February 19, 2024 • 50 mins
Our 20s are one of the best times for us to change careers. Perhaps you're feeling burntout, bored, unmotivated, craving something bigger, something with purpose or better hours, a change from the life and job you currently have. In this episode we break down how we can change careers in our 20s, some of the challenges, how to manage the financial insecurity, the signs your old job is not right for you and discovering your true mission and purpose and life (even if it doesn't always revolve around your job and a pay check).
We are joined by the founder and CEO of The Career Contessa, host of the hit podcast and author, Lauren Goodwin who shares her years worth of advice and best tips.
Follow Career Contessa here: @CareerContessa
Listen to the podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0k0EzNNiLnWICq7gQuFQFg?si=3b84c545aea54800
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast, New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, it is so great to
have you here. Back for another episode as we break
down the psychology of our twenties. A bit of a
universal truth about this decade is that nothing is set
in stone.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
This is obviously one of the major periods in our
life for exploration for change, and that includes the jobs
we work and our career path. I think in the past,
our careers were very much mapped out for us. Restricted
we chose one career path and it kind of followed
us through life. And nowadays we have a lot more
(01:07):
freedom and capacity for change, and I think it's really
valuable to discuss how we could make that scary transition
from one career to another, facing things like financial uncertainty,
job in security during this decade and making that decision
because either we are unhappy with where we are or
we're just looking for something different, something more fulfilling more us,
(01:31):
or maybe there's been a factor beyond out control, getting
fired for example, or just being burnt out. I think honestly,
our twenties are the best time for this change, and
it might feel really scary to start from scratch. You
might not even know where to begin. But that is
where our amazing guest comes in. We thought we might
bring on an expert, the founder of carea Contessa, Lauren,
(01:54):
to took us through exactly how we can kind of
change careers in our twenties and be sure of our decisions. Lauren,
thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Firstly, can you tell us a bit about yourself and
what you do?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and then we'll get to the psychology of it.
So my name is Laura mcgodwin. I'm the founder and
CEO of career Contessa. We are the largest online professional
platform for women in their careers. Anybody can use our site,
but we do, you know, mostly tailor our advice and
content for women and because women's careers are different, being
a woman in the workplace is different. And really what
(02:30):
we do is we help people, you know, get hired,
get paid, advance at work, build these fulfilling careers and
the reality and kind of where the psychology piece of
this kind of probably comes into is that mindset of
like there's no one career for anybody, you know, there's
not like linear career paths. One plus one doesn't always
equal to in your careers. And so what I set
(02:50):
out to create was this resource that wasn't just a
job site, which is what a lot of things are.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
They're like get the job and then we're done with you.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
I really wanted a career site that could build and
grow with people as a navigate different transitions and shifts
in their careers. So we did that at Career Contesta.
We have a podcast called Career Cantesta. I have a
book called Power Moves. You know, we have all all
the things so that people can can continue to thrive
in their workplace.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I honestly love that. I wish I'd had a resource
like that when I first like finished university, because the
only thing I really had access to was like seek
and like that was it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Like yeah, I seek in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like the job page of like my university website. So
that is like super super amazing and I think such
a great resource. I also love what you said, where
by one plus one doesn't always equal to when it
comes to our careers.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, it's very frustrating, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
But also it's super it's really frustrating, but then it's
also kind of freeing because sometimes you can equal four
or like five.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, exactly exactly me.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Like I'm thinking about my own kind of path through
my twenties and like their little career dips and turns
that I talk. And I started this decade working hospital.
Then I worked as like in a cool center. Then
I worked as like an interviewer for the government that
I was working as a consultant. Like now I'm here.
I feel like, if that's what the first five years
(04:13):
of my twenties has had for me, the last five
years even more so.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Anyhow, Yes, absolutely, I like your optimistic view on all
things so far.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I'm so glad. I'm so glad, and I feel, yeah,
I feel like it's better to just approach things with
this air of like surely this is this is all
going to turn out Okay.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
It leads to a lot of one of my favorite
quotes is it's this or something better, And it's like,
you know what, because what's the alternative, You're gonna be like,
it was this or my life is over. Like, you know,
you don't want that either, so it's this or something better.
It's kind of been my new motto.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I love Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Absolutely, We're gonna talk about that more on a personal
level later. But one of my first questions for you
is what are some of the common reasons why individuals
people like us in now twenties might consider changing careers.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I mean, it happens for a whole variety of reasons.
It can be that you kind of fell into a career.
So maybe you found a job through your career center
and it wasn't something you really wanted, but it was
better than nothing, and so you kind of were doing
it and all of a sudden you're like, I don't
want to do this the rest of my life. For example,
my very first job at a college MINEU I graduated
during a recession wasn't great. I was an admin assistant
(05:24):
for a university. I didn't want to do that forever
I knew I didn't, and I just sort of needed
the time to. You know, obviously, bills won't pay themselves,
so you sometimes will take a bridge job while you
are working toward wherever you.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Want to go next.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Sometimes it can be that, Okay, I've started working and
I have a huge interest in this other thing, and
I really want to maybe keep doing my job function
but in a different industry. And then you have the
flip side where it's like, I want to stay in
the same industry but do something totally different. I had
a really good friend. We worked on the recruiting team
together at Hulu, and she made in her twenties, she
(05:59):
transitioned from the recruiting team to the marketing team. Now
she has a much bigger career in marketing. It was
that transition that sort of was the first stepping stone.
So I think this happens a lot. I also think
in your twenties, you sort of you don't know what
you don't know, and so one of the beautiful things
about working and just taking something getting out there is
that you start to get introduced to new things and
(06:20):
you start to follow your curiosity. And so there's so
many reasons why people might consider a career pivot, whether
it's I just want to do something different, or I want,
you know, more salary potential. Someone who maybe decided they
wanted to be a teacher and they're like, you know what,
I love this career, but I can't live off of
this salary, So what can I do? So like people,
(06:41):
you know, everyone has their personal reasons it. You know,
it can be I want to work remote, Okay, so
what careers are going to allow you to do that forever?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So I think it all comes down to.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Sort of people having a little bit more clarity about
what they really want or something that really matters a
lot to them, and you kind of it's like you
can't always figure those things out thinking about them. You know,
clarity comes from engagement, not thought. It's not my quote,
that's Maray Folio's. But I love it because you can't
just sit there and think really hard and help that
(07:11):
the answer comes.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
You do have to get out there and start doing.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And I feel like it's such an exercise of like
value realignment because as we go through our twenties, the
values that we held when we first maybe entered the
workplace and we're making career related decisions at like sixteen
and seventeen, like whilst we were still in high school. Yeah,
those values change. Maybe when they were eighteen years old,
(07:36):
you really valued money and you really valued this idea
of I'm going to build all this wealth in my
twenties so that I can relax for the rest of
my life, and you get halfway through that and you
realize this is incredibly unfulfilling and like not a life
that I want to leave. Like I think there are
so many factors that come down to finding something that
(07:57):
aligns to who you are as you change and as
your values change as well. The other big one for me,
I think about this a lot. I think our jobs
are one of the biggest time consumers in our lives,
probably second only to sleep, and so not being happy
(08:19):
with what you do for a living, with what you
do every day for eight hours can suck a lot
of life out of everything else you do. Think it
can be an incredible source of stress and tension. I
used to do when I was doing working in a
call center. I would do mental health reviews and interviews
for the government. And it was just eight hours of
(08:43):
asking people about the worst and harness points in their life,
day in and day out, and it made me so
miserable and I didn't want to go to work. I
would call in sick all the time. What do you
think of some of the signs that we actually really
do need to contemplate a change. It's not because we
want to do something that's more in line without values.
(09:04):
It's because now we seriously need to we seriously need
to make a shift.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
To you. Yeah, I feel like your body usually tells
you it whether you want to listen or not.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So I had this person I interviewed once and she said,
your body will give you clues, and the clues get
louder when you don't pay attention to them. So, you know,
a toxic workplace can impact you in a whole variety
of ways. But if you kind of keep going up
the scale, eventually it's like you know, people can experience
like autoimmune disorders and they're like where did I get this?
(09:36):
And you're like, oh, well, you've been extremely stressed for
the last two years, and like, okay, your body is
responding to that.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I think there's a lot of like little signs of
people always want to know, like is it me?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Is it the job? You know?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
One of the things I do think is important to
think about is like you take yourself wherever you go.
So the first thing I would do of like if
you're recognizing that is like, do some some of your
own works, you know, work the therapist, do some journaling exercises,
like some of these things that we talk about actually
do work, you know, having moments of mindfulness, disconnecting, like
don't doom scroll, you know, start with some of those things,
(10:11):
because those are the things you can control.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Maybe.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Also, the other thing I find for people is like
sometimes they can't quite identify what it is that about work.
You know, yours is obviously very obvious. Sometimes you're lucky
and it is really obvious, and other times it's like
you're being gaslighted by a boss who you don't quite
understand that behavior. So education can help a lot with
that too, sort of educating yourself about toxic workplaces, manipulative bosses,
(10:37):
you know, and start to kind of recognize those things
because sometimes there's things that you can control, but we
can't always control other people's actions.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
The other thing.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
About boundaries I always think about is like when you
think of a boundary, you're like, no emails after five pm,
and you're almost like you're expecting your boss to not
do that, But really the boundary is something that you
set more for yourself, almost like a limit your setting
for yourself. So it's like, no, I'm not going to
respond to emails after five pm. I can't control that
they send the emails after five pm, but that's what
I'm going to do. So those are all kind of
(11:09):
little tips I would say to things to start with.
If you're doing all those things and or you just
know this is not what I want to do, I'm
so unhappy. I'm miserable. Look I'm not a person who
would just naturally say, like, just quit your job and
find something else. I would be a person who said,
because and look, not everyone has that privilege. I was
in a job that I absolutely hated. I cried in
(11:31):
the bathroom. I got asked one day to feed paper
through a printer, and I was like, they have to
be kidding. This is like literally what this machine does,
Like what do you mean I have to put paper
one by one into the printer.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I was so miserable.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
And the thing that helped me get clarity, and I
think was like more of a positive outlet than just
quitting my job, was I started having informational interviews with people.
I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found
another friend who was also a job searching and we
connected once a week and we were setting many goals
and you know, having informational interviews. That job was never
(12:06):
going to be the job for me, and looking back,
there were so many parts about it that didn't align
with my values and why I didn't love it, But
I wasn't going to change that workplace. So instead I
was like, what are some of the things I can control?
