ExoPod

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi everybody, and welcome to the Renee Substawns podcast in
Renee Stubs's apartment once again with my with my first
ever guest to stay in this apartment, actually Petkovich, that's true. Yes,
well he caught me, and of course Caitlin Thompson, you
have not slept here. I have not slept here, even
if even on a drunken night he managed to.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Go home exercise basically sleep here.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Your exercise bike is still there, it is, yes, do
you still use it?

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (00:40):
I did once in a while, once in a blue moon.
I know we both need to use. Well, I've got
to get my legs in shape because I'm going skiing
in a couple of days and I know the first
run I take, my legs are going to be shaking
like a mofo.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
Maybe you can take a lesson with Yannick Sinner, but
just to bring back that moment. And I slept up there,
which is like stairs, I.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Have a little len I call it a little mezzanete area.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Okay, could you call it.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
That a mezzanette. Yeah, that's a neologism to me.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
But I think, but you know, like how I like
to make up words.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
I think it is a it's like a light.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Yeah, we were sitting on boxes having pizza.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
What happens up there now? Nothing?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, people sleep up there still when I have friends,
I have friends coming to stay. My friend Nicole brad
Key used to play on tour, and her husband Mark
and their son.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
The problem is three people.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Three people.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Well, no, they're staying down the parents are staying downstairs.
I'm leaving. When I go to Australia, they come here.
It's amazing how people come and visit me when I'm
not here, including my sisters a couple of days. I
don't know. They like to have my apartment by themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Did you see how bad the New York Giants played yesterday?

Speaker 1 (01:52):
I don't care about the Giants.

Speaker 5 (01:54):
They're so bad that you come to New York. And
why don't you tell our listeners? For those who follow
you very closely through your various substack Instagram, various adventures,
you are basically a part time resident of New York.
You go to galleries, you she shows, you go to plays.
But also you're a massive New York Giants fan.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Well, he doesn't have a choice of Giants fan is
maybe a stretch a giant.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
No, definitely not.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
But my partner, Jesse, he's very clear about rooting for
the Giants, the Nicks, and the Mets and nothing else
is allowed. So I guess by proximity, I'm a giant
choice the Nicks and a Mets fan, and.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well you must be. He must have been out of
each I.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Was so I told you that I was really sick.
I had a fever yesterday. I'm fine again, thank you
for asking. And I fell asleep yesterday at eight pm,
and around nine pm, Jesse starts screaming next to me.
I thought something happened. And the thing that happened was
that who got got a contract.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
With the metsen years?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Almost? Was it? Almost seven eight hundred million dollars? Can you, Effie,
imagine that if we have talked about have we not
talked about this maybe in our regular life or on
the pod about how we think? You know, everyone says
about tennis players and the money they make, and we've
seen just recently that the highest paid top ten female
athletes in the world have been three or I think

(03:21):
four or five of them were tennis players.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Tennis keeps out of the ten.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, it's like crazy, but a lot of that is
also prize money, And I'm like, but you earn that
money like tennis players earn their money. They don't get
guaranteed fifteen year. I mean because if that happened in tennis,
Carlos al Karaz and Sina would be getting eight hundred
million dollars for fifteen years because we know they're going
to be at the top of the game for at

(03:45):
least a decade, you know. I mean, whereas one Soto
could like have a slump year or two or three
and he's still getting paid what is it ten million?
What is it a year? Fifteen million? I can't work
it out for me, Kaitlin to fifteen million, fifty million
a year? Not on an it's like fifty million a year.
Can you fucking even imagine that?

Speaker 5 (04:06):
I get that baseball players play a lot of days,
but I have to say, per like energy burning, moment
by moment effort. I would love to be a baseball player.
Teams like you don't have to like you're not you know,
a tennis player is running almost every single minute of
the competition.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
A baseball player, you're up like every couple innings.

Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, Like maybe you I think baseball is great, and
I love baseball.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
I actually think it's one of the best sports there is.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Spoken like a true socialist.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
I guess I have a socialist. My team, the Montreal Expos,
was not there anymore I know.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Is that thing is making up word Montreal's One of
the most famous at Montreal Expos moments is when they
stole it from the Cubs.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, it was great.

Speaker 5 (04:51):
We had a great team and had the baseball strike
of nineteen ninety six that happened, we might have won
a World Series and then we would have kept our
team instead of having to sell it to the wash
And franchise which became the Nationals, which like anyway, I
think thissball's great, But if you paid me one hundreds
of million dollars, I'd play forever, yeah for and not
have to do that much.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
I mean, seriously, I'm not kidding.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
I love this game.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
But if you have a son having play baseball, I mean,
why would you put your son in football? Like CTE
The physicality of that game. I was watching the Monday
night game last night was Kansas City and the LA
team and the around. It was a great game, but
it's like every play someone was getting carted off the
field for something.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Do you think they should play football without helmets?

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yes, said I've said this a million times.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Well, not do open field tackle helmet helmets.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
I think what they should do is what they do
in rugby. If you want to wear helmet, you have
to you wear like a leathered you a helmet thing
around your head. And because I have said this forever,
if you go back to the old days of the NFL,
that's all they had. They just had that like leather
thing around there.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Also they didn't have a lot of teeth.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
They didn't have a lot of teeth. But it's like
for me, it's more it's like rugby. Then you start
to learn how to tackle without using your head right,
so you use your shoulder, you go to you can
have you seen a game of rugby? Those guys are
running at you at full pelt and you are tackling
them now. I And also when you think about a
wide receiver going across, like you're not going to spear

(06:22):
him with your head. Now they've tried to take away spearing, right,
but it has still happens from time to time just
because you know that's but if you know that your
head is not protected. You're not sparing anybody.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Now, so for me, what I like about football is
the athleticism of the running and catching. Yeah, not so
much the and the throwing and the accuracy human beings.
So yeah, like I feel you know, I you know,
I like to throw in a hypothetical. So for me, I
would watch football again if there were no helplets.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Honestly, it's a hypothetical I've been saying for years. I think,
I honestly think if they want to improve people's longevity,
and they want.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
To improve people's longevity, well, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
They talk about it, or we've improved the helmets. So
I'm like, just take the helmets away. You'd be dull
and real quick not to go in with their helmet
with their head because I don't have a helmet on.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Anyway. I love that You're New York Transfer anyway.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Tennis tennis. So Tennis really yelled into the mic.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Then oh, look at that.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Look at that.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
I really tried to make a point about tennis. Sometimes
I bring it too close. Yeah, I always think people
want to.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Stop trying to put that little mark in your mouth.
All right, So let's get to a little bit of tennis.
Hi everybody. Uh, I'm glad you joined us for tennis talk.
And we've talked about everything.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
But tennis talk starts at ten minutes.

Speaker 5 (07:34):
I have a segue into tennis, which is speaking of
how much people get paid. There is wild speculation. First
of all, Renee u M. Seed an event here in
New York, the Garden Cup Cup. Oh yeah, Ammina yep,
Ben Shelton Alcarez Yes, by all accounts, wildly successful.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well not all accounts was it wildly successful, But by
some accounts it was successful because there were a lot
of seats energy in the space.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Was I would say it was wildly successful in the
fact that Madison Square Garden was sold out. And I
have to tell you when I heard that I was
getting I was doing the MC job. This was months
and months ago, and you know I live in New York.
Did you see any advertising.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
No, they didn't market it at all, which was strange.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well I can tell you why.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
And there were still some seats available day for eight dollars.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
I looked online. Yeah, but like we're talking, way way, way, way, way.

