March 31, 2025 • 56 mins
So many of us worry about finding a purpose and progressing in our career from an early age, but sometimes our path through life looks different to how we imagine it. The poet Victoria Hutchins is one example of this being the case. In today's episode we break down:
- How to find your calling
- When to take risks
- The best decisions you can make in your 20s
- The power of vulnerability
- Why hope is the answer
- PLUS, her best anxiety tips and more
Listen now!
Buy Victoria's amazing book of poetry here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755776/make-believe-by-victoria-hutchins/
Follow Victoria here: @thedailyvictorian
PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean
Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast
For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode. As we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties, there is a lot of
back and forth about what we should be doing in
(00:20):
our twenties. Even more so, I think what we should
be doing with our lives. Should we be pursuing success,
should we be content and fulfilled with the slow life?
What would make us the happiest, what would make us
the most fulfilled? Big questions, very big questions, and a
lot of us are looking for one particular answer. The
(00:43):
thing is, I don't think we ever will have the answers,
but we do have the stories of individuals who have
taken the most remarkable, unexpected paths through life and can
really share their wisdom with us. You know, what they've learned,
what they wish their younger self would know, what they
have to say about fear, and what they have to
say about finding purpose their mistakes. Today, I had the
(01:07):
privilege of getting to speak to one of these individuals,
a poet, a mental health advocate. You've probably seen her
on Instagram. A very wise woman, Victoria Hutchins, and every
piece of advice she gave today felt so important and
so life changing. Without further ado, welcome to the podcast.
Victoria Hutchins, how are you going?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hi, Jima, Thank you so much for having me. I'm
so happy to be here. I am such a rabid
fan of psychology of your twenties, so this is a thrill.
I'm delighted. I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You're doing great? Yeah, I love hearing that I'm doing
good as well. What a surprise with us both doing good?
Full moon at the moment. Have you had any creepy
things happen, any weird energy shifts?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, today has been a day. So my poetry book
Make Belief comes out on Tuesday, as we record this,
So today I went to the independent bookstore in Houston
that I'm doing the signed copies with, and signed copies,
so that was just like I was crying all day
just because it felt so special. I'm sure it had
(02:20):
something to do. It's a full moon too, because it's
also a total lunar eclipse, so it was like a
super powerful full moon.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Not gonna lie. That makes a lot of sense and
like the background of my life right now. So many
things have just happened literally in like the last twenty
four to forty eight hours. Obviously I'm such a scientific person,
but I do feel like that sometimes I really notice
when there's like shifts in just like our collective energy
(02:51):
as humans. And I definitely noticed that today, So I'm
glad I'm not the only one. I definitely also cry
today as well. So okay, she had a few tears,
maybe at the same time.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, maybe at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Okay, we've kind of jumped right into it. But I
do want you to introduce yourself to the listeners who
may not know how powerful and amazing you are.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You're so sweet, high listeners. I'm Victoria Hutchins. I am
a content creator. I'm a poet. I until recently was
a corporate lawyer. So I left my job as an
attorney about a year and a half ago to do
a bunch of different things on the internet. So it's
(03:32):
been a really strange and beautiful past few years. I
love to write and talk and think about mental health.
I love to write about nostalgia and childhood, body image,
thinking about purpose, thinking about mortality. I know that's a
(03:54):
little dark. But those are some of the themes in
make believe in things that I like to talk about.
And so makes sense that I'm an avid listener of
psychology of your twenties because I feel like you talk
about those things a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Gemma, I was literally I was listening to that being like, ah.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Tick tick, dating, friendship, would you talk about a lot too? Yeah,
all the things, Yeah, we grapple with in our twenties.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And you know what, all the things we grapple with
as humans. But you've had this like really incredible path.
And one of the big reasons I wanted to bring
you on is obviously to talk about vulnerability and hope
and art and creativity, but also to talk about big
life changes and making career shifts and career changes not
(04:36):
even later in life, but at a time when it
doesn't feel expected. So one of the big reasons that
I wanted you to come on is not just because
you are this incredible healer and to talk about creativity
and vulnerability, but also to talk about your path from
having that corporate career to doing what you do now.
One of the big series of questions and like themes
(04:57):
of questions that I get so much of people in
their twenties is I don't know what I want to
do in my life. I don't know how to figure
out that path, and I feel like I need to
decide right now and look in for this career. What
was your experience perhaps with a similar feeling.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I will say I think it's super normal to
feel that way. I definitely felt that way. And if
there's one thing that being in my thirties and having
a drastic career change at the end of my thirties
or at the end of my twenties rather and the
start of my thirties has showed me life is long,
you know, we have We have way more time than
(05:39):
we think we do, and it is normal and okay
to change your mind. I think that, at least in
the US, the education system implores you to decide what
you're going to do for the rest of your life
when you're eighteen years old, and that's just not realistic.
(06:00):
And so for me, I was always someone who loved
creativity as a child. Nothing lit me up like acting, poetry,
anything like that I loved. However, I think there's a
time for many of us where we kind of realized
(06:24):
those types of hopes aren't practical, or we start to
think that they are, and I definitely experience that. So
I specifically remember the moment that I sort of pivoted
away from the dream of doing something creative. I was
a sophomore in high school and I went to visit INYU,
which is a college in New York City, and I
(06:44):
wanted to do something creative at that time. I wanted
to be an artist or an actress. And I remember
visiting NYU and just feeling so intimidated. Everything about it
intimidated me. And I think on that trip, I kind
of I've realized, Okay, this isn't practical. Let me just
try to be really good at school, and I will
(07:05):
just go the passionless route. I will just have a
job that isn't what I'm passionate about. And look, I
still believe in that model. For a lot of people,
your career doesn't have to be your passion. But for me,
I think I always deeply wanted that. And so even
(07:28):
though I stayed the course of like going to a
super serious school, then law school, then straight to a
huge law firm, that feeling never went away. It never
went away, and so I found myself approaching thirty still
having that scratching feeling in my brain, and so I
(07:50):
think that you do not have to know what you
want to do with the rest of your life in
your twenties. However, if you have a gut feeling of
not this, it's probably not going to go away, you know.
And so I think noticing that feeling that you're desiring
(08:13):
a change is a really important step that could happen
for a lot of people in their twenties.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know. It reminds me of this beautiful saying that
if it's your calling, it won't stop calling, which I
really really like. And I think sometimes people get really
stressed because they're like, well, I don't even have one
of those yet. I love that you said we have
so much more time than we think, because it is
one hundred percent truth. We just don't realize it because
(08:40):
we are so engrossed in the moment, which is a
good thing at times. It's good to be present, but
we don't reflect on how many changes have already happened
in our lives that we've survived and we've been good
at and that have been for the best, and how
many changes are yet to come right we just see
ourselves as in this present moment. And you know, at eighteen,
(09:01):
I wanted to be a politician, Like I went to
a political science university and I just did psychology because
it was fun. And then I was working as a
management consultant, which I love that we both have these
very corporate careers where no one really knows what we
do on the day to day, but like they know,
it's you get paid for it to now doing the
(09:23):
creative thing. And I think that battle between passion and
practicality is a very, very very present one in a
lot of our lives. For you, did you have a
turning point where you were like, I cannot ignore this calling,
this voice, this creative drive any longer.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, so, I think I had a couple different turning
points in my career. There was a moment when I
was at my law firm where I had a panic
attack on a conference call. I was working a ton
and it's very hard to explain. It's the only panic attack,
(10:05):
at least like that, that I've ever had. I couldn't
feel my hands, I couldn't breathe. I thought I was
having like a medical incident. I thought I was having
a heart attack or something, and I think after that experience,
I knew something had to change. However, I didn't leave
law at that time. I went on to go in house.
(10:27):
So I went to work for a cybersecurity company. Stayed
practicing law, but it was under less demanding circumstances. I
had more work life balance. And it's funny because I
thought that that would scratch the itch, right. I thought, Okay,
now I'll have time to engage with my passions as hobbies.
(10:47):
I'll have time to practice yoga, I'll have time to write.
And the first thing that happened when I left my
law firm is I was so burnt out that every
moment that I wasn't working my new job, I was sleeping.
I think we forget that. You know, you think you're
(11:07):
going to be able to just dive from one end
of the spectrum to the other, but often you're deeply
burnt out when you leave a job that has been
draining for you for a long time. So that was
the first phase. I thought I was going to dive
into all these hobbies, and really I just slept because
it was the first time my body felt I think
(11:29):
I came out of that fight or flight after a.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Really long time, like survival mode. Almost yes, And important
to note like people think that a weekend off gets
rid of burnout. Recovering from burnouts like a six to
twelve month process.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It was long. That's so interesting to hear because that
was exactly my experience. And then after I started to
come out of burnout, I did start to engage with
my hobbies and that felt really good. But I found
that it was just I wanted more, more, more. It
wasn't enough for me to engage with my hobbies as hobbies.
(12:04):
The more I poured into them, the more I wanted
to do them, until I was because I still had
a corporate job that was pretty demanding. I was still
working eight to ten hours a day, but I would
finish that and then stay up till like three o'clock
in the morning writing poems and just be waiting for
the moment I could get away to pour into my hobbies.
(12:25):
And so I found that the moment I came back
to my hobbies, they started to swallow me whole very fast,
and so it was sort of just like rolling down
a hill versus a turning point.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
From there, I love this swell swallow mehole totally what
it feels like.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It was that your experience, because I know you worked
a corporate job before the podcast, what was that like
for you.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I was literally listening to you being like, yeah, absolutely,
I'll tell a little story, a little secret here, which
hopefully no one from my old workplace is listening, although
it doesn't really matter at this point. But I used
to do like podcast work on my work computer and
pretend that I was working, so I would be like,
(13:10):
you know, I wasn't like I was busy, but like
I wasn't you know, I was still busy, but if
I could like find time, I would literally sit there
and I'd have two documents up and one was whatever
I was working on and one would be like an episode.
