Stop Worrying about What People Think of You w/ Michael Gervais

This week Scott is joined by one of the world's foremost sports psychologists, Michael Gervais. Scott and Michael discuss FOPO (Fear of People's Opinions), the importance of grounding your actions in authenticity, and the dangers of performance-based identities. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So we live in a performance obsessed culture, certainly in
the West, you know, and so it makes perfect sense
if that's the culture, that's the water we're swimming in.
So then when I go do the thing that I
love doing, or that i'm quote unquote good at, or
I've identified with, my entire identity is at stake.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
On this episode of the Psychology Podcast, it was great
chatting with my buddy Michael Gervais. Michael is one of
the world's foremost sports psychologists. It was great fun to
riff with Michael, which we did live in his studio.
In this episode, we discussed FOPO, which is the topic
of his most recent book, The First Role of Mastery.
POPO stands for fear of other people's opinions, and Michael

(00:44):
argues it's one of the biggest inhibitors of human potential.
We discussed the on ramps to FOPO, such as a
poor sense of self and a performance based identity. We
also discussed the off ramps to FOPO, such as the
importance of grounding your actions and often city and integrity,
and cultivating an inner sense of self worth and competence.

(01:04):
This was such a fun chat as it always is
with Michael, and I think you'll really learn something you
can apply in your own life to stop thinking so
much about what other people are thinking about you, and
care about what you actually think about yourself, and really
developing a strong sense of self. So, without further ado,
I bring you Michael Gervais. Michael Gervais, It's so good

(01:28):
to talk to you today. I'm still here in person
and in person, yeah, you look great, man, Thank you,
Thank you so to you.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
As always, I appreciate the way that you show up
in the world, the way that you show up in
my life, the way that you show up in my consciousness.
Like I really appreciate you, and so I'm honored to
be here.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Likewise, and I love how hardfelt you are. But this
is turning to a love fest already. We ask a
technical question quick before that's awkward. No, no, it's I
really appreciate that I loved your new book. It's really
it hit it hit you know, it's a it's a
I think a lot of people reading it will really

(02:10):
feel a personal connection to this idea of FOPO. Let
me just start off and ask, Okay, what does PHOBO stand.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
For Fear of people's opinions.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Okay, And it's a little play on fomo, right, Like
it's fun and the origin of it is fundamentally different
but related to fomo. But fear of people's opinions I
think is one of the great constrictors of one's potential.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, well, I actually I wrote a quote there that
you said that you said, our fear of people's opinions
FOPO is a hidden epidemic and maybe the single greatest
constrictor of human potential. I pulled that out because wow,
what a quote that you know, I'm all into human
potential my thing, that's kind of my thing, and uh,

(02:54):
and that that quote really stood out to me. So
fear of people's opinions? Is that just simply what it
sounds like.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, I don't think it's more complicated.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's not anxiety. It's fear. Like you chose those words carefully,
like fear is a strong word, right, But we do
seem to have a great fear for things that it's
ridiculous that we're fearful over, you know, like talking like
social anxiety. I don't think it's social fear for a
lot of these people. It's not just anxiety. Right, there's
a fear there.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, So the reason I work from the fear base,
So anxiety for me is an excessive worry, you know.
And so there's a problematic note to the word anxiety, right,
it's maladaptive. Fear is adaptive. There's a reason that we
should have and need to have fears. And the fear

(03:46):
that I'm pointing to here is a fear that doesn't
get enough attention. We're afraid of, you know, people holding guns.
That's probably a good thing, right, you know, the point
is all I don't want them, Yeah, right, Yeah, we're
we're we're if we should. We ought to be afraid
when we're standing next to heights, We ought to be
afraid when there's heat in the environment, there's a flame.

(04:09):
We ought there's things that we're supposed to be afraid of. Yeah,
and and one of the things that I know you
know this, So I'm I'm speaking just to make sure
we're on the same page with these things. And please,
like I respect your acumen and your science acuity, so well,
like please poke holes, point at it, let's wrestle it down,

(04:30):
let's have fun.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
With Wait till we get to the Neuves science chapter.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, good, So so to when a saber to tiger
or a grizzly bear or a wildebese is running towards us,
there's supposed to be a fair response. We're not even
going to think about it. We're going to mobilize our
bodies to be able to fight, fight, freeze, sometimes submit.
And but what we what we don't point to enough,

(04:54):
is that hundreds of thousands of years ago, if we
didn't perform well in the tribe, if we if you
and I are in we're in the same tribe, and
we're expected to go do something and we come back
empty handed too many times, or we come back and
we we screw up, or we're distraction to something. All

(05:14):
it took were a couple people and maybe some senior
folks in the tribe to look at us a certain
way and squint a little bit, have a little bit
of disdain and say, you know, Scott, you know, Mike,
I think this is about the end of the road
here for you. It's time to go. That was a
near descence, because now we have to hunt and gather
and forge and protect. And you know, if you've got

(05:36):
a couple of kids and I got a couple kids
and an aunt and maybe an uncle, and maybe there's
eight of us. It's a near descence to be able
to fend in the wild. So other people's opinions matter,
they're mattered. Yes, it's like really mattered and really mattered.
And so that that's why we're we're very sensitive to

(05:58):
picking up slightest reaching action because one hundred thousand years
ago that was that was a near does sence? You know,
it's not the same anymore, same operating system, different conditions.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's we think back. Well,
for I was, I was touched by your story of
your mentor who said some offhan comment about like why
are you like behind this you know on the TV
or whatever, And you took it so personally for how many.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
Years, I mean over a decade.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Isn't it incredible? How like a comment of like one
person can like we can obsess and just remember it
for so many years, And why does it penetrate us
our soul?

Speaker 1 (06:36):
It got so much that comment that throw a comment
by him, It just got in.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
And do you remember his name?

Speaker 3 (06:43):
Oh yeah, yeah, of course yes.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
I don't know if you repressed his name because it's like.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
No, no, no, I didn't put in the book because it's
really I didn't want him to feel a certain way
like and yeah, so but it got in and the
throwaway comment was, I was so excited that I was
working with a UFC fighter. This was you know, early
days in the UFC, and we practiced everything you know

(07:12):
as a sports psychologist. We dialed everything in and he
had a great camp. We did really good, honest internal work.
And fight night in Vegas, I don't know, twenty thousand people,
millions of people watching, and he's walking the five steps
up to get into the cage. All there's three coaches, myself,

(07:33):
the head coach and the striking coach, and we were
following him as we're told to do and then stay
on the outside of the octagon and kind of meet
him at his point. And so we did exactly that.
But to do that, we happened to cut in line,
cut in front of the camera, like that's where we're
supposed to be walking. So my mentor calls me on

(07:55):
my drive home it says just a throwaway Commet was like, yeah, congratulations,
but what are you doing in front of the camera,
Like that's not where.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Sports sykes are supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Did you say that too?