Speaker 5 (08:24):
Out, that wasn't I'm happy that tennis was in MSG
and we had something to talk about.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
So I'm not trying.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
How many members of the USTA membership is there? Take
your guess, eight hundred thousand. Yes. So they sent out
an email to all the USTA memberships, okay, and they
bought the tickets like crazy. So that's how they sold out. Interesting,
they didn't have to do any advertising because tennis is
so popular. And this is the conversation I wanted to
get to today, is that tennis is so wildly popular

(08:49):
in this country that you know a million people reached
out to get tickets to this thing. Yeah, like in
overall and so, and I have to say, like, when
I got there, I was working with Steve Weisman, he
was the other MC. I'm like, I said to him.
I was like, well, how'd they get a good crowd?
He goes, it's sold out? I go what. So many
of my friends that live in the city who love

(09:10):
tennis were like, oh, I didn't even know this was
happening because literally they did no advertising on it.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Is that a good thing?

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:17):
They sold out?

Speaker 5 (09:18):
Yeah, But is it a good thing that we had
a major event in the heart of New York City
and nobody knew about it?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:23):
I don't know. You answered that question what you.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Said on some accounts, what were their accounts? There were friends?

Speaker 5 (09:28):
The friends they were there were like, oh, it's pretty
low energy. These matches are not very good. There's no
music or energy to it, which is a production issue,
and that's a cost. It is a cost, but also
if you sell it a thing like give people a
night of entertainment, like I'm not a huge exhibition tennis fan.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Generally la the elephant out there, baby.

Speaker 5 (09:46):
But I do think like, and truly my attitude about
this is like, hey, great, start like did I put
on an event at MSG?

Speaker 3 (09:52):
No?

Speaker 5 (09:52):
I did not, So I'm not here to be like, oh,
well they could have done all this stuff better. That's
had great. Now that we've established that people want to
see this thing, like, how can we iterate and improve
it and maybe make the sort of interstitual moments because
sometimes you get a good exo. I mean, you've played
tons of exos. I don't know what makes a good exo.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
It's really hard, but I think so what I think
what you really need to lean into from my experience
is to have a bit of a different counting system,
get new people in and out so you keep the
because it's not the match that counts, right, It's about
the people that come out, and of course Carlos helps
because he's just both Ben and Carlos.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I was fantastic.

Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, the box office players exactly, so that that will
always work. But I think what the exhibitions I was
part of that work best were mostly when either it
was established like the Luxembourg Ladies do it's a prize
money thing. Who wins wins more money than there is
a little bit of stakes, and that was like part

(10:50):
of the advertising is who wins gets a fifty k paycheck, right,
so then you feel a little bit of a competition
in it. Yes, that's one thing that works. Or you
have I have a lot of names and you keep
changing them out right where you can like exchange oh
three games Andre Agacy please.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
The problem with that?

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Money? Okay, so it costs a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
I would say, I don't know, I have no idea,
but I'm going to take a guess and say that
Carlos probably made a million dollars that night.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
The rumor is it's between one and two million, guaranteed.
I would say one, You're probably right.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
I know that the takeing the gate was three with
the crowds. Yeah, you know, and the money.

Speaker 5 (11:29):
And I heard Jess and Ema got one hundred K,
and I heard Ben got anywhere from two to five.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Hundred from a couple of different Yeah, I would say
maybe that was truly being spent at least two million
dollars on just the players alone and talent. So when
you think about that, then you've got to pay everyone working,
including myself. You know, You've got to pay these people
to come in, You've got to pay for the court
to be later. Like, it costs a lot of money
to put an event like that. So I know that

(11:56):
the sponsorship, they didn't have a lot of sponsorship, but
I I can they did not have them, No, they
did not, but I can. They made enough money to
cover everything. But what I would say is that's great.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, yeah, which is great.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, And yes, Ben and Carlos were incredible. Carlos is
just oh my god, he's just he is. Yeah, and
Ben did a great job as well. And his game
is not necessarily like flashy like Carlos' is, because you know,
he can't rally as easily. But my god, some of
the shots he hit, and he hit one forehand that
was so hard. I was like, oh my god. So

(12:30):
they were fun. The girls not so much. But you know,
I mean, Emma was trying because she's got a little
bit more of a like quirky personality. But you know,
Jess is Jess. She's not really flashy and all that
sort of stuff. But the tennis was really good from
the two of them. It was very good tennis.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
The thing with them, yeah, I don't know, it's pretty good.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
The thing with them is you need one of the
players to be an extroverted charisma a type of thing.
But she's not going to shots or slices through the truth.
But Sablenka will show up, she will look great in
her dress, she will demand attention, and she will be
there and have presence. And I think you need at

(13:09):
least one of these type of players for these things. Yeah,
but again, as I said, yeah, yeah, but you think
Pegula doesn't have a bigger paycheck on her head in
America than Sablenka.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Nobody in the States knows who she is, even.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
Though she's number one in the world right even like, okay,
but we side in the Forbes things that you just mentioned.
Sablenka Andrew Bakina combined earn less in sponsorship money than
Emma Raducanu. Yeah, so clearly, you know we know why
they are not from the States.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Well yeah, no, and also or England or EU country
or Big Marsh's attractive and they Soblenka Sablenka is an
incredible She's from Belarus.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
That's what I mean. That's what I mean.

Speaker 4 (13:53):
You can't tell me that Sablenka costs more than a
Jess Pagoula in America, That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
I think that.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Would demand it. I would think she would demand she
wouldn't because she's number one in the world.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
And I don't know.

Speaker 5 (14:04):
I bet she'd be like, oh, dude, you get a
carbone table and you get the thing like I think
you could probably just be like, oh yeah, we'll put
you on the giant screen at a Knicks game. She'd
be like, yeah, cool. She seems like a good time.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Charlie. I bet you did it, like, oh, I'll meet
me at the bar after I'll pour.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
She is very very serious. I talked to her at
the Ocean Open last year. I interviewed a few times.
She's super She's very very serious about her off season.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
She takes it very serious.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
I cannot say enough about how thankful I feel as
a tennis fan, not only because I like her style
of play, but also just like it is so helpful
for the game to have a charismatic number one. It
is so helpful to even if she's from a small market.
She translates, she's Miami, she's flashy, she's got the Odmar
Piger watch thing. She's just like, she's fun.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
She has a lot of presents.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
So much presence, and it's uh to me, you know,
I don't need her to win all the stuff. Part
of it is is is she gonna Well?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Actually, part of I love, I actually love when she
loses because she's especially in finals and she does her
speeches and she's like, wow, but she's asked this time,
but I'm going to kick your ass.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
What is just like such a fun spectacle.

Speaker 5 (15:13):
I really like when my athletes are like treating it
like a game in the sense that they're very serious
and it's about the process, but also they understand that
like part of it is also the entertainment factor, and
like she really delivers on that for me.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, and not all of them do, No, they don't
but you know, I mean, listen, you can't help your personality, right,
it's just who you are.

Speaker 4 (15:30):
But for example, that's why Jess and Sablenka when they
do play, that's an amazing matchup because they, Yes, you
don't need Tonka.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Like I said, it comes down to money and who's
available as well for these things. And it's easier to
get an American in November to play in America, right.
And the fact that Carlos I mean, I'm gonna be honest.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Like playing like another exhibition.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
The fact that he and then he played Charlotte. No,
he's already done the Charlotte event.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
But like I'm like, when is this guy having any
time off? When is he like he started He's starting
his preseason this coming week, I asked him his agent.
So I'm like, apparently, had like two weeks off, didn't
hit a tennis ball after after Davis Cup. I'm like,
so when he played Ben he hadn't hit a ball
in like two weeks.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
I guess he doesn't need.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
So that those were his two those were his weeks off,
and then coming to play these exos was like him
getting started for next year. I'm like, fuck you, No, man,
I tell you if I'm Yenick Sin, I'm sitting back
there going okay, well I had pretty good preseason. I
had like two weeks off I didn't do anything, and
then I went straight into it. I don't know, we'll see.

Speaker 5 (16:33):
Can you guys talk a little bit about just because
I think it is really interesting to understand the exo
and like what the formula of it, Like what the
fun ones you've been involved in. I mean, like everyone
gives UTS a lot of shit. I know everybody in
the space.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, like stry just won that U tr uts. What
is a UTR in London?

