June 8, 2020 • 30 mins
In episode 15 of the Shack Show, golf architect Gil Hanse joins Geoff Shackelford to prep us for the Charles Schwab Challenge at Colonial Country Club. Gil talks about Hogan's influence at Colonial, what he'll be watching for this week and his top-10 golf courses.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio. Today.
On The Shack Show, the PGA Tour is back and
we're gonna talk Colonial with Gill hands Well. A lot
of the focus this week is the tour returns to
(00:22):
action at Fort Worth at Colonial will be on the players,
their safety, how it all works, no crowds, how television
manages what is going to be a very complicated task.
We heard all about today on a conference call with CBS,
and it is, uh, needless to say, a very difficult
task they are attempting to undertake and make entertaining for us.
(00:46):
But most golf fans are just happy to watch them
golf but probably forgotten all This will be Colonial Country Club,
the historic annual stop on the PGA Tour now known
as the Charles Schwab Challenge, and to discuss Colonial. I
managed after a lot of wrangling with his extensive publicity
team to secure architect Gill Hans, who has been hired
(01:09):
by the club to commission a master plan. Of course,
if you know much about golf, you know he is
the architect of several world class courses since he began
his firm in places like Castle Stewart, which hosted several
Scottish opens, Boston Golf Club, a Whoopie Match Clubs, Dreams
On Black Massio, Resta, Kenya, which I had the privilege
of working with him on, and of course, most famously,
(01:31):
the Olympic Course in Rio. Then there are the renovations,
the overhaul Pineer's Number four, Drows, Blue Monster, They're the
part three courses, the Prairie Club's Horse Course, which I
also got to work with Gil and Jim Wagner on,
and maybe most beloved of maybe any course Gills designed
based on the feedback I hear the cradle at Pinehurst
(01:54):
and it does look like a blast. But it's his
restoration resume that is just truly astounding, And it's even
more astounding when you think of how many crazy members
suggestions he must have listened to over the years. But
just listen to these names. These are just some of
the places that Gil has done restoration work at Plainfield, Ridgewood,
(02:15):
the Creek, Fishers Island, Sleepy Hollow, West Hampton, pal Meadow,
Tokyo Golf Club, Maryon, the Country Club, Wingfoot and Los
Angeles Country Clubs North Course, where they will be hosting
the three U S Open and another project I worked
with Gill on. Now he's going forward with more of
this incredible restoration work and undertaking two big ones and
American classic brand names Baltis Rowland Oakland Hills, which let's
(02:38):
just be honest, have fallen out of favor a little bit,
and I think a restoration will be very exciting at
both of those places. Uh. And of course he is
continuing work on the new course in Frisco, Texas for
the PJ of America, and nearby Frisco is of course
Colonial Country Club, the historic place that was generally considered
(03:00):
one of America's great courses for a very long time,
Hogan's alley been Hogan won five colonials. There a place
we've gotten to know on television, but has fallen to
at f and the Golf Digest ranking. Not that the
panelists always get it right, but something has occurred. There's
been a lot of changes over the years. There was
a flood in nine. So I wanted to talk to
(03:21):
Gil about Colonial, what he's learned in researching the history
of the course, how it could be better, what we
should be watching for this week when the PGA Tour
returns to action in Fort Worth at Colonial. Here's my
chat with Gil Hans. So, Gil, where are you today
and what'd you work on today? Um? I am at
(03:41):
Baltic Or Golf Club, Springfield, New Jersey. We're rebuilding while
we're restoring the golf course. So I was working today
with Kevin Murphy and Jeff Stein on the tenth Green,
getting all the expansions done on it and getting it
all ready, and they're actually we're scanning it just a
little bit of ghosts that we've got our blueprint for
(04:02):
when they dig it up and core it out and
put in all the fancy stuff underneath it, they'll they
know what to put back very nice. Now. Um, this
week the tour is moving to our returning to golf
and it's showing up at Colonial where it has annually
for a very long time. And I was hoping you
(04:23):
could kind of help us better understand a course that
we've gotten used to sing on TV and but we
we know there's some some changes over the years. And
they had a project in two thousand and eight that
Keith Foster worked on. So can you just give us
a little background on on why you were hired and
how that happened? And then we'll talk a little bit
(04:44):
about the course. Sure, we were approached about four or
five years ago to talk to the club about moving forward.
I think, um, they had mutually decided to part ways
with with Keith Foster and he I think he was
completely fine with that, And Um, it was really to
look at how could we historically figure out what happened
(05:08):
at Colonial and how it evolved to the point where
it is now. And in so doing it it was
it's quite a it's a long history and there's many
many characters who were involved in it, which is you know,
most people think it's a Perry Maxwell golf course, but
he had his hands in it in um preparation for
the ninety one U S Open, and but it was
(05:31):
John breed Amiss before him, and then it was Maxwell,
and then it was Ralph Plumber, and then Dick Wilson
and Ben Hogan worked on it together. Then I think
Floyd Farley had had a hand in it, um, And
I think that there were a few other people, maybe
Robert Trent, Joe Sr. And and eventually to Keith Foster.
(05:53):
So I think, um, we're like number eight or nine
on the list of golf course architects who who been
involved there, and so really what we tried to do
is just piece together how everything evolved over over time.
And I think Maxwell's contributions were significant, and but they've
they've they're gone for the most part. I mean, he
(06:15):
he routed Holds three, four, and five the Horrible Horseshoe,
which you know, are just an amazing set of golf
holes and very very difficult and really the key part
of the golf course. But a lot of the feature
work that he did in the greens that he constructed
were rebuilt over a period of time, some of them
several times, and um, you know, a lot of them
(06:37):
were much lower to the ground, really very very lay
of the land architecture, and so I think trying to
figure all that out. And then then in the nineties sixties,
you had, you know, a flood control program that was
put in place to harness the Trinity River, and they
lost two of the most spectacular holes on the property
(06:58):
of both Part three's number eat, which had they're played
with the river kind of cutting across and along the
right hand side, and then number thirteen were an arm
of the river kind of boat around and went in
front of the green. So those holes were lost and
and moved inland, and the channel the Trinity River was
(07:21):
sort of straightened out, and then a lot of other
flood control measures on the back nine primarily. So it's
it's it's it's had a lot of nips and tucks,
and and our hope is that we can decipher um
how all of it came together, try to let the
membership know or understand that a little bit better, and
then put together a plan that will hopefully return a
(07:45):
lot of the real character of the golf course. Is
there a sense, like a lot of the places that
you have done restoration work at that that it's missing something,
that there there was a point, a high point for
the course, and that there's a certain time that you'd
like to kind of aim for trying to get back.
