May 1, 2020 • 46 mins
In episode 8 of the Shack Show, 11x National Sportswriter of the Year and author, Rick Reilly, joins Geoff Shackelford to discuss his approach to his latest column in the Washington Post and the idea of golf and sports returning soon. Then Rick talks about some stories in his book, Commander in Cheat, Nothing But Nets and his favorite writers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey there, Welcome to The Shack Show. You know, Rick
Riley has been writing about sports since the nine He's
an eleven time National Sports Writer of the Year. He's
(00:22):
written thirteen books, including the beloved Missing Links and his
latest Commander in Cheat, and he's covered everything known to man,
but loves golf almost as much as he loves Italian
food and a good story. I want to get Rick
on the phone and talk about his new column in
the Washington Post. Actually it's about a week gold. The
first things I'll do when this is over. It was
just vintage Rick Riley, and I really hope you enjoy
(00:45):
our discussion of that and many other diverse topics in
this conversation with Rick from his home in southern California.
What Happened? I loved this Washington Post piece. She wrote
it was vintage, and I know that's a cliche, vintage
Rick Riley, vintage Jim Murray, whatever you want to call
what what happened? You decided to get back in the
(01:06):
in the column riding Game. One column is not a
really good one. Okay, good, thank you. Well, It's just
I just kept thinking about what I would love to
do the minute I get out, and you know, as
a consumer of news, everything was bad. So I wanted
to write something good, something that gave some meet you,
(01:29):
some of the little hope. So, um, I did this
thing on what's the first thing I'm gonna do when
there's a over Now that's a long way off, but
I'm just the one thing I want to do is
spin the toilet paper roll like it's like I'm on
wheel fortune. I'm just gonna let loose, you know what
I mean. You have a low stockpile, is what you're
(01:50):
admitting to us today. I'm doing maybe as they stay
in the army one for one square for up, one
square for down, and one too. Okay, well it's really
you've got a Costco near you that case they're empty empty. Uh.
But then and then, and then, um, I'm just gonna
(02:11):
I think I'm really gonna do is blink as I
go outside for the first time and see a person,
a complete stranger, and go up to them with open
arms and say, what day is it? Yeah? Because I
have no idea. Sometimes I can't tell Sundays from Thursdays. Yeah.
I wish people have a good weekend on some fridays
like today when we're recording this, and then I realized, what,
what's what is the point? What's the difference? It's it's pointless.
(02:35):
But what doesn't matter? But I have done I've done
more writing because I can't get on my paddle board.
I can't get on a golf course, I can't go
to Italy. Um. I can play a lot of piano,
but three of my four things have been wiped out.
I mean, how can they not let me on my paddleboard?
But I guess I'm gonna upset the fishes. Um. So
it's it's been fun. So I I just sold a
(02:58):
book Idea, which I can't tell you. But I'm writing
a couple of movies, and so every now and then
I throw a pitch at the Washington Post or Atlantic
and it's kind of fun. Well, it was great. It
was a fun read. And one of the things that uh,
you do so well is crack jokes. But this is
(03:18):
a time that's really difficult to try and be funny.
It was actually getting that way before this hit. How
do you when you sit down to write, do you
just decide, well, screw it? People need to laugh and
and we need to take in the absurdity of all
this is that how you you go back? Because I've
(03:40):
struggled with that since uh well really for about the
last six weeks of how do you? How do you
make light of anything? It's It's tricky, isn't it. You
can laugh at anything. Remember Dan Jenkins, a great golf writer,
used to tell his kids, let's just let's just laugh
our problems down the pocket size, which was such a
great line. Laugh Probably now this is probably too big
(04:01):
to laugh down in the pocket size. But people do
need to laugh. I mean, this is If you can't
laugh at this, you'll go out of your mind. We
had a friend talking to a friend last night and
I really like he's kind of cracking up. So I've
always kind of wrote, I've always written how I want
to write, and just see what people do with it,
and generally it's gone okay. So I'm never gonna let
(04:26):
someone or the time to dictate how it right. But
I I did say in that piece, you know watching
Andrew about Challey, you know you and I both love
it him singing alone in the in the in the
Duomo in Milan, This beautiful gift that no one was
listening to in the place, and yet the whole world
(04:47):
was listening to and it was so sad, and yet
it was so beautiful and it was and you and
you realize we're so alone because we're giving this gift
to each other and trying not to make each other
sick and die, and it's such a lovely thing to do.
We're so doing it out of love for each other.
At the same time it's so lonely. So just you
(05:08):
know how, I just cried like an idiot, and I
don't know. That made me think this is going to
end something, right, Let's give people some hope. Well, And
as you know, a lot of people are clinging to
the idea of sports being the thing that returns and
and returns their sanity. And it doesn't seem like certain
(05:28):
sports can return too soon. Golf is likely to be
one of the first. What do you make of this
idea of of golf returning and no fans or or
a PGA Tour event feeling like a corn ferry event
on a Thursday. Is this gonna be good for golf
or this this risky? Well, first of all, I am
(05:51):
so freaking for sports. I'm getting a facial tick. The
other day, I was walking the dog and there's two
these two kids there, maybe eight and nine, were throwing
the football in the alley, and I stopped to watch
them throw the football and didn't mean to. I'm like,
I like, I like the redhead footboard with him with
(06:11):
a nice tight spiral. Um. I wish the tall kid
would would catch with his with his hands more than
against the body. That's gonna And then then I realized
their mom was at me, and I'm like, I have
you know, it's really bad, Jeff, it's really getting bad.
And I can't bet, like you know, you know. It's
just so I really need sports back. So yes, bring
(06:34):
golf people like, oh, it wouldn't be the same without fans,
I don't care. Bring them back, and starting with golf
golf especially I don't know if you know what you
probably do. There was one day, uh in PGA Tour
history with no fans, and I think it was a
tournament of Congressional after a big windstorm and there were
big branches everywhere, and they played and they played and
(06:57):
the scores counted, and to me, it's gonna be fun.
It's gonna be fun to watch these guys play golf,
because there's not gonna be these freaking tiger fans who's
to put their chest in front of the ball to
keep his ball from going way over the green. And
when they hit it way the hell right into the
crazy stuff that you and I would have to gouge
(07:19):
it out of the spinach. That stuff is going to
be beat down with. It is no longer going to
be beat down with people's footprints. They're gonna actually have
to go outsideways right now. They go there and say, oh,
thank you. Same with what would you say, Jeff? Lost balls?
How many lost balls? How many balls are found purely
by fans and not the caddy. It's got to be
(07:42):
a lot of those are gonna stay lost, you know.
And and lastly, we all know the bailout shot. You know,
there's a there's a there's a green too, Part five.
You can go for it in two, but there's a
big lake left to the right of the green is
the grand stand. Oh, I'll just bail out right if
(08:03):
I have to, and I get a free drop, right.
We don't get that in regular golf, and with no fans,
no grandstand. So I think keeps right. I think they
are going to shoot maybe maybe one maybe one stroke
high or maybe stroke and a half. I think you're right,
they're gonna lose some balls now he he Uh. The headline,
(08:24):
of course when on that story was the guys are
gonna lose their balls, which didn't look great. But he
said it in a way when you when you heard
him lay it out, you understood it. However, when you
combine that with a couple of other comments lately, Rick,
when I'm starting to worry about Initially it was all
about to me. It was about testing and and and
(08:45):
and not looking tone deaf to what's going on in
the world. And and I'm confident that these commissioners believe,
at least for golf, they're gonna be able to test
everybody keep it limited. I think they have some irrational
thoughts on who's essential to being on pro pretty shot
link and nonsense like that. We we just want to
see golf. We don't care if it's the nineteen sixties
(09:05):
looking telecast where Dottie Peppers announcing from her from her
home in Saratoga. But Rick, as you saw when you
in the short time you were away from golf, I'm
pretty confident you saw a little bit of a change,
and one of those changes is they're in a bubble.
And this week we we had Scott Stallings say some
guys just may not play if they can't have ranks
(09:26):
and the buckers, and Adam Hadwin mentioned that the lack
of our being able to take the flagstick out of
the hole because he can't pump very well with the flagstick,
in which I understand, but bringing this up looked it
sounded ridiculous. And I do worry that we're gonna have
this bubble burst where some of these players who've been
in it are going to be exposed when they come
(09:47):
back and play in our whining after the round about
a lost Paul or a put they just couldn't couldn't
get a feel for because the flag stick was in
even better, even better. I love that kind of calm.
These guys are whining. People are getting moved out of
their house, they can't pay their mortgage, and they were
worried about, oh, I can't put. I don't want to
drop in a bunker out of a footprint. And by
(10:09):
the way, that would be a lovely call to give
me that. So you think of it as the columnist
you're still a columnist at heart. I love that. Yeah,
I know, I know. I every time I go out
with the dog, I take a pair of plastic, you know,
surgical rubber, surgical gloves. Why can't the caddies wear gloves? Yeah.
(10:29):
I don't get the problem with the flags that I
don't get the problem with with the rake. I mean, okay,
you don't want to you don't want to rake, that's fine,
just but you can't drop out of the bunker. You
gotta stay in the bunker. It's a hazard. And he
only that, Jeff, you hire, you hire a volunteer on
every green and just he runs, he runs the flag. Yeah, okay,
(10:50):
that's where I get concerned about the perception thing. So
there's eighteen more people on the property, and they're gonna
they're gonna have gloves on. They're gonna look like jeeves
when they come out and lift the flag and hold
it on you on a platter. It's just another one
of those things like whoa, we had to test that person,
but a nurse and in Detroit couldn't get a test,
and and and it just looks so ridiculous. Whereas I
(11:14):
think the people who are thinking about these things. Just that.