And sometimes I would I would get in this zone,
like my peak hours for productivity are like seven to
(13:33):
nine pm at night, and I can just get so
much done during that period. And obviously I was working
a really intensive job, so sometimes I wouldn't finish work
until seven pm or later. And so instead of risking
that productivity period to go home and get on the train,
I would just use my work computer and then email
it to myself and would just sit there and I
(13:54):
remember this like really senior like partner, like senior director
was like, wow, you're always working so hard, like we
need to give you a promotion, and I was like,
this isn't for you guys, like I don't giving a
fuck about this job. Like I was just like, this
is for me, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I mean that makes so much sense to me, and
I relate so much. And it is when you have
a passion that's growing, nothing can stop you from focusing
on it. It's like the best productivity hack ever to
just love whatever you're doing, Like hours can pass and
you can just be. It can be like no time past.
(14:32):
I know that's a very psychologically supported thing to like
flow state, but exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's one of the highest forms of consciousness, highest forms
of focus, highest forms of attention. Is when you feel
equally challenged and excited by something, passionate and driven by
it as well. So this is the thing that we
can take from this. Right if you are someone who's
sitting there being like, wow, that sounds really really fun
that you two are talking about how you found your
purpose and you're calling what can I do? Like how
(15:01):
does that help me? You really need to pay attention
to the moments where you feel like you were floating
in a task or an activity, The moments where you
feel the time is just passing you by, where you
feel completely plugged in. That is what you need to
pay attention to. That urge to just do and make
(15:24):
or be or talk or whatever it is, whatever skill
or physicality or anything. You just feel like you are
just drawn to do it. That is your calling. It
might not look like a calling because you're like, how
do I make a job out of this? But explore
it more and you'll definitely definitely find it. Did you
experience any like pushback maybe from your parents when you
(15:47):
are like, hey, I'm going to quit being a lawyer,
which is a very understandable job, and become a poet
and a healer and a yoga teacher or a practicer
of yoga. What was the reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah? I think so. My parents were initially very skeptical.
I remember going home for the Christmas holidays and telling
them trying to explain because by that point it was
I was growing and I was trying to explain to them,
this is a career. People do this, because at that
time it was sort of the Internet. I'm thinking about
(16:21):
leaving my job to do the Internet. So that's not
even something they really heard of. Content creator. That was
all new to them, and so I think they were
a little skeptical. My husband was a little skeptical. I'm
lucky to have a lot of supportive people in my
life who love me a lot. However, I'm a really
(16:45):
pro change person. I would say I'm not super risk averse.
That's not the case for say my husband. He's very
like he's thinking about the risks. He's an attorney as well,
but he's more has the personality type you would think
of when you think of an attorney, like he's on
me about my taxes and the just all the risks.
(17:05):
You know, that's where his brain goes. And I try
to remember with kind of pushback that you get from
people when you want to chase a dream, I think
it comes from one of two places. Usually it's either fear,
like these are people who love you who they're afraid
that it's not going to work out and you're gonna
(17:27):
get hurt and you'll be exposed and you'll crash and burn.
And that makes sense that they feel that fear, and
that's coming from a place of love. And then I
think there's another bucket of pushback, and this I would say,
no one close to me fortunately pushed back on me
in this way. But there's people who express criticism because
(17:49):
they resent you and because they would love to do
something different, but they wouldn't try. And so when they
see someone who is willing to actually jump off the
ledge and try, that's very triggering for them, you know,
because if you anything that you don't give yourself permission
(18:10):
to do, when you see someone else doing it unapologetically,
it's very like triggering and it creates a lot of resentment.
And so I think that that's helpful for me to
remember people are either just kind of validly afraid for
you because they love you and they want you to
be safe and happy, or it really doesn't have much
(18:32):
to do with you, and it has to do with
that person and things they don't allow themselves to do.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I'm gonna pull out another quote, another saying that I
talk about on the podcast all the time. If they
can't be where you are, the next best alternative is
for them to drag you down to where they are.
And I love that one. It happens a lot normally,
not with like close family loved ones, people in the peri,
(19:00):
people who you maybe went to college with, people who
are kind of maybe in tend and with you in
their careers, people for whom their own fear is their
biggest problem not and you are a projection of all
their fears realized basically because you're doing it and everything's
(19:21):
going well, and they have this fear of doing it
and it going well or maybe going terribly, and so
there's a sense in them of like, if I was
to do this, I would fail, and here's this person succeeding,
and that's unfair because their brain has like cooked up
this like crazy scenario that they're not capable. It's a
really it's something to really watch out for, especially in
(19:43):
your twenties. And sometimes it comes down to jealousy.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, especially among women in your twenties and thinking about
creative careers that require trying publicly, you know, things like
the Internet or that's many things where you kind of
have to try publicly first. I think it's it's so
easy to not ever try because you're worried about that
type of feedback and judgment happening. Even if you don't
(20:08):
have access to it. You're worried, you're in someone's group
chat or whatever. You're worried people are making fun of
you behind your back, and it's just it's possible that
they are. Honestly, however, it doesn't have anything to do
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, and you gotta climb cringe Mountain.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That's right, Like, that's Cringe.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Mountain once you like, Cringe Mountain is really scary for
the first t one hundred meters, and then it's like
a walk in the park, Like you have to get
over the parts of you that feel like I'm not
good enough for this because someone else has told me
and I'm gonna believe them. And it's this crazy thing.
I guess what we're really talking about, as well as
imposter syndrome is it's this crazy thing where we believe
(20:45):
others judgments so quickly, but we never really trust our own.
It's like, what is it about us and how we
were raised that it's so trusting of someone else's instincts
about us, but not what we know to be true.
When you start interrogating that a lot of stuff, A
lot of spiders crawl out of dark places. I do
want to talk about your experience posting about vulnerability online
(21:10):
because I absolutely love how realistic you are about optimism
and authenticity and also mental health and self care. Why
do you think it is so important to be vulnerable
about the times when life isn't good and isn't perfect.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well, I had a really hard time in my twenties.
I had a very dark chapter, really rough mental health chapter,
just a spiral, and I think for me, when I
was navigating that, a lot of the talk around hope,
around mental health, around purpose felt super alienating. The you
(21:56):
just need to find your why, you just need to
keep hope. Those sort of things when you're really struggling,
at least for me, feel impossible. It feels completely impossible.
And so I think that the only thing that made
me feel less alone when I was in a really
(22:20):
dark place were things that showed that experience in all
of its grit, right. And so when I write about
struggling with mental health, I try to be honest about
the grit and the depths of the darkness, but also
(22:42):
show a light that's on the other side, because I
think that it's really impossible to keep hope when you're struggling, right,
but you can stay with the idea of being that
maybe hope exists in the future, and that's sort of
the vantage point I always try to write about the
(23:05):
topic of big mental health struggles. I never want people
to feel compelled to try to find hope right now,
because for me that was always impossible. But I want
people to know that it does exist in the future,
and that's worth that's worth sticking around for, that's worth
(23:27):
going through the motions of self care. That feels ridiculous
when you're really struggling, Like all of these things that
we do that often feel supportive if we're doing well,
like the gratitude journals or whatever. Often when you're really
in it, it feels so ridiculous and pointless. However, these
(23:48):
things aren't pointless. It's not pointless to go for a walk.
It's not pointless to call your friend. It's not pointless
to make a plan for next week. It can feel
that way, but I think there's so much value in
going through the motions. The title of my poetry book,
make Believe, is partially about nostalgia. It's partially a reference
(24:11):
to playing Make Believe as a child. It's also a
reference to the idea that we can make ourselves believe
in things by turning our attention to them. So when
it comes to hope, if we want to feel hope,
maybe a big part of that is directing our attention
(24:32):
towards things that suggest it exists, towards things we love
and care about. Right, And I think that even if
the emotion, even if the hope isn't there in the
first instance, the more time we spend looking for it,
the more likely it is.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
To appear psychologically on proven as well. Your brain and
you have a two way relationship, and what you feed
it and what you show it is what you believe.
So say, for example, you have very limited hope around
(25:10):
what is our purpose here on this planet? What happens
after we die? Like what is all this about? You
can focus on all the nihilistic existential thoughts that you
probably are naturally having as a human who's curious and
scared of the unknown. Or you can focus on magic
and everything beautiful that happens that there is no explanation for,
(25:31):
and the joy you feel around others. Same with maybe
you're struggling thinking like and maybe going to find love.
You can focus on all the other people saying, oh
my god, dating is so horrific, dating is so awful,
This really sucks. Or you can focus on those really
surprising love stories. You can focus on the love you
(25:52):
feel for almost everything around you and how eventually that's
going to have another place. Eventually that will land and
in the lap of someone who will reciprocate it in
the way you want it to. So I one hundred
percent agree with this sentiment and think that sometimes when
you are in litrenchius, at work, in a friendship, in
(26:14):
a relationship, just in life with your mental health, you
just have to go through the motions knowing that sometimes
our emotions do occur in cycles. Hope is bound to return.
Something you care about and something worth living is bound
to and something worth living for is bound to come
back around. I really like what you say about hope
(26:35):
is is something that sometimes just has like a mind
of its own as well, Like anyone who's struggled with
their mental health will know, sometimes you have no explanation.
I remember last year, like from the outside, my life
looked literally perfect and it felt perfect. Had this beautiful partner,
(26:55):
I have beautiful friends, I was doing really well financially,
I had purpose, and my whole life was falling apot
and in like a very drastic way. And then suddenly,
you know, I've been going through a hot period recently
which I would have every reason to completely fall apot over,
and there's just all this hype around me, and there's
just all this like it just feels lighter, and I
(27:17):
haven't done anything differently that I know of. It just
sometimes comes back around.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I was gonna say, I completely agree. It's interesting how
fickle hope is. There's a line and make believe that
it is something like hope is easy to lose and
hard to kill, and it is fascinating in a bad way.