If people all agree that was a good time, Yeah,
(08:08):
I think everything focuses around that us open um. I
had the great good fortune to sit down with Marty Leonard,
who's the daughter of Marvin Leonard, the founder of Colonial
and and Dan Jenkins, uh the late great Dan Jenkins,
and to just listen to the two of them talk
about the golf course and talk about you know, it's
(08:29):
it's very similar to to the work that we've done
together at Los Angeles Country Club, where there was just
this rustic, beautiful patina that has evolved into a much
more polished and refined look to it. And it was
scruffy and a little bit ragged, and there were some
dry washes that weave their way through the property, and
the greens sat much lower to the ground. As I mentioned,
(08:53):
Dan Jenkins said, it was a dark golf course. And
what do you mean by that? He said, it was
you there were trees all over the place and you
were hitting into what felt like tunnels, and the greens
sat down on the ground, so it you know, the
trees really felt like they were overhanging everything because the
features were much lower profile. And it it was just
a great, great lunch and a great you know, I
(09:17):
had never spent much time around him, and and you know,
obviously you know him well or knew him well, and
you know what character he was and some of the
descriptions he had of the golf course. So I think
when you look at the photos and the character and
the scale from those early years. Golf course was built
during the depression, so you know, it was very young
(09:38):
when it hosted the US open Um. That's sort of
I think that's the heyday, and I think that's the
look and feel we we'd really like to to restore
to the property. Did he give you much of a
sense of Hogan's view of the place, because because he
and I used to discuss it just drove him nuts
that Hogan referred to Riviera before the flood. He would
(09:58):
always tell him Riviera before the flood was one of
his top five courses. And so even though after I've
explained to Dan what happened with the flood, He's just
refused to He refused to believe because he Hogan couldn't
have played the course before the flood. And I've then
tried to say, well, Dan, somebody might have explained how
it used to play. And those holes bother him, and
he understood why those holes were better at one time.
(10:20):
We didn't. We didn't get We never resolved that argument,
but I was grateful that he always he always brought
it up. It Uh, it bugged him. But but with
Colonial did he did you go into that at all,
because obviously Hogan is such a big part of their
their history. We did, and and he and he did
play it before the flood, before the big Yeah they
had a flood too, so yeah, yeah, so he he
(10:42):
did know it well. And he and Dan said that,
you know that Hogan was he was just locked in
at that golf course. He knew every every blade of grass.
He played there a lot. He was then as as
as I mentioned, I think involved in some of the
architectural changes with Dick Wilson. I think ultimately there seemed
to have been and and Marty Leonard concurred that there
(11:04):
was some sort of falling out between him and Marvin
Leonar which made him go over to Shady and found that.
And so it was. But now he had great success
there and he had a great respect for the golf course,
and you know that we talked about, you know, shotmaker's
golf course, and you know, maybe that's a little bit
trite in this day and age, but you know, with
(11:24):
him obviously the ultimate shotmaker and the ability to do
whatever he wanted with a golf ball. Um, he loved
the precise nature of Colonial the fact that it was
tree line and you had to Yeah, they had quality
shots to get your ball around that golf course. And
that still is still is the case today on it
on a golf course that's considered short for for today's tour.
(11:46):
And you know, generally, the thing that that strikes you
when you when you get there, as you look at
that wall of champions and so many good players on
that wall. I mean, it would be something that any
place would be really proud to show off. We're going
to take a quick break on the shack at show,
but I'm curious. You just made me think about something
(12:07):
regarding golf architecture and great winners, and I want to
ask you about that when we come back. All right,
we're back. So do you do you buy that notion
that that great architecture produces great champions in general? I?
(12:28):
I do. I think that UM. I think that there's
a certain level of golfer that rises to the occasion,
to the test at hand, and great golf courses I
think tend to provide that. I mean, obviously that you're
going to have guys that just get hot for a week,
but I think over the course of time, UM courses
(12:48):
that have hosted multiple multiple championships generally the great ones
have a really strong UM winners board on it, and
I think that that's really important I know that's something
that you've Wagner and I talk a lot about, is
that you know, people always so are you you know, what,
what do you want the winning score to be if
if you know, it's on a golf course that we've designed.
(13:08):
I was like, really, don't care. We just we'd love
to have a great winner. You know, if you if
you get a really good winner on your on your
golf course, then I think that's somehow validates the quality
of the course, the architecture, et cetera. And I think
in the Olympics, Dana Rio, we had you know, both
on the men and the women's side, just great great winners,
(13:28):
great medalists, everything about And I think that that that's
something that Jim and I really get are proud of
if if we can get great winners on on our courses.
So not that we're building great courses, but I think
it's it's just it's, you know, to get to that
sort of level of Hey, if if if the guys
that win there are good, I think that that does validate.
(13:50):
I mean, working here at Baltic's role had one of
the most fun um you know things, working on the
eighteen fairway and you know, running a bulldozer around Nicholas plaque,
sitting in the middle of the fairway and trying not
to hit it and making sure that we took great
care getting it out of the ground. And you know,
when you see the plaques here and you see the
winners that you know, obviously Nicholas winning here twice, it's
(14:12):
you know, that helps to help certainly to validate the architecture.
In my opinion, since you've been doing this, have you
seen a shift, because I know when you started and
and I started getting interested in architecture, so much was
a centered around scoring and evaluating a tournament and a
course based on the scoring. Have you seen a shift
(14:36):
in people being less obsessed with that idea? Ours is
still there. I think it's still there for members that
at clubs that host tournaments, they don't want the perception
that their golf courses is easy. But the reality is
that the players today and the way they play the
(14:58):
game of golf. Uh. You know, we're right now talking
about a new normal, obviously with the pandemic and with
what's going on in our country. Um, but I think
the reality of the new normal for golf is that
major championships are going to be one with double digit underpar.
That's just got to be you know, throwing out whether
it's U S Open, the Open Championship, the Masters, well
(15:21):
you know, p g A, that's just going to be
the new standard. Um. You know, the level of of
golf that's being played, the distance they're hitting it, the
um the level of maintenance that's being presented to these players.
I mean, unless they get something out of the ordinary weatherwise. Um.