Just leave the damn flag in the in the cup
and don't be a baby. Okay, it's a perception thing.
Just deal with it. And we have rules now that
allow for it, as as you know the new rules.
And by the way, it was so hilarious to me
when people say, I can't believe NBA players can get
(11:36):
tested and and we we haven't been able to find
a test. Really, you're surprised NBA players get free stuff?
I mean, do you realize Kevin Durant has ten cars?
I mean, do you realize that you know, these guys
used to go through two hookers before every game. Are
you surprised that they get great stuff? Same with PGA Tour. Yeah,
(12:00):
they're gonna so sorry they get tested. That's life. And
by the way, you're never going to stop this thing.
You're unless you come to the vaccine or you're suddenly
able to get people to freeze in place, and then
the thing dies. So the question isn't what we're gonna
do if someone The question is what are you going
to do with the tour when someone tests positive? Because
(12:23):
I keep saying this, there has to be some turning
on of the spigot you've got to be able to
get to herd immunity, which we know is somewhere between
sixties six percent, and otherwise you're just sitting around for
a year and a half waiting for a vaccine. So
are you saying that if one, if if Scott Stallings
(12:44):
test positive or coronavirus, that's it, we're shutting down the
PGA tour. I think we've we've realized we can't do that.
We've the world has got to move on to where
we can test. Okay, you're positive, now we quarantine you. Okay,
We're definitely we're going to start opening restaurants and we're
(13:06):
gonna have a third capacity, and we're still going to
quarantine nursing home. It's just you're gonna have to get
the world back rolling again. I agree, and I think
that's why Jay Monahan came around from from where he
was to just saying, hey, we've got to have tests,
and if you have tests, I would also love to
see them ask people of a certain vintage maybe stay home,
(13:28):
uh for for the the upcoming months. But to your point,
to really get wonky. One of the problems that they
have with that idea of somebody testing positive. Uh, they
have decided, excuse me, to try to force the FedEx
Cup to be played this year with not much time
and the all of a mighty FedEx Cup, which not
(13:48):
one person who as those first events cares about. Um
that that player who who test positive and has to
sit out for a while, suddenly you know he's done
in the FedEx Cup and uh, and he's gonna be
mad and and it's not right. So they they they're
trying to do a little too much. I I hope
that part of it doesn't back as well. So hold on,
(14:12):
We're gonna take a quick break here on the Shack
Show and then talk to Rick about a few more things.
So Rick, let's talk about Italy. You mentioned it, you
(14:35):
spent some time there. You wrote a wonderful travelogue piece
for me that I hope you've now used for for
other people during the Ryder Cup when you were there
and it it made my trip. I can't thank you enough. Oh,
it was just unbelievable. Can I tell you I've shared
it with quite a few people because when I mentioned
your amazing travel advice, they said, can I can I
(14:57):
read it? I'm going there? And they did, and they
went to all the same rest staurants and and just
had a wonderful time. So thank you again so much
for that. UM have you well you know you're a
basketball guy, and I gave it to UM. This group
of people that were going that included Pat Riley and uh,
Pat just went crazy over some of those places. Can
(15:19):
you just tell about the place? Can you just tell
about the Cheese Wheel fund of the Cheese Wheel place. Yeah,
well I put it on Instagram that that alone. Just
putting that on Instagram, Uh, it just was. It just
had people going bonkers. And it's yeah, they served the
pasta and they toss it in the in the cheese wheel,
and and it just tastes did cheese Wheel. They bring
(15:41):
the cheese, giant cheese with the table, they heat it
from below, they carve out like a little of the
facto saucepan, and then the fresh pasta which they've made
in the window of the place. As you're walking in,
the ladies in there making the fresh pasta, throwing it
in the air, and then and then they heated in
the and then they poured onto your plate with a
(16:02):
few truffles, and you're just like, well, I'm never leaving
here just chained me to the radiator. And the truffles
actually taste like what you hear they're supposed to taste like,
versus the ones we have here that just seemed like
they don't there there, There isn't much there. You wonder
what what's going on? But anyway, well, well one quick
trouble story. So we live in Florence and we I
(16:24):
used to see this guy walking around with this briefcase
and it was a silver briefcase and he seemed like
a spy or something like. Yes, and it's the truffle guy.
And he goes from restaurant to restaurant and they're so expensive.
And I asked him and he said, said what are
you get in to day? And he said buff fifteen
(16:45):
thousand euro? Wow. So when was the last time you
were there? Well, we go every year in the fall,
but we trying desperate to go this year. We have
so many friends are just devastated. Man, I mean, I
don't know if it'll will ever be the same. What
what do you what? What what are people saying? I
(17:06):
mean is there are they just having the same questions
as we have here about dining out and life is
we know what kind of thing changing or are they well, yes,
it was just it was just more, it was worse.
It was that remember that terrible week in New York
where there was a refrigerated truck behind the Queen Gaspital
and they were storing bodies and and and that was.
(17:26):
That was every week for about three weeks there, and
they just like that. They couldn't see the end of it.
So now they're finally starting to get some good numbers
and and sort of coming out of the hole. But um,
they're gonna they have this new they have this new
slogan which is postpone your plans to come to Italy,
don't cancel because it's literally they're barely hanging on. So
(17:51):
we really want to go and encourage people to go.
They're going to be fine if if we don't just attend.
And then right, yeah, well good well, And I I
do hope the everything eventually gets back to normal to
travel and the Ryder Cup happens there in Ino or
twenty three whenever, whenever they figure out the whole schedule.
But um, so I wanted to talk a little bit
(18:15):
about your return. You were to golf, you were doing
some pieces for the athletic and it was a lot
of fun watching you try to deal with our our
current interview room set up, and then the way the
players are where they're convinced you're trying to um find
out something about them that is laurad and awful, and
(18:36):
when you're just trying to get a few anecdotes and tidbits.
What did you see just in a few years you
you stopped going to golf tournaments, a change in in
the way the players behave and think of media or
is it is it something I'm just perceiving. Yeah, absolutely
it was. It was like one time I was in
(18:58):
Eat East Berlin before the walls fell, and it was
starting to feel like that in that press room. I
mean I couldn't believe the limit and it reminded me
of tennis where you get, you know, seven questions and
then Federer walks away and you don't get to follow
him or go to his locker, and like, what's what's
going on here? Guys? We used to be able to
talk and you can still get it done, but my god,
(19:20):
that Ryder Cup it was impossible. I mean it was
always hard, but we could always we could get guys,
and we did come out of the room for us
and and you could ask, man, they just and of
course there was so much emotion going on, as always
because it's the greatest sporting event in the world. But
um yeah, it was like, you can't talk directly to me.
You've got to go through my pr guy or my
(19:42):
nutritionist or my sports psychologists or my chatty union guy
or whatever it is. So I thought I felt severely
disturbed by what was going on out there. And so
that's partly why, Hey, one year of that was enough.
You're gonna go back the books and movies, Jesus. But
(20:02):
I mean I did it. I did it so that
I could really um mind people for Trump stories from
my book and a commander and cheat and so many
people had stories that the paperback just came out. I
had to add an extra chapter because so many people
stopped me on the street. I had to roll up
(20:23):
my car windows. People, I got a story for you.
And they're not all bad. I mean, he's, as I've
always said, he's a lot of fun. It's not golf
when you play with him, I don't know what it is.
You're done in three and twenty minutes. You play through
three groups Um, he uh, he knows everybody. Yeah, the circle,
(20:45):
Yeah you dressed. Sometimes you drive on you drive on
te boxes. That's wild. There's no honors. He always hits
first jumps in his cart. And he's off with the
with the caddies and what was the guy named Tim Peel?
The caddy master at Bedminster called me and says that
I loved your book, but I got some stories. You
should have called me, like I never even heard yet.
(21:08):
So he goes up, do you know that we used
to have to buy two thousand bags of two thousand
four in extra long green teas for him? And I'm like,
so teas aren't illegal? He goes, well, they are when
they when the caddies have them in their pockets and
they tea him up in the rough, and I'm like, oh,
because I heard so many stories about what a good
(21:30):
player he does out of the rock, he goes just
because they're teeing it up. They're like, oh my god,
look like Bobby Jones. But maybe the best story was
a kind of funny. Um two thousand eight Trump, Westchester.
Trump is in a scramble and his scramble team is him,
(21:52):
Bill Clinton, Mike Bloomberg and Rudy Giuliani. It's the Joe
Tory Charity Emble, and so off they go in They're
playing at Trump's course, and despite the circle of friendship
being the size of a Winnebago with Trump, which is
always is, they don't finish anywhere near the league. They
(22:13):
finished like halfway down. And Trump comes in and he's mad,
and he finds this guy, Timothy O'Neill, who was running
the tournament, and uh. He says, hey, I want low
individual net today. Give me the trophy in terms like
why it's a it's a scramble. No, I want low
individual net. Give me the trophy. And Tim is like,
(22:36):
but there is no trophy for that because it's a
team event. There's no give me the trophy. I'm leaving
in twenty minutes. So he doesn't know what to do.
