April 6, 2022 • 28 mins
Welcoming Tyler Measom and Liz Iacuzzi to The Pod Club! In this week’s episode, leader - oops we mean host - Jo Piazza gabs about her obsession and guilty pleasure: cults. With fascinating stories and the eerie suspicion that we are all one charismatic date away from joining one, cults have become a hugely popular podcast topic. Yet Tyler and Liz approach things a little differently on their show, Was I In A Cult? As former cult members themselves, they focus on the subtle ways cults draw you in and tell the soul-stirring stories of people who were able to escape. Whether it's Peloton, Mormonism, or even the Pod Club, this episode will have you thinking: Was I In A Cult?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In every situation, there are individuals who can take advantage
of you, and it's up to us to be aware
of them and be cautious of them. And I'd like
to think that our show allows people to recognize and
see areas in which they may be able to be
(00:20):
taken advantage of. And I think it's important for us
to look out for that in any way, in any area,
in any facet of our life. Amen. Amen, Now join
my cult. It's a podcast podcast post. Welcome back to
the pod Club. I'm your leader, I mean your host,
(00:43):
Joe Piazza. No, I'm not at all close to being
a cult leader. In fact, I don't think anyone would
follow me. Ever. It's sad, but I am obsessed with cults,
obsessed and this You are a regular listener, you know
that this is the second time that talking about cults
on the Pod Club because frankly, they just make such
(01:04):
good stories and like I said, I am obsessed with them.
From the Manson Family to the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate.
I can't get enough of cult content, and either can you.
Because cult podcasts are having a moment right now, and
today I want to introduce you to one of the
best shows that I've listened to recently about cults was
(01:24):
I In a Cult. It's hosted by filmmaker Tyler Mesom
and comedian liz Aya Kuzi, and in each episode they
take you through the story of one guest who was
in but then got out of a cult. I think
the reason Liz and Tyler are so good at this
is because both of them have their own experiences with cults,
which makes them really, really the perfect hosts for a
(01:46):
show about cults. I got to talk to them about
the tricky territory of talking to people who have gone
through such a traumatic experience of being an occult, why
they think that so many people are so fascinated by cults,
and of course some of the other podcast they're listening
to these days. Guys, I'm so excited to have you
(02:07):
on today because I'm obsessed with cults. Cults are like
my reality television. I think about cults all the time.
I wonder if I'm in a cult all the time.
I realized the other day that my most paras social
relationships are with my peloton instructors, and I was convinced,
like maybe maybe I'm a little too deep maybe I'm
in Maybe I'm I'm in a kind of like a
(02:28):
strange peloton cult. But I think that's safe. I think
it's okay. So I need to know everything. Why why
did the two of you decide to make a podcast
about cults? First of all, cut to the chase. I
was in a cult. I was in a acting class
cult here in Los Angeles, California, which which makes me
(02:49):
think that I could end up being in a peloton cult.
You could you were an acting class, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
just depends on the leader. We're looking at you, Cody. Uh, oh,
it was. It was a class. I just moved here.
I was doing comedy in Chicago for a few years
and commercials and was like, I want to try real acting.
(03:10):
And I was in a really toxic relationship at the
time with a guy who was going to this woman
who was UM had how did he phrase it at
the time, some sort of like self help, oh, life coach,
life coach, and she taught these life coaching classes and
he was going with his UM sponsor because he was sober,
(03:31):
something I also didn't know much about at the time.
I was guys, I was twenty three or something or four,
like what do you know about anything when you're that
yet nothing, I'm like, oh, you don't drink cool. Oh
I didn't know that there was like a whole bunch
of other stuff that could come with that. Uh so yeah.
So I was in this relationship and he was going
to this woman with his sponsor and he would come
(03:52):
home and just be like obsessedly talking about her, like,
oh my god, she's incredible, and like I'm already learning
all these tools and my life is already changing. And
you know, she's also an acting teacher, and I met
some of the actors and they're like, like amazing people
and really talented. You should check it out. And so
(04:13):
I was like, well, you know, I was looking for
an intense sort of acting coach at the time, who
was going to really call me on my ship. Well
I got what I asked for. She I went to
this class and the people were fantastic, UM and then
there was the love bombing, but look, I didn't know
what that was. I just thought like, oh, this woman
(04:33):
has a lot of people working for her UM. And
they sort of approached me after and gave me some
of the typical cult stuff like get in today at
fift off. You know, there was a lot of that
going on. The personal anecdotes of their survival stories came
in and and I started taking this acting class and
(04:55):
it turned into this self help cult. So you guys,
I swear folka. We actually have two episodes on the
show already showcasing my cult, and we're going to end
season one finally with Tyler in my story, so you
will hear my story. I want to play a little
bit for our audience about that cult. What was it called? Well,
(05:16):
to protect our guests, they opted to not share her
name sadly, but it's um Holly Weird. The episodes called
Holly Weird and Holly Weirder and Josh. While he was
learning new tools and in fact, he started booking acting kicks,
and then one day a big opportunity comes up last minute,
(05:38):
that was very common in Hollywood, So he calls his
teacher to discuss the audition. I was like, yeah, I'm
standing outside of Warner Brothers. She's like, you're not ready.
You're not ready. You need more classes, you need more time. Here.
