April 9, 2020 • 42 mins
Esther gives Ron the hard truth about his break up with Sia.
CREDITS:
Host, Writer, and Executive Producer: Ron Burgundy
Co-host, Writer and Producer: Carolina Barlow
Producer: Nick Stumpf
Talent Producer: Anna Hossnieh
Writers: Andrew Steele and Jake Fogelnest
Engineered, Mixed and Edited by Nick Stumpf
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Who's that man talking in my ear? He's rong Burndy.
Good night everyone, This was Ron and another episode of
the Run Run. What you're introducing the shell? Oh? Sorry? Yeah?
(00:24):
Is it that you, Carolina? Yes, that's me. You're staring
directly at me in the daylight at a rough night. Folks,
if you're listening, if this microphone is even on, I'm
I'm gonna give it to you straight. I am Unwell,
if you've never gone through a breakup with a pop star,
(00:45):
well it's like a normal breakup, except you can listen
to them and google them and wear their wigs for hours,
hours upon hours all night. Even listen, I know that
last episode you and see it broke up on air,
which was crazy, and it kills me. How heartbroken you've been.
(01:06):
I don't know what you mean. I never said I
was heartbroken. Save the drama for your improv class. Listen,
you watched the whole series of Gilmore Girls in five days.
That's eight seasons of a one hour show. That where
you lead, I will follow? Okay, um, Well, today we
have a famous psychotherapist, Esther Perel. She's amazing. I think
(01:28):
it's perfect timing. Wait, we have a guest today. Wait,
it's it's Esther Parrel. See you and I would listen
to her podcast over coffee. Esther is here today? Is
that what you're saying? Yes? Yes, should I shower? That depends?
When's the last time you showered? I showered on Tuesday?
(01:48):
So yesterday? Okay, yesterday was Sunday. So you showered about
a week ago. Yeah, I think maybe that's what happened.
Is it? It's over four years ago? This is so
Laura li Gilmore of me and you're my little brainy
act daughter. Rory, Rory, You're better go to Harvard. Okay,
(02:11):
I'm gonna help you get up. Okay, a great timing.
By the way, Carolina, you booked Esther Parrel after my
long distance pop star girlfriend and I broke up. Wow,
really cool. I'm single. Time for me to get into
couples canceling. Let's just splash water on your face. And
have you ever played the Gilmore Girls drinking game? It's
where you watch Gilmore Girls and you drink every time.
(02:34):
See it doesn't call you all right, We'll be back
with Esther Parrell after this message. Oh oh, that's cool.
You just threw a bucket of water. I'm sorry. It
was the only thing we could do. You're falling apart. Gosh,
does anyone to have a hair dryer? And we're back
(03:02):
with the Ron Bergny Podcast. I just want to announce
to our listeners that Ron has splash and water on
his face. Yes, we combed his hair a fresh blazer.
He's wearing a woman's medium blazer, so it's a little tight,
but it looks good. It looks I don't mind the
(03:23):
look at all. No, it looks great. And I look
like Elizabeth Taylor a national velvet. That's a great example. Um,
and yeah, we're ready to record. I think good. No,
I feel fit as a fiddle, and I have to
admit and I you know me, I don't. I don't
(03:43):
admit this off. And I'm a little jealous of our
guest today. Really wow, I do find that surprising. You're
kind of in different fields. Well it comes down to
this Carolina. You know those Ted talks, right, She's given
like a billion of them and I haven't done one.
That's true. And I've made it known to the people
that at the TED conference, I'd be happy to come
(04:04):
out and do a Ted talk anytime. And the response
has been loud and clear, repeatedly no. Thanks. Well, they
cover such different topics, So what would your TED talk
even be about? Literally anything? I mean I told them
they could. They could pick the subject and I just
get up there and I'd wing it. There's literally thousands
(04:24):
of TED talks I could give on many subjects. Okay,
I'm starting to see why maybe you're not getting the
response you wanted. I mean, I think you need to
pick a specific topic. Well, I can do that. I'll
do that right off the top of my head right now. Okay, fine,
I'm just spitballing here. Um, Barracudas. I know, I know
a lot of cool stuff about Baracutas. Bam TED talk
(04:45):
on Barracudas, the fish with sharp teeth. Now, just give
me a headset, Mike and let me go off. I
think that's exactly what they're hesitant to do. Really well,
then it's it's their loss. I mean, think about it, Carolina,
I would kill a TED talk, and you know it, right,
whatever the subject is, how to fix your VCR, being
(05:07):
a successful arsonist, whatever, it's just these Silicon Valet dweebs
think they're better than me. I don't know if anyone
needs a VCR right now? And wait, are you suggesting
a Ted talk about being an arsonist ron? I don't
think that's what they're looking for, and I don't think
that you should talk about it. Oh well, it doesn't matter.
Once again, you've completely derailed what was supposed to be
(05:29):
my guest intro and you brought us completely off topic.
May I introduce our guests today? Please? You brought up
the whole Ted talk thing. I'm following you. Well, let's
just drop it. And yes, I do know some things
about arson, but that should be a whole different episode.
I don't think we should do that. Our guest today
is well renowned as an expert in her field, the
(05:49):
study of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to say
it like that. Well that's a clinical way. Um. We'll
see what she said that's appropriate or not. Um. She
is a psycho therapist, best selling author, podcast host. I
know what that's like, right. And in sen she was
(06:10):
named as one of a hundred Influential Leaders by Oprah
Winfreyes Super Soul one hundred list. Again, I don't want
to make this about me, but I'm I'm pretty sure
I almost made the Super Soul one d list. I
was like, one oh one, Ron, you did not make
any lists that Oprah made. Okay, Carolina, stop, I'm not
implying our esteemed guest took my place on Oprah's Super
(06:32):
Soul one hundred list by any means, no, no way
she earned it. It's actually our honor to sit down
with her today. You're absolutely right. I do think my
spot on Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list was taken
by the band Imagine Dragons. I think that's look it
up there on the list. I understand it's heavy competition.
(06:53):
There's some amazing people, but come on, you've got Ron
Burgundy just sitting out there with his dick in the wind,
and then you you pick Imagine Dragons. Call me petty
if you want, But anyway, joining us now is an
amazing person who I would like to quote because I
think there's a lot of truth in her words. The
(07:14):
quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.
Those words ring true to me, and they're they're from
our guests. So if you could just shut your apper, Carolina,
and please welcome to the program, Dr Esther Perell. Dr Perell,
thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure to
be here. But you need to take the word doctor
out of it. Oh should we not? One? Okay, well,
(07:36):
let's uh who put that in my script? It's okay,
doesn't think anything away from me? Just as a nickname.
Can I call you a doctor? Doc? Doc perel? It
sounds like a Remember it is not real. It's not
real because I cannot misrepresent my sin. Well, then let
me just say Esther, I'm just I'm fascinated by your journey.
(07:57):
You you grew up an antwer Belgium. Correct, You studied
in Jerusalem, and then you came to the United States
for graduate school, right, and I believe that's where you
fell in love with New York City. And for our
listeners who have never been to New York or or Carolina,
who wouldn't last ten minutes in that town, what is
it like to fall in love with New York City?
(08:19):
And and what did New York mean to you at
that time in your life? Okay, a little correction. I
fell in love with a man with New York City.
But together we came to New York City and the
best way for me today. But he was not a
New Yorker. No, not that a Southerner, um like as
in the Southern United States, as in southern United And
(08:40):
it was he from Alabama, Atlanta or Atlanta. So you
fell in love with this gentleman. And New York for
me was basically the one place I really wanted to
live if I was to stay in the US, which
I didn't know that I would stay. I came for
one year. I just didn't use my return ticket, and
the reason being that I think it's a city with
(09:00):
a soul. I always though there are cities with character
and cities with soul. Sorry that's my phone. And the
ones with soul they basically reflect your inner state. But
it's a dirty soul with gum stuck to the bartimes.
And sometimes when you are ecstatic, it just makes you
feel like you are on top of the world as well.
It's both, and it reflects the darkest and the most
(09:22):
luminous sides. But it is a romantic place. It's a
great city to fall in love with, absolutely right. New
York is. Also it's a it's a great city for heartbreak,
wouldn't you say. And it's a perfect city to be
a psychotherapist. Well, if you have a broken heart. In
New York you can identify with every piece of paper
on the street, and you just feel like you are
(09:44):
dejected and rejected. And in terms of being a therapist,
I would say that New York is a great place
to come with a dream, with an ambition, with a
desire to try out something, with a wish to reinvent yourself.