He's gonna lose the course. He found his but one
of his staff members, a woman, goes in the women's bathroom,
finds finds a vase with flowers in it, yanks the
flowers out, throws them away, dumps the water, hands it
(22:59):
to O'Neill. Oh you look, it takes the flower base
up to the podium and says, and now are low
individual net winner of the day Donald Trump. And Trump
comes to the podium and Clinton and Julianne and Bloomberg
are like, what the hell low individual what? And Kim's
like the best The best part of it was he
(23:20):
gave a twelve minute speech about how he diet it. Oh, anyway,
so well, I don't want to I don't want to
spoil too many of the stories from the book, but
there are proceeds from the book going to where is
it feeding Feeding American American dot org? What is that
a dollar per paperback? It's I mean, I was driving
(23:44):
by in downtown l A. And saw a line that
must have been three blocks long, and it was the
food bank. People are starving. So this is one little
thing we can do. And anyway, the book is not
especially political. It's more fun. And um, I've had both
Trump lovers and Trump haters say they loved it. But
(24:06):
then the Trump haters always say the same thing, Yeah
Clinton cheated, he cheated too, And I'm like, yeah, he
did cheat because I played with him as president, I said,
But it's kind of like the guy that goes in
the bank and steals the pen versus the guy that
goes and steals the fault like went would take these
things called Billigan's where he hit a he hit a
shot and then and then he'd hit six more from
(24:30):
that place. But he played the first Paul. But then
sometimes you couldn't remember which was the first ball, and
the Secret Services say, all, Mr President, I think it's
the one on the green right here, because every Secret
Service guy, when he's done, wants to be ambassador to Sweden.
And in that way, he shot eighty two that day,
which was the best day of his life. Do you
get a lot of hate mail or angry stuff regarding
(24:54):
your tweeting, your appearances, anything talking about the book? Or
do people just leave you alone? Oh? Yes, yes, I mean,
but you know, Mark Cuban taught me something I mean
not to drop, but he said, I said, you know,
I like to tweet, and it's fun to give my opinion,
but I can't stand uh, all the people, the haters
(25:14):
on the note you know, and the you know that,
the messages, the replies underneath right the notification. He goes,
why do you read them? Like? I don't know. I
thought you were supposed to. He goes, let me ask
you this. You leave your Do you leave your front
door open so someone can come into a baseball bat
and hit you in the head. No, you lock the door.
So give your opinions and don't read what people say
(25:37):
about those opinions. And ever since then, Twitter and Facebook
and all that stuff has been a joy because Charles
Barkley told me once, you know, you could change your
opinion and all those people that hated you before would
now love you. But all the people who loved you
before would now hate you. But what's the difference? Yeah,
I always thought that was smart. Now, um, I want
to cover a few writing related things, but but one
(25:59):
of somewhat similar to what you're doing with the book
proceeds here, but on a grander scale, an unbelievable scale.
It was in two thousand six she wrote a column
for s I and it was about, um, well, if
you don't mind just telling us and reminding us about
nothing but nets and what that's done, if you don't
(26:22):
mind humble breaking, because I think it's people forget as
you know very quickly, you're very kind, uh, and sports
fans are the greatest people in the world. And I'll
tell you why because on May six, two six, um,
I was in Venice and it was with my daughter,
and she was sixteen years old, and she had shopped
my legs off and I couldn't do it anymore, and
(26:43):
I said, I gotta go back to the room. So
she keeps shopping. I see a BBC documentary where the
guy goes, did you know three thousand kids a day
are dying simply because of malaria? Simply because they don't
sleep under a bednet. If they would just sleep under
the bednet this ms heto that that transmits millaria only
comes out between midnight and four and they wouldn't die.
(27:06):
And especially before under six years old, they are almost
certain to die. They get it, And I'm like, come on,
sports fans, we love nets, right, we love jumping over
tennis nets and cutting down basketball nets and a net
in our front yard for your kids to play lacrosse,
and new jersey nets and girls and fish nets. And
(27:27):
I don't know everything, so I said, send me ten bucks.
I called the United Nations Foundation. Could I could I
have a little square of your page. I want people
to send money to raise money for nets And they said, okay,
what do you want to call it? I said, nothing
but nets and and the first week we raised over
a hundred grand. Jeff, we've just passed seventy million dollars.
(27:51):
We put up ten million nets. It's still going strong. Um.
Trump has kind of hurt us with that drug. I
can't even pronounce rock floric. We need that for malaria,
especially in South America. UM, sometimes people do get bit
and that helps us. I don't know that it really
helps with this. Maybe it does, but we're running out
(28:13):
that really good. But it's been mostly sports fan and
in ten bucks, Um, they say they save a life.
Don't buy the Britney Spears c D and a twenty
bucks you save your life and the two people and
so it's support takes forty one seconds. I'm nothing but
nets dot net and as I say, I'm trying to
(28:34):
get Maria Sharapova to help us. And so let's say why.
And I said, look, every time you get hit on
by a guy, and don't go without with the Russian
famous Russian tennis star. Every time you turn a guy down,
you you know, you send us a grant goes why
nothing but nyet and I think that would be great.
I haven't been able to get to her. Yeah, I mean, well, season.
(28:55):
She lives in Brentwood, so I'll let you know if reopens.
I seen her and she is legitimately tall. Um. But
thanks for bringing that up because it's an incredible story.
By the way, the website has a forty seven million,
so let's let's get that updated. Talk to your, Talk
to yours, and let's update the joke. Rick, it's it's
it's one month of Spotify for the kids out there
(29:16):
listening just you know, nobody, But actually it's funny. Nobody
buy CDs anymore. I'm actually getting back into both vinyl
and my CDs because the audio quality is better, and
I just I just enjoy opening them up and and
touching and maybe looking at lyrics and all that stuff,
seeing who played the bass, and really important thing. Neil
(29:39):
Young is on this kick. He says that, yes, of
the sound is gone from the days of of analog. Right,
we've got to get because he says, it's it's like
a lost treasure if we if we lose vinyl, will
never get down. And I haven't set up now in
my office with some speakers, and it is stunning the
(30:01):
things you do here. I finally have it right, and
the things you hear even c D versus an MP three.
It's it's it's uh incredibly I know he's tried that
different audio format. And uh, but speaking of that now,
the other medium that we love, that is I believe
really making a comeback. We'll see how how book sales
are at some point, but the physical book I think
(30:24):
is still precious to a lot of people from from
what I since uh you mentioned in that Washington Post
column you've been doing some some reading. You mentioned, uh Woodhouse,
what are the the are who are the people that
you still enjoy cracking open a book and reading a
little of and and and who are the people who
(30:46):
who got you and helped you devote develop your voice
the way you did as a writer. Oh, I know
it's a long list, but but who are the ones
that ever read? Was Jim Murray? Well, of course da
camera And I'm like, what the heck is this? This
is the most fun fast quick you know, John Wooden
(31:06):
square as a pan of fudge and gentlemen start your
coffins and uh, you know, boom pal is the approximate
size of the Chicago Hilt and and just like what
is this? And it was fantastic and then I had
the great luck stroke of luck to get hired at
the l a times when he was there, and he
became my friend and mentor, and he told me a
(31:27):
great piece of advice. He's a kid. There's no loss,
as they says, they got to read you. Make it fun,
make it interesting. He says, Yeah, you can have a
great first paragraph, but what are you gonna do when
it's like the guy in front of the circus tent.
He can get him in the circus, but the circus
better be good. They get good all the way through.
And and that really helped me. So Oscar Oscar Wilde
(31:49):
also is one of my favorites. I've been rereading him,
and he's the guy that said, never write a stons
you've already read, which is such a typical Oscar wild
thing to say. But it really matters because if you
can sit there and take out your like if you
really honestly go through your copy and go, I know
I've seen this sentence before. That's kind of a cliche,
and take that out like money used to murray, used
(32:13):
to punch up dragnet scripts. I don't know if you
know this. There was no detective show called dragnets. Yeah,
and he used to punch him up until the big
guy would be like, hey, hey Joe, you really beat
the crap out of that guy. And Murray would change
it too, Hey Joe, while you turn the guy into
six ft of lumps. He looks like a science fiction story.
(32:33):
What is that? You know? And it was just that
kind of stuff. So the pay as Damon Runyan said,
that's the other guy I've been rereading. Damon Runyan said,
you gotta write sentences that jump off the page and
squirt the reader in the eye with grapefruit juice. And
it's like, yes, yes, you want, you want word pictures
and and and I've been rereading a lot of Twain.
(32:54):
And he said, you know, I get paid by the word.
Why should I type out municipality when I can say count?
It's so true, you know, you can just you can
just make it like a guy talking over a back
fence to you, only he's the funniest, clearest, and most
entertaining guy you've ever met. That's what writing should be.
(33:14):
So I've been rereading p. G. Woodhouse. I think I've
read Paul four now twenty times. I read read that
because that made me want to be a sportswriter. Graham
Green Hemingway. I mean, I'm just I mean a lot
of ways this is terrible, but a lot of this
has been really interesting, you know, sort of discovering stuff
(33:38):
that you've forgotten. Yeah, no, I think that's what a
lot of people have since. But it's also hard to
to do it, I find because you get a little
bit distracted or you feel guilty why am I doing
this or shouldn't I be following something on the news,
And but you have to do it, um and and
it's just so much better when it's it's it's a
printed book as opposed to a kindle, And there's just
(34:00):
something about popping in, popping out, just getting a uh,
just a feel. I mean, Murray, I I do that
all the time. And it's um, he's just one of
a kind. You you channel him so much in so
many ways. The thing that I loved about your most
recent colm and reminded me of and I don't when
you haven't been doing it a while, you just it's
so tight you you don't waste words. As you just described.