Because I didn't have the ability to quit my job
and focus on those things full time. But what I
found is I was on cloud nine just by engaging
in some of these things that made me feel like
(12:26):
there was hope that I wasn't going to be working
in this job forever that I hated. So that's at
least been my experience. Now, if you have the ability to,
like you've got some savings or you have you know,
some side skill that you can monetize and do some
freelancing or side hustle or whatnot, and you are able
to quit your job, then maybe you quit your job
because you're like, it's actually doing more harm for me
(12:46):
to show up and keep doing this than it is
for me to quit, and you know, make other sacrifices
in other places So there's a great book called Essentialism
and it's all about focus and one of the things
he talks about is life is full of trade offs.
And I think that's really important because not everything can
be a priority, Not everything can.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Be your number one. So what are you willing to
trade off?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
You know, are you willing to trade off, you know,
the salary of this job that you hate to you know,
take a bridge, a couple bridge jobs and look for
a new job on the side, you know, or are
you able to say, like, hey, I can stay here
and kind of like decompartmentalize, like this job is not
for me, I won't be here forever, and here are
all the things I'm doing to take action to get
(13:30):
myself out of here. So those are just some of
the things that come to mind when I think of
like when people are trying to decide should I stay
or shit go? It really depends on your situation, you know.
You you have to know what your financial runway is.
You have to know And those are very empowering things too.
You should know like, well, okay, don't have three months
of you know, the average job search right now is
(13:51):
taking about five months, maybe even a little bit longer
because it's it's a very tough job market out there.
So for example, if you still have a job, you
might say I'm not going to quit because it's tough.
Like so you have to take into account your own
situation and some realities of what's happening, and then make
a strategy based on that. The goodness about the strategies,
you can tweak it, you can refine it as you're
(14:11):
going along. And like I said, I think a huge
piece of this is also finding some community. Find a
friend who's also job searching, find you know, a community
of people who are focused on this stuff, because it
will make you feel less alone. And it's one of
the most important things when you are thinking about making
a transition is talking to people who have been there
and done that or are going through it with you
(14:33):
because they can relate.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think community is such an antidote to
so many things. Yeah, you, and you made such a
good point, Like I think, obviously this is a podcast
about psychology, and I think prioritizing your mental health is
number one. Really, Like, if their job is seriously causing
you to feel mentally unwell, I think it's hard to
(14:59):
not be like well, you you should just quit and
you should just like get out of there because it's
gonna cost you a lot more. And just like mental energy,
emotional energy time to recover from that emotional experience. And
I think obviously our mental health is like the most
valuable resource that we have other than maybe like physical health.
(15:20):
But it's also, like you said, it's really important to
be realistic and to give yourself hope whilst you're still
in that situation. Right, Like, I think hope is such
like a psychologically powerful emotion. I don't think I'm the
first person to figure that out, but like it is,
it is so so powerful to keep you optimistic, to
(15:43):
keep you know, your spirits high, to keep you motivated,
even whilst your environment and the job you're currently working
is perhaps really terrible and you're miserable and it's awful.
The other thing that I wanted to say to that
is I had someone on the show who said, sometimes
we change our external environment because there's something internally that
(16:06):
we want to change. So it's an interesting thing when
we talk about changing careers in our twenties because obviously,
in one hand, I'm like, yes, absolutely take the risk
to anything you can to try out a new version
of you that you think you might be happier in.
But I sometimes see cases whereby people continuously change their
careers because they're using their careers as a proxy for
(16:28):
something else that's wrong in their life.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Totally, it's easier sometimes to change your career than to
do deep internal work right. And also I think it
feels like a tangible thing sometimes, like your job title,
your company, your boss, Like the external environment feels very tangible.
What I have found about psychology and internal work is
(16:50):
like that feels sometimes a little elusive, you know, like
you can't quite hold that feeling in your hand even
though you feel it. You know, it's like why psycho
just will be like name the emotion. You're like, I can't,
and you're like, okay, well step one, we got to
put some words to this sometimes, you know. So I
would agree with that absolutely. I think that's why I
say you take yourself wherever you go. So if you
(17:12):
don't do that work, you take and I don't want
to say baggage, but you take that to the next place.
And you kind of collect these experiences and keep thinking
why aren't they changing? And you're like, but you only
have control of yourself too. So it is it is
like the guests who said that, I completely understand, and
(17:33):
I think I see this a lot in job hopping,
where people will job hop and they'll say, well, I'm
doing it because I want to get a higher salary,
and you're if you like peel back all the layers,
they're actually doing it because they like are afraid, like
they have massive imposter syndrome and they're afraid that the
current company is going to realize they're not actually worth
(17:55):
what they paid for them or like whatever, like a
thing like that, and you're like, oh, okay, well this
is actually not about job hopping for like salary and
career advancement. This is this is a different thing altogether.
So I absolutely do see that as well.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
The other factor here that I was thinking about as
well is burnout. Like if you were if you were
mentally so burnt out that you can't function at your job.
I understand, if I understand in some cases, like if
you're working as a nurse and working crazy hours and
then you transition to like an admin job, perhaps that
would be better. But if you're burnt out, it does
not just take like a like a career change to
(18:33):
solve that, nor does it take like quitting a job
for it to go away like that. Burnout is like
a deep emotional and physical state that needs to be
addressed at a more holistic level. You might feel momentarily
refreshed by changing careers or changing more so in this area,
(18:53):
like changing jobs, but it's going to come back really
really quickly if you don't establish like proper boundaries. And
I think that's likely another huge thing that maybe before
you choose to change careers, you see what else is
available to you in the current career and see whether
there is room for you to be promoted, whether there
(19:15):
is room for you to grow, whether there is room
for you to upskill in some way, or whether there
is room for you to just take like a long holiday,
like a long paid vacation, which I know I'm saying
this from a point of like I'm in Australia and
that is we have long term paid leave, So I
don't know if you guys have that.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
No, the US is like I'm having heart surgery. I'll
be delayed responding to your email. You know, our view
on work is very unhealthy over here. But one thing
I was going to say about your comment about burnout.
This is what I have found. You can be working
crazy long hours but be really motivated and energized by
what you're working on and you're not burnt out. I
(19:56):
actually don't think burnout is always correlated to number of
and whatnot. I think burnout is actually more correlated to
the impact and the purpose. So, for example, if you
understand the impact that your work has on the company,
the team, the product, the customers, whatever, I think that's
much more energizing and keeps you from burning out because
(20:20):
you understand your bigger impact. When I do this thing,
here's how it adds to the bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
When you are.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Working crazy and you're just doing a ton of busy
work and you feel like this work doesn't matter, nobody
cares about this work, guess what that is going to
lead to burnout very quickly. It's a one way ticket
to burn out in the sense of like sometimes I
think it's more about the impact that your work is making.
Because us as humans, part of our well being is
(20:47):
that purpose piece. It's wanting to make an impact. It's
why you know Trust Fund Babies. You can sit on
a beach all day long, don't you know, they don't
they It's like it's not there's a piece of your
well being that wants to contribute and make an impact
and be working on something that matters to you. And
I think that especially when you're younger in your career. Look,
(21:10):
you're not going to be given like some major big
project or this, like you're gonna be asked to do
some grunt work. But like a way that you can
rephrase this, Like I remember I got this advice early
on that I really liked, and it was it was
swallow the frog, and it's kind of like one of
those greatest hacks, and I think it's helpful to learn
it early on in your career is observe your boss,
(21:32):
you know, figure out what they hate doing, and then
learn how to do it and take it off their plate,
Like can you you know, My point being is like
sometimes early on in your career, nobody's going.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
To come to you and say, do this thing.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
It will make a big impact in my day and
therefore in your career. But you can, you know, job
titles are just to start, you know, thinking about thinking
outside the box of your job description and your job
title and thinking about okay, what thing does my boss
hate but it matters to them? Could I learn it
and take it off their plate? And therefore, instead of
(22:04):
doing these tasks that I feel like are busy work,
I'm doing something that's truly helping and making a difference there.
And that's just an example of like sometimes when you're
younger in your career or earlier on in your career,
there are some limitations, Right, You're not going to be
able to like take over that client or something like that,
but maybe you can do something.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
To help support that.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
So I say that because you know, I'm not trying
to say, oh, your job description doesn't matter and you
should take on all this extra work. I don't mean
it like that, but it's like, where can you not
just be the indispensable person at work where you work
really hard and you know you're doing all the things.
How can you be the invaluable person at work? What
(22:45):
things really matter on this team? And I think that
will help one grow your career, give you some more
insights into like you know, what lessons and tools and
skills are you learning to add value, but also kind
of combating that burnout as well. So I think that's
one of the things I find, just especially early on
in your career, is like you can't look at it
(23:08):
as black and white as it is, even though it
feels that way. And that's what I was meaning about,
like one plus one doesn't always equal to and you're right,
it could equal four, but I think oftentimes people are
just frusht at because one plus one isn't even equally
too for them when it comes to like they're like
they're like, I got the job title and I got this,
saying why am I not fulfilled? Like I thought the
key to you know, career success and career fulfillment was
(23:31):
as simple as like finding the right job at the
right company, and I worked really hard to get that way,
and that probably goes back to a bigger picture. But
this is also why I get frustrated with the terminology
like dream job.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Do not do not talk to me about this. I
hate that term. I literally did a whole episode like
the myth of the dream job. I was like, there's
no dream job. Don't let them tell you that.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, there's no job, and what it is it's like
this pumped up lifestyle version and that that's a problem
because also similar to a partner who is not going
to check every box of your life. A job and
a career is also not going to do that. So
we were talking about not dealing with your internal stuff.
Some people are looking for that. They're looking for this
(24:13):
job that will like check all these boxes, and then
they're so disappointed when they get there and they're like,
it's not what I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And it's like, but maybe we need to peel.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
This back and realize that your expectations of what you
think a job should be and what it owes you
and whatever is unrealistic, and so you're on this constant
cycle of yes that the myth is what's keeping you
stuck and unfulfilled more than any more than any job
or boss or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Is Yeah, I totally agree. And I have a friend
who talks about this a lot. And she is someone
who just like she hates the idea of a dream
job for the reason that her purpose is never gonna
lie in what she's getting paid to do, Like this
is just something like the thing that she loves the
most in the world is not something she will ever
(24:58):
get paid to do, and so it's it's just really
interesting to her to hear from her and her being like,
I don't care where I work, I still have purpose.