Speaker 3 (08:06):
That's how I took it.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Maybe he just simply meant like I noticed that you accidentally,
you know, like when I took it a whole different way.
It was my internal narrative and drama and concern.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
And actually I kind of liked that I was in
the in the in the fold of it, and it
was exciting and like I'm not supposed to say that.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
Out loud, but I did. I totally get it, you know.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I liked it, and I felt part of something that
was big and special and it was not about me,
but I liked that I was part of it.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
And then just this dig right in the.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
You know, a knife right in the liver, and I
was like, I didn't know what to do with it,
and so I metabolized it. And I was a you know,
a good practitioner, and I just kind of folded back
into you know, the recesses, which is cool, no problem,
Like I knew my place, but it I don't think
I did it an honest service to what I wanted

(09:02):
to do, which is celebrate this beautiful science that we
both love, like put it, put it on on front street,
like talk about the power of psychology and point to
the strong humans that are doing the vulnerable, risk taking
internal work to go to the frontier. We have to

(09:22):
we have to celebrate that work. And so I pulled
back and so that it was about a.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Decade knowing what you know now. And let's say that
happened again, that you took you took a time machine,
you went back there and you had alreadytten this book,
like you know, you had the mind of you today.
How would you respond differently to that? Would it just
bounce off you?

Speaker 3 (09:44):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
I so I don't think. Okay, be clear, I am
the book. The subtitle is stop worrying about what people think.
It's not stop caring so nice, right, So I can't.
I do deeply care about the people who care. So
the people that are on the the inner circle that

(10:08):
I know they've we've spent enough time under tension that
I know they care.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I care too.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, And so the worrying so back in time. So
he says that comment. What I would like to hope
I do is that I'm more available to see it.
So I know the water I'm swimming in that other
people's opinions really matter. So i'd see the water, I'd
see that ripple just a little bit easier, and then
and then it wouldn't be like nonchalantly bouncing off, but

(10:37):
I would see him as opposed to just like feeling
that it's my thing, so I feel like that's my
hope would be I'd see him.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, it was in the comment. Yeah, and I think
it was just really interesting. You said you saw him
later on life and he looked really frail, and you
kind of just saw him in a different way.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, I saw him in different way.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Something somewhere happened to me too, with a school psychologist
when I was ten years old or seventeen years old,
who said, you know, you're not smart enough to be
in gift education and drew a bell curve on a
napkin for me and kind of pointed out where I was.
But I saw him years years, years years later, like
only a couple of years ago, in the park, and
he was very old and frail, and there was a

(11:17):
certain sort of humanity there where I was like, oh,
I didn't even I didn't even feel the need to
bring it up, you know. I talked to him, and
I noticed you didn't even feel the need to bring
it up at that moment.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
There's something about that. I experienced that too with someone
similar way.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
So wait, you had you had a moment. I know
some of this in your origin story, right, I know
some of this part, but you're mapping the faux po.
So the book triggered that for.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
You, triggered many things, that's one thing.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
But one of them is that you had that initial insult.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
And I fear of Yeah, oh yeah, I thought I was.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Changed you in some way.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
I say it, I metabolized it, like I took it in,
I swallowed it it.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
And then and then when you saw.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
That that that person you had compassion, You didn't feel
the need to fight or to defend.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Very old and frail, And I think that you know, now,
as an adult, I could be like, oh, he probably
meant well, I don't think he was pernicious. But at
the time it actually fueled me. It fired me up
to become who I am today. So I wondered, to
what extent can our fear of people's pins actually can
it be a motivating force to like disprove people wrong?

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think wrong?

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, maybe even both right, But I think the answer
is clearly yes, and so can O c D and
anxiety and narcissism and so all of those I have.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah, just go down the list, Michael.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
Social pathology.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
No, probably, I'm not.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
Okay, you're not torturing little little dogs.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Not so. But all of those.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Traditionally considered maladaptive responses to wellness and well being, put
in the right context in certain environments, can fuel us
to be maybe the best in the world, maybe maybe
our our very best, but not necessarily joy and happy
and flourishing. So yes, chip on your shoulder might get

(13:21):
you really good enough. Anxiety might get you to work hard,
but it doesn't allow you to get there right wherever
there is for you.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, it's not sustainable in the long run to be
fueled by that emotion, but it can be a nice launching.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Bad I know it too.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
It launchs me to like prove everyone wrong and you know,
be like I'm going to put a CARDI email and
screw you all, you know, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, would you? Would you trade it? That approach that?

Speaker 2 (13:47):
You know? I think it's what made me Yeah, me too,
in a way. Yeah, no, not a way, And it did.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
It's part of me. It's part of my history. Well
who am I outside of my genes and my history? Right?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
The way you interpret your experiences, well that's that part.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
I forgot about that. But how we interpret our experience
as a result of our genes and our experience, I
think that's fair. There's nothing outside. You know, we can
get into the topic of free will. Because I was
reading your book, like you have this section like you're like,
what's one hundred percent within your control? You know? And
I'm like, is anything one hundred percent within your control?

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Though?

Speaker 3 (14:24):
I think so?

Speaker 2 (14:25):
It sounds like you do.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah, so I just had suppose Kate.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh he didn't agree with that though.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
So his book determined is it? You know, is like flat.
He's like, look, you're living in a fantasy land, right right. Yeah,
he goes, you probably you probably believe in Easter Bunny,
and and you know, he was like like he's on it,
and you yeah, he was great, and he was smart,
and he was wonderful and and and and he still
wrestles with it too. So he slips into the free
will narratives. Yeah, and I slipped into FOPO and like,

(14:53):
so you know, like we're studying the things that we
need to study for a reason.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
But you do think we can distinguish between things that
we don't have control over and things we do have
control over.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think that volitional control is a
real thing. And once we become aware of once we
become aware of the thoughts that are impacting our emotions,
or once we become aware of the triggers that impact
thoughts and emotions, like, yeah, I think we can.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
We have the the.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Available skills to build to work with those potential micro choices.
But when you're numb, when you are working like below
the surface, you know, it's all kind of in football
we call it bang bang plays like it happens so
fast that you know, you didn't really have a chance
to respond, is it bang bang? And so like that's

(15:49):
when you're kind of asleep to what's actually happening inside
of you. But once you work on awareness and you
honestly invest in the study of yourself, whether that's their meditation, practice,
conversations with people of wisdom like you, journaling, those are
the big three for me. Those are the ways that
we can practice studying self. And with that, I think

(16:10):
we do have micro choices.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, those things do help for sure.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
So you wait, where are you in the side of
free will?