(34:23):
Is that something Is that a skill that when you
haven't done in a while, is tough. Yeah, No, it's
just like it's it's like I always thought, if I
was in prison um for ten years and I came
out to play golf, I'd be really good at every
pot within ten feet because I could have put it
in myself, right, Yeah, but terrible. I wouldn't know what
to do with the twenty ft put right because but
(34:46):
and that's the same I grew up uh at the
Denver Pup Boulder, caam opposed times s I where you
only had so much room. It was I had eight
hundred and fifty words tops on that back page column
and there's no changing. You don't suddenly like it's like
a dog with an electric fence and the owner guy
(35:07):
and now the electric fences down, but he still won't
leave the yard because he's just I just can't go
any farther further. And I once had a conversation with
Bill Simmons, who's you know, he's a legend, but in
a whole different way because he just goes on and
on and on. He grew up, he came up in
(35:27):
the space is infinite, and I'm like, Bill, this was
really good, except you did ten thousand words on why
Kevin Garnett should be the m v P. I mean, really,
ten thousands. I said, you're you're such a good writer,
but you need a bus load of editors. He was no, no,
he goes, I like to write stream of consciousness, my fan,
And I said, but nobody has time for ten thousand words.
(35:47):
It's a problem, and he said no, my readers skimmed me.
And I'm like, Bill, I don't think anyway ever wanted
to be skimmed. But I mean it isn't so, you know,
you and I sitting here going, oh, it's not the
same not holding a book in your in your hands.
But in forty years, people who grew up on kindles
and reading up their phones are going to say, two
(36:10):
young people, I don't like I don't like it when
the book is on your contact lenses and you blink
to change pages. I miss having a phone in my hand.
You know what I mean? We just said when we
talk about about hardcover books. Yeah, but but it is
fun to see I we obsess about data in our world,
but it is nice that they're one. There's data. The
(36:32):
only nice thing about modern internet writing is that there
is data telling people that at a certain number of words,
people are not really continuing to read. They can, they
can just they can figure that out. And then there's
plenty of data telling us that that the books hit
a peek and now we're coming back to print a
little bit more. And people do cherish. So sometimes the
(36:53):
numbers people are able to help the cause. And there
is just something different about the written word in either
a magazine or book that I love. Um speaking of
dada though, I always say that to young writers when
they asked for advice me. I try never to put
a number in my column. Numbers, just the people's eyes numbers.
(37:13):
I hate stats and oh, you know in non majors
on Thursdays, He's right, No one cares. Tell me about
him and his caddie and his wife and how his
dad hated the game. Give me stories. I hate the numbers.
Why I think I think NFL and Alice analyzing is
so bad because they just want to do numbers and
(37:34):
roll up zones in the double time and tell me
about the guy and his kids and how he almost,
you know, quit the game. And as much as you
want to talk about Howard goes Cell was full of
it and he was mean, He wasn't mean it's probably
the meanest person I ever met. He was able to
tell stories. He was like, what a moment for this
(37:55):
man who was the two years ago was sitting in
a jail cell, you know whatever. He told stories and
we and for some reason, Troy Aikman and people like
that don't seem to want to tell stories. They just
want to They just want to talk about numbers and technique,
which I think the average guy doesn't care about. Yeah,
well that's business related, and unfortunately golf is going to
(38:16):
keep going in that direction because of gambling and shot link,
which is wonderful, but as you know, golf is a
different sport with numbers. Just because you don't know who
woke up on the wrong side of the bed or
whose wife yelled at him before he left the hotel room. Right,
shot link doesn't account for those kinds of things. And
no sport does that impact you more than golf because
(38:38):
you're alone, you're you're on your own, you're playing by yourself,
it's just you and your caddy, and and your mind
is is so in control of so many things you do.
But at the same time they're fun. But yeah, I
understand your point. Sorry, but it reminds you of. For
my book Who's Your Caddy, I spent a week caddying
on the LPGA tour and I had a woman named
(38:59):
Jill McGill who's regular caddy was her living boyfriend, and
so he was still there too, And I'm like, what's
that like, I mean, you're kind of working for her,
but you're also living together and you're on the road together.
And he goes, well, it's kind of hard, and like, well,
what do you mean? He goes, well, like some days
we'll have a fight, like in the morning at breakfast,
(39:20):
and we'll be out there and we're not talking in
about the seventh hole. She'll say, well, what club do
you think it is? And I'll say five iron and
she'll go five iron. I don't even know who you
are anymore. My god, crying, Oh my god, jeez. It's
a bad mix. That is a tough, tough And there's
still a few of those couples out there, not many,
(39:41):
though they've got there. There there are a couple or
or they they caddy for another player. Now some of
them have gotten wise to that. So that's that's a
good idea. Another book I wanted to ask you about
Missing Links one of my very very favorite books. It
says on your website that it was optioned. Is that correct?
Does it ever have a chance of being made into
(40:02):
a film? Say so, we can have a golf movie
that is watchable. Uh okay? Missing Links with about four
guys playing the worst golf course in America, which happened
to be the course next to the fancy course where
they hold the US Opens and stuff. And when the
US Open rider cups come, they park they parked the
cars on this crappy course and they really resent that.
(40:25):
And then they find a hole in the hedge between
the two courses and make a bet who can get
on there and play eighteen hole? And of course they
sell each other out. It's it's all just it's supposed
to be fun, but it's also a little bit about friendship.
So anyway, now, and it was atn option. It's been
options seven times seven times, and and it was a
(40:48):
we got one time. It was how does that even happen? Wait?
Wait wait wait, how does that even happen? How? How
is the book? What does it expire? The option that's
you're not all months and you get it back, so
eighteen months it came out I think in nineties seven
and right away, Um, they've got optioned, uh for a
(41:10):
TV show on ABC. So they go start filming the
TV show and I get to the set and here's
there's a golf course which I just dreamed up in
my head with like a planted Chevy to the seven
Chevy right in front of the third te and a
dog leg part three and ridiculous stuff. But it's right
there in front of me. Was like walking around inside
(41:31):
of your imagination. And and then I said, okay, who
wrote it? And they said, well, this guy Kevin Wade
and that's all, yeah, just him. So I meet Kevin Wade.
He's never played golf, so he had the guys saying
stuff like what JA card today? Text and you know,
using pink teas and it was just a disaster. So
then it got bought by for a movie by Mel Gibson. Um,
(41:57):
I think Clooney bought at ray Leota and uh, the
Light of the Latest was two times ago. It was
Steve Correll who loves golf and he was gonna do
it filming on a Brockton, Massachusetts course where he grew up.
And every time something, as I say, nine seven point
three percent of Hollywood is he is the word no.
So so we've now seven times. Right now another guy's
(42:21):
got it, and he's trying to get the Murray's involved,
and I hope they are, but you just have to go, well,
it was a really fun book. It's still a fun
book if it's never a movie, what can we do?
I wonder why? And now I know why why golf
movies are generally not good or don't get made. And
and you've probably touched on the real reason that they
(42:41):
end up butchery. But as you know, there's so many
people in Hollywood who played golf, love golf, no golf,
and then they somehow can't seem to get it to
translate in a fun way on the screen. Except really Caddyshack.
I can tell you why. One reason is so I
hear about it all the time. You know, I belonged
(43:01):
to a country club and there's a lot of meat missing.
Lene is my favorite. Hey, what ever happened? Could we option? Fine? Option?
You know, and you get your twenty grand for eighteen
months or grand or whatever. And the problem is the
producers all think, well, I'm not going to do another
caddy Shack. Because it won't be as good. Like it's
(43:22):
not a caddyshack. It's a story about friendship. It's swingers
for golf number swingers. That's what it is. You're entering
that world of golf and gamblers, guys who take the
bus to get to the golf course and you know,
bet money they don't have and all that sort of stuff,
and so, but they're hung up on caddy shack and
then they either want to make another caddy shack, which
(43:43):
is a bad idea, or they're afraid of caddy shack,
which is also a bad idea, or they try to
mimic Tin Cup, which was fine, but I mean, it's
it's its own beast. And but I was I was
heartened by the making of Harriet Tubman's to Sor, which
sat around Hollywood for thirty five years. So we're only
(44:05):
twenty three years, so we got some years ago. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well,
I hope it happens. I love the book, and I
love all your writing, and uh, I can't wait to
see what you have next and what you're cooking up.
And thank you so much for your time today. If
I don't get golf back pretty soon, I might have
(44:25):
to take up tennis. I don't know what to do.
I can't do that, but you know what I mean.
Thanks Rick, Hey, Thanks Jeff okay, Hey quick break here,
let's hear from our sponsors. I hope you enjoyed that
(44:47):
chat with Rick Um. A lot of fun. Always enjoyable
in the areas thoughts. I think he's one of the
great talents and the history of sports writing, and it's
an honor to have him on the show. I will
put together show notes with information on nothing but nets
that's just staggering. Seventy million dollars raised. Uh started with
a column and s I just incredible anyway, and the
(45:07):
new book I will link to bookshop dot org. As
I think I've mentioned on a few other podcasts where
we've talked to authors and I got more authors coming
great way to help support local bookshops. During this time,
they've raised now one point one million dollars. They discount
the books. They're distributed by Ingram. They get them from there,
which is the main distributor. And Rick's book, their Commander
in Cheap, is in paperback now as I believe Missing
(45:30):
Links is also available. There's still in print. I'll double
check on that, but anyway, check out the show notes.