Speaker 5 (16:48):
UTS is the XO. UTR is the reading system and
the very easy to confuse. But you know, Patrick gets
a lot.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Of not not to be confused with the UTI.

Speaker 5 (16:59):
Noo that that's what I don't want. Only cranberry juice
can prevent a UTS, oh my god. But it cannot
prevent a UTS. So I do like actually the UTS
format because kind of two points. It's like, yes, the
names are silly.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
I think their graphics could be greatly improved.

Speaker 5 (17:14):
It looks like a you know WWE, like from nineteen
eighties sort of marketing program.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
The WWE in the eighties was awesome.

Speaker 5 (17:20):
It was pretty cool, but like it's kind of like
a Reilly and yeah, like I want to watch somebody
play a tiebreak? Do I want to watch somebody especially
if their her son and it played three sets, Like Nope,
But I'm happy to like see somebody try for like
a ten point hard and see.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
What happens and like maybe try to do go for
some asis. So I do think that there's something too.

Speaker 5 (17:38):
I don't hate exos as a as a rule, but
I do think there's like a variation and how good
they can be.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
And like I said, MSG, I'm glad they had it.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I'm glad well was so.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
But I would love to see us build on this
and maybe make it.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
I know that they have one hundred percent certain I'm
not gonna say it for certainly it's coming back next year,
but I would say ninety percent certainty that it will
come back because of the it was so wildly successful.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, breaking even in your first years.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Great. Yeah, and they hadn't played for six or seven years,
they hadn't had the Garden Cup for like six or
seven years. I've been a part of it almost every
year that has been there, whether it be MCing or
commentating it. But you know what it showed me was,
first of all, God, how I missed playing tennis tournaments
in Madison Square Garden. I mean we played the WTA
finals there for a number year my first couple of
years I played the WTA finals when I was a bear,

(18:24):
Bear was at Madison Square Garden and it was unbelievably successful.
We always had great crowds. Double singles didn't matter. People
came and they showed up. Because you have to remember,
we're talking about Madison Square Garden. It is in the
middle of Manhattan. Do you know how many people live
in Manhattan.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
That have money easy to get to you on every train.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
One fucking apartment building could fill Madison Square Garden. You
think about then you've got people coming in from Long Island,
but it is accessible. It's so easy to get into
Madison Square Garden.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
And how was the atmosphere when you were I was great?

Speaker 1 (18:57):
It was great. And I mean even the atmosphere, you know,
when Ben's particular in Ben and Carlos were playing, the
crowd goes nuts. The atmosphere in there is awesome. So
I'm like, please, God, can we bring an event back there.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
The ATP or WT finals one year should be there.
Clearly you've got to find the sponsorship.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
But surely, surely Bill Ackman was playing in the pro am.
Of course it was before the event. I mean I
could buy the fucking w TAO ATP Finals and put
it on there every year himself.

Speaker 5 (19:29):
Time better spent than him trying to get University of
Presidents fired for which hunts. So yeah, exactly, see him
for supporting certain people for president.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
Well, at this rate, the Italians will buy Madison Square
and then just put an event on by the Italian
Tennis Federation.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Let's actually get to that, because let's have it. But
just to finish, like the thread on this is that
you know you saw Charlotte also packed, also sold out.
We are missing more tenors in this country, in the US.
And you know, when I played in my day, we

(20:05):
had a number of tournaments here at the end of
the year, indoors in Philadelphia, at Madison Square Garden in Chicago,
and we don't have those events. And god, I wish
we had more events because people are hankering for tennis
in this.

Speaker 5 (20:17):
Country exactly, And I think what I'm Glad you mentioned that,
because that was totally my takeaway, which is just like
with very little.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Much an email, they send out emails.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
Like imagine what the USTA could be doing on a
regular basis if they have a utilizing their membership. And
I think, like, you know, we know that the USTA
is over subscribed, we know that they probably sell too
many tickets, so that the thing now just feels like
it's a total us open us open. Yeah, sorry, And
I think because of that, like, yeah, there's latent demand here,

(20:49):
so let's like spread the wealth throughout. I mean Paris
has two major events, like it has a Master's one thousand,
and it has a Slam. Like then that's a city
with less density and.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
It gets sold out every time.

Speaker 5 (20:59):
And every time, and you know, I think that's great.
Like I want to see like sort of it's it's
easy to use case studies to sort of say like, okay,
well this makes the case now for this, and I
hope that happens to La as we've discussed many times,
should also have.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
A tennis Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (21:14):
I was actually I was talking with Christy on about
this on Friday because she was like, you know, it's
a real shame Chicago doesn't have a tournament because Chicago's
actually like a pretty big tennis study. And then she
was like, wait, but the Chicago tennis tournament itself, and
I was like, actually, yeah, I've talked about this. She
was like, you don't understand what the tournament in Chicago was, Like, okay, but.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
As an example, so it doesn't have nine am. I
haven't played at nine am since I was twelve years old.
That was my match, my main draw match, because their
lights weren't working, so they had to get in four rounds.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Of she said. She said there was a curfect. I know,
we know, you know the owners and you wanted to know.

Speaker 5 (21:51):
No, no, But just to illustrate the point, she said,
there was a curfew because also it was like pretty
rough around town and nobody came to this was in
the south side of shit. Everybody had to get bus
out of there by a certain time.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
So that just by a bus there wasn't running, and
so you had to order ubers and then give them
the invoices that they never paid for. That was one
and then on the semi final day because strangely enough,
I want the doubles in that one. Yes, it yeah, no, no,
I'm not cheating on it with she won with a

(22:24):
crutch by her side. But on semifinals day, they didn't
have catering, they didn't have food because they said, oh,
they told us nobody was going to be here anymore.
And then we had to order Uber Eats again give
them the invoice that they never paid for.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
So I'm not sure Chicago really needs time to shoot
on a tournament. It's just to say it does take
a lot of planning. It does take a lot of.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Which is my point in making with them. They didn't
have a lot of time. This just thrust upon them
very quickly to have that tournament, and they said, yeah,
we can do it because they have the facilities. And
one of the things about having a tennis storrnum is
you have to have facilities. You have got gotta have
the you've got to have the lights. You've got to
have the freedom to have the members say oh yeah,
we can, okay give up our you know, our club
for a week. So there's a lot that goes into it.

(23:10):
You've got to have sponsorship, you've got to have all
that sort of stuff. You've got to be able to
play for lunches you've got to be able to it's
you've got to play for the linesmen, you've got to
play for lines women, and you have to you've got
to put them up in hotels, and you've.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
Got to advertise the tournament so that people come, which
is not nothing. You know, maybe this event sure had
a built in email list to create fandom, but like.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Not all of them do.

Speaker 5 (23:28):
Like, I'm really curious to see what happens with the
Dallas Open, which is now like kind of getting an upgrade.
It's a mentally event in late February. It's an indoor event.
Obviously they get the male stars. But the reason I
bring it up is because it exactly to your point,
was at a private, kind of provincial, nice but provincial club.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
In the middle of like the Dallas suburbs.

Speaker 5 (23:47):
And now they're playing it at the practice stadium for
the Dallas Cowboys, and it's going to feel real empty
unless they get a ton of people there, yeah, which
maybe they will and hopefully it's you know, how much
I think it's similar to the Miami Open stadium.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Where they like, oh right, oh okay, that's going.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
So it'll be it'll be interesting to see what happens,
but I like the idea, like okay, cool, Like we're
going to make a commitment, we're going to try to
have this venue for a couple of years, and they're
advertising it now so that they have.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know, because the thing that I feel that's a
men's of anally, it's a mens of not only.