It's filled with refugees of all sorts. Did you just
clean up? I mean, and your practice just treating New
(10:04):
Yorkers who are still in constant need of therapy. You
make a lot of money, right with all the New Yorkers.
I think you have a very misconception of psychotherapy. You
see when I mean, I happen to work in private practice,
but many of us do not. We work in hospitals,
(10:25):
we work in clinics. We work with people who have
very little run ye um. If you really want lucrative
and if you want to make money, then doing psychotherapy
is probably not the best way to do so. But
if you want meaning inspiration as a profession with very
little agism, actually, because you can practice until your brain
(10:48):
stops functioning, then it is really, you know, dealing with
the human life. Human psyche, the human suffering, the human spirit,
the human resilience is probably be one of the most
inspiring profession. It has to be rejuvenating in a way.
Sometimes sometimes it's very lonely. Sometimes it's quite isolating. You
(11:09):
sit alone with people and you absorb a lot, a
lot of their life experiences, and so it's very important
to be highly supported, highly rejuvenated by other things actually
as well, not just because it's heavy to absorb the
experience for other people. And yet there's always a Sabarros
(11:31):
around the corner, and you can you can go and
get get energy from from going to sabarrows or sitting
on a park bench. But I like you like sabars. Okay,
what what do you like the pizza with the spicy pepperoni? No,
I like the flat diet coke flat. Yes, yes, that's
what I like that They don't really you can't find
(11:53):
it out here and where we're talking this place, Los Angeles. Yes,
thank you, Carolina. Um are you at that stage of
what of memory? Menopause? Oh? Men? Memory? No, I have
a very sharp memory. You forgot your first name? I
(12:13):
did at the beginning of this podcast. I did for
just a second um, but that is also a sign
of great intelligence I've read. So let me ask you this,
what was it that sparked you to begin focusing on
the world of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to
say it like that. So I did relationships long before
I touched sexuality. But I've thought that family systems. Families
(12:39):
are probably the most complex relational system. Let me sorry,
that's my phone. Don't you just turn it onto airpoint mode? Yeah,
let me let me just do that? And it is riveting, unending.
It's just never twice the same. And um, I got very,
very interested. Instead of just focusing on working with indeed usuals,
(13:00):
I've wanted to work with individuals in their relational systems.
And first it was families, then it became couples, and
I realized, I'm endlessly fascinating by working with couples because
it's a it's a system that can be blissful or
it can be hell. It's and everything in between. What
two people can do to each other, it's just infinite.
(13:21):
And then gradually I got interested in dealing with the
subject of sexuality because, um well, I kind of was
very intrigued with at the time the Clinton scandal and
what it meant in terms of how this society in
the United States addresses the subject of sexuality and how
different it is from many other places. And but more importantly,
(13:44):
I think that sexuality is probably in every society, the
part where the most archaic, rooted and trenched traditional views
and beliefs are lodged is around sexuality. And the place
that where the most radical progressive change take place in
a society or in a culture is also around sexuality.
You wrote an article in search of erotic intelligence, and
(14:08):
that was a bit of a career milestone for you. Correct.
Can you talk about that? I was interested in America's
attitude responses towards the subject of sexuality. But there is
no public health policy for adolescent sexuality in the United States.
Oh sorry, I thought it was on airplane mode it
(14:29):
obviously we're in the middle of an energy I just
want to be able to have a visual contact with it.
Go ahead. Continue. In Europe, we think that sexuality is
natural and being irresponsible is the problem, and that's what
you need to educate for. In the United States, sex
is seen as the risk factor in and of itself,
(14:51):
and as a result, people are left often very ignorant
and making an enormous amount of mistakes. I was interested
in why it is that the posterrapy feel that I
was part of spoke so little about sexuality when we
know how central sexuality is to modern relationships and modern love.
I was interested in the politics of sexuality. I was
(15:12):
interested in the troubles that people have around it. And
I just thought it is an absolutely unexplored terrain. The
sexologists don't talk about relationships, and the relationship therapists talk
very little about sexuality, and I wanted to create that bridge.
You know, I am a firm believer in talking about sexuality.
I mean, way back when I was I talked about
(15:34):
sexuality constantly at nauseam. And why did you talk about Well,
I just like, you know, I'd be at a cocktail party,
like is everyone having enough sex? And I just wanted to,
you know, address the elephant in the room. And did
people gather around you or slowly walk to the bar? Exactly? No,
I was shunned. But you both want to take away
the shock value of it. Yes, I wanted to, you know,
(15:56):
not make it such a big deal. But it is
a deal. It is a big deal. It's just that
you can have something that is beautiful and a big
deal or something that is shameful, guilty inducing, filled with secrecy. Okay,
I went to the other side. I'm just theorizing here.
But let me ask you this. Do you believe there
(16:17):
is erotic intelligence on other planets? I don't think there's
any public scientific research to back it up. But I
guess what I'm asking is, could there be sexy aliens
out there? I have no idea, and ultimately I am
not necessarily that interested about that. Yeah, I'm very interested
in cultivating erotic intelligence here, but let's be very clear.
(16:41):
When I talk about erotic intelligence, it's not about teaching
people to have sex or better sex. People have done
sex for centuries and sometimes felt nothing. Women all over
the world know that. What I'm interested in is how
do you help people experience a sense of aliveness centuries
of sex? Yes, yes, yes, sis when it was a
duty and an obligation, or when it is or when
(17:04):
when people can naturally dispose of you. There is not
much talk about pleasure, about excitement, about intimacy, about connection.
Run are you on your phone? M h, no listening?
So I'm not interested so much in sex. I'm interested
in the poetics of sex, the meaning we give to it,
what makes it totally human. Yes, but back to the aliens,
(17:28):
I mean, maybe they're just way better. Maybe they're better
at sex and love than us because they haven't advanced
alien sex. So what, I can't do anything with it.
I don't know where they are and they haven't come
to teach me, so I can only rely or the
government doesn't want us to know. Oh, you're in that one.
I'm just saying you just provocative. I watched your Ted
(17:51):
talk Rethinking infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved,
and I got a lot out of it. And call
me old fashioned, but I believe infidelity is wrong. It's
the ultimate betrayal. What what are your thoughts? Infidelity has
existed since marriage was invented, and so to the taboo
(18:13):
against it, it has been practiced in Tao, it's forbidden.
I only know taboo of the men's colonne or is
it a female colonne taboo? I think it's it's in
a marvelous scent. It's like a dusky Motels. It is
a dusky Motels. But it really takes me back. But
what just to my childhood. Um, but having an affair,
(18:38):
isn't it just it's fundamentally so here's the thing. Unless
you're away on assignment right work in news, and it
can be a real pressure cooker. But here here's how
I will quickly answer you on this one. It has
been there forever. It's often seen as black or white,
good or bad, right or wrong, and it is a
(19:01):
lot more complicated than that. It's beyond painful, it's beyond confusing.
It throws entire relationships into disarray. And I thought that
we need to find a way to address it with
more nuance and more complexity than just straight flat out
judgmental nous that just troys sometimes even very good relationships.
(19:24):
And I wanted to think about the kids. I wanted
to think about the entire social community that surrounds couples.
And to just go into this it's wrong. It's the
worst thing that some people can do. I wanted to
also say that a lot of couples deal with varieties
of relational betrayals made right classic example, that's not the
(19:48):
one I'm talking about. I'm actually saying something different. I'm
saying that there is lots of different ways people betray
each other and that it's not just a perpetrator victim story. Wow,
did you hear all of that in the Ted talk?
That part I missed because you were in your childhood? Well, no,
(20:09):
because I had to run to the bathroom. Yes, I
made you do that to fulfill you know, I and
I also had to fill up a big bowl of
chips pringles. Look, can I get personal with you for
a moment. That's what people do with I'm recently out
of a relationship and it ended mutually on good terms.
(20:31):
We are we're both were very mature about it. And
here's a bit about us too successful driven And I
don't know if this complicates it even more, but it's
a fact. We're both of us are famous people. Fame
was involved. I was, I was in a celebrity couple. Okay,
you might want to ask this privately off the air. No, No,
it's fine. Everyone knows that I was dating the international
(20:54):
pop Starcia and I don't know what it was esther,
But we really, we really connect. There was a balance
we brought each other and the only problem was our schedules.
