek statue.
So it seemed like a healthy lifestyle for one. And
I was there with all these examples of people that
were doing that, and I was intrigued by what you
could do with the body. And it actually was the
(07:16):
injury into my acting profession because I got scouted in
the gym, did a couple of works on a music video.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
I had a great time. My girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Was an aspiring actress and she suggested I started taking
some classes and that's where it started.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
To do something in art. As I've learned through the years,
it's ebbs and flows, really unsteady, also wildly rewarding. And
for me, I have a massive insecurity complex. I always
think I'm not good enough to leave a job like
an engineer to go into the world of the arts.
The income is not steady. Was that ever a concern
(07:55):
for you because there wasn't stability?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
We all, anybody in the arts has a level of insecurity,
of feeling that you're not enough. I guess that's one
of the great challenges of propelling yourself to do something
that you're definitely scared initially, but the excitement of the
potential is more compelling. I guess I saved up my
money from the engineering and I knew I had some
(08:21):
leeway there to be able to explore this other thing,
and then it led to other work more along the
lines of entertainment and understanding. I guess accepting that notion,
how committed are you to this that you're willing to
make all the sacrifices for who knows how long?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
It was a long time.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Before I was able to support myself in my profession
now a good ten years, twelve years, and.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Learned to live very sparsely. I've always lived like I'm
in a college dorm, so I didn't have big overhead expenses.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
What is your favorite book?
Speaker 5 (08:55):
I would say The Power of Now.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
I reard again recently for like second time it.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Oh yeah, that really was a pivotal conscious surn around
for me, and it's still I've gone through it a
couple of times. Just the reminder of many of those
things that Cartold talked about being present, and there's really
nothing else that exists besides that.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's the only thing that exists, is right the second
I had such a struggle with that until I read
it the.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
First time, and I had a good experience with it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
But then when I read it the second time, it's
almost like watching a great movie with a ton of
nuance in it. In the second time, you catch a
lot of the things. And when I read it the
second time, that was exactly what I was going to say,
was the only thing we actually have is right now.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Yeah, it was a real transitional awareness for me that
still I try to remind myself every day.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
What from your childhood did you bring into the character?
If anything?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Oddly enough, I had shared my life with Taylor to
some extent, and then I read the script and the
characters for purposes of protection. Mccarris didn't really and let
us know we were even native, you know, until I was
like fourteen. And that's exactly the way Thomas Rainwater was
presented that he didn't realize he was native until he
(10:31):
was eighteen. He'saw the adoption papers. That was amazing parallel
for me, this is my life.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
You know. Taylor's so great at that.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
He's such an observing person and he really knows how
to integrate either personal.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
History, his own experiences, the nature of.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
The way he observes the world and the climate that
we're in socially, politically, and environmentally.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
I thought that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It seems to me that Taylor's very hands on in
a very positive way, just from the other folks from
either this podcast or in other areas that I know
that have worked with Taylor. Would you say that is accurate?
And what is his approach like person to person? Is
it different for every single person.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I always see knownan since twenty sixteen, and they've had
me out the ranch there in their home several times.
I don't really see him interacting any differently. He might
have more of a he did debate if he's talking
to a production company or other producers. He's a very
strong willed individual and very straightforward shooting. I wish I
(11:34):
could talk the way because at least in the way
that he puts it doubt on paper. I have an
appreciation of understanding in my own mind the nature of
what it takes to be where he is, and knowing
a bit of a history about where he came from.
He's really one of those racts of riches story, you know,
being an action for twenty years himself, and it's such
(11:54):
an inspiration to really see somebody that steps out and says,
I'm going to try something. Maybe that's what I related
to from my engineering to my body bilding into my
acting and just taking the risks and then finding out
all the amazing kind of potential and talent you might
with this latent there for for the longest time and
now you're actualizing it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
How far in advance would you guys get scripts up
into this last season, which we didn't get any scripts.
We would get them probably a month before we started shooting.
The last season was.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Really odd because they were all redacted scripts.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
They were really keeping it undercover, so you would get
the scenes you were in, but you wouldn't get the
storyline any of the other characters.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
That was fortunate for me because Thomas Randwater didn't really have.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
That in the interactions with any of the other characters,
but John Dutt. That was really a new experience for us,
for a group of people to spend seven years together
for the first time, We're not going to know what
everybody else is doing.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
At what point in the show did you start to
get recognized as your character?