Speaker 5 (24:18):
So you know, obviously plenty to leave to be desired,
but like the thing that I feel like as a
as a spectator is, yes, I want this to be
like good tennis, and I want to feel like there's
a thoughtful setup as an experience, but also like I feel.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Bad when the players show up and there's nobody to
watch that.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, of course it's like that sucks like WT finals
in Dallas, I mean in Fort Worth and nobody knew
about it.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
They didn't pick the venue until like ten days before.
I mean I'm sort of exaggerating, but like, yeah, like
the players deserve, especially for like a finals event.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Like well guess what in read they know it's still
coming back.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
Semi finals and finals was sold out. It's a small venue,
three and a half I think, and those were great,
but the semis and finals were at least sold out,
so maybe next year.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
You know the it's not easy. I always give slack.

Speaker 4 (25:04):
Is that how you say? I give slack to first
year events. That's why Madison Square Garden, the Garden Cup,
they called it breaking even in the first year is
an incredible success because usually it takes a few years.
I mean, just talk to Bob Moran, who has done
an incredible job with Charles Charleston. It just takes years

(25:24):
to embed yourself into the community and for people to
know this part time of year, the tennis is in town.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Like the Gossip Girls. Do you know the Gossip Girl?
It was like, why what do you want to don't
want to go out?

Speaker 4 (25:37):
Tennis players are in town. That's like a line on
Gossip Girl. And that's the type that that's the thing
that you want to achieve with an event like this,
that people of the community are going like, tennis is
in town.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
This is what we do.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
At least one day of it. I'm taking my family.
That's why tickets have to be affordable at least some
of them. That's my credo, some of them. You have
to be able to take your it's to tennis and
then for them to see the magic with their own eyes.
And maybe pick up the record and become a lifelong fan.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
And this is why we need a Commissioner of Tennis.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
That's right, and we have nominated you. Now maybe we.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Well, it's been a majority of us, yes, yes to
one exactly. You can't oppose your own nomination against my will.
I've decided to accept.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Against my will, I've phenominated.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh it's classic anyway. I just think we need tennis
in this country more. But it also goes back to
the conversation we've been having through me thinking that after
the US Open, tennis needs to stop. The calendar tournaments
need to stop. As far as the WAATP, I think
you need to have one twenty five to fifties for
players outside of so the top fifty, but everybody else.
I think we need to have some team events and

(26:49):
some exos and fun and make sure these players are
making our shit ton of money and but they're not
having the stress of like winning a tournament or playing
against people like from the US Open nine. I think
we have the United Cup. I think we have Hotman Cut,
we have Davis Cup and Billy jean Kin Cup, and
you make everything a team event and make everything fun
for these players, and you take maybe one player I

(27:11):
think we discussed this last week, but one player from
the top ten, one player from the top twenty, one
player from the top thirty, forty and fifty, right, and
you make a team of that. So it's kind of
like an NBAWNBA free agency, Like, okay, you get to
choose somebody in the top ten, you get to choose
somebody in the top five.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Is that like World Team Tennis?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Kind of a little bit like World Team Tennis, and
you make a team out of it, and then you
can exchange them in and out your singles and doubles
and mixed doubles, and you actually have teams.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
A minute for the merchandise, the logos, team hand chicks.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know, China is putting a lot of tennis into
money at the end of the year, so guess what,
you have a true World Cup, right, So everyone from
every you know, one person from each top ten, top twenty,
top thirty has to be picked in a team.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
I love it, and that it could be a parrot's team.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
So everyone in the top fifty is taking care of
everyone's playing. If you're ranked one, you get x amount
of money.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Too, So pragmatically what comes off the schedule.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Everything, So you kill all of that Asian tournaments. Everyone's like, well,
but Asian wants to put money, Yeah they can. You
have a World Cup, you have a true World Cup,
then you have a you know, a mixed event.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
You have like, well, don't we take it out of Australia.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Of Madison Square Garden that was one of the sites
of a World Team Tennis. It was sold out every
single match.

Speaker 5 (28:27):
I think any economist would like the I think the
World Cup idea is additive. I think anybody who's looking
at the tenness economics would say, you're insane to take
tennis out of Asia. We'd probably should take it out
of Australia because it's such a small market. So I
just say, I'm just saying, I'm talking about at the
end of the year. I know what you're talking about,
but some thing's got to give. And it's easy for
you to be like, it's Asia, But it would also

(28:47):
be easy for somebody to be like January, it's not
really summer for most of the living hemispheres.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
But that's why it's down there. It's summer.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
But I just but I think you have to I
think you have to account for your own bias in this.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
It's not a bias Australia. First of all, Australia the
amount of money. There's no bigger country in the world.
There's no country in the world that loves sports more.
That's the intangible amount of money that it makes for Victoria,
for Australia, for as an industry.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
As a market, it is a tiny, tiny, tiny market.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, but it's so it's in Asia, it's austral The
tournament is known as the Tournament of Austria by white people.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
I don't think any Asian people are like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's sponsored by Kia. Like half the sponsorships are Chinese.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Kias a Korean company.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Well, but but it's an Asian company.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
My point is, I think if you were to be like,
I'm comm these are the this is gonna be a
your feet now that you're the commissioner, I like, and
you're like, I'm just going. If you're the commissioner and
you have to kill a part of the tour and
so much money and so much new play and recreation
and equipment sales and momentum is coming out of Asia.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
What do you do about that?

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Well, then the World Cup.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
First Chances Commissioner, make it the World Cup.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
That Rene mentioned that had to be. It would have
to be in Asia then, or you would travel it
around the world. I can't kill that part, or you
have That's what I always said. In order to protect
I don't think it would be feasible, but in order
to protect protect players health, I just don't think they
would want to be away from home so much is
I think you should have all of January February, maybe

(30:21):
a little bit into March, be in Asia Pacific, start
at Australia.

Speaker 6 (30:25):
Commissioner has moved well, start start in Australia, starting in Australia,
Start in Australia, move to China, Asia, China, Japan, then
go to the Middle East and then go to the States.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
So basically you're staying on the same timeline because what's
killing players on top of the long schedule is having
to fly back and forth from one from one time.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
All well, the way it used to go back in
the new has arrived.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Early on in my career. It went Australia, Japan, indoors
in the US right Chicago, Philadelphia, that was the early part,
so it was winter. It was like April. Sorry, it
was like February March, and then it was Indian Wells
and Miami.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
So you went.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
Australia, Asia, US, then you went to Europe for all
the clay and Wimbledon, et cetera. And then you came
back to the US and then you either went back
to Europe or you stayed in the States. There were
tournaments in both in Europe and in the States, and
then we finished with Madison Square Garden.

Speaker 5 (31:50):
So we've done this before, but I would like to
crowdsource an ideal schedule. Somebody asked me and I was like,
I don't know, Buenos Aires.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Like I just I wasn't prepared.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
You were just buiased. You want to take everything out
of Australia and put it in South America. The marketing
is I.

Speaker 5 (32:07):
Don't want to punish Australia. My beef is not with Australia.
My beef is more just like with the schedule. It's
a weird time with the schedule.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
And also it's not when do you propose having an
Australia in winter?

Speaker 2 (32:18):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, that's your problem.

Speaker 5 (32:20):
I'm just gonna I think actually like something that that
is part of a it's as long as it's part
of a tour.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
It just feels like such an outlier now.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
And also like it's an outlier that people love, dude,
some people Australian people do. But because we have to
fucking get up at three in the morning to watch
any tennis event for the rest of the year, say
it's about time y'all got up early and had to
watch us, But they don't.