Do do you have any advice for those who find
themselves in a long distance relationship. If you're going to
be in a long distance relationship, you want to mark
(21:15):
time differently since you don't have the every day to
come home later. They contact, they contact the regularity. So
what so you you create a different architecture of time
in the relationship where you meet. It's very intense during
a few days, sometimes the week, the two and then
you are a part. I think sometimes the most important
thing is not to have the space in between, the
(21:37):
dead space, but to find a way to make that
remain vibrant in the relationship. And that means not that
you have your cameras on where both people are in
the kitchen talking about you know, so no no camera
crews following you in your day to day if you
can help it. No, it's I think actually letter writing
is way more powerful. Letter writing the lost art of
(22:01):
how people used to sit to take a letter, open
it and immerse themselves in it and spend time with
another person who's not there but were so immediate and
palpable at the same time. But what if you don't
know how to write in cursive my letter it's chicken
scratch type type of way. Type of ways. So written
(22:24):
is very powerful, but type of way to go and
send an email, but it is there's something about writing
and about sitting with someone's words that kind of enter
you like that that is extremely powerful for long distance relationships.
When when we finally got to see each other, it
was so white hot the passion we missed each other, Yes,
(22:47):
but you had to imagine so many things alone that
when the other thing that when seeing each other did
not manifest according to your dreams and expectations, then it
became big disappointments. You nailed it, because everybody is alone,
they're thinking, when I'll see you, this is what's going
to happen. This is what's going to happen, and then
they see the real person and if that doesn't happen,
then they feel like there's such a gap between the
(23:08):
She'd be like, why do you leave the toilet seat up?
And I'm like what, because yeah, that was a common
argument that there our fight. Isn't that a terribly boring thing?
That this is what it comes down to, the toothpaste
and toilet It's so banal. I don't know if you
(23:29):
can judge it. It's just what we was our trigger,
the toilet seat thing, failing in the ball is a
terrible feeling. But you know, this is where I would
say to you, one of the most important ways to
diffuse absurd arguments is the humor, rather than taking the
toilet seats so literal that this is a sign that
you would fly into such a rage. I take a
(23:51):
sledgehammer and destroy the toilet. It looks like you want
your toilet seat down. Fine, then you'll have no toilet,
and now you have no relationship. I'm toilet. I can't
do better. You know, I'm not totally over it with Cia.
I'll be honest, I'm a wreck. And I mean we
we were intellectual equals. Say that. I still don't know
(24:12):
how it was a thing that you were dating Cia.
Oh come on, Carolina, grow up, um doc, I've got
such a rigorous schedule recording this podcast, and and see
it was also very busy with touring and shooting music
videos and recording hit songs and remixes, not to mention
the animal rights activism. But I'm here working night and
(24:35):
day on this podcast. We record once a week for
maybe an hour, and I just wish we could have
been in each other's lives more. Um So, do you
think there's a chance I could still patch things up
with Cia. We had so much in common. If you
were to patch things up with your girlfriends, Yes, it
(24:56):
would require international recording Starcia. Yes, yes, ya, if you
would be if you want, here's the first thing. Instead
of going into all the grievances and all the things
that she did that annoyed you, give chocolate no, No,
start by doing basically an accountability of where you think
you wish you had been better, where you think that
(25:17):
you went wrong, where you hope that she remembers certain
things that are also dear to you, and I think
reconciliation if you're going in order to finally get her
to agree and acknowledge to all the things that you
have been complaining about all bad. So you have to
ask yourself, do I want to reconnect or do I
(25:37):
want to be right? Oh? I already know the answer. Okay,
well then you know it's never difficult to be right,
but you will be right and alone. If you want
to be with her, you have got to be able
to take responsibility for your part rather than just pointing
(25:58):
finger at her. Yeah. That's the big issue in couples
is that it's such an incredibly tempting blame system. Sometimes
it really is a two way street until it is
a one way street. Okay, let's just shift gears. Um. Now,
Carolina is probably going to be mad at me for this,
but cut it off. But I think it'd be a
(26:19):
waste of her talent if I didn't ask you while
while you were sitting with us, Esther, if I was.
I was recently going through Carolina's purse because I thought
she was stealing from Are you serious? Caroline? I was wrong.
I was wrong. You hadn't stolen the five dollars. I
found it in my blazer. Pardt Why would I steal
(26:41):
five dollars? And I don't know, but I did read
a bit of your diary. Okay, you have crossed a
line here that I do not know you can walk
back from. That's a total invasion of Let me finish,
please let me. I'm about to compliment you now, Esther.
Carolina has written what I think is some incredible erotic
poetry that is for a writing class I am taking.
(27:02):
And it's private, but it shouldn't be private. You've got
serious talent. And I was going to ask Esther if
she would take a look at it and pass it
along to her publisher. How what I would like to
take a look at what. I have a podcast as well.
It's called Housework, Housework, Yes, And in that podcast, I
would welcome to people like you, partners, colleagues, co founders,
(27:25):
writers of erotic poetry. Sure, yes, indeed. And then I
would look at the relationship between the two of you,
and and I would also look at the relationship that
exists inside each of you, the relationship history that makes
you go and open her purse, that makes you go
and look, I was wrong. That's not the point. The
(27:48):
point is not just a way that you were right
or wrong. The point is what drove you to not
ask her first? You've worked with her for so long,
and what made you think that you needed to take
this up on your own rather than checking in with
her first? Because she speaks around sometimes because you come
with a and maybe you come with a predisposition towards suspicion,
(28:09):
even when there is no reason to accept your own history,
but not the current situation between you and her. If
you're missing five dollars, let's put it back on you. Yes,
aren't you going to probably know? The first thing I
think of is what oh, I always lose things. I
actually tend to reflect to refer it back to myself.
(28:30):
And some of us are more inclined to put instantly
put the flashlight on us, and some of us are
more inclined to instantly look for where we can blame
people on the outside est. I want you to be
really honest with me. I just was. But yeah, I'm sorry, Yes,
yes she was. Okay, yes, you're right. Tell me, Carolina
Running and I have a professional relationship, at least as
(28:52):
professionals he's capable of. Is this thank you? Is this
podcast is functional and possibly detrimental to my mental health?
Right for the jugular? Carolina, Okay, I'm sorry. Look, we
clearly have some things we need to work on. But
do you know how much I respect you. You went
through my purse because you thought I stole five dollars,
but you didn't. You didn't, that's the good news true.
(29:17):
And you're also one of the best people I've ever
shared a microphone with. That's nice. Do you know how
long I've been doing this work, Carolina, did you ever
ask yourself, not just if she did or if she
didn't steal it, but on what basis you took it
upon you to go into her stuff. And where that
permission that you gave yourself came from? That you said,
(29:40):
I can, I just, I'm allowed to? Well, I must,
I just I kind of went blind in that moment.
And what blinded you is the question? I ask you,
what made you at that moment not think about your
relationship with her, the collaboration that you've had, how much
respect you have for her, All of that went out
the window in the moment. It was quicker than a
(30:00):
bus ride to Vegas. You know, I just just the
just the pure anger that five dollars was missed, that
someone had just swiped it from me. This ever happened
to you before? By the way, he's gone, asked him,
he's gone through other people's stuff. But the question is,
have I gone through other people's stuff? No? Have you?
(30:21):
Have you been robbed before in a way that made
you feel Because I've been robbed in more than one way,
maybe I therefore can just go. And I have thought
I had been robbed countless times, and it turns out
every time I was not robbed. Yeah, you've gone through
a lot of coats and coat rooms at parties. Why
(30:45):
don't you say, well, because I've I've misplaced like my
keys and things like that, and I thought, oh, maybe
when I met the person, I possibly put my keys
there and wallets and stuff like that. I'm not a
thief if we were. No, I don't think of you
as a thief at all. I think of you actually
more what happened to this guy or what happened to him?
(31:09):
Oh yes, and what happened to you even maybe a
long time ago. That just the sense that things will
be taken away from you by the people that you
trust and that you care about. The most dark parrel
cut into the bone here. You know. I don't think
of you as as evil or as it's just you're
(31:29):
going in there with you know, just a sense of
panic and a sense of excitement. Though that's thrilling to
go through someone's belongings. I'm not gonna lie. There's a
little it's erotic. It's erotic a little. Yes, um, interesting, Well, Jeff.
