11. The Psychology of Friendship Breakups - the fizzle, toxic people and forgiveness

In this episode we are discussing the psychology behind friendship breakups - why we need to move on from people, the types of toxic friends to look out for, the best way to breakup with a friend and more! Tune in for some juicy psychology and lessons for our 20’s.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the Very unprofessional podcast, whereby we talk through some of
the big changes and transitions of our twenties and what
they mean for our psychology. Chow bon jour. How are
we all? Lockdown? Week five? Baby, just add an extension

(00:31):
announced this morning, So here we are thriving. Thank you
very much Andrew bar keeping us safe as always. But
I hope you guys are all doing well wherever you
may be listening Lockdown or not. Hope the sun is shining,
that you're being COVID safe obviously, and that something amazing

(00:52):
has happened to you this week. I'm just going to
jump right into it. This topic, the friendship breakup, has
been on my mind, taunting my dreams quite a bit
for the past month or so, but I haven't really
been able to work up the courage to record it
or research it. I think for a few reasons. Firstly,

(01:12):
it's insanely personal, and although I've talked about, you know,
things like unrequited love and hookups and heartbreak on this podcast,
this is the first episode where it would just be
entirely natural for me to come off looking like the
bad guy, which my ego obviously wasn't too fond of.
And secondly, I didn't really want to do any injustice

(01:34):
or harm to anyone who I was once friends with,
who I have quote unquote broken up with, which will
kind of discuss later on. And I think like another
reason I was kind of hesitant about recording this is
it's kind of painful to look back at experiences like that,
and I just don't think I was really in the
right headspace to like dig deep into past friendships which

(01:56):
were insanely meaningful for me, but which have now faded, fizzled,
we've gone our separate ways. But yeah, I've made peace
with all those things. I talked to my therapist about it.
Shout out Josie God, I love her so much of
the best, and she said it was a good idea,
perhaps even a little bit healing if I came at

(02:16):
it with a wise mind, which is her favorite term.
So here we are, recording in my car, yet again,
ready to bury some hatches, discuss the psychology behind friendship
breakups and the fizzle, and why that age old saying
is true. You know, if you're not losing friends, you're
not growing up. So strap in for a great episode.

(02:40):
I do just want to say before we get into it,
this is not some like personal rant about people who
have left my life. No bad feelings will be shared here.
I just think it's a really interesting topic and researching
this has caused me to reflect on some of my
own friendship breakups, and I think throughout this episode I
was particularly reflecting on three friendships in particular that have

(03:02):
all ended in the past year, and I just thought
there was heaps to learn in this. Often I think
uncharted to rain. Yeah, and I think I just received
a lot of personal closure looking back at some of
those friendships, thinking about what I could have done differently,
or maybe what I didn't need to do, you know. Yeah,
I would explain kind of my thinking behind it a

(03:22):
little bit later. Yeah, And, like I said, a lot
of personal closure that I would just love to share.
So in researching this episode, I read an article that
had probably one of the best titles, and it really
I think inspired how where I kind of took this
episode the form that it took. So if you want
to read it, its title was friendship Breakups the most

(03:43):
untold love story And isn't that the truth? Isn't that
just a big cup of truth. Friendship breakups or fizzles,
They're just as serious and can create the same feelings
and reactions as normal breakups. You know, the loneliness, guilt,
and awkwardness, the grief. Like grief can be a huge

(04:03):
component that I think is often underappreciated and not really
too often spoken about. And I think friendships also contain
just as much love as romantic relationships can, and appreciation
as well if you do them right, of course, and
heaps of studies have proven time and time again that
friendships are one of the most important ways to enrich

(04:26):
your life. They improve your well being, they aid in
the stable release of dopamine and serotonin, and they can
help you cope with trauma, cope with things like your
parents are like friendships are just as important as a
as a part of your social network as a relationship is.
So I think that yeah, they're just as important, but

(04:47):
they aren't always held to the same esteem. And I
think this all has to do with how our society
creates like an internal hierarchy within our minds of which
relationships are more important and us the level of emotions
we're able to feel in those relationships and in response
to them. So bear with me here, But in this hierarchy,