Fascinating isn't exactly the right word. But how often I
think when these moments of everything appears to be going well,
(27:46):
often those are the most hopeless times. I don't know
why that is, you know, but these moments where where
we appear to be on top of the world so
often you hear I've experienced that myself as well, that
those are people darkest times, strange like, I really relate
to that, and I think it's I also love what
(28:08):
you said about belief and this idea that we can
control the extent to which we believe in purpose and
mystery of the world by where we direct our attention
because and I think you've dealt with this as well.
I think I remember listening to you talk about this
(28:29):
on Psychology of your twenties. But I had a big
part of my spiral in my twenties was related to
kind of spinning out about purpose and divinity and after
life and death and what happens when we die. And
for me, this idea that I'm allowed to choose what
I believe has been life changing. I'm allowed to choose
(28:55):
to believe we're doing something here, to believe to believe
we're in a loving universe, to believe we have a soul,
to believe there's something after this. I'm allowed to choose
to believe in those things and direct my attention towards
things that suggest that that's the case, or that helped
(29:18):
me believe that that's the case and that's not naive.
That's protecting my faith, right, and that's protecting it's making
me live my life in a way that that's more
joyful and more loving. And so to me, it doesn't
even really matter if it's true. It matters, but even
(29:41):
if it's not true, I'm still glad I chose to
believe in things, and so that's been that's kind of
the core the heart of make believe, And yeah, you
just touched on it really beautifully.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I have a very similar thing, which I know you
just mentioned. You know this, and I have a very
similar thought process where I was just basically like, how
arrogant of me to assume that I know what's going
to happen, but how arrogant of me to assume it's
the worst case scenario, Like every single human has thought
(30:12):
about this, but I'm the one who got it right.
Like I'm the one who was like, it's this terrible,
awful thing that happens after we die and life is
suffering and I know that fact for sure, and no
one and like, huh, like.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
We forget so change and yeah, we forget that lack
of lack of belief or belief and negative things is
also a belief, you know what I mean. It's still
just like as much of a leap of faith as
the choice to believe one percent.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And honestly, I need that tattooed in my body as
a reminder because it was this thing I kept getting
into where I was like, oh, it's going to be
it's so terrible. And I was like, wait, but there's
all these people who don't think that, and there's this
beautiful theory and I'm not sure where it's come from,
but that we get to choose. Whatever your conception of
the after life is is what happens like That's that's
(31:03):
what it's going to be. And so anytime you get
so stressed and negative about very existential questions, put all
that energy into creating what you think would be the
best case scenario and envision what that would feel like
and create a whole universe around it. That's a much
better Uh. But that's a much better reason and use
(31:27):
of your energy.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Absolutely regardless of whether it's the case after all this
it is because probably helps you live a more peaceful,
joyful present life in the here and now, to not
be obsessed over something horrible happening after this.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I love how we've just gotten totally off track and
now we're suddenly talking about death. But we are going
to take a tiny break and when we come back,
we're going to pivot and talk a little bit more
about anxiety and mental health, self care and of course
your own your book. Okay, we are back with Victoria Hutchins.
(32:07):
We are having a very in depth, deep conversation if
you are just tuning in now. We've talked about hope,
We've talked about vulnerability, We've talked about career change. I
want to talk about self care because I think that
the way we think about self care has become very commercialized,
very aligned with money and consuming more to you, what
(32:31):
does authentic self care really look like.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I think, let me start here with a very practical
thing that costs zero dollars, getting off our phones. That's
the thing that no one will sell you because it's
not in its costs money. When we get off our phones, right,
that's one of the best ways if we want to
take care of ourselves. I think being present, being in nature,
(32:57):
taking walks, all the stereotypical things, but nothing will feel
like self care if you don't do it with a
present mindset. So if you go out in nature but
you're on your phone, or you go for a walk
but you're on your phone. I think how we do
all these different things matters as much as whether we
do them right. And there's also your intention in the
(33:19):
sense of are we doing a self care activity with
the aim being to change ourselves in some way. Like
so much of self care when it comes to women
relates to beauty practices, practices that help us maintain the
(33:39):
beauty standard. And so I think that those things can
be things that are acts of self care, exercising, doing
your skincare, etc. But if we're doing these things like
from a place of I hate myself and I'm trying
to change myself, I think that that starts to break
(34:00):
down how helpful that's going to be for you. I
think self care is a lifelong.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Journey.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I struggle with maintaining a self care routine still. I
probably always will. I don't know, Jim, if you've read
the book A Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control by Katherine
Morgan Chasler, it's a great book.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, I literally have it in this room somewhere. Really
it's yeah, has it got the matches on the front?
Is this a book I'm thinking about?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I think so it has pink on the front. I
guess maybe they are matches.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think I have. I literally have this
book somewhere. Okay, it's staring at me. It's fantastic to me,
being like, you should pick me up sometimes.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I think you would like it not to be parasocial,
but based on listening to your podcast for years, I
think you would like it. But it I love that book,
and I think that it has really helpful things that
were really helpful to me around self care in the
sense of letting go of the idea of balance as
(35:12):
the pinnacle of self care. I think that it's pretty
inevitable that we're going to be consumed by different things
at different stages in our life, whether it's you're in
a really busy phase with your job, or you're dating
someone new and that's like consuming all your energy and
all your time, or you're socializing a ton. And I
(35:33):
think that sometimes self care and balance become another yardstick
that we used to tell ourselves we aren't measuring up.
And maybe self care looks less like trying to live
this perfectly balanced life where you're doing your skincare and
you're exercising, and you're doing your gratitude journal every day
and all these different little things fit in every day,
(35:57):
and more like letting chapters of your life be what
they are, being less mean to yourself when your life
doesn't look how you're shown on the internet. That it's
supposed to look. I get so exhausted by those tik
toks and reels that are like my morning routine and
they do like forty five things. It's just impossible. It's impossible.
(36:21):
And so I think that could be part of your
self care, but it also could be knowing your life
doesn't have to look like that.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The easiest kind of self care is just giving yourself
more space to do the things you want to do
and giving yourself more time to just go slower. And
that's really what changed my perspective on it, was that
it's not something that is like if someone is trying
to sell you something and say this is going to
fix you, they are selling you a lie. A face
(36:51):
mask is not going to fix you. Some you know,
new crazy diet is not going to completely rewire your mind.
Most likely a way of thinking isn't going to do
that either. What truly does change your life is slowing
down and being intentional about where things sit in your life,
(37:13):
giving yourself five extra minutes to get to a meeting
so you're not stressed, giving yourself the ability to order
take away every now and again because it makes your
life easier For me, I think that self care is
about a pursuit of ease and a pursuit of joy.
What systems can you put in place so that actually
(37:34):
you spend more time present in your life than worrying
about things from the past or things that are going
to happen. Like, it's about anchoring you in the present.
And you know what, it's taken me a very long
time to learn that. Do you have any other tips
for people, or perhaps even anxiety tips or mental health
tips that you think are underrated currently?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Well, I think that we're in an extreme isolated time
right now, and it's hard to overstate the importance of
other people in our well being, and it's easy to
forget that in a media landscape that's showing you a
picture of self care or a good life where people
(38:17):
are mostly alone, we're just not seeing much. I think
community is really really important, and we've kind of lost that.
We're at least in the US, we're such an individualistic society,
and it's very easy to when you're going through it,
(38:39):
when you're really anxious, want to hide from the world
until you're doing better. I feel that urge still, and
it's so hard to resist the urge to cancel plans
because you're feeling anxious, you're feeling upset, you don't want
to see people, you're feeling bad about yourself. I think
(39:00):
you should all be interrogating that impulse a little bit more.
And I am among the ranks of people who need
to do that. But often we isolate ourselves thinking it
will help, when really spending time with people that we
love would help a lot more. And I think that
(39:22):
the more connected we are to each other also the
more we remember that it's okay to need each other,
it's okay to need things from each other, it's okay
to call someone when you need to talk to them.
I think connection is a big part of that. And
it's a hard it's a hard time to be alive
right now between you, just the state of the world,
(39:44):
and it's very very easy to isolate in response to it.
I think it's super important that we don't.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I on agree this whole episode is just maybeing just
nodding along in the background, being like, yes, yes, tattoo
this on my body. This is my life philosophy for
people who don't have community, you know, and we're here
talking about connection, being like it is an antidote. It
is medicinal. Community is essential. How do you think people
(40:12):
can go about building it? You know? For me, when
I first moved to Sydney, I didn't know anyone, and
the way I did it was I just went to
the same places at the same time until people started
to be like, hey, I see you here. You know same.
I went to the same pilates classes on Tuesday and Thursday,
same time. I went to the same coffee shops, I
(40:34):
went to the same book clubs. And I was consistent
with that, And that's how community was built around my routine.
What would be your kind of like little tips for
maybe just even making some new friends.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I have so many because I struggled with this a lot.
So I moved to Houston for my legal job in
twenty eighteen, and the first three years when I worked
for my law firm, I was too busy to do anything.
So when I left the law firm to work for
the cybersecurity company, I had zero friends in Houston, literally
not a single friend, and I had lived in Houston
(41:09):
for three years, and so I went on this very
intentional process of making friends.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
For me.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
The things that worked, I think using the internet does help.
So if there's someone that say, you went to high
school with them, or your family friends with them, and
it looks like you might have a lot in common,
you're connected on the internet, Trying to build a banter
with someone on the internet is helpful, even just like
responding to their stories with little enthusiastic things and then
(41:39):
throwing in a hey, I notice we're both in this town.
I'd love to hang out. Like I find when you
act familiar with people, they start acting familiar with you.
And that applies in person too. So if you say
you go to a yoga class sitting you know, if
you're sitting next to someone asking them how do you
(42:00):
taking this teacher's class before, or just small little questions
and then offering up a little bit about your experience.
I haven't taken it, I've heard it's hard, or just
some little thing you can offer that implies a sense
of familiarity. People really open up in response to that.