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Where do those choices come from?

Speaker 4 (16:18):
See?

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Ultimately, ultimately there's nothing outside of our biology or environment.
There's no I don't believe in a magical sauce that
gives us a will that's independent of the force the
laws of nature. So someone could ask, well, where do
those things? Where does that come from? Those choices? But
I do believe that the things you just describe our
free will is a free wild worth wanting, you know.

(16:38):
And I have a broad and broader definition of free
will than Sepolski one that I think you would like,
yeah or yeah like.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
And I understand I've been conditioned by the world I
live in, philosophically and otherwise, and so at some level
I'm attracted to the deterministic approach. There is something that
is really interesting about trying to solve that rubric.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
But I don't want it, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
William james said, my first actor free will will be
to not believe in free will. Or no, I try
that again. My friend William Jameson said, my first actor
free will will be to believe in free will will. Yes,
that's right, Yes, it sounds like, well that's what you're saying.
You're saying like fuck you. Yeah, like a deterministic world.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
I think it's interesting. It's like a really interesting puzzle
to try to solve. It's bigger than anybody can solve
right now because we don't according to like Sepolsky's approach,
like if we could determine everything that or characterize and
quantify and calculate all the things that have uniquely happened
to you. Of course, Mike, you're gonna pick this Jasmine tea.

(17:46):
Of course you're gonna pick it, right, because there's no
other real option you just think there is.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, And you just reminded me that I have tea here,
So I wouldn't have been able to do that if
you didn't remind me. So it's not like I made
the choice to that I to remember to have the tea. No,
So everything is prompted by and if you go farther
back in the causal chain. That's point.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
That's his point.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
And I think he's right with what he's saying, but
he's leaving out a lot of emergent humanness, that's right.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, Like Qualia, I'm gonna peppermint. No, this is not peppermint.
This is a blue butterfly.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
And I was wondering because it's like it looks blue.

Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah, it's a blue butterfly.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Like, are you poisoning?

Speaker 1 (18:24):
They did not have peppermint or meant for you. But
this is a really interesting, non caffeinated blue butterfly. Okay, yeah,
I love I love boutique tea.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Actually that's really good.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah it's different.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, I'm down cool. Uh sorry, do you we're about
say something?

Speaker 1 (18:39):
No, I'm just if there's an interactionist approach, I would
check the box there, right, like an interaction between free
will and of course the determinants for favor.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Maybe there's something unique about humans that you don't see
another app animals. You know, the human consciousness can give
us all sorts of possibilities and possible futures, you know.
But maybe we should go back to photo.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
We have a whole conversation about Listen. I oh, yeah,
I'm following your lead, and I've been really excited to
have this conversation me too.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, oh my god, for a while. I'm gladly do it.
I want to get into the mechanics of faux poe
a little bit. I love this cycle. Uh, this loop,
this loop. As you put it, you have this anticipation phase,
then the checking phase, and then the response phase. Do
you mind going through each of those three and just
explaining what they are?

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, and I'm I hope as I describe these some
of the academics in your world and researchers might want
to collaborate on on to actually test this right, because
this is all theoretical at this point. And so anticipation
phase is all of the massination machinations that take place
prior to a engagement with another person. So this is like,

(20:00):
this is the bulk of the time spent in faux po.
It's the internal wondering what somebody later might be thinking. So,
for example, you're gonna go to a holiday party and
you go into your closet and you say, what am
I going to wear? What do I think other people
are going to wear? And who's going to be there? Well,
Susie's going to be there, and man, I've been wanting

(20:21):
to talk to Susie for a while. Do you think
she would like this or that? So it's that type
of like very subtle trying to anticipate favor or approval
from another person and or avoiding rejection. So FOPO is
all about acceptance and rejection management. So that's the anticipation phase.

(20:41):
And then the second phase is once you're actually in
front of a person, and again this is marked by
a fear or worry. Okay, non clinical, so we haven't
risen to the level of like it's a there's a
DSM code to it.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
It can feel clinical.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
Sometimes it can feel clinical.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, oh it can be if it is one of
the great constrictors of people's potential, that this might be
the beginnings of something that makes it later one day
into but it's we're just at the beginnings of it.
So the second phase is the checking phase. So you
and I are together and there is a very specific

(21:16):
mechanism that I am doing. I'm not immune to this.
I'm not a sociopath, I'm not fully enlightened. I'm not
the narcissist, you know. So I'm checking because I value
you and I value the social harmony that we would have.
But so I'm checking to see if I'm okay, are
we okay? Is this okay? But I'm not doing it.

(21:38):
So this is where I've come a long way, I'm
not checking right now at the at the abandonment of myself.
So I'm not going to contour or confront or conform
to just you finding just so that you'll favor me.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Smart, right, smart.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
But before that's what I found myself doing, I would
abandon much of myself. Nobody knew it, nobody would know it,
but I know. So there's this checking. It's constantly checking
micro expressions. It's trying to make sense. Are we good?

Speaker 3 (22:16):
You know? Am I okay? Are we okay?

Speaker 1 (22:19):
And so then that's the checking, and it's expensive to
be in that type of relationship. It's expensive as a
human organism to be in that anticipation phase. And then
the third phase is the responding phase. So now at
the slightest hint of potential rejection, so I see your

(22:41):
frontalis muscles tighten up, there's a slight little frown. You
cock your head just a little bit, and you lower
your chin just a bit, and you look at me
in this way like what did you just say? And
so I know you didn't just do that, but I'm
picking up as much as I possibly can. And then
in that response, I do I either fully control okay,

(23:01):
So that that's a big one, right, Yeah, I do that. No,
but maybe I just shape shift a little bit. I
call it conforming, contort, conform. Maybe I'll confront you did
I say something?

Speaker 3 (23:15):
What just happened? Like, oh you didn't disagree? Huh okay.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
So it could be confront like that, or it could
be confront like wait, wait did I miss something? Now
I'm giving myself a second chance to try to to
navigate that.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
For approval your scanner.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, no, so that's the checking phase.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah. But the people who are scanners, they are so
attuned to the slightest changes. And that's right, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
And so we can also call them high EQ high
social intelligence.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
That's more positive, that's more positive. Scanning is a term
used with wordlind personality.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's right, that's right, And that's used for manipulation. That's
used for like secondary gain. And so so contort, conform, confront.
This is kind of fun, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
No, it's great.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
And then the other one is critique. And so what
we do with critique is like say I think that
there's some it's not it's going a little sideways.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
I might say, hey, what do you think about Roger?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Now?