I'll link some of the other things we chatted about,
and I'll be back very soon with another author I'm
looking forward to talking to and I think you'll enjoy
as well here on The Shack Show. And once again,
as I always, thank you to the show's producer, Tim Paratka,
and to all the good people at my Heart Radio,
(45:52):
because The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
And remember for more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio up Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Talk to you soon, m HM.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey there, Welcome to The Shack Show. You know, Rick
Riley has been writing about sports since the nine He's
an eleven time National Sports Writer of the Year. He's
(00:22):
written thirteen books, including the beloved Missing Links and his
latest Commander in Cheat, and he's covered everything known to man,
but loves golf almost as much as he loves Italian
food and a good story. I want to get Rick
on the phone and talk about his new column in
the Washington Post. Actually it's about a week gold. The
first things I'll do when this is over. It was
just vintage Rick Riley, and I really hope you enjoy
(00:45):
our discussion of that and many other diverse topics in
this conversation with Rick from his home in southern California.
What Happened? I loved this Washington Post piece. She wrote
it was vintage, and I know that's a cliche, vintage
Rick Riley, vintage Jim Murray, whatever you want to call
what what happened? You decided to get back in the
(01:06):
in the column riding Game. One column is not a
really good one. Okay, good, thank you. Well, It's just
I just kept thinking about what I would love to
do the minute I get out, and you know, as
a consumer of news, everything was bad. So I wanted
to write something good, something that gave some meet you,
(01:29):
some of the little hope. So, um, I did this
thing on what's the first thing I'm gonna do when
there's a over Now that's a long way off, but
I'm just the one thing I want to do is
spin the toilet paper roll like it's like I'm on
wheel fortune. I'm just gonna let loose, you know what
I mean. You have a low stockpile, is what you're
(01:50):
admitting to us today. I'm doing maybe as they stay
in the army one for one square for up, one
square for down, and one too. Okay, well it's really
you've got a Costco near you that case they're empty empty. Uh.
But then and then, and then, um, I'm just gonna
(02:11):
I think I'm really gonna do is blink as I
go outside for the first time and see a person,
a complete stranger, and go up to them with open
arms and say, what day is it? Yeah? Because I
have no idea. Sometimes I can't tell Sundays from Thursdays. Yeah.
I wish people have a good weekend on some fridays
like today when we're recording this, and then I realized, what,
what's what is the point? What's the difference? It's it's pointless.
(02:35):
But what doesn't matter? But I have done I've done
more writing because I can't get on my paddle board.
I can't get on a golf course, I can't go
to Italy. Um. I can play a lot of piano,
but three of my four things have been wiped out.
I mean, how can they not let me on my paddleboard?
But I guess I'm gonna upset the fishes. Um. So
it's it's been fun. So I I just sold a
(02:58):
book Idea, which I can't tell you. But I'm writing
a couple of movies, and so every now and then
I throw a pitch at the Washington Post or Atlantic
and it's kind of fun. Well, it was great. It
was a fun read. And one of the things that uh,
you do so well is crack jokes. But this is
(03:18):
a time that's really difficult to try and be funny.
It was actually getting that way before this hit. How
do you when you sit down to write, do you
just decide, well, screw it? People need to laugh and
and we need to take in the absurdity of all
this is that how you you go back? Because I've
(03:40):
struggled with that since uh well really for about the
last six weeks of how do you? How do you
make light of anything? It's It's tricky, isn't it. You
can laugh at anything. Remember Dan Jenkins, a great golf writer,
used to tell his kids, let's just let's just laugh
our problems down the pocket size, which was such a
great line. Laugh Probably now this is probably too big
(04:01):
to laugh down in the pocket size. But people do
need to laugh. I mean, this is If you can't
laugh at this, you'll go out of your mind. We
had a friend talking to a friend last night and
I really like he's kind of cracking up. So I've
always kind of wrote, I've always written how I want
to write, and just see what people do with it,
and generally it's gone okay. So I'm never gonna let
(04:26):
someone or the time to dictate how it right. But
I I did say in that piece, you know watching
Andrew about Challey, you know you and I both love
it him singing alone in the in the in the
Duomo in Milan, This beautiful gift that no one was
listening to in the place, and yet the whole world
(04:47):
was listening to and it was so sad, and yet
it was so beautiful and it was and you and
you realize we're so alone because we're giving this gift
to each other and trying not to make each other
sick and die, and it's such a lovely thing to do.
We're so doing it out of love for each other.
At the same time it's so lonely. So just you
(05:08):
know how, I just cried like an idiot, and I
don't know. That made me think this is going to
end something, right, Let's give people some hope. Well, And
as you know, a lot of people are clinging to
the idea of sports being the thing that returns and
and returns their sanity. And it doesn't seem like certain
(05:28):
sports can return too soon. Golf is likely to be
one of the first. What do you make of this
idea of of golf returning and no fans or or
a PGA Tour event feeling like a corn ferry event
on a Thursday. Is this gonna be good for golf
or this this risky? Well, first of all, I am
(05:51):
so freaking for sports. I'm getting a facial tick. The
other day, I was walking the dog and there's two
these two kids there, maybe eight and nine, were throwing
the football in the alley, and I stopped to watch
them throw the football and didn't mean to. I'm like,
I like, I like the redhead footboard with him with
(06:11):
a nice tight spiral. Um. I wish the tall kid
would would catch with his with his hands more than
against the body. That's gonna And then then I realized
their mom was at me, and I'm like, I have
you know, it's really bad, Jeff, it's really getting bad.
And I can't bet, like you know, you know. It's
just so I really need sports back. So yes, bring
(06:34):
golf people like, oh, it wouldn't be the same without fans,
I don't care. Bring them back, and starting with golf
golf especially I don't know if you know what you
probably do. There was one day, uh in PGA Tour
history with no fans, and I think it was a
tournament of Congressional after a big windstorm and there were
big branches everywhere, and they played and they played and
(06:57):
the scores counted, and to me, it's gonna be fun.
It's gonna be fun to watch these guys play golf,
because there's not gonna be these freaking tiger fans who's
to put their chest in front of the ball to
keep his ball from going way over the green. And
when they hit it way the hell right into the
crazy stuff that you and I would have to gouge
(07:19):
it out of the spinach. That stuff is going to
be beat down with. It is no longer going to
be beat down with people's footprints. They're gonna actually have
to go outsideways right now. They go there and say, oh,
thank you. Same with what would you say, Jeff? Lost balls?
How many lost balls? How many balls are found purely
by fans and not the caddy. It's got to be
(07:42):
a lot of those are gonna stay lost, you know.
And and lastly, we all know the bailout shot. You know,
there's a there's a there's a green too, Part five.
You can go for it in two, but there's a
big lake left to the right of the green is
the grand stand. Oh, I'll just bail out right if
(08:03):
I have to, and I get a free drop, right.
We don't get that in regular golf, and with no fans,
no grandstand. So I think keeps right. I think they
are going to shoot maybe maybe one maybe one stroke
high or maybe stroke and a half. I think you're right,
they're gonna lose some balls now he he Uh. The headline,
(08:24):
of course when on that story was the guys are
gonna lose their balls, which didn't look great. But he
said it in a way when you when you heard
him lay it out, you understood it. However, when you
combine that with a couple of other comments lately, Rick,
when I'm starting to worry about Initially it was all
about to me. It was about testing and and and
(08:45):
and not looking tone deaf to what's going on in
the world. And and I'm confident that these commissioners believe,
at least for golf, they're gonna be able to test
everybody keep it limited. I think they have some irrational
thoughts on who's essential to being on pro pretty shot
link and nonsense like that. We we just want to
see golf. We don't care if it's the nineteen sixties
(09:05):
looking telecast where Dottie Peppers announcing from her from her
home in Saratoga. But Rick, as you saw when you
in the short time you were away from golf, I'm
pretty confident you saw a little bit of a change,
and one of those changes is they're in a bubble.
And this week we we had Scott Stallings say some
guys just may not play if they can't have ranks
(09:26):
and the buckers, and Adam Hadwin mentioned that the lack
of our being able to take the flagstick out of
the hole because he can't pump very well with the flagstick,
in which I understand, but bringing this up looked it
sounded ridiculous. And I do worry that we're gonna have
this bubble burst where some of these players who've been
in it are going to be exposed when they come
(09:47):
back and play in our whining after the round about
a lost Paul or a put they just couldn't couldn't
get a feel for because the flag stick was in
even better, even better. I love that kind of calm.
These guys are whining. People are getting moved out of
their house, they can't pay their mortgage, and they were
worried about, oh, I can't put. I don't want to
drop in a bunker out of a footprint. And by
(10:09):
the way, that would be a lovely call to give
me that. So you think of it as the columnist
you're still a columnist at heart. I love that. Yeah,
I know, I know. I every time I go out
with the dog, I take a pair of plastic, you know,
surgical rubber, surgical gloves. Why can't the caddies wear gloves? Yeah.
(10:29):
I don't get the problem with the flags that I
don't get the problem with with the rake. I mean, okay,
you don't want to you don't want to rake, that's fine,
just but you can't drop out of the bunker. You
gotta stay in the bunker. It's a hazard. And he
only that, Jeff, you hire, you hire a volunteer on
every green and just he runs, he runs the flag. Yeah, okay,
(10:50):
that's where I get concerned about the perception thing. So
there's eighteen more people on the property, and they're gonna
they're gonna have gloves on. They're gonna look like jeeves
when they come out and lift the flag and hold
it on you on a platter. It's just another one
of those things like whoa, we had to test that person,
but a nurse and in Detroit couldn't get a test,
and and and it just looks so ridiculous. Whereas I
(11:14):
think the people who are thinking about these things. Just that.