He has a huge opportunity, and instead of supporting him
like a true guide or teacher would, she broke him down,
(06:01):
and it was amazing to see her sabotage those opportunities
for all of her students. She was afraid that would
cause that person to leave, to no longer be there
in her class, so she would sabotage them all the time.
There's no plan for you to graduate. You're not being
taught anything, because to learn something is that eventually, I
have this skill, and I can go do this skill
(06:22):
on my own. My third grade teacher is nowhere near me,
but I'm writing, I'm doing addition, her goal was to
create an environment where you needed her in order to
succeed thereby taking more classes and paying more money. But
she always wanted more. She was slightly manic and never content.
(06:43):
She had been this acting teacher in life coach for
years and was paying the bills doing it. But then
one day she went on a yoga retreat. All right, So, Liz, Liz,
you were in a cult, and then Tyler were you
were awesome. I was raised as a Mormon, you know,
so I was in what some wouldn't consider as it called,
(07:03):
a very mainstream religion. I have only in the last
couple of years doing more research on the group itself.
Have I recognized that, Yeah, it's got very much cultic tendencies.
So yeah, both Liz and I were in a very
different but very high controlling in many aspects cults cultic environments.
And what's funny is with Tyler's is when we first started,
(07:25):
I didn't know much about Mormonism, mainstream or otherwise. And
we've had some extreme Mormon polygamus groups on our couple
on our on our show, and we've gotten so many
people writing in who are mainstream Mormons talking about it
as their cult, and it's been just eye opening for
even us as the creators of the show, for people
(07:47):
to actually share their own experience of mainstream Mormonism as
a cult. I just fish listening to the first episode
of your show, which is about a splinter sect of Mormonism,
which is absolute, but this this sect is absolutely a cult,
and you guys interview a woman named Joanne. Joanne's story
is incredible and frightening, but she's also really funny. Like I,
(08:14):
I laughed so hard while listening to that episode, And
I think that's what you guys do so well with
was I in a cult? Because you no one joins
a cult saying I want to be in a cult
and some of it is terrible, but there's also a
flip side of it, and you're telling the stories and
(08:34):
I'm going to use your words here of brave individuals
who clawed themselves out of these cults but then also
rebuilt their lives. Yeah, And and our our show is
documentary style, and it features the story of one, for
the most part, one person who was in and left
a cult. And they tell great stories, and we usually
were very good at getting good storytellers, and of course
(08:55):
we edit it, but but a lot of more sad
and heartbreaking and and and they live these horrible existences
for a while, and all of them up to this point,
I've had wonderful experiences and leaving the cult and being
sort of reborn. But what Liz and I do is
give a little bit of levity in between it and
have some fun and um never making fun of the guest, obviously,
(09:17):
but always just have a little bit of fun with
it because our guests are in a place now where
they can heal. It does help, and it's a different
kind of format, but it does help with so much
heartbreak and sadness that comes with having been in a
horrible existence of a cult. Yeah, no, it absolutely comes
through because you guys are very sensitive to your subjects
(09:39):
and very very empathetic. But at the same time, I
don't start listening to this show and feel like, oh
my gosh, this is going to be a huge downer,
it's going to make me sad and depressed. I feel
like I learned something in every episode. I laugh a
little bit, and but I also feel I also feel
all of the feelings which I really wanted a podcast.
(10:02):
So you're doing You're doing a great job with it. Thanks,
We love what We appreciate that because that is the
goal of this show is to sort of break the
stereotypes that have been surrounding cults and to be frank
cult followers. Right, there's the Lemmings and they're lost and
they're vulnerable, and we're just breaking down all those stereotypes.
(10:23):
We're just showing you this is your mom, this is
your aunt, this is your brother, this is you, this
is anyone you know or you know. How people are
susceptible to being manipulated into cults is widely misunderstood. Yeah,
I mean, as you said it, no one joins a cult,
and basically what we we see when people join the
cults is that they they're usually vulnerable people and they're
(10:47):
actually a type of personalities who want to do something better.
They want to go to heaven, they want to be
a better actress, they want to know people, they want
to be a better spin, they want to be better
on their palton I do I do. They usually get
taken advantage of by a narcissist who you know, abuses
(11:10):
that vulnerability for his or own his or her own good.
And we also really try to focus on the how,
right because a lot of the things that you watch
um in on TV or anything focusing on cults, you're
already you're already there with the awareness I'm watching someone
in a cult. Right. So with this show, we're trying
to take you on the journey with our guests. Here's
(11:34):
their life before, here's who they are, right, Oh wow,
that's my best friend, and then this they go to
this presentation or they go to a class, and it's
it doesn't happen overnight, you know, it's a slow burn.
And the way you get slowly indoctrinated into these environments
is really important to understand for your own personal safety
(11:56):
and for the world to understand how cults work, and
so we really that's the goal of this show is
to take you on the whole experience before in and out.
Do you have a favorite episode? So oh man, I
mean we've done eighteen episodes. We're launching another one this
week and another one next week. Um, Lauren, she's the
(12:17):
Black Keebrew Israelite. She What I love about her story
and bravery is she's twenty three. I'm want to say
she um, you know, she's she's our youngest survivor to date,
I believe. And she kind of was like reached out going.
I want I think I was in a cult, and
I think this is a cult, and I'm scared as hell,
(12:40):
but I want to tell my story and just it was.