You know, I think that that standard is just going
(15:42):
to have to be applied. And it it doesn't or shouldn't,
in any way shape or form, diminish people's perception of
the quality of a golf course. UM. I remember back
to when we when we redid du ral and and
and JB Homes when I was shot sixty two, and
you know, people some people are very upset. I wonder
(16:02):
about that. Yeah, exactly. Um. But Johnny Miller on the broadcast,
that's something that you know, I'll never forget. He said, Listen,
great golf courses yield great scores when players are playing
at an extremely high level. If a guy is playing
it or a woman's playing at such a high level,
and the golf course still won't yield a good score,
(16:25):
then there's probably something wrong with the golf course. Um.
And so I think that, you know, that's it's just
there's always going to be this ego. There's always gonna
be this pride of people at their clubs or their
facilities wanting to their golf course to appear to be
a good enough test um for these guys. But unless
you get wind and dry, firm conditions, they're going to
(16:47):
shoot good scores because they're just that good. And I
think that we just have to apply that new normal,
that new standard to what winning scores are going to be.
I've had success in arguing that with people that it
to to focus on the disparity or the spray out
of the scores to get them off of obsessing about
that that low number and then seeing if if, of
course indeed kind of spread out the field and and
(17:09):
we did people out that that actually is a greater
statement about that it rewarded good play, but it also
kind of beat somebody up who was not on their game. Yeah,
I agree. I think you were looking at like when
Rory won a congressional or um, you know, Gary Woodland
at at Pebble Beach, Um, you know it was he
(17:30):
was the only one I think double digits under parts
of people might look at that and go, okay one
the US Open. Well, actually he played really great golf,
and it was it was you know, three other guys
that were anywhere close. And you're right, I think that
that's the case. Whereas you you know, um, Aaron Hills,
where there were just a hundred guys or a lot
(17:51):
of non hundred, but a lot of guys under part.
It was just it was a different type of tournament.
So I think you're right in that sort of Um,
the spread in the score. If somebody plays exceptional golf,
the golf course should yield the score to that. Yeah.
So you are in the midst of doing presenting this
master plan to the members. Um, the tour will be
(18:12):
back this week. You will not be able to be there,
but tell us a little bit about what you'll either
look for when you're you're maybe watching the replay on
Golf Channel in the evening or on the weekend and relaxing,
or or afterwards, when maybe Steve Win's Law will provide
you with shot linked at. What are the things that
you're you're watching for colonial this week? It's a golf
(18:36):
course that most players there will only gonna be a
few holes where they're going to hit driver, So it's
mainly it's mainly gonna be fairway medals and even driving
irons off of the tea. So I think it'll be
interesting to watch how you know, the longer hitters navigate
their way around the golf course itself. Um. You know,
part of a big part of this master plan that
(18:58):
that we're hopeful to present this fall is going to
be you know, an agronomic piece which I know you're
very familiar with, and these clubs sort of upgrading, um
their ability to grow grass and tough growing conditions. So um,
Scott Eber's, the golf course superintendent, does a great job
down there, but trying to grow ben grass and you
know night, you know, this time of year, in particular,
(19:20):
a couple of weeks after when they normally have the tournament.
I'm hopeful that you know, the golf course conditioning will
will hold up because that's a lot of what we're
talking about. You know, growing ben grass in Texas is
not this is not easy. In their tools that that
can help that. So I think we be looking at
the conditioning of the golf course and and how hopefully
(19:40):
what we're proposing will will help that long term, and
then you know, putting. Um. The one thing about Colonial
that's interesting is that now that the greens are up,
most of them are set up above the grade, and
you know, with deeper bunkers and around them, is the
the approach play. I think, Um, I'm always curious to
(20:02):
see how many guys hit greens when they're perched up
like that, and especially since we're talking about lowering a
lot of them and putting them for it, closer to
the ground, So I'll be kind of curious to watch
the approach play into them. And then, like you and
like everybody else who listens to this, I'm just happy
to have golf back. It's gonna be it's gonna be
fun to watch, it's gonna be different, it's gonna be interesting.
(20:23):
But I think it's um, you know, for all of us,
it's gonna be a wonderful distraction to have some you know,
have meaningful live sports again. Yeah, I'm interesting. I listened
to the call today with Sean McManus and Jim Nance
and Nick Fowlo. They're gonna have a drone. They think
they're they're fine tuning it, but they're probably gonna have
a drone out there because there are no people, so
they're gonna mimic Fox a little bit. On the live drops.
(20:44):
You may get some different views of Colonial just quickly.
The bent grass thing, is that um sort of a
part of the history. Marvin Leonard was big on bent grass.
I I read somewhere is that part of the reason
of sticking with it. Yep, that's absolutely correct, was his
his legacy and obviously as the founder of the club,
the club you know, takes it very importantly that you know,
(21:06):
his contributions to the place and his legacy. I think
they felt very strongly given the opportunities that present themselves now,
you know, with with hydraulics and with the ability to
work with soil temperatures and obviously new greens, mikes, etcetera, etcetera,
I think we'll give them a really good chance to
have finally conditioned turf, you know, even during the height
(21:29):
of the summer. And one last Colonial question, is there
any ability to you mentioned seeing where they're going to
be approaching from all that kind of stuff, is there
any ability to get driver in their hands a little
bit more to bring back some of the things that
that Hogan loved about it. In that sense, there's a
few spots where we're going to be able to lengthen
(21:50):
a couple holes, but there's it's pretty well maxed out.
So um. You know, there are a few things that
were done in the most recent UM innovation to the
golf course that I think I tried to tighten up
the landing zones and and they're you know, adding some
bumkers that were not part of the original design. We're
proposing to take some of those out so that you know,
(22:12):
the penalty is much more just the rough and the trees, um.
And so maybe that'll allow golfers, you know, the tour
players to feel a little bit freer off the team.
Maybe take driver, Okay, one more break and then I
have a little bit of a bone to pick with
Gil about something that had just popped up on the internet.
We'll be right back on the Shack Show, all right, gil.