I'm not gonna I'm not looking for my job to
fulfill me one hundred percent. Like that is not my
job's job, you know what I mean. Like, that's not
what I'm doing this for. I'm doing this for a
paycheck and other thing that I absolutely love. How you
(25:21):
referred to relationships as well, there's the ninety ten rule,
which says that a lot of the time people throw
away a relationship that is ninety percent fulfilling because they
are missing their ten percent, and then they find someone
who is the ten percent and that doesn't last because
they're like, actually, this is just like all the things
I may have wanted, but it sucks. And I find
(25:41):
that in careers as well, and as someone who is
h I'm about to completely like double cross myself be
a hypocrite as someone who's working their dream job, like
basically at this point, like this is the best job
I could ever hope for. There are still times when
it really sucks and I think about going back. If
I think about like going back to do hospital or
(26:02):
just something or something else, because it's not secure, it's
there's just so many other factors that you give up, right,
it's the trade off as well. I feel like we're
just talking, We're talking through so many hypotheticals here. I
want to ask you, like a very pointed question. Now,
what do you have What kind of advice do you
have for someone who wants to change careers but it's
(26:24):
concerned about starting over financially and you said it's taking
five months. I don't have five months of savings. How
do we probably prepare for that change?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah? Well, I think a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
One always be job searching in the in a way
where and what I mean by that is you should
always be thinking about your personal and professional brand upskilling networking.
Networking is not just with people you know. It can
also be networking within your company, building relationships with people
at work. Also networking, especially if you do want to
(26:59):
make a career transition. When I often tell people is like, well,
the people in your current network probably aren't going to
be able to help you get to this new place
because they're part of your old place. So you need
to find what I call bridge connections. You know, So
if you are and here's the thing, you're not necessarily
starting over. But would you be removing a like the
security of a paycheck if you were to say I'm
(27:22):
going to quit my job and then find a new job,
or probably more more likely scenario is I was laid
off and now I need to find a new job
right So, because most people, I think in this job market,
if they want to switch jobs, they're probably going to
keep their current job while they're searching. So let's just
go with like you were laid off, you were fired,
or you don't have a job right now and you
want to find something now.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
There is no.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Harm in taking a quote bridge job to create some
income for yourself and have that as a trade off
while you are job searching. Nothing about taking you know,
the grocery store job or the job at the at
target means that you're there forever right like your one
move does not dictate the rest of your life. And
also I would say like for someone who was a recruiter,
(28:06):
I would actually be very impressed to be like, Okay,
you haven't had you've been job searching for four months,
what have you been doing with your time?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
You're gonna get asked a question like that.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And so by being able to say, like, you know,
I walked dogs for the neighborhood, I took on babysitting,
I did some freelancing of this and that that shows
me that you have drive and you take initiative, and
that you're hungry for something new. So, you know, being
open about I'm making a career change, I'm doing something different,
I think is like and then connecting it to all
(28:36):
the cool things that you're doing to get there, I
think is great. The other thing, if you wanted to
make a career transition right now, or you were job searching,
I think one of the best things you can do
is go have informational interviews with people who are doing
the job at ideally the company you want to work at.
So can you learn from these informational interviews what the
job is like there, maybe what skills gaps that you have.
(29:00):
Who do they hire, why do they hire them, what
do they look for and to hire? What did they
like about the culture. One of the things when I
was working as an admin assistant, hated my job and
I really wanted to become a recruiter. I started having
informational interviews with recruiters. Now, none of those informational interviews
led me to a referral for a job. But what
they did do is when I did get my job
(29:21):
interview at Hulu for recruiting, I was able to tell them,
I know, I don't have prior quote quie, you know, recruiting.
I don't have quote prior recruiting experience. But what I
do have is I've had thirty informational interviews with recruiters
and I've learned this and this and this about recruiting,
and here's how my experience, my transferable skills actually are
a really good fit. So, for example, in recruiting, you
(29:44):
guys care a lot about candidate experience. And I know
this part's really important. I don't have candidates, but I
work with students. Students are my candidates, and here's how.
And so I'm speaking the same language that they might
be doing in an interview and for the person on
the other end, And I know this for a fact.
I got their job at Hulu obviously because I was
the most experienced, but definitely because I wanted the job
the most and I was, you know, going above and beyond.
(30:06):
So do not let your prior or experience or education
or anything like that stop you from the thing that
you want to do. Part of it is creating a
game plan of how are we going to connect the
dots from where you are right now to where you're
going to go next. And like I said, bridge jobs
are totally appropriate, but we still want to be able
to have this informational interviews. Can you know, listen to podcasts,
(30:28):
watch online courses about you know, you want to be
a community manager, what do they do, and then see
if you can start to you know, tailor your resume
and tailor your LinkedIn profile and taylor your networking experience
or what you talk about the story that you tell
people about yourself and your experience so that it's going
to be very relevant to them. I have this quote
(30:51):
that I heard someone say that I love, which is
show the ten percent of you that is one hundred
percent relevant to them. You know, they don't need to
know your whole life story. They need to know, like
what part of you is going to be really important
for them to know if you're transitioning careers. It's not
I quit my job where I got laid off. The
point is I am really excited about online marketing and
(31:12):
here's what I've been doing to connect the dots between
what I was doing before and why I want to
get into and start in online marketing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
That enthusiasm factor is massive. It is so massive, because
we were just talking about it, sometimes people who have
who have slided into this career and maybe burnt out
and stuck and not going to bring that same level
of freshness and newness that people like so desperately want.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, it's like you can teach skills, you can't teach attitude,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Oh yeah, and you can't like breathe new life into
someone like if you know what I mean, like you
kind of have to cut Yeah. I just think that's
such a it's actually such an asset. Probably one of
the reasons you got hired at Hullo as well, what
you just said, it's because you was you wanted it
the most, and they knew that you were going to
bring that into that job. Another thing that one of
my friends recently had an experience like that, and she
(32:07):
has since found a much better job in a much
different field, and it's like a huge success story of
what we're talking about. And some of the things she
did in the meantime was she taught herself a new skill.
She taught herself how to be really really good at Excel,
which is super random. I think if you've ever worked
a corporate job, you know how valuable XL is. Like
(32:29):
I still know how to do all my functions from
when I was a consultant, Like it's so valuable. Another
one is like audio editing or learning how to do
design work. She taught herself a new skill, and she
also made her own project for her while she was
job hunting. I always think about what's that man's name,
(32:51):
that famous man, Matt Damon. I always think about Matt
Damon and Ben Affleck and how they weren't getting hired
for jobs and they weren't getting like acting gigs, and
so they just were like, fuck it, I'm gonna write
my own script. And sometimes you need to do that. Obviously,
it's not maybe won't make you into a quadruple millionaire
that they are now, but just being like, oh, whilst
(33:11):
I was, you know, unemployed, I like started my own business,
like doing reorganizing, or I started my own business like
selling online content, like or help as like a social
media manager. Like small things like that that show once
again that you have initiative, but also give you a
new skill for you to bring into this new career.
(33:33):
You know. I think it's a misconception that to change
careers you suddenly you need to go back to school
or you need to get a whole new degree. Can
you talk about that a bit. I think that's like
a huge one that I come across a lot.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I think that's why the informational interviews are so valuable
because you can ask them, you know, would you hire
someone who can you know, has learned these skills via
online learning and on the job and through real experience,
or do you prefer to see additional education And they'll
probably tell you real life learning of the skills is
more valuable to me than however many degrees you have. Now,
(34:07):
it always depends on what it is that you're doing.
If you want to be a doctor, we need you
to go through med school, you know. But I think
it's I would not drop kick to paying for, you know,
additional education before I've exhausted all my free options and
the ability to like for myself to test out and
experiment and build things, And I would start there first
(34:31):
one hundred times over.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's really interesting because I actually when you say, like lived,
experience is better. I have a politics degree, and I
have a philosophy degree and an economics degree. Do I
use those? No? No, So, like if someone if I
was to walk into like a position for an economist
and be like, oh, yeah, I have a degree, but
(34:53):
I've never done anything like this ever before, I really
could probably only apply my knowledge of UNI and that
was years ago.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, I mean, experience is always going to speak much
louder than degrees and words, you know. I think, you know,
for a lot of people, having the college degree is
like kind of that first step. But even now today,
like I mean, my kids are really young, but if
my kids get ready to go to college, I'm probably
going to ask them, well, what are you studying?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Is there?
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Because you might not even need to go to university
at some point, you know, you might be able to
learn everything via on the job learning and through you
can literally pretty much learn anything via YouTube videos if
you really wanted to, or TikTok videos at this point,
you know, so, I absolutely, especially for the advanced degree thing.
I'm always hesitant to ever give the advice of like, yeah,
(35:42):
go and pay for this thing.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Now.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Some people are like, I need the accountability. I need
to be able to show up in person. You're that
you're talking about something a little different. You could hire
a career coach to help you and work with you.
That would be a lot cheaper than going through an
academic program.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Oh absolutely, Especially I find this a lot with my
friends who are like they've reached kind of like a
plateau at like twenty five, twenty six, and a lot
of them are like, I'm going to go do my
masters because in Australia, like the government pays like, yeah,
it's a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
The government pays your alone for you, and it's just
like it it's just like almost like a limbo point.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
It's like taking a bridge job.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
You know, you're like bridging between wherever you're going to go.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Next, and you're going to buy time.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
And I will say there are plenty of people in
the US that they just pay for it, which is
not the best idea, but where they enroll in the
master's program because they're like, I'm not totally sure what
i want to do, and I'm gonna kind of buy
some time doing something productive. And so many of us,
when you're in your twenties, the thing you know, more
than work is school. You know, you've been a student
way longer than you've been in a worker.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, and especially when you're sold this very traditional path
of like more education equals more opportunities, Like I don't
necessarily think that's the case anymore, actually, And I think
also I've been reading lots of articles about people being
like actually, like like you said with your kids, like
it's a waste of money. It's a waste of money
(37:09):
for what I want to get into. Turning back to
someone who is at that turning point, at that crossroads,
ready to change, totally, ready to find a new job,
ready to try whatever it takes to shift to this
new path. What are some of the key challenges you
think they might encounter and how can they be prepared
for them so that when they happen they're not terrifying
(37:31):
and cause them to retreat. What are some of the
key challenges you think they might encounter and how can
they be prepared for them so that when they happen,
they're not terrifying and cause them to retreat.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Yeah, Amil will just say rejection is part of the process, right,
So you're going to apply for jobs and not get them.