It was incredible, and she was incredible, and her story
is incredible. And the feedback we've gotten from her particular
episode and and that cult in general, because that cult,
if you look up Black Keebrew Israelites, it's not labeled
as a cult. It's a very um it's still spoken
(13:03):
about is a extreme religion. So that one to me
was she's very brave. You know that community, A lot
of people have not spoken up about who have gotten out,
so I feel like she that one touched my heart.
It's a good story. The weird part about it is
(13:27):
they believe it's slavery just happened because of a curse
from God. They don't blame white people for slavery because
they were like it was our fault. This belief essentially
comes from a number of Bible scriptures, but one of
which is Deuteronomy, which states, but it shall come to
pass if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of
the Lord, thy God, to observe to do all his
(13:49):
commandments and his statutes, which I command THEE this day,
that all these curses shall come upon THEE and overtake thee.
They leave that everything slavery, segregation, picspitality, anything, they believe
it's all a curse from God. They also believe that
the remaining eleven tribes are other minorities, like Mexican people,
(14:13):
patients are in there. They even like Jamaicans, Like there's
all types of different races, but African Americans are number one.
Keep in mind, it's not just black people generally who
are chosen, it's specifically African Americans. So if you're black
but you're not American. You're just not that special. Sorry,
Black Canadians, for some reason, I just feel like they're
(14:34):
the most slighted. Yeah, pretty much. But as Canadians are
still going to apologize for and drinking under the table
while doing Oh come on, Canada, we love you. And
look all of them all everybody who comes on our
show blows me away, to be honest with you, everybody
who sits down and is vulnerably sharing, you know. And
(14:58):
what's great is that I think they appreciate it because
they're getting a platform that is different than the normal
cult platform. We're not going oh, look at you, weird
person in a cult, right, We're saying, look, tell your story,
you know, share with us, and we're going to tell
your story through your perspective, not through the perspective of
(15:21):
the cult or the cult leader. And I think that's
rare because I think that there are a lot of
shows about cults out there that are just they're so
voyeuristic and they're like, oh my god and sensationalized, total
oh my god, look at these freaks, look at the
look at these weirdos. You know, they're amazing stories these
people tell, and um, good stories happen to those who
(15:43):
can tell them, and we've been lucky to get people
who really are open and brave and vulnerable and willing
to tell remarkable stories. And they're there. They've lived enough
of it that they can now look back and see
what an existence they lived, and they have kind of
left it in the back back seat and they no
longer deal with it every day. Although, you know, leaving
(16:05):
a cult is one thing, leaving a cult in your
mind is another thing. And they show that they have
work to do, and most of them really work hard
at you know, leaving that cultic behind, that cult experience
behind you. Guys are all cults all the time? Over
(16:46):
it was Iron Cult. What are you listening to when
you don't want to talk about cults? What other podcasts
are in your ear? Wow? I am partial to documentary
style podcast. I'm a documentary filmmaker, so I I love
the storytelling. I love to see a story being built.
I love to see the production and the creative process
(17:08):
behind it. Um. So I just finished Operator, which I
thought was okay. Um, you know I love Invisible. That
is a that is just a go to for me.
It is my breakfast and dinner and of course you
know this American life is just a solid bedrock keeps
me happy. Um, I do a lot of like I
(17:30):
like a lot of comedian comedy podcast Um, like SmartLess
I enjoy. I like Sarah Silverman's podcast. Um, don't ask
Tignats podcast. So Tignataros podcast is like don't ask tig
She doesn't have the answers, but she's still going to
(17:51):
give you her advice essentially, And she's really funny and
and she talks about things that she's not an expert on, right,
Like she doesn't know why, Um, you're depressed, Tyler, but
she's going to give her best answer for it. Oh, Tyler, Tyler,
are you depressed? Because I'll bet there's a cult that
(18:11):
could fix that. You know, I signed me up? Who
do I have to give money to? Another one I'm
listening to is on Purpose with Jay Shetty. No wait wait, no,
I don't I don't know any on purpose. He's um,
he's like an old not an old. He's he was
(18:32):
a monk. I want to say, yeah, he was a
monk and a podcast. Yeah, and now he's no longer
a monk, but now he like he interviewed Will Smith.
That's the first episode I was pased on. It's really
fascinating and he's not a cult leader. He's not a
(18:54):
cult I remember the first time I probably met you
is a Willow's birthday a few years back, and everyone
was wearing it was Willow Ween, so everyone's dressed in
costumes and stuff, so I didn't even know it was you.
And then you had you had like the Zoro kind
of mask over your eyes, and so it was a
(19:15):
big person. I was like, oh, maybe that's will maybe
that's not. I didn't know, and then you lifted your
mask off. And the thing I recognized you about from
the moment I met you was just your ability. You
have this unique ability to just be really present and
kind and and deeply there with everyone you meet. And
(19:35):
I think that for you, know, having having met you
in public arenas, whether it's the Bad Boys Premier, and
then in our personal meetings, as you were mentioning, you're
just even better and I think that that's so hard
to be when you're so but but I remember that,
and there was the hospitality men RADI felt with you
(19:55):
like that, that ability to care for each person walking
in the family aspect, making us feel welcomed in a
part of it that I just think that that in
today's world, that human aspect is what we're all missing.