(22:40):
So Golf magazine h slash golf dot com posted something
online yesterday, your top ten I assume this was it
was written in January, and your beautiful handwriting your top
ten courses in the world and it's a was this
part of their ranking? Is that why they asked you
(23:02):
that I your panelists there? I believe yeah, I'm a panelist,
and I think they just said they it's different part
part of the sorry, different parts of the year. They're
just gonna ask some different panelists to throw out their
top ten. And uh, first question by Ran Morrissett was
are you willing to do this? I thought, well, yeah,
I mean, I don't think I'm gonna make ame by
(23:23):
mad but apparently I've upset you. So upset. Not upset,
I just I just have a question. Well, it's a
fantastic list. It starts what I love, of course, that
you did, which I think is the perfect way to
do this. You start with number one the old Course,
number two National, and then you draw a line and
the rest are just alphabetical. But those two are on
another level, another plane there, at least us in who
(23:45):
studyed golf architecture. They're the kind of the the ultimate cathedral.
So then you got you have a Chicago golf club,
l a country club. This is an alphabetical order. Marion, Merefield,
Pine Valley, Royal County Down Royal, Melbourne West all amazing courses,
all places that people should drop everything they're doing if
(24:06):
they get the chance to play if they're not a member,
But uh, can you guess which one? Kind of surprised
me a little bit just knowing your style of design.
And by the way, very nice that you didn't mention
one of your own courses like that really confirmed you're
not a member of the Jones family. But anyone on
the list you think that, I'm cypress cypress point, Yes,
(24:28):
I'm sorry, yes, okay, I was like, wait a second,
skipped over that. Sorry, that's right before Chicago Golf Club,
which one you wouldn't like and I wouldn't like. I
just wonder why of all the places in that region
would you pick that one field? Desolutely? Yeah, that was
just that was one of so I played there recently
(24:51):
and I just I don't know, there was something about
it that I just I've forgotten and remember just how
you know, it's not dramatic, it's certainly not the most
dramatical links out there, but the bunkering is such and
I think it's it's um you know what old Tom Morris,
old water media, Um, you know, just the I love
(25:11):
the feel of that place. There's just something about it
that it's it's magical to me. Yeah, and I mean,
and trust me, I know where would I rather play?
Probably North Barrack, which is just down the road. That's yeah.
But but you know it's that whole sort of um,
(25:32):
you know, argument that you don't not argument, but discussion
that that we have is all right. I understand that
Shinnecock Hills is a probably a quote unquote better test
of golf, but I'd rather play it national. I understand that,
you know, I think Merfold is probably the better test
of golf. Um, but I probably I'd rather play it
North Barrack. But I also was thinking, all right, how
(25:54):
do we stack? Yeah, well it is I mean I
would have put I put Dornick. There's several others I
put out. So what which ones would you throw out?
North Well, north Barrick. Oh, that's the only one I
throw off, and it's it's fantastic and in fact, well
we'll get to but another argument about it. But I mean,
I I don't know if you've seen term very since
(26:14):
Martin Ebert redid it, but I put that ahead of
a Carnoustie. I really kind of fell in love with
again seeing it at the Open, I had forgotten some
things I forgot. I don't know if I want to
play it every day, I'd rather go to pam Mere,
but cruden Bay. I love Prestwick. I've just come to
really love um but dorn Dornick and north bericare the
(26:34):
two that I feel like or more you But that
was just my my reaction. But the Part three's in
mirr Field, I think you and I discuessed that the
set at Los Angeles Country Club is as good as
set apart three's on the planet, and I think people
will see that when they have the US Open. But
Mirror Fields are are pretty incredible. UM and I you
(26:59):
would you would get a kick out of this. UM.
I was doing a Golf World preview story on mere
Field before Open, and I was at uh the Memorial
and Jack Nicholas does this great session where he just
kind of everybody gathers around him and people just sort
of throw out things that they're working on for various tournaments.
(27:21):
And I was doing a story on how all the
Part three's are uphill at at Merefield and you love
uphill Part three's, I know, and most of the best
part threes in the world are either flat or uphill.
And so I threw it out at him, I said, uh,
doing this story and and uh he immediately shot it down. No,
(27:41):
they're not, No, they're not. And then he paused, he went, okay,
well let's go number four and then he and he
proceeded to go through them, and all these writers are
sitting there, of course, just going who cares about? But
then as he kept going through it, and he he
he had to admit, okay, well, yeah, they all kind
a little bit up. And then some writer chimed in
(28:03):
from the local paper with a question went no, no, no, no,
I'm not done yet. All the writers that really perked up,
and he proceeded to just kind of go through them
and what he loved about h those holes and but
why he likes a little more visibility at his part
three's And then of course, classic Jack at the end,
he goes, did did you get what you need? And
you're like, you just went for five minutes on it
(28:25):
on part threes? Of course, yes you you did. Uh,
you did very well, thank you, Mr Nicholas. So um,
but they are a great set of part threees there,
they really are. Yeah, So all right, Well, that that
was all. I just wanted to to get some claret
on that and uh, very important first world matter here.
So of course, thank you so much for for kind
of prepping us. I mean, we're all, like you said,
(28:46):
we're all excited about the watching some golf again. But
I think it's of course that that we all have
kind of scratched our head at television doesn't do certain
things justice. And also sort of knowing it's it's history
will be interesting to see. I hope you get to
do a lot of things that bring back a little
more of that charm. Well, I hope so as well.
(29:06):
We're really excited about it. I think, you know, we're
looking forward to get in front of the members and
hopefully get them excited about it as well. And you know,
it isn't lost on me. And I think it's kind
of cool that, you know, aside from Riviera colonials, probably
the most you have the longest term uh course on tour,
and it's got obviously a tremendous tournament history, and so
(29:27):
it's kind of cool that they're they're going back, they're
starting off at one of these great old course. Is
that we're all familiar with that. We all have memories
of watching on TV, and I think that that's a
that's a great way to get the tour back. And
obviously they've got a phenomenal field, so I think I'm
sure the folks that in Fort Worth the Colonial are
really excited about that. Yeah. Absolutely, all right, Well, thank
(29:50):
you so much, Gil, You're welcome. Jeff always always get
talking to you. All right, thanks again to Gil Hants
for appearing here on The Shack Show and sharing some
of his insights into Colonial. It should be a fun week.
We will cover it, we will analyze it on Jeff
Shackle for dot com. We it's me um And of course,
if you have any feedback about the show, don't hesitate
(30:12):
to contact me there or write a nice review on
iTunes is always a good thing, or just give it
a nice rating there that seems to just still matter,
or just listen to it on the I Heart Radio app.