You're going to have interviews that don't go well, you know,
I You're going to have informational interviews where you reach
out on the person never gets back to you, never
get to have it. So you know, part of this
is trying to figure out what parts of this process
can I control and what parts do I not have
(38:08):
control over?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And also.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Not giving up because you had one bad moment. Like
I joke that like if your resume got rejected, let's
say they're spending it seven seconds on average looking at
your resume. That's if they even did look at your resume,
Like that can't be taken as a personal.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Rejection, and Okay, you should give up.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Because what does that person know, right, they spent seven
seconds looking over something.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
But there are some.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Tips that you can do that give you a better chance, like,
for example, creating a really great master resume and then
tailoring that resume for each job that you apply for.
That is something that is totally in your control. People
always ask how do I tailor it? You're going to
tailor it based on what the job description and the
company are looking for, so you're able to take your
experience and how can you again take those transferable skills
(38:55):
and make them work for what that company needs. Now,
can you, when you apply for a job, go back
to that informational interview that you had at that job
and say, I recently applied for this job. Would you
be able to refer me? Can I send my resume
to you and you send it to a hiring manager.
That's within your control. You're able to send you know,
prep really well before an interview by researching the company,
(39:16):
researching who you're going to interview with, sending a thank
you note after. Those are things that you can control.
You can have a practice interview with your best friend,
your mom, your career coach, whoever. Those are things that
you can control. I think that focusing on what you
can control versus, you know, letting one thing kind of
(39:36):
fall out of place and then it kind of takes
everything down for you. It's not it's like an overall
lesson in life is like that's not going to go
very well because stuff happens and you have to be
able to adapt and go a plan B. The other
thing I always tell people, I'm like, there's no one
right way to job search, so like apply to jobs online,
you know, cold apply to jobs online also as your network,
(39:59):
you know, create sample projects of like if the job
you're applying to is a social media manager, create a
fake social media account for them, or show real graphics
of the content you would create if you were to
get hired there, Like you have the ability to put
your best foot forward and control those things. Now, there
are so many reasons why people do and do not
(40:19):
get jobs, and we can't always control those, and you know,
it's humans making decisions about other humans.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So that's why I say that.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
And one of the worst things that can happen in
a job search, and I see it happen all the time,
is like people don't start getting traction, so then they
start to like really kind of lose faith and hope
in their own abilities. And it's kind of like this
insecurity and negativity, you know, imposter syndrome versus a growth
mindset sometimes is a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
The growth mindset is the person who says, I'm going
to get there and I trust in my ability to
learn and adapt and keep going and be resilient, and
the imposter syndrome person is, well, you're not getting jobs
because you know you're not that good about you don't
really know what you're doing anyways, Like this is a
long shot anyways, And so being able to manage those
(41:07):
thoughts is also really important in a huge life skill.
So that's why I've always been a big fan of, like,
find another friend who's job searching with you so you
can share this stuff so that they can be your
hype woman when you need to, and vice versa. I
think all of that is really important in job searches.
There's a lot of moving parts that happen with it.
So yeah, and then the other thing is do not
(41:29):
forget about the power of LinkedIn, having an optimized profile,
networking with people on LinkedIn, leaving engaged comments. I just
did an entire podcast episode about the power of LinkedIn comments,
and that's something you have control over, you know. So
I like to shift people back to the things that
you can control versus the things you can't control. The
other thing I would say is if you're in that
(41:51):
part is think about the companies that you want to
apply for.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
So sometimes it's a little.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
Scary to be like I'm just going to apply to
any job that comes at me that I'm in rested. Yeah,
and so one of the things I've always been a
fan of and I'm not saying this is the only way,
but sometimes I feel like it can narrow it down
a little bit for you if you're feeling overwhelmed by saying, Okay,
let's just focus on what are your target companies? Why
are they your target companies? Do you only want to
work for remote companies? Do you only want to work
(42:16):
for companies whose products you're obsessed with?
Speaker 3 (42:20):
You know?
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Do you only want to work for companies that are
on the best Companies to work for lists? You know
that kind of thing, like you look, no one's like
double checking your work, So it can be for any reason.
It can be that they have a bigger, longer vacation policy.
I don't really care. My point being is like, get
some clarity over why this company interests you, and can
you dive a little deeper to learn about it? And
(42:43):
you know, learn about the company, Listen to the podcasts
with their leaders, see if they have earning calls that
you can check in with. Do they have events that
you can go to or online events? Can you follow
them on social media? You know, all of those things
add up.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Also, Yeah, I ars agree, it's about I think it's
just like having an exploratory mindset and one that's like
one of abundance and being like, I'm going to get
this job, and I'm going to show them that I
want this job, and I'm going to keep all my
doors open, can I I'm going to finish up by
asking you one more question, maybe two, maybe two, And
(43:22):
what advice would you give for someone who's taking in
a less conventional career path who wants to do something
that's like not necessarily a job that you can apply
for through LinkedIn or through seek. I'm thinking people normally
like in creative jobs, photographers, people who want to start
(43:43):
their own businesses, podcasters, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Yeah, I think for anybody who's starting something that maybe
isn't like a job that you apply to online, like
just get started. You know, my very first podcast episode
is not as good as the podcast episode I have today,
But thank goodness, I started and I started practicing, you know,
and I just got out there. I recently started creating
content on LinkedIn, and I was like, oh my god,
(44:08):
my first like five posts are not that good. I
didn't understand like the best way to like write your
content and format it on LinkedIn, and guess what, I
keep doing it every day, not because I love having
one more thing to do, but because I want to
get better at it. So if you are, you know,
building your own brand or your own business, something to
think about is like just get started and then by
(44:30):
starting you will start to iron out some of the wrinkles.
Connect with other people who are doing the stuff that
you want to do, because they will be your best
teachers and advocates and people you can go to. The
other thing, I guess is probably on the financial same
way as like how are you going to make money?
You know, like if you're going to be a photographer,
like how are you planning on charging people? What are
(44:53):
your packages? Like laying stuff out versus being a little
loosey goosey. I think people like to have options, too
many options, you know, and then also making it easy
for them to make those decisions and personal branding slash
you know, marketing, I guess is a big piece of
all of that. You know, if you're going to be
a podcaster, how are you going to get people to
listen to your show?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You know?
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Are you just going to build it and then hope
that they come. They probably won't you know, So are
you going to also start sharing it on LinkedIn? Are
you going to start an Instagram channel on TikTok? Are
you going to recycle the content?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
So?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know?
Speaker 4 (45:29):
As a content creator today, I don't. I didn't go
to school to become a content creator, but I learned
by doing and watching other people, reading their blog posts,
you know, and just iterating along the way too. I
think if you're doing a less traditional career path, it's
something more creative. It just requires you to not just
(45:49):
do that thing. You also probably are going to have
to be like, for example, you're a podcast, you own
a business. You understand you don't just get to podcast
some days. You also have to think about like taxes
and payroll or you know that kind of stuff. So
just something to think about is that, you know, running
a business is a whole other set of skills besides
just that. I think a lot of people start running
(46:09):
a business because they're like, I really love photography. Well,
there are probably other career paths that you can do
that include photography, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you
have to start your own business. I think I'm also
sensitive to this because I think for a while at
least my generation, the millennial women generation, I think we
were constantly told if work isn't working for you, just
(46:30):
become your own boss, become a quote girl boss. And
I don't think that's the answer for everybody either. So
I think that for some people, entrepreneurship is a great
path and for some people it's like I'm very creative
and I like to create, but I really want the security,
and no job is providing you one hundred percent security,
But like, I want to do it on a larger
(46:51):
scale for a bigger company. You know, I want to
go work for CANBA where I'm helping do design work
or something like that. So just something to think about
is like, also, who are you as a person? Entrepreneurship
comes with high highs, low lows, uncertainty. It's not that
a corporate career doesn't come with that. It comes with
its own slew of things. You know, the grass is
not greener anywhere. And I had this woman on the
(47:13):
podcast who was like, the grass is green wherever you
water it, And it's like, yeah, so where do you
want to invest your time and energy? You know, because
wherever you are, you're gonna be watering the grass.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
You have to.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And you know what, I will say this about working
for yourself, being an entrepreneur, starting your own business, whatever
it is, you have to love what you're doing one
hundred and fifty percent, maybe even two hundred percent, because
when you start doing it for yourself, you're gonna love
it a lot less because you will suddenly have to
deal with a lot of things that you didn't want
(47:45):
to deal with. The one for me is like, yeah,
obviously it's just like admin and taxes and talking to
my lawyer and like things like that. And then it's
also like receiving negative comments and doing social media. Like
I did not start a podcast thinking that I would
have to do social media as much as I did
as I do. It's like such a hassle and like
(48:07):
I didn't go to school for that either. So I
think it is about exactly The perfect place to end
is exactly as you said, the grass is greenest where
you water it. And I honestly think that you can
be watering two lawns at once, waiting to shift over
to that second lawn over there and let the other
one die off. But it's like all about being realistic
(48:30):
about like what you can achieve and in what timeframe
that's my I'm gonna say that as a final piece
of advice, like you don't have to have it all
sorted out in the next six months. There's always a
sense of like huge, massive urgency in our twenties to
get everything instantly. Sometimes it's gonna take a little bit longer,
but it's still gonna be worth it in the end. Look,
that's a beautiful place to end. I want to say
thank you so much Lauren for coming on. Honestly, I
(48:53):
was taking notes. I think you could say of like
your advice, being like, oh yep, we gotta take that,
gonna pass that on, like it is genuinely so so useful,
so practical. If you want to hear more from Lauren,
you should go and follow the Career Contesta podcast with
Dear Media. I've actually listened to a few episodes, and
(49:13):
you know what it's I love when shows actually give
you practical things to do.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yeah, that's pretty much what we do all the time.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
You know, career advice delivered an actual bite size like
do this, do that. I found that again, career advice
can sometimes be a little abstract, and people like tangible.