Speaker 1 (24:09):
I'm going to critique Roger to pair bond with you
at Roger's expense. So the critique mechanism is a way
to pair bond and into actually at the cost of
somebody else. Sometimes I'll critique you. So if I critique
you and and my vengeance is attacking you, you're no

(24:30):
longer like critiquing me, okay. And then the last is like,
if this is too much and I'm exhausted by this
checking and I don't like how I'm responding around you,
I'll just disconnect. I just pull away from the relationship
and I'm not going to confront. I'm not going to
do any of these things, like I'm just too overwhelmed
because I don't feel like if you this is like

(24:50):
the the borderline, back to the borderline, I'm going to
disconnect before you ever have a chance to do.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Right, And so that's a little bit a nod to
those two.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Because you know, a lot of ways bordline is an
extreme version of FOPO.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, I think same with a lot of stuff exactly.
You know, like there's such an original insult somewhere that
you're not good enough, and then we create these maladaptive
but survival approaches to life. Call that personality.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
But like I believe reality alignment is what it's all about.
You know what does that mean to Well, in certain instances,
I may not be enough and just admitting that to myself,
you know, the thing is, why do I always have
to defend my ego like some fort at all times.
That's just doesn't seem healthy. Actually, I'm working on a

(25:44):
new book right now, which I won't talk about the topic,
but I have a section in there with the title
are you an impostor? Because with an imposter syndrome, no
one ever actually like entertains the fact. Well, actually you
might be an impostor. You might be feeling imposter syndrome
because you're a fucking imposter. It's right, yeah, Well every
book you read on this is like trying to make
people feel good, you know, like, oh, well, you know,

(26:07):
don't listen to Peters blah blah blah blah blah blah.
And it's like, okay, you know what, you start med
school right, like, you're an imposter. You're not. You're not
a like twenty year veteran yet have humility and that's good.
That can be adaptive, that can be adaptive. Do you
see what I'm a.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Thousand percent like, so imposter syndrome. The way I relate
it from a sport and performance psychology standpoint is, if
you want to ski a line in the back country
that maybe has never been done before, or you haven't
skied it the way you want to ski it, with
the speed you want to ski it, you don't know,
you don't know, you don't know what you're gonna feel like.

(26:42):
So you've got to conjure up this ability that I'm
going to do something I've never been done, that's been
done before, either by me or anyone else.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
Perfect And so.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
There there isn't getting over your skis approach to imposter syndrome.
But that is where growth happens. It's where adaptation takes place.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Thank you, yeah, so, thank you.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
So that's the idea.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah you still you still move You can feel imposter syndrome,
but still move forward. And that's that's you know, but
both things can be true at the same time. You
don't always have to get rid of the feelings of
you know, like that's the thing that I that I
think I criticize with a lot of the advice if
you feel imposter syndrome is like everything these days, and self
help seems to be like get rid of the uncomfortable motion,

(27:22):
you know, like.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
No, no, no, stay in it longer. It's yeah, stay in
it longer.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
And I think this relates to what you're talking about
and used to the difference between caring and fearing really
relevant to this discussion, right, because you can you're human, right,
and you're not a psychopath, So you can be like, Okay,
that's stung what that person just said and or the
way I'm interpreting it stung. But then you can get
curious about it. You can do all the things but

(27:49):
still be with that feeling. And I love that approach.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
And and the thing that I want to just double
click on is that there's a funnel exercise that it's
nothing novel, but like who whose opinions do you want
to care about? And I just I just did the roundtable.
You know, I live I live in a city that
is kind of attuned to this, but like Rodondo, you know,
the round and so like who's on your roundtable? And

(28:17):
I don't want a huge roundtable neither. Yeah, And so
you can you can extend it like people that are
in the room, but not on the roundtable, but like
tuned to the roundtable. And if you invited people as
guests in the room, that's cool, but it's not a
big room now. So if somebody says something to me,
like Mike, I don't know why you wear blue and
black so much.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Those are the.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Colors I like much, And now I don't know that person.
Like this tea it is, Yeah, that's a vibr this
is a butterfly.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
You're like, oh, it's just the butterfly, be stinging tea.
I'm like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
See how well you're thinking here in twenty minutes sounds good?

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
So like but if somebody really close that I know
cares and has an awareness about color and satata and
they kind of talk to me, I'm like, oh, okay,
tell me more.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah yeah, So anyways, I love it.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, I think we're aligned there for sure. What are
some on ramps to faux po and then I also
want to know what are the all ramps and let's
definitely get to the off rams. Yeah, but what are
some on rams?

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Well, one on ramp, Like I think the big on
ramp is performance based identity. So we live in a
performance obsessed culture, certainly in the West, we do, you know,
and so it makes perfect sense if that's the culture,
that's the water we're swimming in, that the emergence of
a performance based identity makes perfect sense, okay. And so

(29:48):
a performance based identity is my identity is wrapped in
primarily how well I do what I do relative to
other people. So it's very different than a off ramp
purpose based identity. So the on ramp to faupo is
I am what I do relative to how well I

(30:10):
do it to other people. So then when I go
do the thing that I love doing or that i'm
quote unquote good at or I've identified with, my entire
identity is at stake. And typically what is the holder
of power in those environments are the observers. Okay, So
let's say that public speaking one of the great fears

(30:33):
for so many people. In most public setting, whether public
speaking is taking place, there's not a sniper in the
first balcony row. There is not somebody with a you know,
some sort of handgun in the first that that when
you make a mistake, game over, it's more of a
death of identity, yes, right, because you're going up on

(30:54):
stage to perform, and your identity is commingled with your
performance ability, and if you stutter, if you missque, if
you're off base on your logic, if if the most
dangerous thing in those environments are the eyeballs of other people.
So the on ramp to great care about people's opinions

(31:20):
is when you have a performance based identity. And I
think detangling that is a bit trickier than it sounds,
but I would say that just take a look like,
is your identity wrapped into what you do and how
well you do it? And if you go, yeah, it
kind of is, and say, okay, I'm not going to

(31:42):
say detangle that. I'm going to say, let's see if
we can override it. Let's see if we can saturate
it with something bigger and more powerful.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
You say, what is that?

Speaker 1 (31:51):
This is the off ramp develop a purpose based identity.
So if you think about every one of your historic heroes,
anyone you fill in the blanks from mother Teresa at
a Gandhi to oh yeah how about it? Yes, I
couldn't hear you. So you go to all of the greats.
They are purpose based? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
They are. They it's such a good point. I've been
trying to think in my head how I overcame my
fear of speaking, because that was a real serious issue
for me when I first started out twenty thirteen, right
now came out.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Now, look, prof come on, are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 (32:29):
So it was a real thing for you.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yes, So when I started out, it was a huge
source of anxiety. But what I have done the last
ten years to really help me overcome this is that
part of when people think of SBK or Scott very Coffin,
they think, oh, he's a little weird, he's a little
he's a little awkward, And I just own that part
of me now, and so I'm not nervous on stage

(32:52):
because I'm just Does that make it so not purpose
as much as authenticity?