Speaker 5 (32:42):
And also a lot of the sponsors, yes, Keiah sure,
but like a lot of the global sponsors don't consider
Australia big enough market to.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Develop it, which a little Australia feels differently. They're making
Australia has done a great job with a with a
with not a lot. But also you talk about having
destination ornaments and destination events all the time, in Australia
is truly a destination. How many europe you know, how
many Europeans go down to Australia for the Australia It's yeah,
that's true.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
They always they connect it. Well, that's the thing that Americans. Yeah,
they go like, oh, we've never been to Australia, let's
stay there for three four weeks and yes, open or
United Cup a one part of that.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah. So anyway, just to get back to I think
after the US Open, I think that's the time, you know,
you pet go bring up Okay, do we just have
it in Asia? I don't know. You can see, I think,
sign a five year contract and have a World Cup
and have all these different events in China where people
aren't moving around, where they actually getting a place to
stay in for a month, They're getting paid a lot

(33:43):
of money.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
I think the reason she's Asia is whatever, because otherwise
where where do they fit.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
On the schedule. Well, the reason I bring up having
it in Asia or China in particular is because obviously
they're willing to put a lot of money in and
to it. It's it's got you're going to always guarantee
a big prize money check. Now are the fans gonna
be there? I don't know. I mean certainly they get

(34:09):
great fans in Beijing and Shanghai in the big cities,
and then maybe after four years or five years you
have a bidding war.

Speaker 5 (34:16):
I actually think if we're gonna go double down on Asia,
having lived there, I think you go in like February
into it indoors when it's the Lunar New York fust
But we're.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Talking about having this World Cup. I get it without
the points. You're you're so we're solving for different problems.
My problem is trying to shorten the season so the
players don't get injured so much and so they don't
have to like dread playing a single points meaningful.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Tournament after all. The yea, I think is your larger point.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
And for me, the way to do that is to
move You can't kill Asia from the schedule, so move
it to maybe the like late winter, early spring.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well you could do what Picco's saying. You go from
Australia to Asia and you move everything around at the
end of the year, and then you take it at
the end of the year and you go to South
America or But also you have to remember this, the
people that put this on after the US Open to
have a World Cup. That the thing I'm talking about
a lot of money. It has to be in a
place that can afford a lot of money. So we're
talking China, we're talking to it does have to be

(35:13):
Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, Yeah, well maybe it is.
Maybe that's where you have the World Cup and you literally,
you know, if you're number one in the world and
you play in this, you're getting ten million dollars, you know,
or fifteen million dollars to come and play it.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Listen.

Speaker 5 (35:26):
I will gladly do all the cooler merch and marketing
and storytelling for this.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
I had this conversation actually with Craig Tyley, you know,
because Craig's always trying to innovate at some stage with tennis,
and he's always trying to push the envelope a little bit.
And I said, you know, after the US Open, like,
let's just nix all the points tournaments, keep the smaller
ones because for the people outside say the top fifty
or top seventy five, that they're able to play and
people are going to be like, well, they're gonna they're

(35:51):
going to win, they're going to win points and they're
going to move up, and players inside the top fifty
aren't because they're not getting points. You work out a
system of maybe a bonus points schedule. If you win
against certain people, you get a certain amount. I just
think there's an opportunity there to take away the pressure
of playing. And also, these players are playing these exhibitions
when they've been talking about how fucking tired they are.
I'm like, well, no, you're playing because you're getting paid

(36:13):
a lot of money. That's why for free, because it
doesn't cost you anything. If Carlos loses to Francis, who cares?
He loses the band?

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Who cares?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
If he loses in a regular tournament, it's like, oh,
he's on a losing streak.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
That's what we talked about last year, right, where tennis
is the only sport that kind of functions like a
little where every team functions like a little company. Tennis
player being the CEO has to hire his own people,
pay them, and then make sure he makes a profit
from what he's to pay for it. So when you
have an exhibition that pays two million, you can be like,
are my expenses for this year?

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Covert?

Speaker 4 (36:46):
Now I can go buy myself a cryo cabin in
my house like Cristiano Ronaldo and sleep and minus ninety degrees.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
That's on.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
No that travels, doesn't he?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
But right, that's what I think. That's what in tennis.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
You don't have the security like who i'ms soo, who
knows for the next fifteen years. I'm set with seven
hundred and fifty million dollars. I can make sure is
e Venezuelan. Oh my god, he's might so much money.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
He bought the country. He can come. I mean, that's
just crazy money.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
But just you know he can.

Speaker 4 (37:14):
He can allocate a certain number of that money that
he's that he's going to be paid. And Pullenovak Djokovic
who always had that. Heinz Or always had this like
incredible vision of himself when we were seventeen.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
He's my age.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
When we were seventeen, he already was drinking green juices,
already had a physio with him, and he was paying
that out of his own pocket. He's from serving investing
he did. Yeah, he didn't have a federation that was
backing him. It didn't have big sponsorship money. He just
had this vision of himself becoming the goat, and he
managed to do so. But rarely do people ever have that.

(37:52):
But somebody who earns in the next ten years x
amount can allocate some of those funds into building themselves
into the best player that can be, and tennis players can't.
And that's why we see regularly on the tennis player side,
people not fulfilling their potential because they have to decide
make decisions day to day when they lose. Like I
always give the example when I in my last year

(38:15):
before I retired, I wanted to make a big splash
at Indian Wells and Miami. So I traveled with three
people with a physio, with a fitness coach and my coach,
and I spent you urge. I had an entourage, and
I spent ten K because we arrived ten days early
to Indian Wells to adjust to the time zone, to
just to the desert. I'd never played well in Indian
Wells because the ball flew, so I like bought all

(38:36):
these balls. I brought all these people and a day
before Indian Wells, I tear my doctor.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah that's right, I tore my doctor. I had to
pull out.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
And then they have this rule that you can pull
out of the tournament and you get the first round
price hockey right half of it. So I got like
four and a half thousand. So I was already in
the minors. So now I was there having to decide
do I try to get ready for It was a
small tear. Do I try to get ready for Miami?
Spend another fifteen k with all these people. I made

(39:05):
the decision, and I reinjured my adopted three days before
Miami had to pull out. Didn't get any money there.
I remember, I was in a minus of twenty five thousand.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
I was okay.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
I had a career of fifteen years behind.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
I was reach already.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
But those are decisions.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
But those are decisions, and I was in the fifteenth
year of my career, and that was my last year.
I could make this splash and I had a decent career.
But there are plenty of players. If I had been eighteen,
who had just been on a score for one year,
they would fuck.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
My next five years.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
I couldn't have paid for my coach, but the whole
entire rest of the season, And that's what tennis players
have to deal with every day. And so I think
you have to give them the opportunity to play a
few exhibitions to have saved money in the pocket, and
then they can, you know, pay for their teams.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
Or we could socialize and have a union and create
labor negotiations with mutually agreed upon sever roles and schedules.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh, it seems to me that I'm sitting here with
both commissioners.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
I'm just the uh, I'm the consigli are.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
That's all I want to, right, that's what you want
to All right, let's let's finish this pod because we're
going to do a quick one.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Can I ask a question?

Speaker 5 (40:10):
We have?

Speaker 3 (40:10):
We have, we have questions, questions.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Can I just ask a question a quick question?

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (40:13):
For the lay person?

Speaker 5 (40:15):
Yeah, because you mentioned it renee before, and Andrea, I'm
very curious because you have played so recently and we're
talking about physically optimizing. Carlos was spending his off season
doing exos and is now beginning his preseason. We see
all these photographs of players Dubai wherever.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Training Miami. What are you trying to do?

Speaker 5 (40:34):
You're trying to reset, You're trying to get strong, You're
trying to incorporate new things, like what's the what's the
ideal in your mind preseason or like what's the best
preseason you ever had?

Speaker 1 (40:42):
And what are you doing?