Although if you guys heard Dakota Ring, do you guys
ever listen to Dakoda Ring. It's basically a woman who
(20:20):
cracks cultural mysteries and they're fantastic and they're quirky and
they're interesting, and I think the host is dynamic and
wonderful and they take on really odd things and odd
mysteries UM in our culture, like the The Tasteless Jokes book,
the book in the eighties that was Taste truly tasteless Jokes,
(20:42):
or the worst video game in history, or vampires. I mean,
really crazy cool stuff. But it's done with a very light,
fun texture. It's a great under definitely under heralded podcast.
Do you have a favorite episode of that one that
reachul listen to? Um? You know, there's one that they
do that I like because as a filmmaker and a
(21:02):
film boff, they they explore the Tutsie shot. If you
know what the Tutsie shot is, it's basically a very
crowded New York City street where one person I eat
Tutsie from the film Tutsie is kind of lost in
the site. Yeah, And it explores and examines the history
of that shot and why that shot is important, and
all of the films that it was in and where
(21:24):
it came about, and it's just this really odd little
They took a little moment in cinema history and they
made it into a forty five minute episode, and I
thought it was just so much fun. There's a shot
you've probably seen in a lot of movies. It's of
(21:46):
the film's protagonist, but it takes a second to spot
her because she's smack in the middle of a crowd.
It's a dense rush hour crowd, everybody headed somewhere, and
she's headed somewhere too. There's usually a rousing song playing
on the soundtrack, and the camera keeps her in focus
and she walks down the street even as everyone around
(22:08):
her is a little fuzzy. She's one of many, but
she has our attention. Do you have a favorite burden?
I think it's amazing to me that I haven't been
in a cult yet, because I feel like I'm the
kind of person that is very susceptible. Well, you're a
dream are you a dreamer? Yeah? Yeah, exactly like I.
(22:32):
I want to dream big. I want to improve myself.
I like I want to I also want to believe
in people. So I'm really just waiting for the right
cult leader to come along. We can send if you're
here her way. Okay, Well, I have a question for you, Joe,
Why are you so obsessed with cults? Because I think
a lot of people say that, and I'm always curious
(22:53):
as to like what that personal connection is or if
it's just is there something I think create Well, I really,
I really think that I am so into stories about
cults because they're always such fascinating stories, right because of
the storytelling aspect of it. It's never just about the cult.
(23:14):
It's about what happened to you before you joined the cult,
how you got to this CULTI place, And then I'm
also I love stories about really charismatic leaders that are
able to convince people to follow them, and then the
implications that that has throughout society. I so fun fact
(23:35):
about me. I have a master's in religious studies from
from Ny and I think and I really kind of
took it for fun. I wrote a book about nuns
in another life, but I think a lot about what
is the difference between a religion that is quote acceptable
(23:56):
and a cult, and it's really just mass acceptance around
the world because if you think of every major religion,
I know I'm gonna insult some people here. Everything has
culti aspects about it. Everything has something weird about it
or that someone else would think is weird. So I
think I'm fascinated by cults because I often think about
(24:18):
that fine line between what is culturally acceptable and what
people in the mainstream consider right, and that is that
is a question that may not have a defined answer,
because one person is called is another person's church. And
we're seeing cults that aren't churches nowadays, that aren't based
around religion, and frankly, we're seeing more cults now than
(24:41):
we've ever seen in America especially, so it's really difficult
in some ways to define that. I think that the
word cult can be used too often, um and flippantly,
but at the same time, I think it can be
used it's used sparingly. I think more people can look
at like behaviors. In every situation. There are individuals who
(25:04):
can take advantage of you, and it's up to us
to be aware of them and be cautious of them.
And I'd like to think that our show allows people
to recognize and see areas in which they may be
able to be taken advantage of by other individuals, and
(25:25):
I think it's important for us to look out for
that in any way, in any area, in any facet
of our life. Amen, now join my cults. I see
you just convinced me. I think that's what's so tricky though.
To Joe, it's like the difference between a class and
(25:47):
a cult really comes down to the to the leader. Right.
You can take a workout class and it can just
be a workout class. You can do a workout class
and it can turn into a cult. It just depends
on the narcissist behind, you know, the dog, the doctrine.
So that's what's hopefully our show is showcasing and helping
(26:10):
people to understand what constitutes are cult. Great, um, guys,
this is awesome. I love the podcast. It's really there's
so many crappy podcasts out there, and yours is very very,
very well done and interesting. So I will I will
thank you for having genuinely listen. I will listen to
more episodes. And that's not always true, right now, I
(26:32):
get it, I get it. There's a lot out there. Well,
we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for for
having us. Hong. Okay, that's it. That's all we've got
for the pod Club today. And if you're just as
in the cults as Liz Tyler and I, then you
you have no choice. You must go listen to their
show was I In a Cult? That was my cult voice,
(26:52):
by the way, but really their show Was I In
a Cult? Is very good and and so well done
and not sensationalistic, not tabloid e and spammy, it's just
it's just good documentary podcasting. If you want podcasts about
literally anything else, Let's recap their recommendations. We talked about
don't ask Tig and yes, I want Tig Nataro on
(27:16):
this show. Real freaking bad on Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Would also love some Jay and Dakota ring. I hope
you enjoy. I hope you stay safe. I hope you
stay away from those charismatic cult leaders. And I can't
wait to talk to you next week. The pod Club
is hosted by me Joe Pianza. Our executive producers are
(27:38):
Me Again and Emily Marinoff. Our producers are Mary Do
and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is Lauren Philip. Our
theme and additional music was composed by Aaron Kaufman. Aaron
Kaufman is also our consulting producer and special thanks to
Nikki Tour. It was just a wonderful human being where
I like to think at the end of episodes at
(28:04):
the e
In every situation, there are individuals who can take advantage
of you, and it's up to us to be aware
of them and be cautious of them. And I'd like
to think that our show allows people to recognize and
see areas in which they may be able to be
(00:20):
taken advantage of. And I think it's important for us
to look out for that in any way, in any area,
in any facet of our life. Amen. Amen, Now join
my cult. It's a podcast podcast post. Welcome back to
the pod Club. I'm your leader, I mean your host,
(00:43):
Joe Piazza. No, I'm not at all close to being
a cult leader. In fact, I don't think anyone would
follow me. Ever. It's sad, but I am obsessed with cults,
obsessed and this You are a regular listener, you know
that this is the second time that talking about cults
on the Pod Club because frankly, they just make such
(01:04):
good stories and like I said, I am obsessed with them.