Speaker 3 (32:55):
That's authenticity?

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, that authenticity, Well, I would want to know what
your purpose is because you can. So authenticity is awesome.
There's freedom in that, and then what do you do
with that freedom? Where are you pointing? And if you
can point to something that is bigger than you, it
matters to you. It's good for fill in the blanks,
and you're really about it, like you're honestly, really about it,

(33:18):
You don't. The authenticity just kind of happens. That's true, right,
because it's more like you are working to find the
right words to string together, and you care so much
about the inspiration of moving people towards maybe enrolling them
in it, or understanding what the purpose is, so you

(33:39):
become the narrow more narrow in focus to the task
rather than like, am I okay in the eyes of others,
that just fades away? And that is authenticity, how about it? No?

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think that's that's spot on. You just stop thinking
about yourself when you're foocused on you know, your excitement
to share something with someone else.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Did you pick up in the book?

Speaker 1 (34:07):
I don't know if I was demonstrative enough about this,
but my aversion to the self industry?

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, oh yeah, did.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
That come through?

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Did it come through? It come through? You said so
much that I think i've quote here. You said, yeah,
like so much of the self help industry is obsessed
with the self. Yeah, why does it the self help
industry fuel the obsession with self? Yeah? It's like, yeah,
you're really wondering that, and I think it's such a
good point. I wrote an article once I was like,

(34:40):
you never go to the bookstore and see the other
help section.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
Oh my god, that's great.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, that is great, all about self help, you know.
And it's it's perplexing considering we know how good it
feels to help others and how not good it feels
to be so obsessed with yourself.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, and that if I get that, we got to
put our vest on for our lifevest on first. And
that's where the probably the benevolent approach to self help started.
But man, if we keep just nasal navel gazing, if
we keep focusing on being better for the sake of
being better, like, it's nauseating. So I'm down with like,
we're more like a coral reef, you know, and be part,

(35:22):
be a contributing member of a of a beautiful, flourishing
coral reef.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
And our coral reef right now is pretty poor.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
That's a whole other topic.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
It's a different topic. Yeah, but like, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Well, what what are off? So what if you're like, okay,
I want to get off the fauco train.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah yeah, Well I think purpose base I think it's
a big one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
I think purpose based identity is if you just if
you got really clear about your purpose And that's not
an easy bit of work to do, but.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
It's worth it. It's like it's the kind of work
that's hard, but it's worth.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
And if you say, okay, man, I've been thinking about
this for a long time, I don't know where do
I start start with?

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Like what is your purpose for today? Okay?

Speaker 1 (36:05):
What is your purpose for this week? What is your
purpose for this holiday season? What is your purpose for
like twenty twenty four? So you can thin slice it
to practice it for a while, and then over time
you're practicing this idea of purpose and underneath the underneath
the current if you're having conversations about big life purpose

(36:26):
with people that you respect, or you're writing about it,
or you're reading about it, and you carve out enough
discipline time or time where you can be disciplined with
like thinking about the time that you're here, the hell
you're doing with it, and so like, it's it's not
that it's unavailable, it just is a muscle that we

(36:47):
don't practice properly because we're spoon fed so much. We've
been shoveled, you know, this performance based identity that we
haven't just we haven't blossomed or hydrated or metabolized any
of the purpose to based stuff. So it's it's good work.
It's good honest work.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
I want to know more about you. Why you said
this hits for you?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Oh my god, I don't want to turn this into
a psychotherapy session.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
No, two guys.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
I mean there's just been a lot of instances in
my life, like because I'm a highly sensitive person. So
I think these things hit more for HSPs. That's the thing.
Hs fifty percent of the population. Michael or HSPs.

Speaker 5 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it sounds silly, No it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah, but HSPs, you know, just you feel things more deeply.
You just feel everything, you know, so like super Having
to just over the course of my life not take
everything so personally and so deeply has been a journey
for me. And I think I've I've come a long way.
Maybe overcorrect we're now. I don't give a fuck up.

(38:01):
I'm not anyone, no joking, but.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
You need a roundtable.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah, OK, let's get your round I think our different
correct too much.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, I really, but I really don't. I mean, I'm joking,
but you know, I am at the point where I like,
don't really take things personally anymore. You know, I really
like always trying to, you know, think, oh, well, what
is true in that? What's not true in that? You know,
is that where is it coming from? What's the intentionality?

(38:32):
Et cetera. But not in my twenties, oh boy, especially
approaching women. And that's that's the thing, you know, we
don't need to go into great detail about, but in
my twenties, in my twenties, I think a lot of
young men have a fear of approaching women. I should
coin the a W f OD fear of approaching women.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Fear of women's opinion. Oh there you go, or f
A f O A W or f O W.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I can't be the only twenty two year old that
had a fear of women's opinions, right, No, that must
be a common thing among young men. But you know,
how do you deal with that? How do you develop
the inner sense of self esteem that's not so dependent
on whether you get rejected or accepted, you know, And
I'm sure there's plenty of women that also have a
fear of being rejected too. For men, it's a very

(39:22):
common human experience. But that was a big one for
me in my twenties.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
So you had a phase where fauco fear of it
happened to be a woman, but fear of the other's
opinion of you was in.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
A romantic context being rejected.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, right, Yeah, it is intimate.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, because you're putting yourself out there, which is required
and you have to do it, you have Yeah, and
it's dangerous. Yeah. Well my mom says, Scott, you're never
going to find So if you don't leave your room,
Oh my.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
God, you really went there, didn't you. Yeah, we mad
edit that out.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
We've man at that out.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Oh yeah, So that that.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
That idea is the intimacy of of bringing yourself forward. Yes,
and then if if you're callous and you don't care,
like then you never you don't bring the sensitivity into
the into the relationship.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
You actually increase the chances they'll be attractive to you
if you bring us all.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
That's all. That's a difference.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Interesting though, the bad boy. There's something to the bad boy.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, yeah, because you know what, the bad boy might
protect me because he in care, like he might step
in front of a bully, might he might tell the other,
you know, a predator over there, like to back up, like.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I'm a bad boy, Now are you part of my journey?

Speaker 4 (40:40):
Are you? Are you really? I don't see your neck tattoo?
Is that coming?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
That's hidden? It's hidden?

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Yeah, right, hidden?