Speaker 4 (40:43):
So for me, I'm interested to hear what renee is.
For me, it was roughly five weeks and I would
focus for the like of course, first at least two
weeks I think two weeks rest after a season is
too little. Actually, I later in the year, I would
try and take three four weeks and that doesn't mean
three weeks lying in bed not doing anything, but three

(41:03):
weeks without playing tennis and maybe just focusing on regenerat recovering.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Getting the tennis back is not hard. It's a physicality, yes, exactly.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
And the problem is you know when you go on vacation,
you have this dread in your breast because you know
every in your breast.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, well every day I have had a dread in
my breast.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Well you have this probably better in German, but yeah,
but you haven't.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
You have a dread inside of you because you know
in German you have There is no I just made
this up, but every.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
I'm a writer.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
I was trying. I was trying to give you in Serbian.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
But every every day that you don't work out will
make you suffer more for the first day that you
start working out again.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
So you have this you even when you're not even killed.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
It's just you know, it's dread.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yes, it's dread in your breast.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Podcast you're trying to.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Recover, but at the same time, you know I haven't. Okay,
I'm yelling again, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Okay, So what I want to say is for me,
the ideal thing is if you could recover for three
to four weeks ideally, which is rarely have a possible.
So let's say three weeks and then two weeks you
only work on your physicality. You do four or five
hours a day doing intervals, doing getting back your endurance,
getting back your strength, just getting really strong. Then you
start playing tennis. The first week, how I would do it.

(42:23):
I would just hit balls, cross cords, the most boring
ship you can. Yeah, you go half an hour cross court,
half an our cross courd, half an hour done the small.
Then the next week you would start to do moving
on the court, a lot of how do you call it,
side sides, side to sides exactly, across one line exactly

(42:43):
those things. And then in the last two weeks, and
that can already be at the tournament.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Side, you start playing points. Yeah, you stop playing points,
then you stop playing sets, you stop playing.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
It's a slow build, but it's intentional.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
It's very intentional. It's ingized, it's intentional. Part of it
is intentional is that you know the same thing, like
the maximum I ever had off of doing nothing was
a week like because every day you're like, oh my god,
it's going to be hurting. I'm going to hurt so
much in the first week, so you try and sort
of doing a little bit of physicality every day, even

(43:15):
if it's just a ten minute run or something like that,
just to keep your heart rate up. And then the
second week, you know, you would get back into definitely
working out, and then two weeks after that, you know,
I would start hitting balls again. You don't forget how
to hit a ball, that's the thing. It's just the
thing that's hard is that you lose the rust of
playing points, you know. So the first couple of games
of every tournament, you know, on Brisbane or wherever you start, Auckland,

(43:38):
it's just like, well, you know, because you people like,
what do you mean you forget? You kin'd of forget
how to construct a point, you know, because it just
doesn't come as naturally. And then after a week you're like, oh,
I got it. But yeah, so it's just a slow
build and also you're working on all of your weaknesses
hopefully in the off season, you know.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
And that's a little bit just to just as an
addendum there. If you have done big technical thing that
you have to fix, talking about maybe Coco Gov's forehands
or Cocoga second serf, whatever it is. Although they changed
her grip on the surf within middle of the season
and it worked perfectly well, good for her. But if
you have something like that, a bigger technical adjustment, I

(44:17):
think you will have to I had something that I
did with my forehand. I started playing tennis earlier than
I would have nominally, so I didn't do only physical stuff.
I would go out on court for an hour and
just try to fix that technical thing, because it takes
roughly ninety days before something is in the subconscious.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
This is why I asked a question, because I knew
that there was some sort of formula.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, well, I remember one of the best examples of
that for me was Lee Nah when she won these
strain and open prior to that in I will never forget.
I was courtside for her match in New Haven and
she probably hit twelve to fifteen double faults, and she
had this little bit of a hitch on her second serve.
She didn't get a good kicker. She was hitting on
the right side of the ball, kind of similar to
Coco To be honest, and people that don't have that

(44:59):
margin again under the ball hitting the kickserver are always
going to be under pressure, are going to hit a
lot of double faults, or they're going to have a
shitty second serve. And I remember thinking, oh my god,
if she could have got the serve and she would
have won this match. I think I don't know if
it was a semi or final in new Haven. And anyway,
cut to this stray and open. I'm doing her first
match and we're at our position for I was working

(45:20):
for the seven Network. Then we are literally right behind
the court. On the court, it's one of the best
views in tennis. And I remember her first serving. I
was like, oh my god, she's hitting her kickserf her
ball toss was further behind her she was. It was
all better, it was all correct, and I was like,
there's margin. This is good. She's under pressure, she's going
to make She's going to be able to make her

(45:41):
second serves. So anyway, she had a couple of little,
little scary moments in this match. It wasn't that easy. Anyway,
she wins in two sets. She comes off the court,
I see her in the hallway and you know Lee
and I, you know, had we always had a pretty fun,
good relationship. And I was like, hey, I was like,
your serf, you're hitting kickserf now and she's like, yeah,

(46:01):
but I almost went back to my old serf because
she hadn't played a match, yeah, under pressure, And this
is on Rod Laver Arena. Everybody loves her there, everyone
knows her. And as you said, it takes ninety days.
She had had not had ninety days. Yeah, she probably
had thirty. Yeah, she probably had thirty days. Yeah, she
maybe had well probably at that stage about thirty days.
And she said, yeah, I almost went back to my

(46:22):
old serf. And I literally looked at her and I go, no,
I go, do not go back to your old serf.
Stay with this. It is so much better, so much better.
Sure enough, she won this strown up in that year
and a lot of coincidence, coincidence I think, not nor
credit with her German friend and the quarter finals, so
she beat four and one without giving her any chance.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yes, it was me, Yeah, you gave her the confidence.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Did she double faulted in the quarter.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
She played amazing.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
I went off the match and I said and pressed,
she's going to win ther Shur and open. Everyone laughed
at me because she hadn't won a slam.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
She had the French.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
She said, was sorry, I'm I misspoke. That was when
she was up a set and a break on Kim
in the final. Yes, because some Chinese person yelled something
at her. Do you remember this, Yeah, I can't remember
the exactly she.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Would have won the Australia.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
Yeah, And everyone was laughing at me because she was
never even close to winning a major tournament and not
the first.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Time she won the French. We just established that.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
And but that was I lost to her when she
lost in the final to Kim, so that was her
first final that.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
I need to leave, all right, you have to take
questions without me, Okay, I will edit out my leaving.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Please you leave that in so people know why you left.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Well, have you go judge a very important cookie competition?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Right, and I talk about the Australia.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Maybe could They said, calm hungry, I haven't eaten anything,
so I don't have to cookies.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Goodbye?

Speaker 2 (47:50):
I love you, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Can you please turn your mic off so you don't interjecting.

Speaker 5 (47:55):
I trust you to answer reader questions about me. We will,
we will she's the commissioner, so now she has to act, right.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
I turned the mic off. Okay, so bye, Caitlin. You
don't have to go out slowly. We all know you're
leaving goodbye anyway. Yeah, so that's I'll never forget that.
So it's possible to do it.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
It is, but it's exactly that moment that you mentioned.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
Is interesting because if she had maybe lost that match,
chances are she will go back to the old thing
and maybe mess up her next the arrest of her year.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
But she went through it, and.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
At that point, it's not like she was like twenty
you know what I mean. That's like she put in
not ten thousand hours, like fifty thousand hours at that
point of hitting a tennis ball the way she was Anyway,
all right, let's get We only have a couple of questions.
I did put it out on Blue Sky good Bye.
We did not put it on Twitter, where I have
more followers, but I'm trying to get people. Oh god,
she could have gone out a little bit more gently.