Just leave the damn flag in the in the cup
and don't be a baby. Okay, it's a perception thing.
Just deal with it. And we have rules now that
allow for it, as as you know the new rules.
And by the way, it was so hilarious to me
when people say, I can't believe NBA players can get
(11:36):
tested and and we we haven't been able to find
a test. Really, you're surprised NBA players get free stuff?
I mean, do you realize Kevin Durant has ten cars?
I mean, do you realize that you know, these guys
used to go through two hookers before every game. Are
you surprised that they get great stuff? Same with PGA Tour. Yeah,
(12:00):
they're gonna so sorry they get tested. That's life. And
by the way, you're never going to stop this thing.
You're unless you come to the vaccine or you're suddenly
able to get people to freeze in place, and then
the thing dies. So the question isn't what we're gonna
do if someone The question is what are you going
to do with the tour when someone tests positive? Because
(12:23):
I keep saying this, there has to be some turning
on of the spigot you've got to be able to
get to herd immunity, which we know is somewhere between
sixties six percent, and otherwise you're just sitting around for
a year and a half waiting for a vaccine. So
are you saying that if one, if if Scott Stallings
(12:44):
test positive or coronavirus, that's it, we're shutting down the
PGA tour. I think we've we've realized we can't do that.
We've the world has got to move on to where
we can test. Okay, you're positive, now we quarantine you. Okay,
We're definitely we're going to start opening restaurants and we're
(13:06):
gonna have a third capacity, and we're still going to
quarantine nursing home. It's just you're gonna have to get
the world back rolling again. I agree, and I think
that's why Jay Monahan came around from from where he
was to just saying, hey, we've got to have tests,
and if you have tests, I would also love to
see them ask people of a certain vintage maybe stay home,
(13:28):
uh for for the the upcoming months. But to your point,
to really get wonky. One of the problems that they
have with that idea of somebody testing positive. Uh, they
have decided, excuse me, to try to force the FedEx
Cup to be played this year with not much time
and the all of a mighty FedEx Cup, which not
(13:48):
one person who as those first events cares about. Um
that that player who who test positive and has to
sit out for a while, suddenly you know he's done
in the FedEx Cup and uh, and he's gonna be
mad and and it's not right. So they they they're
trying to do a little too much. I I hope
that part of it doesn't back as well. So hold on,
(14:12):
We're gonna take a quick break here on the Shack
Show and then talk to Rick about a few more things.
So Rick, let's talk about Italy. You mentioned it, you
(14:35):
spent some time there. You wrote a wonderful travelogue piece
for me that I hope you've now used for for
other people during the Ryder Cup when you were there
and it it made my trip. I can't thank you enough. Oh,
it was just unbelievable. Can I tell you I've shared
it with quite a few people because when I mentioned
your amazing travel advice, they said, can I can I
(14:57):
read it? I'm going there? And they did, and they
went to all the same rest staurants and and just
had a wonderful time. So thank you again so much
for that. UM have you well you know you're a
basketball guy, and I gave it to UM. This group
of people that were going that included Pat Riley and uh,
Pat just went crazy over some of those places. Can
(15:19):
you just tell about the place? Can you just tell
about the Cheese Wheel fund of the Cheese Wheel place. Yeah,
well I put it on Instagram that that alone. Just
putting that on Instagram, Uh, it just was. It just
had people going bonkers. And it's yeah, they served the
pasta and they toss it in the in the cheese wheel,
and and it just tastes did cheese Wheel. They bring
(15:41):
the cheese, giant cheese with the table, they heat it
from below, they carve out like a little of the
facto saucepan, and then the fresh pasta which they've made
in the window of the place. As you're walking in,
the ladies in there making the fresh pasta, throwing it
in the air, and then and then they heated in
the and then they poured onto your plate with a
(16:02):
few truffles, and you're just like, well, I'm never leaving
here just chained me to the radiator. And the truffles
actually taste like what you hear they're supposed to taste like,
versus the ones we have here that just seemed like
they don't there there, There isn't much there. You wonder
what what's going on? But anyway, well, well one quick
trouble story. So we live in Florence and we I
(16:24):
used to see this guy walking around with this briefcase
and it was a silver briefcase and he seemed like
a spy or something like. Yes, and it's the truffle guy.
And he goes from restaurant to restaurant and they're so expensive.
And I asked him and he said, said what are
you get in to day? And he said buff fifteen
(16:45):
thousand euro? Wow. So when was the last time you
were there? Well, we go every year in the fall,
but we trying desperate to go this year. We have
so many friends are just devastated. Man, I mean, I
don't know if it'll will ever be the same. What
what do you what? What what are people saying? I
(17:06):
mean is there are they just having the same questions
as we have here about dining out and life is
we know what kind of thing changing or are they well, yes,
it was just it was just more, it was worse.
It was that remember that terrible week in New York
where there was a refrigerated truck behind the Queen Gaspital
and they were storing bodies and and and that was.
(17:26):
That was every week for about three weeks there, and
they just like that. They couldn't see the end of it.
So now they're finally starting to get some good numbers
and and sort of coming out of the hole. But um,
they're gonna they have this new they have this new
slogan which is postpone your plans to come to Italy,
don't cancel because it's literally they're barely hanging on. So
(17:51):
we really want to go and encourage people to go.
They're going to be fine if if we don't just attend.
And then right, yeah, well good well, And I I
do hope the everything eventually gets back to normal to
travel and the Ryder Cup happens there in Ino or
twenty three whenever, whenever they figure out the whole schedule.
But um, so I wanted to talk a little bit
(18:15):
about your return. You were to golf, you were doing
some pieces for the athletic and it was a lot
of fun watching you try to deal with our our
current interview room set up, and then the way the
players are where they're convinced you're trying to um find
out something about them that is laurad and awful, and
(18:36):
when you're just trying to get a few anecdotes and tidbits.
What did you see just in a few years you
you stopped going to golf tournaments, a change in in
the way the players behave and think of media or
is it is it something I'm just perceiving. Yeah, absolutely
it was. It was like one time I was in
(18:58):
Eat East Berlin before the walls fell, and it was
starting to feel like that in that press room. I
mean I couldn't believe the limit and it reminded me
of tennis where you get, you know, seven questions and
then Federer walks away and you don't get to follow
him or go to his locker, and like, what's what's
going on here? Guys? We used to be able to
talk and you can still get it done, but my god,
(19:20):
that Ryder Cup it was impossible. I mean it was
always hard, but we could always we could get guys,
and we did come out of the room for us
and and you could ask, man, they just and of
course there was so much emotion going on, as always
because it's the greatest sporting event in the world. But
um yeah, it was like, you can't talk directly to me.
You've got to go through my pr guy or my
(19:42):
nutritionist or my sports psychologists or my chatty union guy
or whatever it is. So I thought I felt severely
disturbed by what was going on out there. And so
that's partly why, Hey, one year of that was enough.
You're gonna go back the books and movies, Jesus. But
(20:02):
I mean I did it. I did it so that
I could really um mind people for Trump stories from
my book and a commander and cheat and so many
people had stories that the paperback just came out. I
had to add an extra chapter because so many people
stopped me on the street. I had to roll up
(20:23):
my car windows. People, I got a story for you.
And they're not all bad. I mean, he's, as I've
always said, he's a lot of fun. It's not golf
when you play with him, I don't know what it is.
You're done in three and twenty minutes. You play through
three groups Um, he uh, he knows everybody. Yeah, the circle,
(20:45):
Yeah you dressed. Sometimes you drive on you drive on
te boxes. That's wild. There's no honors. He always hits
first jumps in his cart. And he's off with the
with the caddies and what was the guy named Tim Peel?
The caddy master at Bedminster called me and says that
I loved your book, but I got some stories. You
should have called me, like I never even heard yet.
(21:08):
So he goes up, do you know that we used
to have to buy two thousand bags of two thousand
four in extra long green teas for him? And I'm like,
so teas aren't illegal? He goes, well, they are when
they when the caddies have them in their pockets and
they tea him up in the rough, and I'm like, oh,
because I heard so many stories about what a good
(21:30):
player he does out of the rock, he goes just
because they're teeing it up. They're like, oh my god,
look like Bobby Jones. But maybe the best story was
a kind of funny. Um two thousand eight Trump, Westchester.
Trump is in a scramble and his scramble team is him,
(21:52):
Bill Clinton, Mike Bloomberg and Rudy Giuliani. It's the Joe
Tory Charity Emble, and so off they go in They're
playing at Trump's course, and despite the circle of friendship
being the size of a Winnebago with Trump, which is
always is, they don't finish anywhere near the league. They
(22:13):
finished like halfway down. And Trump comes in and he's mad,
and he finds this guy, Timothy O'Neill, who was running
the tournament, and uh. He says, hey, I want low
individual net today. Give me the trophy in terms like
why it's a it's a scramble. No, I want low
individual net. Give me the trophy. And Tim is like,
(22:36):
but there is no trophy for that because it's a
team event. There's no give me the trophy. I'm leaving
in twenty minutes. So he doesn't know what to do.