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah, hidden bad boy? Yeah? Cool.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
No. But but so that I think that's a big
one for a lot of people. You know, it's a
big part of the foco journey for people who's within
the romantic demean And then so the off ramp there
is what like if we just double click on that
tomean Let's say you're approaching someone. Let's say let's say
it's someone that you've been friends with a while, and
you are like, hey, I'm actually catching feelings for you

(41:13):
or whatever. That was maybe not a smooth way of
putting it, but whatever is that whatever the smoothest way
of saying that is. And then and then the person's like,
now I'm good. How do you you know? Off ramp
your faux po in that situation?

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Oh, I think you back yourself.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
So in sport, we've got what's really interesting in elite
sport is you've got sometimes you know, the ratio is
one to one, one coach per athlete, or it's like
it's small groups, you know, one coach for four athletes.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
So in the in the real world, we don't.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Have that ratio at work, right, we don't have like
a coach that's supporting and challenging us and seeing us
and knowing us and like holding us accountable and understanding.
But we need to get better at say socially or
tactically in business or email writing. Like, we don't have it.
So we're kind of on our own. But what great
coaches do is they see the person, they understand what

(42:12):
they're trying to work on. They create, they co create
an idea of what could be if we really did
some really great work together. Like so that's using imagination
for a better future. And then we make that image
so clear that we could almost feel the fabric of it.
We nod our head and we commit to each other.

(42:33):
So the coach and the athlete commit to each other
to go on that adventure. And if we make it
bold enough, it's like do you think though, yeah, I
think you know, and you know what, let's do it
in the right way together. That's like, how are we
going to coach each other? How are we going to
be in this thing? And then the athlete will say,
I don't know, man, give it to me straight, he
goes straight. Are you sure straight? Okay, well maybe maybe

(42:56):
not publicly, you know, Like so that you start to
calibrate the that you want that relationship with coach and
an athlete. Okay, So there's a calibration there on how
to be coached.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
My point is.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
We become sophisticated in the way that the coach speaks
to the athlete. So that's coach speak. And then if
you take that for just a moment, because we don't
have that in our daily lives and we talk now,
replace it with self coaching is what I'm talking about, right, Okay,
So when I say back yourself, a great coach will say,
keep going.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
I know you just dropped it.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Keep going, put your hands here, like, keep going, you
got this, Like get back out there. What do you
There's no time right now to like come on now,
we'll process this thing later.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
So so so back yourself like a great coach would
back you like the greatest coach you can imagine. Most
coaches are so kind and they are so connected to
support that they really want to see you be great
and they dedicated their life to it. The ones that
go sideways they're in it for themselves. Yeah, okay, and

(44:07):
so and we know who they are. You can feel
it like this person's in it more for themselves than me. Yeah, okay,
So be a great coach to yourself. That's a trainers
like that.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
I feel like it's more about them beating me up.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
And it's about the way they look, yeah, and then
the way they're perceived. And like as a bad coach.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Now, I love the self coach idea. As you know,
I'm starting a form of coaching called self actualization coaching.
But there's no reason why we can't be our own
self actualization coaches. I had Dick Schwartz on my podcast
recently and was founder of Internal Family Systems Therapy, and
he actually did therapy on the spot about this topic
of fear of you know, women on you with Family

(44:54):
System fifteen minute psychotherapy session with Dick Schwartz and attitude
in Cool can come out soon. Yeah, and he uh,
it was really I mean it was really emotional. I
was getting really emotional because I was tracing it back
to this time I was rejected in summer camp at
age ten. He does a lot there, right, Yeah, and
he really helped me find you know, another part of

(45:19):
myself that's going to be that inner coach for me
and that so it just so relates to what you're
just saying. He's like, he's like, who is you know
this other guy that takes that and kind of like says,
just brush it off, bro, keep going, you know who's
that friend? Can you have that friend inside you in

(45:39):
your ear? I just thought it was really transformational.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
And and can you So there's like if we're not
if we're not sophisticated here, we think that coaching ourselves
can come from a voice of like critique and judgment.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
That's not good enough.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
What are you gonna do? You're gonna you're gonna sit here,
or you're gonna get it doesn't have to be anything
close to that.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
I can actually be supportive.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah, go find that.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
So if this is what I would I do with
athletes all the time, Like, can you point to a
coach that you had in your life that was amazing?
What was that like? How did they speak to how
did you feel around them? I felt like I could
do anything. I felt like like like really it was
all available to me. I just needed to grab it
and do the work and like I could make mistakes

(46:26):
and they were still there. They're still in it with me.
They're not embarrassed, like they have my back. And so like,
go find those coaches and if you haven't had one,
create one you can. You can be that for other people.
You can be it for yourself. And so just index two, three, four,
five values that matter. So start with three values kindness, accuracy, excellence,

(46:51):
about maybe okay, and then every word you choose you
line up with kindness, accuracy, excellence. I just made those
three up. It could be any virtue or values that
matter to you. And then so that's where like, that's
where the inner world, investing in your inner world is
really dynamic. Is that I believe free will. So you

(47:16):
can choose the words that you're going to say to
yourself or others. You can choose your thoughts, your words,
and your actions. And if you line them up, like
you've got bell wethers of values, you only need a
couple of them, and then you practice thoughts, words and
actions that are in context of the values that matter
most to you, that are pointing.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
At the purpose. Now we got it.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, this is not that complicated, right, but it takes
a lot of time. It takes a lot of time
to get those bell weathers, those values lined up to
practice with great awareness your thoughts, words and actions that
are pointing towards that purpose.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
It sure does, especially if your sociometer is woefully miscalibrated
ther theory. I love that you drew in that huge
shout out to Mark Leary.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
This was your inspiration. It's in the book because of
our friendship. And you said, Hey, you know there's a
thing here. I know what you're writing about, and there's
a thing here. Check out Mark Larry's work and appreciate you.
Appreciate Mark, I really.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Appreciate a lot of appreciation. Appreciate this weirdest tea. It's
gonna be my new favorite go to tea now, especially
with guests, you know my podcast, like this Dragonfly tea.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
And you know what's fun about this this tea is
that if you put some citrus in it, it turns
a whole different colors. It's a go to Like like
I said, I love like hand picked, hand picked.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Tea leaves, and so this is one of them.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, I think this tea is a kind of thread
throughout a lot of this wonderful we do we talk
about neuroscience at all, or do we get to grab
a beer some other day and talk about neuroscience.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Now follow your.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Lead, like like we're we're give me a grade. I
traveled in your territory here. I kept it pretty thin
because I didn't think. I didn't want to unravel too much.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Do you run it by Mary Helen and Urdida Gang?
And she approved it?