(31:51):
Siblings Do I have siblings? I have a brother and
a sister back in Iowa. Yes, yeah, I don't see
them as much as yes, I would like. And you
a number I am number one noh in birth yesh
birth order I'm the youngest. Yeah, and they were much
(32:14):
older than me and supposed to pick me up from school.
A lot of times. I had a walk the three
miles home, so they would forget a lot of times.
But that's just that's just the way it was. You know,
I didn't think twice about it. No, you didn't think
twice about it. But you know, we have this amazing
thing called explicit memory and implicit memory. The implicit memory
is the way that your body remembers how you had
(32:34):
to fight for everything and make sure that you don't
get left out and you don't get forgotten, and nobody
takes something that belongs to you. Well, shure, that's sometimes
what happens. That's that's what bubbles, bubbles to the surface. Well,
it bubbles in this kind of unconscious way, right, that's
(32:55):
where you suddenly go into her stuff to check if
she took the five dollars, didn't think. Thing is that
we all have these invisible forces that shaped the way
our relationships at work take place, the way we communicate,
where we deal with conflict, you know, and this is
one of those moments. How do we get rid of
these invisible forces? The first thing is you get aware
(33:16):
of them. You realize it because if you keep repeating
she but you didn't take it, you didn't take it,
you can see you are you know, then you don't
spend your time thinking about what was this about me?
I mean me and me and the coat tracks and
the bucks of other people to the flame of conflict
at the end of the day. I don't know. I
love to joust, you know, you like the flame of conflict,
(33:37):
or you like the relief that comes right after we
were prepared to take that I can't resist. So this
is what it's like. This is a this is a
slice of life. This is sys you in my office,
or you in how his work or you and where
should we begin this where you are actually for a
(34:02):
minute not going over to her, and you just say, okay,
let me think about what was going before I rum
to the purse. Take a beat. Maybe this isn't the
best decision. Maybe check my coat pocket first, yes, or
maybe ask oh, you work with so you know her,
she's right there every day with you. Ask her? Why
(34:23):
are you taking it all upon you? Can we do
some role playing here? Okay, Carolina? Can I ask you
a questions? I'm missing five dollars? Did you happen to
take it from me? No, not a question. That's not
a question. That's a statement with a question mark. That's
an accusation that's implied. A question is a question, Carolina. Sure.
(34:46):
A question means that you have to be able to
tolerate the unknown in the moment, rather than trying to
assure what you already. Have you seen five dollars lying
around anywhere? Is that better? Much better? Okay? No, I
haven't really, not anywhere, really, not anywhere, like, not in
your purse. All right, you've lost it? Go back. I'm
(35:09):
missing something. I'm worried. I'm scared. I need them. I'm
not sure what I've done. Can you help me? Carolina? Um,
I'm scared that I've lost five dollars? Can you help me?
Will gladly help you look for it? Have you been?
Shall we retrace your steps? Yeah, let's look. And I've
(35:32):
made a list of five people that I think might
have taken it, and you're near the top of the list.
You can't resist, you know, I'm just being logical. No,
you're not logical. When I look around the room, it's
the logic of fear. It's the logic that can't tolerate
thinking that you made a mistake, so you have to
blame others. It's the logic of deflection. But it's not.
(35:53):
But I don't make that many mistakes. That are you
of all oh twenty local Emmy's later, he is, does
that make sense? I would probably say to him something like,
I know you hate to make mistakes. I know that
when you lose something, it just totally throws you. And
(36:14):
if you could find the culprit right away and just
acknowledge with him and then let's retrace your step, it's
a good way of anchoring someone and just say, you know,
let's go think a moment with me before you just
like through the arrow and just stop him and anchor him.
I know you are usually upset when you're completely wrong.
(36:40):
I don't know what's going on with your brain. You're insane.
You rule my life and you drive me crazy. This
work atmosphere is suffocating. I feel like I'm underwater. How
about this that was? Look? How about this Carolina? I
seem to be missing five dollars. I don't know what
happened to you. Can I borrow five dollars until I
(37:03):
find the five dollars that I lost. I don't have
five dollars to lend you a liar. I long are
you two working together? That ain't gonna last about six years,
but it's felt like a million yes, yes, yes, can't
wit and can't without exactly Thank you, Thank you, Ebony
(37:24):
and Ivory. No, too afraid and too immature to actually
really grow up, and too afraid and too immature to
leave and to be alone. Similar to a stable genius,
very stable genius. You are that stable I am. I
came up with that phrase with the emphasis on very um.
(37:45):
I just wrote a very interesting blog about trust in
the workplace that I think I would recommend to you,
especially because of your inborn suspicion towards Caroline. Well, if
we have time, maybe is that count on your website
esra params separal dot com. It's the newsletter and the
blog and I explore every time. Right after this conversation,
(38:07):
that will have at least two stories. Not only is
it on your your website, but you were also on
Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list with imagined dragons. I
don't know if they made it and not me, Ron Burgundy,
not you, Ron Burgundy, he's a little upset. He feels
like he was snubbed from Oprah's Super Soul on hundred list.
But that's something else that you could explorence that feeling
(38:28):
of loss, lost, feeling left out, undeserving, feeling jealous. Oh
I don't I feel like I deserve um looks not
only that you deserve, you actually feel entitled, entitlement. That's
a big word that in the work like I have,
(38:48):
you deserve nice things and recognition. You said that you
didn't want to come in today like Oprah's Super Soul
one hundred list. Would you like me to put you
on my list? That does not exist yet? But if
I mean, it's not a big deal, but yes, it'd
be great. Thank you. You be on any list, any
(39:09):
list works that you feel that your matter and you exist. Okay,
Estra Parrel. Unfortunately we're out of time right now, and
I want to thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you so much. Also, I think I'm going to
call Sia to see if I can work things out.
And if I get her voicemail, should I do the
normal thing and just keep calling back again and again,
(39:29):
leaving voicemails all night long. Sia. I've been thinking, and
I think I would love for us to have a
conversation or for me to have an opportunity to speak
with you and her together, as I would like it
very much if we could meet. If we don't, I
would I would just like you to know that a
letter will be coming. Okay, and I wish you all well.
(39:54):
Sprel everyone, thank you, Thank you so much, my pleasure.
Thank you for your wisdom and your insight. And it
looks like Carolina and I have a lot of work
to do. We gotta dig deeper. We gotta dig deeper.
Um mostly on her side. It's the Ron Burgundy Podcast.
Will be right back after this. Oh gosh, his phone
(40:24):
and we're back with the Round Burgundy Podcast. Well, esther,
Perel's a genius, but I'm still single. What did you
think was going to happen in that session? Well, I
was under the impression that she would give me a
crystal or or say some spell. I don't know. But
if you noticed, my eyes were on my phone the
(40:44):
entire time and Sea did not text or call. That's true,
you checked your phone at least ten times during the interview,
but it was buzzing like crazy. It was kind of
it was kind of rude. Actually, the worst is when
you're waiting for sea to call, but it's just eight
missed calls from your uncle with dementia. Yeah, I hear that.
(41:04):
I have to move on. There just has to be
more women in the world. There are more women in
the world. There are billions, and I have to stop
watching Gilmore Girls. I thought you finished all the seasons.
I started watching them all over again. Yeah, so I've
got to stop, that is what I mean. I've started
going to gyms and paying them to change all the
TVs to the Gilmore Girls just so I can watch
(41:26):
Gilmore Girls on twenty TVs at once. What why? It's
just comforting you're going through a pop star breakup. I
don't know if it helps with everything, but if Cia
or Adele breaks up with you, then Gilmore Girls is
streaming on Netflix. I feel good withinding our episode with
a plug for Gilmore Girls show that has been off
(41:48):
the air for over a decade. Oh and if you
can catch Rocketman just in time for Awards season. Who knows?
Did I just sweep? This is Ron Burgundy on the
Ron Burgundy Podcast. The Ron Burgundy Podcast is a production
(42:11):
of I Heart Radio. I'm Ron Burgundy, the host, writer
and executive producer. Carolina Barlow is my co host, writer
and producer. Our producer is Nick Stump. Our talent coordinator
is Anna Hostian writers are Andrew Steele and Jake vogel Nest.