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Oh? What's interesting because it occurred in different regions.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Not so much in southern California, but I've traveled to Australia,
New Zealand, Canada, and I'll have these fan bases that
are approach me in these areas that I wouldn't think
I don't even know what the go stone is globally,
but I wouldn't think of them as being particularly familiar
with the show. But oftentimes it's areas that are either
(13:23):
as the industry in cattle, ranching, oil. Those are the
big demographics for the show. Oddly enough, it seems to
be growing even though the show is completed itself. I
don't know if people are catching up to it now,
but yeah, it's been interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Now that the show is over and it's time for
you to go and find your next job, there have
been some pretty cool opportunities to come across that.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Do you read through a bunch do you audition?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
How does that work now now that you're a known
entity and you're really good?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So is that helping now?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
It's a real roller coaster. I thank for anybody in
the industry. You can feel like you're really hot. You
can be at a big show and I reflect sometimes and
what they call the Oscar curse. You would think your
career is just them to take off right, and time
after time you'll hear of ours that things were dead
for like a couple of years. For me personally, I
(14:16):
know the industry is changing. I know there's a big
pullback in general across the board. There's all these AI concerns.
Production companies are merging and the financials are being pulled back,
so not as many productions are going to be done.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
I just have to trust, have patients, and trust that
something will pop up. They really are practiced.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Me.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Nothing in particular that I've read at this point has
really made me feel like, yeah, I really want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Are you good at reading a script and knowing if
something is great and grabs you?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
No remember reading Hail or High Water and I was going, oh, yeah,
this is a fairly good script. Jeff working with Jeff Bridges.
Now I'll being Crispine been thought okay, I don't know
where this movie's going to go, and never sitting there
at the Oscars.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
So you played Ben in Heller high Water? What was
that experience?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like, justai, I have a hundred questions, so I just
want to ask a very vague one, giving me like
a an you know, a memory from Hell or high
Water that I think was cool.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
I think, well, there's several. One that sticks out to
me is that Jeff and I had about two weeks.
I mean we shot that show in like five weeks.
There was a really small window and when I learned
about all the machinations behind the scenes, it just amazes
me that it got made. Originally, it got turned down
from a bunch of people, and then Appierceder came on
(15:43):
and said, the script right now is it's got a
stake to it right now, stick it off the market
and then we'll reintroduce it. And we had a producer
that stepped in and financed it. But to develop a
relationship that we had like good friends, been working together
for twenty years, and let it develop that in a
couple of weeks. It was the music because Jeff is
(16:04):
a musician. I'm a musician, and it was when we
would jam together, there was really a connection which was
just perfect and just our improv stuff.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
There was a bit of improv between us. It still tickles, right.
I just watched it.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I guess it just got put on Showtime or HBO
or something, and I'll just get drawn into it, not
just for the experience of the memory, but just how
really great a script that was, and how great everybody
in it was.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Let's talk music for a second, Mount rushmore a favorite artist.
Give me your four favorite It's going to impossible, because
somebody that knows music, loves music, and plays music. It's
an impossible question, and I'm putting it on you here
for your four favorite artists of all time.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Oh, I think maybe number one have to be these
raged idiots.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
No, you don't want a power washer to that faces
out of there, out of there, Cancel, cancel, cancel ansel Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
I listen. I was a guitar player. You know, it's
Jimmy Hendrix and affected me.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I was so focused on and I have some summar
regret to that because I wasn't the ponder of lyrics
and the power of the language was Jimmy Henry, x Ce,
Ray Vaughn, Eric Clapton, Joe Softrianna here you know, Eric Johnson,
all the guitar heroes, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, such a.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Geek of rock, classic rock guitar.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
There is a Stevie Ray Vaughan clips one of my
favorite ever where he's playing Austin City Limits and his
guitar string breaks and he's able to change a string
while he's still playing this solo. That to me is
why I love Steve or a vaugh because he was
he was so natural with his instrument. It was like
a body part that he can again, he can change
a string as he's playing.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Me, if I'm changing a string, I need ten minutes.
I need to retune. I gotta get my tune to
put it on my knee. I got the whole thing there.