Compliments are a super easy way to talk to people.
(42:21):
If you're in line at a coffee shop and there's
someone that looks like they could be a friend of yours,
someone who looks like they're your age, whatever, giving them
a compliment about something that they're wearing is a really
easy way to start a conversation with someone. And then
I think that the process of growing a friendship, we
(42:43):
are socialized to think that it should happen naturally. Like
thinking about friendship compared to dating, we're very aware that
with dating, there's the talking stage, we're going on dates,
We're having these intentional moments of connection, there's defining the relationship,
there's this very organized process of bonding and connection connecting.
(43:05):
We don't really have that with friendship, but it's still necessary.
I think with new friends. New friendships are very vulnerable
to fizzling out. So if it's a friendship that seems
like it's a great prospect, you're excited about this person,
you do have to be pretty intentional about it. I
think that hanging out with new friends is stressful and
(43:27):
anxiety inducing, especially if you have social anxiety. But I
would urge against canceling too much and that sort of thing, like,
be mindful that if you do that, it could fizzle
the friendship in the early stage. And of course take
care of yourself. Of course, do what you need to do.
(43:48):
But like anything else, if you want it, you have
to prioritize it. And I think that friendship is one
of those things that we're kind of made to think
it just happens, but it doesn't. You do have to
really be intentional about it.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
You have to work for it, and you have to
sometimes feel a little bit embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
M that's right.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Like you have to feel a little bit embarrassed about
double texting someone, a little bit embarrassed about being like hey,
and you know instigating, but people love an instigator, yes,
they do. Your easiest way, easiest way to build community
is to be the center of that community. That's being
the one who instigates.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
That's right, and be chalant about it, like, not notchalant.
I would like to be your friend. I the number
of times I've said that's said that I would like
to be your friend. Be clear, Be clear, because people
don't know, and people want to feel affirmed, and it's
such it's so much easier to connect when you lay
your cards on the table that that's what you're trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
My closest friends will tell you. One of my longest friends,
I saw her last night and I see her all
the time. We're very very close, known for about eight years,
and I remember we met because she was dating another
really good friend of mine who I'm still great friends with,
and I met her when they were dating and they're
no longer dating. But I said to her after the
(45:09):
first time we met, we're gonna be friends, Like I
just need you to be prepared, like we're gonna be friends.
And I felt like a guy going on a first
date with someone and going I'm gonna marry you, or like,
you know what I mean. Like it felt like that
just sends uncertainty. And I continue to say that to
people because I'm like, I'm gonna speak this into existence.
I'm being the same way that people are, like be
(45:31):
really clear of your intentions when you're dating, be clear
with your intentions when you're trying to make friends.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's right and as and once they're your friend, it
continues to be important. And it feels weird, but we're
very These proclamations of love are very normalized in romantic relationships,
but it's important to affirm your friends, like tell them,
I'm so grateful to have you in my life. You
are so important to me. I see this value in you.
(45:57):
I'm grateful for you, like all of the ways that
we know we have to connect in certain contexts like dating,
are also important in friendship.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
One hundred and million percent. I'll also say this final
thing about community, because it's my Obviously you can see
how fired up we've both become. I live in this
gorgeous little neighborhood in Sydney, and it's like not a
fancy neighborhood. It's like not near the beach or anything.
And a lot of the people who live around me
are older, so they are they've lived here for a
(46:27):
long long time, Like my neighbor across the road was
born in the house that he still lives in and
he's now eighty. And don't be afraid to be friends
with people who don't meet who you think you're going
to be friends with. One of my closest friends right
now is this woman and she's in her fifties and
her name's Emma, and we do pottery together and I
(46:48):
see her every single week for three hours, which honestly
is probably more than I see a lot of my
other friends. And we've we've continuously agreed to do these
courses together. And you know, I announced my book. She
came to this like announcement party with all my twenty
something friends, and she brought like me, she brought me
a hydranger and you know my neighbor across the road,
(47:09):
his name is Frank, and like we have drinks like
out on the porch so that people will like come
and talk to us. You have to be available, but
you also have to again get rid of any preconceived
attachment to the kind of friend or community that you want.
People of different ages, people of different genders, people of
(47:31):
different like backgrounds, or even like who just never thought
you'd be friends with. Incredible, Like it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
That makes me so happy thinking of you making pottery
for three hours a week. I couldn't agree more. I have.
I have friends who are in their late forties, have
friends who are in their seventies. And those friendships are
also so interesting because you get a totally different perspective.
Not that people in their twenties and thirties are all
(47:59):
the same, certainly not. But it's so interesting to be
friends with people who are really different in age from
you because they just grew up in a different time
and they have really different stories and they can tell
you about how technology used to be. There's yeah, there's
I couldn't agree with that more, especially in a time
where we're increasingly like categorized into little boxes of people
(48:24):
generationally and esthetically and just in all the ways. Like
it's so nice to push back on that.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
It's beautiful and like, you know, the other thing, the
other really good part about being friends with like older people,
different people, like specifically older people. They're so generous. Like
my partner, I don't know if you know this is
also an attorney, and which is so funny, just another
like weird serendipitous connection between us and my neighbor Frank.
(48:52):
It was like just gave him all these like old
design of suits that he had that he didn't need anymore.
And I was just like, that's so generous and that's
so nice. And I don't know, you just people just
surprise you. And you know, we're talking about this loving
universe is beautiful universe. Gosh, like those little moments where
someone just sees you and cares about you, even when
(49:14):
it doesn't matter, you know, it's not necessarily going to
help them. It's just like so wonderful. I have two
final questions for you. The first is I want your
best advice that you have for people in their twenties,
and it doesn't have to be about what we talked
about now and then, I really want you to finish
off the episode by reading maybe your favorite poem from
(49:35):
the book. How would you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I would love to read a poem. Let me think
on my best advice for a moment here.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, we ask people this at the end of every
guest episode, because you know, I get to interview so
many cool people and no one's ever given the same
advice twice, which is like, so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I have it. This is borrowed advice from my good
friend Seanna Krueger. She's the host of the Leadership in
Yoga podcast. She's an amazingly wise human. She says something,
a lot your dreams are for people like you. I
have been thinking about that constantly this week as someone
(50:18):
who was so miserable in my twenties. It's gonna make
me cry. I felt so detached from my passions and
I felt so sad, and I felt like I had
boxed myself into a life that I didn't want so early.
And it's truly always possible for you to move towards
(50:46):
like a more loving, beautiful, true life. And so if
there is a dream that you have, maybe it's a
big dream. Maybe you want to burn your career down
and start over. Maybe you just want to find love.
Maybe you want community and friendship and people who get you.
(51:06):
Whatever your dream is, like, you have that dream because
on some level it's a fit for you, and it's
aligned for you, and it's coming for you. So I
think I think that would be my best advice. Remember
that you are a match for what you want, So
don't stop hoping. Don't think that it's not meant for you.
(51:30):
It's meant for someone who's younger or older, or has
more money or whatever. It's meant for someone like you.
And life is long. My editor Lida says that, and
you have time. You have so much time if you're
(51:51):
in your twenties, even if you're not, you have so
much time. You have time to completely start over, You
have time to meet people. If you feel like there's
no one in your life who gets you, you just have
time for anything that you want.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Again, I just absolutely totally agree with that sentiment. It's
something I wish I knew at eighteen, and again at
twenty two and twenty five, when I was just thinking
that I needed to do everything right now for my
life to have purpose, not realizing that you can do
it all. You just can't do it all at once.
So your favorite poem, because we've never done this on
(52:30):
the podcast before, We've never had a poet on this
is a special tree. Choose whichever one you want. Long short,
I want the listeners to really get a snake peek
into this incredible collection.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
So the poem I think I'll read. I'm not sure
if it's my favorite poem in the book. I do
really like it, and I feel like it really goes
hand in hand with a lot of what we've talked
about today about finding community. So it's called I Have
bad News and good News. I have bad news and
good news. If you aren't cool enough for them now,
(53:06):
the eight hundred dollars coat won't help. You can move
to a cooler part of town, they still won't want
to come over. Waiting to reply until tomorrow won't make
them text you back sooner. You can learn how to
say can and Houston Street and as ie. They will
(53:27):
find other reasons to judge you. When you work hard
on your makeup for dinner. They'll ask why are you
so dressed up. If you aren't cool enough for them now,
you never will be. But there are people who aren't
daunted by the commute to your place, don't care how
(53:49):
much your coat costs, won't bump you behind them when
the street is too narrow for three. Think you're beautiful
when you're dressed to the nines, and when you're dressed
to the one won't be scared away by your dark past,
or your bad temper or your worst mistakes, let alone
by three messages in a row. When you find the
(54:12):
right people, and you will find them, you can have
nothing and it will be plenty.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Oh that poem is really really beautiful. Oh talk the
dog that I was talking to her. That poem is
like the perfect end to this episode because I think
it fully encapsulates everything we talked about. Doing things for
you knowing that people who love you will find you
for what you're giving out. That's real and authentic. So
(54:42):
thank you so much for sharing. Where can people read more,
hear more, absorb more of your work.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
This was such a delight. It has been so much
fun to talk to you. I feel like we could
talk forever. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok
at The Daily Victorian. Make Believe I think should be
out by the time this podcast comes out. It is
out March eighteenth. It's available pretty much anywhere you get books,
(55:15):
and you can also find me on my podcast Soulgum.
It's new on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And thank you
Jimma so much for having me and for making Psychology
of your twenties. I really can't tell you how much
it's meant to me over the years, and I know
that your listeners are just so grateful for all of
(55:36):
the wisdom and vulnerability that you share a.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Lot of love in this episode. Thank you so much
again for coming on, and I will leave all of
Victoria's links Dambler. I highly highly recommend you buy this
collection of poetry if you're trying to get back into
reading as well. I always say poetry great way to
do it, specifically this collection, and as always, my lovely listeners.