Speaker 4 (49:11):
Yeah, she's Oh, so you defer to Mary Helen.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
I I often do, because you know, she she's a
real expert in the social cognito or science field. What
I like about her research is that she shows the
benefits of the default mode network CORREAT. So without the
default mode network, we would have a hard time having
compassion for others. We would not be able to project
ourselves into the mind of someone else. You know, and

(49:40):
as you make the point, we are bad perspective takers.
But the default mode without the default mole network, we'd
be even worse. You know, we would be able to imagine,
you know what someone else.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
I've heard some smart people call it the imagine.

Speaker 5 (49:52):
Yes, yes, professor, But I think but I think that
you are quite right to point out that it can
be the source of our greatest suffering when we get
too stuck in our self story.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Right, there's a lot there that's relevant to what you
write about in your book. You write about you know,
interpretation is almost everything. You know, Like you decided to
interpret that mentors throway common in a certain way that
caused you a lot of darn suffering, so many for
many years. So it can be that that brain network

(50:27):
can be the source of a gress suffering. I would
also argue it can be the source of regress creativity,
our greatest compassion. You know, improv they've like they look
at rappers and improvars and poets and the fMRI machine
and their defaultile network is just lighting up because they
are really in touch with their self in a flow
kind of state, where their executive attention network is quieter.

(50:51):
So I think it's the interaction between the default and
the executive that matters, not one or the other. Yes,
but you're quite right to point out out can be
such a great source of suffering when we get stuck
in those self narratives.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
You know, when when so I didn't tie this together
well enough because so many darlings in this book were
you know kind of you know, like that that idea.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
You had to kill darlings too, did you have a yeah,
a bigger draft or a draft and.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, I'll tell you a fun one that got cut. Yeah,
I talked about but spotlight effect and default mode network.
Oh so I think there's a connection there that I
haven't read that chapter on spotlight Yeah, and I and
that spotlight effect is a great bit of research, you
know for folks that are unfamiliar. But essentially it's like
there's a finding that we walk around thinking that we're

(51:39):
under the spotlight, and the connection like what is he
thinking of me? Is basically the spotlight effect? You know,
does he what is he thinking of the shirt I'm
wearing or whatever? And you're actually on your your own spotlight?
What is Mike thinking of me? And so like we're
walking around with these spotlights on us thinking that we're
the center of the universe, the center of attention. And

(52:01):
if we take that one step forward and we get
stuck in the default mode network like how am I?

Speaker 3 (52:07):
How?

Speaker 1 (52:08):
We need to know how I am? But this internal
focus only, that's where it becomes. As soon as like
I can feel my sympathetic nervous system kick on and
as soon as I feel like there's some sort of
social threat where I might not be good enough, and
I'm in this hyper sensitive self mode. I get stuck

(52:28):
in the default mode type of feeling no, and it's
a loop and it doesn't matter, like I feel like
it's really hard to get out of it.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
It happens too. Oh yeah, even nowadays.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, I mean much less than it did before. But
I'm not immune from it, you know. But if I
preempt purpose, I preempt gratitude training, I preempt curiosity, and
I practice those types of things. I preempt with mindfulness
to be more aware, so I can catch and work

(53:02):
with my thoughts upstream rather than downstream and the rapids
those are all off ramps. Okay, So if I can
work those things, just like when I go to the
gym and I want to do mobility work and some
strength work and same thing. So I have to work
for those I wasn't born like free so and that's
why it's mental training.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's a phrase you use
in your course with coach.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
Yes, one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Let's talk about death. When we face our mortality head on,
Can that reduce faux po?

Speaker 3 (53:43):
Possibly?

Speaker 1 (53:44):
It does for me and this idea has been around
a long time, right, this is this is a stoic idea.
It's just been around a long time, like square up
with your death, you know, be honest with yourself. There's
a one of the kind of the core foundational ideas
in Buddhism and certainly the Zen traditions, is like everything

(54:05):
is impermanent and permanence is like one of the foundational things.
So everything is changing all the time, and we don't
know when that time runs out.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
You had this quote from Jeff Bezos, right, or he's like,
in twenty thirty years, yeah, we could totally go bankrupt.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah right, yeah, yeah right, So yeah, some of the
multinational companies I work with, they three trilling down the
cap and they still feel like they're about to go.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
Out of business, you know.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Like so that's a different fear though that the idea
of squaring up with the impermanence of all things.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
So death of a company though, it's death of a company.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
But what I'm suggesting in this is that when you
embrace the fragility by understanding impermanence and embracing what impermanence
really means, that you'll be more likely to be here
because here is fleeting and here again is fleet and
so I want to be I know, I don't know

(55:03):
when i'll see you against Scott, I don't know when
i'll talk to again. I don't know when I'll get
that moment, and so I want to be when I'm here.
I want to be great. I want to be here
with you. And it's a forcing function for me to
be all in in the places I'm in. And so
I hope that people say, what is success for you?

(55:24):
Like if my wife were to hear this is she'd say, yeah, yeah,
that's how he is with me too, and my son
you know that we have an adult relationship when when
he's older, like, yeah, I feel that way too around
your Mike or Dad.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
So I think what you're going.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
To point to is that this little practice that I
do when I say goodbye to people, is that just
take a moment and now it's now weird that I'm
talking about it, because you'll feel it now probably at
some level. But when I say goodbye to you, I
mean it. I don't know if I'll see you again,
and so I practice that every day, and then that
practice keeps me tuned to the next person that I'm

(56:02):
going to see, Like, shit, I don't know if I'm
going to see Scott again. I mean, I don't know
if I'm going to see Xavier again. Man, let me
be here.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
So it's a small little practice I do.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
I love it. Abraham Asil have these exercises where you know,
when you're when you're with someone, imagine them dead.

Speaker 4 (56:21):
You know, like, is that right?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (56:23):
How does that work?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
I mean he had he had this whole idea of
the Plateau experience, where you simultaneously see the eternal in
every situation as well as the impermanence. It's a little complicated,
it's related to some Eastern philosophy, but you can realize

(56:45):
that we're all just archetypes of something, you know, like
there there's going to be two hundred years from now
a podcast conversation between a Michael lookalike and a Scott lookalike.
You know, there'll be two people who take up whatever
role we play in society, right. Yeah, But it's kind
of a thing where you just recognize there's an impermanence,
but there's also something that lives on and holding both

(57:09):
in your mind at the same time. But Also he
did have exercises for recognizing the impermanence of things and
while you're taught, while you're not when you're saying goodbye
to them, but while you're talking to them.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
See, I knew I was not as good as a
mess though.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Damn. Why you know yours is good too?