They need that in order to move forward, So that's.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
What we do. Yeah, it's really really useful if you're
thinking about changing careers again. I will leave all of
Lauren's links and career Contesta links in the description of
this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you
enjoyed it, please feel free to share with someone else
who might get something out of this episode and leave
a five star review. You can also follow us at
(49:54):
that Psychology podcast if you have some feedback, something to
say about this episode, further questions, or of course, an
episode's suggestion. We always love to hear from you, and
we will be back next week with another episode.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast, New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, it is so great to
have you here. Back for another episode as we break
down the psychology of our twenties. A bit of a
universal truth about this decade is that nothing is set
in stone.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
This is obviously one of the major periods in our
life for exploration for change, and that includes the jobs
we work and our career path. I think in the past,
our careers were very much mapped out for us. Restricted
we chose one career path and it kind of followed
us through life. And nowadays we have a lot more
(01:07):
freedom and capacity for change, and I think it's really
valuable to discuss how we could make that scary transition
from one career to another, facing things like financial uncertainty,
job in security during this decade and making that decision
because either we are unhappy with where we are or
we're just looking for something different, something more fulfilling more us,
(01:31):
or maybe there's been a factor beyond out control, getting
fired for example, or just being burnt out. I think honestly,
our twenties are the best time for this change, and
it might feel really scary to start from scratch. You
might not even know where to begin. But that is
where our amazing guest comes in. We thought we might
bring on an expert, the founder of carea Contessa, Lauren,
(01:54):
to took us through exactly how we can kind of
change careers in our twenties and be sure of our decisions. Lauren,
thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Firstly, can you tell us a bit about yourself and
what you do?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and then we'll get to the psychology of it.
So my name is Laura mcgodwin. I'm the founder and
CEO of career Contessa. We are the largest online professional
platform for women in their careers. Anybody can use our site,
but we do, you know, mostly tailor our advice and
content for women and because women's careers are different, being
a woman in the workplace is different. And really what
(02:30):
we do is we help people, you know, get hired,
get paid, advance at work, build these fulfilling careers and
the reality and kind of where the psychology piece of
this kind of probably comes into is that mindset of
like there's no one career for anybody, you know, there's
not like linear career paths. One plus one doesn't always
equal to in your careers. And so what I set
(02:50):
out to create was this resource that wasn't just a
job site, which is what a lot of things are.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
They're like get the job and then we're done with you.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
I really wanted a career site that could build and
grow with people as a navigate different transitions and shifts
in their careers. So we did that at Career Contesta.
We have a podcast called Career Cantesta. I have a
book called Power Moves. You know, we have all all
the things so that people can can continue to thrive
in their workplace.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I honestly love that. I wish I'd had a resource
like that when I first like finished university, because the
only thing I really had access to was like seek
and like that was it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Like yeah, I seek in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like the job page of like my university website. So
that is like super super amazing and I think such
a great resource. I also love what you said, where
by one plus one doesn't always equal to when it
comes to our careers.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, it's very frustrating, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
But also it's super it's really frustrating, but then it's
also kind of freeing because sometimes you can equal four
or like five.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, exactly exactly me.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Like I'm thinking about my own kind of path through
my twenties and like their little career dips and turns
that I talk. And I started this decade working hospital.
Then I worked as like in a cool center. Then
I worked as like an interviewer for the government that
I was working as a consultant. Like now I'm here.
I feel like, if that's what the first five years
(04:13):
of my twenties has had for me, the last five
years even more so.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Anyhow, Yes, absolutely, I like your optimistic view on all
things so far.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I'm so glad. I'm so glad, and I feel, yeah,
I feel like it's better to just approach things with
this air of like surely this is this is all
going to turn out Okay.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
It leads to a lot of one of my favorite
quotes is it's this or something better, And it's like,
you know what, because what's the alternative, You're gonna be like,
it was this or my life is over. Like, you know,
you don't want that either, so it's this or something better.
It's kind of been my new motto.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I love Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Absolutely, We're gonna talk about that more on a personal
level later. But one of my first questions for you
is what are some of the common reasons why individuals
people like us in now twenties might consider changing careers.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I mean, it happens for a whole variety of reasons.
It can be that you kind of fell into a career.
So maybe you found a job through your career center
and it wasn't something you really wanted, but it was
better than nothing, and so you kind of were doing
it and all of a sudden you're like, I don't
want to do this the rest of my life. For example,
my very first job at a college MINEU I graduated
during a recession wasn't great. I was an admin assistant
(05:24):
for a university. I didn't want to do that forever
I knew I didn't, and I just sort of needed
the time to. You know, obviously, bills won't pay themselves,
so you sometimes will take a bridge job while you
are working toward wherever you.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Want to go next.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Sometimes it can be that, Okay, I've started working and
I have a huge interest in this other thing, and
I really want to maybe keep doing my job function
but in a different industry. And then you have the
flip side where it's like, I want to stay in
the same industry but do something totally different. I had
a really good friend. We worked on the recruiting team
together at Hulu, and she made in her twenties, she
(05:59):
transitioned from the recruiting team to the marketing team. Now
she has a much bigger career in marketing. It was
that transition that sort of was the first stepping stone.
So I think this happens a lot. I also think
in your twenties, you sort of you don't know what
you don't know, and so one of the beautiful things
about working and just taking something getting out there is
that you start to get introduced to new things and
(06:20):
you start to follow your curiosity. And so there's so
many reasons why people might consider a career pivot, whether
it's I just want to do something different, or I want,
you know, more salary potential. Someone who maybe decided they
wanted to be a teacher and they're like, you know what,
I love this career, but I can't live off of
this salary, So what can I do? So like people,
(06:41):
you know, everyone has their personal reasons it. You know,
it can be I want to work remote, Okay, so
what careers are going to allow you to do that forever?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So I think it all comes down to.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Sort of people having a little bit more clarity about
what they really want or something that really matters a
lot to them, and you kind of it's like you
can't always figure those things out thinking about them. You know,
clarity comes from engagement, not thought. It's not my quote,
that's Maray Folio's. But I love it because you can't
just sit there and think really hard and help that
(07:11):
the answer comes.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
You do have to get out there and start doing.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And I feel like it's such an exercise of like
value realignment because as we go through our twenties, the
values that we held when we first maybe entered the
workplace and we're making career related decisions at like sixteen
and seventeen, like whilst we were still in high school. Yeah,
those values change. Maybe when they were eighteen years old,
(07:36):
you really valued money and you really valued this idea
of I'm going to build all this wealth in my
twenties so that I can relax for the rest of
my life, and you get halfway through that and you
realize this is incredibly unfulfilling and like not a life
that I want to leave. Like I think there are
so many factors that come down to finding something that
(07:57):
aligns to who you are as you change and as
your values change as well. The other big one for me,
I think about this a lot. I think our jobs
are one of the biggest time consumers in our lives,
probably second only to sleep, and so not being happy
(08:19):
with what you do for a living, with what you
do every day for eight hours can suck a lot
of life out of everything else you do. Think it
can be an incredible source of stress and tension. I
used to do when I was doing working in a
call center. I would do mental health reviews and interviews
for the government. And it was just eight hours of
(08:43):
asking people about the worst and harness points in their life,
day in and day out, and it made me so
miserable and I didn't want to go to work. I
would call in sick all the time. What do you
think of some of the signs that we actually really
do need to contemplate a change. It's not because we
want to do something that's more in line without values.
(09:04):
It's because now we seriously need to we seriously need
to make a shift.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
To you. Yeah, I feel like your body usually tells
you it whether you want to listen or not.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So I had this person I interviewed once and she said,
your body will give you clues, and the clues get
louder when you don't pay attention to them. So, you know,
a toxic workplace can impact you in a whole variety
of ways. But if you kind of keep going up
the scale, eventually it's like you know, people can experience
like autoimmune disorders and they're like where did I get this?
(09:36):
And you're like, oh, well, you've been extremely stressed for
the last two years, and like, okay, your body is
responding to that.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I think there's a lot of like little signs of
people always want to know, like is it me?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Is it the job? You know?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
One of the things I do think is important to
think about is like you take yourself wherever you go.
So the first thing I would do of like if
you're recognizing that is like, do some some of your
own works, you know, work the therapist, do some journaling exercises,
like some of these things that we talk about actually
do work, you know, having moments of mindfulness, disconnecting, like
don't doom scroll, you know, start with some of those things,
(10:11):
because those are the things you can control.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Maybe.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Also, the other thing I find for people is like
sometimes they can't quite identify what it is that about work.
You know, yours is obviously very obvious. Sometimes you're lucky
and it is really obvious, and other times it's like
you're being gaslighted by a boss who you don't quite
understand that behavior. So education can help a lot with
that too, sort of educating yourself about toxic workplaces, manipulative bosses,
(10:37):
you know, and start to kind of recognize those things
because sometimes there's things that you can control, but we
can't always control other people's actions.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
The other thing.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
About boundaries I always think about is like when you
think of a boundary, you're like, no emails after five pm,
and you're almost like you're expecting your boss to not
do that, But really the boundary is something that you
set more for yourself, almost like a limit your setting
for yourself. So it's like, no, I'm not going to
respond to emails after five pm. I can't control that
they send the emails after five pm, but that's what
I'm going to do. So those are all kind of
(11:09):
little tips I would say to things to start with.
If you're doing all those things and or you just
know this is not what I want to do, I'm
so unhappy. I'm miserable. Look I'm not a person who
would just naturally say, like, just quit your job and
find something else. I would be a person who said,
because and look, not everyone has that privilege. I was
in a job that I absolutely hated. I cried in
(11:31):
the bathroom. I got asked one day to feed paper
through a printer, and I was like, they have to
be kidding. This is like literally what this machine does,
Like what do you mean I have to put paper
one by one into the printer.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I was so miserable.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
And the thing that helped me get clarity, and I
think was like more of a positive outlet than just
quitting my job, was I started having informational interviews with people.
I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found
another friend who was also a job searching and we
connected once a week and we were setting many goals
and you know, having informational interviews. That job was never
(12:06):
going to be the job for me, and looking back,
there were so many parts about it that didn't align
with my values and why I didn't love it, But
I wasn't going to change that workplace. So instead I
was like, what are some of the things I can control?