But yeah, and with Jimmy Hendrix, I'm left handed.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I play left handed, but Jimmy Hendrix kind of screwed
me up because he played upside down left handed, so
I didn't. He played like in the most difficult left
handed way where I actually bought a left handed guitar
and switched it around. But yeah, no, I am I
am a music nerd to where when you mentioned all
those guys like that excites me a whole lot.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
How often you play now?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Not nearly enough anymore. You probably know this. When you're
playing in a band and you're digging out, that's when
you play the most. That's when you're on top of
your chops and everything.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I always feel bad thinking about having a talent that
I'm exercising more regularly. So I haven't really been playing
outside of certainly not out of bands. Maybe on set
it was jamming, not like I really should or one two.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
That's super cool that you're so musical. Was there a
dream of being in a band. Were you ever in
a band as a kid? I know you said he played,
but would you ever get together with friends and like
think you'd make it?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Per a second?
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Oh yeah, that was my dream.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I still when people talked about having a purpose in
life or what was their dream, it was the moment
I picked up at guitar at ten years old.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I said this is it. In my naivete, I said
I'm going to be a rock star.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So it's funny that I got detoured off into another direction.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
I lived vicariously through these musicians.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
I met Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban the other night
of the charity function were doing, and I chatted with Keith.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I was just sharing that with and I said, you
played with such joy and freedom. It's everything that I
imagine what music means when I play it. And he
said the critical thing that he always remembers is to
play the playfulness of playing like any other thing. Like
you'll do something if it's forge and music as a kid,
(19:53):
and you did it because you loved it. Until if
it became a profession, then there's all these other things
and attachments, lots of abilities and distract you from it.
That really resonated for me.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Keith Urban is actually a really good friend of mine.
And yeah, to watch him play if it's for ten
people or for ten thousand, and did he play at
the event.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I guess that you were there. Did he play in
front of you?
Speaker 5 (20:14):
No, he didn't. They were making the appearance.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
We were doing a charity wall down in Fort Worth, Texas,
the celebrity cutting competition that they do every year.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Always yes, well, the sharing is actually right now it's
raising money now at this point, it was for kids
with cancer. They're trying to build a hospital there.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
It's for worths of people that have to come in
and you don't have to drive all away to Dallas.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
When there's a demographic of people, think you really use
the hospital.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So there.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah, there was a number of actors that come to
compete in a cutting competition from Yellowstone into the other
Show's Lioness nineteen twenty three.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah, it was. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And my point with that was that he does he
plays if it's ten people, if it's in a room,
he has so much fun. It's just like he lights
up like a child even now when he plays guitar,
and you look at that and you go, man, the
inspiration somebody who still loves what they do so much
even though they've done it at the highest level, but
they still Like I've been to his house and as
he has a studio in his house and to watch
(21:16):
him create music. To watch somebody still love something that
much and they've done it for that long, Like, to me,
that is inspiring, and I would think that he has
a creative yourself. It's really cool to see people love
what they do even when they've reached really high levels
doing it.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
It's the sense of belief we have in ourselves.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Right, he can actually be really good at something and
not have that confidence yourself. Everybody else around you can
see it, but it hasn't embedded itself and you for
you to step out and actually take the risks of
exploring exactly what your potential are.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
This I'm talking to myself here.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You're talking to me too, though, don't worry, you're talking
to both of us. I have two final questions for you,
and this is the most cliche question ever, but I
just like talking to you. I feel like you're a
super smart guy. So I'm gonna follow your advice here.
What's a good show now that you either just finished
or you're in the middle of where you're like, Man,
this is amazing. I need to recommend it to everybody.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Well, it'll sound like I'm biased. I love all of
Taylor's shows.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
They're so unique and it's incredibly amazing how it can
create a world all separate from one another's. And I
just finished Landman with Billy Bob Thornton, who I'm a big.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
Fan of as well. That was really worth watching. And
then lion This lion Ass was awesome. Yeah, it's just
your kick ass I.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Really appreciate the time. I am a big fan of
the agency. If you watch that, by the way, it
is a plus elite as well on Hulu. It's Taylor Sheridan,
Oh man, it is It's Cia It yeah, land manag
just starting for us because we don't like to wait
week to week because we're creatures of we like to
have it all at once.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
So but the agency just finished. That would be the
one I would recommend back to you. Not to check recommendations,
but I'm a big fan, So thank you for spending
a half hour with me. This has been awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I hope you weren't totally annoyed by all my questions
about your life in detail. But keep up the great
work and I can't wait to see whatever you're in next.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
But the real pleasure to meet you and chat with
you as well. You're a great little interviewer there, Bobby.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Oh Well, thank you. You'll have a great rest of
the day.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
The Yellowstone Official podcast hosted by Me, Bobby Bones and
brought to you by iHeartMedia Podcasts and MTV Entertainment Studios.