This episode was engineered, mixed, and edited by Nick Stunt.
(42:33):
Until next time, this is Ron Burgundy
Who's that man talking in my ear? He's rong Burndy.
Good night everyone, This was Ron and another episode of
the Run Run. What you're introducing the shell? Oh? Sorry? Yeah?
(00:24):
Is it that you, Carolina? Yes, that's me. You're staring
directly at me in the daylight at a rough night. Folks,
if you're listening, if this microphone is even on, I'm
I'm gonna give it to you straight. I am Unwell,
if you've never gone through a breakup with a pop star,
(00:45):
well it's like a normal breakup, except you can listen
to them and google them and wear their wigs for hours,
hours upon hours all night. Even listen, I know that
last episode you and see it broke up on air,
which was crazy, and it kills me. How heartbroken you've been.
(01:06):
I don't know what you mean. I never said I
was heartbroken. Save the drama for your improv class. Listen,
you watched the whole series of Gilmore Girls in five days.
That's eight seasons of a one hour show. That where
you lead, I will follow? Okay, um, Well, today we
have a famous psychotherapist, Esther Perel. She's amazing. I think
(01:28):
it's perfect timing. Wait, we have a guest today. Wait,
it's it's Esther Parrel. See you and I would listen
to her podcast over coffee. Esther is here today? Is
that what you're saying? Yes? Yes, should I shower? That depends?
When's the last time you showered? I showered on Tuesday?
(01:48):
So yesterday? Okay, yesterday was Sunday. So you showered about
a week ago. Yeah, I think maybe that's what happened.
Is it? It's over four years ago? This is so
Laura li Gilmore of me and you're my little brainy
act daughter. Rory, Rory, You're better go to Harvard. Okay,
(02:11):
I'm gonna help you get up. Okay, a great timing.
By the way, Carolina, you booked Esther Parrel after my
long distance pop star girlfriend and I broke up. Wow,
really cool. I'm single. Time for me to get into
couples canceling. Let's just splash water on your face. And
have you ever played the Gilmore Girls drinking game? It's
where you watch Gilmore Girls and you drink every time.
(02:34):
See it doesn't call you all right, We'll be back
with Esther Parrell after this message. Oh oh, that's cool.
You just threw a bucket of water. I'm sorry. It
was the only thing we could do. You're falling apart. Gosh,
does anyone to have a hair dryer? And we're back
(03:02):
with the Ron Bergny Podcast. I just want to announce
to our listeners that Ron has splash and water on
his face. Yes, we combed his hair a fresh blazer.
He's wearing a woman's medium blazer, so it's a little tight,
but it looks good. It looks I don't mind the
(03:23):
look at all. No, it looks great. And I look
like Elizabeth Taylor a national velvet. That's a great example. Um,
and yeah, we're ready to record. I think good. No,
I feel fit as a fiddle, and I have to
admit and I you know me, I don't. I don't
(03:43):
admit this off. And I'm a little jealous of our
guest today. Really wow, I do find that surprising. You're
kind of in different fields. Well it comes down to
this Carolina. You know those Ted talks, right, She's given
like a billion of them and I haven't done one.
That's true. And I've made it known to the people
that at the TED conference, I'd be happy to come
(04:04):
out and do a Ted talk anytime. And the response
has been loud and clear, repeatedly no. Thanks. Well, they
cover such different topics, So what would your TED talk
even be about? Literally anything? I mean I told them
they could. They could pick the subject and I just
get up there and I'd wing it. There's literally thousands
(04:24):
of TED talks I could give on many subjects. Okay,
I'm starting to see why maybe you're not getting the
response you wanted. I mean, I think you need to
pick a specific topic. Well, I can do that. I'll
do that right off the top of my head right now. Okay, fine,
I'm just spitballing here. Um, Barracudas. I know, I know
a lot of cool stuff about Baracutas. Bam TED talk
(04:45):
on Barracudas, the fish with sharp teeth. Now, just give
me a headset, Mike and let me go off. I
think that's exactly what they're hesitant to do. Really well,
then it's it's their loss. I mean, think about it, Carolina,
I would kill a TED talk, and you know it, right,
whatever the subject is, how to fix your VCR, being
(05:07):
a successful arsonist, whatever, it's just these Silicon Valet dweebs
think they're better than me. I don't know if anyone
needs a VCR right now? And wait, are you suggesting
a Ted talk about being an arsonist ron? I don't
think that's what they're looking for, and I don't think
that you should talk about it. Oh well, it doesn't matter.
Once again, you've completely derailed what was supposed to be
(05:29):
my guest intro and you brought us completely off topic.
May I introduce our guests today? Please? You brought up
the whole Ted talk thing. I'm following you. Well, let's
just drop it. And yes, I do know some things
about arson, but that should be a whole different episode.
I don't think we should do that. Our guest today
is well renowned as an expert in her field, the
(05:49):
study of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to say
it like that. Well that's a clinical way. Um. We'll
see what she said that's appropriate or not. Um. She
is a psycho therapist, best selling author, podcast host. I
know what that's like, right. And in sen she was
(06:10):
named as one of a hundred Influential Leaders by Oprah
Winfreyes Super Soul one hundred list. Again, I don't want
to make this about me, but I'm I'm pretty sure
I almost made the Super Soul one d list. I
was like, one oh one, Ron, you did not make
any lists that Oprah made. Okay, Carolina, stop, I'm not
implying our esteemed guest took my place on Oprah's Super
(06:32):
Soul one hundred list by any means, no, no way
she earned it. It's actually our honor to sit down
with her today. You're absolutely right. I do think my
spot on Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list was taken
by the band Imagine Dragons. I think that's look it
up there on the list. I understand it's heavy competition.
(06:53):
There's some amazing people, but come on, you've got Ron
Burgundy just sitting out there with his dick in the wind,
and then you you pick Imagine Dragons. Call me petty
if you want, But anyway, joining us now is an
amazing person who I would like to quote because I
think there's a lot of truth in her words. The
(07:14):
quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.
Those words ring true to me, and they're they're from
our guests. So if you could just shut your apper, Carolina,
and please welcome to the program, Dr Esther Perell. Dr Perell,
thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure to
be here. But you need to take the word doctor
out of it. Oh should we not? One? Okay, well,
(07:36):
let's uh who put that in my script? It's okay,
doesn't think anything away from me? Just as a nickname.
Can I call you a doctor? Doc? Doc perel? It
sounds like a Remember it is not real. It's not
real because I cannot misrepresent my sin. Well, then let
me just say Esther, I'm just I'm fascinated by your journey.
(07:57):
You you grew up an antwer Belgium. Correct, You studied
in Jerusalem, and then you came to the United States
for graduate school, right, and I believe that's where you
fell in love with New York City. And for our
listeners who have never been to New York or or Carolina,
who wouldn't last ten minutes in that town, what is
it like to fall in love with New York City?
(08:19):
And and what did New York mean to you at
that time in your life? Okay, a little correction. I
fell in love with a man with New York City.
But together we came to New York City and the
best way for me today. But he was not a
New Yorker. No, not that a Southerner, um like as
in the Southern United States, as in southern United And
(08:40):
it was he from Alabama, Atlanta or Atlanta. So you
fell in love with this gentleman. And New York for
me was basically the one place I really wanted to
live if I was to stay in the US, which
I didn't know that I would stay. I came for
one year. I just didn't use my return ticket, and
the reason being that I think it's a city with
(09:00):
a soul. I always though there are cities with character
and cities with soul. Sorry that's my phone. And the
ones with soul they basically reflect your inner state. But
it's a dirty soul with gum stuck to the bartimes.
And sometimes when you are ecstatic, it just makes you
feel like you are on top of the world as well.
It's both, and it reflects the darkest and the most
(09:22):
luminous sides. But it is a romantic place. It's a
great city to fall in love with, absolutely right. New
York is. Also it's a it's a great city for heartbreak,
wouldn't you say. And it's a perfect city to be
a psychotherapist. Well, if you have a broken heart. In
New York you can identify with every piece of paper
on the street, and you just feel like you are
(09:44):
dejected and rejected. And in terms of being a therapist,
I would say that New York is a great place
to come with a dream, with an ambition, with a
desire to try out something, with a wish to reinvent yourself.