Because I didn't have the ability to quit my job
and focus on those things full time. But what I
found is I was on cloud nine just by engaging
in some of these things that made me feel like
(12:26):
there was hope that I wasn't going to be working
in this job forever that I hated. So that's at
least been my experience. Now, if you have the ability to,
like you've got some savings or you have you know,
some side skill that you can monetize and do some
freelancing or side hustle or whatnot, and you are able
to quit your job, then maybe you quit your job
because you're like, it's actually doing more harm for me
(12:46):
to show up and keep doing this than it is
for me to quit, and you know, make other sacrifices
in other places So there's a great book called Essentialism
and it's all about focus and one of the things
he talks about is life is full of trade offs.
And I think that's really important because not everything can
be a priority, Not everything can.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Be your number one. So what are you willing to
trade off?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
You know, are you willing to trade off, you know,
the salary of this job that you hate to you know,
take a bridge, a couple bridge jobs and look for
a new job on the side, you know, or are
you able to say, like, hey, I can stay here
and kind of like decompartmentalize, like this job is not
for me, I won't be here forever, and here are
all the things I'm doing to take action to get
(13:30):
myself out of here. So those are just some of
the things that come to mind when I think of
like when people are trying to decide should I stay
or shit go? It really depends on your situation, you know.
You you have to know what your financial runway is.
You have to know And those are very empowering things too.
You should know like, well, okay, don't have three months
of you know, the average job search right now is
(13:51):
taking about five months, maybe even a little bit longer
because it's it's a very tough job market out there.
So for example, if you still have a job, you
might say I'm not going to quit because it's tough.
Like so you have to take into account your own
situation and some realities of what's happening, and then make
a strategy based on that. The goodness about the strategies,
you can tweak it, you can refine it as you're
(14:11):
going along. And like I said, I think a huge
piece of this is also finding some community. Find a
friend who's also job searching, find you know, a community
of people who are focused on this stuff, because it
will make you feel less alone. And it's one of
the most important things when you are thinking about making
a transition is talking to people who have been there
and done that or are going through it with you
(14:33):
because they can relate.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think community is such an antidote to
so many things. Yeah, you, and you made such a
good point, Like I think, obviously this is a podcast
about psychology, and I think prioritizing your mental health is
number one. Really, Like, if their job is seriously causing
you to feel mentally unwell, I think it's hard to
(14:59):
not be like well, you you should just quit and
you should just like get out of there because it's
gonna cost you a lot more. And just like mental energy,
emotional energy time to recover from that emotional experience. And
I think obviously our mental health is like the most
valuable resource that we have other than maybe like physical health.
(15:20):
But it's also, like you said, it's really important to
be realistic and to give yourself hope whilst you're still
in that situation. Right, Like, I think hope is such
like a psychologically powerful emotion. I don't think I'm the
first person to figure that out, but like it is,
it is so so powerful to keep you optimistic, to
(15:43):
keep you know, your spirits high, to keep you motivated,
even whilst your environment and the job you're currently working
is perhaps really terrible and you're miserable and it's awful.
The other thing that I wanted to say to that
is I had someone on the show who said, sometimes
we change our external environment because there's something internally that
(16:06):
we want to change. So it's an interesting thing when
we talk about changing careers in our twenties because obviously,
in one hand, I'm like, yes, absolutely take the risk
to anything you can to try out a new version
of you that you think you might be happier in.
But I sometimes see cases whereby people continuously change their
careers because they're using their careers as a proxy for
(16:28):
something else that's wrong in their life.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Totally, it's easier sometimes to change your career than to
do deep internal work right. And also I think it
feels like a tangible thing sometimes, like your job title,
your company, your boss, Like the external environment feels very tangible.
What I have found about psychology and internal work is
(16:50):
like that feels sometimes a little elusive, you know, like
you can't quite hold that feeling in your hand even
though you feel it. You know, it's like why psycho
just will be like name the emotion. You're like, I can't,
and you're like, okay, well step one, we got to
put some words to this sometimes, you know. So I
would agree with that absolutely. I think that's why I
say you take yourself wherever you go. So if you
(17:12):
don't do that work, you take and I don't want
to say baggage, but you take that to the next place.
And you kind of collect these experiences and keep thinking
why aren't they changing? And you're like, but you only
have control of yourself too. So it is it is
like the guests who said that, I completely understand, and
(17:33):
I think I see this a lot in job hopping,
where people will job hop and they'll say, well, I'm
doing it because I want to get a higher salary,
and you're if you like peel back all the layers,
they're actually doing it because they like are afraid, like
they have massive imposter syndrome and they're afraid that the
current company is going to realize they're not actually worth
(17:55):
what they paid for them or like whatever, like a
thing like that, and you're like, oh, okay, well this
is actually not about job hopping for like salary and
career advancement. This is this is a different thing altogether.
So I absolutely do see that as well.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
The other factor here that I was thinking about as
well is burnout. Like if you were if you were
mentally so burnt out that you can't function at your job.
I understand, if I understand in some cases, like if
you're working as a nurse and working crazy hours and
then you transition to like an admin job, perhaps that
would be better. But if you're burnt out, it does
not just take like a like a career change to
(18:33):
solve that, nor does it take like quitting a job
for it to go away like that. Burnout is like
a deep emotional and physical state that needs to be
addressed at a more holistic level. You might feel momentarily
refreshed by changing careers or changing more so in this area,
(18:53):
like changing jobs, but it's going to come back really
really quickly if you don't establish like proper boundaries. And
I think that's likely another huge thing that maybe before
you choose to change careers, you see what else is
available to you in the current career and see whether
there is room for you to be promoted, whether there
(19:15):
is room for you to grow, whether there is room
for you to upskill in some way, or whether there
is room for you to just take like a long holiday,
like a long paid vacation, which I know I'm saying
this from a point of like I'm in Australia and
that is we have long term paid leave, So I
don't know if you guys have that.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
No, the US is like I'm having heart surgery. I'll
be delayed responding to your email. You know, our view
on work is very unhealthy over here. But one thing
I was going to say about your comment about burnout.
This is what I have found. You can be working
crazy long hours but be really motivated and energized by
what you're working on and you're not burnt out. I
(19:56):
actually don't think burnout is always correlated to number of
and whatnot. I think burnout is actually more correlated to
the impact and the purpose. So, for example, if you
understand the impact that your work has on the company,
the team, the product, the customers, whatever, I think that's
much more energizing and keeps you from burning out because
(20:20):
you understand your bigger impact. When I do this thing,
here's how it adds to the bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
When you are.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Working crazy and you're just doing a ton of busy
work and you feel like this work doesn't matter, nobody
cares about this work, guess what that is going to
lead to burnout very quickly. It's a one way ticket
to burn out in the sense of like sometimes I
think it's more about the impact that your work is making.
Because us as humans, part of our well being is
(20:47):
that purpose piece. It's wanting to make an impact. It's
why you know Trust Fund Babies. You can sit on
a beach all day long, don't you know, they don't
they It's like it's not there's a piece of your
well being that wants to contribute and make an impact
and be working on something that matters to you. And
I think that especially when you're younger in your career. Look,
(21:10):
you're not going to be given like some major big
project or this, like you're gonna be asked to do
some grunt work. But like a way that you can
rephrase this, Like I remember I got this advice early
on that I really liked, and it was it was
swallow the frog, and it's kind of like one of
those greatest hacks, and I think it's helpful to learn
it early on in your career is observe your boss,
(21:32):
you know, figure out what they hate doing, and then
learn how to do it and take it off their plate,
Like can you you know, My point being is like
sometimes early on in your career, nobody's going.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
To come to you and say, do this thing.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
It will make a big impact in my day and
therefore in your career. But you can, you know, job
titles are just to start, you know, thinking about thinking
outside the box of your job description and your job
title and thinking about okay, what thing does my boss
hate but it matters to them? Could I learn it
and take it off their plate? And therefore, instead of
(22:04):
doing these tasks that I feel like are busy work,
I'm doing something that's truly helping and making a difference there.
And that's just an example of like sometimes when you're
younger in your career or earlier on in your career,
there are some limitations, Right, You're not going to be
able to like take over that client or something like that,
but maybe you can do something.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
To help support that.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
So I say that because you know, I'm not trying
to say, oh, your job description doesn't matter and you
should take on all this extra work. I don't mean
it like that, but it's like, where can you not
just be the indispensable person at work where you work
really hard and you know you're doing all the things.
How can you be the invaluable person at work? What
(22:45):
things really matter on this team? And I think that
will help one grow your career, give you some more
insights into like you know, what lessons and tools and
skills are you learning to add value, but also kind
of combating that burnout as well. So I think that's
one of the things I find, just especially early on
in your career, is like you can't look at it
(23:08):
as black and white as it is, even though it
feels that way. And that's what I was meaning about,
like one plus one doesn't always equal to and you're right,
it could equal four, but I think oftentimes people are
just frusht at because one plus one isn't even equally
too for them when it comes to like they're like
they're like, I got the job title and I got this,
saying why am I not fulfilled? Like I thought the
key to you know, career success and career fulfillment was
(23:31):
as simple as like finding the right job at the
right company, and I worked really hard to get that way,
and that probably goes back to a bigger picture. But
this is also why I get frustrated with the terminology
like dream job.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Do not do not talk to me about this. I
hate that term. I literally did a whole episode like
the myth of the dream job. I was like, there's
no dream job. Don't let them tell you that.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, there's no job, and what it is it's like
this pumped up lifestyle version and that that's a problem
because also similar to a partner who is not going
to check every box of your life. A job and
a career is also not going to do that. So
we were talking about not dealing with your internal stuff.
Some people are looking for that. They're looking for this
(24:13):
job that will like check all these boxes, and then
they're so disappointed when they get there and they're like,
it's not what I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And it's like, but maybe we need to peel.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
This back and realize that your expectations of what you
think a job should be and what it owes you
and whatever is unrealistic, and so you're on this constant
cycle of yes that the myth is what's keeping you
stuck and unfulfilled more than any more than any job
or boss or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Is Yeah, I totally agree. And I have a friend
who talks about this a lot. And she is someone
who just like she hates the idea of a dream
job for the reason that her purpose is never gonna
lie in what she's getting paid to do, Like this
is just something like the thing that she loves the
most in the world is not something she will ever
(24:58):
get paid to do, and so it's it's just really
interesting to her to hear from her and her being like,
I don't care where I work, I still have purpose.