Big shout out to executive producers Jason Reid, Lindsey Hoffman,
Carl katl and Kevin O'Connell. Also our senior manager of
podcast Marketing, Ali Canner Grab for keeping the word out
and of course a big thanks to Will Pearson, president
(23:50):
of iHeartMedia Podcast, for him supporting this show. We've also
got special thanks going out to Whitney Baxter, xavier A Free,
Barbara Pareda, Emily Curry and Joe Flattery.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
You guys make this happen.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
This podcast is produced in association with One on one
Studios over there executive producer Scott Stone and Director of
podcast Development and Production Danielle Waxman. We also got to
give a big nod to Michelle Newman, David Glasser and
David Hutkin for their support.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Thank you guys for tuning in. See you next week.
Episode five of the official Yellowstone Podcast. I am your host,
Bobby Bones. The first four episodes have gotten great feedback,
Thank you so much, a lot of downloads, so thank
you so much for that.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
This has been crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
At how much you guys wanted this, and I think
I've done an adequate job. So the fact that you
guys are listening so much means you just you love Yellowstone,
which is completely understandable. This episode has Chief Thomas Rainwater,
whose real name is Gil Birmingham, major character, and I
just talked to him about how he's able to be
like a bad guy and a good guy. And obviously
(00:41):
he's very cerebral as an actor, so he doesn't only
see it like I do watching where I'm like bad guy,
good guy, bad guy, good guy. But Gil, like the
actual person, has a crazy journey getting into his career
as an actor. He was an engineer, then he kind
of got into acting and there's some bodybuilding in there.
You're gonna hear about all this been and a few
f Taylor Sheridan's movies Hell or High Water, wind River
(01:04):
has had a roll in a bunch of other big
time shows. His character in Yellowstone again, it's so awesome
because he took you on the journey of I like him,
I don't like him. I don't know if I do
or not I trust him, I don't trust him. So
we were pumped to get him on the podcast. You
can follow him on Instagram at Gil Birmingham Here he
is Chief Thomas Rainwater aka real name Gil Birmingham. Hey, Gil,
(01:37):
I'd like to say this that why I'm such a
fan of your work is because through Yellowstone in general,
and I've seen you and other things too, but you
were able to both be a bad guy and a
good guy and that there is some range to that
that I don't even understand. And as an actor, whenever
(01:57):
you're a we think you're a bad guy, right, were like,
Oh the Dutons is it? Whenever you're bad? Are you
playing that at all? Different facial expressions? What's the difference
in playing a bad guy and a good guy even
though it's the same person.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
I always find it interesting that people want to categorize
the bad guy's bay and the antithesis of who the
the anti hero for example, and Yellowstone is my approach
character development is always to comfort the heart and from
the intention of the agenda that character has, and when
people come up and tell me you make such a
bad such a great bad guy, always reminded him that
(02:32):
I haven't killed anybody.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
On the show. Who's really the bad guy here. It's
the structure of the storyline.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
But I don't think any actor really to fully accept
the character. And you probably know this to some degree,
and you're all experienced that as you're playing the character,
you can't judge them for whatever it is that they are.
They think they're right, they think they're justified for what
they do. But my development of that character was always
for the interest of my people who save the land,
and this was just an obstacle Dunton family and which
(03:01):
I was going to approach that.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
My theory about Chief was if you did his story
from his perspective, he would have been the good guy,
much like in The Avengers, you know, whenever you got
the guy with the rings and he's wasn't it dan O's.
I think if you shot Danos a story, he'd been
a good guy because he's trying to save the earth.