(05:10):
friendships are not given nearly as much as importance I
think as familial or intimate relationships. So you know, friends
are just seen as more plentiful and replaceable, which I
think is entirely incorrect. You know, good friendships, stable friendships,
and lasting friendships are incredibly, incredibly rare, But we have

(05:31):
been conditioned to place more emphasis on finding and keeping
intimate partners, and there's a greater expectation of suffering in
grief when romantic relationships end, whereas that kind of reaction
over friendships I don't think is as normalized or expected,
which is a huge problem as to why we don't
really talk about what it kind of feels like to

(05:51):
go through a painful end with a friend. I think
people and people often underestimate what a big deal it
is for a friendship to end, and they can just
be you know, these breakups of sorts can be just
as uncomfortable and sad as romantic endings. You know, I
kind of I don't really want to stress this point,
but I just think it's so important, Like you can

(06:11):
share a similar level of intimacy memory is vulnerability with
someone you will never romantic or sexual with, and when
those relationships come to an end, there is an emptiness
in their place, because no one is entirely replaceable, and
every individual brings something entirely different to your life, even
if that friendship is no longer fruitful or successful. I

(06:36):
had this actually with someone like thinking of them. I
had this or someone at the end of last year,
and I think as much as it was important to
no longer speak to this friend and essentially cut them off,
there are times that I really miss them and I
missed their presence because we did share a lot of
memories and a lot of personal vulnerability. So it was
a hard conundrum, and I've have had quite a few

(06:58):
moments I won't lie where I've wanted to reach out,
where I've wanted to message them, rekindle the conversation, talk
it kind of about what went wrong, But I just
realized that it is for the best that we're no
longer in each other's lives, and as far as I
can see, they're really happy and so am I. So
I think it's just best to leave it be, even
though it's really fucking awkward. When I run into them

(07:19):
in Dixon Woolley's. Yeah, maybe if they're listening to this,
they'll know it's about them. But yeah, I think no
one's entirely replaceable, even when you do know that those
friendships aren't meant to last. And like I said, as
important as friendships are, romantic relationships tend to get all
the glory. Meanwhile, the platonic ones, they're really undervalued, I think.

(07:41):
And I read an excellent chapter of this book. It's
called The Friendship Fix. Would definitely recommend it if you're
into this kind of literature, and it's written by this psychologist.
Her name is doctor Andrew Bonnar, and this is what
she kind of explains. Because there is not the weighty
expectation of monogamy which is often associated with romantic relationships,

(08:06):
people have a much harder time ending friendships. So this
was a bit confusing when I first read it, and
I did think it was like a bit of a stretch,
But this is how she explains it, and it makes
a lot more sense when you read more of the book. So,
when you're in a relationship with someone and you're in
a monogamous relationship, a close relationship, you have to break

(08:28):
up with a partner in order to move on to
someone new, So you know, you have to break up
with them. It's an action that has to happen for
you to move on to any relationship. But in terms
of a friendship, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from
avoiding a friendship breakup, indefinitely, putting off the confrontation and
just hanging out with other people instead. You know, you

(08:48):
can't cheat on your friends the way that you could
cheat on a partner, and you can have multiple friends,
whereas in relationships we have that expectation of monogamy. So
often what happens is we end up staying in these
friendships and prolonging them with you know, little snippets of
interactions when we should just be cutting ties. I think

(09:09):
also unlike our romantic relationships or you know, however, unlike
romantic relationships in which there is kind of an understanding
that things may not work out, and that's kind of
part of the agreement you both sign up for. You know,
the inevitability of a breakup from a relationship in your
teenage years or you know, in your twenties, an it's understood.

(09:32):
It's a dynamic of a romantic attachment. But with friendships,
we assume that our friends will be around forever. We
expect that will be you know, old people retiring together,
beat each other's weddings, meet the family, meet each other's kids.
So this means that if there is a break up,
we aren't just grieving the present loss of that friend,
but also the loss of that friend in our imagined future.