If you have questions comments further, I don't know queries
(56:03):
about this episode or anything you heard today, you can
always reach out to me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast.
I would love to hear from you. Make sure you
leave a five star review and you're following along for
future episodes, We've got some good ones coming out soon,
and as always, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself,
and we will talk very very soon
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode. As we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties, there is a lot of
back and forth about what we should be doing in
(00:20):
our twenties. Even more so, I think what we should
be doing with our lives. Should we be pursuing success,
should we be content and fulfilled with the slow life?
What would make us the happiest, what would make us
the most fulfilled? Big questions, very big questions, and a
lot of us are looking for one particular answer. The
(00:43):
thing is, I don't think we ever will have the answers,
but we do have the stories of individuals who have
taken the most remarkable, unexpected paths through life and can
really share their wisdom with us. You know, what they've learned,
what they wish their younger self would know, what they
have to say about fear, and what they have to
say about finding purpose their mistakes. Today, I had the
(01:07):
privilege of getting to speak to one of these individuals,
a poet, a mental health advocate. You've probably seen her
on Instagram. A very wise woman, Victoria Hutchins, and every
piece of advice she gave today felt so important and
so life changing. Without further ado, welcome to the podcast.
Victoria Hutchins, how are you going?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hi, Jima, Thank you so much for having me. I'm
so happy to be here. I am such a rabid
fan of psychology of your twenties, so this is a thrill.
I'm delighted. I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You're doing great? Yeah, I love hearing that I'm doing
good as well. What a surprise with us both doing good?
Full moon at the moment. Have you had any creepy
things happen, any weird energy shifts?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, today has been a day. So my poetry book
Make Belief comes out on Tuesday, as we record this,
So today I went to the independent bookstore in Houston
that I'm doing the signed copies with, and signed copies,
so that was just like I was crying all day
just because it felt so special. I'm sure it had
(02:20):
something to do. It's a full moon too, because it's
also a total lunar eclipse, so it was like a
super powerful full moon.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Not gonna lie. That makes a lot of sense and
like the background of my life right now. So many
things have just happened literally in like the last twenty
four to forty eight hours. Obviously I'm such a scientific person,
but I do feel like that sometimes I really notice
when there's like shifts in just like our collective energy
(02:51):
as humans. And I definitely noticed that today, So I'm
glad I'm not the only one. I definitely also cry
today as well. So okay, she had a few tears,
maybe at the same time.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, maybe at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Okay, we've kind of jumped right into it. But I
do want you to introduce yourself to the listeners who
may not know how powerful and amazing you are.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You're so sweet, high listeners. I'm Victoria Hutchins. I am
a content creator. I'm a poet. I until recently was
a corporate lawyer. So I left my job as an
attorney about a year and a half ago to do
a bunch of different things on the internet. So it's
(03:32):
been a really strange and beautiful past few years. I
love to write and talk and think about mental health.
I love to write about nostalgia and childhood, body image,
thinking about purpose, thinking about mortality. I know that's a
(03:54):
little dark. But those are some of the themes in
make believe in things that I like to talk about.
And so makes sense that I'm an avid listener of
psychology of your twenties because I feel like you talk
about those things a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Gemma, I was literally I was listening to that being like, ah.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Tick tick, dating, friendship, would you talk about a lot too? Yeah,
all the things, Yeah, we grapple with in our twenties.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And you know what, all the things we grapple with
as humans. But you've had this like really incredible path.
And one of the big reasons I wanted to bring
you on is obviously to talk about vulnerability and hope
and art and creativity, but also to talk about big
life changes and making career shifts and career changes not
(04:36):
even later in life, but at a time when it
doesn't feel expected. So one of the big reasons that
I wanted you to come on is not just because
you are this incredible healer and to talk about creativity
and vulnerability, but also to talk about your path from
having that corporate career to doing what you do now.
One of the big series of questions and like themes
(04:57):
of questions that I get so much of people in
their twenties is I don't know what I want to
do in my life. I don't know how to figure
out that path, and I feel like I need to
decide right now and look in for this career. What
was your experience perhaps with a similar feeling.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I will say I think it's super normal to
feel that way. I definitely felt that way. And if
there's one thing that being in my thirties and having
a drastic career change at the end of my thirties
or at the end of my twenties rather and the
start of my thirties has showed me life is long,
you know, we have We have way more time than
(05:39):
we think we do, and it is normal and okay
to change your mind. I think that, at least in
the US, the education system implores you to decide what
you're going to do for the rest of your life
when you're eighteen years old, and that's just not realistic.
(06:00):
And so for me, I was always someone who loved
creativity as a child. Nothing lit me up like acting, poetry,
anything like that I loved. However, I think there's a
time for many of us where we kind of realized
(06:24):
those types of hopes aren't practical, or we start to
think that they are, and I definitely experience that. So
I specifically remember the moment that I sort of pivoted
away from the dream of doing something creative. I was
a sophomore in high school and I went to visit INYU,
which is a college in New York City, and I
(06:44):
wanted to do something creative at that time. I wanted
to be an artist or an actress. And I remember
visiting NYU and just feeling so intimidated. Everything about it
intimidated me. And I think on that trip, I kind
of I've realized, Okay, this isn't practical. Let me just
try to be really good at school, and I will
(07:05):
just go the passionless route. I will just have a
job that isn't what I'm passionate about. And look, I
still believe in that model. For a lot of people,
your career doesn't have to be your passion. But for me,
I think I always deeply wanted that. And so even
(07:28):
though I stayed the course of like going to a
super serious school, then law school, then straight to a
huge law firm, that feeling never went away. It never
went away, and so I found myself approaching thirty still
having that scratching feeling in my brain, and so I
(07:50):
think that you do not have to know what you
want to do with the rest of your life in
your twenties. However, if you have a gut feeling of
not this, it's probably not going to go away, you know.
And so I think noticing that feeling that you're desiring
(08:13):
a change is a really important step that could happen
for a lot of people in their twenties.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know. It reminds me of this beautiful saying that
if it's your calling, it won't stop calling, which I
really really like. And I think sometimes people get really
stressed because they're like, well, I don't even have one
of those yet. I love that you said we have
so much more time than we think, because it is
one hundred percent truth. We just don't realize it because
(08:40):
we are so engrossed in the moment, which is a
good thing at times. It's good to be present, but
we don't reflect on how many changes have already happened
in our lives that we've survived and we've been good
at and that have been for the best, and how
many changes are yet to come right we just see
ourselves as in this present moment. And you know, at eighteen,
(09:01):
I wanted to be a politician, Like I went to
a political science university and I just did psychology because
it was fun. And then I was working as a
management consultant, which I love that we both have these
very corporate careers where no one really knows what we
do on the day to day, but like they know,
it's you get paid for it to now doing the
(09:23):
creative thing. And I think that battle between passion and
practicality is a very, very very present one in a
lot of our lives. For you, did you have a
turning point where you were like, I cannot ignore this calling,
this voice, this creative drive any longer.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, so, I think I had a couple different turning
points in my career. There was a moment when I
was at my law firm where I had a panic
attack on a conference call. I was working a ton
and it's very hard to explain. It's the only panic attack,
(10:05):
at least like that, that I've ever had. I couldn't
feel my hands, I couldn't breathe. I thought I was
having like a medical incident. I thought I was having
a heart attack or something, and I think after that experience,
I knew something had to change. However, I didn't leave
law at that time. I went on to go in house.
(10:27):
So I went to work for a cybersecurity company. Stayed
practicing law, but it was under less demanding circumstances. I
had more work life balance. And it's funny because I
thought that that would scratch the itch, right. I thought, Okay,
now I'll have time to engage with my passions as hobbies.
(10:47):
I'll have time to practice yoga, I'll have time to write.
And the first thing that happened when I left my
law firm is I was so burnt out that every
moment that I wasn't working my new job, I was sleeping.
I think we forget that. You know, you think you're
(11:07):
going to be able to just dive from one end
of the spectrum to the other, but often you're deeply
burnt out when you leave a job that has been
draining for you for a long time. So that was
the first phase. I thought I was going to dive
into all these hobbies, and really I just slept because
it was the first time my body felt I think
(11:29):
I came out of that fight or flight after a.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Really long time, like survival mode. Almost yes, And important
to note like people think that a weekend off gets
rid of burnout. Recovering from burnouts like a six to
twelve month process.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It was long. That's so interesting to hear because that
was exactly my experience. And then after I started to
come out of burnout, I did start to engage with
my hobbies and that felt really good. But I found
that it was just I wanted more, more, more. It
wasn't enough for me to engage with my hobbies as hobbies.
(12:04):
The more I poured into them, the more I wanted
to do them, until I was because I still had
a corporate job that was pretty demanding. I was still
working eight to ten hours a day, but I would
finish that and then stay up till like three o'clock
in the morning writing poems and just be waiting for
the moment I could get away to pour into my hobbies.
(12:25):
And so I found that the moment I came back
to my hobbies, they started to swallow me whole very fast,
and so it was sort of just like rolling down
a hill versus a turning point.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
From there, I love this swell swallow mehole totally what
it feels like.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It was that your experience, because I know you worked
a corporate job before the podcast, what was that like
for you.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I was literally listening to you being like, yeah, absolutely,
I'll tell a little story, a little secret here, which
hopefully no one from my old workplace is listening, although
it doesn't really matter at this point. But I used
to do like podcast work on my work computer and
pretend that I was working, so I would be like,
(13:10):
you know, I wasn't like I was busy, but like
I wasn't you know, I was still busy, but if
I could like find time, I would literally sit there
and I'd have two documents up and one was whatever
I was working on and one would be like an episode.