From the Manson Family to the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate.
I can't get enough of cult content, and either can you.
Because cult podcasts are having a moment right now, and
today I want to introduce you to one of the
best shows that I've listened to recently about cults was
(01:24):
I In a Cult. It's hosted by filmmaker Tyler Mesom
and comedian liz Aya Kuzi, and in each episode they
take you through the story of one guest who was
in but then got out of a cult. I think
the reason Liz and Tyler are so good at this
is because both of them have their own experiences with cults,
which makes them really, really the perfect hosts for a
(01:46):
show about cults. I got to talk to them about
the tricky territory of talking to people who have gone
through such a traumatic experience of being an occult, why
they think that so many people are so fascinated by cults,
and of course some of the other podcast they're listening
to these days. Guys, I'm so excited to have you
(02:07):
on today because I'm obsessed with cults. Cults are like
my reality television. I think about cults all the time.
I wonder if I'm in a cult all the time.
I realized the other day that my most paras social
relationships are with my peloton instructors, and I was convinced,
like maybe maybe I'm a little too deep maybe I'm
in Maybe I'm I'm in a kind of like a
(02:28):
strange peloton cult. But I think that's safe. I think
it's okay. So I need to know everything. Why why
did the two of you decide to make a podcast
about cults? First of all, cut to the chase. I
was in a cult. I was in a acting class
cult here in Los Angeles, California, which which makes me
(02:49):
think that I could end up being in a peloton cult.
You could you were an acting class, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
just depends on the leader. We're looking at you, Cody. Uh, oh,
it was. It was a class. I just moved here.
I was doing comedy in Chicago for a few years
and commercials and was like, I want to try real acting.
(03:10):
And I was in a really toxic relationship at the
time with a guy who was going to this woman
who was UM had how did he phrase it at
the time, some sort of like self help, oh, life coach,
life coach, and she taught these life coaching classes and
he was going with his UM sponsor because he was sober,
(03:31):
something I also didn't know much about at the time.
I was guys, I was twenty three or something or four,
like what do you know about anything when you're that
yet nothing, I'm like, oh, you don't drink cool. Oh
I didn't know that there was like a whole bunch
of other stuff that could come with that. Uh so yeah.
So I was in this relationship and he was going
to this woman with his sponsor and he would come
(03:52):
home and just be like obsessedly talking about her, like,
oh my god, she's incredible, and like I'm already learning
all these tools and my life is already changing. And
you know, she's also an acting teacher, and I met
some of the actors and they're like, like amazing people
and really talented. You should check it out. And so
(04:13):
I was like, well, you know, I was looking for
an intense sort of acting coach at the time, who
was going to really call me on my ship. Well
I got what I asked for. She I went to
this class and the people were fantastic, UM and then
there was the love bombing, but look, I didn't know
what that was. I just thought like, oh, this woman
(04:33):
has a lot of people working for her UM. And
they sort of approached me after and gave me some
of the typical cult stuff like get in today at
fift off. You know, there was a lot of that
going on. The personal anecdotes of their survival stories came
in and and I started taking this acting class and
(04:55):
it turned into this self help cult. So you guys,
I swear folka. We actually have two episodes on the
show already showcasing my cult, and we're going to end
season one finally with Tyler in my story, so you
will hear my story. I want to play a little
bit for our audience about that cult. What was it called? Well,
(05:16):
to protect our guests, they opted to not share her
name sadly, but it's um Holly Weird. The episodes called
Holly Weird and Holly Weirder and Josh. While he was
learning new tools and in fact, he started booking acting kicks,
and then one day a big opportunity comes up last minute,
(05:38):
that was very common in Hollywood, So he calls his
teacher to discuss the audition. I was like, yeah, I'm
standing outside of Warner Brothers. She's like, you're not ready.
You're not ready. You need more classes, you need more time. Here.
He has a huge opportunity, and instead of supporting him
like a true guide or teacher would, she broke him down,
(06:01):
and it was amazing to see her sabotage those opportunities
for all of her students. She was afraid that would
cause that person to leave, to no longer be there
in her class, so she would sabotage them all the time.