He's gonna lose the course. He found his but one
of his staff members, a woman, goes in the women's bathroom,
finds finds a vase with flowers in it, yanks the
flowers out, throws them away, dumps the water, hands it
(22:59):
to O'Neill. Oh you look, it takes the flower base
up to the podium and says, and now are low
individual net winner of the day Donald Trump. And Trump
comes to the podium and Clinton and Julianne and Bloomberg
are like, what the hell low individual what? And Kim's
like the best The best part of it was he
(23:20):
gave a twelve minute speech about how he diet it. Oh, anyway,
so well, I don't want to I don't want to
spoil too many of the stories from the book, but
there are proceeds from the book going to where is
it feeding Feeding American American dot org? What is that
a dollar per paperback? It's I mean, I was driving
(23:44):
by in downtown l A. And saw a line that
must have been three blocks long, and it was the
food bank. People are starving. So this is one little
thing we can do. And anyway, the book is not
especially political. It's more fun. And um, I've had both
Trump lovers and Trump haters say they loved it. But
(24:06):
then the Trump haters always say the same thing, Yeah
Clinton cheated, he cheated too, And I'm like, yeah, he
did cheat because I played with him as president, I said,
But it's kind of like the guy that goes in
the bank and steals the pen versus the guy that
goes and steals the fault like went would take these
things called Billigan's where he hit a he hit a
shot and then and then he'd hit six more from
(24:30):
that place. But he played the first Paul. But then
sometimes you couldn't remember which was the first ball, and
the Secret Services say, all, Mr President, I think it's
the one on the green right here, because every Secret
Service guy, when he's done, wants to be ambassador to Sweden.
And in that way, he shot eighty two that day,
which was the best day of his life. Do you
get a lot of hate mail or angry stuff regarding
(24:54):
your tweeting, your appearances, anything talking about the book? Or
do people just leave you alone? Oh? Yes, yes, I mean,
but you know, Mark Cuban taught me something I mean
not to drop, but he said, I said, you know,
I like to tweet, and it's fun to give my opinion,
but I can't stand uh, all the people, the haters
(25:14):
on the note you know, and the you know that,
the messages, the replies underneath right the notification. He goes,
why do you read them? Like? I don't know. I
thought you were supposed to. He goes, let me ask
you this. You leave your Do you leave your front
door open so someone can come into a baseball bat
and hit you in the head. No, you lock the door.
So give your opinions and don't read what people say
(25:37):
about those opinions. And ever since then, Twitter and Facebook
and all that stuff has been a joy because Charles
Barkley told me once, you know, you could change your
opinion and all those people that hated you before would
now love you. But all the people who loved you
before would now hate you. But what's the difference? Yeah,
I always thought that was smart. Now, um, I want
to cover a few writing related things, but but one
(25:59):
of somewhat similar to what you're doing with the book
proceeds here, but on a grander scale, an unbelievable scale.
It was in two thousand six she wrote a column
for s I and it was about, um, well, if
you don't mind just telling us and reminding us about
nothing but nets and what that's done, if you don't
(26:22):
mind humble breaking, because I think it's people forget as
you know very quickly, you're very kind, uh, and sports
fans are the greatest people in the world. And I'll
tell you why because on May six, two six, um,
I was in Venice and it was with my daughter,
and she was sixteen years old, and she had shopped
my legs off and I couldn't do it anymore, and
(26:43):
I said, I gotta go back to the room. So
she keeps shopping. I see a BBC documentary where the
guy goes, did you know three thousand kids a day
are dying simply because of malaria? Simply because they don't
sleep under a bednet. If they would just sleep under
the bednet this ms heto that that transmits millaria only
comes out between midnight and four and they wouldn't die.
(27:06):
And especially before under six years old, they are almost
certain to die. They get it, And I'm like, come on,
sports fans, we love nets, right, we love jumping over
tennis nets and cutting down basketball nets and a net
in our front yard for your kids to play lacrosse,
and new jersey nets and girls and fish nets. And
(27:27):
I don't know everything, so I said, send me ten bucks.
I called the United Nations Foundation. Could I could I
have a little square of your page. I want people
to send money to raise money for nets And they said, okay,
what do you want to call it? I said, nothing
but nets and and the first week we raised over
a hundred grand. Jeff, we've just passed seventy million dollars.
(27:51):
We put up ten million nets. It's still going strong. Um.
Trump has kind of hurt us with that drug. I
can't even pronounce rock floric. We need that for malaria,
especially in South America. UM, sometimes people do get bit
and that helps us. I don't know that it really
helps with this. Maybe it does, but we're running out
(28:13):
that really good. But it's been mostly sports fan and
in ten bucks, Um, they say they save a life.
Don't buy the Britney Spears c D and a twenty
bucks you save your life and the two people and
so it's support takes forty one seconds. I'm nothing but
nets dot net and as I say, I'm trying to
(28:34):
get Maria Sharapova to help us. And so let's say why.
And I said, look, every time you get hit on
by a guy, and don't go without with the Russian
famous Russian tennis star. Every time you turn a guy down,
you you know, you send us a grant goes why
nothing but nyet and I think that would be great.
I haven't been able to get to her. Yeah, I mean, well, season.
(28:55):
She lives in Brentwood, so I'll let you know if reopens.
I seen her and she is legitimately tall. Um. But
thanks for bringing that up because it's an incredible story.
By the way, the website has a forty seven million,
so let's let's get that updated. Talk to your, Talk
to yours, and let's update the joke. Rick, it's it's
it's one month of Spotify for the kids out there
(29:16):
listening just you know, nobody, But actually it's funny. Nobody
buy CDs anymore. I'm actually getting back into both vinyl
and my CDs because the audio quality is better, and
I just I just enjoy opening them up and and
touching and maybe looking at lyrics and all that stuff,
seeing who played the bass, and really important thing. Neil
(29:39):
Young is on this kick. He says that, yes, of
the sound is gone from the days of of analog. Right,
we've got to get because he says, it's it's like
a lost treasure if we if we lose vinyl, will
never get down. And I haven't set up now in
my office with some speakers, and it is stunning the
(30:01):
things you do here. I finally have it right, and
the things you hear even c D versus an MP three.
It's it's it's uh incredibly I know he's tried that
different audio format. And uh, but speaking of that now,
the other medium that we love, that is I believe
really making a comeback. We'll see how how book sales
are at some point, but the physical book I think
(30:24):
is still precious to a lot of people from from
what I since uh you mentioned in that Washington Post
column you've been doing some some reading. You mentioned, uh Woodhouse,
what are the the are who are the people that
you still enjoy cracking open a book and reading a
little of and and and who are the people who
(30:46):
who got you and helped you devote develop your voice
the way you did as a writer. Oh, I know
it's a long list, but but who are the ones
that ever read? Was Jim Murray? Well, of course da
camera And I'm like, what the heck is this? This
is the most fun fast quick you know, John Wooden
(31:06):
square as a pan of fudge and gentlemen start your
coffins and uh, you know, boom pal is the approximate
size of the Chicago Hilt and and just like what
is this? And it was fantastic and then I had
the great luck stroke of luck to get hired at
the l a times when he was there, and he
became my friend and mentor, and he told me a
(31:27):
great piece of advice. He's a kid. There's no loss,
as they says, they got to read you. Make it fun,
make it interesting. He says, Yeah, you can have a
great first paragraph, but what are you gonna do when
it's like the guy in front of the circus tent.
He can get him in the circus, but the circus
better be good. They get good all the way through.
And and that really helped me. So Oscar Oscar Wilde
(31:49):
also is one of my favorites. I've been rereading him,
and he's the guy that said, never write a stons
you've already read, which is such a typical Oscar wild
thing to say. But it really matters because if you
can sit there and take out your like if you
really honestly go through your copy and go, I know
I've seen this sentence before. That's kind of a cliche,
and take that out like money used to murray, used
(32:13):
to punch up dragnet scripts. I don't know if you
know this. There was no detective show called dragnets. Yeah,
and he used to punch him up until the big
guy would be like, hey, hey Joe, you really beat
the crap out of that guy. And Murray would change
it too, Hey Joe, while you turn the guy into
six ft of lumps. He looks like a science fiction story.
(32:33):
What is that? You know? And it was just that
kind of stuff. So the pay as Damon Runyan said,
that's the other guy I've been rereading. Damon Runyan said,
you gotta write sentences that jump off the page and
squirt the reader in the eye with grapefruit juice. And
it's like, yes, yes, you want, you want word pictures
and and and I've been rereading a lot of Twain.
(32:54):
And he said, you know, I get paid by the word.
Why should I type out municipality when I can say count?
It's so true, you know, you can just you can
just make it like a guy talking over a back
fence to you, only he's the funniest, clearest, and most
entertaining guy you've ever met. That's what writing should be.
(33:14):
So I've been rereading p. G. Woodhouse. I think I've
read Paul four now twenty times. I read read that
because that made me want to be a sportswriter. Graham
Green Hemingway. I mean, I'm just I mean a lot
of ways this is terrible, but a lot of this
has been really interesting, you know, sort of discovering stuff
(33:38):
that you've forgotten. Yeah, no, I think that's what a
lot of people have since. But it's also hard to
to do it, I find because you get a little
bit distracted or you feel guilty why am I doing
this or shouldn't I be following something on the news,
And but you have to do it, um and and
it's just so much better when it's it's it's a
printed book as opposed to a kindle, And there's just
(34:00):
something about popping in, popping out, just getting a uh,
just a feel. I mean, Murray, I I do that
all the time. And it's um, he's just one of
a kind. You you channel him so much in so
many ways. The thing that I loved about your most
recent colm and reminded me of and I don't when
you haven't been doing it a while, you just it's
so tight you you don't waste words. As you just described.