I'm not gonna I'm not looking for my job to
fulfill me one hundred percent. Like that is not my
job's job, you know what I mean. Like, that's not
what I'm doing this for. I'm doing this for a
paycheck and other thing that I absolutely love. How you
(25:21):
referred to relationships as well, there's the ninety ten rule,
which says that a lot of the time people throw
away a relationship that is ninety percent fulfilling because they
are missing their ten percent, and then they find someone
who is the ten percent and that doesn't last because
they're like, actually, this is just like all the things
I may have wanted, but it sucks. And I find
(25:41):
that in careers as well, and as someone who is
h I'm about to completely like double cross myself be
a hypocrite as someone who's working their dream job, like
basically at this point, like this is the best job
I could ever hope for. There are still times when
it really sucks and I think about going back. If
I think about like going back to do hospital or
(26:02):
just something or something else, because it's not secure, it's
there's just so many other factors that you give up, right,
it's the trade off as well. I feel like we're
just talking, We're talking through so many hypotheticals here. I
want to ask you, like a very pointed question. Now,
what do you have What kind of advice do you
have for someone who wants to change careers but it's
(26:24):
concerned about starting over financially and you said it's taking
five months. I don't have five months of savings. How
do we probably prepare for that change?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yeah? Well, I think a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
One always be job searching in the in a way
where and what I mean by that is you should
always be thinking about your personal and professional brand upskilling networking.
Networking is not just with people you know. It can
also be networking within your company, building relationships with people
at work. Also networking, especially if you do want to
(26:59):
make a career transition. When I often tell people is like, well,
the people in your current network probably aren't going to
be able to help you get to this new place
because they're part of your old place. So you need
to find what I call bridge connections. You know, So
if you are and here's the thing, you're not necessarily
starting over. But would you be removing a like the
security of a paycheck if you were to say I'm
(27:22):
going to quit my job and then find a new job,
or probably more more likely scenario is I was laid
off and now I need to find a new job
right So, because most people, I think in this job market,
if they want to switch jobs, they're probably going to
keep their current job while they're searching. So let's just
go with like you were laid off, you were fired,
or you don't have a job right now and you
want to find something now.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
There is no.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Harm in taking a quote bridge job to create some
income for yourself and have that as a trade off
while you are job searching. Nothing about taking you know,
the grocery store job or the job at the at
target means that you're there forever right like your one
move does not dictate the rest of your life. And
also I would say like for someone who was a recruiter,
(28:06):
I would actually be very impressed to be like, Okay,
you haven't had you've been job searching for four months,
what have you been doing with your time?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
You're gonna get asked a question like that.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And so by being able to say, like, you know,
I walked dogs for the neighborhood, I took on babysitting,
I did some freelancing of this and that that shows
me that you have drive and you take initiative, and
that you're hungry for something new. So, you know, being
open about I'm making a career change, I'm doing something different,
I think is like and then connecting it to all
(28:36):
the cool things that you're doing to get there, I
think is great. The other thing, if you wanted to
make a career transition right now, or you were job searching,
I think one of the best things you can do
is go have informational interviews with people who are doing
the job at ideally the company you want to work at.
So can you learn from these informational interviews what the
job is like there, maybe what skills gaps that you have.
(29:00):
Who do they hire, why do they hire them, what
do they look for and to hire? What did they
like about the culture. One of the things when I
was working as an admin assistant, hated my job and
I really wanted to become a recruiter. I started having
informational interviews with recruiters. Now, none of those informational interviews
led me to a referral for a job. But what
they did do is when I did get my job
(29:21):
interview at Hulu for recruiting, I was able to tell them,
I know, I don't have prior quote quie, you know, recruiting.
I don't have quote prior recruiting experience. But what I
do have is I've had thirty informational interviews with recruiters
and I've learned this and this and this about recruiting,
and here's how my experience, my transferable skills actually are
a really good fit. So, for example, in recruiting, you
(29:44):
guys care a lot about candidate experience. And I know
this part's really important. I don't have candidates, but I
work with students. Students are my candidates, and here's how.
And so I'm speaking the same language that they might
be doing in an interview and for the person on
the other end, And I know this for a fact.
I got their job at Hulu obviously because I was
the most experienced, but definitely because I wanted the job
the most and I was, you know, going above and beyond.
(30:06):
So do not let your prior or experience or education
or anything like that stop you from the thing that
you want to do. Part of it is creating a
game plan of how are we going to connect the
dots from where you are right now to where you're
going to go next. And like I said, bridge jobs
are totally appropriate, but we still want to be able
to have this informational interviews. Can you know, listen to podcasts,
(30:28):
watch online courses about you know, you want to be
a community manager, what do they do, and then see
if you can start to you know, tailor your resume
and tailor your LinkedIn profile and taylor your networking experience
or what you talk about the story that you tell
people about yourself and your experience so that it's going
to be very relevant to them. I have this quote
(30:51):
that I heard someone say that I love, which is
show the ten percent of you that is one hundred
percent relevant to them. You know, they don't need to
know your whole life story. They need to know, like
what part of you is going to be really important
for them to know if you're transitioning careers. It's not
I quit my job where I got laid off. The
point is I am really excited about online marketing and
(31:12):
here's what I've been doing to connect the dots between
what I was doing before and why I want to
get into and start in online marketing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
That enthusiasm factor is massive. It is so massive, because
we were just talking about it, sometimes people who have
who have slided into this career and maybe burnt out
and stuck and not going to bring that same level
of freshness and newness that people like so desperately want.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, it's like you can teach skills, you can't teach attitude,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Oh yeah, and you can't like breathe new life into
someone like if you know what I mean, like you
kind of have to cut Yeah. I just think that's
such a it's actually such an asset. Probably one of
the reasons you got hired at Hullo as well, what
you just said, it's because you was you wanted it
the most, and they knew that you were going to
bring that into that job. Another thing that one of
my friends recently had an experience like that, and she
(32:07):
has since found a much better job in a much
different field, and it's like a huge success story of
what we're talking about. And some of the things she
did in the meantime was she taught herself a new skill.
She taught herself how to be really really good at Excel,
which is super random. I think if you've ever worked
a corporate job, you know how valuable XL is. Like
(32:29):
I still know how to do all my functions from
when I was a consultant, Like it's so valuable. Another
one is like audio editing or learning how to do
design work. She taught herself a new skill, and she
also made her own project for her while she was
job hunting. I always think about what's that man's name,
(32:51):
that famous man, Matt Damon. I always think about Matt
Damon and Ben Affleck and how they weren't getting hired
for jobs and they weren't getting like acting gigs, and
so they just were like, fuck it, I'm gonna write
my own script. And sometimes you need to do that. Obviously,
it's not maybe won't make you into a quadruple millionaire
that they are now, but just being like, oh, whilst
(33:11):
I was, you know, unemployed, I like started my own business,
like doing reorganizing, or I started my own business like
selling online content, like or help as like a social
media manager. Like small things like that that show once
again that you have initiative, but also give you a
new skill for you to bring into this new career.
(33:33):
You know. I think it's a misconception that to change
careers you suddenly you need to go back to school
or you need to get a whole new degree. Can
you talk about that a bit. I think that's like
a huge one that I come across a lot.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I think that's why the informational interviews are so valuable
because you can ask them, you know, would you hire
someone who can you know, has learned these skills via
online learning and on the job and through real experience,
or do you prefer to see additional education And they'll
probably tell you real life learning of the skills is
more valuable to me than however many degrees you have. Now,
(34:07):
it always depends on what it is that you're doing.
If you want to be a doctor, we need you
to go through med school, you know. But I think
it's I would not drop kick to paying for, you know,
additional education before I've exhausted all my free options and
the ability to like for myself to test out and
experiment and build things, And I would start there first
(34:31):
one hundred times over.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's really interesting because I actually when you say, like lived,
experience is better. I have a politics degree, and I
have a philosophy degree and an economics degree. Do I
use those? No? No, So, like if someone if I
was to walk into like a position for an economist
and be like, oh, yeah, I have a degree, but
(34:53):
I've never done anything like this ever before, I really
could probably only apply my knowledge of UNI and that
was years ago.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, I mean, experience is always going to speak much
louder than degrees and words, you know. I think, you know,
for a lot of people, having the college degree is
like kind of that first step. But even now today,
like I mean, my kids are really young, but if
my kids get ready to go to college, I'm probably
going to ask them, well, what are you studying?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Is there?
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Because you might not even need to go to university
at some point, you know, you might be able to
learn everything via on the job learning and through you
can literally pretty much learn anything via YouTube videos if
you really wanted to, or TikTok videos at this point,
you know, so, I absolutely, especially for the advanced degree thing.
I'm always hesitant to ever give the advice of like, yeah,
(35:42):
go and pay for this thing.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Now.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Some people are like, I need the accountability. I need
to be able to show up in person. You're that
you're talking about something a little different. You could hire
a career coach to help you and work with you.
That would be a lot cheaper than going through an
academic program.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Oh absolutely, Especially I find this a lot with my
friends who are like they've reached kind of like a
plateau at like twenty five, twenty six, and a lot
of them are like, I'm going to go do my
masters because in Australia, like the government pays like, yeah,
it's a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
The government pays your alone for you, and it's just
like it it's just like almost like a limbo point.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
It's like taking a bridge job.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
You know, you're like bridging between wherever you're going to go.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Next, and you're going to buy time.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
And I will say there are plenty of people in
the US that they just pay for it, which is
not the best idea, but where they enroll in the
master's program because they're like, I'm not totally sure what
i want to do, and I'm gonna kind of buy
some time doing something productive. And so many of us,
when you're in your twenties, the thing you know, more
than work is school. You know, you've been a student
way longer than you've been in a worker.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, and especially when you're sold this very traditional path
of like more education equals more opportunities, Like I don't
necessarily think that's the case anymore, actually, And I think
also I've been reading lots of articles about people being
like actually, like like you said with your kids, like
it's a waste of money. It's a waste of money
(37:09):
for what I want to get into. Turning back to
someone who is at that turning point, at that crossroads,
ready to change, totally, ready to find a new job,
ready to try whatever it takes to shift to this
new path. What are some of the key challenges you
think they might encounter and how can they be prepared
for them so that when they happen they're not terrifying
(37:31):
and cause them to retreat. What are some of the
key challenges you think they might encounter and how can
they be prepared for them so that when they happen,
they're not terrifying and cause them to retreat.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Yeah, Amil will just say rejection is part of the process, right,
So you're going to apply for jobs and not get them.