And sometimes I would I would get in this zone,
like my peak hours for productivity are like seven to
(13:33):
nine pm at night, and I can just get so
much done during that period. And obviously I was working
a really intensive job, so sometimes I wouldn't finish work
until seven pm or later. And so instead of risking
that productivity period to go home and get on the train,
I would just use my work computer and then email
it to myself and would just sit there and I
(13:54):
remember this like really senior like partner, like senior director
was like, wow, you're always working so hard, like we
need to give you a promotion, and I was like,
this isn't for you guys, like I don't giving a
fuck about this job. Like I was just like, this
is for me, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I mean that makes so much sense to me, and
I relate so much. And it is when you have
a passion that's growing, nothing can stop you from focusing
on it. It's like the best productivity hack ever to
just love whatever you're doing, Like hours can pass and
you can just be. It can be like no time past.
(14:32):
I know that's a very psychologically supported thing to like
flow state, but exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
It's one of the highest forms of consciousness, highest forms
of focus, highest forms of attention. Is when you feel
equally challenged and excited by something, passionate and driven by
it as well. So this is the thing that we
can take from this. Right if you are someone who's
sitting there being like, wow, that sounds really really fun
that you two are talking about how you found your
purpose and you're calling what can I do? Like how
(15:01):
does that help me? You really need to pay attention
to the moments where you feel like you were floating
in a task or an activity, The moments where you
feel the time is just passing you by, where you
feel completely plugged in. That is what you need to
pay attention to. That urge to just do and make
(15:24):
or be or talk or whatever it is, whatever skill
or physicality or anything. You just feel like you are
just drawn to do it. That is your calling. It
might not look like a calling because you're like, how
do I make a job out of this? But explore
it more and you'll definitely definitely find it. Did you
experience any like pushback maybe from your parents when you
(15:47):
are like, hey, I'm going to quit being a lawyer,
which is a very understandable job, and become a poet
and a healer and a yoga teacher or a practicer
of yoga. What was the reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah? I think so. My parents were initially very skeptical.
I remember going home for the Christmas holidays and telling
them trying to explain because by that point it was
I was growing and I was trying to explain to them,
this is a career. People do this, because at that
time it was sort of the Internet. I'm thinking about
(16:21):
leaving my job to do the Internet. So that's not
even something they really heard of. Content creator. That was
all new to them, and so I think they were
a little skeptical. My husband was a little skeptical. I'm
lucky to have a lot of supportive people in my
life who love me a lot. However, I'm a really
(16:45):
pro change person. I would say I'm not super risk averse.
That's not the case for say my husband. He's very
like he's thinking about the risks. He's an attorney as well,
but he's more has the personality type you would think
of when you think of an attorney, like he's on
me about my taxes and the just all the risks.
(17:05):
You know, that's where his brain goes. And I try
to remember with kind of pushback that you get from
people when you want to chase a dream, I think
it comes from one of two places. Usually it's either fear,
like these are people who love you who they're afraid
that it's not going to work out and you're gonna
(17:27):
get hurt and you'll be exposed and you'll crash and burn.
And that makes sense that they feel that fear, and
that's coming from a place of love. And then I
think there's another bucket of pushback, and this I would say,
no one close to me fortunately pushed back on me
in this way. But there's people who express criticism because
(17:49):
they resent you and because they would love to do
something different, but they wouldn't try. And so when they
see someone who is willing to actually jump off the
ledge and try, that's very triggering for them, you know,
because if you anything that you don't give yourself permission
(18:10):
to do, when you see someone else doing it unapologetically,
it's very like triggering and it creates a lot of resentment.
And so I think that that's helpful for me to
remember people are either just kind of validly afraid for
you because they love you and they want you to
be safe and happy, or it really doesn't have much
(18:32):
to do with you, and it has to do with
that person and things they don't allow themselves to do.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I'm gonna pull out another quote, another saying that I
talk about on the podcast all the time. If they
can't be where you are, the next best alternative is
for them to drag you down to where they are.
And I love that one. It happens a lot normally,
not with like close family loved ones, people in the peri,
(19:00):
people who you maybe went to college with, people who
are kind of maybe in tend and with you in
their careers, people for whom their own fear is their
biggest problem not and you are a projection of all
their fears realized basically because you're doing it and everything's
(19:21):
going well, and they have this fear of doing it
and it going well or maybe going terribly, and so
there's a sense in them of like, if I was
to do this, I would fail, and here's this person succeeding,
and that's unfair because their brain has like cooked up
this like crazy scenario that they're not capable. It's a
really it's something to really watch out for, especially in
(19:43):
your twenties. And sometimes it comes down to jealousy.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, especially among women in your twenties and thinking about
creative careers that require trying publicly, you know, things like
the Internet or that's many things where you kind of
have to try publicly first. I think it's it's so
easy to not ever try because you're worried about that
type of feedback and judgment happening. Even if you don't
(20:08):
have access to it. You're worried, you're in someone's group
chat or whatever. You're worried people are making fun of
you behind your back, and it's just it's possible that
they are. Honestly, however, it doesn't have anything to do
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, and you gotta climb cringe Mountain.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That's right, Like, that's Cringe.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Mountain once you like, Cringe Mountain is really scary for
the first t one hundred meters, and then it's like
a walk in the park, Like you have to get
over the parts of you that feel like I'm not
good enough for this because someone else has told me
and I'm gonna believe them. And it's this crazy thing.
I guess what we're really talking about, as well as
imposter syndrome is it's this crazy thing where we believe
(20:45):
others judgments so quickly, but we never really trust our own.
It's like, what is it about us and how we
were raised that it's so trusting of someone else's instincts
about us, but not what we know to be true.
When you start interrogating that a lot of stuff, A
lot of spiders crawl out of dark places. I do
want to talk about your experience posting about vulnerability online
(21:10):
because I absolutely love how realistic you are about optimism
and authenticity and also mental health and self care. Why
do you think it is so important to be vulnerable
about the times when life isn't good and isn't perfect.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well, I had a really hard time in my twenties.
I had a very dark chapter, really rough mental health chapter,
just a spiral, and I think for me, when I
was navigating that, a lot of the talk around hope,
around mental health, around purpose felt super alienating. The you
(21:56):
just need to find your why, you just need to
keep hope. Those sort of things when you're really struggling,
at least for me, feel impossible. It feels completely impossible.
And so I think that the only thing that made
me feel less alone when I was in a really
(22:20):
dark place were things that showed that experience in all
of its grit, right. And so when I write about
struggling with mental health, I try to be honest about
the grit and the depths of the darkness, but also
(22:42):
show a light that's on the other side, because I
think that it's really impossible to keep hope when you're struggling, right,
but you can stay with the idea of being that
maybe hope exists in the future, and that's sort of
the vantage point I always try to write about the
(23:05):
topic of big mental health struggles. I never want people
to feel compelled to try to find hope right now,
because for me that was always impossible. But I want
people to know that it does exist in the future,
and that's worth that's worth sticking around for, that's worth
(23:27):
going through the motions of self care. That feels ridiculous
when you're really struggling, Like all of these things that
we do that often feel supportive if we're doing well,
like the gratitude journals or whatever. Often when you're really
in it, it feels so ridiculous and pointless. However, these
(23:48):
things aren't pointless. It's not pointless to go for a walk.
It's not pointless to call your friend. It's not pointless
to make a plan for next week. It can feel
that way, but I think there's so much value in
going through the motions. The title of my poetry book,
make Believe, is partially about nostalgia. It's partially a reference
(24:11):
to playing Make Believe as a child. It's also a
reference to the idea that we can make ourselves believe
in things by turning our attention to them. So when
it comes to hope, if we want to feel hope,
maybe a big part of that is directing our attention
(24:32):
towards things that suggest it exists, towards things we love
and care about. Right, And I think that even if
the emotion, even if the hope isn't there in the
first instance, the more time we spend looking for it,
the more likely it is.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
To appear psychologically on proven as well. Your brain and
you have a two way relationship, and what you feed
it and what you show it is what you believe.
So say, for example, you have very limited hope around
(25:10):
what is our purpose here on this planet? What happens
after we die? Like what is all this about? You
can focus on all the nihilistic existential thoughts that you
probably are naturally having as a human who's curious and
scared of the unknown. Or you can focus on magic
and everything beautiful that happens that there is no explanation for,
(25:31):
and the joy you feel around others. Same with maybe
you're struggling thinking like and maybe going to find love.
You can focus on all the other people saying, oh
my god, dating is so horrific, dating is so awful,
This really sucks. Or you can focus on those really
surprising love stories. You can focus on the love you
(25:52):
feel for almost everything around you and how eventually that's
going to have another place. Eventually that will land and
in the lap of someone who will reciprocate it in
the way you want it to. So I one hundred
percent agree with this sentiment and think that sometimes when
you are in litrenchius, at work, in a friendship, in
(26:14):
a relationship, just in life with your mental health, you
just have to go through the motions knowing that sometimes
our emotions do occur in cycles. Hope is bound to return.
Something you care about and something worth living is bound
to and something worth living for is bound to come
back around. I really like what you say about hope
(26:35):
is is something that sometimes just has like a mind
of its own as well, Like anyone who's struggled with
their mental health will know, sometimes you have no explanation.
I remember last year, like from the outside, my life
looked literally perfect and it felt perfect. Had this beautiful partner,
(26:55):
I have beautiful friends, I was doing really well financially,
I had purpose, and my whole life was falling apot
and in like a very drastic way. And then suddenly,
you know, I've been going through a hot period recently
which I would have every reason to completely fall apot over,
and there's just all this hype around me, and there's
just all this like it just feels lighter, and I
(27:17):
haven't done anything differently that I know of. It just
sometimes comes back around.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I was gonna say, I completely agree. It's interesting how
fickle hope is. There's a line and make believe that
it is something like hope is easy to lose and
hard to kill, and it is fascinating in a bad way.
Fascinating isn't exactly the right word. But how often I
think when these moments of everything appears to be going well,
(27:46):
often those are the most hopeless times. I don't know
why that is, you know, but these moments where where
we appear to be on top of the world so
often you hear I've experienced that myself as well, that
those are people darkest times, strange like, I really relate
to that, and I think it's I also love what
(28:08):
you said about belief and this idea that we can
control the extent to which we believe in purpose and
mystery of the world by where we direct our attention
because and I think you've dealt with this as well.