I think had you shot Chief Rainwater from his perspective,
he would have been the good guy. And the Dunn's
(03:24):
would have been the bad guys. Again, like you said,
it's all perspective. There was that transition during the show
where we start to warm up because again it's shot
from the Duntons, so we're like, oh, this guy could
be against the Duntons, so we're against him. But then
you became like this wonderfully warm guy without really changing.
I loved your character when they told you what you
were going to do for the show. How did they
(03:45):
approach you with the character?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Oh, you're Taylor, the brilliant writer of the show. Creator.
He approached me with a yellowstone back in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I had no concept of what in storyline was, but
we were filming Hell or High Water and he told me,
I've got this character for this series that I've developed
that I cast you as. So I didn't know the
nature of the depth of the character or what it
is that he had in mind. But after Hell or
High Water I did wedd River. I was all on
(04:14):
board or all things Taylor Sheridan.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Whenever you are reading a script and you realize something
big is happening with your character, something that is paramount
to the storyline, were you ever shocked while going through
the Yellowstone Script through all the seasons.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I don't know that.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I was maybe not so much an op and Thomas
Rainwaters storyline outside of the I think it was season
three or four where we had angela blue thunder trying
to undermine his chairmanship. I wasn't expecting that. That's what
great television is is drama. I think a lot of
the surprises really were in reference to the Duttons, because
(04:53):
there was so much, so much more drama lyric, you know,
in terms of people that were trying to take the
land over and the.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Transition as you were.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, reference was really the understanding that Thomas Rainwater
had more in collin with John Dutton than neither one
of them maybe understood. And I think it was so
much it was as much summed up in a line
where we want the same things for different.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Reasons, and that was the preservation of the land.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I think that was the highest integrity of character for
both of those characters.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Can you explain to me, because you're a wildly intelligent guy,
obviously to play the character that you play with the
nuance that you play it, but then a petrochemical engineer,
can you tell me what a petrochemical engineer.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
That was back in the eighties, and I got directed
to a format that my parents thought was going to
be something I could do make a decent living, and
it was an engineering.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And I just had an opportunity at the time.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
And when you're young, you're just looking for something to
support yourself, and that seemed like a good one at
the time. It really didn't speak to me because I
only did it for about five years. Most of my
life has been windows or doors that were opened and
I walked through them and we'll see what happens here.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It seems like you've had a wonderfully amazing Swiss Army
Knife of a life and career.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You're so good at a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I was also reading about you, like bodybuilding, being just
extremely ripped up. So not only smart, good looking guy,
also crazy muscles. So what was the bodybuilding phase.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Of your life?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
I think I've just I'm had somewhat of a suppressed
kind of upbringing.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
It was very isolated.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I had a very religious mother and a military father,
and there was a lot of containment and it just
wasn't my spirit. I was more of an artist or
a creative I picked up the guitar at ten and
that's really what I thought I wanted to do with
my life, was to be a musician. If I used
to just train their goals gym the Meca Bodybuilding on
it in the Vins, California, and I had saved up
(06:56):
a little bit of money and I wanted to explore
something different. It just fast me that you could take
the human form and cheap it like a Greek statue.
So it seemed like a healthy lifestyle for one. And
I was there with all these examples of people that
were doing that, and I was intrigued by what you
could do with the body. And it actually was the
(07:16):
injury into my acting profession because I got scouted in
the gym, did a couple of works on a music video.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
I had a great time. My girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Was an aspiring actress and she suggested I started taking
some classes and that's where it started.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
To do something in art. As I've learned through the years,
it's ebbs and flows, really unsteady, also wildly rewarding. And
for me, I have a massive insecurity complex. I always
think I'm not good enough to leave a job like
an engineer to go into the world of the arts.
The income is not steady. Was that ever a concern
(07:55):
for you because there wasn't stability?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
We all, anybody in the arts has a level of insecurity,
of feeling that you're not enough. I guess that's one
of the great challenges of propelling yourself to do something
that you're definitely scared initially, but the excitement of the
potential is more compelling. I guess I saved up my
money from the engineering and I knew I had some
(08:21):
leeway there to be able to explore this other thing,
and then it led to other work more along the
lines of entertainment and understanding. I guess accepting that notion,
how committed are you to this that you're willing to
make all the sacrifices for who knows how long?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
It was a long time.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Before I was able to support myself in my profession
now a good ten years, twelve years, and.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Learned to live very sparsely. I've always lived like I'm
in a college dorm, so I didn't have big overhead expenses.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
What is your favorite book?