You're going to have interviews that don't go well, you know,
I You're going to have informational interviews where you reach
out on the person never gets back to you, never
get to have it. So you know, part of this
is trying to figure out what parts of this process
can I control and what parts do I not have
(38:08):
control over?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And also.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Not giving up because you had one bad moment. Like
I joke that like if your resume got rejected, let's
say they're spending it seven seconds on average looking at
your resume. That's if they even did look at your resume,
Like that can't be taken as a personal.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Rejection, and Okay, you should give up.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Because what does that person know, right, they spent seven
seconds looking over something.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
But there are some.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Tips that you can do that give you a better chance, like,
for example, creating a really great master resume and then
tailoring that resume for each job that you apply for.
That is something that is totally in your control. People
always ask how do I tailor it? You're going to
tailor it based on what the job description and the
company are looking for, so you're able to take your
experience and how can you again take those transferable skills
(38:55):
and make them work for what that company needs. Now,
can you, when you apply for a job, go back
to that informational interview that you had at that job
and say, I recently applied for this job. Would you
be able to refer me? Can I send my resume
to you and you send it to a hiring manager.
That's within your control. You're able to send you know,
prep really well before an interview by researching the company,
(39:16):
researching who you're going to interview with, sending a thank
you note after. Those are things that you can control.
You can have a practice interview with your best friend,
your mom, your career coach, whoever. Those are things that
you can control. I think that focusing on what you
can control versus, you know, letting one thing kind of
(39:36):
fall out of place and then it kind of takes
everything down for you. It's not it's like an overall
lesson in life is like that's not going to go
very well because stuff happens and you have to be
able to adapt and go a plan B. The other
thing I always tell people, I'm like, there's no one
right way to job search, so like apply to jobs online,
you know, cold apply to jobs online also as your network,
(39:59):
you know, create sample projects of like if the job
you're applying to is a social media manager, create a
fake social media account for them, or show real graphics
of the content you would create if you were to
get hired there, Like you have the ability to put
your best foot forward and control those things. Now, there
are so many reasons why people do and do not
(40:19):
get jobs, and we can't always control those, and you know,
it's humans making decisions about other humans.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So that's why I say that.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
And one of the worst things that can happen in
a job search, and I see it happen all the time,
is like people don't start getting traction, so then they
start to like really kind of lose faith and hope
in their own abilities. And it's kind of like this
insecurity and negativity, you know, imposter syndrome versus a growth
mindset sometimes is a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
The growth mindset is the person who says, I'm going
to get there and I trust in my ability to
learn and adapt and keep going and be resilient, and
the imposter syndrome person is, well, you're not getting jobs
because you know you're not that good about you don't
really know what you're doing anyways, Like this is a
long shot anyways, And so being able to manage those
(41:07):
thoughts is also really important in a huge life skill.
So that's why I've always been a big fan of, like,
find another friend who's job searching with you so you
can share this stuff so that they can be your
hype woman when you need to, and vice versa. I
think all of that is really important in job searches.
There's a lot of moving parts that happen with it.
So yeah, and then the other thing is do not
(41:29):
forget about the power of LinkedIn, having an optimized profile,
networking with people on LinkedIn, leaving engaged comments. I just
did an entire podcast episode about the power of LinkedIn comments,
and that's something you have control over, you know. So
I like to shift people back to the things that
you can control versus the things you can't control. The
other thing I would say is if you're in that
(41:51):
part is think about the companies that you want to
apply for.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
So sometimes it's a little.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
Scary to be like I'm just going to apply to
any job that comes at me that I'm in rested. Yeah,
and so one of the things I've always been a
fan of and I'm not saying this is the only way,
but sometimes I feel like it can narrow it down
a little bit for you if you're feeling overwhelmed by saying, Okay,
let's just focus on what are your target companies? Why
are they your target companies? Do you only want to
work for remote companies? Do you only want to work
(42:16):
for companies whose products you're obsessed with?
Speaker 3 (42:20):
You know?
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Do you only want to work for companies that are
on the best Companies to work for lists? You know
that kind of thing, like you look, no one's like
double checking your work, So it can be for any reason.
It can be that they have a bigger, longer vacation policy.
I don't really care. My point being is like, get
some clarity over why this company interests you, and can
you dive a little deeper to learn about it? And
(42:43):
you know, learn about the company, Listen to the podcasts
with their leaders, see if they have earning calls that
you can check in with. Do they have events that
you can go to or online events? Can you follow
them on social media? You know, all of those things
add up.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Also, Yeah, I ars agree, it's about I think it's
just like having an exploratory mindset and one that's like
one of abundance and being like, I'm going to get
this job, and I'm going to show them that I
want this job, and I'm going to keep all my
doors open, can I I'm going to finish up by
asking you one more question, maybe two, maybe two, And
(43:22):
what advice would you give for someone who's taking in
a less conventional career path who wants to do something
that's like not necessarily a job that you can apply
for through LinkedIn or through seek. I'm thinking people normally
like in creative jobs, photographers, people who want to start
(43:43):
their own businesses, podcasters, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Yeah, I think for anybody who's starting something that maybe
isn't like a job that you apply to online, like
just get started. You know, my very first podcast episode
is not as good as the podcast episode I have today,
But thank goodness, I started and I started practicing, you know,
and I just got out there. I recently started creating
content on LinkedIn, and I was like, oh my god,
(44:08):
my first like five posts are not that good. I
didn't understand like the best way to like write your
content and format it on LinkedIn, and guess what, I
keep doing it every day, not because I love having
one more thing to do, but because I want to
get better at it. So if you are, you know,
building your own brand or your own business, something to
think about is like just get started and then by
(44:30):
starting you will start to iron out some of the wrinkles.
Connect with other people who are doing the stuff that
you want to do, because they will be your best
teachers and advocates and people you can go to. The
other thing, I guess is probably on the financial same
way as like how are you going to make money?
You know, like if you're going to be a photographer,
like how are you planning on charging people? What are
(44:53):
your packages? Like laying stuff out versus being a little
loosey goosey. I think people like to have options, too
many options, you know, and then also making it easy
for them to make those decisions and personal branding slash
you know, marketing, I guess is a big piece of
all of that. You know, if you're going to be
a podcaster, how are you going to get people to
listen to your show?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You know?
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Are you just going to build it and then hope
that they come. They probably won't you know, So are
you going to also start sharing it on LinkedIn? Are
you going to start an Instagram channel on TikTok? Are
you going to recycle the content?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
So?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know?
Speaker 4 (45:29):
As a content creator today, I don't. I didn't go
to school to become a content creator, but I learned
by doing and watching other people, reading their blog posts,
you know, and just iterating along the way too. I
think if you're doing a less traditional career path, it's
something more creative. It just requires you to not just
(45:49):
do that thing. You also probably are going to have
to be like, for example, you're a podcast, you own
a business. You understand you don't just get to podcast
some days. You also have to think about like taxes
and payroll or you know that kind of stuff. So
just something to think about is that, you know, running
a business is a whole other set of skills besides
just that. I think a lot of people start running
(46:09):
a business because they're like, I really love photography. Well,
there are probably other career paths that you can do
that include photography, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you
have to start your own business. I think I'm also
sensitive to this because I think for a while at
least my generation, the millennial women generation, I think we
were constantly told if work isn't working for you, just
(46:30):
become your own boss, become a quote girl boss. And
I don't think that's the answer for everybody either. So
I think that for some people, entrepreneurship is a great
path and for some people it's like I'm very creative
and I like to create, but I really want the security,
and no job is providing you one hundred percent security,
But like, I want to do it on a larger
(46:51):
scale for a bigger company. You know, I want to
go work for CANBA where I'm helping do design work
or something like that. So just something to think about
is like, also, who are you as a person? Entrepreneurship
comes with high highs, low lows, uncertainty. It's not that
a corporate career doesn't come with that. It comes with
its own slew of things. You know, the grass is
not greener anywhere. And I had this woman on the
(47:13):
podcast who was like, the grass is green wherever you
water it, And it's like, yeah, so where do you
want to invest your time and energy? You know, because
wherever you are, you're gonna be watering the grass.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
You have to.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And you know what, I will say this about working
for yourself, being an entrepreneur, starting your own business, whatever
it is, you have to love what you're doing one
hundred and fifty percent, maybe even two hundred percent, because
when you start doing it for yourself, you're gonna love
it a lot less because you will suddenly have to
deal with a lot of things that you didn't want
(47:45):
to deal with. The one for me is like, yeah,
obviously it's just like admin and taxes and talking to
my lawyer and like things like that. And then it's
also like receiving negative comments and doing social media. Like
I did not start a podcast thinking that I would
have to do social media as much as I did
as I do. It's like such a hassle and like
(48:07):
I didn't go to school for that either. So I
think it is about exactly The perfect place to end
is exactly as you said, the grass is greenest where
you water it. And I honestly think that you can
be watering two lawns at once, waiting to shift over
to that second lawn over there and let the other
one die off. But it's like all about being realistic
(48:30):
about like what you can achieve and in what timeframe
that's my I'm gonna say that as a final piece
of advice, like you don't have to have it all
sorted out in the next six months. There's always a
sense of like huge, massive urgency in our twenties to
get everything instantly. Sometimes it's gonna take a little bit longer,
but it's still gonna be worth it in the end. Look,
that's a beautiful place to end. I want to say
thank you so much Lauren for coming on. Honestly, I
(48:53):
was taking notes. I think you could say of like
your advice, being like, oh yep, we gotta take that,
gonna pass that on, like it is genuinely so so useful,
so practical. If you want to hear more from Lauren,
you should go and follow the Career Contesta podcast with
Dear Media. I've actually listened to a few episodes, and
(49:13):
you know what it's I love when shows actually give
you practical things to do.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yeah, that's pretty much what we do all the time.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
You know, career advice delivered an actual bite size like
do this, do that. I found that again, career advice
can sometimes be a little abstract, and people like tangible.
They need that in order to move forward, So that's.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
What we do. Yeah, it's really really useful if you're
thinking about changing careers again. I will leave all of
Lauren's links and career Contesta links in the description of
this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you
enjoyed it, please feel free to share with someone else
who might get something out of this episode and leave
a five star review. You can also follow us at
(49:54):
that Psychology podcast if you have some feedback, something to
say about this episode, further questions, or of course, an
episode's suggestion. We always love to hear from you, and
we will be back next week with another episode.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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