There's no plan for you to graduate. You're not being
taught anything, because to learn something is that eventually, I
have this skill, and I can go do this skill
(06:22):
on my own. My third grade teacher is nowhere near me,
but I'm writing, I'm doing addition, her goal was to
create an environment where you needed her in order to
succeed thereby taking more classes and paying more money. But
she always wanted more. She was slightly manic and never content.
(06:43):
She had been this acting teacher in life coach for
years and was paying the bills doing it. But then
one day she went on a yoga retreat. All right, So, Liz, Liz,
you were in a cult, and then Tyler were you
were awesome. I was raised as a Mormon, you know,
so I was in what some wouldn't consider as it called,
(07:03):
a very mainstream religion. I have only in the last
couple of years doing more research on the group itself.
Have I recognized that, Yeah, it's got very much cultic tendencies.
So yeah, both Liz and I were in a very
different but very high controlling in many aspects cults cultic environments.
And what's funny is with Tyler's is when we first started,
(07:25):
I didn't know much about Mormonism, mainstream or otherwise. And
we've had some extreme Mormon polygamus groups on our couple
on our on our show, and we've gotten so many
people writing in who are mainstream Mormons talking about it
as their cult, and it's been just eye opening for
even us as the creators of the show, for people
(07:47):
to actually share their own experience of mainstream Mormonism as
a cult. I just fish listening to the first episode
of your show, which is about a splinter sect of Mormonism,
which is absolute, but this this sect is absolutely a cult,
and you guys interview a woman named Joanne. Joanne's story
is incredible and frightening, but she's also really funny. Like I,
(08:14):
I laughed so hard while listening to that episode, And
I think that's what you guys do so well with
was I in a cult? Because you no one joins
a cult saying I want to be in a cult
and some of it is terrible, but there's also a
flip side of it, and you're telling the stories and
(08:34):
I'm going to use your words here of brave individuals
who clawed themselves out of these cults but then also
rebuilt their lives. Yeah, And and our our show is
documentary style, and it features the story of one, for
the most part, one person who was in and left
a cult. And they tell great stories, and we usually
were very good at getting good storytellers, and of course
(08:55):
we edit it, but but a lot of more sad
and heartbreaking and and and they live these horrible existences
for a while, and all of them up to this point,
I've had wonderful experiences and leaving the cult and being
sort of reborn. But what Liz and I do is
give a little bit of levity in between it and
have some fun and um never making fun of the guest, obviously,
(09:17):
but always just have a little bit of fun with
it because our guests are in a place now where
they can heal. It does help, and it's a different
kind of format, but it does help with so much
heartbreak and sadness that comes with having been in a
horrible existence of a cult. Yeah, no, it absolutely comes
through because you guys are very sensitive to your subjects
(09:39):
and very very empathetic. But at the same time, I
don't start listening to this show and feel like, oh
my gosh, this is going to be a huge downer,
it's going to make me sad and depressed. I feel
like I learned something in every episode. I laugh a
little bit, and but I also feel I also feel
all of the feelings which I really wanted a podcast.
(10:02):
So you're doing You're doing a great job with it. Thanks,
We love what We appreciate that because that is the
goal of this show is to sort of break the
stereotypes that have been surrounding cults and to be frank
cult followers. Right, there's the Lemmings and they're lost and
they're vulnerable, and we're just breaking down all those stereotypes.
(10:23):
We're just showing you this is your mom, this is
your aunt, this is your brother, this is you, this
is anyone you know or you know. How people are
susceptible to being manipulated into cults is widely misunderstood. Yeah,
I mean, as you said it, no one joins a cult,
and basically what we we see when people join the
cults is that they they're usually vulnerable people and they're
(10:47):
actually a type of personalities who want to do something better.
They want to go to heaven, they want to be
a better actress, they want to know people, they want
to be a better spin, they want to be better
on their palton I do I do. They usually get
taken advantage of by a narcissist who you know, abuses
(11:10):
that vulnerability for his or own his or her own good.
And we also really try to focus on the how,
right because a lot of the things that you watch
um in on TV or anything focusing on cults, you're
already you're already there with the awareness I'm watching someone
in a cult. Right. So with this show, we're trying
to take you on the journey with our guests. Here's
(11:34):
their life before, here's who they are, right, Oh wow,
that's my best friend, and then this they go to
this presentation or they go to a class, and it's
it doesn't happen overnight, you know, it's a slow burn.
And the way you get slowly indoctrinated into these environments
is really important to understand for your own personal safety
(11:56):
and for the world to understand how cults work, and
so we really that's the goal of this show is
to take you on the whole experience before in and out.
Do you have a favorite episode? So oh man, I
mean we've done eighteen episodes. We're launching another one this
week and another one next week. Um, Lauren, she's the
(12:17):
Black Keebrew Israelite. She What I love about her story
and bravery is she's twenty three. I'm want to say
she um, you know, she's she's our youngest survivor to date,
I believe. And she kind of was like reached out going.
I want I think I was in a cult, and
I think this is a cult, and I'm scared as hell,
(12:40):
but I want to tell my story and just it was.
It was incredible, and she was incredible, and her story
is incredible. And the feedback we've gotten from her particular
episode and and that cult in general, because that cult,
if you look up Black Keebrew Israelites, it's not labeled
as a cult. It's a very um it's still spoken
(13:03):
about is a extreme religion. So that one to me
was she's very brave. You know that community, A lot
of people have not spoken up about who have gotten out,
so I feel like she that one touched my heart.