And by the way, the Shock Show, just so you know,
is produced by Tim Protka and is a production of
my Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart, visit
the irt radio app, Apple Podcasts, or listen wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. So until next time, please
(30:35):
be safe and thank you for listening, and I will
be back soon
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio. Today.
On The Shack Show, the PGA Tour is back and
we're gonna talk Colonial with Gill hands Well. A lot
of the focus this week is the tour returns to
(00:22):
action at Fort Worth at Colonial will be on the players,
their safety, how it all works, no crowds, how television
manages what is going to be a very complicated task.
We heard all about today on a conference call with CBS,
and it is, uh, needless to say, a very difficult
task they are attempting to undertake and make entertaining for us.
(00:46):
But most golf fans are just happy to watch them
golf but probably forgotten all This will be Colonial Country Club,
the historic annual stop on the PGA Tour now known
as the Charles Schwab Challenge, and to discuss Colonial. I
managed after a lot of wrangling with his extensive publicity
team to secure architect Gill Hans, who has been hired
(01:09):
by the club to commission a master plan. Of course,
if you know much about golf, you know he is
the architect of several world class courses since he began
his firm in places like Castle Stewart, which hosted several
Scottish opens, Boston Golf Club, a Whoopie Match Clubs, Dreams
On Black Massio, Resta, Kenya, which I had the privilege
of working with him on, and of course, most famously,
(01:31):
the Olympic Course in Rio. Then there are the renovations,
the overhaul Pineer's Number four, Drows, Blue Monster, They're the
part three courses, the Prairie Club's Horse Course, which I
also got to work with Gil and Jim Wagner on,
and maybe most beloved of maybe any course Gills designed
based on the feedback I hear the cradle at Pinehurst
(01:54):
and it does look like a blast. But it's his
restoration resume that is just truly astounding, And it's even
more astounding when you think of how many crazy members
suggestions he must have listened to over the years. But
just listen to these names. These are just some of
the places that Gil has done restoration work at Plainfield, Ridgewood,
(02:15):
the Creek, Fishers Island, Sleepy Hollow, West Hampton, pal Meadow,
Tokyo Golf Club, Maryon, the Country Club, Wingfoot and Los
Angeles Country Clubs North Course, where they will be hosting
the three U S Open and another project I worked
with Gill on. Now he's going forward with more of
this incredible restoration work and undertaking two big ones and
American classic brand names Baltis Rowland Oakland Hills, which let's
(02:38):
just be honest, have fallen out of favor a little bit,
and I think a restoration will be very exciting at
both of those places. Uh. And of course he is
continuing work on the new course in Frisco, Texas for
the PJ of America, and nearby Frisco is of course
Colonial Country Club, the historic place that was generally considered
(03:00):
one of America's great courses for a very long time,
Hogan's alley been Hogan won five colonials. There a place
we've gotten to know on television, but has fallen to
at f and the Golf Digest ranking. Not that the
panelists always get it right, but something has occurred. There's
been a lot of changes over the years. There was
a flood in nine. So I wanted to talk to
(03:21):
Gil about Colonial, what he's learned in researching the history
of the course, how it could be better, what we
should be watching for this week when the PGA Tour
returns to action in Fort Worth at Colonial. Here's my
chat with Gil Hans. So, Gil, where are you today
and what'd you work on today? Um? I am at
(03:41):
Baltic Or Golf Club, Springfield, New Jersey. We're rebuilding while
we're restoring the golf course. So I was working today
with Kevin Murphy and Jeff Stein on the tenth Green,
getting all the expansions done on it and getting it
all ready, and they're actually we're scanning it just a
little bit of ghosts that we've got our blueprint for
(04:02):
when they dig it up and core it out and
put in all the fancy stuff underneath it, they'll they
know what to put back very nice. Now. Um, this
week the tour is moving to our returning to golf
and it's showing up at Colonial where it has annually
for a very long time. And I was hoping you
(04:23):
could kind of help us better understand a course that
we've gotten used to sing on TV and but we
we know there's some some changes over the years. And
they had a project in two thousand and eight that
Keith Foster worked on. So can you just give us
a little background on on why you were hired and
how that happened? And then we'll talk a little bit
(04:44):
about the course. Sure, we were approached about four or
five years ago to talk to the club about moving forward.
I think, um, they had mutually decided to part ways
with with Keith Foster and he I think he was
completely fine with that, And Um, it was really to
look at how could we historically figure out what happened
(05:08):
at Colonial and how it evolved to the point where
it is now. And in so doing it it was
it's quite a it's a long history and there's many
many characters who were involved in it, which is you know,
most people think it's a Perry Maxwell golf course, but
he had his hands in it in um preparation for
the ninety one U S Open, and but it was
(05:31):
John breed Amiss before him, and then it was Maxwell,
and then it was Ralph Plumber, and then Dick Wilson
and Ben Hogan worked on it together. Then I think
Floyd Farley had had a hand in it, um, And
I think that there were a few other people, maybe
Robert Trent, Joe Sr. And and eventually to Keith Foster.
(05:53):
So I think, um, we're like number eight or nine
on the list of golf course architects who who been
involved there, and so really what we tried to do
is just piece together how everything evolved over over time.
And I think Maxwell's contributions were significant, and but they've
they've they're gone for the most part. I mean, he
(06:15):
he routed Holds three, four, and five the Horrible Horseshoe,
which you know, are just an amazing set of golf
holes and very very difficult and really the key part
of the golf course. But a lot of the feature
work that he did in the greens that he constructed
were rebuilt over a period of time, some of them
several times, and um, you know, a lot of them
(06:37):
were much lower to the ground, really very very lay
of the land architecture, and so I think trying to
figure all that out. And then then in the nineties sixties,
you had, you know, a flood control program that was
put in place to harness the Trinity River, and they
lost two of the most spectacular holes on the property
(06:58):
of both Part three's number eat, which had they're played
with the river kind of cutting across and along the
right hand side, and then number thirteen were an arm
of the river kind of boat around and went in
front of the green. So those holes were lost and
and moved inland, and the channel the Trinity River was
(07:21):
sort of straightened out, and then a lot of other
flood control measures on the back nine primarily. So it's
it's it's it's had a lot of nips and tucks,
and and our hope is that we can decipher um
how all of it came together, try to let the
membership know or understand that a little bit better, and
then put together a plan that will hopefully return a
(07:45):
lot of the real character of the golf course. Is
there a sense, like a lot of the places that
you have done restoration work at that that it's missing something,
that there there was a point, a high point for
the course, and that there's a certain time that you'd
like to kind of aim for trying to get back.