It's filled with refugees of all sorts. Did you just
clean up? I mean, and your practice just treating New
(10:04):
Yorkers who are still in constant need of therapy. You
make a lot of money, right with all the New Yorkers.
I think you have a very misconception of psychotherapy. You
see when I mean, I happen to work in private practice,
but many of us do not. We work in hospitals,
(10:25):
we work in clinics. We work with people who have
very little run ye um. If you really want lucrative
and if you want to make money, then doing psychotherapy
is probably not the best way to do so. But
if you want meaning inspiration as a profession with very
little agism, actually, because you can practice until your brain
(10:48):
stops functioning, then it is really, you know, dealing with
the human life. Human psyche, the human suffering, the human spirit,
the human resilience is probably be one of the most
inspiring profession. It has to be rejuvenating in a way.
Sometimes sometimes it's very lonely. Sometimes it's quite isolating. You
(11:09):
sit alone with people and you absorb a lot, a
lot of their life experiences, and so it's very important
to be highly supported, highly rejuvenated by other things actually
as well, not just because it's heavy to absorb the
experience for other people. And yet there's always a Sabarros
(11:31):
around the corner, and you can you can go and
get get energy from from going to sabarrows or sitting
on a park bench. But I like you like sabars. Okay,
what what do you like the pizza with the spicy pepperoni? No,
I like the flat diet coke flat. Yes, yes, that's
what I like that They don't really you can't find
(11:53):
it out here and where we're talking this place, Los Angeles. Yes,
thank you, Carolina. Um are you at that stage of
what of memory? Menopause? Oh? Men? Memory? No, I have
a very sharp memory. You forgot your first name? I
(12:13):
did at the beginning of this podcast. I did for
just a second um, but that is also a sign
of great intelligence I've read. So let me ask you this,
what was it that sparked you to begin focusing on
the world of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to
say it like that. So I did relationships long before
I touched sexuality. But I've thought that family systems. Families
(12:39):
are probably the most complex relational system. Let me sorry,
that's my phone. Don't you just turn it onto airpoint mode? Yeah,
let me let me just do that? And it is riveting, unending.
It's just never twice the same. And um, I got very,
very interested. Instead of just focusing on working with indeed usuals,
(13:00):
I've wanted to work with individuals in their relational systems.
And first it was families, then it became couples, and
I realized, I'm endlessly fascinating by working with couples because
it's a it's a system that can be blissful or
it can be hell. It's and everything in between. What
two people can do to each other, it's just infinite.
(13:21):
And then gradually I got interested in dealing with the
subject of sexuality because, um well, I kind of was
very intrigued with at the time the Clinton scandal and
what it meant in terms of how this society in
the United States addresses the subject of sexuality and how
different it is from many other places. And but more importantly,
(13:44):
I think that sexuality is probably in every society, the
part where the most archaic, rooted and trenched traditional views
and beliefs are lodged is around sexuality. And the place
that where the most radical progressive change take place in
a society or in a culture is also around sexuality.
You wrote an article in search of erotic intelligence, and
(14:08):
that was a bit of a career milestone for you. Correct.
Can you talk about that? I was interested in America's
attitude responses towards the subject of sexuality. But there is
no public health policy for adolescent sexuality in the United States.
Oh sorry, I thought it was on airplane mode it
(14:29):
obviously we're in the middle of an energy I just
want to be able to have a visual contact with it.
Go ahead. Continue. In Europe, we think that sexuality is
natural and being irresponsible is the problem, and that's what
you need to educate for. In the United States, sex
is seen as the risk factor in and of itself,
(14:51):
and as a result, people are left often very ignorant
and making an enormous amount of mistakes. I was interested
in why it is that the posterrapy feel that I
was part of spoke so little about sexuality when we
know how central sexuality is to modern relationships and modern love.
I was interested in the politics of sexuality. I was
(15:12):
interested in the troubles that people have around it. And
I just thought it is an absolutely unexplored terrain. The
sexologists don't talk about relationships, and the relationship therapists talk
very little about sexuality, and I wanted to create that bridge.
You know, I am a firm believer in talking about sexuality.
I mean, way back when I was I talked about
(15:34):
sexuality constantly at nauseam. And why did you talk about Well,
I just like, you know, I'd be at a cocktail party,
like is everyone having enough sex? And I just wanted to,
you know, address the elephant in the room. And did
people gather around you or slowly walk to the bar? Exactly? No,
I was shunned. But you both want to take away
the shock value of it. Yes, I wanted to, you know,
(15:56):
not make it such a big deal. But it is
a deal. It is a big deal. It's just that
you can have something that is beautiful and a big
deal or something that is shameful, guilty inducing, filled with secrecy. Okay,
I went to the other side. I'm just theorizing here.
But let me ask you this. Do you believe there
(16:17):
is erotic intelligence on other planets? I don't think there's
any public scientific research to back it up. But I
guess what I'm asking is, could there be sexy aliens
out there? I have no idea, and ultimately I am
not necessarily that interested about that. Yeah, I'm very interested
in cultivating erotic intelligence here, but let's be very clear.
(16:41):
When I talk about erotic intelligence, it's not about teaching
people to have sex or better sex. People have done
sex for centuries and sometimes felt nothing. Women all over
the world know that. What I'm interested in is how
do you help people experience a sense of aliveness centuries
of sex? Yes, yes, yes, sis when it was a
duty and an obligation, or when it is or when
(17:04):
when people can naturally dispose of you. There is not
much talk about pleasure, about excitement, about intimacy, about connection.
Run are you on your phone? M h, no listening?
So I'm not interested so much in sex. I'm interested
in the poetics of sex, the meaning we give to it,
what makes it totally human. Yes, but back to the aliens,
(17:28):
I mean, maybe they're just way better. Maybe they're better
at sex and love than us because they haven't advanced
alien sex. So what, I can't do anything with it.
I don't know where they are and they haven't come
to teach me, so I can only rely or the
government doesn't want us to know. Oh, you're in that one.
I'm just saying you just provocative. I watched your Ted
(17:51):
talk Rethinking infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved,
and I got a lot out of it. And call
me old fashioned, but I believe infidelity is wrong. It's
the ultimate betrayal. What what are your thoughts? Infidelity has
existed since marriage was invented, and so to the taboo
(18:13):
against it, it has been practiced in Tao, it's forbidden.
I only know taboo of the men's colonne or is
it a female colonne taboo? I think it's it's in
a marvelous scent. It's like a dusky Motels. It is
a dusky Motels. But it really takes me back. But
what just to my childhood. Um, but having an affair,
(18:38):
isn't it just it's fundamentally so here's the thing. Unless
you're away on assignment right work in news, and it
can be a real pressure cooker. But here here's how
I will quickly answer you on this one. It has
been there forever. It's often seen as black or white,
good or bad, right or wrong, and it is a
(19:01):
lot more complicated than that. It's beyond painful, it's beyond confusing.
It throws entire relationships into disarray. And I thought that
we need to find a way to address it with
more nuance and more complexity than just straight flat out
judgmental nous that just troys sometimes even very good relationships.
(19:24):
And I wanted to think about the kids. I wanted
to think about the entire social community that surrounds couples.
And to just go into this it's wrong. It's the
worst thing that some people can do. I wanted to
also say that a lot of couples deal with varieties
of relational betrayals made right classic example, that's not the
(19:48):
one I'm talking about. I'm actually saying something different. I'm
saying that there is lots of different ways people betray
each other and that it's not just a perpetrator victim story. Wow,
did you hear all of that in the Ted talk?
That part I missed because you were in your childhood? Well, no,
(20:09):
because I had to run to the bathroom. Yes, I
made you do that to fulfill you know, I and
I also had to fill up a big bowl of
chips pringles. Look, can I get personal with you for
a moment. That's what people do with I'm recently out
of a relationship and it ended mutually on good terms.
(20:31):
We are we're both were very mature about it. And
here's a bit about us too successful driven And I
don't know if this complicates it even more, but it's
a fact. We're both of us are famous people. Fame
was involved. I was, I was in a celebrity couple. Okay,
you might want to ask this privately off the air. No, No,
it's fine. Everyone knows that I was dating the international
(20:54):
pop Starcia and I don't know what it was esther,
But we really, we really connect. There was a balance
we brought each other and the only problem was our schedules.