It's a good story. The weird part about it is
(13:27):
they believe it's slavery just happened because of a curse
from God. They don't blame white people for slavery because
they were like it was our fault. This belief essentially
comes from a number of Bible scriptures, but one of
which is Deuteronomy, which states, but it shall come to
pass if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of
the Lord, thy God, to observe to do all his
(13:49):
commandments and his statutes, which I command THEE this day,
that all these curses shall come upon THEE and overtake thee.
They leave that everything slavery, segregation, picspitality, anything, they believe
it's all a curse from God. They also believe that
the remaining eleven tribes are other minorities, like Mexican people,
(14:13):
patients are in there. They even like Jamaicans, Like there's
all types of different races, but African Americans are number one.
Keep in mind, it's not just black people generally who
are chosen, it's specifically African Americans. So if you're black
but you're not American. You're just not that special. Sorry,
Black Canadians, for some reason, I just feel like they're
(14:34):
the most slighted. Yeah, pretty much. But as Canadians are
still going to apologize for and drinking under the table
while doing Oh come on, Canada, we love you. And
look all of them all everybody who comes on our
show blows me away, to be honest with you, everybody
who sits down and is vulnerably sharing, you know. And
(14:58):
what's great is that I think they appreciate it because
they're getting a platform that is different than the normal
cult platform. We're not going oh, look at you, weird
person in a cult, right, We're saying, look, tell your story,
you know, share with us, and we're going to tell
your story through your perspective, not through the perspective of
(15:21):
the cult or the cult leader. And I think that's
rare because I think that there are a lot of
shows about cults out there that are just they're so
voyeuristic and they're like, oh my god and sensationalized, total
oh my god, look at these freaks, look at the
look at these weirdos. You know, they're amazing stories these
people tell, and um, good stories happen to those who
(15:43):
can tell them, and we've been lucky to get people
who really are open and brave and vulnerable and willing
to tell remarkable stories. And they're there. They've lived enough
of it that they can now look back and see
what an existence they lived, and they have kind of
left it in the back back seat and they no
longer deal with it every day. Although, you know, leaving
(16:05):
a cult is one thing, leaving a cult in your
mind is another thing. And they show that they have
work to do, and most of them really work hard
at you know, leaving that cultic behind, that cult experience
behind you. Guys are all cults all the time? Over
(16:46):
it was Iron Cult. What are you listening to when
you don't want to talk about cults? What other podcasts
are in your ear? Wow? I am partial to documentary
style podcast. I'm a documentary filmmaker, so I I love
the storytelling. I love to see a story being built.
I love to see the production and the creative process
(17:08):
behind it. Um. So I just finished Operator, which I
thought was okay. Um, you know I love Invisible. That
is a that is just a go to for me.
It is my breakfast and dinner and of course you
know this American life is just a solid bedrock keeps
me happy. Um, I do a lot of like I
(17:30):
like a lot of comedian comedy podcast Um, like SmartLess
I enjoy. I like Sarah Silverman's podcast. Um, don't ask
Tignats podcast. So Tignataros podcast is like don't ask tig
She doesn't have the answers, but she's still going to
(17:51):
give you her advice essentially, And she's really funny and
and she talks about things that she's not an expert on, right,
Like she doesn't know why, Um, you're depressed, Tyler, but
she's going to give her best answer for it. Oh, Tyler, Tyler,
are you depressed? Because I'll bet there's a cult that
(18:11):
could fix that. You know, I signed me up? Who
do I have to give money to? Another one I'm
listening to is on Purpose with Jay Shetty. No wait wait, no,
I don't I don't know any on purpose. He's um,
he's like an old not an old. He's he was
(18:32):
a monk. I want to say, yeah, he was a
monk and a podcast. Yeah, and now he's no longer
a monk, but now he like he interviewed Will Smith.
That's the first episode I was pased on. It's really
fascinating and he's not a cult leader. He's not a
(18:54):
cult I remember the first time I probably met you
is a Willow's birthday a few years back, and everyone
was wearing it was Willow Ween, so everyone's dressed in
costumes and stuff, so I didn't even know it was you.
And then you had you had like the Zoro kind
of mask over your eyes, and so it was a
(19:15):
big person. I was like, oh, maybe that's will maybe
that's not. I didn't know, and then you lifted your
mask off. And the thing I recognized you about from
the moment I met you was just your ability. You
have this unique ability to just be really present and
kind and and deeply there with everyone you meet. And
(19:35):
I think that for you, know, having having met you
in public arenas, whether it's the Bad Boys Premier, and
then in our personal meetings, as you were mentioning, you're
just even better and I think that that's so hard
to be when you're so but but I remember that,
and there was the hospitality men RADI felt with you
(19:55):
like that, that ability to care for each person walking
in the family aspect, making us feel welcomed in a
part of it that I just think that that in
today's world, that human aspect is what we're all missing.
Although if you guys heard Dakota Ring, do you guys
ever listen to Dakoda Ring. It's basically a woman who
(20:20):
cracks cultural mysteries and they're fantastic and they're quirky and
they're interesting, and I think the host is dynamic and
wonderful and they take on really odd things and odd
mysteries UM in our culture, like the The Tasteless Jokes book,
the book in the eighties that was Taste truly tasteless Jokes,
(20:42):
or the worst video game in history, or vampires. I mean,
really crazy cool stuff. But it's done with a very light,
fun texture. It's a great under definitely under heralded podcast.