(48:54):
Usually I put it on Twitter because I have a
lot more followers. But we're trying to move away from
X because it's so toxic. One of the things was.
You can answer this question as well, how, if at all,
has the off season preseason changed through your time in
the tennis world.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
So for me, I started and that was from Munata, Hi, Munata.
So I came on tour.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
When was his name, Larry Larry Stefanki No, Larry.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Curb.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
You're in theason Larry Larry, Larry, Jerry Larry.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
No, the wt A CEO.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
It'll come to me.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Larry Scott.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
Larry Scott, thank you. So he had just come through
with the WTA roadmap. Do you remember this, So he
had taken off the calendar a lot of tournaments. So
when I started, the off season was actually great. I
think it was almost eight weeks. We would have the
WTA final at the end of October or maybe the
latest in the first.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Week of November.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
And obviously when I started on tour, I wasn't qualified
for the WTA finals, so my season would end mid
of October, and it was amazing enough time to get
enough rest and then start the pre season in enough time.
And then when I retired in the end of my
career in mid November. Yeah, it was later and later,

(50:18):
especially with Billy Jing king Cup moving then and I
always played Billy jing King Cup moving to the second
week of November.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
I was done mid November. I was over thirty.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
My body was not recovering as quickly anymore, and my.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Off season shrunk more and more.

Speaker 4 (50:32):
And in the end, I think in my last year,
I had maybe three weeks of actual good practice or
nowhere I could practice without just you know, because when
you're older, every single little injury that you take with you,
it takes double the time to recover. So I could
only start a bit later with my off scene. So
I think that's the biggest difference that in the beginning

(50:52):
when I started, when I didn't need it because I
was nineteen and I recovered in a day.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
I had enough time for everything.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
And in the end, especially with the Billy jan Kin
Cup moving to so late, it was tougher and tougher
to get everything under which.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Is why I might comment about having that be after that.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
How was it for use and having the wt.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Finals after the season. Same same for me. I mean,
I you know, don't want to brag, but I made
thirteen WTA finals, so I was playing right until you know,
I was on tour for twenty two years, so for
me the same thing. It was like, WTA finals are
certainly getting later and later and later. Cup, Billy Jing
King Cup, hadn't I didn't play that late. I think

(51:33):
I'd retired by the time it started to move to
that point because we were playing home and away ties then,
so you know, you were playing at home and away
blah blah blah, and usually the last final or whatever
it was after the US Open. So yeah, absolutely, it's
just gotten harder and harder and more and more shit
on the calendar, and it needs to stop as far
as I'm concerned. Anyway. That was one question. Another one

(51:55):
was somebody asked me any coaching talks for you, no name,
no need to name names. But I'm actually I will
be helping out Alan Perez in the little doubles stuff.
I'm going to help her out at the start of
the year.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
So tell me please, what is the motion picture that
has a similar Is it also Elan Perez?

Speaker 1 (52:12):
No, that's Amelia Amelia Perez. Oh, okay, that's the movie
that Caitlin made me watch because I keep.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
Saying to everyone, I really want to watch this movie.
I want to know what people in tennis are like.
There's a movie about Alan Peretz.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
You should watch it and let me know, Okay, because
Caitlin thinks it's the best movie of the year.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Okay, I think it was. Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
I wasn't really into the singing. It's very unique. It's yes,
it's a musical slash. It's interesting. Okay, it's it's interesting,
but not my super cup of tea. But I what
I would do is because but I couldn't do this
in the movie theater. I would fast forward through the
like singing parts because I was like, I'm not going

(52:52):
it was okay, but you're going into it knowing it's
a music call music that I know. So I was
mentally prepared for that, whereas with this one, I was like,
I don't know if I'm mentally prepared to see you know.
I mean, the story is really interesting, you know the
story behind it, right the person there's a man who
is literally like a Mexican drug lord and he transitions

(53:15):
to a woman. Oh, and he escapes out of this
and then becomes actually a really good person. I'm paraphrasing,
like crazy, So it's like the whole time. And then
there's this lawyer, she's a I can't remember her name.
If Kaitlyn was here, she would know because she's quite
attractive and she's really Caitlyn's type. But Zoe Zoe Seldana, Yes,

(53:37):
so I think it's always anyway. She plays a lawyer
who represents this this man who transitions into and it's yeah,
it's interesting. It's interesting. Like at the end, I was like, Okay,
it wasn't bad. I didn't think I was going to
get through it. But I managed, mainly because I needed
to talk to Kitlyn. But I love that she's not
here hearing me. I'm not sit talking. It is interesting.

(54:00):
I think you would probably I don't know. I'm not
going to tell you anything. You watch it and just
let me know, okay. Anyway, So yeah, so that is
the question. So I will be doing a little bit
of work with somebody.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
With Ellen, with Ellen, anything on the horizon.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
No, I told you. It's two years since working with
Serena and I've had two people now, one I will
not name, but was in the top ten, but they
went with somebody else, and mainly because they didn't want
me to be you know, I'm still working for ESPN,
So it is tough for people because they want you
twenty four to seven. But also I do say, well,
Darren Kyhill's doing pretty well and he works for ESPN.

(54:36):
And you know, Brad Gilbert did pretty well a couple
of years ago with Coco when he was working for ESPN.
So it is possible. But that is it I've had.
And then Ellen, it's just you know, and now there's
certain men that just literally get a job every two
weeks and they get fired two weeks later. They hired
again Sasha Bajans back in the picture with Donna VICKI like,

(54:57):
you know, like these people just boom, They're just like
they're like they're like hemorrhoids. They just come back anyway.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
They who love this analogy.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
I love that analogy. Okay, so what about you? Would
you have a coach? I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (55:11):
I mean, honestly, I'm not gonna say no in maybe
a few years, but you know, I kind of also
retired to not have to travel around the tennis schedule.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
And that's what you were working at more than I've
ever seen you work.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
And also the thing is I think that what you
and I talked to Boris Becker about it for a
long time when he started coaching Novak he said five
years before he couldn't have done it because you need
to let go of a certain type of ego that
helped you when you were a tennis player, not only
helped you, but made you who you are as a
tennis player. And we all know Boris had a huge

(55:44):
ego as a tennis player. And he said, just five
years earlier, had Novak asked him, he would have done it,
but he would never have been good because because he
couldn't getto had the ego of a tennis player. And
then when he did start with Novak, he was much wiser,
much more mature. He didn't need the accolades of a
tennis player anymore. He was ready to give himself into

(56:07):
this in a different way.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
So on that light, which we didn't talk about last week,
what do you think about Andy Murray?

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Well, that's what that's why we were talking about it. Actually,
that was it because I asked him. So that's the
only thing that I have. I think Andy could or
will be an incredible coach one day. Because if you
ever hear about well, that's what let me finish for
a second, because whenever you hear him talk about tennis
and tactics, and strategy. He has an incredible tennis he guys.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
I talked to him.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
We had the same coach, a German guy for a while.
I talked to him about it and he had very
potent to Andy, and I asked him what did you like?

Speaker 3 (56:44):
What didn't you like?

Speaker 4 (56:45):
And the way he talked about it, he had very
particular needs and desires in the work on the court,
which made me realize, Oh, he also knows what he
needs as a tennis player on the court, because some
players are really good tactically but don't actually.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Know what to work on court.

Speaker 4 (57:02):
What should I do today, yes, to achieve that tactical intelligence.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
But he had both.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
So I think the only thing that I and it
comes back to Boris And that's what's the question I
asked him, was has Andy let go enough of the
tennis player persona to be there fully for Novak without
having this own thing in the way, Because I know
how and I've just finally let go of I'm a
tennis player.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Now I say I used to be a tennis player.
I work in TV. Now I'm a writer.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
But I used to a year ago, I was already
a year retired. I would still sometimes blurret out I'm
a tennis player and then had to realize I'm not.
You know, that's the only thing that is a question mark.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
I think that Andy will be fine. Yeah. I don't
think the ego part of what will get in his
way at all. I think that he is so emotional,
like he's very high emotional intelligence. And I think that
he also understands Novak's crazy, because let's face it, Andy
was crazy as well. And I do think like me
for example, like I can understand somebody who's crazy, and

(58:02):
I can relate to them and I can empathize with them,
but I can also help them because I'm like, look,
it doesn't help you know.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
What I mean?