Speaker 5 (08:55):
I would say The Power of Now.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
I reard again recently for like second time it.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Oh yeah, that really was a pivotal conscious surn around
for me, and it's still I've gone through it a
couple of times. Just the reminder of many of those
things that Cartold talked about being present, and there's really
nothing else that exists besides that.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's the only thing that exists, is right the second
I had such a struggle with that until I read
it the.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
First time, and I had a good experience with it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
But then when I read it the second time, it's
almost like watching a great movie with a ton of
nuance in it. In the second time, you catch a
lot of the things. And when I read it the
second time, that was exactly what I was going to say,
was the only thing we actually have is right now.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Yeah, it was a real transitional awareness for me that
still I try to remind myself every day.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
What from your childhood did you bring into the character?
If anything?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Oddly enough, I had shared my life with Taylor to
some extent, and then I read the script and the
characters for purposes of protection. Mccarris didn't really and let
us know we were even native, you know, until I was
like fourteen. And that's exactly the way Thomas Rainwater was
presented that he didn't realize he was native until he
(10:31):
was eighteen. He'saw the adoption papers. That was amazing parallel
for me, this is my life.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
You know. Taylor's so great at that.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
He's such an observing person and he really knows how
to integrate either personal.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
History, his own experiences, the nature of.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
The way he observes the world and the climate that
we're in socially, politically, and environmentally.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
I thought that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It seems to me that Taylor's very hands on in
a very positive way, just from the other folks from
either this podcast or in other areas that I know
that have worked with Taylor. Would you say that is accurate?
And what is his approach like person to person? Is
it different for every single person.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I always see knownan since twenty sixteen, and they've had
me out the ranch there in their home several times.
I don't really see him interacting any differently. He might
have more of a he did debate if he's talking
to a production company or other producers. He's a very
strong willed individual and very straightforward shooting. I wish I
(11:34):
could talk the way because at least in the way
that he puts it doubt on paper. I have an
appreciation of understanding in my own mind the nature of
what it takes to be where he is, and knowing
a bit of a history about where he came from.
He's really one of those racts of riches story, you know,
being an action for twenty years himself, and it's such
(11:54):
an inspiration to really see somebody that steps out and says,
I'm going to try something. Maybe that's what I related
to from my engineering to my body bilding into my
acting and just taking the risks and then finding out
all the amazing kind of potential and talent you might
with this latent there for for the longest time and
now you're actualizing it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
How far in advance would you guys get scripts up
into this last season, which we didn't get any scripts.
We would get them probably a month before we started shooting.
The last season was.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Really odd because they were all redacted scripts.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
They were really keeping it undercover, so you would get
the scenes you were in, but you wouldn't get the
storyline any of the other characters.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
That was fortunate for me because Thomas Randwater didn't really have.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
That in the interactions with any of the other characters,
but John Dutt. That was really a new experience for us,
for a group of people to spend seven years together
for the first time, We're not going to know what
everybody else is doing.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
At what point in the show did you start to
get recognized as your character?
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Oh? What's interesting because it occurred in different regions.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Not so much in southern California, but I've traveled to Australia,
New Zealand, Canada, and I'll have these fan bases that
are approach me in these areas that I wouldn't think
I don't even know what the go stone is globally,
but I wouldn't think of them as being particularly familiar
with the show. But oftentimes it's areas that are either
(13:23):
as the industry in cattle, ranching, oil. Those are the
big demographics for the show. Oddly enough, it seems to
be growing even though the show is completed itself. I
don't know if people are catching up to it now,
but yeah, it's been interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Now that the show is over and it's time for
you to go and find your next job, there have
been some pretty cool opportunities to come across that.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Do you read through a bunch do you audition?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
How does that work now now that you're a known
entity and you're really good?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So is that helping now?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
It's a real roller coaster. I thank for anybody in
the industry. You can feel like you're really hot. You
can be at a big show and I reflect sometimes and
what they call the Oscar curse. You would think your
career is just them to take off right, and time
after time you'll hear of ours that things were dead
for like a couple of years. For me personally, I
(14:16):
know the industry is changing. I know there's a big
pullback in general across the board. There's all these AI concerns.