(09:54):
It also makes ending of friendships quite awkward and appears unnecessary.
You know, why do we need to break up with
a friend? Why not just let it fizzle and let
the debris settle. I think sometimes that's just not really
a healthy option. Sometimes it's also not the best way
to avoid hurt. Like the last taste of your friendship

(10:18):
should not be one of bitterness and resentment. So sometimes
you do need to have that chat with them. You
need to talk to them and be like, this isn't
really working. The same book I was reading kind of
goes into this a little bit more, and it concluded
that there were two main reasons why friendships end. But
I think I've added a third because I think it

(10:39):
also deserves acknowledgement. That's the fizzle. So these are the
three reasons the three big, fat reasons why this psychologist
believes that friendships end. So Number one, something bad happens,
a betrayal, circumstances that make you realize that you and
that the person can no longer be friends. These are

(11:02):
relationships that end because of something really terrible, often resulting
in maybe a big fight or something of that genre.
It's not reparable the fizzle. You just lose your chemistry
with someone. You drift. That's that, no harm, no foul,
no falling out. You have those friends you were really

(11:23):
close to at some point, and now the conversation no
longer flows in the same manner, and you both kind
of recognize that you don't really have that same spark.
And finally, incompatibility and values, perhaps you were really good
friends for some time, but as you've grown, your compatibility
and values in life have changed. Or maybe your values

(11:45):
really never aligned in the first place, and something has
made you realize that, or just made you realize that
you expect different things from each other as friends, and
I think in general this is the most common reason
friendships typically come to an end, because there is a
disconnect that one or both of you feel is beyond repair.

(12:06):
It's not nasty. It's not a negative thing. You're simply
going through different life transitions that are going to take
you to different places. And there's that age old wisdom.
My friend Lucy to tell this to me the other day.
People come into your life for a reason, a season
or a lifetime, and that applies to friendships, I think

(12:30):
more than any other kind of relationship. Think about all
those people that you know from high school who are
still friends with the exact same people. They just has
to be. I think some tension and incompatibility in these situations.
You know, how can you be on the same trajectory
as every person in your life that you have ever
shared a friendship with. People Change and stagnation is really unhealthy.

(12:55):
It doesn't allow your brain to move, grow, change, and
it doesn't give you new experiences or new ways to
learn with new people. Because if you're keeping all those
people that you've always been friends with, there's no room
for new people. There's no room for someone else. And
that kind of means it's necessary to shed or relationships

(13:15):
to grow into your new skin. Like I said, imagine
if you were friends with every person you have ever
shared a connection with like it would be a fucking
full time job and more to stay in contact with
all of them, to hear about, provide support to all
of them, to have to stay up to date with
their lives. Essentially, I think, although that was a bit

(13:36):
of a rant, what I'm trying to kind of communicate
is that friendships ending is not only normal, but also
a necessary part of growth, and it should be something
that we are more honest about. If you and a
person are no longer compatible, you have different priorities, you
know why, for said at that stage, would it not

(13:57):
just be better to give each other the freedom to
move on and transform into the new versions of yourselves,
rather than you both kind of having to appease those
who are now a reflection of a past you. I
think there is one element of friendship breaks ups that
I do really want to touch on, though because I'm
very not I don't want to say like, I'm a

(14:17):
pro friendship breakup person, but I'm pro cultivating the right
relationships for you. We often hear someone refer to an
ex friend as toxic or they bring negative energy into
their life, and I'm sure we've all used that word.
Or you know their toxic is farc or their relationship
was like so it was like really toxic, Like they're

(14:38):
a toxic person. And I kind of have always had
a bit of a problem with this, like do toxic
people really exist? Is this a reason to kind of
justify ending a friendship with someone that they're toxic, They're
inherently toxic. And I do have a bit of a
particular opinion about this obviously that I don't think is

(14:58):
necessarily shared by everyone. But I really don't think that
toxic people as a category exist. I don't think that
anyone in particular is, you know, just toxic to their core.
People just have friction with other people and not with others,
and that creates negativity. And that toxicity that we associate