If people all agree that was a good time, Yeah,
(08:08):
I think everything focuses around that us open um. I
had the great good fortune to sit down with Marty Leonard,
who's the daughter of Marvin Leonard, the founder of Colonial
and and Dan Jenkins, uh the late great Dan Jenkins,
and to just listen to the two of them talk
about the golf course and talk about you know, it's
(08:29):
it's very similar to to the work that we've done
together at Los Angeles Country Club, where there was just
this rustic, beautiful patina that has evolved into a much
more polished and refined look to it. And it was
scruffy and a little bit ragged, and there were some
dry washes that weave their way through the property, and
the greens sat much lower to the ground. As I mentioned,
(08:53):
Dan Jenkins said, it was a dark golf course. And
what do you mean by that? He said, it was
you there were trees all over the place and you
were hitting into what felt like tunnels, and the greens
sat down on the ground, so it you know, the
trees really felt like they were overhanging everything because the
features were much lower profile. And it it was just
a great, great lunch and a great you know, I
(09:17):
had never spent much time around him, and and you know,
obviously you know him well or knew him well, and
you know what character he was and some of the
descriptions he had of the golf course. So I think
when you look at the photos and the character and
the scale from those early years. Golf course was built
during the depression, so you know, it was very young
(09:38):
when it hosted the US open Um. That's sort of
I think that's the heyday, and I think that's the
look and feel we we'd really like to to restore
to the property. Did he give you much of a
sense of Hogan's view of the place, because because he
and I used to discuss it just drove him nuts
that Hogan referred to Riviera before the flood. He would
(09:58):
always tell him Riviera before the flood was one of
his top five courses. And so even though after I've
explained to Dan what happened with the flood, He's just
refused to He refused to believe because he Hogan couldn't
have played the course before the flood. And I've then
tried to say, well, Dan, somebody might have explained how
it used to play. And those holes bother him, and
he understood why those holes were better at one time.
(10:20):
We didn't. We didn't get We never resolved that argument,
but I was grateful that he always he always brought
it up. It Uh, it bugged him. But but with
Colonial did he did you go into that at all,
because obviously Hogan is such a big part of their
their history. We did, and and he and he did
play it before the flood, before the big Yeah they
had a flood too, so yeah, yeah, so he he
(10:42):
did know it well. And he and Dan said that,
you know that Hogan was he was just locked in
at that golf course. He knew every every blade of grass.
He played there a lot. He was then as as
as I mentioned, I think involved in some of the
architectural changes with Dick Wilson. I think ultimately there seemed
to have been and and Marty Leonard concurred that there
(11:04):
was some sort of falling out between him and Marvin
Leonar which made him go over to Shady and found that.
And so it was. But now he had great success
there and he had a great respect for the golf course,
and you know that we talked about, you know, shotmaker's
golf course, and you know, maybe that's a little bit
trite in this day and age, but you know, with
(11:24):
him obviously the ultimate shotmaker and the ability to do
whatever he wanted with a golf ball. Um, he loved
the precise nature of Colonial the fact that it was
tree line and you had to Yeah, they had quality
shots to get your ball around that golf course. And
that still is still is the case today on it
on a golf course that's considered short for for today's tour.
(11:46):
And you know, generally, the thing that that strikes you
when you when you get there, as you look at
that wall of champions and so many good players on
that wall. I mean, it would be something that any
place would be really proud to show off. We're going
to take a quick break on the shack at show,
but I'm curious. You just made me think about something
(12:07):
regarding golf architecture and great winners, and I want to
ask you about that when we come back. All right,
we're back. So do you do you buy that notion
that that great architecture produces great champions in general? I?
(12:28):
I do. I think that UM. I think that there's
a certain level of golfer that rises to the occasion,
to the test at hand, and great golf courses I
think tend to provide that. I mean, obviously that you're
going to have guys that just get hot for a week,
but I think over the course of time, UM courses
(12:48):
that have hosted multiple multiple championships generally the great ones
have a really strong UM winners board on it, and
I think that that's really important I know that's something
that you've Wagner and I talk a lot about, is
that you know, people always so are you you know, what,
what do you want the winning score to be if
if you know, it's on a golf course that we've designed.
(13:08):
I was like, really, don't care. We just we'd love
to have a great winner. You know, if you if
you get a really good winner on your on your
golf course, then I think that's somehow validates the quality
of the course, the architecture, et cetera. And I think
in the Olympics, Dana Rio, we had you know, both
on the men and the women's side, just great great winners,
(13:28):
great medalists, everything about And I think that that that's
something that Jim and I really get are proud of
if if we can get great winners on on our courses.
So not that we're building great courses, but I think
it's it's just it's, you know, to get to that
sort of level of Hey, if if if the guys
that win there are good, I think that that does validate.
(13:50):
I mean, working here at Baltic's role had one of
the most fun um you know things, working on the
eighteen fairway and you know, running a bulldozer around Nicholas plaque,
sitting in the middle of the fairway and trying not
to hit it and making sure that we took great
care getting it out of the ground. And you know,
when you see the plaques here and you see the
winners that you know, obviously Nicholas winning here twice, it's
(14:12):
you know, that helps to help certainly to validate the architecture.
In my opinion, since you've been doing this, have you
seen a shift, because I know when you started and
and I started getting interested in architecture, so much was
a centered around scoring and evaluating a tournament and a
course based on the scoring. Have you seen a shift
(14:36):
in people being less obsessed with that idea? Ours is
still there. I think it's still there for members that
at clubs that host tournaments, they don't want the perception
that their golf courses is easy. But the reality is
that the players today and the way they play the
(14:58):
game of golf. Uh. You know, we're right now talking
about a new normal, obviously with the pandemic and with
what's going on in our country. Um, but I think
the reality of the new normal for golf is that
major championships are going to be one with double digit underpar.
That's just got to be you know, throwing out whether
it's U S Open, the Open Championship, the Masters, well
(15:21):
you know, p g A, that's just going to be
the new standard. Um. You know, the level of of
golf that's being played, the distance they're hitting it, the
um the level of maintenance that's being presented to these players.
I mean, unless they get something out of the ordinary weatherwise. Um.