Production companies are merging and the financials are being pulled back,
so not as many productions are going to be done.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
I just have to trust, have patients, and trust that
something will pop up. They really are practiced.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Me.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Nothing in particular that I've read at this point has
really made me feel like, yeah, I really want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Are you good at reading a script and knowing if
something is great and grabs you?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
No remember reading Hail or High Water and I was going, oh, yeah,
this is a fairly good script. Jeff working with Jeff Bridges.
Now I'll being Crispine been thought okay, I don't know
where this movie's going to go, and never sitting there
at the Oscars.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
So you played Ben in Heller high Water? What was
that experience?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like, justai, I have a hundred questions, so I just
want to ask a very vague one, giving me like
a an you know, a memory from Hell or high
Water that I think was cool.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
I think, well, there's several. One that sticks out to
me is that Jeff and I had about two weeks.
I mean we shot that show in like five weeks.
There was a really small window and when I learned
about all the machinations behind the scenes, it just amazes
me that it got made. Originally, it got turned down
from a bunch of people, and then Appierceder came on
(15:43):
and said, the script right now is it's got a
stake to it right now, stick it off the market
and then we'll reintroduce it. And we had a producer
that stepped in and financed it. But to develop a
relationship that we had like good friends, been working together
for twenty years, and let it develop that in a
couple of weeks. It was the music because Jeff is
(16:04):
a musician. I'm a musician, and it was when we
would jam together, there was really a connection which was
just perfect and just our improv stuff.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
There was a bit of improv between us. It still tickles, right.
I just watched it.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I guess it just got put on Showtime or HBO
or something, and I'll just get drawn into it, not
just for the experience of the memory, but just how
really great a script that was, and how great everybody
in it was.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Let's talk music for a second, Mount rushmore a favorite artist.
Give me your four favorite It's going to impossible, because
somebody that knows music, loves music, and plays music. It's
an impossible question, and I'm putting it on you here
for your four favorite artists of all time.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Oh, I think maybe number one have to be these
raged idiots.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
No, you don't want a power washer to that faces
out of there, out of there, Cancel, cancel, cancel ansel Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
I listen. I was a guitar player. You know, it's
Jimmy Hendrix and affected me.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I was so focused on and I have some summar
regret to that because I wasn't the ponder of lyrics
and the power of the language was Jimmy Henry, x Ce,
Ray Vaughn, Eric Clapton, Joe Softrianna here you know, Eric Johnson,
all the guitar heroes, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, such a.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Geek of rock, classic rock guitar.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
There is a Stevie Ray Vaughan clips one of my
favorite ever where he's playing Austin City Limits and his
guitar string breaks and he's able to change a string
while he's still playing this solo. That to me is
why I love Steve or a vaugh because he was
he was so natural with his instrument. It was like
a body part that he can again, he can change
a string as he's playing.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Me, if I'm changing a string, I need ten minutes.
I need to retune. I gotta get my tune to
put it on my knee. I got the whole thing there.
But yeah, and with Jimmy Hendrix, I'm left handed.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I play left handed, but Jimmy Hendrix kind of screwed
me up because he played upside down left handed, so
I didn't. He played like in the most difficult left
handed way where I actually bought a left handed guitar
and switched it around. But yeah, no, I am I
am a music nerd to where when you mentioned all
those guys like that excites me a whole lot.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
How often you play now?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Not nearly enough anymore. You probably know this. When you're
playing in a band and you're digging out, that's when
you play the most. That's when you're on top of
your chops and everything.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I always feel bad thinking about having a talent that
I'm exercising more regularly. So I haven't really been playing
outside of certainly not out of bands. Maybe on set
it was jamming, not like I really should or one two.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
That's super cool that you're so musical. Was there a
dream of being in a band. Were you ever in
a band as a kid? I know you said he played,
but would you ever get together with friends and like
think you'd make it?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Per a second?
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Oh yeah, that was my dream.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I still when people talked about having a purpose in
life or what was their dream, it was the moment
I picked up at guitar at ten years old.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I said this is it. In my naivete, I said
I'm going to be a rock star.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So it's funny that I got detoured off into another direction.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
I lived vicariously through these musicians.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
I met Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban the other night
of the charity function were doing, and I chatted with Keith.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I was just sharing that with and I said, you
played with such joy and freedom. It's everything that I
imagine what music means when I play it. And he
said the critical thing that he always remembers is to
play the playfulness of playing like any other thing. Like
you'll do something if it's forge and music as a kid,
(19:53):
and you did it because you loved it. Until if
it became a profession, then there's all these other things
and attachments, lots of abilities and distract you from it.