Do do you have any advice for those who find
themselves in a long distance relationship. If you're going to
be in a long distance relationship, you want to mark
(21:15):
time differently since you don't have the every day to
come home later. They contact, they contact the regularity. So
what so you you create a different architecture of time
in the relationship where you meet. It's very intense during
a few days, sometimes the week, the two and then
you are a part. I think sometimes the most important
thing is not to have the space in between, the
(21:37):
dead space, but to find a way to make that
remain vibrant in the relationship. And that means not that
you have your cameras on where both people are in
the kitchen talking about you know, so no no camera
crews following you in your day to day if you
can help it. No, it's I think actually letter writing
is way more powerful. Letter writing the lost art of
(22:01):
how people used to sit to take a letter, open
it and immerse themselves in it and spend time with
another person who's not there but were so immediate and
palpable at the same time. But what if you don't
know how to write in cursive my letter it's chicken
scratch type type of way. Type of ways. So written
(22:24):
is very powerful, but type of way to go and
send an email, but it is there's something about writing
and about sitting with someone's words that kind of enter
you like that that is extremely powerful for long distance relationships.
When when we finally got to see each other, it
was so white hot the passion we missed each other, Yes,
(22:47):
but you had to imagine so many things alone that
when the other thing that when seeing each other did
not manifest according to your dreams and expectations, then it
became big disappointments. You nailed it, because everybody is alone,
they're thinking, when I'll see you, this is what's going
to happen. This is what's going to happen, and then
they see the real person and if that doesn't happen,
then they feel like there's such a gap between the
(23:08):
She'd be like, why do you leave the toilet seat up?
And I'm like what, because yeah, that was a common
argument that there our fight. Isn't that a terribly boring thing?
That this is what it comes down to, the toothpaste
and toilet It's so banal. I don't know if you
(23:29):
can judge it. It's just what we was our trigger,
the toilet seat thing, failing in the ball is a
terrible feeling. But you know, this is where I would
say to you, one of the most important ways to
diffuse absurd arguments is the humor, rather than taking the
toilet seats so literal that this is a sign that
you would fly into such a rage. I take a
(23:51):
sledgehammer and destroy the toilet. It looks like you want
your toilet seat down. Fine, then you'll have no toilet,
and now you have no relationship. I'm toilet. I can't
do better. You know, I'm not totally over it with Cia.
I'll be honest, I'm a wreck. And I mean we
we were intellectual equals. Say that. I still don't know
(24:12):
how it was a thing that you were dating Cia.
Oh come on, Carolina, grow up, um doc, I've got
such a rigorous schedule recording this podcast, and and see
it was also very busy with touring and shooting music
videos and recording hit songs and remixes, not to mention
the animal rights activism. But I'm here working night and
(24:35):
day on this podcast. We record once a week for
maybe an hour, and I just wish we could have
been in each other's lives more. Um So, do you
think there's a chance I could still patch things up
with Cia. We had so much in common. If you
were to patch things up with your girlfriends, Yes, it
(24:56):
would require international recording Starcia. Yes, yes, ya, if you
would be if you want, here's the first thing. Instead
of going into all the grievances and all the things
that she did that annoyed you, give chocolate no, No,
start by doing basically an accountability of where you think
you wish you had been better, where you think that
(25:17):
you went wrong, where you hope that she remembers certain
things that are also dear to you, and I think
reconciliation if you're going in order to finally get her
to agree and acknowledge to all the things that you
have been complaining about all bad. So you have to
ask yourself, do I want to reconnect or do I
(25:37):
want to be right? Oh? I already know the answer. Okay,
well then you know it's never difficult to be right,
but you will be right and alone. If you want
to be with her, you have got to be able
to take responsibility for your part rather than just pointing
(25:58):
finger at her. Yeah. That's the big issue in couples
is that it's such an incredibly tempting blame system. Sometimes
it really is a two way street until it is
a one way street. Okay, let's just shift gears. Um. Now,
Carolina is probably going to be mad at me for this,
but cut it off. But I think it'd be a
(26:19):
waste of her talent if I didn't ask you while
while you were sitting with us, Esther, if I was.
I was recently going through Carolina's purse because I thought
she was stealing from Are you serious? Caroline? I was wrong.
I was wrong. You hadn't stolen the five dollars. I
found it in my blazer. Pardt Why would I steal
(26:41):
five dollars? And I don't know, but I did read
a bit of your diary. Okay, you have crossed a
line here that I do not know you can walk
back from. That's a total invasion of Let me finish,
please let me. I'm about to compliment you now, Esther.
Carolina has written what I think is some incredible erotic
poetry that is for a writing class I am taking.
(27:02):
And it's private, but it shouldn't be private. You've got
serious talent. And I was going to ask Esther if
she would take a look at it and pass it
along to her publisher. How what I would like to
take a look at what. I have a podcast as well.
It's called Housework, Housework, Yes, And in that podcast, I
would welcome to people like you, partners, colleagues, co founders,
(27:25):
writers of erotic poetry. Sure, yes, indeed. And then I
would look at the relationship between the two of you,
and and I would also look at the relationship that
exists inside each of you, the relationship history that makes
you go and open her purse, that makes you go
and look, I was wrong. That's not the point. The
(27:48):
point is not just a way that you were right
or wrong. The point is what drove you to not
ask her first? You've worked with her for so long,
and what made you think that you needed to take
this up on your own rather than checking in with
her first? Because she speaks around sometimes because you come
with a and maybe you come with a predisposition towards suspicion,
(28:09):
even when there is no reason to accept your own history,
but not the current situation between you and her. If
you're missing five dollars, let's put it back on you. Yes,
aren't you going to probably know? The first thing I
think of is what oh, I always lose things. I
actually tend to reflect to refer it back to myself.
(28:30):
And some of us are more inclined to put instantly
put the flashlight on us, and some of us are
more inclined to instantly look for where we can blame
people on the outside est. I want you to be
really honest with me. I just was. But yeah, I'm sorry, Yes,
yes she was. Okay, yes, you're right. Tell me, Carolina
Running and I have a professional relationship, at least as
(28:52):
professionals he's capable of. Is this thank you? Is this
podcast is functional and possibly detrimental to my mental health?
Right for the jugular? Carolina, Okay, I'm sorry. Look, we
clearly have some things we need to work on. But
do you know how much I respect you. You went
through my purse because you thought I stole five dollars,
but you didn't. You didn't, that's the good news true.
(29:17):
And you're also one of the best people I've ever
shared a microphone with. That's nice. Do you know how
long I've been doing this work, Carolina, did you ever
ask yourself, not just if she did or if she
didn't steal it, but on what basis you took it
upon you to go into her stuff. And where that
permission that you gave yourself came from? That you said,
(29:40):
I can, I just, I'm allowed to? Well, I must,
I just I kind of went blind in that moment.
And what blinded you is the question? I ask you,
what made you at that moment not think about your
relationship with her, the collaboration that you've had, how much
respect you have for her, All of that went out
the window in the moment. It was quicker than a
(30:00):
bus ride to Vegas. You know, I just just the
just the pure anger that five dollars was missed, that
someone had just swiped it from me. This ever happened
to you before? By the way, he's gone, asked him,
he's gone through other people's stuff. But the question is,
have I gone through other people's stuff? No? Have you?
(30:21):
Have you been robbed before in a way that made
you feel Because I've been robbed in more than one way,
maybe I therefore can just go. And I have thought
I had been robbed countless times, and it turns out
every time I was not robbed. Yeah, you've gone through
a lot of coats and coat rooms at parties. Why
(30:45):
don't you say, well, because I've I've misplaced like my
keys and things like that, and I thought, oh, maybe
when I met the person, I possibly put my keys
there and wallets and stuff like that. I'm not a
thief if we were. No, I don't think of you
as a thief at all. I think of you actually
more what happened to this guy or what happened to him?
(31:09):
Oh yes, and what happened to you even maybe a
long time ago. That just the sense that things will
be taken away from you by the people that you
trust and that you care about. The most dark parrel
cut into the bone here. You know. I don't think
of you as as evil or as it's just you're
(31:29):
going in there with you know, just a sense of
panic and a sense of excitement. Though that's thrilling to
go through someone's belongings. I'm not gonna lie. There's a
little it's erotic. It's erotic a little. Yes, um, interesting, Well, Jeff.