You know, I think that that standard is just going
(15:42):
to have to be applied. And it it doesn't or shouldn't,
in any way shape or form, diminish people's perception of
the quality of a golf course. UM. I remember back
to when we when we redid du ral and and
and JB Homes when I was shot sixty two, and
you know, people some people are very upset. I wonder
(16:02):
about that. Yeah, exactly. Um. But Johnny Miller on the broadcast,
that's something that you know, I'll never forget. He said, Listen,
great golf courses yield great scores when players are playing
at an extremely high level. If a guy is playing
it or a woman's playing at such a high level,
and the golf course still won't yield a good score,
(16:25):
then there's probably something wrong with the golf course. Um.
And so I think that, you know, that's it's just
there's always going to be this ego. There's always gonna
be this pride of people at their clubs or their
facilities wanting to their golf course to appear to be
a good enough test um for these guys. But unless
you get wind and dry, firm conditions, they're going to
(16:47):
shoot good scores because they're just that good. And I
think that we just have to apply that new normal,
that new standard to what winning scores are going to be.
I've had success in arguing that with people that it
to to focus on the disparity or the spray out
of the scores to get them off of obsessing about
that that low number and then seeing if if, of
course indeed kind of spread out the field and and
(17:09):
we did people out that that actually is a greater
statement about that it rewarded good play, but it also
kind of beat somebody up who was not on their game. Yeah,
I agree. I think you were looking at like when
Rory won a congressional or um, you know, Gary Woodland
at at Pebble Beach, Um, you know it was he
(17:30):
was the only one I think double digits under parts
of people might look at that and go, okay one
the US Open. Well, actually he played really great golf,
and it was it was you know, three other guys
that were anywhere close. And you're right, I think that
that's the case. Whereas you you know, um, Aaron Hills,
where there were just a hundred guys or a lot
(17:51):
of non hundred, but a lot of guys under part.
It was just it was a different type of tournament.
So I think you're right in that sort of Um,
the spread in the score. If somebody plays exceptional golf,
the golf course should yield the score to that. Yeah.
So you are in the midst of doing presenting this
master plan to the members. Um, the tour will be
(18:12):
back this week. You will not be able to be there,
but tell us a little bit about what you'll either
look for when you're you're maybe watching the replay on
Golf Channel in the evening or on the weekend and relaxing,
or or afterwards, when maybe Steve Win's Law will provide
you with shot linked at. What are the things that
you're you're watching for colonial this week? It's a golf
(18:36):
course that most players there will only gonna be a
few holes where they're going to hit driver, So it's
mainly it's mainly gonna be fairway medals and even driving
irons off of the tea. So I think it'll be
interesting to watch how you know, the longer hitters navigate
their way around the golf course itself. Um. You know,
part of a big part of this master plan that
(18:58):
that we're hopeful to present this fall is going to
be you know, an agronomic piece which I know you're
very familiar with, and these clubs sort of upgrading, um
their ability to grow grass and tough growing conditions. So um,
Scott Eber's, the golf course superintendent, does a great job
down there, but trying to grow ben grass and you
know night, you know, this time of year, in particular,
(19:20):
a couple of weeks after when they normally have the tournament.
I'm hopeful that you know, the golf course conditioning will
will hold up because that's a lot of what we're
talking about. You know, growing ben grass in Texas is
not this is not easy. In their tools that that
can help that. So I think we be looking at
the conditioning of the golf course and and how hopefully
(19:40):
what we're proposing will will help that long term, and
then you know, putting. Um. The one thing about Colonial
that's interesting is that now that the greens are up,
most of them are set up above the grade, and
you know, with deeper bunkers and around them, is the
the approach play. I think, Um, I'm always curious to
(20:02):
see how many guys hit greens when they're perched up
like that, and especially since we're talking about lowering a
lot of them and putting them for it, closer to
the ground, So I'll be kind of curious to watch
the approach play into them. And then, like you and
like everybody else who listens to this, I'm just happy
to have golf back. It's gonna be it's gonna be
fun to watch, it's gonna be different, it's gonna be interesting.
(20:23):
But I think it's um, you know, for all of us,
it's gonna be a wonderful distraction to have some you know,
have meaningful live sports again. Yeah, I'm interesting. I listened
to the call today with Sean McManus and Jim Nance
and Nick Fowlo. They're gonna have a drone. They think
they're they're fine tuning it, but they're probably gonna have
a drone out there because there are no people, so
they're gonna mimic Fox a little bit. On the live drops.
(20:44):
You may get some different views of Colonial just quickly.
The bent grass thing, is that um sort of a
part of the history. Marvin Leonard was big on bent grass.
I I read somewhere is that part of the reason
of sticking with it. Yep, that's absolutely correct, was his
his legacy and obviously as the founder of the club,
the club you know, takes it very importantly that you know,
(21:06):
his contributions to the place and his legacy. I think
they felt very strongly given the opportunities that present themselves now,
you know, with with hydraulics and with the ability to
work with soil temperatures and obviously new greens, mikes, etcetera, etcetera,
I think we'll give them a really good chance to
have finally conditioned turf, you know, even during the height
(21:29):
of the summer. And one last Colonial question, is there
any ability to you mentioned seeing where they're going to
be approaching from all that kind of stuff, is there
any ability to get driver in their hands a little
bit more to bring back some of the things that
that Hogan loved about it. In that sense, there's a
few spots where we're going to be able to lengthen
(21:50):
a couple holes, but there's it's pretty well maxed out.
So um. You know, there are a few things that
were done in the most recent UM innovation to the
golf course that I think I tried to tighten up
the landing zones and and they're you know, adding some
bumkers that were not part of the original design. We're
proposing to take some of those out so that you know,
(22:12):
the penalty is much more just the rough and the trees, um.
And so maybe that'll allow golfers, you know, the tour
players to feel a little bit freer off the team.
Maybe take driver, Okay, one more break and then I
have a little bit of a bone to pick with
Gil about something that had just popped up on the internet.
We'll be right back on the Shack Show, all right, gil.
(22:40):
So Golf magazine h slash golf dot com posted something
online yesterday, your top ten I assume this was it
was written in January, and your beautiful handwriting your top
ten courses in the world and it's a was this
part of their ranking? Is that why they asked you
(23:02):
that I your panelists there? I believe yeah, I'm a panelist,
and I think they just said they it's different part
part of the sorry, different parts of the year. They're
just gonna ask some different panelists to throw out their
top ten. And uh, first question by Ran Morrissett was
are you willing to do this? I thought, well, yeah,
I mean, I don't think I'm gonna make ame by
(23:23):
mad but apparently I've upset you. So upset. Not upset,
I just I just have a question. Well, it's a
fantastic list. It starts what I love, of course, that
you did, which I think is the perfect way to
do this. You start with number one the old Course,
number two National, and then you draw a line and
the rest are just alphabetical. But those two are on
another level, another plane there, at least us in who
(23:45):
studyed golf architecture. They're the kind of the the ultimate cathedral.