I think I remember listening to you talk about this
(28:29):
on Psychology of your twenties. But I had a big
part of my spiral in my twenties was related to
kind of spinning out about purpose and divinity and after
life and death and what happens when we die. And
for me, this idea that I'm allowed to choose what
I believe has been life changing. I'm allowed to choose
(28:55):
to believe we're doing something here, to believe to believe
we're in a loving universe, to believe we have a soul,
to believe there's something after this. I'm allowed to choose
to believe in those things and direct my attention towards
things that suggest that that's the case, or that helped
(29:18):
me believe that that's the case and that's not naive.
That's protecting my faith, right, and that's protecting it's making
me live my life in a way that that's more
joyful and more loving. And so to me, it doesn't
even really matter if it's true. It matters, but even
(29:41):
if it's not true, I'm still glad I chose to
believe in things, and so that's been that's kind of
the core the heart of make believe, And yeah, you
just touched on it really beautifully.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I have a very similar thing, which I know you
just mentioned. You know this, and I have a very
similar thought process where I was just basically like, how
arrogant of me to assume that I know what's going
to happen, but how arrogant of me to assume it's
the worst case scenario, Like every single human has thought
(30:12):
about this, but I'm the one who got it right.
Like I'm the one who was like, it's this terrible,
awful thing that happens after we die and life is
suffering and I know that fact for sure, and no
one and like, huh, like.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
We forget so change and yeah, we forget that lack
of lack of belief or belief and negative things is
also a belief, you know what I mean. It's still
just like as much of a leap of faith as
the choice to believe one percent.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And honestly, I need that tattooed in my body as
a reminder because it was this thing I kept getting
into where I was like, oh, it's going to be
it's so terrible. And I was like, wait, but there's
all these people who don't think that, and there's this
beautiful theory and I'm not sure where it's come from,
but that we get to choose. Whatever your conception of
the after life is is what happens like That's that's
(31:03):
what it's going to be. And so anytime you get
so stressed and negative about very existential questions, put all
that energy into creating what you think would be the
best case scenario and envision what that would feel like
and create a whole universe around it. That's a much
better Uh. But that's a much better reason and use
(31:27):
of your energy.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Absolutely regardless of whether it's the case after all this
it is because probably helps you live a more peaceful,
joyful present life in the here and now, to not
be obsessed over something horrible happening after this.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I love how we've just gotten totally off track and
now we're suddenly talking about death. But we are going
to take a tiny break and when we come back,
we're going to pivot and talk a little bit more
about anxiety and mental health, self care and of course
your own your book. Okay, we are back with Victoria Hutchins.
(32:07):
We are having a very in depth, deep conversation if
you are just tuning in now. We've talked about hope,
We've talked about vulnerability, We've talked about career change. I
want to talk about self care because I think that
the way we think about self care has become very commercialized,
very aligned with money and consuming more to you, what
(32:31):
does authentic self care really look like.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I think, let me start here with a very practical
thing that costs zero dollars, getting off our phones. That's
the thing that no one will sell you because it's
not in its costs money. When we get off our phones, right,
that's one of the best ways if we want to
take care of ourselves. I think being present, being in nature,
(32:57):
taking walks, all the stereotypical things, but nothing will feel
like self care if you don't do it with a
present mindset. So if you go out in nature but
you're on your phone, or you go for a walk
but you're on your phone. I think how we do
all these different things matters as much as whether we
do them right. And there's also your intention in the
(33:19):
sense of are we doing a self care activity with
the aim being to change ourselves in some way. Like
so much of self care when it comes to women
relates to beauty practices, practices that help us maintain the
(33:39):
beauty standard. And so I think that those things can
be things that are acts of self care, exercising, doing
your skincare, etc. But if we're doing these things like
from a place of I hate myself and I'm trying
to change myself, I think that that starts to break
(34:00):
down how helpful that's going to be for you. I
think self care is a lifelong.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Journey.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I struggle with maintaining a self care routine still. I
probably always will. I don't know, Jim, if you've read
the book A Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control by Katherine
Morgan Chasler, it's a great book.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, I literally have it in this room somewhere. Really
it's yeah, has it got the matches on the front?
Is this a book I'm thinking about?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I think so it has pink on the front. I
guess maybe they are matches.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think I have. I literally have this
book somewhere. Okay, it's staring at me. It's fantastic to me,
being like, you should pick me up sometimes.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I think you would like it not to be parasocial,
but based on listening to your podcast for years, I
think you would like it. But it I love that book,
and I think that it has really helpful things that
were really helpful to me around self care in the
sense of letting go of the idea of balance as
(35:12):
the pinnacle of self care. I think that it's pretty
inevitable that we're going to be consumed by different things
at different stages in our life, whether it's you're in
a really busy phase with your job, or you're dating
someone new and that's like consuming all your energy and
all your time, or you're socializing a ton. And I
(35:33):
think that sometimes self care and balance become another yardstick
that we used to tell ourselves we aren't measuring up.
And maybe self care looks less like trying to live
this perfectly balanced life where you're doing your skincare and
you're exercising, and you're doing your gratitude journal every day
and all these different little things fit in every day,
(35:57):
and more like letting chapters of your life be what
they are, being less mean to yourself when your life
doesn't look how you're shown on the internet. That it's
supposed to look. I get so exhausted by those tik
toks and reels that are like my morning routine and
they do like forty five things. It's just impossible. It's impossible.
(36:21):
And so I think that could be part of your
self care, but it also could be knowing your life
doesn't have to look like that.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The easiest kind of self care is just giving yourself
more space to do the things you want to do
and giving yourself more time to just go slower. And
that's really what changed my perspective on it, was that
it's not something that is like if someone is trying
to sell you something and say this is going to
fix you, they are selling you a lie. A face
(36:51):
mask is not going to fix you. Some you know,
new crazy diet is not going to completely rewire your mind.
Most likely a way of thinking isn't going to do
that either. What truly does change your life is slowing
down and being intentional about where things sit in your life,
(37:13):
giving yourself five extra minutes to get to a meeting
so you're not stressed, giving yourself the ability to order
take away every now and again because it makes your
life easier For me, I think that self care is
about a pursuit of ease and a pursuit of joy.
What systems can you put in place so that actually
(37:34):
you spend more time present in your life than worrying
about things from the past or things that are going
to happen. Like, it's about anchoring you in the present.
And you know what, it's taken me a very long
time to learn that. Do you have any other tips
for people, or perhaps even anxiety tips or mental health
tips that you think are underrated currently?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Well, I think that we're in an extreme isolated time
right now, and it's hard to overstate the importance of
other people in our well being, and it's easy to
forget that in a media landscape that's showing you a
picture of self care or a good life where people
(38:17):
are mostly alone, we're just not seeing much. I think
community is really really important, and we've kind of lost that.
We're at least in the US, we're such an individualistic society,
and it's very easy to when you're going through it,
(38:39):
when you're really anxious, want to hide from the world
until you're doing better. I feel that urge still, and
it's so hard to resist the urge to cancel plans
because you're feeling anxious, you're feeling upset, you don't want
to see people, you're feeling bad about yourself. I think
(39:00):
you should all be interrogating that impulse a little bit more.
And I am among the ranks of people who need
to do that. But often we isolate ourselves thinking it
will help, when really spending time with people that we
love would help a lot more. And I think that
(39:22):
the more connected we are to each other also the
more we remember that it's okay to need each other,
it's okay to need things from each other, it's okay
to call someone when you need to talk to them.
I think connection is a big part of that. And
it's a hard it's a hard time to be alive
right now between you, just the state of the world,
(39:44):
and it's very very easy to isolate in response to it.
I think it's super important that we don't.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I on agree this whole episode is just maybeing just
nodding along in the background, being like, yes, yes, tattoo
this on my body. This is my life philosophy for
people who don't have community, you know, and we're here
talking about connection, being like it is an antidote. It
is medicinal. Community is essential. How do you think people
(40:12):
can go about building it? You know? For me, when
I first moved to Sydney, I didn't know anyone, and
the way I did it was I just went to
the same places at the same time until people started
to be like, hey, I see you here. You know same.
I went to the same pilates classes on Tuesday and Thursday,
same time. I went to the same coffee shops, I
(40:34):
went to the same book clubs. And I was consistent
with that, And that's how community was built around my routine.
What would be your kind of like little tips for
maybe just even making some new friends.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I have so many because I struggled with this a lot.
So I moved to Houston for my legal job in
twenty eighteen, and the first three years when I worked
for my law firm, I was too busy to do anything.
So when I left the law firm to work for
the cybersecurity company, I had zero friends in Houston, literally
not a single friend, and I had lived in Houston
(41:09):
for three years, and so I went on this very
intentional process of making friends.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
For me.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
The things that worked, I think using the internet does help.
So if there's someone that say, you went to high
school with them, or your family friends with them, and
it looks like you might have a lot in common,
you're connected on the internet, Trying to build a banter
with someone on the internet is helpful, even just like
responding to their stories with little enthusiastic things and then
(41:39):
throwing in a hey, I notice we're both in this town.
I'd love to hang out. Like I find when you
act familiar with people, they start acting familiar with you.
And that applies in person too. So if you say
you go to a yoga class sitting you know, if
you're sitting next to someone asking them how do you
(42:00):
taking this teacher's class before, or just small little questions
and then offering up a little bit about your experience.
I haven't taken it, I've heard it's hard, or just
some little thing you can offer that implies a sense
of familiarity. People really open up in response to that.
Compliments are a super easy way to talk to people.