That really resonated for me.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Keith Urban is actually a really good friend of mine.
And yeah, to watch him play if it's for ten
people or for ten thousand, and did he play at
the event.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I guess that you were there. Did he play in
front of you?
Speaker 5 (20:14):
No, he didn't. They were making the appearance.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
We were doing a charity wall down in Fort Worth, Texas,
the celebrity cutting competition that they do every year.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Always yes, well, the sharing is actually right now it's
raising money now at this point, it was for kids
with cancer. They're trying to build a hospital there.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
It's for worths of people that have to come in
and you don't have to drive all away to Dallas.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
When there's a demographic of people, think you really use
the hospital.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So there.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah, there was a number of actors that come to
compete in a cutting competition from Yellowstone into the other
Show's Lioness nineteen twenty three.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah, it was. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And my point with that was that he does he
plays if it's ten people, if it's in a room,
he has so much fun. It's just like he lights
up like a child even now when he plays guitar,
and you look at that and you go, man, the
inspiration somebody who still loves what they do so much
even though they've done it at the highest level, but
they still Like I've been to his house and as
he has a studio in his house and to watch
(21:16):
him create music. To watch somebody still love something that
much and they've done it for that long, Like, to me,
that is inspiring, and I would think that he has
a creative yourself. It's really cool to see people love
what they do even when they've reached really high levels
doing it.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
It's the sense of belief we have in ourselves.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Right, he can actually be really good at something and
not have that confidence yourself. Everybody else around you can
see it, but it hasn't embedded itself and you for
you to step out and actually take the risks of
exploring exactly what your potential are.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
This I'm talking to myself here.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You're talking to me too, though, don't worry, you're talking
to both of us. I have two final questions for you,
and this is the most cliche question ever, but I
just like talking to you. I feel like you're a
super smart guy. So I'm gonna follow your advice here.
What's a good show now that you either just finished
or you're in the middle of where you're like, Man,
this is amazing. I need to recommend it to everybody.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Well, it'll sound like I'm biased. I love all of
Taylor's shows.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
They're so unique and it's incredibly amazing how it can
create a world all separate from one another's. And I
just finished Landman with Billy Bob Thornton, who I'm a big.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
Fan of as well. That was really worth watching. And
then lion This lion Ass was awesome. Yeah, it's just
your kick ass I.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Really appreciate the time. I am a big fan of
the agency. If you watch that, by the way, it
is a plus elite as well on Hulu. It's Taylor Sheridan,
Oh man, it is It's Cia It yeah, land manag
just starting for us because we don't like to wait
week to week because we're creatures of we like to
have it all at once.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
So but the agency just finished. That would be the
one I would recommend back to you. Not to check recommendations,
but I'm a big fan, So thank you for spending
a half hour with me. This has been awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I hope you weren't totally annoyed by all my questions
about your life in detail. But keep up the great
work and I can't wait to see whatever you're in next.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
But the real pleasure to meet you and chat with
you as well. You're a great little interviewer there, Bobby.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Oh Well, thank you. You'll have a great rest of
the day.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
The Yellowstone Official podcast hosted by Me, Bobby Bones and
brought to you by iHeartMedia Podcasts and MTV Entertainment Studios.
Big shout out to executive producers Jason Reid, Lindsey Hoffman,
Carl katl and Kevin O'Connell. Also our senior manager of
podcast Marketing, Ali Canner Grab for keeping the word out
and of course a big thanks to Will Pearson, president
(23:50):
of iHeartMedia Podcast, for him supporting this show. We've also
got special thanks going out to Whitney Baxter, xavier A Free,
Barbara Pareda, Emily Curry and Joe Flattery.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
You guys make this happen.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
This podcast is produced in association with One on one
Studios over there executive producer Scott Stone and Director of
podcast Development and Production Danielle Waxman. We also got to
give a big nod to Michelle Newman, David Glasser and
David Hutkin for their support.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Thank you guys for tuning in. See you next week.
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