(31:51):
Siblings Do I have siblings? I have a brother and
a sister back in Iowa. Yes, yeah, I don't see
them as much as yes, I would like. And you
a number I am number one noh in birth yesh
birth order I'm the youngest. Yeah, and they were much
(32:14):
older than me and supposed to pick me up from school.
A lot of times. I had a walk the three
miles home, so they would forget a lot of times.
But that's just that's just the way it was. You know,
I didn't think twice about it. No, you didn't think
twice about it. But you know, we have this amazing
thing called explicit memory and implicit memory. The implicit memory
is the way that your body remembers how you had
(32:34):
to fight for everything and make sure that you don't
get left out and you don't get forgotten, and nobody
takes something that belongs to you. Well, shure, that's sometimes
what happens. That's that's what bubbles, bubbles to the surface. Well,
it bubbles in this kind of unconscious way, right, that's
(32:55):
where you suddenly go into her stuff to check if
she took the five dollars, didn't think. Thing is that
we all have these invisible forces that shaped the way
our relationships at work take place, the way we communicate,
where we deal with conflict, you know, and this is
one of those moments. How do we get rid of
these invisible forces? The first thing is you get aware
(33:16):
of them. You realize it because if you keep repeating
she but you didn't take it, you didn't take it,
you can see you are you know, then you don't
spend your time thinking about what was this about me?
I mean me and me and the coat tracks and
the bucks of other people to the flame of conflict
at the end of the day. I don't know. I
love to joust, you know, you like the flame of conflict,
(33:37):
or you like the relief that comes right after we
were prepared to take that I can't resist. So this
is what it's like. This is a this is a
slice of life. This is sys you in my office,
or you in how his work or you and where
should we begin this where you are actually for a
(34:02):
minute not going over to her, and you just say, okay,
let me think about what was going before I rum
to the purse. Take a beat. Maybe this isn't the
best decision. Maybe check my coat pocket first, yes, or
maybe ask oh, you work with so you know her,
she's right there every day with you. Ask her? Why
(34:23):
are you taking it all upon you? Can we do
some role playing here? Okay, Carolina? Can I ask you
a questions? I'm missing five dollars? Did you happen to
take it from me? No, not a question. That's not
a question. That's a statement with a question mark. That's
an accusation that's implied. A question is a question, Carolina. Sure.
(34:46):
A question means that you have to be able to
tolerate the unknown in the moment, rather than trying to
assure what you already. Have you seen five dollars lying
around anywhere? Is that better? Much better? Okay? No, I
haven't really, not anywhere, really, not anywhere, like, not in
your purse. All right, you've lost it? Go back. I'm
(35:09):
missing something. I'm worried. I'm scared. I need them. I'm
not sure what I've done. Can you help me? Carolina? Um,
I'm scared that I've lost five dollars? Can you help me?
Will gladly help you look for it? Have you been?
Shall we retrace your steps? Yeah, let's look. And I've
(35:32):
made a list of five people that I think might
have taken it, and you're near the top of the list.
You can't resist, you know, I'm just being logical. No,
you're not logical. When I look around the room, it's
the logic of fear. It's the logic that can't tolerate
thinking that you made a mistake, so you have to
blame others. It's the logic of deflection. But it's not.
(35:53):
But I don't make that many mistakes. That are you
of all oh twenty local Emmy's later, he is, does
that make sense? I would probably say to him something like,
I know you hate to make mistakes. I know that
when you lose something, it just totally throws you. And
(36:14):
if you could find the culprit right away and just
acknowledge with him and then let's retrace your step, it's
a good way of anchoring someone and just say, you know,
let's go think a moment with me before you just
like through the arrow and just stop him and anchor him.
I know you are usually upset when you're completely wrong.
(36:40):
I don't know what's going on with your brain. You're insane.
You rule my life and you drive me crazy. This
work atmosphere is suffocating. I feel like I'm underwater. How
about this that was? Look? How about this Carolina? I
seem to be missing five dollars. I don't know what
happened to you. Can I borrow five dollars until I
(37:03):
find the five dollars that I lost. I don't have
five dollars to lend you a liar. I long are
you two working together? That ain't gonna last about six years,
but it's felt like a million yes, yes, yes, can't
wit and can't without exactly Thank you, Thank you, Ebony
(37:24):
and Ivory. No, too afraid and too immature to actually
really grow up, and too afraid and too immature to
leave and to be alone. Similar to a stable genius,
very stable genius. You are that stable I am. I
came up with that phrase with the emphasis on very um.
(37:45):
I just wrote a very interesting blog about trust in
the workplace that I think I would recommend to you,
especially because of your inborn suspicion towards Caroline. Well, if
we have time, maybe is that count on your website
esra params separal dot com. It's the newsletter and the
blog and I explore every time. Right after this conversation,
(38:07):
that will have at least two stories. Not only is
it on your your website, but you were also on
Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list with imagined dragons. I
don't know if they made it and not me, Ron Burgundy,
not you, Ron Burgundy, he's a little upset. He feels
like he was snubbed from Oprah's Super Soul on hundred list.
But that's something else that you could explorence that feeling
(38:28):
of loss, lost, feeling left out, undeserving, feeling jealous. Oh
I don't I feel like I deserve um looks not
only that you deserve, you actually feel entitled, entitlement. That's
a big word that in the work like I have,
(38:48):
you deserve nice things and recognition. You said that you
didn't want to come in today like Oprah's Super Soul
one hundred list. Would you like me to put you
on my list? That does not exist yet? But if
I mean, it's not a big deal, but yes, it'd
be great. Thank you. You be on any list, any
(39:09):
list works that you feel that your matter and you exist. Okay,
Estra Parrel. Unfortunately we're out of time right now, and
I want to thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you so much. Also, I think I'm going to
call Sia to see if I can work things out.
And if I get her voicemail, should I do the
normal thing and just keep calling back again and again,
(39:29):
leaving voicemails all night long. Sia. I've been thinking, and
I think I would love for us to have a
conversation or for me to have an opportunity to speak
with you and her together, as I would like it
very much if we could meet. If we don't, I
would I would just like you to know that a
letter will be coming. Okay, and I wish you all well.
(39:54):
Sprel everyone, thank you, Thank you so much, my pleasure.
Thank you for your wisdom and your insight. And it
looks like Carolina and I have a lot of work
to do. We gotta dig deeper. We gotta dig deeper.
Um mostly on her side. It's the Ron Burgundy Podcast.
Will be right back after this. Oh gosh, his phone
(40:24):
and we're back with the Round Burgundy Podcast. Well, esther,
Perel's a genius, but I'm still single. What did you
think was going to happen in that session? Well, I
was under the impression that she would give me a
crystal or or say some spell. I don't know. But
if you noticed, my eyes were on my phone the
(40:44):
entire time and Sea did not text or call. That's true,
you checked your phone at least ten times during the interview,
but it was buzzing like crazy. It was kind of
it was kind of rude. Actually, the worst is when
you're waiting for sea to call, but it's just eight
missed calls from your uncle with dementia. Yeah, I hear that.
(41:04):
I have to move on. There just has to be
more women in the world. There are more women in
the world. There are billions, and I have to stop
watching Gilmore Girls. I thought you finished all the seasons.
I started watching them all over again. Yeah, so I've
got to stop, that is what I mean. I've started
going to gyms and paying them to change all the
TVs to the Gilmore Girls just so I can watch
(41:26):
Gilmore Girls on twenty TVs at once. What why? It's
just comforting you're going through a pop star breakup. I
don't know if it helps with everything, but if Cia
or Adele breaks up with you, then Gilmore Girls is
streaming on Netflix. I feel good withinding our episode with
a plug for Gilmore Girls show that has been off
(41:48):
the air for over a decade. Oh and if you
can catch Rocketman just in time for Awards season. Who knows?
Did I just sweep? This is Ron Burgundy on the
Ron Burgundy Podcast. The Ron Burgundy Podcast is a production
(42:11):
of I Heart Radio. I'm Ron Burgundy, the host, writer
and executive producer. Carolina Barlow is my co host, writer
and producer. Our producer is Nick Stump. Our talent coordinator
is Anna Hostian writers are Andrew Steele and Jake vogel Nest.
This episode was engineered, mixed, and edited by Nick Stunt.
(42:33):
Until next time, this is Ron Burgundy
Host
Will Ferrell
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