Speaker 1 (58:09):
And Andy knows that Andy knows. Look, no, Andy knows
just like him, he needs to release the tension, He
needs to release the frustration. Like I remember, you know,
very specifically, during the during the Olympic final, him turning around,
and I always text you, I'm like, what did he say?

Speaker 3 (58:23):
What did he say?

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Because you speak his language clearly, And I said, and
somebody wrote me on X and told me what he said,
because I said, please, somebody out there who speaks Serbia
and let me know what he said, and he was
yet he yelled at his box. I've been yelling at
you for two hours and you haven't told me anything essentially, right,
And I'm like, if he says that to Andy, Andy's
going to be like, yeah, I feel you, bro like

(58:46):
because that's something I would yell out. Yeah, but he
also understands it's not personal. Yeah, right. And I always say,
as a as a coach, and I know what I
was like as a player as well, I don't take
anything personally from you as a player to me as
a coach until you make it personal to me, right,
if you said something personally against me, Like, what do

(59:09):
you mean, Well, that's that.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
Kind of personal. I've been yelling at you and you
haven't been telling me anything.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Well.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
Well, but in some ways they probably have been. He
just hasn't he'd had the capacity to listen in that moment.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
Either he wasn't listening or he couldn't take it in
or what they told him didn't work. So he's like,
in his eyes, he's probably like, you haven't told me
anything that's helping, yeah, right. I Like, for example, if
I'll give you a really quick example, like Serena, I've
told you this story. How you know, she had a
really tough warm up before the second round of the
US Open. She came late because the traffic was really bad,

(59:45):
and you you know, as it happens, you know, you
get an accident on the freeway coming out and it
can take thirty minutes from the city or an hour,
you know, And it took longer than expected, and she
rushed under the practice court, so she hadn't done her
proper stretching, and just she was very stressed, right, and
you know, and of course she's very stressed. This is
a big tournament for her, big match for her, playing

(01:00:06):
against contivate, who at the time was number two player
in the world, which is crazy. And so she was
very stressed. And her hitting partner was having a bad
day as well. He normally hits the ball perfectly for her,
and he was having a bit of a rough day
as well because he was probably nervous too, and he
could probably feel the tension. And she hit one ball
in the literally in the bottom of the net on purpose,

(01:00:26):
and I'm like standing there going, oh my god, like
this is okay. If I'm really coaching and if I'm
really going to make a difference here. I need to
step in here because my old coach used to say
to me because I used to get the shits in
practice as well as we all do, especially when you're stressed,
and he used to say to me grubs. He used
to call me grubs Ray Ruffles. He'd say, you can't
win the match, but you're certainly helping yourself lose it.

(01:00:48):
You know, you can't win the match in practice, but
you're helping yourself lose it. And I never forgot that
because it's so true, because I'm like, yeah, I'm not
really okay, yeah I'm stressed and all that sort of stuff,
But do I really need to self sabotage? And the
really good of really good example of that was on
Zibur before she played the second to last or the
second Wimbledon final, when she lost to Vondrosova. She had

(01:01:11):
the worst warm up I've ever seen because we could
see it in the in the no at Wimbledon. You
know how you have the TVs on, you have you
have the in feed, right, so we had the camera
on center court while in our production meeting at ESPN,
so we could see her warming up. She came onto
the court in all black and started hitting, and after
ten minutes somebody from the club came out and said,

(01:01:32):
you can't practice in black. Yeah, you have to. At Wimbledon,
everybody knows you have to play in all white, even practice,
even the finalists, even on senate court. And so they
came out and told us. So she had to run
off the court get change, came back and her warm
up was terrible. She was missing ball. She was not
throwing her racket, because you can't do that Wimbledon because

(01:01:53):
you get in trouble. But she was just she had
the shits, she was It was such a bad warm
up and I was looking at it, and we were
all looking at it, and we're like, this is bad,
this is not good. And if I was coaching her
at that point, I would have literally walked into the
nat and said we're not hitting anymore, Like we're done.
I'm going to feed you a couple of balls. Was
very windy, as it was very windy, but not inside

(01:02:14):
sena cord and you're very protected inside. For Drousipa, I
saw coming from a rangie where it was fifty mile
an hour wind. Yeah, and she went over to hit
out there. So she was like ah, fuck it, and
I'm gonna go hit it. I don't care. I'm not
changing because they said you can hit on Sena Cord
to her final, and she chose to go to a range,
which was classic because it was the worst warm up,
but she took it in his stride. She was just like, whatever,

(01:02:35):
I'm in the final. I'm happy if I win, great
if I don't. Whatever. And whereas Arms had a lot
of pressure on her shoulders to win that tournament and
she had the worst warm up and that's where you
as a coach. So that moment with Serena, I'll never
forget it. I was like, all right, I got I
gotta be a coach here, and I have it on
film and I sent it to her because we laugh
about it now. And I literally walked up to her

(01:02:56):
and I stopped her hitting the next ball out of
her hand, and I got in between her and the
racket and the ball and I just said to her,
you one, you cannot win this match. I just told
her what Ray told me. But you're helping yourself lose it.
And she goes, yeah, I'm just trying to get a
good warm up. And he's not moving and he's not
hitting it in the Bible, and she's just so stressed, right,

(01:03:16):
And I was like, okay, but like you know, let's
not destroy ourselves right now, right, And I can tell you,
and this is the difference between great and good. She's
she heard me, and she was so much better in
that warm up. And then the next time I talked
to her about something on her return, she looked me
dead in the eyes and it was like she had
given me the respect. Also say, I was kind of
shitty with you back then. I snapped at you, and

(01:03:37):
I shouldn't have, but I knew right away that she
heard me. Now, if she said to me, listen, you're lesbian,
back off.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
But that's what I'm saying about being personal. Right, If
she said listen, you're what do you? You don't know anything?
She's attacking If you're attacking me, yeah, that's when, as
a coach or as a person, you go, yeah, I'm
I'm walking off this court now, as opposed to getting
stressed because she's stressed. That's what I mean about I
don't take it personally until you make it personal. That's

(01:04:09):
the difference. And I think Andy Novak might say something
or snap, and Andy will be like, order off a
duck's back. He'll be like, I get it, man, you
stressed out. It's good. Now. If he turned around and said, oh,
you didn't beat me here at this strain open, what
the fuck do you know? That's making it personal, right,
So that's what I mean by yeah. So I think
that Andy will do a great job. So there you
go that we've answered that question. All right, So last

(01:04:29):
question and then we got to wrap this up. Someone said,
who's your favorite doubles player and who plays the most
like a classic style good volley or etc.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
You said it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
I said it last week, Sarah Rani. That was from
Logan H. Spance. Thanks for the question, I think, Sarah Rani.
I mean it's not super classics, not like Servant Balie,
Lisa Raymond, Kara Black Me style, but she certainly tries
to play doubles. Doubles I think, you know, Aaron Ratliffe
and Gabby Dobrawski try, they do come into the net,

(01:05:01):
they try and do those sorts of things. I think
Sinne Yakovos definitely at the net as much as possible,
but she pays from the back. So you know, Taylor
Taylor Townsend sort of, but she plays on the back
the only real I mean, Katie McNally, and hey, kudos
to Katie. She just want to challenge hers. She's coming
back from a really terrible elbow injury. I think it
was or I can't remember the injury, but good to

(01:05:21):
see her back. She plays a very classic servant's folly style.
She was the player that I saw player and I thought, oh,
as like if I was still playing on tour, that
would be a player that I would like to play with.
So Katie, nice to see you back, hopefully back inside
the top one hundred and singles real soon. All right, well,
I think we've wrapped it up for today. I think
we have, so thanks for joining us, everybody straight open.

(01:05:42):
It's getting closer and close, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
I thought we would have nothing to talk about because
it's the end of the season, but we somehow managed
to blab her on.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
We blab her on, so thanks, and Caitlin left us early,
thank god. Anyway, all right, everyone, we'll see you next week.
Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
J JeOS.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
About back

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Conduct,

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