(34:23):
Is that something Is that a skill that when you
haven't done in a while, is tough. Yeah, No, it's
just like it's it's like I always thought, if I
was in prison um for ten years and I came
out to play golf, I'd be really good at every
pot within ten feet because I could have put it
in myself, right, Yeah, but terrible. I wouldn't know what
to do with the twenty ft put right because but
(34:46):
and that's the same I grew up uh at the
Denver Pup Boulder, caam opposed times s I where you
only had so much room. It was I had eight
hundred and fifty words tops on that back page column
and there's no changing. You don't suddenly like it's like
a dog with an electric fence and the owner guy
(35:07):
and now the electric fences down, but he still won't
leave the yard because he's just I just can't go
any farther further. And I once had a conversation with
Bill Simmons, who's you know, he's a legend, but in
a whole different way because he just goes on and
on and on. He grew up, he came up in
(35:27):
the space is infinite, and I'm like, Bill, this was
really good, except you did ten thousand words on why
Kevin Garnett should be the m v P. I mean, really,
ten thousands. I said, you're you're such a good writer,
but you need a bus load of editors. He was no, no,
he goes, I like to write stream of consciousness, my fan,
And I said, but nobody has time for ten thousand words.
(35:47):
It's a problem, and he said no, my readers skimmed me.
And I'm like, Bill, I don't think anyway ever wanted
to be skimmed. But I mean it isn't so, you know,
you and I sitting here going, oh, it's not the
same not holding a book in your in your hands.
But in forty years, people who grew up on kindles
and reading up their phones are going to say, two
(36:10):
young people, I don't like I don't like it when
the book is on your contact lenses and you blink
to change pages. I miss having a phone in my hand.
You know what I mean? We just said when we
talk about about hardcover books. Yeah, but but it is
fun to see I we obsess about data in our world,
but it is nice that they're one. There's data. The
(36:32):
only nice thing about modern internet writing is that there
is data telling people that at a certain number of words,
people are not really continuing to read. They can, they
can just they can figure that out. And then there's
plenty of data telling us that that the books hit
a peek and now we're coming back to print a
little bit more. And people do cherish. So sometimes the
(36:53):
numbers people are able to help the cause. And there
is just something different about the written word in either
a magazine or book that I love. Um speaking of
dada though, I always say that to young writers when
they asked for advice me. I try never to put
a number in my column. Numbers, just the people's eyes numbers.
(37:13):
I hate stats and oh, you know in non majors
on Thursdays, He's right, No one cares. Tell me about
him and his caddie and his wife and how his
dad hated the game. Give me stories. I hate the numbers.
Why I think I think NFL and Alice analyzing is
so bad because they just want to do numbers and
(37:34):
roll up zones in the double time and tell me
about the guy and his kids and how he almost,
you know, quit the game. And as much as you
want to talk about Howard goes Cell was full of
it and he was mean, He wasn't mean it's probably
the meanest person I ever met. He was able to
tell stories. He was like, what a moment for this
(37:55):
man who was the two years ago was sitting in
a jail cell, you know whatever. He told stories and
we and for some reason, Troy Aikman and people like
that don't seem to want to tell stories. They just
want to They just want to talk about numbers and technique,
which I think the average guy doesn't care about. Yeah,
well that's business related, and unfortunately golf is going to
(38:16):
keep going in that direction because of gambling and shot link,
which is wonderful, but as you know, golf is a
different sport with numbers. Just because you don't know who
woke up on the wrong side of the bed or
whose wife yelled at him before he left the hotel room. Right,
shot link doesn't account for those kinds of things. And
no sport does that impact you more than golf because
(38:38):
you're alone, you're you're on your own, you're playing by yourself,
it's just you and your caddy, and and your mind
is is so in control of so many things you do.
But at the same time they're fun. But yeah, I
understand your point. Sorry, but it reminds you of. For
my book Who's Your Caddy, I spent a week caddying
on the LPGA tour and I had a woman named
(38:59):
Jill McGill who's regular caddy was her living boyfriend, and
so he was still there too, And I'm like, what's
that like, I mean, you're kind of working for her,
but you're also living together and you're on the road together.
And he goes, well, it's kind of hard, and like, well,
what do you mean? He goes, well, like some days
we'll have a fight, like in the morning at breakfast,
(39:20):
and we'll be out there and we're not talking in
about the seventh hole. She'll say, well, what club do
you think it is? And I'll say five iron and
she'll go five iron. I don't even know who you
are anymore. My god, crying, Oh my god, jeez. It's
a bad mix. That is a tough, tough And there's
still a few of those couples out there, not many,
(39:41):
though they've got there. There there are a couple or
or they they caddy for another player. Now some of
them have gotten wise to that. So that's that's a
good idea. Another book I wanted to ask you about
Missing Links one of my very very favorite books. It
says on your website that it was optioned. Is that correct?
Does it ever have a chance of being made into
(40:02):
a film? Say so, we can have a golf movie
that is watchable. Uh okay? Missing Links with about four
guys playing the worst golf course in America, which happened
to be the course next to the fancy course where
they hold the US Opens and stuff. And when the
US Open rider cups come, they park they parked the
cars on this crappy course and they really resent that.
(40:25):
And then they find a hole in the hedge between
the two courses and make a bet who can get
on there and play eighteen hole? And of course they
sell each other out. It's it's all just it's supposed
to be fun, but it's also a little bit about friendship.
So anyway, now, and it was atn option. It's been
options seven times seven times, and and it was a
(40:48):
we got one time. It was how does that even happen? Wait?
Wait wait wait, how does that even happen? How? How
is the book? What does it expire? The option that's
you're not all months and you get it back, so
eighteen months it came out I think in nineties seven
and right away, Um, they've got optioned, uh for a
(41:10):
TV show on ABC. So they go start filming the
TV show and I get to the set and here's
there's a golf course which I just dreamed up in
my head with like a planted Chevy to the seven
Chevy right in front of the third te and a
dog leg part three and ridiculous stuff. But it's right
there in front of me. Was like walking around inside
(41:31):
of your imagination. And and then I said, okay, who
wrote it? And they said, well, this guy Kevin Wade
and that's all, yeah, just him. So I meet Kevin Wade.
He's never played golf, so he had the guys saying
stuff like what JA card today? Text and you know,
using pink teas and it was just a disaster. So
then it got bought by for a movie by Mel Gibson. Um,
(41:57):
I think Clooney bought at ray Leota and uh, the
Light of the Latest was two times ago. It was
Steve Correll who loves golf and he was gonna do
it filming on a Brockton, Massachusetts course where he grew up.
And every time something, as I say, nine seven point
three percent of Hollywood is he is the word no.
So so we've now seven times. Right now another guy's
(42:21):
got it, and he's trying to get the Murray's involved,
and I hope they are, but you just have to go, well,
it was a really fun book. It's still a fun
book if it's never a movie, what can we do?
I wonder why? And now I know why why golf
movies are generally not good or don't get made. And
and you've probably touched on the real reason that they
(42:41):
end up butchery. But as you know, there's so many
people in Hollywood who played golf, love golf, no golf,
and then they somehow can't seem to get it to
translate in a fun way on the screen. Except really Caddyshack.
I can tell you why. One reason is so I
hear about it all the time. You know, I belonged
(43:01):
to a country club and there's a lot of meat missing.
Lene is my favorite. Hey, what ever happened? Could we option? Fine? Option?
You know, and you get your twenty grand for eighteen
months or grand or whatever. And the problem is the
producers all think, well, I'm not going to do another
caddy Shack. Because it won't be as good. Like it's
(43:22):
not a caddyshack. It's a story about friendship. It's swingers
for golf number swingers. That's what it is. You're entering
that world of golf and gamblers, guys who take the
bus to get to the golf course and you know,
bet money they don't have and all that sort of stuff,
and so, but they're hung up on caddy shack and
then they either want to make another caddy shack, which
(43:43):
is a bad idea, or they're afraid of caddy shack,
which is also a bad idea, or they try to
mimic Tin Cup, which was fine, but I mean, it's
it's its own beast. And but I was I was
heartened by the making of Harriet Tubman's to Sor, which
sat around Hollywood for thirty five years. So we're only
(44:05):
twenty three years, so we got some years ago. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well,
I hope it happens. I love the book, and I
love all your writing, and uh, I can't wait to
see what you have next and what you're cooking up.
And thank you so much for your time today. If
I don't get golf back pretty soon, I might have
(44:25):
to take up tennis. I don't know what to do.
I can't do that, but you know what I mean.
Thanks Rick, Hey, Thanks Jeff okay, Hey quick break here,
let's hear from our sponsors. I hope you enjoyed that
(44:47):
chat with Rick Um. A lot of fun. Always enjoyable
in the areas thoughts. I think he's one of the
great talents and the history of sports writing, and it's
an honor to have him on the show. I will
put together show notes with information on nothing but nets
that's just staggering. Seventy million dollars raised. Uh started with
a column and s I just incredible anyway, and the
(45:07):
new book I will link to bookshop dot org. As
I think I've mentioned on a few other podcasts where
we've talked to authors and I got more authors coming
great way to help support local bookshops. During this time,
they've raised now one point one million dollars. They discount
the books. They're distributed by Ingram. They get them from there,
which is the main distributor. And Rick's book, their Commander
in Cheap, is in paperback now as I believe Missing
(45:30):
Links is also available. There's still in print. I'll double
check on that, but anyway, check out the show notes.
I'll link some of the other things we chatted about,
and I'll be back very soon with another author I'm
looking forward to talking to and I think you'll enjoy
as well here on The Shack Show. And once again,
as I always, thank you to the show's producer, Tim Paratka,
and to all the good people at my Heart Radio,
(45:52):
because The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
And remember for more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio up Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Talk to you soon, m HM.
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