(15:19):
with someone in particular, it's not that person. It's your
relationship within with that person, not them, And I think
those are those things that we can't really confuse and
because of your relationship and because it's not compatible, that's
what creates that negativity. Like, no one is toxic. I

(15:39):
hate that phrase. I don't think that we can claim
anyone is toxic. But with that in mind, I do
think there obviously is a certain point where friendships do
cross boundaries and become an increasingly negative force on your life,
and psychological research does say there are certain personality types

(16:00):
that do tend to conflict with others, meaning that those
relationships are more likely to be kind of charged with negativity.
So these types of people have, like I said, distinct
personalities or ways of operating socially, but this doesn't make
them entirely toxic or toxic for everyone. They just might
not be the most compatible with you or with the

(16:21):
majority of people. So according to some of this recent
research that I stumbled across, and this was really interesting
because I've never heard of this concept before, but this
researcher suggests that there are at least four basic types
of people that we generally may see as toxic, So
the narcissistic as narcissistic aggressive person, the phren of me,

(16:46):
the negative complaining person, and the seductive overly dramatic person.
Starting off, so, the narcissistic aggressive type is often someone
who is selfish but still highly charming, so they charm
and suck you in and can be rather assertive, but
they're also inclined towards possessiveness. So although the initial stages

(17:09):
of the friendship may be very gioy and exciting, pleasant
even there is often a degree of rage or anger
when things don't grow their own way, and intense outbursts.
Almost when you spend time with people or they tend
to or you know, they might perceive that you're neglecting them.
So the fhren of me is the next archetype. So

(17:31):
they seem like a friend, but can often become jealous.
Perhaps they're prone to gossip and you feel like you
just can't trust them. You might even feel inclined to
say that they're or perhaps see that they're deliberately trying
to sabotage your happiness amongst other people in order to
kind of bolster their self worth self esteem as well.
And by sabotaging those other relationships, it also increases your

(17:55):
reliance on them. So the third archetype this is the
negative complaining person, and this is someone who never never
appears happy. They're never satisfied with your friendship and what
you have to give them in any way. Nothing pleases them.
And I had a friend like this, and my fucking god,
it was exhausting being around. You know, someone who regards

(18:17):
their life as terrible and can never take encouragement is exhausting,
it's so tiring, it makes you feel depressed. You just
feel so hopeless, and you want to help them, but
it's just sometimes there's just as people who are just
ultimately pessimistic and perhaps at first, you know, like other archetypes,

(18:38):
they appear really friendly and they're open to adventure, but
it can often change into passive aggression and need to
dominate your social life and a pattern of negativity that
is really difficult to deal with and it's difficult to overcome,
and it's I think a being indicator of this type
of person, the negative complaining person is that it's emotionally
draining to be around them, and it's emotionally draining to

(19:01):
hear how everyone and everything in life is failing them
and going poorly whilst you're trying to hold them up
trying to support them. Finally, the seductive, overly dramatic person.
So these people, they're often the life of the party.
They're physically attractive, intelligent, charming, exciting, but they steamroll you.

(19:23):
They require all of your attention. This is the type
of person or individual who never seems to be listening
when you're telling them your issues, or they're interrupt and
trying to make something funnier about them just cut you off.
They talk over you, and they often require a lot
of attention and energy, but almost never seem to come

(19:45):
through for you, or they never really seem to acknowledge
you either. You're just kind of an accessory for them.
They crave attention, but it can leave you as the
friend feeling pretty depleted and unworthy, unseen or useles. So,
knowing that there are these types of people out there,
I'm sure we can all conjure upon some image of

(20:08):
someone who would fit into at least one of these
four categories. But then there's the question, we all know
someone like this, So why do we continue to remain
friends with people who treat us poorly or who make
us feel unappreciated. So one reason why we remain friends
with people a lot longer than necessary is fear. It's