(42:21):
If you're in line at a coffee shop and there's
someone that looks like they could be a friend of yours,
someone who looks like they're your age, whatever, giving them
a compliment about something that they're wearing is a really
easy way to start a conversation with someone. And then
I think that the process of growing a friendship, we
(42:43):
are socialized to think that it should happen naturally. Like
thinking about friendship compared to dating, we're very aware that
with dating, there's the talking stage, we're going on dates,
We're having these intentional moments of connection, there's defining the relationship,
there's this very organized process of bonding and connection connecting.
(43:05):
We don't really have that with friendship, but it's still necessary.
I think with new friends. New friendships are very vulnerable
to fizzling out. So if it's a friendship that seems
like it's a great prospect, you're excited about this person,
you do have to be pretty intentional about it. I
think that hanging out with new friends is stressful and
(43:27):
anxiety inducing, especially if you have social anxiety. But I
would urge against canceling too much and that sort of thing, like,
be mindful that if you do that, it could fizzle
the friendship in the early stage. And of course take
care of yourself. Of course, do what you need to do.
(43:48):
But like anything else, if you want it, you have
to prioritize it. And I think that friendship is one
of those things that we're kind of made to think
it just happens, but it doesn't. You do have to
really be intentional about it.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
You have to work for it, and you have to
sometimes feel a little bit embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
M that's right.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Like you have to feel a little bit embarrassed about
double texting someone, a little bit embarrassed about being like hey,
and you know instigating, but people love an instigator, yes,
they do. Your easiest way, easiest way to build community
is to be the center of that community. That's being
the one who instigates.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
That's right, and be chalant about it, like, not notchalant.
I would like to be your friend. I the number
of times I've said that's said that I would like
to be your friend. Be clear, Be clear, because people
don't know, and people want to feel affirmed, and it's
such it's so much easier to connect when you lay
your cards on the table that that's what you're trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
My closest friends will tell you. One of my longest friends,
I saw her last night and I see her all
the time. We're very very close, known for about eight years,
and I remember we met because she was dating another
really good friend of mine who I'm still great friends with,
and I met her when they were dating and they're
no longer dating. But I said to her after the
(45:09):
first time we met, we're gonna be friends, Like I
just need you to be prepared, like we're gonna be friends.
And I felt like a guy going on a first
date with someone and going I'm gonna marry you, or like,
you know what I mean. Like it felt like that
just sends uncertainty. And I continue to say that to
people because I'm like, I'm gonna speak this into existence.
I'm being the same way that people are, like be
(45:31):
really clear of your intentions when you're dating, be clear
with your intentions when you're trying to make friends.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's right and as and once they're your friend, it
continues to be important. And it feels weird, but we're
very These proclamations of love are very normalized in romantic relationships,
but it's important to affirm your friends, like tell them,
I'm so grateful to have you in my life. You
are so important to me. I see this value in you.
(45:57):
I'm grateful for you, like all of the ways that
we know we have to connect in certain contexts like dating,
are also important in friendship.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
One hundred and million percent. I'll also say this final
thing about community, because it's my Obviously you can see
how fired up we've both become. I live in this
gorgeous little neighborhood in Sydney, and it's like not a
fancy neighborhood. It's like not near the beach or anything.
And a lot of the people who live around me
are older, so they are they've lived here for a
(46:27):
long long time, Like my neighbor across the road was
born in the house that he still lives in and
he's now eighty. And don't be afraid to be friends
with people who don't meet who you think you're going
to be friends with. One of my closest friends right
now is this woman and she's in her fifties and
her name's Emma, and we do pottery together and I
(46:48):
see her every single week for three hours, which honestly
is probably more than I see a lot of my
other friends. And we've we've continuously agreed to do these
courses together. And you know, I announced my book. She
came to this like announcement party with all my twenty
something friends, and she brought like me, she brought me
a hydranger and you know my neighbor across the road,
(47:09):
his name is Frank, and like we have drinks like
out on the porch so that people will like come
and talk to us. You have to be available, but
you also have to again get rid of any preconceived
attachment to the kind of friend or community that you want.
People of different ages, people of different genders, people of
(47:31):
different like backgrounds, or even like who just never thought
you'd be friends with. Incredible, Like it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
That makes me so happy thinking of you making pottery
for three hours a week. I couldn't agree more. I have.
I have friends who are in their late forties, have
friends who are in their seventies. And those friendships are
also so interesting because you get a totally different perspective.
Not that people in their twenties and thirties are all
(47:59):
the same, certainly not. But it's so interesting to be
friends with people who are really different in age from
you because they just grew up in a different time
and they have really different stories and they can tell
you about how technology used to be. There's yeah, there's
I couldn't agree with that more, especially in a time
where we're increasingly like categorized into little boxes of people
(48:24):
generationally and esthetically and just in all the ways. Like
it's so nice to push back on that.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
It's beautiful and like, you know, the other thing, the
other really good part about being friends with like older people,
different people, like specifically older people. They're so generous. Like
my partner, I don't know if you know this is
also an attorney, and which is so funny, just another
like weird serendipitous connection between us and my neighbor Frank.
(48:52):
It was like just gave him all these like old
design of suits that he had that he didn't need anymore.
And I was just like, that's so generous and that's
so nice. And I don't know, you just people just
surprise you. And you know, we're talking about this loving
universe is beautiful universe. Gosh, like those little moments where
someone just sees you and cares about you, even when
(49:14):
it doesn't matter, you know, it's not necessarily going to
help them. It's just like so wonderful. I have two
final questions for you. The first is I want your
best advice that you have for people in their twenties,
and it doesn't have to be about what we talked
about now and then, I really want you to finish
off the episode by reading maybe your favorite poem from
(49:35):
the book. How would you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I would love to read a poem. Let me think
on my best advice for a moment here.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, we ask people this at the end of every
guest episode, because you know, I get to interview so
many cool people and no one's ever given the same
advice twice, which is like, so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I have it. This is borrowed advice from my good
friend Seanna Krueger. She's the host of the Leadership in
Yoga podcast. She's an amazingly wise human. She says something,
a lot your dreams are for people like you. I
have been thinking about that constantly this week as someone
(50:18):
who was so miserable in my twenties. It's gonna make
me cry. I felt so detached from my passions and
I felt so sad, and I felt like I had
boxed myself into a life that I didn't want so early.
And it's truly always possible for you to move towards
(50:46):
like a more loving, beautiful, true life. And so if
there is a dream that you have, maybe it's a
big dream. Maybe you want to burn your career down
and start over. Maybe you just want to find love.
Maybe you want community and friendship and people who get you.
(51:06):
Whatever your dream is, like, you have that dream because
on some level it's a fit for you, and it's
aligned for you, and it's coming for you. So I
think I think that would be my best advice. Remember
that you are a match for what you want, So
don't stop hoping. Don't think that it's not meant for you.
(51:30):
It's meant for someone who's younger or older, or has
more money or whatever. It's meant for someone like you.
And life is long. My editor Lida says that, and
you have time. You have so much time if you're
(51:51):
in your twenties, even if you're not, you have so
much time. You have time to completely start over, You
have time to meet people. If you feel like there's
no one in your life who gets you, you just have
time for anything that you want.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Again, I just absolutely totally agree with that sentiment. It's
something I wish I knew at eighteen, and again at
twenty two and twenty five, when I was just thinking
that I needed to do everything right now for my
life to have purpose, not realizing that you can do
it all. You just can't do it all at once.
So your favorite poem, because we've never done this on
(52:30):
the podcast before, We've never had a poet on this
is a special tree. Choose whichever one you want. Long short,
I want the listeners to really get a snake peek
into this incredible collection.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
So the poem I think I'll read. I'm not sure
if it's my favorite poem in the book. I do
really like it, and I feel like it really goes
hand in hand with a lot of what we've talked
about today about finding community. So it's called I Have
bad News and good News. I have bad news and
good news. If you aren't cool enough for them now,
(53:06):
the eight hundred dollars coat won't help. You can move
to a cooler part of town, they still won't want
to come over. Waiting to reply until tomorrow won't make
them text you back sooner. You can learn how to
say can and Houston Street and as ie. They will
(53:27):
find other reasons to judge you. When you work hard
on your makeup for dinner. They'll ask why are you
so dressed up. If you aren't cool enough for them now,
you never will be. But there are people who aren't
daunted by the commute to your place, don't care how
(53:49):
much your coat costs, won't bump you behind them when
the street is too narrow for three. Think you're beautiful
when you're dressed to the nines, and when you're dressed
to the one won't be scared away by your dark past,
or your bad temper or your worst mistakes, let alone
by three messages in a row. When you find the
(54:12):
right people, and you will find them, you can have
nothing and it will be plenty.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Oh that poem is really really beautiful. Oh talk the
dog that I was talking to her. That poem is
like the perfect end to this episode because I think
it fully encapsulates everything we talked about. Doing things for
you knowing that people who love you will find you
for what you're giving out. That's real and authentic. So
(54:42):
thank you so much for sharing. Where can people read more,
hear more, absorb more of your work.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
This was such a delight. It has been so much
fun to talk to you. I feel like we could
talk forever. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok
at The Daily Victorian. Make Believe I think should be
out by the time this podcast comes out. It is
out March eighteenth. It's available pretty much anywhere you get books,
(55:15):
and you can also find me on my podcast Soulgum.
It's new on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And thank you
Jimma so much for having me and for making Psychology
of your twenties. I really can't tell you how much
it's meant to me over the years, and I know
that your listeners are just so grateful for all of
(55:36):
the wisdom and vulnerability that you share a.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Lot of love in this episode. Thank you so much
again for coming on, and I will leave all of
Victoria's links Dambler. I highly highly recommend you buy this
collection of poetry if you're trying to get back into
reading as well. I always say poetry great way to
do it, specifically this collection, and as always, my lovely listeners.
If you have questions comments further, I don't know queries
(56:03):
about this episode or anything you heard today, you can
always reach out to me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast.
I would love to hear from you. Make sure you
leave a five star review and you're following along for
future episodes, We've got some good ones coming out soon,
and as always, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself,
and we will talk very very soon
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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