Do you have a favorite episode of that one that
reachul listen to? Um? You know, there's one that they
do that I like because as a filmmaker and a
(21:02):
film boff, they they explore the Tutsie shot. If you
know what the Tutsie shot is, it's basically a very
crowded New York City street where one person I eat
Tutsie from the film Tutsie is kind of lost in
the site. Yeah, And it explores and examines the history
of that shot and why that shot is important, and
all of the films that it was in and where
(21:24):
it came about, and it's just this really odd little
They took a little moment in cinema history and they
made it into a forty five minute episode, and I
thought it was just so much fun. There's a shot
you've probably seen in a lot of movies. It's of
(21:46):
the film's protagonist, but it takes a second to spot
her because she's smack in the middle of a crowd.
It's a dense rush hour crowd, everybody headed somewhere, and
she's headed somewhere too. There's usually a rousing song playing
on the soundtrack, and the camera keeps her in focus
and she walks down the street even as everyone around
(22:08):
her is a little fuzzy. She's one of many, but
she has our attention. Do you have a favorite burden?
I think it's amazing to me that I haven't been
in a cult yet, because I feel like I'm the
kind of person that is very susceptible. Well, you're a
dream are you a dreamer? Yeah? Yeah, exactly like I.
(22:32):
I want to dream big. I want to improve myself.
I like I want to I also want to believe
in people. So I'm really just waiting for the right
cult leader to come along. We can send if you're
here her way. Okay, Well, I have a question for you, Joe,
Why are you so obsessed with cults? Because I think
a lot of people say that, and I'm always curious
(22:53):
as to like what that personal connection is or if
it's just is there something I think create Well, I really,
I really think that I am so into stories about
cults because they're always such fascinating stories, right because of
the storytelling aspect of it. It's never just about the cult.
(23:14):
It's about what happened to you before you joined the cult,
how you got to this CULTI place, And then I'm
also I love stories about really charismatic leaders that are
able to convince people to follow them, and then the
implications that that has throughout society. I so fun fact
(23:35):
about me. I have a master's in religious studies from
from Ny and I think and I really kind of
took it for fun. I wrote a book about nuns
in another life, but I think a lot about what
is the difference between a religion that is quote acceptable
(23:56):
and a cult, and it's really just mass acceptance around
the world because if you think of every major religion,
I know I'm gonna insult some people here. Everything has
culti aspects about it. Everything has something weird about it
or that someone else would think is weird. So I
think I'm fascinated by cults because I often think about
(24:18):
that fine line between what is culturally acceptable and what
people in the mainstream consider right, and that is that
is a question that may not have a defined answer,
because one person is called is another person's church. And
we're seeing cults that aren't churches nowadays, that aren't based
around religion, and frankly, we're seeing more cults now than
(24:41):
we've ever seen in America especially, so it's really difficult
in some ways to define that. I think that the
word cult can be used too often, um and flippantly,
but at the same time, I think it can be
used it's used sparingly. I think more people can look
at like behaviors. In every situation. There are individuals who
(25:04):
can take advantage of you, and it's up to us
to be aware of them and be cautious of them.
And I'd like to think that our show allows people
to recognize and see areas in which they may be
able to be taken advantage of by other individuals, and
(25:25):
I think it's important for us to look out for
that in any way, in any area, in any facet
of our life. Amen, now join my cults. I see
you just convinced me. I think that's what's so tricky though.
To Joe, it's like the difference between a class and
(25:47):
a cult really comes down to the to the leader. Right.
You can take a workout class and it can just
be a workout class. You can do a workout class
and it can turn into a cult. It just depends
on the narcissist behind, you know, the dog, the doctrine.
So that's what's hopefully our show is showcasing and helping
(26:10):
people to understand what constitutes are cult. Great, um, guys,
this is awesome. I love the podcast. It's really there's
so many crappy podcasts out there, and yours is very very,
very well done and interesting. So I will I will
thank you for having genuinely listen. I will listen to
more episodes. And that's not always true, right now, I
(26:32):
get it, I get it. There's a lot out there. Well,
we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for for
having us. Hong. Okay, that's it. That's all we've got
for the pod Club today. And if you're just as
in the cults as Liz Tyler and I, then you
you have no choice. You must go listen to their
show was I In a Cult? That was my cult voice,
(26:52):
by the way, but really their show Was I In
a Cult? Is very good and and so well done
and not sensationalistic, not tabloid e and spammy, it's just
it's just good documentary podcasting. If you want podcasts about
literally anything else, Let's recap their recommendations. We talked about
don't ask Tig and yes, I want Tig Nataro on
(27:16):
this show. Real freaking bad on Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Would also love some Jay and Dakota ring. I hope
you enjoy. I hope you stay safe. I hope you
stay away from those charismatic cult leaders. And I can't
wait to talk to you next week. The pod Club
is hosted by me Joe Pianza. Our executive producers are
(27:38):
Me Again and Emily Marinoff. Our producers are Mary Do
and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is Lauren Philip. Our
theme and additional music was composed by Aaron Kaufman. Aaron
Kaufman is also our consulting producer and special thanks to
Nikki Tour. It was just a wonderful human being where
I like to think at the end of episodes at
(28:04):
the e
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