So then you got you have a Chicago golf club,
l a country club. This is an alphabetical order. Marion, Merefield,
Pine Valley, Royal County Down Royal, Melbourne West all amazing courses,
all places that people should drop everything they're doing if
(24:06):
they get the chance to play if they're not a member,
But uh, can you guess which one? Kind of surprised
me a little bit just knowing your style of design.
And by the way, very nice that you didn't mention
one of your own courses like that really confirmed you're
not a member of the Jones family. But anyone on
the list you think that, I'm cypress cypress point, Yes,
(24:28):
I'm sorry, yes, okay, I was like, wait a second,
skipped over that. Sorry, that's right before Chicago Golf Club,
which one you wouldn't like and I wouldn't like. I
just wonder why of all the places in that region
would you pick that one field? Desolutely? Yeah, that was
just that was one of so I played there recently
(24:51):
and I just I don't know, there was something about
it that I just I've forgotten and remember just how
you know, it's not dramatic, it's certainly not the most
dramatical links out there, but the bunkering is such and
I think it's it's um you know what old Tom Morris,
old water media, Um, you know, just the I love
(25:11):
the feel of that place. There's just something about it
that it's it's magical to me. Yeah, and I mean,
and trust me, I know where would I rather play?
Probably North Barrack, which is just down the road. That's yeah.
But but you know it's that whole sort of um,
(25:32):
you know, argument that you don't not argument, but discussion
that that we have is all right. I understand that
Shinnecock Hills is a probably a quote unquote better test
of golf, but I'd rather play it national. I understand that,
you know, I think Merfold is probably the better test
of golf. Um, but I probably I'd rather play it
North Barrack. But I also was thinking, all right, how
(25:54):
do we stack? Yeah, well it is I mean I
would have put I put Dornick. There's several others I
put out. So what which ones would you throw out?
North Well, north Barrick. Oh, that's the only one I
throw off, and it's it's fantastic and in fact, well
we'll get to but another argument about it. But I mean,
I I don't know if you've seen term very since
(26:14):
Martin Ebert redid it, but I put that ahead of
a Carnoustie. I really kind of fell in love with
again seeing it at the Open, I had forgotten some
things I forgot. I don't know if I want to
play it every day, I'd rather go to pam Mere,
but cruden Bay. I love Prestwick. I've just come to
really love um but dorn Dornick and north bericare the
(26:34):
two that I feel like or more you But that
was just my my reaction. But the Part three's in
mirr Field, I think you and I discuessed that the
set at Los Angeles Country Club is as good as
set apart three's on the planet, and I think people
will see that when they have the US Open. But
Mirror Fields are are pretty incredible. UM and I you
(26:59):
would you would get a kick out of this. UM.
I was doing a Golf World preview story on mere
Field before Open, and I was at uh the Memorial
and Jack Nicholas does this great session where he just
kind of everybody gathers around him and people just sort
of throw out things that they're working on for various tournaments.
(27:21):
And I was doing a story on how all the
Part three's are uphill at at Merefield and you love
uphill Part three's, I know, and most of the best
part threes in the world are either flat or uphill.
And so I threw it out at him, I said, uh,
doing this story and and uh he immediately shot it down. No,
(27:41):
they're not, No, they're not. And then he paused, he went, okay,
well let's go number four and then he and he
proceeded to go through them, and all these writers are
sitting there, of course, just going who cares about? But
then as he kept going through it, and he he
he had to admit, okay, well, yeah, they all kind
a little bit up. And then some writer chimed in
(28:03):
from the local paper with a question went no, no, no, no,
I'm not done yet. All the writers that really perked up,
and he proceeded to just kind of go through them
and what he loved about h those holes and but
why he likes a little more visibility at his part
three's And then of course, classic Jack at the end,
he goes, did did you get what you need? And
you're like, you just went for five minutes on it
(28:25):
on part threes? Of course, yes you you did. Uh,
you did very well, thank you, Mr Nicholas. So um,
but they are a great set of part threees there,
they really are. Yeah, So all right, Well, that that
was all. I just wanted to to get some claret
on that and uh, very important first world matter here.
So of course, thank you so much for for kind
of prepping us. I mean, we're all, like you said,
(28:46):
we're all excited about the watching some golf again. But
I think it's of course that that we all have
kind of scratched our head at television doesn't do certain
things justice. And also sort of knowing it's it's history
will be interesting to see. I hope you get to
do a lot of things that bring back a little
more of that charm. Well, I hope so as well.
(29:06):
We're really excited about it. I think, you know, we're
looking forward to get in front of the members and
hopefully get them excited about it as well. And you know,
it isn't lost on me. And I think it's kind
of cool that, you know, aside from Riviera colonials, probably
the most you have the longest term uh course on tour,
and it's got obviously a tremendous tournament history, and so
(29:27):
it's kind of cool that they're they're going back, they're
starting off at one of these great old course. Is
that we're all familiar with that. We all have memories
of watching on TV, and I think that that's a
that's a great way to get the tour back. And
obviously they've got a phenomenal field, so I think I'm
sure the folks that in Fort Worth the Colonial are
really excited about that. Yeah. Absolutely, all right, Well, thank
(29:50):
you so much, Gil, You're welcome. Jeff always always get
talking to you. All right, thanks again to Gil Hants
for appearing here on The Shack Show and sharing some
of his insights into Colonial. It should be a fun week.
We will cover it, we will analyze it on Jeff
Shackle for dot com. We it's me um And of course,
if you have any feedback about the show, don't hesitate
(30:12):
to contact me there or write a nice review on
iTunes is always a good thing, or just give it
a nice rating there that seems to just still matter,
or just listen to it on the I Heart Radio app.
And by the way, the Shock Show, just so you know,
is produced by Tim Protka and is a production of
my Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart, visit
the irt radio app, Apple Podcasts, or listen wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. So until next time, please
(30:35):
be safe and thank you for listening, and I will
be back soon
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