Speaker 3 (57:27):
I'm doing that's a performance space.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
I ye, yours is good like yours too? Yes and yes,
And so he had all sorts of exercises for really
confronting the mortality of things. Uh, let's talk about social media.
I do want to talk about I want to be
remiss if we didn't bring that up, because I feel
there's so much pressure nowadays to appear popular, happy, good

(57:55):
And when you feel that pressure, you are, in a
sense caring what not just caring, but you're fearing negative opinions.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah, and you're contorting and shaping and presenting. You're presenting
in a certain way, you know. And so the performative
aspect of being human has kind of saturated too many
factors of being And so I mean, look, I mean
we call it performance psychology. And there is a time

(58:24):
to perform, you know, and there is a time to
be And so can you hold the space of your being,
your authenticity, if you will to use your earlier language
and express from there. That's radical performance. But when you
when you're faking it till you make it, when you're
performative in a way that you want favor, then we've

(58:47):
got we've got some real problems and challenges in how
that shows up.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
So why now, why this book? Why now?

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Social media is like gasoline on this thing. We're living
in a performance obsessed culture. We've got this performance based identity.
We've got this very general I'm sorry, this very specific
process in our brain that's scanning for danger, and one
of the great threats is rejection. And then you add
social media on top of this unexamined internal way of living,

(59:17):
and this is a I think this is one of
the reasons faux po and exactly what I'm talking as
one of the reasons suicide, anxiety, depression, addiction is on
the rise for kids. You know, like it's an unexamined
approach to those conditions I just talked about.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
So true. Jonathan Heights writing a book about this, The
Anxious Generation, about especially like teenagers, there's so much pressure
for this. I mean, I wish I knew when I
was a teenager. I wish I could have read your book.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
I do too.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
I wish my parents would have read it, you know,
I don't. I wish I would have read it. I
wish my parents would have read it. I wish my
coaches would have read it. I wish my aunts and
uncles would have read it. And just it's like David
Defoster Wallace has, you know, he's got that classic poem
that he says, It's a fish, an old fish swim
in one direction, and two young fish swimming in the

(01:00:13):
other direction, and he swims by him, and he says,
how's the water boys, And the two fish keeps swimming along,
and they don't say anything to each other. Then one
look stupid or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
It might be.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
And then finally one of the young fish says to
the other young fish, the hell is water. So he's
just pointing to the obvious that we take for granted,
we take things for granted. Yeah, and so so anyways,
I think that it's a little bit like that too.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
You do talk about, you know, asking yourself, what will
you regret at the end of your life. I wrote
a cheeky post the other day. You know all those
kind of studies, they're like, they tell us what people
are regretting on their death. I want to hear from
the dude or the human who says it's just like
he's like, nah, I'm good, I don't have any regrets.
I want to live like that person.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Yeah, they're out there, you know, I don't know anyone
like that, though, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Isn't it possible to to not regret? I mean, I'm
not saying you don't live a life of pain or
you don't live a life of things that you're not
happy with, But you know, I think there's something we
can learn from all of our situations.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Yeah, the things that I regret most of my life,
and I wish I was better for people when I
chose words or actions that really hurt them. And so
those are the ones that I'm like, I got you fuck,
you know, like what was wrong with me? And so
those are the ones that sting and I completely get.

(01:01:44):
I wouldn't be who I am. I like who I am,
I wouldn't be who I am without those pains. And
but man, when it comes to the cost of other people,
that sucks that I'm not sure that that's the juice
is worth the squeeze me like you myself, and I've
heard a bunch of other people. Yess, that's that's pretty poor.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
But that's a regret for something you did not a regret.
There's something you didn't do, that's right. I don't really
like to have too man regrets for things I haven't done.
But I don't know. I can probably think about the
examples of things that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
You did not do. Yeah, like the opportunities that you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Yeah, opportunities I may not have taken, but another door
was opened. It's the whole free wall thing. And the
regrets thing is interesting because Seppolski would say, silly to
have regrets you couldn't have chosen otherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Well, you're supposed to have that feeling. Of course you
are because of your unique experiences prior to it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Yeah, And of course you would because of your your
unique genetic experience and all of you da da da da.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Of course you would be depressed too, exactly, and of
course your unique experience would express anger from that depression.
That So I yes, and I mean still I can
get in there. I feel like that I can get
in my own in my own psychology and make some choices.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Yeah, yeah, I like your your your take there on
on choices. At least there's a little wiggle room here,
there is. Look, I loved your book. We could talk
all day long. I loved all the stories in your book.
They're captivating. They everyone took me down a rabbit hole,
you know you I wasn't aware of the as much
as I was a Bulls fan as a kid. I

(01:03:28):
don't remember that game where Caramelone and skytie Pippen Sky
Pippen Caramelone. He's like the mailman don't deliver on Sundays,
you know, And he missed both free throws, and then
of course and I and I I googled, and I
watched the rest of that game and watched Michael Jordan's
winning shot. Man. Michael's amazing because nothing phases him amazing.

(01:03:49):
That's what probably makes him so amazing is that he's
not phased. Right Like he he took that situation. He's like, Okay,
now I'm gonna win the game, you know, And like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
I don't know my Michael Jordan. I think he's complicated.
I think that as we all are. Yeah, I think
there's a lot of pain in there, and there's been
a lot that he has had to work through that
is not.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Quite ready for like a joyous, joyous life.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
But but you just don't see or get into No
one ever psychoanalyzes players. They just it matters how you perform.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Right, you know for the most part, you know, And
but like when I watch him be able to execute
on demand, it's special.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
It's special.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Yeah, he is special.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
There were just two sides of that court, you know,
the Carmelone missing the two because like Jordan doesn't do that.
You know, they're give him more pressure and he performs better.
He's the inverse of that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
He's special.

Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
But but but just the point there with that Scotty
Pippen going up and really being able to affect him.
Obviously Carmelone has has a can get affected by that.
Although and then I started going down a rabbit hole
of other alternative explanations for why he missed those free throws,
and people said he had and burns from that game.
Whatever you get anyway, thank you so much for these
incredible stories. Everyone got me down a whole rabbit Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Fun man, thank you. That is so good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
So I was when I send it to you like
thinking about the faux post look, and I send it
to you. Your your opinions about kind of the science
and the approach. It mattered to me, and so I
was nervous to send it to you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
I love the book. I'm going to end on a
quote I've been saving for a last You have a
choice at every moment of your life, whether you're going
to play the faubo game. Are you going to spend
your precious days, hours, and moments worrying about other people's opinions?
Are you going to spend your brief time on this
planet worrying about what other people think you should say,

(01:05:43):
or do or feel. Hell no, I'll answer that question.
I'll answer it. Hell no. Thank you, Rich.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
Yeah, I appreciate you.

Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
What what Vanus?

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
That's what Nan