(20:31):
fear of loneliness. Humans have a natural drive to avoid loneliness.
It's built into our DNA. So when we feel less
socially connected or separated, or feel like a member of
our extended tribe essentially is treating us poorly or withdrawing,
It creates this visceral knee jerk reaction. Emotionally and as

(20:55):
a tribal species, our brains have adapted to rely on
social connections as a means to survive. So, according to
this neuroscience scientist, his name was John Kaciopo. Kaciopo, John Kaciopo,
I'll put it in the show notes. You can have
a look at it if you want. He's made a
career out of basically just studying loneliness, a really kind

(21:18):
of a sad niche and in one of his recent
papers he made this point. So, the absence of social
connection triggers the same primal alarm bells as hunger, thirst,
and physical pain. So this is what leads us to
maintain friendships even when they are incompatible or we no

(21:39):
longer feel satisfied, especially if we feel like we have
limited options beyond that friend or group of friends. Additionally,
unhealthy friendships can do enormous damage to your confidence levels
without you even realizing it. So the idea of leaving
what is comfortable, even if it's not fulfilling, and going
out to find new friends it can be extra terrifying

(22:02):
if you already are in a place of depleted self esteem.
This also kind of leads on to another reason why
we stay friends with people who might not necessarily be
the best fit for our character or bring out the
best aspects of who we are. We want to feel needed.
Everyone wants to feel like they provide value to the world,

(22:23):
and if we're there for our friends, if we have friends,
it makes us feel like we're valuable. And social connections
are also an incredibly meaningful and often understated way in
which we feel we have purpose. Friendships and social ties
they allow us to situate ourselves in our external world,

(22:45):
and internally they make us feel secure and supported, especially
when our presence is serving a function for someone else.
The underlying psychology and the socially tuned nature of our
brain can also make it exceptionally difficult to end friendships,
especially if, like in a breakup, we're concentrating on times

(23:06):
when our friendships were positive and warm and glowy and nice.
Friendships have a honeymoon face, just like relationships. But I
think just like relationships, we also tend to outgrow them.
Like I said, if you're not losing friends, you're not growing.
But I think the important thing to remember and I

(23:27):
know it's just like this isn't like a necessarily very
wise thing to say. I just think it's a nice
way to end the episode. Is that friends should be
there to support you and to enrich your life, and
if they're bringing you down, it's probably time to move on.
If you don't enjoy their company, move on. The people
you choose to surround yourself with should be great spirits,
and they should inspire you to be the absolute best

(23:49):
you can and just create that energy that you yourself
funding and body and represent. I think in our twenties
it's inevitable you're going to go through a friendship breakup,
but recognizing when it is time to move on and
handling it with grace is kind of our best option
at that point. Honestly, I don't know, this is a
bit weird, but why not have like a breakup chat

(24:10):
about it. I've done it with friends before. It kind
of curbs the awkwardness. And obviously that's not an option
for everyone. If someone's done something really terrible to you,
cut them out. You know, vibe so high you don't
need them. Sometimes you know you're just going to have
to have awkward run ins with X friends and just
hope that you're both mature mature enough to like not

(24:32):
mention it and just ask how each other have been
and move on, me the bigger person. Anyhow, I hope
you guys enjoyed this episode. Like I kind of mentioned,
it was incredibly cathartic, and it's kind of been building
up in my notes archive for a while. So I
just think it's super important to talk about friendship breakups.

(24:52):
They're everywhere. We can all think of someone who we're
no longer friends with, maybe we even resent them, we
haven't forgiven them for something. It feels like that refrenchhip
felt like a relationship even so, definitely something I think
needs to be talked about more So. I hope that
kind of understanding some of the psychology behind it was interesting,
And like I said, like I always say, I guess,

(25:16):
remember to subscribe to this podcast if you liked it
on wherever you're listening. Honestly, I'm sure you can subscribe
there unless it's like on the website like my grandparents
do it. And I hope that we're all coping well
with lockdown and whatever is going on with your life. Yeah,
feel free to drop some suggestions as well on Instagram
if you've got any ideas about what you want to

(25:38):
hear about on the next episode of the show, and
as always, thanks so much for listening.